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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by giovanna123:
<strong> To tell you the truth... if I were an OW who got preg... I'd BE HAPPY as H*LL to not have to show my face anywhere NEAR that family. I'd BE HAPPY to collect $$ from this guy and GO ON to love my child without the scowling from others, (i.e. how most OW don't disclose its from a MM - they have that luxory wherein the MM and BW do NOT)...

Seriously-- but that is because I would feel SORRY for my choice and FEEL ROTTEN for hurting an innocent WOMAN AND CHILDREN who I had NO BUSINESS tangling with in any way. I don't care WHAT a MM did to get me-------- I DO NOT take what is not mine-- and if I SCREW w/lives in any way-- I feel or would feel ROTTEN and when you feel remorse-- you are GLAD to stay OUT of the lives of those you hurt-- and surely would NOT be ALL UP IN THEIR FACES saying ME ME ME look at ME- shoooot I'd be HAPPY AS HECK to go to my corner - with MY baby that I WANTED AND LOVED and REALIZE that CONTACT would be ICKY AND NOT ALWAYS BEST for the child.

I would KNOW my baby deserved a great life-and know I could give it to my child WITHOUT having a false entitlement to SCORN AND SHAKE MY FINGER at the MM-- because he is only doing what he HAS TO DO in a NO WIN situation.

Okay.. I can NEVER keep this short-- I type too friggin fast! LOL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay maybe I misunderstood, but are you saying that mm that have contact are doing because they have to? I know for myself that
As far as the scwolling of others....well whos is going to lie all the time. Really it's easier for the mm to lie than the ow if nc is in place. The ow has the child. The mm can pretend to the public it never happened and he's still in this great marriage. Where as the ow when asked about daddy can lie and lie and lie but at some point when do you just tell the truth? I know I don't go around boasting about my duaghter's conceiption, but my close friends know the truth. I don't offer information to people. I did however look at this new girl to came to work for us and she is in my department she is having problems with her husband and was eyeing this loan rep........and she asked me about him etc. I looked at her and said you know my baby?? And she said yeah.........well that was the result of an affair I had, do you want to take that chance? She has not looked at that guy since. FYI the loan rep is not my baby's father....just realized how that sounded.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: needtomoveon ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> NTMO/Marysway:

I don't ahve time to read this superdooperthread (but it looked good from what I did see <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) BUT, I did want to clarify that I was not trying to jump all over you.

It was one of your initial comments that provoked the point I was trying to make. Nothing personal.

It seems, in this life, all we ever hear (generally speaking, yep) is how horrible a man is for wanting NC but the same negative feelings are NOT provoked towards a mom who also wants her child to have NC.

That is why I asked why an OW could not admit aloud that there could be very VALID reasons for NC. (or something like that).

It was not meant towards you specefically nor to create a feeling of defensiveness.

I am still & probably always will be perturbed @ OW for the difficult situation she put us in (not referring to A but OW detestable behavior during C w/ OC that resulted in no other choice but NC----MY POV). But I'm trying.

I triggered myself this week like a dork & I'm paying for it emotionally. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It happens sometimes. kwim?
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CLO: I can see & understand why you don't see yourself as OW, but can be considered it by a technical default. LOL Chalked up as not one of your brightest moments hanh?lol

I'm glad you didn't abort your child & proud of any woman who chooses not to. Even if you aren't pro-life, I am & I was glad to hear that our OW didn't abort either. I would never have wanted that.

but anyhoo....enough TJ from me.

xoxoxoxxox
kt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KT thanks for clarify. I could tell by your post that something was going on....as I said to you where did this come from? As I've always said that a person's personality will pop up here and direct how we act in the role. Maybe circumstances sets us off, but our personailty always comes back and we go back to ourselfs. I don't think one person ow/bw/mm would be any different in any situation if it was a typical divorce, breakup ect. KWIM?

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Mary- I'm not saying they should have aborted thier child, or that the decision to have an abortion is an easy one. After conception has occurred and BOTH parents have to deal with a child they were not expecting...mom's have choices, dad's do not. Mom's get to choose to be a parent or not. That choice is never easy. It shouldn't be. In this situation where dad is an exmm and mom is ow, if dad doesn't want to be a dad...he has NO choice except NC.(I guess that's any sitch, really) It's isn't any easier to make that choice then for a mom to choose to terminate her pregnancy.

The only difference is that a man who doesn't want to father the already concieved child is put down for his choice. A woman who terminates her pregnancy is offered a shoulder to cry on. She pays for the termination once, the man pays for NC the rest of his life.

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Believe what you want out of your MM, but the bottom line is most MM looked at OW as an easy piece of *ss. Reality is they could have gotten it somewhere else, but you happened to be in the right place at the right time. Lucky you.

