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Hi all,<P>I haven't been posting much lately, but I'm still here everyday. There doesn't seem to be very much good news on the forum these days.<P>I am not ready to say that we are in real recovery yet, maybe pre-recovery is the right description. We are definitely spinning our wheels lately with no real progress being made. I've been living with this devastation for over 13 months now, and I still don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Sometimes I think I might be getting close, but it always seem to be just a mirage.<P>Anyway, on to my question for those who ARE further along in the process. How important is it for the betrayed spouse to be honest about the events of the affair? I'm not talking about minute details, only the major details (i.e. how long it lasted; emotional involvement; how far the relationship went physically; etc.).<P>Firestorm has lied to me so many times about the affair that I really have no idea what the truth is, but I definitely know that he is not telling it. The certainty that I am STILL being lied to undermines any feeling of trust, security, and respect that I try to muster up. I honestly believe that his continued lies are the major obstacle we face in rebuilding our marriage. He has admitted that he has not been completely honest about the scope of the affair, but claims that he has been totally honest about everything else. Is it just me, or is that the most unbelieveable thing in the world?<P>I have read about betrayed spouses who never know anything other than an affair occurred, nor ask anything about the affair, not even the identity of the OP. That would honestly drive me insane. Honesty is the most important issue to me personally, and I can truly say that the fact that firestorm lied so horribly (and apparently continues to do so) has been far more damaging that the affair itself.<P>I know that often betraying spouses claim (and betrayed spouses believe) the affair was not physical when it really was. I guess what I want to know is if a marriage can truly recover when the betrayed spouse really doesn't know the truth about what he/she is trying to recover from. Has anyone on this site recovered only to find out the affair was really more involved that was first confessed? If so, did it unravel the recovery and destroy the marriage? I guess that is my greatest fear at this point.<P>I would greatly appreciate any insight and shared experiences on this subject. Part of my prayers each day is that God will reveal the whole truth to me so that I can deal with it, put it behind me, and move forward to get over this horrible experience. I know that God is working hard on firestorm, as he is nearly constantly on the edge of tears and full of regret. I'm certain it is only a matter of time before the truth comes out. I hope and pray that I will be ready for it.<P>Thank you all for your thoughts and support.<P>Peppermint

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I read your post and felt I should respond even though I have only been in recovery 4 months. If you have been dealing with this for 13 months I would assume you have read all the books (or at least some)... every thing I have read says that total honesty is needed in order for recovery to take place. If he continues to lie to you..that shows his lack of respect for you and his lack of commitment to the marriage. I believe my husband has told me everything about his affair (well he told me a lot then I asked questions to get the rest of the info)..but I cannot imagine trying to recover if I didn't know the who, how, why, where, when, etc. How can you recover from something you don't know about? I will pray that he will finally start to respect your marriage and will begin to tell the truth. Good luck.

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In my opinion, what ruined any chances of recovery for me and my STBX is the lack of honesty. He kept saying I knew everything, and I kept discovering that there was more. How could I trust him? He said how could he trust me when I got mad at the revelation of more? He wanted to feel safe. I wanted to feel safe, but there was no honesty between us, so where could we go? <P>He believes that the lies were best kept hidden so that my feelings wouldn't be hurt and so that we wouldn't have to deal with what happened. I needed to know he would be honest with me no matter what the truth was and hold me and love me through the horror. Is was too great a thing to ask and so here we are- divorcing.<P>So much could have been avoided if he had been honest about his feelings when he was searching for whatever he was searching for when he was with other women. So much could have been avoided if he was honest about it afterward. honesty can be painful, but I think it is necessary.

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Peppermint,<P>I understand where you're coming from. I'm not even close to a real recovery so I really can not answer your question as stated. For me to truly recover and take that next big step I have to be standing on solid ground. Unfortunately I'm in the same boat as you, so many lies and come clean confessions that are also lies that I just am clueless as to the real truth and what type of footing I have to move on. It also sounds like your husband is similar to my wife in so far as he has started to believe some of the lies. <P>I'll be watching this thread to see if some folks can answer this for us. <BR>

