S&L<P>Sigh. Just ... sigh. I hope you read what Terri wrote above. I hope that you don't just read it, but that you really digest what she has told you, because my man, you are deep in a fog. Very deep. I've read so many of the same justifications on this board and others, it's uncannpy. What you are doing is "revising" the marriage to "make" it bad and "pin the blame" on your spouse in order to justify the affair. I know that you don't realize that you're doing this - that's what it's called the "fog." Because it's clear to everyone here, but not to you. We may as well be speaking to you in Latin.<P>I personally feel that your W should give you the boot so that you'll be forced to deal with this issue. At this point, I feel it's the only way for you to really assess the situation. Right now you have it too easy. You have your home and you family and your W to turn to. Those securities need to be removed so that you will be forced to examine them really closely and decide whether or not it was all a mistake. Only until you lose everything will you be able to wake up. <P>I'll bet good money that you're middle-aged, too. Am I correct? Sorry, I don't mean to make you sound cliche, however, sadly, you are very much so.<P>belld

Terri.....Ouch. But ok. I am still wary though of the notion that simple working on a marriage = wanting the marriage. I do not blame my wife at all, I was simply trying to present my view of stuff. Not do I expect perfection, but I do know this, I dated my wife for 5 years, last 2 very rocky, was not a happy wedding. I do fit the ow much better than I ever fit my wife, this is a simple statement of fact. I agree with the no babies rule, but my wife got pregnant on honeymoon, too late. BTW have said all over the place, running to ow is not an option, she has made it clear from the beginning, she cannot imagine leaveing her family, even if she is unhappy. She cannot bear their pain. As for my state of mind, my wife had been threatening divorce for years (every time she got mad, which was often I always resisted (for religious reasons, while still hoping she would just leave). Finally about 2 years ago, I accepted we would divorce, was crazy to live like this, and was just waiting till kids finished school, and general apathy, was a lousy 2 years too. So when I said ok, hoped she would not argue. But I knew she would never divorce (well pretty sure, she did scare me once or twice), and sure enuf she did not agree. Somehow the affair came out the next day, and all heck broke loose. Anyways, point is, this is not just about the affair, that was a precipitating event, but the issue is the marriage. Ow or not, I don't want to be married any longer, is too lonely. Finally I don't think my wife loves me, I think she is dependent on me, and I am better than nothing. It puzzles me how folks her repeatedly state they love their spouses...why? Especially in troubled marriages, with spouses clearly not worthy of their love. It almost feels um....like love at any cost. Not love of the person, but simply love of whoever they are married too, and fitting is irrelvant. Like giving up is unacceptable, so justify it by saying love them. What is it about marrying someone that makes people fixate on loving them no matter what?

yes bell, I am middleaged. I wish my wife would give me the boot, but she won't. I understand what you are saying about losing everything, what you can't understand is I have nothing to lose. My wife does not love me, never has, of that I am certain. She has put up with me, and that is not enuf. Now she says she wants to love me, I don't believe her. I would prefer to be alone, with nothing, than live like I am now. So is all fog, perhaps, time will tell I guess. I don't need to justify the affair. I view it as inevitable, and it will not happen again, nor do I blame my wife for anything. I am not leaveing cause of anything she did, I am leaveing cause I do not love her. Even if she did all the things MB suggest (which she is not), would make no difference, except to make me feel more guilty. She is a nice person, a good woman, I just don't want to be married to her.

Dear Sad:<P>I never wanted to get you in such a hot seat, but I can see that you have maintained your position throughout the ordeal and I must respect you for that. There is one statement that I find very telling however and it probably is the crux of your problem:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> . I care about my wife, but I do not love her, and never have. I married her cause I felt sorry for her, and figured I could fix her problems, and make her happy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What a sad commentary for 23 years of a person's life..23 years of raising your children, cleaning your house, cooking your meals and still you cannot love her. I would think that you have not been able to hide this from her...the unloved always knows that something is not quite right...no wonder she fights back...probably in frustration at what she can't have that she wants very much...your love. This is the one reason I think you have given us that does make ending this marriage the right thing to do...for her. Everything she is and everything she's done thrown away in a heartbeat because you meet someone new and she swept you away...and now all the years and all the trials mean nothing. <P>You've characterized your wife as dominating, opinionated, abusive and manipulative....what a piece of work she is...but I bet the truth is somewhere shy of there...perhaps she really is just a scared little girl..screaming because she can't be heard any other way...screaming out her agony at a life wasted on someone who can't love her...no matter what she does or who she is...in a way I can understand.<P>You asked why we think marriage is so important...well, I for one don't think it's so much marriage that's important as it is commitment...and marriage is the symbol of commitment to the world...not to entered into lightly or without due consideration. The time for decision is before marriage...marriage creates the obligation of commitment...and with that promise of continued commitment we give up parts of ourselves and invest parts of ourselves in one another...parts that we can never recover or get back...lives become interwined...and gradually along comes children and further commitment...and implied promises to be around for the raising of those children and even grandchildren..to share in the burdens and joys..and for each commitment a piece of ourselves is surrendered to the marriage...for the good of the marriage and the family. In an ideal marriage for each thing we give up to strengthen the whole...we get back triple in appreciation and love for the scarifices we make and that should make it all worthwhile. The problem is some marriage don't give back in proportion to what they take away...so we're left with a yearning we don't know how to fill. We gave our all and got little or nothing in return. I'll bet both you and your wife would describe your marriage this way. And then what we did have was thrown away in a minute...as if it had no real value compare to this wonderful newfound idealized love.<P>Part of growning up is realizing that commitment is not something you can just forget about...whatever the reason...and no matter how difficult the road...we commited ourselve to this life and now we must make the best effort we can to see that all involved are not short-changed for their investment in it. <P>Your wife has invested in you...more then just her love...but her time...her body...parts of her past and her future...memories...little pieces of herself that will go with you whereever you go regardless of whether you stay in this marriage or leave. You are part of her life...good or bad...and because of those 23 years of involvement she deserves your utmost effort to try and repair this marriage before you mentally commit yourself to another. <P>I know you say this other OW is not going to be a part of your life, but some OW is, because mentally you have left this marriage already and are merely having difficulty finding a way to end it officially. Your commitment is gone...as gone as your love...which perhaps never was...and without love there can never be commitment...just unforefilled promises...like dust in the wind. I'm sad your life and your wife's life has come to this and that your children have gotten lost in the shuffle. Good luck in anything you decide...I think there will be no winners.. in this everyone loses. Sad.<P>Faye<P>

