Been having some really rough days lately...<BR>Regular life stresses are at an all time high and W is into a new phase, I guess, in her reation to my betrayal...<BR>I promised myself early in this recovery journey that I would be completely selfless... accept any 'lovebusting' (didn't have a handy term for it at the time) with a straight back, knowing that W should have the opportunity to get some of her pain off her chest... Dylan has been really incredible about all this, really, considering the pain that I have caused her. <BR>Lately though, I can't shake the feeling that something is 'up'. Something has shifted, it seems and for some reason that I can't explain or even really understand, I feel like she's going to leave me.<BR>I've asked her about this and she's denied it and being the most truthful person I know, I kinda have to believer her, but still...<BR>She has started talking again about going by OW's workplace to demand an apology or rant or whatever. I wish I never had to hear that b*t*ch's name again. The LAST thing I want is for more contact. Why does it seem like we are going backwards?<BR>I still haven't apologized for my betrayal. She knows how truly sorry I am, but I still cannot ask her forgiveness. Not only do I feel like she is not ready to give it, but I am not either. Is that foolish? I laugh at people who glibbly announce that they have 'no regrets'. I don't have many, but the ones I do have are doozies, and this one is top of the list. Anyway, I'm nowhere near forgiveness and can't justify a meek, 'sorry Honey." Sorry is just to weak a word.<P>Anyway it feels like my stregnth to deal with this and face it is sapped right out. Not a day goes by that we don't spend at least a couple of hours talking about this. Dylan is NOT lovebusting, but yes there are harsh realities to face and I just feel like crawling into a corner and crying myself to sleep. Wake me up if the world hasn't Y2K'd itself out of existence by, say, March.<P>Anyway, I could sure use some prayers. Not to end my pain, sure as heck I'm not ready for that yet, but just to give me the stregnth to deal with life for another day. I'll worry about tommorrow tommorrow. 'Probly be fine after a good night's sleep. Feels like I'll never be fine again. How could I have done this!?!?!?!?!?<P>Dylan seems to be going through an 'anger' phase lately. Her anger is directed mostly towards OW but her comments still sting.<P>I promised myself and her that I would deal with this... that she should feel free to get her anger and pain out. I can appreciate the 'no lovebusting' concept, but don't feel that I should be spared her pain or anger. I have no right to ask to be excused from that. I guess I view it as part of the price of healing... <P>I've been pretty good about it, so far. I have a really hard time facing her when she is 'upset' or venting and generally my eyes are downcast and my face goes all stony, but I endure, because since I can't go back and undo all the hurt I've caused, it's all I can do.<P>I'm just having a really really tough time of this today. <P>I'm sorry about all this whining. I really have no right to feel sorry for myself. I probably just need a good kick in the a$$, or maybe in the head.<P>deut<p>[This message has been edited by Soulloss' exH (edited December 05, 1999).]

Hi, SX.. Sorry you're feeling so bad.<P>Of course, you already know that she's going throught the stages that she HAS to go through. You are a wonderful person by trying to help her. I know that's it's terribly painful for you as well.<P>I can sorta understand her anger w/ ow. You have recommitted to her and you're working hard. Besides, she loves you, no matter what. <P>But OW, now she ALSO had a hand in Dylan's pain. Dylan is GOING to be angry with her.<P>But, she's working through this, with your help. You both need more time. To heal. <P>The pain will fade, for both of you, but it does take time. Just be strong and hang in there. <P>And Deut, it's time to start forgiving yourself. And, even though you don't believe she's ready, apologizing to Dylan and hearing her forgiveness could help BOTH of you. If you can't say it, then put it in a letter. Forgiveness is important. The first step to healing. <P>You're doing great. I'm sorry for your pain right now, but I KNOW it is only a step for the relationship that BOTH of you are dreaming of.<P>Prayers and hugs coming for both of you.<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{Dylan and Deut}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Lori

