Well, I guess that all good things must come to an end. Even though I was hit with a 2x4, it only came to me slowly that my welcome here has worn out. I've grown tired of the posters who won't listen to anything but what they want to hear. I feel sorry for them, because they will never recover their marriages until they realize that(in most cases) <I>they</I> have been an active (or passive) participant in the downfall of the marriage and production of the conditions that allowed the affair to happen. Before someone jumps my case about the above, I believe with all my heart that one <B>cannot</B> "force" an affair by your spouse or that the BS has <I>any</I> blame for the affair. However, too many of us minimize our contribution to the harm we helped cause to the union.<P>Good advice is rare anymore. "Throw the bum out" or "You shouldn't have to take that crap" are typical responses to a WS's bad behavior. Even when a replier points out self-improvements that need to be made, they are drowned out by the cacophony of voices that encourage blaming the WS or the OP. When someone comes here in pain, instead of encouraging them to pull themselves up by their "bootstraps", they are showered with meaningless platitudes that will do nothing to save their marriage. When there is good advice about getting their act together, it is swamped with disrespectful judgments about the person giving the "wise" advice and complaints about they style in which it was delivered..<P>You know, sometimes the BS needs to be whacked upside the head with the 2x4, not just the WS. But with the current "leadership" on the board, this isn't allowed unless you want to help "gang up" on those "they" select as deserving of criticism.<P>It's probably only a phase in the life of the board, but it has grown tiresome. Few people anymore even bother to read the information on the website before jumping in asking for advice and giving it right back out again. And the quality of this so-called "advice"? Might as well be reading a pulp novel. So sad...<P>Most of you don't even realize the true value of "Plan A". Did you ever read about it? I can't believe a lot of you have and even many who have don't take it to heart. Let's review: Plan A means 1) no angry outbursts; 2) no disrespectful judgments; 3) no demands; 4) thoughtfulness; and, 5) care. There have been a couple of posts recently about the "golden rule". Gee, you don't have to be religious to see that Plan A is basically an implementation of the "golden rule". Some of those same people on the board who have been posting about the GR are the very same who have attacked HumbleFish, realitycheck and others with whom they find disagreement. The hypocrisy is striking.<P>You will never do a truly "successful" Plan A until it becomes a part of your life and is applied to <I>everyone</I> you encounter, not just your spouse. How can you convince your WS that you have changed if they are the only recipients of your supposed "transformation"? Too many people here see Plan A(or even B for that matter) as methodologies for retrieving a WS, that these plans are only for that purpose. And, again, too many "know-it-alls" here perpetuate that myth. <P>If you did a successful Plan A then you are fundamentally changed for the positive, even if the marriage did not survive. If you don't believe it, then read a few posts on the D/D board. Mitzi, medic, gina and many others there were "successful" in Plan A even though they couldn't save their marriages. No marriage should be saved "at any cost". And if the BS cannot make the basic changes required by the Harley methods and Plan A/B, then they will take all that old baggage into their "recovered" marriage or their next relationship. Wanna bet on the success they have???<P>When the tone of the board infuriates long-timers like soulloss, patient love, nyneve and lostva, it really has gone too far. These four ladies are among the kindest, gentlest souls I have ever encountered and represent the finest qualities of mankind. Even my stupidity, whining and attitude during my W's affair didn't put them off. They've taken a lot from a lot of people and they never deviated from the "kindness" path or had a "discouraging" word. That is, until now.<P>It has also become easy to see that advice is judged, not on its merits, but who it comes from. A couple of posters have gotten Tempest and MBMagnolia involved in the posts from HumbleFish and others and then "touted" their responses (much chest-thumping has been heard by these posters for "solving" the problem). Let me quote from MBMagnolia's response: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> ...but for now the "ignore user" feature is at our own fingertips...When we get a post like this, please resist the urge to reply...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>When you go back and read the "offending" posts, you will see admonitions from me and others to do just this. However, not being part of the current "in-crowd", we were met with indifference because we wouldn't join the "bashing" bandwagon.<P>I want to address the next part to the current "honcho" on the board.<P>I first apologize because some of this falls under the heading of "disrespectful judgments". I'm going to try to indicate the effect this has had on me and the reactions it evokes rather than saying you "are" these things, but I don't know that I will be successful.<P>I sometimes wonder if the first part of your pseudonym should be "blinded by" rather than "seen". In many of your posts you give the impressions of the lacks of humility, class, understanding and thoughfulness along with the abundance of arrogance, haughtiness and attitude(especially "holier-than-thou") that one associates with ex-smokers and not truly repentant ex-WSs. I believe that you do understand the pain you caused your W, but thru your postings, it appears that the true lessons that needed to be learned have not been recognized.<P>In fact, it was from your W's postings that I was able to understand your "true" story. Not any of yours. It just feels like you acknowledge what you did, but you want to too easily dismiss it because you have "moved on". A typical WS action. You speak often of "fogese" and the "mothership" as if these are and always have been, beneath you, but you have been there, done that, have the tee-shirt and the photo album. It would do more good if your comments really reflected remorse (though not to the point of wallowing) and not the "holier-than-thou" attitude.<P>You seem to want to impress us with your intelligence and "wisdom". The trouble is that true wisdom comes from the heart, not the mouth. For an example of someone with "true wisdom", go back and read the posts/replies from "Just Learning". Here is someone of great intelligence, great wisdom and warmth, a person who thinks before speaking and can pass on the harshest of lessons without attacking or appearing petty and shallow.<P>True wisdom doesn't come from quoting a dictionary, an encyclopedia or any other reference book. It comes from intelligence, common sense, care for others and a thoughtful approach. You could learn a lot from him.<P>If I refer back to your examples of "wisdom", I find "Dork", "cranial-anal insertion", "How many snorts..", "sympathy (in the dictionary between $hit and syphillis)", "aquavit-breath", and this is from just <I>one</I> post!!<P>You obviously know the "right" thing to do as evidenced by a reply of yours: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> When differences do exist, the MB spirit dictates that the dialog be approached in a spirit comity and dignity, and for the most part everyone here responds admirably to that premise. Everyone has lapses. Sometimes a good virtual smack on the head brings 'em 'round.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You would do well to follow your own advice.<P>I'm sure that I will be attacked, have my intelligence questioned, receive some kind of "witty" response or somesuch nonsense for writing this. However, from offline communications, I know that I'm not the only one who feels this way. There are seasoned, reasoned old veterans of this board who feel, in general, the way that I do and I respect their opinions and know that I'm not totally off-base here.<P>With that, I do not say "goodbye", but "until we meet again". I will occasionally lurk and maybe post when I see a situation that I might be able to help, but the bulk of my MB communication will be via e-mail. As I stated in an e-mail to a MB friend today, "I've finally realized that 1) it's not going to change anytime soon; 2) it's certainly not helping me on the recovery path; and, 3) if no one wants to listen to me, I can't help anyone". So with that said, I bid you all a temporary "good-bye" and wish you all the best in recovering your marriages and the best parts of yourselves.<P>If anyone ever feels the need to contact me, you can find my email address in the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000555.html" TARGET=_blank>Roll call index</A> in the "Just Found Out" forum.<P><BR>--DeWayne--<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited July 30, 2001).]

