Rick37, worthatry, Harry Hat<P>I am going to suggest something that will likely get flamed.<P>However, I suggest you loosen your belt, open your trousers, and check to see if you still have testicles. I can't believe anyone would allow their spouse to walk over you like y'all are doing. How could they ever respect you? You are nothing but a doormat.<P>Your spouses have proven themselves to be selfish, lying tramps. Is this really the quality of person that you wish to be with. I don't think so. If in time they change then you can re-evaluate. However, their change is their prerogative, not yours.<P>This is my suggestion:<P>1. Develop a plan to get your spouse out of your life with minimal financial and emotional impact. Do so rationally (not emotionally - don't get angry) and methodically. If you have children include their interests in your plan. (not to the extent that your only option is to remain married to their mother) <P>2. Consult with a professional (attorney) on the feasibility of your plan.<P>3. Execute your plan with minimal consultation with your spouse. This is a plan to protect your interests, not theirs. They have no business knowing your motivation. By continuing their adulterous behavior they have superceded you marriage agreement with a new one in which one's own interests are paramount.<P>4. Always be friendly and courteous (see Scout Law) but do not compromise your interests to keep them happy.<P>5. Proceed with your new life.<P>This is more productive than coming here complaining about how your wives are treating you like crap: how they lie to you and then run off to have sex with their new boyfriends. More productive than analyzing every aspect of their behavior to see if their is still a chance they love you. Would you treat someone you love (or even hated) this poorly?<P>I am sorry to those whose feelings I hurt by this opinion. I believe in marriage builder principals. But I also believe in some level of self respect.<P>Bob<BR>

I agree. I do love my husband, and I do want things to work out. But not at the expense of all my self respect. Not if the only way is for me to take 100% responsibility for the marriage breakdown, and them 0%.<P>When my daughter grows up, I want her to see that mommy loved her daddy very much, and when he left, she tried everything to get him to stay, tried to get him to go to counseling with her, tried to get him to file for seperation, not divorce.<P>But when he refused, when the marriage and family wasn't worth it to him, she dried her tears, held her head up high, and went on to make the best of the situation and was a great mother and a stronger person for it. <P>I want her as a woman to know that is important to not take abuse, but to stand up for your rights and what you believe in. I believe that a child should have both her natural parents living in the same household. However, that choice was taken away from me by my husband. <P>I'll take my share of the responsibility for the breakup, and I do wish we could work things out, but I refuse to grovel at his feet and show my daughter that I accept being treated like less than a human being by another.

Well, thanks Bob. I respect your opinion and wish you luck in fixing whatever your situation is. I believe they're all similar on the surface, but the devil's in the details and how much of a doormat or how much personal sacrifice we make may be too much or too little in someone else's situation. For me, I'm giving my wife as much compassion I can muster because I think she is sick. We lost a child after a long illness and this crisis is inextricably linked to her affair. Now, how much of a doormat do you think is too much for me? I have a remaining son who watched his brother die. What impact do you think it will have on his life to have his remaining family fall apart? This is why I bend over backwards and follow the plan I have developed. I am getting a tremendous amount of respect from those close to me, including my wife's family. Self respect? - I am proud of the father I was to my dying child and proud of the father I am today. Someday, I hope to regain all of my wife's respect - how much respect for their spouse does a WS have? Yes, I complain about how my wife treats me like crap on this board, but this is part of my plan - vent here instead of at people at work or at my son and seek wisdom from those who have gone before me.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited January 22, 2001).]

You know Bob, I remember you from last year. If you believe in the MB principles it sure in hell doesn't show!!<P>These guys have rough enough time as it is.<BR>They don't need you calling there wives names, I'm certain they have to live it. I did and last year you told me basicly the same crappy advice you gave these guys. I didn't listen to it then and I'm suggesting they don't listen to it now.<P>How can one rebuild a marriage if the commit every <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Buster</A> in the book! Your advice is that very thing, one <B>HUGE</B> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Buster</A>.<P>Sure what you say has merrit. That is if you want to get DIVORCED!! If you want to save your marriage then I suggest trying these ideas espouced on this site. It didn't save mine but I gained a lot of dignity and character by doing it. Your way, Bob, is the childish easy way out. These guys obviously have a more profound respect for marriage than you do.<P>So Rick, WAt, HH...trust the old timers and those that have a better understanding than Bob does...He pulled the same crap on me last year.<P>Yes Bob...I just FLAMED YOU<P>Bill<P><BR>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited January 22, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by WilliamJ (edited January 22, 2001).]

