I was unable to reply to the other thread, so I will reply here.<P>It is once again like you have been living in my home watching my wife.<P>Based upon what you have written, would you say that a female monkey would find it very difficult if not impossible to be happy or content in a marriage? Wouldn't being married with kids and all the responsibilities that come with having a husband and a family be considered being caged, which monkeys hate?

F A,<P>I am so glad that you asked for clarification! I cringe at the thought of all the similar deductions others might have made based on what short but specific info I provided them!<P>I wish everyone had asked such questions.<P>No, no, no, no, F A!<P>Monkeys make some of the world's best parents!!<P>My Monkey girlfriend is the woman who I would choose to raise my children (if I had any) if something horrible happened to my H and myself! Kids adore her and vice versa. She is one of those rare "fun" adults that kids (babies to teenagers) feel they can talk to and go to. She guides them to learning in fun ways. Life is never dull when you have a Monkey for a parent. The one qualm I have is her penchant for spending on others - that trait goes beserk on her own kids! They want for nothing - and tend to want everything that is trendy! But that's probably true for alot of kids growing up today. But her 2 boys are very polite and friendly and well behaved and they do well in school to boot. <P>As far as her marriage, her wise H gives her all the freedom she needs: She's in at least three different clubs that I know of, is a devout Catholic, a devout soccer mom, and takes care of an elderly man as an assisted-living border in her home - as well as working full time! She knows a gazillion people because of these "extracurricular" activities and seems to be completely satisfied in her life. Now, how her H and she find time to spend together I'll never know but she loves him and is faithful and he supports her emotionally in whatever she chooses to do next. I think because of this she's quite happy with him and straying isn't even a thought in her head. <P>Side note: she was, up to a short while ago <BR>taking some college courses and holding down a second part time job. These Monkeys are exhausting to watch! They think they can do anything! But she NEVER neglected her kids. Anyway, I've made it my job to tell her she's pushing herself too much and to let some things go. I don't think she listens when her H tells her this. So, know who your W's friends are!<P>But what I have specifically on Sagitarrius Monkeys goes like this:<P>Home and Family:<P>This person's interior will be practical and sensible. She will probably own a number of objects d'art picked up in her many travels. But there is not much showiness in her taste. She does not want to impress thru furnishings. A comfortable and well organized, functional home is this person's aim. Her wardrobe will be publicaly bourgeois old-line and privately casual.<P>The Sagittarius/Monkey is not apt to marry young and have a slew of stairstep babies trotting around underfoot by age twenty-five. No. This person has personal advancement in mind before anything else. Then, once she is established in a solid career, it will be time enough for making babies. And one or two will suffice, thank you. Sagittarian Monkeys will be careful parents who provide handsomely for their children's futures. They are concerned with public appearances and will make their children behave. <P>Any more questions?<P>Let me ask you this, F A: Because we are Snakes, are we out of control and go around having extramarital affairs? Is monogamy something we are incapable of? No. We like "romance", so what? We can tailor that trait to fit into our marriages. We'll have to negotiate to have some of our needs met, but no biggie, right?<P> Monkeys have a need for freedom to socialize and organize, so what? It can be happily done within a marriage environment. It <B>is</B> being done by my girlfriend and her H! <P>Do we have "perfect" soulmate friends? That like and do every single thing that we like and do? No. That's why we have different friends. We may begrudge the give and take we have to do with our spouses but in marriage, unlike in friendships, it's what we have to do.<P>The info I give is misleading in that it isn't given in a Harley format - it's almost saying that A's are o.k., you'll have to lump it or leave it if you're married. I hate the way she (Suzanne White) comes across but the insight can be so helpful in knowing what you are in combat with in yourself as well as with your spouse that I really think it's important.<P>Happily ever after - currently under negotiations....is what marriage is all about, I guess. (The Snake in me is saying "Yuck!") <P>Anything else you can think of?<P>L<p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited September 20, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>Anything else you can think of?