you summed it up well, tigger4jdt.

good job.

ahhh, i think i have this log in name stuff straightened out again.

my #1s has a very close friend that went thru hs with him. his buddy (lets call him joe) dated the same girl for almost 4 years. she became pg and when the baby was born decided she wasn't ready to settle down and was gone.

now this woman could have easily lied to all and claimed that she didn't know who the father was and place the child for adoption. but instead she was honest with joe and told him she didn't want anything to do with the baby.

well joe is raising his son alone. and doing a prety good job of it i might add. the question is did the mom abandon the baby? in my opinion NO. she let her views be known and never formed a relationship with the child. she left and has no plans of coming back.

would that boy be better off in a 2 parent house? i don't see how he could be more loved or better taken care of.

we as adults should never place any STIGMA on ANY child. this is the year 2004 NOT 1804 where a [censored] child was looked down upon. and if you look back in history it wasn't the child in 1804 who was born saying i am a [censored]. it was the ADULTS who knew the facts that so labeled that child.

i would and will never say to grace that her mother was a whore and her father was a sneaky chicken s#!t coward. she will simply know that her mother loved her with all her heart.

and for those of you that think there is no excuse for pregnancy in this day and age fh and i have a beautuful 9 year old on april 1 who was concieved while i we were using condoms. it broke. i know there was no A but the point is that we niether of us wanted anymore kids and we were using b-control and that no system is 100% except abstinance.

i hope those participating in this thread can stay focused on the initial question and let it slide into the gutter with name calling and cheesy referrals to whores and liars.

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>
catnip.. funny I never looked at myself that way, as I never ever in my life had had an affair before this time. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= MOF....I think of you as a Former Wayward Spouse and as for my previous comments, they were not intended for anyone specifically...just in general...and I certainly did not mean you or yours. I am sorry if you took it personally. You have an e-mail heading your way.

Hi,
Just wanted to add my .02...

I think when a woman gives a baby up for adoption, she is abandoning herself to the strengths of the adoptive parents and the stability that they can offer the child, regardless if the child is from an affair or just unplanned, unnamed and/or unwanted.

I think it is human nature for all of us to deal with abandonment issues at some point in our lives, whether it's real or imagined. It's just part of life on earth, regardless...

Giving a baby up for adoption is no guarantee that the adoptive parents will remain married either, so that's another aspect to consider.

<small>[ March 29, 2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

What I am saying is the mother can give up her rights- but the father has to be notified in order for his decision of keeping the child or giving up his rights also for adoption.
If one parent decides to keep the child and the other one doesnt want it, the parent that doesnt want it has the right to stay out of that childs life physically and emotionally, but regardless of that choice whether it be the mother or father- if they think the child will need help financially, then the parents(both) are responsible.
Yes giving a child to a couple who cant have any is wonderful. As for the stigma- thats what you put on your child. My child does not live with any nasty secret. It is all out in the open-clearly, no secrets- no dirt to dig. 100% love and acceptance-no drama -no ugliness here. Whores and liars--I havent seen any- or is that what the men are called these days? (only kidding , just trying to make light of an ugly statement--please dont fuel your fires with this.)
My child has a wonderful daddy. No vacumn in my childs life- alot of dirt(she loves to dig in the garden-most of it ends up on her head)
It would of been nice if om and family chose to move on. But they didnt. i would never call a child a mistake- God knows this child- he doesnt make mistakes. And yes some people want easy answers for themselves.

