Harley has his ten EN's, but acknowledges that some people may have an EN that isn't on the list.

I'm beginning to think that "intelligence" is perhaps my strongest EN, but I'm wondering I'm correct in thinking that. Or, perhaps I'm just confusing what I see as a need for "intelligence" with something else.

Harley talks about the importance of conversation as one of a woman's typical "top five" EN's. It is certainly one of my W's. Harley also makes the point over and over that a couple MUST find common ground and not go off and "do their own thing".

One of the major problems me and my W seem to have is that she has a need for me to provide affection, conversation and companionship, and her idea of this involves me sitting down with her in the evenings and watching television. The problem lies in the fact that when I watch what she likes, I'm bored out of my skull - Anna Nicole Smith on E!, some gawd-awful tearjerker on Lifetime, or silly network sitcoms. Junk food for the mind. My idea of "good" television are documentaries on PBS, Discovery, History, etc. or - of course - the ever popular male choice, sports. Naturally, my W abhors my choice of channels, and feels just as bored as I do watching her shows.

How do I resolve this in the context of MB? Am I *really* supposed to give up what I enjoy in order to not LB and meet my W's EN's?

By the way, my W still has not agreed to read or follow MB, and she will NOT give up her television time in the evenings. It's how she - and most of the western world, apparently - relax after a long day. People here are always telling me "Well, you can follow MB on your own if she won't go along". How do I do that in this instance? If building a healthy marriage means night after night of "junk food", I'm afraid I'm not long for this marriage. It's not working as it is, due partly to this "intelligence gap", and the MB solution seems more like enslavement, having to force myself to watch this crap with her.

sigh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Anyone have any experiences regarding this, or a comment as to where I am going wrong and mistinterpreting or misunderstanding MB? One solution I can think of is to kick the television screen in, but I'd rather come up with a less violent solution than that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thanks.

Why make TV the focus of the relationship? No matter who controls the remote, one will be unhappy.

I kind of think that something similar happened in my marriage. I seem to have similar TV tastes as you, my xW, the same as your W. What I did, was go do something else, like play on the computer. What this came to was not meeting her ENs...not that mine were being met, but that's off topic. This is not the way to solve your dilemma.

I would suggest taking her out for the evening. You don't need to do something fancy...heck, go to Borders or Starbucks for coffee and take books, magazines to read. You can chat and read at the same time and spend a few hours of time getting both conversation and the appropriate mental stimulation that you desire.

Don't watch reality TV, live your own life instead.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hoping4best:
<strong> Why make TV the focus of the relationship? No matter who controls the remote, one will be unhappy.

I would suggest taking her out for the evening. You don't need to do something fancy...heck, go to Borders or Starbucks for coffee and take books, magazines to read. You can chat and read at the same time and spend a few hours of time getting both conversation and the appropriate mental stimulation that you desire.

Don't watch reality TV, live your own life instead. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, television is not "the focus", but as I point out, it IS a big part of the American way of life. Remember that my W is not following MB, and therefore, she falls into the same category as millions of other Americans - she loves her television. Almost like an addiction. Can't miss an episode of this show or that show. I love to read books, but almost by definition, book reading is a singluar pursuit, and therefore does not adhere to MB principles of spousal participation in my eyes. Besides which, my W's idea of reading is Cosmo. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Regarding your other point, my W has a daughter by a previous marriage, and crazy or not, she will not consider a babysitter that isn't immediate family. Despite the fact that we are lucky enough to have parents and siblings who will watch her, it's not feasible on most evenings. We make sure she gets to bed early (she's 6), and so going out is not quite as easy as you'd think.

I suppose I sort of lost my point regarding conversation in my initial post. My W's conversation skills seem to revolve around the television shows, that's my point - not around politics or the news events of the day (which is my preference). So, if I DON'T watch television with her, our conversations are rather limited in my eyes. She doesn't care to talk about what I enjoy, and I can't stand to sit through "junk food tv" just to be able to follow MB and meet her needs. We talk with our daughter during dinner and for a while afterwards, doing homework with her or playing a game or reading, etc., but by 8 or 8:30 she's in bed and my W is watching tv, and I'm off on my own doing my own thing and breaking every MB rule in the book. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the response, but it's just not as easy as it sounds, either from you or from MB. I've always felt MB sounded so perfect, but applying the principles in real life and in the "real world" was just a bit more problematic than Harley makes it out to be. I sometimes think that if the world operated according to Harley, then NOONE would EVER learn a new hobby or acquire a new interest - because his requirement is that BOTH must learn it TOGETHER. The real world situation, to me, is that one person discovers something and shows it to the other who then also latches on.

