Hello MBers,<P>I know you guys are out there. Many of you are still visiting here regularly but posting infrequently. I do the same thing!<P>My husband's affair was going on two years ago at this time of year. I didn't know it yet, but the bottom was about to fall out of my world. That happened in September of 1999. I laid in bed for four days, torn between being afraid that the hurt was going to kill me and hoping that I WOULD die to escape it. On the fifth day I sat down at the computer and found MB.<P>And I realized that I wasn't alone in this agony and that survival WAS possible with or without my husband. I lurked here for two months and read every single word before I made my first post. I was welcomed and supported. I made cyberfriends that gave me great advice. They helped me live through it when I found out eight months later that the affair was going on again. They helped me and my husband (firestorm) turn our marriage around and head in the right direction. Counseling with Steve Harley gave us the map to get to where we want to be. We are still on that journey to recovery.<P>There were not as many posters then as there are now, but we all seemed to be committed to the MB principles. There were disagreements sometimes but, with very rare exceptions, we conducted ourselves well. Even the occasional interloper was dealt with with compassion and (for lack of a better word) CLASS.<P>It occurred to me tonight that if I had left MB a year ago after DDAY #2 and only returned today, I would think I was at the wrong address! In fact, the address seems to be about the only thing that hasn't changed! I honestly wonder how much MARRIAGE BUILDING is going on in this site right now because I see very little.<P>This place really helped save my life, my sanity, my family, and my marriage. It did the same for many of you. PLEASE let's come out of the woodwork and see if we can help to get things back on track so that it can provide the same help for others.<P>Please share your special thoughts and memories from your MB past on this thread. Make some suggestions for ways to get this forum back to the safe haven that it used to be. Share some ideas for returning this site to the focused supportive place that it was for us.<P>Thanks!<P>Peppermint

Peppermint:<P>MB has saved zorweb's and my marriage. The principles do work. And 98.76 percent of my posts (or some number akin to that) deal with people facing the issues my wife and I had when I had my affair, and we were stumbling around.<P>Fortunately, like you, we (well, she) found Dr. Harley's books and MB and it was a breath of fresh air blowing the fog out.<P>Now, to address the "rudeness" that you perceive. The price of success? Possibly. However, you must look at the historical perspective of people such as HumbleDorkFish.<P>Yes, we could ignore her. Yes, we could be all mamby-pamby, mealy-mouthed and enable her. There comes a point where it is no longer help we offer; but codependency in some sick game they play.<P>So, it comes down to the iron fist in the velvet glove, doesn't it? Particularly when you have somebody like Dorkfish going off to gloryb.com to post, cackling about her "adventures" here. Sometimes, Peppermint, tough love is the best course.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but we all seemed to be committed to the MB principles. There were disagreements sometimes but, with very rare exceptions, we conducted ourselves well. Even the occasional interloper was dealt with with compassion and (for lack of a better word) CLASS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Only "Old Timers" understand MB principles? Only Old Timers comported themselves well? Only Old Timers have compassion? It would not be hard for the non-astute to see your phraseology as condescending and lacking class. It could be construed as me saying, "I helped build the World Wide Web ... see what you johnny-come-latelies have done with <I>my</I> web!" (As an aside, Al Gore was not in evidence when we in the Government were architecting it.)<P>HumbleDorkFish was accorded a warm welcome, however <I>her</I> conduct over the past several months, her badgering and bad-mouthing of the regulars here <I>who do seek to apply MB</I> has reached a head.<P>Infrequent visitation by "Old Timers" lack the overall perspective of the current crop of frequent posters. So, therefore, judging the conduct of current posters with only intermittant eyes-dropping and no currency and perspective of current threads and inter-relationships, and then posting snide comments of the "superior old days" smacks of patronizing condescension.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It occurred to me tonight that if I had left MB a year ago after DDAY #2 and only returned today, I would think I was at the wrong address! In fact, the address seems to be about the only thing that hasn't changed! I honestly wonder how much MARRIAGE BUILDING is going on in this site right now because I see very little.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You also cite that you only occassionally look in. There is a hell of a lot of marriage building going on. There are a heck of a lot of true MB believers here (me being one of them). See posts by zen, WAT, JustPlainCali (and her myriad other names), Rick37, MarkC ... the list goes on and on. What gives "Old Timers" a patent on insights and understanding? No moreso than the current bunch.<P>You Old Timers don't like the way things are going? Then lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. I will semi-apologize for the previous statement, it is a semi-vent. You aren't the first (nor probably the last) "Old Timer" to say what you said (I just happened to have insomnia and was online.) Posting once a month does no one any good. It saved your marriage, your life, you say? Good. Return the favor, help save someone else's.<P>Why do you think my wife and I post? Because of that very fact ... this site helped recover our marriage and our sanity. So we keep posting because we want to give back to the community that helped us. We do get into lulls ... answering every post every day would be a fulltime job. But we try ... as do countless others here, many of them almost daily.<P>So, a word to <I>all</I> Old Timers. You aren't the only ones who have Seen The Light. You aren't the only ones capable of carrying the MB torch.<P>So stow the self-superiority and pitch in and help, dammit ... there are a lot of people out there that could benefit from your successes. But no one benefits from posts that belittle the current crop of people caught on the rollercoaster you were on two years ago.<P>As for making this a safe haven: it already is. Ask Cali, ask countless others who have poured their hearts out and been directly or indirectly attacked and had the community circle 'round the wagon.<P>OK ... to use an analogy: the pioneers pushed out ahead. Sometimes the cavalry has to ride out. In this case, a self-appointed mission, yes. Hmmm ... so were the last 8 of my 10 years in active service. So were all my years of National Guard time. Moderators can't be everywhere: nor is it usually appropriate for them to intrude. So we hearty not-quite-frontier folk rally 'round on occasion and give the marauding indians what-fer.<P>As the Alleghonquin Indians say: Neh ka neh tah. We lead, others follow.<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 28, 2001).]

