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#889815 10/12/00 08:01 AM
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This is an interesting editorial from today's NEW YORK TIMES on the Clinton marriage:

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/12/opinion/12WAIT.html

You will have to register to view this article, but it's free.

Perhaps some of you who think Bill Clinton invented adultery can enlighten me as to why this woman gets bashed for fighting for her marriage when that's exactly what people are trying to do -- and getting congratulated for -- here.


#889816 10/12/00 09:11 AM
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DAC,

Don't have time to look at the article right now, but I have a quick answer to your question.

For me it is because she is fighting for it for what appear to be shallow reasons - to stay in the power circle. She seems to thrive on having power and the perks of office and is seemingly willing to put up with anything to keep them. Is she fighting for her marriage because she is devoted heart and soul to her husband? It just doesn't appear that way.

I grant you that this is just my opinion, and is based on very little information.


#889817 10/12/00 09:28 AM
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Hillary knew before she even married Bill that he was a womanizer. She has known all along. What really bothers me is that she acts to be the poor, wounded betrayed wife fighting for her marriage when the truth is that she has chosen to live with a known adulterer who is either a sex addict or really a mental mess. I respect anyone who fights for their marriage and I fought for mine. But Hillary has chosen to stay with a man who cheats over and over and over and over and over. That's not fighting for your marriage. She doesn't even have a specific OW since there have been hundreds! And I think the reason she has done it is for power and political gain. But that's just my opinion. Whatever the reasons she stays with him I think she sets a terrible example for her daughter to stay with such a sick man who mentally abuses her, or else she just doesn't care. I feel that at a certain point I had to make the decision to divorce because of my husbands open adultery and part of the reason was to show my daughter that I was not going to take the emotional abuse forever.

#889818 10/12/00 09:40 AM
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A good question, Dazed, and one sure to engender a lot of heated responses. Being a New Yorker, I feel a particular interest in this issue, since she's slugging it out for a Senate seat in November.

I think Hilary has tended to present herself as something of a feminist. As the column points out, she proudly proclaimed that she was no "Tammy Wynette" in 1992, indicating that if Bill was a real cad, she'd leave him in a heartbeat. In fact, Bill WAS a real cad, and continued to be, in the most incredibly risky, public, awful way imaginable. Imagine the pain that BSs here feel when they're lied to. Imagine being lied to, then going on national freaking TV and repeating the lies and made to look like a fool. Then getting asked about it STILL years later. How much should one person take before they start to look like just a doormat or in it for something besides their marriages.

By continuing to take the crap dished out by Bill, folks tend to think that Hilary's revealed herself to be either a liar about being a feminist, or just a leech who wants to use her husband's fame/notoriety to get herself a Senate seat. Neither is terribly flattering.


#889819 10/12/00 09:49 AM
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2sad:

Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous for you to be identifying her motivations? Do you know her? Or do you just know what you see on TV and what talking heads say about her? Do you just know a video persona that may or may not represent her as a human being?

Suppose your H were very comfortable financially, and you were fighting for him. Would it be fair for people to say that you are only fighting for him for the money?

My point is this: We don't know the dynamics of any given marriage. In the case of the President and his wife, we don't know them at all as people; all we know is what we see on TV. It's as unfair to question her motives as it is to question the motives of any of us.

I just find it kind of hypocritical that it's the "family values" crowd that is screaming the loudest, when they have no idea what may be going on.

BTW, there are plenty of women Hilary's age who have run for office on their own. It's not like she needed a man to have a political career.

As for you, discarded, well, have you read Jo's (Resilient) posts here? Her H is a serial adulterer. Would you judge her the same way? Or is it that it's OK to stay with a known womanizer as long as she subscribes to your version of religion and/or agrees with you politically?

Taxman: I don't think that believing in your marital commitment and being a feminist are mutually exclusive. I'm living proof. Again, I don't know the Clintons, but I would suspect that as long as he was discreet about it, she tacitly decided to look the other way. When he stopped being discreet, it was another story.

