weep,<P>I read in one of your replies that you pray for God's revenge on OW.<P>I believe we do have a real need for justice, but how do we get to where Jesus says we should pray for God's mercy on those who wrong us? I can't quite FEEL that second prayer.

schizzo, <P>As far I'm concerned, I am reaping what I've sown by the one night stand I had. Just didn't think my stbx would be the one to make me pay by his 2 PA's this year and one EM. I guess I deserve it, but I've spent the past 2 years trying my damnest to work on things. I guess in essence I wasn't good enough. But anyways as far as the my stbx's OW(plural), they will get there's. ANd all I will pray when it comes to the OW, it that GOD's WILL will be done in there life. And by His law, it is automatic that they will reap wht they have sown. His mercy will be the forgiveness.<P>It doesn't matter how much of a christian I am or how saved I am, so to speak, whenever you plant a seed, wether bad or good, it will harvest in it's season.<P><P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

jamie-lee<P>Good to bring you out of lurkdom, girl!<P>Now, you bring up the spouse issue as well. My h didn't just have a one night stand. He had a 6 month PA, then another 4 month PA, all behind my back on his business trips.<P>But since I wanted the marriage, it was easier to be merciful to him. He has NOT suffered what he deserves, I'm the one who suffered and it's tough to handle.<P>I know you have had a very hard time letting go of the guilt. You made a mistake, it's over and it doesn't help to beat yourself up. Your h made HIS OWN CHOICES and though it sometimes feels like an A on the part of the faithful spouse would set things straight, we know two wrongs don't make a right. Your h has his own sins to deal with, and I would think is going to lose you for good if he continues this way. Lor is the only really good success story I've seen where they both were WS and BS.<P>We COULD pray that God would have mercy on the OWs and they would fall on their knees and repent. If they turned their lives around, they might NOT have to reap any. Does this make sense? I don't know if either OW suffered at all in my case. How do I get to the point of praying this was my real question...<p>[This message has been edited by schizzo (edited December 07, 2000).]

<BR>The OW and WS will definetly get their just desserts. Maybe not here and now but we all must face what we have done when we meet our maker. He is not oblivious to what the OW have done, as well as what the WS's have done. I get peace from knowing He will have the last say. That is revenge enough.<P>Sil<p>[This message has been edited by SillyMe (edited December 07, 2000).]

I have a hard time praying for or forgiving the OW because I am afraid she will never get what she deserves if she is saved. But then again I guess I will never get what I deserve either. I haven't done what she has done and I don't think I could dream of doing it - especially of being so deliberate and conniving and sneaky and being proud of it to boot. I mean she saw us together happy and she attempted to destroy that and she certainly has done a good job of ruining our happiness for now at least - what especially makes me angry is that she came by after my son was born and held him and gave him some expensive gift (to impress my mother-in-law) and she has tried to ruin his life too. Anyway... I couldn't do that but i have sinned in other ways maybe not ways that are so obviously bad in the eyes of society but still bad in the eyes of God and I don't deserve his grace - I know that but I still can't control my feelings of hate and desire for revenge. it is very confusing and difficult to be human.<BR>

This was an interesting post. It was written by a man who had once had an affair but decided to end it and stay with his wife. He is responding to her woman about a post she had written regarding affairs.<P>He wrote:<P>Personally, I have no objections to your perspective of affairs in general. All parties do have the potential for injury, it's the nature of the beast. However, as one of the posters pointed out and I raise this same question to you and any wives that may be reading this, why do the wives only "seldom and selectively" brand their husband's? Why do they not see their husband's are in the same role as the other woman? The other woman is not disillusioned about the status of her marriage(in most cases.) The wives are fooling themselves if they truly believe otherwise. <P> I have not read of many on this board but, on the sister board, there are many happy endings of married men and other women going off into the sunset hand in hand. Each new board reflects the words: "H left me to live with OW". <BR>Perhaps, as you've stated, the OW does have a choice. But being a male and having statistics that will back me up, the majority of affairs, are started by men. Therefore, the blame and responsibility first and<BR>foremost of having a choice, lies with the man, the husband and not the OW. <BR>I am deeply sorry that I did not have the opportunity to share in the joys and sorrows of my OW's life. I would have loved nothing more then the joy of the two of us bringing a child into this world together. Unfortunately, that was not the Lord's plan for us as we didn't find each other until much later in our lives. It was not the other woman that tarnished those memories, it was YOUR husband! <P> <BR> <BR>

