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Well, I've received advice from two independent professional sources that it might be a good idea to confront OM. I know some out there would question this wisdom. But I believe the thinking is along these lines... one of two things might happen:<p>1. OM does have something of a change of heart, starts treating WW differently, and the LB$ deposits slow or stop. WW might see this as terribly manipulative on my part, but by then, it's too late - the LB$ has changed. Given her fence sitting, there's a good chance she'd fall on my side eventually.<p>2. OM doesn't have a change of heart - maybe even laughs at me. In this case, WW would still undoubtedly know about the encounter, and now needs to examine OM's character in this context - i.e. him being a pri*k to me.<p>In either case, just the fact that OM now has to see my face when he sees HER face could be a powerful thing, as Steve noted.<p>What do WS or ex-WS think about this. If your BS was to have such an encounter - non-violent, just simply asking a few questions, getting some things aired out - how would / might that have affected you?<p>How about BS out there? How many have done this successfully? (I know there's a few horror stories, too. Let's assume I'll be calm and collected about it - I think I can manage that.)<p>I'm honestly considering doing this on the weekend. (I have no clue what the guy looks like, but know his address, at least the apartment complex he lives in.)

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I think it's a GREAT idea. If my H had confronted the OM and asked him to back off, this would have ended before it began. My H, however, has always had the opinion that he shouldn't have to work to keep a marriage together...that you're just supposed to stay together because you love each other...and if I want to leave it must mean I don't love him, so there's nothing he can do about it. We've still got some work to do in that area. ANYWAY...you will want to thouroughly emotionally prepared, or atleast as much as you can be...you don't want to come across as an a**hole or he will just feed off of that, and you don't want to come across a whiny wimp either. As coolheaded as you can possibly be would be the best. I know that will be very hard though. I'd say it's definatly worth a shot. I also think that following through with your plan B would shoot her off the fence pretty quickly as well.

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I have made contact with OM on several occassions: <p>The first time I was told that he recognized that my W was suffering from low self-esteem and would never take advantage of it, yet he continued to contact her and make special trips from his home state to see her.<p>The second time he tried to befriend me. Telling me not to divorce my W and to follow my heart - the whole time he was calling her daily and trying to convince her to marry him. This actually went on for several weeks.<p>I was once told not to expect morality from an immoral person.

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>>> I was once told not to expect morality from an immoral person <<<<p>Ha, ha! Oh so how true.... You know.... I think I'll bring along a recorder of some sort..... Certainly not admissable in a court, but might be admissable in the court of WW if it turns out "confusion" arises as to exactly what was said <insert evil grin here>.....

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How could you prevent from wanting to rip his head off? My H went to see the OM. I was in such a state of depression, I didn't really care either way (pathetic, I know), but the OM is not capable of saying anything that will help YOU. No matter what he says, just his voice could rip a hole through you.<p>I've been trying desperately to put myself in the shoes of a BS. I've imagined my H with another W and it kills me to think of it. This is not even close to what my H feels. I cannot feel that kind of pain unless I've been there.<p>But what I can tell you, is that if this imaginary W was in my path, I think her voice alone would send me to the moon. No matter how many times I rehearsed my speech at home, I'd want to tackle her to the ground. I'm not a violent person at all either.<p>When my H saw the OM in his car, he tried to run him off the road. My H said these feelings came from nowhere. It was just the sight of him.<p>So, my question to you is, what will talking to the OM do for YOU? I honestly do not think that he will be capable of looking bad in the eyes of the WS depending where they are in the A. The fog is usually too thick. If anything, he may come off looking like the knight in shining armor. Be careful with this one.<p>[ February 27, 2002: Message edited by: Kim101 ]</p>

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Hi Kim,<p>Well, I know redhat successfully confronted their OM recently, and did a good job of it. At this point, I've lost enough love that I think it'd be more of a textbook exercise for me, sadly. Yes, very sad. That's why it's now or never in many ways, I think. There's this and Plan B, and that's about it - then I can shelter my remaining feelings.<p>(Both counselors pointed out that often-times, such a confrontation marks the turning point in OP/WS relationship, as their two realities clash. As you say, the fog is thick, but the events of reality do eventually catch up - for most anyway. That's what I'm counting on.)

