lynn & others,,,,,,, let me start by saying that i don't mean this to be disrespectful in any way and i am not trying to berate or say that the choices you and your h made were wrong in any way. i respect the fact that the 2 of you were able to keep your family intact and repair your marriage in the best way possible for yourselves.

my question is how old were your c's when your h had his A and resulting oc?

the reason i am asking is that you made a comment on the xray thread about your c's being humiliated by the fact that there was an oc.

i don't understand why they would carry your h's humiliation of his A. in our situation here there are 10 c's involved from the 2 families (7 ours and 3 om's). now i can only speak from experience for my kids but as far as i can see they show no signs of humiliation when interacting or when people ask them how many siblings they have. in fact when someone asks me how many children i have or how old is my youngest in the presence of one of my bio kids and i reply 8. they will correct me immediately and say grace is almost 2. so i have learned to include her in my conversations as if she were just part of our personal school disrict.

and as far as i can tell about om's kids they can't wait to get grace on their visitations. they show no signs of feeling humiliated or embarrassment about their fathers A and resulting oc.

from what i see with these 10 kids they all love grace and are proud to call her their sister. if they have any humiliation about their parents A they don't show it in what i see.

I have to agree with you Pops on that. Our oldest was 6 when the first two OC were born. Withmy OC, I gues it came as natural for them. But even know when one of there friends ask why the kids call Xmm papa they tell them the truth, he's there bio dad. As for H oc, they barley see him, but when someone ask how many is in the family, my oldest will proudly say she has three brothers, just that the one doesn't live with us.

And to make things clear, my kids do know that what dad and mom was wrong. They know that mom has suffered from her mistake also. But they love their siblings. They know its not there fault.

The only thing I can answer is this---

OC and my h's and my first daughter are literally two weeks apart. They are not twins.
I was married to him long, way long before OC popped up into our lives.

If we've recovered and moved on with the affair and had Mr."T" chosen contact, I'd forever be doing one of two things---

1. explaining where OC came from
2. explaining that I'm not the reason that I busted up OC's "mom and dad's marriage" as some people would assume.

My 8 year old daughter knows about it in an age appropriate way. She does not blame the OC, but she said that she sure didn't want OC around. I asked her why? She said that OC doesn't belong to us, she belonged to her mother. I never said a word to her about it. I told her people make different choices and some are bad ones.

She was angry more at Daddy for a while. I can't wait to tell Mini-me, Bubba and Lee-Lee about their half-sib...if I get this reaction from someone who isn't even related to the OC...Lord knows, I'll need to tell them in a counseling session.

I can just imagine people asking why Mini-me and OC are two weeks apart and have the same last name....it just gets old...and "Mind your own business" doesn't always work. So I can see how down the road, it can get old for the children of my marriage...and I'm just speaking from my perspective. There are many other reasons why we have chosen NC and now we are moving because of one of them...the crazy ex-ow.

Twiisty

twisty,,,,,, i only have a second or the way i type 30 minutes. i will respond more to your post later when i have several hours to hunt and peck on this keyboard.

i just wanted to say to you and anyone else that cares to respond to this thread that it is not in any way intended to be a battle over contact vs nc. i have no problem with which ever path a couple chooses to go on that issue. whatever works best for them.

For us pops, our son was a few weeks shy of turning 18. His humilation stemmed from what his Dad had done to Mom and I guess oc just represented that.

Then when ow tried to use our sur-name it caused further anger and future humiliation to our son. At that time we all belonged to the same parish and church school. Where as some of my son's former teachers or friends may not have known, using our name would let them know! Ow uses her married name though for oc.

I think when you have oc in the home it may or may not cause embarrassment, as most strangers won't question if oc is yours and wifes, you know?

Heck, we are old enough to be oc's grandparents <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Also my son did not want to share a Dad with oc. He honestly doesn't dislike oc he doesn't even know oc! To this day he dislikes ow though as she was a former friend and still with the help of my H had this incredible humiliating situation happen. See? He forgave Dad but ow was nothing to him so he harbors anger toward her for what happened to us both, you know what I mean?

Pops he was hospitalized over all of this and we both were put on anti depressants!
All of his close friends "knew"... he was horrified to say the least.

Hope you understand that oc didn't do this, oc's existance and how it came to be did.

That's where the humiliation comes in.

love
Debi

I think kids respond the way they are taught to respond. Good or bad. Right or wrong.

