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In my opinion there is somewhat of a double standard here regarding OC. The standard advice for a WH with an OC is no contact, but yet I have not yet seen anyone recommend no contact to a WW with an OC. Why is that?

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It's probably a double standard, but so what? Women bond in utero with their child and that is something nearly impossible to break. Men aren't usually in touch with the child let alone the idea of the child until it is born and it is real to him. Sadly, kids need their Moms somewhat more than they need Dads...not that Dads are dispensible, because they are not.

I guess it is just the way it is.

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Of course there's a double standard!

The mother who carries, gives birth and possibly nurses said child obviously has a special relationship with that child that can not and should not be ignored. Why pretent otherwise?

SOME on this board recommend no-contact, but other don't. If you look around, there ARE some fathers(and their wives) w/contact also on this board (even raising the OC!) and that's fine too.

The board is for all who are rebuilding post-affair--the focus is saving the marriage! , and often that means avoiding the XOW and OC. In the other case, saving the marriage often means the husband of a ww must accept the OC, because few women give up their biological child.

J
in recovery 5y; no more contact w/OC due to her crazy mother
(catnip--didn't see your reply first)

<small>[ December 06, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> It's probably a double standard, but so what? Women bond in utero with their child and that is something nearly impossible to break. Men aren't usually in touch with the child let alone the idea of the child until it is born and it is real to him. Sadly, kids need their Moms somewhat more than they need Dads...not that Dads are dispensible, because they are not.

I guess it is just the way it is. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a father I take offense to what you said. Sorry, but I have met my share of mothers who have no business raising a child. Giving birth to a baby no more entitles you to a special bond with a child than when a man simply is a sperm donor (as many here have referred to the OM).

There is an incredible double standard. It's not fair to ask a man to forgo his child any more than it is to ask a woman to forgo hers. But, if it's fair for a W to insist on NC with an OC and OW, then it's perfectly fair for an H to insist on NC with an OC and OM.
Michael

<small>[ December 06, 2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

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Dallas, I think your opinion is unrealistic.

We all know some crummy parents, biology is no "guarentee" of a bond, nor are the bioparents always the best parents! However I'm going to bet that 80+% of the time, a woman pushed to chose between her newborn and a man will chose the baby! The husband of a wanderingwife is faced w/that, but can usually raise the child w/out seeing the XOM.

If a wMM must chose between OC and his marriage, he often loses closeness with the children of the marriage as well as his wife, respect, money, etc.... and he STILL may not see much of the OC because he ISN'T the custodial parent! If the XOW/mother is unreasonable and poisons the relationship (between OC and father or between husband and wife), it often isn't worth trying for the father. AND contact w/OC means MORE contact w/XOW.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

<small>[ December 06, 2003, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

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This is my point of view.

My H chose contact with his OC without my agreeement. He secretly visited the child and when I found out, he still did it, lying through his teeth all the time. He claimed he was over OW and just wanted to be a father to the child.

Impossible. He continued to talk with OW, see OW, and meet with OW. She was only too happy to accomodate him. And why not?For I viewed what he was doing as turning away from his marriage, his obligation to me and our family, and our children.THE OW, on the other hand, had everything to gain-a person who economically helped support OC and a man she still loves who she has helped leave his marriage and is all too willing to be available under any circumstances for herself and OC. Despite him staying with me for years after A was allegedly over, she still loves him and who knows how he feels about her.

As for me, My H doesn't love me because I set limits on his behavior.Because his and OW';s choices have ruined my kids
lives.Have destroyed our family. He is a very part time dad to our kids, where once he was a full time one, and still an even more part time dad to OC.And this is good?

I am sorry. I don't see how this helps anyone but alleviates guild for my H's A and guilt for creating a child out of wedlock while married to someone else. My children, who too are innocent, are suffering, and do you think OW cares? hardly.She just sees me as a witch who is trying to manipulate my H.And that is so true.When who better manipulates the WS than the OW?>

It just doesnt' work, this contact with OC but no contact with OW, because as life goes on there will always be a connection to the oW.And that is why I am headed for divorce. it is a rotten circumstance for all, but I think the BS and BS;s children get a raw deal.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by XRay:
In my opinion there is somewhat of a double standard here regarding OC. The standard advice for a WH with an OC is no contact, but yet I have not yet seen anyone recommend no contact to a WW with an OC. Why is that?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear "junior member".

There is NO "standard advice" about contact. You are mis-informed.

Have you read what Harley says about this OC contact situation? Go back to the main page and read the concepts.

This is Marriage Builders .... and C or NC is reached by MUTUAL AGREEMENT by the married couple.

