I think we are headed for disaster. My H was put on meds for depression< Zoloft. But he continues to douse this antidepressant with the depressant of alcohol. He drinks so much now. He slowed down for a while, but it didn't last four days.<P>Our therapist sees no alternative than having him enter into a rehabilitation facility. The fact remains, that he is afraid of things in his life right now(MLC) and he is in love with an OW(another symtom), he cannot make ANY decisions and is slipping further into depression. He is now starting to step on the boundries I have been setting(like calling the Bch from our house!!) He wants to hide in his drink and not take the effort to deal with the mess of a life he has created. He will not let go of any of his security blankets. The woman, the booze, but he can hold life at bay forever if this keeps up. To have the capacity to come out of the fog, he must STOP drinking.<P>His drinking has contributed to years of problems: not being to communicate with his feelings well(now not at all), no great advancement in work in 8 years(20 years with company), no decent raises, no guts to stand up for himself at work to get those raises, thus he feels a failure because we can no longer live on what he makes now. He feels the stress of being 39 with no provisions for the future what so ever, cannot afford our own vacations, we wait for monetary gifts from my parents for extras. We cannot even afford our own marital therapy! My mom paid for that! Now he feels a failure at marriage!(The A)<P>I do not work, but use college money to cover overdrafts which accur at about 700 bucks a month. <B>I</B>was planning to use that for MY retirement, since he has not started one yet. I have now taken care of my personal debt, but his debt remains with no way to pay for it except refinancing the house for the third time, again losing all equity!! <P>I am so tired of holding the bag. He needs to see that we are not going to make it if he does not seek another, better paying job. I also must go to work after all these years, yet many say not to in case he divorces me, then i will receive more benefits. I'm not sure what to do, there.<P>Bottom line: He needs to stop drinking. To do this she recommends I move to plan A--<B>outside the home.</B> Set a boundry about no drinking in the home, and no contacting the OW at home--protecting our home for our kids' sake. Even though the seperation will be hard on them too. She wants me to start preparing them very soon.<P>I am so scared. Has anyone else successfully dealt with the alcohol before making even the first step?(Getting rid of the OW) It is 6 months now, and he has not budged. He just sits and blanks out his life. Therapist says I have to let him deal with it himself so I do not go down with him. But he must do it away from the children so they do not learn this self-destructive behavior. My son already knows, though. He was in therapy at the age of 5. He will probably need to go back after H leaves the house. <P>I HATE ALL THIS!!! It is so painful and draining!!! My poor babies!! I have a lot of anger over his ruination. This is not the man I married. This is some weak kid who cannot control himself and is forfeiting his family for his selfish indulgences. At least mine only involve eating!! I forgive but can I forget? Hum.....<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am so scared. Has anyone else successfully dealt with the alcohol before making even the first step?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Burned,<BR>My situation was different in that my first marriage broke up over my addiction to narcotics and alcohol, but I can tell you that I was unable to succesfully straighten up any area of my life till I got off the drugs. After I did my whole life changed for the better. <P>In your post it's clear you know what needs to be done. Your H is sick and needs help. His alcoholism is his most serious problem, and absolutely must be addressed before you can reasonably expect any real progress in your marriage. The "fog" we speak of in WSs is nothing compared to the denial system of the addict. He cannot face reality till he gets sober! It's tough, but if you are supportive without enabling him to continue to drink, you may find that the other problems will take care of themselves. Good luck. You can get over this. I got clean 14 years ago, and have had a wonderful life. Even with a WS I think I'm lucky to have my life. I hope things work out for your family.<BR>Dave

While David offers encouragement, my experience with an alocholic spouse (my first husband) was that there was nothing I could do to get himto stop drinkiing. It was a decision he had to make for himself. I divorced him because he was using his alcoholism as an excuse NOT to quit drinking "I can't stop so why should I try?" to which I responded "Why should I stay?".<P>I left him and it was the best thing I could have done for both of us AND for my son. Yes, my son suffered because of the divorce but I think he would have suffered more if I had stayed in that marriage.<P>My X has finally quit drinking but not until we both had moved on in our lives for several years. I have no regrets about the divorce. My biggest regret is that I married him in the first place.<P>So, in my opinion, dealing with an alcoholic paints a bleak picture. Yes, he can stop drinking, but only if/when he wants to. You do need to prepare for what will happen if he decides not to.<P>David makes a good point about being supportive without being enabling. I never found a way to do that, but maybe others have and can offer suggestions. Perhaps Al-A-Non would be a good resource.

