I was wrong. Husband came home about 8:00 last night. He's still sleeping so I have to type fast! I thought it was youngest daughter coming through the door so I called out her name and headed for the door only to see H walking in. I was shocked to say the least.<P>I simply said, " I'm sorry I was being stuborn and wouldn't talk to you." He said, "It's ok, but why did you do that?"<P>I figure this would be my openning for a good heart to heart about all that I know. <P>I asked him if we could talk and he immeadiately said he had a screamimg headache and had no desire to talk. This is what he always does. He just keeps avoiding talking about anything to do with what is actually going on, hoping I'll just forget about it all, I guess.<P>So I decided to keep it simple and let his own lies force him to explain.<P>I asked if he was ok, if I could get him anything, etc (I guess I've been on plan A for so long it's just second nature for me at this point). Then I asked where he had been, seeing that he didn't even tell me he was leaving. He then told me he had gone to the bussiness, to this clients house, that clients house, and then to pick up a sandwich. I just looked him in the eye and asked how that could have been accomplished at OWs place ( I gave the addy so he would know I knew). He said he hadn't been there. I told him I KNOW he was because I saw his car there. He flat out denied he was there, he lied to my face even when I started pushing the issue. <P>I then said that when he returned this last time our lives were wonderful, and he agreed. That it was when OW returned to the picture that he became more and more distant to me and I began shutting down emotionally. Like I was subconciuosly preparing for him to leave yet again. He told me he is never leaving me again. I told him I do love him but there is no way I can meet his needs when I know he is still involved with her and that I just don't understand how he can say he isn't involved with her when he spends 90% of his waking hours with her or talking to her. He said he knows I love him and that he IS geting her out of his life in his way at his pace and that is what is pissing me off, in his oppinion, it's that it isn't being done my way at my pace. He also says he talks more to her than me because I don't undersatnd the bussiness. Of course I don't believe a word of it.<P>I told him that things can't continue on the way they are. That I live daily not knowing if he will return and that his heart is not all here. He said but he is here and if he didn't want to be here he wouldn't be here. I asked him why he is here. And he said because he loves me. I asked if he is sure it isn't because of his deisre to be here for the kids and he said it wasn't.<P>The most interesting thing that was said is when I told him I wanted to get this all resolved so our marriage and our home could be his *safe* place of comfort away from all the crap in daily life, he told me he has no safe place. I then told him if we go this all talked out then he *would* have a safe place. I am wondering if when he went to OW's if she didn't open her arms to him and stroke his head with the, *oh poor baby that evil wife has hurt you yet again* crapola. Maybe she is getting just as fed up with his double life as I am?<P>At this point he started talking about a tightness in his chest and then started talking about the movie that was on TV. I figured I'd better drop it for now as he was clearly letting me know he would no longer talk about any of it.<P>He had me order some dinner for the two of us and was nice and concenred about me the remainder of the night. However nothing got accomplished. He's still lying and I'm still hurting.<P>This morning when I got up he had nylons and a garter belt laid out on my dresser (H is into this stuff, as if sex would be happening tonight). So somehow he got the impression, and I know I didn't give this impression to him, that everything is now hunky dorey. <P>I think it is very arrrogant of him to assume the lies and avoidance of the issues at hand are now resolved. Well the way I see it is they are resolved in his mind because he just refused to discuss and lied about what I confronted him with. So now he thinks we'll just go back to the staus quo he has been comfortable with him having his cake and eating it to. I doubt he'll be none to happy as the day progesses and he comes to find his assumptions were very wrong and things aren't going back to the way they were. Of course I know what hill happen. He'll accuse me of not acting myself, trying to force him to talk about something when he doesn't feel up to talking about (surely he'll tell me his head hurts, his chest is tight, or some other fictictious malady to avoid getting this all out in the open as this has been his SOP all along), and then tell me how I ruined his day off. <P>Well, not this time. I'll be nice, even sweet. But in order to get past this crap it has to be ironed out. I'll continue to try and get him to converse about it, but I won't push too hard. But I will let him know until we get it all resolved my emotions can not be magically reinstated. <P>He is unbeleivable. He can sit there and lie to me one minute and then profess his love and say he'll never leave again. This is nothing short of mental abuse as I see it.<P>So here I am over 14 years (yes, 10 before D day and over 4 since D day) into this whole mess and still totally clueless as to how to get it all resolved. Don't get me wrong I know how to plan A I could slide back into that mode and hope he gets out of the fog, but I HAVE been doing that for over 4 years. Yeah it got him back home. But the problem is not all of him came back and the parts that aren't here with me are with OW and I just refuse to live like this any more.<P>I'm just so confused. If I PUSH the issues then he gets pushed right into her comforting arms. If I don't then I end up just continueing to put up with his adultery. Talk about feeling like I'm in a corner with no way out! I truely are damned if I do and damned if I don't.<P>If anyone has some creative ideas on how to get H to address this stuff PLEASE post them! I'll be checking back as I can, as in when he isn't in the postition to see me on the puter.<P>Thanks for listening and any suggestions.<P>FC<P> <P>

