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Joined: Oct 1999
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My H and I have been married for 15 years. He had an EA/PA in 1997 that lasted for a few months. The affair ended with him confessing, I didn't suspect a thing! Although contact did not end at that time; there was still phone and email contact for a month or so after. Needless to say, I was devastated and went thru all the emotions. We have worked very, very hard to put our marriage back together after the devastation. I thought that we finally had the perfect marriage...with no un-met needs. Since then my H has been very honest with me and given me no reason not to trust him until recently. <P>H started a new job about 3 months ago and since then I have seen some changes in him that I'm not comfortable with. He seems to have made his new job his #1 priority, before this I felt that me and our family came first no matter what. In his first month at the job he started going out with his new coworkers quite a bit...at least 6 or 7 times in the first month. I was never invited to come along, in fact he told me that he wouldn't feel comfortable bringing me around them yet as he hardly knew them. One night he didn't even tell me he was going and didn't answer his phone when I tried to call and see where he was and why he wasn't home. Red flags started going up!<P>Then he began talking about a girl in the office A LOT!!! He got to know her real fast! He knew quite a bit of personal info about her and talked constantly about how much "fun" she was and how "funny" she is....GAG! One evening he came home and said that he thinks she has a crush on him! When I asked if he felt the same, he couldn't answer me. He's usually very honest with me when he finds someone attractive. In fact we've both agreed to be honest when we find someone attractive and not keep them a secret because I believe that secrecy is one of the things that breeds affairs. However, he would only tell me that he liked the attention and the fact that she adored him but would NOT admit to feeling the same way about her.<P>Now fast-forward to this past week. He confessed over the weekend to having LIED to me 2 times last week. He went out "with the guys from work" thursday and friday of last week and withheld it from me! Not only did he withhold it, but he flat out lied when questioned about his whereabouts. He did not just offer up this info, it took me all weekend to drag it out of him! He claims that he lied because he thought I wouldn't let him go since he's been going out soooo much lately. And he STILL has never brought me along with him!<P>Some other little things are that he's been snappy with me on the phone when I call him at work. OH! I almost forgot....I also found him in the bathroom at 4am crying his eyes out the other night! When I walked in he straightened up and went back to bed. Also, the other night when he'd had a lot to drink he told me "that I don't understand his feelings and that he can't talk to me because my family and friends will give me bad advise about him". When I asked the next morning what he meant by that he of course "didn't remember saying it....just drunk babble"!<P>I'm going crazy here and my gut is screaming!!!! I feel like there is something wrong here, but he swears that there isn't. But how can I believe him when he lies SO well (I learned that from his affair)!!!!!<P>Please, any advise would be great....or even just a "you're not just being jealous, insecure, or crazy" would be nice. Thanks....

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Hi there,<P> You are NOT just being insecure, jealous etc.....the bells are ringing for me. Does he know the consequences if he cheats again? <P>Have you been in counseling? I think you are right to worry, after being betrayed I think we all develop a finely honed radar.......Is there someone you can talk to? How about Steve H?.....he gives great advice..........LU

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I wish I could say that I think you're nuts, or that you're just being jealous. I think you're instincts are dead-on. Sounds like there are definite problems... Have you two attented the MB weekend? If you were faithfully following the policy of joint agreement, this wouldn't be possible. Have you two discussed the problem of him going out so much, etc... Are you two getting 15 hours per week of undivided attention? Are his ENs identified and met? The woman sounds like a definite red flag!! I don't know what to tell you, except that I'm sorry and I hope things work out for the best. I'd be very suspicious. Maybe check his e-mail, phone records, etc... How much have things changed FUNDAMENTALLLY since the A 3 years ago??

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Lu and OpenHeart,<P>THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU both for the reassurance that I'm not just over-reacting! <P>We never attended counselling when his affair happened before, but I'm seriously considering it now and have talked to him about it. He did everything that I needed him to do to help me and our marriage heal before. 4 months after D-day we moved several states away at my request. We talked the affair to death! He wrote the no contact letter and did everything that I asked him to do. And he worked EXTREMELY HARD to build my trust back...which is why I don't understand his mishandling it now! He admits that his behavior has been suspicious, but he denies an affair and has an explanation for everything! If I listen to him long enough I start to believe him, BUT if I look at his actions they tell me otherwise! <P>OpenHeart, since the affair and up until now, our marriage has been wonderful and he has been the model husband. I can't imagine that he has any unmet needs....we spend lots of time together talking and having a blast! Our children are finally old enough not to need a sitter and we go out a lot. Our sex life is fabulous! We're both attractive and in shape so I know that we meet that need. We have a nice home and family. Not a lot of money issues since he got a big raise with the new job. And I really do adore him and compliment and support him alot. Things seemed perfect until recently!!!! <P>It's just that lately it's obvious that he is TRYING to create distance between us and has been spending a lot of time going out with his new coworkers....he is aware that I am not happy with this. I don't mind him going out with them occationally, but it's way too much for me now. And I'm not happy that he never brings me with him....he has invited me a couple of times when he KNEW that I couldn't go because of other obligations. And I don't feel very welcome at his new job. It's like he literally changed over night!!!! I feel like any POJA that we had before has gone right out the window! <P>As for checking his email, this is what happened. Yesterday he had his work email pulled up on the computer and I asked him what him and this girl at work email about. He told me "work stuff" and then shut the program down without letting me take a look!!! I feel that if he had nothing to hide then he would have let me see it. We got into a huge argument over this and I hate that, we haven't had fights like this in 2 years! And before this he never hid anything from me and always gave me his passwords.<P>Anyway, thank you both for being supportive. I just hate not knowing for sure what is going on and I hate feeling this way again. I hope that it turns out to be my imagination, but I think it's looking worse by the minute!

