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Bernzini,<p>That story really reaffirms my belief that in many cases, it really is all about money. If you have it, you can buy what you want - including a husband. That is what my H's OW did. That is what Jill's husband's OW did. When you said that the stepfather was more "fun" I assume "fun" meant really that he could afford to take them skiing, etc. <p>And no, before my H left, money was not that important to me. I'm certainly not one to care one whit about keeping up with the Joneses, and as long as we had enough money to take care of and educate the kids, maybe go on vacation every 4 years or so, I was satisfied. After my H left, he admitted that he "couldn't separate his feelings about me from his feelings about our financial situation" - he'd gone into business for himself, which we had to give up because we weren't making enough money to support the family, our daughter had just started college, and our financial future wasn't too bright, but we weren't starving. <p>Lilly,<p>I am glad to hear that once in awhile reconciliation happens.<p>Sometimes I feel like I was mislead by the Harley statistics and by the "most affairs die within 2 years" stuff that is oft quoted. People have criticized the book "Sudden Endings" but the scenarios described therein are far more typical of the experiences of people whose spouses, suddenly move out after long-term marriages. Some psychologists believe that virtually all such affairs are a consequence of depression, one of the symptoms of which, btw, is feeling like too much of your money is being unjustifiably spent on others. Marriage builder principles are great when you are talking about mentally healthy people, but depression is a whole different ball game.

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Nellie, you made me laugh!! I still love the PT thread! I couldn't even LOOK at a Poptart for more than a year without bursting into fits of giggles. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] In fact, when Frank (PLEASE HELP) came to visit Robert and I, I met him at the airport with a box of strawberry ones held high so he'd know who I was!!! <p> I was gonna mention him and Harriet, but someone else did. I have another one, though. Robert's sister and her h divorced due to infidelity and stayed apart for more than five years. They both had long-term relationships during that time (and, yes, one was with the OP/soulmate - more than four years) and then "happened" upon each other one day. Well, they talked, dated for six months and remarried and have been happily married ever since (close to 10 years now, I think). Never SEEN a happier couple! She says it's because they both learned some big lessons, did some serious personal growth and know better how to take care of a marriage now. It's done well through a few tragedies, so I think they've got the hang of it this time.<p>I know there are others from wayyyyy back when I was lurking and then posting hard, but I'm having a hard time remembering them. <p>Once Robert and I reconciled, and starting appearing places together again (remember, he took PT everywhere he went), folks started talking a bit. I was amazed at the number of people who had, at one point, separated and reconciled for years into solid marriages. Seems like more folks go through it than I ever realized and just don't talk about it.<p>Yup, DeWayne (and the other requestors) maybe it's time for an update. I'll get to it soon, I promise. <p>Gotta run! <p>Love,<p>Lori

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Alright, this is my third try at getting this message posted, obviously I am usually just an occasional lurker. But, for all you people out there I want to remind you that yes there is hope. My WS and I were separated for two years, he lived with OW for first three months and then continued to see her. NC was condition of reconcilliaton. (boy is this the shortened version) anyway, I think I was doing my own version of Plan A, as this was five years ago now and I'm not even sure MB was online and I didn't have internet anyway. So there is hope, we are very happy now, I like this version of our marriage alot better than the old one. I have five friends that this same thing (or similar) has happened to, and they are all happily reconciled. So there is hope, and I promise you that whether you reconcile or not, the pain will pass and you will be happy. Just being here and reading these stories brings the feelings back to me and I know it is horrible. Please hang in there and know that no matter what, it WILL get better. My thoughts, tears, prayers for you all.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nellie1:
Sometimes I feel like I was mislead by the Harley statistics and by the "most affairs die within 2 years" stuff that is oft quoted. <hr></blockquote><p>I agree with you here. Not so much about the fact that *most* affairs DO END AFTER TWO YEARS, because I really do think most do, but about the "mislead" part that gave you (and others) an unrealistic hope. <p>I've said many times that I think the concepts here are fabulous for building a solid marriage, and sometimes for REbuilding after infidelity. But I also think you're right about the **kind** of people who will respond to the Plans.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>People have criticized the book "Sudden Endings" but the scenarios described therein are far more typical of the experiences of people whose spouses, suddenly move out after long-term marriages. Some psychologists believe that virtually all such affairs are a consequence of depression, one of the symptoms of which, btw, is feeling like too much of your money is being unjustifiably spent on others. Marriage builder principles are great when you are talking about mentally healthy people, but depression is a whole different ball game.<hr></blockquote><p>ALL MENTAL ILLNESS change the ball game, as do addictions (alcohol, drugs, sex). <p>As I was reading along here, of course I thought of so many friends I've met here, like Lori and Frank who have AMAZING successes despite some pretty big odds... and others, who I won't name (there are SO MANY) who are still with their spouses, and still struggle to rebuild, sometimes alone, and then that GREAT BIG divorce group to which you and I have both belonged, Nellie. And among the divorce group there are those who did the filing and those who were filed against. Yet another divide. <p>If I've learned anything over the last three years it is that life throws some nasty curves, and we ALL are just doing the best we can to survive. Time isn't the great healer, not by a long shot. Time keeps on going, and you will heal -- or not -- it depends on a lot of things. <p>I guess I just wanted to say that even I, the obnoxious MB-spouter who has loved this place and stood by the concepts, is realizing that the world does not begin and end with MB. I think they have some super ideas and when you're dealing with healthy partners who BOTH WANT TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE (because even those who succeed eventually have BOTH working at it)... it is TRULY WONDERFUL. But when you are ALONE, and one partner cannot commit, for whatever reason, it falls a little short - or a lot short. <p>I will continue to use what I've learned on my current marriage, because I believe in it. I pray to God that my H, or me, for that matter, never gives the other a reason to have to try to "win back" the marriage-- I don't ever want to go through that again. This is where I think the concepts shine -- BEFORE THERE IS A PROBLEM.<p>Okay, off my soapbox.<p>Nice talking to you Nellie, and you take care.<p>Lori, let me know when you write that update -- don't want to miss it.<p>DeWayne - I have tried to contact you several times over the months. The email I have is no good. Please write me.

