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#890844 10/20/00 01:35 PM
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I hope my good friends won't mind me getting on the soap box for a change. I have all but ignored what's going on in the outside world given the turmoil in my own life, but I wanted to share this:<P>I am voting strictly libertarian in the coming election - Harry Brown - all but ignored by the media.<P>This was the first attempt in history to form a republic, that would exist by the people and for the people. The government was established for the protection of life, liberty and property period.<P>It is not the government's job to dictate other aspects of our life or to try to "make" us moral. We are all individually responsible for that.<P>The two major political parties are much more alike than they are different. They both start with the current condition of government and end with a bigger and bigger base for themselves.<P>Is it wrong to use drugs? Is it wrong to get drunk? Is it wrong to view pornography?<P>Yes, yes and yes.<P>But what has the government truly accomplished in trying to control these things? Prohibition was a total failure, but they didn't learn. Alcoholism went way up and the mafia developed around this illegal substance. Now, the same has happened with the war on drugs. Vice is the most corrupt branch of the police force.<P>Child abuse is very wrong. But how much power do we want to give the government to invade our homes? Who is the beaureacrat that makes these decisions?<P>And I don't look forward to Clinton being "outta here" because he doesn't hold to "my" values. He is the most anti-libertarian president. He and Gore take credit for a good economy. Hah! The good has come from the new information age DESPITE those clowns. Just think how much better the economy would be if you and I decided how to invest or spend our money instead of sending so much of it to these guys. <P>A good question I've been asked whenever I say this: Isn't that a wasted vote?<P>I took that stand in Clinton's first running. I did not want to waste the opportunity to vote against him. It wasn't a "for" vote for Bush SR. either.<P>I have changed my stand on that. The gap is so immense between what I believe and either of the top two candidates that I cannot in good conscience vote for either of them.<P>No, I don't think Harry will win. The media will not even take the party seriously even though they are a very large grassroots political force.<P>But my vote for him will still count, much more than if I vote something I don't believe in. I'm thinking long-term. Government is so sensitive to public opinion. If millions more vote for a 3rd party, they will notice even if he doesn't win!<P>Ultimately it is not Clinton that is to blame for our "out of control" government. It's me, my friends, my neighbors. After all, it is our responsibility to elect the people of our choice.<P>Over the long-term, people are getting fed up with both parties. If they also believed they have a responsibility to change it, there is much work to be done.<P>

#890845 10/20/00 02:32 PM
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If voting third-party is a wasted vote, it's only because too many people believe that. If everyone voted their conscience instead of worrying that their vote is wasted on a third-party, we might not get so many bozos in office.<P>Someone I work with said that the difference between democrats and republicans is that the democrats want to control our financial lives and the republicans want to control our private lives. That sounds pretty accurate. Personally, if I have to choose between the two, I'd rather have my financial life controlled than my private one.<P>I don't really believe in the total hands off approach, either. I'm still undecided who to vote for (but it definitely will NOT be Bush Jr).<P>

#890846 10/20/00 02:40 PM
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schizzo Offline OP
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I've heard that too, but if you compare them to the Libertarians, I would say the Dems want 95% control and Reps 90% control over my finances and maybe the flipside for our personal lives. But the difference is sooo minor.<P>I don't think I'm advocating a TOTAL hands-off approach. It would take about 40 years anyway for the gov jobs that should NOT BE to slowly fade without anyone losing their jobs (they just would not be replaced, much less the new ones created every day!).<BR>

#890847 10/21/00 08:59 AM
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Just stopped over to this forum for the first time in a long time. COuldn't help but say hello to you, schizzo.<P>It's been awhile. Hope that everything is going well. <P>Hugs and prayers to you as always!!<P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

#890848 10/23/00 11:16 AM
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Jamie-Lee<P>How are you doing, girl?<P>Please give an update...

#890849 10/24/00 12:32 AM
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Not too many replies on this. I think we all are much more interested in our own lives right now, and rightly so.<P>Anyway, this is from a transcript on Sunday:<P>MR. RUSSERT: Mr. Browne, would it make a difference to a Libertarian if either George Bush or Al<BR> Gore was president?<BR> <BR> MR. BROWNE: No. We—you know, I know, everybody watching this show knows that four years<BR> from today, whichever one of them is elected, government will be bigger, more expensive, more intrusive<BR> and more oppressive. If you vote Republican or Democrat, you are giving up. You’re saying, “I’m<BR> never going to be free. America will never be a free country again. I will never get smaller government,<BR> so I’m just going to vote for the one I think will take me to hell at the slowest possible rate.” But if you<BR> vote Libertarian, you may not win this year, but since you’re not going to win anyway, what difference<BR> does it make? If you vote Libertarian, you may not win this year, but you are laying the groundwork<BR> that we might win in two years, four years, six years or eight years, and that’s something to look forward<BR> to. I believe we can elect a Libertarian president and a Libertarian Congress in this decade. I’m not<BR> guaranteeing it, but I believe it’s possible. And that’s what you should be voting for, not a question of: <BR> Whom do I hate the most, Al Gore or George Bush?<BR>

#890850 10/23/00 02:28 PM
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I see you also watched the third party debate!<P>It's too bad the major networks don't give these guys some airtime. I bet if a few million people got a chance to listen to these "radical" views, quite a lot would say "wait a minute, THESE are the people we should be voting for!"<P>Too bad most people are so apathetic, they'll just accept more of the status quo.<BR>

#890851 10/23/00 02:37 PM
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Hey schizzo:<P>My only issue is that any guy that's running for the Libertarian party has already violated a central theme of being a Libertarian---he's joined a party...<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>I hear you, loud and clear...

