Divorce vs affair, which would you choose? - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

There regularly are postings about how hurtful affairs are, and why couldn't someone just divorce first..... personally this makes no sense to me as an equality...an affair is about a lot of things, but primarily a life learning experience for all parties....on the other hand, a divorce is a definite ending, no appeal, no reconcilliation.... done, fini, over...and all the legal stuff as well...assets, child support, alimony...

So, here is the question...would you prefer to be served a divorce summons and no affair....or would you prefer an affair occur, with the resultant opportunity to learn much about yourself, marriaqge, behavior...and all that....even if it still ends in divorce...at least the possibility existed for reconcilliation (assuming you wanted it)...as well as substantial personal growth.

Keep in mind that the dynamics of the two scenarios are vastly different...being served divorce papers means a decision to end has been made, and the individual is going to be highly resistant to any efforts to change their mind....an affair, by it's nature, creates a kind of debt to the bs, which they can use (or abuse) if they understand that, and act decisively.

Please do not offer perfect world options.....yes in a perfect world people would be radically honest, voice all their issues, go to counselling with you....give you advance notice of their intent to divorce...blah blah blah. That does not happen in this world....and actually often much of that did happen in the marriage anyways (counselling, complaining etc... things did not improve and people gave up)...In the real world, people divorce or fall into an affair (and a few just continue on in cold, empty, bitter marriages till the day they die...which is no good either). That is what the walk away wife syndrome is about....

note....yes even if served divorce papers one can try to do a plan a, attempt reconcilliation...but the dynamics are much different....that is the point of the question....given an imminent marital ending.....would you prefer (think your chances better) to be dealing with a walk away spouse, or a ws. If so the later, than complaining about how awful the ws is, and why didn't they just "leave" if they were unhappy is hypocritical....and self-servingly manipulative to say to your ws.

[ May 26, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

Interesting question...my H returned from his first IC session and told me that his IC said, "Well, wouldn't you have rather had an A than a D?" Hmmmm? Sure, I guess he would have rather had an A but if tables were turned would he have rather I had an A than serve him D papers?

I would be interested to know if a WS and a BS would differ on the answer to this question.

edited above to add a little more ("note")

I suspect the real underlying issue is rejection.... there is something about being rejected for (supposedly) someone else that just really impacts people (badly).....divorce is rejection too, but not as visceral I guess ....yet the chances of a better marriage, and reconcilliation are better with an affair precisely cause of that visceral response....it is a wakeup call like no other...and the emotional impact is an integral part of likelihood of permanent change (thusly enabling a better marriage to rise from the ashes)....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by LosingFocus:
 Interesting question...my H returned from his first IC session and told me that his IC said, "Well, wouldn't you have rather had an A than a D?" Hmmmm? Sure, I guess he would have rather had an A but if tables were turned would he have rather I had an A than serve him D papers?

I would be interested to know if a WS and a BS would differ on the answer to this question. <hr /></blockquote>Dang!!! I should have included a question re ws or bs.

sufdb,

I believe the possibility of a reconciliation AND a learning experience is possible through both scenarios but it's never that clear cut.Say I get served papers by my S,well assuming that I never saw it coming,*like my WH's A,I would then try to discover the issues my WH had with me/marriage(as also in an A) and try to reconcile first,as I had/have done.

With only 1/3rd of marriages surviving from an A,the other's D'ing,then I would only want one pain of that magnitude in my life, so I would rather be served.What I am facing now is both scenarios and I would have rather been given D papers and then tried to work on the marriage.I understand that A's can bring about the opportunity to have a better marriage but at such a cost.

People can and do remarry and if two people really want to have another chance at a happy and fulfilling marriage,it can be possible even after a D.

Right now,the only way I don't feel D'd is the legal formalities.I will always love my WH even when I am D and therafter but that won't change his unwillingness to make our marriage and our family his priority.

O

Since A's are supposedly wake-up calls to M problems, I guess a D would be as well.

I would rather get D papers.

Even with D papers, there's still a chance to work it out, discuss issues/problems, etc. WITHOUT all of the terrible hurt and pain that a BS goes through.

sss

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Octobergirl:
 sufdb,

I believe the possibility of a reconciliation AND a learning experience is possible through both scenarios but it's never that clear cut.Say I get served papers by my S,well assuming that I never saw it coming,*like my WH's A,I would then try to discover the issues my WH had with me/marriage(as also in an A) and try to reconcile first,as I had/have done.

With only 1/3rd of marriages surviving from an A,the other's D'ing,then I would only want one pain of that magnitude in my life, so I would rather be served.What I am facing now is both scenarios and I would have rather been given D papers and then tried to work on the marriage.I understand that A's can bring about the opportunity to have a better marriage but at such a cost.

People can and do remarry and if two people really want to have another chance at a happy and fulfilling marriage,it can be possible even after a D.

Right now,the only way I don't feel D'd is the legal formalities.I will always love my WH even when I am D and therafter but that won't change his unwillingness to make our marriage and our family his priority.

O <hr /></blockquote>yes, I tried to indicate both scenarios can lead to reconcilliation or divorce....and their is no right answer cause it depends on the people and the circumstances of that particular marriage, but the scenarios are vastly different psychologically....what interests me is the personal opinions that after expressed about this (and said often to the ws...IMO as a means of emotional manipulation)....hence the poll.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> There regularly are postings about how hurtful affairs are, and why couldn't someone just divorce first..... personally this makes no sense to me as an equality...an affair is about a lot of things, but primarily a life learning experience for all parties....on the other hand, a divorce is a definite ending, no appeal, no reconcilliation.... done, fini, over...and all the legal stuff as well...assets, child support, alimony...
<hr /></blockquote>I don't think an affair is primarily a life learning experience....I think it's a life shattering experience that often ends in divorce anyway and the learning is done with such pain that it's a lesson I think I'd rather skip! Neither is divorce a definite ending. My grandparents divorced and remarried 3 times.

