When dealing with a "stuck" partner, what does one do? One partner is unemployed, the other is studying, working, taking care of much of the household chores, etc.

Husband:
Working, studying, has chronic illness which started in the course of the marriage (some blame involved), meditates to manage the illness, Wife won't go to sleep at a time that suits Husband, Wife sleeps about 11 hrs per night, doesn't make the bed, but does often make lunch or dinner. When Wife makes food, the schedule is erratic, dinner at 9PM, lunch at 3:30. Husband sometimes seems rude and unnapreciative, because Husband recognizes that rhythmic behavior leads to health and wellbeing. More on Husband -- busy, but takes time for Wife, helps Wife with career projects, website, resume, etc. Husband doing everything he can to address Wife’s issues with self-esteem, motivation, etc.

Wife
Basically unemployed, abused verbally in the home, absolutely domineering mother, other levels of abuse. Husband feels "pulled into" abusing Wife...it's as if the pattern has its own power, but Wife continuously exhibits intolerable behavior including: disrespect (ignoring), messiness, over-sleeping, lack of initiative, very harsh "start up" (when Husband says "umm, would you ... Wife interrupts and says WHAT, WHAT DO YOU WANT?!, and Husband was saying "would you like me to make you some eggs for breakfast?" Wife has major problems with keeping promises, being on time, self-discipline, etc. Wife does "do things" in spurts. Will clean up the kitchen, scrub the tub, or cook, but will often do that instead of taking care of "real" responsibilities like planning her career, earning her share of the household income, contacting potential employers, pursuing career-related projects, etc. Wife then resents doing the household chores, leaving the Husband very confused. Husband did not have an insane mother, Husband is OK with doing household chores, cooking, cleaning up after himself, etc. Wife, when she does cook, more often than not, leaves the kitchen a total mess. Husband then, the next day, cleans everything, uses the pots, pans, knives, and things -- and leaves them clean. Wife then cooks and leaves everything dirty again. The food Wife makes is made with love and care, but Husband would almost rather not have Wife cook at all, if she is going to leave so much work for him to do afterwards.

Marital Situation
Deeply in debt. A lot of sincere, deep, wonderful love. Passion for each other. Willingness to change. Husband earning about 85-90% of the monthly income the marriage partners agreed upon, Wife earning about 15% percent of the agreed upon amount. The difference is the couple’s debt. Technically, they could be evicted from their apartment due to missed rent payments.

So, my question is, what advice would you give this couple? How can Husband build consequences into the marriage without succumbing to the "pull" of the abuse. It's sad, because Wife really responds to rage, anger and negative behavior. Husband has tried the rage angle, and it seems to be the only thing that "works." Husband at first, tried to just "act like Wife's mom," and, unfortunately, the "acting job" worked, Wife softened and actually listened...but only after an "acted out" fit of rage.

Now the "acted out" fits of rage are becoming real and somewhat abusive, yet Wife continues to break promises, neglect chores, oversleep, neglect working, neglect earning money, neglect discipline, and it seems as if Wife is "sucking out" all of Husband's energy. It gets to the point where Wife will blame Husband for not “telling her what time it is!” There are clocks in the apartment, and she has a working watch, she could just look at the time.

Husband wishes deeply to do things like read Stephen Covey's "Effective Families" book, Wife does it, but erratically. Reading the book helps.

Husband loves wife, but is tempted to “give up” on the marriage and on the Wife. Maybe Wife will wake up and live her own life, if Husband divorces Wife. Maybe it would be good for her. Husband does not enjoy “who he is becoming” in the relationship. He’s becoming wife, father, mother/abuser, husband, caretaker, timepiece, career initiator, housekeeper, schedule keeper, alarm clock, etc. – all wrapped into one! When Husband “leaves Wife alone” literally weeks go by without her doing anything productive for herself, her career, health, etc. It took her 18 months just to do her resume. 18 months. And after the 18 months, the resume only got done in an “interview” fashion, with the Husband “leading” the way. Even simple discussions almost exclusively must be “led” by the Husband.

Wife often gets intimidated when expressing her opinion. In her past, she was yelled at for expressing her opinion. Her parents did not respect her wishes or desires. Yet, in the marriage, if she does not voice an opinion, it’s impossible to converse, to make decisions, to decide where to live, what kind of a home to look for, what kind of jobs to get, not to mention setting things up for kids!

These things were “buried” during the long courtship process. Now they are all coming out. The couple is seeking help from the church.

Any advice for either Husband or Wife?

Sincerely
D--

I think you are doing a good thing by seeking help in your church, and by coming here.I'm no expert, but I can tell you what I know to be true.
If what you're doing isn't working, you have to change what you're doing. Obviously, rage is a common approach to problems from her and you these days. I would suggest trying to change your behavior to reflect how you would like to be treated. Patience begets patience, love with love and so on. Be an example and also let it be known that the behaviors of the past are no longer tolerable. If she really wants it to work out between the two of you, she will be willing to eventually change her habits and behaviors.
Have you read the ENs columns on the web site. I would highly suggest that you read them and try to do the questionairre with your wife if she is willing. It's very simple, but very insightful as well. Also the LBs would be very beneficial for you both.I have also been reading Dr Phil's "Relationship Rescue" which has been a big help personally.
I hope this helps a little, and I know that someone else on here will give you more advice. Hang in there and God bless.

I'd suggest boundaries. And some maturity. If you allow yourself to get sucked in and respond in kind, it's a vicious cycle. If you see the cycle, and can analyze as clearly as you have, then I think you have the obligation to break the cycle.

I think boundaries would be foolish at this time.

Right now to me it sounds like the wife is depressed.

Many of the classic symptoms are there.

If that is the case the first order of business is to deal with the depression.

Counseling and Medication are the two things she needs first if that is the case. Unless that gets treated she will not be able to help fix the marriage.

Once she is better then it is time to bring in the LB's, and EN's. Let the wife know that being a patronizing and abusive husband is not something he wants to do. That nagging her until she does something is wrong.

Be ready to change some of the things the husband does too.

I guess you guys figured from my post that I'm husband, and that my wife is wife. OK, this is just such an embarrassing situation, and I feel like things could be so different...

Regarding depression, my wife did an immune boosting therapy, and it has helped. She has more energy and she's more positive. Still, we tried to talk about how we could resolve our current financial situation in context of our greater goals as a couple.

I'm feeling incredibly trapped. It's awful. Whenever I open up, she nails me with some hurtful comment. Even though I realize that her childhood was filled with antagonistic arguing, I thought that she would realize how hurtful she's being.

Is a man being "sensitive" when he gets hurt by his wife calling him names?

We tried to discuss things last night, and I did the best I could to be understanding about her views about how this won't work and that won't work and this is hard, and that is impossible, etc. We basically spent another evening "fixing" her.

You know, I actually need some attention as well. I need a real partner, and I want her to be that partner.

At any rate, she put her leg up on my lap, and it made me uncomfortable, so I asked her to take her leg off my lap. She wouldn't take her leg off my lap. I asked her again. She said "I want my leg there." I guess I don't know how to deal with that situation. I decided to "count" I said, I'm going to count to three, and if your leg is not off, I don't know what the consequences will be." Well, I counted and the leg was there, so I god up from where we were sitting (which was outside), and I ran away from her.

Now, my wife tends to think the situation is about her leg. It has nothing to do with her leg. It has to do with how unfairly I feel I'm being treated. I feel like I should be allowed to have preferences. Had she cared that her leg was making me uncomfortable, maybe I could have uncrossed my legs, and then her legs would not have been uncomfortable on my lap anymore. But for some reason, her thinking just doesn't go that far, and it's making me very tired trying to move the relationship into a positive, mutually beneficial space.

I'm there for her, I mean, she makes a peep, and I'm right there...from breakfast in bed to discussions, to allowing her to talk about her childhood, I mean, I'm right there.

But if I have a concern, like, hey, maybe we could wash the curtains on a schedule, that way it wouldn't be such a "chore." Or, gee, why is this moldy pot of something still here? Well, even my minor concerns are registered as complaints, she just says "stop complaining." And when I try to say "well, that's not really a 'complaint' because it's a recurring problem, and we could just solve it by talking about it..." Then she'll come back with something like "TALK TALK TALK, that's all you want to do is TALK TALK TALK."

Well, it seems like all she wants to do is fight fight fight.

Anyway, like I said, we tried to talk about how we could resolve our current financial situation in context of our greater goals as a couple. Well, that "extra" aspect of resolving our issues in the greater context of our goals was, I guess, just too much.

Is it that she can't handle that level of thinking? She makes the kind of suggestions that I know would cause more problems...I say something like, "we can't solve a problem by creating one," and instead of saying, "hmm, how would that solution cause more problems," or "OK, that's a good point, we don't want to make things worse," or anything that actually acknowledges what I've said, she just aggressively criticizes how I've said what I've said, or she'll make an unrelated comment about there being something on my shirt, or she'll change the subject, or she'll just sit there and not say anything...but she'll never get to what I actually said. She'll never get to the substance.

Where do we go from here. She threw a spoon at me and flipped my boal of oatmeal over this morning. I yelled at her.

The main reason why I'm so agitated about this, is that our relationship is actually based on deep, sincere love. I know that we could have a happy and prosperous relationship and life together. But it seems to me that she just rejects everything I do, say, try, etc. Whatever comes out of my mouth is wrong, before I even finish talking...unless I'm "consoling" or "helping" her.

But then, if I need a sounding board, things are just too difficult for her. If I have a preference, like not wanting her leg on my lap, I'm a jerk if I even express that preference.

Please help.

Something to keep in mind is that there is not buried in each person some wonderful person that just abhors what they're doing, but keeps on doing it.

By that I mean, if your W was brought up in a home where arguing and fighting and such is part of the norm, she's going to see that as part of the norm. And it's very unlikely she's ever (w/o a mindset change) going to be empathizing with you in your position and see it as any different than she already does.

You are not being "sensitive" when your W calls you names. But depressed or not, if you don't respond in a way that stops the behavior, it's going to continue. That's a boundary issue.

The leg issue? Counting was a bit "parental" (and as a parenting technique it sucks). TO be frank, after I asked politely, I would've shoved her leg off after an appropriate time period, or just left, w/o saying anything. She's already acting disrespectfully towards you, you have no reason to continue putting up with it. That's a boundary issue again.

"All she wants to do is fight fight fight". It takes 2 to fight. Again, a boundary issue. If she's raising her voice, or picking a fight, stop, say something like "I am not getting dragged into an argument" in a calm tone of voice, and walk away. LIterally. Leave, go outside, take a drive, go for a walk, etc. Boundary.

How you tell your W that her idea may cause a problem might be a problem in and of itself. But I would encourage you to read the sections on the web site abotu safe negotiation and practice those techniques.

As to your yelling at her? What did it accomplish? Anythign good besides help you feel marginally better? Didn't think so. LB's *keep* the wounds open, they *keep* the walls up, they *keep* you from making progress. So if your goal is to just sit there and stagnate, and give yourself something to ****** and moan about, then by all means, keep up the LB's. But if you want to see some progress, then *STOP* the LB's. If your W isn't emotionally mature enough to stop, that's her problem, but she *DOESN"T CONTROL YOU, YOU DO*. And so just *STOP*. As in Quit/finito/das ende/kaput/kein mehr/zero/no more.

As to the throwing the spoon at you and flipping your oatmeal? If'n it were me, I'd get up earlier and avoid her. And when she asks why, tell her that "I am not putting myself in a position where I am treated with disrespect". And then leave. Boundaries yet again.

As to the "deep and sincere love"? I'm sure that you think so. It's not like there's a meter where it can be measured. But love is as much an action as a feeling, and the two of you are not *acting* like you love each other. And all the feeling in the world isn't going to keep the actions from driving you apart.

Your W doesn't see a problem? Fine. Change yourself, she'll either come along for the ride because she sees the improvements or she won't. And then you'll be happier and if she chooses not to join you, then you can cross that bridge when you get to it.

But a *fundamental* precept of MB is that you must fix yourself. You can't fix her. You can't make her do anything. Nothing. But you can remove yourself from situations that are hurtful, and you can avoid the confrontations by just not participating.

After a period of time, you should start to see some changes. (and we may be tlaking a period of months here, not days). If in a softer moment, you can get your W to take the EN questionnaire, then so much the better.

Get the Boundaries book from Townsende. Read. Become informed. And stop doing the things that are driving you apart. She may continue, that's her poor choice, and you're not responsible for that.

You might also find tha t"being there" a bit less will help as well. You are not obligated to on one hand be at her beck and call, and a doormat at the same time. Your being there is part of a mutually respectful process, not one where one of you is taken for granted.

Thanks everyone for the input. I'd like to say that it's not entirely fair that, since I'm the original poster, everyone take my side. Maybe I'm doing something wrong as well, and I'm grateful for any advice regarding how I can personally improve.

More and more, I'm starting to recognize that we create our own realities, including health, finances, and all kinds of things that we often feel are "beyond" our control. But what I don't get is...how the heck did this happen? How on earth did I get to the point where I'm sucked into screaming matches with my wife?

Regarding counting, goodness, that was parental and silly. It's also a problem in the relationship that I'm playing many parental roles. She resents it, but she, in many ways, is the "cause" for my behavior. For example, if she weren't in bed at 11AM, when I've already been working since 8:30, then I wouldn't say to her "hey, you think you might want to get out of bed?" Interestingly, I talked with her mom about the sleeping all morning issue, and her mom said that she would sleep all the way through until the evening, if I don't yell at her and say "GET UP!!!" "GET UP!!!" Is that nuts? Her mother wants me to yell. She thinks it's the only way to communicate with her daughter (my wife).

Did I fall in love with who my wife could be, but not with who she is? We dated for a very long time, mostly because I was insecure about her past: the fighting, the abuse, her majorly abusive mother, the screaming, etc. But my, at the time, fiance, assured me that she wanted to grow and learn together. She handled the situation so well that I grew to sincerely respect her. I thought to myself "wow, she really has herself together, all this chaos, and look how professional and mature she is." It was a part of my affection for her...her stature, her maturity, her ability to NOT argue, even in difficult situations.

There were "blurps" I guess, when she totally disrespected her mother, or when she lied to her mother, but her mother was really being unreasonable.

So, I guess, it's really difficult to just walk out of the house. I work from home, how am I supposed to work? She's around the house all day. Also, I don't want to complain, but if there's someone sleeping...it's kind of hard to work.

Here's the thing that I'm having a hard time with. If yelling and fighting are LB's (does that stand for Love Buster?), then why, when I totally lose my mind and yell like a maniacal fiend, maybe even throw something, does my wife then soften and pay attention? It's like a door opens up or something. If I don't yell, my wife will just ignore whatever it is that I'm saying, unless it's trivial, pleasant, or about her. If it's about a household or relationship issue, only on rare occasion will she "open up" without some kind of "fit."

I really really don't like doing it. Like I said, at first, to get her attention, I just decided to act like her mom (raging lunatic). But it worked.

Some of our best conversations have been after I've thrown a fit. What the heck is that all about? I don't like that relationship development at all.

I even talked with my wife's mom about that, and she said, "you know how it is in our house, to scream, that is the way."

Uhh, everybody, I really don't want to scream at my wife. I don't like throwing things, and I don't like getting angry. I also don't like living in a sloppy apartment, cleaning up moldy things, and then somehow being told by my wife that she's cleaning up after me. The amount of household work I do outweighs the amount of household work my wife does by far. It really does. Also, if a "project" is actually going to get done, basically, I need to do it. For example, my wife was going to wash the curtains. Well, it's been about a week and she took down a "pre-curtain" in the bedroom. It's not clean. It's not back up on the window. And I've just started to "ignore" these things.

But how can I ignore these things? I live here too. I like to have guests over, and I don't like having to clean for 3-4 hours before guests come, just because I've "ignored" so many things lying around.

So, regarding yelling, it accomplished that I felt like crap, but that we actually had a conversation afterwards. Regarding walking out...well, it's a good idea, I'll need to figure out a way to be mobile with my work.

EN quiz? Is that "Emotional Needs?" Geeze, the topic of "needs" has been tough, because my wife keeps calling me demanding, saying that I have so many needs. Well, I just feel like it's OK for me to want the person I married to actually respond to something I've said. I mean, it might be a comment on "hey look at those apples, they look pretty good..." and my wife will just say "I think I have something in my shoe," or "I wonder where the rice is."

What's wrong with my repeating "well, what do you think about those apples?" Am I being demanding? Seriously. Now, sometimes it's about more serious topics, but these types of situations have happened, where we'll be window shopping and she'll say "look at those shoes," and I'll say, "hey wow, those are nice, what about these..." but if I say "look at that blazer," she'll say, "I have a hankering for popcorn."

What bothers me the most is the difference between pre and post marriage, and it really gets to me that divorce seems like a viable option.

After one argument, I downloaded, filled out and signed the divorce papers. Amazing how easy that was. Took about 35 minutes. She tore them up.

I've experimented with stopping "nagging," and my wife will literally sleep in every day for a week. I've tried to stop saying things about orderliness in the kitchen or around the house, but well, basically, then I wind up being a maid, or the place turns into a total wreck, which I then wind up cleaning (mostly with her help, though).

About "thinking" that we have a deep and sincere love, well, yes, actions speak volumes, and her actions seriously hurt. Actually, it's her inaction that hurts the most. She won't talk, she won't respond, and then...well, ya'll know the drill, she'll respond to yelling.

Somewhere online, I saw an ebook about changing these things around. It was kind of cheesy and written by an asian author (or at least that's what was depicted). One of the premises was that people want what they can't have. Does anybody know what ebook that might have been? I can't find it again. I will, however drum up the "Boundaries" book, but soon I'll be flooded with marital and self-improvement books.

WOW, what a long ramble. It feels good, though, to let some of these things "out."

Thanks all,
D--

I think your W is one of these people that do the absolute minimum possible when forced into change. It's not a wholehearted change, it's a begrudging, how-do-I-make this go away change.

I'd go out, and be away. You want to have friends, I'd make lots of them, and go to their house. And if your W asks you why, you tell her because you're no longer willing to put in the effort to clean up the pigsty w/o contribution, and you're too embarassed to have them over.

And frankly, I'd focus pretty much all my effort on me. And less effort deriving happiness from my W. Less effort in a combat role. Being less available to suffer the abuse. Less temptation to LB.

You can only control the things you can control. And those you can't control, you can't, no matter how much you may want to. So stop trying. You *cannot* MAKE* you W change. Only she can.

SO stop trying. Fix those character defects that are causing you to consider yelling and screaming acceptable (I realize you don't like it. Don't do it. 2 wrongs don't make it right, regardless of her family situation).

Draw those boundaries and enforce reasonable ones in interpersonal communication.

You will probably offend her horribly. If you bring home the bacon, then start managing the money. Perhaps separately. Until you W chooses to join you in a *partnership*.

This isn't a "sides" issue, I'm not taking your side, I'm on the side of marraige. But you're the only one here. And there are things you can fix. And so you need to. And your W's issues will have to wallow in their mire until she chooses something else.

Thanks for the advice. I have a few other areas where some advice could help.

First, my wife won't let me go to sleep when I want to. It's probably one of the most horrible aspects of our marriage. I'm not saying that our marriage is horrible, it's just that not being able to go to bed when I want to is very difficult for me. She'll agree to a "bed time" during the day, and then she'll come to bed 30-75 minutes later. She'll stretch whatever we're doing so that it winds up later than our agreed upon time.

