Ok, so I was inspired by Patient Love to do this...<P>Last October was awwwwwful! Early in the month, I finally asked him on one of my many sleepless nights why he was being so distant, didn't he love me any more? He said no.<P>I cried for almost 24 hours straight, couldn't sleep or eat or function. He relented some and was tender when he saw my pain.<P>Then, he was more critical and impatient than he ever had been. On the 10th he went to Brazil for a week, instead of the more usual 4 days, including the weekend. Of course, I later learned the business part was a distant second. He didn't even go to a hotel. Stupid me, I thought it was a good idea when he got a cell phone I could reach him on anywhere.<P>I was up one night during that week in a heated debate with myself whether to take all 250 pills of Motrin. Still don't know if it would really have killed me. I could not do that to my two kids, then 4 and 2. She was just learning how to use the potty. She needed me.<P>He denied any infidelity and for a month I heard he wanted to move out. He didn't love me, I was clingy, I was this and that. He never had loved me. I started plan A, though I didn't know it was that. I also let go, and told him I would not beg him to stay as he had told me he would hate me pleading to stop him. He was welcome to go, we would SURVIVE.<P>On Oct 29, I had set up a session (with his approval) with Jennifer. He decided to speak to her too. I sat here for two hours wondering what they were talking about. Then, he sat me down and told me all. Two affairs over the last 2 years, and he was in-love with the 21 year old girl in Brazil.<P>Fast forward to now. He was here, broke off contact, but was so resistant to making any effort on our marriage. I naively thought that since he chose our marriage, he would take the love in his heart and point it my way. I guess it doesn't work that way.<P>There were many fiascos. We went to a ballet (my idea) that was very romantic and I realized he was only thinking of her. Ouch!!! There were many, many of these.<P>It has all been uphill. Then, two months ago, it clicked for him. It was up to him since I was obviously doing my part to MAKE a great marriage.<P>He is a different person, and I find it rather scary. He is very involved with the kids, ready to leave his travel job (which he told Jennifer then no way), and tells me I am the only love of his life. That he made a very big and stupid mistake.<P>On my part, I have two personalities; thus the ongoing rollercoaster. One is happy with my new life and optimistic, I have every reason to look on my life now with JOY. But the other one wonders if it is real, and is still feeling a lot of pain. I am looking to become a whole person and untangle my own threads. Learn to speak up for myself, learn to be a full partner in POJA.

When you compare years, even with the pain, this year has got to be better. Can you wait for another one to pass?<P>So your H went for basically 10 months without makeing much emotional effort? No wonder you are wondering if it is real. I'm sure it is, but you need some more time under your belt.<P>Now I remember all the posts where you were so committed to Harley's methods of POJA and meeting needs and unless I am really fuzzy (totally possible ) you would post months ago about how you two were back in-love and meeting each others needs and POJAing. <P>So what was different in him before it clicked. If he was meeting your needs and practising POJA, and you felt in-love feelings, how was he managing this?<P>I truly understand the two personality thing. <P>I think maybe I am trying to mesh these seperate personalities now, and that is what is going on with me.

FHL, you are tough, ouch!<P>I do remember posting that. I will have to try and put my finger on what is different exactly.<P>He said he made the switch from life (and marriage in particular)being something that happens to you vs. something you MAKE happen.<P>Funny, I've been in the mode of making it happen all these months, just wondered why I was doing so much alone.<P>It is a difference in kind, not degree. If you remember, I would often follow such upbeat posts with another big downer. My two personalities were hardly speaking to each other then. Don't I sound crazy? LOL<P>He was trying, doing the needs as he had been told by Jenn. The honesty and POJA have been there all along, although our skills have been growing; learning to confide feelings better...<P>It went from a mechanical attempt to meet my needs, to a full commitment on his part. He is here to do whatever it takes and he knows we can have a great marriage.<P>Tell me if I made sense, it helps to try to explain this...<P>PS - it helps to give more concrete examples. I never before felt he valued me as a person. I am at least as smart as he is, but "too emotional" and disorganized.<P>He read the personality typing we did and now values the differences I bring. I no longer feel he thinks I'm inferior to him in any way. This is a huge step.<P><p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited October 11, 2000).]

