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Dear Sadandlonely:<P>Well, my question was asked and answered and I for one can accept your answer. Surely the amount of thought you have put into this matter is indicated in your posts. Yes, a marriage can reach a point were there is little reason to go on...perhaps yours has. I agree with some of your feelings about missing an emotional connection with your wife as I have experienced that too..and I too have wondered if this man I married was capable of having an intimate relationship with anyone...not just a sexual relationship but an intimate, opening yourself up and letting the other person really know you type relationship. No, to me he was just all physical..but without any real emotional depth. I say this because since being here I have learn that I was seeing things from my perspective...a very limited one based on my own narrow view of how a man should express love and emotions. I've found that our thought processes are circuitous and they feed upon themselves. One rationale building upon other until the picture is complete...the picture of the other spouse..the uncaring, unsupportive, un....un...all the uns in the world...all colored in by me. I could not envision my being wrong or failing to take anything into account...until I was faced with a world of others here telling me I was mistaken...not wrong, just mistaken...and on that mistake I had predicated my whole view of how things should be. <P>You've built up a good picture for yourself of your wife, too. I wonder how much fallacy there is in your interpretation. Certainly enough to wonder if you could just be a little mistaken. But you don't want to be wrong, you want this marriage to end...and you're looking for reasons for it to do so. I wonder how much of the thought you have given this matter was done before you had the EA.<P>I know now why you are here...you are a very moral man wrestling with your own devil...but the devil is inside you...the devil is you.<P>Yes, you want this other relationship because you feel it gives you what you've been missing...but it's easy to say that when the relationship has not stood any test of time...a few brief encounters and long discussions (during which each of you presented your best faces) are not enough to base a decision like this on. <BR>Only time will tell whether you failed to make the right interpretation about the OW. This is the reason As are useless as a method of mate selection...by their very nature they don't allow you the type of constant interaction that can give you a true picture of what this person really is...but the best foot forward, idealized, rose-colored glasses mindset is more conducive to setting OW up as "soulmate" then down in the dirt, this is really the way it is, everyday marriage. I will bet though that that best foot forward closely meets your expectations of a perfect mate. And we all have one..based on our life experiences from childhood.<P>We all want that perfect mate...molded to our own specifications...but as you said...humans are messy...and sometimes our specs are too narrow and unrealistic...or just plain unworkable with the material we have. So perhaps we need to readjust our expectations to reality and work a different way with what we have. <P>You seem to feel that devoting thought and reason to this matter will deliver you an answer that you can live with...but this is not a matter that you can settle all by yourself by reasoning your marriage away. There seems to be a big lack of imput by your wife...have you just shut her out and quit trying to understand how she feels...really understand...not just give it your own interpretaion.<P>Ok, I think you have done a good thing by coming here...just do one thing for us...really listen to what is being said here...look at what your major complaints are with your wife...ask some questions about how others feel about those complaints...get some input from someone else...you know what you feel...listen to what others feel...really listen with an open mind...don't just read and then try to convince the other person that he's wrong...no one is all wrong...and no one is all right.<P>You don't have anything to lose right by investing some time here...and alot to gain. <BR> <P>Faye <P>

