Hi MB friends,<P>I haven't posted very much lately, but I still check in here everyday. It seems like there is more bad news than good on the forum lately and I know the holiday season is especially hard for those of us who are dealing with the effects of affairs.<P>Sometimes I hesitate to post because there are so many members who are separated from their spouses or who have completely unremorseful mates. I know that I am fortunate to have a husband who truly regrets his affair, is still here, and is trying so hard to make amends. Unfortunately apologies and regrets don't heal the pain or restore trust and security. I wish they did.<P>We are in counseling and moving along, though very slowly. I believe that the fact that my number one EN is openness and honesty has made this even more difficult to recover from, along with the fact that I place such a great personal value on marriage and faithfulness.<P>Firestorm and I had our regular session with Steve Harley yesterday, and as Steve was trying to get me to describe my feelings (very hard to verbalize) to him, I realized that the only thing I can really compare it to is the sudden death of my father three years ago. As I really thought about it, I recalled the stages of grief that I went through. First I was just completely numb, then I refused to believe it was true, then I was intensely sad and maybe even angry. It took a long time for me to reach a level of acceptance that I would never see him again in this lifetime. I have missed my Dad since he died, but never as much as I have while dealing with this affair.<P>Over the past several hours I have come to realize that all of those same emotions are in play inside of me now. I am grieving for the loss of the marriage that I had, and am having a difficult time accepting that the marriage I believed I had is gone for good and there is no chance of getting it back or ever really having it. I need to decide on the kind of marriage that we will have in place of the one that I wanted, the one that is no longer an option for me. I have to accept that I will need to "settle" for less than I want. That's hard for me, and it is blocking our progress.<P>I hope that recognizing these emotions will help me to move forward, and as always I am counting on the invaluable advice and support that I can always find here. Does anyone have any similar experiences or suggestions to help me get my focus off of what I have lost and onto what I still have? I will appreciate anything that you can share that will jumpstart me and get me moving again!<P>Thanks to all,<P>Peppermint

<B>Peppermint</B><P>I wanted to tell you that you have so put into words, nearly exactly, the same way I am feeling. I thank you for that.<P>I don't have advise at the moment, I am going to ponder what I have read, and then come back here.<P>In the meantime though, you will be in my thoughts and prayers.<P>You and I share the same Wedding anniversary date although not the same year. I'm wondering if you might be going through some of the same emotional highs and lows that I am. With this date fast approaching I am finding myself having desires and expectations, then a mass of fear comes over me, because I feel a huge dissappointment coming my way.<P>I am trying to focus on the good and possitives I have now. I hope you can do the same.<P>I'll be checking back.<P>Much Love,<P><BR>------------------<BR><B>God bless you and all of us. We are all going to make it, all of us! With God on our side we can't lose! What God has joined together let no man put asunder. <P>Samantha</B><p>[This message has been edited by A blessed Samantha (edited November 25, 2000).]

Hi,<P>Just want to tell you that I feel the same too. I have been dealing with alot of issues from the loss of both my parents in counseling through this. Maybe being back in the greif process brings back those memories from previous greiving.<P>Are you going for individual counseling along with the Harleys? Maybe it would help to work on some of your personal things too. I think the Harleys are great for marital counseling, but their plan is more couples directed. I think some of my personal issues got in the way of my being able to stay on the Harleys plan.<BR>Lora

Hello Samantha,<P>I hadn't really considered that our anniversary was affecting my feelings, but I am sure that it is. We will be leaving on Thursday, Nov. 30th for an anniversary getaway and returning on Dec. 3rd. We hope that getting away for a few days will allow us to put the affair aside for a bit. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers.<P>Lora,<P>I have been to my husband's counselor, but she has referred both of us for individual counseling. My husband has been a couple of times, I haven't yet but will be scheduling an appointment as soon as possible. We are so very fortunate that our insurance will cover our counseling with a copayment of less than $10. I agree that the Harley's are great marriage "coaches", but they really deal with today and the future and don't really address the issues that brought us here. I think that individual counselling will do that, my husband is already having good results. Thanks for your response.<P>Peppermint