S&L,<P>Damn, damn, double damn... I just wrote out the best post and lost it when I hit the submit reply button.<P>My sentiments were... in a nutshell, if you are so unhappy with this wretched, evil woman who has consumed 23 years of your life...a person who was troubled and you tried but couldn't fix,but married anyway... then leave, what are you waiting on? For us to make your decision? <P>Why were you scared when your W tried to leave once or twice? Why should that bother you? You don't love her, she frustrates you, belittles you and makes you feel bad about yourself in general. Go ahead and leave since you have such strong convictions that all involved with be ok if you do. But, if you do leave, do make sure the checks keep coming in and believe me, she will SURVIVE! Nuff said.<P>Cathy

Buffy, your post (last one) was awesome. I had tears in my eyes as I read it because it hit so very close to home. You see, I have lived 32 married years to a person, good person with good intentions, who tried to fix me and my problems too by marrying me and who has said many times that he should have never married me, his Dad even told him not to. Difficult to live with this guilt, knowing someone married me to FIX me, against his father's will to boot. He, to this day proclaims that we never really loved each other we just needed each other and that we married for all the wrong reasons.<P>Anyway, off on a tangent because of this poor man's quandry. I don't want to take up airspace with my problems. I will save this for another day. But, it really opened a can of worms for me. Something I had never thought about. I guess reading some of this bleeding heart's club jargon really does open up some areas in our lives that we would never open otherwise for fear of touching a cord.<P>Glad you are still with us...<P>Love to you, Cathy