STL,<P>You quoted "rudeness" but I didn't use that word, so maybe you have my post confused with another. Also, I neither said NOR implied that only old-timers understand MB, have compassion, etc.<P>As to my being "condescending and lacking class", go back and read your own post. And you can "construe" that any way you please.<P>I did not "cite" that I only occasionally look in. I read the posts on this site nearly everyday. I reply when it is a post that I have knowledge enough to help with and if there is a different perspective from the other replies.<P>I am certainly aware that you and your wife are frequent posters. I wish more couples with recovering marriages could do the same. I am glad to see you "carrying the MB torch". I simply thought you and your wife might want some help. My mistake. You can have your "semi-apology" back to make up for it.<P>By your edict, I have three options. I can "lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way". I don't want to lead you and have no desire to follow you. Therefore that leaves me with the choice of getting out of your way. Consider it done.<P><BR>Peppermint<p>[This message has been edited by peppermint (edited July 28, 2001).]

Hi peppermint. My regards to firestorm. I hope you both are healthy.<P>Let me referee here a little.<P>You and STL are both right, but, STL, take a deep breath. I think you read too much into her post, but I understand your perspective. I'll call my self a "bridger" - not as "old" as peppermint, but been here a long time. I plainly see both perspectives you both have addressed.<P>The big change in this site is its population. This finally came into stark reality earlier this month with the server problems brought on by too much traffic. Steve and I discussed this recently - the population increase is sweet and sour. With it comes more opportunity to help more people, but it also brings technical problems and "popularity" of a different sort.<P>This brings me to the discussed issue. Attitude.<P>We no longer have the "good ole days." There are a heck of a lot more moving parts. There is much more diversity and yes, those who seem to be interested only in disruption.<P>I too, have been frustrated and wrote some things I shouldn't have because I got sucked into the dark side mentality - trying to fight fire with fire instead of cooling it off with kindness. Just like affairs, we're all susceptible to it.<P>So, this is our current reality. We DO have people participating here who are not sincere. This seems to be a change brought on simply by having more people here. I don't know what to do about it. Maybe it's no more complicated than dropping back to good ole reliable Golden Rule. Maybe that's naive.<P>Dave (WAT)

