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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by feeling1:
<strong>I wonder why the resentment is aimed at the other person. Why don't we all take a good look at ourselves and the lying, cheating person we are married to before we make excuses for their behavior.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p> There is usually plenty of anger and resentment to go around. I never made excuses for my H's behavior and neither did he. He took full responsibility. I held him fully accountable for everything he did. I had plenty of anger and resetment for him. But I have also always felt that sleeping with someone else's spouse is a toally low life and cruel thing to do to someone else, even to someone you don't know. I've felt this way long before I was married. The bottom line is that it is easier to forgive someone we love and want in our lives than it is to "forgive" someome who we definitely don't love and we definitely don't
want in our lives. I had much more of an incentive to make peace with my resentful feelings towards my H than I did to make peace with some skank who willingly and eagerly entered into an affair with my husband and purposefully tried to ruin my life (even more) when he ended their affair. Another biggy for me - He was SORRY for all of the horrible pain he caused me. He was in my face 24/7 showing me how sorry he was for what he did and doing everythign possible to make it up to me and work on the marriage. Remorse goes a long way with me and it meant a lot. The OW wasn't sorry (except for herself) and she even told me she was glad that I was hurting so badly. H took full responsibility for his actions. OW didn't own up to any responsibility for her part in the affair, for the choices she willingly made that lead to her pain. Even though she admitted that she had been asking him out for several months before anything happened, she still said it was all his fault. Oh and my fault, I forgot. He ruined her life because he "broke her heart" (barf) and I ruined her life because I took him back. Honestly though, if she had left me alone and not turned fatal attraction she would pretty much be a complete nonentity to me (which is what I wanted).

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>So two wrongs make a right? Ummm....nope!<p>Most people who have affairs aren't out to hurt anyone...they're trying to fill the gaping hole in their life, although the way in which they are trying to do so is wrong and misguided. That's a good bit different from wanting to dissolve someone in acid or beat them.<p></strong><hr></blockquote><p>But people who have affairs DO HURT OTHER PEOPLE. They hurt INNOCENT people. They hurt INNOCENT children. The OP's intent does not absolve them of the destruction they leave in their path. Ted Bundy didn't mean to hurt people either, he was just out to "fill a gap in his little life." Good grief, talk about warped logic.<p>On the other hand, joking about harming vile, sick, destructive individuals is a perfectly healthy way of releasing steam. <p>So no, your analogy doesn't work here because they are not both WRONGS.

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Please everyone, ignore some of the terribles posts here by the Om/Ow. Things seems to be going downhill on GloryB. That site is quiet unless they have a flame war going on. Many of them are bored with going to I.comm to make waves so lately they have been coming here.<p>"Clarkie" seems to be on at least 3 to 4 different boards a day to see who is saying what. If you read some of this posts on GloryB, you will see that "he" is not qualify to be a moderator. Objective, he is not. Only time that he likes to post is when there's a flame going on and he's usually on the side "kicking" the injured party. Only on GloryB would you have someone like him as a moderator. <p>Shannon, you said GloryB helped you, but didn't they tell you to stop your whining about your internet affair? And when you tried to kick Clarkie off as moderator, you were told to go?<p>As for the recent post about "hurting the OP", there were so many references on GloryB about hurting the betrayed that it's a norm for them that they don't even notice the remarks. If the OP want to point fingers at the spouses about venting, then make sure you can point it at yourself first.

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Yes they are. Murderous thoughts are pretty wrong...or at the very least unprodictive. Are we going to all be petty and sink into this kind of immature idiocy, or grow up a bit and move forward? <p>I still CAN'T BELIEVE that anyone thinks violent fantasies are OK? Give me a BREAK!

