I am currently separated from my husband. He posted here Friday afternoon. See I Can't do this anymore by Empty Shell.<p>I called him Friday night after I got to my mother's house to let him know that our D was okay. He got to talk to her as well. I told him that he could call and talk to D anytime he wanted. He hasn't even attempted to call our D since Friday night.<p>What I don't understand is this. If he were scared that I was trying to turn our D against or that my family was trying to turn our D against him, why hasn't he called everyday this weekend to talk to her? To let her know that he loves her and see if she is doing well? I know that if he had taken her away from me, told me where he was and the phone number and said it was okay for me to call her then I would be calling her everyday to talk to her. To let her know that I loved her.<p>It makes no sense to me that he hasn't called. Can anyone shed any light on why he wouldn't call to talk to his D.

No one has any ideas or comments????????

Hopeful,<p>I cannot speak for your husband, but this quote from his most recent thread probably explains a great deal. He said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I got home and for the second time in two weeks, found all of my daughters clothes, all of my W clothes, and
most of my daughters movies missing. This time my W also took several of the pictures off the wall as well, but to be honest with you, right now I am not sure what was taken.<p>I tried calling my MIL again, this time I was told that they knew nothing about my W. I asked to talk to my MIL and was told that she was at work. I asked for my MIL work number and the phone was put down, then a minute or so later was told that they couldn't find the number.<p>I CAN NOT DO THIS AGAIN. The last time this happened, a restraining order was filed against me, accusing me of threatening my W, my daughter and all of their friends. I went to court, and was told that if I did not do exactly what "they" wanted, that I would never see my daughter or my W again. I was branded an abuser, and given 4hours a week visitation . . . .65 miles away from my home.<p>It's all happening again. . . .I can't do this.<p>My W won't even try to work on the marriage.<p>My daughter did not even want to talk to me on the phone a little while ago . . . all she kept saying was that I made her stand in the corner. . . .several months ago.<p>The lawyers that I talked with before will do nothing without money up front. . . . Money that I don't have. I have no collateral to qualify for a loan, my family does not have the money to be able to loan to me. . . . . I am so screwed again, it is pathetic. My marriage is obviously over. . . my W won't even try to talk about the marriage.
She has taken my daughter again.<p>Why even bother. . . . .I have no way to defend myself. I lose again. <hr></blockquote><p>Hopeful, have you ever felt hopeless and powerless in a situation. Then I think you might have some idea how ES is feeling when posting this. <p>Further, you have stated that you and MIL will not bad mouth ES, but it is clear your MIL and your family has not been very helpful in allowing him to contact you or your children.<p>Got any idea how it would feel to be rejected and abandoned by your Spouse and then have your child not want to talk with you? It seems to me your abruptly leaving ES has in fact done just as you wanted it to. It has made your child think there is something wrong with him.<p>Quite frankly I don't understand why you just leave with no warning instead of sitting down and talking with ES before making these decisions on your own.<p>I am not going to bad mouth you, but it seems to me you question is just a diversion from the reality of what has happened to your family. ANd what you have allowed YOUR family to do to you and your H. <p>I remember very well your posts about your controlling mother and how you allowed her to talk you into a separation. I also remember about your affair (s?). <p>I know this you actions speak louder than words and you actions have been very negative toward your H and clearly have a profound affect on your D. The proper way to have done this is before you left, that you and your H talk with your D about what was happening. Where she fit into all of this. THat both of you loved her.<p>Instead, you stole away like a theif in the night. I doubt very seriously your promise the your family will not bad mouth ES, because of your description of your mother, years ago when you two first came to this board.<p>I would like to encourage you to meet with ES and have D there, so that both of you can tell her how you feel about her. This relationship is between you and ES, but your D is paying a very high price. A price that could be greatly reduced by facing up to the choices you are making and allowing D to have the ability to understand ES's point of view.<p>Finally, if you are so worried about D not hearing from ES, why haven't you had her call him and talk with him???? That way ES doesn't have to go through the less than helpful members of your family.<p>YOU have a responsibility to keep her in contact with her father my dear. You yanked her away from him.<p>I truely hope that you and ES finally get this worked out. But, yanking kids away from another spouse without telling that spouse is pretty darn low in my opinion and should only be done in the most serious of circumstances.<p>Please think about what I have said.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

hopeful1771,
Not to defend ES but I will do the same to just clear up my head and picking up pieces. From the other posts, he talked to D and ...
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>My daughter did not even want to talk to me on the phone a little while ago . . . all she kept saying was that I made her stand in the corner. . . .several months ago.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Do you know why D did that ?. Is ES such a bad H that this is happenning ?. What is the other side of the story ?. Could you help us to understand ?.<p>[ November 26, 2001: Message edited by: redhat ]</p>

