Howdy folks,<P>As many of you know, my ex-wife is quite aggressive and violent, especially towards me. I've been kind of doing a version of plan a for about 9 years now; not fighting back, avoiding conflict, letting her go off and letting her 'vent' without retaliating...<P>I've recently picked up a book called "Human Aggression" by Anthony Storr, published in 1968 by Penguin. Usually I don't treat books published so long ago as reference sources, but as this was required reading in a college course Dylan took, I decided to leaf through it to see if I might gain any insight into my apparently psychotic ex-wife... I was not dissapointed... <P>In addition to learning a fair bit about my sbx (stupid b!tch ex - 'lil 'ol vent there) I came across a few things that reminded me of these boards and some of the things I have big problems with... (no offense to the Harleys) Namely this plan A thing when the betrayers are being so abusive... <P>Now, in my mind there's a difference between being a bit nasty because of the guilt one is feeling and outright abuse. I, upon disclosure said a few things that were way out of character and were not-so-very nice... but I see a big difference between that and some of the stories I've read here about, for example the husband and OW spouting abuse over the phone, and other really nasty cr@p. <P>The thing that I read that so grabbed me was this... many animals, when faced with a dominant member of their species will make a show of submission, ie. baring vulnerable parts of their anatomy, turning away, etc... and this is usually enough to end the conflict. The dominant one, secure in his position does not feel the need to press the issue. Humans, on the other hand do not, as a whole, seem content with this. Indeed, a show of submission or weekness often provokes even more aggression or hatred. I found this incredibly interesting. It certainly holds true in my relationship with my ex. Every time she flew off the handle, I would apologize, hoping that when she calmed down after releasing her rage/anger, I could appeal to her reason to make my point. For years I've been wondering why this hasn't been working... Now I think I know and believe that I will be trying a different approach.<P>God knows I have every reason to hate her and wish her grave ill. For some reason I don't- and I'll tell you it sure isn't because I like her, which I definately don't. I actually dislike her a great deal. I find her abrasive, aggressive, violent, rude, crude and infinitely selfish and self-serving; all character traits which, in my mind are great failings. Anyway the point is, no more. NO MORE. <P>She's allowed to be angry with me, and differ in opinion, but from 2 weeks ago (I pressed charges for assault) to forever I WILL NOT TOLERATE ABUSE!!! In fact anything short of civility and respect will not be accepted. period. Any attempts at abuse, physically, emotionally, whatever, will be met with a fitting sort of retaliation. She will be forced to suffer the consequences of her actions. <P>That is not to say that I will provoke her, or go out of my way to pick up on her need or desire for conflict but rather enough is enough. I will not roll over, I will not expose my throat. My hope is, that she will learn that any dominance games will result in hardship for her, most likely in a legal arena. (have never resorted to physical/emotional violence, and never will)<P>Anyhoo, I'm getting way off track here... this was supposed to be for y'all....<P>My global recommendation to everyone here in plan A... DO NOT TOLERATE ABUSE!!! Plan A is all well and good... you definately want your wayward to get the impression that they can come home to a loving and forgiving spouse, but at the same time, I've noticed an alarming trend that if you let someone walk all over you, they will. If you let someone get away with insulting/abusing you, they will. If you allow yourself to be disrespected, you will be disrespected.<P>My dear Mom always used to say that 'You have to earn respect," that it wasn't just given. Well, Mom, (God rest your soul) there are times when you have do demand respect, and make it damn clear that you expect it. <P>Sooooo, what do y'all think of my little rant here? (Am I going to get kicked out for dissention?)<P>(Jim) NSR, I'm especially interested in your opinion, as I view you as the 'plan A' guy and as the most informed on the Harley principles (except for maybe K - but that's a tough call) you would be the best to give me a good argument or otherwise help me fit this new insight into my beliefs...<P>ttfn, Deut