I was going to answer more or less in the same lines as lori, but she beat me to it <BR>DO listen to her, it makes sense.<BR>Positive thoughts going your way.<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I sure as heck don't feel like a wonderful person right now... not just for the stupid affair, but mostly for my frustration today. Dylan sure as heck doesn't deserve that...<P>As for the forgiveness thing, I think I am many lightyears away from that... I wouldn't be able to write a letter long enough to properly ask her forgiveness and there aren't enough words anyways.... Not even sure at this point that I would hear the words from her... I know she loves me, but this is just so BIG <P>My official 'plan' is to ask her forgiveness by becoming the kind of man she deserves. This is one instance where I feel that words just won't do, if you know what I mean. I was going to earn her forgiveness by being patient with her recovery... not get frustrated and slip into depression... <P>As for the OW, when Dylan rants on about her, how can I not take it onto myself? OW, b*t*ch that she is, still never 'betrayed' anybody or lied to a spouse... I did, and ultimately, I am the the one who did the most horrible thing. Not to excuse OW, she connived and made (in hindsight) definite effort to ruin this marriage despite the fact that she knew I wanted it to work... but still, the fact remains that it was I who cheated... <BR>I feel like screaming... (shhh, kids are asleep)<BR>deut<BR>thanks for your replies.. do you have the coffee on, or are you from Australia? <BR>(see, I feel a little better already)<p>[This message has been edited by Soulloss' exH (edited December 05, 1999).]

SX,<P>I can agree with Lori and Kat.<BR>When I ask for someones forgiveness I usualy don't expect it. I do it for me. If I'm making ammends and am remorseful I can seek forgiveness and know I did my part, to clear my concience.<P>Hope I helped,<BR>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

good evening Bill,<BR>thanks for your reply... <BR>you wrote:<BR>"I do it for me. If I'm making ammends and am remorseful I can seek forgiveness and know I did my part, to clear my concience."<BR>I know what you mean, and at this point I'd do just about anything to clear my conscience, or at the very least forget about the whole kit and kaboodle for a few hours. Unfortunately, I don't drink and my conscience is nowhere near ready to be cleared, if you know what I mean. <BR>This is so screwed. I've been cheated on, and this is not the first time I've cheated on a girlfriend/wife. I've had no probs forgiving or asking pardon in the past, but this time, with Dylan, I feel so so so so so crappy.<BR>I think, (this might sound strange) that if I, right now, were to ask forgiveness and recieve it, it would kill me.<BR>hmmm.<BR>Deut

SX,<P>If thats the case put the bat down for awhile. Do you believe in God?<P>This forum, counceling and loving your wife can restore your sanity, get in God's will, inventory yourself, find your character defects, we all have them, get God's help to remove them, then try to make ammends. I can't make ammends until I get right with God then myself. Thats what I meant by doing it for me.<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Soulloss' exH -- Forgiving me for intruding on your thread.<P>I read this and then went on to another thread, but found myself drawn back here. I can definitely see the remorse in oyur words Duet. I am sure that when Dylan reads this it will touch her heart as much as it has mine, and I am sure others will feel the same way.<P>My W has apologized many times for her betrayal, and I have forgiven her as I am sure that Dylan has forgiven you.<P>You are showing yourself to be a very good man. You seem to have gift with words, and I can not help but feel just a little jealous of Dylan. . .I have read your threads, as well as Dylans, but have not really had the right words for you guys, so I have kept quiet until now.<P>This thread is one of the most heartfelt apologies I have ever seen. I wish my W was as good with words as you are. Dylan is a very lucky lady.<P>Hugs and prayers to both of you.<P>God Bless

Hi<BR>I wanted to comment on your words<BR>"As for the OW, when Dylan rants on about her, how can I not take it onto myself? OW,<BR>b*t*ch that she is, still never 'betrayed' anybody or lied to a spouse... I did, and<BR>ultimately, I am the the one who did the most horrible thing"<P>I can fully understand what youre saying and I dont know if this helps but my situation was very similar to yours except the OW was one of my friends. <BR>All the times I ranted and raved against the OW it was exacetly that.......against the Ow (not my H) at the time so if its at all possible try and see that your wife has her issues against this woman as well and you dont have to take on that ranting as directly against you ok. <BR>Hard I know!<BR>

