I have been coming to this site since August of 1999 and I have been bothered by things pertaining to religious beliefs but have not said anything up to this point, but I can no longer hold it back.<P>I have no problem with people having their own religious beliefs, I don't even have a problem with people professing their beliefs, but I do have a problem with people trying to put their beliefs on other people and telling them that they are wrong for their own particular beliefs. It really disturbs me when I hear these people saying that they have the <B>TRUTH</B> <P>People come here because of the pain that they are enduring in their lives now, people from all walks of life and backgrounds and dare I say, religious or spiritual beliefs, and I can't believe the arrogance of some people to tell others that their faith or beliefs are wrong because they know the TRUTH. Christians, Jews, Muslims all believe in the same God, but they all have different beliefs as to how to worship Him and how to one day go back home to Him. These religions themselves have been broken up by different beliefs, since most here are Christians I will use them as an example, Christians are broken up into Catholics and Protestants, and the Protestants are broken up into denominations, all which have different interpretations of the Bible. <P>To those of you who know the TRUTH, think about this.......your truth may not be someone else's truth, that doesn't make you right or wrong and it doesn't make the other person right or wrong, no one really knows the "TRUTH", we all will find out what the truth is one day, but until then, all we can do is have faith in our own particular beliefs and not be so arrogant that we put each other down for not believing in the same things that we do. <P>This posting has little to do with building marriages or recovering from an affair, but it was something that I needed to vent about because I have seen it on many threads and it has always been somewhat offensive to me.<P>Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the Bible, Torah and Quran all speak of loving each other, supporting each other and not judging each other? Judgement will come one day for us all, and maybe those doing the judging now may be in for a big suprise.<BR>

So does it bother you when we say that we are praying for you or saying things like God help everyone on this board.<P>Those are the only type things I have seen that express religious views, so maybe I don't know to what posts you are referring.

FA i haven't seen any threads in the past that have knocked another person's religious belief. I pretty much keep quiet, due to the fact that I am not religious at all. It's especially hard for me when people say to "Pray" or to "Let God.....". But hey, i don't mind, that is a part of their life and I wouldn't knock it and I don't expect anyone to knock what I believe, but if they do then that's an issue that they need to work on because it is them that has the problem not I. But it was a good topic that you posted, i think everyone should respect each others religious views no matter what.

Lapeine - No that doesn't bother me at all, whether I believed in God or not, and I do, it would show me that you cared and were concerned, which is what I think most people come to this site for, someone to care and be concerned about the pain that they are going through. I have a problem with people who judge others by their own personal religious beliefs, or who tell or imply to others that their beliefs are wrong because they are different from their own, because they know the TRUTH.<P>I could point you to some of the posts, but I don't want to call anyone out and start a big argument, but there are posts here that do exactly that, and it was reading one of them that caused me to vent.

F.A.,<P>I hope this makes sense, I had to take my son to the hospital last night and haven't had but 2 hours sleep since Monday morning. So, if this makes no sense....just skip it.<P>Jumping into the subject, I can understand what you are feeling. I have been raised in what the cultural would call a conservative Christain environment and I'm married to a fundimentalist, who, at times, sees me as liberal. And, I do get frustrated with those who cannot civily discuss differences bc each view point has a certain amount of validity to it.....and deserves the respect of the other views bc these views are held by a hurting person, who is worthy of our love and respect just because he/she is a fellow human being. <P>With this in mind, those who are religious cannot force our judgement on those who are not religious AND just bc someone isn't religious, I don't think they have the right to stiffle all religious comments from those who are. All of us need to respect each other for just being hurting folks trying to save our marriages.<P>But, I've learned to accept others as where they are....non-religious, religious,liberal or fundimentalist or legalist. If I don't care for the message (written or spoken) I don't bother with it. Unless, I've been invited to discuss the points in a civil manner. <P>The great thing about the board is, you can skip what you don't like.<P>Also, my faith is my moral compass. Without it, I would have left my marriage long ago. The principles that I've been taught, have kept me here with my W. So, my belief system, whether I make it obvious or not, influences the post I've made here. So, I have a difficult time seperating me from my faith. And, no, I don't quote scripture and very seldom mention God here. And I do appreciate everyone who prays for me.<P>And, in the name of liberty, I don't think others should have to keep their views to themselves....there's that little First Admendment thing. BUT, I do think everyone needs to respect each other and each other's right to think differently and discuss this in a very civil manner.<P>As for matters of the Trinity, which faith is TRUTH, predestination, baptism...., this isn't the forum for these discussions unless they are directly related to ones issues with their spouse.<P>Actually, I've been more dismayed at some of the sour, bitter, caddy, down-right-mean comments rather than the religious ones. BUT, I can choose not to read anything here if I don't like where it is going.<P>Well, I need sleep....my W will need a break from the hospital in a few hours....Nothing serious with the kid....just the cruppy cough. He'll be fine in a few days!