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I really don't think this is the time to turn a blind eye and HOPE! I think you need to take action NOW b4 it is too late! The fact that you caught him crying alone in the bathroom is the ANSWER that something is going on that he is not telling you about. People don't cry unless they have a reason, so unless there was a death in the family, or he went bankrupt then i think it is time to face this head on.

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Hi Angelface,<P> I agree with Trying.....you need to act NOW before things go too far. Don't we all wish we had heeded our instincts or knew things SOONER the first time?<P>You might want to consider talking to Jennifer or Steve Harley.....they will guide you and give you a plan.I always got more out of one session with Steve than weeks with other counselors....he's great at getting to the point. You can do this by yourself , if your H won't agree to it.<P>Good luck, girl....keep us posted. LU<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Lu (edited May 16, 2001).]

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Trying, thanks for replying to my post. You are right, I know that I have to take action now. I'm thinking that marriage counselling would be a good place to start. I just can't believe that he is lying to me again, knowing the heartache that I went thru last time. I also agree that something is definitely wrong if he's crying in the bathroom in the middle of the night!<P>Lu, thanks again for your responses. I will for sure consider a session with Steve Harley. It's just so frustrating to feel that we are taking giant steps backwards, after working so hard to move forward! All this new stuff that's happening is boggling my mind!<P>Thanks again to both of you.....

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Hi Angelface:<P>If we can believe what Harley says about affairs being addictive behavior then it is not too far a stretch to believe that like alcohol or drug abuse...the abuser sometimes thinks that a little exposure to the addictive substance will be alright. I'm not saying that your H is having another affair...but I am saying that his behavior is placing him in danger of having another one. His description of his interaction with the woman at the office is highly suspecious...he is obviously getting great enjoyment from it....a prelude to an affair???....maybe.<P>Recreational activities with his buddies from the office from which you an excluded...why? If it really is just innocent after office mixing then why can't he invite you so that you can experience it and understand that it's no threat.<P>I think you're right to bring this to a head now...perhaps he doesn't realize the road he's starting down again...perhaps he thinks it is just innocent fun...denial...denial...denial....but there is always the chance that he doesn't realize the danger and what he stands to lose.<P>As to meeting all his ENs there are some needs that just cannot be met because they are too great for one person to supply...that why I think you are right in seeking counseling...you may be dealing with behavior that he cannot control by himself and he may need professional help before he realizes that. I think you will be doing not only him but yourself a favor while this activity can still be dealt with without tearing apart what you have worked so hard to rebuild. I wish you luck and am praying that whatever is troubling your H can be resolved by the two of you working together...as you would on any common problem.<P><BR>Faye<P>

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Faye, you have put my exact feelings into words! I really don't think (but I don't know for SURE) that anything physical has happened between my H and this woman. However, he is enjoying her attention and putting our relationship in danger. He's creating a lot of distance between us with his behavior and I'm affraid that it's an "affair waiting to happen"! Nothing I say to him is getting thru. I told him how his going out with his co-workers all the time without me was bothering me. And he promised to change that; however he didn't, he still went and lied to me about it. He swears that nothing wrong has happened....but he is the master at double talk, talking in circles, shifting the blame, answering a question with a question, denying and CONVINCING! I swear he should have been in politics...LOL! He has an excuse for everything and makes me feel like I am over-reacting. I am very worried that he is no longer putting our relationship/friendship/marriage first. Anyway, thank you very much for your thoughts on this.<P>

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My heart goes out to you. My husband too is sooo good at convincing me that his actions are "normal". I like you would know how I felt, would know that the actions and words did not go together, yet I would start to doubt myself. Bad!!!!<P>Number 1, you do have a problem. If he has not yet begun an affair it is definitely in the making. The crying the bathroom bit makes me think that something has gone on. He knows the hurt he has already caused you and his guilt is eating him up. Will it change things? Probably not.<P>Counselors can help but beware, they can only work if your husband is willing to look deep inside himself and not give excuses for his behavior.<P>They did not work for my husband. He was very defensive, and plain said he would not talk to someone who did not know us, our situation, etc. I think the counselor struck a nerve. Also, his lies and excuses didn't work. With me it is a different story. I had always wanted to believe. Much easier than facing the truth I guess.<P>My question to you is simply, "Can you go through this again?" If, after creating a relationship like you've had for 3 years do you have what it takes to "give him another chance?" <P>I do not know what is best for you. For me I could not take it.<P>The fact that you also adore your husband, meet his needs etc. what more can you do? <P>Please write back, your story touches me deeply, I am sooo scared that my husband will do the same thing.

