This is a question that arose in one of my earlier posts. When a woman has an affair, which is worse to recover from, an EA or a PA?<P>My wife is having an EA with someone at work and I really don't know to many details. She did tell me that he will not leave his wife and that she won't have a relationship with a married man. But....could she be holding out hope that he still might leave. She said that she has feelings for him and he for her. So how do you deal with the Emotional side of it if she won't let me meet her emotional needs?<BR>How about it ladies?<BR>Mike

Mike,<P>Well, I'm no lady, but based on what I've read in Harley's "Surviving and Affair" it depends on what her most important emotional needs are. On the other hand, her most important ENs may dictate to some degree which kind of affair she has. If sex is at the top of the list, then an PA would be tough to recover from. Get it? By the way, if you haven't read SAA yes, YOU NEED TO! Buy it, go to the library, whatever. But get it today.<P>Also, again I know how you feel. My wife just won't let me in. I was reading an article Harley wrote in response to a spouse who was saying that she felt a lot like our spouses do. "I like him, but I don't love him. I've been trying for years but I don't have anything left to give. He's a great guy and father, but why should I try?" Harley's response was that the guy, based on his wife's description, hasn't failed because of any lack of love or caring or trying. He's failed you because of a lack of skill and understanding. We haven't had to tools and understanding of how to make ourselves the husbands our wives need. What kills me (and you I'm sure) is that we've got them now. We know how to make this a great marriage!!!!! But our wives won't try. Frustrating to say the least. But, I'm still hopeful. My wife is a strong and dedicated woman. I just hope she can recommit to her dedication to our family.<P>Good luck my friend, and keep in touch.<P>------------------<BR>Bill<BR>~~~~<BR>Remember the truth that once was spoken, "To love another person is to see the face of God."

As usual, the answer depends a great deal on the personality & EN of the person M or F, like wld is saying.<P>I personally think EA carries more fantasy, because the WS can imagine anything they like about the OP's capacity as a lover. An EA can be "making love" with words, as in the older meaning of the phrase, when make love meant the compliments, first touches. The PA may make the EA more intense or throw in the reality of bad hygiene or habits.<P>My counselor told me "A woman desires access to a man's soul (EA) and will give her body easily when that is provided. A man desires access to a woman's body and will provide access to his soul to get it."<P>I don't know it that's true all the time, I don't know how a one nighter would fit in, but I have seen it in action.

For a woman, I would think that an EA would be much more difficult to recover from. I don't know about most women, but I must feel deep love or affection and commitment to a person before I will get physical with them. So in my case, there must be a very strong emotional attachment. I would think that an EA without a PA would be easier to get over, because the physical aspect of an A only draws you more into it emotionally and seals the feelings of "commitment" to the other person. Just my two cents.<P>belld

Ditto to Lor's and belldandy's post.<P>Cathy

I agree with the above comments. I think once a woman gets to the physical part of the affair it's another step further into the emotional part of it. From my past experience I was deep into the emotional affair before I could cross the line and make it physical.

Well, considering I had an EA that lead to a PA. . .maybe I can lend some insight - at least from my situation.<P>For me, there really is no difference between an EA and a PA - both can be equally as hard to "recover" from. As Lor mentioned, the EA is very fantasy-based, and I found it very difficult to let go of the "friendship" aspects of the A. I mean, the thing I missed most was not the physical stuff, but just "talking" to the OM as you would talk to a good friend. So, the emotional side has been hard, but when it went to a PA - well, that's when I really began to feel sleazy, deceitful and worthless. It was bad enough that I relied on this OM to fill some of my EN, but when it went physical - I really felt like scum - that the beautiful fantasy - the "ideal" relationship was now something ugly.<P>When the A went physical - that's when I confessed everything to my H. That was ten months ago. I'm really "over" the OM now, but, for me, it was hard to get over both parts because it was hard on the emotional side - because you felt like you were losing a friend or something. But, on the physical side, I think I had a difficult time because it really made me feel sleazy and dirty.<P>So, to me, both are hard to recover from. I don't know how hard it would have bee if the A stopped at an EA and did not go to a PA. I have to think that it may have been easier - as far as guilt - because even thought he EA is wrong, once it went to a PA - it was like the immoral relationship was consumated - I couldn't un-do the physical things that had happened. IT's like not only my mind was involved, but I actually got my body involved. I mean it's one thing to think something - but when you cross that line and actually do it, I think that's worse.<P>Now, for a one nighter, PA with no EA - I still think that would be hard for a woman - at least for me - to recover from - just because of the meaning I attach to the act. <P>To me, I think a lot depends on the person, but for me, both were equally hard to recover from.