It sucks. I know exactly what you're going through. My H is a recovering cocaine addict and alcoholic, and our marriage was in shambles until he quit the drugs and the booze. Drugs impair your judgment, and they render both of you powerless to do any rebuilding of your marriage.<P>The alcohol and the OW are escapes for him, plain and simple. He's afraid to face his family, he's afraid to face his situation, he's afraid to face <I>life</I>. <P>I hate to say it, but he has to do this on his own. You can't educate him - he is oblivious to everything except himself at this stage, and if he's like my H, he's going to have to hit rock bottom to wake up. Let him know that you love him, but that you're not going to enable him. He has to do this on his own, and the absolute first steps are for him to give up his addictions for alcohol and the OW. <P>Work on yourself in the meantime, and prepare yourself for either scenario. You have to know that there is nothing that you can do to <I>make</I> him give up his drinking - he has to do it on his own. I know how badly it hurts and how powerless you feel, but there's nothing you can do about it, hon.<P>I'll pray for you and your husband's recovery. Best of luck.<P>Ali

Your situation sounds very painful and frightening to me, but it also seems clear to me what your path should be -- follow the therapist's advice. I know that it is easy when you are outside of a situation to recommend a "hard line" and if it were just you being affected, it might not seem so clear to me. But you have to think about your kids too. It sounds like a very destructive situation for them. It would undoubtedly be tough to have him leave, but at least your goal would be for him to get the help he needs and eventually come back to your family. <P>In a way, everyone's needs coincide. You need to protect yourself and the kids financially and emotionally by having him gone for awhile, and him being gone for awhile may well be the only way for him to wake up and stop the alcohol and OW.<P>Having said all that, I truly do not underestimate how hard it will be for you to make that decision. You'd have to deal with it feeling like you are giving up or being mean etc. Make sure you have your support (financial and emotional) in place before taking the step. Then you should figure out how you are going to communicate you reasons and goals to your H. Even if you do it verbally, I would suggest also putting it in writing so he can re-read it as he hopefully makes progress against the alcohol problem, and then the A.<P>My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your kids in dealing with this tough situation!

My marriage started this way. OW symptom of drug and alcohol use. I didn't use. She did. <BR>No amount of asking, deal making or begging can make him quit unless he wants to. Bottoming out is usually the only way to get someone like that to get help. I left and I was pregnant. I told him you need a place to live. I am going home. He went to rehab. The A was terminated and he came home. Hes been sober since. <BR>Alcoholism is an ugly thing to raise children around. Dad being gone for a while is better than a drunk dad. I can only tell you what I did and would do. That would be to tell him to leave and not come back until he is straight. He will drag you down with him if you don't.<BR>I'm sorry that you have to deal with two very difficult issues at once. You must be a strong woman.<P>cleo

Thanks everyone.<P>Exhausted-what do you mean get it all in order before I take the step? Write him a letter? AND tell verbally? Do I need to see a lawyer? I am SCARED, but I do not want to be stupid about this. I have no family to advise me who is in proximity. Please elaborate.<P>I really appreciate all everyone hs to say. My H is afraid of life, and a MLC on top, and an OW on top of that? He has so much shame and guilt AND he cannot face any of it. I do need to ask him to move, I think, I have looked up Alnon meetings in the area-they also tell me of AA meeting that correspond. <P>I want to protect my children, I have to stand up for all of us, very codependent of me, but they are not aware to do it for them selves. I am also going to call their therapist and warn him that they may be coming back into his schedule. Any more advice for the weary?<P>

