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#931481 07/21/01 11:13 AM
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I don't know why I'm posting this. I guess just to get it down to refer back to later and to fess up to you all who can assess what, if anything, I should do as a result of these mistakes.<P>Plan B with kids. There's got to be a better way. It's not reasonable to have an intermediary - what person in their right mind would agree to such a concept? I'm sorry, I just don't think this is as well thought out as other MB principles.<P>Based on a conversation <son> had with my wife on Wed. or Thurs. (a few days ago) I became aware that W wanted to take him to her parents for her Mom's birthday today (Sat.). I never got an e-mail or voice mail from her about this, but I was planning for <son> to be going with her for at least the day.<P>This morning <son> called her to find out when she was coming to pick him up. When he got off the phone, I asked him what the plans were. He said she was coming to get him about noon. I asked when would he be back? He didn't know.<P>Dern, now what do I do?<P>Knowing this was wrong, but feeling I had no choice, I asked him to call her back to find out what her TOTAL plans were. He did and she promptly told him that he's not allowed to pass messages back and forth between us and she wouldn't tell him anything. Double dern. She is correct about this. It's prohibited in our separation agreement, but she's certainly not helping matters.<P>So I immediately called her back, in violation of Plan B:<P>Me: Excuse me, but I need to know your plans for today with <son>. I have a life, too, you know. I need to know when you plan to bring <son> home.<P>Her: You know we're not supposed to use him to pass messages.<P>Me: Exactly! You didn't send me any messages about your plans, so how am I supposed to know? <P>Her: I plan to have him today, tomorrow, and Monday.<P>Me: But you had him all last weekend.<P>Her: I know, but you have had him since Tuesday, so you've had your four out of seven days. (We have a 50/50 custody arrangement roughly approximating a 3 or 4 day share per week.)<P>Me: We need to set up an every-other-weekend schedule.<P>Her: Fine.<P>Me: I intend to take him to <the beach> next Wed., Thurs., and Friday.<P>(There was some additional conversation about future plans with <son>.)<P>Her: When are you planning to go to <former neighbors house in N.C>?<P>Me: After <son's> birthday.<P>Her: You need to tell me these things. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] And, I don't appreciate you discussing our problems with <former neighbor> or any other friends. Our problems are none of their business and you shouldn't put them in a position caught between us. Why did you tell her about the letter you sent me? (This person was Godmother to our deceased son and is a very close friend of my wife and I. I have discussed our situation with her and she's provided valuable support. I recently explained Plan B to her and described the letter. I haven't asked her to intervene for obvious reasons. No telling what she's heard from my wife.)<P>Me: I couldn't agree more about allowing friends to be caught in the middle. Then why did you first discuss our problems with <OM>? (A pallbearer for our son and her former best friend's H) Are you ashamed of what <former neighbor in N.C.> thinks? Why did you tell <OM> that I hid money to avoid paying for <deceased son's> funeral? That really hurt.<P>Her: I didn't tell him that, blah, blah, blah!<P>Me: Where else would he hear it? By the way, everything in that letter was sincere.<P>Her: Are you going to take me off the mortgage?<P>Me: Yes, as soon as you pay up all the other money you owe me.<P>Her: What other money? I paid you the taxes.<P>Me: The itemized list I provided to you at the same time as I provided the tax info.<P>Her: You didn't give me an itemized list. What's on it?<P>Me: (Wanting to end this conversation) I'll send you another one, updated to include recent expenses.<P>Her: What expenses?<P>Me: Au pair expenses, baseball expenses, and a bunch of other things like the au pair's auto insurance.<P>Her: What? I'm not paying for her auto insurance!<P>Me: Read the separation agreement you wanted. You agreed to pay half of all expenses associated with childcare. I wouldn't have this expense if not for childcare.<P>Her: I'm not paying for it.<P>Me: We also have a $5000 school bill due by the end of this month.<P>Her: Well, you have some expenses you owe me for.<P>Me: Fine. Send me an itemized list.<P>I then ended the conversation as nice as I could, but I was mad.<P>Dern. Why didn't I end it after knowing her weekend plans? Gotta do better. I was really upset with myself and went to sit outside. In about a minute <son> brings me the phone.<P>Me: Hello?<P>It was W again.<P>Her: How much is <au pair's> auto insurance?<P>Me: (determined not to screw up again) I don't know exactly, it'll be included in the itemized list I'm sending you. Is that all you need to know right now?<P>Her: Why are you paying for insurance for her?<P>Me: It's the law.<P>Her: We never paid it before with the other au pairs, why are you paying it now?<P>Me: Do you need anything else right now?<P>Her: I don't understand.<P>Me: This conversation is over.<P>At one point during these conversations, she claimed she agreed to talk to Steve before she got the Plan B letter. I know for a fact this isn't true. I simply reiterated several times that she hadn't answered my e-mails about this (whether she wanted me to make the appointment for her or not) and she needs to do a better job telling me in advance about her plans with <son>. I didn't bother to ask if she would still talk to Steve.<P>She also said at one point that she's not ashamed of anything she's doing now, insinuating that she no longer is involved with <OM>. I also know this isn't the truth, either.<P>I plan to produce a comprehensive financial summary showing all the expenses she owes me and I'll send a copy to my attorney.<P>OK, kick me for screwing up Plan B. I am determined to not let it happen again, but with <son> as a moving part, I expect that other opportunities will come up to make mistakes. <P>One potential benefit, maybe. By the tone of my voice and other not-so-subtle phrases, she should have gotten the clear message that I was no longer kissing her butt, Plan A style. Maybe this is what prompted her to call back, seemingly changing her mind about paying for auto insurance.<P>WAT