And I don't mean to be so critical of MB, because I appreciate its merits on certain levels. But I just think it's a lot harder to apply than the site makes it seem when one party is not willing to participate.

I understand that the television is "important" in today's society. I also believe it is one of the reasons that today's society is in the sad state that it is. Rather than learning new things and exploring life, people are locked in front of the TV.

However, you need to realize that this is a hobby of hers at this time. Just a thought...how about if you can watch tv with her, yet provide mental stimulation for yourself by playing cards or something like that with her at the same time.

It soundss like the problem isn't so much that she is not intelligent, but rather that you have different ideas about how you like to spend your time.

The trick is to find a compromise that you can both live with. Maybe, while she's watching "Who wants to sell their last shred of dignity?" You could sit beside her on the couch and read Tolstoy.

Then afterwards, maybe you could do something that you both enjoy.

Slapnuts,

You may want to consider pitching that show to FOX! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You could end up a very rich man.

hi asb--

I struggle with basically the same problem...my H liking a LOT more tv than I do. And sometimes different programs to boot. In his defense, he is pretty good about trying to compromise on tv viewing and will watch things with me that he has absolutely no interest in as long as I return the favor. So we're doing fairly well with POJAing...but....

I like to talk about more than just the tv too. I am very interested in politics, and starting a discussion usually results in him telling me how they're all crooks anyway so why care who's in office.

And books? My H doesn't like to read anything but the newspaper (so at least we have that in common). He's a tv viewer and that's that. He will, however, listen to me chatter about the books I'm reading.

One idea that may help in your situation...watch one of your W's favorite shows with her and try to find all sorts of different things to discuss stemming from that tv show, and include the commercials. Ask her why she likes that show. See if some conversation can stem from the show but branch out from there.

Is your wife open to any compromise at all? Would she agree to sit through one of your shows and then you sit through one of hers? I think the idea about starting conversations about her shows is a good idea, as long as it is not about how "stupid" it is. My H and I usually like different shows too and I would love it if he tried to find out more about what I'm interested in and why. I also agree that it is not necessarily about "stupid" and "intelligent" shows but just difference in the way you two like to unwind. Would she be open to a tv show and then something else the two of you may have in common? And how does/would she respond when you calmly and nicely tell her that you would like to spend some time with her before bedtime doing something that you both would like?

Hi...I'm with Slap in a way. I think you are making a disrespectful judgment by inferring that your wife is not intelligent because of her TV watching hobby.

I found this thread intriguing because my fiance, a good friend of his, and I had a discussion along these lines this weekend. Basically, 5x and I watch all of the same shows (ESPN, Comedy Central, and Fox mostly), but he loves the History channel and I tend to tune out. His friend also likes things like history channel but pointed out that TV was meant for entertainment and to watch it for anything more than that makes you vulnerable to certain deceit controlled by the media. Even the History channel is owned by Disney! I'm very interested in history and such, but I just haven't been drawn in by the seriousness of the History channel and I kind of feel the same way about it that I've grown to feel about watching the news. So much drama all designed to get more viewers and make more money. I just like to watch TV for the pure entertainment of it; I like to read books and search the web for news, education, etc...I feel like I have more control over who and what to believe.
Fortunately, my fiance and I like the same shows while not being hooked on anything...IOW, we wouldn't ever rush home to catch a specific sitcom; we usually turn the TV on while cooking/eating dinner (it's just the 2 of us now) or while working on a different hobby. We rarely just sit and stare at the TV without doing something else slightly productive.