You guys are all so great. As for being good with words, yeah, I can be... sometimes it's a huge drawback... (way way way better with written words than spoken- when writing, I have a chance to think a little, when speaking I get confused and emotions seem to tongue tie me)<BR>As for the God thing, well that's a weird one. I as raised Christian, but not overly. Lost God in my teens, trying to find him/her again... but really find, if you get my meaning... that's a huge long story.<BR>As for Dylan being a very lucky lady... well, frankly not so far... I am good to her, very kind, but been pretty screwed since mom died 3 years ago... certainly this summer wasn't very lucky for her or us, and not just because of the affair, but I have vowed to commit my life to making her the luckiest woman possible. I guess that is the only 'apology' I think would be good enough.<BR>I don't beat myself up over what I have done... I can't change it (oh, I wish) but still really disappointed in myself. oh boy.<BR>Thanks again for you heartfelt replies... I do feel better... a good nights sleep will help.<BR>As for your wife, Emptyshell, words are just that... words. I can wax eloquent behind the keyboard, but put me face to face with my hurting Love and I choke right up. Actions I believe are what's important... for all, betrayers and betrayed alike. I can't believe the stregnth of character I see on this board... <BR>They say that if something doesn't kill you it makes you stronger. That's pretty hokey and if anybody else tells me that it's a 'learning experience' I may just blow a gasket. lol. Still, it's true and I know that I will come out of this a WAY different person... one that I can be proud of.<BR>Again you guys are great! Thanks.<BR>In a way I kind of regret starting this thread (and I welcome all with deep thanks for your concern) because tommorrow Dylan will read this and if I know her, she'll start to bottle those feelings to try and save me from my own pain... which I definately don't want. <BR>Anyhoo, goodnight all, and thanks again for you support...<BR>Deut

Hey Deut,<P>Just a quick word, because we're both in the same hap-hap-happy place tonight, if you can call it tonight where I am: I believe they call this "morning"...<P>I really must find my life again!<P>Yes, I know what you mean about starting a thread. As you know, I did the same and my H will read it and maybe it will be just the thing to make him leave me once and for all. I hope not, but then again, I don't care, yes, I do, no, I don't... you see my problem.<P>Dylan, if you read this, remember that we betrayers (and I'm betrayed too! double blech) sometimes just need to vent in a safe place, and don't want to hurt our spouses worse than we have already. <P>Just wanted to add my support and well-wishes!<P>------------------<BR>The good life is a process, not a state of being. It is a direction, not a destination.<BR>-Carl Rogers<P>

Souless-<BR>I admire your honesty about your guilt. I am the betrayed spouse and every so often I get into a mood where I feel probally simular to what your W if probally feelng too. And my H seems to feel the same way as you say that you feel.<P>All I can do is tell you what I think based on my own experience.<P>For me... Although my H has apologized and stated how much he regrets it, and he may not think of her at all-- I still do.<P>I still feel the insecurities and the not so sure that I'm worth having in his eyes question. Am I really what he wants? Does he ever miss her? Fearing another revelation that may tear my heart out. <P>Sure I know that it being brought up all the time is a real pain and I am guilty of it too but I think what I need the most at tha moment is reassurance that I am loved and wanted and she is not, preferably that she is hated. <P>Also, my H has not talked about her much and here is this women who I would think ws so great because she must have been and I felt to terrible, boring and unexciting; that I wanted to hear that she was not all that in this way or another. I wanted to hear my H tell me iwas better than see was because...<P>I know that is alot to ask but my point is that she needs reassurance that she is the one that you truly love and want!!! <P>As far as an apology... I can sympathize with your feelings of not being able to forgive yourselve and not feeling like that you can ask for your forgiveness. But it sounds as if to me that you really are sorry and she needs to know, see and feel how sorry you are. That will be really good for her own reassurance. <P>Open up to her, you can do it here but you really need to do it there. She needs to hear what is in your heart, you can't just rely on what you think she knows because if she is like me, she hopes and she prays but she really doesn't really know anymore.<P>Whenever, she gets upset or starts feeling a little insecure be her friend and her H, reassure her, tell her again that she has no need to be upset anymore that today should be a happy day and not a sad one. You may have to say it over and over for a while but let her feel her pain and comfort her when she does.<P>If you can be strong and comfort and reassure her instead of getting upset it will help her feel less insecure. Any distance she feels will only add to any fears she has. She may already have the fear that you miss her and the contact that she is considering may be for reassurance from her that the affair is not continuing or starting again.<P>But don't wait to apologize properally to her until you can forgive yourself, you need to start doing things together instead of on your own. Share your heart with her, tell her how you feel sorry but unworthy of her forgivness at the same time.<P>I hope this helps.<BR>Genie

Holy toledo, Genie....<BR>Thank you soooo much!<BR>I think you just may have something there...<BR>I have to bring my boy to Church now, but you are making some serious sense! Which is pretty good considering I the digital clock is still a red blur (way tired) and makes less sense that what you just wrote.<BR>ttfn<BR>Deut