WilliamJ: Thanks for the support. I know that most veterans here favor some flavor of what we have been doing.<P>engineer_bob: I do not mind that you posted your opinion, and I respect that everyone has their own. However, I have my own reasons for wanting to follow MB principles. Sure, my wife is behaving in a ridiculous manner, but I do know that regardless of what happens, I'll be able to tell my kids that I did everything humanly possible to try and save my marriage.<P>The facts do exist that spouses in an affair behave in this ridiculous manner. There are success stories on here from people that followed MB and saved their marriages, and are very happy that they did.<P>Time will tell what becomes of any of our marriages, but we all choose to do it in our own way, tailored to our circumstances. Everyone has different advice. You've got to use it as you see fit.<P>You don't know what my wife endured in the past, and all the reasons why I'd continue to hold out in hopes that her fog clears. I have my own reasons. The easy way would be for me to divorce. Would my kids want that? I don't think so, so I'll stick it out. It may never work anyway, but I'd rather say I did my best.<P>

Rick, You are such a gentleman. You have/are doing your best.<P>WilliamJ,<P>From what you wrote Rick & CB you are a very wise young man (yes young I read your profile). Sorry that MB didn't work for you, (your W's loss)but you have learned so much & now a very wise man. You will someday make some lucky girl very happy.

WAT, Rick, WilliamJ -<P>You guys are not doormats. I respect and admire your integrity, your faithfulness, and your "family-values." I'm kind of glad engineer-bob stopped by, I think you all needed to reaffirm WHY you are putting up with this. Sometimes, coming here, to vent is good, but also come here to reaffirm WHY you are doing this. Much strength and patience to you (WAT and Rick). WilliamJ - again, even though it didn't work out for you - it really is your wife's loss.

engineer_bob<P>I am late in replying to your thread as I am in the UK and was not awake when you started it.<P>There is nothing I can really add that hasn't been said more eloquently by Rick37, WAT and WilliamJ.<P><BR>Without pleading sympathy, WilliamJ hit the nail on the head when he expressed that our mutual situations are hard enough to go through without having to read nonsense like this.<P>I too have my own reasons why I think my W is worth waiting/fighting for, including (but not limited to) my profound love for her and the welfare of our 2 young children who I am presently bringing up almost single-handedly. I have read of success stories on these boards and can see similarities between my own situations and those of others who do bother to come on here and vent, explain and to seek and give advice.<P>I cannot find anything constructive or inkeeping with MB principles in what you have to say and cannot understand why you found it necessary to say it.<P>You are naturally entitled to your own opinion, it is just a pity that you have chosen the MB Boards rather than the "5 quick steps to a painful divorce Board" on which to express it.<P>If you don't like our venting, analyzing or "complaining" then please don't bother looking at our threads.<P><BR>HarryHat

Even though I wasn't named, I'll chime in, since I feel I have a bit in common with WAT, Rick, and Harry Hat. We're not doormats, Bob. <P>In my case, I've made it pretty clear to my W that I'm moving on with my life, and that if that's what she wants, she can keep doing what she's doing. I'm remodeling the house as I see fit, dating someone new, and spending time with new friends at new places. The papers are already filed, we're just waiting for a court date. Would I take her back if she changed her mind? Yes. Not because I'm so helplessly blinded by love that I've abandoned all reason, but because I believed wholeheartedly in my vows, even if she didn't. If, at the end, she's willing to give it one more shot, I would say yes. If I didn't, and there really WAS a chance to save my marriage, I could never live with myself. <P>At the end of it, if and when we divorce, I want to be able to say "I did everything I possibly could to save the marriage." If I can say that, then I can live with being divorced.