The advice I would give is to find something you both would enjoy that doesn't involve the television. You might need to ween her off of the TV by encouraging her to record the shows she thinks she cannot live without and she can watch them later. Hopefully, she'll prefer whatever fun things you do away from the boob tube and gradually stop recording and watching the shows. Otherwise, do what someone else suggested and bring something to do while she gets her daily brainwashing. I'm sure if you tried (being so much more intelligent than she is), you could come up with plenty of topics to discuss even from the dull, intellectually dead shows she prefers. Ask her how she feels about the amount of money celebrities make after watching "E" with her. Ask her what she thinks about people like Kobe Bryant getting special treatment after possibly committing rape and definitely committing adultery. Actually watch some of the shows with her and get her thinking about the things she's watching...you might find that she has some very good reasons for watching the things she walks. You might find her opinions and perspective are quite intriguing. You might regenerate some of the respect you seem to have misplaced or lost for this woman you committed your life to.
You shouldn't expect her to talk about politics and news (things she apparently doesn't particularly care to talk about) if you're not willing to talk about the things that interest her.

You're the one here looking to improve your marriage. Expect to be the one who makes the first move (and probably 2nd, 3rd, and 4th). Make some sacrifices for your marriage...don't just let it slip away.

Smile

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

yes, it can be considered in light of intelligent conversation. . . however, since you didn't figure this out before marriage, you are now stuck with learning to negotiate.

however, you also need to bring up suggestions as to other activities to do. . .

the other is to find a hobby that you can do while sitting on the couch together while she watches tv.

however, you can negotiate alternate nights of tv preferences. . .

as far as the american culture. . . sitcoms and such are for uncreative people, people that don't have any interests themselves, and must be entertained instead of learning to entertain themselves. . .

wiftty

Is it just the TV shows or are the "differences" there just the "tip of the iceberg" for you two.

Are you basically incompatable in many ways or is it just the TV thing?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">as far as the american culture. . . sitcoms and such are for uncreative people, people that don't have any interests themselves, and must be entertained instead of learning to entertain themselves. . .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, maybe sitcoms were made to allow people to be uncreative for 30 minute increments, but it doesn't mean the people who watch them are uncreative or lacking in intelligence.
I do believe, however, that people must exercise their brains or they will get weak and flabby. Excessive TV watching is not good for you because it lends itself to short attention spans, lack of exercise, lack of intellectual thinking, etc. A creative and intelligent person can watch them in moderation as a way to relax and shouldn't be labeled as dull or stupid.
I say this because I think you are right that sitcoms are designed to let your brain rest, but judging your wife or someone else as uncreative or unintelligent is a disrespectful judgement that can lead you to further problems.

Smile

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

Hi ASB,

I see how her sitting there slack-jawed staring at the idiot box can make the love units plummet. These people make me crazy; hour after hour, I just want to shake them sometimes and scream 'GET A REAL LIFE. GET OF THE COUCH! NO, I don’t CARE what that whore Madonna said last week! ARRRG!'

Basically, she's not meeting your EN's of Conversation or Recreation by obsessing about the TV and the celebs. I know she's not doing MB, but can you schedule time out of the house with her? Take her to a coffee shop or a park, then try to steer the conversation to things you would like to talk about. Even if her subject matter is TV, conversations should be two sided; sometimes we talk about her stuff, sometimes yours. Can you get her out hiking or anything, to give her some new subject matter?

Maybe you can talk to her like a SOAP Opera: Darling, I must speak with you.... (wait) I'm feeling.... lost.... unconnected.... I fear.... I fear our love.... our love.... has lost its way.... I feel you do not know me... what is in my heart... I feel.... vulnerable!

You got to get her attention on this (before someone else catches YOUR attention...).

Unfortunately, real Intelligence doesn’t change much, and like wiffty implied, her intelligence probably hasnt changed much since marriage... (Was she REALLY cute when you married her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> just wondering?)....

Keep trying! - Dru

<small>[ February 09, 2005, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: hanora ]</small>

Dru - that was hilarious! Does this also include my enjoyment of "Law and Order"?

My H & I were the same. We watched hours of stupid shows neither one of us really enjoyed & went to bed each night thinking what a terrible world we live in. Our communication was on its last leg & we barely noticed. When we woke up to reality we realized we have to quit cold turkey. We have watched perhaps two hours of Tv since May 2003. We do occasionally watch DVD's that we rent. It gives us a chance to cuddle & have a drink. We have the daily news emailed to us so as not to use "staying in touch" as an excuse. We are trying to create new hobbies togeather such as learning to dance to latin music through instructional dvd's at home We date 1 to 2x per week. (We have 3 children 6,3 &1) I know that your wife is not a willing participant to any changes to her Tv. Is there any chance that she would enjoy other things? Can you not try to wean her off the junk food slowly perhaps you agreeing to her watching whatever she wants 3 nights but doing what you may both enjoy the other nights? what did you enjoy doing before marriage. Beyond that I would break the Tv before it breaks your marriage.