They come into this world with a blank slate whether they are born into a (confused xOW) single parent home without a name, or into an intact, happily married, two-parent, loving home with no affairs at all.

Children learn what they live. Parents' beliefs and values are programmed into their kids. Good or bad. Right or wrong. They are little sponges soaking up everything around them--all the mindsets, attitudes, and belief-systems of the adults who are making deposits into their lives.

We even teach them whether they are to be afraid or to be courageous! Just my take on it...

<small>[ December 19, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

BTDT you are so right about the values thing. Probably why my son was so shocked as to what happened. We taught him a different set of values than what his dad did! Not to mention son knew before me as H told him first and his reaction, on his own ,was a downward spiral.

Because of the values we showed him I guess. He was probably wondering about that "practice what you preach" thing where his Dad was concerned.

Maybe young children do ok, but most adult children who can think on their own, harbor ill feelings about oc and view it as embarassing.

I still say if oc lives in your home things seem to be different.

love
Debi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">originally posted by BTDT: Just my take on it...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and a very good take on it, if I may say so.

I agree.

A lot of children even have the same political beliefs as their parents, mine sure do. Of course, we are news and political junkies, so our little sponges couldn't help but get soaked up w/ it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously though, I really do think children take our lead, and are watching and listening more than we sometimes realize. Naturally, the older they get, the more independant they get, and the more they are able to form their own opinions. Still, a lot of their decision making processes, I can't help but think are influenced greatly by the way they were brought up. What did they learn from the way mom & dad handled certain situations?

Also, I agree with the notion that it's much easier for a sibling to handle growing up w/ an OC who is part of his/her daily life.

Sometimes kids also want to do whatever they think will please mom & dad too.

Boy, I don't think I was much help.

Good thread, pops!!

Take good care.

~autumnday

<small>[ December 19, 2003, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

well i was going to start at the top and work down
but when i read btdt's reply (They are little sponges soaking up everything around them--) it hit the nail on the head of where i as going with this thread.

btdt you must be psychic.

twisty,,,,, your 8 yo stateing that oc belongs to ow makes sense to me. but i want to ask you if it is at all possible that she/he heard you and h talking and one of you made reference to oc in that light? therefore instilling the attitude she/he exhibits now.

i agree that it gets old. just last night for the umteenth time i ran across an old friend whie at my 12 yo d's soccer practice. he asked if she was my youngest to which i replied no there is an almost 2 yo in the house. well he naturally assumed grace was mine and started on with the "man are you brave and "haven't you figured out what causes that crap" stuff. i just smiled and let it go. saying he doen't even have a clue.

gem,,,,, i understand your son being upset as in my house it was our older ones that were upset with fh's infidelity. i can't say whether grace being in the house made that big of a difference but it certainly ddn't hurt. it most likely made it much easier on our little ones as they were here with fh thru her entire preg. as opposed to having a living, breathing oc all of a sudden appear out of the blue. even our 5 yo d understood that baby's come out of moms tummy.

i even understand him being mad at the ow. after all she is a person that came between his mom and dad. kids get upset when parents remarry and all of a sudden there is a stepparent that comes between them and their mom or dad. but if he harbors resentment toward any person that had no say in the reason for the resentment he needs to try and find some peace with that somehow.

i also see your point about his being able to forgive his father and not ow. i would bet a dollar to a donut that your h asked your son for forgiveness and ow never even considered it.


i do see your point but will disagree with you on one thing. i don't agree that oc mear existance should is a valid reason to dislike he/she. but the way in which oc was concieved is definately valid.

crazy,,,, that is the point i was trying to get at. as btdt said i feel that especially with younger siblings in these circumstances their attitudes come mainly from how the adults around them react. even if the adults don't talk directly to the young ones but allow themselves to be overheard while discussing it or even argueing with their ws about it.

Heyyy,
Sorry I can't keep up on the board as much as I used to and as much as I would like. I just wanted to add another thing, I believe the kids pick up on our moods and attitudes even when we least expect it. It's amazing to watch my kids act out in unfavorable ways and turns out they are immitating ME! (yikes)

I can remember asking myself one time, 'gosh, am I really that negative?' because of my oldest's responses to a certain topic...

It's hard to face the truth that we can tell our kids how they should act, but they will behave exactly like we ARE.

This is wierd, this topic wasn't even showing up on my screen until today.....

But anyway, I can see, pops where you might be going with this and might be suspecting that BC will be fine and accepting of OC if parents "act" that way.