trying2_4give - If I were you, I would take the "Pray" or "Let God....." comments as concern for what you are feeling or thinking, I wouldn't get offended either.<P>nowhereman - I agree wholeheartedly with what you said <B>"All of us need to respect each other for just being hurting folks trying to save our marriages"</B> that's why I posted this, I just grew kinda upset reading posts where religious beliefs were being pushed on to others. I have my own personal religious beliefs and I try to respect others, I just have a problem with telling me or anybody else that they are wrong because they have the TRUTH.

Maybe I have noticed the "religious" references more just because I'm not in one of the "Big 3" religions. Sometimes people do seem to be pushing their beliefs off on others, but I also think many are just offering comfort. In my case, having an affair is wrong because it hurts other people. Period. It hurts the spouse who's been faithful, it hurts the children, it hurts the peripheral family members, it hurts the betrayer, and it hurts the OP and his/her family too. A religious book doesn't have to tell me adultery is wrong...it just takes common sense. Anytime you injure someone, whether emotional or physical, you ultimately injure yourself too. My beliefs tend to be rather liberal so I don't normally take offense to others' religious views. Only when I am told outright that my beliefs are not valid does it bother me. I think this place is not the place to air our religious beliefs and yes respect for one another certainly should be our goal. It is frustrating when someone persists in pushing their viewpoint.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

I, too, have noticed a lot of religious references, as have Keri and FA. Yes, I can choose what to read, but I wonder how I would react if I found a response to a topic I posted extoling the virtues of one particular flavor of religion over another. And, yes, I can choose not to read something, but only after I have begun to read it and possibly been hurt by it.<P>I'm not talking about people writing things like "You're in my prayers." Like FA, I find that comforting. I appreciated it when someone had a mass said for my father, though no one in my family is Catholic. I appreciated it when another friend included my family at Tet, though I don't believe what I do at Tet sets what I do the entire year.<P>I'm just asking that you be aware that phrases such as "Christian values" are exclusionary. If your reaction my writing that is, "To me Christian values and values are really the same thing," then just say values. If you are a Chritian, think how you would feel if I were to post something about wiccan values and received five posts agreeing with the virtues of wicca. Would you not feel excluded from the conversation?<P>Many of us find comfort in religion, and I appreciate that you want to share what has brought you comfort. However, religion is a personal choice. We are all in so much pain here, can we not try to avoid inflicting more upon any one of our number?<P>Thanks for listening. --HBC

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sweetpea:<BR><B>As a Christian, I do believe that there is only one truth, although I respect the fact that not everyone believes the same way.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I have no problem with that at all, my problem is with those who do not respect the beliefs of others.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I hope non-Christians will understand that I am speaking strictly from a Christian viewpoint. I also hope they won't take offense at those Christians who are eager to share their faith. It is simply because we find great joy and contentment in our faith and want to "spread the Good News", as we are indeed supposed to do, according to our beliefs.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, I have no problem with those who want to share their faith, but if I or others don't share that same view, don't tell me or others that we are wrong because you know the "TRUTH", that is so offfensive to me. It has not personally happened to me on this site, but I have read other posts where this has happened and it did disturb me.<P>And no sweetpea, I'm not saying that I have ever seen you do that. <p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited June 14, 2000).]

First of all, and someone correct me if I am wrong, I believe this website is somewhat "Christian oriented" to begin with, so it shouldn't be a surprise that people with strong Christian beliefs post here. I personally do not attend any church, though I have a strong belief in God. Just to let you know where I am coming from...<P>All of you are anonymous strangers to me. Therefore, nothing that anyone says here can possibly be personal. Everything said here is just some unknown person's opinion. If I ask a friend or family member for advice and they offend me, I can take it up with them, but anything you post here is just going out into the world to be read by anyone. With the exception of someone who is spouting hate speech, how can you possibly know what may offend someone?! I couldn't have children and couldn't afford to adopt any. The whole process of finding out that I was infertile and dealing with that knowledge was incredibly painful. Does that mean I have the right to tell all of you to stop posting anything about your kids because it makes me feel bad and that you are pushing your children in my face? Of course not! It is *my* job to deal with the information out there, process it, decide what to absorb and what to ignore and just go on with my life. <P>If I see a post from someone who is expressing strong religious beliefs different from my own, I just think, "Wow! They have strong beliefs!" and go on to the next post. I have developed my own spiritual life and am secure in it. How on earth could a stranger POSSIBLY be insulting me personally by offering heartfelt spiritual assistance that comes from their heart?! Even if it doesn't mean anything to me, it meant something to them and that's what's important . They were reaching out to try to help a stranger in pain. This is how I feel no matter what religion they practice.<P>I am sorry to go off like that, but the world is full of very different people, all of whom think they are right. You have to make your own plan and follow it without worrying about people hurting your feelings. <P>That being said, everyone here is dealing with incredible amounts of pain, so it's understandable if some of us get testy from time to time.

