Hi all...<BR>I have read a lot about husbands returning to their homes once the fog lifts or the affair ends, but haven't read much about wives returning to there marriages once they have left. <P>Anyone have any insight??<P>Mike

Mike, you know my story. I never left home, and my H and I are working on our marriage together. I don't know what the statistics are, but I think each situation varies. I know you are worried right now, about what will happen. But, try to focus on you, making yourself a stronger person. Because, ultimately, you cannot change the way your wife thinks, you cannot change the way she acts or the decisions she makes. You can only change the way you think, the way you feel, the way you act - and hope that she sees that what she could be losing is far greater than what she stands to gain from leaving.<P>For me, I ended the affair for a number of reasons, but the main reason was that I could not imagine living my life without my H in it. He is my best friend, and we don't have any kids right now, so, if I were to leave, I don't think we would have remained friends at all - and that thought terrified me. I tried to picture how I would feel if my H were dead - not to be morbid, but that's how my life would be, if we got divorced. Everytime I thought that way, I bursted into tears. I loved my H, I just wasn't in love with him at that time. But, as we worked our way through recovery - that all changed.<P>I seriously think your wife is in the fog, so nothing she does will make sense to you. she is only thinking about herself, what makes her happy - and she's doing those things that she "thinks" right now will make her happy. She's making a lot of life decisions when things aren't really that clear. To me, it's kind of like driving in the dark with no headlights. She doesn't know where she's going, and can't see the way to get there, but she knows she's driving and that makes her happy.<P>To me, that's why I think couples who are married - not only should they have pre-marital counseling before they get married, but they should also be required to go through a year of counseling before you can divorce. And, I mean couples counseling. Her counselor is only seeing one side of this.<P>Since she relies so heavily on her counselor's opinions - is there anyway that you can go to a couneling session with her? I think, if it were my H, I would want the counselor to hear my side of things. right now, he/she is doling out advice based on one person's side of the story. Is there anyway you can make an appointment to talk to her counselor - either separately or together? Just curious. . .

Hi SKM!<BR>I truly love reading your responses! First of all, my wifes councilor is a woman...who apparently believes that the individual is more important than the family. Steve compares it to a singles tennis coach trying to coach a doubles team. Same game...different strategy.<P>You are right, I am worried about the outcome...no I'm petrified. I am a firm believer that children need both their parents at home. When my kids ask if mommy is ever coming home, it breaks my heart. I want to say...ask her...tell her you want her to come home. What I usually say is "say your prayers, wish upon a star and daddy will do all he can so that maybe someday that will happen. This has nothing to do with you, we both love you very much" I then usually have to leave the room because I have a hard time holding it together.<P>SO I guess that I wish I had a crystal ball that could give me some answers. It just seems to me that from what I have read on the forum, more men than women return after leaving. It is probably different if people decide to stay.<P>I haven't approached her about attending a session with her. She did say lst week that she would talk to Steve and that she would go to counciling with me so that I could "come to grips" with her decision. If we do go...I want to make sure that this councilor is pro-marriage and does couples counciling.<P>I agree with the counciling before divorce. And I would take it one step further. THere needs to be some deterant to messing around with another persons spouse.<P>Thanks as always ...<BR>Mike

Mike,<P> I have read some of your posts and find your wife's belief in her counselors advice disturbing. If I stood in your shoes (which I kinda have), I think I might be asking myself what diagnosis the counselor has made to dispense such advice. Has she told you what the counselor has determined the problem to be? <P> My view on the subject of male WS vs. Female WS is not what I would consider promising. I think a larger percentage of men come home closer to complete than most women. Michelle Warner Davis in part describes this as the "Walk Away Wife Syndrome" @ <A HREF="http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks5.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.divorcebusting.com/forumlinks5.html</A> . She seems to be mostly speaking to the apathetic view that unhappy wives can harbor for their husbands. Personally I also believe that our society makes it harder for unfaithful wives to easily return to a marriage. For instance and unfaithful husband is normally not shunned by his peers for having an extramarital affair. Unless it is with the wife of one of his friends and in that case even unaffected friends stay clear of him for he is not only betraying his wife but a friend as well. For the most part our society edifies male sexual prowess regardless of their matrimonial state. Through our modern history male infidelity has been mostly tolerated with little personal labeling of the man. Females with the same history of adultery have a whole list of derogatory names and are considered dirty. I believe my wife has some deep concerns about what her family and peers (work) would think about her if she did not leave me. During her affair, she defended/marketed her actions as being justified because I was a horrible violent person. (BTW- couldn't be farther from the truth) What would coming back to me say about her as a person to these other people?<P>Our society engrains this double view of sexuality in us from an early age. Think back of your High School days…A guy that slept around with anything he could get his hands on was a stud. A female that only slept with her boyfriend was a still easy.<P><BR>These are just my rambling thoughts. I hope they can help you somewhere along the way.<P><BR>Mike[/B][/QUOTE]<P>

