<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K:<BR><B>If you don't have the intestinal foritude for Plan A and Plan B---fine. But then get lost---and go post on a divorce board somewhere. Or offer a constructive solution. You're not doing much of a service here.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I totally agree. This is one of the most unconstructive posts I've ever seen on this forum, in almost a year of participation. Preaching that one should break up a family to prove that you aren't afraid to borders on sadistic behavior, particularly on a board designed to support people suffering through marital discord.<P>I won't flame away, as eagerly requested, I'll just say it is sad that an outstanding venue like this allows incredibly destructive posts like this without censor or lockout.<P>Mike <BR>

Now, now guys! We are talking about subject matter that is very personal and highly flammable. <P>The sight is about marriage building, on that I'd think we all agree. Though this site espouses a certain way to rebuild marriages, that in most peoples opinion, works very well, there are other paths that are equally helpful and productive. They deserve to be brought out in the open, so that individuals can pick and chose what they think might work best for them. This is a public forum and we DO NOT all have to agree. However, we should show tolerance and respect.<P>FA 's post should have offered a suggestion, so that it could have either been accepted or rejected by McBroon. We know FA and K disagree. However I'd hope that that disagreement would continue by starting a post of it's own.<P>K, I have to ask you something,with all due respect. POJA means coming to a decision where by both spouses can be enthusiastic. Can you honestly say that you could be "enthusiastic" about ANY contact between W and OM? Could you be enthusiastic about her calling and seeing him to any degree? I believe there are some things that are absolutely NON-NEGOTIABLE. I think FA feels the same way. I don't think any one opinion is any more right or wrong than another, they are simply different, as we all are. As for intestinal fortitude........there can be many more reasons why a person choses to stay with a strict Harley Plan A and Plan B than the amount of intestinal fortitude thay possess.<P>Both of you, your comments are out of line.

mthrrhbard:<P>This is a site about MarriageBuilder's. It's NOT a public forum, per se. It's provided by the Harley's, and maintained by them. When you log in, you agree to abide by the use guidelines. And while I very much encourage the discussion of ALL types of "marriage-building" discussions that center around different philosophies (Carder, Weiner-Davis, Smalley, Dobson, etc.), I don't believe that FA was truly interested in that. He seemed to be interested more in trotting out a tired argument that we've discussed several times before (on threads of their own), and trolling for a contrary response. I'm happy to "give" it to him---I'll apologize for telling him to "get lost", but I'll stand behind the rest of my post.<P>Regarding your question on the POJA: I was a bit brief when I suggested it to McBroon. Ideally, you would use the POJA to negotiate whether or not your wife would meet the OM. And if she was "on board" with the use of the POJA---that visit would never happen (unless you thought it was OK---and you're right, there aren't many spouses who would be enthusaistic).<P>Steve Harley early on taught me how to apply the POJA in a "one-sided" approach, to curb thoughtless behavior and lovebusters, while I was dealing with my wife's affair. It basically was "do not gain at your wife's expense". So---there is no room for selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts when you're dealing with an affair. Just when all that stuff would (seemingly) come in mighty handy... <P>McBroon is handling this situation pretty well in line with Harley's "Plan A" guidelines. He's let his wife know in no uncertain terms that he does NOT approve of the affair. That he doesn't approve of the visits. That it's killing his love for her. He's doing that as thoughfully as possible, without lovebusting. As far as making these "visits" non-negotiable---there's no way to stop her if she wants to go (short of a dungeon). So then the question is how to triage this incredibly damaging behavior in a way that helps insure that McBroon survives, and that his marriage has the best chance of surviving.<P>

I'll just say that each of us tends to reflect our experiences when we post. If one has had a successful experience, one does tend to be a bit more optimistic. If your experience hasn't been as successful, more negativity comes thru. That is normal in discussing any topic, let alone one so volatile. <P>And, here we have McBroon, who doesn't know yet whether his efforts will end up bearing fruit or not...an incredibly painful place to be. Just for the record, McBroon, I think you are doing a good job, and I agree that if you still love your wife and want the marriage, you are in the right place. K has incredibly good advice, and has been there. <P>My situation was never as dire as yours, but I do know that when I found out my H was deeply "in-love" with someone else I questionned why I stayed. And I had one friend (of 2 I told...I kept things pretty quiet)who told me how unfair his fence-sitting was (true), and how I should kick him out. Now that things have worked out well, she tells me she realizes it took more strength to stay than it would have to leave. Don't let anyone second-guess what you feel is right for you...no one else is wearing your shoes!<P>Hang in there--<P>Kathi<P>