OK...this makes more sense...and yes, I remember the downbeat posts, too.<P>How did you come upon Jennifer's counseling to begin with?<P>It is also kind of weird is such a high powered go getter in business AND could take the view that life happens to him.<P>Oh, I think the personality typing helped H and I, too. I am also as smart as he is, but too emotional and disorganized <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It is also kind of weird is such a high powered go getter in business AND could take the view that life happens to him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Right?? I told him the same thing too. The old compartmentalization. He has more locked safes in his "vault".<P>We had the books from years back and I noticed a hookup to the site, even though I wasn't at all Cyber then. I made the appointment right there and then!<P>

Actually I can see the same disconnect in my H, too, when I think about it.<P>Maybe the emotional side (you know that little shriveled part of their brain) can think that stuff happens, even when they are proactive in other areas of their life.<P>I couldn't believe that after all we have been through, my H make the idiotic statement a few weeks ago that good relationships should not require work. Now he was saying this in the context that in his mind since we HAVE a good relationship, I was over thinking things.<P>(big sigh)

schizzo,<P>Is part of the problem now, that it is easier to give than receive??<P>You have posted lately that you are having a hard time with this new him. You have doubts. <P>Is it possible that you are worried that if you accept the new him, the change in jobs, etc, that you will feel indebted to him. You cannot leave if you accept his offers without tremendous guilt. Whereas, when you were doing all of the work, you knew that you could leave anytime and it would be his fault. <P>schizzo, prosparity (sp) is hard to take sometimes, isn't it. Personally, I think you should go and enjoy. Your H has undergone an intensive course in sensitivity training and finally understood the lessons. You see it is all your fault. You did the training, now your prize pupil is ready to try out what he has learned. ENJOY!<P>FHL, yeah us guys with the withered right brain do think things we don't pay attention just happen. That is why it seems that it just happens. We know what we feel but just not real certain why. Kind of reminds me of my children when they were new borns. They see the hands waving around in front of them but they really don't know they are the ones moving them around. Kind of cute, but it sure looks dumb.<P>Have a good day ladies.<P>JL

I've been posting on another board too (dearpeggy.com). Someone over there posted this today:<P>Soul Mates by Thomas Moore:<BR>"Raw soul is to be found everywhere. It’s cheap, ubiquitous, and is often considered trite and insignificant. The truth is, the whole world and all of life are nothing but the raw material of soul-making.<BR>Intimacy doesn’t appear ready-made, it must be refined into something truly valuable. We may have an intuition early in a friendship or romance that the possibilities are promising, but still what is given is rough and unshaped. The joy of life consists of taking its ubiquitous raw material and with care and time, making sparkling gems and intricate tapestries out of it."<P>Couldn't have said it better myself. Of course, you did say your h was missing that key "n" in the typing... <P>

We're on at the same time, eh?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Is it possible that you are worried that if you accept the new him, the change in jobs, etc, that you will feel indebted to him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>NO, I don't think so. I'm afraid I'll get all excited like a kid with a new toy and he'll take it away again!

JL...good analogy <P>By the way, he has been aaaaaaalmost clued a few times <P>schizzo...what type is your H? Yup, there is no N anywhere in my H.

He's the CEO type, can't remember the name...<BR>(But it had an N).<P>JL, did you ask this on purpose, cause now you got me thinking. So, if this new him is for REAL, I'm really in...YES, that's the first time I've seen that...<BR>

I read that SoulMates book by Thomas Moore. It was pretty good but it seemed like he never really got to the meat of things. He seemed to look at relationships as having both that inexplicabe attraction we often refer to as chemistry AND the intimacy that is nurtured. One without the other usually leaves people feeling empty.

schizzo,<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>L, did you ask this on purpose, cause now you got me thinking. So, if this new him is for REAL, I'm really in...YES, that's the first time I've seen that... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course, I asked on purpose. Everything I do has a purpose, I just forget what it is sometimes. Now you have me confused. I am not sure if I should try and amplify this or keep my mouth (hands) quiet and take credit for getting you to thinking. <P>Thinking is a good thing; that much I do know. <P>OK! What are you thinking about? I gots to know.<P>JL

Glad to hear that things are better for you this year too.<P>Keep up the good work.<P>God Bless.<P> <BR><P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