Let me throw my two cents in here, coming from a very different perspective. Jamie-lee wrote:<P>"whenever you plant a seed, wether bad or good, it will harvest in it's season."<P>I've read a great deal about the Buddhist concept of Karma. That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. Another way of putting it would be to look at evil deeds as debts, and good deeds as payments into a bank account which will eventually pay its dividends according to how you have handled your account. <P>The idea of Karma has given me a great deal of comfort lately, since I don't have to wish any evil or any revenge upon anyone, whether it be my STBX, or the OM. Their actions will have an impact on their future, and it's not likely to turn out well for them. It also helps to remind me that I, too, will reap what I sow eventually. <BR>

schizzo,<P>Jesus speaking:<BR>"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy'<BR>But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." Matthew 5:43-44<P>I have a prayer journal that I started just for the OW. It's my "enemy prayer journal", so to speak. (I have a journal for everything!) I did not and do not FEEL like praying for her. When I first started, all I FELT like doing is pulling her apart limb by limb... But, I decided to trust God that He knew best. He says to PRAY for her and so I decided to. If you are waiting until you feel like it, it could be a while. Same thing as forgiving our Hs, I guess. <P>I'll share some prayers of mine for the OW that are in my journal that may help you get started. <P>Dear God,<BR>I pray for ***. I don't want to Lord. I am only doing so because you told me to. I am hoping that through praying for her you can work in me and turn my bitterness, hate, anger, disgust, and jealousy around. Only you can Lord. Help me pray with a clean spirit. I lift *** up to you. I pray for her wherever she is right now. (Hopefully China!) I pray that you will begin to work in her heart. I pray that she will feel compelled by the Spirit to pray and seek you. Pour your love out on her. I pray that she will see that who she needs is you and not some man. I pray that someone in her life will show her compassion so she will know how to have it for others. I pray for her relationship with her daughter. Help her to be a good mother. Help me to be also, Lord. <P>I pray that her life will be blessed and you will use her as a tool in your kingdom. I pray you will make her life abundant and overflowing with real joy from you. I pray she will find peace and purity. I pray you will give her and her daughter safety and people in their lives will show compassion on them. <P>God, please hear my prayers. I pray with all my heart for their salvation through all this so that my suffering will not have been in vain. Maybe that is wrong of me God, but that is how I feel. I want this to be turned around for your good Lord. Help me God, to continue to feel burdened to pray for her. I can imagine the used and alone feeling she must live with. Show her that you are the only one to fill that void. <P>God, I do not want to pray for her today and have been harboring HATE toward her in my heart. This I come to you and admit, Lord. She has so wronged me and I did not deserve this. She is an enemy that lurked in wait to devour me. How I hate her for all she did! And to find out from (third party) all the other men she has done this same thing to. ALL THE OTHER WOMEN. Women who do not know like I do. She is poison. And I hate her. She took away what was precious to me. She hurt my children. She did this out of immaturity, insecurity, and selfishness. She did this out of malice, hatred for everyone but herself. God, don't let this same attitude stay in me any longer. I now hate her - out of my own Christian insecurity, immaturity - out of my selfishness for my pain - out of my personal insecurity. I am filled with immature jealousy. I realize that in these ways I am now the same as her. God make a way for forgiveness. Make a way for grace. Lift me above this. I pray today for myself. I pray also for ***. I lift her up to you in prayer today. I pray for her salvation. How hopeless it must feel to feel this way and have no deliverer! Lord, let my prayer not be condescending and judgmental. These are just the things I know to pray about." <P>These are just some of the things I have prayed. I sometimes pray about her job and I frequently pray for her daughter. I also pray for all the other marriages she comes in contact with, as I know she has destroyed many. <P>I will not seek revenge on her in any way. This has nothing to do with my relationship with her and everything to do with my relationship with God. I don't know how He will punish her for what she has done. I just am trusting Him and I put the whole thing in His hands. He doesn't give me what I deserve and it is not my place to decide what she deserves. I don't pray for God's wrath for her. I am no *better* a sinner than she is. She has hurt me tremendously and without cause. But, I am so much closer to her than I am to holy God. It just all comes down to trusting God. Just about all my prayers for her start with "I don't want to pray for her". But, I will do it nonetheless, because it is an act of obedience and an expression of my faith and trust in God and His perfect will, not mine. Hope this helps. DI <P><BR>