Getting divorce papers or getting the news that my H cheated would be equally devastating...however, at least with the divorce papers I could respect the process. Getting divorce papers is a better way to learn this lesson and it's a much better wake up call than knowing my H is in love with someone else....and they don't mean the marriage is over. I gives the added advantage of preserving integrity...respect for my spouse as well as not completely destroying my trust and confidence. I prefer papers any day!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> When my H told me what his IC said (with what looked like a little weight lifted off his shoulder) I just said, "Well, if my opinion matters...I would have rather had divorce papers."

I would still have tried to reconcile but I could have done so without this added hurt. My H is the man who helped me 'heal my childhood wounds', so to speak...his A just ripped open that scar and poured acid in it...

"I love you but I'm not in love with you" (which I would assume we'd all probably still hear with D papers) would be easier to work through without the added pain of betrayal...not easy...but easier...at least for me.

suf...you're talking braille baby!!! And the thing is...you haven't experienced EITHER one.

I've experienced BOTH. My first husband...served me with divorce papers, but waited to date my friends. My second husband served up two affairs. GIVE ME THE PAPERS!!!!

eddited to add: honestly...it was much easier to get over the divorce than the affairs...no lie. And I still have a really good friendship with my first husband.

[ May 26, 2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

Gimme the D, thanks.

I take partial responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage. If we can't work it out, ok, divorce me. (No not ok, but if you insist, ok, I won't hold dear H back from finding happiness.)

But don't lie to me, don't cause confusion in our marriage, don't force me to swallow your excuses for non participation in our relationship. Don't put me at risk with diseases. Don't hurt me. I don't deserved to be hurt. I don't deserve the scars WS inflicted. When WS has an A, he loses my trust, my admiration, my respect.

Is a few moments of pleasure worth losing a person's dignity, is it worth the exchange of another ten years of rebuilding trust?

I could have saved four years of my life, and mind you, fertile years of my life, if he served first and then go have his flings. And we'd probably remain friends.

Y'know, looking at all this, IMHO, As are for cowards.
If I'm not right with you, tell me. Shake some sense into me if you have to. Don't creep around behind my back and cheat on me.

[ May 26, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Ruffled ]

One thing that is missing from the equation I think is "freedom". When my first husband decided he didn't want to be married anymore...was young and had made a mistake and didn't feel ready...it was devastating. I loved him every bit as much as I love the man I am married to now. And yet, that hurt took less time to recover from than the hurt of my second's husband's affairs. My first husband gave me the freedom to pursue my own healing and also find love with someone else. In my second marriage....I was trapped alone with that hurt...not being able to ethically choose what he had already done. I was NOT free...I was still married. It has taken me far far longer to recover from the pain of these affairs...and honestly, I'm not sure the damage that has been done will ever completely heal. My heart has healed from my divorce...in part, because the integrity of the relationship remained in tact for the time that it lasted. I respect the choice my first husband made where I will never respect the choices that my second husband made.

star...I don't think an affair is primarily a life learning experience....I think it's a life shattering experience that often ends in divorce anyway and the learning is done with such pain that it's a lesson I think I'd rather skip!

sufdb...tough lessons tend to be that way. Life is not about pain avoidance (as I know you know)...it is just life....and EVERYTHING is an opportunity, in one way or another...and bemoaning that something has happened squanders that gift... I suspect this poll will somewhat reflect temperament types....the old half full, half empty mindset that runs through our species... I guess myself, I view what is done as done, and immediately move on...looking for the silver lining, I am functionally unable to be negative. One of my biggest heros is Jim (that right?) walsh, who turned his young sons horrific death (a much more awful event than any affair or divorce could ever be) into the salvation of probably thousands of people. I am sure he misses his son, but the man strikes me as understanding that the greater good was worth the sacrifice....especially since it cannot be undone.

People vest way way too much in the breakdown of a relationship, marital or otherwise, instead of embracing the growth opportunity, and following the new paths....for heavens sake, no has died, you don't want to continue it if your spouse doesn't want to be there (regardless of reason) so why embrace misery? Bitterness? or elevate rejection to a level of permanent damage? Rejection is just another fact of life, and easily dealt with, if you are psychologically healthy....and optimistically oriented....the good news about divorce (or affairs) crisis, is it provides the opportunity to get real and stop living in the fantasy that preceeded the reality check. (ie that you are in a great marriage).

star...Neither is divorce a definite ending. My grandparents divorced and remarried 3 times.

sufdb...well, that begs the question of how functional your grandparents were, or the value of the marriage...but anyways the poll is not about whether one can or will remarry...but about what happens now...not that it is a permanent circumstance.

star...Getting divorce papers or getting the news that my H cheated would be equally devastating...

sufdb...for you that is an equality...so makes no difference (geez, that should have been another choice in the poll...sigh).

star..however, at least with the divorce papers I could respect the process.

sufdb...yep, that is implied, and one of the reasons a divorce is less rejecting...

star...Getting divorce papers is a better way to learn this lesson and it's a much better wake up call than knowing my H is in love with someone else....

sufdb...why? maybe knowing your H is in love with someone else gives you emtional information you could not "experience" any other way, and this will impact your reaction (for good or bad)...what do you think?

star..It gives the added advantage of preserving integrity...respect for my spouse as well as not completely destroying my trust and confidence. I prefer papers any day!

sufdb...Integrity has nothing to do with affairs per se (albeit how an affair is handled can reflect integrity)....people have or do not have affairs for specific psychological reasons....a person with great integrity may very well be in such a circumstance....and a person with no integrity may never have an affair.....integrity does not equal affair....affairs are about primal responses hardwired into us and are the same processes/responses that lead to marriage...the only difference between an affair and marriage is labels. People can and do marry all the time for selfish, manipulative reasons, no integrity at all.