Mcbroon,<P>I am a bit late getting in here and may be repeating things that have already been said ( I glanced over some of the replies but did not read them thouroughly ).<BR>I think that for your own sanity and self respect you need to let T know that what she is doing is not only disrepectful to you but also to your marriage and your families ( and the OM and his famliy - the affects of an affair are FAR REACHING ). You need to do this in a loving and kind way ( no LB's ... saying how you feel is not an LB, it is how you say it ). You also need to let her know that you don't approve of any continued contact and although may at times not say anything - you still do not approve. <P>Plan A is NOT about letting your spouse walk all over you - it IS about become a better and stronger YOU!!!!<P>Remember that although you can't control what T does ( she may sneak around or even see the OM out in the open ) you can tell her that you are not in the postition of wanting to share her with anybody else (nor should you be ).<P>Let her know ( again ) how sorry you are for your past transgressions and how willing you are to work on your marriage and your future together - for both of you and your girls.<P>Let her know that you love her, that you want to be her husband and want her to be your wife.<P>She may not seem to respond in a postive way at first ( she probably can't while still in a realtionship with OM ) but it will be stored away in her databanks for future refrences.<P>Anyway, just a few thoughts I had on your subject...I hope it helps.<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <P><p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited January 09, 2001).]

K & Mike C2 - I will stand by my post. I am sorry if you didn't agree with what was posted, but that is your right, just as it is my right to state on this <B>public</B> forum that I disagree with some of the things that are written here, whether they are Harlyisms or not. If neither of you mind negotiating the terms and conditions, with the wheres and the hows of your wives'affairs, then so be it, but I find that taking the concepts of the POJA and negotiating a little to the extreme, and if that is not having fortitude, then again, that is your opinion.<P>As far as offering a suggestion, I didn't think that I needed to offer a suggestion. I gave my opinion as to what I was seeing being written and left it up to McBroon to take from it what he wanted or to disregard what he wanted, to simply give him something to think about other than what he was previously being told to do. <P>Despite the fact that is marriagebuilders, there are times when it's time to move on and neither you or me can tell someone when that time is, but what's wrong with getting <B>ALL</B> the opinions out there, even if they run contrary to the Harley's?<P>McBroon, I don't know anything about your fortitude, but despite efforts to silence those that disagree with their opinions, there are some things that you really need to think about. Are the things that are taking place right now going to be too much for you to overcome down the road? If not, then continue doing what you are and good luck.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by F A:<BR><B>K & Mike C2 - I will stand by my post. I am sorry if you didn't agree with what was posted, but that is your right, just as it is my right to state on this public</B> forum that I disagree with some of the things that are written here, whether they are Harlyisms or not.<P>This isn't usenet or a true public forum. This is a MarriageBuilders forum, launched and owned by the Harleys, designed to help those who have questions about working within the MarriageBuilders principles. <P>People come here at the lowest point of their lives, many times, seeking guidance within the MarriageBuilders program on how to salvage their families. Harley's writings are very clear on how to handle the discovery of an affair, your opinions run totally counter to his counsel.<P>Your post is the equivalent of yelling "jump!" to someone on a window ledge.<P>Mike<P> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mike C2 (edited January 10, 2001).]

MikeC2 and K,<P>I've just been following this and it appears that neither of you read or maybe just don't remember the "Rules, Policies and Disclaimers" section. I suggest you might want to re-read it. I've never seen anything on this board that restricts it to the Harley's methods. That would be counter-productive for them as well. This thread is starting to go down the same road as the D&D board where a self-appointed "censor" user decided to impose his own values on everyone else.<P>Criticize the content of the post if you want, it's a free country, an open board(within the posted guidelines) and there is learning in *ALL* posts whether positive or negative. Please leave content governance to the moderators(those selected for this job).<P>My one cent....<P>BTW Mike, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Click Here To View Today's Active Topics (all <B>public</B> forums)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This came from the main forum selection page(boldfacing mine)...<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited January 10, 2001).]