AA has a couples meeting. See if you can find one in your area that he will attend. Has he even agreed to attend? Does he know anyone with sobriety that can sponsor him or that you can get to help get him to a meeting or treatment?<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>I want to protect my children, I have to stand up for all of us, very codependent of me, but they are not aware to do it for them selves. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I wouldn't call that co-dependent. Staying in a destructive relationship and allowing destructive behavior to affect your life and your children's lives would be co-dependent.<P>Telling him to leave until he's sober is breaking away from co-dependent behavior. It's setting appropriate boundaries - a tough love kind of thing. It's lettiung him know that his behavior is destructive to you and to your children and that you will not allow your lives to be affected in that way. It's not selfish. IT's the only thing you can do for yourself, for your kids and for him. <P>If you want to support him by attending meetings with him, that's fine as long as you are consistent about the boundaries you set and the conditions you put in place for him coming back - mainly his sobriety for a minimum of a certain length of time.<P>And if he comes back and goes off the wagon, you have to be prepared to set the boundaries again.<P>It takes a lot of love, strength, and courage to help someone get over an addiction like that. I didn't have enough of either of those things for my 1st H to be able to help him. The only thing I could do was to set the boundaries once and never let him back. It sounds like you may have a lot more love, strength and courage than I had.<P>Good luck.

Burnedspouse,<P>I completely feel for you. I also am married to an alcoholic. He had been drinking severely for the past 3 years. Labor day he quit and has since then moved out of the house. His PA started after he stopped. However the EA was probably going on b4 hand. His Affairee is his boss as well as a recovering alcoholic.<BR> I have been going to Alanon meetings and if I were you I would do the same.<P>I have learned that my H suffers from depression which probably lead to the drinking and when he stopped he panicked. He is now using OW to replace the high he left behind him. He is truly in the FOG and we cannot even really talk to each other. He is still blaming me. He said to me one night everytime he gets on the phone with me I make him want to drink. BS!!!<P>I really don't know what else to say, I do feel if he is still drinking and having the A you must detach for now. Do not enable him to continue treating you badly. He needs to make these changes for himself. Go to an Alanon meeting ASAP!!! You are not responsible for his drinking.<P>If you would like to chat e mail me at <BR>Bighairgooch@aol.com<P>Diana

Thanks for the update guys. I know that I have to set those hard boundries. The girls here at the MB get together, have really helped with the logistics and played the devil's advocate a bit. I think that this weekind will be very good for me in getting my mind in the right mind set. <P>My H has been sober for three days and now I abandon him while I at this weekend. Ha ha. I deserve all my fun times! He is in charge and I did not get any calls for help from home. I have to have faith and hope that he will be sober tonite and tomorrow. It worries me, though. I have to let go, and pray they don't drive anywhere.<P>All for now. <P>B<P>Today is beautiful and I am feeling pretty good today. I know now that letting go as much as I can and letting H be the man he should be is good for us both. I will not call today, either! <p>[This message has been edited by burnedspouse (edited January 07, 2001).]

BurnedSpouse,<P>You can't make him stop drinking. <BR>I also am married to an alcoholic..and have had the financial problems as well..because he would drink his living expenses away and<BR>call me for more money because he didn't have<BR>any money..and couldn't afford a place to stay while out of town working..so I would take money from bills here and give it to him<BR>to live..getting me behind on bills here..consequences I now have to live with..<P>I asked him not to come back home, and to find another place to stay when he's in town<BR>the one weekend a month that he is..now he's having to face his own actions..he's having to learn to be responsible..and he did have a scare this weekend..which was good..but.also frightening for me...he had taken our son this weekend..and had been drink..<BR>our son has been sick and has been known to have asthma attacks when he's sick..I went out..so he couldn't call me..he had to buy some tylenol for the cold..but became really scared when he started thinking..what if has an attack and I can't help him?? That was the first time he has even thought about that..<BR>HE WAS TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE for another person<BR>other than himself..with nobody to call for help..and it scared him..I think that may have helped him to see a little bit of what I have had to deal w/ for years..albeit only one night..He has never had to be totally responsible for anyone but himself..because I have always been there to be the responsible one..I think thats the only way that he will really see whats at stake w/ his drinking..<BR>is that something terrible happen and he is to drunk to do anything..<P>I hadn't worked outside the home for eight years..and I went out this past year and started back to work..I had to put my education on hold yet again..but for me it's for the best..because I know that I have three kids to support..and stbx is on his own<BR>and is accountable to his own bills, and has nobody to call for money when he drinks his money away..when he has the kids he's learning that he has to be totally responsible for them..because I am not there anymore to take care of them when he's around them on the weekends he's in town..and is drinking..He still drinks when he has them..but I think this with our son this weekend was a real eye opener for him...he didn't even have the girls there to help if something happened...which is what he's also done in the past...put that responsiblity on them..<P>So I will give this advice..if you can get a job and leave..then do so...or let him be the one who leaves..and let him learn to be responsible for himself...