Our oldest has taken "news" of OC the worst. He will be 11 next month and we waited until the last possible moment to tell him about OC, when we were sure we would be going for C. AT THE TIME BC was 9 1/2 yo and OC was 4 1/2 yo.

That made the biggest differance right there, they did not know of each other's existance from the beginning.

BC went into a depression. We told him that daddy was wrong blah blah blah and never said anything neg. about OC. (trying to reinforce familial relations, we always referred to every one as brother and sister, daddy, ect.) He acted real sweet and like a loving older brother to OC at first but was suffering from visible symptoms of depression @ the same time. He was able to see first hand OW attitude and I think chose from then to have a "negative attitude/feeling" towards OW. He will say he is fine w/ everything but then is suffering from depression symptoms?

Now most of depression symptoms are gone and he is not as sweet to OC, more like indifferent. It is hard, he is embarrassed trying to explain.(he knows what his dad did was wrong so how could he explain that?) One week he only had a little brother and then the next he had a 4 yo sister!??! Of course all his friends were puzzled and asked questions. He would just tell them to come talk to me.

He seems to not like OC but after talking to other parents, they have reassured me that many of their bio kids act the same way towards each other and it may be more normal then I thought. I have mentioned on another thread/post that BC has said to me, which i think sums it up, "I know it's not OC fault but I still just wish she was never around and in our lives."

We have talked a lot w/ him, gone over responsibility, our religious convictions, emphasizing why these things are wrong and how much it affects so many other people when we act selfishly.

3yo has problems mostly due to OC being in and out of our lives because of "visitation". This pains me, it is not normal and I am sad about it. It is disruptive. I think when OC is from the woman the child "lives" w/ you but if OC is from the H, the child only "visits" and we all have that feeling.

There are a lot of variables that determine how BC and families will react with and towards OC if C is chosen.

As of today, right now, H & I think C was a mistake for our family but we are willing to stick it out longer and try to make it better and see if it does.

Our children were toddlers were told nothing at all at the time. However, I spoke with a woman who had an oc, tried contact and it was a disaster. She explained to me about all the upset and upheaval. So we choose at that time no contact. As our children grew and the OW and her whine for contact and all was obvious, they were horrified. As they entered Jr. High they understood clearly what oc was and what it stood for. They found the whole scenario seedy. And why not? It is seedy.

I think you are going to say (correct me if I'm wrong) that children learn their beliefs and thoughts from their parents. Our children think of the oc with embarrasment. They do not want to share their father with anyone. They think the whole thingis to Jerry Springer and want nothing to do with oc. I agree.

As for contact when my kids were basically babies, sorry. What would be the point? That child may have my husbands DNA, but is not a part of this family. Is not, and never will be considered or treated as a sibling. My children had a right to grow up free of the shame and embarrassment of having to explain to their friends who that boy is. They also didn't have to share their father with a strangers baby. I was told by a few women who had an oc how angry and upset their children were, how it humiliated them when oc was around. How hard and embarrassing it was for them when their friends would ask about the child at their house. She said her children were mortified and she was strongly against that. She said her children suffered and she will never forgive herself for putting them through that.

I believe the children of the marriage come first. I was not and will not ever expect my children to have to suffer any kind of embarrassment because of what their father did. They know of oc, and are sickend by the whole thing.

Are you going to try and tell me that since my children were so young that we could have had visitation and they could have been happy siblings? Doubt it. Just how were they supposed to explain this child to their friends when he is younger then my oldest and about the same age as my 2nd child? Do you think it would have been fair to my children to have their dad off some saturday and missing their soccer games to be with oc? What about it that child was at the game? How do they explain that? Why should they be subject to all that? I would never put my children in that position.

Look, your wifes OC was born to her, in the house. I would bet the majority of people expect that child is yours. So your children don't have to explain to much, as their friends probably assume you are the father anyway.

As for children accepting. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. You said the older ones were mad, but now accept. Can I ask, while they were mad, were their feelings taken into consideration or was it just a give that mom was bringing this baby into the house no matter what or how anyone felt?

But getting back to the topic at hand, I don't believe in contact. I feel that it is asking to much of the spouse and children to have to accept the embarrassing gossip just to make others feel better.

Pops - I understand your reasoning, but I must say I agree with LynnG on this. Her last post could have come straight from my own mouth. My H is seemingly trying to push contact on me. While the OC & my DD are 5 months apart, I know I would secretly seethe in public if someone asked if they were twins. I so admire Staci for being able to accept LilBit, but I suppose maybe I have some downfall as a Christian that I can't get past this.

