I think the thought process leading to abortion, in these cases, is not wanting to get caught.

I am totally against abortion. But when I was pg. @ 19 and not yet married, my FIRST thought was abortion. I didn't want any one to find out, much less my parents, I was so embarrassed and disappointed in myself and knew they would be too. Thank God, that was only for a minute, I didn't even say it out loud. I'm sure it would have destroyed H and I's relationship if we had chosen that.

I know it's not exactly the same situation as C from A, but none the less...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the thought process leading to abortion, in these cases, is not wanting to get caught. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sadly, yes...that was high on the list of why I thought of it.

A couple months later I told my H about considering abortion in the early days. Ironically enough he said, "Now that is something I don't know if I could've forgiven."

For me too, the thought didn't go very far. I never even called an abortion clinic, let alone looked up a phone # to one. Still, I'm ashamed I considered it. I'm ashamed of a lot of things.

I'm a guy and don't mean to butt in on you ladies, but I just want you to know I really admire you. You were faced with a decision to kill your baby in order to "protect" yourself but instead chose the right path. That took guts and humility. God will, and already has, rewarded you for your compassionate ways. My heart hurts for those women who chose abortion and now are consumed with guilt and second thoughts. Jesus has a special place in His heart for them.

Deleted******Justuss*********

Any questions or comments,,email me....

<small>[ January 29, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Good lord!! I must admit, I'm impressed with the civility too!!! Maybe it is because, as far as I know, most ow here are not the ow who blew through any of the BS on here marriages. Yell at each other as we might, overall, it is dialog isn't it? We really can't hurt each other and we are all coming at this from different places.

Yeah, I think we can learn from each other. However, I agree that it is far out of line for any OW to ever speak harshly to any BS over the plight of the OW. That will get my motor running!!

I will speak of my own beloved husband (said with a snear! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). When his affair was outted, he did the standard issue, repentant MM routine. The tears, the begging, the professions of love everafter, how wonderfull I am, the "oh, how could I have been so stupid" , the "she is just a whore", "she is nothing, I love you" and so on. I'm sure the words many of us on here have heard. HOWEVER. Words are cheap. At the time he was spouting that, I was numb, whatever he said was in one ear and out the other. He actually went out and purchased the other standard issue repentant gift, the huge, obnoxious solitare <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . The forgive me please rock, if you will. And all of that was supposed to appease me?????????? It took a damm long time before I would even trust him giving me the correct time. And I did just that. One time I did ask "what time is it?" and he said "4:00" and I was like "are you sure", then checked the clock myself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . He looked puzzled. I said "well, how can I believe what you say?" He was dumbstruck. He seemed to think professions of I'm sorry, and his tears were somehow supposed to make me feel better. Well they don't.

I believe he felt horrible for all he had done. He never knew when those divorce papers were going to be coming at him. He knew I saw an attorney. He saw the first set of papers, but ripped them up. He knew I was financially able to walk away and be fine. There was many a day when he came home to find his personal effects loaded up in the hallway. He was a mess. One time he was crying by himself in the family room, looking at photos. He begged me to please forgive him, please don't leave him, he was so sorry. BUT and I mean that as a huge, story stopping BUT....then why cheat? Why feel so bad now? It felt and sounds quite hollow, especi

Autumn...

You are such a wonderful woman. From everything I have read here, I think you are a real stand up gal. I'm so glad you have Tigger and Mom of Five to commiserate with. Their situations, (FH's too) are so similar to yours, and since all of you are in recovery, it is so wonderful to see all these families healing and all this marvelous insight.

Lynn, NONE of the women mentioned here are OW's. They are FORMER WS's. There is a huge difference between them and your card carrying Bunny Boiler types. In fact, there is no correlation as far as I am concerned and I hope you see the distinction as well. FWS are NOT OW. They do not beat up on Betrayeds, nor do they show any disresepct.

I am so curious as to what your story is. I don't think you have ever posted it and if you have, I have never seen it. Do you mind me asking a few questions? I think if we knew more about you, it might fascilitate a greater understanding.

I am really curious as to when your husband's A was and how long did it go on. Did you ever have any kind of marriage counseling or individual counseling? Did you ever get over your husband's A? Who knows about his A? How old is OC? How is your marriage now? How long have you two been recovering? Has it been successful? Have you been able to get over it?