And to the statement "now that there is an oc, the relationship has ended" I ended it-my choice-he wanted to keep it going-have his little family on the side-to this day I know he would start our relationship up again if I would agree. It was not all sex (very little really)like you would like to think-we had a so called normal relationship(normal if we both werent married) we worked together, shopped together, went to the gym, had meals together,became good friends, etc....It was a wrong choice. (not to hurt pops with any of this) but om was proud of oc and still is. I never wanted him to leave his marriage, I know that it was a relationship that had gotten out of control, even though he asked if i would leave mine. My answer was no.
I agree with the point if he is paying cs-he has taken his responsibility. This i never wanted-so my views are some what different i guess. I would have gladly let him slip out of the picture completely, I guess that would have been my easy way out.
You dont think I understand any of the pain that the bw and family is going through or dealt with. I saw my own bs go through it so dont say I dont understand. I live with the pain of what i did everyday and forever. I never said anything against om's bw, i would never inflict more on someone after all that has happened. I do understand. I dont understand the statement about the "first punch"? explain please?
I did 30 years ago have an abortion, I was young and stupid and didnt want to burden anyone, I have regretted it for 30 years, how I wish I was strong enough to keep that child, I miss everyday. I hate it when someone tries to express their feelings and views about their life --no one elses and everyone attacks. No one listens, no one says ok, this is what this person is going through, its always a personal attack on someone. These are my feelings, my views, no one elses, this is my answers for my life, not yours, it may help someone else to see how i am dealing with life and it may help no one. Are we not all here to express, hopefully to repair our lives. So why is there always someone jumping in and calling people such hateful horrible names, when each person is and individual going through their own seperate situation and pain. why does your pain put so much hate on everyone you categorize in to one lump. I am so sorry about your pain, i am so sorry about the pain everyone deals with, I am so sorry about the pain i live with. can we not start reaching out and share instead of condemning everyone....sorry that i am blabbing away ...i am not doing well....and started reading again to look for answers, but it still seems there is so much hate, and i dont understand how this can help anyone. sorry

I am sorry if my post above sounds like it is jumping from one thing to another, i was reading the whole thread and commenting on everything that hit my little brain

Full House

I thik your post made alot of sense. And its weird how our situations are similar. I to ended my affair and wish that Xmm would disappear. But he wants to be pat of his childrens life and I don't feel right denying him that. The only difference is you have an H that loves you dearly and is doing his best to make the marriage work.

Best of luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Crazymum:
<strong> Will they let him sign away his rights? From what I understand is that he can't do that unless someone is stepping up to adopt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not so, I was married very young ( 18 ) My husband at the time left me and my son .. he called one day and said, " I am not ready to be a father". I said fine. I had his parental rights terminated as a single mother with no one planning to adopt my son. He did not contest it, the judge granted the termination. The thing that sucks though, is not that I thought it was an issue back then because I was young and thought I was Super Woman, is that with termination you dont get child support. Nor does my child have any rights to inheritance.

Now my son is 16 years old and it is tough financially. i sometimes wish I didnt terminate the rights, sometimes due to the issue of CS, it was my pride in the way. But all this time even though I didnt want his help financially, I could have been putting that money away for my son for college or something. I have cheated my son out of something. But At least I dont have to deal with all the baby's daddy drama.

You see, this was MY HUSBAND (at the time), it really doesnt matter , but basically him being a dad was cramping his "style" . We have not heard from him to this day.


Oh yes so you can terminate parental rights on grounds of abandonment.


So the difference in my eyes, is he did the equivalent of "giving his child up for adoption" , but not because the child would be better off, he did so because he was SELFISH and didnt want to change his LIFESTYLE.
( I did run into him once... he was driving a new Porsche... I was on my way to apply for legal assistance at the time, realize it took me 3 years to find this man after the phone call)

Now, had I been some drug adicted crack-wh*re who sleep with 20 guys one night and didnt know who the father was, lets say I was homeless, then giving a child up for adoption would be an appropriate and RESPONSIBLE choice because in that case I would not be able to provide a SAFE environmant for my child.

BUT if I rather give up my kid for adoption than trade in my new Porsche... well THAT is IRRESPONSIBLE and abandonment IMHO.


And ya know even if I was in a situation where I had to choose adoption, I would prefer an open adoption in which the adoptive parents would allow me contact in some way, at least to know that my child was doing well etc...

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: nycmedic ]</small>

FH

We don't hear from you very often. This is NOT about you or your situation. Not once did I ever think of you, refer to you or consider you in my post. I speak entirely in generalities, directing my not so subtle POV to the OW who accuse us of gearing up to torture an adult OC (for God's sake), OW who mock Christ and Christians as if believing in God is somehow uncool nd weak and accusing of BW "hiding" behind the Scriptures, calling us cultists and Bible thumpers simply because the pain is so great, we turn to God for help because there is nowhere else to turn in the beginning.

What is wrong with these people? Why are they so incredibly poisoned with hate, vengeance and bitterness for the BW? What did any BW ever do to them that could compare on any level to what the OW did to the BW? If the OW intruded herself into the BW's life by screwing her husband, then she threw the first punch...do you understand the analogy now?

