Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 741
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 741
First... Please forgive me for the length of this post.
Second... Before you reply to it, please be sure to read it all...

Because I am one of the few that have contact, I feel that there are many sides of Contact that are not addressed... Plus, I wanted to be able to give those new to this pain, a little bit of understanding and some hope... No matter which way they choose.

Thank you...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is it possible to make contact work??? The pros and cons...
How to decide what is best for you and how to handle your decision, either way...

Yes… there are ways to make it work.

Many ask… What are the pros and cons of contact?
The pros and cons differ with each circumstance…
You must weigh them against each other to find the right balance for your situation.
One thing you must remember, NO 2 situations are alike. What works for one situation may not work for another… You and your spouse must use the POJA to come to the right decision for your family.

There are factors in each situation that are the same.. BS, WS, OP & OC
They are universal… BUT.. Each BS, WS, OP & OC are different. No 2 people are identical. Each of us has different personalities… We deal with things differently.
The personalities of the “sides”(OP, WS & BS) is going to be the ultimate basis for the decision… Can they peacefully co-exist?
If they cannot co-exist peacefully, then C would not be peaceful.
That is not to say that the “sides” have to like one another.
But in choosing C, it is imperative that the “sides” are able to work together towards the common goal of a well-raised child, the OC.

What are the pros and cons… Here are some examples…
Pros… For Contact
1. The OC is shown love from both sides
2. The OC loves both sides
3. OC knows his/her siblings from both sides
4. Knowledge of the OC is out in the open

Cons… Against Contact…
1. WS or OP still in fog and causing BS worry that relationship could begin again
2. OP using OC to cause problems
3. Children of the marriage having difficulties dealing with addition of OC to their lives
4. OC having difficulties with the addition of the WS & BS to his/her life.
5. Disrupting everyone’s lives. No one is happy with C.

Now remember, these are just examples of possible Pros and Cons… For and Against Contact…

There are also Pros and Cons for and against No Contact…

Pros… for No Contact… more examples…
1. OP is not around, therefore less tension for WS and BS, easier to work on marriage
2. OC is not bounced back and forth from house to house.
3. Children of the marriage do not feel threatened by the addition of OC

Cons … Against No Contact
1. OC does not know one of his/her bioparent
2. OC does not know siblings from one side…
3. Possibly a higher cost of child support


Again, examples…. For and Against NO Contact.

When the WS and BS get to a point that they are able to discuss making the decision for or against Contact… they must be able to come to a decision together via POJA. They must base it on what is best for their family.. For their children. They must weigh every aspect of what it could cost their family… not only financially, but emotionally. Their main concern should be their immediate family. The marital union came before the A… thus should be the priority… Then the OC’s needs should be considered… the OP’s needs and wants should not be a factor in any decision…

You hear some say,
DO it for the Child… A father should have contact with his child…
That is not always an option… there are circumstances that can cause it to be a toxic situation for not only the BS, but for the children of the marriage and yes, even the OC as well.
Not only can the OP be immature and have total disregard for the BS or the children of the marriage, but there are cases of the BS being immature as well, showing no regard for the OP or the OC.
No matter which side displays the immaturity, it is wrong.

Why would an adult use a child as a weapon of hatred against anyone? What does it accomplish??? Nothing, except to cause pain to the OC…
Its actually no better than the way children have been used in Wars around the world… using them as an “innocent looking bomb”… sending the child into the midst of the “enemy” and blowing them to bits… Totally destroying the child as well…
This may be a graphic way to look at it… but in essence it is what has been done to some OCs by one “side” or the other. Using the child to “get back at” the BS or at the OP. What a cruel thing to do to a child’s self esteem and/or emotional state.

As for myself, I have said this before… I would have been against contact completely… had the OW been a “stable” person. If she could have cared for Lil Bit, then I would have had no qualms about moving on with our lives. But because of the circumstances… OW allowed abuse to be a normal part of her life and the life of her son… I could not in good conscience just have No Contact…

My situation is not a measuring stick, to which I measure the situation of others… It is just that.. My situation…

Add up the pros and cons of YOUR situation… and find the balance… After you find that balance and are able to come to a Joint Agreement with your spouse, be confident in that decision… Stand firm…

There have been situations where the WS and BS have had contact, then to have the OP be extremely difficult and impossible to work with… thus causing the WS and BS to rethink their decision… and end contact. When C becomes a toxic situation, why would you continue? You don’t have to feel obligated to continue to poison your family and marriage. Your first priority is to the marital union and family.
On the other hand, should the situation become toxic for the OP then it should be their first priority to protect their family as well. No one should be forced to stay in any type of toxic situation.

If the WS, BS & OP choose contact… then both “sides” need to be clear on the goal… a well-raised child. There should be no bickering in front of the child. Compromise… POJA should also come into play when dealing with raising the OC… The child must always feel that everyone is looking out for his/her best interests… No matter which “side” the OC is spending time with. Be aware the Dynamics of Contact will change as the OC gets older… every child goes through stages. It’s a fact of life. Expect the unexpected.
I know that this is more than likely NOT the way things DO work out… but it is how it SHOULD work out…

There are good reasons and bad reasons for ending contact… There are good reasons and bad reasons for BEGINNING contact…
When making the choice… either way, be confident that your choice is the best for your family.
Do not allow anyone to tell you that you made the wrong decision. If you and your spouse have used the POJA to come to a decision, then why should anyone else’s opinion matter? It doesn’t. It’s your family, your decision. Stand Firm.