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TTF,
Why are you here? I'm not sure of your story. Are you here to rebuild your marriage, or learn about affairs and how they possibly have affected your life? Your posts don't seem to be directed at learning or helping anyone. You are pointing your fingers at this board and all it's problems... what are you trying to do to get it on track?<p>
You said:
Most people who have affairs aren't out to hurt anyone...they're trying to fill the gaping hole in their life, although the way in which they are trying to do so is wrong and misguided. That's a good bit different from wanting to dissolve someone in acid or beat them.<p>The difference is wanting to do something, and doing something. The difference is HAVING and affair, and WANTING to seek revenge.<p>There's many of us that want or NEED to fill a gaping hole in our lives, but we don't resort to adultery or infidelity to fill that hole. <p>BIGGGGG difference. <p>You're very right: we shouldn't allow ourselves to even *think* lustful or vengeful thoughts at ALL. You are right that those two things are WRONG. <p>It seems that we all agree on the following:
1. THinking, feeling and venting, and then moving on is healthy.<p>2. Dwelling, or acting on these thoughts is what is illegal, immoral, or dangerous.<p>my 2 cents<p>[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

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TowardsTheFuture<p>You are right that two wrongs do not make a right. <p>Affairs are wrong because they hurt innocent people. But those involved in the affair did have an affair. They acted on it. A wrong was committed.<p>Of the two wrongs of thinking of committing a crime and actually committing one, which is a more grievous wrong?<p>As for the venting/voicing of evil, revengeful thoughts. In traditional psychotherapy this type of venting is encouraged. They actually teach people to use things like pillows as substitutes for the person they are angry with. They teach people to beat the pillow up, yell at it, etc… to get it out. How is this any different from what is going on here? Well the difference is that it is going on in a public forum instead of the privacy of a doctor’s office.<p>I don’t think that I was talking about two wrongs. No one here is advocating doing anything to the OP or the WS. What I was trying to say above is that we have to face the fact that BS’s often sink to terrible, black places emotionally. I would rather have them come here and tell us about it and then have the people on this board talk them to a more reasonable place. Perhaps we can prevent a tragedy by doing this. I think what happened on that other thread is that as soon as one person brought it up, people came out of the shadows with their sick fantasies. <p>You are also right that this place is starting to look like a Jerry Springer show lately. <p>The point I was trying to make is that what we have seen here is the ugliness can go on in the BS’s mind. Most BS’s know that they have to stop these thoughts. But some people don’t and that’s scary.<p>I have become very concerned about the turn this board is taking. There is little marriage building (of the MB sort) going on here. It is turning into a venting board. While it does help to get our anger and frustration out once in a while the best thing to do, as suggested my MB, DB and most other successful marriage building models, is to just start doing the right thing. Venting and wallowing will not get anyone anywhere. If too much of it is done, a person will actually dig an emotional hole that they cannot get out of easily.<p>STL and I discussed this last night and how to turn the board around and away from this stuff and back to more solid “MB’ing”?<p>TTF and every one else, what do you suggest we do, as a loosely knit group, to this end?

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>Yes they are. Murderous thoughts are pretty wrong...or at the very least unprodictive. Are we going to all be petty and sink into this kind of immature idiocy, or grow up a bit and move forward? <p>I still CAN'T BELIEVE that anyone thinks violent fantasies are OK? Give me a BREAK!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Most people who joke and fantasize about harming evil, destructive people aren't out to hurt anyone...they're trying to fill the gaping hole in their life. Know what I mean? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>So two wrongs make a right? Ummm....nope!<p>Most people who have affairs aren't out to hurt anyone...they're trying to fill the gaping hole in their life, although the way in which they are trying to do so is wrong and misguided</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Congratulations on penning one of the most moronic statements I have seen in a long time. If you think there is good in everyone, then you have not met everyone. Some people get off on stealing something that belongs to others. Just for the sake of stealing. I don't fantasize about justice. I am committed to it. If the OM (the spineless freak who sacrificed his wife and two young kids to marry my XW) ever puts a hand on my son, his bodily functions will be altered forever. You see, they cannot be trusted because lives have little value. So it just involves more than two self centered individuals bent on genital exhileration.