#931482 07/21/01 11:28 AM
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Wat,<P>You are not going to plan b jail. oK? You are doing fine. Yeah, you could have laid off the snide remarks a bit but under the circumstances and your personality, they were said and you needed to get the stuff off your chest. Remember the stuff I said and did? In plan B, I took a bag of laundry to OW's house, remember?????<P>You have the right to request info and itinerary info. You both owe that to each other. Don't make your son feel like a pawn and neither should she. Another thing, don't read into her insinuations. Make her tell you up front. Remember the denial stuff? Built on insinuations. Stop that. Disregard those comments. Erase them from your memory banks. Buzzzzit. Gone!!!!<P>Plan B does not have the same LB criteria as plan a. Don't keep comparing it and bringing yourself down. H & I communicated in plan B about specific items (from me - son, money and mail). H tried other stunts (I let him), I replied briefly to some of his comments (the ones I chose to comment on) and then stuck to son, money and mail. You will get the hang of this soon. <P>Get out and enjoy the good weather and do something nice for yourself today and this weekend!!!! Let us know how you are doing. We are here for you, pal!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>L.<BR>

#931483 07/21/01 11:35 AM
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I don't think it's possible to do a full plan B when children are involved. The only way around it would be to have legal papers drawn stating specific days for visitations. That's alot of time and money, and all the more difficult for the kids.<P>IMO, I don't think you broke your plan B as much as you think you did. After all, you were sticking to financial aspects and visitation times with your son. Granted, your comments and talking about the OM and neighbours etc, that should have been excluded (not that it seems possible the way the flow of the conversation went).<P>I also see that she forced you into breaking your plan B by not sharing her plans with your son. She tried to break you a bit, and somewhat succeeded. I don't have any suggestions on how to keep it from happening again, except that I think it's fair that your son be able to share with each of you the plans for visiting. <P>Is it part of your separation agreement that she contact you via phone or email to give you the plans with your son? If so, then she's in breech of contract to some degree, isn't she?<P>Don't feel down. Think of it this way, you've got the weekend to yourself. Do something special for you, and have fun.<P>Karen<BR>

#931484 07/22/01 12:05 AM
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Topie25 suggests legal papers drawn up on specific visitations as more difficult on the kids, I have to disagree with that. Having very specific visitation is better for the kids. There's more stability to it and it gives them a pretty good idea of who they're with and when.<P>I don't happen to agree that your w should wait til the last minute to fill you in on her plans. I think as soon as your son mentioned anything about this little outing you should have been on the phone with her to find out more details. You should have been the one to call her back and ask for more info, not your son. To me, that was wrong.<P>I also think it best to keep all conversations to the kids. All other issues should be done through your attorney to avoid arguements.<BR>There will come a day when some of the anger and bitterness between the two of you will be calmer and phone conversations will be more pleasant but for now don't set yourself up for frustrations you don't need.<BR>(just my thoughts for the day!)

