For the past ten months we have tried to save our marriage. No, let's be honest here, Allen has tried and I resisted. <P>We have been together 11 years this past Feb.<BR>We have laughed, we have cried, we have been blessed with three beautiful children. We have accomplished many things, but seldom together.<P>And the main thing we have failed to do is to learn how to grow together. We haven't learned how to help each other become who we want to be. <P>I believe in the marriage builder techniques. I believe they work, *if* both people want them to. There lies our problem. I can not commit to making our marriage work. <P>I have tried to break contact and have been unsuccessful. I have been honest with Allen about this. Is OM the reason I am leaving my marriage? Indirectly yes, but I can honestly say even if he were not in the picture I still have to get out. Our marriage is much more then the past 10 months.<P>I have known that for a long time now. Maybe I thought an affair would provide me the "escape" I needed. But Allen showed me how strong and committed he could be. (dang it ) <P>But I can't return that committment. And I refuse to keep destroying him by my actions.<BR>I can not continue to keep him here just to be my safety net. I can't stay just for security. I can't be the partner he deserves and I have to let him be happy also.<P>Do I believe I will be happy? Eventually. With who and when I have no expectations or hopes. And I believe with all my heart that Allen will be the one to find happiness first. All I can hope for is to discover myself.<P>In our marriage we have perfected our destructive behaviors of tearing each other down. We know exactly what cards to play to hurt each other the most. I am tired of the pain we are causing each other. I can't see how to fix it.<P>Well that is not true, I can see how to fix it, we both know how to fix it but we don't do it. Again, it comes down to commitment.<P>We have both grown an incredible amount the past 10 months, the unforunate part is we haven't transfered that growth and knowledge into our relationship.<P>I know some will say I am going for the quick fix, the easy route. For me staying would be the easy path. But I think it would also be a path that I would lose myself and Allen on eventually. At least at this point we can honestly express that we do love each other and want what is best for each other.<P>I realize some will say I am in a fantasy or stay for the kids or that you know we can do this. I respect your viewpoint and value your opinion. But it comes down to we are the ones who are living our lives.<P>I know some will wonder if this past weekend was the deciding factor. It wasn't. I have known what I was going to do since October, I have just been scared to do it. But it is time for me to do it.<P>I have considered things from every angle, I have tried in my own ways. I have tried for the kids. I have tried for Allen, I have tried because it is the right thing to do. But I realize I can't try if I can't commit.<BR>I can't try for something I don't want for me.<P>I love Allen. I know he views this as a personal rejection. But in all honesty it is not him. <P>It is me. <BR>It is me being unwilling to make a commitment. Me being unable to get past the resentment of him wanthing this now. Me needing to grow. This is not a reflection on my feelings for Allen. I know he could make me happy *if* I let him. <P>I appreciate everyone who has given us advice and support. I value the friendships I have made here and the wisdom I have gained. But at this point I can't tranfer it into our relationship and that leaves us where we are now.<P>We have agreed, grudingly, that divorce is the path we are going to take. We talked and cried and held each other and cried some more. But the end result is we are making ourselves, each other and our kids miserable. And yes I realize we will be even more miserable after a divorce but it will also lead all of us to happiness.<P>I have no idea what the future will hold. But I know I can't expect Allen to be my safetly net, to catch me if I fall. He has been my parent and protector for the past 11 years. It is time for me to grow up and stand on my own.<P>Again, I thank you all for the time you have given both of us and wish you all the best on your journey. I hope you all get what will make you happy in life.<P>Love, Cat<P>------------------<BR>Cat<P>catfrommb@yahoo.com<p>[This message has been edited by Caterpillar (edited April 18, 2000).]