They (OW) on TOW claim they don't care a whit about the XMM, they obviously don't want anything we have, so why do they constantly attack the BW? I don't get it. They (OW) get hundreds or thousands of dollars every month from BW's who never knew they existed, who are suddenly suffering financially (you'd think that alone would make them cheer with glee and vindicate them!) and claim that's all they want, then cry about no Contact and call BW and XMM disgusting names for taking the time necessary to repair the marriage, yet refuse to take responsibility for what they have done, the plight of their own lives and that their own actions have caused OC hardship and an absent parent by choosing a MM over a SG to father their child.

They (OW) refuse to accept responsibility for orchestrating their own misery. And they are angry at the BW and complain to her and try to shame her! Of all people! As if this is HER problem, for God's sake. Why should any BW care about the OC? She is not obliged to do so, even if she does care for the child. It ain't her problem...except to suffer financially...which is a problem that came out of nowhere and was laid at her feet--how fair is that?

Most BW's have to watch their own kids go without because of OW and WS. But do the OW care? Not one little bit. Never did and never will. Not one bit. It's that same selfishness that allowed them to do what they did to ruin the BW and BC lives to begin with. They just didn't care. Still don't. Yet, we are expected to care about them and their OC. Incredible. In fact, they (OW) expect that the BW should accept OC if she wants to restore her marriage...like it comes with the territory, saying that the WS is not the same man. (I say, Thank God)

According to the OW, a person's fall from grace morphs them into someone else entirely. By that logic, the same applies to the OW. They are not the same person either, and have eroded into self-serving, heartless wenches, expecting a whole lot from their victim for a lot of BW heartache in return. Does that make any sense to anyone? What is even more ridiculous is that OW really doesn't want BW to develope a close and loving relatiosnhip with her OC and would be threatened beyond belief if a relationship would develop, concocting intircate rules as evidenced here, time after time, after time.

These are truths. I'm not making this stuff up. Sure, they are generalities, but they are evidenced here and on TOW over and over and over and over again.

My posts are directed at those OW's who belittle someone's faith, accuse us of being capable of inflicting disgraceful hurt onto an innocent party, an adult OC, as if we are capable of such horrors after what BW's have endured. THEY (OW) are the only ones capable of inflicting extraordinary pain onto an innocent bystander. BW's know first hand what it is like to absorb immense pain from a stranger. Therefore, it is highly unlikely, if not impossible, for a BW to inflict pain or verbally beat up an OC (adult or otherwise) or be insensitive to him/her.

None of my remarks are directed to any Former Wayward Spouses-like you- who are working on their marriage! I understand your unique position and do not lump you in with the ones I am referring to.

OW who delight in BW pain, who accuse BW of attacking and torturing an adult OC, who minimize the marriage commitment and laugh at us for believing in God or being of a Christian faith (like most people are), hit us like this below the belt and fight unfairly because they don't have concrete, actual and authentic complaints about the BW other than nebulous and innaccurate accusations. Most of all, I hate the Christ and Christian bashing because it is meant to insult and demean the one thing that is profoundly all encompassing in all our lives.

I am a fallen Catholic and I don't gather with others in prayer but I pray and I believe. I am too sinful and angry to gain much favor with God, but I deeply believe in Him and I can't stand to listen to people bad-mouth Newbies in pain for clinging to the one thing that gives them some measure of peace and comfort in their immeasurable pain. And if the nest of vipers on TOW are attacking and mocking Newbies for finding God by shaming them in someway into feeling foolish by clinging to the Bible during their terrible times, borne of people like them who caused (in part) their suffering, then I think they have to be the most hideous and disgusting people who ever lived.

My comments are directed to OW who are grossly disrespectful, stupid beyond belief, who are the most bitter, the most hateful, the most mean spirited, unempathetic bytches imaginable. And I am mad as hell right now.

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

catnip

I am not offended. I understand all those feelings. I cant say for sure, but I would bet om's wife feels and says alot of the same things the bs's on here say. Would be normal for her to. She doesnt say i am a bad mother, Because she knows better. but she does have hate and contempt for me. You can be sure and I think thats ok, she is able for the most part to keep it to her self or vent to her husband. But we still have a goal we work on together and that is , She chose to be in my childs life. I didnt ask, nor did I ask for money. I ,like most here would have been ok if they dissapeared into oblivion. But OM decided he wanted to help me raise our child . So here we are.