Peppermint:<P>You did not directly state "rudeness" ... that is why it was in quotes. You implied it in the tenor of your post.<P>The lead, follow or get the hell out of the way was a challenge to post more frequently. I am sorry you feel as if you must "get out of the way." The intent was for you, and Old Timers in general to be more proactive.<P>The people who have gone before have success stories to relate. Have seen things that work, that have not worked. The MB principles are a framework to apply, not a rigid dogma. Having active participation by those well on the road to recovery would be a blessing and example for many (including myself).<P>As to being "condescending and lacking class" ... my statement explicitly said that a <I>non-astute</I> person could easily see it that way. I am, I believe, fairly astute. I got your overall intent and laud you for it.<P>You got partially in the way at a general Old Timer vent ... as I pointed out.<P>... Dave ... thanks for the white-and-black shirt ...<P>I alluded to population increase. Ergo, more population, more chance of friction. And we all are susceptible to human frailties such as anger and other emotions of the moment.<P>What I would <I>love</I> to see are the Old Timers (and the Bridgers ... is that Jim Bridger, by the way?) ... those who have seen and experienced successes using MB's tenets take a more active role.<P>And not take an occasional potshot lamenting the "good old days" ...<P>So, post, post, post, Peppermint: give heart out there to those who need the beacon of success to take that next step, that next breath ... that is the gauntlet I would lay down to challenge those who have gone before.<P>WAT:<P>Check out <A HREF="http://www.zorweb.com/refmat/ms.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.zorweb.com/refmat/ms.html</A> ...<P>[Peppermint: yep, you were right, I miscited ... you specifically stated you look in frequently and post seldomly. I apologize for that.]<P>Godspeed,<BR>STL<p>[This message has been edited by SeenTheLight (edited July 28, 2001).]

You should be a little milder in your tone--this was exactly what Peppermint was trying to say: "Old Timers, post more."<P>I have a great huge amount of respect for this lady, though I don't think that I have ever written to her directly and told her that. I don't believe that she deserves this harshness.<P>Some old-timers don't post all that often because they have fallen out of touch--it is hard to keep up with the individuals here when you have a busy schedule. Some have had a good start in recovering in their marriages and the heartbreak and pain manifested on this site brings back only horrible memories--time to move on to make good memories. And then there are some like me, I guess, I really don't have anything that valuable to contribute as my marriage has pretty much been at a standstill. He is confusing and growing stranger everyday and detailing every little point does not feel theraputic to me, just bothersome.<P>It is not "reflection on the good old days" to state that MB is much different than it was even a year ago. My first post was on 24 July 2000 after a coupla weeks o' lurking. True, back then, there might a particularly confused person that appeared now and again--but always with questions and a desire to set things straight, whatever the case may be. This has been the Summer of The Weirdos--people that have no constructive reason to be here other to lash out at other people and spout corrupt ideology. Why this is, I don't know.<P>This is a wonderful site--it and the people here, a few having become close personal friends--have made me so happy in the face of the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I too, wish that things would turn around a become what they were: therapy, friendship, companionship, education. I lurk everyday, but rarely post anymore. However, I am really beginning to hate all the dumb fights, namecalling, sarcasm and put-downs that seem to be humorous, but are really serving to egg the jerks on. The "recipe" threads are so dumb.(although I have collected many great recipes--one of my hobbies) I think that when an ignorant person appears and tries gets a rise out of constantly publishing bullcrap, they should just be ignored until they disappear. It's like little kids saying "I know you are but what am I?" back and forth--it's not constuctive and it takes up space.<P>Peppermint knows what she's talking about.