{{{{{Peppermint}}}}}}}<BR>I'm so glad you posted. I was worried about you in my lurking.<BR>You know that the end of the grieving process is acceptance. I think I have come to that point through my H's last screw up. <BR>After the initial shock of continued contact I suddenly accepted everything. <BR>And the world did not end.<P>The grief process cannot be rushed no matter how much we want it to. The fact that you recognise it will help immensely. <BR>Do you have "The Forgiveness Workbook"?<BR>It really is a workbook aimed at going through the stages of forgiveness and grief ...for YOU. I highly recommend it.<BR>Take care!

Peppermint<P>Our situations are very similar and I seem to be experiencing the same feelings as you. Lately, even though things are much improved, I can't seem to get the A off my mind. My H has been absolutely wonderful lately, very loving, and I am affectionate back but as soon as he walks out the door or we have an extended period of quiet time BAM it all popps in my head again. I wish you and FS all the best and if you figure out how to process and deal with all this please let me know. <P>wasstubborn - Is the Forgiveness Workbook a Harley book?

Hi There Peppermint,<P>Those feelings you're having are not so far back in my past! I remember them clearly. It took me a long time to realize that it actually was a grief process that I was going through and I waffled back and forth between the stages on any given day...for quite awhile.<P>I hear you talking about feeling like you have to get to a point where you can accept that the marriage you had and what you believed it to be is gone and you can never get it back.I always held onto the thoughts that, I never in a million years would I ever have believed my H would cheat on me and now I had "tarnished" goods. No, I didn't have tarnished goods, I simply had the same "human" H I always had,only the pedestal I had put him on had been knocked over and broken.I had to ask myself if it was unfair for H to fall off that pedestal or was it unfair for me to put him up there in the first place? Only I could choose to change my unrealistic view of him into something more fair(I thought)for a mere human being. I myself hung onto those kinds of thoughts for such a long time until finally someone around here got me to realize DID I REALLY WANT that "old" marriage back, a marriage that I had a skewed view of,one that had very unrealistic expectations and ideas that held it so near and dear to my heart or was what I really wanted a whole new marriage, one that is based in more realistic expectations and hopes and dreams. I finally told myself that if I really wanted to hang onto that old marriage and all the expectations I held for it being perfect and wonderful forever, that I was setting myself up for continued disappointment, for that kind of a marriage doesn't exist, no matter what is portrayed "out there".It was a bittersweet recognition,but one that rang loudly of the truth. I decided that I had to change my views and expectations of what I thought a marriage is supposed to be and adjust that to more real and human based thinking. That's just what helped me. I hope it can help you too!<P>AND.......Peppermint! I need to share one more thing with you! You don't have to settle for less. I felt for so long that I was getting the short end of the "marriage" stick,as here I was with one that had been scarred by my H's poor choices.But, as I let go of what I had "thought" my marriage to be for so many years (from my wedding day LOL!!!)and developed my new ideas and H kept working and building and being a new and better man, I found I was getting something so much better that I no longer felt I was "settling" for anything. <P>I think that individual counseling is a wonderful thing, especially when you don't have the burden of worrying about how expensive it can get. I think it is a huge step to getting to that place both you and FS want to be at so badly. Just know Peppermint, that although you find yourself feeling so much loss right now, that it does fade and as long as both you and FS work hard at rebuilding, you will get something much more beautiful than you could ever have imagined from all of this! God's blessings to you both!

Peppermint,<BR>You said <<First I was just completely numb, then I refused to believe it was true, then I was intensely sad and maybe even angry. >><P>Anger is very definitely a part of the grief process...and I would guess when the grief is from infidelity that is even more true.<P>I think that doing Plan A & not processing my anger until it had built--and been buried to explosive compaction--was among the things that knocked me off track last winter.<P>I'm not saying to direct the anger at FS, but do recognize it and process it. If you haven't read TORN ASUNDER by Dave Carder, this might be a good time. He seems to address anger in a way that was more understandable to me than SAA does. Or talk to Steve H about anger...just don't bury it.<P><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."<BR>(Proverbs 15:1).