JL, I was thinking precisely that - I've been comfortable with not knowing whether our marriage will work. But then I turned what you said around. I'm really not worrying about feeling guilty if I leave down the road.<P>I'm really wondering if the changes are for real - so, if they are I figure I don't want to leave. That's a start.<P>Something came up last night and maybe you can help. I appreciate all the insight you give me.<P>We spoke long distance. He told me about this crazy day he had. Making a sale to a billionaire. They went out on the yacht, pulled up on little boats just like in the James Bond movies. The crew was all dressed in white and totally attentive.<P>Sounds like the sale is going well. So far, so good. Then he tells me how he got into it with his boss about inequities in the commission plan. I felt angry not only at the Co., but at him!<P>I was up awhile trying to figure my reaction. First, his affairs started almost immediately after he started this job in '98. Every time he has told me about underhanded things they have done, I have been upset at them for mistreating him. So there is reason besides to kill the travel...<P>Then again, he has been through about 5 jobs in 5 years, always they didn't treat him right.<P>I guess I felt last night that he doesn't stand up to them, then he comes home and treats us badly and has his affairs. What a wimp!<P>He says his boss knows he doesn't like it, but I think his boss also knows he won't do anything. He has always made decisions on what is best for the Co. rather than us. Funny thing, his personality profile highlighted that trait.<P>Are we back to he can't do anything besides resign? The Co. really wants this million $ sale, what if he were to jeopardize it? After all, he handed it to them on a silver platter, it came up from HIS connections...<P>I was never good at playing the corporate game myself, so I feel really stuck here since I only know what he tells me, but I would respect him more if he would stand up for himself...

Thank-you, Patient Love...

Dear Schizzo, <P>My WS also travels a lot closing deals and the job is very stressful and sometimes unedifying both in the office and out. WS had often believed that only he can fix things, and depended too much on the grace of men and his intellect and charm. He dealt with unfair situations by proving he can close an even bigger deal. I often prayed with him to lessen the stress at work and I really thought he believed in God. <P>It was through this disgusting A that WS realised that God is real and that he was only going to church but did not believe in the true might of Jesus. WS became closer to God and a lot of miracles began to happen, one after another in his career. He now truly commits everything in God's hands and I have gotten church elders and pastors to help coach him in his new walk with Jesus. Because God truly sent a helicopter and a ship in our mess. <P>God bless you<BR>weep

weep, WS has been a believer since before I met him. He is still guilty of adultery (and he was the aggressor in his affairs) and there have been no "miracles" at his job.<P>It's interesting how he has suffered the same type of unfair treatment from his employer that I have suffered from him. They even wanted to hire someone over him,(to replace him) but couldn't find anyone. And he has always made and surpassed all sales quotas.<P>JL, hoping for your comments. I didn't mention that we believe they would do almost anything to keep him if he started to make waves. He is the star salesman.<P>Yeah, he can take the vastly reduced commission, then quit. Or, he could line up another job and use it to go back to them and "force" fair play. I think they would throw money at him rather than losing him. If he goes, they lose a whole continent, since there are very few (or none) qualified replacements out there for him.<P>

schizzo,<P>I don't know if I can give you a good answer I am a little confused.<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sounds like the sale is going well. So far, so good. Then he tells me how he got into it with his boss about inequities in the commission plan. I felt angry not only at the Co., but at him! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The you said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I was never good at playing the corporate game myself, so I feel really stuck here since I only know what he tells me, but I would respect him more if he would stand up for himself... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It sounds like he stood up for himself and he is capable of it. You know schizzo, power and money are very corrupting influences on people. Your H is around both of these factors alot.<P>I am a little further confused, because on one hand you are happy he is a top saleman and can in fact pick and chose. Then it sounds like you really don't want him to pick and chose. But all of this is a little orthogonal to the original start of this post why him working on the marriage is bothering you.<P>So let me ask something about the last topic. Do you think by him changing that you feel threatened? Threatened either by now having guilt associated with leaving, threatened by having a diminished lifestyle if he leaves his job and gets one where he spends more time at home?<P>I never if I am reading something into someones post they didn't mean. I sense you would like the money and so would he (it is how he keeps score in life), but you are not sure that is the answer. Is there anything to this?<P>As for what he should do. Heck I don't know. My inclination is say fine you want to play that way, play without me. But hey I'm a scientist not a in sales of the sort your H is doing. I do know this sales wears people out about as fast any any job I know of. The travel gets so old and the only compensation is the money and a certain amount of freedom.<P>Has your H explored jobs where the travel is less, but the freedom is still there?<P>Sorry, I cannot help you more.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL, thanks for your reply.<P>I just talked to him. I guess it is too complicated to explain properly, but I felt that I NEED to respect him and it is hard when he lets that damn company treat him like a doormat.<P>I said this last night (toned way down). He too felt the pressure that he was again trying to find a way to stuff his feelings while allowing them to wrong him in his compensation. That is just the way the CEO is, use them all and get by...<P>Well, he did it, he told his boss this morning. He left the discussion last night that his only option if he didn't like it was to vote with his feet. Today he told him on a long taxi ride he had decided to vote with his feet. Long silence. Then the guy immediately starts wanting to negotiate, what does he want???<P>Never a dull moment, but I felt so PROUD of him that I cried...<P>