You wrote:<BR>>>I am contemplating whether I should just pack and leave now. This is not about the affair, it is how it has allways been, the affair just gives her more ammunition>><P>Sad,<BR>I've been reading this thread from page 1 and got to this point and stopped dead in my tracks (meaning, I haven't finished the whole thread yet.) I just can't keep still any longer.<P>I've been wondering, almost from page 1, why if you were so miserable and unhappy in your marriage that you didn't leave your wife before your affair happened? Please..don't tell me you hung in there for the kids! What's different now? You still have kids (grown or otherwise, they are still your kids and you are one of their role models and will be, for life), so that can't be valid. You say you've been miserable for years--unconnected to your W, different from her in almost every way,etc. etc.--and yet, you hung in there, UNTIL someone came along and made you "feel alive." Now, all of a sudden, it's different.<P>For a moment, I want to digress and talk about your OW's situation. She doesn't want to leave her H because it will hurt his feelings?? What is that?! She says she'll "suffer guilt"? Well, let me ask you something: does her H know about her little tryst with you at the present? If not, then that is the true source of her guilt. Could her reasons for not leaving him have something to do with security, financial or otherwise? I am digressing too far here, so please bear with me and allow me to return to my original thoughts:<P>Sad, I am sorry if I sound like I am jumping on your case. I truly do not mean to demean you in any way, so let me be honest with you. Your situation sounds a lot like mine but in reverse. My H and I have a 16 year relationship (13 of them married ) and we've had our share of problems, ups and downs over the years. But, we always remained close. Now, I know this is far different from your marriage, or the way you describe it right now, BUT.. my H was a loving, deeply committed to our marriage person until he allowed temptation to enter his life and embraced it. Or, at least this is the way I always viewed him and how he felt about me and our union. NOW, however, his current beliefs and memories sound like they could be yours. Suddenly, our marriage was never good enough and during one screaming session, he told me it was NEVER good! Suddenly, I went from being the woman of his life to being the albatross around his neck. At one point, he had ME hating myself, I sounded so awful, according to him! <P>Sad, the point I am trying to make here is that an affair is pure poison for all parties involved. Had you done the honorable thing and been honest with your wife years ago, and LEFT her, if you were so truly miserable, then an affair would never have happened. You'd have been free to come and go as you wish and find that "Mrs. Perfect". However, you didn't make that choice. Instead, you chose to step outside the vow you made to your W and in so doing, caused a lot of hurt for many people. (I'm still wondering if your OW's spouse knows, too) You 'hung in there', year after year (until someone new came along). Isn't this the same as leading your W on? I think it is. You led her into a false sense of security, and that is a very cruel thing to do to someone.<P>I can't help but say to my H that if things were so bad, why didn't he tell me before?? If what he says NOW is so true, then why didn't he take some kind of action before? Oh..by the way, we didn't have any kids together, so he sure didn't stick around for that reason. I know I am asking questions that will probably never get a sane or reasonable answer because my H, too, is in that fog that is so accurately described by Dr. Harley. I read somewhere on this board that a person in that fog is not in their right mind. Wow! That certainly does apply to mh H! He has become a completely different person since he allowed his EA to start. It would take far too long to explain here, but take my word for it--he is like the complete antithesis of what he was before. Fortunately for us, he is slowly coming out of it and has stopped the EA and he truly does want to try to make our marrige work again.<P>Sad_n_lonely, I, too, am wondering why you are posting here on this site. To me, it sounds like you are desperately looking for someone to validate your feelings. Why is that? I think it's because you know what you've done is wrong, regardless of the circumstances that led up to it. Most of us on the MB are very hurting, wounded people. Betrayed by the person we love most in the world, our worlds have come apart and we are walking through Hell, each and every step of the way. <P>I'm sorry, but your statement: >>This is not about the affair, it is how it has allways been, the affair just gives her more ammunition>> just shows me that this is justification on your part. My H tried something similar on me when I first found out about his EA (Him: "See?? See how you're acting now? So angry and trying to control my life!"), which was so far from the actual truth that is was almost laughable, if it wasn't so tragic. <P>Back to your OW for a minute: now, IF her marriage, too, was so empty and fruitless, she'd leave her H in a minute. But, for reasons known only to her, she won't leave him. However, it's fine and dandy for her to continue her relationship with you, a relationship built on lies and deceit, just as long as her H doesn't find out and leave her feeling guilty. Wow! What a wonderful person that is! <BR>My H's special friend is the same caliber woman, Sad. She will not give up 18 years' worth of married benefits (the house, the cars, the medical insurance, etc. etc.)and no matter how much she told my H her marriage is the pits, it all just doesn't wash. She is no fool and wants the best of both worlds. I suggest you take a long, hard look at your friend and rethink a whole lot of things. <P>I guess, to sum up what I'm trying to say, is that no one should begin a new relationship without ending an old one first. Period. Why people don't do this is a mystery, but if you dig deep enough, I think you'll always find the truth. <P>Good luck to you, Sad. I truly do wish you well, but you've hit a nerve with me and I suppose a lot of us here on this MB. I'm sorry if my words upset you, but I needed to get this off my chest, too.<P>Winny<BR>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR>However I understand the reasons I am assigned fog status. This puzzles me a bit, is it always fog? <P> ahhh...the great "fog" issue! Some would have thought 'fog' was my middle name. "IF"...you are in a 'fog', then so is every person who ever 'falls in love'. LOL <BR>The older I get, the more incredible it seems to me...that young people...who haven't a clue about what life is all about, not to mention marriage and raising kids, could 'fall in love', and make a mutual decision to get married, with the understanding that it will be for the rest of their lives. Those choices...are easy to make...when you can't see all the curves and bumps and valleys that lie beyond the horizon. Especially when that 'love bank' is overflowing. <P>I always resented being told I was in a 'fog' because the feelings and emotions and all that stuff was very, very real. I suppose it is 'acting' on those feelings...that constitutes the 'fog' issue...I mean, who speeds up on a dangerous mountain pass in a car when you can't see the end of your car for the thickness of the fog. But guess what...it was those same feelings that led most people to get married, and most of them could not see beyond the next curve in life to have any idea what they were getting into.<P>I am thinking that folks here define 'fog' as some emotional factor that hinders rational thinking. Well, I would hope...that hurting, WS would admit, that their own pain, which runs deep, can certainly cloud their thinking and judgment. They are just on the opposite spectrum of emotional feelings. Many of the things they do and say are done out of the pain that has been inflicted upon them. And who can blame them? They will do and say things, that they would not have done under normal circumstances, so I guess you could say...we all...have seasons where we find ourselves...in a 'fog' of sorts...that clouds are vision. And none of us...have the proverbial crystal ball...to see in the future. What a bore that would be! <P> What I do hear many of these people saying and doing is an attempt to 'wave you off' with their own battle scars...trying to tell you that leaving...is not the answer.<BR>I think you see that your affair was only a 'symptom' of something deeper inside of you. And what I am hearing here is people are saying..."you won't be any happier moving in the direction you are going, so don't take more people down with you in the process."<P> "What is so sacred about marriage that even contemplating ending it is evidence of temporary insanity? "<P>Well...it was God's design...his invention. I don't believe though, that every person we marry was God's perfect choice for a life-time mate. But, once we make that choice and say "I Do"...then...it does become God's choice for you..and He can work with it. Sure would be nice if more counseling was given to couples getting married. People will spend more time and research to buy a truck/car than they will marry someone for life.<P> "Doesn't anyone understand that even though no one is at fault, or a bad person, that someone may simply not want to be married, and only stayed out of duty to kids, and willingness to make a reasonable effort. "<P>Yep...many of us do decide. And many have discovered...and the reason this site exist...is to tell you...that you won't find what your are looking for, by 'checking out' at this time in your life. Yes...the temptation...the reasons...the desires...everything...is there...screaming at you...rationalizing...and demanding...that you make a move...to insure your own happiness. And honestly...for awhile...you may really find your release...your freedom...your 'happiness'. But again, many...who have traveled down this road..are saying..."PLEASE DON'T!...THIS WAS NOT THE WAY TO GO!"<P>Do you remember the movie: "Little Mermaid"...and how Ariel was seeking out the Sea Witch who was going to help her pursue her true love and enable her to become a human? There is a scene where she swims through the cave...and see's all the 'ghosts' of former mermaids...who had come under her spell...and the looks in their eyes...were begging her to turn back. That is what I see here on these boards...in many of the people who write here...scarred, broken, some, being healed and restored...but all saying the same thing..."TURN BACK NOW...BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!"<P> You said: "Marrying was a huge mistake. "<P>A sobering assesment, for sure. People always mention the 50% divorce rate today...and the figure holds true in the church recent reports tell us.<BR>Something is wrong. But what is even sadder to me, is that the remaining 50% of the marriages...are nothing to hold up as a shining example. Many are simply 'hanging on' or 'enduring' for all the noble reasons...and that saddens me. I don't think that is what God had in mind...when he thought up the institution of marriage. <P>But I can honestly say, my heart goes out to you. Your pain...is real and genuine. You are hurting just as much...as many of the betrayed spouses here. Your wife has to be hurting. Pain is real...regardless of it's source.<P><BR>I'm glad you are not rushing into anything. I was wondering, when reading your last response, what advice...counsel...would you give to a young couple now...today...who were contemplating marriage? What would you speak into their lives...how..could they 'know' for sure...that this was the right choice to make? Any thoughts?<P>Take care..<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited May 01, 2001).]