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Buffy.....Let me ask you the same question I ask others but can't seem to get answered to often, why is there the mindset that a marriage must be saved at all cost? That somehow a unfullfilling marriage is just about being selfish, and/or having too high a standard. Why does it seem love (as in bonding) is unimportant? Yes, I have no doubt contributed to our disharmony. If I had been the perfect (or at least better) husband, maybe I could have found that bond for us (I feel guilty about that since I am supposedly the stronger emotional partner in our marriage, and I am). But I have come to believe that that bond is not just something you make, that in fact many marriages are just satisfactory accomodations, never deep bonding. Is it wrong to want that, and leave a marriage where it won't happen? Even if that marriage could be improved and made comfortable, am I allowed not to choose more just cause I married wrongly in my youth, marriage must be a life sentence? What about her, and the mask she wore while dating, and the promises she made to change, I am the prize, she got me to say I do, and now is forever? That is what I see in many marriages, a needy partner who managed to marry a more stable partner, who then out of guilt and misguided ethics stays with someone who will never love em right forever, not very fair is it. The whole idea of what marriage is and should be conflicts me greatly these days. I can do everything my wife "needs" as her ex-spouse, why does she need to wear my ring? I know these questions make many of you think I must be a total jerk, I almost feel the same way myself, but I know they are fair questions, and I must find the answers before I can proceed. Btw, this is not about choosing the ow, as I have said, she is totally unavailable, and I know she will not change. This is about whether I choose my marriage or not. <P>In the 2 months since discovery my wife has done little but heap unrelenting condemnation and criticism on me (while telling me has changed) as she always has whenever she did not like what I was doing (which has been quite often in 23 years, she is verbally and emotionally abusive, admits to it when told so by counsellors, but never changes), why should I try anything? Today she came in as I was typing this, started telling me in her inimitable way (has all her evidence, and a list of all the people who agree with her) again how defective I am. Yesterday I did not respond to her perception of how a spouse should act (her father who is chronically ill, is in the hospital and not doing well). She is right I did not, I am having a difficult time, and have for many years, extending much affection/sympathy toward her. I did try to express some concern, mostly I just try to remain emotionally neutral around her so I won't get yelled at for not doing the right thing. She spent 4 hours last night telling me how inadequate I was, and how could I be so insensitive (and yes I took it all without a peep of protest). I said I was sorry, and tried to act a little more sympathetic, but it too was inadequate and I was criticized for effort. This morning she came in and started again, proceeding to tell me how she discussed this with our 19 yo daughter, and how she could not understand me either. I asked her to stop talking to me, and leave me alone. She kept going on and on (she never shuts up). I have asked her repeatedly not to talk disparagingly about me to kids (she has ignored me). I accused her (as she started to try and put a better spin on it, as she does when she finally gets me angry about something). I accused her of trying to turn the kids against me, and said get out of my room. She refused to leave, and KEPT talking. I pushed past her, and went outside to leave (I was getting real angry) she chased me and jumped in my truck. So I decided to just walk out in the feilds, and told her to get her *expletive* self away from me (yes I had lost it by then, I rarely insult/cuss at her, but I did today). She chased me further, so I went back to house, to go back to my room, she chased me there. All the time saying we gotta talk, me saying (very loudly) I don't want to talk, get the hell away from me. So I go back out to front door (gonna try truck again, maybe can get doors locked). She blocks the door, I move her aside, not hurtfully but forcefully (she is 150, I am 250, not much of a contest). I go to truck, she grabs me and tries to jump in drivers side (yes folks, this had degenerated into something surreal, was like a bad dream, all I wanted to do was leave and get some peace to calm down). So I left truck and tried to go out in fields again, she followed (still talking), I turned around to go back to truck, she blocked my path saying we gotta talk, so I shoved her...hard. She fell on her butt and started wailing like....like, like....well you all probably know. You could hear her for miles, I just gritted my teeth and left (I knew she was not hurt, the grass was soft). I felt awful, but I am really really angry too ( I did not need her in my face), this has been the story of our life, it is allways about her, never about me. So now I got more guilt to deal with ( I have never hurt her, and I won't, but this is no good), and no doubt she will tell all her friends and relatives how abusive I am as soon as she possibly can...*sigh*, I am contemplating whether I should just pack and leave now. This is not about the affair, it is how it has allways been, the affair just gives her more ammunition. So anyways, if any of this is helpful for those of you who deal with your husbands this way, my advice, when he says he does not want to talk.....then don't, and do not get in a males face....ever. As for being critical/judgemental, well I guess we all know how we should talk to each other. If I feel up to it, I will respond to the other stuff you and orchid said, right now I am not up to it. BTW I am mostly an understanding laid back person, I am intellectually aggressive, but that is all. It is my responsibility for pushing her, I know that, and I am not happy about it.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Buffy.....Let me ask you the same question I ask others but can't seem to get answered to often, why is there the mindset that a marriage must be saved at all </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, I'm not Buffy, but I'd like to answer.<P>Because you are at MARRIAGE BUILDERS. Period. That's what this site is all about.<P>That said, I am divorced. I couldn't save my marriage. I tried, and failed. So, here's what I'm doing...<P>Trying to have a decent relationship with my ex-H.<P>Using what I've learned to have an awesome marriage next time.<P>Some have said that I am wrong, I could have saved my marriage had I stuck with it longer...and some have said that I am right, my ex was never gonna change, plus at the end, before the divorce was final, I'd met someone else, which of course sealed the divorce for me (in their opinions)... most though, have said that they support me because they saw how hard I tried.<P>You've been here for a couple of weeks. Not long enough to call it quits... <P>No, not all marriages can or should be saved, in my opinion. But you have to try until you can't any more. If you've already hit that point (which would be sad since you haven't really used the concepts here for long) then that's where you are!! If that is the case, then divorce her. But really, since you're still here talking to us, I'd bet you aren't ready to really call it quits -- or you WOULD HAVE ALREADY.<P>

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Sad_and_lonely,<P>Is it possible that you THINK you are meeting your W's needs, but really aren't? And the same for your W? What is clear is that doing what you both are currently doing - in terms of your interactions - is NOT going to bring you both a fulfilling marriage. Something has to change for your relationship to change. How about if you and your W try to meet each other's needs in a way that is important and special to the other? Again, I will tell you that I am guessing that you both think you are being a great partner to the other, but are both potentially missing the mark.<P>Please do consider counseling with one of the Harleys. If you both change your interactive style, you both might find your relationship begins to change for the better.<P>Take care, Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

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Dear sad,<BR> I am younger than you in age and marriage, so I would not presume to give you advice. I will say your wife sounds scared to death and for someone who wont admit to emotional needs, the need for security must be on the list if she is willing to keep you in spite of the A. She also cant understand why "you dont love her" and she is as you said the most reliable, good mother, responsible, etc.<BR>It is evident to me you respect her greatly, and she must see something she doesnt want to loose in YOU, since as you said you would still pay bills etc. What would she loose if you left? What is it she doesnt want to loose? What does she have now? A husband that wont say he loves her, who put his needs above hers, who put her second to another. I am not making a moral judgement of you Im just asking what is it she is loosing? Maybe she see's something in you that you dont see, maybe you are meeting a need you dont know about. Let me try to say it this way. When my husband wants to show me he loves me he washes my car. I could care less if my car was always dirty, I think "why is he wasting time washing the car when he could be spending quality time with me" We are speaking different languages. When your wife says "why dont you love me" maybe she is saying, I am reliable, a good mother, a good steady person, a good cook,... What more could I do to show you I love you? She doesnt have a clue what you need.<BR>You say she does not like to show or have emotional needs. Maybe now is the time to ask what they are, it is evident she is not in control of her life now and feeling vulnerable maybe now she could explore them since its evident she has them.<BR>I know you have put a lot of thought into this and are probably wiser than I in the ways of life, I am in no way judgemental of you, but from your posts I see love for your wife and respect, am I wrong? Please dont withold yourself.<BR>I also think youu and the other lady feed into each others miserable thoughts of marriage, who has tried harder, who's life is deader, who has been most hurt.... Who cares - do you want to be right or happy?<BR>I have only been married 4 years (together 7) I know I have a lot to go through, and most people here have been married a long time and children are older (2 toddlers), but maybe since I am niave I can see something you dont. I have been wrong before, again and again.<BR>Good luck in whatever you do.