All I'm doing, folks, is to ask you to look inside yourselves for your motives. You don't have to vote for the woman, you don't have to like her.

But don't Christians always say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?


#889820 10/13/00 12:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dazed and Confused:
Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous for you to be identifying her motivations? Do you know her?

That's why I qualified my response by saying it was only my opinion and based on limited information.

quote:
I just find it kind of hypocritical that it's the "family values" crowd that is screaming the loudest, when they have no idea what may be going on.

To many of us it does not seem that "Family" is what she truly values. Time will tell. Once Bill is out of office and has less clout, perks, and power to refelct on her, let's see what she does.

quote:

BTW, there are plenty of women Hilary's age who have run for office on their own. It's not like she needed a man to have a political career.

You really think she would attempt to run for the senate seat in a state she has never lived in, having never held political office without the springboard of being the First Lady (i.e. the President's wife)? No way.

quote:

But don't Christians always say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?


None of us were casting stones - YOU solicited opinions! Why do you have your undies in a bunch over our replies?

#889821 10/13/00 12:19 AM
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I'll play...

I wrote to Hillary, after her discovery and before my infidelity, to give my support to her for fighting for her marriage. I wrote from the perspective of someone who fought for my marriage (and won my H back) when he cheated years ago.

I did hear back from her, by the way. Form letter. Oh well...

I like Hillary. I don't live in NY, but if I did I would consider voting for her. I would rather have seen her in the Oval Office than her H, truth be told.

So, she's bashed for fighting for her marriage. Who cares? It's her life, and if she wants to fight for the man she loves (even if he is just a head on a stick) then so be it!

I'm for personal choice and responsibility. Some fight tooth and nail on these boards, and some give up and move on. Personal choice... I support all. I can't say I always did... but I do now. Adultery has a way of humbling you... it sure did me.

[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 12, 2000).]


#889822 10/13/00 12:28 AM
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D and D,

I do not think anyone is judging her from this site. I get the impression you are a Hillary Fan. Personally I am not. I found her since day one of the Clinton administration to really push the boundries of the first Wife. In that vain I am also against Clinton. He too has pushed the power of the Oval office beyond reason.

I do have this to say. I really think that she has left Bill so to speak. She purchased a house in NY and is running for Senate. They do not spend that much time together anymore. Who's to say that they are not seperated. They already lead seperate lives. I also think she was with Bill for how far she could go. I have said since day one of Clintons going into office "She is in it for the power and he is in it for the chicks". Was true then and true now.

In all it really does not matter what they do or do not do. I think she gets the pressure because she made the statement that unlike the "Stand by your Man type" she was the type of woman who would leave if things got to much to handle. Well in honesty she stayed. I think that is why she is having this stated about her.

Lets also not forget that she went on national TV and stated about the Monica Bill thing that it was a Republican plot against her Husband. Talk about egg all over the face. Do you honestly think that she did not know? She might have not had hard evidence but she must have had some kind of sixth sense going on.

Again this is all speculation who knows what goes on in their house. Do I really care? No not really. I do not live in NY and he is almost out of office. I do know this much living over seas durring his first term I was embarrased by all of it. People would make fun of him all the time as a big fat joke. It does not look well for the US to have such a self serving person in office. But as a friend said from another countries embassy once people get to that level of power they have sold their souls a hundered times over and have no bearing of what is right or wrong.

Let them have their power because when it gets down to it...Clinton will be remember for the sex escapades and not what he has done in office.


#889823 10/12/00 01:21 PM
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Paha and others:

I don't have any particular emotions one way or the other about Mrs. Clinton; other than being fascinated about how she's a lightning rod for so many people, and wondering why.

However, my point is not specifically about the nature of the Clinton marriage, but about how many "family values" folks seem to think that at the same time as others should be prevented from divorcing, she should go ahead and divorce her husband.

Seems kinda inconsistent to me....


#889824 10/12/00 03:07 PM
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Hi Dazed,

I agree with you about wondering why people who speak out for family values then turn and try and trip Hillary Clinton on this issue.