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Thanks to all of you.<P>Hi Hopeful,<P>Dday was Sept. 1999 when my husband confessed that a long time friendship (that I knew about) had crossed the line one day while they were talking. He claimed that the "friend" made the move and he responded. She told me the same thing, along with the fact that he stopped it before it went past kissing and touching by telling her that he couldn't do it because he "loves his wife". They promised that it was a mistake that would never be repeated. They continued to talk on the phone occasionally after dday (without my knowledge), then the affair progressed to email in April of this year and finally to secret meetings in July that ended on August 16 when her husband recorded a phone conversation between them on August 16.<P>Yes, we have read the books, counseled with Steve Harley and another counselor. etc. But he constantly contradicts himself in his accounts of the affair (how and where they met, whether or not they had sex, etc.). I really get the feeling that he is just constantly trying to find a set of lies that I will believe.<P>Thank you for your response.<P>Popeye,<P>Your husband sounds very much like mine. I do believe that this has been the only affair firestorm has been involved in. But the way he is dealing with it sounds very much like what you have faced. I'm beginning to believe that our situation will have the same outcome as yours. Thank you for sharing that with me.<P>Hi Infidelity,<P>Cute name, by the way. Your comment about your footing caught my attention. The other morning I told my husband that his lies were like marbles, and that I was now living my life trying to walk around in a world that was covered with them. It makes me constantly off balance, slipping and sliding and continually worried about falling flat. Like you, I hope someone can share some good advice on how to deal with this. Thanks for taking the time to share.<P>Peppermint

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Peppermint,<P>Honesty and openness--an emotional need. <P>It's a pretty high ranking one for me. It sounds like it's the same for you and I'm sorry it's not getting met for you.<P>Is fs a "pathological" liar (anything is possible!) or is it just that he's afraid of your reaction or is it a protection of the ow?<P>The reason behind the lying may give you a clue as to how to proceed. If you can get that out in the open, and deal with it as a team and not so much as opposing forces, you may eventually make it safe for him to meet your need. But your counselor sounded so great, I think she must at least have tapped on this, no? <P>Your situation is not fair. And I'm sure you're aware that once you get the truth, you may wish you never had. They don't say ignorance is bliss for nothing. Are you prepared for the worst?<P>But I for one, asked for and got every detail and truth. It has been painful but I'm still glad I have it. I know what I/we have to work thru and on because of that knowledge. <P>NOT to turn the tables around on you and make you responsible for not getting the truth--he SHOULD be--but since he has such a problem with it, do you make it safe/easier for him to be honest? Do you show him consistently show your appreciation for that honesty and somehow make it rewarding and positive. (This only applies if he's been honest about anything, I guess!)<P>Wow, I had no idea that this was what you were going thru. I sort of feel lucky now--that I have an H who tells me everything altho he hasn't been the eloquent master of apology that your H has been. Now I understand why you always sound so hesitant in your posts about your recovery. It's a humungous barrier. What else can you build your foundation on if not trust? <P>Wanna have an emotional need swap with me for a day, Peppermint?! You could have all the honesty I've been getting and I'd get the world's best remorseful apology. And then we could really zoom thru recovery.<P>I would love to post a letter thread to fs about this if you think it would help. <P>I'm off to work another 12 now. Will check back on you tomorrow, P.<P>Love and prayers,<P>L

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Hey Leilana,<P>Thanks for the kind response. You're right, firestorm IS a great apologizer now and that's a huge improvement for him. He long ago accepted full responsibility for the affair and started trying to make amends.<P>He says that the reason he won't tell the truth is shame, but I know a major part of it is fear of my reaction. I DO react badly to finding out that he has lied to me. And Leilana, the lies are the really painful kind. The "I swear there was no more to it than that" kind of lies that are never true. The "it was just kissing" kind of lies that turn into much, much more. The "I never did that" kind that turn into "Well, except for that one time" and then "Well, maybe two times", etc, etc.<P>The affair was horrible, but the fact that he has taken nearly three months to tell the truth (so far) has devastated me. I just wanted to know it all, to process it all, to deal with it all at one time. Instead it has been like recovering from one stab would, only to be stabbed again as you are leaving the hospital.<P>Firestorm is the most selfish person I have ever known, even his counselor told him he was the most selfish person SHE had ever dealt with. Just this morning as we were discussing the importance of honesty, he told me that I didn't understand how hard it had been for him. He went on to tell me how much HE was suffering because of his dishonesty and how I just haven't been understanding enough. HELLO, IF WE ARE BOTH SUFFERING BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT TELLING THE TRUTH, TELL THE TRUTH!!!! HOW HARD IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND!!!<P>I really appreciate your offer to write to firestorm. He admires you greatly and I know that he would like it. He hasn't been visiting this site lately, he always stays away when he is doing something wrong. Sometimes that is how I know he is doing something wrong!<P>Thanks again,<P>Peppermint<p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited November 04, 2000).]