Soullos exH, just one idea...<P>I understand perfectly about writen words agains speaking, and that's why many times I just wrote long notes to my H, explaining various things like how I was realy feeling, or my hopes, or just to tell him how much I wanted our marriage to work. Writing those things instead of saying them helped in many ways, it would make more sense because I could think calmly about what I wanted to say, it would also help diffuse any anger or negative feelings since he couldn't interrupt what I was saying with angry remarks - whatever he wanted to say would have to wait until he was finished reading and by then, maybe it didn't seem that important that he said it -and since my H was very deffensive whenever we talked, it would allow me to say things in a kind of "neutral" ground. <BR>I didn't even give him many of those notes - at least not then - but writing the things down always had a calming effect on me. I just kept them together with my journal, and sometimes I would read them back and could find many things where we were improving, that was positive too.<P>Maybe you can try writing to your w too?<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

I can't even begin to reply......

Hi Souloss ExH-<P>First of all------since your guys story and mine and H seem to have so many similarities let me say a thing or two (or more if I forget I am not writing a darn book). Let's see, your affair ws 3 months lasting? Then I suggest you give Dylan at least 6 months to even begin to heal. I truly believe she has earned double the time your affair lasted. I just made it past the 6 month part myself and I must say I can use a bit longer. I still love my H and I know Dylan still loves you. But have you even began to think about how it hurts to be betrayed? I mean really-just imagine this whole situation in reverse. Would you be willing to cast it all behind you and move ahead happy and all? It isn't that easy. I would give anything to forget the whole nightmare but it doesn't go away. In fact I think if anything it gets worse (aren't I a blast of reality).<BR>May I make a suggestion? In trying to be the man Dylan wants you know that you must also be the man you need to be in order for you to be YOU. My H decided that he was so afraid of losing me that he went way overboard in trying to be what I had always wanted him to be-there for me. It almsot smothered me to death. And-it wasn't him. I didn't want him hanging on me all day long-I jsut wanted time to talk when I needed that time, time to be held when I felt the need to be held. If you go all out trying to be THE MAN she will surely see it as a birbery of sort. Not that you don't mean well but she knows you as you have been since she first met you. You can't change all of a sudden. I would suggest you just try and be her best friend. And most of all-be honest. When and if she finds out details that you have avoided telling her for fear of hurting her more or her leaving you I can gaurantee it will be worse than what you are dealing with now. The biggest hurt for me was three months after the fact finding out more details that my H "forgot"or "blocked out" or withheld to "spare me the hurt". The trust thing starts now!!!!! And-sorry-but you got yourself in this fine mess and now you have to get yourself out-just do it the right way. <P>I will pray for you!! I would love nothing more than for you two to be able to work this out and move forward-especially for that little one of yours. But when you think it is hard for you to face the day you have got to remember how it must be for her. We that have been betrayed can't ever understand the reason why it ever had to happen. I think the "WHY" is the worst part of the whole thing.<P>Best of luck for always-----------<P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<BR>"Loyalty Is A Two Way Street"<BR>

I would very much like to curl up and die now, that is how I have been feeling these past few days of which you speak.<P>I WOULD LIKE TO CURL UP AND DIE.<P>actually, I would like it if SHE would curl up and die....then I could go to the bahamas ...you know, .......to mourn.....in a bikini....preferably the one she kept putting on to impress you.......oh, that's right, oops it wouldn't fit....i am unfortunately not built like dolly parton.....mine are REAL!!!!! then I would like tall, tanned, oiled cabana boys who all look like Antonio Banderas (in Desperado) to bring me fruity drinks with umbrellas in pineapples.....and I would love to fall alseep to the sound of surf and sand, and wake up and have my life to live over....<P><BR>this has nothing to do with your post, I know, <P><BR>Dylan.

p.s.:<P>I was cleaning the kitchen today, and I must say that I am tired of finding things.....like I really need to keep finding photos of this vapid,brainless woman's front walkway and door (with address) all over my g$#^^&mned house.<P>Dylan

Dylan -- Come on!!! Wouldn't you like to have a tanned, oiled "Deut" bringing you those drinks? He's really expressed himself well here and you know that because you've replied to his post. Please separate the anger you have toward OW and Deut and give him a chance. He really wants it, you see?? What if you two took off on a short holiday? Maybe to the Bahamas? Maybe just to the nearest Holiday Inn..Just the two of you away from the house so you can concentrate on each other....