There are several levels of affairs. Most books and research that I've done seem to indicate that many affairs aren't strictly about sex. They start as EA and progress from there. If it was really all about sex and only sex, these MMs wouldn't find it as difficult to walk away from OWs as some do. Many women seem to want to push the sex view because it tends to lessen the fact that the men were probably seeking emotional needs also that weren't be met in several areas.

Lady, you don't have years of history, family, kids etc. with MM. If I were you, I'd refrain from making statements like this one you made "I know that I would not be as forgiving as those of you here". You're not in those shoes.

In my case, I have more years of history together with my MM than his wife does. I was with him through many tough times including his dad's heart attack, his struggles with his religious training, etc... All this happened before she even came into his life. So if that is the case, my presence in his life is just as important as his wife's.

I'll stop now, because people like you don't listen anyway.

Not that were aren't listening or totally discrediting what you are saying. Just goes to show that each of these situations are different and generalizations of people and issues are what really causes conflict between many of us.

I know that in my case, I am only months from making a drastic decision regarding the continuance of my R. I know it. He knows it. The one thing I have learned no matter what board I'm reading on is to not leave the decision totally up to him. I have to eventually do what is better for me and our daughter even if it includes NC until he exposes her existence to his wife and time for her to adjust if she adjusts ever.

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I don't think one person ow/bw/mm would be any different in any situation if it was a typical divorce, breakup ect.

What do you mean? I don't understand.
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I still think it remains to be seen or heard that there are VERY VALID reasons for NC. (besides obvious abuse)

Why can't that be respected.

And I still think there is (generally) a double standard towards men who choose to not be involved in a child's life & a woman who chooses her child NOT be in father's life.

xoxoxoxo
kt

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In my case, I have more years of history together with my MM than his wife does. I was with him through many tough times including his dad's heart attack, his struggles with his religious training, etc... All this happened before she even came into his life. So if that is the case, my presence in his life is just as important as his wife's.

Then WHY didn't he marry YOU? (asked w/ sincere curiosity not sarcasm)

????
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> Mary- I'm not saying they should have aborted thier child, or that the decision to have an abortion is an easy one. After conception has occurred and BOTH parents have to deal with a child they were not expecting...mom's have choices, dad's do not. Mom's get to choose to be a parent or not. That choice is never easy. It shouldn't be. In this situation where dad is an exmm and mom is ow, if dad doesn't want to be a dad...he has NO choice except NC.(I guess that's any sitch, really) It's isn't any easier to make that choice then for a mom to choose to terminate her pregnancy.

The only difference is that a man who doesn't want to father the already concieved child is put down for his choice. A woman who terminates her pregnancy is offered a shoulder to cry on. She pays for the termination once, the man pays for NC the rest of his life. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see what your trying to say happy, but I don't totally agree with you. I don't think if someone came to me telling me they had an aborntion I'd give them my shoulder to cry on. I know that is harsh, but I went through way to much having my twins and many looses to get them for that to ever cross my mind as well as adoption, although I would pat someone on the back and hold there hand through adoption, even though I can't do it. I maynot be a millionair or very rich, but I provide (even before cs came) for my kids and I love my kdis with all my heart and soul and would fight to my death on anything for them. I do see that mm has choices, and yes he may have to pay cs for 18 years, but he can walk away. It is much harder to raise a child than just pay for a child. YOu send a check once a month and your done until the next month. The xmm and bw are still not happy about the cs check, but it's the deal breaker in there relationship. bw would rather do that (because of no choice) than contact in most cases. As far as abortion goes........I'm not against it 100%. It's not for me and never will be. However I don't feel any government, person or anything has any right to tell us what to do with our bodies. I would much rather see a woman give her child up than abort. Abortion is the easy road out. My opnion. Adoption is a great gift to give someone. I am the first one to say that. But just because I got pregnant by a mm does not mean I have to give my child up because he and I made a mistake one night. I said it before....he has a choice before he unzipped his pants. The only sure way to never get pregnant (I've learned) is not to have sex unless of course you don't have a uturus. But if someone is so selfish to bring a chld into this world that is in abusive relationship, poverty level and doing nothing to change that, or would rather buy crack with her welfare check than clothes and food then yes by all means get the abortion......how sad, but that little spirit is better off! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Just because my child does not have a father around her does not make her a minnus to society. She will be fine and she won't be a victum. She will get past any struggles she has with my help and be a better person. I'd much rather be able to live with my choices, than have more materialy and also have the love of my child to give and receive. I did not have a one night stand with xmm. It was long term. Again, I'm not proud but this is what is the results of it. In some ways I really think God gave me a wake up call with the pregnancy. I would probally still be with xmm if I would have never gotten pregnant. In the same rut going through the same song and dance. I knew I needed out, and was trying to get out and was literly addiditive to xmm. Stupid but the truth. I don't think the bw/ow will ever see eye to eye on this. As we are on oppisite sides of the fence. Not just a mm, but I beleieve any man who fathers a child is to pay cs.....or let me rephrase this......any parent who is taking care of there child full time or the majority of the time is due cs. It's a responsiblty to say the least. If you were to divorce your husband I can't see any woman not wanting there husband (x's) to help provide for that child. It's not different. Not all children are planned even in the marriage. How would you like your husband to say well I did not plan this child, you are the woman and in charge of bc....so what if you were on the pill, you still are responsbile dear.....it's your problem.......