Now, I feel like such an idiot talking with my wife about "bed time," but it's been a few years now, and I'm getting really miserable. There's something about those first 30-45 minutes when one gets into bed...one wants to drift off to sleep and dream happy dreams. But then, there's my wife, who admits that she tries to "steal time for herself" at the end of the day, but she'll come to bed, just as I'm falling asleep. She won't stop this behavior. I guess I could sleep in the living room, but when I've tried that, she'll whine and want me to come to bed...again, later than I'd like.

She doesn't realize that I'm busy, that my business will fail if I'm not awake and alert, that I won't be able to do my studies, that essentially things will just fall apart...which is what has happened.

My health has deteriorated, and I've done a tremendous job of healing myself...however, I really would like to be able to go to bed comfortably. It would support my health, my business, and my happiness.

She's open to talking about these things, but things are just "getting better" so achingly slowly.

It hurts that my wife's preferences are heeded with love and tenderness on my part. I need to "fight" for my preferences, or I am completely ignored. Again, I don't want to fight. I want to converse, to speak, to be comfortable and happy.

I feel like my wife and I have talked about thigs issue up, down, inside out, through and through, and we often get somewhere where I feel like we've made progress...until "bed time" comes around. Since we've talked about it so much, I'll just lie in bed, waiting for her, and after a few minutes, I'll just get angry.

I have a few options 1) Just stay up later than her and forget about my health 2) Try, somehow to fall asleep (buy earplugs, or I don't know what) 3) Get myself to the point where I can meditate so soundly that my wife entering the room does not distract my falling asleep.

Does it make sense that, if one partner comes to bed, rarely 15 minutes, usually 30 minutes, and often 1hr later than the other...and the pattern won't change, regardless of the "bed time," that it would be annoying? If I get in bed at 10:15, she's in bed at 11:00. And when it's 20 minutes later, it's the worst, because that's when I'm falling asleep.

I've tried everything I can think of. It would be nice if my wife would cooperate.

Peace,
D--

OK, so my wife had a job interview this morning. First one in a long time (she's worked I'd say a total of 18 months over the last 4 years).

My wife has a huge problem with timeliness. From getting to movies to getting to dinner with relatives to getting to professional engagements (meetings, etc.).

As I've mentioned, my wife and I made a commitment to each other as to how much each of us would earn so that I could work and finish up my studies, and so that she could work and earn...and so that we could enjoy a financially stable life with one another.

Well, I got sick a few years ago (a few months after we got married). The doctors say "chronic" and "unhealable" etc. Nevertheless, I've tackled and eliminated almost all of the illness since the diagnosis. Now, throughout being sick, I've earned about 80% of what "my share" was, and it might be a bit higher, I'd have to check. My wife has earned about 25% of what her share was supposed to be.

Now, I guess I could further seek to understand why she's decided to sink into a negative spiral, but we've talked about it a lot. She talks about the "pressure" of my illness, and we've moved out of the country, so we're definitely far from home.

But moving out of the country was what she wanted. Her family environment was so negative (her mother, specifically), that everyone in her family said that it was the best idea for us to move away. My wife really lit up like a light bulb when we talked about moving, she was so happy, and I felt happy, as the husband, to be able to bring her to a better place.

Well, she expresses the desire to move, we move. We get here, and she hates it here. She insisted for 18 months that there were no opportunities for her here, but she wouldn't even do her resume. She slept basically all day. We went places, saw things, spent money, and I got sick.

Basically, we've spent all of the money I had saved prior to getting married on my treatments, and I am now capable of treating myself. In other words, my condition is manageable, under control, and receding. It was a degenerative condition and I don't really want to go into detail on this forum. Also, there's something comforting about the anonymity of this forum. If I describe my situation too closely, I get worried that someone I know might put the pieces together and confront me.

Also, my wife and I have an agreement to keep "our stuff" private. So, I'm doing that.

Back to this morning. So, I had to iron and thereby dry her pants for her. I made a quick breakfast, which she ignored. And...she left too late to make it to her interview on time.

The secretary who called mentioned $30-40/hr part time! What an incredible opportunity! It might be perfect for her and wow, if so, it would make up for all the months that she didn't make her share. We'd pop back into a financial comfort zone in just a few months.

And she left late.

I can't believe it.

With my medical condition, it would seriously help me heal, if we could go to bed at a regular time...she won't do it. We've talked about it and talked about it, and she will sincerely commit to going to bed at a particular time, but she simply won't do it.

For me, the time itself is an issue, due to how it affects my health. But the repeated broken promises regarding "bed time" are starting to wear me down.

Her leaving late for her interview, even if she gets the job, it's just a continuation of a very very annoying, toxic relationship-busting characteristic. It's negatively affecting my business (sleepy man is not a happy or successful man), it's negatively affecting my health, it's negatively affecting our sex life (by the time she comes to bed, I'm really tired and irritated), it's negatively affecting our social life (friends know us to come late all the time), it's negatively affecting our ability to enjoy entertainment (she won't make it to movies or concerts on time, and we often wind up in such a hurry that we are literally running with full stomachs to get to some kind of event).

And now, an opportunity came up for her to earn her share, and she leaves late for the interview.

I printed everything out for her. The map for how to get there and how long it would take. I even printed some sheets on the company so that she could review them before her interview. I did all that last night.

...15 min before she needed to go...she got in the shower...she had been up for over an hour!

She forced herself into a frenzy and ... the usual mess.

I'm all for growing and learning in a relationship, but what do you do when one partner has destructive habits, recognizes them, talks about them, but won't let go of them.

Sincerely,
D--

I have this feeling you're not going to like what I have to say about this situation.. but I'll say it anyway.

I think you are contributing greatly to the problem.

You have assumed a 'management' or 'parental' role with regards to your wife. I'm sure you'll say she's 'forced' you into to it because if you don't say.. wake her up each day.. then she'll keep sleeping, etc. But, really, if I were you, I'd take myself out of the role of being her parent/manager/etc and allow her to get up or not get up, work or not work, succeed or not succeed on her own.

Part of the problem is that you are making all these 'we' plans when it's crystal clear that she's not on board with actually doing the plans. I suspect she 'agrees' for the sake of stopping the discussion but she really has no ownership in any of the agreements because she doesn't actually participate much in creating them - you're the one who's doing all the steering.

Right now, you DO need boundaries. The problem is that most people tend to associate boundaries as things that we do TO other people or even as ways to 'punish' people for not doing what we want to do. That's not what I want you to do.

What I'd really like to see you do is:

First, recognize that your plans are not joint.

Make some plans that only involve you and your contribution. Leave her role out of it. In other words, it's time for you to put down the joint plans that you've made and start making a plan that's based in REALITY - what you have to work with at the moment - using the REAL income, the REAL expenses, and the REAL amount of effort that's being put forth.

Let her manage her own life and stop taking such ownership of her life: stop waking her up, printing maps for her, doing her ironing, etc. Let her make it to her job interview because it's IMPORTANT TO HER to go - not because you're ushering her out of the door.

I'm not suggesting that you leave her or be mean to her or be cruel to her. I'm suggesting that you draw a BOUNDARY around YOUR OWN behavior and STOP managing her life and helping her avoid the consequences of her choices. As far as I can tell, if you keep stepping in and taking over, she's going to let you do it. What needs to happen is for you to step away and let her stand on her own.

You can't learn her life's lessons for her - not even if you really want to.

Mys

Thank you very much for your reply. I find it unfortunate, yet likely true that our plans are not joint. Frankly, I really think that sucks.

Teamwork is fun. It's fun to make a dream together and then do everything to accomplish it. I think it sucks not to have a willing partner, someone who will actually make a family mission as per Stephen Covey...not to have someone who wishes to create a vision and work together to accomplish it.

My wife and I did make a family mission, and we posted it on our bedroom door. Each of us was supposed to write little notes and comments on what we wanted to add to our family mission, or what we wanted to change. Well, I was the only one who wrote any notes. I was the only one who added anything, edited anything etc. Eventually, after a few months, the mission statement was just dropped.

Here's a problem. My wife teaches private students at home. We share a studio. The studio is our living room. Today, she had a student at 4PM. She is an excellent teacher, but she only has 2 regular students right now. She could easily have many more...I've coached her through the beginnings of a marketing plan, which, of course, she hasn't implemented. At any rate, as usual, the living room/studio was a mess. I'm thinking...is she going to do anything or not, so I waited. 3PM rolls aroung...nothing. Now, like an idiot, I started cleaning up, thinking that she would help. She starts sweeping crap into corners with a broom! What the heck? She takes books and things and piles them on top of papers on our sofa chair...She basically "covers things up." She does this a lot. It's really strange. It takes the same amount of time to take the things, stack them, and put them in our walk-in closet, which is kind of a catch-all for "I'll organize this later." Anyway, why sweep something into the corner, if a) everyone can see the corner is dirty b) you have to expend effort c) with the same amount of effort, you can have a clean floor.

So, my wife jumps into the shower. Great. I vacuumed, mopped, and undid all of her little piles and put them into the walk-in closet.

Now, she is giving her lesson, and of course, the place is comfortable and clean...because I cleaned. The same thing happens before friends or relatives come over, and frankly, sometimes, we really do have excellent teamwork in these situations...sometimes my wife really does contribute.

What do I do, if my wife's failure to manage her own life winds up reflecting poorly on me?

I also teach lessons from our home studio. Of course, before my students come, it's "my job" to clean before the students come. I can think of one exception, when I had several morning appointments, and I asked my wife to have the place OK for a lesson, and she did do it.

Yes, I am helping my wife "avoid" the consequencs of her choices. But isn't a marriage about sharing, about learning from one another? About maximizing oneself through adding each other's strengths? Isn't a marriage about being open to learn and grow with and from each other? I thought a marriage was about "us," not some antagonistic competition between a husband and a wife.

I want an "us" marriage. I want to learn and grow and share and have fun. I don't want to get barked at when I'm offering to make breakfast for my wife. I don't want to live in a messy apartment when cleaning should be the easiest thing to organize and enjoy.

Yes, I'm a goofball. I'll put on music, sing and clean OK? I do things, work hard, and like to have a good attitude while doing them. Also, I understand that to get results, one needs to "pay the price."

I try to walk past my wife's cotton balls on the floor, and I can walk past them for a few days, but after about day 3, I generally say something. Then, I'm COMPLAINING. So, to avoid being yelled at, I've started being a husband/father/mother/maid/alarm clock/manager/dishwasher...

I know that I would thrive, if I weren't in this kind of environment. I don't want to get a divorce, but my wife whines so much, and yes, I listen...but I'm about listened out! It doesn't matter how little money we have in our bank account, she'll whine until she gets something she wants that costs money. It's mostly that she needs to "do" something that costs money: movies, going out to eat, a day-trip of some kind, some other kind of entertainment.

I can have fun playing cards. I can have fun giving my wife a massage and getting one in return. These kinds of things are much more rewarding to me than going off and being entertained. I enjoy entertainment, I enjoy doing all kinds of things, but if one is in a situation where money is tight, one can't just continue spending as if everything were "normal." And one shouldn't do that if one isn't earning one's fair share.

So, I've allowed my credit rating to suffer, I've maxed out my credit cards, and I've really done a lot of helping.

Focusing on "just me" right now would really hurt. Maybe it's what I need to do, but I feel abandoned by my wife.

Also, I'd actually like to share my issues too. I'd actually like to have someone listen to me and give me as much as I've given my wife. Someone willing to assist, generous with advice, or just willing to listen. Someone who's confidence in me is unending, the way I have utter confidence in my wife.

It's funny. I've expressed utter confidence in my wife, and there have been some incredible results. There really have.

I go out of my way for my wife. As a matter of fact, I've gone WAY out of my way for my wife. (Working on something for her all night because it's an emergency, driving insane distances, etc. etc.)

She doesn't go out of her way for me. It really hurts.

I thrive in a team setting. My marriage was supposed to be the "ultimate team." It was supposed to be fun, rewarding, exciting, and enjoyable.

If we were playing tennis, it's like I'm hitting balls to her, and she just won't hit them back. Sometimes she'll just hit the ball out of the court.

Thank you for your advice on how I can change my behavior to benefit myself and the situation.

D--

Also, I am very interested in understanding how I am contributing to the problem.

Another thing is, how can I get to bed when I want to in this situation? Seriously. I could really use some suggestions.

D--

D--


You're welcome.


You know, not everyone would consider making a family mission statement 'fun.' I want to talk to you about perceived effort. Perceived effort is how much work something feels like to accomplish something. For example, some people really enjoy gardening. They find it relaxing and fun. To those people, there is very little perceived effort to weeding out a flower garden. On the other hand, I don't like gardening. Weeding a flower garden requires a huge amount of perceived effort from me.

Similarly, I think that some people - your wife possibly - feel that creating strategies and mission statements is a lot of work - it's something you do if you're required to do it and not because it's fun or grants her a sense of accomplishment.


This type of exercise would have an extremely high perceived effort for someone like me. It's not that I don't like being organized - I do - but I can't even imagine making a mission statement about our marriage. Now, I'm not saying it's inherently a bad idea. I'm just offering you a perspective that what you might find fun, other people would find tedious and difficult.


It's possible that those thngs aren't important to her or, to put it another way, those considerations do not factor into how she perceives the success or failure of the situation. One thing you can almost always count on in this life is that someone, somewhere is going to have a different perspective on things than you do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I'm going to assume this is not a rhetorical question and answer it seriously.

First, you recognize that the things you prioritize probably not occupy the same positions of importance in her value system. Next, you negotiate ways for her to be enthusiastic about helping you achieve your priorities. That means that you ask her what it takes for her to be happy about accomodating you - not that you convince her that your priorities are right or correct. Usually, that's accomplished by offering her something of equal or greater value to HER.

Any attempt by you to convince her that your priorities are better, right, correct, etc, is a huge love buster called a disrespectful judgement. Leave her to her own opinions and negotiate behavior. Finally, if there isn't a way for you to reach an agreement that accomodates you, then you take responsibility for your own feelings and either 1.) choose to do what you need to do to feel all right with yourself or 2.) choose to deal with the situation as it is. At no point is it going to be productive or wise for you to try to change your wife's opinion. Work on negotiating for behavior instead.


Well, that's your vision of what a marriage is. Have you ever asked your wife what she wants out of marriage and listened to her answer? If so, what did she say?

It might be that you two don't have a common vision on what marriage should be. Don't take for granted that she shares the same one you do - she's a different person.


Again, you don't get to determine what her perceived effort is.


As I said before, you need some boundaries.


I understand that is how you feel but I really am concerned that you have a totally different vision of what marriage is than your wife does and that some (if not many) of your expectations are unreasonable in relationship to that. Now, I am NOT saying that your expectaions are unreasonable by themselves.. but CLEARLY they are not part of your wife's plan for her life and behavior. If they were, she'd be doing them and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Can you see the difference between the two statements? Your expectations or desires are in and of themselves just fine BUT in the CONTEXT of your current, actual relationship, your expectations don't seem to be doing anything other than helping you build resentment at a rather alarming rate.


You need her consent, cooperation and enthusiasm for all those things.


As I said, I just get this impression you two have totally different visions of what marriage or 'going out of your way for each other' amounts to. Until she's enthusiastic about doing the things you want her to do, you're just not going to be able to drag her to where you want her to be and that's the reluctance you sense.

Slow down some, ok? Find out where your wife wants your marriage to go then build a COMMON vision that you've both created, both want, and both understand.


By managing her life and doing things for her the way you think they should be done instead of letting her figure out how to do them on her own.

Here's an analogy. Many years ago, my mother had a stroke and was paralzyed. When she was in rehab, we were called into a meeting and told by the staff that we HAD to allow her to do things for herself even if it took her 3 times longer and 10 times as much effort as it would take us. Simple things like getting things off the floor with her new grippers without falling out of her wheelchair to going to the bathroom by herself were essential for her to learn in order to get the most out of her life. It is so hard to stand by and watch someone struggle to do something that you find 'easy' and that you can do better in a fraction of the time. Yet, sometimes that's the very best thing you can do if you care about someone.

What you do to contribute to the situation is to always step forward and do what (you think) needs to be done instead of letting your wife figure out how to do things for herself. She's a big girl now - why don't you let her figure out how to get up in the morning by herself? Why don't you let her figure out how to go to her own job interviews?


Just go to bed when you're tired. If she continues to wake you up, is there another room that you can sleep in?

Mys

Hello,

Reading your posts indicate to me that you simply married the wrong person for you. Imagine what it would be like if you had married the right person. I think it is a matter of time before you will say enough is enough. Your wife sounds very immature and selfish. You are a victim because you allow yourself to be victimized. You want an equal partner in your relationship but unfortunately, you married a child/woman. I am afraid that your future will be exactly like your present. You used the words that she is toxic to you. If something is toxic to you, do you continue to use it?

My wife and I really do enjoy spending time with one another. Many couples express that they wish the "had" what we have...but they don't know the flipside of the coin.

I'm presenting all of the frustrations here because I can. Because this is an anonymous forum. There are many good, warm, sincere moments.

I still hold on to the warmth of our love for one another, regardless of how ridiculous that might sound.

My mother in law is visiting. She is incredibly draining. She yells, accuses and screams. But she does love her daughter, and she said that she wants to know what in the world it was that was so bad that she did to her daughter.

Maybe my mother in law's visit will somehow be healing. Maybe my wife will finally start showing some initiative. What concerns me, is that my wife confuses initiative with abandonment and she confuses independence with strength. What I mean is that, yes, recently she had made an effort. She's started cleaning up after herself. She went on some job interviews. Yet, she doesn't seem willing or able to craft a life vision with me. She just implements quick, generally destructive solutions to her perceived problems, and thereby makes greater problems.

And I have to patiently "watch" this happen? If we could just have a good discussion beforehand, she could avoid all the trouble and work in a team with her husband.

Maybe I really did marry the wrong person. Maybe this is something that can be gotten through. But at this point, we really need your prayers. We're struggling financially to the point of breaking.

I keep "helping" my wife, yet I neglect myself. My mother in law accuses me of not helping my wife enough. I have the feeling that if I help my wife any more, she'll stop wiping her own XYZ!

There are a few rays of hope.

Frankly, I want this marriage to work out. But I do need our situation and the way I am treated to change.

Mys, I appreciate your thoughtful and insightful reply very much. The concept of "perceived effort" has helped.

Sincerely,
D--

Folks, I'm really hurting. That's all I can say. I am Mr. Bailout, and my wife continues to sleep long hours and make and break promises. We're basically financially ruined. I guess I've tried my best to help her somehow learn to help herself, but in the meanwhile, I've completely abandoned myself. I'm physically ill, and everything has been on "my bill." In other words, it's my credit rating that has suffered, etc.

If my wife would just let me go to sleep, I could get us out of this financial bind. If my wife would care about the kinds of foods I want to eat, then maybe I could heal from my illness.

My wife is a lovely person. On the outside, we are the "perfect couple." We look great, and sometimes, we share a wonderful warmth. Friends who are marriage counselors actually consider us an examplary couple, because we do things together and we cooperate so well.

And our relationship looks more like what you've read here...at least on the inside.

It's true that I've only shared the worst aspects of my marriage here, but I am being honest.

Only since my mother in law's visit has it been revealed to me how truly abusive my wife's mother is and was. My wife is incredibly abrasive to me...yet her mother was abusive and abrasive to her. While we were dating, my wife was much more friendly to me, now that we are married, things are very different.

