I feel a need to post my thoughts on this subject. My wife told me "OM" loved her on June 30, 2000. We were butting heads for months at this point. She told me she had feelings for him.?? short version, she started staying overnight at his place, moved out. I was an emotional wreck. I don't beleive she was having an afair. When I look back on it, does't add up. In her weak moments, or the ones she thought I would hurt myself she said she was staying there for financial reasons,(tenant). I LB my share at first, pushed her away. Even diet for medical reasons became LB. Some weight I tried to lose, some fell off "by it self". I lost 51 lbs(224 to 173), from May thru Sept. My wife thought I was prepping for a new love life. When I realized this I relaxed and filled out. I weigh between 184&190. I was polite but passive at first. Mostly trying to keep joint custody of kids. I stirred things up big time when I told her I wasn't going to be the 2nd OM. I felt she should have a man in her life that is everything for her. I would have to step back and let her live her life. She asked what I saw our life like if we divorced. I told her I would make sure I had the kids 1/2 the time and when I didn't have them I would live my life, hobbies, movies, partime job etc. I would limit contact with her. She asked if we could be friends. I told her that sounds like she has already let me go but still needs my company at times. I said I couldn't be Just Friends when I wanted so much more. I think My plan A really started about this time. I was polite before, but from here on I let her know I wanted to work on marriage, and be her husband. Plan A is hard when you are apart. I only lately know it't as much for you as for them. I needed to put myself in her shoes to really plan A. What would she want, how to act? Me changing me made her change too. I also look at recovery as her choice now. I want to be married to her, but only if she wants it too. My choice is dependant on hers. I think the Plan A should run upto the point where it doesn't seem to be working and then a little longer. I always feel I'd rather be in it too long than not long enough. <P>speaking of too long I should hang up now.<P>.D.

great discussion!!! <p>up for Class of 2002 Marriage Builders!

Faith, it really startled me to not realize I was reading an old thread and to suddenly see my posts. <p>2 years into recovery, I don't regret my long Plan A (18 months) one bit, I know Plan B was fairly unworkable for us, acting "as if" divorced was a good alternative, but I hadn't been ready before I was ready. I needed to get to the point of making changes within myself where I could cut down on contact.

i think this thread is great-0i think i am at the end of plan a. husband ended affair awhile ago yet hasnt made the necessary changes to protect me-mostly from his own selfishness. so im thinking of doing a 180 first for awhile, see if i learn anything doing that-if not-its off to plan b.

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Lor,
Sorry to send you through a time warp! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I thought this was a good discussion by some wise MB'ers. Everyone's situation is different, and it's so hard to determine the right plan and the right timing.<p>nikko,
I'm so glad you got some value from it. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>- Faith1

Just wanted to say that my own marriage has continued to do well and continued to grow since I penned this post a year and a half ago. <p>Following the principles Dr. Harley outlines to deal with the affair can only help you personally no matter what happens in the marriage relationship. We can never control another human being, therefore we cannot control the outcomes of our relationships. Comin to accept that and concentrating on ourselves is a very difficult thing to do when our worlds feel like they are spinning out of control. It's natural to try to regain some control. We can do great things, difficult things when we control ourselves and focus on making ourselves the very best we can be.<p>Dr. Harley's principles to rebuild and protect a marriage are timeless and work extremely well when both partners are motivated and commited.<p>All the best to everyone!

NO DOUBT.
Thanks Mthrrhbard for your wisdom.<p>Always my thoughts.
InTheClouds<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: INTHECLOUDS320 ]</p>

Some old-timers here have said that if an A does not end upon discovery or very soon thereafter, the odds of Plan A working are almost zero.<p>That in cases where the WS continues the A, the BS pretty much should work on doing a good, solid Plan A, and get to Plan B.<p>Agree? Disagree? Why?