DeWayne:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I want to address the next part to the current "honcho" on the board.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hey, I'm not a "honcho" anymore??? <P>God bless---take a good break, and come back refreshed. Perhaps the tone will change again, for the better.<P> <BR>

HP,<BR>I'm not familiar with your posts. sorry - I just don't recall seeing you much. I would like to go and look up some - sounds like you have a lot of wisdom, love, and experience. <P>I think I understand what you are trying to say. I'm fairly new - been posting about 2 months. I hope that you can see there are many of us here that try to keep the integrity of the board. I refer new folks to the principles, and to reading a lot before expecting the forum to solve their problems for them. I also try to comfort them when they are in pain, for some people need more of a velvet glove than a 2x4. I am also new to forums in general - never been a part of one before, so I don't know the up and down cycles that I'm sure they go through. <P>I felt the Humblefish posts got out of control, but also, that it took place on a weekend, when it is slow here, and figured it turned into a game, and that noone was really getting hurt. Humblefish seems tough enough to take it - she started it, and others here can simply ignore that stuff if they want.<P>SHould we ban cell phone usage in cars? SHould we ban all smoking indoors? Rules and laws take away freedom. THis board provides lots of freedom of speech, and allows a unique setting for support and encouragement and presentation of different and varying ideas. We all know that we have the freedom to ignore certain ideas - just like we can turn the pages of the newspaper or the channels on the TV.<P>I would hope that any new people reading your post, will not assume automatically that everything has gone to he!! in a handbasket on this forum and decide to go elsewhere - nowhere??? where else is there to go??? And I hope that you will continue to read and post here, and share your wisdom and advice wherever you can.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Heartpain, your post brought me to tears, and made me think very hard about something. First, I needed to say i did the golden rule thread, because I felt an overwhelming sense of BULLYING going on in here. I did not reach the forums until I had read the books, and had a very good foot into the recovery door. I have always tried to reply with compassion and courtesy. Which I know I have. I have never slammed anyone, I did tell Realitycheck, that that onepost was uncalled for, and I did thread to the moderators about letting that go on in the room. I also know that your words, as wonderful and real as they are, were not directed towards me. Now what your post has made me wonder is this:<BR> When is it time to say goodbye to the help and leave the nest?? I know my spouse and I are into a great recovery, I have not a lot of knowledge in common with most in here, It seems overwhelming the amount of pain in here too. So When do you make the decision to bow out and get back into real life without a net??<BR> I support your thread 100% and found it very well thought out and written. I hope your life is full and your dreams come true.