Heartache,<BR>thank you for the wake-up-and-smell-the-coffee post! I think I really needed that. Last night I kind of fell into self-pity mode and while I understand it and am willing to cut myself some slack now and again and allow myself to wallow, I was carrying it around with me all day and almost did it again tonight.<BR>You are so right!<BR>In fact, we had talked about an 8 month probation or healing time... geez it sounds so ridiculous when you try and label it... anyway, the point is I don't expect her to just forget about it and move on. Not in the least. I have been very badly stung before in this manner. I was quite young (17) and living with an older woman (27) and her child (3) and she ended up having an affair and leaving me for the guy. For about a month, she flaunted it right under my nose, having me watch her child while she went out to do the nasty, coming home either really really late or not at all... so I know all about pain. (child is thirteen now, I still see him on occaision as I am friends with his dad - hey, we had a lot in common, lol) <BR>I know we'd all love to just forget this ever happened and put it all behind us... I know how impossible that is and how to even try would just make things worse, that's not what I was puling about. I made a commitment to be strong, knowing that there was a lot of hurt, anger, resentment, mistrust, and a myriad of other turbulent emotions to go through. I cause all this pain with my actions and am determined to face the consequences 'like a man' if you'll excuse the out-dated inaccurate expression.<BR>As for being someone other than me, that won't happen. Believe it or not, despite my idiotic actions this summer I am, in some respects quite grounded. I just think that I, in no way, shape, or form have been living up to my potential. In a way that's what started this whole thing. My being less than I could have been led Dylan to fall out of love with me which left me empty and needy and intolerably weak, etc... there's a pretty viscious cirlce there which desperately needs to be broken.<BR>I'm not trying to act out of character, just aiming towards improving myself from the inside out.<BR>you wrote:<P><<<When and if she finds out details that you have avoided telling her for fear of hurting her more or her leaving you I can gaurantee it will be worse than what you are dealing with now. The biggest hurt for me was three months after the fact finding out more details that my H "forgot"or "blocked out" or withheld to "spare me the hurt".>>><P>When I first spilled the beans, I gave her the saddest excuse for a b*llsh*t story you could ever hope to hear, for all the reasons listed above. OW blew my boat out of the water a few days later with a nasty email. (she apparently had a big problem with being dumped for my wife, lol) After that I came clean, trying to spare her the details at first, but we kept talking and she gotten the truth. Dylan is big on the 'details' and believe me there are things I told her that she's probably wishing she didn't know. I had 'blocked' a lot of it out... (for example I can't remember the first time... rouhgly when yes, but exactly when and how? Long gone.) I got to a point where I didn't try to avoid hurting her... not out of spite or meanness, but because she truly wanted to know and being honest about it was the first step in dealing with my crippling shame and making amends to the woman I love. All that's left now are stupid little details that just pop into my head. I tell Dylan as they come... (read her post: "AAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH")<P>You also wrote:<BR><<< But when you think it is hard for you to face the day you have got to remember how it must be for her.>>><P>This is never far from my mind, believe me. It is the well from which all my pain and shame spring. It's a deep well, which is kind of reassuring, considering that this summer I felt like I must have had no soul or something to be able to come home and lie to the one I love. <P>Heartpain, thanks for the visual... <BR>Between you and and Heartache, I think I can put my happy face back on... see? and get back to dealing with this and being relatively supportive, which is what Dylan deserves, not some puling pug.<P>You guys are all 'da bomb', as my snowboarding brother likes to say. (I'm pretty sure it's a compliment.)<P>Thanks for the sympathy and also the wake-up call. (I think I needed both)<BR>Deut<P>PS. Hon, if you find any more pictures of work I did at her place, feel free to tear them into itty-bitty bits, light them on fire, bury them, then pee on the spot where you dug the hole. And sorry for my moroseness the last couple of days.

S and SXH:<P>You both sound like you know what you want and working at getting there. There are always going to be bumpy days and curves in the road you may even get flipped around and rolled upside down a few times. They wouldn't call it a rollercoaster ride if wasn't like that.<P>My prayer for you both is that you will be assured of each other's resolve in this rebuilding effort and that God's strength and grace will carry you through.<P>Try and spend some time doing something new and exciting. Make an effort NOT to talk about the recent events in your marriage while you are doing this. Just BE together and live for THAT moment. <P>Take care and God bless <P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole<P><BR>

