Hi all<P>My W(WS) came around to the house last night to leave some money for the childminder since she (W) no longer collects the kids from school.<P>During her brief visit, she informed me that she no longer eats meat and is a vegetarian.<P>This revelation completely stunned me as my Wife had always been a huge fan of steaks, chicken, burgers - the lot.<P>Although apropos to nothing and seemingly innocuous, this has upset me somewhat as it is a clear sign that my W has changed and is no longer the person that I always thought she was. <P>I have a suspicion that the OM may be a vegetarian and she is following his lead. <P>Is this typical infatuation/fog behaviour?(not specifically the vegetarian bit but the willingness to change to be more compatible with OM).<P>I have almost no contact with my W at the moment as I only see her when she collects the kids for her 2-day stint every other weekend.<P>She has been gone for 3 months now but if anything seems more relaxed and determined in her "new life" each time that I see her. I do not instigate any contact with her and was hoping that I may start to receive some "unnecessary" contact from her but it just isn't happening. Any ideas on this? <P>Is the A still at an early stage, is the fog particularly deep at the moment or is she gone for good?<P><BR>Thanks<P><BR>HarryHat<BR>

How old are you both, and how long have you been married? How many kids, what ages?

Survivin<P>I am 32, my W is 30 we have been together since 1990 and were married in 1992. We have a 6yo S and a 3yo D.<P>Please let me know what you think<P><BR>Thanks<P><BR>HarryHat<BR>

HarryHat,<P>Let me give you my perspective. First though, know that I oscillate up and down on the "has she gone for good or is it the fog scale", as I'm sure many of us do. I wouldn't worry about the vegetarian thing. My wife has changed so many things in the past 8 months, I can't keep track.<P>Loves dance music, used to hate it. Eats more meat, used to not do that. Goes to bars now, used to hate it. Had to have a van last hear, now can't stand it (not cool enough). Has friends that do things she used to hate. One that will have a few drinks and drive his kids somewhere. She is adamant about not doing that, but it is suddenly OK for this friend. Bought a leather skirt...used to hate those and make fun of them. My wife suddenly switched marjarine brand, and although it sounds silly, I think OM buys that kind...long story, but it fits with his culture, which incidently, is the biggest mind blower for me...she used to say that this particular culture was too different than ours, and people from the two should not date. She dated someone of that origin before and it was a disaster. Just the differences in lifestyle. But now that must be fine. She was adamant against daycare, but now it is fine. Kids couldn't have toy guns to play with, now that is fine. Not all of this is OM related, but the changes and flip flopping around are incredible. Like you say, "who is this person". I look at pictures sometimes, and say exactly that. "Where are you gone?". She was always disgusted at people that leave their spouses and then have an OP around the kids early on. She has done that. They just lose their brains and start acting ridiculous.<P>I don't think you can say "she is gone" There are lots of cases of people coming back after a long time. What are you doing with yourself? Have you seen the threads about Plan A/B hybrid, being unavailable, changing stuff, such as new clothes, making it somehow obvious that you are moving on and enjoying life? That is what I plan to do. I think this phase you are in (and I'm probably entering) is difficult because it is a limbo stage, where you don't know what it going on.<P>Do you know the status of wife and OM? Any other updates?<P>I know how you feel and believe me, all us guys and gals in similar situations are feeling the same. Some days more, some days less. I find it really helps to just be in control, and plot your own course out for the case that it doesn't work out. We don't really want to think about that, but that is part of Plan A. And it is beneficial for letting them see us as stronger, in control, and ultimately, desirable. I know you already know all this stuff. Hang in there. Now that I've said this, I'll probably post something similar tomorrow, who knows. One other thing. Just the lack of contact your wife had with the kids (and probably still does) throughout the start, tells me her fog level is high. It takes alot of fog for someone to just ignore their kids for awhile. This "love" they all feel does such weird things to their heads.

Harry,<P>If the OM is a vegetarian, and your wife was a big fan or meat---I say GREAT!!!<P>Yet another "lifestyle change" that is truly hard to pull off for long term. This will (unintentionally) put pressure on the "fantasy" of the relationship. Although it's not a perfect correlation, the "wackier" they become (and more out of character), the sooner the fantasy caves in, due to unsustainable behavioral changes.<P>But don't send her a pack of Omaha steaks for Christmas, OK!