Truth be told I envy those who are able to walk away with their child and never deal with this again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But I also do not have the right to deny him his rights, because I do believe He has the right to see his child if he wants to and I have a responsibility to make sure it is a positive experience for our child.

but you and I know om tends to be selfish and thinks mostly of himself at all times.

I have a little voice in my head that says MUST BE NICE at all times! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There have been some really great responses on here !!!!!
I have to be honest, I haven't read anything that changed my mind but there were some things that made me stop and think.
See how nice it can be when we all play well together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JTigger~

Will you share with us...what is your stance on the subject?

Also, which things made you stop and think?

I liked the question you posed. Very thought provoking.

Thanks!

~ad

catnip said:.............. Why should any BW care about the OC? She is not obliged to do so, even if she does care for the child. It ain't her problem...except to suffer financially...which is a problem that came out of nowhere and was laid at her feet--how fair is that? .................................

because it is a child. and yes we are obligated to care about them as Jesus said bring the children to me.

this does NOT mean that you have to take on the role of the oc's mother. just show compassion for them.

i think that what happens many times in these instances is the same on both sides. in the case of the ow she is hurting because the truth has come out that mm has lied to her and IN HER MIND abandoned her. so she lashes out at the easiest target she sees and that is the bw. the ow's anger is truely at the mm but since he wants nothing to do with her know ow strikes at his bw in an attempt to hurt him.

an example of this is when ow say they don't want bw around their child. this is not really directed at the bw it is an attempt to say they don't want mm around.

in the case of the bw striking back at the ow. i feel that bw's are so hurt and they know that the easiest way to strike back at ow is to treat her oc as if they didn't matter and/or was an insignificant being.

an example here is that when you omit an oc from your will is it to punish oc or ow? (AND I AM NOT SAYING THAT OC MUST BE IN THE WILL. SIBLINGS ARE LEFT OUT OF WILLS AND PROPERTIES DIVIDED UNEVENLY ALL THE TIME) just what is the real intent of this decision.

BOTH outbursts are misquided and off the mark.

believe me i understand what you are saying about dislikeing the ow and your reasons are sound in those instances where they apply. the same way i detest om/mm in situations like my own. if a mm wants to cheat on his w and place his marriage in jeopardy that is a choice he has the right to make. but why in hell doesn't he fool around with one of the millions of single women out there? what gives him the right to ruin a marriage and destroy a family changing the dynamics forever? all for what, a 15 second grunt!! i say this especially in my own case where om knew i was going to mc with fh to try and rebuild our marriage.

the point i am trying to get at is i can't just lump all mm who have become ws's into one category and generalize about them all. to do so would be for me to ignore the specifics of each one of your h's personal reasons for leading them into their A's. that to me would be insulting and belittleing of your h's.

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> I know this question has been asked a thousand times but I have yet to see an answer.
Please explain to me the way you view the difference between a woman putting a child up for adoption and a man walking away from a child.
Why is one abandonment and the other is not ?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It certainly makes you think about it... I think it's the thoughts behind the actions, if that makes sense? I think putting a child up for adoption is one of the most selfless things a mother could do for her child. Could I do it? No. I did think about it though, and thought long and hard about whether my child would be better off with a two parent family, or me. Call me selfish. Do I consider it abandonment that his father chose to walk away after being in his life for a year ? Yes. Some of the OW/xOW I know had pregnancies that were PLANNED. For someone to PLAN a pg and then walk away, is that abandonment? In my book it is. For someone that was in a R (any kind, not just an A) that ended up pg - if that person made it clear from day one that they were not interested in being a parent to that child? Do I consider that abandonment? Not really. They were up front FROM THE BEGINNING. But realities being what they are... These things happen. People have lied. Who KNOWS what the truth is half the time. But the reality is that there are usually two women that are very hurt and trying to rebuild the lives they choose and one man desperately trying to bury his head in the sand so he doesn't have to hear the screaming at both ends. xMM said to me one time that he felt like he was on a train ride and nobody would let him drive or tell him where he was going. He would go "hide" because he knew W was mad at him, I was mad at him, and he just wanted peace and quiet... At this point did I have sympathy for him? hardly...