Contact is hard… BUT it is possible to make it work. It takes a lot of work… and patience… and above all else… FORGIVENESS… Without forgiveness, you cannot focus on the here and now... you continue to focus on the past…
I have forgiven Mr Lee and OW… I have voiced it to Mr Lee… but not to the OW… It does not matter if she knows or not… I know, and that is the main thing. I am able to look past the pain that Mr Lee and OW caused me… and see the beautiful little life that I am helping to mold. Knowing that she loves me, and that she knows I love her, is worthwhile to me.

Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 901
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 901
Hey there Stacia!!


I just wanted you to know that when married "we" chose NC. I thought he was doing it for the marriage, but he wasnt. He was doing it so he wouldnt have to face responsibility for anything, not that he worked on our marriage either....hence why we WERE married. He now has NC with our own children, so it just shows he is scum period. I know that isnt the case with most who choose NC. Most I think are whole-heartedly trying to repair their marriage, and are those who choose C.

Now it is kinda funny...since the divorce I have met OW1 and OC. They are even invited and probably coming (from Az to Tx) to my wedding in Sept. My children have met OC even though they dont know and are too young to know that they are half siblings. They did hit it off immediately though. Can you imagine??!! It was really an experience!

Love

bw

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,047
B
B61 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,047
Stacia,

Thanks for an excellent post! I hope to benefit from your words one day.

Right now H has contact, but OW is being problematic & refusing to let the baby come to our home. We have issues to work out, & that may or may not happen. In my situation however I have no problem w/ contact. I have never blamed the baby or would seek to hurt her in anyway, she is innocent & didn't ask to be born into this situation.

In a perfect world OW would stop playing games & realize that my H does not want to be w/ her, do what is best for her D & be happy that her D has a step mom who is more than willing to love her & be in her life, but... not the case. I pray one day that she will wake up from her own "fog". If not though I know I tried to make a negative situation a positive one & that is all God requires of me. The baby is the one who will lose out in the long run due to her mothers selfish actions. Of course H has to step up to the plate also & decide what is more important our M or catering to OW's demands. If he ever does this & OW grows up I know this child would have more love than she could ever imagine.

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,607
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,607
Stacie Lee,

Thank you for sharing this very balanced view on the contact issue. Haven't read very many that were this "fair" to all parties involved. So I want to commend you for the great job you did with it. I just wish everyone was as open minded as you appear to be. I am confident that it will definatly touch someone and help their lives.

If nothing else perhaps it can get someone out there to think in a way they may not have considered before. (We are all guilty at times of not thinking "outside" of our own emotions and experiences).

I just wish there was more evidence of these WH, reading the material provided here on this board. I almost only generally read of the BW posting and learning here. That is a problem.

In any case, Wishing you continued success as you deal with this most problematic situation. Take care.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
stacia, you made your points and I'm not sure if there was a question. Good points though.

I think, unless the OC is from your WW that C w/ OC will never work.

Someone will always have to compromise and niether parent will want to be the one to "always" do that becaues they think thier opinion/choice is the BEST thing for OC.

If you think what you want for OC is the BEST then why would you give that up? Every one wants what is BEST for thier children, no matter if it is OC or BC.

That is the root of all of our problems w/ C. We have compromised while OW is not willing. OW thinks she has compromised on what she thinks is BEST for OC by "allowing" OC to have her father signifigantly in her life, not just a "disneydad" who is only there for fun on the weekends. OW would have preffered that.

So do we keep compromising on things that we think are BEST for OC? OR are even just reasonable compromises? We have been more than willing to meet OW 1/2 way on issues while she does not want that. I don't know if that is because it is her bitterness of not having my H, bitterness of not having anyone or bitterness of the choices she refuses to acknowledge that SHE made for herself. I don't really care what it is only that OW would stop thinking only of herself, but then H is accused of only thinking of himself. IT goes 'round and 'round.

I WISH OW would just take a good hard look, open her eyes and really SEE this life we are in. I wish she would really SEE the part she played in this devastation that was caused in my family. ANd I know wishes are useless. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

We're sincerely trying to do the right thing here and the more we try the more we are confused & filled w/ hopelessness that it will just never work but still.........we are trying, really trying.

It seems pointless at times, most of the time. I know better than to seek affirmation from OC, what 6 yo tells their parent thanks for being my parent? That's ridiculous but after 2 years, to hear OC call only OW and her sibling on OW's side "her family" and to hear OC say she wants OW to get a H so OC can have a "daddy". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

That is what we have been trying to do, give OC something she didn't have, a daddy and w/ that comes a whole 'other' family......then OW says OC is emotionally disturbed by us being a presence in OC life! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

The only solution I can see is to move far away, far, far away so ending C can be justified. I don't see that, realistically happening so...here we are. Maybe C will "work" better for us if we just start giving OW everything she wants. Then there is no arguments right? Everyone gets "along". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
*********
*********
Many say that C will be hard because it will be a constant reminder to BS of the A and betrayal. That may or may not be true but I think that something many overlook is that it is a CONSTANT reminder to the WS. Who wants to be reminded of all the pain they caused, thier own stupidity, their own selfishness, and how they risked thier wife, family & enitire LIFE, for ...... 'THAT'?

