I know I probably shouldn't be asking this, but I will anyway. My wife is a bit colder now. Not nasty, just not calling as much, not talking about much at all. Mostly calls from work, so I'm bottom of the barrel right now I'd say.<P>She dislocated her shoulder last week, and has been getting drives into work, even left her car there last night, and had to go for x-ray this AM. That tells me that OM is driving her and helping her with everything. She is still lying like crazy...that is what bugs me the most. Most days I talk to her, I think I get one.<P>She'll call on the day before I'm supposed to get the kids, and tell me she suddenly has an appointment with a client, so "can you watch them for a few minutes". At 7PM in the evening! But low and behold, she'll have them in their PJs. Imagine that. I know that she wants to bring the kids over, and leave them so she has the night off, since she realizes that once they go to sleep, she'd wake up and bring them over anyway in the AM. The appointments are all lies. Spends about $300 on New Years eve, but then says she can't afford loot bags for my sons birthday party.<P>Never admitted affair, lies at work, bla bla bla...you know the deal.<P>I want my marriage, but I'm not particularly missing her right now. I'm more and more resolving myself into accepting that it might be over. I suppose I don't miss her because I'm so sick of the lies and bulls*** that I just don't want to be a part of it.<P>Is this the standard game and thus I should just wait it out? Sometimes I really want to take an alternative approach that would involve telling her what I know, and a rash of other things, like getting vocal about her spending, illustrating to OM that she lies to him, all that stuff. I know that I'm nuts to think about this, but I get irritated that she thinks she is getting away with this. And to think that she must believe I fall for all the lies.<P>We don't talk alot about anything significant. I wonder sometimes if I should introduce WHY I think we could work on our marriage. The whole MB concepts. Is it time for a nudge so she knows I want to work on us? A letter maybe? Or do I just hope that she comes to me someday? I've never said anything about being there "but not indefinitely". Maybe I should.<P>This weekend, she'll probably want to do something with the kids and me. But it will be empty of emotion. Maybe she won't want to...who knows. It would be so nice if she would just admit confusion and the OM situation, but the lying and saying "we're friends" gets to me.<P>Any advice or comment appreciated.<P>

Dear Rick,<P>I'll admit that I'm struck by probably the least significant item in your post. What kind of mother won't spend $20 on loot bags for their kids' birthday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sorry, that just makes me very angry and sad. What gives a person, mother or father, the right to satisfy their needs of the moment ahead of their kids' needs. (And I believe loot bags are a need at this age.) Maybe she can somehow "rationalize" that you don't deserve better treatment, but the kids are completely innocent and deserve better.<P>Okay, I just needed to get that out of my system. You sound quite down tonight and I'm wondering whether you are getting closer to Plan B or just feeling low for the moment. I think it is really hard to Plan A when they move out because there are so many other things involved then like money and kid issues, and what to tell people etc. Has your W ever admitted that you have changed or noticed your Plan A efforts?<P>I'm beginning to wonder whether Plan Aing until you just can't stand it any more is right or whether you should Plan A until you have clearly demonstrated that you can and want to meet WS's ENs and then move to Plan B. You seem like you have lost most if not all of the deposits in your love bank and it is hard to run on empty.<P>I'm not trying to tell you to go to Plan B, I'm just ruminating. As you know, my situation is a little similar and I'm wondering what, if any, the continued benefit of Plan A is. How will the WS ever get the wakeup call they need if they have their cake and eat it too? I imagine that you have talked to Steve about this and I'm probably off base. <P>I too, though, get sick of the cold routine. I think I would rather see bizarre behavior because then you know they are still foggy and unclear about what they are doing. <P>Maybe you are closer to Plan B than you thought. I expect that you will have to think a lot about that and talk to Steve. I'm certainly not the one to say do it. I'm still too uncertain of my strength to clearly follow through with Plan B for me. Although, as I mentioned above, them moving out makes Plan A hard and puts you a little into Plan B territory whether you want to be or not.<P>In any event, buck up. Even with your impatience, you're thinking clearly and have yourself under control. Hang in there.<P>P.S. How can she be so cavalier about missing bedtime with the kids? That is one of our favorite, most special times of the day here. I could almost feel sorry for her because of what she is missing and throwing away while she is in the fog. Almost, but not quite. Oh Oh, there I go again on the kids!