I don't want a divorce, since there are rays of hope, and I know that my wife has a good heart. I know it, and there is no denying it, no matter what anyone on this forum might say. She has a very very good, kind, and beautiful soul.

I just can't be treated with contempt for no reason. I just can't stand her abrasive behavior. I simply can't take it that she won't have a normal conversation with me about everyday decisions. She'll just abrasively state some completely useless "solution," and get mad at me for wanting to actually discuss the decision until we make a good one. She won't hear it. It's sickening, and I'm actually physically ill. I became ill in the marriage, not before it. I'ts true that I might have become ill, even without getting married, but the stress of the marriage may have contributed.

I pray that our marriage come into a state of marital and financial harmony, and I ask for you to do the same.

Please pray for us.

Sincerely,
D--

Hello.
I'm new to the forum but wanted to ask you if you thought your wife had emotional issues? She sounds very immature in the way she deals with conflict and the way she creates conflict in the first place. Neither of you sound like you use logic to interpret and communicate with eachother. She runs on her emotions and you fuel the fire.

I would also suggest that she is depressed. It seems to me too, like another poster suggested, that you are playing the father figure to her. You are contributing to her lack of initiative and not allowing her to deal with the consequences of her innaction like she should. You're the one who nudges and nudges, or cleans up the mess, so to speak.
As for sleeping, I would put my foot down about this. She obivously isn't understanding that you are seriously being drained. You could sleep in another room if she continues the behavior. Really, if she continues to ignore your request for sleep, I would definitely say she has problems. There's something wrong with a person who continually ignores common sense or a reasonable request such as sleep.
Depression and emotional immaturity come to mind when you talk about how she behaves, and how she reacts to you.
I would suggest your wife get to the doctor to check on depression, and perhaps seek therapy. IF that isn't possible, both of you should do the Q & A's here, write down your emotional needs and discuss them.
Good luck.

Dear Burla,

Thank you for your comments. Frankly, I always figured I used calm, rational discussion before...at least that's what prevailed in my family. I like discussing...I also enjoy improving my strengths and facing my weaknesses. In a way, my life has been defined by facing and improving on weaknesses.

Basically, earlier today, it turns out that my wife lied to me. The lie cost us money. Money we can't afford right now.

There's a very hazy, kind of vague "maybe-ish" way to "kind-of" see what my wife said as "not really a lie" or "wishful thinking," but well, she looked me in the eye and said one thing, and what she said was half of the truth. The other half cost us money...and she hid that from me.

When does the "better" part of "for better or worse" start?

I have to say that I don't think she's depressed. I just think she doesn't want to face life. She's more afraid than depressed. She'll do things with me. She'll meet people, she'l laugh. Now, she can't get anywhere on time. Jobs, meetings, dinners, movies...rare rare things she gets to on time. That's an issue of being disrespectul, not of being depressed. I would think that she'd be "sad" if she were depressed. But she's not generally sad, she just stays in bed. Then, she won't really do anything productive.

Her actions have left us in dire straights. It's all on my credit, not on hers...but I'll work my way out of it, with or without her.

What's really sad is that she has such a kind soul. She really does. There are so many reasons why we're a great couple...truly great partners.

Now that I am confronting her with the lie that she told me, she wants to get divorced.

Why can't she just face that she didn't tell me the truth? All she'd need to say is something like "I did mislead you on that...sorry, I really wanted xyz to work out..." Well, if she hadn't lied, then everything would have worked out a whole heck of a lot better.

It's so hard to believe that I'm in this situation with my wife.

D--

I have followed your stuff since you started posting months ago.

Of course, we only have your side of the story, but I don't see any reason to doubt events are fairly close to your explanation.

I suspect you need to get tough. "Tough Love" as it were. The dynamic between the two of you won't change, until the dynamics between the two of you change.

She has no incentive to change. You have every incentive to change the relationship. Hopefully to the better, but more importantly to preserve your own health and welfare. Something which originally should be a priority to her, but in some distorted way, has not.

I think you have gone beyond the call of duty in attempting to be understanding and careful, and so on.

However, be cautious in writing off the "Depression" issue. Clinically depressed doens't mean that a person walks around moping all the time or constantly on the verge of tears. In othe rwords, it's not depression in the sense if "I'm depressed".

And some ofyour W's behavior does sound like moderate depression. Self-defeating actions in the context of other behaviors can be part of it.

It doesn't mean she gets a blank check to act how she wants to act, w/o having to face consequences.

Are you sure that your W see the "strength" of your marriage in the same glowing terms that you do? Because based on your description, it doesn't appear that way...

E

well i'm new to this forum but it sounds like you both have issues and I suggest you actually see a counselor!!
Good Luck!

Whoops!

I just read this thread..... a few random thoughts.

1. Why does your wife need to steal "time for herself" in the late evenings when she's not working? She has all day for time to herself.

2. In reality, she's not tired because she's slept all day.

3. You need to relocate to another room and get the sleep you need.

Yup, I've thought about those things too...sometimes I'll come home after being gone for 10hrs, and she'll act like I'm "bothering her," like she "needs space."

Well, I think her oversleeping has to do with vitamin/mineral/enzyme/emotional/organ imbalance. Something that just about everyone in the US, and I guess across the globe, may have. Her body isn't functioning "correctly" for a number of reasons, which makes her feel tired, so she sleeps...she doesn't feel rested, so she sleeps more...thereby, she doesn't really eat regularly, which makes her tired...it becomes a feedback loop, which, as I undersand it, is what many illnesses actually are.

Rereading the threads here is very helpful to me. My marriage has improved over the last few months. Today was a bad day. We learned some "listening skills," in counseling and my wife is applying them, but today was strange. The listening skills involve us summarizing the other's statements before moving on.

A few times, we've really gotten somewhere when we apply the technique. She's really been able to hear some of my deepest issues regarding her treatment of me in these "early years" of marriage...it's a start.

But today, she basically flipped. She tried to summarize some of the things I was saying, and she got frustrated and gave up. That's been one of the biggest problems in our "new communication." Often, if what I'm saying isn't "plainly" packaged, then she gets overwhelmed and frustrated. When she doesn't understand, she can get viscious...and then I can't share anything anymore.

I never thought that I'd need to "negotiate behavior," which to me, sounds like something only someone in a really bad marriage would need to do. You only need to "negotiate behavior" if your partner is so callously distant from you, that the "feelings of the other" basically don't matter. But that's how I feel. I feel that my thoughts/feelings/preferences/desires don't matter to my wife.

Going into a cycle of "negotiating behavior" would basically mean, in a way that I'd have to admit to being in a crappy marriage...or that my wife does not seem to have my best interests at heart.

Best,
D--

Boy, we were on an upswing, and I came home today...my wife is planning a party for me. She had been home all day. She was very unfriendly, she started calling me names. In a way, she picked a fight...she hadn't done much to pick up the apartment, and I know that she can't get the place ready for the party. I was a bit surprised, since yesterday at lunch she told me not to worry about things "I have ALL DAY tomorrow, this is YOUR party..."

You know, I feel like I can't say anything at all without my wife assuming that I'm insulting her. For goodness sake, she hadn't picked up the apartment. She was sitting there, working on a curtain...all angry and scowling.

Had she said something like "hey there, how was your day? You know, I didn't get a chance to clean as much as I'd hoped because I was working on something else, do you think you could xyz?"

Instead, I was trying to find out why she seemed so upset. She said she hadn't been outside all day. OK, I understand that. She started talking about all the work that she had done...and it looked like about 45 minutes of "work." So, I didn't understand. I also didn't understand what was making her so upset. She started saying that I was bothering her.

When I said that it didn't look like she had done that much work, she started yelling at me and calling me names. I tried to find out what was bothering her. I really did what I could to not get sucked into her attacks.

She negates the things that I say. She assumes she knows my intentions. It's funny, because I'm totally willing to pick up a mop and clean and carry and do and lift and whatever...I'm just not willing to be yelled at.

Then she said SHE felt used and abused.

It was incredible. I asked her to explain herself. She said I made that pillow over there and it took a lot of time. OK! She covered the pillow in some cloth napkins. Frankly, it doesn't look very good, but I didn't say anything. I don't know why she would have spent so much time doing something unnecessary when there are basic cleaning things to do before the party...also, I have to work before the party, so I won't be around to help.

I can appreciate that she put her effort into covering the pillow, I just can't continue to be yelled at. I mean, she was scowling when I came home.

What am I supposed to do? Come home and heap praise on her for every single finger movement she might have done? The way our marriage works is that things she touches, she leaves dirty...I leave them for a few days for her to take care of...when I remind her, she says I'm complaining...then some kind of party or guest or event comes around and she does the cooking and I clean everything up. It's not fair.

Also, I clean up after the party.

She won't maintain a basic regimen of taking care of the aparmtment...

goodness...

Anyway, she just wouldn't listen to anything I was saying, she wouldn't let me express my intentions (which were good), she was calling me a lot of names, and she was cornering me into opinions I don't have. After about 90 minutes, I lost it.

I smashed some bananas on the floor and emptied the garbage onto them. Then I poured some juice onto the floor. I said "that's what you're doing to us, that's our marriage...smash smash smash." More like smush smush smush. Then I slipped and fell without hurting myself. Then I started cleaning everything up.

The miracle is that after such idiotic expressions of emotion, my wife tends to listen attentively. I don't get it, but it happens.

I explained to her that I felt like my "intentions" were the bananas, and that they were nice. I told her that she smashed every thought, every intention, every thing that I tried to say...and well, she understood.

In the end, she was able to summarize how she acted and even said "you came home and I called you a lot of names, that wasn't very nice."

I'm glad that she came to her senses...but the apartment is messy, it's late, I have to work tomorrow, and there's a party. Financially, we shouldn't be throwing this party, and my wife wants to "hide" our bedroom.

My office is "one side" of our bedroom. I can't "hide" the bedroom from our guests. The bedroom actually needs to be picked up. It can't be a disaster area. She got really mad when I said that. She said "I don't need to show everyone in the world my bedroom." Well, I don't like to be ashamed of myself or my lifestyle. Also, certain guests will be interested in some of the things I'm working on...so the office will need to be accessible. I think she just wants to make a big pile of crap in our bedroom...also she thinks it will take 20 minutes.

This is so tiring and childish. I've lost quite a bit of energy to this. We're trying to work out absolute total basics like going to sleep and cleaning.

I might have written this before, but I told my wife that I consider the way she treats my need to get to sleep as physical abuse. There is no other way to describe it. I feel abused by her behavior regarding bed time. She just won't let me go to sleep when I want and need to. We've tried to work things out, but she always acts like I'm being impatient when I want to go to sleep.

Can a man be tired? Why am I being impatient by going to bed? Why am I complaining if I don't like it that she makes noise when I'm trying to fall asleep? Yes, that's gotten better. She'll sometimes get her things out of the bedroom and get herself ready outside of the bedroom and then come in quietly without turning the light on...but not always.

Folks, I'm really really getting tired in this marriage. Without her yelling at me, our apartment would be clean, and I'd be relaxing before a big day tomorrow. Now, I'm on this forum, and she's out.

I cleaned everything up that I put/threw on the floor. I just don't know what to do. She's still not really working. We had a financial agreement. Today, she said that she expected more out of me and that I'm not earning enough.

Had she been able to keep a part time job...even at under $1000/month...we'd have been able to put away...save...quite a bit of money in the last few years. Is $1000/month too much to ask? We had agreed on that amount. I relied on it. I relied on her.

We tried to meet for lunch this week. She came 30 minutes late. Interestingly, when she showed up, I was going to leave "in 45 seconds." I looked at my watch and figured I'd just leave at exactly 30 minutes past the hour.

She's not happy with her career, but she won't do anything about it. I've helped her, and I'm very good at helping, but when she needs to do a task, she doesn't do it.

She was supposed to manage our 2005 financial folder. I left the issue completely alone the whole year. She yells at me for reminding her...so on the financial folder, I didn't say a thing. Well...it's well past tax time...is the folder done? No. OK, well, I'll be doing the taxes late then...

So, again, I'm going to pick up and do something she should have done...which will make her feel stepped on and weak...but for goodness sakes, I have to do the taxes.

For tasks relating to her career, I've made her resume, business cards, website, made calls on her behalf, etc. etc. etc. Every time I help, things move forward...she needs to do a task...things halt.

The "negotiating behavior" thing seems to be helping...but I can't take what this is doing to me. I feel like I'm becoming "the kind of person who throws things on the floor and stomps on them." It's what I did today. I did that. I just can't take being yelled at...so I'm rambling...rambling into this forum.

I'm starting not to be able to believe that this is my life. I'm starting to yell back. I think the neighbors have noticed. When we've been to counseling, it has really helped, I'm just starting to get scared...scared that our marriage is beyond repair, scared that she would treat our potential children the way she treats me. Scared that I'll be much much much less than I could be in life due to marital strife. Scared that we'll just get divorced in a number of years anyway, so why not just do it now.

Is it heartless to get divorced? I mean, I think she actually means well. I really think that she loves me or "feels" that she loves me very very deeply. It's true that many of her actions don't reflect love...but many of her actions do indicate love. I just haven't really mentioned them here.

I feel like if I get a divorce, it would be like saying "oops, you're defective, I need a new one." Great packaging...great sales process...didn't see the flaws in the product. That's terrible!

But it's challinging to maintain sympathy for her "going through a hard time." It's challenging to watch her do so little for herself. It's also very challenging to maintain the public facade that we maintain...the facade of the happy successful couple.

When I try to help, she feels "pressured," and she yells. When I let up, she does nothing.

One thing she'll do, she'll cook. She won't clean up after herself, but she will cook. She cooks with love. Another thing she will do is put little decorations around the apartment. She won't clean the apartment, she'll pile big books on top of little books, she'll leave empty toilet paper rolls on the bathroom floor...but she'll put little decorations up.

So, that's what I've got to go on. Cooking and little decorations.

She can be generous physically.

I don't feel like I have much to go on, and after a fight like tonight's I'm starting to lose hope in our future together. The fight ended in understanding and in peace, which I guess is a good indicator...but this kind of energy-robbing fighting can't continue.

If you do such a thing, please pray for us. If not, please think happy thoughts for our marriage. Think "those guys can make it." Please...I know it's possible for us to have a great marriage...something is just blocking us/her. She's somehow blocked by the abuse she experienced in her childhood. She doesn't need to bring that baggage into her future...

Goodness!
D--
D--

My wife keeps breaking promises, and she keeps yelling at me. When I ask her why she's yelling at me, she gives non-specific, mean-spirited replies.

Thoughts of divorce feel really good right now. I imagine everything in my life coming together...career, business, school, clean apartment, health, exercise, going to things on time, sticking to a budget, etc. etc.

Best,
D--

D--

Hope you're still reading. You have a marriage without boundaries...a lot of projection and disrespect...and you're doing a lot of those things.

You only can control you...learn about boundaries around yourself, enforcing them, and respecting yourself and your wife.

Read the books, do the counseling and learn all you can about yourself and what you believe relationships are...

Divorce is a fantasy in your head you're using right now to self-comfort...it is destructive and dangerous to you...if you do choose to divorce, you will repeat this until you do your own work...I promise.

And you are capable, whole and complete...nothing defective about you. Know this...know what your standards are and your boundaries. Then you'll know that asking "why are you yelling at me" is full of self-betrayal and how much pain you are causing yourself, believing it to be coming from your wife.

LA

Dear LovingAnyway,

I sense the truth in your words.

I've now found out more about my wife's abusive upbringing, and I didn't know it was as bad as it was. I feel that she, like a vacuum cleaner or a high powered magnet, simply attracted or "sucked up" every negative aspect of her past and forced it into our relationship.

Something I didn't really expect, is that my wife actually feels that way too. She recently visited with her parents and was able to see just how sick the environment is.

I'm curious what you mean by my "projecting," and I'm even more curious what you mean by my "disrespecting" my wife.

I feel that I know my boundaries, yet I leave them available for people to cross. When they do so, in general, without doing anything, they wind up drifting out of my life. It's been an open and wonderful way of attracting the greatest of friends...but also attracting just "folks." All kinds of people. I tend to bring out the best in people, so I don't really look at "who" the person is, I look at what they are when they are with me. What I mean by bringing out the best in people, is that people tend to be friendly to me and to each other when I'm around.

So, in my marriage, I figured I'd leave my doors open. Instead of bringing about a peaceful state of creative love, as it has in my friendships, it led to a lot of abuse, from my perspective.

I don't think it's "right" of me to "close the door" on my wife.

Regarding standards. I make and keep promises. My wife hasn't exhibited the same habit. Is it because my "doors" are open? But what am I supposed to do? In a marriage, we should be loving, open, and vulnerable.

You can't shield and be vulnerable at the same time. But if you are vulnerable, and your wife injures and stabs and cuts and bruises, it makes you want to shield...even in your marriage...which in my book is the last place one should have to shield.

"Then you'll know that asking "why are you yelling at me" is full of self-betrayal and how much pain you are causing yourself, believing it to be coming from your wife."

Even when it is unprovoked? When the words on your lips are "Honey, what would you like for breakfast?" and before you even utter "H" you meet with "WHAT??!?>!"

These were patterns from my wife's past. I also think it's important to know what and who is being reflected.

"why are you yelling at me" being full of self-betrayal leads to "you create your own reality." I've done quite a bit of work in that area, and I have successes in many areas of my life. I've even "created" little gifts for my wife.

Are you saying that we, as individuals are 100% responsible for how others treat us?

Interestingly, I have no problems with strangers. Few problems with friends. Some problems with my immediate family. A lot of problems with my wife.

When my wife was a friend, a fiance, she held her wounds to herself. We got along well. In marriage, her wounds broke open and she attacked me and enveloped me with her pain. That realization has been the result of counseling.

It's likely that I have contributed to the problem, but I feel it's important that I continue my "open door" policy. My wife can decide not to abuse me. If I have to "defend myself" in my own marriage, then is that a marriage?

I'd really appreciate it, if you/we could discuss how
"why are you yelling at me" is full of self-betrayal.

Best,
D--

I can't believe I'm still married. My wife was away for a few weeks visiting her family. For me, it was a time of great relief, I could clean up our place, get places on time, not hurry, not be subjected to yelling or criticism...it was very pleasant and productive, albeit a bit lonely.

We just had a really bad fight. She's only been back for few days.

She keeps insulting what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, when I'm doing it, how I'm standing, my tone of voice, but she won't look at the fact that I'm...for example, the catalyst of our argument today...just standing around waiting for her! I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm not saying anything I'm not doing anything...she just attacks me. She was late, OK, big deal, does she have to yell at me for standing around and waiting? She tells me I could do something while waiting...well, I did do "something," I washed the dishes (most of which were "hers"). Then I walked into the room where she was putting on her makeup. Then I get attacked again. If she wants to be "left alone," then she shouldn't shout and insult and call me names and criticize me. Also, what on earth is wrong with being pleasant? I don't "have" to be in the same room as her while she's putting on her makeup, I'm just walking around our place. If I happen to be in the same room, I might ask when she'll be ready, which is like asking for a bomb to explode, so I might try to just converse with her, or, if she sighs, then I might want to find out whats wrong and see if I can help her.

She just yelled and started crying and stormed out of the house.

I ask for your prayers.

D--

When your wife insults you...there is two parts. The actual words and your perception. You can only control your perception.

