Analyzers, hunker down!! I am completely baffled. My wife has instituted what feels like marital carpet bombing.<P>She's still totally PO'd about my comment about her abandoning our son (see my thread "LB'd back to the stone age...") and now she's manufacturing LBs and making all kinds of accusations, all of which lead her to conclude she wants a divorce.<P>Today I took our son to the doctor for a routine checkup. Now, this is the same pediatrician's office that my wife and OM's wife used to work at. So you can imagine the office talk. I suppose this is why she wanted me to take our son - so she wouldn't have to face her former co-workers. Anyway, my wife asked me if I saw this one person, would I please explain to her that she (my wife) didn't go with OM to England for Thanksgiving like OM's wife claims. Huh? OK, sure, Honey, if I see her I'll tell her. Of course I had no intention of covering her stories, although we no doubt spent Thanksgiving together.<P>When I took our son back to my wife's apartment after the doctor checkup, I invited her over for dinner tomorrow night as it will be our au pair's final night with us before she goes home on Wed. She simply said "No." Then she wanted to know when my Aunt was coming to town. I explained she's coming the same time that the au pair is leaving. (I asked my Aunt to come for a few weeks while we get the new au pair organized and to cover the first two weeks in February when I have a business trip - it would be unreasonable for the new au pair to fly solo that soon. I had mentioned all this to my wife back around early December.) Then I left because it looked like she was getting madder.<P>A few minutes later, my wife calls me on the cell phone and wants to know if my Aunt is coming because she wants to visit or because I asked her to come help. I answered it's a little of both. Then she lambasted me for not having the consideration to ask if SHE would come stay in my house for two weeks while I'm away, to break in the new au pair and to have more time with our son. I explained that I had no reason to believe she would do that since, 1) she recently has turned down all invitations to even visit, (for example, she won't come to dinner tomorrow night) and 2) she has said over and over that she doesn't like being in my house (proximity to OM's family's house and bad memories of our son dying here). She couldn't believe I didn't even ask her to come stay while I was gone. She then accused me of planning all of this so that it would prevent her from spending more time with our son - to bolster my "abandonment" argument. I told her she was being unreasonable and I reminded her that she is always welcome and that if she wants to come stay for the period I'm gone, she still can. She replied that my Aunt probably doesn't like her anymore because of what I might have told her AND, by the way, don't be telling things to my family anymore!! I said I haven't talked about "things" with your parents since last summer when I was desperate to get you some help. She then said just don't talk to them any more. I responded by asking what did I tell them that was not true? She said she didn't want to talk about it right now. I said, OK, then why won't you want to come to dinner, but you would come for two weeks - is it because you don't want to be around me? She said it was because the au pair would be there and she's not comfortable. I can only imagine that she's not comfortable because the au pair knows too much. Then she added, "yes, I don't care to be around you much either."<P>Then to top things off, she demanded one more time that I get her name off the mortgage so she can have her own place big enough for both our son and the au pair. Getting frustrated, I calmly asked her that if she would just try to work on our marriage we wouldn't have to go through all of this. She accused me of not really changing, thus there was no need to work on the marriage. So this means you want a divorce, I asked? She said, right now, that's what I want.<P>What in h*** is going on? How can someone turn into such an animal? Is this the WS behavior when they feel cornered with truths or have guilt piling up? I am just becoming the scapegoat? Someone through me a life ring!!!!!!<P>Dave (WAT)

Dave, she's probably still upset about your comment today but here's another thought . . . I remember I'd be particularly nasty to my H when things weren't going well with MM. Just an idea.<P>Hang in there. I know this is hard on you when all you want is to try and save your marriage.

WAT-It sounds to me like she's feeling ashamed & really embarrased by what she's been doing. She doesn't want to be around anybody who knows is happening, or has happened. Hopefully that will turn into a plus for you eventually.<P>I guess you really hit a sore spot with her, something she was already feeling guilty about (your son). She's just angry that it was brought up & verbalized and is lashing out at you. Maybe try not to talk to her any more than you have to for the next few days & let her calm down. . . I don't know, I'm pretty new here but it's just a suggestion.<P>Hang in there, I'll be praying for you.