Rick/Larry<P>Sounds to me like you are starting to lose you love for her. This could be a critical time as you don't want to get so low an account that you perhaps start LBing.<P>Try and think if she walked through the door right now and said it was over with the OM and she wanted to make the marriage work. You would most likely be overjoyed and want to start recovery immediately right?<P>It may be a time to have another chat to Harleys and re-evaluate where you are at. Perhaps to protect your love for her Plan B may be around the corner as you have been in Plan A for some time now.<P>Just my 2 cents worth.<P>Colin

Rick,<P>I agree with Exhausted. Plan B time is coming. Take if from someone who wishes they could go to Plan B. I write more but I start venting about my DWH, wouldn't want to ruin anyones day. <P>Talk to Steve, maybe even if you don't do plan B, pull back a little more.

Rick/Larry<P>You and I are in very similar circumstances at present. You know my situation and that my W has been gone since September.<P>I also see very little of her and receive maybe 1 or 2 phone calls per week usually relating to the kids. You and I are almost in a forced Plan B due to the lack of contact from their side.<P>It is difficult to maintain optimism under these circumstances and I personally fluctuate from feeling that it is "all over" to feeling positive that "she will snap out of it at some point".<P>It is difficult to predict the outcome and we all know that this situation takes forever to play itself out.<P>The only real tactic that I employ when in conversation with my W is that I am usually upbeat (it can be difficult to force sometimes) and I am as friendly and helpful as I can be without being taken advantage of. I think the WS must notice our behaviours - it's just so frustrating when they don't acknowledge the fact.<P>Unfortunately, as you know, as long as OM is around there is little we can do to constructively progress the process other than by "planting seeds" by virtue of our behaviour and attitude towards WS.<P>I steer clear of all relationship talks with my W as that served me no good at all during the first 7 weeks of this nightmare. <P>This is only the merest fragment of hope, but in my case I was talking to my W's best friend last week who told me that last time she saw my W she mentioned that I appeared to be "getting on with my life OK and was getting over her" (This is by no means true!)<P>My W's best friend stated that my W appeared to be a little antagonised by this comment and became noticeably subdued for the rest of their conversation. Being over-analytical (like yourself and WAT) I have been thinking whether this is a good or a bad thing - At the moment I hope that it is a tiny good sign.<P>The danger is that she genuinely thinks that I am "over" her and thinks that there would be no coming back. I think the initial 7 weeks pleading and general kindness towards her that I have tried to display since should hopefully let her realise that the door is firmly open.<P>My advice, for what it is worth, is to not get involved in any "us" discussions with your W and, hard as it may be, just resign yourself to the fact that your W (like mine) will be carrying on with OM for some time to come (remember Sue and Greg in SAA)<P>You are the King of Plan A, Rick and we both know that a true Plan B is almost impossible when you have kids. So I would suggest that you Plan A when she is around and Plan B when she isn't (i.e. put her out of your mind as much as possible until you see or hear from her and then do your best to impress)<P>Keep us posted.<P>HarryHat