buffy.....Is ok, I need to be in a hot seat. For the first time in my life I am not completely trusting of my analytical abilities, and you all are doing me an immense favor by listening and responding to me, I thank you all. Yes is a sad commentary, and I realize my role, and I regret it, but what now? Am I bound cause I was stupid, do I "owe" my wife my being? I owe her support both financial and emotional, but do I owe her "me", is that what marriage is about? I have been frank with my reasons for stuff, knowing full well how they will sound. Despite what problems my wife has, and she married wrongly too, (she wanted to be rescued, and has always placed her father ahead of me, her admission, not my assessment and she deeply regrets it and has asked to be forgiven), the greater fault is mine, I had figured all this out before we married. But I was not strong enuf to do what had to be done and end it, instead I married her, hoping somehow I was capable of making it all work. I say the things I do about my wife just so folks can understand our circumstances not cause I blame her. I forgave her long ago for not loving me, I have had a much harder time forgiving myself for not loving her. She does own her behaviours though, and many are not pretty (but that does not make her, or me bad people), but again I do not blame her, she is who she is, as am I, blame serves no purpose. My one and only concern is assessing correctly the nature of our marriage, whether it can ever be a deep bond, or whether it will only be mutual caring. Then trying to understand what that means, what marriage should be, and why people settle for less, rather than seek more, and why we are made to feel so guilty for such "selfishness". We would understand if a malnourished person left their circumstances perhaps hurting others, so they can get better nourishment, but we don't seem to recognize a need for psychological nourishment, I wonder why. <P>I am convinced by now people are not all the same re psychological needs. My wife could settle, she is content if we are not in love, as long as we are polite and comfortable, that is a kind of death to me. I love deeply and hard, and need to be loved the same way. I tried with my wife the first 10 years to love that way, little came back, and I started to literally die. I don't want to be a cynical bitter old man who just buries those feelings, I have seen too many marriages (including my wifes parents) who live just like that, is awful. Nor do I think it fair to my wife to look at her everyday and wish I was not here. You all (in so many words) say just pretend, or you owe your being to another, or you are possessed by satan, etc..., just do the stuff, all will be well, if that is true, then my entire life is a lie, and I really know nothing at all about myself, or I am mentally ill, that is pretty scarey too. I understand your identifying with the BS, but plz understand, all these feelings and thoughts existed prior to the ow, I had already decided we could not go on as we were. And yes she cooked and cleaned and stuff, and I worked, riased kids together, and gave her emotional support (with none in return), and endured knowing I was unloved as well. It is not about blame buffy, it is about 2 people who both made a bad choice, she did not have to marry either ya know, where is her responsibility? <P>You are doing the same thing I have lived with for 23 years, suggesting all the responsibility is mine. If this marriage is not right (should not have happened) she is a full partner in that mistake, and must be a full partner in the consequences....right? And yes committment is important, I am comfortable 23 years meets any reasonable standard of committment. The issue is when is the trying done, and the assessments made. And when is committment not enuf and the feelings of the heart are. Some would say the heart never counts, is all duty (committment) and too bad if you made a mistake (psychologicaly speaking) in the choice of a life partner. I say they are wrong, I look at the misery (or aloneness) in so many marriages existing out of duty and sacrifice and I say life is not about committment, it is about the heart, if the heart is right, then the committment makes sense, but the heart must be right first. I don't say marriage must be perfect (that would be silly of course) but I do say marriage should be based on love, a desire to choose and be with that person. A desire arising from the heart, not the head. <P>I wish there was some switch I could flip in me (and perhaps my wife) that would make us be "in-love" and then we could justify all the struggle and work to solve problems and build desire. I can understand the intense desire to even delude ourselves it is there (heck I did it for years), but the truth eventually catches up with us. If we don't love rightly we eventually face it, and we then choose, heart or committment. Is a cruel joke mother nature has played on us, we have no control over hearts desire, and our hearts have no control over guilt, committment issues, duty...so we go to war with ourselves, it sucks big time. Either way we lose, I follow my heart and I live with huge amount of guilt, I follow duty and I disappear, Joseph ceases to exist, and is only a reflection of others needs of him. But I must choose, well unless I jump off a bridge, but I am not the quitter type (in that sense), and I will choose, but it must be a choice, mine, and not what anyone else (including wife) thinks I must do. And for now I think hearts are more important than duty or committment. <P>I think there is little in life (maybe nothing) more important than loving rightly, and that is a matter of the heart. I also think that is what all the marital doctrine in the Bible is about, it is not about duty, it is about loving rightly, and listening to your heart. Just for the record, although you should know by now, I have not expressed (in real life) anything resembling blame of my wife. I will not demonize her to justify myself. This choice is mine, it is not cause she drove me to it, or is not worthy, or can't meet my needs. I am however demonized quite extensively, I do not lift a finger in my defense, further my wife has made various threats about what lawyers and such will do to me (I realize may just be more fear talking). But makes no difference, I intend to leave with nothing but the clothes on my back, she can have it all, is only fair.<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited May 01, 2001).]

delete<p>[This message has been edited by vernon3 (edited May 15, 2001).]

There are no crueler words than to be told - "I never loved you"... <P>All those years down the drain, for what?<P>You never directed any responses to me, <B>Sad</B>, and I can only imagine that I said nothing that appealed to you, or you didn't agree, or you missed it altogether... I don't know... but I hope you listen to me here:<P>I have been where you are, in that I had an affair. My ex had five affairs. In all that time, we NEVER EVER told each other that our lives together were a MISTAKE. I can AT LEAST take that with me as a positive in all of this... <P>You are basically telling your wife that she isn't/wasn't valuable or loved for all that time.<P>It hurts my spirit to read this stuff... and yes, you might say that I shouldn't read it then... but dammit, I am trying to reach out to those I can help... and I have tried to do that with you too...<P>Have you read the inks I gave ou???<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What Are Plan A and Plan B</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A><P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A><P>Do you understand what this place is about??<P>I felt, from the beginning, that you are welcome to post here... ALL ARE WELCOME... but we are allowed to be angered or hurt by your remarks.<P>When I read that you NEVER loved your W it just broke my heart.

s&l<BR>I'm really beginning to feel sorry for you. At first, I didn't....was somewhat angered by your apparent attitude. But as I read I am beginning to believe that you really are terribly confused and torn about this whole situation. You are unhappy in your marriage. I believe that. I have felt it myself. You believe you will be happy if you leave the marriage. I believe that as well. But what I believe beyond that is that you won't find the happiness you believe lies outside your marriage. It is something inside yourself that is missing and a divorce won't change that. In fact, it may well magnify it. <P>The reason we all say you are rationalizing and in a "fog" is because so much of what you say is contradictory. You talk about not loving your wife in years, if ever, and say you have been planning a divorce for 2 years. But when you talk about your wife's threats of divorce you say that even though you didn't think she would really follow through, she did "scare" you once or twice. The word scare is yours, not mine. This doesn't add up. We are outside the situation and have a clearer view....especially those of us who have made it to the other side.<P>As for the religious aspects of this. I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. On the truth of the Bible, I tell you with absolute certainty that God did not lead you to this woman and this affair. <B>God does not, will not, can not lead you to sin.</B> Did He allow her into your life? Possibly. Was it a test? Maybe. Did you pass or fail? Oh, you and she both failed miserably. This is not my opinion, this is God's Word, it is backed up in the Bible. Read 1 John 3:7-8, 1 John 1:15-17, and James 1:13-14. There are too many more for me to list in the time I have. Go to Psalms and Proverbs....read the story of David and Bathsheba. You don't have to be a pastor or member of any particular denomination to understand what God is saying.<P>I believe with all my heart that if you give Him your whole heart and your wife does the same, God can give you a love for each other that is more than you could ever imagine. He's done it for so many of us and He has more to spare. <BR><P>------------------<BR>"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They shall mount up with wings as eagles, they shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." Isaiah 40:31