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Angelface,<BR>I'm so sorry, my gut clenched in sympathy just reading your posts.<P>His behavior isn't right--the crying, the lying, the "she's got a crush on me", not inviting you. You know that.<P>In your place, you really need to decide what it is you want and can do. Can you go back to Plan A? Or is it "that's it!" If you want your marriage, you're going to have to do some really hard work again, I'm afraid, just to knock him out of this party boy mode--whether he's done anything or not, depending on what you consider "anything". <P>Before going out, my H calls, or calls when he's gone out for a "beer" and gotten there or lets me know in some way. That is our agreement. Post A-He almost always invites me, and doesn't restrict his going out to my work hours so that I can meet his "people".<P>My H resumed his affair a couple times after confessing, although the time frame was months, not years...each time I couldn't believe he would do it/hurt me again. If you are like me, your lovebank will drain very quickly...until I was the one who did not want him back. Those promises don't mean dogdoo once they've been broken yet again. My H worked very hard to make it work...after 7 separations, that sounds cynical, but I respect his tremendous effort over the last year. He's earned my respect.<P>Your H may just be floundering, but if he doesn't stop slopping around, he will go under. He's playing a dangerous game. You know that. He may be "testing" himself. Well, dang it, he's failed.<P>If you aren't in counseling *yourself*, I'd highly recommend it. I'm not sure I'd even invite the H at this point, but I would tell him I was going. I think Steve or Jennifer would be an excellent choice if you don't already have someone you trust and knows your situation.<P>All I can think of is set your goals, set your boundaries, tell him you love him...and whatever comes after that for you. <P>Lord, I hope he's just being stupid and not doing anything ugly.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

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k9love, It sounds like we are married to the same man!!! I've told my H many times that I am mad that he makes me doubt him, BUT I am furious that he makes me doubt my own self! Last night we were talking about this mess and he was reassuring me that he hasn't done anything wrong and his words sounded so comforting and believable....but then this morning I'm alone with my thoughts and I know that something isn't right and he's full of BS. It's like he clouds my judgement! I guess that he wouldn't be able to do that if I didn't love him so much. He's, like your H, very defensive and has an excuse for everything!!! I'm going to try my hardest to look only at his actions and not let his words convince me that nothing is wrong. I just cannot believe that he would jeapordize all of our hard work and rebuilt trust for "NOTHING"! <P>LorLor, Thank you for replying. To answer your question...I'm certain that I would leave if he is starting another affair. There is NO WAY that I could go thru that again, and he knows it! I commend you for your stamina and dedication that it must have taken to go thru so many false recoveries. Each time was your H able to convince you completely that his A was over? Or did you still have doubts and that "gut feeling"? My H lied about his affair a lot during the first year of our recovery, trying to "protect" me and never telling me the whole story.....AND I BELIEVED HIM EVERYTIME! I'm beginning to wonder where my instincts are....but he is a VERY good liar and I never knew that until 3 years ago! <P>Everyone seems to really appreciate the Harley's counseling, so I think I'm going to set up a phone session with him. I just can't believe that after 3 years of hard work and dedication that I am once again feeling like I have to fight for my marriage!<P>Thanks again to you both for your replies.

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Angelface, if you want to see what he is doing on the puter you can get this software for $50 <A HREF="http://www.spectorsoft.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.spectorsoft.com/</A> it is completely invisible and will log every keystroke and take screenshots. One way to find out about the email. Another idea is to check your temp internet files in the windows folder. I know I would be following and checking this guy's every move if I were in your spot, it really sounds suspicious to me sorry to say.

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ScaredInNY, thanks for the info, the only problem is that my H works with computers for a living. He is very, very knowledgable about them....he's the best I've ever seen! I really wish that he would just be honest so that I don't have to snoop, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. He's got his story and he's sticking to it! Any other ideas that don't have to do with the computer?<P>Thanks again....

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Private investigator?