Rick<P>I'd have to agree with the others. Seems like maybe you are moving closer to Plan B, and maybe a call to steve would help.<P>To me, I agree with exhausted. I simply cannot believe that she would miss her children's bedtimes - or put her needs above theirs - and I'm not even a mother! I guess when you want kids like I do, and you haven't been blessed with them yet, I guess I feel angry with people who take their kids for granted like your wife has been.<P>You have been an extremely good father through this whole thing. You have to be there for your kids, but I think, someday, she will really regret all this time she has "wasted." And, I do think that it is a matter of time before things with the OM fizzle. He maybe playing the part of the knight in shining armor while she's having problems with her arm - but, he is definitely not long-term relationship material. And that's really sad, because your wife - even though she says nothing is going on - is putting all of her eggs in one basket. Somewhere on her trip through OZ, she's going to fall off her bike and land right on her basket of eggs. <P>You're already questioning whether or not you even want her back - what happens when you don't want her back, and you're not there to help her with her burdens? What happens if/when she needs to get a babysitter? Will the OM watch the kids for an hour or so - doubt it.<P>I think you need to look out for your kids. I wouldn't judge her, but it would bother me that she spent all this money on a hair-do for new year's eve, but doesn't want to get those little extras for her kids. Right there, you can see what I've been trying to say for so long - an affair is a purely selfish act. I only thought about myself and what I wanted - I thought of no one else.<P>There's been a lot of talk in the recovery section about not meeting needs, blah, blah, blah. Maybe that's part of it, who knows, but having an affair - is a totally selfish thing, and you're situation just illustrates that so poignantly. I'm afraid that unless your wife stops thinking about herself so much, that things may not look so good.<P>The turning point for me, in recovery, etc., was not that MY needs were FINALLY being met (that's sarcasm - so no flames) but when I started meeting the needs of my H. I started to think of someone other than myself. Sure, she may do things for the OM -but that's really just to keep him hanging on<BR>and that is ultimately for her. Selfish. I was there, so I know and can say that.<P>And, I don't know how you get someone to think about someone other than his or herself. Plan B may be enough of a shocker to give her a jolt of reality. I don't know that Plan B is the answer, but as an outsider, it just seems to me like your wife needs to start pulling her load as far as the kids are concerned. You can't make anyone a good mother, and certainly you don't want your kids to get hurt, but I really do think your wife will regret this a few years down the line. I mean your kids are already having a hard time - they don't want to go to mommie's house - that, alone, would cut through me like a knife. And, I think that's how you can tell that your wife is still in the fog - that her kids are having no or little affect on her.<P>Hang in there, but I think I would have to talk to Steve if I were you. You sounded more than "just a little down" on this post.<BR>

Larry - I'll be the contrarian here and advise you to sit low and wait it out. Keep the hybrid Plan A/B. I think my opinion is heavily influenced by what I read in Private Lies. In so many words, Pittman says that the more bizarre the behavior, the more likely that it won't last. Here's a quote:<P>"It is very difficult to recognize that this craziness and disorientation should not be taken personally. The person who has been betrayed may not even realize that the infidel is likely to return home. It is difficult to survive such a degrading and depersonalizing situation, yet there are advantages to holding on. Nothing the BS can do will affect the romance, but the romance is time limited, and will most likely fall apart. The aggrieved partner might want to be there when that happens. I advise spouses who are waiting for their mate's romance to end: don't try to out-romance a romantic. Don't bother to arouse jealously. Don't try to get your partner's attention, increase your partner's guilt, or threaten some sort of unpleasantness. Just express your point of view and then go off and do whatever holds you together during this time."<P>So, perhaps the best action is no action at the phase many of us are in.<P>Dave

Guys and gals, thanks for the replies. Although I may have sounded "down" in my post, I am doing fine, so no worries there. I just sometimes take a step back and wonder, what should I do next? Blow the whole thing open, or sit tight. So I sit tight. There is just some attraction to sticking a pin into the bubble that she lives in, but I know that it isn't the recommended approach.<P>Plan B would be very hard to implement given our custody arrangement, and I do get the see the kids in most stretches where she has them. So I'm not planning a B anytime soon, although I do think about it sometimes, and I actually almost consider it as a bit of solitude if it should happen. Just a break from all the lies. However, if she walked in today and said she wanted to work on the marriage, I'm all for it. So, I think I can just keep Plan Aing. But the suggestions about B are well received, and I know where you are all coming from. There is always that option.<P>Check out my other post....it is kind of funny. Thanks again.