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Could I ask a humble question?<P>Why the heck did you not talk to her when she wanted to talk? Why did you lead her through yards and fields and leave her crying (maybe she was crying because REALLY wanted to talk, not because she wanted to put on a show. Maybe it really hurt her terribly to be rejected by you.)<P>Was she really tearing you down, or was that the way you perceived it?<P>Did you have a real reason to be angry with her, or were you just angry because she confronted you?<P>I am not asking you these questions to make fun of you--I am wondering because my husband does the same thing.<P>I am troubled about something, usually about him, yes I will admit, because nothing else in the world really troubles me that much, and silly me, I just assume that I could turn to my spouse to talk, for feedback or suggestions, or just to talk. I walk into a room where he is, and I feel like the air could be cut with a knife, because I am invading his space. He is immediately angry with me, because I am taking up his time to "b*tch" at him. I am "criticizing" him. I am being unpleasant because I don't see the world as being perfect--(gosh, forever me for having a discrepency in life to work through.) It doesn't matter how gently I approach him or how carefully I word what I have to say (it makes him even madder if I do that--it means that I am "skulking around him" to make him angry.)<P>I say "We need to talk." Immediately, he goes on the defense. He says everything he can to hurt me because he is pissed (about what?) The more I try to talk, the angrier he gets. And then he a) thinks up the most terrible things he can, whether true or not, to say to me b) tells me that I am crazy and out of control (he should look in the mirror) c)tells me to get out of his face d) laughs at me for crying, or tells me that I am a maniac, or trying to put on a show for the neighbors e) leaves.<P>Nothing is accomplished, nothing is communicated. The conflict is never resolved, only avoided, so that it may grow deeper and deeper and uglier, for the next time. The only thing that happens is rage, and it's my fault for provoking him. Always my fault.<P>My husband, too, had an affair because our marriage was "dead." (I did not think it was, in fact, I had no idea.) He says he "cares" about me now. His job and the kid are the only things he "loves." I am just part of the package.<P>Am I feeling sorry for myself? No, but I am filled with grief because my husband rejects me. He feels he has an obligation to stay with me, but he doesn't have to love me and that's the way it is. Do you know how that feels? I feel like garbage sometimes, and it is so hard not to take rejection, especially from your spouse, personally. I mean, duh. . .<P>If he had some faith, if he would just take it one step further and listen, if he would open his heart and try to see me for what I am, then I am sure that he would love me. But he doesn't want to. He is convinced that I am out to get him, and take his money, harass him, turn his kid against him, destroy his career. Or something. He refuses to see me in any other way--I guess that would ruin the way he sees the world and we can't have that, now can we?<P>Bus mostly it's the anger. He decides that I am confronting him when I just wish to communicate. God forbid that we actually ever put our heads together to accomplish something--he decides that I am trying to control him and that makes him angry. He will never just "talk" to me.<P>The only thing is--I have only been married to him for seven years.<P>And, after almost a year of separation, he asked me to come back to him.<P>I told him that I would not do it unless he commited to healing the marriage--unless he loved me.<P>He replied that he "cared" about me. And he didn't want to see me on welfare and having his kid live in the projects.<P>I told him to forget it--I would rather live in the projects than be miserable, being dependant upon someone that despises me. To be used for sex and that's as far as marital duties go for me.<P>So anyways, here I am back with him--and now he says that I am picking on him all the time (Because I would like to discuss his infidelity in order to heal and get over it and be able to trust him. Because I would like to know why he engages in sexual activities on the internet. Because I would like to know why he ignores me and refuses to talk to me, look at me, goes out of his way to play with the kid and chat with women on the net, but pushes me aside.) I am picking on him, he says. I say, to myself, he is guilty and trying to push it under the rug and using me as a scapegoat.<P>It tears me up, it breaks my heart. (He says I am just feeling sorry for myself.)<P>If we were married for 23 years, I think that our marriage would be like yours, with me "b*tching" and him blowing me off. It would be irreconcilable. I would try to end it, too.<P>Other people tell me that I am unassertive to a crippling fault--shy and quiet, that I seem to lack self-esteem. But I work hard, never complain, am giving of myself, charitable. I am told that I am intelligent and thoughtful. Kind to other people, a good friend, a good listener. That's what I am told--by everyone but my husband. To him, I am selfish and a villian.<P>Other men tell me that I am pretty, even beautiful, but my husband has always told me that I would cheat on him and that all I try to do is trap men and use them for whatever they can give me. He has threatened me against cheating on him, defining the consequences of my doing so. Even after his affair, he still does. <P>So tell me, did I make a huge mistake in coming here, back to him? It sure doesn't sound like my marriage can be saved, does it? Nevertheless, I am here, living in our house, hoping someday he will love me the way that I long to be loved. Maybe that's futile.<P>But it can never happen unless we talk--and he refuses to do even that.<P>So tell me, am I stupid?

