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Stacia - Excellent original post. The POJA is the whole point, for the marriage. I am a very vocal and firm believer in no contact. I do not see any benefit for the marriage, or the children of the marriage for contact. All I see is a disruptive environment for the children of the marriage.

That said, I want to support KT. It makes no difference when/how they decided contact. When the OW came after them for CS, they had that right to ask for contact. No matter what the reason, they had that right. Their OW is, in my opinion, a certifiable psycho. She is the one with her selfish demands and actions, not KT and her family. I have always thought KT and her family should say good riddance to contact, but to her credit, they are sticking it out.

I also am very carefull whenever I read "act as adults" in this situation. Obviously had two of the adults acted as such, this mess wouldn't be here, disrupting so many lives. However, once the oc is on the way/or here, decisions need to be made.

Whenever I read about the mm/bw/ow need to act like adults. What does that really mean? Does it mean they sit down together and discuss this? That is where I say no way. What the couple wants or does is none of the buisness of the ow. I say leave her totally out of the loop. Does it mean discuss what is best for the OC? I ask, why should the needs of the oc supercede those of the BW or the children of the marriage? This is where the biggest arguments come from.

I believe, as a BW, that my children's needs supereced those of the oc. The oc is not my problem or concern. I believe I owed it to my children to raise them in a loving and supportive home. I knew from day one that oc would not be welcome in my life, and certainly not my home. My husband agreed. However, for the sake of this discussion, lets say he did want contact. Who is not acting like the adult? Would my wishes and needs suddenly be wrong? Being true to myself would hardly be "not adult". That is why I am very carefull and tread carefully when I see the words "act like an adult".

Personally, I find the most adult thing to do in this situation is for everyone to take their piece of the pain and move on. That means the ow has to realize when the mm and his family turn their backs on the oc, she should act like an adult and move on herself. The mm has to act like an adult and face the hurt and harm he has done to his family. The BS is the only adult who did nothing to create this mess, and should not be expected to clean up the mess. It is childlike and immature for anyone to expect such.

So, as for the contact working or not. I agree that it depends on many variables. But, if you choose no contact, get a good attorney and move on with your life. If you choose contact, a good attorney is even more vital. The law will and does look out for fathers rights too.

Overall, I personally think that no contact is by far and away best for everyone.

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I apologize for the error in my reading your post…

You are only one voice of reality… Mom of five, pops, amiee2, Crazymum and myself are some of the other voices of the realities of Contact. Different sides, but reality nonetheless.

Your voice is also reminiscent of other voices that tried contact.
They had problems and ended contact. I am not saying you will… I think you will continue with contact. I don’t think you want to give up… but I have read where you would like to.

I understand your frustration with the OW. Honestly I do. I can’t tell you how many things OW did in the beginning of our Contact…. She continued her little digs, her little plots to split up H and I… Nothing worked…they only served to draw H and I closer.
Not once did I allow the foolishness of OW affect my feelings for Lil Bit.

You are showing one side of C… and a good example of what you call the STOW and a good sample of why NOT to have C with OW.
My side of C shows an OW that doesn’t seem to want the responsibility of motherhood.. A good sample of why to have C with OC.

All sides are needed so that people new to the pain are able to see many different views and work on their own situations.

As I said earlier in this thread… Weigh all aspects at every turn… and the more information we are able to provide, the better.

NOW do you see what I wanted to do with this thread???

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KT-

Does it seem to you that no matter how much pain you and your family have endured, and no matter how much you TRY and TRY.. you somehow seem to be a the bad, immature BS?????? NOT saying that anyone here said that directly, just how I feel sometimes. Why does it seem that you have to be just right, so mature.... it is not like we are dealing with something easy! I know im my life I treat others with kindness, respect and so much care, but always seem to get the short end of the stick for being that way.

Just a thought.. I mean KT went to darn COUNSELING and HAD OW IN HER HOUSE!! eeeeewwww! I don't care HOW OLD I AM... how kind.. how mature.. motherly... I just would never ever be able to do what you have for your M and family KT... and if your motives for OC are NOT ALWAYS PURE and PERFECT AND GOD LIKE.. Well, you are not perfectly pure and Godlike.. you are a human being who has been tested and stretched beyond normal limits.. and you are still there TRYING which is more than many wives/BSes or marriages would ever stick through or endure.

I love ya KT and I know how much you have gone thru... if you fall short then so be it... you are a soldier in my book!

