Well Pepper....

I can't seem to recall lately anyone being "pro-affair".

It's not like there are OW's crawling out of the woodwork saying, "I slept with your H!!" Most of the OWs who post here aren't slapping anyone around with their affair.

ent

p.s. If I missed the post....let me know...love to read it!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Let's both agree to be pro marriage. And to use this forum to support marriage. How about that?

Thought I was doing that Pepper. Just "representing" another side of marriage. One who has contact AND to show it CAN work.

ent

Good for you BECAUSE MARRIAGE IS THE TOPIC

What was the topic? Ohhhhh....

MARRIAGE....

Couldn't help myself!! lol <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ent

WoW...very good point starfish. I get it completely. Wish I would of thought of that & I'm kinda surprised/diappointed in myself that I didn't pick up on that sooner.

Interesting food for thought. JUST strengthens my resolve & arguement FOR OUR specific choices.

And kinda explains what I couldn't.

Because I've honestly had those moments of civil & normal actual conversation w/ OC mom & then there were those 'other' non-civil & extremely frustrating times. I would be so perplexed by the dynamics of it all & upset that 'acting like an adult' just did NOT seem to be the 'answer'.

xoxoxo
kt

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

Great point Starfish!

LynnG, I totally disagree that "act like an adult" usually translates as do whatever the xow/oc want, on this board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Expressing sound mental health, appropriate boundaries, principles/morals, and--with limits--putting others before ourselves IS mature behavior. Whether that means contact or nc depends on the parties involved.

"...what is best for the children....."

And the merry-go-round comes full circle again!

What is best for the children.... when I hear that, the children that I put first, are my own. Just as it is for anybody. So, we are at another bulleye in this situation. What is best for MY children may not be what was best for oc.

I believe that it was best for MY children to not have to pay for their fathers sin. That the oc would not be part of our lives. It was THEIR best interests that were taken into consideration. I did not want them dragged into the whole "who is that boy at your house" scenario. To much to ask, and I chose not to disrupt my childrens lives with a revolving door family. We heard of children who grew increasingly angry at the oc, embarrassed at having to explain the situation, being the butt of jokes, for something they did not cause. Sorry, childhood is hard enough without having to suffer for your fathers sin.

So, here we are again. I feel that the children of the marriage are asked to pay a heavy price for the sins of the father when the oc is brought into the home. Based on experience and discussions with others, we made that decision. Our children deserved to have a childhood free of the drama and stigma of oc. So, was that best for the oc? Well maybe, maybe not. But based on experience of others, it was decided that we would not disrupt our childrens lives that way. Naturally, the ow was upset with this choice. She felt that the oc should "..know his family..." So. Who was wrong? Actually neither. It was parents looking out for the best interests of their children.

EVERYONE loses here. The oc does not know his bio dad. The bio kids have to know about the betrayal of the family, etc. EVERY CHILD GETS A KICK IN THE PANTS dont they? There is no nice, neat and tidy way to clean this mess up is there?

"..what is best for the children..." is not a cure all for every child in this situation. Words are cheap, easy and useless.

Personally, I know that speaking with my older daughter....she is glad that we didn't allow her to be embarrassed by having oc around. She finds it all to Springerish and would be ashamed of having our family skeltons aired in public. She is quite old enough today, to understand the whole situation.

So "...what is best for the children.." sounds awesome on paper.....but reality is what it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is best for MY children may not be what was best for oc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this. When H was going through hell last year to get visits with his son then having him live with us, then supervised visits, it took a toll on our children. They were depressed and acting out. That is when H decieded to stop having contact with Oc and put his full attention to our kids. I was upset with him at first thinking that his Oc is being let down by one parent, that H should be there no matter what. But then Xow made sure that H was never really a part of his life.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So "...what is best for the children.." sounds awesome on paper.....but reality is what it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunatly I found that out the hard way.

I would like to congrat all the people who can make contact work. But for some it just doesn't.

I agree Jenny...

When dealing with OW, we (personally) do not bend to her whims.
The things we have done, have been in Lil Bit's best interest. We are concerned about raising her the right way, not bowing to OW's will.

On the subject of "acting like an adult" I do not feel that is a bad phrase... though I agree w/star*fish....
I feel that "acting like an adult" means that we make hard choices... for C or NC.
"Acting like an adult" when dealing with OW means that you are able to keep your composure, be respectful and command respect from her as well.

Doing what is in the best interest for the marriage, for the children of the marriage and what is best for the OC is the exact order in which decisions should be made.

When you are doing what is best for the marriage, how can you not be acting maturely?
When you are protecting the children of your marriage, how can you not be acting maturely?

If the marriage and the children of the marriage are able to deal with contact, and you do everything you can to insure that the OC is protected and loved,
How can you not be acting maturely and responsibly?

Each person defines things differently... and we should not be judgemental about who is or is not 'acting like an adult.'

JMHO
Stacia

And isn't it sad all around?

This isn't some Lifetime movie, where all is resovled and everyone suddenly is free from hurt and love blooms and all is one big happy family.