As for destroying trust and confidence....yep, definitely something to be looked at.....but trust is not necessarily an issue, and may simply be your inappropriate response....an informed (now) ws may in fact be more trustworthy...but that has to be worked out for sure.

likewise plenty of divorces are "dishonest", where the plantiff wreaked major deceit on on the spouse....so trust is not particularly related to affairs...but to the individual....I really think this all boils down very primally and viserally to rejection for someone else...which also explains why normally "nice" peaceful people feel like "killing" the op....

I think there is a HUGE difference displayed in the character of the one doing the action. One can argue that serving one with D papers is admirable. "I did it because I knew I was going to cheat and did not want to put my spouse through the pain". In having an affair there is nothing repectable. Having an affair is low and cowardice.

Let's see... would I rather be lied to or be told the truth?

Would I rather be unknowingly put at risk of getting an STD (including possibly fatal one) or not?

Would I rather waste time trying to figure out what's with my husband's anger, distance, silence... or to know the score so I can make an informed decision re: whether or not to waste any more time or effort on trying to save a marriage with an adulterer?

Would I rather have my WH and his 'supporters' pretending he is 'trapped' with me, that I supposedly won't 'let' him have a divorce... Or have the truth exposed and being free MYSELF to pursue a more worthwhile marriage?

"Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies" has never been one of my favorite song lyrics.

And as to an affair being a learning experience... divorce can be too. For that matter being honest and faithful can be a learning experience.

I guess if I was the WS instead of the BS I would feel more motivated to find some justification or benefit from adultery. Not that I don't believe in the 'if you're given lemons make lemonade' philosophy. It's just that I also realize that you CAN ALSO learn and grow without betrayal and dishonesty. YES, growth can and should come from bad things that happen in your life... But I feel no need to pretend that selfishly hurting those who should be able to trust you is therefore somehow an OK thing.

You can teach somebody to swim by cruelly tossing them off the dock... or by lovingly giving them swimming lessons. If I had selfishly chosen to do something that would cause my spouse (AND children) intense suffering, I would be too ashamed to try to assure them afterwards that it was somehow for their own good. YES, hopefully there would be recovery (with or without the marriage surviving) and growth, but it still would have been far more beneficial to have a positive outcome resulting from unbroken trust and an intact marriage/family.

Frankly if my WH had put 1/10th the effort into his marriage/family as we've observed him putting into adultery (AND trying to defend/justify it to try to get us to pretend what he and the OW did was OK) we would have experienced PLENTY of growth and benefits. If he had a legitimate complaint or unmet need all he had to do was say so. There's really no excuse to REFUSE to tell your spouse what's wrong while blabbing to an OW and family/friends about problems (some real but solveable - most outright lies). I would have definitely preferred to have him say to me: "I want a divorce because..." I would have then been given the opportunity to work on the real problems and/or been free to pursue a marriage to a more honest and mature mate.

I want and deserve a healthy happy marriage. THAT will always be my # 1 choice. And the BEST way to achieve that is with honesty and respect. Yes, with a LOT of help from God, additional hard work, forgiveness, counseling, changes, accountability, luck... that can sometimes still be achieved after adultery. BUT it's dishonest to pretend that would not have been possible to achieve any other way!

If my WH wants to reconcile (before the divorce is final - too late afterwards) he best not try to justify his adultery as something that was good for us or our marriage/family! THE lesson he needs to learn from adultery is how to protect his wife/marriage/children/family from selfish lusts (his and OW). (AND he had PLENTY of opportunity to learn this lesson WITHOUT committing adultery - He had no business PROMISING he could be trusted if he hadn't ALREADY LEARNED adequate self-control! He shouldn't have 'needed' to commit adultery to simply learn to honor his promises and to not hurt those who trust him.) If he doesn't get it... well then he just won't ever get it again (not from me anyway).

[ May 26, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]

ok, ok, disclaimer here re std's, that is a practical physical concern, I was speaking more to the psychological issues. Agreed the std thing is a biggy, and skews the outcome...but I am not sure that is what particularly causes the emotional reaction....so, for the poll, don't consider std, the affair is all EA, or not std related physical contact.

This keeps up, and I will have to redo the poll to consider these additional issues.

meremortal, I don't have any problems with the discussuion you posted...but that adds qualifies to the poll (the trouble all who post polls have with those who respond <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )...the point of the poll is to ascertain whether folks "see" any difference between the two events, and whether those differences are significant in some way....the poll is NOT about wishing affairs didn't happen, choosing affairs, or celebrateing affairs....the poll is just about whether marital crisis comes about through divorce proceedings or discovery of an affair...and which is more likely to effect a positive grwoth....be it personally and/or reconcilliation.

sufdb...tough lessons tend to be that way. Life is not about pain avoidance (as I know you know)...it is just life....and EVERYTHING is an opportunity, in one way or another...and bemoaning that something has happened squanders that gift...

Well part of the problem is that you didn't ASK me if I thought I could learn from either experience, survive it, flourish after it. You asked which I would prefer. You know I learned about survival from growing up in a physically and sexually abuse home...to become a very well adjusted person who still finds beauty and life in the world. Would I choose to learn those lessons in that way if there was another way? Nope.

I suspect this poll will somewhat reflect temperament types....the old half full, half empty mindset that runs through our species... I guess myself, I view what is done as done, and immediately move on...looking for the silver lining, I am functionally unable to be negative.

Now you know half empty doesn't begine to describe me. Again...you gave me a choice of two hard lessons. Now that I've chosen the one you don't agree with...you're going to label me as negative???

One of my biggest heros is Jim (that right?) walsh, who turned his young sons horrific death (a much more awful event than any affair or divorce could ever be) into the salvation of probably thousands of people. I am sure he misses his son, but the man strikes me as understanding that the greater good was worth the sacrifice....especially since it cannot be undone.

Again...there was no question about what opportunities we might be able to make out of hard lessons...we were just given a choice.