I don't advocate C or NC.. it is a personal choice along with personalies and situations that may make it fail or work. I feel in my heart that all children should have a father, it is not the child's fault and that contact is GREAT AND WONDERFUL if all parties are ready, willing and able! I pray that God will love and bless each and every one of you wonderful ladies who are stronger than I am right now.

My H chose NC and I agreed. My M and my family and my heart is not in any place close to withstanding this... that is not immature, selfish or evil-BSish behavior.. that is my heart and my hurt that is not in any place to even see OC-- matter of fact, I do NOT at this point want to even see OW's face and thank God I have no "real" face to put w/my hurtful pictures! IN addition, as w/myself and many others here, I have no idea if H and I will even stay together and would die 1,000 deaths before I let my 14 year old son in on this humiliating situation if we don't wind up staying married... After so much turmoil and thought and agonizing w/myself over moral issues.. I know in my heart that I deserve to think of nothing else but me and MY kids for now... God knows what I have endured already and he knows how faithful I have been to H and family... and faithful to the human race in general... I hope my H's actions and thus the circumstances (whatever they wind up to be in the long run)... will still allow me to enter his kindom....

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stacia,,,,,,,,,,, this is a very intersting post. well thought out with great insight.

kt,,,,,,,, i understand exactly what you are going thru. if you can rememeber back to one of the first threads i responded to you on i was trying to be supportive of the problems you were dealing with as far as your ow goes. it was the matter of which school oc was attending.

i was trying to encourage you to choose your battles carefully and for you to stick with your C as it will be worth it in the long run. pulling from over 30 years of dealing with exgf and w/ graces bio dad.

i do feel that as you yourself said you are not only battling the fact of healing your marriage after an A but also an ow who wants money simply to make sure your h pays for dumping on her. with her antics it is manifesting as resentment in you towards oc. the reality of that issue is you are letting the ow control and manipulate you and your emotions.

i will encourage you again that if you (h and you) are going to continue with c then you have to realize that you can't change ow so focus only on your family and oc when she is with you and chose your battles carefully.

your going to counseling again is surely going to be an inconvience but make sure you get copies of all that transpires there so it will help you in court. also try and get copies of the last time you all were in couseling. for the same reason.

now a couple of my opinions.

would nc be easier for me? yes.
it would be much easier if om never showed his face at my door.

but why?
not because he brings back memories of fh's A. rather because grace is having a hard time going with him and fh gets upset that grace is upset therefore creating problems with us.

no grace is not a symbol of fh's A but and it doesn't effect the way i feel about her but i am a realist and there is no hiding the fact that she is not biologicaly mine and that means that fh's A will really never go away. it will fade into the gray matter of old age as time eases the pain of such things.

this whole thing has however changed who i am in some ways. i am much more protective of my feelings and have built walls around many of my emotions to keep from alowing those kinds of hurts back into my life.

would i have viewed things differently from a different side? yes.

had grace been from my A. then i think i would have done whatever fh needed to rebuild our marriage. after going thru nearly 30 years with #1s i would have to admit that i would most likely want visitation.

yes there are different feelings for grace then with my other kids. not that i don't love grace but there is another fear that i live with that a wsh or a bsw may not have considered. in my case grace's bd seems to be a good father and his family all seem to love grace. so i have this fear that as grace ages and starts to understand more and more of who her real father is her feelings will begin too change and i will just become her "stepdad". whether that is a valid fear i don't know but i can tell you that it is a real one.

lynn,,,,,,, we all do have to act as adults. sometimes we have to think outside of what is best for ourselves. this whole thing is much different from a bh's point of view as compared to a bw's point of view. but maybe not for the reasons you are thinking.

from my viewpoint you can start at the very beginning if discovery of the A.

would i have been able to live with such decisions as abortion, adoption or even giving the baby to the om to raise? yes.

but i had to look at what was best for my family instead of myself. you see fh would not have ben able to live with any of those decisions so any one of them would eventually have ended our marriage sooner or later.

so my choices had to do with what i felt was in the best interest of my existing family more then myself.

after those choices were made i had to "act like an adult" and unload the gun i had set aside for om. i had to learn to deal with things "like an adult".