Hey WAT,<P>You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Whenever anything goes wrong in my H's life, especially concerning the kids I get the blame for it. If they don't want to spend an evening with him I am "turning them against him". They have no where else to go WAT...just to us. Heaven forbid they start looking at what the real problem is....their fuddled up minds. Maybe, on the positive side this is some sort of predecessor to coming out of the fog. They know they are blowing it, they are trapped in a life of their own doing, and they are beginning to panic.<P>The fact that your wife said "right now I want a divorce" just makes me crazy. That woman no more wants a divorce than you do. The "right now" part of that sentence says a bunch. <P>Bitsy is right, your wife is probably very embarrased right now. She knows that her family knows and can't stand it. That was also something I did early on that I regret, telling my husbands family. But man, did I ever need their support when I did it. <P>Anyway WAT, ride this out. Quit arguing with her...she is filing all of those comments you make away in her brain for future usage..and she'll use them. Also sounds like you are doing some educating there with the "if you would work on the marriage we wouldn't have to go through all this." She knows that already, she just isn't ready to face the music.<P>You've got her good and confused, which may sound unkind, but I think it's great. She is doing a lot of thinking right now.<P>You are still in the game WAT.<P>allison

You ladies are a blessing - darn, I hope you're right. Thanks. Did I say she was stubborn, by her own admission?<P>Dave (WAT)

WAT,<P>As I read your post, I kept thinking why is he even talking to her about all of this stuff? She cannot handle it, and apparently neither can he.<P>I was told years ago "Don't argue with an idiot or you will sound just like them."<P>You sound just like your W. You know why she is doing what she is. You hurt her deeply with the comment about your son. I mean you two just lost one son, and you are claiming she is an unfit mother. Don't know how you could have hurt her more. It may be true that she has been a lousy mother, but that is for her to figure out.<P>In fact, most of her problems are for her to figure out, not you. So quit arguing with your W. STOP NOW! The woman has serious problems, and she isn't handling them well at all. So what do you expect to accomplish?<P>I, for one, cannot think of a single positive thing accomplished or even theoretically possibly accomplished in the exchange you just posted.<P>WAT, you are a very hurt man on many levels. I understand that. But you are also the only rational one in the marriage right now. So quit acting as if your W is. Quit expecting so much from her. She is hurt, confused, deluded, and probably very sorry for many things in her life. So treat her that way.<P>Treat her with some compassion, she needs healing not educated.<P>You cannot fix what is broken here WAT. Only time and God can. So give up control or trying to control this situation. It is way beyond you, me or anyone here. <P>Your old marriage is gone. The only hope left is to build a new one, based on friendship, tolerance, and a mutual understanding of each other. But that has to be her choice as well as yours.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P>

Dave,<P>Have a question for you? Did you ever bring up the money your wife owes you? <P>Sorry she is freaking on you, hang in there.<P>good luck with all the changes, hope your son deals with them well.

Dave, <P>#1 - Drop the "D" word from your vocabulary. Dont ask her if that's what she wants and don't discuss one. <BR>#2 - Stall on that mortgage thing still. You are real busy these days, right?<BR>#3 - Don't engage in any arguments. I think you know the answers(however absurd). They are major LBs and any deposits you are able to make are quickly depleted with each LB.<P>BTW, I went through something very similar although my H never moved out. The more I challenged him on things, demanded answers as to his behavior and cried the more withdrawn he became. It ended up being just as your wife has said. He wanted a divorce, couldn't stand to be around me, etc...<BR>I thinkits just part of all of that emotional garbage they are carrying around.<P>take care of your broken self <BR>cleo