No, lets be completely honest. Cat struggled for 10 years to save our marriage and when she realized it couldn't be saved, she got out. Or at least tried to. When she told me in Sept she wanted a divorce, I leapt into action, reading, growing, trying, everything I needed to do to try to save our marriage, but it was already over. It's just took the past 8 months for me to realize that. The damage to our so-called relationship was done and nothing I could have done would have made a difference. Jeez, I wasted 8 months of my life beating a dead horse. LOL That sucks. <P>But the past 8 months has not been a waste. I have been on a journey of self discovery that I have never experienced before and has started me on another journey, one that I hope leads back to Cat eventually. I have learned so much about myself, about Cat, about life, family, relationships, All the things that are really important. Now that I have this knowledge, I just need to apply it better. I have often wondered if I had found MB eight months ago if that would have helped, if I had done the perfect Plan A/Plan B, if, if, if. Now I know nothing I could have done would have changed the end result. For now anyway. I'm still optimistic that I can change still have a life with Cat, I just need to work on a couple of things.<P>One of those things is we both hold a power to destroy each other that we decide to use too damn frequently. I used that power to its full extreme Saturday and have regretted it ever since and will always regret it. Cat is right about that our destructive behaviors. She is also right that we have grown and learned so much the past 10 months, but until we grow up apart from each other, nothing can be saved. This relationship is over, dead, kaput, nada, etc, etc. I'm just hoping she agrees to a date on the day we sign the papers. <P>My Caterpillar is about to come out of her cocoon and become a truly beautiful butterfly. I do know I can't help her out because she will die, likewise I can't keep her in the bottle that has become our relationship. She can't stay because she is afraid and I can't stay for that reason either. Yes I am terrified. But I do look forward to a new life, hopefully with Cat. This is the one point I think we disagree on and hopefully I can persuade her to listen one of these days. She is the partner I deserve, we want the same things, we share a history, we have our children, we know how to do this. But I totally agree that we can't do it in our relationship as it stands now. I do believe it has to be a clean break to begin our new life together. I hope. If not, I’ll be ready to move on with an understanding of MB concepts and willingness to apply them.<P>I love you Cat<P>I love all of the people here who have supported us, questioned us, helped us, and otherwise followed our little saga. To all of you I say THANK YOU, FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART. I hope to continue here, offering my advice on how not to Plan A, sharing my successes and failures, and hopefully supporting the many new faces we see here every week.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Allen<BR>sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com

{{{{{{{{{{Dog}}}}}}}}},<P>I feel for you guy...<BR>... the struggle was hard...<BR>... you will survive... <P>---------------------------------------------<P>{{{{{{{{{{Cat}}}}}}}}}},<BR>I also feel for you...<BR>...but (forgive me)...<BR>...you're surrendering to a future hell.<P>...I read your post...<BR>...It was from the textbook my W read to me...for a year.<BR>...I hope the best for you... I really feel your road will be the much harder one...<BR>...Knowing what is right and turning your back on it... isn't growth... never will be.<BR>...Saying you can't commit... when the OM is in the picture is more than obvious.<BR>...Allen's not your safety net... he never was... he's just your partner... for life.<BR>...I'm praying for you... believe me... I really am... (after I wipe away the tears...)<P>Jim

You know I rarely post anymore, but I'm on vacation this week and decided to check in...<P>Cat and Sparky, <P>David and I could have written this too... we are seperated but love each other enough to let the other one go - to grow, to make mistakes, and maybe even to find each other in the end. And how well I understand the history and pain that makes you repeat the same old mistakes over and over again with each other. Sometimes, the kindest thing to do is to back away and both of you (and us too) find what we really need to survive and succeed. <P>I personally wish you much happiness, and ask that you both be very careful... as David and I are going to try to do too. This is a time of great vulnerability for all of us.<P>God bless you!<P>Sheryl

Ohhhhh man...you guys are giving me chills. I feel like we're on the same path to a 'T' and your situation is exactly where we'll be sooner or later. You even sound like Vicky and I (this is very X-File like...did you two happen to honeymoon in Toronto and/or treasure those little carnival photo booths built for two? )<BR> Our dilemna is still in it's infancy, but by reading your thoughts and emotions, at least I have hope for peace now with whatever turns out.<P>God bless you...<P>theo

I have tears in my eyes as I read all this...<BR>Only the 2 of you can really know what is in your hearts, and so can make this painful decision. Best wishes for a good future for each of you, and for your kids...<BR>Hugs--<BR>Kathi

<P>I am so sad for you two! I'm so sorry you guys!<P>I understand your need to try to have some closure here. My advice is to please don't close the door completely. You both need time alone to grow. I would also advise you to not get any 3rd parties involved right away if you truly want to find "yourselves".<P>I am a firm believer in standing for your marriage. As you both know, I have had many ups and downs. God has seen me through it and now it looks like I am going up. Both of you helped me with this and I thank you both so much! <P>God might be putting you two through this to find a better, more healthy relationship with EACHOTHER in the future. Please don't rule this out. <P>If there is any way you two could possibly read "How God Can and Will Restore Your Marriage" before finalizing the divorce, I would ask that you do that. There is a male and a female version. Think of it as a last-ditch effort to "make sure" this is the right thing to do. It has helped me and my friend Ginnie tremendously. We have grown so much in the past month by just trying to please God.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.restorem.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.restorem.org</A> <P>Don't hesitate to e-mail them either. Erin e-mail me almost every day with wisdom and scripture to consider. Dan e-mails the guys.<P>I know that you both know that God hates divorce. That doesn't mean he hates YOU if you DO get divorced, but it is definitely not his will. I couldn't live with myself if I didn't point that fact out again. <P>Maybe the best option is to become the best "you's" that you know how to be and to not ever give up on the possibility of reconciliation in the future. There was definitely enough love there in the past to make you want to get married and have children. It doesn't just die...it just gets "misplaced". Even if your divorce is finalized, God would truly love nothing more than to see you get back together. <P>I wish you guys had given the MB telephone counseling a shot. Is there any possibility of trying it just once?<P>Please know that we all love you here. We also know that it takes two. <P>My prayers are with you two! Please don't quit posting. You both need support now more than ever! <P>TB