Seeing OC is almost like a constant punishment. "look what you did!" "look what you did!" "look what you did!" "look, look, look, YOU did THIS!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Who wants that? Talk about strain on a marriage?

I am reminded of the book, The Scarlet Letter. I forget thier names but the 'adultress' never felt ashamed or embarrassed by her child or her behavior. She eventually came to embrace [her letter A]it and wear it almost as a badge of honor. While the priest (or reverend, or whatever) was overcome by guilt and shame constantly. His 'sin' was hidden and yet by seeing both his lover and thier child he was reminded of it and couldn't escape his guilt over his 'sin'. He was tortured by this.

I know there is more to the book than just that but it is the idea.

The WS knows what they did was WRONG and so are rightly tortured by it and the consequences of it. Many [single] OW are not, they did not make or break any vows to BS and so, feel no guilt, shame or embarrassment and cannot possibly understand the dynamics in the 'other' home.
*********
*********

This is only what I think based on my own experience.

<small>[ April 30, 2004, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 285
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 285
Thanks Stacia Lee for the post.

The OC in my life is not born yet. It is good to see different points of view on the C issue, because I am not sure what I think is best yet. It may not really matter since H is still not living at home or working on M. If he decides to D, then I guess I won't have to worry about making the decision. I know H wants to be a part of OC's life. I worry about my kids though. I do not blame the OC for this situation, and I don't believe that I would have a problem caring for this child. But if the presence of OC is harmful to my kids, then my BC come first. But how do you know that until some sort of C is made?

Has anyone had a good outcome w/ OW/OC situation where the adults all act like adults and behave for the sake of all the kids? Is it possible for all parties to get along for the best interest of all? Just wondering if anyone had that type of experience. Some of the stories I read here just scare me. Why is it so hard to forgive and move on?

Kris

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,163
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,163
kt

in time if both parties truly want whats best for the child in question, it isnt so hard to compromise. For both parties.

pretty soon your both on the same page and neither party feels they are being short changed.

The child feels he/she can love all parties and siblings on both sides. The child grows up knowing two parents love her and work together to make sure she has a good life and is safe and secure

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,028
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,028
I think the biggest question is can all act like Adults? If that is the case then I think C w/ OC could be ok. But if the OW is still trying to come between you and your H then NO. If the OW relizes that you and H are going to make your M work and does not interfere then yes. But tell me how often that happens? Our OC is not here yet but we have chosen C. And I am willing to be an Adult! I think if everyone can be possitive about it then the children (BS & OC) will feel that and feed off of it. But if it is nothing but conflict then the children will feed off of that. And at that time C would not be good. I think it depends on the 3 SO CALLED ADULTS, to do what is best for ALL the children envolved. I think every situation is different and no one way is the right way for everyone. When the games stop and all can act like the adults God intended for us to be, then the children will not suffer because of something they had no control over. Just my two cents
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13
I
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
I
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13
How do you know if all the parties can be adults in situation with out first trying it out, Then is it fair to start contact with oc and then stop contact because of game playing.To me that seems more traumatic. How do you expect two of the 3 to act like adults when their behavior in the past has been otherwise. If the parents of the oc were acting as adults would we even be in the situation. I think you are expecting two people to act like stand up parents, the same two people that lie and cheat on others including children of the marriage.

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,028
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,028
Well first of all the lies and cheating are said to be over. If your working on your M, and the OW relizes she is just the XOW, and is over the fact that the WS has gone back to his W and only cares for the warfare of the OC and the fact that it needs to grow up "stable" since we have chosen C all parties have to be ADULTS. We are grown and people do make mistakes and THANK GOD there was Jesus to washes away our sins. BUT if you have a physco XOW then it will never work. No one likes rejection and most OW feel that. But when they also come out of their FOG, then all parties need to be adults. Forgiveness is the hardest thing to do. And lord knows I am working on it. I pray that the OW will see the pain she has caused and descide to do what is best for all parties. Or am I living in a dream world? .
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> sunny

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
sunny wrote:WS has gone back to his W and only cares for the warfare of the OC...
**********
**********
I know this was only a typo and you meant to write WELFARE of the OC.......but I have to say, so far C w/ OC has FELT like warfare!
********
********
_________________________________
mof5 wrote:kt

in time if both parties truly want whats best for the child in question, it isnt so hard to compromise. For both parties.

pretty soon your both on the same page and neither party feels they are being short changed.