Dancer812 <P>I think you missed the point of the post, it was not to tell anyone not to express their religious beliefs, please re-read what I have posted. My problem doesn't come from getting or seeing people get advice that they solicited, whether the advice be religious or not. My problem is when people on this site tell other people that they are wrong in their own beliefs, instead of respecting the beliefs of others while holding on to your own. Reaching out to help other's in pain, is not telling them that they are the holders of TRUTH and what you may believe is wrong, how is that helping those that are in pain? So yes I have gotten testy after biting my tongue for many months, and again, nothing has been directed at me, it is from reading other threads where there are a couple of people that seem to always to <B>TELL OTHERS WHAT THEY SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT BELIEVE</B>, and that is what I have a problem with.

Could someone please point me to the page of this site that says it is Christian-oriented? Thanks in advance. --HBC

F A,<P>While I've seen many religious references, I'm not sure I've seen one telling someone they are wrong, etc.<P>Personally, I am certainly one of the hurting, learning, trying to lend a hand in addressing the marital issues directly. I almost never even mention religion on this site and you are welcome to confirm that.<P>OR are you taking issue with any one religion claiming to be the TRUTH? I must say that baited me to reply.<P>We Christians have really made a mess of things with all the different branches as you pointed out. (Although I would safely say we agree on 90+% of the core doctrine. It's always the less important things groups have divided over.)<P>But if you are taking issue with us claiming that it Christianity is the only TRUTH, you better take that up with our founder. Jesus claimed to be THE TRUTH, THE ONLY WAY, THE LIFE.<P>I can't for the life of me figure how so many have acknowledged him as a good man and teacher and freely borrowed his teachings on loving one's neighbor. He could not possibly be a good man with these kind of claims, and they pervade the gospels.<P>Either he was egotistical if not demented, or He truly was Who He claimed.<P>I am a Christian because I believe in what He said and did.<P>I have studied the other great religions before converting.<P>This is a VERY brief synopsis of what I found:<P>Who was prophesied for centuries before his birth? Only Jesus <P>Who was born of a virgin (she too was accused of infidelity, by the way)?<BR> Only Jesus <P>Who healed the sick and raised the dead?<BR> Only Jesus <P>Who died an atoning death for mankind?<BR> Only Jesus<P>Who resurrected from the dead? Only Jesus<P>Who ascended to heaven and claimed he was returning to judge the world?<BR> Only Jesus<P>Jesus claimed that exclusivity and is absolutely unique in history. We must all choose to believe Him or not. There are no close seconds. The other greats - Muhammed, Buddha, Moses, etc. could be compared to the # 2 man St. Paul, but not to Jesus.<P>F A, I think you were challenging more than just insensitive posters. I am no apologist, but I sensed a deeper challenge in your thread so I've tried to reply. I'm not telling anyone what they should believe, but I feel no arrogance in saying He is the TRUTH.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HurtButCoping:<BR><B>Could someone please point me to the page of this site that says it is Christian-oriented? Thanks in advance. --HBC</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>HBC, I will be the first to admit I may be wrong about this website. I have been coming here off and on for almost 2 years and I have always had that impression for some reason. I think that when I first came here, there were pop-up banners for religious sites and the fact that both Dr. Harley (the elder) and his wife have talk shows on a religious radio station may have (erroneously) led me to belive that. I did go check out the site and I agree, there is no mention made of religion now. My apologies for making groundless statements.<P>FA, I can honestly say that I have never read anyone here telling another person that what they believe is *wrong*, unless someone said that it is wrong to have an affair. I think I read the post that "broke the camel's back" for you and as far as I could see, a person solicited advice and someone else gave them what is their own religion's set of beliefs about what the questioner should do. So what? It's a part of each religion to stand fast in the face of the world and other's beliefs. If you know what you yourself believe and you think the person giving you advice is a crackpot - just blow them off! Their words and beliefs have no meaning to you or power over you so don't waste precious time even thinking about it.<P>I am not an argumentative person by nature (well, maybe I am... )and I hope you haven't taken anything I have said as a personal attack. I just think it is self defeating to give a total stranger's opinions power over you. You *definitely* have a right to express how you feel about the situation, the same as I do, but so does the person preaching their religion, whether we like it or not.<BR>