#890852 10/23/00 03:18 PM
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cjack,<P>Actually they preempted it in my area for a golf tournament. Someone was nice enough to send me the link of the transcript so I could read it.<P>K, I hear you! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

#890853 11/06/00 10:50 AM
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schizzo Offline OP
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Up for who are you voting for?

#890854 11/06/00 11:22 AM
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I think most people aren't replying because we know we're not going to convert anyone. I for one am tired of the whole mess. <P>Have you read any of the foreign press about this election? Other countries are appalled at what's about to happen here.

#890855 11/06/00 11:57 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dazed and Confused:<BR><B>I think most people aren't replying because we know we're not going to convert anyone. I for one am tired of the whole mess. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>I think there are actually very few people who would vote for a third party candidate. Some of them genuinely support either Bush or Gore. Many of them have simply bought into either camp's propaganda and are just going to vote like the tv ads tell them.<BR>Quite a few of them don't like the choices the major parties have presented, but are going to hold their nose and vote for the lesser of two evils.<P>In my view (and I know I'm not alone), the job of the federal government is to provide for the national defense, build and maintain infrastructure, and uphold the law of the land. Nothing less, but nothing more. <P>The Republicans think its the government's job to provide for defense contractors, give tax breaks to big businesses that need infrastructure, and make new laws based upon their own personal morality.<P>The Democrats have taken the phrase "all men are created equal" and twisted it into "everyone should remain equal," and have set about attempting to re-distribute the wealth of our country to those who were created equal, but haven't bothered to put effort into remaining equal!<P>I'm of the opinion that if "none of the above" were offered on the ballot, it'd win in a landslide.<BR>

#890856 11/06/00 12:43 PM
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D&C,<P>Actually, I spend a lot of time on foreign soil, but I've entirely missed the foreign news. I'm sure it's not good...<P>cjack, I get so tired of hearing it's a wasted vote. I used to say that myself until I now see both major parties are so far from what I believe that I don't really care which one wins, I'll vote my conscience. Obviously, if enough people did that, a third party WOULD WIN.<P>I agree with you except that the "law of the land" itself has become so intrusive. I still go back to they are there to protect LIFE, LIBERTY AND PROPERTY, not infringe on freedoms folks gave their lives for in previous generations.

#890857 11/07/00 01:33 AM
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Just wanted to say that husband and I are also voting libertarian.

#890858 11/07/00 01:35 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by schizzo:<BR><B>I agree with you except that the "law of the land" itself has become so intrusive. I still go back to they are there to protect LIFE, LIBERTY AND PROPERTY, not infringe on freedoms folks gave their lives for in previous generations.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'll agree and add something more: The "law of the land" keeps getting bigger and more intrusive because we have full-time legislators in Washington. Whether we need new regulations or not, they and their staffs are working day and night to formulate new laws to mess up our lives. Most if not all of these bills are introduced on behalf of PAC's, special interest groups, or other campaign contributors. Our representatives no longer represent US, they represent teh interests of whomever pays them the most.<P>I wish these people would look on their office as a service, not a career opportunity.<BR>

#890859 11/07/00 01:53 AM
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Well put cjack! The influence of PAC, special interest groups is tremendous I don't think most people realize it. The only time politicans give a rat's a@@ about us folks is at election time. Campaign finance reform would help in reducing PAC and special interest group's influence. Here in California we voted in campaign finance reform in '96. Of course politicians have bottled it up in the courts for the last 4 years. Sadly I don't see much hope for any meaningful reform at the federal level for a very looooooong time.