Dave,<P>I was going to say this too, but while I was thinking, JL beat me to it... <P>I was sitting here analyzing what you said, and I can't help but think that both you and your W are equally at fault in this latest exchange. One of you (presumably you) needs to do something to stop this cycle.<P>I think JL already gave you all the tips, and I second them wholeheartedly. One thing that I see you bring up over and over is this mortgage document (?) that she apparently has been asking you to sign and you (apparently) have said that you will. But yet you keep delaying signing the document, and it almost seems like you're holding it over her head like a carrot to get her to work on the marriage. If this is indeed the case, I can guarantee you that this will only build resentment.<P>Anyway, I don't want to sound harsh, and I do sympathize and root for you tremendously. It's just that reading your post, I'm not sure that you are helping things any...<P>I also agree with JL, that given your previous comment to her about abandoning your son, you better be on your absolute best eggshell walking behavior for the foreseeable future. Getting into any arguments is a guaranteed loser...<P>Good luck, buddy!<P>AGG

Dear Dave,<P>I'm sorry to hear that she is still on the war path. I still can't help but think that it is good for her to being going through this emotional upheaval given all the unresolved issues she has buried. I do agree, however, that you have to get out of her "sights." You know how they are. It doesn't matter what you say or how logical it is. They can turn it in to an LB.<P>Many, many people have given me the advice lately that I need to stop trying to change my H or even believe that any thing I say or do will change his mind anymore. I've shown him I have changed and he has admitted it.<BR>I'll relay that same advice to you. Your W already knows how wrong she is about a lot of things, but is not capable of dealing with it now. <P>I know it is hard with kids, but try not to talk to her too much for awhile, even if you think it is nice (inviting her to dinner). Sometimes the nicer you are, the guiltier they feel, and the worse they behave. You need to break out of that cycle for awhile.<P>I'll go out on the prediction limb and say she is NOT ready to divorce you. Her "right now" is quite telling. Even though she is very angry and hurt, she is still drawing back from that step. Hang tight and don't talk to her for a while if you can avoid it.

OK folks, thanks for the tough love. I can recognize the right answer when told. I was trying to be logical and I've known for a long time that she isn't when we have a confrontation. She's a completely different person than my wife.<P>To clarify, the mortgage thing is something she's demanding in order to free up her debt so she can get another mortgage. I haven't sorted out everything she owes me, but it's a lot. I'll try to float a while longer to avoid a confrontation. <P>Thanks again,<BR>Dave