The child feels he/she can love all parties and siblings on both sides. The child grows up knowing two parents love her and work together to make sure she has a good life and is safe and secure
__________________________________

Don't see that happening yet nor do I predict it will happen anytime in the near future. And believe me, I am really trying my best here. We (ALL 3 adults) have even gone to counseling together last summer to try to learn to "work together" and OW made many "agreements" in front of the therapist but as soon as that was over---back to her same old STOW self. So now, we are going to do it AGAIN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Because OW claims OC is STILL suffering from "emotional problems", <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> puuuuuhleeze! I call them "behavioral problems".

Now tell me who is NOT trying here?

Have you ever heard of a BS going to therapy WITH an OW?

This is utterly ridiculous. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But you know what mof5, part of what you wrote really IS absolutely correct, 'if BOTH parties truly want what's best for the child then it is not hard to compromise', I agree, maybe that's why WE are the ones willing to compromise and OW is NOT! Because WE want what is BEST for OC while OW wants what SHE wants for OC!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
************
************
You know what? I am just really PO'd @ this entire SICK situation right now! I really am. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

The idea of "therapy" again, is just making me absolutely, physically sick to my stomach and we haven't even made the 1st appointment yet!

<small>[ May 02, 2004, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,163
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,163
kt

I would think turmoil could cause emotional problems that would result in behavioral problems in any parental situation that isnt completely peaceful. Happens all the time. Maybe not all the parties are able to seperate themselves from the emotional side of it to parent effectively.

I cant help but wonder when you refer to a child as "THis" that the frustration you feel doesnt come through to the child in question. Children are very perceptive!

It says alot that you were willing to go to counseling together to work things out. If you know you did all you can do then rest easy and dont work so hard. If your forcing your self, i would imagine only resentment would show through and In your postings I get the feeling you resent this child and this intrusion. maybe your just not ready yet, and maybe you never will be.

No one expects you to automatically love a child you did not raise as your own. Sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesnt.

We have spent many many hours working on this parenting agreement together to make sure it works. Now difference is, i have the samll children and he has the adult children my age. All parties have now come to love and enjoy our daughters company.

We work really hard to work with each others schedules, We also double check each others rules so we have the same at both houses, ;ess confusion fo little one. little things like, bed time, and ritual at bed time. Tv time, if I said no to her , and she ask him, he calls and ask what I told her and then abides by it. I do the same. We dont have set times, I just accomadate them when they want time, we make time every week and of course he calls her every day and sees her for lunch about three times a week. We share pictures equally, and attend dr. appts together.

I go shopping with his wife, if there is a special occasion to shop for, I invite her to come to activities, she is welcome to call or email daughter any day she pleases. I dont know at first is was difficult, and a pain, but now it seems pretty routine. All my children have adjusted to it and dont seem to mind.

While it isnt always idea , it has worked and I pray will continue to work. I think the main thing has been for all four of us is to show respect to each other in front of any and all children , after all This is her family also, I could never be rude or hurt someone she loved. and I believe they do the same.

we never speak of personal things, we only speak of daughter and what she may or may not be doing, learning! We share the funny stuff she does as well. So I am comforted by the fact that i dont miss as much. hard for us mamma's to let go of our babies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am sorry it isnt working for you, but You should know it takes all people involved. Cant do it alone. But I would hope there are some who know it can and does work at times.

<small>[ May 02, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 741
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 741
kt
Are you, your H and OW working as a team to raise the OC? It doesn’t sound like it. You mention time and again the fact that OW goes back on the agreements that you all make between yourselves…

Truth be known, our OW doesn’t work with us either… BUT, we inform her at each visitation exchange any new thing, every medicine, every attempt to break Lil Bit of her pacifier, potty training issues… we draw her into these things, treating her the way that we would want to be treated. She is, of course, the child’s mother, whether or not she acts like it.

I understand that there are circumstances when either side may have difficultly coming to compromise. But I hope when that becomes a problem, we are able to talk to her rationally and come to an agreement. It is definitely a wish and a prayer… and as you put it, Wishes are useless… but Prayer is not.

If the OW in your case, wants nothing to do with you… Why do you persist? Does it benefit the OC to have you and her mother bickering? Whether in front of her or behind her back, it does no good for her. Does the counseling seem to help at all? It seems that her mother only wants a “part-time Daddy” when it is convenient for her, the OW.

You have said many times that your H is not happy with contact… You say OW is not happy… You say BC are not completely happy… Even the OC is starved for the love a father should be able to give to his child… yet, your H cannot feel comfortable giving her that love and attention.
I am confused. Why continue with contact if it is such a toxic situation for all involved?
It seems unfair to place the BC, let alone the OC, in this type of situation.

As long as the OW and you (you and your H) are unable to work together, C will always be an inconvenience to all involved and the OC will not benefit in anyway.

Don’t get me wrong… I believe that NC is the best way to go for most marriages/families. And I believe that C is hard, and if you CHOOSE to have C then I think that decision should not be made lightly.

My biggest concern in your case is that you do not sound as if you care much for the OC. At times you sound as if she is an intrusion in your life, your home. I can understand those feelings… but it IS something that you chose to do.

It sounds like your H would like to end contact, yet you seem to be pushing him to continue. Why? Some days you sound positive then on others negative, about the contact you have with the OC. But honestly, most days it sounds like its all about the money…

Just trying to understand you & your situation, kt… it puzzles me to no end.
Why would anyone want to continue feeling as if they are in a “war?”