Wind...Yes, it was for the kids, and partly cause I knew she needed me, and an ever diminishing hope that some miracle would occur, and a deep unwillingness to face what I had done. The kids are raised now, and I do not agree that adult children should be considered in contemplating divorce. Yes they will be affected, but the needs of the parents are more important, they have to live together another 30-40 years, while the kids have their own lives and families. Minor children are an entirely different case, and parents must have a much higher standard of committment, for their sakes.<P>Your comments on the ow have validity, and are the standard ones, I have asked myself the same questions. But again, is not about her anyways, is about me. But I do apply the same scrutiny to her, as I do myself and my wife. I fully recognize she may have her own fog, and may not be as "in-love" as I, but I doubt it, it is not her words it is her behaviour and what I see between the words that I look for in people, and I am very very good at understanding people. When I say she doesn't want to hurt his feelings, we aren't talking trivial here. This woman has lived her life submerging herself in others needs, and peacemaking, in the process she has become lost (and shame on those who supposedly love her). Not hurting people is what she is about, she has opened up to me cause I enable people that way, always have, I have spent the time, and looked at her very hard, I am comfortable I understands her, what I am worried about is she has triggered my rescueing inclinations. <P>The whole thing is a huge mess, but the psychology is fascinating (in me, her, my wife and her husband). She is controlled and paralyzed by guilt in her life, as am I to a lesser extent, trying to understand that has been a painful struggle, but worthwhile methinks, just wish it could have come about in some other manner, but such is life. My goal now is to do the right thing, an extraordinarily elusive thing to figure out, but that is who I am, I am compelled to understand things, no matter what the cost, it is how I cope, and the risk one takes in loving me. And no she is not worried about finances or anything else, she is content to leave with clothes on her back as well, but she is afraid he will not let her go, and seriously guilt her, she does not feel she can live with that on her conscience.<P>I have not led my wife on deliberately, it had been life, messy messy life. And she had obligations as well, leaveing while children were being raised was unacceptable, and she mentioned divorce plenty of times, I never did. Finally I agreed, and she said she never really meant it. (this I have talked about some elsewhere). I don't feel I have misled my wife, she has been aware of my feelings all along about us. She chose not to deal with them, I couldn't make her. But again is not her fault, she is who she is, as am I, and I understand I am unable to meet her needs as well. But it is not just that, it is other stuff to, we just do not fit, is no ones fault, it just is, and should not be married to each other. I am sorry about your husband, but I will say this, I don't view this notion that it is all about temptation, and some sort of defect in people when so tempted. I think there are sound healthy psychological reasons for affairs (sometimes), having to do with emotional survival. If an affair of otherwise normal decent people occurs, something else has happened, and the affair is just the consequence of much more serious issues, including a failed marital bond no matter how surprising that may seem. If we are capable of decieveing ourselves re affairs, then we are just as capable of decieveing ourselves re being in-love with our spouses. If we are not truly bonded to our spouse something will happen, depression, running away, affairs, suicide, something. Deeply bonded people will not have affairs. Yes I allowed "temptation" to enter my life by some definitions. But as I see it, it was a consequence of my life, and my motives honorable. When I realized the emotional truths, I was prepared to marry the ow and divorce my wife, I was not going to maintain a mistress, nor will I be the om for any significant length of time, this is not fun and games, choosing to be a life-partner is a serious business. I understand the blow your self-esteem took, I have essentially done the same to my wife. No matter how much I tell her it is about me, makes no difference, and is the strongest reason I had not to tell her, her pain. But she deserved the truth about my feelings, delivered as gently as I possibly could (and no, I have never spoke to her as your husband did you). She cannot understand, and asks me constantly why can't I love her, is heartwrenching. I can only tell her she is a good woman, but that we just don't fit rightly. Interestingly she is gradually starting to demonize me, belittle me, etc. I understand why, and is ok, if that is what she needs to do to survive, but it does illustrate part of why we don't fit, I place a high value on emotional truths (well yeah except for concealing affairs *sigh*), she does not have the same need, and I stress her this way, always have. I stress her other ways too, and she me, we just don't fit. Somehow saying that, or even contemplating that one does not fit another well enuf to bond drives people nuts, I don't understand why. I am happy to hear your husband is responding to you, and wish you well.<P>I am not posting here for validation, I am posting here for discernment, I do not want to make such important decisions without subjecting myself to peer review. I realize the possibility exists I am in some kind of fog, and that I in fact completely misunderstand myself, life, committment, human psychology, and such. But I also know I must decide in some reasonable timeframe how to proceed. But yes, what I did was wrong, and I won't do it again..ever, but now I must deal with it.<P>Wind....I'm sorry, but your statement: >>This is not about the affair, it is how it has allways been, the affair just gives her more ammunition>> just shows me that this is justification on your part. My H tried something similar on me when I first found out about his EA (Him: "See?? See how you're acting now? So angry and trying to control my life!"), which was so far from the actual truth that is was almost laughable, if it wasn't so tragic.<P>Me...Ok, chastisment accepted, she has every right to be angry. I know that, that statement was self-serving. But the marital problems do exist, I just wish that was the focus. <P>Wind...Back to your OW for a minute: now, IF her marriage, too, was so empty and fruitless, she'd leave her H in a minute. But, for reasons known only to her, she won't leave him. However, it's fine and dandy for her to continue her relationship with you, a relationship built on lies and deceit, just as long as her H doesn't find out and leave her feeling guilty. Wow! What a wonderful person that is! <BR>My H's special friend is the same caliber woman, Sad. She will not give up 18 years' worth of married benefits (the house, the cars, the medical insurance, etc. etc.)and no matter how much she told my H her marriage is the pits, it all just doesn't wash. She is no fool and wants the best of both worlds. I suggest you take a long, hard look at your friend and rethink a whole lot of things. <P>me...You may very well be right, I'd like to think I am nobody's fool, but that is definitely suspect at the moment. Can only say she is either a world class liar and actress, or in fact I know her pretty well. Likewise myself, I do think we have been honest with each other, I do trust her (feelings), and the issues are not the worth of either of us as human beings, but the wrong place we have found ourselves for the right reasons.<P>wind...I guess, to sum up what I'm trying to say, is that no one should begin a new relationship without ending an old one first. Period. Why people don't do this is a mystery, but if you dig deep enough, I think you'll always find the truth.<P>me...no argument, you are absolutely correct, and I will never do so again, and am trying to correct this one now. I will love this ow forever, but it may well be we cannot interact much, or at all, in any event, nothing resembling an affair will be allowed to continue by either of us. I am trying to find out whether my wife and I can be in-love, and if not, I will just be alone.<P>wind...Good luck to you, Sad. I truly do wish you well, but you've hit a nerve with me and I suppose a lot of us here on this MB. I'm sorry if my words upset you, but I needed to get this off my chest, too.<P>me.....I thank you for your comments, no need to apologize, these circumstances are distessing beyond comprehension. I read many of your comments a bit tearfully, but not with any feeling of being persecuted, if my input is of any value to others I am happy to be usefull too. I do have a question, how does your husband know you love him? And how do you know you love him? How do you know you are only comfortable, dependent, habituated to him? What is love (in your opinion) and what does bonding in an intimate relationship mean to you? Are you content with a caring kind of marriage, or is your idea of bonding literally becoming one with your spouse, and all that that means. Anyone elses answers would be appreciated too. And lastly, how do you know you wouldn't love another man more completely, and maybe your husband can sense that.<P><BR>