My internet connection was down again this evening....hence I just saw your post. I knew there was a reason why I wanted to connect all evening.<P>You've got some good advice already. I'll just add a bit more. The best thing you can do is to be calm and diplomatic every time you talk to her now. Don't initiate too many conversations, let her come to you. She'll continue to be mad, but that simply can't go on forever. I agree with the rest, that saying "right now" she wants a divorce says something. Don't ask anymore what she wants, or any other pointed questions. You know what kind of answers you'll get. She isn't ready for any of this now.<P>Someone on here said that a good response to many statements, especially these nasty ones, is "I'm sorry you feel that way". I've used this one, and it seems to diffuse potential wars. If you have it ready at all times, and instead of getting drawn into a confrontation, just use that...it will help.<P>Just the junk she wanted you to say at the doctors office tells you she is like a fish out of water, and you can't reason with that. She is doing the same things as mine. Avoiding people, getting mad at things and blaming you. I had rough spells before the holidays, and am now in a calm phase of less contact. But I experienced that stuff off and on as you know, and it always seemed that one nasty call would just have ended, and the phone would ring again, with some sporadic nasty thought about a different topic. You just have to be a teflon listener and let it bounce off you, using the "I'm sorry you feel that way". They can't continue to argue for longer after hearing that, from my experience. It isn't what they expect. They want an argument.<P>Speaking of avoiding people, my son's birthday is next week. My wife informed me that she has no money for buying loot bags, so doesn't want to invite all his friends. Just the kids, wife, me, and MIL. No problem spending hundreds on skiing and New years Eve, but $20 on loot bags isn't possible. The real reason is that she a) wants to convey a no money illusion, and b) wants to avoid the people she has avoided for months now.<P>Back to you. Her world is falling apart. Probably OM thing is not such a big fantasy now. So what is left? Well, she has alot of guilt, has avoided people, has rumors to deal with, has debts to think about, has son calling her saying he isn't sure he wants to go see her, you hit a sore spot and the truth hurts...and it must be someones fault...oh, it is yours, of course. I'm only speculating on OM fantasy cooling off, because they sure as heck linger, but she is definitely not experiencing green grass everywhere.<P>Stall on the mortgage thing. I'm sure there are a multitude of things that could delay it. You will be away, you have other debts to worry about and pay (school etc.), whatever. You know best on that one.<P>I can understand why you let your statement out the other day. I find when things aren't moving at all, I start to feel like shaking it up a bit, and in my mind I start playing things out, such as what I'd like to say to my wife. When she is freaked out, nasty, and not happy sounding, I don't have the strong urge to LB. But give me a phase of calm behavior, and I start to want to say what I think about everything. That is dangerous.<P>You probably feel worse now about the odds of reconciliation, but don't let this phase alter your thoughts. It is always up/down/up/down over time. This is just a down time. Give it time. I don't think she's rushing out to get divorce papers. The madness will go away.<P>So remember, instead of saying she's unreasonable and always welcome, I suggest "I'm sorry you feel that way, but you are always welcome". Sorry to harp on that, but I really think it helped me. Of course, where am I now? Not much happening in my marriage. But I don't expect an overnight miracle anyway.<P>Try not to be too baffled, because this isn't a shock. I'm sure when you saw some of my posts about LBs and my wife's nasty behavior, you said to yourself...just another day in WS-land. They are predictably unpredictable. So just ride the storm for awhile longer. Someday I think we'll have a beer together in better circumstances, and look back on this most unfortunate phase of life.<P>If this ever does anything positive to your situation, I'll be employing your tactics. But for now, I'm biting my tongue as best I can. I forgot to mention that I did argue with my wife before Xmas when she was nasty and accusing. I remember writing a title of something like "LBd and I don't care"...because she was so outrageous that I could not just sit there and listen. In my case, there are a number of potential LBs just percolating, and I'm bracing for one. Thats another story.<P>Anyway, hold on tight. Where are you going on your trip, if you can say?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited January 15, 2001).]

Thanks Rick - I had a big piece of humble pie after looking back over these events. I could have done much better at avoiding the confrontation, but she was the aggressor in the second round. I really appreciate the critical advice I got.<P>I can't stall too much on the mortgage thing because the separation agreement requires it within 120 days of signing - don't know exactly when that was, but my attorney is getting a signed copy. I think 120 days will be up sometine in late Feb. My intentions are to calmly sort out who owes who what, with the expectation that she owes me a lot. It'll cost $1000 to re-do the mortgage, of which she pays half. With the au pair and school expenses also coming at the same time, I'll have to go into my home equity line because I know she can't afford what she owes me. The mortgage thing is clearly low priority, but legally I can't hold it open just because she owes me money for other committments - only if she can't afford her half. She'll want me to put that on the equity line, I bet, so that'll be a potential confrontation.<P>I've learned a lot the last several days and I think I can go about it now correctly. Must recognize the internal turmoil she must be in. But, what's the best way to show compassion if she doesn't want to be around me or be near me? When she calms down it's still a brick wall built up around her to try to offer support and caring. She's made herself an island and won't let anyone on.<P>Dave

It is hard to show compassion when the wall is up. All I can suggest is to be a good listener if she ever talks about anything, and keep doing things that fit into the situation, like the chicken you gave her. Just little things like that. Not many would say no to a nice meal, or a little snack, whatever. Not a whole lot else you can do, just continue to be a great father...she knows that already.<P>I didn't realize that she had really signed the separation agreement. Guess the mortgage has to be taken care of then. I should look into a home equity line kind of thing....because something has to give in my budget, and I don't want it to be selling the house.<P>My wife's mysterious requirement to be off mine within 30 days of her closing seems to have vanished, or perhaps the bank just hasn't bugged her. Who knows.<P>Let us know what transpires over the next few days.