In my own opinion (just mine - nobody elses), I think that giving a child up for adoption because that is the best thing for ALL involved is a great option. I think giving a child up for adoption because you're forced or berated into it is wrong. Or just because the father doesn't want it. BUT... I'm talking about consenting adults here, not teenagers, victims of rape, etc. Everyone is different. They deal with things differently. What works for me, probably wouldn't work for the woman next door.

Sorry for the noveletta... I can't seem to write short posts here..

***what is your stance on the subject?***

I think adoption is the most selfless act a person can make. And probably the most difficult decision a parent makes.
But....
A parent gives a child up for adoption because for what ever reason at that time in their lives they feel they are unable to or unwilling to parent that child. Is it an easy decision ? NO.
I feel a man walks away from a child because he feels that at that particular time in his life he is unable or unwilling to parent that child. Is it an easy decision ? NO.
I don't see the difference in the two.
I agree with Joshmom. If a man makes it clear from the start that he has NO interest in having a child I don't see how it can be viewd as abandonment. I think it is his right not to be forced into parenthood. I think that it is unrealistic to say to a man.." look, I know you didn't plan on a child and you really don't want one but now that it is here I expect you to put all those feelings behind you and love and parent this child ".
Now, with that being said, I think if a man helped plan a P, or was involved with the child and then walked away because he changed his mind I think that makes him pond scum.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong> I think if a man helped plan a P, or was involved with the child and then walked away because he changed his mind I think that makes him pond scum. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= Amen. I agree completely. You have offered two logical examples that should be the only criteria constituting abandonment. If the WS/MM did either or both of these things, he is indeed scum. He did indeed abandon.

But, if he made it crystal clear from the beginning he didn't want a child, then it is his right to walk away and just pay support if all the decisions about having and keeping said child has been taken out of his hands and without his consent.

It is troubling that there are so many women out there that are so gullible and naive to believe any MM and get pregnant, plan a pregnancy or allow themselves to get pregnant when they know the person they are fooling around with is married...despite the predictable declarations that MM "is getting divorced" as that phrase is standard issue and has been done to death through the ages and everybody knows it. But I suppose when in the throes of the A, these women think their situation is unique and special and the rules don't apply to them. Then there is the anger and the expectations that never come to fruition and a kid that OW feels guilty about and sees as abandoned. It's so sad.

Cat =^^=

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB]
Some of the OW/xOW I know had pregnancies that were PLANNED.

=^^= Were the MM on board with this planning as well? I know there are some out there I suppose, but I just can't imagine any MM (unless it is an Exit Affair) painting himself into a corner by planning a pregnancy with someone other than spouse while married to spouse...especially if he already has children. I can kind of see it if he has no kids and his spouse is infertile, I suppose, but the decent thing would be to divorce first. I wonder if these men get caught up in the excitement and fantasy of another life with someone else and the unknown possibilities (not realizing it would just be more of the same, different face) and just muse "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we had a kid together"...and then the OW, caught up in her fantasy, sees this as the green light to go ahead and flush those pills down the can. I bet a lot of OW hang on to and translate those off-hand comments as "planning a pregnancy" in their desperation to have a child and jump start their fantasy life and to inspire MM to divorce like he said he would. Then it all prdictably backfires. What a mess.

For someone to PLAN a pg and then walk away, is that abandonment? In my book it is. For someone that was in a R (any kind, not just an A) that ended up pg - if that person made it clear from day one that they were not interested in being a parent to that child? Do I consider that abandonment? Not really. They were up front FROM THE BEGINNING.

=^^= This explanation that both you and Jtigger have given are perhaps the best examples of abandonment I've seen put out there because it clearly states what true abandonment is. Thanks. Let's put that in a rule book somewhere to post when we have these abandonment debates that get so muddy.

Catnip =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong>
It is troubling that there are so many women out there that are so gullible and naive to believe any MM and get pregnant, plan a pregnancy or allow themselves to get pregnant when they know the person they are fooling around with is married...despite the predictable declarations that MM "is getting divorced" as that phrase is standard issue and has been done to death through the ages and everybody knows it. But I suppose when in the throes of the A, these women think their situation is unique and special and the rules don't apply to them. Then there is the anger and the expectations that never come to fruition and a kid that OW feels guilty about and sees as abandoned. It's so sad.