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This is me again, SEF, All I can respond to you is make your own "Free Will" (Satan) choice and see what happens. Ask Adam and Eve about their Choice, ask Jonah about his choice, ask Cain/Abel about their choice, ask David about his choice then also look at the result of their choice. You can do what ever you want,but YOU are not in control, the Almighty God is and was and no matter, he will get the result that he wants, you will reap the consequences of your bad choices, we all do and will. So my true feelings are that you must be not completely sure of the right thing to do or you would not post here. Just remember, God is a just God and be prepared for the worse if you are a Christian and don't do what God Wants you too. Good Luck! Let us know if you are happy a year from now????

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SEF:<BR><B>This is me again, SEF, All I can respond to you is make your own "Free Will" (Satan) choice and see what happens. Ask Adam and Eve about their Choice, ask Jonah about his choice, ask Cain/Abel about their choice, ask David about his choice then also look at the result of their choice. You can do what ever you want,but YOU are not in control, the Almighty God is and was and no matter, he will get the result that he wants, you will reap the consequences of your bad choices, we all do and will. So my true feelings are that you must be not completely sure of the right thing to do or you would not post here. Just remember, God is a just God and be prepared for the worse if you are a Christian and don't do what God Wants you too. Good Luck! Let us know if you are happy a year from now????</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>First of all, SEF, ANYONE is WELCOME to post here -- no matter where they are in their struggle.<P>Secondly, I do not want to get in a religious debate with you, but the things you say are so judgemental that it makes me cringe when I read it. And before you wonder, I am a Christian, and I am saved -- although I struggle with choices daily... but thankfully, God is merciful and loving... and He knows my heart -- JUST AS HE KNOWS sad_and_lonely's heart. <P>Remember, <I>Judge not, that ye be not judged.</I> Mat. 7:1<BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck

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No bernzini, you are not stupid. Plz keep in mind too as all share stories here, and I do believe there are many similarities in behaviour, that we still all are different too. Without hearing your husbands side is hard to know, but does sound unreasonable on his part. I suspect you both could benefit from competent counselling, seems most of us could. I am not a competent counsellor, but I will offer my thoughts for you to do with as you will. We all have a tendency to push our views on others, especially when we "know" we are right. It is very hard not to do that, the more one does it, the more likely conflict will ensue, whether one is right or not. I think the basis of MB is to affect change by actions, not persuasion, I think that is the right way to go in relationships of all kinds. I suspect you may feel right, may even be right, but what your husband hears is he is inadequate, and will never live up to your standards, that triggers defensive actions in even the most reasonable of people (and most of us are not all that reasonable in the first place). <P>Let me clarify something, I do not refuse to talk. If anything I talk more than my wife, and I do listen, fairly well I think. My problem (as verified by 3rd party counsellors) is that my wife does not back down on anything, and will not stop until she has verbally beat you into submission. I hear her, she does NOT hear me. So our pattern is that I get berated till she runs out of steam, I say little or nothing (else the abuse lasts longer), and we then go back to ignoring each other, and I have maybe complied in some way she wanted (to keep some semblance of peace), makes no difference to her my feelings about it. I would guess the tension you describe, and the rage, are the results of all the miscommunication. The good news is, if folks are motivated, communication issues are readily solvable, is just technique, does not involve much emotion, or solutions, or anything, just exchanging info with anyone, spouse or otherwise. I wonder if your "discussions" about him sound like he needs to be "fixed" and you know just how to do it? I am sorry for the responses you get a-e, you do not deserve that, and yes I have already apologized (a little while ago) to my wife for calling her names, and pushing her, interestingly she had nothing to say about her behaviour, so is all my fault I assume, and there you have it, the cycle continues. I just need to be fixed. I do not do the stuff your husband does, I only ask for space when I feel myself getting really angry. I do listen to her (for hours and hours and hours lately), but geez louise there has to be a limit somewhere doesn't there?<P>You mention in your post you are shy and unassertive, keeping in mind I only know you from that post, I saw something different. I saw a powerful personality, who is using devious (maybe that passive agressive stuff) tools to try and construct the marriage she wants. Guilt is a powerful weapon, and I sensed you project it a lot. This is especially damaging to men who do feel responsible and such, we come to resent being manipulated this way, using our natural desire to protect/care you as a weapon to control us, remake us. After a while the whole thing becomes kinda toxic and the marriage dies, I think. MB deals with this stuff pretty good I think, hopefully it will help you while there is still time. Your husbands behaviour does sound extreme, and nothing like I behave, so I don't know what can be done, you sound like a nice person, but even nice people can have very damaging behaviours. I don't know, but maybe you bring the worst out in each other, or maybe your husband is not worthy of your love, in any event, you must learn to communicate first, and your husband must be willing to try, otherwise I would leave. My marriage was not that toxic, I am unhappy and dis-illusioned but I do not abuse my wife, and treat her respectfully (if distantly) most of the time. Your husbands behaviour is abusive, and needs to stop.<P>You asked why wouldn't I talk. I do, all the time. But times are very volatile right now, and my capacity to listen got exceeded, I would have let her explain later, and in fact I have already done so. We do not normally talk this way, but lately if I get upset and try to get space, she won't let me go, she gets kinda frantic, tries to "fix" the conversation. I think she is afraid I won't come back. If someone had written a book on how best to drive your husband away, she would be the model. This upsets me as well, I not only have to deal with myself, I must be "understanding" and forgiving of her, do her work too. I am sick and tired of doing the emotional work for both of us, that is how we got here in the first place, and sure is not going to keep me here, it is what I am trying to escape, it is drowning me. I do not want a needy clingy (psychologically speaking) wife, I never have. I want a partner. I want a wife who would be just fine, with or without me. Does anyone understand what I am saying? I don't want to be her parent.