Certainly, I think anyone has the right to post an opinion. And, everyone should take the background <B>behind</B> the opinion in mind when deciding for themselves how seriosly to take each poster. <P>I lurk more than I post, but have noticed that the most successful posters in regaining their spouses love are often those who follow the MB plan, so I tend to place more weight behind their opinions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Heartpain:<BR><B>Criticize the content of the post if you want, it's a free country, an open board(within the posted guidelines) and there is learning in *ALL* posts whether positive or negative.</B><P>The page that we all click on going through to the forums makes it clear that these forum are for those with questions, comments or suggestions about Harley's Basic Concepts.<P>I'm not saying that constructive input on other methods isn't appropriate. I myself have directed people to other marital resources on occasion. But I didn't read FAs post as constructive in any way, and that was my criticism. It was mean-spirited taunting, saying that people that fought to save their marriages in the face of infidelity were, in effect, cowards. If you think that is appropriate on a board designed to help people in emotional distress, you are entitled to your opinion. <P>I suppose if serving as a bad example is a benefit of free speech, that was a great post. But I think people come here for exactly what the opening page promises, advice within the Harley method and Basic Concepts. Advice counter to that should be pointed out immediately. <BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by F A:<BR><B>If neither of you mind negotiating the terms and conditions, with the wheres and the hows of your wives'affairs, then so be it,</B><P>I don't think anyone had a problem with that statement. It was the following one that I thought was highly irresponsible in this venue:<P>""I really have to wonder if saving a marriage is the real reason why so many people here put up with the SH** that they do. It seems to me that fear, the fear of being alone, the fear that no one else will want them, the fear of change, is the real reason why people allow themselves to be disrespected, run over, treated as less than human, and then disguise it as the WS being in a "fog", or that their "religion" hates divorce or some other "justification" for being a doormat, and yes I mean being a doormat."""<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike C2:<BR><B>[QUOTE]But I didn't read FAs post as constructive in any way, and that was my criticism. It was mean-spirited taunting, saying that people that fought to save their marriages in the face of infidelity were, in effect, cowards.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well it seems to me that you misinterpreted what I said. I didn't call anyone a coward for fighting to save their marriage in the face of infidelity, how could I say anything like that when in fact that is what I am doing <P>Mike you disagree with what I posted, and you have the right, but please don't let your emotions get the best of you and put words in my mouth. <P>I don't believe that the people here are cowards, but I do question some of the justifications that I see here for why some people do what they do. Questioning some of the rationales or justifications of some of things that I have seen written is not meant to be taunting. I also believe that if you were being honest with yourself, you would have to agree that there are some people here that are afraid of being alone, or afraid that they may never find anyone else, and that is why they do what they do. To point that out was not meant to taunt anyone, it was meant to give <B>some</B> people something to think about, maybe, just maybe, some people are in situations where those fears are legitimate fears and they need to be faced head on. <P>Lastly, I don't believe that negotiating the times and places of one's spouse in meeting with the OP is what a marriage is all about, I have a hard time believing going to this extreme in regards to negotiating or following the POJA is based upon the love of a spouse. In my own humble opinion, it is based upon a lot more than love, and fear is probably one of the reasons.<P>Sorry if an opinion or a truth other than yours offends you.<p>[This message has been edited by F A (edited January 10, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F A:<BR><B> I didn't call anyone a coward for fighting to save their marriage in the face of infidelity,</B> <P>I don't know how to answer that other than to again point you to your own words, which clearly question the courage of people fighting to save their marriage in the face of infidelity by saying the the "real reason" is fear:<P>""I really have to wonder if saving a marriage is the real reason why so many people here put up with the SH** that they do. It seems to me that fear, the fear of being alone, the fear that no one else will want them, the fear of change, is the real reason why people allow themselves to be disrespected, run over, treated as less than human, and then disguise it as the WS being in a "fog", or that their "religion" hates divorce or some other "justification" for being a doormat, and yes I mean being a doormat."""<P>You can call these people doormats or question whether they are motivated by fear, but I think the brave thing to do is to stay and fight.<P><B>Lastly, I don't believe that negotiating the times and places of one's spouse in meeting with the OP is what a marriage is all about, .</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, it isn't what marriage is all about. But it may be a short term bitter pill to swallow while you work toward getting back to a relationship that does resemble what marriage is all about.<P>Anyway, I'm signing off on this dialogue. It isn't helpful to the person that started this thread. I would just ask that you try to have some sensitivity to support the people that are going through hard times here and trying to save their families using the Harley methods. 99.9% of the posters on these boards do just that, and I think it is a great and helpful community here. But one bad piece of advice can be all it takes to ruin someones life.<BR>

Interesting. <P>I've had many conversations with F A in the past and he has always been honest and intelligent and thinks deeply before he speaks. I consider him a friend. Tho admittedly I don't think what works for him would work for me--I think I know where he's coming from. We've had lots of disagreements and bantering but things never got this ugly. <P>He's a big proponent of free speech and he can talk circles around <I>me</I> so I won't even try disuading him from his theories!<P>I just wanted to say that if something works for you, I say, run with it.<P>So F A, if your philosophy is working for you and your marriage--you know I would only be so happy for you. Only I have no idea if it is. Is it? Do you feel like you're getting somewhere in recovery? <P>It's been a while, and I've always wondered... <P>How are you?<P>Leilana