mbtrk-<BR>I'm sorry for your pain. I know I would be asking these questions too. The uncertainty would drive me crazy. I don't have any answers for you. But my own observation is that there are many more female BS on the site than males. Therefore your perception that a greater number of WS Hs come home may be only a result of the skewed cross section of people who come to the forums. Perhaps not helpful, but an observation from the scientist in me.

mbtrk:<BR>I am a woman whose husband had the affair and came home but he had an affair with a married woman who went home first.<P>The OW in my case got caught and left her husband (because she didn't like the fighting) - she picked up my H and they decided to end their marriages and be together. She left her kids behind, two boys.<P>She went back in one week, left again, stayed with my H for another four or five days, went home again, and so on and so on for three months - finally my H ended it and I don't believe her husband realizes the extent that she cheated. But she is home now, acting like nothing ever happened, they never went for counselling and she told me they never discussed her affair again.<BR>How is that possible?<P>Anyway, to answer your question YES woman go home after an affair<BR>-my mother had an affair and came back to my dad<BR>-my aunt had an affair and tried to come back to my uncle but he had met someone else by then<BR>-my cousin had an affair and tried to go home again but it didnt work out when she found out she was pregnant with lovers baby<P>So woman go home just as often and possibly more so than men. The reason that there are more woman on here is simply that woman are more open to talking about thier problems, most men keep to themselves.<P>I know the OW husband in my case, never talked to anyone about his wife's infidelity - just continued to act like nothing was going on - still does for that matter - my heart goes out to the man it has to hurt him as much as me, and I almost had a nervous breakdown<P>Hang in there

Mike,<P>I think that your wife's willingness to talk to Steve is good. I would try to arrange that. It might not have an impact right away, but his perspective cannot be ignored forever. Might put something in the back of her mind.<P>I think that your situation is on many of our minds lately. Even though I'm going through crap too, your wife trying to achieve a whirlwind divorce to pursue something that is clearly a fantasy, is so disturbing. I wish I could talk to her and magically straighten her out, but I can't do that with my own wife...so much for that.<P>If she will go to a counsellor in person, try to find out which ones practice SBT, which I think stands for Solution Oriented Brief Therapy. The book Divorce Busters is based around this philosophy, and I think it would focus on the fact that swapping spouses is not the answer. Just a thought, but I'm not qualified at all in this area. Take whatever you can get with regard to counselling, but as you know, get the right one.<P>Do you know if what your wife says was told to her in counselling, is actually true? It sounds so crazy.<P>

Mike, I think that's good, that she's willing to talk to Steve - or even go to a counselor of your choice (couples counseling). Again, keep pursuing it from the angle that she needs to explain to you why divorce is the only option. Let her "help you come to grips with this," and maybe she'll find that divorce ISN'T the only choice.<P>Hi Infidelity had some very interesting comments - very well thought out. I don't know if society would judge me more harshly than a man or not, but I really don't care what other people think. I may have fallen, but my H and I are surviving - and that love, the confidence that comes from surviving the worst possible thing that could go wrong in a marriage - well, what other people, how other people label me just doesn't matter - now. But, coming out of the fog, being in withdrawl, I would have to agree that I felt like the only woman in the world who had an affair. Call me naive, but I thought I was the lowest person on the earth. I don't know if that's becuase I'm a woman - or just that I did something really wrong, realized it and felt miserable for having done it in the first place.<P>I think society - the media in particular - tends to glamorize indifelity (i.e, temptation island). And, you pretty mush can't go to a movie without there being sex and violence. Beofre the affair, I really didn't think too much about this stuff - I went with the flow - never really understanding that it was rubbing off on me. Somewhere along the lines, my own morality was replaced by the "general consensus" that what I was doing was okay. The OM was telling me that we could be "discreet." He tried to convince me that it wasn't really cheating unless you got caught. For me, I think (I'm starting to ramble) my values, my standards, my religious beliefs eroded. Now, I'm not saying the media caused me to have an affair - I'm not blaming them, but it also made me think that hey if they can do it in the movies and it seems so romantic - than maybe it isn't wrong. Again, it was a messed up time for me.<P>Like Hi Infidelity said - I definitely felt like a slut - but so should any man who did the same thing that I did. Whether a man does it or a woman does it - it shouldn't matter. I don't know - ramblings.<P>Again, I think a person has to break through those "stereotypes" - and not really care or compare yourself with others. Keep pursuing the counseling strategy. . .