#931485 07/22/01 12:07 AM
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I think you handled yourself nicely WAT. And I agree that maybe she realized the A$$ kissing days were beginning to wane. You may have blown away just a bit of fog, if only for a short time.<P> Hang in bud. Enjoy the weekend as best you can.<BR> <BR> Jerry

#931486 07/22/01 12:11 AM
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Thanks, Ladies.<P>Karen - It's not part of the separation agreement to specifically contact via e-mail or phone about son issues, but it is part of the agreement to have a mutually acceptable sharing scheme. Because of her work schedule, I was real accomodating during Plan A, but she got most weekends which I think was unfair and too much to her advantage. Now I plan to get at least half the weekends. If her schedule prevents her from getting her half during the week, too bad.<P>It was in my Plan B letter to limit communication to only voice mail and e-mail - which she's honored until today, but we didn't have anything to communicate about.<P>I am going to see Brian Wilson and Paul Simon in concert tonight. Bought a single ticket and got a good seat because of it. Jimmy Buffett and I are gonna slow cook some ribs on the grill for Taz and I this afternoon.<P>Thanks again Karen and L.<BR>Dave

#931487 07/22/01 12:16 AM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shedawg:<BR><B>Topie25 suggests legal papers drawn up on specific visitations as more difficult on the kids, I have to disagree with that. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I am still learning how to get my thoughts in print to be more clear (grin). My suggestion that it's more difficult on the kids is because if visitation is the only thing that keeps mom and dad talking, at least they're talking. In my own experience with my parents when they were going through their divorce, it was really hard on me that they wouldn't talk to each other for about a year. And I was 17 at the time. To me, it made me feel even more caught in the middle, so I'm just concerned that WAT's son may feel the same way. It's not a nice position to be in.<P>But as far as the structure and certainty plans like that make, I"m all for it. Kids need consistency (and so do the rest of us if we can do it).<P>Karen<BR>

#931488 07/22/01 12:18 AM
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shedawg - I agree totally about the issues with my son. In hindsight, I should have determined her weekend plans right away, but she had several days to communicate this via e-mail and didn't. I will not ask him again to communicate for me. It IS wrong. But she sure did the same thing, didn't she?<P>I hesitate to pay attorneys for non-immediate communication we can handle via mail.<P>Jerry - thanks, but I didn't do as good a job as I should have. Hey, it's water over the dam now.<P>Dave

#931489 07/22/01 12:28 AM
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Dave,<P>As usual you are being much too hard on yourself. YOur W should let you know her plans, period. You should not have to ask. <P>enjoy your free time.<P>I am heading out to the pool with my eco bk. I hate marco, not to fond of micro either. Well really it is the math I hate. I am going to go bake.

#931490 07/22/01 12:32 AM
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Topie25, I think it's sad that your parents weren't able to come together with at leasta civil bs conversations for your sake.<BR>That seems to happen alot. Two grown adults who once loved one another become so self absorbed that they forget to be civil if for no other reason then for the good of the kids.<BR>(not implying your folks did this) I see it alot. I personally can not stand my X, he makes my skin crawl, but, we do have a daughter and I have always refused to argue with him when she is in the same house as me. He would call and i would answer the phone and he would start in on me and I'd just smile and say that's nice and good for you and I hope all works out, just so my daughter didnt think we were fighting, of course, it also mad him twice as mad so that was an added bonus for me!!<P>As far as the time and money it takes to have attorneys handle all the tiniest of details was well worth it for me. I made it so no discussions had to take place between the two of us, therefor no reason to fuss and fight with our daughter around.<P>It took almost 5 yrs, he's a tad thick headed, for my X to realize that he coldn't bait me, that I would keep my mouth shut to protect my daughter from our disagreements. Up until March we've managed to have a pretty good working relationship that made my duaghter feel good and that is what was most important.