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of Course!! <P>I would have to agree again on being a wonderful parent, she is certainly that with our kids, I guess what I was asking was that with being married with the kids, there are many sacrifices that come with that and I was wondering if that would be considered caged. Let me give you some examples of what I mean.......being married with kids does not allow a person to be able to just come and go as they please, there are spouses and their plans/feelings to consider, there are childcare plans to consider, that somewhat cages someone in. As I also stated that I am sort of old fashioned in my desire of wanting the "traditional" marriage, you know the woman stay at home while the man goes off to earn the bread type of thing, while that does not exist in my home, my wife is career driven, I still desire to have my wife come directly home and take care of her family(please don't be upside the head), we often have conflicts about this. You mention that you tell your monkey friend that sometimes she has to let things go and that she listens when her husband tells her this, well my wife spreads herself to thin and often leaves nothing for her family, and she never has listened to me when I have brought this up. The way that I have looked at it, even before all of this that you have so thoughtfully typed for me, is that my W's affair was a rebellion against the so called being caged in, the cages of having a husband and children. My W had our first child when she was 19 and a junior in college, the married "life style" is the only life style she has known in her entire adult life, outside of the OM, I am the only man that she has had a relationship with, and she has said in the past that she sometimes wondered what it would have been like if she had never had gotten pregnant, what she has missed out on. What do you think, could an affair be a spreading of the wings, a rebellion against the cages of marriage and family?<P>

F A,<P>Somehow the fact that you had kids escaped me! Anyway, congratulations!<P>Now, back to your concerns.<P>THWACK! You should never plant an idea in my head! Besides, cyper-upside-the-head thwacks don't hurt and I know I can't arrested for them.<P> A traditional marriage by your definition is the one thing I don't think you'll find with your Monkey. Thus my stress on the negotiation and the give and take. You have been blessed/cursed with falling in love with a Monkey. <B>Your</B> vision of your marriage will therefore have to be altered somewhat. Icky but true. But the growth that comes with that isn't a bad thing. It's probably what we need...<P>I thought you downloaded this! Whip out your highlighter and color this part:<P>"When and if [the Snake] does find someone to provide him with unconditional love [or provide him with a traditional marriage, satisfying all your needs and desires], he may sit back, breathe easy and grow placid and lazy...if he isn't pushed or sufficiently challenged. The Snake seduces until he doesn't need to any more. <P>Your Monkey is probably <I>good</I> for you!<BR>Throughout your marriage she has always kept you on your toes, hasn't she?<P>I would also dearly love to be married to someone in a traditional marriage (for a female Snake, that means finding a SugarDaddy! - but I found out I was supposed to fall in love with a Rooster or an Ox too late! Oh, well...<P>Yes, Monkeys are driven but they are organized enough and enjoy their children enough to balance that aspect themselves.<P>The marriage/partnership balance is the one part you have your work cut out for. (Duh!)<P>I wrote (in my backwards way, sorry) that my friend does NOT really listen to her H when he says she has too much on her plate. But, bless his heart, he does not stop her from running herself ragged. He knows her so well, he seems to be doing all the right things in giving her free reign and that keeps them happily married. I doubt he's a Snake, tho.<P>Marriage is everything to us Snakes, it's the "house". To Monkey people like your W, it's merely a "foundation" or springboard for the rest of what's going on in their lives.<P>If you're W was feeling suffocated, perhaps she was being anaconda'd? <P>Am I getting warm here?<P>Careful here. I'm no astrologer or psychologist - just a girl with some very thick books!<P>"Cage" terminology is so typical for a Monkey. If they feel they've missed out on this that or the other because of you, feel tied down by you or your expectations, you will have a bitter Monkey on your hands. I don't want to assume or point fingers anywhere but how much freedom did she have to pursue her dreams? Monkey's need barrels of it. Give a Monkey her banana (freedom) and you won't need a cage. She will love you for it.<P>Trapping, caging or cornering a Monkey is the surest way to make them act out their worst behaviors. I think this means all that extramarital business. I think what you call a "spreading of wings" or "rebellion of the cage of marriage and family" I would call more a drastic measure of survival of her true self. Reactionary, wrong, but predictable if you know the type.<P>For my friend, again, her H's emotional/domestic (?) support and the freedom she needs to do (everything, all at once, all the time) seems to be the "banana" that keeps her heart with him. He allows and encourages her <B>independance</B>. In return she always does things with her home and family in mind, does not look to other men to fulfill what she feels is missing in her life, is fulfilled and happy. <P>Independance is sometimes such a foreign (or even dirty) word for a Snake!<P>"Live-in loving with the Earth Monkey is not for amateurs: it takes more than patience -even a spirit of masochistic self-abnegation. Yet this Monkey is kind and can be reached thru a large, tender guilt window. If reminded of how difficult she is, the Earth Monkey will rally. Underneath her difficult superficial nature, she is devoted to those she loves and can always be counted on to provide and maintain order."