Hi HPK,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does this also include my enjoyment of "Law and Order"?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not unless you give up a lovely Saturday with your family to watch the L&O Marathon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I watch lot more TV than I'd normally admit to (I LOVE TIVO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), but I know it's place (late at night, when I cant sleep!). It ranks WELL below live people and events. And I'd worry people would think I was ditzy if all I talked about was TV. (Just dont get me going on South Park or The Simpsons... I can quote entire episodes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

I watch a show, then turn off the tube. My exH would leave it on constantly, not watching anything, specifically. Drove me nuts. He missed his sisters bday party for a show. I did eventually leave him, this was a pretty big factor.

He gave up meeting my EN's of RC and Conv for his beloved TV, so ASB... I know this can be destructive. Good luck - Dru

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Just dont get me going on South Park or The Simpsons... I can quote entire episodes ). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was scared to admit that myself. I thought I'd be all alone on these boards as a South park and Simpsons regular viewer. A new Simpsons episode is pretty much the only thing we'd rush home for...that or we might record it.
Hey Dru...we have something in common! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Smile

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hey Dru...we have something in common!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well I'll be a teenage girl backstage at an Aerosmith concert! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

We're both from the South, too, now living in CA... Wonders never cease! Take care - Dru

<small>[ January 26, 2004, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

We like the Simpsons too, have the first 3 seasons on DVD sets.

asb3pe,

You'll have to excuse my quirked eyebrow! It's set on permanent quirk, any time I hear someone indicate that it takes more intelligence to watch documentaries, discovery, or the history channel than it does to watch the every day sitcom version of hilarity. Or for that matter a bunch of grown up men chasing an odd shaped ball back and forth on a field.

I'm not putting down TV watchin in any form. I will however tell you that my ex could sit in a room with the TV on and completely ignore any conversation or activity in the room and when he walked out of the room never have a clue what was on the tube he was watching - usually a documentary. Three days later he could watch the same documentary and proceed to tell me how he'd never seen it before - even when he'd watched it repeatedly over the past several weeks. The same man would read a newspaper from cover to cover and argue how stupid the government was behaving over some indescression that has been out of the news for at least a decade.

Factoring in 'intelligence' in a discussion relating the stupidity of watching a sitcom for thirty minutes of non-life altering silliness over some narrated version of history is something akin to debating the hedonistic mind blowing rock music with cheating hearted marriage breaking country music. The point is mute at best. Your choice is as good as mine and visa versa. It's down to an ISTJ like WIFTTY enjoying documentaries and thinking sitcoms are silly or an ENFP like me thinking sitcoms relax me and documentaries are off the wall bordom.

Personally I think boob tube entertainment is about the most debilitating form of 'entertainment' there is available anywhere in any form on planet earth. Who needs someone else to tell them how to understand history, or what to laugh at. READ a book - learn something from the archives of history and maybe visit a library. Better yet, get off your potato butt and make some history yourself, while you're at it - laugh a little. It'll keep your organs greased up for activity later in the bedroom!

Never said my opinion was humble!!!

Jan

Jan - I personally think boob entertainment is very fulfilling!!! Oh wait - you said boob "tube" entertainment - sorry!

ah, Jan,

never ever associate me with ISTJ ness. . .
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

INTP please. . . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

and these are only opinions, like yours
if you want facts, please consult your therapist

wiftty

and notice i never posted relating to intelligence, but related to self creativity . . .

I'm going to have to go with sj trouble on this one...

Is your wife actually UNINTELLIGENT???? Or do you simply have different preferences in TV viewing?

Also what does she do during the day?

Sometimes A-MUSE-MENT ( Not thinking) at the end of a day can be rewarding.

Me personally, I enjoy a balance of exercise outdoors and at the gym, playing with my kids, cooking, cleaning, ( and sex) and watching both educational and non-educational TV as part of my daily routine.

How many hours of TV does she watcha day? Seriously?