Wow, fingers crossed, I really feel for you. <P>I dont know what to say except from the outside it looks to me like it is up to you to deciede for yourself what you can live with and what you cannot. Left to his own devices your H will continue to have you both. It looks like at this point he needs both of you to maintain his needs. He will say whatever to both of you to keep the status quo.<P>Please dont keep doing what you are doing and expect anything to change. You have done enough plan A. He knows your good points, I do beleive at this time plan A just allows him to continue. Plan A was never meant for long term, it is meant to be followd by plan B if they do not seperate from OP. But you have to be ready for that too.<P>It goes back to you cannot make your H adress his stuff, he has to want to, and he will only do it when it is too uncomfortable for him not to. Please take care of you. Deciede what you want. You can not change him, you have to make decisions based on you. If your H is not willing to change, what do you want for yourself?<BR>Lora

Dear FC,<P>first of all I must say I admire your patience! You are a strong woman and your H is blessed to be married to you!<P>I do not know the details of your story, other than said on this post. Disregard my advices if they are of no use. <P>Have you tried counseling? In my case mine refused to go so I went on my own to start with. I claimed that I wanted to do what I could to help our relationship and I wanted to change for the better but I needed help. I also said I went for my own sanity. Of course I hoped he would join eventually. It worked and we are now in counseling together.<P>Have you read the books? After the affair (Janis C?), SSA (Harleys), Getting the love you want (Harville Hendrix), Torn Asunder (Dave Carder)? Maybe even consider some pure negotiation technique book.<P>Your H seems to be getting out of fog very slowly and there's only one word to manage this - patience. I really am sorry for you, as it is obvious you struggle so hard! You deserve better and more. However, this is obviously going in the right direction, just slowly. <P>Maybe others can give you better advices.<P>You're a very strong woman!<BR>-she-<P><BR>

FC,<P>I pray that you consider Lora's excellent advice, that the time has passed for an effective Plan A, and get yourself an attorney to start protecting yourself and your children. Your husband has demonstrated that he has no plans to change, and frankly, he has no motivation to change. My definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results. I wish you the best and really hope that you will heed some of the objective opinions that you are getting here. It's time to start protecting *YOU*