Hi schizzo,<P>Good question! I DO pray everynight and I always mention the OW. I pray that she will accept responsibility for her actions and that she will change her ways, but mostly I pray that I will be able to forgive her and let go of the evil thoughts and bad feelings I have for her. I honestly feel that I need to empty my heart and soul of the bad feelings to allow more room for the good feelings needed to survive and recover.<P>Like many of the posters above, I truly believe that my husband and the OW are equally guilty of the affair. How can I truly forgive him and at the same time carry hate and anger for her? After all, he is the one who betrayed ME, not her. She was just the tool he used to hurt me, just as my husband was the tool she used to hurt her husband. She may have pursued him and enticed him, but he was a willing participant in the affair.<P>I would really be afraid to pray for revenge, but I sometimes catch myself sort of hoping for it. Perhaps it is only natural to want her to hurt the way that I do, but it is still wrong to want it. So I continue to pray that God will help me to change my feelings, and I can tell that it is slowly happening. I also pray that I will be able to forgive firestorm again, but that seems to be coming a little slower. I'll keep praying about it though.<P>Peppermint<BR>

I've been reading the bible, and am just starting 1peter. Right directly above my bookmark in James is this passage.<P>"Confess your faults to one another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."<P>I've thought for some time that the act of forgiveness is not for the one who has victimized, but for the victim. The trauma is bad enough without adding the baggage of hatred, and resentment. So in effect you are not letting her off the hook for what she did. She is still going to need to reconcile her behavior at the very least to God. By forgiving you are setting yourself free.

well I definitely haven't reached the stage where I can pray so nicely for the OW but I do sometimes reluctantly add into a prayer for god not to condemn her to hell for what she has done to me. I can't bring myslef to do more than that now even though I know I should and my father tells me to everytime he talks to me. He prays for her though. i told him to do it for the meantitme until I can bring myself to. I do admit I still wish she'd at least get some payback here on earth.<BR>in response to that post that someone posted that a man wrote. it sounded to me like he still loves his OW since he talks about wishing he could have brought a child into the world with her and stuff and if that is the case he would defend her and I don't take his opinion that seriously. In my case I know my husband wasn't confused about the state of his feeling for me. he never considered dumping me for her and he didn't want a future with her. he had a one night stand which he immediately regretted. What he did wrong was disregard my feelings and convince himself (before and while doing it) that is wouldn't hurt anybody because it was casual and noone else would know. She helped convince him of that and that was a lie on her part because she was anything but casual about it. I do think she tried to hurt me and she schemed to destroy me and that is how she was wrong. I think that situations vary from case to case and in all cases both parties are wrong but in some the wrong is equal and in others it falls more to one than the other. Look at the serpant and eve - the serpant decieved her. the serpant was the devil who is also called the deceiver because he leads people into sin. his punishment is the greatest of all and he has no hope of redemption. eve's (and Adam's) sin was to allow him to lead her away from what she knew was right - she allowed him to convince her that the consequences wouldn't be so bad as god said if she did wrong. Her punishment was mortality and hell if she did not repent but she was (and we all are) given the opportunity for redemption. in my case, the OW deceived my husband first with friendship and then tempted him with the false concept that they could do that and it wouldn't mean anything. i'm not excusing him. Sometimes i hate him for what he did and HE hurt me but I do hold her more responsible for the situation ever arising.