Yes, Intelligence in a mate seems life a valid need, but I don't know how much it actually has to do with TV viewing.

asb3pe:
Let me be clear here. I despise most of the programming on T.V. I hate to be marketed to. I will occasionally watch something on PBS. The programming isn’t necessarily better than other stations . . . it just doesn’t have commercials. I don’t have cable . . . I won’t pay to be forced to watch commercials and Tivo just costs too much in my opinion. My wife adores T.V. Her I.Q. is 140+, not dumb at all. She likes the insipid comedies, the melodramic COP/Doctor/Lawyer/whatever shows. She will watch The Mole, Survivor, etc. Last night she was watching My Big Fat Idiot whatever Fiancé. I can’t stand that stuff. Her desire to watch this stuff, and my stubborn refusal to be around it, used to cause all sorts of problems in our relationship. It got to the point that I wouldn’t even sit on the same floor of the house when the T.V. was on.

How did I survive it? Compromise. If/when my wife wishes my company, she turns off the T.V. and I join her for the evening. If she had a bad day at work, and just wants to veg. I find somewhere else to be. I started woodworking and I don’t have to have too much of an excuse to go to the basement and butcher some boards.

I too love to read. I can’t read with the T.V. on. This appears to be a point of impasse. The solution I found is to wear external earmuffs when she has the T.V. on, you know the ones you use when working around power tools. She can watch her shows, I can be in the same room and read; everyone is happy. I do look like a dork, but oh well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by baba2:
<strong> Is it just the TV shows or are the "differences" there just the "tip of the iceberg" for you two.

Are you basically incompatable in many ways or is it just the TV thing? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As you (and others) have surmised, this issue is just the tip. Apologies to all if I don't respond personally to each post here - the thread has gotten away from me somewhat as I seem to have hit a common nerve. Not necessarily a bad thing for discussion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't think I've gotten my whole point across on this, so if you don't mind I'll try to expand a little bit. Those that contend I've made a disrespectful judgement of my W are, I suppose, correct on that. I guess when I let my emotions take hold, this sort of thing happens.

This whole topic got started because I spent a good deal of Sunday listening to Bill Harley via the "Marriage Talk Radio" page on the site here while I was doing some side work at home. I felt so good about listening that when my W walked into the room I didn't bother to turn it off. Usually I do, because I know her reaction. Well, I got the same reaction this time... She looked at me and asked, "What are you listening to?" with that look on her face that I know so well - half smile, half smirk, total put-down. "Marriage Talk Radio", I said. She responded, "You're crazy." Huh? Crazy? "Why?" I asked. "I don't know. C'mon, dinner's ready", and she left the room. So I let it slide, as I don't like to talk about our troubles in front of my stepdaughter, and I especially don't like ruining an otherwise peaceful dinner.

Later, I confronted her (gently) as she walked into the room to give me a hug. I recently was able to at least SHOW her the MB notebook I had printed out (most of the pages), and explained some of the concepts to her. This was a big step, but I didn't hardly get a reaction out of her (hey, no reaction is an improvement over a negative one). So I asked her, "Why do you think I'm crazy to be trying to work on our marriage? What's so crazy about wanting to work things out between us?" She just mumbled another "I don't know", but suddenly the whole mood changed. She because cold and distant, the hug ended, and I could see her face and body language go from bright and cheery to dark and depressing. She went in and brushed her teeth and came out and said "I have to go to bed." I said "Ok, good night hon", but after a minute I followed her into the bedroom and sat down next to her. I explained things again, that even though I was the betrayer, and even though I am the one who needs to work on my issues, we BOTH need to work on this marriage in order for it to be restored and to work again. She shook her head yes, and I went back to my work.

The next morning when we awoke, her mood was still "different", and so I asked her if I had done or said something last night to change the mood between us, which had recently taken a turn for the better. "No", she replied. "My mood hasn't changed." Hmmm. Could've fooled me.