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Wouldn't it be funny if you told OM that you concede that he's the better man and that you will not stand in the way of your W and OM's happiness? And ask him when would it be convenient time for you to take W's belongings to his home?. I'd bet the look on his face would be priceless. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Joe

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J.R. - just sharing my experience with this. My point will be that it's impossible to predict what may occur given the wide range of personalities and emotions involved for both the BS and OP.<p>I had two semi-planned confrontations and one unplanned one with OM. Keep in mind that before the affair, we were quite good friends, though having very little in common. He and his family were very instrumental in the care of my son for several years and he was a pallbearer in his funeral. So, to say we had more than a casual relationship is an understatement.<p>I intentionally did not confront him for over a year after the affair started. His W and I deduced the affair quite early, we believe.<p>On two occasions I saw him driving past my house as I was walking my dogs on the way to his (former) home to pick up one of his daughters. Because they live at the end of a cul-de-sac, he has to drive past my house again on the way out. I intentionally - foolishly in hindsight - walked the dogs in the middle of the street so he would have to stop. My plan was to just see his reaction, since I reasoned he was not man enough to face me. On the first occasion, he just stared straight ahead until I got out of the way (it was cold, so his window was up and we didn't speak). On the second occasion, he tried to intimidate me by not slowing and swerved around me at the last second - almost into my yard. As he passed, he shouted out the window, "Watch it!" I told this story here and the best reply I got was that I shouldn't play chicken with a Turkey. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The unplanned encounter took place in the community pool parking lot - not long after the second street encounter. I was in my car and he was walking from his to the pool. I pulled up beside him and asked him to please drive more carefully in the neighborhood. He responded that he would never hit me. The rest of the conversation went something like this:<p>Me: Can't you see what you and <my W> are doing to yourselves and our families?<p>OM: We know exactly what we're doing. Our marriages were over a long time ago. Just accept it and get on with your life!<p>Me: Can you understand that <my W> may just be running from the pain of losing <son>?<p>OM: Sure she's in pain - and you ignored her! And what about all that money you were hiding that could have been spent on <son's> care?<p>Of course, I don't have to deny those accusations to anyone. But this revealed to me SO much about the nature of their rationalizations.<p>Anyway, J.R. - proceed with caution, but don't pretend to know how it'll turn out.<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

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Hi JR<p>As a BS I'm not the responder you want, but I did confront the OM. I found out he was married and hoped that a confidential chat might make him back off. In the event I phoned him up and his wife answered and made him take the call. She already suspected and knew my wife so when I gave my name she put 2 and 2 together. I arranged to meet him straightaway. Before he met me he confessed to his W and phoned my W and she turned up while we were meeting. It was not the outcome I wanted as he said he wanted to set up home with my W and knew how it would hurt the extended families. I had to leave them together.<p>Since then I have wondered whether I did the right thing. Would a 'secret' affair have been easier to manage? I'm not sure. I do know that realising it was going on was killing me anyway and the subsequent bombshell has been hell. No answers I'm afraid - just more thoughts.<p>The very best of luck to you.

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I had originally planned as a New year's resolution to confront OM on 3/1 if A was still going on. A has cooled off IMO. All computer contact has stopped. Surreptitious phone calls over the weekend have stopped. My WS says she will not leave our marriage for OM. But she won't talk about A, or ending it. She just says "let me handle it".<p>I have talked to OM on IM twice. I asked him both times to voluntarily back off and he said he couldn't do that, it is WS's choice between him and me. Now I am considering going to his place of business (car dealership) on a Sat afternoon to talk to him. I would ask him what his intentions are with my W now that she has decided to stay married. I would tell him that now he is the primary problem in my marriage and he must be removed. I would tell him that he is wasting his life, when he could be pursuing someone who offers him a future.<p>I am vary afraid, though, that I would get violent and threaten him with a baseball bat. He is an arrogant, smug a""hole who has bragged in chat rooms about his soulmate relationship with my W and how she hasn't loved me for 10 yrs and how she doesn't care about hurting me. Thus, I doubt he is very compassionate. As another said here "not to expect morality from an immoral person".