<P>Your W is quite capable of loving you to distraction but it will be only on her own terms. At first you will have to be totally selfless and needless. (Practically impossible for the narcissistic Snake--but we are resourceful!) <P>Of course, when your marriage gets there, you should have your needs met, too. You just will have to negotiate like mad. <P>It won't be home and family or the problems therein that will drive her away, it's telling her how to handle it, controlling and confining her to do it as you see fit that will send her careening off.<P>"Give a Monkey your most baffling issue to settle...providing you don't hold her to a deadline or attempt to force her...she'll set straight to work...then come up with the single most ingenous answer ever".<P>Have I gone totally off, F A?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Marriage is everything to us Snakes, it's the "house". To Monkey people like your W, it's merely a "foundation" or springboard for the rest of what's going on in their lives.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is a huge fundamental difference, how can there be a compromise here where everyone feels good about it? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>If you're W was feeling suffocated, perhaps she was being anaconda'd?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't think that she was being anaconda'd, but maybe she felt that she did. I did have major complaints about the amount of time and energy that was devoted to <B>everything</B> else, but would rarely have time or energy for "us". <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>"Cage" terminology is so typical for a Monkey. If they feel they've missed out on this that or the other because of you, feel tied down by you or your expectations, you will have a bitter Monkey on your hands. I don't want to assume or point fingers anywhere but how much freedom did she have to pursue her dreams? Monkey's need barrels of it. Give a Monkey her banana (freedom) and you won't need a cage. She will love you for it.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Some of the things that she says she missed out on are things that because of some of the curves that life through her. For instance, she didn't have a normal childhood, whatever that is, she was physically and sexually abused as a child, then abandoned by her biological family, moved around from one facility or foster home to the next, again being sexually abused. Then when she finally became a part of a family that is still her family today, the mother in that household was overly strict on her and was involved in an affair of her own. Then it's off to college where she meets me right away, a year later she is pregnant and nine months after that she has a child, so having a baby cuts into the hang out with friends time, it cut into having several boyfriends, I was it. Later she missed out on the club scene because of marriage. Call me any name you want to, but I was not going to live with a wife that went out clubbing every weekend, as most if not all of her friends were single. She once wanted to become a nurse, which is a totally different field than what she is in now, well that wasn't possible because by the time she wanted to pursue that, our second child was on its way. Now keep in mind I never knew "fully" about her childhood until after the discovery of her affair, she had told me bits and pieces, leaving out everything about the sexual abuse and abandonment. So there are things in her life that have not been easy or have not gone her way, but that can be said of just about everyone. It seems to me that she waited until she reached the age of thirity to decide that she doesn't have enough "freedom" or that she wants to experience some of the things that she missed out on, which includes other men, or that she wants to "find" herself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Your W is quite capable of loving you to distraction but it will be only on her own terms. At first you will have to be totally selfless and needless. (Practically impossible for the narcissistic Snake--but we are resourceful!)</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is where it seems that there is no hope, because I agree with this assessment, my wife, while she would never admit it, expects me to be selfless and not have needs. She expects that no matter what she does or says, or doesn't do or say, that I should not get upset or say anything negative to her, and initially after discovery, even said this to me, that to me is unrealistic. Even now, she expects her needs to be met, no matter what they are, but will only attempt to meet the needs that I have that she is comfortable with. I see her in much of what you have written and I really don't know if being married to this "type" of person is what I really, really want. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>It won't be home and family or the problems therein that will drive her away, it's telling her how to handle it, controlling and confining her to do it as you see fit that will send her careening off.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I totally agree with this statment, but I admit that I have a great amount of fear in leaving certain things all in her hands, she has been known to really mess things up, not because she wants to, but rather because she doesn't take the time to think things through, she will often initially go with what "feels" right, and what feels right is not always the best or right thing to do. I am trying to compromise more with this, but there are still times, even now, that she comes to conclusions that have been reached with absolutely no logic, and that is scary to a man, that happens to be a Snake, that must be concerned with taking care of his family.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited September 21, 2000).]

