My WS has continued to sound quite down the past few days. Two nights ago, she again asked "So how ARE you doing?". I said "fine" in my cheeriest voice, and she repeated, "so you are OK?". I said yes, and how are you. She said "I'll be OK", but it wasn't very convincing. I threw in an I miss you soon after, and she said she missed me too, and added "alot". I question if that is simply lip service to keep me on backburner. I'm not getting excited over it.<P>Next day though, she was having a bad day, got stuck in snow, house had another leak, couldn't come to get our daughter, and started to cry while on the phone, saying "tell them I miss them and love them". This went on for under a minute, then she said she had to go.<P>She asked if I'd stop by her work on the way home last night. My son wouldn't get out of the vehicle to see her, so she had to come out (desk right at the door) to see him. He wouldn't hug her, and did she ever look sad, and bent her head and let out an "aaahhhhh" of sadness. He also said he didn't want to go to her place today. Sadly enough, in one way I want this to happen so it helps crack the fantasy, but on the other hand, I feel terrible too seeing my children act differently. She said yesterday and the day before "[Son] won't want to see me anymore".<P><BR>Later she called to apologize for having the episode earlier in the day (I said we all have bad days, don't worry, hope you are feeling better, etc.).<P>Other than these things, there is just phone calls a few times a day that are just dealing with an issue here or there, general chat (brief). I find I don't have alot to talk to her about...she has a double life and so much of what I hear is somewhat phony.<P>Today she called me and sounded quite unhappy. A friend that teaches marriage courses (using Light His/Her Fire) has apparently bugged her in the past to take the course, and is still doing so. Whatever she is asking of my wife is really annoying my WS. Who knows what the real story is. My wife asked if I gave her my wife's phone number. I've met this woman once, back in July, and wouldn't know her if I bumped into her.<P>Despite any unhappiness, I assume that OM is still around. I just don't know the status. They have tried to revert to friends in the past, but of course we all know how long that lasts. One thing I wonder....if she knows he won't offer a future, assuming that is still the case, why continue to see him? Is the addiction that strong? Wouldn't she feel used by him? Or do they not think about that cause of the fog...just go with your feelings of love and hope for a change. I did see her write once, that she'll take a chance on where this relationship is headed, but she understood "the situation".<P>So all in all, I see signs of the world not being so rosy, but that is it. Sounds really grumpy. Doesn't translate into anything for us, but I guess if something is to happen, it can be a long while for her to sort out her head.<P>In the meantime, hybrid Plan A and live my life. Sometimes I look at her and wonder, can WE be close again, so many lies, a relationship with someone, reluctance for counselling (always). Thanks to MB I believe/hope it can happen.<p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited December 13, 2000).]

Rick - sounds like she's ready to crack. Let her. Don't feel too sympathetic - there'll be time for that later - after the crash. Keep doing what you're doing. I'd give anything for one phone call a week. If this is new, it sounds like she's coming to you. She's starting to pay the toll?<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited December 13, 2000).]

WAT,<P>Thanks. The calls aren't new...we've always kept in touch. Seems to be a habit for her to keep calling me, even if for some small issue/topic to touch base on. They are unfulfilling though, and sometimes I cringe because a portion of the calls are for some obscure favor that she needs that is based on some lie.<P>Anyway, she is definitely not a real happy camper these days, but I'm not holding my breath for a sudden change. She is stubborn, especially these days, and I'm assuming her head is full of things, including OM still.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited December 13, 2000).]

Rick<P>Keep your chin up, sounds like you are doing well. I think I know how you feel as the situation is somewhat similar with my W even though she is still at home. I believe your Ws downer may be caused by the guilt she is experiencing along with the ENs that you were filling whilst she was at home. The gloss of moving in to her new home may be fading somewhat with the added disadvantages. <P>Remember consistency is the main tool you have at your disposal. By being consistent and following the MB principals you have an edge over the OM who will not have the benefit of the knowledge you have found here at MBs. Let him make the mistakes, show his real colours. It may take time but is sure to happen. With your W a little depressed that will be putting a strain on their relationship as well and may clear this "fog"..<P>It will also take time for your W to see that the changes you have made for the better are permanent. I do honestly believe that this is what they (WSs)are looking for most as it causes the biggest doubts in their minds.<P>My W constantly talks about how people really can't change and what they are is shaped early in life. Then in the next breath she comments on how she has consistently seen changes for the better in me.<P>Unfortunately the wild card as we all know is the "fog" they are in. It will take the OM to make a few errors to help clear this fog, once that happens you are seen to be the one that consistently showed care over the period.<P>It is so hard Rick I know but hang in there. <P>Colin

<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

Rick -<P>Just stopping by to say "hang in there." I think inlimbo gave you some wonderful advice - consistency is the key. Be the same kind and loving person that you are and hopefully that will be the pull that brings her back. This has got to be tough on her - especially with the kids. Again, you really do have to be there if/when things really crumble - so focus on staying strong. Treat yourself and your kids well. That's all you can really do during this time. My thoughts and prayers are with you, but you already know that :-)

