Kind of a thread jack but I don't want this to get lost in a huge post-its bugging the heck out of me...

Me&theBoys- or ANY OW how could you rationalize wanting/requesting only your xMM come to meet OC due to stranger danger... and toddler reacting, etc.......

What child do you know who opens their arms out or feels more comfortable rushing to the arms of a MALE stranger? No way. Any child I've known my entire life will open up to a female, especially one experienced w/calming children (already a mother).. ??

Its better with BW there and who can deny it? The xMM at that point is much more scary to a toddler esp. used to being around mostly his mom.

When my H lost contact for a year w/his daughter who moved out of state (and his ex made it sheer hell to try to see her).. when we finally met at Chuck E Cheese after 1 year (she was 3 1/2).. she would ONLY let me hold her all day-- I had to warm her up to H ALL DAY and she finally fell back in love w/him cause I was the liason.

BW who is willing to deal with this crap to begin with and meet and make C work is a GEM to you,being that MM IS the father and IS married to her. There's no reason in the world to not let BS be there for the first or ANY visits!

I just love how the OW already had my H.. got preg.w/him.. and then .......THINKS I'd let her breathe the same air as my H without me in the mix-- OC or not- how dare she ever, ever ever feel she has ANY right. It blows my mind- I don't even get mad I just here twilight music- its unreal or something to me? We are wrong for peeing on our territory? Have the laws of love and nature changed FINALLY after all these thousands of years? I have no insecurity of OC's mother-- at all- in fact chose "no way" to attending his mediations. Didn't care to and wasn't worried about he and she w/o me. But that was formal. Like I said- a woman is nuts if she thinks she's leaving me out of anything- sorry, wrong WOMAN- I let the joker live and stay w/me and thats already extrema of me..LOL

Also, while all of us sin,fall short, could have an A and mess up-- I stil hear the twilight zone music when I think of myself being an OW and getting so numb to the pain I'v caused that I make demands that I know will cause more and more pain to another human being who is suffering. I'd humble myself because my conscience would kick my [censored], and the fear of God would DRIVE me to naturally try to help make things right along w/MM--- for MY OC.. FOR THE BC.. AND FOR THE W WHO I KNEW I contributed in hurting so badly. My heart would not allow me to make this woman feel even worse by trying to disinclude her AGAIN from her darn mate's life-- I CAN'T TREAT ANY human being- especailly a hurting one with such disregard.

Okay end of rant, but I'm irritated by the amount of sheer selfishness and disgusting garbage I've read today! Too much time on my hands today- HA HA!!!

M&Tboys- nothing personal- you are one of MANY MANY who feel the same way.

<small>[ August 20, 2004, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: giovanna123 ]</small>

My thought process, and that was what it was, not a solid decision, merely a thought process... had absolutely nothing to do with 'stranger danger'. I can't speak for anyone else. As I have said over and over, I have no problem with the W.

Please understand that there may be many different reasons for a mothers feelings on the subject.

And while I'm posting this, I think I should mention one thing I don't think I've made clear. Mine is a situation where I am perfectly content with NC, and personally wish it to continue. It is not ME who wants contact, and yes, after two years of NC, I do think I am entitled to some level of control (thought that really isn't the word I want to use here) as to how contact would happen, certainly initially. After all this time, it is a lot to expect of a person to simply have the attitude of "Ok, hey you haven't been anywhere around, but now that you've decided to show up totally out of the blue, I'll just do things your way". That is IMO, unrealistic.

I've said time and time again that everyone is different.

And BTW, please note you didn't read anything written by me in that "disgusting garbage" you refer to....

So are this couple going to legal measures to see the child?

I can see where you would want some control over the situation. However, that said. This is not a normal situation at all. That is what is so sad about it. But, if/when they do see oc, I still don't see the harm. Afterall, he is the father and she is the step mother. They will probably be very loving and kind to the child.

Overall, the sad thing is that it is quite legal for him to pursue visitation and get rights to spend time with the child.

Me&boys, why all the sudden after 2 yrs? I couldn't see going that long not knowing a child that was a part of my family. But maybe thigs where just to hostile in the beginning and peoples hearts do change. I don't know. I would hate to think I didn't have a chance to bond w/ the child before then. I think the longer you wait the harder it will be. The thing now is to make it right for the child. Like I said has to be some gray in the contract. Can't one person have it totally their way. Things happen and plans change. Can't be all black and white. Everyone looses if that is the case. And the child grows up with the tense feeling of hatred and pain the adults feel and act out. It only takes one person to screw it up.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

I have no idea 'why now' and couldn't begin to guess.