Well folks, that was interesting. If i was to cut out the arguing bit, it was quite insightful.<P>Basically, the bottom line appears to be that I should & have Plan A'd and put up with as much as I can for as long as I am able. May I re-cap?<P>I have explained how much her continuing the affair is hurting me, and that it is depleteing my love for her every day.<P>I have poured my heart out about the regret i feel for my past, and the hopes i had for our future.<P>She knows, that if she commits to me again, I am prepared to start again, as if we were two new people, having learned from mistakes.<P>I have also toled her that if it is to end, please can we end it quickly and move on.<P>Since my last post, here's what's happened.....<P>I've ben Plan Aing my little heart out, trying to negotiate out the visits, texting, conversations, wearing of gifts, with some (but not much) success. Last Tuesday, she came after being with him (at about 1.45am in the morning)to find me on the computer in a chat room. She blew up, phoned the OM, and went off with him 4 the night. I was gutted, took a long look at all the things she had done, and decided i couldn't take any more.<P>When she came home the next day, I told her it was over and I wated a divorce. I've done my best, but the pain was too great and I don't want to waste any more of our lives.<P>The prblem now is that I don't want to leave my kids. We have both said we want to stay in the house (she won't go to her lover), and I won't go to my mums. The solicitors have told us that as she doesn't work, she has the right to stay in the house indefinately, and I have to pay 4 everything.<P>It's a right mess, her folks have cut her off, we are "seperated", but living together, and trying not to argue. Does anyone have any suggestions?<P>On the arguing bit above - it was actually quite helpful. I beleive in the concept of Plan A & Plan B, the POJA etc. but my heart wasn't in it anymore. I think sometimes perhaps the best course of action is to get out. You can't always get what you want, and it takes 2 to make a mariage work. Maybe the committment wasn't really there from me, I don't know, otherwise wouldn't I have been plan Aing even now?<P>I intend to keep on Plan A'ing while I'm with her, who knows, maybe she'll suddenly say the right things, but I'm going to my solicitor to find out how to move forward towards divorce.<P>Will keep you posted, as I'll maybe still need help.<P>Even after all that's happened,