Rick (and Dave... your post finally got me to write this),<P>Neither one of you know me from Adam... I’ve been coming to MB for over 2 years, and I can definitely say the principles saved my marriage... and I am the betrayer. Details don’t matter at this late point, but the concepts of meeting Emotional Needs and avoiding LoveBusters can do wonders for recovery in the aftermath.<P>I’ve been thinking of making this post to you for about two months, I think... and seeing this line <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Keep the hybrid Plan A/B.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <I>again</I> coupled with this <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I think my opinion is heavily influenced by what I read in Private Lies. In so many words, Pittman says that the more bizarre the behavior, the more likely that it won't last. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> finally gave me the impetus I need.<P>All I can say on the second quote is just ask Chris about that. I know his example is extreme, but still, the Pittman quote is <I>about</I> extremism. Chris’ situation should show you just how long, far and deep the insanity can go.<P>But for the first quote, I think you guys are missing the point of Harley’s Plans for marital recovery. Namely, <I><B>There is NO SUCH THING as a “hybrid” Plan A/B</B></I>. The two plans naturally follow each other, although in some cases Plan B might not be necessary. But they are, nearly by definition, mutually exclusive, and <B>you are hurting your chances for recovery by trying to combine them!</B><P>Let me try to explain how <B>I</B> see the Plans, and how they should work. I haven’t read ‘Surviving an Affair” in nearly two years, and I won’t go back now because it might color this (and I quite simply don’t have time). But Plan A is implemented while your spouse is in the affair, while deep in the fog. You meet whatever Emotional Needs your spouse will allow, and avoid as many LoveBusters as possible. What you are doing is showing <B>and telling</B> your spouse that you realize your part in the state of your marriage, and although the decision to have the affair is 100% that of the unfaithful spouse, the responsibility for the state of the marriage that lead to that decision must be carried by you both.<P>What you are doing in Plan A will likely not be noticed or commented on by your spouse... at least not consciously. Plan A is not for wimps, as I am sure you are well aware. Meeting needs and avoiding LoveBusters without ANY positive feedback while the affair continues drains your LoveBank incredibly fast. But what you are doing is showing your wayward spouse that you and your marriage can once again be the safe haven for them it once was, once the affair ends. If all goes well, your efforts will be rewarded without Plan B.<P>Plan B is, of course, a complete and total separation of you from their affair-driven life. It’s not punishment, it’s when Plan A has depleted your LoveBank balance so low that you are at great risk of not loving them any more. You <B>DO</B> still love them, which is why you want to save your marriage. So Plan B slows the torrent of LoveBank withdrawals due to Plan A to a mere trickle. <B>That</B> is the primary purpose of Plan B... to save your remaining love as long as possible. The secondary reason is to show them what life will be like without the wonderful person they didn’t acknowledge from Plan A will be like. <P>If you’ve been meeting their needs and avoiding LoveBusters in Plan A, it HAS had an effect. You might not see the effect in their fog-clouded excuse for a mind at this point, but you HAVE shown them you and your marriage are a safe haven once the “infatuation on steroids” fantasy of the affair ends. If you HAVEN’T changed, if you HAVEN’T shown them a safe haven via a successful Plan A, all they will see is they’re finally rid of the jerk they decided to cheat on in the first place.<P>The timing is critical, and before K even says it, Steve Harley can help you with that best. Personally, from the little I can see, you are both at that point (or very near). I think Dave might need a bit more Plan A time to overcome that HUGE LoveBuster he recently made. <P>Yes... I am getting to my point here. Once again... <I><B>There is NO SUCH THING as a “hybrid” Plan A/B</B></I> Think for a second about how they are mutually exclusive... in Plan A, you are meeting their needs and avoiding Lovebusters. For example, Rick... taking care of the kids so she can see OM. You know that’s what she’s doing, she knows, but she thinks she’s putting one over on you. In Plan A, that’s OK. But your so-called “hybrid,” sometimes you take care of them, sometimes you don’t. Which one of these do you think she’s going to remember? A LoveBuster at this point withdraws ten times the LoveUnits a comparably met Emotional Need deposits... or a hundred, or a thousand. This happens not only when you are/aren’t watching the kids, but in avery interaction you do/don’t have with her.<P>From the Plan B side, you avoid her for a few days, and the withdrawal from YOUR LoveBank slows to a trickle, as it should. Yet when you see her again, she hits you in the face with her affair, and all the difference in lost time is made up for. You lose as many LoveUnits in one fell swoop (or even more) as you would have in a continuous Plan A. And when you meet her, you meet some of her ENs, so she doesn’t see what it’s like to survive without you.<P>All you are doing by trying to hybridize them is accelerating your eventual divorce. Your Plan AlphaBeta is nothing but allowing her to go on without that pesky spouse getting in the way all the time. Not just having her cake and eating it too, but buying her a bakery.<P>Rick, I have read much of what you have written, but not all. I try to stay away from here, as it brings <B>MY</B> bad choices back to the forefront of my mind. From my limited exposure to your situation (and NO ONE here knows more than 0.1% of what you are TRULY going through), I would have to tell her once more I know she was in an affair, that I know who it is, and that, “you can deny it all you want, but you know it is true, and I know it is true, so I will continue to address it as it IS true.” Then when she denies it again, hit her with one of the emails. Yes, this is a LoveBuster, but not even 1/10 of the one Dave did (sorry, Dave... but you know it to be true, and if there’s one thing the oldtimers around here will tell you, there’s no sugarcoating from the WhoDat camp... LOL). It can be handled well, though, if you do it calmly and approach it with how it affects <I>you,</I> not accusatory towards her. In my mind, you HAVE to do this, as it will then be in the open as far as you both are concerned (personally, I’d negotiate with her to say she was wrong to her friend about the false “girlfriend” comment in exchange for your silence to friends and family about her true OP). Tell her you love her, and that you want the marriage to work. That you’re sorry for your part in allowing the marriage to get to the state where this was possible, but that you’d like to change, and have a wonderful marriage <I>with her help.</I> Continue Plan A if possible; in the face of your evidence it might be tough, but it will also show her how serious you are. But if you do that, make it a REAL Plan A... not this unworkable “hybrid.” If you can’t do that, if you can’t meet needs and avoid LoveBusters in the face of her exposed affair, then <I>that in itself is your signal to go to Plan B</I><P>FWIW, Plan B is very possible with children and custody, although much more difficult, of course. Don’t use that as an “excuse,” or your marital recovery could well suffer as a result.<P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited January 17, 2001).]