New....I have not deliberately ignored you, or anyone, and write enuf that I think I am covering most of the comments whether I reference one by name or not. I do appreciate your stuff too, and have read it. However, if I have overlooked something you wrote and not answered one way or another elsewhere, I would appreciate you restating it, and I will answer. If I understand right, your position is that divorce is acceptable, but only after you do the work. That work consisting of some time applying principles such as MB. As for all those years down the drain, I understand the sentiment, but it is not a factor in my thinking, IMO history plays no role in assessing whether one is or wants to be bonded. The history will exist whether we are married or not, forever our lives are intertwined. My wife says don't throw me away, I feel that is psychological manipulation, one cannot "throw" a human being away, I don't have that power. As far as I can discern, everything I do for her now, I can do as an ex-spouse, what I don't understand is why she wants to be married to me even if we are never deeply bonded. I feel like a prostitute, just being used for her well-being, my well-being of no import. I just need to be fixed, an attitude adjustment. Ok ok, so our lives are not a "mistake" nor are our 4 children a mistake. It was just a way to make a point about fitting, maybe I need to be more sensitive in my choice of words. Life is life, we are where we are, is pointless to think in terms of mistakes, that is blatant rationalization, I know I know. My only focus is whether I want to choose my wife...freely choose, no coercion, no guilt, no history, no committment, no nothing....just do I choose her, and she me...on her part, no settling for what she has, no fear of being alone, abandoned, no history, no nothing...just me. Maybe I am setting unreasonable standards, and as some suggest will never be happy cause of it, but what do I do new, it is how I feel, how does one ignore how they feel? Yes, I have read links, I have read EVERYTHING on this site, and told my wife as well. She did order the book his needs her needs, we'll see. Is still unknown whether we go to marriage encounter this weekend, as of this morning she refuses to go without a gaurantee from me. If we don't go, I would imagine seperation within next few weeks is next. Regardless of final outcome, being in the same house is a hugely stressful thing at the present...in addition her father is very ill, and she is having major menopausal hormone adjustment issues, is a very bad time in her life, I am not making it any easier, and may be best if I am just not here, so she says anyways. But then she goes nuts if I start agreeing, mostly I say and do very little, but that in itself makes her angry *sigh* I don't know what to do. She will not discuss (without huge emotional outbursts) this stuff, so is why I am boring all of you. She only wants to talk about her....the story of our life.

<B>I love deeply and hard, and need to be loved the same way. I tried with my wife the first 10 years to love that way</B><BR>So you‘ve stayed together for 23 years now. What event happened to make you want to just “give up?”<P><B>23 years meets any reasonable standard of committment</B><BR>But you signed up for life. Don’t you remember your wedding vows? Or at least the intent of what your marriage was supposed to mean?<P>You are looking so hard to try and find a way out which will be “amicable” if not friendly & fun for all! Why not stop & take a look and decide that 23 years of marriage is a lot to give up and do something to make it worth you while for the next 23 years?<P>Talk with your wife. You say both of you are not happy. Why not work together to make a marriage worth having, one where you will look forward to seeing each other?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>