Many thanks to all who have responded...<BR>Now for the update. I left home yesterday after putting a note on the counter with Steve's # so that W could call to set up a time to talk. When I got home last night her response was that she would NOT talk to Steve, phone counciling was not for her, she needs face to face. She also said that she was tired of being emotionally abused by everybody because they can't accept her decision as being right for her. She wants to be respected and if people can't do that then she won't talk to anyone.<P>Sounds to me like the guilt is getting to her! Her parents ask how she can break up two families, her siblings ask the same questions.<P>So back to her letter. She said that she didn't want me to talk to her about anything but the kids, did not want to have any conversations with me, and didn't want me writing or calling to talk to her unless it was to deal with the kids. This is from a woman who less than a week ago said that she would do anything to help me understand why she wants a divorce.<P>I personally think that she is wacked! Or ...something happened. The only other option is that her councilor is not getting the full story and is giving her information based on her perspective. <P>Any ideas??? THe roller coaster just sped up and it is beginning to be like a runaway train. I think I will try to stay out of the way for the time being. I think the men in white coats might want to come take her away!!! <P>Mike<P>

MBTRK,<P>Plan A says all you can do is respect her wishes without confrontation. Sometimes you do need to get away to do a good Plan A otherwise the men in white might start looking @ you. If you do leave be sure to let her know your whereabouts and how to be contacted. Maybe take some time to do something you enjoy but haven't done in a while or take up a new hobby that you've never found time to do. <P>If this topic is an open subject of discussion with her family members as you have indicated, I would ask them to not alienate her by pounding their views. Right now the most influential person in your wife's life is the OM. Having her want to break ties with her family will only amplify his influence. <P>SKM - I agree with you wholeheartedly that it's just as bad for a man to do the same. I wasn't trying to say our society's stereotypes are right. Just merely how I feel the rest of the world views this stuff. <P><BR>Good luck,<BR>Mike<BR>

Hey HI,<BR>My wife has been out of the house now for a month. I don't know how much contact the OM and her are having. I'm positive that they must be talking on the phone and I know that they see each other at work on a pretty regular basis. <P>The rumors at the hospital were that he had moved out of his house. I know that of last Friday, that is not true. His wife is trying to keep him home. I pointed her in the direction of MB and told her that this was a great resourse. I haven't heard from her since. <P>As far as her family goes, she doesn't talk much to them as thay don't agree with what she is doing. She has a circle of friends that are being supportive. One of which has been through the exact same thing and is now married to the OM. Great role models she has.<P>I try to not get discouraged and be patient. It has become a lot harder to do now that I know a divorce is pending. I was hoping that I could get her to postpone anything for 6 months, just to let the dust settle. No chance now. She is a woman on a mission. She feels that she is not having an affair, even though she has told me she is madly in love with the OM. If it's not a PA then it's not an A. <P>She figures if the divorce goes through in a hurry, it will make everything legit. No marriage, no affair. THis is the mentality that I am dealing with. <P>I hope that she comes out of this, but with the two of them still fighting to be together, it still is like it is a secret. The thrill is still there. <P>Will this never end...<BR>Mike

Mbtrk,<P> If it's any help my wife/Ws left for two months and returned around Christmas... She took counseling with the Harleys for a while but since has decided it's too expensive. We're going day by day and there's ups and downs... She says she's committed to making our relationship work and that's good... I do feel a little skeptical but I suppose that's normal... Believe me if my wife can turn I think anyone can.. She was as whacked out as just about anyone I've read about here... I thank God it didn't take her too long to come out of the fog... Luckily the OM that she fell for was a player and she saw this quite quickly. I'm thankful in many ways he wasn't a decent person because it may have taken longer for her to see through the fog... I hope your situation takes a turn for the better... Crick

mbtrk,<BR>I think it was in Why women leave their Men, it says that women are usually the "keepers" of the relationship/marriage and once they feel that they have done everything possible to save it and it has failed then they bail.<P>My x said some of the same things. She said she was planning to leave anyway, and just because om came along that made it harder for me to accept. <P>She said her counselor that she went to after I gave up, told her that our marriage was over so that gave her the courage to follow through on the divorce.<P>This was the same counselor we went to 3 times trying to save the marriage. We quit going after I found out she was back seeing om again. I'm not sure how much more she saw the counselor after we quit going together. Probably the 5 visits we had left.