People vest way way too much in the breakdown of a relationship, marital or otherwise, instead of embracing the growth opportunity, and following the new paths....for heavens sake, no has died, you don't want to continue it if your spouse doesn't want to be there (regardless of reason) so why embrace misery? Bitterness? or elevate rejection to a level of permanent damage? Rejection is just another fact of life, and easily dealt with, if you are psychologically healthy.

I didn't die from either experience....and yet, having experienced both I still have a preference. It seems strange to me that having experienced neither...that you get to decide who is psychologically healthy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

sufdb...yep, that is implied, and one of the reasons a divorce is less rejecting...

Given a CHOICE...what is psychologically LESS healthy than choosing the one that is less rejecting???

star...Getting divorce papers is a better way to learn this lesson and it's a much better wake up call than knowing my H is in love with someone else....

sufdb...why? maybe knowing your H is in love with someone else gives you emtional information you could not "experience" any other way, and this will impact your reaction (for good or bad)...what do you think?

Both of my husband's communicated this same message to me. One of them, did it in a way that I prefer to the other.

star..It gives the added advantage of preserving integrity...respect for my spouse as well as not completely destroying my trust and confidence. I prefer papers any day!

sufdb...Integrity has nothing to do with affairs per se (albeit how an affair is handled can reflect integrity)

Here we will have to agree to disagree. Since the definition for intergrity are as follows: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; complete. Honesty; uprightness; rectitude, purity...I think that having an affair is definitely about integrity.

....people have or do not have affairs for specific psychological reasons....a person with great integrity may very well be in such a circumstance....and a person with no integrity may never have an affair.....integrity does not equal affair....affairs are about primal responses hardwired into us and are the same processes/responses that lead to marriage...the only difference between an affair and marriage is labels. People can and do marry all the time for selfish, manipulative reasons, no integrity at all.

We do have have hardwired responses. Integrity is doing the right thing in spite of that.

As for destroying trust and confidence....yep, definitely something to be looked at.....but trust is not necessarily an issue, and may simply be your inappropriate response....an informed (now) ws may in fact be more trustworthy...but that has to be worked out for sure.

My innappropriate response??? I made a choice given the parameters of the poll.

likewise plenty of divorces are "dishonest", where the plantiff wreaked major deceit on on the spouse....so trust is not particularly related to affairs...but to the individual....I really think this all boils down very primally and viserally to rejection for someone else...which also explains why normally "nice" peaceful people feel like "killing" the op....

And those divorces are void of integrity too...I agree. But the fact that some divorces are dishonest...doesn't make affairs any better.

Again...I made a choice. One that I have the real knowledge of knowing my preference since I have experienced both.

You're still talking braille. LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

[ May 26, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

sufdb, the problem with your grasping the idea of someone preferring divorce over an affair is that you're looking at the affair situation through your own experiences.

From what I understand that A occured after a long period of emotional distance(no sex, sleeping in seperate rooms, living seperate lives) and so the A probably seems as if it should be less devestating because the emotional investment of the BS in that situation was very little.

However, not all A's happen in those circumstances. My ex's A took place without any major warning that things were going downhill. We had sex regularly, slept in the same bed, ate dinner together and attended events together. I had no idea when the A started initially and only began to see signs of it(missed time, him not wanting sex, ect.)when it was already a few months into it. It came completely from left field and there was no emotional detachment from my end.

I knew the OW and had met her prior to my knowing, I also was friends with his co-workers who later become instrumental in helping him cover up the A. It was only through blind chance that I found out and read all the e-mails between he and OW laughing about the two of them pretending in front of his "clueless wife" and then getting together the next day for sex during their lunch break.

I definately would have preferred him going through the divorce route first instead of humliating me behind my back to people I knew, spending our hard earned in our joint account money on gifts and dates for another woman behind my back(yes, I worked full time too, he told me the money was needed for work equipment)and completely trashing my ego by telling me the OW was better looking and a more interesting person.

Being served would have hurt but I would not have been given the same degree of baggage to be rid of afterward had he just ended our marriage instead of denegrating me before finally filing. It was like the final hard kick in the [censored] before throwing me out the door.

I'm a very positive person overall and do look at the glass as half-full. I do see it as a learning experience but quite honestly I wish I never had to learn that even the most trusted person in your life can turn on you and do horrible things to you. I know it now and so really don't 100% trust anyone anymore. Lesson learned.

I am happy to be out of the situation, grateful for the tremendous resiliency it gave me but really a plain old divorce would have been preferable if given a choice.

the equealing of an affair to nothing more than a life learning experience...with the tone that one should have an open mind to being betrayed just in case they might "learn" something from it...is beyond my (closed mindedness I'm sure to be labeled) mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

)...the point of the poll is to ascertain whether folks "see" any difference between the two events, and whether those differences are significant in some way...

they are apple and oranges....

the amount of gross disrepect that is involved just on the nature of an affair is undeniably a factor that seperates the two on the spectrum...

though both are disrepectful (serving of papers with no disclosure)

the intimate involving of a third party into someones life on such a personal level.takes it to a new level and playing field.....makes the two thing morally and ethically uneven...and making them the BS the enemy... ..with all the other aspects of gross disrepect on a continuem...
that occur in an affair...

here's my poll...

would you like to wear a blindfold for a day...
or would you like to have your eyes gouged out with a hot poker...

the upside...is you get the life experience of being blind...and may learn some valuable lessons on learning to trust other people....and relying on others...and how better to arrange your living room.....

so since the learning lessons in the end are equal...

which would you choose?...

ARK

Great analogy ark^^ hahhahah...but they BOTH have to painful. So how about this:

Would you rather have your eyes gouged with a hot poker?

Or Be staked to the earth and allow birds to eat them slowly?

I'll take the hot poker given the choice...but I resent having to choose no matter how much I may learn from blindness!!!