I don't know how much of this will make sense but I thought I would at least post it.<p>Yes I am jealous of this one friend of ES. She calls him everyday sometimes two and three times a day. They are always talking online when the are both online at the same time. She has even called him at work when something bad has happened with her husband. ES says that they are only friends and that they have a lot in common, ie. both myself and her husband have had an affair. ES says she calls to get advice or just vent. But she usually vents only to him or only asks for his advice. She says I make her feel uncomfortable but I truly feel uncomfortable because she is constantly calling my husband.<p>I can understand needing advice but I also feel that she should either find someone of the same sex to talk to or talk to both of us at the same time. I truly feel that she calls him and that she doesn't seem to care how I feel about her calling all the time. I feel that he is more concerned about her and her problems than he is about me at all. I don't feel comfortable with her calling so much but if I were to say anything about it, I'm accused of having jealous feelings or that its just my insecurities. How am I suppose to feel when he seems to be more interesting in letting her vent or asking for advice? If feels like she is more important than I am. ES has even allowed her to call us whenever she needs to, including at 3 or 3 in the morning.<p>I feel that I am second best in my husband's life. That she is more important and that their friendship is more important. I didn't talk to ES about it because I didn't want to be accused again of just being jealous and insecure and that they are just friends. I feel she just tried to befriend me so that she could always ask my husband for advice or just vent with him.<p>I don't like the feeling of being second best. I also have the feeling that everything is my fault because I do have feelings of insecurities and jealousy. That is the biggest reason why I left. I feel that I deserve better than second best. <p>ES shouldn't have to worry about his wife being jealous of his friends and he should be allowed to jump when his friends call and need advice. I feel that if he is still married to me then he isn't getting the best he deserves. He needs someone who isn't going to be jealous of his "friends" I'm obviously not the wife he deserves. I have a hard time changing or I'm not doing it fast enough for him. He should be able to move on with his life and be happy

So you take your daughter away from her father because you feel like second best and he should be able to do what he wants?????
I really have trouble swallowing that. You don't tear apart a family for something like that. You WORK on it.<p>And I think ES has plenty of work to do. Even if you were the WS and he was the BS -- he has no right to a same-sex friendship that makes you uncomfortable. <p>I think JL was stern, but ABSOLUTELY correct in what she said to you. You may not verbally be trashing your H, but the unspoken message that you must run away from your H is horribly damaging.<p>I recall also the stories about your mother. This is not someone that will work in the best interests of your marriage. And ES is justified in feeling threatened and afraid of this situation.<p>Unless you felt in physical danger -- you reacted in a childish immature manner by running away.<p>Act like a grown MARRIED woman and work things out WITH your H. Separating is a decision you should reach MUTUALLY, not on your own.

Dear Hopeful,<p>I am glad you are still posting. If I recall ES is a helpful soul, you both agree on that point. Yes? <p>Ok, my H is helpful also (he is the WS and rewired OWs house before he left her). Some guys are just like that. I let my H know that I find that very offensive and that I am sure the OW will be able to find some other person in this 'great area' to do things for her (with or without sex in exchange for a bill). <p>Now ES does not sound like he is in as bad a situation. As a W you should be able to gently let him see that. If you are having problems in this area then a session with Steve or Jennifer or even here may be helpful. <p>Taking your child away is not a good idea on strengthening a relationship. Listen hon, I wanted to take my child away also when I got upset with my H. I am having depressive bouts right now and posting here helps me regain my santity. Taking my child away is the cowardly way out. Any negative MIL interferance will not help either spouse. <p>Step back, let ES know how much you are willing to work on the marriage, show him where your needs and boundaries are. Let him show you his. Where they over lap is good, where they are in 2 different directions is where the bridges need to be made. A tugging by 2 sides may be what it takes until you are united as one again. <p>ES, this is for you also. The pain you 2 are giving each other is very clear here and we feel for both of you. Does the LB fairie need to visit both of you? Hope not but she is not far away...... (loving joke ok?). <p>Let us hear your thoughts. <p>L.

ES, <p> LOSE THE FRIENDSHIP WITH THIS OW. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. There is no way you can justify having a female friend outside of your marriage if your wife is uncomfortable with it.<p> I can't believe that you would do such a thing. Not if you want to be married I can't. <p> Hell, if hopeful is telling the truth in this, I don't blame her for leaving you. Maybe she went about it the wrong way.....but you asked for it by continuing to have a relationship with OW when you knew it upset your W.<p> Do you want to be married? Or, do you want to have female friends that your W isn't a part of?<p> Lose that friendship NOW. Then go save your marriage and be a father to that little girl.<p> jd