My bio-father has children and I don't even know their names. I guess I just never felt the urge to know who they are. My H thinks this is wrong of me, but I never had any real contact my my bio, so I guess I just don't care.

As to how my DD would act towards the OC - I don't know. At 14 months, what does she know of any of this. My H thinks it's all so very simple - daddy made a mistake and that fixes it. Well - it doesn't. If *I* am so very humiliated by the OC then, how would my DD react? Tonite my MIL asked me if we were bringing both babies to visit for Christmas. The chill on the phone was so heavy her ear should have fallen off from frostbite. Obviously, my H was making plans w/o consulting me. A big no-no. Ok - I've digressed with a rant, but I do second Lynn. The dynamics are s very different on how people feel with these situations.

Vee

Our situation was a little different. It was a second marriage for both. Shared no children together. Each had two children from previous marriage. We ended up divorcing then worked on reconciliation for a while. For the record, I was willing to accept the OC into my life. I had met him, spent time with him, started to love him. During that time my 16 year old stpdaughter wrote me a letter re: the OC and what had happened. In our case the OC has Down Syndrome. My stpdaughter said "I am sorry for what you have had to go through. You are twice the woman the OW will ever be. But, I do love my baby brother, and am not sorry that he is in my life. The way he came into the world wasn't right, but it wasn't his fault. I know that he has special needs, but I love him and will always be there for him." My 21 year old stepson, her brother, has not been so accepting. For one thing, the OW is only one year older than my stp.son. Stp.son told his father, "I love you but have lost all respect for you." Would have nothing to do with the baby up until a few months ago when my exWS was in a terrible motorcycle accident and almost lost his life. Stp.son is helping provide care for his dad. This forces him to be around OC since dad and OW live together. He is starting to warm up to his half-sib. Sure it wounds the ego a little, even though I've given up on reconciliation. (exWS still has the illusion that someday we'll be back together). I am glad that my stp.son is warming to his half brother. The "children" are all totally innocent in this. But I'm sure that people in public assume the OC (18 months old) is either my stp.son's or stp.daughter's baby! My exWS is 48 years old! "Gramps" is in a household full of "kids". There are moments of sweet revenge in this world!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

lynn,vee, & lily,,,,,, thank you all for replies and i will reply back on friday or saturday depending on time.

I wish we had known people like LynnG had known, to warn us of all the mayhem that choosing C would cause and we would have known to make a different choice. We regret choosing C!

It was a surprise to me when I learned who had this problem in their lives. My doctor had his nurse talk with me. She and her H had an oc, we became friends. Soon we had a little group of us. Most had oc older then mine at the time. As the years rolled on, we sorta found each other. I am now one of the women with an older oc and have meet some wonderful young women going through the devastation this causes. We sorta have a little support group. All started by the nurse at the doctors office.

Today some of these women are my dearest and most cherished friends. We feel we have gone through the fire and have been forged with strength. We enjoy helping others. We babysit for long weekends, or for a night. I have had some young women and their children stay at my home for a few days to help them out. Give mom a chance to lick her wounds while she catches up to her own life that has spun out of control.

You are new to this. Someday, years down the road you are going to look into the eyes of a younger woman and see exactly where you were. You are going to want to help her. Hug her. Her story will not be a trigger at all. You are going to see the lies with such a clarity, that she can't see at that time. When people start clammoring for contact with the oc, your wisdom and experience are going to be information she needs to hear. This is not a Norman Rockwell painting afterall. When others are telling her that she has to do what is right for the child, you will be the experienced voice of reason asking her what about her children? What about what she wants and needs? You are going to be the one with the strength to listen to her story over and over and over. That is the best we can do for each other. Listen.

The women you wish you had met, it will be you!! The best thing that came out of all of this oc business for me is my wonderful group of friends. I love them dearly and we really have fun. We have much more in common then just an oc.

The most important thing I learned is to live you life and be happy. Enjoy your family. Enjoy your life. Don't let others make decisions about your life that work out best for them. As so many want us to do.

well first i hope everyone had a happy holiday and will have a happy and prosperpous new year.

lynn,,,, let me say 1st that i am in no way trying to condem or chastise you on your decision of nc. and i am not trying to tell you that had you had contact your kids and oc would have led a life of peace and harmony. there is no way of telling how the past may have changed the present. if at all.

---------------------------------------------
I think you are going to say (correct me if I'm wrong) that children learn their beliefs and thoughts from their parents
----------------------------------------------
that's exactly what i am going to say.