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Stacia~

Very well explained and thought provoking outline on C v NC. I hope to get back to this thread, and post my 2 or 3 cents, but we finally have nice weather here, so trying to be out more than in! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Kt~

Hester Prynne, her D, (or I guess we'd say OC), Pearl, her H, Roger Chillingworth, and the OM, Rev. Dimmesdale, were the main characters. I didn't recall Hester not being ashamed of her adultery, other than the fact the letter A was very pretty, and made of fine stitching, and she dressed Pearl in the very finest of dresses. (Remember though, she was an excellent seamstress, and made them all herself). She made her living as a seamstress, but also made and gave clothing to the poor, (and still, even they spurned her). Anyway, my DD has read the book farrrrr more recently than I have, and she did say, "Yeah, Hester didn't seem too ashamed."

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^^bump^^

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^up

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A blast from the past... ^bump^

Here's hoping it will help to shed some lights for newer folks that have arrived within the last couple of years...

I wrote this about 6 months after we gained Primary Custody of our OC.
We have now had PC for 3 years. Yesterday was the anniversary....


God will lead you to
No waters He cannot part;
No brink He cannot cross;
No pain He cannot bear.
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God bless you, Stacia


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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Wow...my posts in this thread seem like a lifetime ago....maybe it was.....

FTR: we no longer have C w/ OC, going on maybe 2-2.5 years now. Our decision. OW was continuing to be uncooperative, it was hard, it became TOO HARD & we gave up...completely. We made our position clear to the therapist & OW, the therapist actually supported us fully. go figure.

We tried to have C via snail mail. We sent letters, gifts, & cards w/ no response. I don't blame OW completely. I know she did what SHE thought was right for her & her 'family' & so did we.

Our littles miss their sister dearly & have not forgotten her. During times of stress, my middle little asks to call her, I always let him, but there is never an answer, he must leave messages & there is never a return call.

I am over 'blaming'. These situations are difficult & life is way too short to spend it fighting or stressed out.

If my Dh were to say today he wanted C again, I would truly go for it & I wouldn't fight for 'more time' or what *I* think is best (this includes DH as we have the same parenting philosophy & parenting styles)....I would just go w/ the flow (ie: whatever OW wanted/allowed)....Part of me DOES wish I had the opportunity to have a 'do over' & use what I have realized & learned since 'that time'. The other part is glad to be free from the stress it was on my family, as well.

And btw: I did/do LOVE OC & care about what happens to her but *I* am NOT her mother or father & they must answer someday for how this all played out, not me.

There is some freedom in that.

Last edited by ktbunch; 11/18/06 02:20 AM.
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Yes, KT, it does seem like a lifetime ago. I was so surprised when I re-read it, how long ago it really was.

You and your family went through so much during those times... and you made a decision together for your family.

Many of the posts in this thread definitly help to show what can happen during the POJA process.

Thank so much for chiming in with an "update."

{{hugs}} to the ktbunch!

Stacia


God will lead you to
No waters He cannot part;
No brink He cannot cross;
No pain He cannot bear.
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Quote
And btw: I did/do LOVE OC & care about what happens to her but *I* am NOT her mother or father & they must answer someday for how this all played out, not me.

There is some freedom in that
Amen, KT. Good to hear from you. {{KT}}


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Ktbunch

Quote
Part of me DOES wish I had the opportunity to have a 'do over' & use what I have realized & learned since 'that time'.

Can you share what you feel you have realized & learned?

God Bless You
Ann

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Quote
Can you share what you feel you have realized & learned?
Each of us learns different things about themselves and their situations.

Its been 6 years for me. 6 years since my H asked me for a separation in order to keep the pregnancy hidden from me.
In another 2 months, the real Dday anniversary will roll around.

I am still learning about myself and this whole situation.
I look back over my posts in the past 5 years that I have been posting here... and am amazed.

Its really a personal thing, what you learn is up to you.

Stacia


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No waters He cannot part;
No brink He cannot cross;
No pain He cannot bear.
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Bump^^
Its been a while...


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No waters He cannot part;
No brink He cannot cross;
No pain He cannot bear.
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Thanks for the bump. This thread is very insightful. smile


Me: BS age 35
POS-eX-the SORRIEST, CRUELEST, LOWLY WAYWARD SCUMBAG out there
Married 14.5 years, together almost 16
DDay: 7-5-09
OC born: 7-23-09
no COM: tried 6 years frown
D filed 5/05/2011
D final 11/10/11
I was gaslighted for 2 years.

"You were not built for a safe story. Take risks and feel what it is like to actually be brave. It's worth it." Carlos Whittaker
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