Thanks thornedrose: You know I really am at a loss with this alcoholism. I knew it existed, but I typically ignored the big picture. "If he loved me he would..., If he loved the kids he would..., the death of his sister from alcoholism would...--nothing really kept him from dissolving his life one day at a time.<P>He used to be so enerjetic and playful, now he barely smiles. He used to be competative at work, now he is just happy to have a job. He used to share his love and trust and his world with me, now he shares those with someone else. His decision making skills are null and void. I suffer greatly with the fog it produces. Most of the time I am fine, but I do have my bad weeks. Like this one. You probably read some of my other recent posts. This trip to their Love Nest this week is killing me. He still denies she is there, but I cannot find the faith to believe him. I have been very upset about it.<P>I need to learn more about this new world, the one I I have been putting off acknowledging, then I will be better equipped to set the correct boundries at the right tiem. They are right whe the Alanon group say do not make any major life changes for 6 months after starting alanon meetings, you learn more every day. And I did not heed the warning and have made some serious mistakes already...<P>Not too good for the LB scoreboard either...<P>Thanks<P>Beth

Beth, <P>It's not just the affair that puts him in the<BR>fog though..it's also the alcohol that has him there..and if he doesn't see he has a problem..then...<P>And something you need to learn is how to do things without him..like when you make plans and he says he's going to go and then is to drunk to go...do them anyway..leave him home in his drunk stupor..thats the one thing I had the hardest time doing when stbx was around..actually going out and doing things w/ friends without him..I had lived in guilt and condemnation for so long..I was afraid to <BR>do anything that would upset him..looking at it now, I was living in fear of how he would react..and fear of what he would do if I did<BR>whatever..he'd never hit me..but his anger came out in his words..and holes in the walls..and I know it's a fine line between a fist in the wall and fist in my face..and having grown up in a verbally abusive home<BR>my dad's anger was with words..as were my grandfathers w/ my grandmother..and they had both been known to raise a fist at my mother<BR>and grandmother...and my stbx has a raised a fist at me..he just didn't strike..but I don't want to live in that fear..I was blest my kids didn't see that..but..it's also harder because they don't fully understand why..and I really hurt for my son..he told me last night after having spent the weekend w/ his dad that when he was coming home he felt like he was being ripped down the center inside of himself...because he wants to be w/ both of us..but I know that I can't live in that fear..<P>And my girls they struggle too..even though they are older and have heard the verbally<BR>abusive words out of stbx's mouth..and have even asked why he's that way..and I don't have an answer...<P>So think of your children and yourself..and try to get out..let him deal w/ his own consequences before your dragged through the emotional wringer..and have no self esteem<BR>to get out..sad thing is..I know to many women in this same situation who are afraid to leave because they haven't worked in years..and rely on that financial support..and don't want their kids to suffer<BR>because of decisions they make..