To get a grip on this, my power, I had to put a hopper on my head...okay, it's symbolic...still the very image of what was a large, metallic strainer balanced on my head helped me deal with conflict.

When your wife said you could do something instead of just standing around...listen and repeat.

"I hear you saying that I could do something while I'm waiting for you."

"Yes."

"Do you mean for the entire time or for part of it?"

I don't know what she might say here.

"Part of the time I spent doing the dishes. I felt good about choosing to do that, though I resented that most of them were yours. Then I went in to be with you while you did your makeup. I enjoy your presence, love to watch you move. I felt attacked when you said you wanted to be left alone. I felt rejected."

Then I believe you might hear her stuff...(and yes, I'm very much making this up to widen your perception)...

"When you wait on me I hear my mother's voice telling me I'm a lazy girl. I'm bad and I ruin everything. The pressure builds in me...that I am MAKING you wait. My relief comes in thinking of you not waiting, but doing. And when you came into the bedroom, I felt you were hurrying me, those same words in my head, I was hearing them in your voice."

Real dialogue...validating real feelings...no approval, no shoulds, no tit for tat...pure communication.

When she shouts, "I feel you are beating me by shouting. I am full of anxiety and I can't hear your words. If you continue, I'll have to leave the room until I can hear you."

That's a progressive boundary enforcement...predetermined. "I hear you insulting me...I take that you wanting to be left alone to mean that I'm bad for wanting to be around you."

Get to what you really think and feel and own it...state it in "I" statements..."I believe" "I feel" "I think"...if you find yourself saying, "You make me feel like crap" then know you're not owning you feel like crap...not getting to your own truth.

"When you call me names, (and give an example), you are defining me and that's abusive. Stop."

Does it again, "You are choosing to be abusive. I will not be around you when you do that. I will resume this conversation in two hours."

Calm, true to yourself and your boundary.

Will you consider, "Can I help you?" to also convey, "You need helping" when she sighs?

"What are you feeling right now?" Or given the volatility of your relationship right now, "I am wondering what you're feeling right now." Sighs come in a thousand forms...they really do. Find out what makes you sigh...your different kinds.

Focus on you...your boundary enforcements. Respectful, real and honorable. They are.

Predetermined is key. Like the breakfast scenario. "I heard you shout "What?!", interrupting me. I feel anger and frustration." Leave the room for two minutes. Re-enter and continue with what you were doing. In that two minutes, take deep breaths, clear your mind and know you are doing great self-care, being respectful to self and your wife.

You are in Phase II of marriage...the toughest part...the intimate part...where your wife is showing her true self, her wounds, scars and weaknesses. So are you. Know this as the middle part of getting to Phase III...mature love. Worth everything, in my opinion. This is the most difficult stage of love; you're in the labor pains of birthing real intimacy.

LA

Dear LA,

Thank you for your in-depth response. Right now, my wife is in what I would call a "negative space." I'm having a great time working on a new product I will be putting out soon, and I am 100% sure it will be a great success. I am really starting to enjoy my work, my opportunities, and the people I attract and maintain relationships with.

My wife, when she feels a symptom of some kind, immediately starts searching for some "label" regarding her symptoms. She goes to the point of diagnosing herself and talking as if she had some disease. A few years ago, I would run around and get every expensive medication or curative formula we could even vaguely afford...she needed this, she needed that. She was at home, I had/have a real chronic illness, but I was running around buying stuff for her on credit.

Anyway, at least I'm not running around the city buying stuff.

It's annoying when my wife chooses a route that damages her. It's a simple realization that moving towards health resolves medical issues. We have several books on the subject. Towards health beats away from disease every time.

She is very concerned about her weight. She was yelled at and called skinny by her mother. Yet she'll sleep in (10-11 hours), she won't eat breakfast, and she doesn't exercise.

So, I have today to work on my product. I went out to take a break, and she used the PC for a while. I come back, and she has several pages regarding a particular disease in front of her.

Now, I truly wish for her to stop wishing these kinds of things onto herself. I also wish to have support for my personal healing process. I also wish for my wife to start complimenting my healing process.

While my wife was away visting her family, I was able to make significant strides towards reactivating positive friendships, exercising, working, earning, getting rest, eating good food, even finding a few new folks to spend time with.

My wife made real progress while she visited her family. She seems much more relaxed, and she is much less prone to just snap and scoff. That's great. She saw what her family is like, she sees that she projects her family situation into our marriage, and she does not want to bring such chaos and abuse into our lives.

But, when I see her staring at all these disease descriptions, I just don't know what to do. She's been to several doctors who all give her a clean bill of health. Many have told her to look into the emotional side of things. Also, it's just cryingly obvious that if you sleep 11 hrs per night, don't eat breakfast, and don't exercise, and spend a lot of time anxious...well, you might not be the heaviest of people.

I wish to have the kind of relationship where my wife can accept that we are one and can accept my loving advice. I also wish to receive and accept the loving advice of a kind partner. I probably need it. For example, I work very very hard and tend to not take breaks. It would be nice to have an external, balancing partner, who looks out for my best interests. Well, I do that for my wife. I wish to look out for her best interests, it's just that it seems to be leading to my having a very expensive, often quite mean, puffy, pretty...pet.

I wish for her to see that her actions and inactions are creating her physique. Also, she has an incredibly hard time accepting how beautiful she is. Literally, she is in her late thirties and people think she's in her mid twenties. She was a model and could still be one...even without exercise.

Of course, it would be better if she did exercise. She'd also feel better about herself. It would be better if she slept up to 8 hrs and then got out of bed. She'd feel better. She wouldn't be so grumpy.

So, I guess, I see solutions. Solutions I wish she would take up eagerly and readily. I'm like that. So maybe that's an unfair comparison. If I get good advice...goodness...I'm so happy! Now, control, coercion, force...these are unpleasant, and every person resists being controled.

So, there it is again. My wife's controlling, abusive upbringing created a situation where my wife can't accept a more positive route. And it's not just a more positive route "for me," it's just simply more positive to eat good food, breathe well, sleep rhythmically, exercise well, and be happy...than to live a lifestyle that attracts illness.

So, frankly, I want my life to stop it. I want her to choose a lifestyle that attracts joy and abundance. I also want her to come along on "my ride," meaning that I want her to supplement and augment and facilitate my adventure in life.

Yes, I have the image of being abundant and joyous and happy together. Is that wrong? Can't I point out when my wife exhibits behaviors that conflict with her/my/our image?

We've worked on expressing our desires for our marriage, and those conversations are great. Unfortunately, I generally keep my promises, and my wife, up to now, hasn't. I'm not going to say that she can't or won't, it's just important to note that we'll have these moving, loving, healing conversations, and then, basically, she won't put her words into action, and I will.

I am entering into a phase where I am starting to be more influential in my career. I feel held back by my wife's negativity. Sometimes I have to really meditate to fix my mood, and only then can I "face" the world. I wish for my wife to be a joyous supplement to my mood. Other people gather worries in the outside world and come home to solace. For me, right now, it's been the opposite. But the worry at home leaked into my exterior environment. It leaked into my finances, my health, my friendships.

I'd like my home to be a place of relaxed refuge, of peace, joy, and tranquility. I invite my wife to cooperate.

The problem is that she doesn't "have" to cooperate, and yes, likely, divorce is a fantasy, because I just don't think I'm going to do that. Does my wife know it? Is she using me? Is she using my dedication to our marriage as an excuse to be as negative as she can be, just to see if our marriage will break?

Regarding shouting. Most of the time, I'm not the one shouting. She shouts. Then, I try softly to have a normal dialogue. Often, it happens when I try to address a normal household issue. Something like dishes, clothes scattered around the living room, dirty kitchen floor. I'll try to ask for a process that would work for both of us, so that we can enjoy our physical space. The reaction is SNAP SNAP, INSULT, YELL! I try again softly. That cycle repeats until I start raising my voice. The worst part of the cycle is that my wife used to ONLY listen when I was yelling like an absolute maniac, when I was so infuriated that I could barely control myself (which is how her mother acted every day of her life...how her mother still acts today).

That's where the magnetic force of her abusive past comes into play. I don't want to act that way, but she basically won't converse with me unless I act that way. She'll stab, jab, insult, call me names, ignore, stomp around...until I fit into her mold.

Just now, when she was using the PC, I guess I said something that could have been perceived as annoying. She was reading about a specific disease, and I said "Oh, wouldn't it be better to move towards health?" She got very defensive. She also got mad and left the room.

Usually I would follow her, and we would have a long long discussion...no matter how much work I might have to do that day. I would try to say "hey, I'm not tyring to be mean, it's just there are alternatives to insisting on illness," she would react, walk away...and, in my opinion, assume that I have negative or controlling intentions...which I don't. She could easily say something like "I feel caged when you say that I'm insisting on illness, I'm just doing the best I can with my awareness of my body." Hey, that would be great, I could work with that, but she just stonewalls and namecalls.

So, in a way, it helps for me to think of my wife as an addict. She's addicted to a negative cycle of behavior that leads to an obvious result. The driving forces of the negative cylce, from my perspective, seem to be worry, fear, concern, voices from her past, and ingrained patterns.

I wish to have an open relationship. One in which also my "patterns from the past" could be addressed and discussed. I really don't have any problem improving as a person. I also do everything I can to do things in such a way as to please my wife. I truly wish for her to act the same way. I am open to feedback...I wish for her to be as well. I am open to dialog...I wish for her to be as well.

We can design a magnificent life together, but in order to do that, both of us need to be willing participants. I'm willing. I write lists, read books, talk, seek counseling, etc. I also "leave room" for my wife to assist. But up to now, she has dropped the ball almost every time. She was supposed to make an appointment for counseling. We were in an OK space, but things were declining...she didn't make the appointment...I gently reminded. Nothing happened. Basically, she just neglected to do "her part."

Things were getting really bad and instead of allowing our marriage to collapse. I did it. I made the appointment. I sought out help.

Now is that fair? What about her? What about her energies contributing to the health of our marriage?

It's the same pattern she exhibited as a child, with her mother controlling everything she did. Also, it's the same pattern where my wife leaves everything to the last minute to the point where the people around her who wish to help her are driven into a frenzy of almost impossible activity!

I wish for our marriage to come into a phase of joy and tranquility. I also wish to be supported. I don't think it's fair for me to need to be Mr. Perfect, Mr. Everything (maid, dishwasher, floor cleaner, money-earner, health-fixer, etc), while my wife just drains and drains and drains my energies and efforts, while she just does less and less and less, just because I am able to do more.

So, this time, I let her be negative, and she left the room. I don't like it. I don't like having people who are anxious around me...I generally step in and say something soothing. But OK, not this time. She left the room, she's concerned over some illness, and I'm writing in this forum, instead of consoling her.

Now, back to work,
D--

Okay, so you decided not to share your boundaries and boundary enforcements with me, huh?

You are uncomfortable being around people who feel anxious. You usually combat your discomfort by stepping in and saying something soothing...to modify or change their feelings which are not your own.

Would you consider that respectful? When you feel anger because someone slapped you in the face and walked out, do you want someone to hold you, telling you it's not so bad, don't be angry, they are the bad guy?

Would this be controlling of you? Of the other person consoling you? Would this be respectful of what is only yours and no other's domain?

I'm curious because I see key words like "fair" "dropping the ball" "drains and drains and drains" and you feel annoyance when your wife damages herself. And I see full focus on her, not you, your parents, your FOO (family of origin) and what you were taught was controlling and what wasn't...what was respectful and what wasn't...and what love was...and what you believe now.

Not uncommon for a human to want a diagnosis for their life...to find something they can have through no fault of their own when they are steeped in blame, inside and out.

You can't diagnose them, fix them and cure them...even when they beg you to--you have no power. Enabling is not an act of love...it is conflict avoidance. Self-betrayal and serving a false self image, not self.

And as I learned very late in life...people aren't problems...people have them.

Fixing people is abusive...

You're here, DM...you aren't being told you're the problem...you can't be...I am sharing my beliefs, what changed everything in my life...which was understanding, acknowledging and owning my true self...and how changing me truly does change everything.

If you want to get through Phase II to Phase III...mature love...there's a lot of stuff to realize, habits to change, perspectives to choose and perceptions to doubt...all of them are your own. You have the power (are you too old for He-Man?)...you really do.

All humans do. You're human. You are whole, complete and marvelously made...separate and equal to every other human on the planet. That includes your wife.

Why they call it partners...each with their part.

When you over-function...overdo in the partnership, then there is only room for your partner to under-do.

I hope you'll keep posting...you're honest and I believe, questing. You're not alone. Your desire to address your own patterns from the past (I really like that phrasing)...is a matter of you doing so and sharing what you're doing, how it's going, what you realize, in essence, your "self" with your partner. That is choosing to be intimate...not based on possible or probably response.

Please tell me your boundaries...how you define abuse...what you do not allow yourself to do to others (your standards) are the same for your boundaries, usually.

In your corner,

LA

Abuse:
Yelling at someone. Calling them names. Not understanding them before negating them. Negating. Ignoring. Interrupting in a power-conflict kind of way (interjecting in a joyous, lively conversation is OK). Defining another person's thoughts/feelings for them and then accusing them of having those thoughts/feelings.

Crossing of boundaries:
Careless, reckless, or damaging behavior.
Disrespect of time
Linked behavior (only goes to bed after me, gets out of the car after me, does make-up only after I'm waiting, etc.)
Making and breaking promises big and small
Ignoring and diverting
Not responding until the people around you are at emotional extremes
Refusing loving interdependence. Refusing to plan. Refusing to discuss.
Dis-abling behaviors (not letting me go to sleep, talking to me while I'm working, on the toilet, on the phone and doing so in a way that causes me to put her first and not my own needs at the time)
Every day is not lazy-Sunday
Equating anger and strength
Mistaking desires for demands
Ignoring what might have caused my irritation, and just blaming me for being in a bad mood. Isn't it possible to discuss the reasons why I might be upset about something? Don't I get to be upset about a thing or two without my wife going nuts? She gets to point, criticize, point criticize and ignore herself, her own behavior, her own responsibility for the things she's criticizing?
Criticizing me when I laugh, criticizing me when I'm upset, etc. No emotions allowed...especially not strong ones!
Not understanding my wants needs and desires.
Not letting me finish my sentences.
Willingness to leave the other in pain (walking out during an argument, ignoring, not seeking to understand me). Prolonging discussions by ignoring key points.

Annoying habits:
Inability to layer tasks effectively
No planning, just ineffective doing
Not cooperating with others with regard to her career.
Simply being angry a lot.
Saying the kind of things that can ruin a whole day.
Leaving budgets in the realm of the "theoretical," and then wanting everything without doing the appropriate actions to have those things.
Not accepting that we've created our reality.

Many of the above are formulated as "things wrong with her." I don't like that. They should be "boundaries." Or, ideally, the opposites would turn into our marriage vision.

Best,
D--

Boundaries are around us, not them...from your post, these are what I see as your boundaries:

What you will not do and what you will do because this is who you really are...Not as a manipulation to get others to change or in an attempted to control how you are treated...

You will choose not to

Name-call
Yell or shout (use a violent voice in volume or tone)
DJ
Attempt to make your beliefs their beliefs
Attempt to make your feelings felt by others
Attempt to make your perception their perception
Attempt to make your thoughts their thoughts
Withdraw (Ignore, not respond, tune out, not be present)
Interrupt (blocks listen and repeat)
Define others...tell them who they are
Break promises, nor promise that which you will not do
Choose to perceive statements of desires as demands
Hold others to your own standards
Perceive opinions as criticism
Create resentment in yourself
Make another person responsible for what is inherently yours
Take responsibility for what cannot be your responsibility
Believe others make you feel, think or believe anything you do not choose to feel, think or believe
Live in fantasy.
Act out passive aggressively


You will choose to

Respect others by Listen and repeat (Acknowledge, Validate)
Accept yourself and the reality you've created
Own your life...using "I" statements to share who you are
Honor you are half the marriage, a whole person, in a union of two humans
Share who you are not dependent on response (even nonresponse) because you believe in knowing and being known
You will respect others have their own standards and boundaries
Enforce your boundaries around yourself and your marriage
Call your wife on her passive aggressive behavior
Know and accept reality.
Believe love is a choice you make, not earn and you act lovingly from that choice, not from fear or earning

When she yells, your first boundary enforcement would be to hold up your right hand, palm out, and state, "I believe yelling is abusive. Please stop or I will remove myself from our conversation."

If she continues, "I am removing myself now and will return in ten minutes, after my fear and emotions settle down."

After you return, if she continues yelling, "You are choosing to cross my boundary of abuse. I will not resume this conversation for four hours."

You remove your presence for your protection and protection for your relationship.

Each time, consistent enforcement...for all your boundaries. State what it is, how it affects you and what you are doing about it. Using "I" statements...this is about you, not her. You respect she is choosing her behavior as you respect you are choosing yours.

Listen and repeat is for clarity, to knock out your own assumptions, and by lengthening the information time...what you're hearing and not reacting to...(more difficult to react when your focus is on hearing the information correctly, not reacting to it). I believe it is essential to having boundaries and enforcing them...if we DJ, we perceive them being crossed when they aren't...so enforcement becomes punishment.

First is to know your boundaries, then have clarity for what crosses that boundary, real or perceived, and then to enforce. Toughest part, and why I broke out what you could use as what you will do and will not allow yourself to do...is you'll have a hard time attempting to enforce a boundary which you cross yourself.

Balance.

If you criticize yourself..."I shouldn't be angry" "I shouldn't be happy" "I should be joyful" "I should be peaceful" then you will hear others' opinions as reinforcing criticism.

What you do not allow yourself to do to others, you cannot allow yourself to do to you. And vice versa.

When you don't do it to yourself, you will enforce your boundaries when it is being done to you...consistently.

If you believe you earn love from others, hence, security, then you will experience punishment, as well. If you choose to believe we can only be loved for what we do or do not do, then you are essentially telling self that self isn't valuable or lovable as is...which self is. Way you were made. Self doesn't "do" it is...you are...you exist...and are loved before you speak a single word or take a single action...before you make a single choice. You are.

I believe that's crucial knowledge to enforcing boundaries...because boundaries only surround self...real self...if you make a boundary to be treated respectfully because you EARNED respect, then you are allowing to be treated disrespectfully when you don't earn it, correct?

If you act disrespectful, then you are allowing yourself to punish yourself and others, given the dynamic you live...the very premise...of earning love, earning punishment, deserving from serving...what do you deserve from being served, then?

Thank you for listing "linked behavior" which was a very subtle thing in my marriage by my DH. This passive aggressive action was his mode of escaping blame...because I had said, "When you walk away from me, I feel ignored, abandoned." So he chose to do the 180 and not leave a room until I did, a car, etc., which was him making him do this, in his perception, and certainly didn't aid him in enforcing boundaries when I AO'd.

Removing blame from our marriage by removing it as a concept, a belief that it exists, within myself, helped me in my intent to live respectfully. I used to blame H for his withdrawal, his silent treatment, as a reflection of something I caused...which disrespected his choice to withdraw. When I did this, H stopped withdrawing. His choice. Mine was to stop myself from DJing that his anger, pain, fear and frustration were being caused by me, as if I were in control of what I couldn't be, and therefore ensuring I believed I could cure him. I believe the concept of blame leaves with getting our realities straight.