Soulless Ex-H,<P>Just a quick comment. You said that rather than apologize to your W and ask forgiveness you will act in the manner required to show her that you are remorseful. If I have learned anything reading posts here is that women need to HEAR from their H at least as much as the need to see a new H. <P>If we as males do one thing that really gets to W's, it is assuming that doing the right thing means we don't have to say the right thing. It really takes both. Men watch other men's actions and make decisions, women seem to need more. It is called communication.<P>If you feel like you want to apologize and ask forgiveness, then do it. Then back it up with actions.<P>Just some free advice which may be worth what you are paying for it. I hope not though.<P>God Bless You and Your Family

okaaaaaay.....<P>I am going to get soooooo flamed, I'm sure.<P>My wanting to go to OW's workplace (she owns her own Lee press on nails place) to demand apology or rant has to do with the fact that she threatened you, dear......how dare she threaten my H with her crap about "if she ever finds out you did this (affair) again, especially with any of her clients or friends that she would make you sorrier than you were now for ever meeting her"...she then went on to say don't f$^k with her....too late.....you already did...hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah<P>I am obviously hysterical.<P>how dare she threaten you. she should be threatened.....right in front of all her rich clients...their husbands are the ones that should be protected.....god forbid ms. lesbian decide she wants to be a meat-eater again.......people should know that she eats and spits out husbands and families....that her "live for the moment" and her general disrespectful attitude could destroy more families....why the h^ll should these poor woman not know that this one, who they trust with their secrets is actually a pariah with no regard for morals or family values....that this witch doesn't care if kids and lives together are involved....damn right I want to go there and tell her not to threaten you as she is the one that needs to be warned off....and yes, in front of all.<P><BR>As for crawling into a corner and crying yourself to sleep, well, come on in, join me in mine where I have cried myself to sleep for the past week.....it's not as if you come upstairs anymore with me.......GAME until 4am, or posting here.....I am exhausted from staying up until 3 just to be near you...<P>your face gets stony, your arms cross over your chest, and you won't even look at me....you sit while I try to talk honestly with you and the only feeling I get from you is that you are pissed off.....once again, here we go.....why can't she just stop....that is the feeling I get from you...my level of frustration goes up about 200%, and I no longer feel like talking....what is the point...I will not discuss this with someone who is defensive about the wrong he committed..... <P>I am still waiting for the whole story....from start to finish.....where is the accounting? you can stay up until 4 to play computer games, but the 1 request I made to have this done with, to have some understanding, is still, 10 weeks later......in limbo...I still have the version 1 lies mingling with th eversion 2 lies....how many versions are there? could I have the final one? I need to know what happened...from day 1....not gory details.....I have enough of those from the both of you.....but the general story...I am still waiting.....bits and pieces will drive me to an early heart attack....<P>of course you are allowed to feel sorry for yourself..you have done a terible thing and now have to look at the consequences in the face everyday....you too, will have good and bad days....and I hope I can be there for you for both...but if on my bad days you just shut down, what message is that giving me about a future together? you shutting down when I have a serious problem has been your pattern for 4 years.......<P>listen to lostva........the OW had a hand in my pain.....a MAJOR hand.......you kept the entanglement secret, but she had friends call, pretending to be clients, she herself called, giggling, "I hope you don't mind me stealing your husband away"......refering to the late night calls..oh, my water heater is broken, can you send H over>???? its an emergency!!!........you, out of guilt and shame, kept your secret....SHE went out of her way ....the subterfuge and lies came from her.....you never told her to lie...she however, told you, her friends, our roomate, blah blah....to lie....she made up work to keep you around.....she even llied to you....darn right I have anger directed at her...<P>yes, this is big.....and I do love you...but do YOU really understand that....I LOVE YOU.<P>I HAVE LOVED YOU FOR 13 YEARS. and I so want to BE IN LOVE with you again...<P>don't just become the man YOU THINK I want and need you to be....TALK to me about it, tell me about the process you are undergoing...don't keep putting stuff off...don't start and then stop..fill out the emotional needs questionnaire with me.....do it naked! lets have fun!! just include me in the processes that you are going thru.<P>you said:<P> OW, b*t*ch that she is, still never 'betrayed' anybody or lied to a spouse... I did, and ultimately, I am the the one who did the most horrible thing.<P><BR>yes, she betrayed me........when she knew you were married and having problems, and went out of her way to be what I was not being, she betrayed me......I am a human being on this planet, and I would NEVER do to a wife what she did to me...she had a larger moral responsibility as a member of the human race......well, being human might be a stretch for her....and it disgusts me that you epeatedly 'went back for more'....to a woman who had no regard for your wife and children.....what does that say about you? an essentially good, but confused man....you told her that if your heart did not belong to me, you could have fallen in love with her...<P>YOU COULD FALL IN LOVE WITH A WOMAN WHO WOULD HELP YOU DO THIS TO YOUR WIFE, YOUR CHILDREN, TO YOUR LIFE AS A WHOLE??????<P>excuse me if this makes me question what kind of man you are and if thatis the kind of man i want to spend a lifetime with.....<P>you also said..<P>""This is so screwed. I've been cheated on, and this is not the first time I've cheated on a girlfriend/wife. I've had no probs forgiving or asking pardon in the past, but this time, with Dylan, I feel so so so so so crappy.""<P>crappy? crappy? good word...makes me feel great...maybe that is because this time, you have a wife and child....a whole family unit...maybe because for the first time in your life, you might love somebody more than yourself. maybe your other girlfriends in the past cried, yelled, got angry.....why don't you post here HOW I made you tell me about this...about how bizarrly (sp) calm and reasonable I was...how that freaked you out....maybe this time is different, because we have a 3 yr. old I could take with me...and because of your previous divorce and custody probs, you fully realize how MESSY this could be....<P>maybe you grew a conscience. congrats, honey...welcome to the world of being an adult....OW even said you had to stop being a 15 yr. old mentally...<P>if you are better at writing clearly and concisely, then write....write to me!!! write me a letter!!! and I will NEVER bottle up my feelings ever again...I did that for 2 years and it threw you into her bed....and garage, and couch, and salon bathroom, and wherever else......no more bottling from me, no friggin way.....you want truth? you want my pain? you want my hurt.....re-read the above.....no more protecting you from me....<P><BR>re-read Genie's and Heartaches's posts to you......they are PERFECT.<P>and heartpain, a tanned, oiled, sweaty deut is what she got all summer.....and bragged about it to me...so the visual is a little hard for me to take...or to fantasize to...I KNOW that's what she remembers...<P>this is a bloody novel...maybe we should write a real one honey.....<P>Dylan.<BR>