F A,<P>I'm stymied. Being friends with a Monkey and being married to a Monkey are totally different dynamics. As a friend I really expect nothing from her but a smile and a fun time on occasion. I'd be way too insecure to be married to such a person. <P>From an astrological point of view, which is how we got started on this, Monkey and Snake aren't a disasterous, no-no kind of union i.e. a Tiger with a Snake. It's just that they might have a few more bumps (o.k., mountains) to overcome that those made in heaven matches--like the Tiger with Dragon(These are profiles I just recently looked into for someone else, by the way).<P> According to your compatibility profile which unfortunately is woefully short on direction, it's do-able. But perhaps we should leave the "how" of it up to the counselors that would have better concrete suggestions that flighty moi. <P>I'm sorry for your W's sad history. Would you believe it almost exactly mirrors my mother's? But no, my Taurus/Tiger mother never reacted in this manner. My idol.<P>Sorry I'm not much help, F A. By revealing this stuff it appears I've made the conflicts in your marriage insurmountable. But if she's there in the house with you today, I know that it can't be impossible.<P>Are you just tired from battle? <P>The "no logic" part made me laugh. That is also a Monkey stereotype. When my girlfriend gets a notion in her head, even tho I know my way would be so much easier, simpler, more economic and faster - I just let go and watch because it's on her own time and I know that she won't be happy unless she at least gets a chance to do it her way. (Maybe I <I>could</I> be married to her!) <P>Are her decisions unsafe? You mentioned "the family" so I immediately thought of your kids. Or are her solutions just "eccentric"? Would letting her try things her way be just too physically or emotionally dangerous for your kids or herself? Is her judgement that bad?<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited September 22, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>By revealing this stuff it appears I've made the conflicts in your marriage insurmountable</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sometimes I feel like that, even before you revealing this stuff, but I am an eternal optimistic. I don't know if that is a characteristic of a Snake or not, but I am a firm believer in preparation, hard work, diligence and faith, and that if you have these things, one will always come out on top.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Are you just tired from battle?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You have no idea how tired I get sometimes, but somehow, somewhere, I find the strength. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Are her decisions unsafe? You mentioned "the family" so I immediately thought of your kids. Or are her solutions just "eccentric"? Would letting her try things her way be just too physically or emotionally dangerous for your kids or herself? Is her judgement that bad?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wouldn't know if any of her decisions would be "unsafe", because things of that nature, such as shelter and safety issues have always been up to me, and that is partly because of what I saw in other decisions that you have termed as eccentric. I have seen over the years this indecisiveness, or the lack of thinking things out, the lack of thinking about what would be the good <B>and</B> bad consequences of a decision. I don't believe that she would do anything to physically harm the kids, nor do I think that she would do anything <B>purposely</B> to emotionally hurt the kids, but I also have to keep in mind that she did have an affair and did things that were unsafe sexually, and maybe some would say that she got "caught up", she is career driven and her career is in the field of health education, primarily STD's with an emphasis on HIV. So does that answer your question about bad judgements?<P>When we were in therapy, our therapist asked me this question....If I was laying on my death bed, would I feel comfortable knowing that my children would be with my wife? That was a tough one to answer, but this was my answer.....I feel that my wife loves her children more than anything or anyone in the world and would never, ever do anything on purpose to hurt them, but the decisions and how she comes to conclusions causes me great fear of what would become of them if I was gone. You know what's funny about that is this, my wife readily admits that she doesn't make great decisions, but wonders how one can "change" how they think, I wonder too.<P>Anyway, thank you for taking the time to write out all of the stuff that you have, it must have been a great chore, and I appreciate it immensely, now gow and rest those now well muscled fingers of yours.