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I've been here quite a while, Faith...search my posts if you're interested in my story. I'm happily in recovery, and I guess I shouldn't get so frustrated by seeing other people in such a totally wrong and unproductive frame of mind (i.e. "should I get physical" or "have you hurt OP") but I do anyway. It is frustrating to see people so off the course in how recovery thinking should seemingly be, but I guess there's no set "road map" and some people have to learn the hard way.

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It is encouraging to know that people use to get stoned to death in the Old Testament for Adultery. The New Testament says forgive this but also says she must "go and sin no more". What about all these OW/OM who have no remorse? The law should do something. It should be a punishable crime. But those enforcing the laws are breaking them themselves so we are all left unprotected. Our laws are just going to crap, rape, incest, adultery, our nation is going to crap. The Bible talks about this is how it will be at the end times. <p>I found myself praying for OW the other day. The ONLY way she will fully understand the harm she has done is if she becomes bornagain. Otherwise, there are no rules, do whatever makes you happy. But in the end there will be a price to pay.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong> I'm happily in recovery, and I guess I shouldn't get so frustrated by seeing other people in such a totally wrong and unproductive frame of mind (i.e. "should I get physical" or "have you hurt OP") but I do anyway. It is frustrating to see people so off the course in how recovery thinking should seemingly be, but I guess there's no set "road map" and some people have to learn the hard way.</strong><hr></blockquote><p> Obviously not everyone recovers in the same way and I imagine many WS see it a lot differently than the BS. I had revenge fantasies (though mine were mostly along the lines of getting her fired from her job), never acted on them even though the OW directly harassed me for 3 months. In the end living well really is the best revenge. I'm living proof that afew unacted on fantasies don't damage recovery because afew days was 3 years of successful and happy recovery for us! Things have never been better, despite my horrible troll like BS thoughts that I supposedly wasn't "entitled to have" lol. Bad thoughts about the OW neither hurt nor helped our marital recovery. It was something totally separate, just for me. Those thought kept me from actually doing anything rash while she was harassing me.

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Okieman...<p>I'm not saying that having an affair isn't wrong...it takes a two year old to see that it is. That's not what's being discussed here...frankly the OP should be insignificant and thought shoukdn't be wasted on them. I was talking specifically about the WS's motivation...which, for women at least (which I am) is just to get the attention and love that's missing in their relationship. It wasn't about willfully hurting anyone...and thoughts of premeditated murder are not about filling missing emotional needs, IMHO...unless it's trying to regain the loss of the precious power and control that was unhealthy and probably imaginary to begin with.<p>Why is so much thought being devoted to the OP? They are insignificant! They cound be anybody! That DO NOT MATTER! They filled a role, that's all..so why are you people wasting time dwelling on thoughts of hurting them when you could be spending that time and energy working towards repairing your marriage?<p>[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

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TTF,<p>What was that comment that most OPs do not intend to hurt anyone???
People who drive while under the influence don't intend to hurt others either. Bottom line is they do.
Both can be prevented and can be stopped.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cl:
<strong>TTF,<p>What was that comment that most OPs do not intend to hurt anyone???
People who drive while under the influence don't intend to hurt others either. Bottom line is they do.
Both can be prevented and can be stopped.</strong><hr></blockquote><p> And both are totally selfish yet deliberate actions (unless the OP doesn't know the MP is married). Most OP probably don't set out to hurt anyone, they just don't care or think about the feelings of others. I know that was the case with the one I dealt with.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:
<strong>I've been here quite a while, Faith...search my posts if you're interested in my story. I'm happily in recovery, and I guess I shouldn't get so frustrated by seeing other people in such a totally wrong and unproductive frame of mind (i.e. "should I get physical" or "have you hurt OP") but I do anyway. It is frustrating to see people so off the course in how recovery thinking should seemingly be, but I guess there's no set "road map" and some people have to learn the hard way.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Have you considered that you might not be in a position to tell others - especially BS' - what their "road map" is? They didn't run out and have an illicit affair, you did. So please stop the moralizing, it sounds so hollow and fake coming from a WS.<p>Further, just as many have expressed over and over here, joking and fantasizing about harming someone who has caused great destruction in your life is a very healthy way to vent and release steam. Ask any psychologist. <p>If it bothers you so much, then ignore the thread, but don't try and exaggerate it into something that is harmful just because it makes you uncomfortable. The BSes here have no obligation to stop doing what is normal and healthy just to accomodate your guilty conscience.