To All,<BR>You people are great! THis is helping me understand a lot of things. My wife has been having an EA with a doctor at work. I believe she wants the divorce because she doesn't want to have a PA while she is married. Good for her at least on that part, bad for me because she is willing to throw it all away for some fantacy. As far as she told me 3 weeks ago, the OM has said that he is not going to leave his wife. Do I believe her...I don't know. She has been honest as long as I have proof and she has no choice but to be honest. So now that the other OM has supposedly said that he won't leave, is she still harboring hope that he will, and is this the reason she is still seeking a divorce. She says that the affair is only a symptom of a bad marriage. She is right in the respect that I haven't been meeting her EN's, but now I am more educated on this topic and am willing to do so. I hope she comes out of the fog soon!<BR>Mike

Mike - Keep trying to draw her closer to you. As long as the OM won't leave his wife, that's good, but she could still give in (like I did) and have a PA.<P>About the best thing you can do right now - try to be her best friend. Try to put yourself in her shoes (I know it's hard), but be there for her to talk to - like a good friend. Just before my EA went physical - I was almost looking for my H to help me out of this situation. All along I knew what I was doing was wrong, and I was constantly torm between what I wanted and what was right.<P>At one point during the EA, my H and I were out (please note that he knew nothing was wrong until I told him - after the PA). But I actually asked him what would happen if I had an affair. And he, jokingly said - hey if that's what it takes to make you happy, just as long as you don't leave me. Well, in my warped little world, I saw that as the green light I needed to go ahead and do something - that I wasn't 100% sure I even wanted to do. At the time, I wanted my H to say something like - if you ever had an affair, I don't think I could live with that - I love you too much and it would hurt too much. I guess I was expecting my H to be my conscience or something. I was actually trying to get his help - but I wasn't very good at it.<P>So, if you can get your wife to open up to you - about what she's feeling - that's a very good thing. Sure, it probably hurts beyond belief, but that's one way that you can try to meet your wife's ENs. Just be her friend right now - that's about the best advice I have for this morning.<BR>

Hi SKM,<BR>I am trying like crazy to be her friend. She makes that so difficult sometimes. I have such a hard time when she wants to talk about divorce. Right now she says that she is doing what is best for her and that divorce is what she wants. I wish that I could get her to talk about anything else besides that.<P>She wants to be around at the house(she says because of the kids)and wants to stay to put them to bed, but then leaves. I guess having her around for that time is better than no time. She does say that she can be my friend, but that is it. Is that better than nothing??<P>Does that keep my foot in the door? There are so many different questions that can be asked, and this situation is so sensative that I don't want to blow it any more than I already have!<P>Thanks for the good advice, I certainly appreciate it!<BR>Mike

Mike -<P>Try to keep your "foot in the door" as best you can. My H and I never really talked about divorce - I mean, I thought about leaving home for a while to "find myself," but looking back on it, I'm really gald I didn't move out - even temporarily.<P>Even though my H and I are doing very well right now, it was probably only a year ago that I was thinking bout moving out. I mean, I was so confused. I knew that I loved my H, but I just wasn't sure that I was "in love" with him (and I'm sure you've heard that line.) The thing with me, I never once thought I would leave my H to be with the OM, but I did doubt that my H and I would recapture those "in love" feelings that you get when you are first married - when love is new and exciting. I thought, at best, we would just be good friends who happened to be married.<P>Right now, your wife has only one train of thought - divorce. It's like she's already made her mind up, and is doing everything she can to live up to that decision. Just try to give it some time. Try to approach things rationally - because she really isn't right now. I think in another post, you talked about your wife and how she's the one who wants the divorce and wants to see how things will "work out" - since you do not want the divorce - I wouldn't avoid the issue, but I agree with you when you said she has to be the one to follow-through with this. In the meantime, just try to Plan A, treat yourself well, and have hope. Because anything is possible, hope for the best.<P>If you can try to direct the conversation away from divorce and ask her what is was about your marriage that was "bad." See if she can pin-point things, and then try to address those things. The good thing that's on your side is that the OM does not want to leave his wife. So, she may not have the fantasy relationship that she really wants. The problem is is that she is still around him, still has contact with him, and is still very much in the fog. She won't listen to anything you say - you have to hope, though, that the affair dies a natural death - and that you'll be there to pick up the pieces. So, that's why it's important not to LB during this time - you don't want to push her into the arms of the OM for support - you want her to come to you - like a friend would. So, I know it's hard, and you deserve so much better, but right now, you really can't expect anything from her - she has her mind made up.<P>But that doesn't mean that you have to give up - quite the contrary.