LA

Dear LA,

Thank you for your in-depth reply. My wife and I had a somewhat healing discussion, and then she walked out of the door while leaving our discussion hanging. I called her on her cell-phone and said that it's simply not OK for her to just leave while we're talking. I think she held the phone away from her ear, which is what she does to her mother (who abused her and who still abuses her). So, she didn't hear what I had to say.

I don't understand the following acronymns:
DM
DJ
FWW
FWH
EA/PA

...I guess I don't understand the signatures on this forum. I searched a bit, but couldn't find the explanations. Maybe I'm missing the page.

I guess I just don't think it's OK for me to have to enforce my boundaries in my marriage. I always thought that when you love someone, you just don't cross their boundaries, as a matter of fact, you do everything you can to have a great relationship. You talk, you find out what the person likes and doesn't like. You do the things the person likes, you don't do the things the person dislikes. Easy.

If you have to do something that's challenging for you, well, you do it, you learn from it, and you move forward happily.

But to have to "enforce" my own boundaries? Sounds like something you only need to do if your partner violates you intentionally or otherwise.

I've found myself saying things like "I will speak with you in kindness, however, I am going to leave now, I will not hear or speak in an angry tone."

It has worked a few times, but I think my wife gets vengeful, she then does what she can to make me mad. She wants to get me mad so that she can blame me for displaying an angry tone myself. It just seems so childish, so immature. Today, I said "if you call me difficult one more time, I will separate from you for seven days." She didn't call me difficult again, so I guess that worked...but how awful to need to say something like that. She called me difficult, because she basically made false statements about my feelings, said that I feel this way I feel that way, then she started drawing conclusions and making decisions based on the feelings that she was projecting onto me. When I told her that her description of my feelings was inaccurate, she called me difficult.

I own my own feelings. She does not get to criticize me for feelings I don't even have and then run around insisting that I have those feelings.

The whole acknowledge and validate thing...it's hard to keep it up when your partner has a difficult time reciprocating.

Also, when trying to set up boundaries, it's as if my wife marches all over my boundaries whenever she knows I'm "trapped," if you will. For example, if I'm working from home that day. Where am I supposed to go? All of my files are here, the food I like is here, my computer is here.

A fake solution would be "get mobile, get laptop..." but some of the things I do require files, papers, etc. I can make myself mobile occasionally, but I need to plan for that. Wouldn't it be better to just have a marriage that's mutually supportive and enjoyable?

Today, I feel destroyed. In general, I think my wife and I get along pretty well actually. What really hurts is that I feel so alone with our marital difficulties. On the outside, my guess is that we are a very positive couple. I told a cousin of mine a little bit about our marital difficulties, and he was shocked. So was my sister. And I've only told them a tiny bit of what I feel I've experienced.

My wife just called, and she seems to have come to her senses. Sorry to put it that way, but she had a kind tone and was reasonable.

Oddly enough, there was a gas leak below us earlier today. We argued. She left. I had some project people come over, and one of the project folks noticed the smell of gas. Fire department, gas company, everybody out of the building...the whole thing.

Turns out some nut was emptying a propane canister on his balcony!

Maybe we were oxygen deprived!

Seriously.

I pray for all marriages currently experiencing difficulties. I pray that the difficulties transform into wonderous fulfillment.

Peace,
D--

D,

Thank you for reading my long posts.

DM - My typo for "D--"
DJ - Disrespectful Judgment - a Love Buster
FWW - Formerly Wayward Wife
FWH - Formerly Wayward Husband
EA/PA - EA is Emotional Affair/PA is Physical Affair

There is an acronym list at the top of the Infidelity: Just Found Out forum (not easy to find)

"I guess I just don't think it's OK for me to have to enforce my boundaries in my marriage. I always thought that when you love someone, you just don't cross their boundaries, as a matter of fact, you do everything you can to have a great relationship. You talk, you find out what the person likes and doesn't like. You do the things the person likes, you don't do the things the person dislikes. Easy."

Did you have personal boundaries before you were married? With coworkers, family of origin, friends, acquaintances and strangers?

"I own my own feelings. She does not get to criticize me for feelings I don't even have and then run around insisting that I have those feelings."

For my own clarity, does this mean that she does not get to critize you for feeling you do have, also?

Are you both still in MC (marital counseling)?

Could you elaborate on this? ". My wife and I had a somewhat healing discussion, and then she walked out of the door while leaving our discussion hanging."

You said "had a somewhat healing discussion" and I read that as complete...and then you say she walked out leaving the discussion hanging?

Boundaries aren't about changing her behavior...so when you say, "it worked a few times" or "she didn't say difficult again" I'm not hearing your stuff...are you doing these boundary enforcements for you or to make her stop doing something?

In counseling, were you advised to stop fixing her stuff? All of it? No job advice, no fixing her feelings, thoughts or beliefs?

I think you referred to it as you seeing you're good at helping her (not the cleaning, providing stuff).

How has the sleeping and her waking you changed?

Did you read "His Needs, Her Needs" "Love Busters" and "Fall in Love, Stay in Love"?

"I guess I just don't think it's OK for me to have to enforce my boundaries in my marriage. I always thought that when you love someone, you just don't cross their boundaries, as a matter of fact, you do everything you can to have a great relationship. You talk, you find out what the person likes and doesn't like. You do the things the person likes, you don't do the things the person dislikes. Easy."

How long have you been married? Does that doing everything you can to have a great relationship include sacrificing for one another?

I didn't see where you answered Myschae about asking your wife what her idea of marriage, how she imagined it would be...what is her expectation?

Would you consider that listen and repeating (the summarizing your counselor had you do) is hard to keep up if you're doing it so you will be heard, rather than doing it so you hear clearly? If you're doing it for you, it's much easier than if you're doing it to get a certain response and you don't get that response, I believe.

Why would someone empty a propane cannister? Am I clueless here...or don't you just return them?

LOL...I like your oxygen deprived theory very much. That and crazy neighbors in the building?

Another thought I had was looking into Imago therapy...I think there are websites about it...Others here have more knowledge, but the premise, as explained to me, is that the partners we choose to marry are because we are working out issues from our family of origin (FOO) with them...I think it includes combinations of people from our family, working on issues within a relationship because that's where those issues began...in our first relationships.

My DH and I discovered a lot of behaviors we didn't realize we were doing, or how they were being perceived, straight from our FOO. Really helped me to see him separate from my perception and for him to see me as separate as we identified a lot of the players in our marriage...when it's really just for the two of us.

I can tell you that your expectation for how marriage should be is outside my experience before MB. You crave acceptance from your wife, and I don't see you posting how much you accept her. My counselor said whatever I was wanting most was a signal to what I was giving the least.

Really popped my eyes at that one...resonated like a bell inside me.

We took 16 years of our marriage and a lot of horrible stuff to get to thriving...part of our journey, I believe, which got us here.

No simple answers in a human marriage--a union of two very complex human beings.

LA

Thanks for the continued correspondence. I appreciate it.

The acronymn list helps put things together when re-reading these posts. I still need to look up DH.

I'd like to pull out a few quotes and discuss them:


Other people around me criticize themselves, and I try to help them not be so harsh towards themselves. In a way, I feel like I've been drained. Sure, I have a few negative thoughts here and there, but in general, I have a nice self-image. I have some weak points, and I try to share those with my wife. When I do, she generally yells at me. Recently, things have turned towards the better. She's started reciprocating the listening that I do for her.

If I'm weak at enforcing a personal boundary (possibly self judgement), then isn't that all the more reason for my wife to bolster me, to say "hey, you're not being very nice to yourself by thinking/saying XYZ, and I think you're great!"

Isn't that what we're on this earth to do? To help and love each other?

I have no idea how to enforce this boundary. I feel that my wife does to me what I simply cannot allow myself to do to others (roommates, friends, etc.). What's interesting is that she never did those things to me while we were dating, even when we were engaged. It's like marriage was her excuse to start abusing me.

It's taken a lot of time for me to clarify that certain boundaries, in my mind, are classified as physical abuse. For example, not letting me go to sleep when I want to is not my being "impatient," it's her physically abusing me, and her behavior thereby determines the happiness in our marriage.

Yes, I let her trounce all over me, if that's what she chooses to do. She has to live with herself and what her actions are doing to me.

Results gained through fighting are non-results. Who cares if she cleans the dishes because I yelled? It doesn't matter anymore, she didn't clean the dishes because she wants to have a happy home and a good marriage. Who cares if she comes to bed because I've demanded it? It doesn't matter, because she hasn't come to bed because I'm sleepy, because she loves me and she wants me to be well rested.

So, she is completely free to hurt me...and she does in many ways.

I have to be open to her. Otherwise, we aren't really married.


I guess I've always just allowed people to drift in and out of my life. I've had some negative experiences with the kind of people who choose to take advantage of others. They've treated me very badly, and hence, I've had one particular very bad relationship. I've also had isolated problems with supervisors or authority figures who've just decided to "hate" me. I have a situation with an authority figure right now, and she is in the position to fire me from a good position. I'm doing excellent work, and she told me that she's unhappy with my "results," but she won't look at my work. Honestly, she won't even look at my work. She's basing her perception of my "results" on what a competing external consultant whose position is threatened is telling her.

So, now and then, I come across someone who is just seething with negativity or anger, and it sometimes gets heaped onto me. Fortunately, I've learned that, in general, those people are heaping their negativity and anger onto everyone else as well, and I'm not alone in my suffering "under" that person. So, great, I've learned that sometimes sharing my perceptions about another person can be very positive. I generally find out "oh, God, he/she did that to you too? Man, he/she did this to so and so and did that to me, and whooo, I don't think that person will be working at this University/Company/Organization for long, except that ..."

So, yes, somewhere inside, I've made it a point to simply not enforce my own "boundaries," and to thereby only attract the kinds of poeple who can live with looking in the mirror regarding how they are treating me.

So, maybe that attracts two kinds of people: a) really wonderful, sparkling, friendly, giving people, and b) really base people who could care less how they treat another human being.

Interestingly, I'm doing better at getting rid of the b's in my life. Also, there are borderline people, and there are wonderful people who sometimes exhibit very negative characteristics.



What I mean here is that she can't define my feelings, and then blame me for them.

Something like:
W: You just want dinner to be on time, and when it's not the way you want it, you get mad. You're being a dictator. Critical and demanding!
H: I want changes in plans to be communicated...
W: ...and you're not happy with the food
H: I'm happy with the food, I love the food, I love...
W: So you just want things to be on time.
H: ...it's not about the time, yes the time would...
W: And if it's not on time you're mad.
H: That's not at all how I think.

[I may as well give this one a happy ending]

W: You're just upset all the time
H: I'm not upset at all, well, sure I'm a little bit upset, but that's not the point
W: There is no point here.
H: Sure there's a point.
W: There is no point, leave me alone
H: I don't feel understood
W: You just need things to be at a particular time.
H: I can understand how you would think that, especially when I said "are we going to eat, it's 7:30 and you said we'd eat at 6, I'm pretty hungry." Maybe you thought I was mad, but I was just hungry. That's why I started eating some carrots.
W: I can make something in 20 minutes
H: That's great, OK, yes I feel neglected that you promised to have dinner ready at 6, and then you didn't. Also, I don't really like food that was made in a rush, and I really don't understand why you were sitting and reading a magazine for the last 2 hours...I didn't say anything in order to give you a chance to meet your promise to me, but you just sat there. Why did you do that?
W: I don't know, I just wasn't thinking about anything
H: Can you understand how that would hurt me?
W: Yes, and I don't want to hurt you.
H: I know you don't want to hurt me.
W: Want to keep talking while I make dinner?
H: OK.
W: So it's not about the timing of the dinner?
H: No it isn't, it's about communicating changes and respecting the other person's needs, feelings, wants, etc.
W: So what you're saying is that, if there's a change, then you find it respectful for the person making the change to communicate it to the other partner?
H: That's exactly what I'm saying.
W: And that's what hurt you, because I was sitting on the couch reading when I said that I was going to have dinner ready at 6?
H: Exactly.
W: And you aren't just forcing me to go to the kitchen and make food for you because you're an a--hole?
H: Uhh, no, not at all.
W: ...and you're willing to cook now and then?
H: I'm glad to cook now and then, and I like to know about a day or two in advance. If I know two days in advance, then I can make something special.
W: Really?
H: Yes. I think you felt like I was insisting you make dinner, but I was really hurt that you promised something and then didn't keep that promise...and the broken promise wouldn't even be a broken promise if you had said something like "you know, dinner will be at 7:30, not at 6, like I said, I got wrapped up in reading, and maybe you can eat a snack to tide you over, we have some great organic carrots..."
W: So it's really about the promise and the related communication?
H: Yes, that's exactly what it's about, and I love to food you prepare, I really do, it's always made with so much love and care.
W: You're the greatest
H: No, you're the greatest!
W: You're the double greatest!
H: Yes, yes I am, and you're the most beautiful woman ever!
W: You better stop it, or no one is going to be doing any eating...
H: Does nibbling ears count as eating?

[fill in the rest!]

It took a while to get to the happy ending, but basically, I feel like my wife defines my feelings a lot without checking for accuracy. She runs off an emotional cliff based on her assumptions of what my feelings are. I do whatever I can to correct her understanding of my feelings, but often, she doesn't listen. Then, when I tell her that her summary of my feelings is wrong, she'll get mad. In the dialog above, things worked out well, and that's what I intend for our now and our future.

The last counselor we saw was pretty immature. She was overwhelmed just by our explanation of what we've been through. She asked us how we coped!

So, we have some tapes and workbooks, and they are helping. I pray and meditate a lot, and my wife is much more able to listen and respond. So, we're in sort of an off-and-on counseling situation at church.

More than 3 years, less than 10. I guess, unfortunately, I've sacrificed a lot in our marriage. Maybe that needs to change.


I listen and repeat. I summarize to her satisfaction...she likes it and she's used to it. She gets very frustrated when her summaries of my thoughts aren't right from the outset. She cuts my thoughts short, offers a quick solution, and gets upset when she hasn't understood something I've said. So, our conversations have been very one way. She'll even say in counseling that she feels understood by me. Also, I really do listen, care, and do everything I can to see things from her perspective.

So, now, I intend for listening, caring, and understanding to be reciprocated.

Every once in a while, especially recently, my Wife has "allowe" me to say "well, that's not quite how I feel, what I feel is this, and what I think is that." And then, the miracle has started happening, instead of yelling at me and getting frustrated, she has said "so what you're trying to say is xyz," and we've gone back and forth a few times...and then...she actually does understand.

It hasn't happened that often, but it's happening more and more, and that's what I intend for our marriage from now on.

I'll look into Imago.


When you give without getting, at some point, you try to solve the problem by ceasing to give. When you give without wanting anything in return, it feels wonderful, until you look around and realize that everything has been taken away from you. Instead of being kind, you are a fool. You have nothing, your credit is shot, and you face the contempt of people who don't see the reasons for your situation, but who just judge based on current circumstance.

The Universe tends to balance things, and I've received from other sources, which has been great. I wish for my marriage to be balanced...to be whole and wonderful.

It's friendly for the Universe to coordinate a gift for me, kind words from others. I accept those gifts and kind words, and I wish for the Universe to add those kinds words to my vocabulary for my wife, and to her vocabulary for me.

In a way, I see my wife as a recovering addict. She didn't show her addiction until we got married. She was abused, and now, she's faced it. She let go a lot of the past resonances when she visited with her family, and it's been wonderful for our marriage.

It's also OK for me to be right about a few things. There's a difference between someone who insists on being right all the time, and someone who would like a few of the things he's said to be acknowledged as viable and beautiful and helpful. Also, I intend to exude and express my good intentions for my wife and for my marriage. I wish and hope for her to accept that I have good intentions, but I now release myself of any obligation to convince her.

This morning was tough. She is teaching a mini-class here at home. We got up a bit late. She started stomping around and throwing clothes on the floor.

The class is over. I just tried to tell her that I find hurried stomping and disrespect of our property to be negative behavior. She couldn't hear me or listen to me.

My take is: OK, we have this much time, you do this, I'll do that, and everything will be great. My wife's take is: everything is frustrating and difficult, and I'm going to throw our jackets on the floor in the bedroom, because I'm in a hurry. My take is: for goodness sake, just open the closet and place the jackets there, or give them to me and I'll do it.

I tried to talk with her, and now she said she's hungry and about to faint.

OK, well. Fine, she's hungry and about to faint.

I was in the bedroom during the class. I picked up the jackets and put them away nicely. Then, while writing this post, I realized that I'm "fixing her negative behavior." So, I just took the jackets and purses and threw them back onto the floor. I didn't do it in anger, it's just that I'm done with cleaning up her messes.

It gets to be a problem when others see her mess and assume it's my mess. I intend for her to realize it's our mess. Ours. She can choose to deny my invitation to friendly, loving communication. She can choose to deny my invitation to a life of laughs, giggles, trips, etc.

I also don't want to bribe her...I wish that trips, giggles and laughs weren't necessary to "convince" her. So, forget the bribes.

I invite her to join my on a journey of fun, kindness, adventure, and healing!

Best,
D--

I guess I've seen this forum as an outlet for all of my complaints. My complaints weren't heard in my marriage, so I came here. My thoughts, feelings, opinions, preferences, needs, etc. weren't validated or heard.

Can I accept and love my wife for who she is, and still not agree with her choices? Can I accept her and love her for who she is and think she's making mistakes regarding her thoughts, her career, her opinion of me, her opinion of our marriage, her opinion of what is necessary to make money, her opinion of how to treat another person?

What if I see her be really critical and rude to another person? I guess I'm supposed to say "I love you, and I thought you were really rude to Charles." or "I love you, and in my opinion, you treated that hot dog vendor like he was a worthless human being. Maybe he is a recovering alcoholic, maybe he lost his wife in an accident, maybe he did some bad things and he's trying to put his life back together, maybe he doesn't need you yelling at him about putting the wrong mustard on the hot dog. You could have just told him nicely and I'm sure he would have made you another hot dog."

So, that's a pretty good example, actually. My wife treats a stranger rudely, I feel called to say something, so I do.

What should I do? Should I just smile and pretend like I didn't see my wife act rudely to someone? Often, she won't see that people are treating her the way she's treating them, and am I just supposed to be out of that loop?

I've done a decent job of stepping out of that loop, actually, it's just that I'm sometimes embarrassed by my wife's behavior. Actually, embarrassment is a core emotion I feel regarding our marriage.

Embarrassed by the difference between where I know we would both be, if my feelings, preferences, thoughts, needs, and emotions were considered as much as hers are. Also, yes, I'd like to be able to help my wife adjust her negative views of our future and it's been working.

She's been letting me in. She's been considering my thoughts, and we are in financial recovery. She's agreed to keep track of her expenses, something she refused to do before. She's listened to some of the things I've said, and she's taken them into consideration.

Honestly, I don't think these years needed to be as bad as they were, and that hurts. I feel if my wife had just listened to my intentions instead of negating and castrating and defeating and stomping and yelling...well, things would have been a lot better.

And, as I said before, it's OK for me to be right about a few things. She's yelling less, she's stomping less, and well, it give me room to concentrate on me. I can actually think a little bit about my behavior, because she's not yelling at me all the time.

So, how can one accept and love another person fully, but not accept particular behaviors? Is that possible?

I love a lot of what my wife does, but am I to love her yelling at me? Her negating my thoughts that we can have a wonderful life together?

Is it conditional love to say "I love you, but I don't love being yelled at?"