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Sad and Lonely - I've read your posts as best I can. I have some problem with long posts not broken out in paragraphs (old age I guess [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]). My H and I had been married 24 years when he told me the same things about me that you have said about your wife. And you know what? It was true. I had dedicated myself to paying bills, taking care of the house, keeping up with the kids and their schedules. I took care of everything but him. I always felt like "he would be there" when the kids were gone and we had time for each other. While I felt like I was "loving" him by taking care of all these other things, inside I festered (unknowingly) and harbored resentment because I felt like it all fell on my shoulders. He truly felt unloved and so did I. <P>We didn't have a good marriage. We kept saying he always wanted to be my "friend" no matter what. He also found an inappropriate friendship which "opened his eyes" to what life could be with someone. I can't blame him for feeling wonderful. I can remember thinking sex was just "one more thing" I had to do before getting some rest. How wrong I was to take my marriage for granted the way I did.<P>After a year and a half of getting nowhere, heated discussions, therapy, etc. I left. Like Terri said in her post, I felt like I had died that first night away. This is the same person who was always glad for him to go on fishing trips, etc. <P>We worked at being friends again for a long time. We spent time together and eventually he transferred with his job. Once again I felt like part of me died. Eventually I transferred with my company and we bought a new home and started over. We have a good marriage and we are happy now. It isn't perfect and all this took its toll on our children, especially our youngest son. That is another story. <P>But we got it back.

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Hello S&L<P>You won't be familiar with my name, but I use to fill these boards up quite a bit some time ago...as I was very deeply involved with another married woman...who I fell in love with...NOT 'lust'....just like you.<P>No one...will ever convince me that we were not the 'perfect fit'...with the exception of one minor detail. We had both pledged our lives to other people for the rest of our lives, 'until death do us part'.<P>It struck me as one of the most painful tragedies I have ever encountered. (Some would say I've lived a sheltered life! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] )<P>I'm the last person in the world...that I, my wife, my kids, and many who knew me...would have ever thought...I could have ended up in the place I did. But it happens.<BR>Every human heart, as flawed as it, can get pretty needy...and incredibly intoxicated...with the right kind of love and attention...at the "right time"...in our life.<P>I might have missed some of the details of your post...(you write almost as lengthy and detailed post as I have in the past [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] )...but is this OW...still 'in the wings' and a potential partner if you break out of your marriage?<P> I would be certain that if she is...then this will certainly 'cloud' your judgement and decision making process. <P>I can't say that my marriage of 20 years was as 'poor' as yours apparently seems to be to you at this time, but any marriage can be ignored...and hence...grow cold and stale. And when someone else comes along and warms that empty, chilled heart like my 'friend' did...and your "OW" has, then the idea of trying to work on the existing marriage is one of the least attractive, most unappealing choice...you can ever imagine having to make. And I think only a WS who is in that place...can truly relate and understand that statement...as cruel as it may sound.<P>Just want to toss out two quotes...that have sunk deep into me...that have helped me pursue...the 'higher road'.<P>One was regarding the myth of the 'greener grass'...<P>"The grass is NOT always greener on the other side of the fence...it is greener...where ever it is watered!"<P>The other quote...that has rung hauntingly as a warning to me is:<P>"You will never find happiness...at someone elses expense!"<P>I am 41...married...three wonderful daughters. I can hear your heart, friend. If you need someone to email and visit with...I would be glad to share more with you.<P>Take care...and be careful...you are navigating through unchartered waters...as far as you are concerned. The wrong decision...will effect your life..and the lives of others...for a very, very...long time.<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited April 30, 2001).]

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Sheryl, this is SEF, and yes, Praise God we serve a merciful God, but is is also a Just God. You can call me judgemental if you want, but SIN IS SIN and the only way it can be forgiven and god given mercy is through repentenance and I sure haven't seen it here. Choices are hard, but that is why we have the Bible and our church family. Just sang in "Experiencing God" musical and are studying 1 John in church, read it and see what I am talking about. I am not be judgemental, just honest. I am not perfect, never claimed to be and never will, but MY God deserves the right choices from me and I will strive very hard to make them, each can do the same. I wish you well I will not respond any more on this issue as I can see Satan has used this forum for his use too!