S&L,<BR>You wrote:<P> "I understand your identifying with the BS, but plz understand, all these feelings and thoughts existed prior to the ow, I had already decided we could not go on as we were. "<P>I stand by my question to you in my last post, which I noticed you have not as yet answered. If, as you say, things were so sad or miserable for you for so long, why didn't you take some kind of affirmative action...or end the marriage? Or, perhaps you did do some constructive things and didn't mention it yet. Did you try counseling? Did you go to a pastor, priest, rabbi or what ever religious leader is germaine to you? Did you ever sit your wife down and tell her you were unhappy and wanted a change? If the answer to that one is "yes", then did you take some kind of action either singly or together to rectify the situation? Please understand I don't mean to badger you, but if I can get some answers from you or someone who is also a WS, then perhaps I can better understand why my own H allowed temptation to nearly destroy his life and mine as well. <P>You also wrote:<P>"I think there is little in life (maybe nothing) more important than loving rightly, and that is a matter of the heart." <P>Please, if you would, could you define what you mean by loving rightly? To me, loving rightly means having made what you preceived to be the right choice in a mate at the time you made it and then letting love build and grow from there. If, as you say, this has not been your experience, then we go back to square one: why did you stay for so long and/or perhaps took no affirmative action to help make your marriage better? The reason I am asking is, again, because I am trying to understand my own situation and what happened in my marriage. If I can understand, then perhaps my H and I can both work on it, to prevent this kind of thing from happening to us again.<P>As for the "fog" issue, I believe I mentioned that in my last post, too. You said something about your never thinking so clearly before, and let me tell you, that is only about half right! People caught up in the excitement and passion of an affiar are not thinking with their brains, S&L, because if they were, they'd realize that the things that they do affect everyone else in their lives, in one way or another. Lack of concern, caring, and consideration for others fly out the window when the hormones start to flow. This so-called fog is a combination of raging hormones, excitement and guilt all running rampant at once. Adrenaline starts to flow big-time, and therefore the illusion of "I've never thought so clearly before!" takes over. In reality, the betrayer IS thinking, but only of his own self and his needs, wants, and desires. Before long, rationalization and justification take over and they are nothing more than band-aids for the guilt that is felt. The really funny part is that people who are doing something they should not be doing are often as transparent as glass. If they think for one moment that their excuses, reasons and "causes" for their affair should be readily accepted and understood, they are sadly mistaken! <P>As for the love issue (you said you loved the OW) Love and lust are two different things, and woe to the person who doesn't know the difference. Lust fades, love doesn't. Perhaps you DID marry your W for the wrong reason, but you had plenty of time and opportunity to set things right. Love takes TIME, lots of time to grow and become solid. Lust is a quick fix. It is thrilling, exciting, breath-taking and all suddently seems clear. Wow! I've never taken drugs, but know people who have and this sounds a lot like it. Do you really think that being "in lust" is a good time to make major life's decisions? Don't bet on it, because you'll lose!<P>Now, please let me say this to you, too: I am truly sorry that you are so unhappy and that your experience being married wasn't happy for you, either. No one should live their life like that. But..I still would like to know why you took so long to make your decision and why you chose to be unfaithful to your wife when being honest with her in all things (past, present and future) would have given you different and perhaps better results? <P>(and, Bravo! to the person who wrote in their reply to you that "I've never loved you" is about the cruest thing a person could ever say to their spouse. Amen...ditto, and right on! Been there, heard that, too and it purely stinks!)<P>Wishing eveyone here better days ahead,<BR>Winny<BR>

Sad_and_lonely,<P>You have so many words... so many words to sift through... I wonder what's really going on in your head...<P>I want to help you, really I do. I *was* you once and I *was* your W five times over. The PAIN, THE PAIN!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>If I understand right, your position is that divorce is acceptable, but only after you do the work. That work consisting of some time applying principles such as MB.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Hmmm... well... kind of, yes. Actually, what I have come to believe is that divorce is acceptable when the BS (that means betrayed spouse, which in your case would be your W) can't handle the pain any longer and/or has lost the love for the WS. <P>I have been accused before of preaching "Do as I say, not as I do" and this might be another time when I'll hear it. I don't care... it is my truth. I filed for divorce after my ex-H had his fifth affair (that I knew of) and clearly was not going to try to work on the marriage. I did still carry a love for him and could have EASILY fallen madly in love with him again, had he allowed it. Instead he heaped on more pain... I simply could not take it anymore.<P>I met someone else very soon after I filed for divorce. Big mistake!!! I have layed my soul open here on the boards... it was wrong because I hadn't grieved my loss, and neither had the new man in my life, who was going through very much the same situation as I.<P>I ended up moving in with him and am engaged to him now. He and I have talked about this... and I can tell you that had my ex-H gone to counseling, fought for me, dropped his OW, I would have given him yet ANOTHER chance, because I still loved him-- right up until the end. But he didn't do any of that... and he regrets it now, but still hasn't gone to counseling, still has his last OW, and only recently has asked me if I would reconsider the marriage. I won't. I'd had enough. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>As for all those years down the drain, I understand the sentiment, but it is not a factor in my thinking, IMO history plays no role in assessing whether one is or wants to be bonded. The history will exist whether we are married or not, forever our lives are intertwined. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Huh? I don't get this at all.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>My wife says don't throw me away, I feel that is psychological manipulation, one cannot "throw" a human being away, I don't have that power. As far as I can discern, everything I do for her now, I can do as an ex-spouse, what I don't understand is why she wants to be married to me even if we are never deeply bonded. I feel like a prostitute, just being used for her well-being, my well-being of no import. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Listen! Your W is crying out to you. This is the same woman who is abusing you?? <P>As far as the "prostitute" remark... sigh... if that is how you HONESTLY feel, then I'm sorry... but I suspect that before you met the OW you DID NOT feel this way.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I just need to be fixed, an attitude adjustment. Ok ok, so our lives are not a "mistake" nor are our 4 children a mistake. It was just a way to make a point about fitting, maybe I need to be more sensitive in my choice of words. Life is life, we are where we are, is pointless to think in terms of mistakes, that is blatant rationalization, I know I know. My only focus is whether I want to choose my wife...freely choose, no coercion, no guilt, no history, no committment, no nothing....just do I choose her, and she me...on her part, no settling for what she has, no fear of being alone, abandoned, no history, no nothing...just me. Maybe I am setting unreasonable standards...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Yes, you are, but you already know that, don't you?? Your W will never be your ideal woman, EVER, will she? She can't possibly win!<P>Instead, you're being asked to "settle" and that infuriates you, right?<P>You know what, sad_and_lonely? I have a bottom line response for you: as long as the OW is in the picture, you will not see the truth. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>She will not discuss (without huge emotional outbursts) this stuff, so is why I am boring all of you. She only wants to talk about her....the story of our life.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of COURSE she is going to have "huge emotional outbursts" -- man, her H of 20+ years is in love with someone else and doesn't give a crap about her. <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited May 01, 2001).]

