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JL!!!!<P>I'm so happy I took another peek here before signing off.<P>You won't believe this! By reading your very logical (I love logical) response to an issue I'm not troubling with, I was able to read it without thinking, "YEAH, BUT WHAT IF THIS and YEAH WHAT IF THAT". <P>I'm officially a JL follower. Hey Francis! Did you hear that? You were the one that led me to Francis in the first place, remember?<P>Sorry everyone for the interruption of thought. I just get excited when I realize how logical, open minded, and smart someone is. JL has my vote!<BR>

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Just an observation from being a member here for about six months.<P>It seems that men have affairs for a variety of reasons, including the "I don't know" reason. It also seems that alot of the men who have affairs don't necessarily want to get a divorce.<P>It also appears that, for the most part, women who have affairs believe they are in love with the other man.<P>Since generally women place a higher emotional need rating on the love and romance aspect of relationships, doesn't it make sense that they would give up a marriage for what they perceive as a chance at "true love"?<P>There are plenty of exceptions right here on this site, but it seems that the majority of our "success stories" are those in which the man has been the betrayer. And there are plenty of examples on this forum where the woman has been the betrayer and the man is doing everything he can to save the marriage with not much success.<P>I'm sure that there are dead-beat dads, dead-beat moms, women who take financial advantage of divorce, men who take financial advantage of divorce, and everything else that has been mentioned on this thread. The problem is in stereotyping all men as one thing and all women as another. Or in stereotyping all betrayers as one thing and all betrayed as another.<P>No two situations are alike. Obviously, one's own experience affects their judgement. Bystander's belief seems to be that his wife's financial situation improved greatly after their divorce. I'm sure that is true in some cases, but I don't believe it is in the majority. It is probably true that some people divorce for financial reasons, but I don't know anyone who ever has.<P>Perhaps I misunderstood the point of this thread. I thought the question was why do more women seem to leave their marriage with no-looking-back and an unwillingness to try to save the marriage. Is that the wrong interpretation of the question?<P>Peppermint

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<BR>Hi,<BR> I'm very new to this site. I posted a 'roll call' to let you know a little about me.<BR> I would have to agree with Peppermint and some others that have responded. <BR> I 'walked' away because after some many futile attempts at improving my 'sterile' marriage, I couldn't live with anymore. STBX this time around even went so far as to do the'religious' route. Notice the difference between 'religious' and 'relationship' with our Lord. Even so far as to leave his bedroom door open so I could "see" him on his knees praying. So much for the prayer closet. Had the church ' surrounding' him even though this very church couldn't be bothered with the agony I was going through the previous 5 years that I was INVOLVED with the church!<BR> Alot of friends are going through the very same emotional turmoil, even making feeble attempts at leaving, but deciding the best thing to do is to stay, because their primary role is stay at home moms. One is utterly devoted to her four girls, homeschooling them, and is trying to stand up for herself. She even packed them up last summer and went out of town for a week, not telling hubby where she was. He knew she would come home, however, things seem to be better, and he's a Pastor! having done "marital' counseling even!<BR> The other has packed countless times, and I was the one who talked her out of it a couple of times. Nothing has changed in her situation. She's still unhappy, etc.<BR> There are others, but I won't go on.<BR>Since filing last March ('99), and trying to do it as gently as possible (still the 'fixer of boo-boo's'), STBX has let his true colors show, It's just that now everyone else can see what I've been trying to tell.<BR>Sorry if I veered off course [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Distrusting,<P>You quoted the following:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Research has suggested that men tend to fall in love more readily than women, and women tend to fall out of love more readily than men. Social scientists suggest two possible explanations for women initiating breakups more often.<P>First, a married woman's income and status are far more dependent on her husband than his on her. Consequently, women must be especially discriminating, whereas men can afford to be romantic. <P>Second, women are more sensitive than men to the quality of interpersonal relationships. Hence, their standards for developing love may be higher than men's. A woman may experience lack of rapport or self-revelation in a relationship, for example, while the man does not. As a result, women may evaluate and reevaluate their relationships more often.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this is only partially true. <P><B>Disclaimer:</B><BR>What I am about to say is very stereotypical and I don't fully believe ALL of it, but it is a theory that I have heard presented. I do believe that men are slower to commit and that women tend not to look back once they have decided to leave. There are, of course exceptions. There is no one model that fits all cases.<P>Now for the theory:<P>I don't agree that men fall in love more quickly. There seems to be an abundance of men who have a fear of commitment. I have heard the theory expressed (not on MB, but elsewhere) that men have an innate need (going back to caveman days) to 'spread their seed' as much as possible and this is what makes them reluctant to commit to one woman. I'm not sure if I agree with that or not. It's just something I've heard.<P>Women, on the other hand are quicker to commit <B>because</B> of the historical dependency on the man to support her and the children. They have an innate need to have a family and need the security of a single committed man in order to do that.<P>That explains why they have a difference in their willingness to commit in the first place. And I do believe that that difference is real. <P>However, once a man DOES commit, he tends to stick around. He may be overcome occasionally by an urge to 'spread his seed' but he will ultimately return home to nest.<P>On the other hand, if a woman has decided that the man she committed to is not holding up his end of the deal (and she will try to tell him, he perceives it as nagging and ignores her) she becomes very unsatisfied and will look for someone else who can do a better job. After years of being ignored by her husband, once she has FOUND someone who can do a better job (or maybe she finds that she can do a better job on her own, he is after all, extra work) she sees no need to look back.