Again I think it is more because Hillary Clinton stated that she was not one of those "stand by your man" types.

Also I find it odd that Newt who said he was for family values leaves his second wife in the hospital for wife number three. Now Wife number two was his affair on wife number one. Wife number three was affair on wife number two. No one says anything at all about Newt. Everyone acts as if this is normal. Sure he stepped down as Speaker but still some outrage should have occured.

I guess it all comes down to do as I say not as I do. I have no explanation why people do what they do. I for one do not find any fault in Hillary if she stays with Bill or leaves. But I guess my thoughts are is that she is working towards at least a seperation. You see them still in public together but not that much. Also I really think she is in the process of re-building her life. Since he is still in office and if I was her I probably would not divorce till after things calm down and he was out of office. Bad enough having to see Monica still in the News from time to time but then to have to go through a public divorce.


#889825 10/12/00 03:27 PM
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Paha:

It seems to me that they would WELCOME a change of heart.

After all, haven't most of us said that if we were ever cheated on, we'd throw the bum out?

And here we are.

Regarding the "Stand by your man" quote, what would people have rather she said at the time? And what does that mean, anyway? I suppose that she decided at some point to ovelook a lot, but when it was THIS OBVIOUS, she no longer could.

Remember Lee Hart? Remember how she stood around like a wounded puppy...and it blew any remaining chance Gary Hart had at the Presidency? Well, maybe Hilary didn't want to wear her humiliation in public. I can't blame her for that.

My reasons for bringing up the topic were not to speculate on the state of the Clinton's marriage, or Hilary's motivations or ambitions, but merely to point out my observation that there seems to be a double standard among certain circles about exactly what "family values" means.


#889826 10/12/00 05:06 PM
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I don't care what others think regarding family values and so on, I can only say what I think. I don't think most women marry known womanizers expecting them to all the sudden turn faithful. And unlike Resiliants situation, Clinton has had hundreds of women and Hillary almost always knew if not who exactly they were, she knew what he was doing. I think Hillary could have made it on her own and maybe she should have tried. But that's not what she chose to do. And she is now running for the senate because she is Bill Clinton's wife and not because of any record of her own. I wouldn't want to be her. Maybe she feels good about what she is saying to her daugher, that you remain married no matter how many hundreds of women your husband has sex with. Even if you believe she didn't know before and all the facts point to that she did, she sure knows now. And I do think she is setting a bad example for her daughter. I don't believe you stay with a man now matter what or no matter how many women he commits adultery with. I think they have a sick relationship, her and him. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Oh and thanks for the "as for you" comment. Like I'm something to just be dismissed. Well I'm not. This is my opinion and I'm entitled to it. Others may not agree with it and I don't expect them to. But they should respect it. I respect theirs. And by the way, you asked for my opinion remember?

#889827 10/12/00 05:33 PM
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Dazed and Confused,

Anytime someone asks for an opinion regarding a high profile individual, you are going to get responses based on perceptions of that person. We all know who Hillary is. We all have our own perception of what we think about her based on what we have read or seen or have heard her say. We primarily judge an individual against our own value system. Hence, our opinions are a bit tainted when it comes to someone we all know.

You seem to be referring to a double standard that Christians have or some family value group. All Christians I know have a strong belief in marriage. I am a Christian. I personally don't hold the same views as Hillary, but I'm all for her and Bill having a great marriage. However, on the surface I question Hillary's motives for "fighting" for her marriage. I suppose time will tell. I have a hunch if she isn't elected to the senate, that she will end of divorcing Bill. A person can only put up with so much lying and cheating, and I'm sure she's had her fill.

out of the ashes


#889828 10/12/00 07:19 PM
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This sure is an interesting thread to appear on this board!

For what it's worth, here's my take:

Despite the fact that I disagree with her politics, I find it downright amazing that Hillary has stayed by her husband for so long. Obviously there is some other factor at work here.

Many have stated that she only stays with him because of the power and prestige associated with the office. We all know her husband has been adulterous long before he was President. I suspect he had affairs when he held no office at all. Everyone seems to think she'll dump him on or around January 21st, 2001. Will that happen?