#931491 07/21/01 01:38 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by worthatry:<BR><B>I am going to see Brian Wilson and Paul Simon in concert tonight. Bought a single ticket and got a good seat because of it. Jimmy Buffett and I are gonna slow cook some ribs on the grill for Taz and I this afternoon.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Dave, you are one PARTY animal [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P><P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

#931492 07/21/01 02:47 PM
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Hi Dave,<P>First, you may not be aware of this but it is against international law to keel haul a man with tickets to Brian Wilson and Paul Simon. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] So you skate this time. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>As for Plan B, remember its purpose. It is to prevent you from losing what love you have left, and it is surely true that this exchange didn't do anyones love bank any good. But, I believe it is acknowledged that where children are involved the PURE PLAN B cannot be done. Further, the Plan B has eliminated the biggest withdrawal and that was her showing up at your house and making herself at home.<P>So my opinion, you cannot avoid communications, but you can minimize the lose of the love bank. Best you can do, so hang in there.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

#931493 07/21/01 03:26 PM
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Hey WAT. That concert sounds awesome. Good for you! Go enjoy yourself!<P>Ah yes, we all make mistakes in plan B, don't we? Especially with children. That is definately the hardest part. Next time you talk to Steve (or anyone else for that matter) you should mention it and see if he's ready to do a column on the best way to deal with this. I think SO many would be interested...<P>You're too hard on yourself. Yeah, you shouldn't have got your son involved, but hey, it's what you thought was best at the time. Now you know not to do it again, we learn from our mistakes. <P>As for the other stuff, sounds like quite a few LB's thrown in there from both sides, so if you can avoid these conversations in the future, well, you know...<P>You're doing great, much better than me <smirk>!! Now you know one of her tricks to get you to talk. Don't fall for it again. I'm wondering if you should send her a short email that says:<P>"If possible, I would like to try and setup a firm schedule so these mishaps do not occur in the future. <state schedule here>. I will be sure and contact you via email several days PRIOR to any changes that need to occur in the schedule. I will expect you to do the same. If you do not divulge your plans prior to <son>'s pickup, then I will feel free to make plans of my own including <son> for that day.<P>WAT"<P>What do you think?

#931494 07/21/01 05:15 PM
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WAT<P>The Plan B police are off this weekend...lol. You are doing fine and I agree with everyone else....you are too hard on yourself. The old KISS principle is best used here too...Keep It Simple Spouses!!<P>I know how difficult the shared custody thing is, and I don't know how feasible it is for you, but if you can get an agreed to, set schedule of weekends and times drawn up by the attorneys and get it approved by the court, it does make your Plan B much easier, and cuts down on contact. Right now, she has way to many ways and opportunities to push your buttons, and vice versa. That can be kept to a minimum with a straightforward document, that only needs to be amended for emergencies or *special considerations*.<P>You reacted like any of us would, and you have a right to the information, but again the visitation document allows you to make plans on your alternate weeks/weekends and go ahead with your life. It was one of the best things for the kids too, because they knew who, when, where, and how long they would be with one of us. It was easier for them in terms of knowing the schedules. Most states now require a parenting class for those divorcing, and that agreement is brought up as being less stressful for the kids than anything else, and it should be about them, rather than the *squabbling* adults. (Sorry, I am not calling you a squabbling adult!!...LOL)<P>Have a great time and enjoy the concert!! Hope you have a great weekend!!<P>*Go confidently in the direction of your dreams.*<P>Trueheart<P>

#931495 07/21/01 05:39 PM
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Dave,<P>Reading your conversation with your W made me think of one thing - the pursuit-distancer relationship. You have been Plan A'ing her (maybe the pursuit) and now with Plan B, you are definitely distancing yourself from her. I have read about this and wonder if her calling you back was a reversal of the pursuit-distancing? You back off and then she calls you??? I agree with trying to do as much of Plan B as you can, with kids. Difficult to do, as you definitely need to communicate for your son's needs. But, as others have pointed out, only do what you need to do to take care of your son.<P>Remember that one of the purposes of Plan B is to give your W a sense of what life without you will be like if you do not get back together. Maybe it is not so hot for her. Living separately with a child involved is no picnic - brings other daily problems to deal with - the scheduling, the expenses, the communications snafu's etc. This experience may give her cause to re-evaluate her situation and think that you and the marriage are her best options. At this point, you have nothing to lose to stick to the course.<P>Pulling for your family,<P>Desiree<P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

#931496 07/21/01 05:58 PM
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Just wanted to lend my support. I can't imagine how hard plan b would be...let along with kids....plan a is hard enough...<P>I would say the next time you learn of her plans through son (so I find it curious that you could not verify plans through same said son), email her a note that you need verification along with your future plans...maybe make some kind of calendar form out and attach it to email where you each can fill in your plans--days, times, etc. then she can fill in her's and send it back...that way you both have a complete calendar of what your son will be doing, with whom and when....just an idea.<P>BTW--I think LB's are negated on Friday nights and Saturday mornings...something about the gravitational pull on the moon...at least I hope so...cause apparently I have LB'D this morning...I'll update later for everyone's response.<P>Cali