Rick - my previous response was too abrupt. One thing I keep trying to communicate to my wife is that I am here for her and I will not abandon her. Hopefully, she'll remember that if/when she wants to communicate. You're getting a lot more communication than I am, even if it's inconsistent, it's an opportunity for you to show your stuff. Keep up the good work.<P>Tonight, I may have some communication opportunity. We're all (me, wife, son, au pair) going with my son's 7th grade class to dinner and then to Ford's Theatre for "A Christmas Carol." We haven't spoke directly since she talked to Steve, so I don't really know what to expect.<P>WAT

Dear Rick,<P>Sounds like things are going as well as can be expected at this state. Your W sounds like she will need to totally crash to come out of the fog. The hard part for you will be to let her do it. It is hard to "sit back" and watch someone who you love crash. I can lend a little voice of experience here, though. <P>My H has been coming in and out of the fog for the last 2 months. His out of the fog experiences coincided with extreme stress points (being in charge of his first big trial, having to tell the kids about us, suicide of a friend). Each time, I was there with welcoming arms and meeting him more than half way. I think I was a crutch for him -- I made him stronger and then he felt like he could continue what he was doing and back into the fog he went. I felt like I was actually facilitating him leaving us and becoming comfortable on his own!<P>I finally realized this and the next time he came out of the fog, I told him that I loved him, I was ready and willing to work on the marriage, but I couldn't jump in with both feet without a total 100% commitment from him. He acknowledged that that was fair. He has been seeing a new counselor (on his own) and been doing some deeper thinking about this situation than at any time before. I really feel that I have to give him room to make his decision on his own without it being caused by an external crisis.<P>I too wonder about being able to rebuild a relationship after all this pain. We BSs submerge out hurt and anger, in a way, to do the Plan A thing, but those feelings would have to be dealt with in recovery for sure! I guess the way I look at it is one problem at a time. We'll all worry about that when the time comes.<P>Keep doing what you are doing. It may be like water on the stone with your W, but every time she calls or sounds unhappy, let that give you renewed strength and sense of purpose. <P>I'll continue to pray for your kids, especially. It is hard to see them have to deal with such an ugly situation at an age where everything should still be only happy for them! Hang tough!

Exhausted - I've been remiss in not showing you my gratitude for your good wisdom to me and to the others in similar situation, like Rick. I hope sometime I can help you as much.<P>WAT

Dear Rick,<P>I think you wife is awaken to the reality that her present lifestyle is only rosy for OM; the children and others involved are not whole anymore. Something is missing from all of you. It will take a while more before she comes out of the fog and probably some time longer since she has gotten this place.<P>I know it is sad to have to wait this out but I applaud your strength and courage in the face of such difficulties.<P>Your children can only benefit from your strong character.<P>God Bless You<BR>take care<BR>from weep<P>PS I agree that Exhausted's advice is always timely and wise and insightful - thanks again Exhausted.

Just wanted to let you know that I read all the replies, and appreciate every one of them. I'm OK, but of course feel awful for the kids. However, when I have them I spend really quality time with them, and enjoy every minute of being with them. I pick them up tomorrow .

Rick, <P>I think this really sounds promising. At the very least, reality isn't just setting in, it's crashing in.<P>I'm sorry that your children seem to be having a problem adjusting to all this, but it sounds like you are handling things well by being a strong and consistent presence.<P>Stick with your Hybrid Plan A. Friendly, caring, but living your life. Like everyone said, it's really hard, but she's got to crash and burn to totally come out of this fog and see it all for the mistake that it was.

Rick37,<P>Just want to encourage you. As the others have said, things are becoming clearer to your wife, the consequences of her actions, and the reality of an involvement with this OM. <P>It touches my heart that your son is experiencing this pain. We have an 11 year old boy, and I have hung in this long because I can't face the pain in his eyes if I have to tell him his father and I are splitting up. I don't know how much longer I can continue, though. <P>Reality is hitting for your wife. She has to face that her son is rejecting her for abandoning the family, that he is hurt and disgusted. What can the OM offer that can make this look like a good idea? The excitement of an affair? That will fade.<P><P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Rick - I'm listening for a crash from up north, and I don't mean from Santa's workshop! How 'bout an update?<P>You're in the grove, you've hit your stride - your kids and the holidays are you biggest assets (outside of youself) right now. Pull at those heart strings through the holidays and big progress should be yours.<P>WAT

I'm with WAT, Rick.<P>Tell us how things are? Any new strides in your W realizing life is more a bed of thorns than roses without you and the kids????<P>I read this post ... and Rick, you're doing a great job! Please hang in there and stay consistent in our W's eyes.<P>Love,<BR>Jo