However, sometimes C is maintained despite the married couple's desire for NC. If WW is the one to give birth to the OC and she stays in her M, sometimes the courts force visitation on the WW and her BH, because the OM went for CS and visitation.

I think NC is better for everyone when the OC already has 2 loving parents to raise him/her.

Are you a follower of MB concepts? Or, are you simply stating a random false observation without knowing the facts?

Pep

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Ok, standard advice was a poor choice of words. But, the typical advice I read here on the forum, from forum members, is for the WH to have no contact with the OC, while I have not yet read anyone say the WW should have no contact with the OC.

By the way, giving up the OC is a deal breaker for me. But, I agree that whatever solution a couple comes up with, it should be by mutual agreement.

<small>[ December 07, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: XRay ]</small>

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by XRay:
Ok, standard advice was a poor choice of words. But, the typical advice I read here on the forum, from forum members, is for the WH to have no contact with the OC,

Typical advice is that until the marriage is stabilized, NC is too painful and disruptive, and will likely lead to deterioriation of the marriage.

Marriage rebuilding first.

Then ***mutual agreement*** about NC or no NC.

Again, you are mis-informed. What works for the individual marriage varies.

Both spouses must be in agreement.

Pep

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XRay,

I fully agree with you that contact or no contact must be by mutual agreement. What each person on this board is supposed to be portraying is their personal point of view. However, it sometimes comes off as some type of mandate rather than a personal opinion.

From time to time, I keep trying to remind newbies that contact does work in some circumstances just like it will not work in other. They should be guided by the feelings of each other (husband and wife) when making their decision -- not the experiences of individuals on this board.

Would you elaborate on what you meant by you consider no contact with OC a deal breaker? I did not understand what you meant.

Thanks,
heavenly

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by heavenlybody26:
<strong> XRay,

Would you elaborate on what you meant by you consider no contact with OC a deal breaker? I did not understand what you meant.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, I said "giving up" the OC is a deal breaker. My W is pregnant by her OM. I am willing to try and make our M work, but I will not raise another mans child and I will not support her during the pregnancy. She can get an abortion, or go away til the baby is born and she can give it up for adoption. Either way, she has to choose, me or the baby. But, I cannot agree to raise that child. So, we cannot have mutual agreement on keeping the baby.

<small>[ December 07, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: XRay ]</small>

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When I was pregnant with Xmm child, H gave me that ultimatium. Either him or the child. Told me to abort. I showed him where the door is. My H isn't that great of a person in the first place. I made a mistake and had an affair. I lowered my moral values and wasn't about to go further by haveing an abortion.

Today, almost 3yrs after I found out about the pregnancy, H treats the oc like his own son and loves him like the rest of the children.

All in all, I would have left H and would have raised all my children without H around and without Xmm around.

<small>[ December 07, 2003, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

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I'm a long time lurker I don't post. I remember reading about a BS who H had visitation with OC then comes OC #2. I searched high and low for this post. I do understand NC. I'm a BS no OC. My heart goes out to the BS who have been devastated by these unwanted circumstances.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I was pregnant with Xmm child, H gave me that ultimatium. Either him or the child. Told me to abort. I showed him where the door is. My H isn't that great of a person in the first place. I made a mistake and had an affair. I lowered my moral values and wasn't about to go further by haveing an abortion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


Crazymum: were you using MB principals POV?

Xray:I feel if a UH has to choose NC, I believe WW
also should choose NC if BH doesn't want to raise OM child. I believe BH should have the same options as BW.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=003062#000000

<small>[ December 07, 2003, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Lurker007 ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong> We all know some crummy parents, biology is no "guarentee" of a bond, nor are the bioparents always the best parents! However I'm going to bet that 80+% of the time, a woman pushed to chose between her newborn and a man will chose the baby! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jenny, I would agree. Probably 80% of WW would choose her child over her H. With men, it is probably just the opposite, only 20% would choose their child over their W. However, you discount the fact that there are men out there who could no more abandon their child than an average woman.

I think the double standard exists because MB certainly appears to make accomodations for the fact that most women could not give up their child, while not appearing to make accommodations for the fact that there are indeed men who cannot abandon their child.

I have to agree on one thing, it would probably be too much to ask for a WW to give up her child to make the M work. I just happen to think it is also too much to ask for a WH to give up his child. I understand the NC issues, but again, in cases where the OM knows about the OC, it is very common for the BH to have to put up with some minimal contact with OM as part of keeping the M together. It is far less common for a BW to put up with minimal contact with OW as part of keeping the M together.