Dear Schizzo,<P>How are you today? I will try to answer your ? as best as I know how. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR> weep,<P> I read in one of your replies that you pray for God's revenge on OW.<P> I believe we do have a real need for justice, but how do we get to where Jesus says we<BR> should pray for God's mercy on those who wrong us? I can't quite FEEL that second<BR> prayer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Life is definitely not the same after a spouse's A. <P>Schizzo, I am glad that you ask me about what Jesus said regarding revenge because I actually try as much as I can to hear as much of the Word as I can so that with that knowledge, walk in the light. Other forms of wisdom can work as a defence mechansim but I personally find my healing rests with the Lord. I am also glad that you have asked this because it makes me think about this issue again and to pray for wisdom to handle this as well.<P>The references in the bible regarding revenge are: <BR>Deuteronomy 32:34-35<BR>Psalm 94:1<BR>Proverbs 25:21-22<BR>Matthew 5:38-42<BR>Romans 12:17-21<BR>1 Thessalonians 5:12-15<BR>1 Peter 3:8-14<P>I believe that it is important to read the book or chapter to understand the context in which the verses appear. This gives a better and more holistic view than ad hoc interpretations. <P>According to scriptures, it is said that "it is mine to avenge; I will repay". It is also said that if one treats the enemy right you are 'heaping burning coals on his head" and the Lord will reward you. It is also said in Matthew about "eye for an eye" and how to love in enemies and pray for those who persecute you so that you will be perfect as Jesus is.<P>In Romans, it is also written that one should not repay evil with evil....but leave room for God's wrath. It is also said in 1 Thessalonians that try not to pay wrong with another wrong, and in 1 Peter that even if you suffer from evil, you will be blessed.<P>Strangely or rightly so, despite the blackmail trap, my anger is really more practically directed at my WS. To be drunk is a sin, and to get into such a mess that culminated in the early demise of my beloved father is really unforgiveable as far as my human mind can conceive. I first had to make a CHOICE to forgive my WS. I wanted to have revenge on him and did a lot of stuff that I need to ask God for forgiveness of.<P>As for the witch OP, her continued harrassment and plunging a knife in my WS plus my beloved father's premature demise were "very abstract" to me because the most acute pain was from my WS - a man I trusted and believed was faithful, protective and responsible and he was instrumental in letting the witch OP destroy so much because the adultery enabled her to invade our private spaces and sanctity and wreck damage through cruelty.<P>My pastor prayed the prayer of swift justice on the witch OP but he did ask God to have mercy on her soul. It was very bad when my life is consumed with hatred and anger towards my WS, I really didn't want to think of revenge for such an evil witch, and I gladly leave her to God's wrath. She has often used God's name in vain when she wrote to WS, and even now sends parcels to WS using God as an excuse to try to meet up with him again.<P>WHat I really hate is that WS'A made me into a really unrecognisable person in my own eyes. But to forgo revenge seems the wisest thing to do. A few weeks ago, I called up my pastor to ask if I had to forgive the witch OP? He said in time it would be good for me so that I will be made whole. He did advise that I try to heal and recover and forgive me WS first and keep my heart open to allow Jesus to work a miracle in me. In time, I may be able to forgive and banish her from my mind. He understands that it is still very raw.<P>My WS was the first to bring up about forgiveness for the witch because she really did everything she could to destroy what she coveted and besides the knifing, there were other horrendous events (I can't disclose because it was going to be a court case) that would have made most exact revenge. He still sees the obituaries so that he can find her there as she is still lurking around trying to find out if we are divorced or such. <P>Schizzo,<BR>I pray for God's revenge that "vengence is God's". In the early days, I actually ask God to exact certain type of vengence but now I leave it in God's hands and as a witness of how great God's vengence is, I am at peace.<P>God's mercy on those who wrong us :<BR>A brother-in-Christ explained that his boss was really being unfair to him and was almost going to fire him eventually. He prayed for God's mercy on him and for the boss to know Jesus that Jesus may change him and fill him with justice and good character. The boss became a Christian and actually changed and the work environment became better.<P>This example is rather straightforward. I know in the case of As, it is much more than that and that is why 'affairs are the ultimate risk and betrayal in a marriage'. In praying for mercy for any witch OPs, it really is about mercy on the soul. Even my WS will be punished by God for what he did to me and the family and marriage whether he was the aggressor or not. <P>Personally, I don't say any long prayers for the witch OP (I rather reserve the time for all the loved ones and pastors' family, etc..) but only when I feel the hatred and anger, I would pray for God to help me and to banish such bad feelings and repeat that I know that vengence is the Lord's and that whatever has passed, such as my beloved father's death, the Lord's Grace is sufficient for all my needs. I thank God for being there, all knowing and all seeing and for God to make me whole. I pray that one day, I may attain the gift of wholeness and that God leads me to find it.<P>One day, I may finish a prayer with mercy on her soul. <P>Basically, Jesus understands human nature and how some people can be evil beyond understanding but He doesn't want us to become evil by returning evil for evil. He wants us to be blameless, peaceloving and full of love that if the end of times were to sneak in tomorrow, we will be found blameless in His sight. <P>Schizzo, I have sinned against my WS because of the way I try to hurt him due to my emotional trauma. I became an ugly person filled with rage, hatred, bitterness, jealousy, etc..But God is good, and He is a Deliverer. Reading His Word, going to healing seminars, and getting more involved in bible studies have helped me slowly gain more understanding of God, life and myself.<P>I would like to end with God's Grace is Sufficient. He really prepared me during WS's A and after and every time I think that life is so sh*tty, I remember all the visions and messages, and I realise that at the end, it REALLY IS between YOU AND GOD. How we treat others and ourselves either bring us closer or further away from God. The Devil wants us to be far away from God and to thwart God's plans for us. <P>I look forward to hearing your point of view.<P>God bless you<BR>take care<BR>weep <p>[This message has been edited by weep (edited December 08, 2000).]