Wow, I thought, look at all these oldtimers coming out for this discussion!!<p>Duhhhhhhhhh - look at the dates, WAT.<p>Anyway, the post is old, but the discussion will always be fresh.<p>For the record, it was mthrrhbrd who finally turned the light on for me regarding Plan B - after this thread was long gone. I'll get to that "click moment" in a moment.<p>My Plan A went for just over a year, for reasons that are not likely common. My point is that there may be situations that demand either longer or shorter Plan A's. It's very artificial, IMHO, to predict that 6 weeks or 6 months is the max time. <p>In my case, it's a foregone conclusion that my XW's affair was directly related to the loss of our child. The details are not important, just accept for a moment that she was so unable to deal with that loss that she chose to run instead - straight to her best friend's H. If you could only meet him, you'd understand that she wasn't running to him as much as she was running from everything else (not uncommon of WSs, though). I understood what was going on. After all, I was suffering from the same loss. As a result, I had more tolerance, perhaps, than I would have otherwise had in a "garden variety" affair. Hence, I went on for over a year during which she didn't spend any more than a few minutes on the fence - and only then during the early stages.<p>That said, I wish I had moved to Plan B sooner. My "click moment" from mthrrhbrd came when she told me in a post about the Plan B symbolism that permitted the BS to make a decision. As it related to me, my WS made the decision to have an affair, to lie to me and our surviving son, and to lie to and deceive her best friend. She made the decision to move out against the wishes of me and our surviving son. She made the decision to turn down all offers of counseling - either jointly or individually. She had made all the decisions affecting the lives of me and my son without regard to our wishes. <p>Plan B, mthrrhbrd said, was my chance to make a decision.<p>My WS made the decision to separate, Plan B was my decision to STAY separated - until she met my conditions. I caused a small furor on the forum by posting that with Plan B, I hadn't felt so liberated since I stopped wearing underwear.<p>So, back to my point. The best length of Plan A cannot be predicted, IMHO. You'll know when you get there and it can vary widely due to the specific circumstances. But once you're there, you may regret not making the move sooner. As for me, it didn't work to salvage my marriage, but it may yet work to salvage a friendship with my former wife - still in denial that she had an affair.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote>Spacecase
"Some old-timers here have said that if an A does not end upon discovery or very soon thereafter, the odds of Plan A working are almost zero"<p>Here is where there is a HUGE misunderstanding about Plan A. Plan A is NOT designed as a way to win back your WS! It's purpose is to make you the more attractive option should your WS come to the conclusion that the A may really not be what it's cracked up to be. It's to make you a better you.<p>When WS is conflicted upon discovery then they tend to see your Plan A results as they develop. When they are thickly fog laden and in fantsy land they tend not to see any difference or are hostile and suspicious. Fantasy land of an affair doesn't last forever. Reality sets in sooner or later. The question is how long can you just go about improving yourself while staying in a very unhealthy marital situation?