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Keo,<P>I really appreciated this...<P>H usually regrets divorce and wishes he was back in marriage (misses home cooked meals, laundry services, regular safe sex, and someone who cares and worries about him)<P>W usually moves on with her life enjoying the independence (doesn't miss the extra laundry, the extra cooking, and enjoys not worrying about him anymore)... Extra dresser space, extra closet space, etc., etc...<P>I find it so true yet I still miss my husband and want him to come home... Even though he is having an affair, he is still worth the extra work! <P>Woozy<P>

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<BR>JL,<P>I liked your post. You're right that in divorce, both husband and wife lose. I agree that because of the immoral bias in the divorce courts and custody courts, women usually lose less. I think that this bias against men should be eliminated, and I really don't think anyone disagrees with me on this.<P>If my hypothesis is right, after we eliminate the bias against men, the percentage of women filing for divorce should fall somewhat as measured by time series analysis. If it doesn't fall, I'll happily "eat crow" on my prediction - but knowing the whole time that eliminating the bias against men was what I'm after anyhow.<P>As for women spending money on cocaine instead of their kids...of course they are in the minority. But so are "deadbeat dads." We've built an army of faceless, compassionless bureaucrats to financially squeeze NCPs as hard as possible. Where is the corresponding army to review the expense receipts of CPs on a monthly basis? Doesn't *anyone* see the ridiculous inconsistency here?<P>And I also agree with Pam - I think divorces should be a lot harder to come by once kids are in the picture.<P>My, what a thread! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Bystander<BR>--<BR>Who repeats: I don't have a dog in this fight. My interest in the immorality of the child support system stems from the experience of a friend of mine here in MB.<BR>

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No one would disagree that the courts have been tougher on men, but not in ALL cases, but YES a large majority of the time. Their have been plenty of cases right here in the MB forum when the women are getting screwed, so I can imagine how often women are left with nothing but husbands added to the deadbeat dad list. And I do not agree that once the court system STOPS "sticking it" to men that women will stop divorcing, because they can't get hubby's paycheck, that analysis is superficial. Women who are physically or emotionally abused just want out. Yes child support would help, but I doubt VERY MUCh that it is the deciding factor of to divorce or not!

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<BR>trying2_4give,<P>Some women divorce because of the expectation of financial reward (or at least, substantially less financial loss). Once the scales of justice are balanced, this incentive is removed. Hence, we should see the number of women filing fall somewhat. <P>I'm arguing for equality in the courts, and I'm predicting that the number of women who file will drop somewhat once the courts stop "sticking it" to men. As JL pointed out, perhaps my use of the term "incent" may be overstated...But it still follows that if women paid the SAME PRICE in divorce that men do, we'd see fewer women filing.<P>Bystander<BR>

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bystander, <P>You have made your point over and over. We don't need to hear the same argument repeated many times. If it didn't convince us the first time, it won't convince us the 100th time.<P>Just know that there are many people on this board (and out there in real life too) that disagree with you that there is a financial incentive to divorce and that the number of women filing will go down if they get less child support. <P>I think the link you made between the child support awards and the number of women filing is faulty. Women are filing because of much more than monetary reasons.<P>That said achieving balance in the courts is a good aim. I don't think anyone wants unfairness. But to say things like deadbeat dads are a myth is bound to inflame the many who are suffering because of deadbeat dads.<P>If you believe there is injustice, go ahead and fight the good fight. Just don't step on the already downtrodden in the process.