Hey, I wasn't "questioning" your choice, of course that was the poll, and your choice is your choice end of story.....I was just commenting on your commentary...right? Ok, a few more comments

star...Well part of the problem is that you didn't ASK me if I thought I could learn from either experience, survive it, flourish after it. You asked which I would prefer.

sufdb...yep. But the comments were related to your remarks about why you chose...not a complaint of what choice you made in the poll.

star...You know I learned about survival from growing up in a physically and sexually abuse home...to become a very well adjusted person who still finds beauty and life in the world. Would I choose to learn those lessons in that way if there was another way? Nope.

sufdb...and what if all the other ways resulted in a less attractive outcome for you...that is the point of the poll (to think about that, is really a different life philosophy...one not commonly appreciated methinks)....I know that is not easy for people to contemplate, to easy to have emotional reactions to the question...the question is all rational, no emotions allowed....probably should have said that, for all the good it would have done me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

star...Now you know half empty doesn't begine to describe me. Again...you gave me a choice of two hard lessons. Now that I've chosen the one you don't agree with...you're going to label me as negative???

subdb....no silly, all my comments are the general we, you, whoever...by now you must know I pretty much write in the if the shoe fits wear it mode. You seem to be an optimisitc person to me...

star..Again...there was no question about what opportunities we might be able to make out of hard lessons...we were just given a choice.

sufdb...yes, I limited the choice, but the point was to project from those two life experiences, what is most likely to give the best outcome...and was related to the regular complaint of just divorce me.....I suspect affairs are more likely to result in good outcomes, than not when marriages are in failure/crisis mode....I wondered if others concur....but as you have demonstrated, the poll is more likely to be answered from the viewpoint of pain experienced, than opportunity seen... that in itself is interesting, and IMO a direct corrollation to the majority temperament frequenting this site (and willing to take polls).

star...I didn't die from either experience....and yet, having experienced both I still have a preference. It seems strange to me that having experienced neither...that you get to decide who is psychologically healthy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

sufdb...guffawing, were that I could "decide" who is healthy or not...no, sorry star, no God complexes here... but kudos for the attempt to "dig" using my point.... Come on, if we all have to experience everything to have opinions or comment on the nature of human existence....we'd all have to go home...or at least participate only in places with folks identical to us, now theres a thought.....a site all sufdb's...or all star's....wonder what that would be like?

star...Given a CHOICE...what is psychologically LESS healthy than choosing the one that is less rejecting???

sufdb... That elevates rejection to life threatening status....which was one of my reasons for the poll....why does choosing less rejecting become the primary rationale....why not choose more rejecting, but a greater growth opportunity....isn't that essentially what sales is aboiut...and why many cannot hack sales....they can't tolerate the rejection....so doesn't that limit opportunity.....and wouldn't the same consideration apply in relationship matters?

star...Getting divorce papers is a better way to learn this lesson and it's a much better wake up call than knowing my H is in love with someone else....

sufdb...why? maybe knowing your H is in love with someone else gives you emtional information you could not "experience" any other way, and this will impact your reaction (for good or bad)...what do you think?

Both of my husband's communicated this same message to me. One of them, did it in a way that I prefer to the other.

sufdb...this is the crux of it, in your case, would you have preferred the divorce papers, and easier way out (for you, from a rejecting standpoint)....or in hindsite, has the growth you acheived been worth the rejection pain? regardless of whether your marriage improves or you eventually divorce....

star...Here we will have to agree to disagree. Since the definition for intergrity are as follows: Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code. The state of being unimpaired; soundness.
The quality or condition of being whole or undivided; complete. Honesty; uprightness; rectitude, purity...I think that having an affair is definitely about integrity.

sufdb...And taken too far you have zealotry, ridgidity, and all it's dysfunctional offspring...that is my point. The word integrity implies something good, but it must be qualified, and one must closely examine how a given person manifests "integrity"....I have no doubt suicide bombers consider themself to have great integrity...and by your definition...they do.

star...We do have have hardwired responses. Integrity is doing the right thing in spite of that.

sufdb...Nope. If anything integrity is about consistentcy, and that can be good or bad....give me a wo/man who is not ridgid and can think, use their brain any day....I may not agree with them, but at least I can appeal to reason. It takes no brains at all to manifest integrity, it only takes a rule maker temperament. Cognition is what gives us the capacity to act against instinct...not integrity....and what do you do when you have people of equal integrity but diametrically opposed value systems? I give you a hint.... genoci__

As for destroying trust and confidence....yep, definitely something to be looked at.....but trust is not necessarily an issue, and may simply be your inappropriate response....an informed (now) ws may in fact be more trustworthy...but that has to be worked out for sure.

My innappropriate response??? I made a choice given the parameters of the poll.

sufdb...not YOUR (star) the general your....life on-line is so annoying sometimes....sigh...

sufdb...And those divorces are void of integrity too...I agree. But the fact that some divorces are dishonest...doesn't make affairs any better.

sufdb....looking confused....did I say that somewhere? Of course not.

a request....plz do not think anything I say is about you specifically unless I state so....even if it seems like it (long as a general discussion, rather than personal advice is obviously going on).....endless disclaimers about comments being general just get tiresome.

ark... the equaling of an affair to nothing more than a life learning experience...with the tone that one should have an open mind to being betrayed just in case they might "learn" something from it...is beyond my (closed mindedness I'm sure to be labeled) mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

sufdb..but that is all it is, a life experience, a hot poker destroys eyesight, that is a huge deal....would you prefer the hot poker to ONE eye (you keep the other) or an affair? There is a difference between permanent damage...and hurt feelings (all rejection essentially is)...we experience hurt feelings to tell us stuff...but it is hardly permanent injury....otherwise no one could recover...yet pretty much everyone who wants to, does recover, and usually quite well.