The fact that he doesn't know his child is his choice and his responsiblity. As of yet, nothing has been done about it, so far it was simply a discussion between his lawyer and mine.

If, when, and how it is handled depends entirely on what he decides to persue.

I think the attorney's should just be there to write it up! You and XMM and his wife need to be able to talk and work this out. Or its never going to work. You will Co-parenting this wonderful child and it shouldn't be just up to the attorneys to put it in black and white. If you don't have a problem w/ wife, can you not call and ask her or him what they would like to see happen? And what you would like to happen. People who cant talk among each other do not co-parent very well, from what I have seen. I know starting the c now is hard for you, but don't you want to know this lady who is going to help raise your child? I would! I think the adults need to swallow what-ever they are choking on and get on w/ making these (BC and OC) the main interest. Like I said before these "little people" grow up to be "big people" one day, and they will remember more than we think they will! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It takes a big person to take the first step to make things right, but in the end, that person will be blessed! Good luck
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

True, I agree with you on the topic of people who can't talk can't co-parent, as I have said that very thing many times. My lawyer has given his lawyer my cell #, with my permission, so if he wants to call (or I suppose even if she does)they know how to reach me.

Considering my feelings on the matter, I think that was pretty decent of me....

I have no numbers for them, and have no interest in obtaining any.

No, the disgusting garbage was not from you- not at all.... I was all over boards yesterday cuz I was bored at work for a change!

Yes your son's father waited 2 years. Some never want C, ever. Two years is still reasonable considering the hard situation that was created. A 2 year old is still so resilliant and would still at this point never remember life w/o contact, know what I mean?

I am absolutely sympathetic to any mother who has to relinquish her child to any unknown or uncofortale situation- yes yes yes you have EVERY right to be protective and concerned and leery of this scenario!! YES. Its just another piece of the "hurt pie" as LynnG would say- and that saying is so true in all of this. I personally have sympathy for human beings so I feel for you in that sense.

However, if this is only about your child feeling uncomfortable- there is no difference to the child now! They are both strangers. And as far as xMM -- he has proven to be the more unstable character of the two. He is the one who was the unsavory character in your life- not W. Plus, as my previous post revolves around- he is a man. Men are great- can be wonderful parents!!! BUT ladies-we are women and as women we are more naturally equipped to deal w/children. Its reality. Reality is, the W will make the child feel more at ease, unless she's evil and ugly to the child of course!!

So..... aside from all the reasons I posted above- if you have no problem w/W then just cause this man donated his sperm a couple years back does not make him familiar to a 2 year old in any way!No, W is not biologically related, but she is next closest thing and would be as involved if not more than H, in your child's care in their home.

Frankly, the W was a victim of a terrible scam (A)- even if she contributed to the breakdown of M- so was he- yet- MM showed his irresponsibility and lack of trustworthiness. MM should be less trusted w/ a child in YOUR eyes at least, cause you have no idea what he is really like other than he was an "unsavory" character when you were with him. Any MM cheating on W and family to me is an unsavory character. My H included-- can they change HECK YES, but what do you know of him now? You have nothing to refer to now, know what I mean?

Making any sense?

I know it is probably torture to come to this now after 2 years and I truly feel for from a mother's pov. But as Lynn said, you and MM made a very unusual and painful situation for yourselves and the non-participating victims (W and kids). Not judging, just reality, M&TB! I think it is actually a wonderful thing that xMM and W did not just let time keep ticking and go on forever not knowing your son. They needed time and they are now facing the hardest thing to do for them too! This will be very hard of ALL of you at first and MM is NOT being a coward - he wants his son but he is a package deal and you did know that.

Two years after a painful A w/OC is a SHORT time for all of you- even OC who is so young he'll be FINE! Hang in there- let it happen and could you try to be the first to be cooperative w/her by including her from the door. I feel OW should extend the first olive branch- in the way of making her comfortable.. if only so your SON can benefit for his whole life (minus 2 short years)...!

Well as I've said, nothing "real" has been discussed regarding contact actually starting, so how old he is right now may not even be a factor if a long period of time still transpires before anything is started, if at all.

