I had dinner at my wife's place this past weekend. I felt so uncomfortable sitting at the table with her, and I really don't feel I can play the game anymore. Denial of the affair, lying, and now she openly has OM around the kids, saying "what is wrong with it?". She does this under the illusion that they are friends. Those who don't know, his parents will not allow him to be with a married woman with kids. So that is his excuse. I do think that ultimately, they plan on being wonderful friends (how warped after being lovers), but suspect that the "lovers" status goes on in private. Not sure.<P>Anyway, this is just getting to be too much. I have no respect for her, and I don't really want to be part of any aspect of her life. I might as well just move on and have my time with the kids (50%) and make the most of life without having to be subjected to her lies, coverups, idiotic lifestyle, immaturity, selfishness, and on and on. It isn't what I wanted, but I can't control it. Have I Plan A'd too long? Possibly. I don't see a great liklihood that she'll come back. She is so phoney, it makes me sick inside. That is why I just don't feel I can spend any more time with her. It isn't that I can't implement the facade and be fairly normal. I just don't want to anymore. It is more the lies, coverups, and phoneyness that get to me. If she just admitted everything and said she thinks she wants this other life, that would be much more manageable. But she has not had the decency and integrity to come clean with me.<P>I still would attempt reconciliation, but you can see I am just disgusted with her. She'd have to get some help and be totally honest...and the odds of that are slim.<P>There are some aspects of life that might be a reality check (besides the obvious - financial, fog clearing, missing her kids, knowing I've taken some control, not having me to talk to at all, etc.), including the following:<P>- I'd copy OM so he would probably find some truths, because I'm sure he probably thinks we mutually separated and that it was before it really was. I'd like to call him an adulterer in the letter! <P>- House will hopefully soon be in my name only<P>- She will learn that I'm in contact with our couple friends that she confided in. She actually told them in June, 2 weeks after telling me she wanted to separate, that she was nuts over this guy, and that "her mother was happy for her and had them over to dinner". The part about her mother was complete lies. Anyway, she went ballistic when I said I was going to meet our friends. I've been in touch since, but she thinks I haven't. She'll go nuts when she knows I've talked to them.<P>- I'll change some aspects of our insurance (more to kids - less to her)<P>- Maybe include some evidence as a Plan B bonus (should I do that???)<P>- Her fantasy life thinking that she has me in it to do things together with the kids will be shattered. She thinks this is how it should always be. Sorry honey, if it was mutual, maybe, but this is different.<P>- I was rarely ever mad at her, and we hardly ever argued about anything. But if we did, it drove her crazy and she could never stay mad at me. She hates being in that state. Even while separated. So me cutting ties and taking control might get to her.<P>- Hopefully she'll realize that someday the kids might find the truth, instead of this facade she thinks everyone believes.<P>It is getting harder not to say "look you phoney fool, I know everything about your affair and your lying, you abandoned the kids for months while "in love", you tore our family apart to satisfy your selfish needs, and I can't continue to have any involvement with you because it is sickening how you deceive me and think I'm dumb enough to believe it. Have a nice life with slimeboy."<P>I'm just not amused anymore. I feel bad that the kids won't get the family time anymore, but I didn't choose this did I? I probably need to not see her to let it go? I feel that I could theoretically continue to see her, but I just don't want to. She is so fake.<P>Her warped view is that I should be accepting of whatever she does in her life, for the kids (ie. OM, future marriage, etc.). I'll get grief over a no contact thing for sure, but I'll just have to ensure she is told that this was her choice, not mine.<P>I haven't updated too much lately about how I feel, so this is it. My other post mentions logistic problems with Plan B, but I think I must be almost there. I just want the house in my name first (which is in process now).<P>Thanks for reading this long post.<p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited April 01, 2001).]

Rick,<P>Well it sounds like you may be ready. I did it and have been doing it for 3 months. I never did the letter tho.<BR>We were not pretending to be a family tho once his A got hot and heavy he did a complete 180 he withdrew completely.<P>I don't have any advice for you as far as the exchanging of the children go. My sis is here with me right now so I can be gone when he comes.(when he comes)<P>Your wife truly is in denial, maybe something more drastic will help to wake her up a little. The fact that she expects you to hang out with her and OM is absurd.<P>Can I ask why you have not even in the most loving way let her know you are aware of her conduct? I dont know how you have done it this long.<P>You sound like you are doing well in all other aspects tho, Hang tight and keep me posted.<P>Diana

Rick,<P>Talk to Steve, in the mean time work on your Plan B letter.<BR>Sounds as if you are ready to move on with your life. Is there any chance in Canada of having OM not around your kids as long as you are still married? <P>This LB fariy would be happy to come & whisper truths to the OM's parents. :