<P>23 months here at MB......<P>please, Peppermint....<P><BR>Hold the door for me......<P>I'm right behind you......<P>Dylan<P>ps:<P>the fact is that some of us "old-timers" and 'veterans' of MB have been here for almost 2 or more years, you cannot discount the fact that yes, perhaps we do indeed know more about the principles (having applied them for this long)...or that we have seen a larger spectrum of stories and experiences......<P>Peppermint and a few others (K, JL, Heartpain, Nyneve, myself, Samantha....etc...have posted these 'types' of threads for 3 months now.....<P>but, of course since we are so mired in the self-importance of being old-timers, there must not be any merit to our feelings.....all of us must be wrong, and he-who-jumps-in-with-insults....<P><BR>oh nevermind.<P><BR>23 months here at MB......<P>please, Peppermint....<P><BR>Hold the door for me......<P>I'm right behind you......<P>Dylan<P>

Many of you "old-timers" probably don't recognize me but, Peppermint, I was right there with you in 1999. I found this site almost immediately and I read and read and REread everything on here before I even lurked at the forums....I think the MB concepts saved my marriage and my sanity. <P>I printed out concepts, questionnaires, anything and my husband and I both latched on the mb priciples. <P>When I finally was brave enough to venture onto this board I lurked for weeks before ever posting. So many different situations, yet so many could have been me! <P>I have the greatest admiration for those that could/can/do take the time and FOCUS long enough to answer/help/support so many. I unfortuantely am not one of them. I still have trouble FOCUSING long enough to post, questions or responses....<P>-Brighterdays<P><p>[This message has been edited by brighterdays (edited July 28, 2001).]

Peppermint,<P>I agree with you completely! I have been here for 19 months now and for a while now, I feel the forum hasn't been as "Marriage Builder-ish" as it used to be. <P>Everyone used to welcome new people and give them lots of support and advice. If they took that advice, that was fine. If not, that was fine also. There weren't all of the "disrespectful judgements" that you sometimes see now. If an OW posted and tried to hurt others, we ignored them. Eventually they went away. It's not much fun to kick others when they're down if they see they're not getting to you! <P><BR>Good to hear from you again!<P>Mitzi

It's hard to give a great welcome to every newcomer on here. I know I've tried, but I'm still a fairly 'newbie' myself. So even though I'm in recovery thanks to the MB concepts, I'm still a rookie.<P>When I joined a few months back, the person who seemed to be the official welcomer was able to cover them all. NSR (Jim), has now been moving on with his life because of his new job. He just doesn't have the time anymore, and that is totally understandable.<P>I have noticed that Nyneve has made similar welcomes like NSR used to always do... but again, she's busy, and can't do it all.<P>I don't know what MB was like before I joined (obviously! LOL), but I have noticed a huge number of 'newbies' in only the last few weeks even.<P>If any of you want to see this board get back to where is used to be, you're going to have to be the ones to do it. If you don't have the time, which is totally understandable, then I really don't see how you can expect it to happen on its own.<P>Think about it. I know nothing about putting a computer together. If someone told me to put one together, I'd have no clue. But if someone who knew how to do it were to guide me through the process, I could eventually do it on my own, and in turn, teach others as well.<P>Karen<BR>

I agree that the principles work, and that those of us (be they oldtimers, veterans, or simply well-educated posters of any vintage) who have expereince using them can help by posting more often.<P>Problem is that most of us never really HAD hours and hours a day to hang out here...we were in agony, and so kept coming back, often at the expense of other things that needed doing. At some point, one has to limit one's time a bit more. Then there's also the "emotional drag" factor...sometimes you need to take a break to heal a bit more.<P><B>The other problem I see is that it gets very old trying to redirect people who come here without reading any of the materail first. </B> After a while, you feel like you are wasting 90% of your time anyway. It seems that since the site update (which I mostly love), we get a lot more clueless folks who have not read the basic concepts at all.<P>As I recall, you used to go thru the "Welcome to the Forum" screen to access the boards (which directed you to read Basic concepts, etc) now folks often appear to go directly<BR>to the boards (I assume via the "quick clicks" on the right on the homepage. IMHO, this is a BIG problem...some new folks flounder for days b4 anyone directs them to read the basic material, and some experienced posters get tired of "redirecting" and give up. If possible, getting new folks to go thru that "welcome" screen again would be great.<P>I took a 3 week break a while back, as I was just overloaded, but found myself drawn back, because I really DO believe this site made a difference to me & so many others. Like Peppermint, I think we all just want it to do the same for others.<P>Kathi<P>