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AngelFace:<P>Yes, it does sound too similar for comfort. My husband too , in the past would have "female" friends. But there was nothing wrong with this you see, as there was no sex going on, and he wasn't doing "anything"<P>After his A, I also found out about a "friend" he had been keeping close tabs with, she too lives in another city. Seems she knew more than I did. He had told her he was having an affair. Makes me want to barf!!!!<P>I knew this girl, casually, apparantly her and my husband had been keeping in touch over the years. <P>The OW, I met her, knew about this "friend". Floored me.I felt like everyone but me knew the man I thought I knew as my life partner. <P>Things have changed as far as my acceptance of these friends. The intent to mess around may not be there but when you start letting another woman know more about you than your wife, let's just say *** will hit the fan.<P>When I discovered the A I made him move out because of the fact that he was sooo good at manipulating me. I knew I had to stand back and see him for what was going on, not for what he wanted me to believe.<P>His A was built on telling us both what we wanted to hear. He told the counselor this, what a guy. Now, I don't give a poop to hear "what I want to hear" I want truth.<P>I was glad to read in your post that you cannot tolerate this again. I too feel the exact same way. My god if after what you've been through he could do it again, what is there?<P>The book, Monogymy Myth, written by Peggy Parish I believe talks about a couple who dealt with infidelity. BUT once discovered and the healing process began he changed. I do not believe that it can truly be beneficial for anyone to stay after the first disclosure, If after he has promised to work on the marriage what choice do you have?<P>I respect anyone who deals with this more than once. I admire their ability, but I cannot do it.<P>Let me know how things are going for you.

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The software I mentioned runs in stealth mode. No icon, not in system tray- not detectable. It sends reports to you via email as often as you like up to every 30 minutes, can send the email to anywhere you say including your work so he wont see it. The eblaster line is the one that screens all his email from what I see there. There are other brands of spy software out there too I know, but don't know the names offhand. If anyone wants to pitch in the name of another feel free. I wouldn't worry about using this or another similar type of stealth mode spy software. If it's not in the system tray or task list, no icons etc, he isn't going to know until it's too late. Besides, if you are the less technical one it would be the last thing he would probably be expecting from you, therefore probably wouldn't even consider it.<P>

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James Dobson, Love must be tough. Read it and then ACT NOW... every day he gets deeper and deeper and you LOSE infulence. If I had acted FASTER over a year ago I may have saved my marriage. But by the time I had enough proof to confront fully, she was already emotionally gone. Too late. Your best chance is NOW, your 2nd best change is 1 minute from now and it keeps dropping. ACT, CONFRONT. But read Dobson first. Prepare.<P>

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Oh My God you poor thing<BR>Im sure we all feel very deeply for you and are all praying for you, and wishing you strength and courage<P>firstly definately ring the Harleys for advice PRONTO<BR>and follow it to a tee<P>me... I would ring this girl up, say your new here and making friends and invite her out to lunch<BR>and then proceed to tell her how much you love your H and all about your life together etc to suss her out<BR>but thats me!!<P>please keep posting, wishing you luck!!!!!!!

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Gotta go with Also on this one. Make your own moves. He's being strategic, you do it too. But I have to object to some of the other advice. I would not go into email or do snooping with hidden software. Look, this kind of behavior is degrading, even if it's emotionally justified. The truth is going to come out no matter what and the spy tactics are only going to hurt your own soul. You don't need it, you get nothing positive, just negative. I would definitely do what Also suggests: figure out who this girl is and make a move on her. That is bold and not secretive, it shows courage and self-confidence. No mouse here! H has gotta know you're a powerful force, he has to be taught RESPECT. And yeah, he is definitely bs-ing you. And since you have this history, you're justified in thinking it's a EMA, or the brink of one, or already an emotional EMA no matter what. You're in it already, more than likely. So make your move: make this thing hit the light of day!<P>Little story: my H cheated on me last year, got involved with a younger woman, fell head over heels in love. So we move, but this love thing goes on long-distance, and every time I discover it hasn't ended I'm more enraged. One day I'm in the park with the kids and meet this guy, he's late 20s, a bit younger than me, really good looking, also with a new baby. We talk: attraction. Meet every weekend for months with the babies. His fiancee knows, my H knows, and I'm keeping close track of where this is headed, knowing I'm not going to do an affair, but ---I admit it!--- wanting to, just hurting so bad for someone who really really appreciates me after all the crap I've been through and am still going through. But this one: yeah, out of bounds, no matter what. So when we've started meeting for coffee during work hours across town without the kids I call it quits cause the conclusion otherwise would have been inevitable. I want, he wants, I've been screwed, he's ambivalent about the woman .... yadda yadda. Never have seen him again, and HE was relieved too. The decision came after the girlfriend contacted him on his cell phone while we were at the park together and invited me over for lunch, which I accepted. Got to see how they live. Baby in mama's arms. Even BSs need a reality check when the temptation arises, at least some of us, and though I "knew" I wouldn't go all the way before the encounter with the finacee, how can I really be sure now? It was seeing her that did it absolutely. Light of day.

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