I don't mean to hijack this thread...I am sorry for that; so perhaps if you are so inclined to answer any of these question, maybe you would prefer to post these answers on Private.

Thanks, Lynn.

Cat =^^=

<small>[ January 29, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

Lynn, what happened to the rest of your story?

Thank you, Cat, and right back atcha!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lynn, what happened? Mid-sentence, mid-word, and poof, you were gone. I thought for a moment the rapture happened, and I'd been left behind. But, then again, I am a FWS... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Seriously, hope to "hear the rest of the story", (another Paul Harvey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) soon, hope all is ok.

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

Cat:
Can I please say something to you. Or should I say comment to you? When I first started posting I thought you were a bit mean, and harsh. Then one day between posts of you and I you told your story of the mess. Somewhere you became kind and fair after exchanging a few post with me. I know that reading your story it was sad and you've been through the ringer. I have not had a "debate" so to speak with you since. I appricate your kindness once we exchanged a few words and saw where each other was coming from. Once you posted else where and everyone attacked you and called you names. I already knew your story and even commented that fact in the same thread. I know first hand how hard it is to look at someone else side and say well ok, maybe so. But I've noticed you can do that here even with us xow....xws....etc., Sometimes I still hear some harshness in your post, but knowing where you came from it helped to understand your harshness. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I mean every respect while I write this. I guess I'm trying to say even though you've been through what you've been through you can also see the other side of the coin and I appricate that. One thread I don't remember the title and don't have time to look for it, but you laid your soul out regarding morals and how you felt about your own beliefs and how for awhile you strayed from that and how that made you feel later and it was honest, and humble. I read that post and saw even a more differnt light in you. Again I appricate that. I have learned to cope with things reading and talking with others here as well as other boards. Another board I go to the ow/bs actually co-mingle and get along and it's very nice. They have helped me a lot as well not just with the pregnancy (very little there as it's not for that really) but the whole "what the hell were you thinking" and yes we are all people. I just wanted to tell you that I appricate some of the things you've said and even though you may not know it, or cared.....it meant a lot.

Thumbs up are for you, NTMO, and to others who are able to see past the label, and see the person.

How about looking past all labels and finding the true MBer in everyone here who is doing their best to affair-proof their marriages????

That's what I meant, just didn't think quickly enough to make it plural.

One step further...how about all labels looking past all labels. That was a central issue I had in mind when I began this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 30, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: autumnday ]</small>

I would love a world without labels, but would especially love to see this board without labels!
Great thread autumnday!

e

Hmmmm. Operator error on my last post!!

I realize the difference between WS and OW. But I think the jist of what I was trying to say was that just saying "I'm sorry" isn't enough, necessary, but not enough. Time. That and how WS utilize the time is what counts. Ok, I'm all for WS doing their best to try and make this up to BS. However, it all comes down to time and actions. Obviously the WS has to do things, but I think the hardest part for the BS (in my opinion) in the first year is believing a single word said. So it is the actions that count. Some days a BS is just in a funk. Saying "I'm sorry" at that time, is nice, but isn't going to to just erase the funk. The coulple has to face this head on.

Ok. The questions.

When? 1987
Counseling? Yes
Get over affair? Yes
Who knows? Husband, me, ow, our families, and those wonderfull women I call friends!
How old is OC? 16
How is marriage now? Fine
How long recovering? It took a couple years
Successful? I think so
How able to get over it? Well, that took time and actions. OW tried every game in the book to try and force contact with OC. The more my husband stood up for our marriage, our family and our choice really helped. It took alot of time for me to look at him in that loving way again. I didn't wake up one day and go "whew, thats over" It was gradual. Over time. And yes, it did help to talk it to death. I made lots of mistakes early on. Ones that I'm sure hindered my healing. Like, not dealing with it, actually trying to put it behind me to quick, not talking it out immediately, etc. Over time, my wonderful friends who had been in the same boat took me by the hand and showed me the way. And that was with honesty, and of course time. It was by their side, that my strentgh returned. I learned that my feelings and my wishes mattered. That I did not have to sacrifice my own life for anyone.