I am so glad to see some familiar names here! I was beginning to think I was the "oldest" person on the forum!<P>Wasstubborn,<P>At last! I have been wondering about you. How are things going with you and your husband? Now that you have reached acceptance of the situation, does it help to ease your mind? I don't think acceptance is giving up hope, it is just refocusing hope on something more attainable. Do you agree? I hope to hear from you soon.<P>justsher,<P>I wish I had some answers for us both, but there is definitely some great advice posted on this thread. Maybe we can both benefit from it. I plan to get the forgiveness workbook that wasstubborn mentioned. I have seen it before, it was not written by the Harleys, but comes highly recommended by many people here that I greatly admire. Thanks for your response. It is a comfort to know that there are people who empathize with the way I am feeling.<P>Mthrrhbard,<P>As always, great advice. I actually did think my husband was incapable of being unfaithful and did believe him to be better than other husbands. I do know that he is only human and therefore subject to mistakes and failures. I just can't help wishing he had not made this horrible one! Thanks so much for your words of wisdom. I will read them over and over and try to learn from your experience. I appreciate you so much!<P>Lor,<P>Hi. I hope things are going well with you and Guard. I am definitely not burying my anger, but I am trying to deal with it in a more constructive manner than screaming and throwing things (though that is a great, if temporary, release). I have talked to Steve about it, and we are beginning our "plan". I can't say that I really see a lot of results right now, but it does seem to have stopped the love bank drain. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.<P>You are all wonderful cyber friends, and in this time of Thanksgiving I am particularly thankful for you all.<P>Peppermint

I went through the same exact feelings. My H said "it's not like someone died". <P>Yes, it was exactly that. My H who had never cheated on me during our marriage, who vowed to foresake all others died suddenly. And I grieved terribly for him.<P>One day it hit me that I didn't really like that man very much. Pretty much the only good quality that that H had was he hadn't cheated on me. Although I always felt it was just around the bend.<P>Now I have a better H. He's in the same body as the old one, but that's the only thing that is the same. My new H realizes that he contributed to a lot of the problems in our marriage. And he realizes the enormity of his mistake. <P>In all honesty, I never imagined growing old and being with my old H forever. It was that bad. I can see myself staying with my new H forever, and I truely LOVE this man, I wasn't too sure about the old one.

Did you really think you were the oldet on here?! Nah, we just dont post as much anymore!<BR>One of the early recovery books I read suggested one grieve for the loss of the old marriage. I had a hard time accepting that notion also.....maybe because I was truly still in denial? <BR>Eventually you do get to acceptance (as wassi states so eloquently), and part of that level means you can still have your old marriage but are able to merge it into the new. <BR>((((hugs)))) cl

Hi Pep,<P>Please, please - right now - or as soon as you possibly physically can - give your Fire a hug and a kiss. You still love him, don't you?<P>Please try to understand - he is human, therefore makes mistakes and bad judgements. He was selfish, heartless and cruel. BUT - have you or have you not made a COMMITTMENT to do your part to make things work again? Please don't betray Fire by not holding up your end of the bargain. That won't make anything right.<P>This might sound silly, but try as best as you can to do fun stuff together. Enjoy each other. Buy a new nightie or a board game and abottle of wine and LET GO. Your H is back and here for you 110%, so enjoy him and his body and his mind. <P>There is a time and place for your anger to come out. If you make that time and place the dominant thing in your life then you become someone who I know, and all of us here know you DON'T want to be. <P>Fire has cursed you, but also blessed you with his way of love. He is not a complete package yet. He has learned the lesson that has been most painful to you. I do not think he will make that horrible mistake again. Take it one day at a time - tonight, let go. Make him pamper YOU.<P>Love him Pepper. If you didn't love him, you would not have cared much about his infidelity. Now is the time to care for the goodness that today brings.<P>Khyra <p>[This message has been edited by Khyra (edited November 26, 2000).]