First of all, I'm so sincerely sorry for all your pain, Mc. Having to deal with a WS while you KNOW an A is ongoing goes beyond using "nightmare" as a description. <P>But some things popped out at me in your post that I'd like to point out if I may. This in no way makes my sympathy for you and your crisis any less!<BR> <BR><B> "I've ben Plan Aing my little heart out...</B> <BR> <BR><B>...have toled her that if it is to end, please can we end it quickly and move on."</B><P>This is not plan Aing.<P><BR><B> " Last Tuesday, she came in...to find me on the computer in a chat room."</B><P>And, depending upon the chat room and who you were chatting with, THIS is not plan Aing. According to your W's reaction, it's LBing.<P><B> "She blew up, phoned the OM, and went off with him 4 the night."</B><P>Of course this is inexcusable behavior on her part. Not to diminish that in anyway, have you considered that she thought you might be up to your "previous ways" again and used that as an excuse to "take" more for herself again? She's already in "Taker" mode, it really doesn't take a whole lot to push her back into a relationship that is so totally fantasy based. (She is in love with the fantasy, you know, not really the man.)<P><B>"I beleive in the concept of Plan A & Plan B, the POJA etc. but my heart wasn't in it anymore."</B> <P>If you were in a chat room as well as telling your W you would want a quick divorce, how much were you showing her that you guys have a chance?<P>Like I've told F A in another post, the concept of Plan A was tough for me. I would vascillate between overdoing it and underdoing it. Gave too much to and expecting too much from my H. <P>* When I finally got it right, I felt such confidence in myself and strength and self esteem, as well as the love for my H. It was more a feeling of knowing what I needed to do for my marriage to have a healthy chance, and not for what I "deserved" or "could not take anymore" from my H. *<P>Does this make any kind of sense? <P>You have every right to make the decision you seem to be moving towards. God bless you and keep you strong no matter what you decide, Mc. But I have a real big problem with those who would say they are plan A'ing and then go directly to divorce without trying the Plan B. (Did you ever get that copy of SAA? Federal express should have gotten it to you by now!)<P>Believe me, I observed one man (a BS) do exactly what you're doing, Mc. He did an imperfect plan A (with occasional, but his W perceived as MAJOR, LB's) then he got so disgusted with her and his lack of results, he moved directly towards divorce. He remains bitter, vengeful, spiteful and I believe he's poisioning himself as well as his two little boys that he has custody of. This could be you! I don't want it to be. <P>His plan A was to get his W away from the OM and to get her to love him again. It wasn't about fixing the problems they had had within the marriage. It wasn't about the hurts she perceived she endured in the past (namely an abortion he forced her to have before they married, his continued visit to online porn sites, chat rooms, etc. And it wasn't about building on the one need she said she craved--real communication.<P>BTW, the chat rooms with other people <B>REALLY</B> hurt <I>BECAUSE</I> this was her #1 need. He was <I>giving</I> his innermost thoughts and feelings away to strangers and <I>keeping</I> it from her.<BR> <BR>If he had only done this, she told me they would have had a chance.<P>She did stay with him for several months but felt compelled to be near OM to keep having her needs met and fill the empty spot she perceived she has in her relationship with her H.<P>Had the OM left the scene, she would only have looked around for a replacement OM.<P>Those things your W resents about you, seem so small to you, but the list plays like a tape in her head. It's what tips the scales in favor of ANY OM.<P>"I intend to keep on Plan A'ing...but I'm going...to move forward towards divorce."<P>Could you please describe plan A, Mc? Because that statment sure ain't it!<P>It's not being a doormat (Giving to the extent you are diminished), and it's not talking about divorce (Taking--only for your benefit).<P>If you could manage a real separation, you might be able to do a wonderful Plan B after a doing a "true" but albeit short (according to your ability) plan A. I am totally for Plan B in that instance.<P>Personally, that's what I would do.<P>I am not placing blame on any of your positive efforts, which sounded wonderful, by the way--what I am going (on and on!) about is your grasp of the process. <P>You are dealing with a totally irrational person (in an "affair" fog) and expecting rational reactions from her. You will not get that. Not yet. Remember when I said she is basically mentally incompetent? You may not get anything but a few positive crumbs from her for a while. <P>You are the director of this Plan A/B show.<P> You're wife cannot comprehend the rules. <P>What you are aiming at is saving <B>your marriage</B>, it isn't about getting your emotional needs met, eventually you will and you deserve to but you're not at that point in the process yet. <P> Some call this being a doormat. If you do it for the wrong reasons, then you're doing it incorrectly then, yes, I guess you are being a doormat. You can tell because your strength can be instantly and easily drained. You make decisions based on a single action by your W that seems to be "the final straw". <P> But if you do it,<P>and are doing it right...<P>and realize that this hell is <B>temporary</B>...<P>that you will be ok with our without her and just want to give your marriage/family a chance...<P>that you can make positive, concientious decisions rather than reactive, angry or desperate ones...<P>is that being a doormat? <BR> <BR>Or is that strength? Assertiveness? Pure enlightened genius? <P>Aloha,<P>L<P> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by Leilana (edited January 14, 2001).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by McBroon:<BR><B>When she came home the next day, I told her it was over and I wated a divorce. I've done my best, but the pain was too great and I don't want to waste any more of our lives.</B><P>What was her reaction?<P>I think that rather than just going to a divorce, you may want to read up on Plan b. I don't have an answer for your financial and housing logistics....I think it is unfortunate that so often those realities hampers the strategy of Plan Bs that otherwise might be effective in saving love and leaving options open.<P>I don't know how you could woerk a Plan B, unless you maybe agree to "split the house, with each taking half a week, and staying elsewhere for the other half.<P>You are in the UK, right? what are the marital laws like there? What are you looking at if you decide to go that route?<P>I'm sorry, and I don't blame you a bit. I hope she at least noted a change in you during Plan A....that would be important.<P>Mike<BR> <BR>

Mike, I think that you're right, and that finances often hamper one's ability to effectively initiate Plan B. What if you are a stay-at-home W with children to take care of? If there is no separation agreement in place stipulating who gets to live in the home, jointly owned by the couple, how is this W going to move out on her own? <P>As a career woman, I was fortunate to be in the financial position to effectuate Plan B. But not too many people are in my shoes. <P>belld

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by belldandy:<BR><B>Mike, I think that you're right, and that finances often hamper one's ability to effectively initiate Plan B. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wish their were a simple answer. In this case, as in so many, divorce is being contemplated by the BS, so obviouslt the realities of living arrangements and caring for the children will hacve to be arrived at some how. <P>I don't know what Harley would say. The answers would vary from case to case, whether it is to go stay with family, dig into savings, or what have you. And local family law has to be taken into consideration, as well as making sure you are not surrendering any rights by leaving the house.<P>But I'll say this. I suspect that Harley would say that one of the most common errors made on this board is people hanging on to Plan A until their love is dead, rather than properly moving onto Plan B as the program calls for. <P>