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ktbunch:
<strong> I don't think one person ow/bw/mm would be any different in any situation if it was a typical divorce, breakup ect.

What do you mean? I don't understand.
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I still think it remains to be seen or heard that there are VERY VALID reasons for NC. (besides obvious abuse)

Why can't that be respected.

And I still think there is (generally) a double standard towards men who choose to not be involved in a child's life & a woman who chooses her child NOT be in father's life.

xoxoxoxo
kt </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The first part........I mean that personality of person will follow them......your xow is who she is not because of her being an ow/xow. IF she were to marry and divorce she would probally do the same thing to her husband. That is all I meant by that. That we all have our personalities and that is who we are. Sure circumstances can make us go into a different one for awhile, but sooner or later we go back to being ourselfs. KWIM?

KT are you saying there are NO valid reasons for nc? Before I answer I just want to see if I heard you right.

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I have to thank the moderators for not erasing this thread.

I have to give credit to all the open-minded people on this board.

CLO, you have stated, "EVERY child has the right to know their parents."

I disagree with that statement. There are many children, who, do not know, and, never will know, their biological parents. It is their right? Even if adopted, sperm bank baby, orphaned, or your dad, who was legally married to your mother, and has abandonded you, to marry again and have a new family?

You can't force a relationship on anyone. They have to want it. This goes for any situation, be you the H,W,C,OC,OW,OM,MM, friend, neighbor, relative, etc.

Some people should not be parents at all. Who is to judge? You, or I?

There is NO guarantee in life, of anything.

I just try to do my best everyday.

Good luck to all of you.

In recovery since 1996.

ember

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ember there actually is a child's bill of rights.......I'll see if I can find it. and post it. Your right though you can NOT force a relationship on anyone. Let me see if I can find that article

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NTMO,

I actally don't believe in abortion either. I understand that no one has the right to tell another person what they can or cannot do to their bodies. If the man wants the child and the woman aborts it anyway, he still had no choice. This law gives too much reproductive power to women. To balance the scales, men should either have the right to force/prevent an abortion or the right to terminate parental rights.

Since that's not reality and we do have the right to give birth without taking the father's wants or needs into consideration as women we have to accept that we taking all the control and therefore they just might leave us with all the responsibility.

Mary if I thought for one second that my h would divorce me if I got pg, I would use bc, condoms and the rythm method. I find it equally despicable when a w tricks h into having a baby. Definite grounds for divorce. Should h not sleep with w in fear she might get pg? (in reference to "he unzipped his pants")Should he be responsible for a child born because sneaky w tricked him? I don't believe so. I would hope that when a h and w have to deal with an unexpected pregnancy that they would talk about it and come up with a solution they can both live with.

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Found it, not where I had it before, but another website.

http://www.divorcemediation.norwalk.ct.us/child_bill_of_rights.htm

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
<strong> NTMO,

I actally don't believe in abortion either. I understand that no one has the right to tell another person what they can or cannot do to their bodies. If the man wants the child and the woman aborts it anyway, he still had no choice. This law gives too much reproductive power to women. To balance the scales, men should either have the right to force/prevent an abortion or the right to terminate parental rights.

Since that's not reality and we do have the right to give birth without taking the father's wants or needs into consideration as women we have to accept that we taking all the control and therefore they just might leave us with all the responsibility.

Mary if I thought for one second that my h would divorce me if I got pg, I would use bc, condoms and the rythm method. I find it equally despicable when a w tricks h into having a baby. Definite grounds for divorce. Should h not sleep with w in fear she might get pg? (in reference to "he unzipped his pants")Should he be responsible for a child born because sneaky w tricked him? I don't believe so. I would hope that when a h and w have to deal with an unexpected pregnancy that they would talk about it and come up with a solution they can both live with. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Happy you missed the point.....oh well.

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Men having a choice AFTER conception. Wouldn't THAT be something.