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Our children were toddlers were told nothing at all at the time
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i assume that by toddlers you mean under the age of 4. how does a child under the age of 4 who is introduced to another infant feel embarrassment over oc being introduced to them. hell they have no concept of the reproduction method and so have no concept of any form of deciept. for all they know at that age the oc could have crawled out from under a cabbage leaf.

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That child may have my husbands DNA, but is not a part of this family. Is not, and never will be considered or treated as a sibling. My children had a right to grow up free of the shame and embarrassment
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the oc is not part of your family because you and h have choosen that road. and by doing so took your children along for the ride. if that works for you and yours, fine. again what i am saying is that your children, as babies had no shame of oc. that was a gift from you. it was your shame and embarrassment of your h's A and resulting oc that was handed down to them.

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Are you going to try and tell me that since my children were so young that we could have had visitation and they could have been happy siblings? Doubt it. Just how were they supposed to explain this child to their friends when he is younger then my oldest and about the same age as my 2nd child?
----------------------------------------
now i will say the answer is don't know for sure. but it may have been possible had it been presented to them in a positive light instead of a negative one of shame. example "lynn, kids here is your new brother.
kids, where did he come from?
lynn, people make mistakes and your dad made one. as a result of his mistake your 1/2 brother was created.

in which case your kids explanation would simply be he my brother.

so the answer is maybe. now i understand that you were obviously in a tremendous amount of pain at that time and that's why i don't say ypou were wrong for your choice. you did what was best for you at that time with the resources you had to work with.

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Do you think it would have been fair to my children to have their dad off some saturday and missing their soccer games to be with oc? What about it that child was at the game?
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their dad didn't have to be off visiting oc. he could have picked up oc and brought him to the game.

in our case grace and her bio dad don't miss any of his son's soccer games. he picks her up and they go as a family.

which is my point. had oc been incorporated into the family from the start all those around you, be it family and/or friends, who care about you would have followed your lead and excepted the facts.

this is exactly what has happened with our family.
grandma is grandma, grandpa is grandpa, cousins, aunts and uncles are cousins, aunts and uncles. we live in a small town for southern calif (about 20000). i have been very active in the community for a long time with all the kids sports and school functions. there is never a negative word said about grace or our kids. when i am out in public (always) people always ask how the kids are and remark how beautiful (parental bragging right) they are and they are always including grace. she is considered one of mine.

people wil take from your attitude and respond accordingly.

-------------------------------------
Look, your wifes OC was born to her, in the house. I would bet the majority of people expect that child is yours. So your children don't have to explain to much, as their friends probably assume you are the father anyway.
----------------------------------------
there is no mistaking that grace is not my child as her bio dad is latino. yes some people we don't know just assume she is mine when at the store. but i think that is because of the way i interact with grace. it as natural and the same as i did with all my kids. point here being that people respond to what they see in kind. and you are right i guess as none of my kids have ever come to saying that so-in-so asked where grace came from.

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You said the older ones were mad, but now accept. Can I ask, while they were mad, were their feelings taken into consideration or was it just a give that mom was bringing this baby into the house no matter what or how anyone felt?
---------------------------------------------
yes the older 2 were very upset. the oldest is my son from before i met fh. he was extremely upset as his bio mom had lived a life of one guy after another and bar hopping. he veiwed fh as a stable mom who lived with morals. his disappointment with her was always coupled with he would support whatever dicision i made as far as staying in the marriage or divorcing fh. once i made the dicision to stay it was actually him that said to me "then all the resentment has to be put behind you and you need to move forward. if i couldn't do that then i would have made the wrong choice."
incredible wisdom for a man at the age of 26. (sorry more bragging)

as for my oldest d (19 at the time) she too was upset but her reasons were hagain her disappointment with her mother. she had just moved back in the house and given birth to a d of her own. her and fh were always close and she was stricken aback at the fact of fh's affair and resulting pregnancy because fh had spent the last year telling her to use protection against not only preg. but std's also and not to just jump in the sack with the first john that comes down the lane. then she saw her mom leave birth control behind and lay down with the first guy that paid attention to her outside of her marriage. she was disappointed in her mom's two facedness (is that a word or did i just make it up?). also she wanted fh to abort the baby as she had just done the same because she became preg very shortly after giving birth to my grandaughter "buttercup"
and aborted the baby. fh and i supporte her on her dicision and she felt her mom should be strong enough to follow suit. now she is graces baysitter and has fully accepted her.