So I'm not sure if there is an exact date that I got over it. All I know is that it doesn't hurt me personally anymore. However, it does hurt me to see other women go through it. Since I know what it feels like, and know how lucky I was to have such great friends. When I hear the pain and confusion in words here my heart breaks for those people. But I also know that decisions made early on can be made with emotion, or not thought out, and that can compound the whole mess. So while it is the hardest thing in the world to do, you have to stand up and make yourself heard. You have to speak up and say what it is you want and need. You have to take measures to protect yourself, your children and your future. That is where good friends and laywers come in to it. In those early days, nobody knows what is really going to happen and how this will play out. So it is so important to be strong.

Once I regained my strength and took measures to protect me, and my family, I felt like I had control of my life again. I was not going to let his affair and the oc rule any decision I made. I choose no contact, and he agreed. Had he wanted to see oc, we would have a problem. As the years ticked by (and they do go by fast), OW tried some games.

In the early years (first two I recall) she would try to get my in-laws involved with oc. She would mail photos and letters etc. They were livid. We had to add our extended families to an OFP. Then OW would be silent for a couple years. Suddenly she would hear or find out about family trips, and she was on the warpath. Since we went, she felt that oc should get the monetary value of the trip????? So, back to attorneys we went. She was warned over and over again to leave us alone. She was forced to pay for our legal fees after one hearing due to the stupidity of her actions. Hence the lein against her home. We last had a run in with her when she called and wanted us to by oc a car. Since our d. has a car. She just doesn't get the fact that no contact means no contact.

So, when I was asked to come here and read a certain story, by a long time poster, I was dismayed. I could see/hear the lost souls and the broken hearts. I could read the hopless feelings and I wanted these BS to know that this isn't going to ruin their lives. Their marriages will be ok. They can go on and move past this, etc. Then I read where some were feeling guilty for not wanting contact with oc. Huh? Why should they HAVE to want contact? I don't understand the mentality that once this oc has been created, that the BS and the BC have to accept oc into the family with open arms. Sure, some do, but not everyone HAS to. And it is not wrong to choose nc either. I know the damage and harm that contact has caused others. I see this as two people have created a huge hurt for lots of people, oc included. The BS and the BC should not be accepted to put their feelings and their lives on hold to accomdate an oc. That is where my biggest battles here are. I come across harsh in my total and 100% support of those who do not want contact. Cause they are already in a state of shock, upset, upheaval, confusion etc. I want them to know that if that is how they are feeling it is OK. That it does not make them wrong, and they have to express themselves.

I have also read where people think BW say "me or OC, take your pick" And I know that conversation and it has never gone like that. Ours was me saying something like "I don't think I could ever have oc in this house.." or to that effect. H said something like "I would never do that, oc is not going to be here..." or something like that. It was also more then one conversation. I didn't stand there with arms across my chest yelling "me or oc". I just want these BW (as those are who I relate to) to know that once oc is born, cs established, etc. to go ahead and get on with your life and your marriage (if that is what they want). The oc is not a marriage ending disaster. Sure the early days are rough, but if your H is truly repentant and you decide to work it out and stay together, then do it. Go on and live your life as you choose. Do what is best for you, your marriage and your family and you will be fine.

So thats my story in a nutshell. I was directed to this site by a friend who posted here. I stay cause I really don't want to see a BW get run over by anyone. At that time (last fall) there was some pretty strong opions about the whole contact issue. Now I realize that issue is ongoing and never is going to be settled on here!!!

Good day

Thanks so much, Lynn, for enlightening all of us and telling your story. There have been a lot of speculation about you without anyone really knowing anything at all. Seems that almost everyone missed the point entirely.

It helps to know from whence you came in order to understand your particular stance. Your logic is sound and I know I certainly appreciate a broader story from you in order to squelch judgments from people who haven't the stomach to acknowledge some truths and realities ....with too little information or bias against you. It's easier for some to stamp you angry and bitter instead of looking beyond the delivery and into the message.

One thing that stands out to me (besides your overall message) is that you say you have other friends that you know that have gone through the same thing you have. I need to know...where on earth did you find these people in your area? Without the gift of MB, I would not know one person personally who has gone through what I went through.

I maintain that this occurance is definitely the exception rather than the rule and that this small group on MB P/C would have all been isolated and alone had we not had the miracle of the Internet to bring us all together through modern technology. I feel so sorry for people who have gone before us in earlier times with nothing to connect them to others for support and commiseration; without any support whatever since I bet few (except for you) know of anyone else in our social, familial situations or any acquaintances that have experienced such horror in their marriages (that we know of).