<p>That's an individual thing. My opinion has always been that 6 months is way too long. That's just me. No way could I have my spouse throwing an active A in my face for that long, I would have lose all my self respect and my spouse would have lost all respect for me. Your spouse has to respect you before they can love you. I made mistakes in my marriage, but I was not a horrible spouse,it didn't take long to get across the point that I was changing for the better. <p>By allowing my WS to experience the natural consequences of his behavior he realized that the better me would not be an option for him if he didn't quit with the fence sitting. People don't change without the motivation to change. It's my opinion that WS doesn't readily or quickly see see how much they have to lose when they have both BS and OP meeting their needs. Afterall, an A is a very selfish act and feels good, so to have the benefit of OP and BS clamoring to meet ones ENs for long periods of time can feel quite wonderful and empowering. No consequence = no motivation to change.<p>Now, take away the BS who has changed and become a more attractive option while in Plan A, an individual who has remained commited and learned how and become more wiling to meet the needs of the WS and you have a consequence to remaining in the affair. Take away that better BS ( or one who wasn't too bad to begin with), and WS usually gets angry that they can't have the best of both worlds, but......reality starts to set in, they have something to lose and therefore have to make a choice. Couple that with an OP who at some time starts to become more demanding and wants WS for their own and losing the BS for good can become an even bigger consequence.<p>I just had to be proactive. I could not take the pain. Guess I'm a wimp of sorts. I had to ensure that my WS experienced the consequences of not making up his mind. I was losing it emotionally,more and more the longer I did Plan A with H still fence sitting, and I had 3 kids to take care of and a life and living to make if he wasn't going to stick around. I had to get emotionally healthy again and I couldn't do that on a rollercoaster that was constantly making me sick. I also knew in my heart that my marriage would not work for the long term if I didn't KNOW my H had CHOSEN to stay in the marriage vs. staying in the marriage just because. By separating he had to make an active choice and experienced for himself what life without his family would be like. His decision to recommit was an active one, not a passive submission to something comfortable. His making an active choice to stay in the marriage was HUGELY important to me in order for me to feel safe again in a marraige in which I had been betrayed. It was my way of knowing he realized what he had done, what it would cost everyone involved and would not risk it again with another affair somewhere down the road. It helped me be able to heal and trust again much easier ( and at that it took well over 2 years for me to heal).<p>It's going on close to 3 years now since d-day and the marriage continues to grow. We have dry spots and we slide back into complacency now and again but we both recognize the danger of that when it happens and one or the other, or both, makes active efforts to address the problem when it occurs. There is no more taking each other for granted anymore and no more sweeping things under the rug. We both recognize that marriage is a garden that needs constant nurturing and weeding and yields beautiful results with effort. We're enjoying our garden, remember vividly what it was like when we neglected it, and appreciate now, instead of dread the work it takes to keep it thriving.