Karen,<P>That's just the type of thing Peppermint was trying to do on this thread. And look at the type of response she got! It's kinda disappointing when that happens.<P>Mitzi

Mitzi:<P>I think one of the biggest downfalls with online posting and chatting, is that it is SO HARD to find the right words that won't get misinterperated in some way. Smilies, Frownies, and exclamation marks just don't cut it sometimes. <P>I tell my H to F. Off all the time. WHAT??? How can I rebuild my marriage using such vulgar language? See, you can't hear the tones I'm implying. So, I'll add that those words only come out when he's giving me tickle torture and I'm crying with laughter while trying to tickle him back. <P>Karen<BR>

Karen,<P>Most of the time, it's fairly easy to tell tone in writing. In the threads relating to Humblefish, there is definately a sarcastic tone and a lot of disrespectful judgements. Not exactly a fun exchange of conversation. And a few posts on this thread were rude. (Not meaning yours! )<P>The MB principles should be applied to every person in your life and every situation, not just in a marriage. <P>Mitzi

I registered at MB 12/98...counting on my fingers & toes...33 months? No I don't have that many fingers & toes . I still post pretty much everyday. H & I are together, I rarely need advice--and it always seems to come down to "wear a thong". <P>And for the "bridgers" & newbies, there are friendships beginning & building. They do support each other.<P>Peppermint, you were always good , but there were sometimes when I was filled with so much pain I'm not sure my posts to others--especially a drop-in OW--were positive.<P>I think about leaving, but I feel so indebted to MB--there through my 2nd through 7th separations and now the recovery. <P>And so, I pay it forward...I don't read every thread. Although I recognize all the names on this thread, I wouldn't want to have to write an essay on each one . <P>But on a specifically worded post you don't have to know everything.<P>I wrote a reply earlier in the week to a newbie saying "do Plan A" the poster writes back "but we aren't having sex now what do you say" I said "do plan A". Sheesh.<P>I don't spend as much time, all the time, as I used to, but I make a point to look for those difficult posts or no repsonses...I can address separation, mulitple Ddays, his nearly 2 years of fence sitting, being both WS & BS, having that "inappropriate male friend" during my H's PA, my serving the D papers. Ugly stuff. I didn't handle everything right, sometimes I wonder how we made it (faith in God, MB, a great counselor). But I know what my H & I did that was good, that makes it possible now to lay in bed and giggle. <P>I also miss my "contemporaries" that were fighting their battles at the same time, like you Peppermint, but how long do we stay? New people still arrive daily. I'm aware I compartmentalize my MB time from the rest of my life. This is where I review my current actions and get reminded "oh yeah, lovebusting isn't productive." Duh. <P>Oops. I rambled. I miss rambling . <P>Peppermint, Soulloss don't be banging out that door. I'll miss you.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things." Phil 4:8

HI all,<BR>I have been at mb since abt the beginning of 99. Yikes-now there is a scary thought!!! <BR>I feel we all need little reminders as to why we are here. <BR>Words, and sometimes actions, are easily misinterpreted. I often catch myself writing in snippets-which are easily misinterpreted as short and rude. If I was speaking the same words, the inflection and body language would aid the listener and they would know the real intent. <BR>I know that I read some things and totally miss the boat. Depending on my mood and time, I try to ask for clarification.....good intentions but I know I fail at that more often than I succeed. Maybe some of us should pop in more often and offer more guidance?<BR> <BR>Nice to see you all. Have a great Saturday. <BR>From the oldy & moldy cl<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mitzi:<BR><B>Karen,<P>Most of the time, it's fairly easy to tell tone in writing. In the threads relating to Humblefish, there is definately a sarcastic tone and a lot of disrespectful judgements. Not exactly a fun exchange of conversation. And a few posts on this thread were rude. (Not meaning yours! )<P>The MB principles should be applied to every person in your life and every situation, not just in a marriage. <P>Mitzi </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm glad to know that my post wasn't interperated as rude.. b/c it wasn't meant to be. <P>As far as the Humblefish thing goes. I'm at a loss. I want to start a thread suggesting that people just stop reading her stuff. But to me, that's only adding fuel to the fire. In some cases, avoidance is really the best option. I personally haven't a clue what's going on with her and why people are so upset. Why? Because I don't care about her. She originally came for help here, and I believe I may have even posted a response back then (not sure though... and knowing me, I was doing my best at staying as neutral as possible.. the only time I lose my neutrality is when I get p.o'd at someone's WS by the hurt they're causing the BS and kids... and I want to beat some sense into the WS!!.. okay.. I've rambled again.. oops! ).. anyways... I'm avoiding her posts. Even now, I don't feel the urge to see what all the hubbubb is about. I'd rather use my time (which I really need to cut down on) on people who want help at their long term goal in rebuilding their marriage.<P>Peppermint: I'm sorry for whisking your thread off on a different tangeant.. but I don't feel comfortable starting a new thread on this HF person. But I've been DYING to say something about it.<P>Karen