Anyway, thanks for the clarification and for the sound advice and the intent/motivation behind it.

Cat =^^=

[QUOTE]Originally posted by needtomoveon:
[QB]
When I first started posting I thought you were a bit mean, and harsh.

=^^= And sadly, some things will never change. The important thing is to know when it's appropriate to be abrupt to shake someone up and when it's OK to just let it be. I think we all mellow here once we have been the grateful recipient of healing and recovery. But, sometimes when someone is on self-destruct, ya gotta call in the SWAT (Slap With A Truth) team to combat said behavior for their own sake. It might come off as "mean" when it is really loving. And sometimes, it isn't pretty.

Somewhere you became kind and fair after exchanging a few post with me.

=^^= I have always been kind and fair; but do not suffer fools gladly. After you get to know someone and find out their story and what makes them tick, it's easier to get a handle on what they are all about and ease up. Some of us are a little hyper-sensitive (me) to the many OW's that were posting for a while, and I would be pretty hard on some people if I didn't know their intent and motivation. Once I knew someone was on the level, I loosened up a bit. I got ridiculously protective of this brood for a while and asked Dr. Harley for some concessions to combat interlopers that he so graciously granted.
I'm not talking about regular members or OW's who are also FWS; I'm talking about Trolls from the other board who come here to shoot off their mouth without knowing someone or their story and then post a bunch of ignorant knee jerk judgments. That hasn't happned in a while and it appears we have some peace right now and it's kind of nice to be able to mind our own businesses and focus on helping our own.

Once you posted else where and everyone attacked you and called you names.

=^^= It certainly works both ways and as long as there are two polar opposites, there will always be disagreements and controversy. Actually, it gave me a bit of satisfaction knowing that I had them all in a tizzy and that they were at a loss for intelligent debate because they couldn't counter my comments and pretty much reduced themselves to name calling since they had nothing else of value to offer. What else could they do? Sling a little [censored] since there was no argument of substance coming from their camp.

Sometimes I still hear some harshness in your post, but knowing where you came from it helped to understand your harshness. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

=^^= Yeah, I do. And if I can't take it, I'd better not dish it out, right? But, I CAN take it. My feelings don't get hurt because this is a discussion forum where we are encourage to post our thoughts and feelings. I feel passionately about regular members having the right to post without recrimiination for their views. Sometimes we all need to calm down a little and call someone on their delivery, but it can be done respectfully. I get dressed down every now and then and it's because I deserve it and need to be taken down a peg or two.

I just wanted to tell you that I appricate some of the things you've said and even though you may not know it, or cared.....it meant a lot.

=^^= I care very, very much. I care a lot and I am very grateful to you and for taking the time to post to me and be so honest about the good, bad and the ugly. I'm so glad you didn't get scared away and I am sorry if I ever said anything that hurt your feelings as it wasn't my intent. I am very touched.
Please know that a lot of people here are devotees of tough love while others cling to a softer and gentler way. Neither is either right or wrong...just someone's style. I've always liked tough love because I think it is more effective and gets to the meat of recovery. I worry about people being babied (for lack of a better word) because I think it causes them to stay stuck in their pain much longer than necessary. But, sometimes, I like to baby someone too, because we all need that at times. Sometimes we just want someone to comfort us and I guess there is a fine line in determining the proper response to any situation and then go from there.

Thanks again, NTMO. It's been a pleasure.

Cat =^^=

I was speaking with my Dr. early on. All upset, etc. He asked if I would like to speak with his nurse who had and was going through the same thing. So that is how I met her. She would tell me what laywers to see, who not to see, etc. Then she would tell me anon stories of others, one day we all met, as we had been helping each other on an anon basis. Soon we had this secret litttle sorority of BW. We helped each other. Every now and then a young woman finds herself in the same boat and she finds us. We help her, no matter what she decides to do.

One thing we have done is to make sure that all the decisions are based on true and honest feelings and wishes. NOT based on what is good for oc or ow or even ws. We let these BW know that now is the best time to stand up and be heard. If you don't want oc in your life, you better say it right now. Because by being meek and trying to be politically correct will only hurt you later, if that is not where your heart truly lies. The ow has the child, the court ordered $$, etc. Nobody is looking out for the hurt wife. So we do. I was very lucky to find these wonderfull women.