I don't have much time as I am leaving on a trip tomorrow, and as usual I'm a ways from being ready.<P>Yes, certainly in my case, the WS was the one who initiated and bears the brunt of the guilt. Even if he hadn't, he owes me fidelity, he took vows to me. So, yes, I believe it does help to get perspective first.<P>weep, I know anger is not healthy for us. Part of what raised the question in my mind was the anger coming from your posts. Even if she deserves the terms witch and slut, maybe it would help to stop using them and realize that the OWs are also hurting, needy women who are going about life all wrong.<P>DI, thank-you for posting your prayer. I think that is the closest I've seen to what I'm seeking. I first prayed that God would revenge the pain she had caused in me. She told my h in emails I read that one day she wanted to marry a guy who would be faithful to her and would come to her if he had problems (she was single, h being totally in the fog thought that was so sweet - what a hypocrite he was being as he never once told me he had a problem, in fact he was faking being very happy with our relationship.)<P>So it seemed it would be just if she too experienced this pain, and the way she is going about dating almost guarantees she will unless she repents.<P>Then one day, I was able to turn over both OWs to the Lord to do what He thought best. As you said, DI, we are all in need of His grace. We don't want what we deserve either.<P>I am trying to go one step more - to actually pray that they could turn their lives around and have a happy home of their own, but this one is TOUGH.<P>As to forgiving my WS, that also continues to be tough. Some days it just seems like it will never be "right". And yet, the Lord has already brought a lot of good out of it in the way I have learned to recenter myself and find my self-worth from Him instead of my h. And our marriage is so much better than it ever was. Maybe it's just that I also want more than I ever have...

Speaking of 1peter, there is a pretty substantial section in there about the role of husband and wife. I don't know what relevance it has on this particular question, but it talks about wife deferring to husband because in her quiet faith she has stronger power to lead him to Christ. He is supposed to listen to her. It was in our marriage ceremony, and I was rather upset with our priest at the time because we had asked that that particular passage not be read. He built his sermon on it. Sometimes God works in mysterious ways.