Well, thanks for the additional replies. There isn't alot new here. Same tone in her voice. Sounds annoyed to me most of the time. This morning, she called me an hour before my sons concert, which we were attending together. Wondered if I'd like to go with her and D downtown to pick up something for her work, "just for the ride". I said OK, and went. Mistake. She was just in her annoyed, snippy, quiet mood. I have nothing to say to her these days, because her life is something I don't know about (so she thinks), and she isn't talkative. Plus I spend too much time thinking about stuff when I'm with her. Anyway, she criticized me a couple of times, and I snapped back once. Bit of an LB, but I can only take so much. Moral of that story is I'm saying no next time. Better to stay away I think.<P>I sense that she is better with the kids at her own place then she was when living here and being out all the time. Also, my kids don't like the idea of going there, but when they are there, it seems that they are fine. The transition seems to get them. Don't know what they say there though.<P>This annoyed tone is something that developed over time in the past year, was up/down during the A before she moved out, but lately as you know, just down for the most part. Sometimes I think it must be me, but then I kick myself and think that it isn't. I find it hard to be cheery around her in that mood, so I think I need to minimize time spent with each other. Make sense?<P>I do know that she is planning on something new years eve, at a hotel, where she has to wear her favorite dress. I'm assuming it is her and OM, even though she calls it "a bunch" of people.<P>I get disgruntled inside when I hear these things, but have to remember that this isn't going to sort itself out in a week. I know I'll be OK, but it is those times when I sense things could change, and they don't, that gets to me. And of course the kids situation is so sad. Oh well, you play with the cards you are dealt, and make the best.

Dear Rick,<P>It's hard to settle in and wait isn't it? I think we are right in telling ourselves we have to go on with our life, but we really can't go too far when we are waiting like this. I think those little signs of hope cut both ways -- they give us strength to continue, but also get us down when they don't pan out into the big turn around that we want. Still, it is better to have them than not, right?<P>I think the transitions are hard on the kids. My little boys seem to do O.K. when they are with H, but when they come home, they have been a litle out of sorts. My 2 year old is panicky if he thinks I'm going somewhere without him. If my H and I are somewhere with the kids, the 2 year old starts crying if he thinks I'm not going to be in the car with him. He has also been asking for me to sleep in his crib with him! The professionals I have talked to say that for small kids, the issue isn't so much how much they see the WS, but how often they transition between households. You know how important routine is to them at this age. Routine=security. That's why our situations stink for the kids!!!!!!<P>Stay strong and control the things you can. You will always be able to look back at this time, no matter what the future holds, and be proud of your efforts as a loving husband and a great father!

Exhausted,<P>Thanks for your thoughts. I was wondering if the professionals you talked to said that transitioning too much was bad...sounds like it from your post. Ours transition alot now, because of my wife's work schedule and the custody arrangement we have created that accommodates it.

Dear Rick,<P>I am certainly no expert myself, but my lawyers, the 2 different counselors I've seen, and the information I have read indicate that the transitions can be tough on young kids. I'm guessing yours are like most in that they love things to be the same. The sameness, or the routine, gives them a sense of security because they can then predict things in a world they still are only beginning to understand. A lot of transitioning can take away from that sense of security by always keeing them a little off balance. No matter how hard you try, the rules, the atmosphere etc. are going to be different in the 2 households.<P>When I told my lawyer that I had suggested that my H see the kids 2 nights a week (but back here for bedtime) and every other weekend, he and his associate almost fell off the chair because they thought that was too much transitioning for young kids. I had to convince them that H was a really good daddy and the kids needed to see him that much!<P>I do know that every situation is different so I don't mean to scare you or pretend I have the answers. I'm an at-home mom and my kids have lived in this house since birth and my H works a lot of hours and travels a fair amount. All these things argue for me to have the kids here a great majority of the time. <P>You have a different situation, obviously, and your kids are probably more used to transitions in general than mine. To make it all the more difficult, we also have to make sure that we don't use the kids as a LB, but yet stand up for what we think is best. Did I already say this all stinks?<P>As always, good luck!

Thanks again Exhausted. And yes, this certainly does stink doesn't it. I'm getting a bit concerned about what this is doing to my kids sense of balance and stability. My 2 year old woke up tonight and asked when Mommy will be home. I had to say that Mommy is at her house. I hate that. My almost 5 year old asked the other day how long is mommy going to live at the other house. I had to say I don't know, but it is like that for now.<P>Our initial plan that revolved around my wife's rather odd work schedule was OK, but with the odd business trip thrown in for me, and the odd abnormality in her schedule, the kids we're just with my wife for 2 nights, now back with me for 2, then back to her place for 2, just because of circumstantial stuff in our lives. I don't like it at all. I get angry at my wife when I think about it...for causing all this. I'm sure you know the feeling.<P>Tonight I ordered 3 books about separation/divorce and the effects on children. Your comment about transition got me going on this because it described our situation. It is a good thing you said it, because I should be reading more about the effects on children anyway, so thanks.<P>If I could only win the lottery, I'd be a stay at home dad, and things would get much easier. I better buy a ticket tomorrow.<P>I appreciate your insight and support. Is your H still out of the fog?