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Hey Dylan-<P>Here's a hug for ya {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{DYLAN}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>It is ok for you to be this angry. Somehow the pain and the lack of ever being able to understand how this garbage ever happens to us-by those whom we care for so very much-just plain and simple hurts.<BR>And maybe I am way wrong here but I think after our spouses can screw some damn bimbo without any cares about our self esteem, commitments, children, families and so on then we immediately receive our license to be a *****!!! Sorry soulloss's exH-but those are my feelings. I can say one thing that I know is right on-IF WE DIDN'T BEHAVE POORLY THEN WE WOULDN'T CARE ABOUT WHO YOU DID WHAT WITH AND THEREFORE YOU MIGHT JSUT REALIZE THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY FEELINGS AT ALL. But that isn't the case-we have feelings. Those feelings have been trampled by the betrayer and their sex partners. As adults we have got to take more responsibility for our actions. You betrayers make a choice-to betray or stay faithful. And I for one know that my H wouldn't be half as forgiving as I ahve been towards him. Why is it that the man thinks he can always do as he pleases and then "woops, sorry" and all will be ok. Yet a gal cheats on her H and all hell breaks loose? You go figure-and I don't care who disagrees with me. I am my H's equal-I expect the same actions from him that he expects of me. And while marriages can be in a bad phase all it takes is W-O-R-K to fix it. I don't think sleeping with another person will make anyones problems get any better.<P>I gotta get off here-I am not in a good frame of mind tonight. I am so tired of all the excuses.....................<P>Whatever is meant to be will be.<P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<BR>"Loyalty Is A Two Way Street"<BR>