Cat =^^= </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When in the throes of the A - I truly "did" believe xMM that our situation WAS unique, special and that he really DID love me like no other. Mea culpa mea culpa... I was young, naive, foolish and didn't know any better. It took a year after having my son that I finally wisened up. Why so long? Who knows... But I DID finally realize what kind of person he truly was. I've talked to a couple of people that were in A's since then, and the first things out of their mouths is "but our situation is different....". My first thoughts? Just wait. You'll see that it's not. I gave a good friend advice one time - told her to tell him that she was pg and see how fast he ran in the other direction and then see how special she is.
That being said... I will never EVER feel guilty about my son. He is the best thing that ever happened to me and will ALWAYS be loved no matter what he does or who he looks like <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I will always feel guilty about my part in the affair, but at this point in my life, it is in my past. Not my present or my future. I take the hard lessons that I've learned into my future, but I'm not bitter because of them, and I don't let them hold me back from living my life the best way I know possible, or being the best parent I can be.
As an aside.... It's "funny" (not ha ha) that all the bickering is done between the OW/xOW and BW/xW and the one person that is TRULY responsible for the whole mess doesn't speak at all. It reminds me of junior high when these two girls used to fight - literally fistfight - over this boy Bobby. What did he do? Let it run it's course, and in the end, he chose who he wanted to be with. But he played the two of them against each other to the HILT. Went out with both of them (not at the same time, though). I think that situation is similar to what happens in real "adult" life too, sadly. And Bobby? Turned out to be an unbelievably nasty man - he married one of the girls (the one that won the most fistfights, I believe) and she was a SAHM, they had 2 girls, and they ended up divorced and they lived in a "good ole' boy" state where he knew a lot of people in the system - he took the girls away from her and left her with nothing. She's spent the years since fighting to get them back. But he had the money, so he continues to win. And where are the girls? With his parents. Because he's remarried, and they interfered with his new life, new wife, and new baby. Probably makes her wish she'd lost a few of those fistfights, huh? What's my point? Awwww, who knows... Just an example of life, I guess.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pops:
[QB] catnip said:.............. Why should any BW care about the OC? She is not obliged to do so, even if she does care for the child. It ain't her problem...except to suffer financially...which is a problem that came out of nowhere and was laid at her feet--how fair is that? .................................

because it is a child. and yes we are obligated to care about them as Jesus said bring the children to me.

=^^= I know it is a child, Pops! A sweet little girl I would love to meet. I think. I am also scared of her. I'd hate to fall in love with her and have OW yank her away, but that is beside the point. What I said initially is TRUE. She is still not my problem ...but it is true that her existence causes me a lot of financial angst. But, ya know, that's OK. I've learned to live with it and cope and I don't begrudge it even if I grumble because I'm uncomfortable and spoiled. But, facts ARE facts...it really ain't my problem or responsibility.

That being said....I adore the kid next door, but he's not my responsibility or problem either except in the sense that as neighbors we watch out for these neighborhood kids, buy cookies from them, but Christmas wreaths from them, donate to their school or scouts and get together for summer neighborhood picnics. They are absolutely precious and I adore each and every one of them. And (shock!!!) they love mean ole Catnip because I am funny and warm and fuss over them. These kids are wonderful gifts from God, charming, hilarious, interesting and it is amazing to watch them grow into teens and beyond and it tugs at the heartstrings. And when I have said in the past that OC is no more important than the kids in the neighborhood, well I think that's pretty important. I just mean, they aren't my direct responsiblity even though we all have a kind of responsibility to look after and care about all the kids. I'm not d'ising the kids or OC in the least...just explaining how a BW might view an OC, especially one she has never met. Meeting and becoming involved with OC is a whole 'nuther ball game entirely. You develop feelings and a relationship, you fall in love with kid and always worry that OW will stop the contact and you're left with yet another loss and heartache. Since you have your Grace living in your home, you are free to love her and not worry about her being whisked away after you've invested so much of your heart.



this does NOT mean that you have to take on the role of the oc's mother. just show compassion for them.

=^^= I do, for crying out loud. Just because I say we are not responsible (true) and it is not our problem (true) does not mean in any way that there is not compassion, care, tender thoughts and wishes that come with that hefty CS. We gotta get you something for that soft heart of yours because it makes you think and act like some of us are abusive or something towards OC.


i think that what happens many times in these instances is the same on both sides. in the case of the ow she is hurting because the truth has come out that mm has lied to her and IN HER MIND abandoned her.