Hey Crick,<BR>My wife is like a stubborn Mule. Once she gets her mind on something, she is relentless until she gets it. THis happens with things that she wants for the house or with things that she feels she wants to do. <P>I wonder if someone like that would ever come home even if they wanted to. She might lose face because she has said so many negative things since she wacked out. I hope that she comes to her senses before it's to late. Maybe the doctor will decide that he wasnts to stay in his marriage...who knows.<P>I pray ever night for the strength to make it through this, for my kids to have their childhood stay intact, and for my wife to have the wisdom to realize that what she is doing is wrong and come home where she belongs.<P>Today I felt the calmest that I have felt in a long time. My wife called from work to say goodnight to the kids. When I talked to her she said she was going out for something to eat and then to a movie after work. I wanted to ask who she was going with...but bit my lip and just said have a good time! Whether she is with the OM or with some other people really doesn't matter anymore. <P>She is out on her own and there is nothing I can do. She wants a divorce, and all I can do is stall it for as long as possible, hoping that she will come to her senses before it is too late.<P>Mike

Ahh, Mike, I know how you feel! You say:<P>"My wife is like a stubborn Mule. Once she gets her mind on something, she is relentless until she gets it. "<P>My STBX is just like that...she's convinced herself we were wrong from day one and nothing will ever bring us back together...sound familiar?<P>The thing you need to realize is that this has nothing to do with YOU. I don't want to lay blame here, but it is all HER fault! I have come to realize that I was all the husband any wife could ever want. I did everything I could, but the problem was not with me, it was with her! If I had been a saint..if YOU had been a saint, it would make no difference...same outcome. I sat with my STBX helping her fill out divorce papers tonight: finalizing what was hers and what was mine. I realized as I was talking to her that I'm really not the bad guy. I didn't do anything to precipitate the affair. The onus is all on HER. <P>You have to come to the realization that you could be a combination of yourself, Mel Gibson, Tom Cruise, the Pope, and Ghandi, and she STILL would've had the A, she STILL would be filling out divorce papers and seeing a lawyer, and STILL would want out...<P>ITS NOT YOU! YOU are not the problem!<P>In answer to your original post, I can't give you a positive example (in 7 days I'll be divorced), but I CAN tell you that whether or not she returns has no bearing whatsoever on you worth as a person.

Mike<P>I've been away from the PC for a while otherwise I would have replied earlier.<P>Your question really struck a chord with me and it also appears to have done so with all of the other "forgotten men" on this forum.<P>You think your W is stubborn, you should meet mine - I think its a common attribute that we all feel about our WS W's.<P>I have been in this nightmare for about 5 months now and have relied heavily on this forum for advice and above all stability of thought. Along with Rick, WAT, cjack, crick etc. etc. we are all in very similar positions but each with our own variations - yours been a W who wants a speedy D, mine with a W who I never see or communicate with other than for 5 mins. each fortnight.<P>My own opinion is that I don't think that you can tar all WS W with the same brush and I (we) all hope that our W's will not be so stubborn as to never return. I think that the critical point for all of us will come when (if) OM is no longer on the scene and our W's are "on their own". In the Harley book (SAA) it was at this stage in the case study that the WAW (Sue) thought about returning home to John.<P>However, we have to consider that OM may be on the scene for quite some time and may in fact never leave, and worse still that he may but our W's still do not consider returning and instead seek somebody new.<P>As a tactic for getting through each day, what (usually not always!) works for me is to try and mentally distance yourself from your W and ignore the possibilities of what she may be doing and with whom. Beleieve it or not, after a short while the less frequent contact that you have the easier it can get and you are also giving them "the space" that they crave.<P>Regards<P><BR>HarryHat<BR>