TR<P>My H is not abusive in any way. Really he hides in that bottle from life. his coping skills were never reared in childhood and cannot deal with anything. After 16 years of marriage, he let it all go, even the love he had for me. But he could not face me, or tell me anything hurtful, so he told me nothing; until there was nothing left.<P>This hurts the most, really. The fact that by the time I knew there were problems, his were too big to be dealt with, but I couldn't recognise it because he kept it inside, locked in that bottle. I never got the chance to fight. He never fought. He gave up on us. That hurts more than so many other things. He threw us away because it was too "Hard." <P>Mine just drinks heavy at night to escape his home life. To escape me. Our poor kids have gotten caught up in the middle, but now that dicovery is 6 months old, they are again secure with his renewed interest in them.I on the other hand get nothing.<P>No friendship, no empathy, no direct contact, yet he lives right here at home. He does not even smile when he leaves the house now. He has removed himself so far from our old life, that he cannot even communicate. <P>I want to have him move out soon, but as with many BS's, one kind word, or a hint in his voice of concern and love resounds through your heart. It is hard to ask for departure, even to plan A from another location, when he trips you up. It is my Hope playing tricks, I know that. I'm not sure if I should ignore it or not. I try to stay open to God's little gifts, I try not to miss even one.<P>I do do things for myself. I have been doing that for six months trying to find myself before I was left alone. I have found part of me, but another part of me yearns for the tenderness I once shared with my H. I remember when he was my best friend. He has been a part of literally half my life, it is hard to say you can do without that half after all these years. I have had to say it, and mean it. But I still don't like it. <P>But I will survive, whatever happens. At least my children will always have my heart. My H gave me them... <P>Beth

Beth,<P>I am sorry you are hurting..but ignoring you<BR>is a form of mental abuse..sometimes the worst type of abuse..because you can't see the scars it leaves..<P>I used to get my hopes up all the time too..<BR>one little promise of he'll look for another job that he will be able to be home everynight..and stop drinking..and be here..<BR>he was even promising that when I asked him to move out in Sept..I was tired of hearing the empty words..and empty promises..heck<BR>he'd even asked me out on a date back in Sept...but then he called the night he was supposed to take me out..drunk..saying he didn't have the money to take me out and PAY his rent (he was working out of town) but he had the money to go get drunk..and even asked me to send him money..I'd had hopes up to that point..and even a few times since, when again he would say just the right thing..<BR>but I have to look at the actions..and not listen to the empty words of a drunk..because after six years of empty promises..they are old..I'm tired..<P>Sad thing is sometimes..I think what if..<BR>and then he calls me up drunk..and I'm like <BR>NO WAY!!! I can't go back to that..and he doesn't think he has a drinking problem..<BR>And I sit and look at his mom who was married<BR>to his dad till he died..and wonder..how did she do it? He was a drunk..couldn't hold a job..I guess thats why my stbx doesn't think he has a problem because he hasn't lost a job<BR>because of his drinking..I don't know..I guess the reason she stayed also is because she'd never worked..didn't have a car, didn't have a drivers license..anything..was totally <BR>dependent upon him..and thats how he would have liked me to stay..not working..where I was totally dependent upon him..and when I started back to school..his insecurities became more extreme when he was drinking..<BR>and he doesn't remember things he says when he's drinking..<P>So I sit and wonder...why am I even posting here..since I know that I am not going to be<BR>staying in this marriage..when this is supposed to be a site to encourage ppl to try to save their marriages..

As upset as I am and with the huge emotional setback I have gone through this weekend, I still know that the MB principles work. Just maybe not for the alcoholic's spouses. But I still think that gaining strength, and living with fortitude and peace of mind, and being strong, does good for us in the end. It makes us able to see the end and not be as affraid. With wisdom and strength gained from all the people here, (and just the chance to vent our heads off!) I think will make us stronger single people. And we also will have no baggage for the next relationship to come along; knowing you did ALL you could. <P>It does set you free, when you are ready to be free. I am about at the end of my journey, at least residing in a home where my ENs have not been met in 2 years. Not just sex either!! Just empathy, pride in me, carresses, a good belly laugh at one of my jokes...It is really not alot I ask. Just to be an equal partner. No more. <P>I am still young enough to find someone who could care for me in a respectful way. To be an alcoholic and a philanderer, that combo it hard to get through. I am running out of steam fast. Just working on me isn't enough all the time. I need some feedback, to be noticed...I wish my H was as soggy as yours(no offense), then it would be easier. No, love still makes it hard, no matter how drunk they are. <P>I am very confused again. Just this fact alone in relation to how strong I was 2 weeks ago, is a real eye opener. It scares me to be this low. I am going to go back on the meds as soon as I see my DR again. I feel I need them. <P>And all this pretense to my parents!! What pressure! HIS mother knows nothing. It was her bday today and I had the kids call her and she asks how are things at home, I say same as always around here...Nice huh? When I kick him out his mother is going to blame me, but I do not even care. He's warped and people should know it! I am protecting our "state of marriage." How it looks to outsiders. "Fake it until you make it." we'll see.