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Hi peppermint, <P>I am one year post discovery, don't know if were in recovery, or in limbo 'till my wife figures out what to do.<BR>To me, honesty is everything, even if it hurts my feelings. In fact, I would welcome honesty that hurts me. At least that would show that my wife trust me with the truth. If she tells me the<BR>truth, knowing that I will be hurt, knowing she will have to be uncomfortable hurting me, THEN I will now she is truly committed to making this marriage work.<BR>You need to hear as much as you want to hear, your husband must give you <BR>that! <BR> God bless you,<P>------------------<BR><P>Lynton

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<BR>1649 days since D day number1............... <BR>I have done everything, tried everything, waited patiently, and waited some more.......<BR>5 weeks ago I insisted H move out, because there has been no repair and healing, just some more evidence of H starting to pursue a new friendship with another woman at work....<BR>That was a very specifically stated no-no for our marriage relationship because of the history......................................<BR>THERE HAS BEEN A LACK OF TOTAL HONESTY! PARTIAL HONEST, BITS AND PIECES, REFUSING TO TALK ABOUT THE AFFAIRS UNTIL THE BS, HAS PEACE ABOUT IT, IS THE RECIPE FOR FAILURE.<BR> Yesterday I informed my H that I am filing<BR>for divorce.<BR>Has anyone restored the marriage without knowing as much as they desired?<BR>

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Hi Peppermint,<BR>I don't know how useful this will be, but I rarely wish for any more info about Guard's affair, so maybe I'm at the end of the tunnel.<P>First of all, he denied the affair any time it was active, and, depending on what you term affair, it lasted 18 mo+ to years.<P>When he disclosed the affair the first time 1/99, he was very honest. Gave me a lot of detail that still haunts me. Plus, I have an excellent memory and pieced many things together myself.<P>Now flash forward through 4 more separations, who knows how many affair setbacks to this spring. Guard wanted to reconcile, I optimally wanted my marriage & family together but could find very little within myself to try again.<P>We went to our counselor. I was having bad trigger days/anniversaries 2 years deep. Every day was a bad day, or had been a bad day in 98, or 99. And there were things I still wanted to know. Throughout this Guard has had conflicting stories, comprised of lies of protection of himself, OW or me, lies of shame, truth, and simply not being able to discern whether he told me the truth about a former lie and a general inability to remember the difference for every occasion. Plus, he's a guy for whom specific times, dates, places aren't terribly meaningful. Those would be unintentional lies, or even combining a couple contacts because his memory isn't divided into different days.<P>Whew. Ok, if you got through that [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com], my counselor asked me if more information about the affair helped me, or promoted our reconciliation. And honestly, the answer is, more information made me angry, sad, betrayed, depressed, unloved, dinged my self-esteem...etc. <P>And Guard put it pretty well, "You know I cheated, lied and was an [bad kind of jerk]. What more do you need to know? I can't change that, but I am so sorry and I want you and our marriage."<P>I have found the most healing since I dropped the baggage. I forgave him. And it helped me. <P>However, if Guard had not been truly ready this time for our marriage, it wouldn't have worked. I get uneasy sometimes, my trust is a small, featherless bird--fragile. But I believe that Guard is a full partner. His actions and words line up. I know that I do not know the totality of his affair, especially the last full-blown time and continued email contact. But either Guard will be faithful or he will not. There aren't any more chances after this one. I've stated that, and I mean it.<P>I have as many abandonment issues as affair issues and our life doesn't go smoothly. But he doesn't walk out of the house during our arguments anymore and the arguments are much more infrequesnt. As he told me just yesterday, "I love you. If I didn't I wouldn't be here with you in this house every day. And someday you will believe me." We had had a fight Thursday night, the first in months, that was nearly as bad as any. But, yesterday, we picked ourselves up and began a new day. Again.<P>Guard has promised to be honest, but he has made that promise before and broken it. It's tricky to believe a new promise, forgive the old bad behavior, politely ask about behavior that seems familiar and raises the hair on your neck AND see your marriage on a new path.<P>Keep on with counseling. I went with or without Guard. And he's gone with and without me. The issues that a betrayed spouse faces are much different than a WS, there are points when talking about both sets of issues together inflicts a lot of pain.<P>The other thing my counselor said was "Guard,you will never know the depth of Lor's pain. Lor, you will never know the depth of Guard's pain. And trying to make the other feel your pain, when that is impossible, hurts you both." I think that is a wise statement, a difficult statement. There are times I want Guard to know exactly what devastation he did to me...but he never will know--but he DOES know it was terrible...and making him feel bad at this point, doesn't advance our marriage. It makes him feel like a failure and that we are doomed. Or I feel that way. We want to get away from doomed...to wonderful. <P>It appears to be a long winding road. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