Petitioner
Mr. Harry Sacks

...........................Order to Appear
.......................... Regarding Termination
...........................of Pregnancy

Respondent
Ms. Anita [censored]


Persuant to S.N.A.F.U. 34-685 the court orders a hearing for the father's right to terminate mother's pregnancy.

It is ordered that Ms. Anita [censored] and Mr. Harry Sacks appear to the designated courtroom and time to determine if Mr. Sack's request for pregnancy termination of Ms. [censored]'s unborn child shall be granted.


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

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Mary,

I am saying that there ARE valid reasons for NC.

And just because the outcome equalled NC does NOT mean that the 'dad' was a JERK becuase he chose NC.

IF so, then ANY women who chooses NC for her child & makes it difficult for the father, should be considered a jerk as well.

But my point is: we rarely hear how the 'woman' (in this case, usually OW) is a JERK for choosing NC for her child regardless of what the 'dad' wants.

OR that an OW prefers NC for her own convenience JUST AS a 'dad' may choose NC for his own convenience but is considered a jerk for doing so.

swim? LOL (I meant that as an acronym for See What I mean?lol)
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For example: our OW did NOT want us involved, but of course she would never say that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (although she did say that to me a few times)

So instead, she chose to be as difficult as possible UNTIl we HAD to choose NC or further disrupt our family & maybe irrepairably. (you guys know what we went through & w/ our kids)

BUT...in general, there is no negativity towards an OW who is being 'difficult'....except only from another BW who probably understands becuase she has seen it & so believes it.

But......another OW might find it unbelievable...& so the ###dad is the ONLY one to blame & the jerk. swim now?

See, the MM & his W make a decision based on what is best for their family, marriage & YES, thier children. I don't beleive it is out of spite or disdain for OC. I don't even think OC is a FACTOR in thier decision.

Just as BW & OW are NOT really a factor in the H choice to have A.

THey are not thinking about OC. THe BW is trying to keep what shred of her life she has left, together. OR maybe they are 'thinking' of OC but it is not a concern, @ least not BW.

DO I care that a child is out there w/o a father? yes! There are probably millions out there in the world w/o fathers. I cannot save all of them nor can I save this one.

BUT I can save MY children. So a BW has a decision to make, & of course she chooses her OWN children because NO ONE else is gonna look after them.

Sorry that there will be a child out there who won't know their father? a little, but only a little becuase it is not my place to feel sorry, I did not create this situation.

Hopeful that OW will find another to step in & provide a father figure for her child? Yep, statistically, it will happen too. (how many SINGLE moms have children by different men? PLENTY, no offense just stats)

FWH XOW had another fatherless child right before OC 2nd b-day.

So if we women are so much for equal opportunity then I would like to see us actually practice it & stop coming down on men so hard for the very same things that we do but yet.....we do not want to acknowledge it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> puhleeze! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

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OF course, a man should not have the right to force a woman to abort! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But WHY then does SHE have the right to FORCE a man to accept this pg & now obligate him to the child until adult hood?

The right to terminate parental rights & obligation of support seems fair.

Women can even LEGALLY abandon their babies nowadays if they DON'T abort or DON'T adopt out...just leave it @ the fire station, police station, WIC office ect........NO risk of negative consequences.............oh & we all aplaud, good mommy good mommy, you didn't dump it in a trash can! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

But a MAN who wants NC is a jerk?

See.........how it is?

kt

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by happymom:
This law gives too much reproductive power to women. To balance the scales, men should either have the right to force /prevent an abortion or the right to terminate parental rights.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: CheerfulLittleOne ]</small>

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Then WHY didn't he marry YOU? (asked w/ sincere curiosity not sarcasm)

Long story..aren't they all?

But at the time, he couldn't come to grips with the fact that here he was getting his degree in theology, getting ready to go to graduate divinity school and here the love of his life was choosing a Wiccan (read heathen in his book) pathway for her own beliefs. He thought that after he left our town, he could force himself to forget about me. His wife was the rebound relationship. He met her, became engaged and was married less than a year after he left me.

He contacted me about a year and a half later in 2000 after he married but I held off from physical involvement until 2003. I really thought I could do like some of my other female family members and be involved in this type of situation indefinitely...but I can't. He's a wonderful father and he loves both of his daughters but I'm not willing to be part of his long term plans without some major adjustments.

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Stormyweather ]</small>

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OK & he thought his problem was your WICCAN lifestyle! ROFL!

I'd have a problem w/ it too---right up there w/ ADULTERY!

what a maroon! (him not you, although I don't find your choices too bright either!)(yes I meant marOON!)

come closer to mama so I can....... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> LOL


xoxo
kt

<small>[ February 05, 2005, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

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KT I agree with you and you make me laugh sooo hard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mary-We are getting sooo completely off-topic, but the banter has been fun <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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