...and then we could always get into the discussion of those that have affairs, but<BR>claim it hurt no one til the betrayed found out! Cold & calculated or addicted? cl<BR>____________________________________________<P>I believe all of the above.........

WOW!,<P>this was great reading. Goes to show that there there are millions of opinions out there, two sides to every story.<P>One learns most from mistakes, and the growth is trememdous if one looks critically at one's actions.<P>People have different genetic makeups which can be difficult to overcome. But everyone should reread this whole thread again so as to remind themselves of these different view points, and each has a valid viewpoint, although different.<P>Maturity comes from making mistakes and learning from them. everybody has different levels of it at different times in their lives. Everyone here should be learning like a case study in graduate school, and everyone here should be following the principles of MB so as to never make another mistake in their lives again! (tongue in cheek) <P>thl<BR>

Lady M - <P>If you were to re-read all of Tired Lady's posts, all of my posts, you would realize that in our case, I tried very hard to save my marriage and make it work. Many, many years before I even knew who Mia was,let alone work with her. Through TL's own writing, she takes responsibility for her contribution in the breakdown of our relationship, just as I have taken 100% responsibility for having gotten involved in an affair. Never during the years preceeding my affair did I "just want out". On the contrary, I suggested counseling. I tried every evening starting conversations to determine how we could (TL and I) get back on track in our marriage. You know, sometimes, and I know this will sound insensitive to some of you, you just can't do anymore and you give up. You get tired of making the advances only to be shot down time after time after time. Eventually, you just stop trying. That's what happened to us. <P>Anyone who suggests that we (TL nor I) or just me for that matter, "just wanted out" certainly didn't live our 18 year marriage with us. That is why this forum is so important for everyone to come here and voice their stories and/or respective opinions without feeling like it's always one side vs. the other. There are no sides here, just different human beings with different life experiences.<BR>

EM: The thing is that sure...you & TL were having problems in your marriage...but it is hard to save your marriage when one person isn't working towards that. All right, I understand that. But the thing is, TL finally started to acquire the tools to work on the marriage. Unfortunately, it seems that it took your affair to get her to start working on it.<P>Now that she was willing to work on the marriage, YOU weren't 100% there. Your heart was still with Mia. I don't believe that you gave it 100% towards trying to rebuild. <BR>Maybe you acted withdrawn because you were still pining for Mia. The betrayed can sense when their betraying spouse's are distracted or their heart isn't in to it.<P>That's why I believe that TL gave up on you and let you be with Mia. In your Posts, you keep writing about how TL ran up the debt, didn't listen, etc. etc. etc. Were you telling her these things during the recovery stage? Maybe you were lovebusting all over just like she did. All this would make recovery tough. It sounds like she just gave up on you and that you were already and willing to go back so eagerly to Mia.<P>Isn't that where you are now? Happily ever after??<P>I think that the right thing to do was to have given your marriage more time to recover...especially since both you & TL were trying to make a go for it. It didn't take less than 1 year for your marriage to deteriorate. Therefore, it won't take less than 1 year for it to recover either.<P>Your marriage could have been saved, but it sounds like you already had a plan.<P>In addition, I remember when Mia started posting here. How did she find out that TL was a member of this forum and posting here for support? Was that when you & TL were trying to recover? Did you tell Mia that TL was posting here?<P>TL is/was vulnerable and in pain. I thought it was in bad taste that Mia started reading TL's posts and replying to them. That really is sickening!<P>I know that if the OW were to give her 2 cents in my Posts that it would give me even more reason to hate her.<P>It's no wonder TL had a hard time in recovery. You wonder why? Mia never left the picture!<P>Whatever TL did in your marriage, she didn't deserve to be treated the way that you treated her. If and when you marry Mia, are you also going to speak the same vows, "For better or for worse??"<p>[This message has been edited by NoTrust (edited June 01, 2000).]

EM - Obviously what I described is just one possible scenario, with many variations. That your marriage was troubled for a long time is just an indication that the right things were not being done, or possibly only given lip service? After so much trying with no sucess, perhaps you should have honestly ended it fairly and honestly. But if you were not sure you wanted to end it yet, you had no business getting involved with someone else until you were sure!! Sit on the fence, if you must - but sit there alone, and tell your spouse why you are sitting there!! Honor your marriage vows until you can honestly say you want out and cannot try anymore. After all, this is what you promised when you married your wife. What did you think "for better or for worse" meant? It did not mean "as long as it's convenient for me and until someone better comes along." Affairs are about self-interest - the betrayer gets involved because they think it will be beneficial to them - if not, they wouldn't do it. Of course, affairs can masquerade as "love" (it makes them more acceptable). Also, saying "I take full responsibility" can be justlip service, and just a means to excuse oneself, as if taking responsibility excuses lying and cheating. The time to control your behavior is before you make a mistake - it's a little too late after the damage has been done to say "I couldn't help it."

EM - Obviously what I described is just one possible scenario, with many variations. That your marriage was troubled for a long time is just an indication that the right things were not being done, or possibly only given lip service? After so much trying with no sucess, perhaps you should have honestly ended it fairly and honestly. But if you were not sure you wanted to end it yet, you had no business getting involved with someone else until you were sure!! Sit on the fence, if you must - but sit there alone, and tell your spouse why you are sitting there!! Honor your marriage vows until you can honestly say you want out and cannot try anymore. After all, this is what you promised when you married your wife. What did you think "for better or for worse" meant? It did not mean "as long as it's convenient for me and until someone better comes along." Affairs are about self-interest - the betrayer gets involved because they think it will be beneficial to them - if not, they wouldn't do it. Of course, affairs can masquerade as "love" (it makes them more acceptable). Also, saying "I take full responsibility" can be just lip service, and just a means to excuse oneself, as if taking responsibility excuses lying and cheating. The time to control your behavior is before you make a mistake - it's a little too late after the damage has been done to say "I couldn't help it."

Exhausted Man...<BR>I have a question for you<BR>I am seeking a man's point of view...as a man that tried and his wife didn't meet half way.<BR>Nothing again TL...at all...I know she must hurt and very deeply. <BR>My question is...<BR>I tend to do that too...bring things up that are wrong and have been done wrong to my husband (remarried, less than a year)<BR>Is it best to just let things go and not discuss them? In your mind as a husband, as a man.<BR>Can it be right if something is bothering me so much and I want to try and work something out...that I just keep it inside, and this will keep the mood light and our time together better. But better for him?<BR>Him because he doesn't have to face certain issues? I'm confused.<BR>I want to understand.<BR>I want to do what's best.<BR>No sense in beating a dead horse.<BR>Is it more appealing for a man if the woman doesn't bring stuff up. Will the guy eventually bring it up himself.<BR>I'm just looking for your male opinion<BR>thanks<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"I didn't want to do the hard work involved in trying to save my marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>But most betrayers felt (rightly or wrongly) they DID do the work befoe they started thinking they were somehow "owed" something to make them happy & dump us for the op.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Chris - Just wanted to make sure that I clarified that quote you used in your post was NOT mine - it was written by Lady M.<P>I did want to try and fix things. I did TRY to reach TL to fix things. Not just words of justification. What I have written I have meant with sincerity.<P>EM

sorry, double post<P>EM<p>[This message has been edited by Exhausted Man (edited June 02, 2000).]