Is she testing my boundaries, showing me her worst worst worst self, to see if I really love her? OK, well, I still love her. I'm hurt by her choice to test me in that fashion instead of just having a blast together, but it seems like she's coming around.

With the few changes she's made, I've been able to relax a bit and work. I've been able to bring in more money. I have good projects I'm working on that are positioned to succeed. She's relented with her constant demands of my time, and I can work on my projects. She sees the literal payoff...oh, if I let him work, he'll earn, and then we'll have money. If I stop criticizing him all the time, it will be easier for him to work, earn, rest, and everything will be happier.

So, all in all, things are much much better.

The direction of our marriage is good. I can now look at myself, but I guess she really was the "hurt bird." I didn't know how hurtful her upbringing really was...

Best,
D--

Hi again, D!

"I still need to look up DH." Dear Husband.

I think you really got to something important here:

"Other people around me criticize themselves, and I try to help them not be so harsh towards themselves."

So, when they are putting themselves down, you tell them not to...very similar to you not feeling heard by your wife. Can you see that? If someone puts themselves down, you disrespect them when you believe you can help them to not be so harsh on themselves. That's their choice. You can listen and repeat, so they hear how harsh they sound, validate you heard them...state you don't seem them the same way without refuting.

"In a way, I feel like I've been drained."

I believe feeling drained is a signal to you; putting your energy where you have no control.

"Sure, I have a few negative thoughts here and there, but in general, I have a nice self-image. I have some weak points, and I try to share those with my wife. When I do, she generally yells at me."

Would that be telling you that you're being harsh on yourself in a harsh way? Can you see how you doing this to others is the same as her doing it to you?

"Recently, things have turned towards the better. She's started reciprocating the listening that I do for her."

Super!! Acknowledging is awesome.

"If I'm weak at enforcing a personal boundary (possibly self judgement), then isn't that all the more reason for my wife to bolster me, to say "hey, you're not being very nice to yourself by thinking/saying XYZ, and I think you're great!"

Really? You think she should bolster you? Change what you're thinking...your feeling weak, or bad, or confused? Because you do that for others (and feel drained), you believe she should do it for you. To be respectful, she would acknowledge and repeat what she heard you say, maybe add, "I feel a little fear when you kick yourself this hard. I know what you do to you, you'll do to me."

That's the truth of boundaries and standards. Telling YOURSELF that's not who I want to be...if I self-punish, I will punish others; if I self-respect, I will do so to others. My choice.

Good to know you have this expectation of others...that they will reciprocate in the same way what you do for them.

"Isn't that what we're on this earth to do? To help and love each other?"

There was a Ziggy cartoon in the papers back in the 70's, where he said, "If we're here to help others, what are the others here for?"

I remember that because I laughed and thought...and didn't get it, either. If everyone on the planet was made by the hand of God, created whole, complete and wonderful...their true selves...all are capable of what he said they were responsible for...their thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives...all theirs. That being their province, their truth. Their actions are in the province of The Truth...the rest, well, is their own truth.

Which means, what you choose to believe is your own...and if you believe you should have control over how others feel about themselves. That means you're willing to hold a mirror up for them, defining them through your eyes, and this is how every human on the planet begins their life...with a caretaker's mirror...where we can't tell where we end and our caretaker begins...through infancy and into our two's and three's...we begin learning our physical boundaries, even as we begin determining our mental and emotional ones...wait! If Mom is sad, I'm sad. If Mom is angry, I'm made her...and breaking away from this, to identify we are separate beings, not one, is a tumultous process. When we enter adult relationships, especially marriage, with the advent that two shall become one...well, that can go right back to our beginnings...you lift me up, I lift you up...which we work hard at during Phase I because it appears to be win/win...the right way to live.

Then comes Phase II of marriage...when we begin to share our true selves, which is an act of commitment to intimacy...true intimacy is knowing ourselves and sharing what we know with our spouses...that's when the lifting up quits working, because our truth can certainly take another person down, instead, even though we're sharing our feelings...the other person now feels responsible for feelings because we gave them that responsibility when we permitted ourselves to believe THEY were the reason we were lifted up...

And it falls down...way down...when we rely on others to manage our feelings, through mirrors, where we have no control...when our feelings are our very own, they are valid; information about us to us...

"I have no idea how to enforce this boundary."

You are NOT alone...first is to make your boundaries...which are around you, about you. They come from your standards (which is what you do not permit yourself to do to others)...so you have balance. Others do...they choose their actions, just like you do. You cannot control their choices, ever. So, when they cross your boundary (you do not allow yourself to lie to others and they just lied to you), then you have PREDETERMINED, progressive boundary enforcements. Their lies have to do with actions...they didn't take out the trash and they said they did...not feelings...they told you they didn't feel happy...and then they did...that's not a lie. First determine the source of the lie...then act on it.

Usually, statements are first. Your choice. "I know you lied about the trash." They do it again. "I know you are lying about the trash and I feel angry and ignored." Third, "I do not believe you when you say you've done something. I will do the trash." (Your choice is to either do the trash yourself or to not care if it gets emptied or not. If you choose to do the trash yourself, you must only do so if you know you're doing it because YOU can't stand it...not because they repeatedly lied. Doing it as you create resentment each time corrodes yourself, not others.

"I feel that my wife does to me what I simply cannot allow myself to do to others (roommates, friends, etc.). What's interesting is that she never did those things to me while we were dating, even when we were engaged. It's like marriage was her excuse to start abusing me."

Phase I is dating, engaged and early years of married...it varies...Phase II is where a lot of marriages fall apart because it feels like bait and switch--and it isn't. Best foot forward in Phase I, isn't a trick. That best foot is still part of the whole of our partners...the rest is part of the package, same for you and for her...if you only married your wife because of what she did for you, then you're the abuser, aren't you? We marry our partners for all of them...their essence...and their choice to love us and our choice to love them...equals. If it is more like a job that you hired your partner for, to fill your niches...then that's not love, is it? It's function, reward for effort, having nothing to do with being...and we are human beings.

So in Phase I, that's where you're at...as time passes, events are gone through together, it is an act of trust and love to reveal more of who we really are...our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions...which is sharing all of ourselves...and becomes dangerous when the partner believes they have been bamboozled. Our two clean, shiny slates get built up with grime -- resentment, wounds, pain, disappointment, fear...because we are together, in the marriage, and both are piling that gunk on. If I earned my DH's love through my consideration and attention, and when I became less considerate or attentive, then I was failing my partner...maybe because I saw him failing my expecations...which is where that earning love turns into a downward spiral...and I no longer feel love from or to my DH...because my love bank is depleted and so is his...and I withhold my truth and he withholds his because we believed each other caused the other to feel certain ways...when it was us, about us...

Harley points out that our love comes on full force when we choose to do loving acts from our choice to love...which helps us fill our own love banks...when we do less and less, we help drain ours and block our spouses from getting their deposits in there...by focusing on what they AREN'T doing only...trying to get what we think we want in the way we want it, when we want it.

When couples split, they suddenly realize A LOT of love bank deposits were going on--they now feel the loss of them--but because the discounted or dismissed...well, they missed.

Look at what your wife IS doing...she is now listening...you're being heard!!

You're listening, too...

You continue to tell others what not to do to themselves...then you will hear your wife doing that to you...and you won't have permission to stop her. You have to stop first to enforce that boundary.

"It's taken a lot of time for me to clarify that certain boundaries, in my mind, are classified as physical abuse. For example, not letting me go to sleep when I want to is not my being "impatient," it's her physically abusing me, and her behavior thereby determines the happiness in our marriage."

Again, others here have given you great advice on this subject. Takes stating directly, "I believe you are physically abusing me by disturbing myself. Either you choose to come to bed when I do and rest, getting us on a similar schedule, or you stay out of our bedroom until I get up in the morning. I need you to respect my need for sleep to work and meet your EN for FS. You working a similar schedule would greatly meet my need for sleep and EN for FS, also."

The other options...you take a sleeping pill so you don't awaken when she comes to bed. You move out. Enforcements are progressive...each time they are crossed.

"Yes, I let her trounce all over me, if that's what she chooses to do. She has to live with herself and what her actions are doing to me."

Good to know you now see where you are choosing this trouncing...that's progress...and there's a payoff in it...it's false...so find it. We all live with ourselves, period. You cannot enforce a boundary around her, her behavior...only your own.

"Results gained through fighting are non-results. Who cares if she cleans the dishes because I yelled? It doesn't matter anymore, she didn't clean the dishes because she wants to have a happy home and a good marriage. Who cares if she comes to bed because I've demanded it? It doesn't matter, because she hasn't come to bed because I'm sleepy, because she loves me and she wants me to be well rested."

You didn't make her do the dishes because you yelled...she then CHOSE herself to do the dishes...so it matters just the same, doesn't it? What your perception did was to drain her choice away because you choose to believe you can MAKE her do stuff, thus, negate her choice and the love deposit which is possible from her choice. Your perception did that, because it's not reality...we can't make others do stuff...so do you want to live in reality or fantasy?

There's a big difference between a Selfish Demand and a Boundary...one demands that the other person change; a boundary demands that YOU change. You yell, you're abusive. You are AOing and that's hugely disrespectful. If she doesn't do the dishes which she agreed to do...and your boundary is to speak, "You lied when you said you would do the dishes. You know (because you've stated your top ENs, D) that DS (Domestic Support) is my top EN. I feel unloved and disrespected when you lie about what you are willing to do for our marriage."

Still doesn't do the dishes, "I won't stop doing my acts of love for you just because you're not doing them for me. I will, however, box up all the dirty dishes, glasses and all, and replace them with paper only. Cups, saucers, the works. That's how important this issue is to me. How do you feel about that?"

"So, she is completely free to hurt me...and she does in many ways."

You're a human in a human relationship...I would love to hear all the ways you hurt her, too...equal this out, D...ain't no one-way street.

You already told me a severe way you injure above. Tell me more.

"I have to be open to her. Otherwise, we aren't really married."

This belief that you are only married when you act married is debilitating to intimacy. All that grime build up can lead to acting like you aren't...and that's when it's crucial to KNOW and state reality, you are.

Intimacy is a life journey for us, I believe. Since it takes YOU knowing about yourself, D...and sharing it...how are you doing with that? I see you demanding the rule of protection from your wife...I don't see you giving it? If you cannot protect her from the resentment YOU create within yourself, you are doing daily harm to your marriage, aren't you?

What do you do with the c) people? Those are the ones who at times are generous, postive, sad, angry, fearful, frustrated, do harm, do healing, laugh and stay present with you, being themselves and respect you for being yourself...and then stress out, revert, don't feel you hear them, withhold, withdraw from you, then clear out their stress and are generous, positive, sparkling people...at times.

The whole of people doesn't give you any room to eliminate them...because you're connecting to them at a time, place, space in their life that is right now...doesn't say what they will think, feel or how they will act later...just as those who have no eliminated YOU from their lives...because they know all of you...your essence...and accept you...just don't like some of your actions; they state when your actions hurt them, how you crossed their boundary and what their enforcements are...and then you reconnect...

I guess that's what you meant by borderline people.

So I hear you answering me by saying no, you didn't have boundary enforcements prior to now...which is great, because then you and your wife can learn about them together...another act of intimacy and sharing...because people who know and enforce boundaries rarely marry people who don't know about them.

"What I mean here is that she can't define my feelings, and then blame me for them."

Yes, she can. It's a love buster and her choice, but she can. All humans can abuse others...they have that power...even as all humans can choose how they react to abuse...either with boundary enforcements or returning the abuse. Our choice.

"Something like:
W: You just want dinner to be on time, and when it's not the way you want it, you get mad. You're being a dictator. Critical and demanding!"

"I hear you saying that you believe my EN is not only to have dinner, but on time and in the way I want it, or I retaliate with angry, is that correct? You see me as dictorial, critical and demanding of you, is that correct?"

This puts her perception firmly over there...and allows you to consider...hey, is this a signal? If I have an EN for admiration, do I dictate how she is to fill it? How much, how often, in what way and time?

"H: I want changes in plans to be communicated...
W: ...and you're not happy with the food
H: I'm happy with the food, I love the food, I love...
W: So you just want things to be on time.
H: ...it's not about the time, yes the time would...
W: And if it's not on time you're mad.
H: That's not at all how I think."

Because you didn't strictly listen and repeat to begin with, the twisting comes in...and yes, it's abusive. She's trying to PROVE her perception...and our own truths cannot be proved...they are valid...they are ours...they are not THE truth, which is proved through actions. As long as you are not twisted in your own perceptions, you will see this exchange as less twisted if you lovingly detach instead of react.

So, tell me...is meeting the EN her preparing dinner at any time between 4pm and 10pm? Preparing it at all, any time; or does the preparation matter as well as the time? Meaning, if she slaps something together in five minutes that has less love deposits than a three-course meal?

And if her preparing dinner at a certain time was imperative to meet the RC EN and over ran into your RC time with her...does that one EN cancel out the other? Does it end up a total withdrawal from your love bank?

"W: You're just upset all the time"

H: "OUCH! That's a DJ. If you continue defining me, I will have to remove myself from our conversation for 20 minutes."

"H: I'm not upset at all, well, sure I'm a little bit upset, but that's not the point"

You just lied and the unlied...is that possible?

"W: There is no point here."

H: "That's abusive. I will return in 20 minutes to continue this conversation when you stop DJing."

"H: Sure there's a point." By not doing what I just answered, YOU escalate the abuse through refuting.

"W: There is no point, leave me alone"

Well, in my scenario, you aren't around for this...so pretend this is you coming back after 20 minutes and this is the first thing she says:

"W: There is no point, leave me alone"

H: "We both have ENs, DW (dear wife). That's my point. My stuff is my point. I am not angry with you and very much value you sharing that you perceive I am...I am angry with myself right now. I feel frustrated that I made these plans with such a tight time schedule. I am not angry with you."

"H: I don't feel understood" (go further...dismissed, discounted...defined)

Excellent.

"W: You just need things to be at a particular time.
H: I can understand how you would think that, especially when I said "are we going to eat, it's 7:30 and you said we'd eat at 6, I'm pretty hungry." Maybe you thought I was mad, but I was just hungry. That's why I started eating some carrots."

This is more refuting and does not address her point. She is saying the exact same thing she said at the beginning...is it true that for her to meet your EN, she must do the EN in a certain way, at a certain time? Information she needs to know before she decides to meet this EN or not...all the trappings...she is asking for your truth.

"W: I can make something in 20 minutes
H: That's great, OK, yes I feel neglected that you promised to have dinner ready at 6, and then you didn't."

Great sharing...can you see where from your OWN expectation, in part you felt neglected. And that isn't neglect when someone states they will do something at one time, they don't, and then they still haven't done it and a fight ensues...it's lying, not neglecting. It's passive aggressive. However...you both have been together long enough to know this stuff...she KNOWS time matters with you...she did it on purpose. She wants to hurt you. Know this. And know you do things intentionally to rile her...find them and own them. That's how we grow through in marriage...

"Also, I don't really like food that was made in a rush, and I really don't understand why you were sitting and reading a magazine for the last 2 hours"

And during the two hours you were not speaking...saying at 6:05pm..."Hey, I heard you promised to have dinner ready at 6pm. I am hungry and I'm sitting here resenting you because I believed you really would do it."

You didn't state your stuff...know that.

This is the P/A behavior setup...to make her look like the bad guy and you look like the victim...and she does stuff to make you look like the bad guy and her the victim. Toxic dance. If you stop yourself, the dance ends.

Did you notice you added a condition to your EN? Time, dinner and not made in a rush...I have to wonder how many more requirements you hide within your EN...

"...I didn't say anything in order to give you a chance to meet your promise to me, but you just sat there. Why did you do that?"

Yu began monitoring, judging her...that's a lie you tell yourself...giving her a chance...know this and realize that due to your requirements, the time, the way, you believed she broke her promise when the clock passed 6.

Why questions are abusive.

Ask yourself why you sat for two hours in a power struggle of silence? Why did you do that to yourself, to your marriage and your partner? Why are you requiring more from her (being forthright and honest) when you are not?

"W: I don't know, I just wasn't thinking about anything
H: Can you understand how that would hurt me?
W: Yes, and I don't want to hurt you.
H: I know you don't want to hurt me.
W: Want to keep talking while I make dinner?
H: OK.
W: So it's not about the timing of the dinner?
H: No it isn't,"

Oh, getting reconnected...her statement of truth...and then you lie. Ouch.

"it's about communicating changes and respecting the other person's needs, feelings, wants, etc."

She didn't say there were any changes...she didn't tell you why she didn't keep her promise...neither are being honest...you DJ, she DJs...

"W: So what you're saying is that, if there's a change, then you find it respectful for the person making the change to communicate it to the other partner?
H: That's exactly what I'm saying.
W: And that's what hurt you, because I was sitting on the couch reading when I said that I was going to have dinner ready at 6?
H: Exactly.
W: And you aren't just forcing me to go to the kitchen and make food for you because you're an a--hole?
H: Uhh, no, not at all.
W: ...and you're willing to cook now and then?
H: I'm glad to cook now and then, and I like to know about a day or two in advance. If I know two days in advance, then I can make something special.
W: Really?
H: Yes. I think you felt like I was insisting you make dinner, but I was really hurt that you promised something and then didn't keep that promise...and the broken promise wouldn't even be a broken promise if you had said something like "you know, dinner will be at 7:30, not at 6, like I said, I got wrapped up in reading, and maybe you can eat a snack to tide you over, we have some great organic carrots..."
W: So it's really about the promise and the related communication?
H: Yes, that's exactly what it's about, and I love to food you prepare, I really do, it's always made with so much love and care.
W: You're the greatest
H: No, you're the greatest!
W: You're the double greatest!
H: Yes, yes I am, and you're the most beautiful woman ever!
W: You better stop it, or no one is going to be doing any eating...
H: Does nibbling ears count as eating?"

And then we end this scenario with a lot of DJs which you both take as love...oh, my.

See, you can define each other when you LIKE the image their reflecting in the mirror...and then you PUNISH them when they define you when you DO NOT LIKE the image...can't have it both ways...then you are controlling. See the diff?

LA

Basically, you are saying that I am disrespecting people when I believe that I can help them. That's not true. I've helped a lot of people. I help move furniture, I've given advice, I've teamed up with people to make tremendous results. The fundamental belief in helping others is that 1+1 = 1 billion.
Yes, that's true, and I'd like to add that I put my energy into people who simply don't reciprocate. It's also funny how easy it would be to reciprocate. Just a kind word, a sincere smile, but when one is taken advantage of...it's just not fun anymore.

I heard that it's the person being taken advantage of who has the problem, and that it's natural to just use someone, if they allow it. Well, I think we should be more considerate of each other.

My feeling drained might be that I've put so much unreciprocated love into my marriage that I just feel pooped. Also, when my wife ignores, stifles, negates, badgers, etc., it just snatches away the positive energy I've built up for myself.

My wife isn't like that all the time.

Last week, we argued again. Mostly because I was honest with my feelings. At least I was honest.

I said things like: In summary, the most honest way I can describe my feelings is that I feel like I don't matter to you. I also feel violated and ignored.


No, here are some examples:

1) If I'm not feeling great about myself and I mention it to her, she just gets frustrated. I also don't think this happens very often, but I think it's only natural to wish that one's marriage will support an effort to a) build a business

b) heal an illness or c) do something else of personal significance like go to school, or seek some kind of growth. What am I supposed to be, completely emotionless? Cold, brutal, and untalkative? Is that what she wants? So, I try to share my thoughts with her, and it usually doesn't work very well...although we've had a few good discussions.