Dear SadandLonely,<P>You are struggling with this harder than almost any betraying spouse I have read about. But I have the sense that you have framed your questions in a way that leaves only a few possible answers. I would like to help you re-frame them. However, I dont' know you or your wife, and I don't know if that is possible, or if it will help.<P>I recently wrote a post about love (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/008639.html). In it, I summed up my own experiences. I am a betrayed spouse, and I have watched the love my wife had for me disappear completely, and then grow and bloom again. That is an immensely disconcerting experience, and I, too, have thought long about love. My central conclusion is this:<P>Most people assume we love our partners because of who they are. I think this is because we want to believe that we are loved for ourselves, for our own true natures. That would be the ultimate form of self-affirmation. BUT IT IS FALSE! (At least in my opinion). <B>We love our partners because of what they give us, and what we give them, because of the total sum of the interactions in our relationship.</B> And thus we must be conscious of those interactions, and constantly monitor our behavior so that we (a) give our partners the attention and support that they need, in the manner in which they desire it, and (b) we understand ourselves, and let our partners know our own needs, so that they can give us the attention and support we have to have.<P>If that is true, the key is your actions and interactions, not your essense or that of your wife. Perhaps this is overly simplistic, but why not think of one or two things that you and your wife enjoy doing together very much, and do them frequently for the next few months, while you mull over your life?<P>I wish you well in your quest,<P>StillTrying

Well I felt left out and I have read the "whole" thing and S&L I thank you for your input to this forum and I think you have made many people think,,,<BR>the fact that you want others input tells me that you want someone to hit the right cord to make your change your mind or give you a "magical" type of solution to your dilemma.<P>One question you have posted and I am not sure I saw a clear cut answer to "what is love" .. well I for one have been the ws and the bs in my marriage (see I have been blessed by being able to be on both sides,, I see it as a blessing instead of a curse since it has allowed me to be compassionate to my H,,, I think God knew I needed to see both sides since I am not sure I would have been so forgiving when I found out about my H if I didnt know how he felt,,, I admire the people here who have Plan A and have been only the bs and have been succesful at saving their marriages,,ok I have way got lost!) but you asked how do you know you love them... i thought i loved the OM who I had the EA with untill I kicked my H out of the house when I found out about his PA (silly me thought a PA was worse,,, shame on me) but that weekend when I was alone,,, I cried for my H, I dreamed about him and my body ached for him... <BR>that is love to me <BR>ps... we are together and progressing<BR>my fog lifted quickly ....tho i have felt at times depressed for loosing my friendship,,, i rather loose that friendship than my 19 year marriage and my H<BR>dps... good luck S&L

S&L,<P>I have been reading this thread with great interest. I sit here with this deep compulsion to reply, but I don't really know what to say. Now, many here who "know" me will say that it never stopped me before so why let that stop me. <P>Knowing that is what they probably do think, I will respond with my confusion. <P>I read your post, and I see myself without the affair. I came to this site because I felt many of the things about my marriage and W that you have articulated. I look inside myself and I see what you say you feel. That hurts. I guess the reason I remain here and in my marriage is that after reading here for 6 months and then finally registering, and posting (>1.5 years) I began to see things in a different light, and it saved my marriage. <P>I will admit, that my W hasn't changed, although I would like to see some actions that resemble love to me, however, what I did realize that perhaps some of what she did was her way of showing love. I won't go further here but to say, what changed was my perspective. So I remain married.<P>Now I read what you have said and I think about one of my siblings. If I were running his life, he would be divorced. His W isn't really a W at all and he is married primarily for the children. I suspect he could have written your post. Should he stay married, I guess, but none of us wanted him to marry this woman, his parents weren't happy, her parents weren't happy, the minister counseled them not to get married.<P>I am pro marriage, but I see marriages that shouldn't exist, from the sounds of yours it meets that classification. Yet... Yet, there is a concern I have and others have articulated it. Without the affair, you may not be in this position, would you be happier I don't know, maybe not. We all fear the fog is making you see no hope for having the marriage you desire, not the one you had.<P>I agree with NoMas ( I know that will shock him), people getting married are in the "fog", people in affairs are in the fog, so who has the right to declare someone is in a fog? Darned if I know? I also know that even the Harley's don't expect every marriage to make it. The approach here is to optimize the chances that a healthy, yes even happy marriage can be built.<P>But I do know from reading here, when people come out of the "fog", they see things differently, they cease to rewrite history, they have some optimism. So maybe that is the definition of the "fog"; you can come out of it and see things as other people do. Perhaps my sibling was in a "fog" when he married against all advice. I don't think he is in a "fog" now, but he is still married.<P>So I guess I am thinking if you didn't have an affair and you came to this board with the same outlook, and perspective on your marriage many here might suggest that a divorce should be considered. Some would suggest that divorce makes a lot of sense. Some would suggest that bibilcally you are stuck and should remain married. I guess I would have suggested that you talk with your W, tell what you are thinking, and see if you and she could change your perspectives. I did, and it saved my marriage.<P>You see, I don't believe people change much. But I do believe that people can change their perspective on something and act accordingly. For example, what would the perfect mate be for you. Talkative, concerned, giving, sensitive, perhaps a bit amorous in bed . Is there something preventing your W being those things? I doubt that there are, other than her perspective on what a good spouse should be and what a good mate will tolerate.<P>Like no other time, she may be ready to change her perspective. If she doesn't, and your perspective about events and her feelings turns out to be an accurate reflection of hers, then I would say you are not in a "fog". But I sense, you two aren't there quite yet. I like others worry that the presence of the OW in your thinking, feelings, and heart is not allowing you to be a flexible as you need to be in order to change your perspective and receive those of your W.<P>I would finally suggest to her, that if she has any hope for your marriage seeking guarentees about a marriage workshop is not a good idea. If things could be guarenteed, she nor you would be in this mess.<P>I am sorry I have nothing concrete to offer you S&L. Just some ramblings. I like other do worry about your perspective, but if it is correct and your W cannot change hers, then perhaps you are right. It is time to go. But I would counsel you to read here much longer, talk with your W, and seek the advice of a pro at rebuilding marriages (not saving them), that would be someone like the Harley's. I hear they are very good at rebuilding. You don't want to just save yours, that I understand and agree with.<P>God Bless,<P>JL