Mike, re. "Now, for a one nighter, PA with no EA - I still think that would be hard for a woman - at least for me - to recover from - just because of the meaning I attach to the act."<P>Actually, my H also had a one-night stand in addition to the EMR with the XOW. He had the one-night stand when he was living with her, I'm presuming. You know something? This does not phase me in the least. He just got drunk, had sex (protected), and she was out of there the next morning, and there was no information exchanged. It doesn't please me, but I find it absolutely non-threatening, because I know that he was not nice to this woman, and that he was just using her.<P>I told my H that my problem was not with the PA with the XOW - I actually told him how I understood that he was sexually frustrated and may have needed someone to use. So he did. My problem, as I told him, was that he was nice to her. I would have preferred that he treated her like a sex object and left it at that.<P>belld <P>

Hi SKM,<BR>It is nice to have a new perspective on all of this. When this all blind sided me in October, I never had a clue that she was unhappy, let alone wanting a divorce. When she moved out 2 weeks ago it was awful. <P>I now know what my part was in the demise of our marriage. I am working extremely hard trying to rectify the situation. I have learned so much in such a short period of time. <P>I hope that some day she will be able to give me a second chance. I have not even really had time to think about the OM except to know that he played some small part in this. I am trying to be focussed on trying to get my wife to come home.<P>You guys have been great with your support. I had my second session with Steve today and he helped a lot too. I now at least have a plan to follow and some idea of what to expect. <P>The only thing that worries me is that my wife is so damn stubborn that sometimes I wonder if she feels that she has gotten herself in so deep that she can't turn back. She exhibits all of the clasic signs of a WS, but sometimes I think that she doesn't have a normal thought process and might feel like she has to carry through with her request for a divorce...just because she said she wants one. <P>It is so frustrating to think that she unloaded all of this crap on me in October, and then wouldn't let me even address the issues. It doesn't seem fair. <P>Thanks for your help though, it keeps me going.<BR>~Mike~

Mike<P>The stubbornness issue is something that also plagues my mind (in relation to my W) and also a few other posters around here also. <P>It is almost that they are now running on pure momentum from their initial comments and actions (talk of Divorce / leaving the home) and are now (deliberately?) digging a bigger hole each day that will make it harder to consider coming back.<P>The only inkling of optimism that you can take is that if W is behaving so out of character at the moment and is completely oblivious (or thick skinned enough) to not notice the upset she is causing, then she will likely be just as oblivious to the obstacles of reconciliation and may feel it is OK to just walk straight back into your life without warning, the same way that walked out.<P>(I don't know if that makes any sense?)<P>Please check out posts by Rick37, worthatry, cjack, myself and others. Your situation is not unique and we all face the same daily worries and fears - it sometimes just helps to realise that you are not suffering alone and can gain useful advice and support.<P><BR>Regards<P><BR>HarryHat<BR><p>[This message has been edited by HarryHat (edited January 26, 2001).]