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Thanks to everyone who read and/or responded,<P>This morning as I said my prayers, I felt that God was answering some of my questions about why our marriage was not improving. I know that my husband had not been totally honest with me about the affair, he had admitted that much. But God also revealed MY responsibility in that dishonesty (screaming, crying, blaming, withholding forgiveness). My husband and I decided to go to church this morning, no services were being held on Saturday but the church is also open for anyone to attend anytime they choose.<P>We read the Bible, prayed together, and my husband made a full confession to me before God and asked for forgiveness. I know it was the most difficult thing he has ever done. I hope it will be a real turning point for us.<P>So, while things are not so good right now, at least I have some hope for the future. I am remembering you all in my thoughts and prayers.<P>And to you Lor, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. You will never know how many times you have kept me hanging on just a little longer. I am so grateful that you are still here!<P>Peppermint<P><BR> <BR>

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lor (Lor):<BR><B>I have found the most healing since I dropped the baggage. I forgave him. And it helped me. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this is the most important part of the whole process. Why have all that information if you are just going to lug it around with you? The truth needs to be processed and used as a tool to get to a better future, but when its outlived its usefulness, it needs to be put down. <P>HOWEVER, I think revealing the truth a necessary part of the process and recovery can't happen without it. Telling the truth shows the BS that the WS is trustworthy. It does the same for the BS because the WS is trusting that the BS will still love them knowing that. So, I think it is necessary for BOTH people.

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Peppermint,<P>I can't help you. But I would like to ask you how you dealt with hearing the tape of your husband...my husband was taped talking to his girlfriend by her live in boyfriend. He called and played them to me. to this day hearing them talk on our anniversary haunts me...I think that is one of the worst things that happened to actually hear them together waying 'I love you' to each other.

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Peppermint, I don't know how long it's been since FS cut off all contact with ow, but his healing from his self inflicted character assassination didn't really get started til then.<P>My h had to heal from his own hurt at what he'd done to us and the damage he'd done TO HIS FEELINGS ABOUT HIMSELF before he could begin to face the truth himself let alone share it with me. He just couldn't deal with the shame he felt. Maybe FS is sincere in his apologies and just needs time to heal a bit more before he can move on the the next level of facing the truth about what he did. I do think that sometimes feelings of shame really are crippling to the truly remorseful WS. <P>Also, if mlc was part of this for FS, remember that just because the affair has ended does not mean that his mid life crisis ( the fogginess of which often lasts 5 years) has completely passed. I really think both shame and mlc fog helped make my h unable to deal with my recovery needs as they related to truth about his affair.

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Hi wesse,<P>YOU HAVE GOT IT ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! Thank you so much for your response. In the words you wrote was a very clear description and explanation of the whole reason for the delay in honesty.<P>How long did it take your husband to be able to face what he had done? Were there times that you felt he hated himself?<P>Dday (this time) was August 16th, and firestorm has only had contact with her one time since then. She called him at work on September 9th, crying, threatening, raging, yelling, etc. I think that's truly when he began to see her for what she is, and began to try to be honest with me about what happened. The truth has come out bit-by-painful-bit, each one plunging me back down into the deepest despair.<P>I never even wanted to know details of the affair, just the basic truth of it. At least I have that now, though what will become of our marriage I don't know yet. Firestorm is truly remorseful and broken by this, I believe this is the only affair he has had and that he will not have another. But the horrible pain and disappointment is still very difficult to reconcile, and the lack of trust and security is devastating. I'm sure you know about those feelings as well as I do.<P>Thank you so much for your post. It has truly been so helpful to me.<P>Peppermint<BR>