Both ES and Hopeful - go read POJA, and test yourselves - see IF you are following it! <p>No wonder the conflict has escalated to this point! <p>Also.... Spouse defines a lovebuster! So, ES & Hopeful messed up!<p>1) ES committed a lovebuster by ignoring hopeful and maintaining this friendship that left her feeling unprotected.<p>2) Hopeful committed a lovebuster by leaving twice, in a month - and allowed their daughter to stay with MIL. <p>Okay, so you are both wrong. You both don't feel wrong - because:<p>1) ES needs to feel needed, and has a friend that in his opinion "does not have anything to do with his marriage"..... He thought he has employed safety measures so that Hopeful would feel less jealous - but he could continue the friendship: Allows Hopeful to listen to his conversations with his friend.... In my book, HUGE lovebuster to be friends with another female who is extremely vulnerable. He should refer her to the site - and explain "it is not POJA to befriend her, no offense." What kind of counsel is he giving this woman? How to plan A, but ignore POJA & Lovebusters? Hmmmm.... that doesn't fit.<p>2) Hopeful doesn't feel wrong because she loves her mother.... What is so wrong with that? Nothing is wrong with that, however, there is a history here - that definitely does not leave ES feeling protected. I agree with JL.<p>
Hopeful and ES,
This is a bump in the road. Big bump. But this could be turned around if you both decide that you want to have a happy marriage. It is still possible.<p>TnT

. . .<p>[ November 27, 2001: Message edited by: Empty Shell ]</p>

ES....
I am NOT accusing you of having an affair. But I am accusing you of a lovebuster. Your spouse, not you, defines what is a lovebuster. Remember plan A 101?<p>Maybe hopeful is right - that SHE did have no other alternative, but to leave. You just don't get it! If having a relationship with this vulnerable BS - is MORE IMPORTANT than your marriage, what other alternative did you give hopeful? <p>I KNOW that this outside relationship is not more precious to you than your family. I KNOW that, but you are being prideful, ES. I KNOW that hopeful loves her husband, and feels desperately unloved by you. She probably feels just like you did when you were the BS. It feels HORRIBLE, remember?<p>AGAIN.... I am not accusing you of an affair, but I am accusing you of a major lovebuster. And, not following POJA.<p>ES, I know you are angry with anyone who does not see things the way that you see them, but that doesn't mean that the way you see them is the only way. <p>Someone has to budge here, if this marriage is going to work. Why can't it be you? I think if you affirmed that you are capable of understanding how hopeful feels, and make the appropriate changes that need to be made so your wife feels protected, and not associate with your BS friend except on terms that are a Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA), I think this could be workable - you could have your daughter and your wife. Isn't that what you want? I think it is.<p>It isn't about who is right, or who is wrong - it is about spending the energy on our marriages instead of trying to get our own way.<p>ES, you are a reasonable man. I know she has hurt you deeply by leaving you. But how is she going to get you to understand the depths of her feelings? In her book, her feelings didn't matter. She felt she had no other alternative but to leave. Made things WAY WORSE, for sure! But it is not unresolvable. This can work out, ES. What do you have to lose? <p>To me, I see that you have way more to lose by demanding your own way - than you have to lose by simply trying to POJA and stop the lovebusting. <p>You know I care, or I wouldn't come out of lurkdom to poste to you, this marriage is worth saving.<p>ES - you seem soooo angry. I understand. But anger is a coverup for your pain. But the solution to all of this is so much simpler than the fight.<p>Why not try and resolve these differences with hopeful? She loves you. She always will. <p>TnT

I've cleared all of my recent posts.<p>It's time . . .

I think I can honestly say this from what ES has said and done. I do believe that our marriage is over and that at the rate we both are going it isn't going to be salavable. I believe that we both want our own way and neither of seems to be giving in towards the other's point of view. Maybe its for the best maybe not. Just don't know what else to do here.

Hopeful - I don't think because of this bump in the road that your marriage is over.<p>I think you should try and find an alternative to staying at your mothers, that would be a start. Show ES that you will protect his feelings. Do everything that you can to make sure ES is comfortable about his relationship with his daughter. Maybe arrange to bring daughter a few evenings to ES - or at least meet him half-way. <p>Hang in there. Your marriage is in my prayers.
TnT

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think I can honestly say this from what ES has said and done. I do believe that our marriage is over and that at the rate we both are going it isn't going to be salavable.<hr></blockquote><p>From what I have said and done. . . . . . ?<p>obviously my staying at home and trying to start a conversation that might be possible of saving a family was the wrong thing to do. . . at the expense of my daughters love to boot. . . <p>I guess I understand now.<p>The only way to work on a trouble marriage, the only way to be with my daughter is to give up my life, my beliefs and my ambitions, in favor of doing exactly what my W wants. . . <p>I always thought it was a two way street. . .

What you have said and done here is what I meant. Why erase all your posts? You told me last Wednesday that everyone here would support you and bash me. But people here are supporting both of us and bashing both of us. I didn't go erase all my posts because I didn't like what someone said to me. Why did you?