That is right Mike. It sounds to me like he wants to have his cake and eat it too. It is all so depressing to think that we the WS, just trash a relationship based on fantasy, and false ideas. It is very upsetting to me that I too threw away a wonderful marriage that was based on lies and deceit. <P>I know that it will be hard for you while she is in the midst of the fog, just keep trying to meet her EN’s and get her to talk to you. Hopefully, she will read this board and see how devastating this type of behavior is. After reading this post for almost 5 months, I am so sick and depressed over what I did. I thank god each day I wake up that my H and I are still together.<P>Why was I so willing to throw away my marriage? I can only speak for myself, but I told lies to myself. I told myself that he really doesn’t love me. The only thing the Om did for me was he was someone that I talked to. We could complain about the people we worked with, and he didn’t criticize me. Not to say that my husband did that, however, my husband would try to encourage me to look at all the positive things that I had and not to focus on the negative. How I wish I would have listened to him. I would give anything to take away what I did.<P>I am so grateful that we are working on rebuilding the relationship. I realize that all my husband did was try to help me. I am so sorry for all the pain that I have caused. <P>PJ

MBTRK, I do think that some personality types set out on a path and never look back. Whether it is stubbornness or just not wanting to face something that might be unpleasant about them or just being empty headed, I don't know.<P>My h & I are 2+ years in recovery, but I see this tendency in him about lots of things totally unrelated to marriage. <P>I have come to believe that some people make decisions without any reasoning process at all. They just seem to react to the moment. I am sure if you asked them to state the reasons for many decisions they make in life, they could not give a sensible answer. Is your wife like this perhaps? I wonder if this is typical of other WS in other areas of life. My h got involved with ow who is very intelligent but is also well known for this same tendency to leap without looking.<P>My h is always ready to make a choice if asked to, but his choices seem to be based on what he wants - not on reason and common sense. He often just reacts. For example, he ALWAYS thinks his favorite sports team is going to win now matter how sucky their season may have been so far.<P>He did the same thing with his ea. He approached ow because he was attracted to her. She responded, and he never looked back at the consequences to me, children, career, community standing, etc. He also never looked forward past the next immediate step in furthering their relationship. He was planning to marry her, but he had never asked himself how he'd support himself let alone 2 families OR how in he!! ow would get out of her marriage and lifestyle with 3 children in tow.<P>I wonder how typical this general reactionary personality is in the WS. Strangely, although they act without really thinking, they are really stubborn when questoionned about those choices. I guess it is hard to admit being that empty headed.

Hi Wesse,<BR>My wife is exactly as you say. She makes a decision based on hoe her heart feels and not how it will effect anyone or anything. She leaps before she thinks. She digs herself a hole and then says that she is doing the best thing for her. Who cares about anyone else. <P>To add fuel to the fire she is seeing a councilor that is "helping her see that what she is doing is OK as long as she is doing it for herself and is honest.<P>It is going to be hard to combat that type of thinking. I am always in a state of trying to accomodate her and be her friend, when all I want to do is kick her in the a** and rtell her to smarten up!<P>Thanks for your input!<P>~Mike~

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbtrk: <BR>I am always in a state of trying to accomodate her and be her friend, when all I want to do is kick her in the a** and rtell her to smarten up!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well Mike, that is exactly how it is in our house these days. As I said before, my husband was always trying to help me see the light, which I will relate to the word accomodate, and now he is kicking me in the you know what. Tough Love.<P>Sometimes, that is the only way it can work. I may not like it sometimes, but for me, everyone just gave up on me, he hasn't.<P>PJ<BR>

Hi PJ,<BR>Tough love... a pretty hard concept to initiate when you really love someone and all they can do is self destruct in front of you and tell you that they never really loved you and thatthey want a divorce.<P>I am trying to be optimistic about this whole thing, but she makes it very hard to keep a positive attitude.<P>I pray to god every night that the worms that are running around my wifes brain will some how be driven away and I will have the woman that I married back.<BR>~Mike~

TO All,<BR>As I sit and reflect on my part in this whole mess, I think about when my wife finally came clean. She lied up until the time that I provided her with specifics about the OM. <P>You know...the fact that she had an EA really didn't bother me as much as the fact that she wants a divorce. THe fact that she has given up on me and that she feels that our relationship isn't worth saving. I can forgive her without hesitation for the EA. It's the fact that she isn't even willing to try to repair our marriage that I am going to have a hard time forgiving...<P>I feel like yesterdays newspaper that she is casting out with the daily trash because she has gotten tired of it.<P>~ Mike~