Hey CJACK,HH<BR>It seems to me that there were some things that I have realized that I probably didn't provide my wife with. Were they severe enough to warrant an affair. NO WAY!! The problems that we had were so trivial that they actually were bad habits that could have been easily corrected. I accept responsibility for her discontent. I accept no responsibility for her unfaithfulness. It is cruel, cowardly and destructive to everyone but the two bozos involved.<P>One day early on my wife was telling me about a co-worker (who is male) who is very open with his feelings and they talk about everything. This is not the OM. She said that he was a wonderful human being...she looked at me and said "you're a nice guy". I said excuse me??? I think I have treated you like a queen for 12 years if I am a nice guy, and you are the one cheating, what does that say about your integrity?...<P>She is focussed on one thing right now. I hope that she realizes that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. I hope that she realizes this before it is too late for us. On the other hand...she may never fully comprehend the severity of her actions. She may be the type of woman who is never content to stay with one person for very long. Her brother said to me the other night that in ten more years she will be in another crisis. <P>She said to her mother about 3 weeks ago..."who knows, I may be married 3 or 4 times before I get it right". As you can see, she is really in it for herself as the rest of you can attest. It is just too bad that she couldn't see what she had, be mature about it and be satisfied with that and work on the present to make it better than it was. <P>My heart remains broken, I question my worth sometimes as a spouse, but know that this affair is not my fault. I trusted her with my heart and soul for 12 years. When you give someone your heart, you trust that they will know how to keep it safe and not step on it.<BR>When this happens it makes you question everything that you believe. I am getting better. I am getting stronger. I am going to survive this disaster. I am going to be a better person because of this. If it is with my wife...only god knows now. She was right when she said that I deserve better, and deserve to have someone love me the way that I should be loved! I want it to be her but, if it's not, it will be someone else.<P>You guys on this forum have become like an extended family and I look forward every day to hearing from you. Thanks for being there. It's not over by any means but I am going to survive this just like everyone else. Our spouses are the ones who have to get up every day and look in the mirror and live with what they have done. If they can do that and feel no shame or guilt...I don't know if we want them around anyway...<P>Mike<P><p>[This message has been edited by mbtrk (edited February 09, 2001).]

Ditto to mbtrk on all points, except the self-realization stuff. If things don’t "work out" then I just don’t think I'll have too great of interest in her view of herself in the world around her. Just as long as it doesn't affect the kids.<P>Do you guys ever remember your pre-marriage dating years? Did you ever end up on a date with a broken person? You know the kind where thought of being close to them is just plain scares you or the other kind of date that came pre-packaged with their own soap-opera. Over time that's the kind of feeling I'm developing when I hang out around the wife. I know I play a large roll in the things that are broke and have a large script in the soap-opera these days by my continual instance on developing no-contact guidelines and info-disclosure. I can't seem to move forward form this point without them. Without marriage or me in her life she might very well be a completely normal functioning person, I don’t know. What is the actual value of relationship without healthy boundaries??? I find its value is about as volatile as a NASDAQ based portfolio. Somedays after a tremendous recovery from near oblivion it seems to be beyond golden and the other days when all indicators are red it has all external appearances to be a large collection of dogs that were extremely overvalued when purchased. Unpredictably cyclic!<P><BR>Sorry for venting,<BR>Mike<P>

Hi All,<BR>I guess the uncertainty of all this just gets to me some days. How do you know if your WS is actually in the fog, or if they just have decided that it's time to move on???<P>I know that this is not the woman that I married. Unless I was totally out of it and blind...I know she was in love with me not too long ago. THere is no way that any person can fake that type of emotion that I have seen in her. I know that there is someone else.<P>Couldn't it be that she just fell out of love and is not in a fog and just wants to move on? I would hate to think that she could do this to me and be somewhat sane. <BR>I would hate to think that our rel;ationship was so bad that it caused her to want out and I didn't see it. I would hate to think that she could give up her family for some unknown thrill and not be messed up.<P>The doubts of all this just keep coming.<P>Mike

Mbtrk,<P> I could tell you horror stories of some of the things my WS did while she was in the FOG... Believe me it is the Fog. My Ws insisted we get a divorce and even said to me even if we do decide one day to be together she still didn't want to be married.. Some logic eh? I calmly told her that divorce is final.. I would not see her anymore after a divorce.. I offered her legal seperation to give her the freedom to see who she wanted... After all what's the difference other than it gives them the ability to come back? She is the most stubborn individual I've ever met... We were talking about this the other night and I said to her if I had agreed to divorce, knowing now that you would have regretted it, would you ever have admitted this and came back? She said no... She was too proud to ever show she needed me and would have just put on the face and never showed anything... I'm really amazed at how she see's this as a strength... Perhaps this is how your Ws is(sounds that way) and if you could somehow talk her into seperation it may give her the opportunity to come back without feeling like she's crawling... Perhaps she'd take it and perhaps not but it couldn't hurt to try... She'd have all her freedom to do what she wants but still have the opportunity to come back should she decide differently... Luckily for me it only took about 1 month for my Ws to come clear of the fog and begin to come back...Crick