DeWayne - I fess up to being guilty of some of the things you describe.<P>I will do better.<P>Dave (WAT)

Heartpain, I would be considered a new comer, I have been on MB since the beginning of May. I applaud your efforts! And I truly hope you will return. Nyneve herself has expressed these thoughts and she was and maybe still is thinking of your venture also. I do not know your story and have not read many of your posts. But I have read many of Nyneve's and some of the others you have mentioned and I do hope the board can return to some of its former status.<P><BR>For those of you who don't understand this former status, a good place to read and get many answers is in the read only posts. I have spent many hours reading in that fourm.<P>BTW I love your plan A in a nutshell and may post it when needed.

Heartpain,<P>I would like to thank you, as well. Sometimes a dose of *reality therapy* is very justified. I am not sure that any of us intentionally set out to hurt anyone, but the end result is what matters. I, too, have been guilty of some of the things you mention, and will improve myself too. Thanks... <P>Trueheart

DeWayne, I’m with you 100%<P>While no one has ever complained that I was too compassionate , I prefer the straight-out, shoot from the hip style anyway. I may have lost a few people with that style, but I’d like to think that being honest and straightforward has helped more people than I have alienated.<P>I’ve been trying to find a way to leave MB for nearly a year now; to cut the final tie to the aspect of my life of which I am least proud, but have learned the most. I don’t honestly think I can put things 100% behind me UNTIL I leave. Leave the Forums, of course... I’ll never allow myself to forget the pain I caused my W and myself. But rather to leave that pain here, so that I can focus on the knowledge gained due to the journey through that pain. To focus more on applying the principles to my life.<P>But there have been a few stories I just had to keep up with. I was doing so well, only keeping up with Chris, until WAT, AGoodGuy and Rick37 sucked me into more. A few others here and there, but I hadn’t kept up with any more in any detail. Nothing against anyone personally; I know each of us has the most important story on the board... but I just can’t get emotionally caught up in <I>everyone’s</I> life. Occasionally though, I would post to some of the threads you spoke of, where I would see droves of coddling and downright bad advice. Bad in the sense of saving marriages, of course... even if such advice would have made the recipient “feel good” at the time.<P>I am not full enough of myself to think I am some Supreme MarriageBuilders Guru (that’s K’s job <BR>), but lately I have been loathe to leave the fragile souls here in some of the hands you alluded to, DeWayne. I think they can do a lot of damage to people who are already in a very unstable place. But it’s time for me to admit that it’s really not my place to try to help save the world, or even attempt to help with a few marriages. I have enough work to do with my own... as do we all. <P>The timing on this is right... I was planning on fading away after my W and I go on a cruise for our 10th Anniversary in a few weeks. I’ve never been a big one for “goodbye” posts on any board I’ve ever frequented, and I won’t make one now. Who knows how I’ll feel at a later time? I felt having a week away from the boards would make it easier to never come back, but maybe 3 weeks before that will help even more. The board has gone through ups and downs before, but I’ve never had the taste in my mouth I do now. To the 4 gentlemen listed above, please keep me updated via email. If there’s ever anything I can do to help, from advice to a mere encouraging word, know I’ll be there.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

Hi Heartpain, I can understand where you are coming from. <P>I have received great support and advice here over the past 3 months and just put my no contact letter in the mail. Very big step for me.<P>Would have never done it, nor known the importance of it if I hadn't found some friends on this board.<P>I hope you will come back!<P>------------------<BR><B>Formerly Struggling27</B><BR>E-mail:struggling27@hotmail.com