As an observer so far, I have seen some bashing of both of you, but mostly lots of support. We all want you two to try and put your marriage back together.<p>Both of you seem to want to fix your marriage!!!<p>This is a classic case of MB principles at work. From what's been said so far I don't see any evidence of active affairs. You both seem to want to be married, but there is so much misunderstanding on both sides that you can't seem to get past.<p>This is exactly where Steve and Jennifer can help. Please, please, please, one (or both) of you give them a call.<p>Respectfully,<p>Jeffers

I feel sorry for the child because she/he has parents that are acting like spoiled little children. One has an inappropriate friendship with another woman, has been told by his wife that she feels uncomfortable with it, but instead of validating her feelings he ignores it. But yet comes here to scream how he wants his marriage. ES did you come here because you REALLY WANT YOUR MARRIAGE or did you just think you would give 1 side of the story and that we would all support your inappropriate friendship so that you can relieve yourself of any wrong doings or guilt if the marriage came to an end? The other parent leaves the minute things don't go her way and involves her entire family in the process. COME ON PEOPLE! Grow up and give the child role models that can be respected. Get counseling either MC or IC but you both need help, if not for yourselves do it for the kid! JMO

It seems to me that if the BS that Empty Shell is communicating with is from here (MB board) she will be reading these posts. <p>As a BS it is easy to lean on another for support and understanding. But MB tells us that opposite sex support is not helpful to a marriage that is already in trouble. So if this betrayed wife that ES is communicating with (I am not calling her an OW) knows this and she is a good person then I would hope that she can see that the support she is recieving from ES is hurting his M. I would hope that she stop corresponding immediately with ES and find another support system. <p>If ES feels he is losing something by not communicating with this women then I would suggest that it is more than just a friendship to him.
Come on ES you know that you could also be hurting this women's chances of making her own marriage work. You are filling her ENs too even if your only intention is to help.<p>ES and Hope have so many other things to work on this is something that doesn't need to be part of it.

EmptyShell, I have to agree with everyone else about your friend. Look you say it's not an affair. OK, I believe you. However it is causing hopeful pain. For that reason and that alone it needs to go. I know how she feels. Mike is a knight in shining armor too, women find him easy to talk to. He has gotten better about not getting so involved with friendships with other women now because he has finally started to understand the pain and insecurity I feel because of them. And ES I felt that way before he ever had an A. I felt that way when I was the only WS in our marraige 22 years ago. Ilearned my lesson with that one short live PA. It has taken Mike much longer, 2 pa's and about 3 ea's or friendships for him to understand.<p>Is your friendship worth your marriage ? Is it really ES ? It really bothers me that this woman is supposed to be uncomfortable talking to hopeful instead of you. You know having been here so long how dangerous it is for a woman to talk to a man about her marriage problems. She needs to talk to another woman or to come here. I pray she isn't already here. Because if she is and she knows the pain this is causing and doesn't back off this friendship with you then she doesn't care one wit for your marriage. And frankly that scares me. <p>Who needs you more and is more important to you, your w and d or your friend. Only you can answer that. What will it take for you to give up this friendship ? What will it take for hopeful to get you to understand how much it hurts her and how much it undermines your marriage ? Do you care about the pain it is causing her ?<p>hopeful, I do understand how you feel. I have felt it too, but taking your daughter and leaving twice like that is not the answer to this problem. It may make ES feel insecure in the marriage too. It may make him feel that you don't love him enough to stay and work this out or fight it out or whatever. It would me. How would coming home from work and find him and your child gone have made you feel ? I'm pretty sure you would have been destroyed. What if he did that to you twice in a month ? Worse huh. <p>Why are you doing that ? To make him give up his friendship with this woman ? Honey that won't work. If I did that to Mike he would only get his back up even further like a big old cat and dug in and resisted me even harder. Maybe some kind of counseling would help. But running away to your parents who have made no secret that they want you two apart will not. What will it take for you to stop doing that ? What will ES have to do to get you to understand how much that hurts him and undermines your marriage ? Do you care about the pain it is causing him ?<p>What about the pain this has to be causing your child ? She has to know Mommy is unhappy with daddy about something. And being taken from one place to another, back and forth is hurtful to a child. I know because I lived that. She is not a baby who doesn't see what is happening around her. She is in the middle and that's a tough place to be, even if no one is talking badly about ES she knows hopeful, she feels all the stress and the pain. She probably doesn't really know what to think. <p>You are both wrong here. And it's sad because you have both worked so hard and been through so much.
Can't you two use the POJA and work out something ? Each of you will have to bend. Nobody gets their own way all the time. I care for you both and believe I have been equally fair to both of you. Not more on one side or the other I think that's what most of us have tried to do. Please, even if what has been said makes you angry at least think about it. You may both find we were right.