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THANK YOU TRUTHSEEKER!!!! Bystander you say you are speaking for a friend that this happened to, well have you thought that MAYBE just MAYBE your friend married someone who was just a money-hungry B%TCH! And that it was HIS bad judgement in the type of woman he chose, instead of the notion that "deadbeats don't exist" theory being used to try to ease a man's ego and pride.

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THANK YOU, THANK YOU TRUTHSEEKER!!! Bystander, did you ever conceive of the thought that instead of blaming the courts and the absurd notion that dead beats don't exist because of a book you read, that maybe your friend used bad judgement, married a money-hungry B$TCH and instead of admitting his mistake due to pride or ego, is using this to insight the ridiculous idea that women jump into divorce for monetary reasons. IMHO

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sorry i thought my original post was lost in space!

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Some women divorce because of the expectation of financial reward...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ROTFLMAO!!!<P>Thanks, I needed that laugh!

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When my H works, he brings home $720 a week. I was getting $300 weekly out of the goodness of his heart. Now I'm getting nothing until we go to court. BIG financial gain.<P>BTW, he has no monthly expenses. I have them. He left me with all of the bills and is living with someone who doesn't make him pay for anything.<BR>So do I deserve a boat load of money every month? YES! Am I getting it? NOPE! NOT YET!<p>[This message has been edited by Mitzi (edited March 14, 2000).]

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<BR>Truthseeker,<P>My hypothesis makes sense from the standpoint of an economist. Further, its falsifiable, and I've offered two ways to test it (e.g., random-assignment quasi-experimental design, or time series analysis). I'm really amazed that such a simple prediction, that women are incented to divorce, and removing these incentives would lower their propensity to divorce, has received such a vitriolic response in here. I'm fascinated that posters acknowledge that the divorce courts and custody courts are biased against men and in the same post claim that these differential financial outcomes don't influence decision-making. Lowering the price of toothpaste sells more tubes of toothpaste; it follows that lowering the cost of divorce to women "sells" them on filing for divorce.<P>Anyhow, I'm glad that we agree about the divorce courts and custody courts being biased against men. Fixing that will lower the percent of women who file for divorce. And if I'm wrong, we'll be doing the right thing anyhow.<P>Bystander

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Now he is equating the EMOTIONAL turmoil of women filing for divorce to the cost of toothpaste! WOW, now you are really desperate.

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<BR>trying2_4give,<P>You know, I'd go so far as to think that you're trying to make this ad hominem.<P>Basic microeconmic theory: If you lower the price of something, demand for it will go up. Because divorce is less costly to women, their demand for divorce is higher.<P>But trying2_4give, why the vitriol? There are plenty of injustices out there, and women abusing the divorce courts and custody courts is one of the injustices we can repair.<P>You know, the weird part is that I got interested in all this because of a friend of mine here in MB. I actually oppose the income shares method of awarding child support because I believe it encourages OWs to become pregnant in order to lay claim on a man's income. Last month I asked a very good NY family law attorney if he sees any of these intentional pregnancies because of the income shares system, and he confirmed that it does in fact happen. Imagine that! Women responding to economic incentives!<P>Bystander

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Bystander,<P>The thing that trying2_4give and others here are in opposition to is the assumption that the rules of economics apply in this case at all. Those rules apply if the object that is priced lower is something to be desired to begin with. Most people, women or men, would rather not divorce. And when they do, the experience is gut-wrenching for both sides. Lowering or raising the financial cost of doing so will not make much of a difference. The real price of divorce is MUCH higher than anything that could be measured financially.

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Amen, truthseeker!!!

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<BR>TruthSeeker,<P>Okay, I see what you're saying, and I think you're wrong. As gut-wrenching as divorce is, money *does* matter in these decisions. Its obvious to me that we aren't going to agree on this absent more data, so I'm going to stop now and offer this URL once again:<BR> <A HREF="http://users.erols.com/afc/minority1.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://users.erols.com/afc/minority1.htm</A> <P>Its long, but its worth the time.<P>Bystander

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