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Nellie1 Offline OP
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lupolady,<p>Yes, I had forgotten about Frank. Unfortunately, the list is far too short.<p>Lori,<p>Nice to hear from you. <p>I wish I personally knew even one couple who had reconciled after an affair in real life, much less after leaving to go live with the OW. Of course since I know only a handful of people who are divorced, I suppose that isn't so surprising.<p>Rella,<p>I have been told that time heals, but I had not found that to be the case - my H has been gone for three years, and it has not gotten better. <p>Sheryl,<p>As you know, I have long maintained that mental illness is at the root of many, probably most, affairs in long-term marriages - and I would put addictions under the heading of mental illness. And you are right about time. <p>snl,<p>Somehow I missed your post before. One could also look at it from the opposite perspective - that the empty nest triggers depression in the WS, which leads to the affair.<p>I am convinced that loss and fear of loss had a lot to do with my H's depression. My spouse's depression and affair began shortly after he had to give up his business that he was very attached to, as our oldest was going off to college, and most importantly right after a young relative of mine was murdered - but one could hardly claim he left because his child-rearing days were over, as we have six kids, the youngest of whom was only two at the time.

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I think at the beginning of this thread it said something about long term marriages, I haven't seen any numbers indicating years.<p>I do however seen in our signature lines that many of us have been married the 17-24 years and some even longer when the A happens or D day is.<p>I do wonder what it is that causes problems in that time frame of a marriage? Any insights or thoughts? I now my WH turned 40 and is having a MLC that he denies. <p>I know that WH has filed DV papers so that he can marry OW, his soulmate and HS Sweetart.
Just wondering, Dawn<p>[ February 23, 2002: Message edited by: daybreak ]</p>

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Nellie1 Offline OP
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daybreak,<p>My H left just after our 19th anniversary, when he was 49.

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Hi All--
My H left in Aug and I found out about the OW 2 weeks later ( he still denies that anything happened until after he left)....anyway we would have been married 20 yrs last Oct.....this is such a disappointment. We have been together and he been my best friend for over 22 yrs. The stats that I have been reading...they upset me! I know that I have to move along with this divorce...and I am....but there is always the thought that he will WAKE up and come home. He had the OW transfered to his office (1200 miles!) and she moved her 7 yr old here....she bought a brand new gigantic house and my H lives with her....he seems to have forgotten the part about morals and teenagers and how he promised me we would be sitting in rocking chairs together on a front porch.....okay..sorry... a little venting...I am also not having the greatest day. You would think after 7 months the shock would wear off! I would love to hear some more positive stories! (PLEASE!)
MAX

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Nellie, I am sooo glad you asked this questions and have felt somewhat more hopeful since reading some of these responses. I too have known some people who have left after discovery of their A and who one to two years later returned to their spouse - usually it happened after the spouse really moved on - and it happens almost as if one minute they were convinced they would stay with the OP and the next they were calling their spouse to talk about getting back together. In my case I don't think this will happen and if it does I doubt I will be wanting to reconcile - but who knows - I do know that I am finally SURE that whatever happens was meant to and that I will find out, hopefully soon, why this has happened to me! Thank you so much all of you who responded to this survey - I know it has lifted the hearts of many.
On a completely different note - the person who posted as "rella" - I would be interested to know if this is your name and if so could you e-mail me or let me know how to get in touch with you. Thanks. Carebear<p>Married almost 31 yrs.
three adult children
H had several affairs - this one
has lasted many years
found out 3 years ago - divorce is
almost final

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Carebear, Rella is a nickname and I'm pretty new to posting, how do I find out your email?

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Rella - I don't know how you can e-mail me - I'm new to this too - anyone out there know?

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Max,<p>I don't think that it ever wears off - especially when they keep twisting the knife - I don't feel any better than I did three years ago.<p>Carebear,<p>I am glad you found some encouragement here. I just wish it were a higher percentage.