WhoDat - I appreciate your insight and taking the time to write. I'll speak for myself. What I called the hybrid A/B seemed the only option for me. I was no where close to depleting my love bank, but at the same time, my wife had no interest in having any of her ENs met by me. There was no opportunity to display my changes without forcing my presence on her which is obviously counterproductive. So my approach became to Plan A when ever I had the opportunity, and leave her alone other times. So the B part of my plan was just letting her go. In your opinion, what would be a REAL Plan A for me? Remember she has no interest in having any ENs met by me. She already sees what it's like to survive without me - all I provide is a Dad for her son and that'll continue no matter what happens. My recent LB was huge, but they have been otherwise non-existant.<P>Dave

Hey WhoDat---very WELL DONE!!!<P>Dave, you asked about your "hybrid" plan. I don't think what you described is a hybrid---it sounded like Plan A. Plan A is to avoid lovebusters and to meet the emotional needs that your spouse is willing to let you meet.<P>If those EN's happen to be take out the trash and a birthday card---then you did fine. <P>Plan B (real plan B) is a no-contact separation until the wayward spouse ends the affair (or does something else that you feel can move you into recovery). No contact really means that you're not meeting any of their needs. There are times where you might lapse in Plan B (I did, for example, when my wife called me at work and told me our daughter was in the ER). But those are exceptions, not the rule.<P>What you describe as Plan B is really just respecting your wife's wishes for you to keepl your distance. It's not Plan B, and shouldn't be labeled as such.