)...the point of the poll is to ascertain whether folks "see" any difference between the two events, and whether those differences are significant in some way...

they are apple and oranges....

sufdb...not really ark, these are the primary ways marriages (or relationships) end...and both are essentially rejection....I guess I could have included death types of endings...that would be different....how about this....would you perfer your marriage end by death of spouse....or by affair.....now there is a soul searching question.

ark...the amount of gross disrepect that is involved just on the nature of an affair is undeniably a factor that seperates the two on the spectrum...

sufdb....how so.....gross disrespect abounds in marriages, especially long-term dysfunctional marriages....hard to see where that is preferable to the disrespect of a affair.

ark...the intimate involving of a third party into someones life on such a personal level.takes it to a new level and playing field.....makes the two thing morally and ethically uneven...and making them the BS the enemy... ..with all the other aspects of gross disrepect on a continuem...
that occur in an affair...

sufdb...these are all details, which vary considerably, and I was trying to exclude situations from the mix...clearly if we could all "define" how we wanted out marriage to end, we would do so as painlessly as possible...but that is not how life works, hence my interest in how people view these two related issues (since the lament is, divorce me first, if you are going to be in an affair) given the possibility an affair is actually a greater opportunity than a straitforward divorce.. Maybe that isn't true, but that was the reason for the poll, and how people should consider the question.

ark...the upside...is you get the life experience of being blind...and may learn some valuable lessons on learning to trust other people....and relying on others...and how better to arrange your living room.....

so since the learning lessons in the end are equal...

which would you choose?...

sufdb...I am unsure of the question....is the point that I am blind in either case? Then I would want the blindfold (emotional avoidance of pain), but I would choose the poker (rational appreciation is the better character builder, and makes the most of becoming blind).

np...sufdb, the problem with your grasping the idea of someone preferring divorce over an affair is that you're looking at the affair situation through your own experiences.

sufdb...as must we all. I have to go, but will comment later. Thx for your participation.

It is an interesting question...

If I was back at the same place I was just before the affair and had I decided to divorce instead of continue forward in the affair, I'm convinced we would all be worse off today. More than likely, I would be married to the OW and dealing with child support, alimony, ex's, etc.

I think there is a point to be made that once one reconciles in their mind that they want a divorce and actually pursues it, it is much, much harder to recover the relationship at that point.

As painful as the affair was, there was still enough to our marriage to make me want to stay. I never, at any time, wanted to end my marriage.

Low

Your question is whether people prefer to be served divorce papers or to be surprised with an affair. Both are very painful experiences, but at least if one is served divorse papers there is not the added pain of being betrayed, insulted, demoralized, cheapened, and all the feelings that go along with being cheated on. The torment of knowing that your spouse, whom you have loved and trusted, is capable of sleeping with someone else and disregarding the pain that he/she causes is way too much.

At least, with the divorse you have a chance to talk without the addition of a third person into the equation. You may be very disappointed and you have to understand why and may be easier to try to work things out. An affair does not give you those opportunities. You are hit broadsided by a train and then it is very difficult. There is also the breakage of many important things in a marriage like trust, honesty, communication, etc.

The results may reflect that no one wants to feel the pain of an affair.

we experience hurt feelings to tell us stuff..
not always.....
sometimes things hurt and we learn nothing..
and not because we aren't open to learning...
sometimes there is nothing to learn....
and its just feelings... just hurt...
not all feelings equal great life learning lessons....sometimes they just hurt...

and the involvement of a third person to disrupt a marriage....is not a minor detail
It is the detail that makes the two unequeal...
unnanounced divorce vs AFFAIR

because though an unannanounced divorce hurts...it still speaks of protecting a spouse on a certain level...

an affair is the total removal of the protector role that should exist in marriage..

and I don't think you can remove that from the mix...

some people learn great valuable noble life lessons...and nothing bad ever happens to them...

so I guess my answer is I would rather be given divorce papers...even at the risk of giving up a life lesson....
AND
my disclaimer is that I don't believe the two are equal at all.....in action....

ark

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But the comments were related to your remarks about why you chose...not a complaint of what choice you made in the poll.
<hr /></blockquote>Ah...so you would like me to consider amd weigh the results or possibility of opportunites for each of these scenarios instead of ONLY the pain experienced. Okay, I can do that.

Done...I choose the papers. Why? Well you're limiting the opportunities to ONLY saving the marriage. While neither of my husbands gave me the optimal choice of not doing either without prior notice....the papers gave me much more opportunity to choose other people or paths for self actualization because I was as free as he was. Free to choose, free to move on, free to find someone else. The only opportunities available to me in the affair scenario....assuming as you say the marriage doesn't fail because of it...is the marriage...a compromised one at that....and the continuity for my children. For me personally, the papers still seem like a better deal.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />and what if all the other ways resulted in a less attractive outcome for you...that is the point of the poll (to think about that, is really a different life philosophy...one not commonly appreciated methinks)....I know that is not easy for people to contemplate, to easy to have emotional reactions to the question...the question is all rational, no emotions allowed....probably should have said that, for all the good it would have done me <hr /></blockquote>Even rationally speaking....I still see more opportunity (since none of us can predict the future and what avenues may be opened by either outcome) with the wide open scenario...divorce.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I limited the choice, but the point was to project from those two life experiences, what is most likely to give the best outcome...and was related to the regular complaint of just divorce me.....I suspect affairs are more likely to result in good outcomes, than not when marriages are in failure/crisis mode....I wondered if others concur....but as you have demonstrated, the poll is more likely to be answered from the viewpoint of pain experienced, than opportunity seen... that in itself is interesting, and IMO a direct corrollation to the majority temperament frequenting this site (and willing to take polls).
<hr /></blockquote>The truth is that we can't possibly know what the best outcome is. My H could divorce me, and I might find the love of my life....or the Marquis de Sade. My H might disclose an affair and my marriage could become wonderful or deteriorate slowly until divorce....or as in my case...another affair. Does one perspective offer more hope of a better outcome...only if one believes that "marriage" should be saved at all cost. That isn't me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> guffawing, were that I could "decide" who is healthy or not...no, sorry star, no God complexes here... but kudos for the attempt to "dig" using my point.... Come on, if we all have to experience everything to have opinions or comment on the nature of human existence....we'd all have to go home...or at least participate only in places with folks identical to us, now theres a thought.....a site all sufdb's...or all star's....wonder what that would be like?