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

BabyGirl93 & KrisM

Yes, you are right.. In a Perfect World… We do not live in a perfect world. But we must make the best of what we have.
The OW in our case would rather that I was not in the picture at all. BUT I am here and I am not going anywhere… I also realize that it is unlikely for her to be going anywhere either… So, I must deal with her as best as I can.

Have you heard of the phrases, “Fake it till you make it” or “You can catch more flies with honey than you can vinegar” or perhaps “Be Sweet to them and heap coals of fire on their head?”
I have had to use each of these types of ways to deal with my H’s xW… and I got pretty good at it.. so, it was only a natural transition for me to use those same patterns with the OW.

Knowing that H’s xW was Momma and that H was Daddy, and I was the proverbial “outsider’ I learned to make my own niche, so to speak. With my stepson, I learned to listen to him… help him understand why his parents were bickering all the time. I became his safe place to vent… I was not just his friend, but he also respected me.
He was 8 when I met him… and now, he is 19… He still respects me… but he has none for either of his parents… All because of the toxic situation afforded to him, mainly by his mother.. The Custodial parent. She told lies to him.. thus poisoning him against his father, then he learned of the lies and began to turn against her as well… it’s a horrible way to grow up.

Before OC was proven to be H’s child, we discussed it. H wanted contact. I did not. As we learned of the OW’s history (domestic violence, her son removed from her custody) my heart softened.. How could we allow that woman to raise H’s child alone? Then using the POJA, we came to an agreement about how we would proceed.

In our case, the OW didn’t really want the OC. She just didn’t want the MM to have her either. Over time she showed her true colors and we now have Primary Custody. She still has visitation, but doesn’t seem interested in parenting Lil Bit at all…

Keep trying to follow the MB principles… Only good can come of it.. Good that will last you the rest of your lives… No matter if you divorce or not.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~


top rope

Our situation has gone from Contact to Custody. We got custody of Lil Bit, ironically, on our 10th Wedding Anniversary.

In all situations, there are Pros and Cons… they have to be weighed at every turn… if they are not considered, it is possible to come to an incorrect choice…

Thanks for the encouragement.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Itisforme

Going by the reactions of all parties during the pregnancy is a big clue, if Dday comes during the pregnancy. If the OW is causing a lot of grief, then most likely she will cause more grief after the child is born. If WS/BS are causing grief, then again, they may continue to cause grief after the child is born…
Should Dday comes AFTER the birth of OC, then you should go by the way that the “sides” are able to “get along.”
If the “sides” cannot put their dislike of one another for the sake of the children (OC & BC included) then there is no point in contact, no benefit for the OC or the BC.

OW in our case caused some grief during the final part of her pregnancy, after Dday…
I have a 5-inch stack of emails to show her “obsession” with my H.
There are different circumstances with our situation, which kind of throws a curve in this thought pattern… The OW’s previous history…
Having already given up 1 child for adoption, having had a 2nd child removed from her custody because of failure to protect him (abuse)… these made it imperative that SOMEONE step up… and we did.
Her history showed that she was not interested in being a mother. Her history proved to be right.

So another measuring stick is the “sides” histories….

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

sunnydale

You have already chosen C.
Then now is the time to show that you can be Adults about this.

Has there been an amniocentesis performed where DNA can be tested? If not, then I suggest that you wait to finalize your choice of contact until AFTER the DNA is proven. Our attorney refused to take our case if H hadn’t agreed to a DNA test. She had seen too many men agree to take on responsibility of being a Father to a child, only to find out that the child wasn’t his.
Be sure to let OW know that there will be NO CONTACT until the DNA is confirmed. Then you can take the step into Contact…

Ground rules must be made in the beginning… Trying to “change the rules” after Contact is established only makes things worse. We had many troubles in the beginning, trying to gain Joint Custody: lies told to the court, etc. But in the end, OW’s history came shining through.

Good Luck, honey… it’s a rough road at times, but a child’s love can make it worthwhile.

<small>[ May 02, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Stacia_Lee ]</small>

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,028
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,028
I meant he only cares for the OC not w/ being w/ the OW. And the OW understands that. I had the weirdest dream, I dreamed the OW died while having the baby. This freaked me out. I mean I don't like her but I wouldn't want anything to happen to her either. Is this me just being stressed out or is God telling me that I need to change in some way? My H said me and the OW need to be able to talk to one another, about this child. He doesn't know anything about meds, changing, what might be wrong w. it. And I was going to have to be the one that comumicated these things w/ her. He said he also told her that. I just don't know, if we could just stay on the OC then I will be fine. If she goes off the subject then the conversation is over! I do not want to fight oir argue w/ this woman and I don't want to be her friend, but we do need to be able to talk about the OC. So pray that I can do that and she can too. There are alot of issues that we all have to get over so I guess we will take baby steps to insure that everyone is happy.
Happy Sunday! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 908
N
Member
Offline
Member
N
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 908
Stacia, everything you have said in this thread is very well spoken and true. Although I'm on the other end......so to speak, I'd like to thank you for your words of wisdom. Even I on the other end and just having my baby have so many things going through my head not knowing the total outcome of everything, but I know one thing......when I look at my baby's face and watch her I only want the best for her and how can I NOT act on her behalf instead of my own. I've thought of these things before once she was here, it became reality and it's her I'm concerned with not my feelings. It's her wellbeing and my twins wellbeing that is important here. Thank you for your words.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
I have withheld sharing too much about info about our relationship w/ OC because:
1) there is not many to relate to since it is a rarity for C
2) because of the rareness there is not much support
3) I did not want to dwell on the negatives of the situation