You know what? I totally agree with you. You are absolutely right and I even specifically 'gave' Dylan the 'liscense' to be a b*tch. Though I agree with the 'lovebusting' thing, I don't think that bottling pain can in any way be productive or healthy, at least in our relationship. <BR>Dylan has been pretty good about this, very together (at least on outside) and her usage of her liscense has always been fair.<BR>Still, I feel a great deal of shame about what I have and though I have committed myself to letting, even encouraging her to share her pain, it doesn't make it easy or pleasant.<BR>"no duh!" you say...<BR>Again I agree with you, and I don't expect it to be easy or pleasant. In fact I kinda guessed it would be difficult.<BR>When Dylan goes on a 'rant', yes it hurts, because it is true, she is rational and fair and I am faced full-force with the consequences of my actions. Lots of people find that very tough medicine to swallow. That's why most betrayers get so defensive when the betrayed go postal.<BR>Anyway, I want to make this clear (especially to Dylan) I know I can be hard to read. When faced with a rant, I know I go stony faced and look at the floor and cross my arms and legs. I am not in a defensive mindset when this happens. I am struggling with my own emotional turmoil in reaction to witnessing you pain. I think that can be considered normal and acceptable... it is my conscience at work, teaching me a lesson. I am NOT blocking you out at all.<P>The only thing that 'got my hair up was...<BR>"Why is it that the man thinks he can always do as he pleases and then "woops, sorry" and all will be ok. Yet a gal cheats on her H and all hell breaks loose?"<BR>And only because it's a generalization, and while it may even be statistically accurate, it sure isn't true here or among any of the people I would ever call 'friend'. <BR>My post was just me feeling sorry for myself. Not wavering in my commitment, or asking Dylan to ease up. In our case, I think the occaisional lovebust is fair, healthy and neccesary if we are going to work through all aspects of this devastation and move on.<BR>Gotta go, got a movie to watch with Dylan. <BR>wild wild west.. <BR>Deut.

Dear D & D<P>Now I see what my H meant when he said he was being easy on me. I thought the name calling was hard - it was nothing compared to the atomicblast of a letter you wrote Dylan. <P>Jeeze, I feel so much angush for the two of you. It's not even my life and yet I somehow get angry and sad when I read your letters to each other. <P>Dylan, I'd hate to see you make a big scene and spill your heart out infront of the OW (bimbo). Don't give her the satisfaction - from reading what you've said, I doubt very much tthat she carries the capacity to feel remorse for what she did - maybe when it happens to her someday...<P>Also, Dyl, I KNOW how your Deut feels, I'm walking that tightrope myself. It is hard to have to listen to all you had to say on here, and I don't doubt that you say more to him in private. ( I have no eyebrows left since reading your post, they melted off, thank you very much) Just don't forget to show him you love him too, he still needs to hear that.<P>Sheesh.<P>Deut, I'm aware of howtough this is for you. How do you like this tho? My H - Unseen2 tells me of the pleasure utilizing a samauri sword on the OM would bring him, along with other gory details. Yes, I do feel it's directed at me, and I told him so. He has not stopped painting bloody picures of wrath in my head, but was kind enough to tell me that he does NOT mean me.<P>Also, Deut, as a woman, I can tell you what maybe Dylan might want to see coming from you - LOOK at her when she's talking to you - if you start to cry, then cry. HOLD her and don't wait another day to look your soulmate in the eyes and tell her how much you love her and how very eternally sorry and remorseful you are. If you mean it, It will come out. Don't run away like I did for so long. *sigh.<P>Please, i so bad want to see the two of you work things out!!!! Please keep trying - you at least have one nerdball in PA who cares if you DO stay together and wants to see the best things possible happen for you.<P>WHEW!<P>Love, Khyra (loudmouth - see - no eyebrows - i TOLD you!) <p>[This message has been edited by Khyra (edited December 07, 1999).]

Kyra, <BR>Thanks for your reply, and your advice.<BR>I know what you mean about the 'looking in the eyes' thing, and in fact, thanks to a great book I am reading (7 habits of highly effective people) I've realized that the best way to deal with this is by being PROACTIVE.<BR>That means that instead of REACTING to Dylan's rant, I am meeting it head on. After all, I can sure appreciate how she's feeling, and really, when she rants, I am happy that she's expressing herself to me and not just clamming up.<BR>Here's an example... next time your H tells you he wants to use a Katana (Samurai sword)on Om, you may want to point out that that might be a little bit too... shall we say clean and merciful. Death by sandpaper would be more fitting in relation to how he feels. He doesn't actually want to KILL the OM (I hope) it's just the way he feels. Make sure he knows how grateful you are that he is still talking to you in the first place. (Howse that for a total attitude change since the beginning of this thread)<BR>Dylan tells me she loves me about 20 times a day, and vice versa, and SHOWS me she loves me about 3 times that. We will make it, I'm pretty sure. <BR>thanks again,<BR>Deut

When our problem was discovered, it was due to my neglect of our marriage that she strayed. At the time of discovery I felt I had to do whatever it took to keep her in my life. I took the steps I had to to try and save our marriage. After time though, I noticed that no longer did I feel as if the world revolved around her and indeed was sure that should divorce happen I would be fine on my own. At this time I brought it up with her and discovered that it was a form of maturing on my part and that it wasn't exactly a bad thing at all. Possibly your W is going through much the same process.....