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You say you aren't rationalizing or justifying anything....but I believe you are. It is virtually impossible for someone who is deep in his or her rationalizations to see them for what they are. Whether you deny or agree, it is very clear that you believe what you wish to believe. So be it. You are an adult with a free will and you may make all the choices you wish to make. Will God bless you? I don't know. Does He hear your prayers? Again, I don't know. I do know that sin hinders prayer because sin separates us from God. But I also know that when the sinner recognizes that sin and separation and confesses it to God, repents from it and asks for forgiveness God will hear.<P>What I also know without a shadow of a doubt is that God in no way, shape or form "led" you to this woman. He does not bless your relationship....it is sin and He will not lead you into sin or bless your participation in it. James 1:13-15 says "When tempted, no one should say 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." <P>My suggestion is the same as it was last night. Go to your priest or pastor and ask his views on what you believe. Consider the fact that what you believe you are getting from this affair is going to leave you just as empty in the long run as the marriage you are seeking to end. In the end, it is your choice.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

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Oh my goodness, would you look at this...I have witnessed the most beautifully articulated posts EVER! There is absolutely nothing I could add by posting anything on this thread. It would most definitely be redundant to do so, and my posts would be much less "intelligent". <P>S&L...<BR>You have brought much good to me because of your questions, which I cannot answer. The information regarding your relationship with your W and your personal feelings have really been interesting and informative to read. Some of your statements, I have heard stated to me by my H. I can relate to you and to your wife, although I haven't heard "her side". You know the saying... there are two sides to every story and then there's the TRUTH!!!<P>When I get in the "nagging zone" with my H, it is all out effort to "get some attention" even if it is negative attention, at least it is "attention". I (just guessing here) think you might consider trying to read through her complaints and criticisms. She may be having a difficult time trying to communicate her feelings to you and can't seem to find the appropriate way to do this. And too, you do need to consider her anger and resentment at this time. You need to feel her pain, let her know, that you know it is real, feel it with her. I think she is trying to hide her pain with angry outbursts.<P>I think you do love your wife, the marriage is stale because both of you are in "the fog", different fogs! If you didn't love her, you would be gone already! (like others have said).<P>I think the reasons so many of us have "hopped" on this thread is because you give us answers to haunting questions that our spouses may not or would not answer. You give us the opportnity to re-evaluate our situations and do a post-affair check on how we are doing in our quests for a better marriage. By giving you advice, we heal ourselves.<P>To answer your earlier question to me... Yes, I am still married, 32nd anniv. May 10...four children, two grown, two at home. H had A after 30 years of marriage, MLC, red car and all...I am 52, H is 53(54 soon). So how's that for statistics.<P>NoMas... Oh how much I wish you could e-mail my H and communicate your feelings with him, he could so much relate to you. He needs some male friends, as do I need female friends...everyone abandoned the "troubled couple" two years ago. We are both starved for same sex companionship to help us through this recovery. Loved your post to S&L, it was so enlightening.<P>Happiness to all,<P>Cathy<P>Don't you all feel like this has been such a great learning experience?<P>Cathy<P><p>[This message has been edited by Catplay (edited April 30, 2001).]

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First of all, let me just say that this thread is exhausting, lol! Really, it *is* intense! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>S&L, I don't have much to add except this: I am a BW who married a former cheater. I found this out shortly before we were to be married. I found out in a very ugly and unpleasant way. But I was "in love." He was my "soul mate." He was "The One," Jerry McGuire, and all that.<P>Seven years later, he cheated again. On me. He did it just like he did it the last time. Same excuses, same rationalizations. Yes, our marriage was unhappy. Part of my unhappiness was coming to terms with the fact that I had married a man who was deceitful when I myself was not. Fundamentally, we were at odds from the very start because of his shift in moral values that went against what I deemed decent and honorable. We have struggled with this for many years, and I fear that I will never respect my H as much as I would have respected someone who was not so nefarious.<P>Maybe you will learn to forgive yourself one day. Maybe you and OW will end up together, who knows? But how will you ever be able to look at the OW and think, "There is a woman who is honest!" - ?? Can you do it? Can that level of deceit go ignored for a lifetime? Could you ever truly respect who she is, long after the passion has died away and you're left with another human who is living in the same house and breathing the same air? When someone asks you, "How did the two of you meet?" will you be able to look them in the eye, tell them the truth, and feel proud about it?<P>belldandy

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SEF:<BR><B>Sheryl, this is SEF, and yes, Praise God we serve a merciful God, but is is also a Just God. You can call me judgemental if you want, but SIN IS SIN and the only way it can be forgiven and god given mercy is through repentenance and I sure haven't seen it here. Choices are hard, but that is why we have the Bible and our church family. Just sang in "Experiencing God" musical and are studying 1 John in church, read it and see what I am talking about. I am not be judgemental, just honest. I am not perfect, never claimed to be and never will, but MY God deserves the right choices from me and I will strive very hard to make them, each can do the same. I wish you well I will not respond any more on this issue as I can see Satan has used this forum for his use too! </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now <B>SEF</B>, you know that Satan is everywhere... but if you are saying that by my feeling that your post was judgemental means that Satan lives here... well... what can I say to that??? Satan may be everywhere, but I do not intentionally serve him, let me put it that way. And I can't believe that because of what I said you will not respond on this issue. You have a right to how you feel, but you know, so do I.<P>Your post that I have quoted here does not share what I feel God is mostly all about - LOVE. Where is the love SEF??<P>Remember, I am a Christian, albeit a struggling one, and I will be the LAST to judge anyone here. There but by the grace of God goeth I... or you.<P>God bless both of us... because we ALL need God's blessings, doncha think?<BR> <BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited April 30, 2001).]