Here's some advice from another oldtimer who will be divorced this month (hopefully).<P>There are only two paths you can go at this point. You can continue to be nice to him and accept his current behavior, as you have done. If you do this, the life you have will continue as-is. Take that prediction to the bank. It's been proven based on the past 14 years. He will keep you both as long as you both will have him. Odds are, if the OW backs out first, he'll find another. If he ends up with the OW, he'll probably cheat on her too (possibly with you).<P>The second choice you have is to cut him off NOW. I wouldn't bother with Plan B at this point, he'll still be back and he'll break through your defenses, then you're in the same spot. He's not in a fog, he's lacking character and strength. Waiting out the affair isn't going to build up his character - the affair isn't really the issue. The way to cut him off is to divorce him. None of us can predict what your life will be like after divorce, but it will not be the same as it is now. Most likely it will be better, but it's possible it could be worse, especially initially.<P>So that's your choice. Continue to accept an ongoing, weak-willed infidel as your husband and allow him to cheat forever without consequence, or divorce him and take your chance on an uncertain future. I know which one I would take.<P>I'm so sorry for your situation. I think the data you provided eliminates any other interpretation except that the man lacks character. What you're fighting here may be less an issue about love for him, but more about your self-perception about being so wrong (and others knowing it) and dealing with the financial consequences of divorce. That's so hard to deal with, but acceptance is the first necessary step towards healing. In that regard, I'm happy for you because you seem to be coming to grips with the reality of your situation for the first time. That is progress and marks the beginning of the end. <P>God bless you.bbbbbbb

OK, you know what my evil side says? I would think about going and having it out with OW. Have some solid eveidence of his promises to never leave you and find out what he is telling her. I would bet that she hears a very diferent story about how he is only with you for the kids.<P>Maybe it would not do anything, but it sure would feel good to break down his little game of telling her one thing and you another.<P>Please dont think this is real advice, mostly just me venting my frustation for you.<BR>Lora

Distressed said,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So that's your choice. Continue to accept an ongoing, weak-willed infidel as your husband and allow him to cheat forever without consequence, or divorce him and take your chance on an uncertain future. I know which one I would take.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If those were the only two choices, I know which one I would take also, and it wouldn't be the same choice that Distressed would choose. Not that I had a choice, but I have discovered that the "uncertain future" is far worse than I could ever have imagined in my worse nightmares, emotionally and financially.<P>There are rarely only two choices - I am positive that given enough time and creativity, you and people here could come up with a dozen more. <P>If he is hiding money from the IRS and the OW is assisting in this, then they are literally partners in crime. It seems to me that there ought to be some way that this info could come in handy in this battle...<P>

I hesitate to mention, but in response to Nellie, there is a third category of approaches you can take, although it's hard to recommend and certainly defies Harley's strategies. You could make a "marital arrangement", essentially find an acccommodation that would allow you to live with your husband's ongoing cheating within the marriage. Examples could include having affairs of your own (an open marriage), burying yourself in self-development or hobbies, developing close friendships and investing all your emotional energy there, over-attaching to the children so they can become the primary avenue to meet your emotional needs, or countless other approaches that would allow you to keep your husband for financial and parenting aspects yet still get your other emotional needs met. Obviously, I don't think this is a good idea either. You deserve more.<P>The financial issue is not trivial and needs to be fully thought through before you take any action. It is possible that you could be far worse off financially and you need to be strategic in how you approach this aspect. But I don't concur with Nellie at all that you will suffer emotionally from divorce forever. The vast majority of people eventually recover from divorce, the death of a spouse, and many other catastrophies and go on to lead happy and healthy lives.

FingersCrossed<BR>I think Distressed has a point but I wouldn't go that extreme. I agree that he will continue on with both of you as long as you will both have him.<BR>You have a choice to go to plan B as well. If you moved out of town (far away), he would have to decide between the 2 of you. You would have to be prepared for the worst but hope for the best.If it was me (and that may happen) I would move away and begin a new life without him. If he decides to come along with you, make sure he knows what is required of him first.<BR>As Dr. Phil says, "The best indicator of the future is the past."

I have seen adults suffer emotionally from divorce permanently - and the vast majority of children are permanently harmed from the fall-out.<P>Divorce certainly is no guarantee that your emotional needs are suddenly, or even eventually, going to be met. Often it means just the opposite.<P>FC, I assume the OW knows that you plan to move far away if your H were to leave again. Isn't that what she is hoping for, that she can out-wait you? Would her reactions be different if she knew that you would never give up?<P>It seems to me that it is quite possible that the OW has threatened to turn your H in to the IRS if he ditches her. <P>