Rick,<P>Once again, I'm speechless at how similar our situations are. I suspect that we are married to the same woman...<P>Just like your W, after moving out, my W started pushing for dinners together (as a family), activities, etc. While I was in Plan A, I would have probably been blind enough to view these as signs of progress. Nowdays, I see it exactly for what it is: an attempt to gloss over the events of the last year, and to "move on".<P>I have decided that my W is a classic conflict avoider, and these people need to have everything go their way, including the need to have everyone validate them. I did that to the hilt during my Plan A, but just like you stated, I am now sick of the BS. I am not going to play "friends", I am not going to pretend to the kids or to friends that "it just didn't work out".<P>Most importantly, I am not going to accept that it's "OK" to just run away from your responsibilities, commitments, and obligations. Sure, legally she can get a no fault divorce. But, to pretend that it is a "no-harm" divorce is absurd. My two kids will not have a family to grow up in. I don't care how much we "play" family, the kids are getting deprived of their basic right. And I hold my W personally responsible for that.<P>Anyway, Rick, this is the kind of thing that finally pushed me into Plan B, when I realized that my W was starting her revisionist history campaign, to create this vision that this is all just peachy; sure things "didn't work out", but hey, let's forget it and move on... I don't think so! And since I could see LB's all over the horizon, I bailed into Plan B... Although she is apparently preparing a rebuttal letter to my Plan B letter; I guess she missed the point .<P>AGG

Rick,<P>I am guessing but I think the thing that is getting to you is your knowledge of her affair and the fact that she doesn't know that you know. It has poisoned your ability to Plan A. So I guess it is time for Plan B. However, the purpose of Plan B is to remove yourself from the relationship until such time as she gets rid of OM and decides if she wants to try to rebuild.<P>It seems to me, absolutely essential that your Plan B letter include some of the incriminating emails. She cannot remove OM from the scene if she is just "friends". He must be established as the OM in her mind and yours or it seems Plan B will be fruitless.<P>Just my opinion.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Hi Rick - I dont think I have responded direct to you before but I have watched you Plan A from afar and admired your strength. But, feeling like you do, I think it is about time you went to Plan B. Speaking from experience ie 12 months before I discovered MBs, 4 moths of Plan A, a sort of hybrid Plan A/Plan B over Christmas and during January I have finally gone to Plan B. Believe me, it was not easy at first but I am feeling much better for it. And that is what it is about - looking after you - protecting yourself from the further pain and hurt - I just could not go through one more day or evening of playing "happy families" - I feel such a sense of relief to be free of the oh-so sweet but in-your-face deception. I could go on and on but I wont. The biggest difficulty I have is that H does not understand "no contact" - he used to say he had no contact with OW - or that he "just talks to her when she rings" - all lies - but now, he rings or tries to contact me almost every day - despite two Plan B letters. Rick - I would give the world for us to be able to recover but, in my case, I think we have just accumulated too much baggage - and I am SICK TO DEATH OF THE WHOLE DAMNED MESS!!. <P>Thinking of you <P>R

Rick,<BR>I think from some of your last posts, that you've been moving steadily towards Plan B. IMO, loosing respect for her is probably one or two steps away from loosing love, so I think it may be time for you. It is very sad that your W cannot see what she has in you.<P>I also think you should include your proof of the A, carefully though. Although there is nothing funny about this, it makes me smile to think of your W & OM reading what you know & how and thinking about their reactions. Maybe you could also copy OM's parents, since they seem to also see what a butt their son is being!! LOL!<P>Take some time to work on your letter, talk to Steve. You have been so strong, surely it will have an affect on your W to have one of her "pilars" (the most important one, if she would just realize) ripped from her life. Take care & move slowly.

I think you should copy the OM with your letter, and yes, include the evidence.<P>What would Steve say about copying the OM's parents?<P>Personally, I think I would.

With you all the way, Rick. I was also considering throwing in some printed evidence, but it would end my source - I may do it anyway, since Plan B theoretically separates me from the whole mess and I won't access this source anymore. I'll also copy her parents and OM - maybe even OM's wife (her former best friend). I plan to discuss this with Steve if I can get an appointment this week - otherwise, it'll have to wait until after spring break.<P>Dave