Hi Dave!<p>You're one of the best Plan A success stories I know! <p>Just goes to show this stuff works no matter what a WS choses. She's lost more than she'll ever realize. However, I'd bet that realization is starting to set in some, the more time goes by.<p>God bless you and your son and all the best to you always!

I agree.<p>The MB Concepts tell you all about it. They are true and should be followed to the T, if you want to come through this on a positive, whether our M's work out or not.<p>There is no guarantee that every M will work even if the concepts are followed, but atleast as individuals, we can get through it in one piece and will be able to move on feeling that we will be o.k. no matter what. If you feel good, are confident, and have faith in yourself, anything is possible. That is what Plan A is all about, I think. Why should we lose our identity because we are M'd? Why else did you M who you M'd or thought you M'd? Because of who they are or thought they were, right? <p>How could you honestly feel that your M will workout if the WS is still seeing the OW/OM? I mean, yes, you can stick to the hope that the A will die a slow death and the WS will eventually come out of the fog but, for how long and at what cost?
(Varies according to each individual)<p>I just think it is disrespectful, dishonorable, humiliating, belittleling, and more. <p>In the meantime, it depleats the Love Bank and it sure doesn't protect you, your family, or your M. I know an A changes things anyway, but if the A keeps going on while you Plan A, the change takes on a whole different attitude. The recovery, if there is one, will most definitely be compounded, and seem almost unreachable. <p>In my case, it caused alot of resentment, compounding mistrust, and contempt--X'S 10. EVERYTHING is a trigger to me. All my furniture is a trigger for me. Am I suppose to get rid of my whole household cause of this? H%#l no! I worked hard for it. No outsider will take that from me. <p>Anyways.....<p>Pre-MB--I left my H and came back so many times all the while continuing to express my love and forgiveness each time and eventually he went right back to his old routine; his A's, gambling, not paying the bills, pulling disappearing acts on weekends, and anything else you could think of. I still did my "wifely" duties [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] hoping he would stop.<p>After I stubbled onto MB(God send) and started the "official" Plan A, I realized that as long as he continues to have his cake and eat it too, nothing would change. I thought to myself, if I were just like him...would I want things to change? DUUH! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] dumby! You went down his route. What happened? It was not the answer. You DO NOT want to be like him and you sure as h%ll don't want to live the rest of your life with a man you don't know let alone be in a M like this.<p>I see now what I refused to see then. I can stop complaining about it and do something to change it or sit here continuing to be dishonored, disrespected, humiliated, ignored, blamed, etc...<p>I made my choice. I faced my fears. (Being a single mom [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , starting over [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] , being alone <img src="graemlins/teary.gif" border="0" alt="[Teary]" /> , mula$$$?, and where would I go?) I hadn't worked in years:embarrassed:! <p>I MADE A PLAN. I gave my Plan A 6 months. I told him all about MB and showed him all the books. I requested we go into MC, individually and jointly, gave him print outs, tried group discussions with other M'd couples(family & friends) who were going through the same thing, and more. I paid off all my bills and saved money. I set my goals. <p>When I left, (Plan B), I told him that I loved him; that I wanted to be M'd to him; that I believed he could be the H I needed if he wanted it bad enough; that I could be the wife he needed 100%+ if he just chose to be M'd to me 100% *& no less. I also let him know that I forgave him, but I would no longer accept his hurting me. I have to get away to save the love I have left. I have to get away to save the dignity and sanity I have left. <p>Me: "I accept responsibility for my part in the fall of our M, but I would no longer accept responsibility for your part. I think that you need to take this time to face your demons and figure out what you want. I can't control nor will I try to change you anymore. I can't and I accept that. Sorry if I hurt you because of it. I realize that I have to take care of me now. I can control me and change myself. Our D needs role models. She needs her parents...both her parents. I don't want her to think that this is how M is or how all men are. I want to be a mother she is proud of and want to be M'd to a man I am proud of. I want to love you all the time, not some of the time. Please help me do this." <p>Leaving him was the hardest thing. Being here without him is so hard. He has been my life for the past 11 years. Now I am scared that he will not choose us, but I know that I will be o.k. no matter what his choice may be. I have to be. (I start college in the fall [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ) <p>Recently I sent him a 8 page letter basically telling him that I love him, miss him, what to remain M'd to him, but only if he wanted and could be a H to me and F to our D 100%, no less. I told him in the letter that I will not wait for him forever. I gave him 3 months to decide and if he could not decide in 3 months with a yes or no answer, then no answer at all would be my answer. I will file for a D. He has decided to take the whole 3 months to decide [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] ... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] It scares me, but it is the sacrifice I have to take if I want things to change for me. <p>He sent, not just me, but MY MOTHER too, flowers on Mother's day. He has never done that the whole 10 years we've been M'd. He tells me he loves me everytime we talk now and calls me instead of me doing all the calling. He paid a bill and called me just to tell me.(Funny) Don't worry..., won't fall back into the same trap(YO-YO/ROLLERCOASTER)<p>For myself, Plan A is for me and Plan B is for us. I think it may take drastic measures for them to see the light....in my case anyway. <p>So..., that is why I agree. <p>Just my thoughts.
InTheClouds

In the Clouds<p>You've got it! No matter what he choses you will be able to hold your head high and feel good about yourself. You will have regained your self esteem through making a life for yourself and your child, and that's a very honorable thing! <p>He, on the other hand, will have to live with the reality that he's lacking in character and integrity. It takes a lot of personal work to regain that. And you my dear, will have the hardest work already behind you and be well on your way to a new life! God bless you! Keep up the good work and good luck at college!

Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong>.....Plan B, mthrrhbrd said, was my chance to make a decision.<p>My WS made the decision to separate, Plan B was my decision to STAY separated - until she met my conditions. I caused a small furor on the forum by posting that with Plan B, I hadn't felt so liberated since I stopped wearing underwear.<p>So, back to my point. The best length of Plan A cannot be predicted, IMHO. You'll know when you get there and it can vary widely due to the specific circumstances. But once you're there, you may regret not making the move sooner. As for me, it didn't work to salvage my marriage, but it may yet work to salvage a friendship with my former wife - still in denial that she had an affair.</strong><p>I do agree with Wat about the plan B relieving some of the stress and liberting the spirit. (I am not agreeing about the u-wear part - LOL!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] - so this is where that post is hiding!!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>I do remember this post. vaguely recall it but as I read it, the points did stick. For me, plan A had to be shorter than most because:<p>1. I was dealing with a dysfunctional WS and a psyco OW. They were draining me fast. <p>2. I could not emotionally afford to stay in plan A. The WS is a major conflict avoider and as long as I stayed in plan A he felt he was having the best of both worlds (even alluded to that fact some dumb comment about 2 women wanting him -plan B fixed that thought). <p>3. So after much deliberation and thought I went to plan B. <p>I remember the horror some had as they pondered about plan B. I felt the horror also. But once executed, I must say, I felt relieved. The tension spots in my neck and shoulders, softened. My nightmares disappeared. My anxiety attacks reduced. Life seemed bearable and other topics, activities and people began to take their rightful place. <p>Plan B is not a bad thing if the BS has made their individual changes and the WS has not or not enough. Here is that Dr. Harley quote from the basic concepts section on plan b:<p>"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. <p>
&#8230;In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. <p>But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety. <p>In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts." <p>I need to add that I did not do a good plan A or plan B but I did both. I let the WS back home too soon and then had to stand my ground firmer each time. That was hard. In the long run for me, it was worth the effort. Only be insisting that respect for our family be a requirment was I able to keep it together for our family. I learned to put the onis on the WS to prove himself worthy of taking H back as his rightful title. This time he had to earn it. He is still working on it and this time with a much better attitude. That has been my measuring rod. <p>In the end, plan B gave me back my life. I am not sorry I went to plan B. I wished I had the strength to do it sooner but do not regret doing it at all. <p>Mtthrbrd, I want to thank you for your thoughtful post. Back in Jan 2001, I was too distraught to appreciate the words of wisdom from you and your collegues. I want to let you know that this little poster did listen, just a bit thick skulled and so it took a while for it all to sink in but I am glad I had the sense to stay here. Patience and persistence paid off. Even if the Ws did not come back or if he did, what I learned here was valuable for me. All this time has not been wasted. <p>Mahalo,<p>[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

im gonna jump in here and say my situation is a little different. so im not always sure what to apply and when.<p>right after finding out i left-to go to girlfriends house-she had my kids.(we were supposed to go to husbands x-mas party-guess who he took-i didnt know. she wasnt home and i couldnt get her on her phone. i drove around and eventually came home. found husband sleeping.(that should have been clue #1) i nver asked him to leave. we went through a few days of he//. i then made the first move to hold his hand. we never stopped sf. i then took on the responsibility of repair. he never did no-contact, they decided to be just friends. he never did std tests. she had condoms. we started to rebuild and i realized that he was extremely comfortable in having his needs met, but putting forth no effort. not even counseling-there was another excuse for that too. he is loving in some ways, but doesnt want to do the work at rebuilding. that is all on me. i have done a very good plan a. he has not even tried. again i will say he is not a monster, the affair is over, as far as i know, my problem is i have the same lousy marriage back that got me here to begin with.<p>so i have decided to make some changes. i will still meet his needs and stay the better me. i will no longer initiate conversations or ask him how i am doing with whatever i am doing at the time. i will begin my life for me-do things i have wanted to do. i was afraid of this because husband felt before the affair that i had a life without him. i did, because i realized he didnt want to participate. that is his issue to deal with. i will no longer be afraid of him walking away. he can decide to do what is necessary to help repair this marriage or not-his choices. i will no longer make being stuck were we are a comfort zone for him. so i am trying a 180 in certain ways.<p>i guess my question is also, how would plan b pertain to me-is it an option. separate and draw my boundries(counseling, and active participation in marriage, etc..). i just dont want to be stuck here anymore.