Peppermint<BR>I will have to update you properly. I keep promising myself to post an update here but I don't know where to start exactly.<P>I am fine. <BR>The acceptance that I needed to come to all this time includes a lot of things. Yes it has eased my mind. Not because I am more trusting of my H. Because I know now that I can handle whatever he does. This is the most important step that I have taken in the grief process.<P>I have accepted that he is the man that did those things. For a very long time I think I was in denial more than anger. I knew what he had done yet deep down inside I think that I felt denial. As if my excuses for him, my fighting against all the memories would somehow make them change somehow.<P>This last episode made the whole thing very clear. I accept it. It hurts much less. I know that he betrayed me for years. I know that he chose to do it...even with a warped mind there are no excuses. And I KNOW that the world did not end. The new contact proved to me that I can handle anything. <P>I have no control over what he did or does. I accept that as well. I no longer want him to do specific things. That is something I cannot control. Accepting that has helped me concentrate on healing me. I can only do what I can do. Waiting for him to do the right thing was holding me back.<P>Did that make any sense? It's early and we are off to hockey so I'm a bit dopey. I wanted to get back to you before we left.<P>Justsher<BR>The Forgiveness Workbook is not the Harleys. I can't remember the authors right now but NSR has the book on his list. <p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited November 26, 2000).]