Hi Rick, I was trying to remember if you had phone conversations with S Harley about this. He is probably the person to help you if you are ready.<P>It really does become difficult once you lose respect for them....and the rest of the love goes quickly. <P>I find that after 15 months, even my kids (at least the two older ones (10 12) have built up a wall also. All of us are tired of it...<P>ANd whoever said that these classic conflict avoiders want validation from everyone is right. And they get it. Somehow they always end up as the "good guy".<P>I'm even losing his family over this, though they are being forced into the situation even though they don't like it either. H, OW are pushing the baby on them.<P>It is very sad how many lives are altered...and yet, in my case, and probably many cases here, the "involved' are too self-absorbed to notice it at all.<P>And unfortunately Rick, the denial CAN continue. I think the "classic" conflict avoider is able to do that. I mean there is even physical proof here (a baby) that was concieved a month after his moving out, and he still denies. Almost pretending that that whole situation is completely separate from this. It is truly an altered sense of reality.<P>Plan B is difficult with small kids... especially at first when they want you to talk to their other parent. My kids are aware I am getting a D and that we are moving so they don't even try anymore, but it was hard.<P>I used to just go upstairs when he was on the phone and if he asked to talk to me, called down that I was busy and would need to talk to him later. Pick up and drop off's can also be difficult, but you can make your self scarse either physically, or mentally....just pull back and distance. I think you just don't want to be emotionally available to her.<P>Steve advocates the true plan B where you have someone else handle all contact between the two of you. I just didn't have anyone here to do that. So he did have contact with me, and did try to engage me...I just kept getting better and better at distancing myself.<P>Good Luck...it is truly a lonely situation when you are the only one trying. It is very difficult to communicate with someone who has built up such huge defenses.

Rick<P>I haven't posted in weeks but have continued to follow your story closely (in addition to WAT's)<P>I don't think anyone can have Plan A'ed better than you and you have been a real inspiration to me - you were the first person to respond to my first post.<P>I am obviously no expert and am in a gradually deteriorating Plan A also, I just wanted you to know that you are a real hero on this Board and deserve far better than what you are getting.<P>What comes around does eventually come around and hopefully your Plan B (if you go for it) will start to shake some sense into your W and lead her out of the fog.<P>Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of British Luck and will continue to follow you postings, I just wish that I felt more qualified to offer advice to get us out of our respective messes.<P><BR>All the best<P>HarryHat<P>

Rick, not all techniques work with all people. some people have to be hit in the head with reality. There are those who would suggest you force her to face reality. That would mean telling her just what is going on and that its obvious to anyone. THat also, means telling her parents the truth,and also telling slimeball's parents as well. Maybe they should know most of all. It just might be that they could save his emotional life. He is definitly on the wrong road. In short make her respect you. You have gave it your all. Its not working. As they say, if you keep doing the same thing everday you will keep getting the same stuff back everday. good luck

Thanks for the replies and support.<P>Goochy - good to hear from you again after a bit of a layoff (wish things were better for you). I have told her that I am aware of her conduct, and presented a modest amount of verbal evidence that made it obvious that I know things, but nothing but denial from her. She figures she has masterfully covered it all up I guess.<P>sing - I will talk to Steve soon. Good suggestion, but I don't believe that there is any way to prevent OM/kids unless there is a danger.<P>AGG - I'll be anxious to hear how it goes for you. I like the "revisionist history campaign". That is what my wife is doing. Man are they similar.<P>JL - many things are getting to me, one would include what you mention. But I don't place a huge emphasis on it. I've done fine thus far, but just don't feel I can play the friends game anymore given her continued lies. It just seems to be time, not for one reason, but for many. Time to not have to be tangled in her web of lies.<P>Rosebrook - I can understand everything you say. Sick of the whole mess. Baggage. And "oh-so sweet but in-your-face deception" is a good description. Even tonight, got a call telling me she "has to attend a work awards show Wednesday...would I babysit for 3 hours". I said no, because I have to put in a long day at work to make up for other slack days when I have the kids, AND I knew it was partly a lie. Sure enough, called her boss (my friend) and she does not have to attend. She can if she wants...thats all. It is like the boy who cried wolf. Now I don't believe anything she says. Everything has an element of lying.<P>bitsy - It makes you smile, and gives me some strange pleasure to think they might be reeling a bit to find out what I know. I believe OM layed the law down that no one should ever find out. So if he knows that I snooped and watched the whole thing unfold, perhaps it will irritate him that she let this happen. Just a thought. Who knows. I'll be taking it slow...need the house in my name first and a few things tidied up before I go for it. But I look forward to not having to talk to her at all. Weird isn't it.<P>BrambleRose - now several votes for copying OM, and parents. I'll have to think about the parents one. Could be thought of as malicious. But I'll ask Steve. I was thinking like an apple a day, maybe an email a day to OM, each with a different days emails from Aug - Dec. However, that would violate the no contact stuff...guess I have to just get it over with in one letter and leave it at that.<P>WAT - I'll be anxious to hear what Steve says to you. We're on a similar timeline as we already know. Mind boggling stuff.<P>tootrusting - thanks for your lengthy post. All relevant information and good to read. Altered sense of reality is right.<P>HarryHat - Glad to hear from you (but wish it was improving for you). You are much too kind with your words to me, but thanks. I'd be interested in hearing any updates you ever have. Guess it hasn't changed much?<P>joell - Reality might be the requirement. Same thing everyday = same results...I think I read something like that in Divorce Busters. Definitely can be true. Time will tell what happens and how some reality affects things. Telling slimeballs parents seems popular. Man, would that stir things up. I can't predict what the outcome would be from that.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Rick37 (edited April 02, 2001).]