I have since mostly posted about the positives in my marriage and have turned my focus to that. I do continue to issue warnings to others considering C and make my position known that i am now against it and have valid reasons why. I also make sure to point out that if C is chosen then I can offer some useful advice about that and some guidelines to follow to hopefully avoid some of the problems we have encountered.
***********
***********
H and I have been trying to be "adults", trying to do what we thought was "right" and trying to provide OC w/ a relationship w/ her father that she otherwise would not have had. I am sorry if this gave the impression that it was just about the $$$$. I have stated numerous times that no amount of $$$$ or CS reduction has been worth this chaos my family has endured.

So $$$ has not been our motivation, yes we have fought for fair treatment from the CS agency though, we are entitled to that @ least, although it has yet to happen. That is interesting though because that's usually what STOW think when a dad chooses to be involved.
*********
*********
JFTR I have NOT referred to OC as "this".
*********
*********
Yes, I know this is something we chose, as in how can we complain then? I was coming here to vent and hopefully find some encouragement for the down times and hopefully some guidance or support when problems arise w/ OW, OC or custody issues.

My problems w/ C are not w/ OC but w/ OW. And because of the problems w/ OW, yes it has negatively affected our relationship w/ OC. We do not mistreat OC in any way but we do not have as affectionate feelings for her as when we started out. Originally OC was like a blank slate, all she represented was the fact that she was biologically my H. As time went on, OW has pointed out numerous things to cause the representation to shift to OC now represtenting H A and relationship w/ OW. You can blast me for that if you want, I am being honest. It has not changed my care for OC but rather my heart about her. This only affects me personally, in my mind & affects my marriage, making it harder to accept & heal.

Then some of you will say that OC is picking up on this, maybe, but it's not like we do not have fun, play together and other regular family "stuff". I buy little things for her when I'm out just like my own, think of things she would like just like my own, make dinners I know she likes just like my own, tell her to stop tattling just like my own, I treat like my own in every way except knowing in my mind & heart, that she is NOT my own.
*********
*********
I am only the voice of reality here on this board, at least concerning C w/ OC. This is an abnormal situation and it has negative affects on people. That is reality!
*********
*********
I do not think OW is crazy(well, she could be), nor do I think she is a bad mother. I do however, think she is being very selfish. We have seriously tried to compromise on numerous occasions.

Yes I am getting to the point where I can just let OW do whatever she wants. W/ that though means our relationship will also change because we will know that this is all fake. H really has no rights as OC father, it is all for show for OW to continue her charade of being the "saint" by "allowing" us so much time w/ OC when H is such an "awful" person.

See, C is fine unless MM/father actually has an opinion about OC and how OC should be raised then----oh watch out----because that is not what the mother wants. "Mom" only wants to have CONTROL. She only wants child raised how she thinks the child should be raised.
*********
*********
That is the kind of problems we are encountering. I actually think this counseling will be good because this therapist is realistic and can see right through OW games.

I am just being honest when I say the idea of "therapy" w/ OW makes me physically ill. Wouldn't you be? Doesn't it sound riciculous? Come on, don't you think it might be embarrassing having to spill the entire situation to another stranger AND knowing the OW is going to tell HER side of the story (which relieves her of any responsibility) and you can't say anything?

We never told "our" side because H always reiterated the fact that we were not there to focus on OW or their past relationship, we were there to focus only on OC. He did not want to stoop to OW level by turning it into a tattle telling session. He was not concerned about what the therapist thought of him or his reputation, he just wanted to come to a reasonable parenting agreement.

Well, he was right because the therapist seemed to see right through OW since we never hardly said much of anything. It doesn't discount the humiliation of the process or situation.
************
************

I think I am totally finished here.

But I am pretty good @ the "cheerleader" role and I will continue to encourage if I feel/see the need.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,884
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,884
First off, I can't really comment from experience from the BS side of things. But I am one that's greatful that there is NO contact in our situation. Not to beat an old drum from my story, but with the xMM/OM's violent behavior, Sailorman and I felt that contact would not be a good thing, in fact it probably would have been a dangerous thing! Therefore we never even told xMM/OM that I was P! Not the point is moot, as Abbi is now 3, and in the state that we live in and the one that she was born in, if xMM/OM doesn't file a paternity suit w/in 90 days to 2 yrs, then he has no claim. Also the fact that Sailorman never contested paternity.

Now, for the issues at hand, and first of all, Stacia this is a wonderful example of how and why C or NC is chosen! In some cases, like if mine were reversed and the OC was not mine but Sailorman's, what you have shown here is a perfect example of how to go about the decission. A perfect outline of how a POJA can be implemented. Kudos to you on this thread, Stacia!