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Thanks for sharing those experiences...<p>Yes, it's quite an unknown. It could be "just the ticket" or backfire big time. But... Given that I'm nearly at the end of my rope anyway... It seems to me it comes down to risk versus reward. Am I willing to lose? I think I am. So I'm going to do some preparation. I'm going to ask a friend of mine whether we can do some role playing and such over the phone... I think that'll help. One factor that might prove - interesting? - is that this guy has very poor English - I wonder if he'll even "get it". We'll see.<p>The other thing that makes me pause a bit is simply questioning where things are at. If they're degrading between them naturally, I don't need to stir the pot. I see such contradictary behavior from WW (i.e. confusion) that I don't really have a way to judge that. So it comes down to gut instincts. With 2 different professionals suggesting this, I tend to fall on that side. But I will probably give it till next week (need more prep time).<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: J.R. ]</p>

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There couldn't be a bigger LB in my book.<p>My H has contacted OM several times -- by phone, by voice mail, and by e-mail.<p>No matter how many times I tell him that his issues are with ME, he has resorted to this -- and it made him look desperate and really unappealing to me. Working AROUND me rather than WITH me. Yuck.

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Lexxxy, I wonder if you'd feel different if H came to you and asked you beforehand, along the lines of, "I was wondering how you'd feel if I talked to OM. I feel it would be valuable for me personally, was suggested by IC/MC, but realize you may have a different perspective." In a sense, POJA'ing it.

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I confronted the OM and at the very least it made ME feel better. I knew that he now knew under no uncertain terms where I stood, and from a Man to Man standpoint, that alone made it worth the while. It also gave me and my W, especially my W, the opportunity to see first hand how much this OM really cared about her, which wasn't nearly as much as my W had thought. Initially she made excuses for his statements and actions, but over time, as the so called fog lifted, she really began to see the OM for what he was.....an opportunist.

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I don't think you can force an A to end.
What will you have gained by doing so?
Are you going to force your WS back because you've taken away their other choices?
Trying to control the outcome?<p>I have greatly resented my H's attempts to force my A to end. Oh suddenly NOW I have your attention huh? My needs were never important enough for you to address....but YOUR need for my affair to be over is important.<p>UGH.

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Lexxy,<p>If I didn't know better, I'd think you were my W. My W has continued to say "its not about OM, its about you and me". To that I say, "fine if its about you and me then stop contacting OM - stop sending emails back and forth about getting married and spending your lives together." <p>I have since found out the depths of this OM's lies to me, to my W, and to his W. This man has had numerous affairs on several wives. He told my W lies that, upon investigation, have proven him a pathological liar. However, even with the proof, she still protects him - maybe its because she doesn't want to admit that she was an idiot for falling for all the BS (and I don't mean betrayed spouse [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )

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Lexxxy: I don't think you can force an A to end.<p>J.R.: That's not really my intention. I realize that's not possible. I even realize it could make it stronger. However, that being said, it's more for ME to see and understand this person who has willingly participated in my WW's "confusion". I have concerns for her and the viability of their A - and I simply want to get some answers on where he thinks he's going with it.<p>Lexxxy: Are you going to force your WS back because you've taken away their other choices?Trying to control the outcome?<p>J.R.: Oh my, I doubt I could do this at the best of times!! But I would honestly be surprised if her perspectives didn't change at least a bit. OM is an opportunist, and when she realizes that, given her admissions of love for me, I strongly suspect where her heart will be.

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To Sad
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If I didn't know better, I'd think you were my W. My W has continued to say "its not about OM, its about you and me". To that I say, "fine if its about you and me then stop contacting OM - stop sending emails back and forth about getting married and spending your lives together." <hr></blockquote>But thats my point -- why do you get to tell her she has to stop contact? You can't make that happen. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I have since found out the depths of this OM's lies to me, to my W, and to his W. This man has had numerous affairs on several wives. He told my W lies that, upon investigation, have proven him a pathological liar. However, even with the proof, she still protects him - maybe its because she doesn't want to admit that she was an idiot for falling for all the BS (and I don't mean betrayed spouse ) <hr></blockquote>Well, you're out to see the worst, and educate her on what a bad decision she's made then? Good luck.
You can wrap up several LB's with that one.<p>I guess my advice is to work your Plan A or Plan B. Stop making it about the OP. These plans are supposed to be about you. You can't control your WS, and I personally think its a big LB'ing mistake to try. <p>If you have a repentent WS, you're in recovery, or you're at the end of Plan B -- and you need to answer questions for yourself and need this for your own recovery -- then go ahead. <p>But don't do this in the hopes of controlling or manipulating the end of the affair.<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lexxxy ]<p>[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: Lexxxy ]</p>