Dave:<P>I was addressing the “hybrid” aspect of my post more towards Rick, as it is in his situation I have seen it used. For yourself, in my opinion (again... limited exposure due to my absence from the Forum) you ARE doing Plan A.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...at the same time, my wife had no interest in having any of her ENs met by me. There was no opportunity to display my changes without forcing my presence on her which is obviously counterproductive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I’m not going to look up the exact quote (although I’m sure it’s here on this website, but after all... linking to excellent quotes is Jim’s job... ), but if your spouse won’t let you meet their Emotional Needs, then Plan A consists entirely of avoiding LoveBusters. By not forcing yourself on her you aren’t doing Plan B (that would also entail no contact even if she initiated it), but rather not LoveBusting <B>by</B> that forced contact... especially if she has requested it.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> She already sees what it's like to survive without me - all I provide is a Dad for her son and that'll continue no matter what happens.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ahhh... but <B>especially</B> in your situation, this is important. In the face of the loss of your other child, I would be willing to bet that looking after the remaining one will be THE most important Emotional Need she has... for the rest of her life. That is a need the OM will <B>never</B> be able to meet, and more important than all the ones he IS currently meeting combined. Even if she isn’t admitting this to either you or herself, you ARE meeting (IMO) her most important Emotional Need, and it’s having an effect, somewhere down in there.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

WhoDat and K - thanks for your wisdom. Please feel free to "not sugarcoat" any time you have an insight or suspect I am screwing up. I'm sure Rick would say the same.<P>Thanks, Rick, for letting us use your post.<P>Dave

Dave,<P>I don't ever think I've been accused of "sugarcoating" around here before...

I have to make this quick, but thanks so much for the wisdom and insight. Gives one alot to think about. I'm always open to any kind of insight regarding this stuff. I think that given the real definitions of A/B, we're in Plan A, not a hybrid. I guess we just referred to the "not pushing them" as the B element, but that doesn't make it a hybrid.<P>WhoDat: Can you help me some more? My focus has been on meeting her needs, and no LBs. I'm always available for her, and she knows that. I offer to do things to help her.<P>I am wondering what part of what I've been doing could be considered part of Plan B. I did write once that I didn't make myself available to take the kids on one evening that my wife wanted me to. However, I've been doing it for 10 months now (even before the A). Given that I already take one morning off each week, and work less hours 2 or 3 days each week, I make up for it the days I don't have the kids. The day she wanted me to take them was the day after I had just done 2 short ones, so I'd have had to make that one into a short one too. Although my boss knows about my situation, I don't want to push it. So on this one time, I said I could not accommodate my wife. Very high odds that she was lying. And finally, I'm also concerned about the instability that is created by transferring the kids between our houses too often. If we stick to our schedule, it is bad enough (because of my wifes weird hours). But adding these impromptu requests and making the kids go back and forth for 2 or 3 nights in a row is not acceptable to me. I also didn't call her back one night when she wanted me to go with her and the kids for a drive, but I had done it the day before and got nothing but nasty stuff, so I didn't do it this particular day. Sorry for the ramble, but I figure this was the "Plan B" part that WhoDat may have referred to, so I just want to make sure that it doesn't seem that I am doing any no contact stuff. I think what I'm doing is pure Plan A, meeting whatever needs I can, and not LBing. Do you see it differently, because if so, I'd like any feedback. I want to do this right.<P>Thanks again and any further feedback appreciated. I'll probably add to this later.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited January 17, 2001).]