I'll come out of my silence for this one. (Damn, I didn't even make it one day! )<P>Cat and Sparky, I am truly sorry. It seems like the two of you do have some love for each other and I really had hopes for you. But you know your lives better than I, so I know you've made the best decision you could have.<P>Cat, something you said got my attention <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>For me staying would be the easy path. But I think it would also be a path that I would lose myself and Allen on eventually.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I would like to recommend a book for you. It's called "Do I Have to Give Up Me to Be Loved By You." Some of it can be used in conjunction with MB methods (openness and honesty, POJA to a degree) And some of it flies in the face of MB. <P>I strongly suggest reading it before giving up completely. I was feeling very discouraged thinking that in order for my marriage to work I had to give up too much of myself. This book changed my mind. I'm willing to try for real now. I'm not yet committed to the marriage itself, but I am committed to exploring its possibilities.<P>Give it a read. It can't hurt.<P><BR>

Cat, read your email.

Cat: Dearest friend: No one can make you happy, but you as I am sure you already know. I hear alot of similarities in your's and Sparky's relationship as was in ours. I know your feelings very well and have had to undergo major changes in order for me to grow. I have learned through my harrowing and scary experiences that only I can take charge of my life with or without my spouse. I had many decisions to make and some were going to be final. My spouse too, learned from his mistakes and also had to make some decisions. He finally was willing to let me go and move out on my own. I had to rethink if this is where I truly wanted to be. I have heard in the past that marriage is hard work, but the benefits can be wonderful if both contribute. I went into my marriage with a false idea of what marriage should be based on false advertising and media hype. I thought about when my spouse and I were first dating and how he was so sweet and obliging until I became pregnant. I also had my mask on in the courting years. We went about our relationship all wrong and practically destroyed ourselves. Now we have been given another chance. I had chosen to stay with him partly because I still loved him as I hear you say you feel for Sparky. I know we can be happy together "I know he can make me happy if I let him". I know we will continue to grow and learn together as with you and your need to grow and Sparky's willingness to grow. You can move spouse from the role of parent to the role of friend. I have done it many times since. I have reminded my spouse, I am a big girl and if I need your help, believe me I will ask. And yes, there has been times when I have asked. We all need a safety net at some point in our lives. I am not trying to convince in either direction, but I am trying to have you review your feelings, options, pro-cons before making your final decision. Because like the t.v show, if that is your final answer, there may be no going back. I will keep you in my prayers and whatever decision you make, you will always have me as a friend. <BR>Allen: My prayers are with you as well and you will always have me as your friend. Sometimes events have a way of working themselves out and in most cases for the better. Good luck to you both!

Cat:<P>I guess the best "saying" I can come up with to describe this is that pithy playground chant (taunt):<P>"Quitters never win...<BR>...winners never quit"<P>What'd you want to be? A winner or quitter? What do you want to teach your kids: when things get tough, quit?<P>I'd strongly urge you to get into real counseling with one of the Harley's. I don't give a crap if you don't agree with the methods---I just like to see you stop with the indecision and do it for 6 months. <P>And then be amazed at the results.<P>Divorce??? No where do I see Harley stating that divorce is ok, as long as you use the "Policy of Grudging Agreement". Sorry, it's a lousy decision based on pretty illogical reasoning. You may have learned something by hanging out around here---but you've got a whole more learning to do. I hope for your sake, as well as your family's sake, that you reconsider and learn these lessons together, productively.

<small>[ February 27, 2005, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Jim, Sheryl, Theo, Kathi, TB, TS, Rose, K, and Hanora. What more can I say than, Thanks!!! For your prayers, advice, support, everything.<P>I would love to answer you all individually, but the coworkers might wonder what is going on as I sit here blubbering. LOL <P>I think Sheryl said it best for our situation:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>we are seperated but love each other enough to let the other one go - to grow, to make mistakes, and maybe even to find each other in the end. And how well I understand the history and pain that makes you repeat the same old mistakes over and over again with each other. Sometimes, the kindest thing to do is to back away and both of you (and us too) find what we really need to survive and succeed.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He11 folks, I think we are both happier now than we have been in years. Nothing hanging over our heads, a chance to just be with each other as friends and lovers, not one who is desperately trying to save a marriage and one who is just as desperately trying to get out of it. <P>We are going to try and file ourselves to save some money, because we actually love each other and can do this together. Sort of one last project to handle as a team. LOL Who knows, maybe a chance to really get to know what drives the other.<P>I am excited. I will get the chance to become who I am and not someone who I think someone else wants. I will get to play softball, basketball, golf, go hiking and camping, fish and hunt, learn to play guitar, finally get my professional credentials, maybe go for my Masters, own a German Shepard named Luke Plus a thousand other things I thought I had to put off until the kids were grown and Cat and I were finally alone.<P>But I realize now I shouldn't have put those things off. By failing to do the things I'm passionate about, I lost the passion for doing anything and it has shown in my behaviors, attitudes, and actions in school, marriage, parenting, work, and life.<P>That is probably the most important lesson I've learned through all of this. It is okay to be selfish because passion begets passion. I have to do things for me or why would I want to do anything for anyone else. But I have to learn to do these things with consideration of the other people in my life. Giver vs. Taker Learning to balance these two parts of you is the key I think.<P>Sorry for the length. I am excited to start my "new" life and share some of the things I've learned about myself through this process. Maybe it will inspire someone to do something that inspires them, that generates passion within them, and in turn, they can share that passion with their loved ones.<P>Again thanks everyone for everything. It really helps knowing you are all out there.<P>------------------<BR>Allen<BR>sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com