<hr /></blockquote>hehehhehehehhe....well you have to admit that you didn't expect to find someone who had experienced both huh??? LOL especially MOI!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> That elevates rejection to life threatening status....which was one of my reasons for the poll....why does choosing less rejecting become the primary rationale....why not choose more rejecting, but a greater growth opportunity....isn't that essentially what sales is aboiut...and why many cannot hack sales....they can't tolerate the rejection....so doesn't that limit opportunity.....and wouldn't the same consideration apply in relationship matters?
<hr /></blockquote>Don't go getting dramatic on me here. Self preservation is not unhealthy....to do otherwise is masochistic. So it takes a good balance between choosing BOTH likely opportunities AND risk. I think I did that. I still prefer the papers.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> this is the crux of it, in your case, would you have preferred the divorce papers, and easier way out (for you, from a rejecting standpoint)....or in hindsite, has the growth you acheived been worth the rejection pain? regardless of whether your marriage improves or you eventually divorce....
<hr /></blockquote>My growth is not DEPENDENT on what anyone else does...papers or affairs. Divorce wasn't the least bit easy....I still love him even now...even married to someone else. I love my current husband as well and wouldn't trade him for the first. Neither of them (or their actions) gets credit for my growth...only their own. I grow because I can. I grow because I'm an insatiable learner and I have spiritual strength. My sister is growing as a result of MS...into the most amazing woman I have ever met....but I'd rather she was healthier and having a much better time than being worried about growth. So would she I think.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And taken too far you have zealotry, ridgidity, and all it's dysfunctional offspring...that is my point. The word integrity implies something good, but it must be qualified, and one must closely examine how a given person manifests "integrity"....I have no doubt suicide bombers consider themself to have great integrity...and by your definition...they do.
<hr /></blockquote>I agree with this suf....and find it quite scary....especially when taken to the extremes like genocide. Fanatics are very scary folks indeed....especially those who believe they have integrity.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> plz do not think anything I say is about you specifically unless I state so....even if it seems like it (long as a general discussion, rather than personal advice is obviously going on).....endless disclaimers about comments being general just get tiresome. <hr /></blockquote>Otay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Wouldn't want to tire out the poor wittle puddy tat!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

[ May 26, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

I would prefer divorce, actually because it's definitive. At least I would know where I stood--my FWS would be saying clearly "I may care about you as a friend, but I don't really want to be married to you anymore."

In my particular situation, I strongly suspect my FWS remaining in the marriage is more a matter of convenience/practical self-interest than any particular attraction or feelings for me personally. He obtains more benefits with less effort on his part by remaining in the marriage than by divorcing.

And if he happens to meet another willing romantic partner whom he finds preferable someday, I would hope he would serve me with divorce papers as opposed to attempting another affair. But I suspect that would not be the case, because as you said, divorce requires much more effort than an A.

If I had to choose, I would definitely choose DIVORCE over the affair. Though I have never been divorced, my parents were and my brother and sister have both been divorced at least once. It is also a painful process, and I am not trying to minimize that, but I would never have believed an affair could be as devastating and damaging as it is. I doubt that anyone who hasn't personally experienced it could understand how horrible it is.

For me divorce would have been much kinder. At least had I been given notice that he had given up on the marriage then I would have still been able to respond - but without the trauma of his affair. Now it's as if he has taken a long tropical vacation without me and away from our marriage - he is refreshed and I am suffering the greatest pain I have ever suffered before. We may still get that divorce anyway and I will ALSO have to carry this scar forever. Divorce first would have spared me all this agony.

Hi Sufbd,

In my first marriage, I choose the Divorce. My marriage to my ex was bad, I'd tried over and over to get him to MC, I enlisted his families support. We'd been married almost seven years.

I started a new job and started having feelings for a man I worked with. I never revealed my feelings to this man and nothing inappropriate ever occurred. Once I acknowledged these feelings to myself, I told my H I wanted a D. I wanted out of that marriage and consciously decided I would not have an Exit Affair (although I guess I did have an exit EA). I never did date that man at work.

I’ve got a wicked reputation for being a prankster, and H & I have discussed this. If he leaves this marriage honorably I will respect his honesty and behave like an adult. We have been through enough MC, IC, and MB that if he’s having problems with this marriage, I know he has the resources to get help long before he enters an A. Our marriage will end if there is an A, so best he leaves first. If he strings me along, lies, and has an A, I will take him for everything he is worth. I will make his life a nightmare. I don’t want to try to repair this marriage if he has an A, we’ve been through enough. - Dru

For me, DEFINITELY, without a DOUBT, I would pick "DIVORCE".

I mean really .... placing the shock, devistation, anger, lieing, deception etc. etc, etc. aside, I know for a fact I could have certainly done without the diseases and subsequent cancer it caused, not to mention the illegitimate children, and lets not forget the death threats and verbal abuse from the OW(s), complete strangers to me.

Pretty much a no-brainer there, suf.

Lv,
Jo

[ May 26, 2004, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Resilient:
 For me, DEFINITELY, without a DOUBT, I would pick "DIVORCE".

I mean really .... placing the shock, devistation, anger, lieing, deception etc. etc, etc. aside, I know for a fact I could have certainly done without the diseases and subsequent cancer it caused, not to mention the illegitimate children, and lets not forget the death threats and verbal abuse from the OW(s), complete strangers to me.

Pretty much a no-brainer there, suf.

Lv,
Jo <hr /></blockquote>I agree, and I commiserate, you were sorely treated...but the poll is not situational....it is general about opportunity and growth....clearly if we could "know" each outcome....sometimes either would be correct...but we can't know, and this poll is not about hindsite...