Well whaddaya know... found a bit of time before I had to leave. Good or bad, depending on your view of what I have to say, I s’pose... <P>OK; what you describe as occasional occurrences coupled with the constant referral to a “hybrid A/B” is something I thought was happening a lot. Thanks for the clarification, and I hope you can see what I mean by it simply not being possible to combine the two. I will add that taking care of your kids is of paramount importance right now, as they essentially have only ONE parent... one sane one, anyway.<P>Nonetheless, her affair-addled brain <B>will</B> interpret your occasional lack of accommodation as LoveBusters at this point. She simply isn’t capable of thinking clearly right now. I’m pretty sure all my original posts from when I was still dealing with the end of my withdrawal were lost when the board changed over a year or so ago. But there might be something I wrote still over at the ‘Read-Only” forum that might let you know just how insane she is right now. It’s scary, especially looking back on it how unlike myself I was while embroiled in the affair.<P>But Plan A isn’t about being a doormat, either. You can meet her needs (and like Dave, I think looking after the kids has GOT to be a big one, but again... look at how well Chris has taken care of his wife’s girls, and that hasn’t made a bit of difference to her either. But again... she’s a VERY extreme case) and avoid LoveBusters without accelerating the drain on your LoveBank account <B>too</B> much. But of course, that drain will continue regardless. Your task is to meet her needs (which will accelerate the withdrawals) while at the same time not be a doormat (which will quickly bankrupt your account). It’s a delicate and important balance. You CAN tell her what is hurting YOU without it being too much of a LoveBuster (although she will, of course, perceive it as such).<P>That’s why I feel you need to tell her again you know about the affair, this time armed with <B>proof.</B> This will likely be another of those rare instances where K and I disagree , but I think Just Learning hit on why <B>I</B> would do it. Find an email that will be the smallest LoveBuster to bring out, yet will provide irrefutable proof. Present your concerns in a loving way, but concentrate not on how she has hurt you, but on how YOU feel, and at all costs, don’t try to “educate” her. Bookend the confrontation with how much you love her, and how you want to work on the marriage so very much. Apologize, not for her having the affair, but for your part in allowing the marriage to deteriorate to the point where it was even <B>possible</B> for her to allow her Emotional Needs to be met by another man.<P>I think that is the crux of how to keep your marriage going... I really do. That’s a generic “you,” BTW. Once recovery is complete, or even better, before it is necessary (although we are generally too blind to see it until it is too late), make sure and consistently fine-tune your relationship. “Affair-Proof” your marriage by making sure YOU are meeting your spouses most important Emotional Needs, and having them met by someone else simply never becomes an issue. Realizing that as time goes by and we fall into our marital ruts that those needs might change. A marriage needs constant attention, or it will whither and die on the vine. When that happens... well, I don’t need to tell you what happens next; after all... you’re <I>living</I> that part every day.<P>But I truly think she needs to know that you KNOW. Right now, you’ve confronted her, yet she doesn’t know you KNOW... only that you have suspicions. Her affair-addled brain thinks she’s pulling one over on you, and if you KNEW, it might be a different story, and you wouldn’t be so dedicated to “saving” the marriage. If you PROVE to her you know, and yet tell her both before, during and after that you love her and want to work it out, that may shake her up a bit. Likely not, but it will be in there somewhere. Back that up with loving behavior afterwards to PROVE you still love her, and that will do more to get her thinking than just sitting there smugly thinking she’s got you fooled.<P>Back to your questions... I think you are probably doing all you can at this point otherwise. I would try to get that balance between accommodation and doormatness (is that a word? Is now! ) going, but remember that EVERY time you interact with her, it’s being stored away somewhere inside her addled brain. The interaction will be placed on the balance sheet in your account in her LoveBank, and even though the bank is currently in Bizarro World, it’s still being marked down. You just have to be careful and make as many of the transactions as possible <B>add</B> to your account rather than subtract.<P><BR>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited January 18, 2001).]

Rick,<BR> I have been following your story,but have never replied to a post of yours before. I whole heartedly agree with what WhoDat is telling you. Don't know if you saw my last post on how long to stay in Plan A. You might want to go back and read Dr. Harley's article on the site entitled "What is Plan A and Plan B".There he states that when Plan A is prolonged you run a very real risk of "rewarding" the WS for their bad behavior. Timelines for coming out of the "fog" are also related to when the A was "exposed" to the light of day.<P>I worry for you that since the truth of what is going on with your wife has not been brought out into the open that you are prolonging the agony you are enduring. You have rewarded your wife's selfish behavior by accommodating her for a very long time and she's not even convinced you even really know what's up. She has absolutely nothing to lose at this point by continuing to do exactly as she's been doing all along. IMHO you have absolutely nothing to lose and lots to gain by exposing your wife's affair to the light of day. You've been such a trouper,your kids are so very lucky to have such a special dad. The mention of your wife trying to twist things and telling people that you've got a girlfriend is not good news at all. WhoDat gives really good advise on how to tell her you know and do it in the best possible way. I think that telling her will make your Plan A efforts look all that much better to her when she realizes you've known about this all along. Without the exposure of the affair she could just be running around thinking she's doing a spectacular job of playing you for a fool and the whole situation stays stagnant. You're sounding more and more like you are growing tired of this mess but you need to realize that you are the one holding the key to moving all this in a different direction. Like I always say,more of the same is likely to get you more of the same. I say do something different! Have you ever checked out the info on the Divorcebusting site? There is much good info there. Wishing all the best for you!