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Hi again,<p> I think you are not seeing more stories because alot of people , reconcile and then don't post again. I know there are many times I think I just need to quit reading here, it can be very upsetting and send me back to the bad times".<p>If you spend any time reading on the "Other Woman" board, www.gloryb.com the general consensus of everyone there is MOST MM do NOT leave their Wives and if they do, they end up back with them.There are a few "success stories" (as they call them) but few and far between. LU

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I truly hope that my H's new relationship is not a "sucess story" fot the OW board! I still van't believe that I have to be in the small percentage of marriages where the H totally leaves and starts a new life! It's nuts!!! Have a good day everyone!!
MAX

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I agree with Nellie. In my personal observation on this board and in my life during the last three years, once someone leaves and moves in with someone else, the odds of coming back are slim. In fact, once there is a separation of any kind, the odds are not in favor of reconciliation. I suspect the MB techiques do help to increase the odds, probably materially. It may bring it up from a 5% chance to a 15%, at least that's my guess.<p>The main point of this is not whether you should or shouldn't make an effort, but rather one of creating false expectations, often based on denial. If most people entering these boards came in believing that the odds were against them, they would make different decisions, and I believe get over their grieving more quickly. That's the problem with false hope. It keeps people actively working on a marriage that exists on paper only (when the spouse is living with an OP), rather than focusing on building a new life. Waiting for someone else to do something is an infinitely depressing state to be in, and I don't believe healthy psychologically.<p>In my e-mail group of six (starting back in 1998), five are divorced and one is in process. Every one of us worked it hard.<p>Unfortunately, although I don't think their intentions are bad, the Harley's create false hope with the statistic that says few affairs survive the two year mark. MANY DO, and even when they don't, often so much damage is done that the wayward doesn't come back or falls into another affair. It's the reality I've seen.

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I don't really know what the statistics say, but I can tell you that we are rebuilding, successfully I hope.<p>We had been married for 20 years when I found out about my WH A, it was a long term A, 4 yrs. He was 39 when it started, she was 21. The day I found out, he moved out, to an apt. he had been renting for the past 4 months. He did not move in with OW, she lives in another province and wouldn't move back here and he wouldn't move out there.<p>We were separated for 8 months and then he moved back in. He sat on the fence for another 7 months, until we figured out because of other behaviors, that he had a sex addiction. He attended meetings, started no contact and we've never been happier. He tells me all the time that he appreciates how much I love him, that he's sorry he's betrayed my trust. He's told me that one of the things that brought him back was the realization that of all the people in the world, I was the one who loved him the most.<p>I just wanted to say that yes, it can happen, they can come back. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

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Lu,<p>I'm quite certain that many men have affairs, often multiple, and don't leave their wives, and are therefore not gloryb "success stories." (yuk).
But I think a lot of those men are of the "cakeman" sort, or those who feel "entitled" to have affairs. I suspect those who have affairs as a consequence of depression, who want others to make decisions for them, are the sort who are likely to immediately move in with the OW and then accept the OW's direction, divorcing when she insists upon it, ignoring his children when she directs him to. <p>Distressed,<p>I think you are likely correct that the Harley's two year time frame is largely imaginary. I doubt that in my case it would make any difference in grieving, because it has become obvious to me that this is not something I will ever recover from, but it might have made a difference in decisions I made - I regret not making all decisions from the point of view of what would most benefit my children financially. Obviously treating my H with love and care has only allowed him, and more importantly the OW, to walk all over us.

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Max,<p>I wish I really believed it was a small percentage.<p>luvmydogs2,<p>I wonder how significant it was that he was not willing to move to where she was, or vice versa. I think in many cases the WS who immediately moves in with the OW is willing to do whatever she says. Certainly my H was willing to give up spending much time with his kids because they annoyed her - he came right out and said so.

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Nellie, do you still believe your XH has NPD?<p>From reading your posts and links I found my XH was defined. If you still believe NPD exists, then this MB stuff is out the door. Plan A is the worst possible way to handle yourself when dealing with this type of person. <p>Our H's were about the same age, depressed, experienced failure, financial issues, deliberately searched the net for our replacements, disassociated from previous life, and mine married OW 10/21/99. And, you have written tons more that mirrors my XH.<p>In any case, I have not found much on the subject of a NPD person returning to a marriage. I don't even know if it could happen since we don't exist in their mind.<p>I'd say that the OP would have to be "normal" and not desperate like the OWs both of our H's selected for that marriage to end. Even if the marriage ends, then I wonder if the NPD person will even think about the other world as a viable option.<p>In any case, just wondering where you were with your NPD research and if you still believe it applies to your XH.<p>IS

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What is NPD, and what are the symptoms .... how do you diagnose.<p>Also, my x-H aknowledged my existence ALOT (I love you and I miss you) but proceeded full force on the Divorce regardles, but with, of course, the OW at the Helm BIG TIME.<p>Jo<p>[ February 24, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

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