Hi understand what you're saying. However I do think that you can follow plan A without losing respect for yourself or submit to abuse in the form you are saying.<BR>When following plan A you don't have to submit or take anything that you feel it's abusive. You just have to respond with dignity instead of doing it in the same level. Of course we do let it out sometimes, but I'm a firm believer of not descending to anybody else's level just because they did. <BR>When in plan A, somethings might be considred LBs and it's a good idea to avoid them but that doesn't mean that we have to transform ourselves into someone else just to be what our spouse needs, thinks he/she needs or wants.For instance the ow called me once. Once only. She wanted to stirr up trouble and expected me to responde on her level. I very politely just told her that if he satyed with me, as it looked like - and the reason why she felt threatned enough to call - she would be "losing" - she was the one who talked about losing or wining first - however if he left to stay with her, she would be "losing" as well never knowing when he would do the same thing again that time to her. I ended telling her to have a good day and not to bother calling me again because I could see by her answers that it wasn't jelping her self confidence at all. She never called me again. Then she tried another tactic which was calling my H telling him that I was harrassing her trough the phone and calling at odd hours. with that one I had to deal differently. First I asked my H why would I want to call her. Then and just becasue she continued doing it, I asked him to give her a message from me ( I knew they were still talking at that point ) the message was simple. "I don't want to hear one more time that I am calling her, and I now that I have friends there, I will know. If she tries that one again, she needs to keep in mind a couple of things: I know her, I know where she works, I know where she lives, and I even know where she hangs out" Yes, it was a threat and could have been a LB, but in that case I had to act differently. My H might or not have given her the message, but he certainly told her to stop it, he knows me. It never hapened again.My H was upset by what I said, but knowing me he knows that I only react like that if I am being falsely accused. And in the end it worked against her, because he sotpped believing her.<BR>I think there is a way of plan A"ing" and not taking abuse. In fact, I think they are too completely different things. refilling our spouse's love banks, showing we care and support them, avoiding situations where nobody wins and even understanding that a mistake can happen if the circumstances are favorable, is fine, it's what we should be doing all our marriage. Not asserting ourselves, not responding when a response is needed, not being ourselves or let go of our ideas or believes just so they won't be "mad" , and other things like that is not even plan A, is just acting in fear.<BR>Both ways look almost the same, but they aren't. I told my H I understood what he was going trough, and that I respected his right to make a decision on what he wanted from his life. I would help him and support him but I needed to see that he was trying to make that decision. I had no need nor was I willing to feel the pain I was feeling for a long time. While in the decision stage, he was to be polite with me and the children, and he would continue to call if he wasn't coming home for dinner or lunch, so I would know, tell me in advance of any plans including me and/ or the children, and no calls from the ow to my house. Discussing this calmly was no LB , I was only stating what I expected from him at the same time that I was telling him what I was willing to do to rebuild our marriage. AT no time did I ordered him to choose between me or her, or else..., I did not make any comments about her - although some came out later, when in recovery -, and I didn't use any derrogatory comments about him , the situation or her. Following my example he did more or less the same and things were quite calm at home. I'm not perfect, I did explode one or two times , and so did he, but for the most time things were quite civilized. <BR>Later, in recovery we were able to discuss many things that I had left behind, not because I was afraid they would make him leave, but because I could see there was not point on discussing them then. I just wrote then down and waited until I could see that he was ready to discuss them without being defensive.<BR>That's how I see plan A.<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Thanks for the reply, <BR>I agree with your plan A plan. I do, in fact have a lot of respect for the plan A. Dylan used a plan A on me, before she even came to this site... she did such a good job that there were times I begged her to get mad at me, yell, vent... something... anything to let out the pain I knew she was feeling... I originally started posting (at another site) hoping to tell my story and get blasted by someone, anyone for the things that I had done... weird eh...<P>Anyway, Dylan's plan A saved my marriage. I strayed ultimately because I believed my marriage was over, I wanted it to be over. We were so unhappy, in so many ways... for me, the worst was the sarcasm... constant, and it cuts me to the bone worse than any screaming or nagging or even the lack of intimacy... I think a lot of affairs are the result of a spouses mixed feelings about the marriage... 'I love my spouse, but hate this marriage' and you don't want to just walk out but at the same time you are very vulnerable to anyone that comes along and offers you a quick fix of what you feel you need most (from your spouse) <BR>If Dylan had reacted in anyother way than she did, I would have been able to feel justified in my affair, far moreso than I had justified it while it was happening. Instead she 'Plan A'ed me. It wasn't hard to talk to her. There was no sarcasm to help me shut out my feelings. I wasn't afraid of what I was coming home to at the end of my day. I wanted her back and wanted, really wanted, to do anything I could to save the marraige and recover. Anything else and although it wouldn't have been easy to split, we would not have stayed togther.<BR>So I'm all for plan A, and you seem to have and equally healthy grasp of it...<BR>I'm just to torn because, a lot of these posts... a lot of them, have me just screaming "GET OUT!!! To he!! with that poophead! You deserve better!" but of course this site is about saving marriage, so I don't post... I just sit there and stew, unable to stop myself from getting updates and worrying about them more. (I find it kind of freaky how I care for so many of the people here, some of which probably have never even seen my name on any of their threads)<BR>Know what I mean?<BR>I guess this post was born of frustration in a way. I'm not big on God, (though I am big on religion) and don't believe in the ultimate sanctity of marriage and that is should be save for it's own sake. (sorry - bitter experience speaking) I believe that people do grow apart on occaision, and believe that is acceptable. (That being said, I also believe that the rewards of growing together are infinitely greater!) To me, marriage IS something to be cherished and worked on and maintained, like a prize winning garden of life, which it is. But it does require tons of work and some people just aren't very good gardeners, some are downright vandals, and I just hurt so bad for those that, for whatever reason, have someone ruthlessly abusing them or hurting them seemingly without any show of conscience. Know what I mean?<P>Deut