Can you say FOG,FOG,FOG,FOG....I have something that I will share that may make you see things more clearly. I preached that I would never cheat on my husband, I was the perfect wife(far from it I know now). After twenty plus years I met a man. I told him no, no, no, he persisted. I ended up moving out of my husbands house. For the first time in my life I lived alone. I was seeing this man talking only(not cheating in my mind). After a month or so of my Husband calling me every name in the book, wishing death on me etc. I willingly fell into the OM arms. We are now married, my ex filed for divorce shortly after I moved out. I know he spoke out of anger, fear, hurt. Well three years into the relationship with my current H I find that it was all built on lies. He needed a strong woman to stand by him to face what he is facing now. My whole relationship with him was built on lies. I am still married to him, but with hindsight I now recognize the fog I was in. So in my opinion it is never too late as my ex could have won me over many times before I actually married this H. He just didn't know how close he was to doing it and gave up. I am now closer to my ex then ever before because I walk in his shoes now and know the heartache and pain of being married to someone like me. I will tell everyone on here if you want your spouse regardless of the hurt and pain they have caused you fight for them. Even when the battle seems lost it might not be. I am fighting for this marriage because my ex did not fight for ours. I refuse to keep hopping from one marriage to another and I think that we are worth the effort. At least I pray we are. Just my two cents worth. Jenni

Harry and others - my wife suddenly started going to a Catholic Church (see grew up Methodist). Why? OM and family went there. She enrolled our son in CCD (or whatever it is) because "those kids seem to turn out pretty good." <P>I too, am scared of the gone for good potential. It seems like they're too far gone to ever get back.<P>WAT

Harry,<BR>My x went through the same. She went with om to a racing car parts wholesaler and thought it was cool. She went to a gun show or two with him and took our son the second time. Third time she didn't go, om took son.<P>We were always amandmant against the kids having TVs or telephones in their bedrooms and this was the first thisng she promised them.<P>I thinks it is and effort on their part to find something else in common with the op other than that romantic feeling.<P>She also talked about dressing sexier, but she is wearing pretty much the same type of clothes she always had.<P>Just hang in, reality always returns, sooner or later.<P>Bob

K said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the "wackier" they become (and more out of character), the sooner the fantasy<BR>caves in, due to unsustainable behavioral changes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How I wish that were true! My H has always hated living close to neighbors - we lived in a townhouse apartment for a month and it near drove him nuts. I don't think I can put in words how much it bothered him. The year we lived in a suburban house was nearly as bad. For many, many, years his goal was to live on lots of acreage - we had farmed part-time for years, and for awhile full-time. Now he is living in a surburban condo not far from the city with the OW. Has been for 21 months. No longer has any interest in anything he used to feel passionate about.<P>We would like to think that uncharacteristic behaviors are not sustainable, but that assumes that there is such a thing as character. I no longer believe that there is such a thing as a "real" character or "real" personality. People will act in whatever way is necessary to get what they want at the time. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited December 05, 2000).]

Nellie:<P>I consider your husband pretty "outside the norm" for what he's doing. It seems that he's just completely snapped. I think that Chris's wife is in that category as well.<P>My hopes are that your husband "snaps" back in a timeframe that would save your marriage. It's probably not very likely, but I'm always an optimist.<P>{{{{{Nellie}}}}}

Dear Harry Hat,<P>Don't be discouraged by your wife's behavior. It's not over until you say it is.<P>People in affairs adapt their behavior to more accomodate the object of their current affections. My H for 22 years always liked spicy food and now won't touch it. Guess why?<BR>OW doesn't like it. Consider it part of the fog.<P><BR>Be positive and upbeat when you see your wife. Think of the future not of the past.<P>Hope<P><BR>