FA,<BR>As Schizzo so eloquently stated. Your issue is not with Christians. Your issue is with God because it is His word that distinguishes what is TRUTH. Using your my truth and your truth approach is problematic when those truths are at odds with each other. For example, I say it is wrong to kill innocent new born babies and someone else says it is right to innocent new born babies. Who is right? I know this is an extreme example but this is what you advocate.<P>Your post in and of itself says that Christians are wrong. <B>Not all</B> who profess to be Christian are Christians because He discusses this possibility also in His word. And there is only one path to God as Schizzo so eloquently stated.<P>True Christians are not telling you what you should believe. We are only telling you what He said is. It goes beyond belief. It goes to knowing and is as you know that you are alive and breathing. It is not a belief that you are alive and breathing.<P>Schizzo, you are not a professional apologist but an apologist never the less because you are His child.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited June 14, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by professorg:<BR><B>As Schizzo so eloquently stated. Your issue is not with Christians. Your issue is with God because it is His word that distinguishes what is TRUTH.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Please somebody tell me when I wrote that I had an issue with Christians. I used Christianity, out of 3 major religions that I posted, as an example of how their are different interpretations and beliefs by people of the same faith, I could easily have done the same thing with the Jewish and Islamic faiths. Please don't be so defensive that you start seeing things that are not there, I never, ever stated I had a problem with Christians, for all you know I could be a Christian.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Your post in and of itself says that Christians are wrong. Not all</B> who profess to be Christian are Christians because He discusses this possibility also in His word. And there is only one path to God as Schizzo so eloquently stated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>At what point did I say Christians are wrong, I never stated that Christians were the ones telling others that they were wrong and that they were the only ones that knew the TRUTH, could you please point out that quote. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>True Christians are not telling you what you should believe. We are only telling you what He said is.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I will stand by my original post. I have a problem with anybody, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Islamic or any other faith telling other people that theirs is the only way to God, or that theirs is the TRUTH. If that is what you believe, then fine, live according to that belief, but I'm sure I'm not the only one here that has seen some people attempt to push their beliefs on to others. Please go back and re-read what was <B>actually written</B> by me, before attributing to me words that were not written by me, I'm capable of writing exactly what I mean.<P>I could get into a debate about the above quotes, but that's not what I initially posted for, I posted because of the exact thing that you have done, you have given me your beliefs as the absolute truth and anything different from your beliefs now goes against God.........that is a little arrogant if you ask me.