This is reality, in all its ugly and crude truths.

This is not a "family". This is, by necessity, a legal arrangement, with courts and judges and all that entails. I think that as soon as one moves beyond wishing, and gets real, it will be easier to move on.....no matter what is chosen. There is nothing warm, and nuturing about this situation.

I think for BW/MM and OW (and her husband) to all get along, it has to be done legally, with everyone knowing exactly what is going on, etc. All matter of fact, signed and stamped by the law.

Then I think having a resonable relationship "for the child", would depend upon the behavior of the ow. The relationship and it's ability to succeed really soley lies on her shoulders. How she handles sharing her child with another. How she handles knowing that her child is part of another family, that she is not part of.

I don't think that would be easy for anyone to come to terms with. So if the ow is able to hand over her baby to it's father and his family, without manipulation and games things could go smoothly. It is rarely the wife who causes problems with contact...if she has agreed to it. It seems like the ow have an (understandably) hard time handing the child over to another. But who wouldn't?

Applaud Stacia!

(edited)

<small>[ March 02, 2005, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stacia_Lee:

Doing what is in the best interest for the marriage, for the children of the marriage and what is best for the OC is the exact order in which decisions should be made.

When you are doing what is best for the marriage, how can you not be acting maturely?
When you are protecting the children of your marriage, how can you not be acting maturely?

If the marriage and the children of the marriage are able to deal with contact, and you do everything you can to insure that the OC is protected and loved,
How can you not be acting maturely and responsibly?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bronze this ... it's priceless!

Brava!

Pep

I wish this was a lfetime movie LynnG. Then I'd know for sure that there is a rainbow at the end of the journey! As far as the whole adult issue is concerned. I agree that being an adult is having the ability to make the hard decisions. I also agree that in situations like ours it is at times very difficult to be adult like in our behavior because we're acting out of hurt and pain. Then again when I think in this context the same goes for ow so I guess I should get pissed off hen she wiggs out then huh? lol. I'll get it all one of these days!

Wow, this is an amazingly bizarre thread and I was so grateful to get to starfish's post that finally injected some sanity here. The implication that it is "adult" to friend a terrorist whose goal is the destruction of your marriage and your children's family is bizarre. You don't "get along" with a terrorist, you protect yourself from her. [lest you end up with your head cut off! nothing "adult" or virtuous about exposing yourself to foolish risks. ] Having any contact with an OW will only prevent the recovery of the marriage by keeping the BS and the WS perpetually triggered. No marriage can afford that.

It is, however, an "adult" responsibility to protect your marriage and your children's family from an OW. Dr Harley advocates no contact between the married couple and the OW and, ideally, no contact with the OC.

It is scary to read some of these old threads and see how far from actual Marriage Builders concepts - and simple basic sanity - this forum once veered. It disturbs me because marriages that involve an OC need to be MORE stringent about recovery concepts, not less. For them it is a matter of survival after such a compounded trauma.

You are so correct!
This forum used to frequently be invaded by OW/baby mama from another forum.
It was a constant up hill battle to stop them from hijacking the REAL purpose of this forum, which is MARRIAGE BUILDING under horrible circumstances.

Even today, there are current MB old-timers who post that "children come first", meaning the OC, of course.

I still feel protective of this forum and the hurting MBers who need actual MB advice under the circumstances of having an OC.

I miss LynnG.
She was strong and fearless, like you Mel.
She took arsenic tipped bullets and still came out fighting.
I've bookmarked several of her threads for quick future reference.

You are strong and fearless for doing the heavy lifting on this forum for so many years, Pepperband. I don't know how your blood pressure withstood it!!

Now THAT'S hilarious! and oh, so true.

Mmmmm...I couldn't agree more with your statement. Thank you for being such a staunch supporter Mel.


I remember her well. I think she was the FIRST person (or one of the first) to respond to me on my first post here. Pissed me off when she tried to "diplomatically" convince me I'd be stealing from the OC by protecting our assets .


This floors me also.



I want to also thank you for YOUR staunch support as well. I always look forward to reading your profound wisdom Pep. There aren't a lot of people in this society who can see past "a child" if they haven't been directly affected by this mess. So, I thank you...for being able to see beyond that & UNDERSTAND .


I miss her also. But we have you & Mel now. To me, that is even more important because you guys don't have a dog in this fight like Lynn did so no one can charge you with being biased because your dog could lose.

I was also just as strong & fearless...until I allowed some posters to make me doubt myself & what I KNEW was RIGHT for me, my marriage & my children. LynnG set my head STRAIGHT. The OC's well-being is NOT in my jurisdiction of responsibility & my H's ends at paying his COURT ORDERED child support.

There are folks here, in this position, who couldn't STAND her philosophy, principles & vocal approach. Heck, they even go against some of Dr. Harley's so I suppose that's not surprising huh.

4eva

Shucks.
Thanks gals.

if all the back patting is over may i ask who this more than 6 yo old thread was bumped for and why