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I really don't have much to add one way or the other on this thread. When I was reading this I was reminded of a sign that hangs in my office. It says:<p>Watch your thoughts; they become words
Watch your words; they become actions
Watch your actions; they become habits
Watch your habits; they become character
Watch your character; it becomes your destiny

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Not to jump on the bash TTF bandwagon, but TTF your past posts here have been quirky at best. On another thread where the discussion was about violence toward the WS, EVERYONE agreed that violence was not the answer. I went a step further on that thread and told my story of how I resorted to violence with my WS as an illustration of "what NOT to do", and your post towards me was one of condemnation, as though I was somehow trying to justify my actions. It's as though you don't actually READ what people post here, particularly what I wrote on that particular thread. It's as though you see the words, but that you don't interpret them without first running it through a filter that is full of guilt and self-centeredness. And yes self-centeredness, is the term I choose. I choose it because of the comments that you made on the thread about hurting the OP. When you, a WS tells a BS.....
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TowardsTheFuture:<p>Quit thinking about yourselves so much...it was probably thinking more of "you" than it was "the TWO of you (as in you and your spouse)" that got you to where you are now to begin with. <hr></blockquote>
That is a self-centered statement that shifts the blame of the affair from the WS, where it rightfully belongs, to that of the BS. While I think most people here will agree that it takes BOTH spouses to create the conditions in a marriage where an affair becomes a strong possibility, the responsibility of having an affair rests totally in the lap of the WS, which from the tone of yours posts, is something that it doesn’t seem that you understand.

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by feeling1:
I wonder why the resentment is aimed at the other person. Why don't we all take a good look at ourselves and the lying, cheating person we are married to before we make excuses for their behavior.<hr></blockquote><p>I can answer this Feeling1. My H's OW harassed me while I was home sick fighting stage 3 cervical cancer. I had never met, seen, talk to, or done ANYTHING to this woman, She was a complete stranger to me. She wanted my H and I was in the way, he would not leave me for her like he promised. She hated me simply because I was married to the man she wanted.<p>So OW calls me several times and leaves msgs on my answering machine calling me filthy, vile names, Cancerous C___t, etc. She tells me my H gets physicaly sick just at the thought of touching me ... she uses ill gained personal information shared by my H (my hertitage, my income, my medical history) to hurt me in the most profound way ... and I'm at home sick from rad treatments, which SHE KNOWS. I asked my H to tell her to stop calling, does she? NO .. she does it more and makes a point to say that my H threatened her about calling me.<p>So Feeling1, do you think my anger and resentment of this STRANGER is justified. Do you think this woman had a right to do this, do you think I deserved THAT?<p>Jo<p>[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Resilient ]</p>

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The OW in my former marriage went out of her way to ingratiate herself to me. Telling me what a good person she was and how much she believed in marriage and even how I should be grateful for the suffering I was going through as it would make me a better artist. This woman painted a big red bullseye on her forehead by doing this and so I exacted a little petty vengance. Nothing physically harmful but something that made her nuts and me laugh my [censored] off for several days. Yup, I can only imagine mis pollyanna's face when the crap hit the fan, can't reveal what it was but it was rich. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Sorry had she left me alone and not made herself a target I would have let her be.

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I would venture a guess that most BS's on this site have taken a very good look at themselves. Part of the MB philosophy.
There are instances when the BS needs to be accountable and responsible for problems in the marriage that may have led to affairs. But that is NOT always the case. Nor does it justify the actions of the WS by having an affair!

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