You know I think it really comes down to our spouses not knowing who they are. It's ok to change your mind or dislike something that you once liked or vice versa...but you know my H started hanging around only single people, listening to music that teens are listening too...using words that high school kids use...and now well he is running a company...how is that a good profile now? Now he likes cavier and the cars we drive aren't good enough and he will only wear armani level clothes....because now he is hanging around rich and social people. They are camelians (sp?) I know I have been rocked to the core with all this, but I know who I am ...I forget sometimes, but day in and day out, I know who I am...<BR>we can call it fog, but if these folks really knew who they were then they would not be doing what they are doing to all of us on this board. Despite the horrible acts my husband has committed against our marriage and the emotional abuse and neglect, I have not had an affair...at times I would love to just do it...but I know that it isn't what is missing...I know this won't solve my problem...is it fog, probably, but it's a lack of self.<BR>Just my thoughts...

K,<P>Thanks. Unfortunately, he only has about 3 weeks to "snap back" before the divorce he forced on me is final. <P>Not that I am planning on going anywhere afterwards....

I agree with cpickel on this.<P>The fact that someone is willing to makeover himself to fit an image that another (OP) has of him or is trying to create shows a great deal of low self esteem. <P>I have seen my WS adopt the morals, dress and survival habits of the OW he got involved with. It's like a teenager trying to fit in to a group...to find a commonality with the group. With teenagers they are trying to find themselves...an adult should already have a pretty fair picture of his identity. But we see them changing...trying to be something that they're not...and I agree that basically you cannot change what you are...you only alter it for a while.<P>I think it's also interesting that OW tried to change everything about him...why?...wasn't he good enough the way he was...why did she have to change him? Perhaps to make him more like herself...huh.<BR>To bring him down to her level or just to exercise her control over him? Who knows.<P>I will say that absent her influence, he quickly reverted to his old self. Must not have really like the "new" him.<P>Angels & Prayers ~ Faye <P>