2) When she does something nice for me, it generally doesn't have anything to do with what I might like. She makes something, or does something, but she doesn't do it in the spirit of knowing me. It's like serving steak to a vegetarian or going to a lecture with someone who likes dancing or sticking a carrot in someone's mouth who wants ice cream (or the other way around).

So in general, what I'm saying is that I am nice about these things. I state my "boundaries" nicely. I don't yell them. But when I state them nicely, my wife doesn't listen to them at all. So now, she's started to trounce all over my "boundaries," she's neglected her career and our standard of living. She's invited some people for Halloween, and of course, I needed to get our place together. Maybe I'm embarrassed about how she keeps our apartment. But she "TOOK OVER" the housework, even though she didn't need to.

I'm perfectly glad to help, and I just have no idea what she does all day. She's not on drugs, she's not an alcoholic, but she seems to just while her time away sitting around.

So, I've heard her talk about her fears, and I've heard her get more motivated to meet people, and she's taken some baby steps with wonderful results. She really is a dynamic, friendly, bouyant, wonderful person. But she's not out there. I can't be the soul source of her entertainment. Basically...where I'm going is that, when I'm nice about things, she tends not to listen. When I yell, she ignores. Then, when I yell like an outright lunatic (like her mother), then she finally listens and gives me the indication "oh, he actually means what he says."

Would it be possible for my wife to realize that I don't like yelling? That I don't like being ignored until I yell? So, in a way, maybe she's trying to "teach" me not to be so nice. What kind of "teaching" is that? What about learning how to be nicer, more loving, more accepting, more abundant, more joyous? Yes, I've had other people step all over me in my life, but they are generally not good people, and they usually disappear from my life. There are some people in this world who are "in it for themselves," at whatever cost to others. Calling them "not good people" might be judgemental, but one can "feel" it oozing out of them. They can put on a pleasant face, but then they lie, cheat, steal, or take advantage of you.

Now it's my wife, and I feel trounced on. At least now she knows it. I don't think she is a "bad person," it's just that I feel taken advantage of in our marriage.


Geeze, all I'm doing is expressing a bit of self doubt at times. Percentages can help here. In certain areas I rarely, if ever feel self-doubt. In other areas, I feel some self-doubt. If I kick myself and show it to my wife, then I'm just saying "I'm not confident in myself here, look, I'm hurting."

About doing what I do to myself to others. In general, I am very good to myself. I have a habit of working too hard and taking too few breaks, which I'm working on. If my wife were participating in family matters (cleaning, earning, planning), then we'd be better off. We've been improving on that level.

I guess where I'm going is that I don't do the worst I do to myself to others -- and I'm not bad to myself. The only way I'm bad to myself is by overgiving to others. I read a quote "love yourself as you love your neighbor," and that one applies to me. From me, others always get love, work, a kind ear, sympathy, solutions, etc. And is it so bad to want my wife to be kind to me? For her to acknowledge when I'd like to go to sleep and for her to actually make it possible for me to do so? If I come home for dinner and she said she'd have it ready, would it be possible for her to have it ready, instead of making me either go get something, cook, or wait? Do you think she might be able to get to the store now and then instead of sending me?

I want a friendly, kind marriage. I want us to learn from each other and grow and have fun. I want to be able to express my thoughts, feelings, ideas, visions, and dreams and have them heard, understood and cared for.

In a way, I'm longing for some of my old friendships, even some of my past relationships with women, because they enjoyed talking with me. They loved my ideas and the way I think. They loved how tender I was with their feelings...and what gets me is that my wife was like that, for the most part, before we were married. It's like we got married and all of a sudden, I'm a tyrant when I express an opinion. Also, we got married and she just stopped doing anything for herself. Also, our marriage certificate is not a "license to insult."

I own my feelings, and I've told my wife my feelings. I understand that she can't "make" me feel a particular way, but there are things that hurt. One can be intentionally hurtful to another person, and my wife does that from time to time.

She thinks she's retaliating...but it seems to me like she's confusing me with her mother. We've been through that...I tell her "I'm not your mother," and the conversation heads back in a positive direction.

So, basically, I don't like the phases you wrote about, and I don't feel like I fit.

We are a we. Society is a we. We cannot be and are not "independent," even people who go off and live in isolation, in a cave or something, even they aren't "independent." Our feelings are our own, however, we are all one.

The Ziggy cartoon is answered by "we are here to help each other." Each other. Reciprocal. Happy. Here, dear Friend, you can't fill that emotional void...? Guess what, I can, let me show you how...see how easy that was? Now you can do it too on your own. Oh, you can't lift that heavy closet...I can, I'm big and strong...here you go. Oh, you can't lift that heavy bookshelf...I'm not as strong as you, but I have a roller cart and a really good brain, I can show you how to lift that heavy bookshelf with nothing but this roller cart and a bit of slick lifting and positioning...you won't even break a sweat. Oh, you're hungry, here's how you grow your own food, then when you've eaten, you can come over and teach me how to sew.

In a way I feel like I've been through the Phase I and II you're talking about...and it feels like I went through them thousands of years ago. I'm ready to just have an abundant and fun life. I want to be able to express my opinions and have them accepted and then build from there. If her opinion is helpful, we'll use that and build from her opinion. Who care's whose opinion it was...we're building a life together.

My wife just seems so wrapped up in power struggles and conflicts and abuse...all from her past. I don't want them. I want her to be kind to me. I want her to be a friend. Also, I do get to be right about something for once. My wife acts as if I were wanting to be right all the time. I don't, I just want to be heard and it really sucks not being heard.

Today was another disaster. My wife has people coming today (a morning children's class). I offered to make her breakfast, clean the bathroom, take out the garbage, do some general tidying, and mop the floor. She rolled her eyes at me and started scoffing. She wouldn't say yes or no...she just got angry at me and wouldn't answer. Before I spoke to her, she was looking at a sheet of paper. I asked her if she could look up from the paper for a moment, so that we could make an agreement. She's done this before. I'll say something to her while she's "doing something," but if she's in a particular mood, then she'll yell at me. No, I don't know that she can't allow her concentration to budge...she can just say "Honey, I need to concentrate on this right now" in a kind tone, but instead, she just yells at me and ignores me (which is the strategy that she used to deal with her abusive mother).

Her mother was abusive, I'm not making that up, confirmed by the church, the priest, the local community where she grew up, her immediate family, etc. It has been a great relief in our marriage that the priest from my wife's community told my wife that her mother should be treated as if she had a mental and emotional handicap. The priest having said that has brought a lot of relief to my wife and to our marriage.

This morning, I was hurt by her not accepting what I was willing to give, what would improve our apartment, what would make things easier for her, so she could prepare for the class, what would make me happier about the presentation of our home...I mean...I'm standing there honestly happily offering to clean. Now she's teaching her class, and I know she hasn't had any breakfast. Great. And what, she's going to blame me? I offered to make her breakfast, she yelled at me, she scoffed at me, she evaded my offers, she just started calling me names and rolling her eyes. Here's a happy husband ready to mop and what...the wife is going to send that husband to ******? What's wrong with her?

Today, my day is practically shot. Yes, it messes up my day. I just don't function well when she yells at me. Yelling was the way to communicate in her Family Of Origin...but it really rips me apart. I can't stand it. It takes me a whole day or two just to recover from the kind of yelling she uses. The only thing I wanted her to do is actually listen and respond to what I said. Is that too much to ask?

How holy am I supposed to get?

She can just ignore me, yell at me, make and break promises, not work, etc., and I'm just supposed to say: "I own my own feelings, and I'm happy no matter what you do, you can't make me feel any way...even if the kitchen floor is a complete tragedy...I'm happy, thank you?" That's what I'm supposed to do?

What about "I'd rather we figured out a way both of us can be happy with the cleanliness of the kitchen floor." Isn't that diplomatic enough? Interestingly, I never had an "all too clean" image of my wife in Phase I.

Regarding the situation where my wife promised to make dinner by 6:00 PM, if I'd said anything at 6:05, she would have called me a dictator. When I say something, I violate her opportunity to do what she promised without coaching. So, when I don't say anything, she at least has the opportunity to make good on her promise, albeit a bit late. It's a lose lose lose situation. She loses, I lose, and our marriage loses.

I don't know what my wife is testing. It seems like she wants to just see whether I'll earn, clean, do the shopping, do household chores, and basically do everything besides cooking. Literally, anything beyond cooking is my responsibility including cleaning up the stove she slops up...and of course cleaning up her dirty pots and pans.

The beginning of the dialog I made up was fairly realistic. The ending wasn't. It was contrived.


We make agreements, I stick to my end of the bargain, but she doesn't stick to hers. Yes, by her breaking agreements, I've been able to uncover some real "Emotional Needs," and I've started being able to voice them. But, in a way, I feel like while taking over the role of housekeeper, breadwinner, kitchen cleaner, etc., I'm also taking over the role of "wife" and "feminine energy" when I really talk about my "Emotional Needs" as such.

I've made it clear to my wife that I don't even want things to descend into "needs." I'd rather leave things in the realm of "preferences" and get excited by "desires." Who needs "need?" They make everyone feel so "needy!"

I don't hide any "additional" requirements, and if in the process of being on the tail end of a Love Buster, or if I somehow feel hurt and then I isolate that there might be an "additional requirement," I'm perfectly happy to express that and realize that the only way the "Emotional Need" could be fulfilled would be "next time," since I've isolated something that my wife didn't know about before. I'm not about to blame my wife or be angry at her for something she didn't know.



I am being honest. It's not about the timing. It's that she didn't say anything to me about not being able to have dinner ready at approximately the time she promised. It's also about when, in my opinion, she should communicate a change in plans.

When she doesn't have dinner ready and there is nothing she feels like cooking at home and I come home...then I'm actually upset that she didn't have the forethought to give me a call and ask me to pick up a few things on the way home from work. If there's plenty of food in the fridge, and there really is no explanation...then well, I just don't get it...OK, it's not about timing...it's about somehow trying to understand why my wife will so dynamically agree to make dinner at 6PM, and then we wind up eating at 9PM. It's also about being able to talk about the situation without my wife yelling, calling me names, attacking, or getting frustrated.

So, I don't care about the timing. I care about the communication. Also, it would make me feel loved, if around 6:00, my wife would just say "hey, I was supposed to make dinner by 6:00..." and then come up with some alternative. It's about being remembered. It's about her actions and words indicating to me that I mean something to her and that my happiness is important to her.

Frankly, dinner and dishes should be no-brainer, super-easy aspects of life. Sorry, but my wife's mother treats dinner like a disaster and an emergency every single day. It's incredible to watch, and my wife seemed to have perspective over her mother's disfunctional behavior before we got married. We got married, and she started modeling her mom. People eat every day. I don't mean to be pedantic here, but it's not complicated. They eat every day. They eat at approximately the same times, if they want to be healthy. Some people think snacking throughout the day is healthy...that's possible too. It's a decision you can make. Just decide and then go with it.

Dinner is not an emergency. Is there any way I can communicate that to my wife? If she she doesn't have what she needs to cook she can go to the store. She can go to the store the day before or a few hours before. It's not a good strategy to wait until 6:30PM and then start cooking when you said you'd have dinner ready at 6:00 PM...also, it's not a good strategy to be shocked by what is or isn't in the refrigerator at 6:30. Even 4:30 is time enough to make adjustments...but 6:00 and after is too late.

Actually there are quite a few real love deposits going on from both ends. My wife has been able to hear a lot of what I've had to say lately. Also, we've reconnected on creating a clearer vision of the kind of home and life we would like. As a result, a number of changes have come about. In a way, I feel that my wife has started to awaken to our abilities to craft our own lives and life together...but her name-calling and ignoring and stabbing, and harsh behavior are very debilitating for me...when she does it, I feel like I can't accomplish anything, and I also feel like accomplishing anything isn't even worth it. It's not that I'm "doing" for recognition, but if you're going to get yelled at no matter what you do, then what's the point?

Also, what's wrong with recognition? When I acknowledge my wife, she feels great. When I acknowledge other people I know, they feel great. On a marriage audio tape, I heard that there are certain people who've received very little affirmation or acknowledgement in their lives. I am going to write it here...these people are often successful, good-looking, and smart. I don't like speaking well of myself, but maybe I should. I am good-looking, successful, and yes, I am smarter than the average bear.

I've won prizes and received recognition for things I've done, and I've even meditated on somehow being wonderful in a way that makes other people feel happy instead of being wonderful in a way that makes others want to bash my face in. Yet, the constant removal of happiness or self-confidence that my wife seems to wish upon me...well...it's working quite well. It often takes me about 30minutes when I leave the house to somehow "reconstruct" the person that I am...to be able to smile at the trees, and to "rebuild" myself as a happy and capable person.

The whole thing is a big huge waste of energy and time. I wish to have a wonderful life and a wonderful career. Certain things can only be accomplished if one has a happy home life.

It just seems like my wife wants to sabotage any progress we might make...maybe she's not comfortable with a clean apartment, plenty of money, fun vacations, and regular mealtimes. Does she really want to argue, live in debt, not let me work or sleep, and cut me down?

So, we took a number of steps back today, and now, instead of working, I'm writing to this forum. But I can't really work...when my wife has stifled or ignored or insulted, I have a really hard time being nice to clients on the phone...I have a really hard time with doing anything that involves contact with other people or any postitive plans I have or we have for our future.

So, I'm really mad at my wife. I feel like her behavior has negatively affected our finances, the cleanliness or our apartment, my career, her career, our life together, and our chances of having a wonderful life together. I've reached out in hundreds of ways to resolve the issue. I've purchased books, suggested and organized counseling, etc. If my wife doesn't start participating in the improvement of our marriage...then what...if I threaten divorce, well, then that's what will happen.

It sucks to feel like threatening divorce might actually do some good. Also, I understand that positive reinforcement is something my wife really needs. She was abused...so she needs positive reinforcemnet...but can't she handle 98% positive reinforcement and 2% well-intended, kindly formulated critique? Now, the 2% critique has built up and built up to the point where I'm overwhelmed with it. And I still express it kindly, amidst tons of praise...and still, she can't handle it...for goodness sake...

Best,
D--

We ask for your prayers in this difficult time. I ask that you pray for healing, happiness, understanding, and abundant joy in our marriage.

I am starting to use my presence as a boundary. When my wife name calls, I just say, "You can talk to me when you're ready to speak in kindness."

I accept my wife for who she is.

Before and on our way to church, my wife was discourteous to me. As a big exception to the rule, I stayed in bed a bit longer than her, she made noises, left the bedroom door open, etc. When I wake up before her (the norm), I walk in my socks, I keep the door closed, and I'm very conscious of the amount of noise I make. I close the doors kindly and lightly.

What is it going to take for her to start treating me with kindness?

I realize that her family of origin had an incredible amount of abuse and disrespect, but my wife was actually fairly considerate of me when we were dating. There were some problems, but she voiced her commitmen to mutually improve and grow together. I believed her. We got married and it changed so drastically.

She consistently makes us late. It's hard to cope with her disrespect towards her friends, my friends, her family, my family...as she tends to disrespect others' time. But, she's aware of it and she has stated many times that she wishes to improve. She has been improving.

Well, this morning, I asked her when she would be ready. She said that her "goal is xyz time." Knowing that she, in a sense, is trying to be slippery without getting herself into a situation where she commits to a time, I said "you know, a 'goal' is fine for now, but in general it's a lot easier to work with a commitment to a time." She said "you're bothering me," in an irritated tone of voice. She did say we could talk on the way to church.

She met her goal, she was ready at her "goal time" and she was happy about it, but seemed very scattered. I praised her, but I just wanted to say that it's harder to understand what time we'd be going somewhere when it's a "goal time" versus something like "I'll be ready between 10:00 and 10:15."

She was so agitated, and she started raising her voice. She also would not address what I was saying.

We've done some Marital Counseling, and we've learned that summarizing each other's thoughts to the other's satisfaction is critical to good communication. I have no problems listening and summarizing until my wife is happy and satisfied that I've understood her.

My wife has very big problems summarizing my statements or thoughts to my satisfaction. She gets very agitated even at the very beginning. She gets uncomfortable during discourse or dialog. If her first guess isn't "right," she'll start negating my statements and stomping her feet.

I don't understand what the big deal is with my being heard and understood in our marriage. My wife just seems to be so incredibly unwilling to take my feelings, thoughts, preferences, needs, or desires into consideration. In many cases, she's adamantly unwilling to do so.

She's made soup for dinner before. Two bowls. I praise the soup, eat the first bowl, then when I see there's only one bowl left for me, I start making myself a sandwich. She starts yelling at me. Isn't the soup good enough? Yes, it's great, I just...Well I made the soup, eat the soup...Ummm, I'm eating the soup, what's wrong with me making a...etc. etc.

I don't get to complete my thoughts, my sentences are cut off before they are finished, she insults, name calls, insists, I summarize, she doesn't, and it just continues.

Well, this morning, all I wanted was for her to say something like "it seems like your saying that when I express a 'goal' to be ready at a particular time, it doesn't sound like a commitment to you, so you feel confused as to what time I'll be ready."

Is that wrong of me?

Is it wrong of me to wish to be heard?

My wife just walked away from me, and I let her. I turned around and went back home.

It was insulting enough also, that because there is a special concert at church today, she was actually walking quickly, which she never does if I want to get somewhere. If something is important to me, she couldn't care less. She walks more slowly than ever, and then complains that I'm not walking with her.

So now, it feels like my Sunday is shot. No relaxation, no day for God, no cleaning, no nothing.

Of course, my wife is used to this. She can take it. This is what her Family of Origin is and was like. She'll likely be able to come home and act like nothing happened. Actually, that's also how her family works...no one discusses anything, the anger just seethes and seethes, but my wife somehow "deals" with it.

I'm getting sick and tired of being the only one "doing" for our marriage as well. I organized counseling, I bought books and CD's, and well...what about her?

If she doesn't care about me or our marriage, then maybe I just need to accept that. I am a very loving person, and I have a lot of friends. My wife has very few friends, although I believe that in her core, she is an incredibly loving and beautiful person.

This thread is the home of many of the most negative things that have surfaced in our marriage.

I pray for this to become easy. I pray for us to be loved and to love each other. She says she loves me, and I believe that she feels a lot of love towards me and for me, but I don't feel loved as a result of many of her actions, words, and inactions.

I ask you again for your prayers.

Sincerely,
D--

PS -- If I'm supposed to post on how much I accept her, what about the behavior I simply can't accept in my life? What about her violations of me and my personal views of how one should treat a friend/loved one/family member/life partner/husband/wife?

I firmly believe that my marriage will turn around and become a wonderful resource for both me and my wife.

It will be fun, joyous, and bubbling.

We will giggle a lot.

We will be healthy, abundant, and glowing.

Best,
D--

I missed where you said to your wife, "I feel used and rejected. I believe I was not considered by you right now, in the bedroom. I get that because I promised myself to stay conscious of you, when you sleep...walk in socks, close the bedroom. I know this is why I perceive you not considering me as rejection."

Your wife doesn't have the power to make you late...to anything. That's about you and boundaries. Your choice to perceive you are MADE late...therefore all the resulting feelings you have from your choice to believe that...is yours.

"I'm not feeling heard right now."

"I'm hearing you interrupt before I can complete my thought."