=^^= Undoubtably, Pops, but then...how does a woman like that become so gullible to BELIEVE the cad to begin with? Is she KNOWS he is married, doesn't that wave a red flag, never mind doing the right thing and what is decent...like walk away from the situation...or give the kids of the M some thought or consideration ...like she is demanding from everyone for her OC? While I understand the thought process behind it, I just wonder what they expected or why they thought they were exempt from the obvious outcome of all of it. It has to be supreme ego, incredible selfishness or stupidity to think they were the one exception to the rule and that MM would leave W and BC for her when he already is busy building a life, probably for decades, with someone else. It's not something most men walk away from under any circumstances. Not many men are willing to throw away a whole family for one OW and OC. Besides, during the A, MM/WS was abandoning his W and BC, so the Betrayed know first hand what abandonment feels like. That's why Betrayeds are hard pressed to feel any real empathy for an OW who has calculated and set out to ruin her life and that of her kids...especially when OW are so cantankerous, combative and rude.



so she lashes out at the easiest target she sees and that is the bw. the ow's anger is truely at the mm but since he wants nothing to do with her know ow strikes at his bw in an attempt to hurt him.

=^^= Someone hand me a hankie.


an example of this is when ow say they don't want bw around their child. this is not really directed at the bw it is an attempt to say they don't want mm around.

=^^= I understand this, but then the reverse holds true as well...so therefore, it's a wash.


in the case of the bw striking back at the ow. i feel that bw's are so hurt and they know that the easiest way to strike back at ow is to treat her oc as if they didn't matter and/or was an insignificant being.

=^^= Maybe initially like right after D-day this "might" be true, but it is much bigger and broader than that in my mind. I don't think that any BW does that for those reasons. I think a BW (I'll use me as an example) isn't out to hurt OW and definitely not OC. I never looked for revenge or to cause OW any discomfort or unhappiness. If I did, trust me, I would know how and I would have done it. I am really good at exacting revenge if I want to. Really good. I could have made her life a living hell but I knew she was struggling (well, maybe not struggling with all that cash) to raise that little girl on her own but I didn't want any "upset" to filter down to kid. She is my prime concern. But, compared to my own kids and my own family and the peace within the home and my life as I knew it, I would like to keep that status quo without a lot of drama because life is short and difficult enough and I had no say in any decision. So, in that respect, OC IS secondary to MY family and my kids because I do not know her personally and probably never will because she is a bazillion miles away with a mom who states she just wants money and doesn't want contact. But that's my situation. I think other BW who say OC doesn't matter do not mean that the OC is not worthy of love or a wonderful life, they just mean that OC is no more important than any other kid on their block in the big scheme of things. That always changes if contact can be successfully established. I think what everyone has to do is understand that this child is not related to BW and that any love or bonding has to be allowed by OW in order for this kid to become a part of BW's family.


an example here is that when you omit an oc from your will is it to punish oc or ow?

=^^= God, NO! It is strictly to prevent the anyone...ANYONE...from waltzing in to claim a share of the estate while members of the family are grieving...perhaps from someone no one even knows about. Ya know, Pops...sometimes it has nothing to do with OC or OW and it is just practical stuff and self preservation and not intended to cause insult or injury to anyone else...just protecting one's own assets.



believe me i understand what you are saying about dislikeing the ow and your reasons are sound in those instances where they apply.