We've all seen past Presidents become fabulously wealthy after leaving office. Bill will likely command at least a million per speech, probably get a hellofa book deal, and offers to head some major corporations for big bucks.

It is clearly not an issue of being associated with power. What is it then?

I've often read that Bill Clinton has incredible personal charisma. He's quite a charmer on television, but from what I've heard, it's almost impossible not to like the guy once you've met him in person. Perhaps this personal charisma that lured Gennifer Flowers, Monica Lewinsky and who knows how many others has an especially strong hold over Hillary. Is he just that good?

Maybe her own personal values won't allow her to leave him. Whatever else you can say about her, she is a woman of great conviction.

I think, though, that we need look no further than some of the folks on this board to find an answer.

How many women here take their wayward husbands back after the third or fourth, or fifth affair?

How many accept the fact that their WS had an OC with the OW?

How many have lived through years or even decades of infidelity before finally getting into "recovery?"

I've seen quite a lot since I've been reading and posting here. I've talked to people who've been cheated on like Hillary never imagined, and still managed to save their marriages. I've talked to people who've been cheated on only once, and that was enough to end it.

Apparently, 'ol Slick Willie fulfills Hillary's Emotional Needs in a way that no one else ever has, or ever could. She still loves the big oaf, and love 'em or hate 'em, the Clintons have one of the most successful marriages in Washington.


#889829 10/12/00 07:44 PM
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I am not a Hilary fan. However, I am a New Yorker... the only thing that bothers me about Hilary's run for office here is that she has never before been a resident of the state of NY, so - why us? As for who I would vote for - it will probably be Hilary. IMNSHO, ALL politicians are liars and most are adulterers - many have scandals hidden in their backgrounds that would curl your hair, and put the "average" person in prison. When people start screaming about any one of them, I think it is pretty amusing!

However, I have to also comment about the sentiment that has been repeated here (and, once again it is MNSHO) - that of her not leaving Bill because she once said that she wouldn't "stand by" him. Nobody really knows WHAT they will do in any given situation until it happens to them. And you still don't know what you would do if it happened again unless/until it does.

As far as the idea that no one marries a womanizer believing he will change - I think that is silly. Plenty of us married men that had habits we didn't like because we thought they would change. It happens all the time and is part of the "unrealistic expectations" about marriage that help add to the divorce rate. And in other cultures, women REGULARLY turn a blind eye on where the males in their lives dip their sticks... I am not saying it is right or wrong or good or bad, just that it is a broad and not so accurate generalization to make. Women marry men who are alcoholics and expect that they will quit drinking... happens all the time.

------------------
terri
Courage

Whatever course you decide upon,
there is always someone to tell you
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There are always difficulties arising
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critics are right.

To map out a course of action
and follow it to an end
requires courage.

Ralph Waldo Emerson


#889830 10/12/00 09:50 PM
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Perhaps the fact that Hillary Clinton is such a duplicitous and hypocritical woman, is WHY so many people cannot abide her. It is called live by the sword...die by the sword.

You come across as a VERY anger-filled person. You're the one who solicited opinions, and then you use the Hillary Clinton issue, as an excuse to spew your indignation at opposing views from your own. It seems that you only "used" it as a reason to vent and nothing more.

And, for one espousing Christian values, I too found your "as to you" comment directed at Discarded, to be both incredibly unkind and undeserved.

As to Hillary Clinton...WHO CARES?????????

She has a right to live her life anyway she sees fit. But, IMHO if she REALLY ever had the "right stuff" she would NOT have had to hang on for dear life, to her husband's coattails! And, she hasn't let go yet, has she?



#889831 10/12/00 10:21 PM
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D & C, you addressed this thread.."To all of you Hillary Bashers"...then you proceed to insult those who state their feelings regarding Ms. Clinton?? Hillary is OBVIOUSLY in it for her own agenda, she spends most time away from her husband, ensconced in her career. She has very little time with him (from what I have seen and read as of late) and she knows darn well how many times she has been cheated upon by him, so do you call this a marriage of love, she who has stood by him in times of heartache..or do you think she may have ulterior motives??