<B>I've grown tired of the posters who won't listen to anything but what they want to hear. I feel sorry for them </B><P><B>Good advice is rare anymore. </B><P><B>And the quality of this so-called "advice"? Might as well be reading a pulp novel. So sad...</B><P><B>but lately I have been loathe to leave the fragile souls here in some of the hands you alluded to </B><P>I guess I'm a little confused... I just don't recall seeing posts from you folks. Heartpain and Whodat. I haven' done any research to look for you, but I know you haven't been around much recently or I would remember. Perhaps it is like you said, and you've been around so long, that you feel you have given all the advice you can, and can't come on to help everyone. That's fine. It's fine to reach your limit - which we all will, But don't put down the others - at least they are here for the new ones coming in and reach out a hand to try to help. If you don't like the advice they (we) give, why don't you speak up and make some replies? I've seen K around - he and I came to an understanding when I questioned him on his straightforwardness - he explained it to me and I got it and appreciated it very much. Thanks K! But the new folks don't know how or want to take the time - or HAVE the time to filter through all the old stuff to see who was once wise and who wasn't. I love this board, and I appreciate everyone who makes attempts at helping their brothers and sisters, even if the advice isn't textbook or the greatest. <P>please understand - I'm not fussing. Just trying to understand, and express my honest point of view. I haven't seen you guys around much, so how can you put down the ones that are at least trying to do some good? <P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

HP & W<P>Ya'll will be missed. Come back & check thing out in while, hopefully things will be better.<P>Thanks for all that you have given back here. I hope you are listened to here today.<P>In the time that I have been only here to check in on those I care about, I have learned not to read topics by some people & that if they start posting on a thread I try& skip their posts.<P>I wish I had ya'lls wisdom & the your recovry but even though my marriage didn't surivie I did, & I am better for it. Now to teach my boys how not to screw up like their parents did.<P><BR>Again thanks for all of your input. May your recovery grow, your happiness have no end, & you live in peace.

Faith1 (and "newbies")<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>why don't you speak up and make some replies?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Because eventually, you burn yourself out. DeWayne is suffering from that. WhoDat is an old MB collegue of mine from 1998-99 timeframe; we used to have lively debates with our old friend "D99". My story is older than the forums themselves---I was in counseling with Steve Harley in 1997, and really didn't come here until I was well into "recovery". I take sabbaticals every now and then, but I've consistantly posted here for nearly three years now.<P>We try to encourage the posts to remain focused on the task of building marriages. I'm a "by the book" MBer, mainly because I spend a gazillion dollars with Steve on learning the techniques. There are lots of other marriage tools out there (I noticed that you referred to Dobson in a previous post)---we like to encourage and use "all" of the supportive techniques we can get our hands on. Well thought out advice is always welcome. But occasionally we'll see a rash of posts in which the poster is trying to be "supportive", but in doing so is encouraging behavior contrary to the goal of restoring a marriage. It's hard to "correct" this well-intentioned but sometimes harmful advice---and hey, who appointed me as MB-guru (well, WhoDat did)---but there are times that the "old-timers" will wade in here and try to get some of the newer folks up-to-speed (so that we can hopefully retire )<P>In terms of "trolls" attacking these boards, the MB boards only have the appearance of a "public" forum. There are user guidelines for posting, and users who abuse the priviledge of posting here will eventually be banned. We had lots of problems over in the Pregnancy forum a couple months back, and it seems that we're going though another round over here. E-mailing the board moderators or the admin (Steve Harley) is what you should do if you can't simply ignore them. I hate to see well-intentioned folks "dumbing down" to fight them, however. And that's one issue that DeWayne brought up.<P>Anyway, Faith---there's a bit of background. And hey, I think you've been doing an excellent job on advice-giving. I've got my MB-cloak freshly pressed and waiting to ship to you!

Gosh, Brother, I'll bet you feel better! You guys have left even me with not much to say....Ok, I lie, but not much to say, yet! <P>I have to admit, I've had my share of frustrations here as of late. And the current interpretation of Plan A is one of the major ones. It does NOT mean doormat, or sucking up, or any other such thing and, when you finally "get it" changes your life for the better forever, dramatically INCREASES your self-respect, and makes it so much easier to take action to save your marriage rather than react to WS waffling behavior.<P>So, for now, I'll leave this thread in the capable hands of my peers, who seem to be doing a terrific job. Good to see all of you, btw.<P>love,<P>Lori