yes their feelings were taken into consideration as were the fellings of all those involved. all were talked out. but yes they did have to make a choice of whether to accept fh and grace or not.

another point i want to make here is that you mention the shame and embarrassment you suffer from your h's A. i find that strange as i don't feel any of that as far as fh's A. she has those feelings i know but not me. what would i be ashamed or embarassed of. the fact that i stayed married to someone that cheated on me. i feel that staying is an asset to my character instead of a humiliation. as it should be for you and anyone else that goes through this and rebuilds their marriage. you should feel no shame what-so-ever in this and be proud that you were strong enough to not only survive it but keep your family intact also. let's face it if it were left to ws's most marriages would end after discovery before their fog lifted. it is the bs's determination to hold the family together that enables them time to screw their heads on straight and get to work on the marriage.

---------------------------------
But getting back to the topic at hand, I don't believe in contact
--------------------------------------
wrong the topic at hand is not contact vs nc. the topic at hand is who c's learn from and if we are projecting the right attitudes to them.

will reply to more later i can't believe how slow i type. my keyboard skills stink.

<small>[ December 28, 2003, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

kt,,,,, i understand what you are saying about the difficulty of bringing a c of 4yo into the family in these cases. i am sure it was alot easier on us as grace was here from the start and my kids actually saw fh during her entire preg. to them it probably seemed just like any one of the others.

and the same goes for ow. if they present the situation to their oc as an abandoning father then oc will assume the same.

this is what happened to my oldest son although he was not an oc. his mother told him his whole life that i abandoned him. so when he was older the anger surfaced. that is when i simply handed him the journal that i had kept and let him read for himself what happened from my viewpoint.

vee,,,,,, as i posted to lynn i don't understand your humiliation. i have never felt shame or humiliation as a result of fh's A. all the other emotions sure pain, hurt, anger, rejection, low self esteem, etc. but not shame and humiliation.

in fact the feeling of looking outside of my own personal hurt and doing what i thought best for my kids was a big part of rebuilding my own self esteem. even if it was a self centered pride at the time, it sure helped.

and i don't think you have any down spots of being a Christain in the way you are handleing this. there are a billion different and extremely complicated emotions envolved with this nightmare.
i think the Bible gives you an option of which road to follow. Abraham cast his son and his sons mother out into the desert knowing God would
protect them. (nc) while gomers husband waited for years and forgave her for her infidelities. (forgiveness of an A)

i will disagree with you on the daddy made a mistake part. as far as your kids are concerned it should most definately be enough. if not you would be projecting your hurts onto them. don't you want to teach your c's about forgiveness and compassion? or should they learn that a lifetime of torment should be lived for each mistake we make thru life. this is in no way an attempt to trivialize A w/ oc. men who were looked in deadly combat during many of our wars have been able to forgive men who were trying to kill them years before. why can't your h make a mistake and find forgiveness for it?

lily,,,,, that is what i am talking about. i am sure that this was presented in a positive light to your sd. and it sounds like the continual presentation as a positive is why your ss is warming to oc. he is not placing blame on oc for his dad's mistake.

it sounds like your h is still with ow. i am curious as to how your 2 kids reacted to oc.

I'm thinking the "humiliation" thing may be the difference between male and female. I don't know, I felt VERY DUMB upon the discovery/confession of the A. I felt like a complete idiot.

And we also told our oldest BC that daddy was wrong but I also try to turn every "opportunity" we have to talk about it positive and by pointing out the "positives", at least for my son's sake. I tell him about forgiveness and how OC is a testament to our (my) forgiveness and dad's hard work to take responsibility and make things right (regardless of how I feel at the moment, but I believe it most of the time) and the grace of GOD to give us the strength to forgive each other as he always forgives us ect., how blessed we are to have an intact family because many marriages/families do not survive these situations, ect. There are many things that I say and I try to make daddy look very good always. A child won't know if they have the worst dad in the world (H is a great dad) if you treat them as the best. (and I'm not reffering to abusers and losers here, but normal, everyday dads/parents who aren't perfect, not excusing unexcusable behaviour) And I always remind our children of how much mommy loves daddy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But they have been hurt that is undeniable. It is a betrayal to them too. I just try to help them sort out their real feelings (hard to do with the 3 yo ???? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

I would rather not have had to see them go through this pain. I feel like there is enough pain and evil outside in the world and I failed to protect them from the pain in their own home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That is just how I feel.