peppermint,<P>I read your post and was very touched. You have receive some very very good advice. I would like to take up the same theme and offer you my view of things.<P>You said: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I am grieving for the loss of the marriage that I had, and am <B>having a difficult time accepting that the marriage I believed I had is gone for good and there is no chance of getting it back or ever really having it.</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I made bold the part I want to address.<P>I realize what you are saying, but has others have pointed out, you are greiving a past marriage. As mthrrhbard said, you need to realize your H is human.<P>Now here is where being a bit older and your reference to your Dad struck me. <P>You see no matter what Firestorm did the old marriage would never be again. You both are constantly changing. It apparently had many fine qualities, but it surely wasn't perfect. We have evidence of that don't we?<P>You mentioned your father. I lost my father many years ago. He was my Hero. He was the man I wanted to become. But as I got older I learned he wasn't perfect. He had fears, he missed opportunities, and he made mistakes in his life. <P>I learned all of this from him. He focused on his failings and deeply regretted them. He and I became best of friends in the later years and we talked alot. He had an ongoing medical condition that he knew would kill him. And we talked of the "what if's", the "shoulda woulda, coulda's". He was not bitter. He found it intertaining to realize his mistakes. Not in a Ho Ho way, but to realize how "stupid" he had been. Looking back he couldn't believe he had not seen the situations clearly. In short he recalled much more than his successes.<P>Interestingly, to his friends he was a hero. Indeed, he add earned many of this countries highest honors for heroism, and had saved many mens lives in multiple situations. Yet he knew he wasn't perfect, I knew he wasn't perfect, and certainly his wife(my mother) of 44 years knew he wasn't perfect.<P>But today he is more of hero to me than he was to me as a young boy or man. You know way? Because he overcame his imperfections, weaknesses, fears, etc and did the things he did. He wasn't close to perfect, but he gave everyone around him his best effort. He tried his best to overcome his mistakes.<P>peppermint, marriages are great inspite of human imperfections, not because the two humans are perfect. The absolute wonder of a marriage, especially a long term marriage is what it must overcome. It isn't because two people fit the mold of perfect spouse.<P>I would suggest to you, that the marriage you are grieving was not perfect. I would suggest to you that because of and inspite of Firestorms blunders and foolishness, your future marriage to him can far surpass the marriage that you grieve.<P>For you marriage is very much like my father, imperfect. What made him a hero to me, is how much he did with his imperfections.<P>Think about it.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Dearest Peppermint:<P>For a long time--a LONG TIME--the only way I could allow myself to live as a wife to my H, was to pretend that the old H was gone...and that I was married to a new man.<P>Not only did I grieve the loss of what I thought was a solid marriage, but I was grieving the man I had lost. I was grieving the loss of his purity and innocence. I was grieving the loss of knowing I was his "one and only". I was grieving the loss of his integrity, his honor, his faithfulness....and the list goes on and on and on. In my mind, I kept adding to the list of what I had lost...of what I was missing...of what I could never get back.<P>One day, it occurred to me that <B>I was allowing myself to create a mountain out of a molehill</B>. I was allowing MY MIND to carry me away to someplace I didn't want to be. I was allowing my mind to make MY PROBLEMS so much bigger than they needed to be.<P>MY PROBLEM WAS MY WAY OF LOOKING AT THE SITUATION. MY PERCEPTION WAS FLAWED. My H wasn't the current problem...my immature mind was. I was allowing myself to play havoc with my chance at my own happiness. I was fighting me---not my H. My H was *home*...he had come home a long, long time ago. But, foolishly, I was the one UNWILLING to accept what stood before me.<P>I believe that if you can get a handle on the situation--BY CHANGING YOUR PERCEPTION OF WHAT HAPPENED--that you will then be able to allow yourself to enjoy your marriage, your H, your LIFE.<P><B>I was, in all honesty, fighting MYSELF.</B> When my H would say, "Marie, it was one mistake!", I would fly back with, "It was not one mistake! It was a series of lies, upon lies, upon lies.", or he would say, "I never meant to hurt you," and I would say, "But you did, over and over." My H kept trying to downplay the role the affair played in our lives, and I kept making it LARGER and LARGER and LARGER...until I almost allowed it to swallow me up.<P>Put it in its proper perspective.<P><B>My H's affair WAS one mistake</B>. I allowed my mind to accept that. I allowed myself to *roll* everything up, regarding the A, into one neat little ball. It's all there now. I refuse to make it bigger than what it was. It's NOT bigger than me. <B>It's not part of my marriage.</B> It's this huge ball of nothingness that doesn't even deserve to rest in the corner of my dark, drafty garage.<P>Roll it into one ball and toss it away.<P>Reclaim your marriage.<P>At first I thought I would never be able to meld the old marriage/man with the new. But I did it! YOU CAN TOO!<P>Why in the world would I want to forget the old marriage? My goodness...it was 17 years of happy memories...HAPPY MEMORIES! <B>Your H's affair happened OUTSIDE of your marriage.</B> YOU were not included (thank goodness!). <B> Don't INCLUDE IT IN YOUR HISTORY OF YOUR MARRIAGE. It does NOT BELONG IN YOUR HOME, YOUR HEART, YOUR MIND, OR YOUR HISTORY WITH FIRESTORM</B>.<P>Let it go. Toss it out. Free yourself and the rest will come easily enough.<P>Peace, ~Marie<P>P.S. Why no posts in the Recovery Forum? It's not a jinx to post there, you know ! Ppppsssttttt...we don't bite either !!! Hugs, Marie<P>------------------<BR>"If you cry because the sun has gone out of your life, your tears will prevent you from seeing the stars." ~unknown