Why on earth are you choosing to listen and repeat name calling? Why not choose to be truthful, instead of lying?

"Name calling is abusive. Stop."

If she doesn't, you bound yourself to say, "I do not accept abuse. I will be back in 30 minutes to listen to your thoughts."

We've been over this several times...unil you choose to set boundaries around yourself, hold yourself to them, and act from your code, then you will continue to build resentment, punish your spouse and feel incredibly erased...and you're doing that to you! By choice!

You can pray all you want for an abundant marriage...God's been handing you all the information you need to have one...until you own your own stuff...what is within your control, your mandate to DO for your marriage...then you won't have it.

Your judgment, DJs are poisoning your marriage. When you pray, "Dearest Lord, please make this marriage a wonderful resource for us" and then poison it, what can God do? He has no domain over your choices or anyone's...they are yours and yours alone.

He can't MAKE you happy, joyous or bubbling...angry, pain-filled or fearful. He didn't put that in our design...even the Holy Spirit cannot...yet God will bring you the same message, unyieldingly, to answer your own prayers.

You know you are loved. You know you choose to love. You are not acting from it...you remain in the tit for tat...do for me what I do for you...which is disrespectful and battery acid on human relationships. Your choice. As long as you give to get love...you will remain a source of judgment, tumult and anguish in yourself and your marriage.

Your focus remains where you have no control...no domain. On her.

Turn it back to you...define and act from your code...like walking in socks because that's WHO YOU REALLY ARE...not to get that treatment back. Know your acts of love, from your own code, and BE love...not earn it. Deserve it. Be entitled to it because of your own choices...which are about you, not her.

LA

A) Things are getting WAY better in my marriage.
B) I believe it's possible for people to help each other out in life.



Dear LA, thank you for your dedication to this post. It's impossible to count the times I've made such statements and used such words. My wife calls me a tape recorder. OK? She says I'm "too sensitive" when I say "I feel..." and if I say "I feel rejected," she says "you always feel rejected." Then I say "I feel belittled, I don't always feel rejected, I feel rejected when [insert]" The inserts have ranged from I statements to "I feel when you" to "when people xyz, I generally feel" to abstract analogies that don't come close to triggering my wife's overload, name-calling, and attack attack attack buttons.



If it is my appointment, you are 100% right. If it is our appointment. A party, a get-together, a movie, a dinner with friends...of course she can make us late. If she's late and I'm not, and I'm waiting around in my coat, then she made us late. It's not judgemental, it's not cold, it's not emotional, it's just the way it is. If a team loses a game because player X drops the ball, then that's just the way it is. The team lost the game as a team. That's true. We were late. But player X dropped the ball, and the team would not have lost the game, had player X caught the ball. Why fret over forced perspective? Player X may have caught the ball 99% of the time. The team may have never made it to the playoffs, had player X not been so great. But in that game at that moment, player X dropped the ball. It happens. We take responsibility, we make adjustments, we celebrate our successes and failures, and we learn.



I don't know what you mean, and I find it unpleasant to be accused of lying. In my opinion, neither my wife nor I are lying, and I think she would agree. We are doing the best we can in our marriage, and "lying" is something reserved for dishonest, malicious people. We are not that. Maybe you mean a softer version of the word "lying," but I'm not sure. Maybe resonances from your own relationships are creeping into this thread, and I know you intend to help. I find your language accusitory and offensive, and I'm sure there are better ways to convey what you mean by focusing on the positive result you recommend for married couples instead of pointing out the flaws using inflammatory language.



Using my presence as a consequence has helped. Thanks for the advice.



I own my own stuff, more than you know. Maybe the problem is that I own not only my own stuff, but the "stuff" of a ton of other people, including my wife.



Where are you getting this? Why are you assuming that I embody such characteristics? Actually, I don't want to know the answer to those questions.

I'm not giving to get love. Maybe I just want a clean floor. Maybe I just don't think it's fair for me to be the person to "always" clean the floor. It only become a matter of whether my wife loves me or not when it becomes me "always" cleaning the floor, doing the dishes, being the primary provider, ironing the clothes, buying the food, etc. etc. etc.

I'm not giving to get love. Maybe I like reciprocal friendships, and I'm a very giving person who sometimes winds up overgiving. That's why I like being around good people who temper what they take from me, because they know I'll do a whole lot for them.

Also, my wife was emotionally and verbally abused in her childhood. She locked herself in her room to get away from her screaming mother. It was an awful childhood. I didn't have an awful childhood like that, and guess what...maybe my wife needed someone to clean up after her for a number of years so that she could heal from the wounds of her abuse. Sure, I was, in a sense "abused," but my wife is starting to realize that. Suer, we argued a lot about it, but a lot of the time, I just did it. Weeks, months went by, and I just did it. She slept.

Well, guess what. It seems like she is recovering. She's starting to take responsibility for things. Good for her.

And it hasn't been "all my problem." It hasn't been "me needing to take ownership of my stuff." Sure, I can benefit from that, but the focus has been on my wife healing. The ways she treated me, symptomatic of abuse...well, they were unacceptable.

We choose our emotional responses, I'm not denying that. I own my feelings. OK. Clear. No problem.

So, it took about 2.5 years of repeated I statements to get my wife to stop making noise while I was trying to fall asleep. My wife was horribly disrespected by her mother regarding going to sleep. While dating, my wife did not "show" me these patters of abuse. So, my wife did what she thought was normal: she abused me the way her mother abused her. Now she's starting to see what she's doing. Thank God. She's letting up. She's starting to take my opinions into consideration. She's taking interest in what would make me comfortable...not just in what she wants.

You state that my focus is on someone else, somewhere where I have no power. We are a we. She is a part of an us. We can be strong as a team. We can help and love each other and my wife was severly abused. She is now "in recovery," and it's beautiful. I own my feelings, thank you very much. This forum helped me vent basically every negative thing about my wife. I was too embarrassed to do it "as myself," so it served it's purpose.

She has many positive qualities, which I cherish, tell her about, appreciate, and celebrate.

I do concentrate on myself, yet my focus isn't "all" on me. I think that would be a horrible way to live. My emotions are my own, yet I believe that we are on this earth to befriend and help each other. I feel it's perfectly OK to help someone else, which basically, places the "focus" on the "other." I think it's perfectly OK for us to learn from each other and be happy.

My wife and I pulled through these last few years just fine.

Regarding God and the Holy Spirit. Yes, we are creatures of free will, but if God is love, then God does, in a sense "make" people happy. God does "make" people "of love."


Right, I agree 100%. Sometimes, the people you are with are locked into toxic patterns...what do you do then? Just divorce them? Own your own choices to the point where you wind up alone? My wife did things to me that basically, in my book, were worthy of immediate divorce. Are we divorced? No. Am I happy about that: yes.

"It makes me unhappy when you..." is a perfectly valid statement.

"I don't like it when you..." is also OK.

But you realize that the person you are saying such sentences to has basically only heard disapproval...only heard criticism...only heard rage...only been "pushed" to perform...has only received love for performance...well you start saying "holy ******, I had no idea how bad this was."

Unfortunately, the symptoms of the past abuse wind up on your kitchen floor in the form of old food. They wind up on your bathrooom floor in the form of dirty towels. They wind up messing with your desire to see a movie on time, because being late and being messy are aspects of healing...possibly even necessary rebellion.

Sure, I bore the brunt of it. And I focused on myself a lot over these last years...geeze, that rubs me the wrong way, being told that my "focus" is on her, where it shouldn't be...especially when, as we come out of this phase, my wife is actually grateful.

Yes, I focused on her. What should I have done? It's like she was a starving animal. Should I have just let her starve? "Hey, focus on yourself!!!" As I eat my sandwiches, enjoy my friends, earn money...sometimes people reach out in really really [censored] ways, but they simply don't know how else to do it.

So no, I did not let my wife starve. She needed the attention, and she got it the way she knew how.

Now, things are letting up. She's more self-confident, which makes her insult me less. I compliment her positive characteristics and yes, I "focus" on those. She is "built up," she's doing the same for me. Teamwork is way easier than doing everything alone. It's also a lot more fun.

Best,
D--

HI D,

I have noticed that my friends and family members who grew up in abusive or cold homes do display these qualities. Sleeping too much, being messy, having a hard time with task-management, trying to control every situation.

It seems like some people who didn't get the love or supported they deserved as children learn unhealthy ways to get love or support. My brother's ex-wife is very much like this. It's a tricky situation. I've seen it make my brother unhappy on many occassions (they have a child together, so there is no way to sever the relationship).

On the flip side, it sounds like your wife really loves you and like you love her. So I wish you the best as you continue to work to improve your marriage.

Thanks BackAgain,

My wife has a cold today. She's acting incredibly inappropriately. It makes it very difficult. I feel very stifled by my wife, but I do love her.

Just because she's sick does not mean that she can evade, make disrespectful judgements, insult me, etc. I mean, I was just trying to have her say whether she was going to make lunch, whether I was going to do so, or whether we were going to cook together (I'm working at home again for a while). She simply wouldn't answer in a way that a normal person can understand. If she was going to cook for herself, she could have easily cooked my lunch too.

If she didn't want to, I would have been glad to cut my veggies up, put them in a pan, and just ask her to watch the temperature.

She started acting like I was going to step all over her. Actually, she acted like I was stepping all over her.

I did not know what to do to break her expectations. I'm willing and happy to cook for the both of us, I'm willing and happy to cook together, and I'm willing and happy to have her cook for me. I do not understand why she feels the need to lash out at me, to insult me, to not move out of the way, if I'm trying to get to the sink, to act like my hand on her shoulder is some kind of poison...in a way, it is...if she allowed my hand to be on her shoulder, she would calm down and start feeling happy. So, my hand is a happiness maker, and she wants to be angry and cry and lash out and be mean.

"Being bad," I think, is one of the ways that she knows how to get attention. She insults, treats our property with contempt, does things that need to be repaired (there's a drawer I need to get around to fixing...it's a bit tight, and you need to kind of jiggle it to get it to close right...she just pushed it impatiently and broke the inside portion of the drawer). The fixing job went from one screw to a several hour project with wood glue and other things.

Of course, if I had fixed it sooner, she wouldn't have broken it...but jiggling drawer kindly allowed it to close easily. Now the drawer is on the floor.

Basically, what wound up happening, is that my wife is now crying about us living in poverty...which we aren't, and if she'd stop arguing for negativity every single second, we'd surely be doing a lot better. Anyway, I just used half of the range and made stuff for myself, which is what she (I think) wanted me to do. Now she's crying.

I had a good part-time position that covered all of our expenses. I was asked to do illegal things, which I did not do, and I was fired. We have a few months of buffer, and I'm working very hard to make sure we'll be OK financially.

I got a pay-out of my vacation time, and we have more money in the bank than we've had in a while. OK, it won't last super-long, but we aren't "in poverty." So she's crying and stabbing, turning around and walking away while I'm trying to comfort her...all kinds of slaps in the face...no contact...but hurtful nonetheless.

So, thank you very much for your kind wishes. I'm sorry to hear your brother went through a similar experience...and it's tough that they are divorced with a child in the picture.

The hardest thing is how stifling it is professionally to have a wife who often insists on negativity and failure. Things have been getting a lot better. I've incorporated a lot of affirmations, and I compliment my wife a lot. I thank her for the things she does, I build her up regarding her career, I intentionally say a lot of nice things to her.

It's just that sometimes, she wears down my positivity...she'll say one negative thing after the other until I feel like I have nothing left.

I'm really really doing the best I can here.

Here are some questions:

How can one build up a person who has been abused?
How can I prevent her abuse of me?
How can I enjoy my life and prosper, when my wife is in a cycle of pain, dejection, negative thinking, and failure?
Should I only concentrate on myself, or am I thereby abandoning my wife?
What about me in all of this? What if I yearn for someone to listen to me and make me feel heard? What if I yearn for a friend who listens and cares and responds? What if I yearn for a partner who can follow my thoughts deeper than one or two "levels" into the conversation? What if I yearn for a friend who truly cares about understanding me...without my needing to "coach" the conversations?

I'm really yearning for care here...

The tough thing is that, there are times when my wife somehow loses or forgets about her "baggage." She starts being "herself." It's wonderful. She can follow thoughts. She's mentioned that she really wants to understand me, that she really wants to make me feel understood...and we have tapes, CD's, books, etc. about how she could do that...but she would actually have to read those books, she would have to care enough to apply the principles in the CD's...and I wait and wait and wait and wait and wait...it gets painful.

It's so hard to "only" work on oneself, when your partner is being mean to you.

I really appreciate all positive advice intended to help my marriage pull through into abundance, joy, and prosperity.

Best,
D--

After a healthy, happy pause...my wife is lashing out again. However, BackAgain's comments give me hope in that maybe she's "reaching out for love in an unhealthy way."

That might be it.

So how do I give her love without supporting her negative, abusive and rude behavior?

How do I give her love when she's yelling at me or in the process of breaking a promise she made to me?

If I enforce boundaries, then I walk away. If I walk away, I'll stay away. Staying away makes me angry about the situation, because I just want our marriage to be happy and healthy, and I get really sick of getting yelled at. I get really really sick of not being heard or understood. I get sick of being stifled.

If I really enforced my boundaries, we would likely be divorced already. She has violated my concept of what our wedding vows mean so many times, I sometimes can't even believe that we're still married. I sometimes can't believe this is my life. It's like I'm living someone else's life...the life of a person in an unhappy marriage...and the real me is living a happy life of wealth, health, happiness, and abundance in a parallel universe.

Supposedly, from Stephen Covey, if I seek to understand, the relationship will naturally improve...well not if the person you are with is trained to abuse. I'll be able to summarize her thoughts perfectly, her feelings, everything. I'm willing and able to do it. Who ever heard of my turn? Who ever heard of her actually desiring to have me feel understood? Nope. I understand her. That's it. Done. Now let's go to a movie. If I ask for her to understand me, things can get shaky.

I do have to say that things have improved a lot over the last year...in particular in the "her understanding me" category. She's started applying some of the Covey principles and they do work. But what do I do when she is clearly violating the principles of empathic listening? When she is just being mean. When she repeats the patterns of her abusive past.

It's probably the hardest thing in the world for me to "be understanding" when my wife is lashing out, calling me names, breaking promises, etc. Honestly, I don't do anything to trigger these events. I don't say anything...they just happen.

My wife can be very loving, but sometimes it really hurts to be married to someone who feels she can treat the people she loves with such visciousness. She doesn't even realize how negative her behavior is. Later, she won't understand why I'm "still upset," as if I were hanging onto something illegitimate.

I wish to be understood and cared for!

I wish for our marriage to abound in love and kindness!

I'd also like to learn how to bring my marriage into the realm of love and joy.

Best,
D--

It's been a good few months. My wife is acting strangely again. She is lashing out and she seems out of sorts. When I try to hold her to calm her down she pushes me away and tells me my arms feel to hot.

It's not fair for her to ruin otherwise pleasant evenings by acting meanly.

She could ask me to not hold her...but she should not push me away. I feel that's physically abusive. Our contact should be of kindness and if she pushes, I feel she should apologize...but she was raised by a physically abusive mother...so she maybe has no idea what abuse is.

Well, I don't know if I'll be able to address this, and here I am complaining again to this forum. It feels like a big waste of time, and I honestly can't stand it.

Now, I feel like my strength, my life, my vitality, my happiness are just zapped. They are drained. I feel robbed. Violated. I feel like I can't do anything positive for myself or for our family now.

I want to be treated with fairness and love.

D--

Things have been much better, but today, I tried to open up to my wife about how I felt she has been treating me. She just attacked me and said I was attacking her. I wasn't attacking her. When she puts up her defenses instead of listening, all we do is fight...and it makes me so tired I feel like I can't do anything at all.

I'm starting to not care about trying anymore. Who cares that she leaves the kitchen a total mess? Who cares that the floor needs to be vacuumed? Who cares that the garbage needs to be taken out? Who cares? Who cares that now her and my clothes are on the floor? Who cares about what time we eat dinner and what we wind up eating for dinner? Who cares about health? Who cares about any of this?

If I'm the person who has to "uphold" the "good," the "organized," the "clean," the "timely," the "happy," and she just uses it and uses it and uses it...then forget it!

I leave things clean...she leaves them dirty.

I feel lied to, misled, blocked, and misunderstood.

D--

Today, my wife and I argued. I felt negated and not listened to. I was a bit mean and said that the only thing she cares about is herself and that everything she is saying revolves around her and her opinion. I told her that my opinions count too. When she continued just railroading over my thoughts with hers...I told her I was going to walk away if it continued...and then I did.

I went home.

She called me on her cell phone. Basically, I sought to understand her, which I did, but when it was her turn to understand me...she got frustrated and hung up on me.

I sent her a text message saying that I felt abused and that I would not accept abusive behavior in my life. I wrote that if she wanted to talk with me further, she would need to be willing to recognize and change any abusive behavior.

She just called and said that she truly does not wish to abuse me. She expressed willingness to understand what I see as abusive.

So, I'm glad. We're making progress.

Best wishes to you all,
D--

D,

You were the one in the wrong. You used disrespectful judgements when you said she only cares about herself, that everything revolves around her and her opinion. You are not a mindreader. Only she knows whether the things she says and does are because she doesn't care about you. When you have a complaint you have to make a specific complaint about a specific behavior not some globalized attack on her character.

If you want her to listen to you, then maybe you should listen to her until she is finished speaking and then take your turn. Most likely she wasn't listening to you because you were constantly interupting her.

Then you say when it was her turn to listen to you, she got frustrated and hung up. Perhaps that's because you used more disrespectful judgements? Maybe your wife would be more understanding of you if you didn't assassinate her character.

BTW, when your wife is sick you do NOT ask her if she's going to cook either for herself and especially not for you. If she's sick, YOU offer to cook for HER. Anything else is completely selfish and thoughtless on your part.

You also haven't been paying much attention to your wife's feelings because if you were, you would have noticed that she's obviously clinically depressed. Instead of nagging her all the time, why don't you tell her to see her physician. The signs are so obvious. How can you be so clueless?

Just read a few more previous posts...

Immune boosting therapy?! Are you serious?! That will do NOTHING for depression. She needs medication. Anti-depressants work wonders. And stop nagging her about housework because she's too tired, too sleepy and her muscles hurt. And the reason it took her 18 months to do her resume is that depression ruins your concentration and gives you problems with your short-term memory. You need to be more understanding of the fact that this is an ILLNESS. She's not being lazy just to get out of housework. During a depression even taking a shower can be physically exhausting. When she sees her doctor, maybe you should go to so you can learn about what she's been going through. You seem very self-absorbed and she needs you to take care of her until she recovers. Make her an appointment ASAP.

D--

Consider posting in the Emotional Needs forum, there is much more traffic there and your entries will be less like a journal and more conversation.

The way I see it, you both have issues in this M. Not insurmountable, but they pose a challenge. It is admirable that you are taking the step to improve yourself, looking into MBers and other resources.

What happened? Her frustration leads me to believe she feels something unproductive was going on in the conversation, and her boundary was to remove herself (hanging up). What was so frustrating?

My wife is the victim of childhood abuse. People here "diagnosing" her is inappropriate. Calling me "clueless" is abusive, coming from a person whose other posts, at least to me, indicate a pattern of abuse.

My marriage is doing quite well, and yes, immune boosting actions, thoughts, foods, etc. have helped TREMENDOUSLY, thank you very much.