Now, as for how some have taken and twisted this thread to be an attack on their situation. I never saw that in the original post on this thread! The things that KT is taking as offense, I see as a valid question. I clearly remember that you and H were perfectly happy with NC UNTIL OW filed for CS. THAT is when you filed for visitation! Now, to many, if not most, that screams of, "She wants $$$$, then we want C!"

I'm not saying that's the case in your sit., but you can see where that's why many think that. I'm not saying that it was right for OW to file for CS after she told H that she didn't need any of it either! I'm just saying that you said she filed, and you and H counter filed!

Also, as for you saying </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am only the voice of reality here on this board, at least concerning C w/ OC. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It has been stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER that none of our situations are the same! C has worked for Stacia and her H, Mo5's situation, fullhouse and pops, but has crashed and burned with others who rarely post here anymore! You are trying, but it seems to be failing not only for you, but for all the children involved! These are the situations where many get angry, especially if contact is stopped, because the OC and the BC can and do end up being the ones who get hurt the most! In reality, the children are the MOST innocent in these situations! And, before you attack me, saying that I don't know how it feels to be a BW, look again! The biggest difference is that I was also a WW. So, I have been on both sides of this coin, as far as the infidelity is concerned!

Oh, and one last thing, being the WS who had the OC, and BS and I are raising her, she has not been the nasty reminder screaming "look what you did" with disgust for over 2 1/2 years!!!! It was my own forgiveness for myself that stopped those feelings, now it's looking at all my children, and a loving "look what you've done" that I feel in my heart now!

So, for your situation, you may be the only voice of reality, but that doesn't go for mine or many others! This board is for advice, venting, help, support. Share your situation and the results of C, but your OW isn't "their" OW. Contact usually doesn't work smoothly, but it can work! Just depends on the situation!

JMHO, take it or leave it. From the outside looking in, so to speak.


****edited to add FH and Pops, if I forgot any others, please forgive my mistake!****

<small>[ May 03, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: tigger4jdt ]</small>

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 741
S
Member
OP Offline
Member
S
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 741
True there aren’t many to relate to, because C seems a rarity.
But, how is it going to help anyone to not hear the C side of things??
No support because of the rareness?
I have found quite a bit of support over the 2 years that I have been on this board.
Don’t want to dwell on the negatives???
Then don’t. Tell us of the positive aspects of what you are going through. IMO, I haven’t been able to pick up on the positive aspects of the contact you have with OC. I have been able to pick up on, what I see as, the inner hostility and resentment that you seem to have towards the child. And you are right; the child will pick up on it too.

As I have said before, I believe that NC is best for the marriage. I will not fault anyone for choosing NC, as that is what I would have preferred myself. BUT, because we have chosen C, then I feel it is my duty to show that it is possible to have C without focusing on the pain of the A, without manifesting the A in the OC.

Giving advice to avoid problems when C is chosen, that is all well and good. That is what I am trying to do … but I am also trying to help show that each of us controls ourselves. We cannot control the other “side.” We are responsible for the way we present ourselves in this situation. We are responsible to show that we are willing to work hard towards the goal... a well-raised child, well rounded, happy.

As long as we continue to focus on the pain of the A or the fact that a child exists outside our marriages, then when are we ever going to heal? We must focus on our marriages.
Following the MB principles we can heal, recover. Lord knows its not easy, but it is possible.
Using aspects of the MB principles it is possible to make C work.
Hurtful comments, disrespectful judgments and the like… they are daily roadblocks to a working, peaceful Contact. If we can apply the MB principles within our marriages, why is it such a foreign idea to apply them to other relationships in our lives… and yes, Contact is a kind of relationship.
Having C requires some form of C with OW, when the WS is the WH.
C takes on different facets when the WS is the WW. That type of Contact is a totally different matter, but no less difficult, I am sure.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am only the voice of reality here on this board, at least concerning C w/ OC. This is an abnormal situation and it has negative affects on people. That is reality! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right here, is where I think you are wrong. You are not the only voice of reality. Each person on this board is a voice of reality. Each person experiences different things.
I don’t see that it has had a negative effect on me. I have actually grown in spite of the situation.
But, Yes, this is an abnormal situation… But there is NO YARDSTICK by which to measure EVERY situation.

Because you, mom of five, Amiee2, pops, Crazymum and I seem to be the minority, we are nonetheless the ones that people seem most interested in hearing our stories BECAUSE we have contact. They want to see how we do it.
There have been others, who just as you have, had tremendous problems with C. There have been others where there were criminal charges filed against the H. They found the situation too toxic for their marriages and families and ended contact.
There have been many that have tried and ended C because of the OW’s antics.
As I have said before... Contact is HARD.

Recovering from an A is hard enough. Adding C to the mix makes it doubly hard, and then some. That is why we must show all sides… The Good, The Bad and The Indifferent.

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
If you read my posts I have always pointed out how MY OW acts. And I pointed out (in my earlier post) that for SOME, OC can be a negative reminder and I wrote that it was for WH. I was ony bringing up a negative perspective. I have also pointed out many times the difference between an OC who is born from the wife, thus actually living w/ you and from the H, one who just visits. The latter is more disruptive to the family structure and schedule.