PamO,<P>Congratulations on the progress you have made in recovering. My situation is the reverse of yours in that my husband and I constantly talked and made plans for spending the rest of our lives together. Our marriage was not without problems, but we have always been able to overcome them together. Now I look at things in a different way. I feel afraid and insecure about our future, afraid to open myself up to this kind of hurt and disappointment again. I hope to be able to come to the place you are now. Thanks for sharing it with me.<P>cl,<P>Maybe I am stuck in grief, but it has only been three months since this last dday. Perhaps acceptance is on its way. Thanks for responding. It's true that longtimers don't post as often, but it makes me feel that everyone else is moving on and leaving me alone. I want everyone to progress and be happy, but it seems to be coming slowly for me these days. Thanks again.<P>Khyra,<P>Thanks for the advice. My committment has been to do my best, and I am upholding my part. I am not "betraying" firestorm by being hurt and sad, I am being human. Why is it okay to say that firestorm had an affair because he is human, but it is not okay to talk about the way I feel when they are normal human emotions? Perhaps my assumption in incorrect (if so, I apologize) but I assume that you are looking at things from firestorm's perspective instead of mine. Wouldn't it be enlightening to be able to experience the feelings of the other person for just a few minutes? I think one of the greatest obstacles to recovery is our inability to really know and understand how it feels to be betrayed/wayward if you haven't been. It is valuable to have both on this site though, isn't it? Thanks for taking the time to respond.<P>Wassi,<P>I am looking forward to an in-depth update. Your post made perfect sense to me. Thanks so much.<P>JL,<P>Thank you for your response. I have read many of your posts over the months and have often wondered about you. I assume that you are not a betrayer, but also don't see you as a betrayed spouse. Perhaps you are here to "just learn" and offer your advice when you find it appropriate. Maybe you are a counselor of some kind professionally. I am not mourning the loss of a perfect marriage or a perfect husband. Never had nor expected either. I guess I am grieving for shattered vows, broken promises and commandments, loss of innocence and faithfulness, etc, etc. Anyway, thanks for your response and I will think about it.<P>ohmymarie,<P>I can definitely see myself in your post, and boy do I wish overcoming this was as easy as reading your post! I did nearly everything you advise after first discovering the affair and thought we had really progressed. It was the second dday that had really knocked me for a loop and made it twice as hard to get back on track. I haven't given up hope yet though. I was really just looking for a jumpstart and think that you and every one else have helped with that. Thanks!<P>Peppermint

Peppermint,<BR>Personally I think it is healthy to grieve. You cross the line when it turns to bitterness and when you allow yourself to wallow in grief rather than move through it.<P>You suffered a huge loss and a huge set back. Your future is uncertain. Your past was betrayed.<P>I'm not spouting gloom and doom. I believe that marriage may survive and flourish. Of course your personal growth, happiness and future does not rest solely on the outcome of your marriage. No matter what eventually happens in your marriage, you are free to shape your own life.<P>But if we are to grow and learn from life experiences, it seems that we need to process these experiences emotionally.<P>Grieving is an action if you keep processing and keep moving through it...maybe not as quickly as many would deem necessary and maybe not with the clear forward progress we would all like.<P>Even if firestorm is a saint through recovery, you have sustained trauma. You need to heal from that trauma. <P>Don't put to much pressure on yourself. I think you will ultimately be fine.

FHL,<P>Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!! I was beginning to be afraid that someone was actually going to say "just get over it". I am starting to get around it, but not over it. It is just happening slowly right now.<P>I honestly wonder about betrayed spouses who declare themselves recovered after only a few weeks. Do they have a secret that I don't know?<P>Thank you so much for basically saying that I'm doing okay and that I am (somewhat) normal. Bless you!<P>Peppermint

Peppermint,<P>I think the BS who have declared themselves cured after a short time are actually riding high on the "honeymoon" period of reconciliation many times.<P>I also think we grieve, or "get over" it, somewhat as a function of our personality and/or emotional needs.<P>I don't mean to sound superior, but to me honestly and integrity is EVERYTHING personally and of course in my marriage. That was true way before the affair.<P>When I was audited by the IRS years back (I won) at one point I told the auditor that even these minor points she was willing to ignore were important to me to prove, because I felt my integrity was questioned and I "needed" to prove every penny so there was no question of any hint of dishonesty, which I did <P>I harp on my kids about honesty and integrity and in telling the truth.<P>Being honest is so much a part of me, I think that made "getting over" dishonesty on my H's part, more difficult.<P>I think this may be where you are coming from yourself.<P>Two books that really touched me and gave me permission to grieve were The Choosing to Forgive Workbook by Carter and Minrith (spelling) and The Heart of Commitment by Scott Stanley.<P>Take Care<P>

Peppermint,<BR>Great words. Really resonated with you.<P>------------------<BR>*************************<BR>Thronx - one of the statistics....<BR>*************************