FA,<BR>You say that there are many paths to God. Jesus said that there is only one: through Him. <P>I don't have a problem with others believing what they choose to believe. But there is a place that is higher than believing: it is knowing. As a Christian, it is my responsibility out of love for Him and my fellowing human being to show where there is error. I honestly expect the same from others because I don't know everything. He is still working on me as He is working on everyone whether realized or not. He uses everyone and everything to show us where we are wrong. Yes, I am wrong quite often because He is continually molding me into Jesus's image the example of perfection in human form. Jesu was and always will be the only perfect human being.<P>The other religions you refer to are centered around human beings that never professed to be God and never proved with history to support their ascertions. The Bible is full of prophesy that has come true and is yet to come true.<P>In your original post you said that we all can have our TRUTH be right. This only exists in the finite worlds that we create in our minds. It is that kind of thinkng that leads people to think that affairs are okay. There has to be an absolute truth external to what we all feel and think so that it is objective rather than subjective which is the tone in what you posted.<P>It wasn't until I started studying the Bible and comparing other religions that I found that when taken in the appropriate context that the Bible is the only book that is complete without contradictions. Yes, there still are things that I don't fully understand because there is much symbolism in the Bible and should not be taken in a wooden literal sense. It is when scripture is taken out of context (much like your post) that things are twisted to suit someones argument. So from the misreading of your post you can see how we human beings are OFTEN presenting things in such a way that it benefits the presenting individual.<P>All that I present is for you to have that little bit of additional information to ponder so that you can evaluate what I have said. THe choice is ultimately up to the recipient as to whether they accept what God says is the truth. I am not saying that I am right. I am saying what He said. If there is any dispute it is not with me. I pray that I am out of the way enough that His light shines as He directs in the Bible.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I will stand by my original post. I have a problem with <B>anybody</B>, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Islamic or any other faith telling other people that theirs is the only way to God, or that theirs is the TRUTH.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Your statement only applies to Christians because only Christians say that ther is one way to God. Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him. Jesus is the only one who has the authority per Him to judge (condemn anyone to hell.) None of the other religions make this ascertion. The other religions actually say that there are many paths to God. If you equate path to the decisions that lead to getting to Jesus before getting to the Father, I would agree. But in the way that you state it, I have to disagree because Jesus said that it ain't so.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <P>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited June 15, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited June 15, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B><BR> I will stand by my original post. I have a problem with anybody, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Islamic or any other faith telling other people that theirs is the only way to God, or that theirs is the TRUTH.<P>Your statement only applies to Christians because only Christians say that ther is one way to God. Jesus said the only way to the Father is through Him. Jesus is the only one who has the authority per Him to judge (condemn anyone to hell.) None of the other religions make this ascertion. The other religions actually say that there are many paths to God. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>With all due respect, this is a false statement and maybe you need to do a little more research on what other religions have to say about Jesus, and yes their are other religions that include Jesus and the Bible.<P>But I never wanted to get into that discussion, I simply stated that I thought it was wrong for anyone, regardless of their faith, to <B>PUSH</B> their beliefs on to others, which is actually what you are doing now. You are trying to convince me that I am wrong(without actually knowing what I believe), and that you are right, that your way is the only way, the true way. I may or may not believe in everything that you believe in or have said, but that is not the point, the point is that neither you, me or anybody else should be forcing our beliefs down other people's throats. I will restate......I have no problem with people professing or stating their own beliefs, but I do have a problem when those beliefs are constantly shoved down someone else's throat. Correct me if I am wrong, but Jesus charged his followers to love their neighbors, well I don't think it is showing much love to people here that may not have the same beliefs that you do, to have those beliefs shoved down their throats at a time that they are experiencing great pain.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Not all who profess to be Christian are not Christian...........True Christians are not telling you what you should believe.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BTW, can you tell me who the TRUE Christians are, considering their are so many denominations, Catholics and Protestants, which include Baptists, Southern Baptists, Methodist, Pentecostals, etc...... which all proclaim to know the TRUTH, yet there are differences of beliefs among this group. Is it the group that believes what you do?<P><p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited June 15, 2000).]

FA,<BR>I am not forcing anything down your throat. If I were to do that I would make statements like you must. I have only said that Jesus said that He is the only way to the Father.<P>As far as true Christians, they exist in all the denominations. Christians are people who have given their rights over to Jesus so that He can live His life through them. And yes there are a lot of professed Christians in every Christian denomination there is not all of them being TRUE Christians. Besides when you are a Christian, you will know because it shows and can only be seen because it is seen through the spirit. The Holy Spirit shows this too you. He is the Comforter who helps us to understand all that is going on.<P>Jesus has to be your Lord which means that He has all rights to your rights as well as your Savior. Belonging to a denomination does not make you a Christian. From the tone of your post, I would say that you are Christian that is grappling with issues that you find confusing: one being centered around what being loving means. Being loving does not always mean coming across in a pleasant manner. I know because there are times when I feel that God is being really cruel to allow me to have to endure the pain of 8 affairs. Yet, I know why I had to go through this: the same reason Hosea went through the same ordeal. I just pray that my result is as pleasant as what I am interpreting from reading that book in the Bible.<P>Just as you said that I am reading into your post what isn't there, so are you doing to me. If you read what I said you will see that I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am to present it to you. It is then on you to go read your Bible to see if what I said is true because the final court of arbitration is what the Bible says, not what I say.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net <p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited June 15, 2000).]

Professorg:<P>You sound like a truly good and devout man. I have absolutely no desire to change your convictions.<P>However, I would like to ask that you re-read FA's original post. I don't have HTML enabled, so I can't do the nice bold quoting, but please bear with me.<P>FA (original post): "I do have a problem with people ... telling them that they are wrong for their own particular beliefs. It really disturbs me when I hear these people saying that they have the TRUTH."<P>Professorg: "I don't have a problem with others believing what they choose to believe. But there is a place that is higher than believing: it is knowing."<P>Prof, I have no doubt that you believe what you say, but you are, in effect, telling me that I am wrong for my own beliefs. That, I believe, is what FA wanted to point out to us. You don't have to agree with me, nor I with you, but I really don't think this is the best place for a religious discussion.<P>I come here for feedback concerning Marriagebuilders Principles. I appreciate it when people who have religious beliefs as a central part of their existence share that belief. I just have a hard time when I get a cyber kick in the rear over religion when I'm here.<P>Please do not misunderstand me: I don't want to try to shake your belief or change the way you live. I only ask that you avoid chiding those who don't agree with you as you are chiding FA. <P>Sorry to step on your thread, FA.<P>Peace to you, prof, and to all my other MB friends. --HBC