#931497 07/21/01 11:33 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Plan B with kids. There's got to be a better way. It's not reasonable to have an intermediary - what person in their right mind would agree to such a concept? I'm sorry, I just don't think this is as well thought out as other MB principles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When all else fails, ask the coach. Call Steve. I'd give you odds he can clean this up in under 3 minutes. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Based on a conversation <son> had with my wife on Wed. or Thurs. (a few days ago) I became aware that W wanted to take him to her parents for her Mom's birthday today (Sat.). I never got an e-mail or voice mail from her about this, but I was planning for <son> to be going with her for at least the day<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It doesn't matter what she "wants." First question… was it her weekend? If not, then simple answer is, SON DOESN'T GO without email (not phone!) confirmation of when he is going/coming home (and your house IS his home). If it IS her weekend, and intrudes on your time, send an email stating he WILL be home at the previously appointed time, unless otherwise arranged via email. It's not your job to make her life easy right now; quite the contrary… one aspect of Plan B is to show her what her life will be WITHOUT you meeting her Emotional Needs.<BR>Not a big deal on breaking Plan B, Dave… fine tuning is all part of it. Keep the conversations with her as minimal as possible, and businesslike whenever they are unavoidable. I think you did fine [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

#931498 07/22/01 09:41 AM
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I'm talking to Coach Steve on 7/24.<P>It's harder shaking the Plan A habits than I expected. But, in one aspect, I've been doing parts of Plan A all my life. I'm not saying this to sound righteous, I just tend to want to please people when the stakes are low. I mean, I am known professionally as a tell-it-like-it-is type who doesn't flinch at telling the higher ups he's (or she's) dead wrong - when they are. But when it comes to personal relationships, I generally treat people like I want to be treated with a bias towards pleasing even at my expense. This doesn't mean I've been perfect - far from it. My angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements contributed to the environment that made the degradation of our marriage possible.<P>One thing I'll discuss with Steve is, "Where's the balance between looking out for myself and coming across as mean and vindictive in Plan B?" If you're trying to avoid a divorce, it doesn't make sense to me to take actions or inactions that are just gonna PO your spouse and justify their intentions. I mean, I can force my wife to conform to a strict visitation regimen, force her to take the dogs, prohibit her access to the au pair, and all sorts of other things that I am justified in doing, but this certainly won't make her see me as worthatry. I'm a big advocate of "play the role, pay the toll," but it certainly has a downside if you're trying to offer a safe haven for reconciliation. Maybe this is the point - I tried that and it didn't work, so I need to do another 180, so to speak?<P>What am I missing?<P>Dave (WAT)

#931499 07/22/01 10:16 AM
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Hi Dave, it seems to me that what you are missing is your boundaries.<P>Plan B is about YOU, just as Plan A is.<P>Plan B in and of itself is a giant boundary - but for your sanity and your son's security, you need a set schedule. Sticking to it is not vindictive - if your motivation is about caring for you and your son, and not about trying to get her to do something.<P>Sometimes it's the motivation behind the action that makes all the difference. <P>It would be nice, in a better reality, if your wife treated you with respect, let you know about her plans, and cooperated with you about visitiation. But she isn't. The reality is that she is going to take everything she can get as long as you choose to allow it.<P>If what she wants doesn't interfere with your plans, and you choose to go along....thats great. But if what she is demanding and doing is causing problems in your life, then its time to set boundaries and insist on sticking to plan. Taking care of YOU is not vindictive. Taking care of you does not make you unsafe either. Detaching with courteousy is key here.<P>I hope your chat with Steve goes well.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

#931500 07/22/01 11:02 AM
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Dave,<P>I think you've got lots of good advice. I'm mainly just popping in to see what is happening. I haven't been on as much lately.<P>I hope the call goes well with Steve and you get some good advice.<P>There is fine tuning with Plan B, as I think WhoDat said. The logistics can get very complicated. I've had to do some fine tuning too. You are handling it all well. Good luck on 7/24.

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