Hi, I just responded to you on my post, but wanted to let you know that I saw this one. I have never really dealt with alcoholism or drug addiction, and really want to send you prayers and hugs during this difficult time for you.<BR>I agree with the others, that a tough love approach sounds like the best route to go right now, not only for yourself but for your H. Also remember that if you do decide to take the therapists advice, it doesn't mean you are giving up or abandoning him, just that you are setting up your boundries, which you, your H and your kids need, to keep your heads together.<BR>As you may recall, I was hospitalized for anorexia twice. The first time I "ate my way" thru the program, simply gained the weight to get out of the hospital. For that stay my father put me in the hospital. My family was very supportive and understanding, but I never showed them I appreciated it. The next stay, about 6 mths later, I put myself in, and my family never called me. My father explained that they felt I didn't need their support. He expained to me that I needed to ask them for it. Being there alone scared me, and I realized what I had with them and how much I needed them. After realizing I nearly killed myself(shutting down half of my heart and slowing down most of my body so that it could survive)and how much they loved me and wanted me to make it, I was able to pull myself out for me, to get back my life. <BR>I don't know if this helps, but it seemed to apply. By letting your H see what his behavior is doing not only to himself, but to you, and that you are willing to help, even if not living in the same house, he may wake up.He may see how close he really is to losing all he has. Honestly, I read all your posts and do feel that you have been doing all you can, and although this may seem like a negative step, it could very well prove to be positive.<BR>Please let us know what happens and know we are here no matter what you decide. God Bless you and your family.

BurnedSpouse..LOL soggy..No none taken..<BR>and I hate to say it but sometimes even trying to make them responsible for their<BR>own actions doesn't always work..some just find another woman to support them..<P>I wish it was only 2 yrs of my EN's not being<BR>met..it's been alot longer than that for me..<BR>I've gotten condemned for relationships that I had B4 we ever married..and it's been like that since b4 we married..it was that way from when we met..he'd make comments about my men friends from church, he'd make comments<BR>about old b/f's..you know where the Harley's talk about the YOUR NOT MARRIED BEFORE YOU SAY I DO??? Well, he treated me as if we were..he'd come over and just stay..even get in my bed when he got tired..and then would get mad if I didn't come to bed w/ him..<BR>I should have seen all the red flags before hand..but he was good to my daughter..and would use his relationship w/ her against me<BR>and lay the guilt on me..when I tried to end it..about how I was just loosing ONE person<BR>and he was LOOSING TWO..and what about HIS relationship w/ my daughter..and blah blah blah..he was very manipulative..wish I would have been stronger back then emotionally because I wouldn't be where I am now..wish I'd have stayed in counseling back then..but as they say...hind site's 20/20...<P>And if you need help in learning about boundries..there is the book and workbook<BR>you can get..called Boundries...I am still<BR>working in the workbook..and I've read the book twice now..LOL...but I still learn more<BR>every time..

Thanks you Thornedrose and NGU. the weekend turned the corner for me. I have asked my H to move out after my trip to El Paso next weekend. He has not yet responded from the shock. More later...but when it came down to it, the drinking bothered me, but the A is degrading and destroying me. I cannot tell the difference between the lies and the truth. I am giving my H back this problem. The burden now belongs to him and to God. I must protect my self and what's left of my love.<P><BR>Beth