Dave,<P>Don't have any words of wisdom, but my thoughts and prayers go out to you.<P>Bill

WAT<P>Sorry for the late reply, I have been away for a short while.<P>It would appear that your W is currently feeling incredibly guilty about her parental behaviour - this point unfortunately was hammered home by your comment. It has definitely been perversely seen as an LB by her even though you were merely pointing out the truth of the matter.<P>It never ceases to amaze me how the WS transfers their guilt into blame towards the BS. What exactly have you (or I or Rick or any other BS) done wrong here? - Nothing!<P>They are living in a reverse-logic vaccuum where ther do not want to be responsible for anything other than their own satisfaction whilst we smooth things over and cover for them in the background for the sake of their "reputation".<P>This situation sucks as you already know, I don;t have any good direct advice for you other than to reassure you that we have all LB'ed to some degree or other (often repeatedly) and you are just seeing an angry "punishment" from your W for daring to show her a glimpse of the real world as opposed to fantasyland where she and all of the other WS currently have a timeshare vacation lease.<P>Let's hope that those leases expire soon.<P>Regards<P>HarryHat

Thanks guys. I did myself a big favor by breaking out my copy of Private Lies. If you don't have it, get it. I has very good and detailed discussions of infidelity physiology. It helped me to put my latest incidents into the grand scheme of infidelity life cycles. It's a good reference companion for SAA.<P>Now get this latest twist of what HASN'T happened. I think it speaks volumes: Today our au pair leaves to go back to her home country. She has been a very warm addition to our family since she arrived last January. My son loves her dearly and she has been like a big sister to him. She has been wonderful overall. My wife's affair started in June - halfway through the au pair's visit, and she had a front row seat for all the bizarre stuff. She was very acquainted with OM and his family and when the A hit, she knew everything because she couldn't avoid not knowing. Anyway, before the A, she and my wife were rather close and did many things together. Can you believe that my wife has not even called her to say thank you or good bye? This is so totally uncharacteristic of my "real" wife. Why? Because the au pair knows too much is my bet. She also thinks the au pair and the OM's family communicated about the affair. To me this represents that my wife is distancing herself from anyone who has any knowledge of the A. This is corroborated by her recent accusastions to me about informing her family.<P>Is this the guilt coming to the surface? Sure seems like it.<P>Dave

I should get a copy of Private Lies. Think I'll order it. Guilt is probably an understatement for your wife. It is quite clear that she can't face the au pair. It is sad the things that they throw away isn't it.<P>There is probably a tailspin element to this. They are in one and don't quite know how to get out of it. The stunt show is fun and exciting, but oh oh, mechanical problems....into a tailspin. I'm sure that while the elation of being with OM is on, they ignore the nastier aspects of what they've done.<P>

Rick - what's your opinion? I've been suspicious that OM is off again - is this guilt coming out possibly fog clearing and I'm the only one to blame? She sure is PO'd at me. Steve said that at some point she's gonna get really mad at me. Maybe this is it. Tailspin. Crash and burn?<P>Dave

This could be part of her guilt/fog clearing/OM cooling/etc. But, as you very well know, there is no way of knowing what it is. She is upset at your comment, but what is going on in her mind is anybody's guess, I think. I think it is safe to say that the grass isn't as green as she might have thought it was with those shades on, but beyond that, all you can do is wait and see.<P>Keep those honey garlic chickens cooking and wait it out. Not much else you can do, but lets hope that it is crash time soon, but that there is no burn because you pull off the rescue.<P>Did she say bye to the au pair?