Thanks to everyone for the replies to this thread.<P>Rick,<BR>As ever, you seem to have an understanding of the situation and are experiencing similar things yourself. I suppose that as much as we seek reassurance from others on the Board that these things are 'normal' behaviour, one always feels that their own particular case is special.<BR>With respect to your questions, I feel that I am following a Plan A/B hybrid that is essentially akin to the Last Resort Technique<BR>(LRT) from the Divorcebusting book.<BR>I do not initiate any contact with my W and am trying to rebuild a life that is not<BR>dependent upon her. Although I have not actively managed to change much about myself as yet (all my time is taken with work and kids), I don't know if my W would notice anyway as I hardly ever see her.<P>As such I don't know of her situation with OM, I am 99% certain he is on the scene and I think that they talk daily by cellphone and meet up on alternate weekends. My W lives in a house that she is renting and spends most nights alone as far as I can tell. The fog level is hard to determine but if OM is still on scene then she probably can't even 'see' me even when she's looking at me. My kids are OK but at present my 3yo has not seen Mummy since 26th Nov., my 6yo saw her on Monday evening when she came around to collect some mail and <BR>he had not yet gone to bed (I don't think she planned on him being awake still)<P>I have been following the post by AGoodGuy and share his concerns that this may be less to do with the fog and could be a planned exit from the marriage with the OM being a convenient catalyst - I really don't know as my W left on D-Day and will not entertain any conversation relating to "us" and what the real issues are.<P><BR>K,<BR>I am in the UK and so am not sure what Omaha steaks are. They sound good!<P><BR>harddaynight,<BR>Thanks for your valuable insight from the other side of the equation.<BR>I would be grateful if you could possibly spell out a little more clearly what things that your first H could have done in fighting for your marriage that you feel would have made you take notice or consider<BR>returning. I often feel that the Plan A/B/LRT techniques could be interpreted by my W as me having given up and just ignoring her. However whenever I have tried to talk about "us" and said that I would like her back she becomes negative and says that "that will never happen".<BR>I don't want to give up yet but am realistic enough to understand that at some stage I may have to.<P><BR>WAT,<BR>Thanks again for responding to one of my posts. I am not a particularly religious person but I can understand the sudden change in beliefs your W has exhibited - weird isn't it? I read in another post about your Life Crisis theory (I am sorry about your son). I often think that a similar factor could have triggered my W's behaviour. She turned 30 this year<BR>and found her natural Father for the first time (he abandoned her Mother when my W was 3 months old) I am also wondering if my W is just planning a whole new life fo herself with OM, new Father, new House, new social<BR>circle of Internet Friends etc. She is certainly ignoring me almost completely now and has only seen our kids on 5 days in the last 23.<P><BR>Bob/RWD,<BR>Thanks for your comments also, I have not read too many of your posts but will do so later today, we appear to be in similar situations along with Rick, Wat, AGoodGuy (the list goes on...) I hope that reality<BR>does return and that it is not too late for all of us.<P><BR>Nellie1,<BR>You have an interesting theory about the chameleon-characteristics that some people have. I also wonder if this is applicable to my W. She and I were both outgoing when we first met but in recent years we have both become "housebound" a little due to the responsibilties of kids, work etc. The way that my W is choosing to behave right now<BR>seems to be the lifestyle of a young and free teenager with no responsibilities. The OM is actually 6 years older than my W and<BR>he is married with a 4yo. I think that he may be having MLC and is acting beneath his years and my W finds this exciting that he can abandon his responsibilities and feels that it is OK for her to do the same.<P><BR>Hope,<BR>I see your WS had a diet change also. I will try and think of the future it's just so hard when the present grinds you into the ground most days.<P><BR>cpickel/buffy,<BR>I think that you may both be right that certain types of people may be predisposed to having A's due to low self-esteem. It is almost that they are not a complete person unless they are with somebody who can boost their ego. As such they will change any aspect of themselves to continue gaining this boost from the OP. I think that some of our WS's probably don't have a real identity of their own or enough self-knowledge to understand what they need to do or say to make themselves happy either alone or with their marital partner.<P>In my case, my W had made virtually no comment to me of her apparent dissatisfaction with our marriage, other than the very occasional gripe that we didn't do as much together as we used to. I guess that is the main EN that was missing. <P>If I had felt so strongly about an unmet need then I would have made sure that my W was aware of it rather than passing infrequent "coded" comments. Maybe that's just a gender difference in communication techniques. I now know that I should have <BR>taken these comments with a little more concern and delved deeper, but at the time they didn't register with me as being a cry for help by a "trapped" partner. Now I know better and would do anything to put the situation right - I am just waiting for the chance that I will hopefully get one day.<P><BR>Sorry for rambling<P>HarryHat

Harry, my story is so long over twenty years worth, I had left my husband many many times without another man in the picture, I just feel that he gave up on me, and not without reason, I do know that the mean things he said just help me reason out why we were so unperfect for each other even though we had been together over half of our lives. I am now on the other side of the fence and understand so much more, the pain he was going thru and even now I could rekindle with him, but you know what, first I am married to another second I really love my first too much to put him thru it. He is happier without me, I am glad he finally has some peace. He drank a lot with me and pulled inside of himself, what drew me to the OM (now my H) was the emotional need of conversation. The intimacy that my first H was just too hurt to give me. I had had an EA years before (he was drinking and would not come home until the wee hours of the morn, I had two babies, and his best friend was more then willing to sit with me and listen and help me with the babies. When he made the move to get physical I bolted and ran to my H. I told him everything, he could never forgive me. I still miss him and think of him a lot. Going thru this A with my H I am so tempted to run to my first. This time I will do what is right and stand by my H. I wish you luck. Forgiveness and perserverence is the key. Don't give her any reason to justify what she is doing. Just be the man she fell in love with. When the roof caves in give her a safe spot to run. Jenni

harddaynight<P>Thanks for the additional insight into your situation. I expect that I am not alone as a BS in hoping/expecting that our WS's will some day regret their actions. It seems that time is the critical issue in that the WS needs to regret and reconsider before the BS finally gives up hope.<P>The most frustrating thing is to try and maintain a consistent approach with a WS when their behaviour seems to swing erratically each time that you see them (which in my case is not that often) It seems sometimes as though they are deliberately trying to goad a bad reaction out of you in order to justify their opinion that you are the "bad" one and that they have done the right thing in leaving.<P>Thanks again<P><BR>HarryHat