Wow! Lot of "old timers" here, eh? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Everyone seems to forget. Plan A/B are used to (try and) save marriages. But they don't always work for that purpose.<p>However, ya' gotta remember they are also to help you get through it all in a way which will lessen the emotional trauma of a (possible) divorce.<p>Many people (newbies mostly) at MB seem to think Plan B is simple. In the case of Plan B, you MUST have a friend/family member to use as a go-between who understands what is going on. You better be sure this is something you want to pile on this person and explain to them it's more than, "hey, can my ws pick up my kids here tomorrow?"<p>since I penned this post a year and a half ago.
?!?!? So that's what happened! [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]
I didn't even notice.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
<strong><p>Spacecase Quote:
"Some old-timers here have said that if an A does not end upon discovery or very soon thereafter, the odds of Plan A working are almost zero"</strong><hr></blockquote><p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
Here is where there is a HUGE misunderstanding about Plan A. Plan A is NOT designed as a way to win back your WS! It's purpose is to make you the more attractive option should your WS come to the conclusion that the A may really not be what it's cracked up to be. It's to make you a better you.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I did not mean to imply that the decision to commit to the M and work on it was the RESULT of Plan A; rather that some WSs will realize their mistake pretty much upon discovery and other won't (before Plan A is even in place). In the case of those who don't, it has been said here by several old-timers, that the odds of their realizing their mistake and commiting to the M during Plan A (DURING Plan A, not as a result of Plan A) are next to zero; that in those cases, Plan B is almost always a necessary step in the process.<p>And my question was whether this is pretty much the case, if you agree or not, and why?<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
That's an individual thing. My opinion has always been that 6 months is way too long. That's just me. No way could I have my spouse throwing an active A in my face for that long, I would have lose all my self respect and my spouse would have lost all respect for me. Your spouse has to respect you before they can love you. I made mistakes in my marriage, but I was not a horrible spouse,it didn't take long to get across the point that I was changing for the better. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>I tend to agree with you, but of course, each case is unique, and each individual has a different threshold at which it becomes unbearable or the LB$ is depleted.<p><strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
By allowing my WS to experience the natural consequences of his behavior he realized that the better me would not be an option for him if he didn't quit with the fence sitting. People don't change without the motivation to change. It's my opinion that WS doesn't readily or quickly see see how much they have to lose when they have both BS and OP meeting their needs. Afterall, an A is a very selfish act and feels good, so to have the benefit of OP and BS clamoring to meet ones ENs for long periods of time can feel quite wonderful and empowering. No consequence = no motivation to change.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I think the key phrase here is "People don't change without the motivation to change." which really "validates" the dual-role played by the Harley plans; making the BS a better person, and at the same time, demonstrating to the WS what it will be like to lose them.<p>
<strong> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now, take away the BS who has changed and become a more attractive option while in Plan A, an individual who has remained commited and learned how and become more wiling to meet the needs of the WS and you have a consequence to remaining in the affair. Take away that better BS ( or one who wasn't too bad to begin with), and WS usually gets angry that they can't have the best of both worlds, but......reality starts to set in, they have something to lose and therefore have to make a choice. Couple that with an OP who at some time starts to become more demanding and wants WS for their own and losing the BS for good can become an even bigger consequence.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Perfect description.
Thank you for your insight, mthrrhbard<p>[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</p>

I think the BS's Plan A behavior also sometimes acts to counteract the WS's revision of history. If the WS thinks "My spouse ALWAYS or NEVER does XYZ" but sees the spouse not following the old patterns, it can be a wedge in the WS's thinking.<p>My H said he never thought I loved him that much. My long (too long?) Plan A showed him I do love him. So, when I went for the D, he did have the realization he was losing someone.<p>But, that isn't something a BS can control, the realization doesn't always come.

bump for mthrrhbard