=^^= But ya know, it isn't because she banged my husband or any jealousy reasons at all. It's because I found out about the A almost the day it started and I called her. I was so kind to her and I told her how sick my husband was and that he was suffering from mental illness and that I had been trying to get him help. I begged her to please not see him and she was vicious and snarling and threatening to me. She didn't even know him yet and had nothing emotionally invested in him yet and she still went ahead with the affair and within three weeks she was pregnant. The brief A ended with D-day #2 (the pregnancy)...D-day #1 happened as it all happened from the beginning. It was weird watching the A beginning, sustain and then end all within a month and see the wreckage it left in its wake. Here we had a perfect opportunity for preventative measures, doing the right thing, compassion, care, dignity and most of all, honor...and I got threats of a restraining order (on one phone call!!!!) for harassament. My plea was considered harassment. She wanted what she wanted and I didn't matter, my kids didn't matter, our life didn't matter. But that was then...all water under the bridge. My dislike of OW is because she had no heart, no compassion, no honor. I could have changed my position and attitude towards her if she weren't so vindictive, but she acts like this was a long term affair with all the bells and whistles and a lot of emotional investment. Her bitterness and resentment must be incredible because she isn't happy with the $1500 smackers every month...she managed to get a judgment on my husband for arrears that he hs been faithfully paying $200 a month on for three years and that were based on BOTH of our salaries (illegal). She had his DL revoked and I still don't know how she did that except she wasted no time when he was laid off for a couple months and he didn't get a paycheck and the CS was delayed...she marched right down to family court (oxymoron) and had them yank his passport, too. Oh, she's a pip. But I don't have any hate for her, and I neither like nor dislike her...she's just a huge problem (in more ways than one...hahahaha) to my peace of mind at times. She makes me unnecessarily busy chasing my tail trying to get appeals completed and sent in, ringing up attorney fees...ugh. It's the not caring to begin with followed by the intrusions and legal surprises that come out of nowhere like a bolt from the blue.



but why in hell doesn't he fool around with one of the millions of single women out there? what gives him the right to ruin a marriage and destroy a family changing the dynamics forever? all for what, a 15 second grunt!!

=^^= It's that involuntary muscle spasm with some strange for a momentary thrill. And doing it with someone unavailable is a thrill too, because for a moment, one brief moment, they can feel like they have been chosen over someone else and that strokes the ego. It's an illusion, but sometimes when someone doesn't have a lot on the ball, it's enough. It's sad.



i say this especially in my own case where om knew i was going to mc with fh to try and rebuild our marriage.

=^^= It's kind of like my situation too because OW knew my hhusband was mentally ill and needed help and that an A would push him over the edge...and didn't care. Neither of our OP's cared but went ahead anyway with knowledge of the situation.


the point i am trying to get at is i can't just lump all mm who have become ws's into one category and generalize about them all. to do so would be for me to ignore the specifics of each one of your h's personal reasons for leading them into their A's. that to me would be insulting and belittleing of your h's.

=^^= That's true, however, the generalities are there and have been written in psychology books forever as a basic guide to the human psyche. We can all disect our own specific situations with our own special circumstances and find a million reasons "why" just to be fair...but this is not a fair situation and none of us have the time or wherewithall to do so, so on this board, we are stuck with basic generalities that can be rearranged for each of us according to our own special cicrcumstances. We can all take what we like or need and leave the rest and apply it as we see fit.

Cat =^^=

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by JoshMom:
[QB]
Some of the OW/xOW I know had pregnancies that were PLANNED.

=^^= Were the MM on board with this planning as well? I know there are some out there I suppose, but I just can't imagine any MM (unless it is an Exit Affair) painting himself into a corner by planning a pregnancy with someone other than spouse while married to spouse...especially if he already has children. I can kind of see it if he has no kids and his spouse is infertile, I suppose, but the decent thing would be to divorce first. I wonder if these men get caught up in the excitement and fantasy of another life with someone else and the unknown possibilities (not realizing it would just be more of the same, different face) and just muse "Gee, wouldn't it be great if we had a kid together"...and then the OW, caught up in her fantasy, sees this as the green light to go ahead and flush those pills down the can. I bet a lot of OW hang on to and translate those off-hand comments as "planning a pregnancy" in their desperation to have a child and jump start their fantasy life and to inspire MM to divorce like he said he would. Then it all prdictably backfires. What a mess.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Each situation is unique unto itself
xMM and I talked about having kids one day, what they would look like, etc. But do I consider my son planned with him? No. He was definitely an "oops". Not a mistake by any stretch, an OOPS. And when xMM asked me if I'd change my son's last name to his if we got married? I laughed, knowing at that point that he was full of shyte. I'm talking about PLANNED as in "let's have a baby together". There are plenty of women that have babies to hang onto the life that they have, married women included. How many times do you hear of a W that gets pregnant to hang onto a marriage? I remember there was a BW here a while ago whose H had an OC and she desperately wanted another child. He didn't. She ended up pg. Was that planned by both of them? Was he happy about it?

*edited to fix my italics..

<small>[ March 31, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: JoshMom ]</small>