I know that some A's continue because they are a triangle that will only work as a triangle. That is why I would get out of it if it were me. <P>I read just today (Frank Pittman, Private Lies) that it is often not until the D that the WS feel the impact of what they have done. I think that plan B is simulating a D without actually doing it. Most WS's will try to resolve the M if it comes to this, no guarantees, of course.<P>

Dear Fingers Crossed,<P>I agree with Distressed that your H lacks character. He might be a born liar, conflict-avoidance liar, or a protector liar (Harley's descriptions in HNHN), but I don't think you'll ever have any luck getting him to confront the truth. He needs for God to give him a change of heart! He doesn't act like he knows truth if it bit him in the butt, it seems. And his lack of facing truth is not about you, either! It's something inside himself. He probably lies to himself about his reality and he's so confused that he can't sit with you. He seems to be very out of touch with himself.<P>Your role seems to be one of the enabler. He keeps hurting you because you are allowing him to get away with his lies. Does that make sense? Maybe he feels it's okay to lie because you will believe him--he can convince you--which makes him feel okay about himself. <P>He is extremely emotionally abusive toward you but you enable him to be emotionally abusive to you because you tolerate his abuse. If you don't put your foot down, you allow it by ignoring it and maybe hoping it will get better or go away or one day he'll do the right thing, prove your critics wrong...<P>You will continue giving him as many chances as you believe possible. You will let him do this to you until you are finally fed up and when you do decide to walk away, you still might even find it difficult to cut the strings. You have yourself convinced that you love him. You refuse to believe that he could possibly be treating you this way. He says he loves you, but does he even know what love is? If he loved himself, I'm sure he would treat you better. <P>But think of your daughters. What are you teaching them about relationships through your actions?<P>Your circle of friends meant well, but they were telling you to give up based on what they would or would not tolerate. To me, it seems that they might be glad for you if you put your foot down. They may not be sympathetic but MBers are. Consider yourself hugged.<P>You gave him way more chances than many would. That is to your credit. I think your daughters will understand and actually admire you for being strong enough to take care of yourself.