So where did my intelligence comment come from? Well, you can probably tell I am more of the "intellectual" sort of person - a rational INTP on the Keirsey Temperment Profile - an "architect". Funny enough, my job is as a civil engineer, so my life is fairly well grounded I suppose. I am where I should be in life to make myself happy. I am a logical, deliberate and unspontaneous person. My W, on the other hand, seems to be the complete opposite of me, probable an ESFJ. Where I try to analyze and rationalize, she bases everything on "feelings". Where I am introverted and not all that sociable, she is extroverted and lives for her social life. I consider my W, disrespectful or not, to be an anti-intellectual, for lack of a better term. Where I identify a problem in myself and then tirelessly research and read and talk to others about the cause, effect and solution to the problem, my W just shrugs her shoulders and moves on, or (horrors!) just makes a snap decision and continues on. It's as if she can't be bothered to investigate and analyze, and therefore I see her reaction as "unintelligent", which I realize is not exactly fair to her. The television comment of mine was the most common area of our lives where I see such a huge difference, but I guess I agree that this is not an indication of a lack of intelligence on the part of my W.

So the whole issue here revolves around our marital problems (which stem from both of us but were exacerbated by my infidelity via the internet - no physical contact but an EA, I suppose), and my reaction to her not being willing to take the same steps I wish to take (following the MB concepts). I know it's not fair to my W, and I know she has to make up her own mind as to how to deal with these issues of ours. My need and desire - to begin working on our problems in MY way, or even in ANY way - is a selfish thing. I see that now through this thread and other discussions I have had.

Finally, me and my W are going to separate and see if that helps us. I'm not sure it is going to, but my W had been adamant about it. Since I did offer to "go away" and to work on my issues through counseling, I feel as if I need to live up to my word now despite many people here implying that separating is potentially a mistake, and possibly a fatal one. So be it. The apartment is mine, and this weekend I move out. No computer, so I'm not sure how often I will be able to come here. Part of my problem is addiction to various things, and the computer is definitely one of those things. I'll see how that goes. I am going to try and fill my time in the evenings with other more healthy pursuits, such as exercising, or perhaps getting a second job to pay for the apartment. Finances have always been an issue with us as well - "logical" me has always wanted to budget while my W has always just "winged it" and protected her own income, probably due to unresolved issues from her first marriage which went sour and in which her Ex-H took financial advantage of her.

I think you can tell this situation is a lot more complex than I first let on, but I see most of the points here about me making a disrespectful judgement of my W, and I do appreciate the time people have taken to respond and contribute suggestions. I enjoy the site here, as I think there are a lot of great people with a lot of great ideas and helpful experiences that they are willing to share. I hope you have something else to add - I know I've written a lot here. Best wishes everyone!

ESFJ,

you described my X very well, and as an INTP, you understand the problems that i ran into also. . .

she needs some IC, and will never get past her own fears without the work, but she will never agree to the work. . .

sorry to hear of your situation. . .

wiftty

Al,

here is my suggestion, after being in your shoes. . .

1) get ALL your intellectual EN at work. . . ALL of it. . .

2) learn to relax with your W. I did the same pursuits as you, and my X was like your W. But an ESFJ's thinking is the LEAST developed skill. they are warm and friendly, but not intellectual. . .

3) they are pattern people, they have patterns and routines. . . however, they also live in the past, since they can't see the future or relationships very well. They also tend ot be a bit manipulative. . .

so my advice is to try to stay, do nothing but housework if you can't watch tv, and try to meet your wife on her needs. . ., and i think you will find that you will be a bit more balanced. . . she will bring balance to you, you just can't bring any balance to her. . .

4) the MB stuff will not be well received, and your mouth gets you in trouble. shut up about MB, shut up about what you are doing, and learn to live the MB way, forget educating her, you can't and she will resent you for trying as soon as you are apparently doing this. . .

good luck. . .

but this is a salvagable position. . .

wiffty

I would like to respond in defense of the worlds ESFJs. I am an INTJ and my wife is an ESFJ. In general I agree that ESFJ have a difficult time with reason and logic, that does not mean they lack intelligence. My wife is quite intelligent; she just doesn't think and process information the same way as I do. The ESFJs in your life do not either. My wife has to make lots of decisions every day. She hasn't the time to research and analyze each of these, or nothing would get done. She is on the other hand very productive, relies on advice of those she trusts and does a great job. I can not help but hear a tone of condescension in the notes concerning the ESFJs and I can't help but think this is part of the problem. INTJs or INTPs may be prone to certain narcissistic tendencies and I wonder how much respect you are sharing with your ESFJs. For INTJs and INTPs no one ever seems to measure up.