Rick,<BR>I, as many here, have been following your story. I can relate to losing respect and looking forward to not talking to spouse. I worry that I haven't given it enough time, It's been since Jan. 2nd that I knew what was going on and Jan. 20 since I had the evidence. But, right now, with him not willing to do what's necessary to end contact with "it", I'm getting pretty disgusted with H, losing the urge to "work it out." As recently as this morning, I drew away from him, then:<BR>Him: What's the matter?<BR>Me: The same thing that been the matter for months.<BR>Him: Well, it takes two to tango (meaning that I was part of our problems too).<BR>Me: Yeah, the two of you did tango!<P>As long as he's still seeing her (at work, they only talk business) regularly, HOW CAN I STOP BEING ANGRY AND HURT, HOW DO YOU STOP THE THOUGHTS OF THEM TOGETHER?<BR>The only hope seems to be to QUIT CARING ABOUT HIM AND WHAT HE DOES TO STOP THE PAIN!!!<P>Am I not trying hard enough, Rick? It sounds like you've gone at it with much more sticking power than I seem to be able to maintain. I also have a young child and my husband is living very nearby so it seems impossible to not see him.<BR>I appreciate what tootrusting says about how to deal with this. If I decide that I can't overlook them spending time together still, maybe I can follow that example. <P>I wish for you the strength you need to do what you need to for you!<BR>

GAJ - Don't know how Rick will respond to you, but here's my take on how to cope. Read everything you can about infidelity. Be sure to read Private Lies, by Pittman. Browse the stories on this forum. After I digested all this stuff, I acquired a mindset that I should not take this personally. I am to blame for contributing to the marraige problems that set the stage for the affair, but I didn't make the bad decisions. I was willing to look for resolutions to our marriage problems - not run from them behind lies and deception. I am on the moral high ground! It's not all rosey on the dark side - these infidels will sooner or later pay the toll. I began to have pity for them. I feel like I know more about what is going on inside their heads than they do. They are lost sheep, defiantly rejecting their conscience and anyone who tries to help them see the wrongs they have committed. I can see through them, and so can you. Sure it makes you mad - you're normal! But, you have the power that comes from the knowledge of knowing what's going on. You may not have control - yet - but you know their weaknesses and you have a strategy. You will win in the end.<P>WAT<p>[This message has been edited by worthatry (edited April 03, 2001).]

GAJ,<P>WAT pretty much covered it. All I can add is that after doing as WAT described, reading all I could, talking to Steve, and realizing I couldn't change it right away, I asked myself, "what do I want". My answer was I want my marriage. Essentially you have to compartmentalize the sickening aspects of what you know (ie. the tango), realize that they are heavily under the influence of "love", like a runaway train out of control, and just focus on the end goal, not what is happening now. Reading about WS that now look back and shake their heads at what they did helps tremendously, because you see how they can come out of it and regret their actions.<P>So you have to consider your spouse as being like a drunk, and thus you can't reason with them. You don't learn to live with it overnight, it takes time. And there are always days where you get angrier than others. But you can do it. How long depends on each persons tolerance and their situation.<P>It is not easy, but knowing you are doing the right thing, and being morally right, helps too. At least you can look back in the future, and know that you did everything. If it doesn't work out, your spouse can't say the same thing. They say it now, but they will know deep inside (and do now) that they ran, instead of working on the marriage.<P>Vent to us because everyone understands here.

WATs response is right on the money... and even knowing that there is not a lot you can do about them. All you can do is be the best YOU you can be and know you did everything you could. Being angry only effects us anyway (and the kids of course)<P>Rick, and you know...perhaps the fact that your wife still denies the "relationship" is a good sign. She must be questioning herself somewhere inside. Still confused...still unsure of what she wants. Plan A will still have a positive effect.<P>

Rick-this just struck me as really funny regarding telling OM's parents. . I think you should call him & leave him a message that says (in a little kids singing voice):<P>Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. . I'm tellin' your Mom on you!!<P>Sorry, just getting ready for work & this popped into my head & made me laugh!!!<BR>