And it's not just about my child being uncomfortable...

And I also wanted to add something about what I said regarding giving them my cell #, he was also told that his parents or other family may use it if they want to see my child.

Yes, it wuz. But do you not the phone numbers when they have the baby? What kind of visitations would you like to see? I know you said you were happy w/ no c, but considering for what ever reason they have now, they want to be a part of the baby's life. What would you consider reasonable? Does she go to daycare? Or has she been home w/ you the whole time? Just wondering. I don't know your complete story or anything. I don't know what happened when a long time ago, but you are going on w/ your life and you , I know, want what is best and good for your child. Maybe her father wants to do the same.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny D

Oops sorry, its a boy not a girl, my bad!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> Sunny

About their phone numbers, if they ever contact me, I'll have them then.

As for what type of visitation I would like? aside from none? (sorry, just kidding) i can't even begin to imagine. It would entirely depend on how old my child is at the time. Truely, I can't even guess. I think I'd have to wait and see what type of visits his father actually asked for, and see what I felt then.
I would have no problem with my child's Grandparents asking to see him at any time, though I can't say how that would be handled either...

I have never excluded MM's wife. She said it was her H that didn't want to see the children...so I invited to her to see the children by herself. She agreed, later to back out.

My plan, if they both wanted to see the babies was to meet at a public place. Park or mall food court area. When I seen my children were comfortable...I would walk to get something (drink or to the car). If the twins did okay with that...I would see if MM and his wife wanted some time alone to interract with the child. I felt this would be best for me and them. I couldn't imagine dropping my children off with anyone I wasn't comfortable with and leaving them for an extended period of time (visitation). I say this and thought of leaving them at day care come up. I still get a big lump in my chest thinking about it. I left...and I would cry all the way to work. But in my case I am comfortable feeling they would take care of the twins.
XMM's wife has always been civil with me...and has NEVER acted in a negative manner or said negative things about the twins. I have always been just as polite and civil. So if things were different then maybe I would feel different?

<small>[ January 11, 2005, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: litlone ]</small>

Litlone,
Someone asked why I don't have their phone number, and I said obviously I would if he called wanting to establish contact.

I think the whole Grandparent thing comes from the fact that my older son has a wonderful relationship with his paternal Grandfather (his Grandmother as well) and had a beautiful one with my father as well. Sadly, my father passed away, so my little one has no Grandfather. Not that it's a vital thing, but it would be nice...

Speaking only from my point of view, in the beginning, I was opposed to BW being around my child because I had some serious concerns about how she would treat him. She had said some pretty awful things about him and had let me know how little she thought of him. I did not want him exposed to any potential verbal or physical abuse. Some people, in the depths of despair and pain, can do some pretty bad things….even to a child. I did not try to block any visitation, but as the primary care-giver and person spending the vast majority of time with my son, I did expect to have control over who/what he was exposed to. I knew him best. Looking out for his well-being was my job, and I took it very seriously (sometimes to the point of paranoia). If something happened to him because I set prudence to the side to give way for unsubstantiated “trust” in BW’s treatment of him, it would have been MY fault. If you know someone does not care for your child and actually thinks him/her to be the worst thing that ever happened, would you willingly hand your child over to them? Legally, I was bound to cooperate with xMM about visitation, for the greater good of my child (according to the State of California). If I refused to encourage the parent/child relationship, I would be the one looking bad in court, which would be a big strike against me if custody every became an issue (a possibility). Not to mention, I really wanted to do what was right for Jonas (my son). I didn’t want xMM around, but I grit my teeth and did the “right thing”, because it was about Jonas, not about me.

Anyway, we’ve come a long way. xMM and his wife are planning a trip to come see Jonas (we’re on opposite coasts) this Thanksgiving. xMM has not seen him since he was 3 months old (due to geography and their finances). BW and I get along well, but it was a long road full of lots of bumps and bruised egos. Setting aside the titles of OW, OC, MM, and BW, she had a lot to prove to me as Jonas mother. Just as I would have to be certain of ANY person I put my son’s care with. She had done a lot of damage with the things she had said about him. I was willing to try, put she had to make me believe that she would not harm him in any way. xMM was not exempt from the same scrutiny. I did not oppose visitation, but I did retain control of when and how….until I was confident that my child would be properly cared for. Up until Jonas was born, xMM had no parenting experience what-so-ever. Coming from a large family (and a HUGE extended family) I had been taking care of kids for what seemed like forever. But, I always try to give the benefit of the doubt, so when xMM held Jonas for the first time, I was not questioning his parenting skills. However, it became obvious, relatively quick, that he did not know the first thing about caring for an infant. Additionally, some of the comments he had made about what he would do during visitation, led me to firmly believe that he was totally clueless. I don’t say that in a mean way. He really didn’t grasp the reality of what caring for a young child was. Now that xMM and BW have a child of their own, BW knows and understands where my concerns where coming from.