Thank you EVERYONE! <P>It seems that the overall majority see this as a never ending ordeal, despite the Harley method being effective in other's situations, just as I do. That is why I have said plan B won't cut it. All that will happen is he'd cut it off with OW long enough to convince me it was over then start back up with her as soon as he felt it was safe to.<P>I tried again last night to discuss things but again *he* wouldn't talk about it. He had a headache (as predicted) and said he had a couple of other things on his mind that took presidence and we'd talk tommorrow, but I already know tommorrow (as in now today Tues) will never come. It will be a headache, a rotten day or any other excuse including getting home late (I predict that is what he will do) and be too tired to discuss anything and turn my attempts to talk into my being uncaring and selfish and only thinking about myself. When I told him that we never end up talking about the real issues and that things will never get better unless we work out all the issues he turned angry. He didn't yell or anything he just got this stern distant look on his face and rolled over and went to sleep. <P>Everything everyone who responded to this and my original post said had a ring of truth to it. But I have to admitt BinthereDunthat really pulled it all together in one respsonse.<P>As for his lying, yes he has been all of the types of liars you mentioned for many years, way before his affair ever started. The thing that is amazing is that his entire family is like he is, to one degree or another. When I was in counseling the counselor told me they as a family have an interesting out look on these lies. They have actually built up their own value system and it certainly isn't one that the rest of society lives by. If they want something or do something they justify it regardless of how wrong it is. They also have this unique ability to discount everyone elses, other than their own, feelings and emotions. <P>I think I'll take a ride by OWs this morning and snap a picture of his car in her drive (I'm pretty sure he is there right now), and if he isn't I'll wait until I can get the proof as another (pardon me not remembering who gave me that excellent suggestion) poster suggested. I guess without the proof right in his face he won't admitt to it and still may not even when looking at the picture. BUT for some reason it is VERY important to me for him to fess up. Maybe I want him to finally face what he is doing and how he is hurting me. You see as long as he feels he is convincing me he is doing no wrong, then he is doing no wrong in his own mind and not hurting me. I find this all rather odd, in light of what he has said in the recent past about his nephew and cousin that have both had affairs and left their wives for the OW. He has called them fools, jerks, human garbage, etc. even though he has left me twice already, I think he feels since he did come back and he is still here he is vindicated in some odd way. When he looks in the mirror he must see himself very different from the people that have done just what he has done. Or at least I think he does. I just can't imagine anyone looking in a mirror and seeing the truth about what they are, when they do these things, and continue to do them or even want to live knowing what kind of person they are. That BTW does scare me a bit too. I do think he has the capacity to take his own life if he feels so backed into a corner that he can't get out. <P>As for the kids... In the beginning I thought I was teaching them to fight for your marriage and family. That they would learn women can be strong and truth and honesty and commitment will win out in the end. But now it seems they are in fact learning that their mother is a fool. One that will continue to take the abuse of a husband that is a liar and cheat, and that is not what I want them to emulate in their own lives. I know they both resent their father and get very angry at me when I put him before them. They tell me he doesn't deserve me or the nice things I do for him. In anger they have said things like, " Go to your hubby. " and "why don't you just go screw your cheating husband." Yet they do get excited and seem happy to see him when he gets home at night. So they are confusing me too! I guess I need to have a heart to heart with both of them. You see THEY are the most important things in my life, more important than myself even. If the children want me to stick it out with him then I will. Perhaps somewhere along the line my children have become the ones that meet my ENs in place of my husband that stopped doing so many years ago. I know it sounds odd to let my kids make this type of decision for my life BUT they will be just as affected as I will be if this marriage ends.I think this entire thing is getting me to see things I have ignored or failed to see all along.<P>I also have the option that I believe Distressed mentioned. That being ignore and wrap myself up in other things and let him go on with his dual life. It would save me financial ruin but would probably eventually cause me to unravel emotionally, and send me into either a depression or an emotional state that would be my demise, hopefully after the kids are totally grown and on their own. But I do have another idea.......<P>What if I just started being VERY bold in my actions. No accusing but became ever present at his work? I just show up and start becoming an active part of the bussiness at unpredictable times. Seeing it is his hours to and from work and at work that he has contact with her, he would be in a postion that he never knew if or when it would be safe to see her outside of work. (BTW I did try the making him call me when he got to work and when he left work to assure me he was not making any stops to see her but that didn't last but a day or two and he'd either call before or after never both.) This would also send a clear message to her at work while I would refer to him as Hon, dear, etc. that we are in fact very married and that any lies (and I'm sure he's lying to her as much as he is to me) that he is telling her like he is only sticking around for the kids sake would be hard for him to talk his way out of. I have tried talking to him about me coming to the bussiness to help out before and he has always told me there is nothing there for me to help with. But what if I stopped asking and just showed up, ready to do anything to help? Keeping in mind he keeps telling me how bad bussiness is and how could free unpaid additional labor be a detriment? What do you all think about this approach?<P>I don't know. Maybe this would just be putting off the enevitable. Maybe I've worked so hard to keep my marriage and family intact that I just don't want to let go. As I said before I am very confused. <P>One thing I should tell you all is I do NOT want to be and will NOT be the one to end this marriage. I am very firm in this conviction. I do NOT want to give my kids the opportunity to EVER accuse me of being the one to break up their family. And believe you me their father would certainly end up putting the blame on me if I tell him to leave. He'd just swear to the kids that he was not seeing the OW and it was my wild imagination and he wanted to keep our family together and I was the one that pushed him to OW and ruined it for everyone. He can be very convincing and as their father I'm sure they have to have some sort of alliance to him. So maybe that's another reason why I feel it is so important to push him into making a choice as oppossed to me being the one to do so.<P>I have to go out for awhile and will probably take my camera with me, wink wink, ( I take care of my mom who lives 30 minutes away and she needs to run some errands and doesn't drive and my dad passed away a couple of years ago), but am so VERY eager to hear what everyone has to say. <P>Again I can never express just how much you all mean to me for helping me in this most difficult time in my life.<P>Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.<P>FC<P>