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new_beginning<BR>I see your point and I also see SEF's point. The fact is that you are both right. God IS love...first and foremost. But just as God loves the sinner, He hates the sin. You are also right about being very careful about being judgemental. The Bible is clear that we must never judge another person or their worth. But the Bible is clear that judging right from wrong behavior is not being judgemental. The "rules of life" are clearly set down for all of us. As Christians, we are called to love and support each other, but when a brother or sister falls into sin we are called to go to him or her and lovingly address that sin. This is not being judgemental, it is following what God calls us to do. <P>What I believe SEF is trying to say is that we are called to a standard of behavior. God expects us to give our all in an effort to love and live as He would have us to. When we fall short, He will still loves us, but He will discipline us as well. When He forgives, He forgets, but He doesn't take away the consequences of the sin. Anyone who is a Christian and deliberately chooses a path contrary to what God wants will face His discipline and His consequences. It is all in love, but just as a parent disciplines a wayward child with a spanking or "time-out", God disciplines His children too. I know that personally I welcome the times that God convicts me of sin in my life....I don't enjoy the knowledge that I've let Him down, but I am so grateful to know that I belong to Him and that He watches over me and lovingly deals with me.<P>This post stands to become one that can bring about hard feelings...that is not what we are about here. We can all have our own opinions and share them...even passionately, as I know I have done. But when we shut down the computers at night let's keep in mind that MB is about saving and rebuilding wounded marriages and we are all on the same team.<P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

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HG,<P>I will remember what you've said... and soas not to direct this post the wrong direction, I will drop the issues with which I found offense.<P>I have always respected you very much! <P>Take Care and thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

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NoMas....No, the ow is not in the wings, and feels she must stay in her unfullfilled marriage out of duty and sacrifice. But I would marry her if things were different. I won't try to explain my assessment of her, and my feelings, I do believe she is worthy though. However I understand the reasons I am assigned fog status. This puzzles me a bit, is it always fog? No one ever knows themself enuf to make an honest (and accurate) assessment of their marriage? It seems simply thinking one wants to end a marriage defines fog, I don't get it, no one knows their own mind? What is so sacred about marriage that even contemplating ending it is evidence of temporary insanity? What is there about a history and kids that means one is forever bound to a specific person, no matter how ill-matched? It is like a bad dream, marry, regret it, but kids come along, do the right thing and raise em, then you can't leave cause you have history and kids, so endure for another 30 or 40 years and then die, all for what...exactly? Doesn't anyone understand that even though no one is at fault, or a bad person, that someone may simply not want to be married, and only stayed out of duty to kids, and willingness to make a reasonable effort. Is there no end, you try forever. Is it ok if one spouse is content with what the relationship brings, even if the other is not? Shouldn't an intimate relationship exist only if BOTH people want it more than anything else? I view marriages based on duty and the coercion of vows with horror. I cannot envision binding anyone to me EVER unless they choose me, each and every day, cause they want me, not cause they owe me, or owe God, or owe society, or owe my children. This is too personal to ever settle for anything but freely choosing each other. Am I unreasonable? As for your green grass quote, it is cute, and I see the point. My issue is not with making a bad marriage tolerable, it is with whether I will ever bond with this woman, and while I care about her, it will never be a deep bond. Despite our lack of marital skills, the issues are much deeper, under the best of circumstances, I would never choose her if given another chance. She is a good woman, but she is not my type, nor I hers. Marrying was a huge mistake. Some think type makes no difference, that people are interchangeable, makes no difference who you marry, just that you are married, I find that incomprehensible. Thx for email offer, I may take you up on it. Yes the waters are uncharted, and I am not rushing, but studying carefully, I am one of those rationalist/architect personalities (www.keirsey.com), and we are very very careful, as well as thorough. I don't wish to hurt anyone unnecesarily (wife, kids, ow family), but I will not stay married unless my heart is in it, that is just plain wrong (psychologically speaking). IMO the damage done from a dutiful (as opposed to bonded) marriage is just as bad as a divorce, if not worse, cause is a lie about the heart. My head can be talked into anything, but so far my heart has not wavered. I care about my wife, but I do not love her, and never have. I married her cause I felt sorry for her, and figured I could fix her problems, and make her happy. It was a stupid thing to do, and a diservice to her. But she agreed, and I firmly believe both parties to a marriage share equally in the consequences (including divorce), it is the risk you take in joining with another. Vows are nice, but can never be more than intent, they cannot gaurantee a successfull marriage. As long as humans can make mistakes, divorce will be with us, as it should be. That is an unpleasant truth, but a necessary one. Marriage is not important, the mental health of the individuals in it, is what is important. IMO we should not only focus on good marital skills, but also whether 2 people should even be married, many people should not be married to their current spouse IMO. But hang on out of a misguided sense of duty, sacrifice, and or fear of restructuring their lives. So much for philosophy, I too find it hard to tell my wife it is categorically over, even though I think it is, so I guess I am not so sure of all this either....but I have gained a much better understanding of why people jump off bridges. I had no idea it was possible to hurt (and feel hopeless) so bad, add guilt to that and ....well, you know I am sure.<P>Ok, for all you religious afficionados, nothing has been said here I haven't said to myself already, and it is ok. I am questioning my Christian beliefs along with everything else, so I expect to be "judged" and take it in the debate sense it was offered, and am not offended. I know no one knows the mind of God, and no one can say with perfect knowledge He did not place me and the ow together, and if He did, no one (including me) can know why for sure. Maybe to focus on my (and her) marriage, maybe to recognize I must end this one. Anyways all are entitled to their opinions, and believe me, you are not the first to suggest satan is with me, starting with my wife, many of my relatives, pastors (who are a little more circumspect, but I get the message), and maybe I am, it does worry me. However, I have no doubt at all that God is with us all, all the time, including in marriage, first, second, tenth, makes no difference.<P>Hgb...I appreciate the comments on rationalization, and it is why I am here, for reality check. On the other hand, I must have some respect for myself, and my analytical abilities too. It is my way to seek lots of input, especially from those who disagree with any position I hold, and dwell on it at length before deciding. I trust myself, and when I finally take action, I know it will be the right action (or at least the most right I can reach consistent with who I am). If I can't trust myself, then I might as well turn in my human being badge, and just be someones robot (starting with my wife, who never tires of telling me how I should behave). We have been to our pastors, and I have queried them on marital issues. Their answers were predictable (we are Lutheran), I have lived/believed this stuff most of my adult life. But they were unable to tell me when someone is actually married, nor the nature of oneflesh, and when it occurs. They did agree we are not bonded, but could be, the problem is I did bond with another, now what? No doubt this will be described as fog, but something happened, and it has shook me to the core of my being. I won't annoy anyone with my thoughts on that (well unless they ask), I accept it will be viewed as wanton lust or some such.<P>Cat...Re the nagging zone, perhaps on occasion. But mostly my wife is about power, and control. She is a strong and determined controler, anger her tool of choice. She knows I am a peacemaker, and will mostly let her have her way, unfortuneately I have matured into a fairly good passive/agressive type, much to my dismay. I am also far more verbal then she is, and can "win" any argument, but I have learned not to do that. Still I am belittled for being smart and articulate, things she said she valued in me when we married...go figure. You cannot pin my wife down on anything, she refuses to ever resolve any issue (well unless she gets her way). I sometimes simply resort to male perogative, and tell her how it is going to be, but she always makes me pay. I hate anger, I really really do, and is one of the main reasons I don't want to be married to her, I am sick of anger. Let her yell at someone else for a few decades. Your marriage (statistics) are pretty much the same as ours. Personally I think there is something very much different when an affair occurs for the first time in a long term marriage (20+ years). Maybe for some is a MLC, but for many I think it is the consequence of a deeply disturbed marriage, and the hoplessness one spouse feels. I have been accused of the MLC thing too (hey, every explanation has been touted out, all revolve around "fixing" me, if you have an affair, it must mean you are the problem...right?). IMO these kinds of affairs are about psychological survival. The ow is not some sleazy slug, she is a an upstanding member of her community, and folks would be absolutely dumbstruck, if this is ever known. Likewise myself, no one can believe it, heck I can't even believe it. But I am not sorry I love this woman, she is worthy, and we fit like hand and glove (ok, I can hear the puking, but these things do happen). What I (and she) have to do is now deal with the guilt of loving out of the proper context, and deciding to stay with our spouses while loving another. The concept is if we are torn apart, and never allowed contact again, all will be well. Wrong... I will always love this woman, I am just going to somehow have to live with not being able to even be friends with her, is kinda sad actually. One of the concepts of MB is affair proofing, essentially the buddy system, confessing any budding feelings before they grow (hey instantaneous love may be possible, but not very likely), and is a very good technique. I do think we all have people out there we fit very very well with (emotionally/psychologically), and we many very well not be married to them....obviously a recipe for disaster. However, is just as well the ow is not available, it means I have less temptation to cloud my judgement, I prefer it that way.