Thanks for the additional advice WhoDat and mthrrhbard, as well as K. And again to everyone else.<P>I'm processing everything I read, because as you know, I'm often reassessing what I should be doing. I have told my wife in no uncertain terms that I know that her and OM have been lovers since the summer. There is no doubt that she knows what I think, but you are right, I'm quite sure that she nevertheless thinks that I have no proof, so she'll be able to cover it up forever. I think this is magnified by the fact that he isn't committing, as far as I know, because of his parents (that is the formal reason). Hence, she might resolve to herself that they'll be just friends in the long term, so why admit anything. So the idea of producing proof for her is appealing.<P>I will think about this, and talk it over with Steve, because the idea of altering the path is appealing. There are a few reasons why I haven't done this yet. First of all, big LB. Second, is the custody issue and stability of the kids. I'm in our house, and I want to keep it for at least 6 months for the sake of the kids. I've put myself on a tight budget in order to do that. Ideally, I want to stay there indefinitely. Time will tell. My wife could get more $$ from me if this got nasty, no question there. Also, suppose she got nasty, she used to be a stay at home mom, and thus could immediately go back to that role, get more $$ from me, and maybe try for custody. Now I have lots of witnesses that she essentially abandoned being a mother since about March, but realistically she could probably get custody, despite the events of the past several months. I don't necessarily think she'd do all this, but it does result in me "coasting" a bit, just to leave things stable and somewhat predictable.<P>It isn't so much that she'll be nasty just because I bring her affair up again, it is more that I installed snoop software and read everything she ever did on the computer starting near mid August. I have lots of stuff, phone records, emails, bank statements, etc. Needless to say, that would be a HUGE LB for someone to know that they had their privacy invaded in this way, even though I felt I had to do this to confirm my suspicions that she did have a relationship with this idiot, and that it started before her request to separate. I think in her mind, because PA didn't start till after that, she rationalizes that it is OK, and not an affair.<P>The other thing that stalls my revelation to her is that we do spend time together with the kids, and although she is void of much emotion to me, I like it for the kids.<P>So I end up with all these thoughts spinning through my head, and then I read about how they'll continue to live a life of lies until the A wears off, so I figure I can just wait it out. I know that I'll probably tell her what information I have at some point, it is just a matter of timing. Maybe that is sooner than later. I also used to not want to spill the beans because monitoring would stop (change her password). But I don't care about that anymore...I know what I need to know.<P>So, I'm going to watch closely in the short term, and talk to Steve about all this. I'm compiling questions. I definitely appreciate all the advice. Hopefully you can see what has been behind my hesitation to be a bit more vocal about proof, whether right or wrong. My bottom line is the kids, and the effects any actions can have on them. I know I can deal with the A and our separation continuing, so that is one avenue...just let it ride and hope the fantasy cracks. Of course, I can expose everything, and hope that it doesn't send her into nastyville, but rather ends up in the eventual recovery of our marriage.<P>Any other thoughts always appreciated.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited January 17, 2001).]

Rick,<P>Do you have any proof that wouldn't involve the major snooping issues? You mentioned phone records were these something that you could have just come across. <P>When I had to prove to my H that yes I knew he was in an A & that is was a PA, I lost the ability to access his email. I would love to be able to do that again, and then I might know what was really going on in this mess that is my life.<P>Funny thing, the OW broke in his email account a yr. later, you think he would have learned.<P>Good luck, I feel as if you maybe coming to across road. Your kids are so luck.<BR>

Rick,<BR>I just want to warn you that the denial of the betrayer can be very deep. I thought I had proof too. My H insisted they were just friends. Even when I showed him the proof he continued to deny anything more than friendship. It was very frustrating to me... all I finally got out of him was that maybe she felt more than friendship... geez.<P>I think I could have cought them in bed and he would have told me they were just friends. Just want you to be prepared.<BR>Lora