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Hi peppermint<P>wesse has given you a good response. No, let me say an excellent response.<P>Why do you need to know all the details. Doesn't it hurt? Do you think it will improve your marriage by knowing them? What will be solved by knowing them? Will you feel less hurt?<P>I am sure that your H knows he has hurt you immensely. It was probably a very dark moment in his life, too. Try to put it in the past. It's not important how he met her, how long it lasted. What is important is that you rebuild your marriage. If it hurts you to hear his lies about the affair, stop asking him questions about it, because you knwo he is going to withold the truth anyway.<P>You can't change the past, nor can he. But, you can make a better future for yourself and marriage.<P>We are also in recovery. My H just returned home after an 18 month separtion and we have been married 25 years. I am not going to let some whore, with no respect for family or marriage destroy our relationship. She almost succeeded. We have another chance.

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Reba,<P>Thanks for the advice. My situation is a bit different. I know the OW and have known her for about 16 years. Her husband and I grew up together in a very small town and she lives nearby. I have not been asking for details, just the true extent of the relationship and how they got away with it so I will know what to take precautions against.<P>We have been married for nearly 24 years and never separated because of this. It was NOT a love affair. It was a case of a middle-aged man having his ego stroked by a bleached-blonde slut nearly 20 years younger. She has had other affairs, so my opinion of her now is not much worse than it was before she slept with MY husband.<P>She did not betray me. My husband did. And now I need him to be honest with me about the past and make a sincere committment to always be honest in the future. I still don't understand how anyone can accept partial honesty and move on. I could accept it if my husband said that there were some things that were too painful for him to share with me, or things that he was too ashamed of to admit to me. But he should not have denied the physical part of the affair and exposed me to the dangers of STD's, as well as denying me the chance to make a decision about what is best for me based on the truth.<P>He has been relatively open and honest in the past two days, and while that honesty has been very painful, I can now begin to deal with the truth and move forward in some positive direction. I'm not sure at this point what will happen, but at least now I can begin to be in control of the situation instead of having it control me.<P>Thanks again for your input.<P>Peppermint

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The way I feel is, well some of us(BS) want to know the truth and maybe sometimes too much. And some BS don't want to know much about the past. The thing is, either way WS should be able to tell the truth when they are asked. Doesn't matter we ask them about A or not.<P>I'm not in recovery(I'm in recovery alone), and my H LIED alot in the past and truth always came out from somewhere else. Everytime I found the truth I got hurt and so mad. In the past he said he would be honest with me when he move out. Now he moved out for 6 months and still lies. I said that to him and he said he couldn't be honest to himself(BTW he says this alot). we aren't in recovery and lies still hurt, so I can imagine if you are in recovery being honest is extremely important in my opinion. WS lies when they are having an affair, and for most of the BS lies hurt more than affair.<P>Peppermint, I hope your H will be able to be honest with you, because without that your marriage can't be saved...<P>Take care,<P>Meg

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Hi again<P>I have told my H that I demand and expect 100% honesty from him. From the very day we reconciled. I just don't see the importance of knowing all the details. Of course you nor I would want this to happen again. I know that he had an affair and admitted to it. I also know the possible reason he got involved with ow. I made changes to myself and hopefully he will never find the need to do this again. The affair was a symptom of our marriage problems that were already there. We are going to work on those problems, that is what is important to me.<P>I am going to make myself very happy and make him want to spend time with me. Therefore I am expecting that it won't happen again. Knowing all details about the A is NOT going to improve my marriage. What's done is done and he nor I can ever change the past. I will never forget it ever. But, I don't want to dwell on it and keep rehashing it. He had an affair and wants to commit to our marriage. That's all I need to know.

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Peppermint,<P>I think honesty is crucial to a relationship and not just as one of the needs. But you're right, you do have to make it "safe" for your partner.<P>The MAJOR difference in our relationship between today and a year ago is that we can tell each other anything and I mean ANYTHING. I think it has to start with being honest about something they previously lied about, but it also requires a growing level of openness in the present.<P>I was surprised to find that I'm not that comfortable sharing my feelings, I always thought it was him.

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