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It goes like this:<P>IF you make the mistake of making a committment to someone and you discover that you are not happy - i.e. you 'regret' it - then you make an attempt to find a way to BE happy together. You DON'T make babies. You DO work on the marriage. THEN, if you have tried everything and are still unhappy, you discuss divorce. You DON'T make babies. You DON'T become emotionally involved with another person. If there is still no way to salvage the marriage, then you divorce. You DON'T have to worry about children... you DON'T have to worry about carrying the stigma of infidelity into a new relationship... you DO start with a clean slate and no guilt.<P>But, you are saying that you married, regretted it and THEN children came along... then you stayed together, raised the children all the while knowing that the marriage was bad.<P>Now you want to place the blame on your wife, when you had every opportunity to end it cleanly before there were children - before there was an OW?<P>I am not saying that all marriages must be saved at all costs - I am saying that you are trying to run now because you have someone to run TO - why does that make it ok when before, even though you knew you would never be happy in the marriage, it was NOT ok for you to run? The point we are trying to make to you is that it is BECAUSE of the OW that you are at this point, not because of the marriage. If it was the marriage, you would have gotten to this point WITHOUT the involvement of another person.<P>That said, I will tell you that my marriage was not happy for the last few years... I had to be right all the time, I had to be in control all the time... I was a nag, I was angry, I was a b*tch. My husband was immature and selfish throughout this time - nothing I did was ever right or good enough ... which came first, do you know? I don't know. What I DO know is that I HAVE lived with that man for 15 years and I KNOW what we have in common... and I know that he still loves me, and I NEVER STOPPED LOVING HIM. There were times when I had difficulty expressing that I loved him, but I NEVER STOPPED.<P>You ask me how can I know I am a perfect match for my husband... I never claimed to be a perfect match. There is no such thing. The most happily married couples have at least 10-20 things in life they can absolutely NEVER agree on - 10-20 'irreconcilable differences'!!! Imagine that! And those are the people who are HAPPY with one another... You claim that you and your OW fit like a glove - how can you possibly know that, if you think I cannot know that after LIVING with my husband for 15 years?<P>You don't think you are justifying and rationalizing, but that is all you are doing. For every couple that is recovering successfully from infidelity, you will find one of the spouses had used almost the exact arguments you have used to attempt to justify their unwillingness to attempt reconciliation. And when they did actually TRY... they discovered that their spouse was a great person after all...<BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

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