Excellent Kat,<P>I have to agree...<P>DEUT:<P>My understanding of plan-a is this; learn to reduce LBs to zero. That is...<P><B>Angry out bursts<BR>Disrespectful Judgements<BR>Selfish Demands<BR>Annoying Behavior<BR>Dishonesty</B><P>Then try to figure out which emotional needs one can meet...and meet them to the best of your ability...<P>No where do the Harley suggest taking any form of abuse...What Steve H has told me is I have to try to react in a manner that doesn't produce LBs...Violence is the area that he believes an action that could be construed as a disrespectful judgement doesn't count as a lovebuster...<P>If one adhears to his principles you have to put up with alot of junk, however it doesn't make me a doormat...It allows me to show new begavior...<P>Violence should not be tolerated...unless you are beating the stuffing out of the OP...just kidding folks...It is never justified...and measure must be taken to exit that situation..PERIOD..<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Deut,<P>I have to agree with you, I feel the same way when I read what the betrayed are going through, it hurts to see it. But as a former betrayer, I've always said that I'm harder on betrayers than most. <P>We're all here because we want to save our marriages, but there's a line of self respect that (IMO, at least) cannot be crossed. I know the pain of almost losing someone, and it can make you cling to them, maybe harder than we should? I think that Plan A leaves a very good impression of the betrayed to their spouse, but I don't think that it's going to do a heck of a lot to change the betrayers mind. It's more of a long term goal type of Plan, but there's a way to successfully Plan A without being walked on (as far as I've seen). Being calm and rational, creating a life outside of your spouse (and letting them see for themselves that they are not the center of your world when they want to treat you horribly), working on loving yourself, I think these are all important aspects of Plan A. <P>You've brought up some great points with this post.

Deut, <P>my love, <P>I knew that had I reacted any other way than how I did, you would have had justification for anything and everything...<P>you truly expected a screaming, crying, and raging banshee of a wife who would unleash upon you a torent of pain and rage....<P>not only did you expect it, you hoped for it..I saw that clear as day...<P>only by keeping you completely unbalanced and wondering what the hell was I doing, (when I myself did not know) was I able to bring forth the guilt, shame and pain I knew was in you and had to be underlying the horrible things you said to me and did.<P>by reacting aggressively, I would have been playing into your plan...<P>well, sweetie, my plan was better....I got you to roll over and expose the vulnerable underbelly, (quite literally) didn't I....<P>you really should tell these nice people how I did that....someday....<P>Dylan

Hey Dylan, no sex here! Some of us aren't getting any, so don't flaunt it around others who ain't got it! LOL<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

LOL<P>Chris,<P>it had NOTHING to do with sex......<P>Dylan

hi again <BR>Dylan of course plan A was better !<BR>Deut, I understand what you meant. There is a very fine line between one and the other, and the limits can get blurred sometimes. <BR>I'm glad we, and you guys too, were able to find a balanced atittude.<BR>I know that if I had acted differently, my H would have welcomed the "excuse" and we certainly wouldn't be having the great time we are now, he was looking so hard for a justification!This way, as you say - good girl Dylan! - he felt he could come home and think without getting defensive, home was quite a peacefull and relaxing place, so it started to appeal more to him. ANd slowly, all the good things about our marriage that he had forgoten or was trying to forget came back.<BR>Have a great week, you guys!<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I think of Plan A as "play nice with others". It took me a long time to get it right, I've been a doormat, I've put up with incredible crap...and been loving in return and then LBed like a banshee. I know some of the difficulty I had was in breaking some of my own destructive patterns--angry outbursts & selfish demands immediately come to mind that I went somewhat passive (I prefer "non-reactive") for awhile as I tried to control my reactions.<P>Now my H is using Plan A on me to reignite my interest in the marriage and he seems like a COMPLETE STRANGER. He is not the bad behavior guy of the last 2 years, he doesn't seem like the man I spent 16 years with prior to that. He said he felt much the same when I went to Plan A...he did not know who I was.<P>My counselor said that getting through this mess is like walking an invisible thread over the Grand Canyon...it can be done, but it takes incredible balance and courage.<P>Best,<BR>Lor