I find it so interesting that people have a problem w/ a father getting involved AFTER CS is filed and then I guess they will never live down the stereo-type of only getting involved to reduce their CS.

OW AND H had BOTH chosen NC. Originally OW felt it was her and OC or nothing, maybe H felt that way too. Either way he was not going to give up me and his son. I know you all can understand what a whirlwind of chaos that time can be. It is hard to think clearly. Then when OW contacted H (for name change)and he made it clear he would be "responsible" in any way, shape or form and OW declined, we both felt it was for the best. We honestly thought she was getting married so OC was going to have a father figure in her life.

When we got sued for CS, we felt that was an open door and invitation to get involved w/ OC life. We did not "counter file", we did not file anything. We went to the CS hearing, got totally screwed (oh but that is beside the point, don't want to give the wrong impression). We had decided before we arrived that we would ask to meet OC and let OW woman know we wanted to be involved. We told OW we wanted to meet OC and get invovled before the hearing was even started or finished.

We thought, since OW needed CS, then there must not be someone there to support OC as a father figure too or else OW would not have sued.

We slowly and gradually got involved KNOWING this would be quite an adjustment for OC as well as OW. The problems started when OW tried to reduce our C w/ OC and was upset that it no longer involved her (OW). It was then that we started to get the courts involved, so H could assert his rights as OC father and excercise them. JFTR, CS was not lowered until a year later, even though we had been having C w/ OC and could have gotten lowered the very next day. We were trying to take everything slow and one step @ a time.
ANd JFTR, in this court CS and custody are both handled separately so you don't get an automatic reduction just because you had a custody hearing, they are always 2 separate things, 2 separate hearings.

I came here looking for support for my marriage, which I sometimes got. I also came here looking for support and encouragement for how to deal w/ the C situation. That is more rare because so few are gong through it.

Now that there are more that are thinking of choosing C I think I am the voice of reality and reason because I offer them advise and guidance on how to make the C road smoother, as someone who is going through it and has had major road bumps.

I only took offense to the remark reminding me how I chose this. Obviously I know I did. That's like telling a BS, "well you chose to stay married to H" yah duh! That's helpful. WE all know our choices but why can't we ask for encouragement sometimes when it gets rough? Am i not to voice the negatives because I "asked" for it? Am I not allowed to complain becuase I "chose" this?

I have admitted that I/we did not know how this would be. We did not realize that OW had no desire to have H involved as a father figure to OC but rather just a financial supporter. That made things harder to try and deal w/.

See, if you notice, no one seems to offer much encouragement for C and how to work through it (at least not for the BW) it's mostly just "end it" or "act like adults".

How much more adult to I have to be? That is why I am led more and more to realize what a mistake this was since there are no answers. But YES, I chose this and I am here now (which I have said over and over, "we are HERE now") so I have been trying to work through this and trying my best to make the most of it. Are some of you over looking this?

I completely understand the situation and all it entails so I also try to point out to BW, if C is chosen some things they can realistically expect. Why is that bad? It seems no one wants to hear when choices go bad. Only how great NC is or how great C is. There are some of us stuck in the middle (or is it only me?) Many are confused and think this choice is best for the OC, whatever, but i remind them that this choice may have some unexpected consequences that they might not have thought of.

I am a realist, so even if I think that remark was offensive, oh well, it was probably just more insensitive. We don't know each other so none of this really matters. It was just nice, @ first, to realize I was not the only one dealing w/ a situation like this. However, it seems I really am alone in this, as we all are, since each situation is totally unique and so what advice can anyone really give?

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
K
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,536
we were posting @ the same time.

It is a wrong grammatical interpretation, I did not write that I was the only voice of reality I wrote that I am only the voice of reality. Meaning that my voice represented reality NOT that I was the ONLY one representing reality.

stacia wrote:That is why we must show all sides&#8230; The Good, The Bad and The Indifferent.

I thought that was what I was doing.

No one comes here for support when things are gong good, duh, we know how to handle the good things, people come here when they/we need help, so of course maybe you seem only to hear the "negative".

I have mentioned the positives before though and I know that I rarely bring up our relationship w/OC. I do remember writing about the trip we took to the snow. I don't remember ever writing about "resentment" I supposedly have towards the OC. Then again, I had just written some good things about OC and how I treat her just like BC but that was obviously overlooked. I have written about oldest BC feelings & struggles towards/with OC.


I have always tried to make it clear that my problems were w/ OW not OC. And because of problems w/ OW, it affected C w/ OC. How could it not? I have had to take precautions to protect my family from OW and that influences C. For examle when things were becoming volitile verbally w/ OW, we did not take BC w/ us to drop off OC, that meant OC had to come w/ us alone and we had to get a sitter for BC. Since then we were able to avoid that type of situation completely by having transitions for OC @ school or daycare. OW was against this, always wanted to "be there".

It is situations like this that I try to advise people to, that want to choose C. Ways to AVOID conflict.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,116 guests, and 67 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5