The double standard exists because of the vastly different emotional makeup of men vs women, with your average man being perfectly willing to give up their OC. But it is still a double standard.

For the record, I am a man who would never, ever, give up contact with my child, no matter how he or she came into this world. All I am saying is, if you accept that a woman could not give up contact with her child, you have to accept if a man wants contact with his child.

Michael

<small>[ December 07, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MichaelinDallas:
Probably 80% of WW would choose her child over her H. With men, it is probably just the opposite, only 20% would choose their child over their W. However, you discount the fact that there are men out there who could no more abandon their child than an average woman.

I think the double standard exists because MB certainly appears to make accomodations for the fact that most women could not give up their child, while not appearing to make accommodations for the fact that there are indeed men who cannot abandon their child.

I have to agree on one thing, it would probably be too much to ask for a WW to give up her child to make the M work. I just happen to think it is also too much to ask for a WH to give up his child. I understand the NC issues, but again, in cases where the OM knows about the OC, it is very common for the BH to have to put up with some minimal contact with OM as part of keeping the M together. It is far less common for a BW to put up with minimal contact with OW as part of keeping the M together.

The double standard exists because of the vastly different emotional makeup of men vs women, with your average man being perfectly willing to give up their OC. But it is still a double standard.

For the record, I am a man who would never, ever, give up contact with my child, no matter how he or she came into this world. All I am saying is, if you accept that a woman could not give up contact with her child, you have to accept if a man wants contact with his child.

Michael [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is a double standard because that is how "society" has allowed "society" to view men in regards to being a parent...DISPOSABLE. If you happen to get involved in a messy situation like this, the first thing that happens, as a man, is that you are responsible for CS, "first and foremost". You go to court and you are getting sued for CS, not sued to be a father! They want your money first and you are forced to pay but spending time w/ OC (or any child for that matter) is OPTIONAL but paying CS is NOT. There is a double standard because males have no choice in supporting a child that is produced from their sperm. Women on the other hand, can choose, completely on her own, whether to abort or not, whether to financially suppport her child or not. This has been addressed in another thread already.

And if you are the mother of OC and were the WS, it is different because OC will automatically (excluding a female who has been determined to be an unfit parent) live w/ you and female will automatically get "custody", while the father of OC, married or not, will only get "visitation" and has to fight for "custody".

It is VERY common for BS to allow C w/ OC born from their H sperm. Read some more around here and you will find many BS who have gone out of their way to promote and encourage H relationship w/ OC, many at the expense of thier own feelings and BC feelings. Some don't advocate this (like me)because of all the heartache and pain it has (or know it can/will cause) caused their marriage and families plus the complication of an uncooperative OW. (we have generous C w/ OC and I advise others to go NC)

Yes, at the time (my H says) it was an EASY decision to make....OW & OC or wife & kid???....He said when faced w/ the choice (by OW not me, when she found out she was pg.) he knew in a "split second" what he wanted and his first thought was that he didn't want to give up what he KNEW for something or someone he really didn't even know, much less for a child he didn't even know. I know it sounds cruel but that's the reality of marriage vs. A.

And it is very easy to say what you would or would not do ..... until .... you are actually forced to make a decision in that situation.

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well, the relevant part is zero contact with the former affair partner. It seems to be more frequent that the WW brings the OC into an intact marriage with their BH and maintains NC with the male affair partner than the WH brings the OC into an intact marriage with the BW and maintains no contact with the female affair partner.

Either was is of course pretty darn hard on the betrayed spouse.

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Originally Posted by ivy45
well, the relevant part is zero contact with the former affair partner. It seems to be more frequent that the WW brings the OC into an intact marriage with their BH and maintains NC with the male affair partner than the WH brings the OC into an intact marriage with the BW and maintains no contact with the female affair partner.

Either was is of course pretty darn hard on the betrayed spouse.

Agree. And it makes it impossible to recover the marriage, which makes it more likely there will be a divorce. A divorce hurts everyone, the children of the marriage and the OC. A marriage that is harmed in such a devastating way can't endure continued contact with the affair partner. It is even more important in situations where there is an OC to observe strict no contact.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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FYI ....

this thread is from 2003

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LOL!
I wondered if anyone was going to notice that smile

Thanks Pep!


Me BS
D Day 4-2-2005
OC born 12-2004
DS 21, DS 12
Married 1993

May the love hidden deep inside your heart find the love waiting in your dreams. May the laughter that you find in your tomorrow wipe away the pain you find in your yesterdays.

Recovering....it's a long road, even with a dedicated FWH
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