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Faith1:<BR><B>[b]<P>I love this board, and I appreciate everyone who makes attempts at helping their brothers and sisters, even if the advice isn't textbook or the greatest. <P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>a problem is that when some of the advice is not the greatest, but it is the advice followed, a marriage, lives, children, hopes and dreams of a family are compromised....<P>this is not a situation where one can easily shrug and say "oh well..guess I was wrong...opps...how about this..."<P>the ripple effects of 'off-the-cuff' remarks and advice can have disasterous effects on a marriage.....<P><BR>also, the serach function here is abit...umm...strange...it will only display 200 matches, and I have found quite often even in searches for my own stuff, that only my 1999 contributions are listed...or a few into 2000...<P>I get better results with a search using keywords...but since I am the person who wrote them, I would know which specific ones to use...to make a long story short...lol...<P>a search can often produce a result that makes it look like we haven't posted in a long while....<P>don't know how to help with that though...<P>good thoughts...<P>Dylan<P><P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

DeWayne......<P>I could have run in here, guns blazing, cites and quotes at the ready....but my friend...you have, with your eloquence, caring and class, have said much of it...and oh so much more calmly and rationally than I would have.....<P>I haven't much time right now....but I will return this evening to address this...<P>my friend....all the best to you...<P>Dylan

DeWayne,<P>You will be missed. I do agree with you. But there are many here that do read and do offer very good advice. It just seems that with the larger number of posters there is a tendency to give a hurried response rather than a well considered response. I am as guilty as the next I am afraid.<P>I do hope you return, but I do know how you feel. I am feeling abit like you do as well. It may be time for a sabbatical for me as well.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

K, thank you for your thoughtful reply. <P>I guess I really understand the fact that some folks that have been around for a while just get a little burned out. I'm sure I will too. Like I said, I'm new to forums and such. The reason I'm sharing my view is that I would LOVE for veterans to hang around as long as possible and give us a good shot in the arm from time to time. I would LOVE for all the folks - especially the ones who are in recovery, but even the ones who are not - lead us through this minefield in any way they feel their strength and love can allow. They have walked through the minefield, lost a few limbs, and seen others make it, lose limbs, turn back, or even suffer an MB death. If they quit posting to the newbies, and toddlers (such as myself), the torch doesn't pass along in the best way. So by the time the torch passes down a few generations, the information is garbled and the priciples become faded... which appears to be where we are now... sort of like the gossip game where you whisper something and pass it around and by the time it gets to the end of the line, it's changed completely! This is fine, if you are ready to move on with life - you can't help everyone across the minefield. <P>So, as I tried to say in my first reply above, I appreciate Heartpain's wake up call to some of us - to grow up, and to remember the MB principles that founded this board. But also in an attempt to defend of some of the folks that try to help, and then also in welcoming and encouraging HP and the other veterans - um, er, "Practicing MB'ers" - to come back and post whenever they have the energy, strength, and love to share.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith1<P>"Then Jesus answered, 'Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.'"<BR>Matt 15:28

Well said HeartPain. <P>Once again I am in your debt for holding a mirror in front of me as you have in the past.<P>Thank You.

...well...<P>sigh.<P>I agree.<P>While gone last week, I didn't get to be on much... looked for a few whom I know and check up on, but stayed away from newbies since I had my welcome letter on the 'puter at home and didn't have time to go find all the links to create another one.<P>Know what? It felt good to just check in, say hi to a few, and get off the darned computer.<P>I am an oldie, been here since Aug 99, and MB saved my life -- not my marriage, but my life. <P>I use the concepts in my present marriage, and God willing, it will last the rest of my life.<P>DeWayne, soulloss, Lostva, JL, K, WhoDat... old friends... here for years... I have learned so much from each of you, and sing, SuzzieQ... new friends... who continue to teach me.<P>Thank you... and for once I won't write a goodbye message, because if I went and collected all the times I said goodbye and came back, well... it would be embarrassing <P>Love to all<P>Sheryl<P>**maybe time for a real "new_beginning" ~ I think I finally fit into the name**<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>...well...<P>sigh.<P>I agree.<P>DeWayne, soulloss, Lostva, JL, K, WhoDat... old friends... here for years... I have learned so much from each of you, and sing, SuzzieQ... new friends... who continue to teach me.<P>Thank you... and for once I won't write a goodbye message, because if I went and collected all the times I said goodbye and came back, well... it would be embarrassing <P>Love to all<P>Sheryl<P>**maybe time for a real "new_beginning" ~ I think I finally fit into the name**<P>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 30, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don't you dare leave here well, at least without not giving me your email. You help me get through to many long lonely nights in Sing,