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I confronted OW twice. <p>Once in 1994 when me and H were separated and he was living with her - his friend. I called to ask her if she knew if he was seeing anyone. I laugh now at my naivity. She said it wasn't her place to tell me and that I should ask my H. I said I did and that he said he wasn't and he is committed to working on our marriage. and i said if i knew he was seeing someone else, I would let him go. She said to talk to him. grrrr - coward.<p>The second time was in 2001 I sent this email to her after H send her no contact (and I the time I didn't care about no contact):<p>OW,
H sent you an email that said he has hurt some
people by continuing an inappropriate relationship
with you. H is a grown man and he is responsible
for his own actions but you did play a part in it. My God says to love you and bless you and pray for you. Although I am mad at you I will pray you will never have to go through the pain and heartbreak that my family is experiencing now. I did feel like I had a responsibility to share my heart because me and my kids are real people with real feelings and real hurt.<p>Me<p>....
I got no response from her (not surprised - she is a coward)<p>Anyway, here is my basis for why I think it is essential to confront - although it should just be once (my confrontation were 6 years apart).<p>This is from http://www.cloudtownsend.com/Articles/simple_scoop.htm<p>Limiting Evil<p>One of the other aspects of boundaries that is important is the limiting effect upon evil. Remember, because God does not control people, they are, in a certain way, free to be evil. He does not make them be good. He limits His sovereignty and control in some ways that we do not totally understand. But, even though He allows them to be evil, He limits the effects of their choices. He exercises limits on the effect that their choices will have on Him, His church, the world, etc.<p>He has also given us this duty, to limit the effect that evil choices that people make can have on life. One of the best examples of that is in Matthew 18:15-18. It is the role of us to take a stand and &#8220;bind&#8221; evil as it presents itself. Read Psalms 101 for a great description of how David thought about the things that must be bound so that the evil of others would not &#8220;cling&#8221; to him.<p>In addition, He wants us to limit the effect that the evil is having on their life as well. He wants us to restore those who get &#8220;caught up,&#8221; by evil. We are to put boundaries on the cancer that is destroying them and be redemptive in their lives. (Gal. 6:1)<p>God is about Life. He is about restoring good things. And to do that, evil things must be held in check and transformed. He has given us many tools to perform this function of the salt that seasons the earth:<p>Truth and Commands <p>Confrontation <p>Rebuke <p>Exhortation <p>Forgiveness <p>Group Intervention <p>Consequences <p>Discipline <p>Restoration <p>Limit Setting <p>Separation <p>These are some of the processes that God has told us to do that limit and restore evil. And, they work. The problem is that we do not exercise our control and responsibility to do these things in our significant relationships, the church, and the world at large. As has been the story since the garden of Eden, the mess is largely of our own making. If we would use our self-control to do these things, then we would not have the messes in various aspects of life in which we find ourselves. We have misused our freedom. But, the good news of boundaries is that you can take control back in your own areas of influence, and begin to limit evil and restore life.

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Lexxy...but it isn't all about you. That's what most of us BS get into the mindset of...it's about me... I think a BS has every right to confront the co-conspiritor in one of the most painful experiences of their life. And maybe it isn't about "fixing" anything anymore...at some point it's just about being seen. I think it's a great idea, for JR...his wife's "feelings" on the subject may be rather moot at this point. I wouldn't have found my H confronting the OM less attractive at all...it would have showed backbone and interest in the marriage for a change. I'm not saying he didn't have either...just that in my mindset it's how it appeared to me. I say go for it JR...there comes a point when it can't get any worse. Good luck.

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