#890860 11/07/00 08:38 AM
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Do you want smaller government?<BR>Do you want an end to the welfare state, to government destroying our health-care system, to government at all levels taking 47% of the national income in taxes, to government intrusions into your life and your business?<P>Do you want smaller government?<P>Stop Supporting Big Government<BR>If you do, the first step toward getting it is obvious:<P>You must stop supporting those who are making government bigger.<BR>You can't go east by moving west. It's a physical impossibility.<P>You can't make government smaller by rewarding those who make government bigger. It's a political impossibility.<P>Only when you begin asking for what you really want do you have any chance of getting it.<P>Al Gore wants to make government bigger. He's proposed a long list of new government programs.<P>George W. Bush wants to make government bigger. He's proposed an equally long list of new government programs to show that he's as compassionate as Mr. Gore -- as though having government spend your money somehow demonstrates compassion.<P>Pat Buchanan says he wants a return to constitutional government. But he's made no specific proposals to reduce government, while proposing to have government fix what he thinks is wrong with America. For one thing, he wants to tell you what kind of car you can drive.<P>And Ralph Nader wants to tell you whether you can drive a car at all. But that's the least of his many plans to make government much bigger.<P>What Smaller Government Means<BR>I am the only presidential candidate offering specific proposals to make government smaller -- much smaller:<P>I want to get the federal government completely out of every area where it's made such a mess -- health care, education, law enforcement, welfare, foreign aid, corporate welfare, highway boondoggles, farm subsidies. Not only are these programs unconstitutional, they do tremendous damage to our lives. <P>I want to make the federal government so small you won't pay any income tax. (The tariffs and excise taxes already being collected are enough to finance the constitutional functions of government.)<P><BR>I want to free you immediately and completely from the Social Security system. I want to sell off government assets to finance private retirement accounts for anyone now dependent on Social Security -- so you and I and every other American can immediately stop paying the 15% Social Security tax.<P><BR>I want to end the nightmare of Prohibition by stopping the insane War on Drugs. At least 90% of the invasions of your civil liberties over the last 30 years have been justified by the Drug War. You may have no interest in drugs, but the government still snoops in your bank account, monitors your email, and claims the power to search and seize your property without due process.<P><BR>I want to restore completely your unconditional right to keep and bear any weapon necessary to defend yourself and your family. We can't end gun violence with new laws or by enforcing the laws on the books now. The gun laws are the principal cause of gun violence, so we must repeal those laws.<P>I don't want to appoint Supreme Court judges who are "strict constructionists" or who divine "original intent." I want to appoint judges who can read the plain language of the Constitution -- who understand that when the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law," it means Congress shall make no law. I want judges who will strike down government programs that are not authorized by the Constitution.<BR>In short, I don't want to slow the growth of government. I don't even want to stop the growth of government. I want to reduce government dramatically -- to the limits imposed by the Constitution.<P>What Freedom Means<BR>I want you to be free to live your life as you want to live it -- not as Al Gore or George Bush thinks you should.<P>You're the one who gets up every morning and goes to work for 8, 10, or 12 hours a day. How dare politicians like George Bush or Al Gore presume to decide how much of what you earn you should be allowed to keep?<P>I want you to be able to keep every dollar you earn -- to spend it, save it, give it away as you think best -- not just the crumbs the politicians leave for you.<P>I want you to be able to use your own money to put your children in a school of your choice -- private, religious, or home school -- without having to beg the state for a voucher or plead with the Board of Education for improvement.<P>I want you to be able to use your own money to start your own business. Or to support your church or favorite charity in a way you've never been able to do before.<P>I want you to be free. I want to get government out of your life.<P>Isn't that what you want?<P>How to Get to Smaller Government<BR>If so, why would you vote for someone who's moving in the opposite direction -- someone who's made it clear he intends to make government bigger, not smaller?<P>I'm the only candidate who's running solely for the purpose of making government smaller. I'm the only candidate who doesn't presume to know what charities your money should go to, or how much of your income belongs to the politicians.<P>How You Can Win<BR>Can I win?<P>Probably not. But if you vote for anyone else, you won't win either. Your candidate might win, but you won't get what you want. Government will continue to get bigger, more expensive, more intrusive, and more oppressive -- and you will have given your approval to this.<P>No matter what your reason for voting for Mr. Bush or Mr. Gore -- to keep Al Gore out of the White House or to ward off the Religious Right -- your vote will be interpreted as an endorsement of every big-government proposal your candidate has made.<P>Even though we Libertarians may not win this year, every vote I get will be an endorsement, a statement, a declaration on behalf of smaller government. No one can misinterpret a vote for me as a vote for more government.<P>And if I get even one million votes, it could change politics in America forever. It could cause the press to pay more attention to smaller-government proposals, it could encourage other voters to abandon the big-government parties, and it could attract millions of non-voters who have given up on any hope of getting smaller government.<P>Please don't let the old parties destroy your future by scaring you into voting against someone this year.<P>Raise your sights. Vote in a way that could lead to a free America with a constitutional government before the end of this decade.<P>For once, vote for yourself instead of a politician. Vote for freedom.<P>(From the Libertarian website for Harry Browne.)<P>

#890861 11/12/00 09:01 PM
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I HAD TO GO GREEN!!! <P>Simply because, like you, I didn't think that voting for a third party was a vote wasted but a message sent. As I sit here, the radio is talking about the hand-recount that is under way in Florida. <P>I felt that if there was a big enough draw to R Nader, George would have to look over his shoulder for a green army coming.<P>I realize enough voters backed down from going with a third party, but with the most interesting election since Nixon's re-election, despite the outcome, this could be a turning point for our form of democracy.<P>rrunrr<BR>

#890862 11/13/00 07:16 AM
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hi schizzo!<BR>any morning news on the counts? My oh my.....this is a sad, but great state of affairs we have right now! I say great because it certainly accentuates some of the inabilities of the gov't. Maybe more will take a hard look? Hmmmmm. <BR>

#890863 11/17/00 06:00 PM
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QUICK!! DECLARE HIM PRESIDENT BEFORE ALL THE VOTES GET COUNTED!!<BR> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <BR>


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