Hello There Dear Peppermint!<P>I've been wondering about you and Firestorm the last few weeks, as I hadn't seen you pop in in awhile! Hope all is well with the both of you.<P>I've been here 23 months now, as I lurked for 2 months before posting. H and are blessed to have a marriage better than we ever dreamed possible now. I can relate to what you are saying. It is "different" here in the last 12 months or so. I think some of it is due to sheer volume and Kathi is right, things have been more chaotic since you can go directly to the boards without first getting the prompt to read the material. Maybe that is something Steve can help us with. <P>There is less tolerance now for differing points of views. It used to be, that when a different opinion was expressed, it was not felt necessary to jump in and "correct" the other or force one's own opinion as the "right" one. It was simply left for the original poster to determine if it offered anything of worth for their own situation.<P> At the risk of being flamed myself, I will say that there is too much commiserating going on here. Commiserating is helpful in small doses but it can also help to keep people stuck in the same old rut and victim role if not tempered with constructive ideas on how to move up and out of the misery we all share/have shared. Sometimes posts of this nature will go on for 2 pages without the benefit of contructive ideas on how to either change the situation or view it in a different light. Commiserating at great lengths also keeps the mood of the board depressed and hopeless and I think that contributes to the lack of posting by the more experienced members. I know it does for me. Sometimes it is just too overwhelmeing to try to cut through all of the tragedy to be a small voice calling out in the wind. You end up feeling that you just don't make that much of a difference for the amount of emotional energy it takes to read and digest the post and then send a well thought out response. <P>It takes a lot of mental and emotional energy to keep coming here once your marriage is recovered. There is no way to respond to all of the tragedy that continually mounts here without becoming effected and carrying that back to your own marriage which you are trying to recover. That's why I can't respond more than I do. I have been feeling, for the last 3-4 months that it is time for me to leave this place. I haven't because there are a handful whom I have become concerned and interested in the outcome of their situations. Sticking around, has the added effect of drawing me to stories who are so much like my own, that I feel an almost sense of urgency to post and offer help. So, I am still here but probably not for too much longer. I need to start putting my focus totally in the forward direction for the sake of my dear H who has evolved into the most wonderful man I could imagine and whom I wouldn't trade for the world. <P> Peppermint it was very good to hear from you. Your concerns and observations are valid. I just don't know if there is much we can do to change things to any great degree. God's blessings and the best to all of you!

Off topic here…….<P>Topie25,<P>The fuss about HumbleFish yesterday was because it has become evident that she did not come here for help. It’s been an ongoing game for her. She is a regular on gloryb.com (aka REM). She thought this was all rather funny. So those who had put a lot of energy into her were royally angry when she started calling MB’s manipulators, etc. <BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011112.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum37/HTML/011112.html</A> <P>I do not believe she will be back here as her game is up. <P>Z<BR>

TO STL:<P>That poor woman Peppermint was just trying to make some constructive comments, and you WENT OFF ON HER! What is your PROBLEM????<BR>Maybe it's time to increase the dosage on your psycho medication.