Well, it was almost a whole day this time...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I am excited. I will get the chance to become who I am and not someone who I think someone else wants. I will get to play softball, basketball, golf, go hiking and camping, fish and hunt, learn to play guitar, finally get my professional credentials, maybe go for my Masters, own a German Shepard named Luke Plus a thousand other things I thought I had to put off until the kids were grown and Cat and I were finally alone.<P>But I realize now I shouldn't have put those things off. By failing to do the things I'm passionate about, I lost the passion for doing anything and it has shown in my behaviors, attitudes, and actions in school, marriage, parenting, work, and life.<P>That is probably the most important lesson I've learned through all of this. It is okay to be selfish because passion begets passion. I have to do things for me or why would I want to do anything for anyone else. But I have to learn to do these things with consideration of the other people in my life. Giver vs. Taker Learning to balance these two parts of you is the key I think.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sparky, I couldn't have said it better. <P>Don't ever put your dreams on hold. I made that mistake as well. Your dreams are the very things that can keep a relationship strong if you share them with your partner. <P>That's what it's all about isn't it? Understanding each other and sharing your dreams? And sharing all the pleasures and pains of attempting to achieve them? Together?<P> I'm feeling a little philosophical today. Must be the full moon...<P>

Sparky: More power to both of you! I wish the Spirits of Happiness upon you and Cat and may you both achieve your dreams, develop your strengths and live to ride(oops! wrong code) live for today!<P>So you're naming the dog "Luke". How about a snake? (8 1/2 ft. boa to be exact) She doesn't mind being called "Luke". Good price too. How about some birds? Cockatiels? They don't mind being called "Luke" either. In fact you can take them all for a good price and call them all "Luke" They are excellent watch animals, plus mouse catchers, telephone receptionists, dust busters and alarm clocks. We'll throw in the cages and the family dog(stinks real bad because she loves to swim in creek) for free. How about a couple of teenagers? Guaranteed to drive the neighbors crazy with loud heavy metal music, back talk, dirty socks and gym clothes , squealing tires(cars not included), constant screaming of "I'll tell mom", will eat you out of house and home and then raid the neighbors fridge as well as teepee the neighbors house and lawn. :-))))) Forget the teenagers. What would I do without them. I'm kind of use to the smelly gym clothes. Have a great day! Let me know how you and Cat are doing. My love and prayers to you both.

TS<P>The full moon brings that out in people. Last night I was driving home from work at 2:00. The moon was blazing in the sky, helping me avoid the deer in the road. LOL<P>Anyway I was thinking how much it reminded me of Cat. A beautiful thing, but really dead and lifeless inside. Earlier that evening we walked to McDonalds w/ the kids and we were laughing, running, playing, esp. Cat. I thought, there is the woman I am in love with and I can only see her when I let her go. That is how it has to be. She will be alive inside soon and still be beautiful and this will all be worth it. <P>Dear sweet Rose,<P>Thanks for your kind words and well wishes, but... I'm going to have to turn you down on the offer of the snake. They give me the heebiest of jeebies. Strange thing for a farm boy to say, but true. Ugh can't stand them. And I've got four years till I get my own teenagers so I'll just wait till then if ya don't mind. <P>------------------<BR>Allen<BR>sparky_dog_mb@yahoo.com

You both seem to be happy about this decision for different reasons. As NSR said CAt will have the tougher road. But please Cat be honest enough to admit that OM is directly responsible for your decision. You are not fooling anyone here.<P><BR>I guess the only question I have is what happens when divorce is final and she begins to pursue OM in earnest? Or maybe she already is. Will you see this decision as the best? If she and OM move in together, get married? Don't get your hopes up that there is a chance for you and she like NSR said she is talking right out of the Betrayers handbook. <P>[This message has been edited by TMD (edited April 19, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by TMD (edited April 20, 2000).]