Okay, my post is becoming a bit long (as is typical of me). My story is a long one, and it’s all here on MB. I’ve been coming to this board for about 4 years and the overall experience has been a positive one. One thing I’ve learned is to never assume anything. All our stories are similar, yet so different. We do each other a great disservice by trying to fit each other into the same mold. Life just doesn’t work that way. Besides, there is NO WAY you could fit MY backside into the "standard" mold <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

OB1

Ok, maybe I should have made this a seperate post, but while I am now choosing to reveal some things, I don't necessarily want to draw mass attention to it.

Please understand that due to the EXTREMELY sensitive and private nature of my situation, i won't be posting a lot of detatils, so when many of you naturally want to ask specific questions, please respect that i may not answer completely.

Yes, as some have suggested, I was sexually assaulted by a man i considered a close friend, and he was married, and I became pregnant. First off, no, I didn't report it. I have valid reasons for that choice. No, I didn't know the child was his, actually assuming it to be the child of the man I was in a very happy relationship with at the time. Actually, it is due to that fact that my child exists at all. Had I known, I would have been at an abortion clinic fast enough to make your head spin. So I truly believe that God had a plan, because I would trade my little angel for anything.

I told no one of the assault till months after my child's birth, though a few close to me suspected something to due to a deep depression I expereinced early in my pregnancy while still dealing with the assault. A wonderful counselor helped me see that telling was necessary. I felt, and still do, that OC is a more palatable "label' than "child of rape". I did what I thought was best concerning what I allow people to think about my child's conception. A very intimate circle of family and friends now know the truth, but most still don't and never will. And yes, I still do deal with many of the same issues as a traditional OW would, which is why I have found comfort with them.

Anyway, a series of events led to DNA testing, and my silence lost me the man I loved and believed to be my child's father. Ok, I've dealt with that as well.

Being assured my child's father would never be in his life, I have never worried about contact until this point.

I know I'm leaving some things out...but I can't touch on everything at once. Having never reported the incident, and having had no financial choice (that's another long story)but to need to establish child support, this man is legally entitled to establish visitation, and there is nothing i can do about it.

So yes, I do see the OW point of view, but also the side of the "innocent victims" whom I count myself among.

<small>[ November 21, 2004, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: litlone ]</small>

MNTB,

WOW. Now the puzzle makes a little more sense. Excuse us all because we were only dealing with what u were writing. Having said that, I don't know how or why u were in contact with this MM, or the other circumstances behind it...but I can understand your feelings a little better now...
I would think that U would want the BW there for the very issues you just addressed.Why would you want to be alone with MM????????????????? After what u said he has done.
However, I think no contact at all would of been best...forget the CS issues...I think I would of just tried to make due with the help of family and friends...that monster..MM...probably would of never known about the OC...this just adds a whole new twist to the situation. Now I guess he feels that if he is paying CS then he is entitled to visitation...but I think if a judge knew the circumstances...he may not issue visitation to him, acknowledging your feelings. I don't know the law in that regard, so I can not really speak intelligently about it. Just my 2 cents.
Everybody has a story. Keep your head up so you can see where u are going!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would think that U would want the BW there for the very issues you just addressed.Why would you want to be alone with MM????????????????? After what u said he has done.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is a very valid question I forgot to address.
I learned through my therapist that I need to confront the situation head on, and not hide. does that make sense?
That is why I initially felt I needed one public meeting to determine my own strength in dealing with this man. As I said, it was only a thought process, and as I've also said, after that i wouldn't have had ANY problem with W being involved.

As to how I knew this man, that's an explaination that requires a bit more detail than I'm comfortable giving here, but lets just say the aquaintence went back many years. (no, not an ex I ever dated or anything)