There comes a point in time where a *marriage* becomes a *farce*...this point has come and gone in the Clinton's marriage. Hillary is no martyr, I believe she is a very smart woman yet she has her priorities all out of whack (oh, before you slam me, this is only MO). Marriage is a covenant where you respect and love one another, not continually debase the other by numerous affairs. So we should say..."Look what a wonderful woman she is by sticking by her H..."?? I think not, because, again IMO, she is working this to her advantage. I do NOT have any respect for the woman, other than the fact that she is very good in front of the camera, like her H...but people base way too much on this, when morality and being truthful are WAY more important in my book!


#889832 10/13/00 02:59 AM
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D&C

My distain for the Clintons has nothing to do with the affairs that Billy boy has had.

It has everything to with the fact that the both of them are consumate liars, Bill being much worse than Hillary.

As for why she stays with him, I agree with 2sad4words. It has nothing to do with love or keeping the family together, she still has a use for him plain and simple. As soon as he outlives his usefulness, she will kick him to the curb.

Niether one of them has any morals or honor, they exemplify all that is wrong with our political system. I say time for a change, I'l be glad to see them go.

P.S. Yes, all politicians are liars but I think we can do better than the Clintons

Ok I'm done ranting

Jason

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"Thinking is easy, action is difficult; to act in accordance with one's thoughts is the most difficult thing in the world."
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe


#889833 10/13/00 06:13 AM
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cjack: Nice post. Regarding the "Clinton charisma": I used to know someone who met Clinton back before he became the front-runner for the Democratic nomination in 1992. This is a no-nonsense woman who is not easily snowed, but she said that he was the most charming, charismatic man she'd ever met. He has that gift of being in a room and making everyone he talks to feel as if he/she is the most special, the only person in the room that matters.

That quality is a GIFT. You can't cultivate it, you can't develop it. You either have it or you don't. I have a sister who has it, and it's sometimes very hard to watch her, even in her late 40's, reduce a 25-year-old waiter to a pool of melted butter just by a glance. Sometimes I think that many of the people who hate Clinton SO violently are jealous that he has that quality and that (at least on a personal level) he seems to get what he wants so easily.

PS -- I hadn't intended to insult anyone. And I'm not angry...or testy. How many times to I have to say this: My purpose in posting this thread was not to grind a political axe, but to try to understand why there is a double standard about what constitutes "family values"....that the same people who feel divorce is ruining the country believe that this woman should divorce this man because he has been unfaithful.

The fact that some of the replies here have been so angry indicates that there is more going on in folks' attitudes towards this couple than just a question of the nature of their marriage....

But since it seems to offend so many people, I will not post further on this topic.


#889834 10/13/00 09:41 PM
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Hey D&C:

People do have some strong views on ole Bill and Hillary, don't they?

Myself, I think it's one thing to have to deal privately with your H having numerous affair and having to deal with it in front of the world. What did we expect her to do? Leave him...THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES? In front of the whole world...like a rat leaving a sinking ship. I've always though Hillary was the stronger of the two...and I admire her for sticking with him though the public exposure.

Their private hell is a different thing. I expect that sometime in the future these two may part...not because Hillary is affronted by the womannizing but because now it is proven public knowledge. And she is too strong a woman to live under that shadow...she will ease herself out of his life and go on to build a new life for herself...after they are out of the limelight.

I don't like the term coat-tailer because there are a lot of women who are where they are merely because of their husband status.
Do we feel less of them? No. Hillary is a person on her own...not a non-entity like most president's wives...lost in the shadow of their husbands. If she was a simpering background wife sticking by her husband we wouldn't think a thing about it. But because she has showed strength we expect her to react in pre-conceived ways. This is a matter of the heart not of politics and she has reacted with her heart not merely her head.

As for examples to our children...I think Bill is the only one who has set a bad example...Hillary has fulfilled her commitment over and over again...sometimes commitment is just not enough.


Faye


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