It is a tough poll though, hard not to answer out of personal experience, rather than the psuchology involved.... I suspect those who had good outcomes, improved marriages, wakeup call to their own issues, etc. would be more inclined to see the opportunity in an affair crisis....than in a divorce decision, which one is less likely to back off from.

"I suspect those who had good outcomes, improved marriages, wakeup call to their own issues, etc. would be more inclined to see the opportunity in an affair crisis....than in a divorce decision, which one is less likely to back off from."

Well... I am one of the lucky ones enjoying an awesome recovery for 8 years now...

And

You "suspect" incorrectly.

I would rather been given a divorce wake up call... than to be a betrayed spouse. Hands down.

You are wrong about this.

Pep

[ May 26, 2004, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Holy kapeevy dust! I'm with Pep, and I'm not even in recovery yet. Not really, that is.

"PAIN!" - Mr. Spock

but the truth is, we didn't get a choice. having said that, I'd still would have preferred my W divorce me 13 years ago rather than have an A.

...this is kind of like a question I was asked a long time ago: "Would you rather be gillotined, or hung (2 death, that is)?", 2 which I replied "I'd rather eat ice cream!"

-ol' 2long

I agree with Pepperband absolutely. We have "recovered" as much as possible, and the man I am married to is truly a much better person than he was before. So I guess the affair was a "growth experience" for him. But even with the hindsight of five years of this behind me I would STILL choose divorce over the affair. Without a doubt.

And if I had the power to turn back the clock and absolutely KNOW the future of all this, I would STILL choose the divorce.

I don't know, but I am guessing that the creator of this poll had an affair and still doesn't "get it". Am I right? I've never seen the name before, but the writing style is definitely very familiar. Is this a former poster with just a new name?

Nope,,,6 years of recovery,,,a far better marriage ,,,and I still agree with Pep.

A divorce would have been far more merciful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 "I suspect those who had good outcomes, improved marriages, wakeup call to their own issues, etc. would be more inclined to see the opportunity in an affair crisis....than in a divorce decision, which one is less likely to back off from."

Well... I am one of the lucky ones enjoying an awesome recovery for 8 years now...

And

You "suspect" incorrectly.

I would rather been given a divorce wake up call... than to be a betrayed spouse. Hands down.

You are wrong about this.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>ok, I stand corrected re yourself anyways (why I said suspect...I don't know)...and apparently some others..... but I have to ask, is the quality of your marriage now such that you would willingly forgo it (and be divorced) then have experienced the affair? And, do you think you learned nothing (of value) about yourself, life, etc. any differently by way of affair than you would of from divorce?

Give up, SNL.

Your desperate attempts to justify your decisions are glaring.

These people are answering honestly.

For the record, since I didn't answer your poll, I would have MUCH prefered honesty. In essence, this is what your poll is about: Do you prefer honesty or lies from pond scum?

WAT

[ May 26, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]

but I have to ask, is the quality of your marriage now such that you would willingly forgo it (and be divorced) then have experienced

the affair?

I must not understand the question....

Are you implying that the wonderful relationship I currently enjoy is ~because~ of the affair????

Surely you jest!

It is largely ~in spite of~ the affair.

And, do you think you learned nothing (of value) about yourself, life, etc. any differently by way of affair than you would of from divorce?

I have learned things of value, yes. And my Mother recently died, and I learned things of value....

But I would prefer my Mother were alive today, as I would prefer to never have been a betrayed spouse.

Your point?

Pep

[ May 26, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

OK, NOW SNL, I have voted - just to see the results. And the results are equally glaring.

The vast, vast majority would have preferred divorce papers.

Give up SNL.

We will not help you find closure - not because we don't want you to, but because we want you to for the right reasons.

BTW, your theories for the demise of my marriage are WAY off. But I'm flattered that you have this need to disprove me personally. Coming from you, it merely reinforces my theories.

WAT

I can't resist this one.....

I would definitely choose divorce over affair (even if I was the one to have the affair).

But I'll go even further.....

Illness that could be terminal VS Affair?? .....

If the terminal illness was mine, I would choose affair. If the illness was the WS's I would choose Illness instead of Affair--even if WS died from the illness, I would still choose that over an Affair.

I'd still prefer ice cream

I voted 2!!! ...I mean "too!!!"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

Just come clean with your alter ago:

from this post on Divorced/Divorcing, April 21, 2004

<blockquote>quote:<hr />as posted by sufdb: My name is sufdb, I would appreciate your adherence to TOS and address me thusly. I remind you annonymity is something gauranteed to all who choose to post here, and whoever I might be in real life, or in another user ID is my business, and my business only, please respect that.<hr /></blockquote>and: <blockquote>quote:<hr />By elspeth, 4/22/04, on DD: Have you considered not responding to folks who address you by other names? My hunch is, so long as you respond when being addressed as something other than sufdb, people will keep doing it.<hr /></blockquote>and by

<blockquote>quote:<hr />as posted by peppermint on your poll: I don't know, but I am guessing that the creator of this poll had an affair and still doesn't "get it". Am I right? I've never seen the name before, but the writing style is definitely very familiar. Is this a former poster with just a new name?<hr /></blockquote>Your agenda is clear. You're despreately trying to justify your infidelity. We won't bite. Give up and adopt yet again an alter ego that we can yet reveal.

WAT

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ark wrote regarding divorce -vs an affair:
...the amount of gross disrepect that is involved just on the nature of an affair is undeniably a factor that seperates the two on the spectrum...<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />and sufdb responded:
....how so.....gross disrespect abounds in marriages, especially long-term dysfunctional marriages....hard to see where that is preferable to the disrespect of a affair.<hr /></blockquote>suf,

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Divorce -vs an Affair.

Up above it appears you, suf, are citing a WS's justifications and his reasons he had his affair and then comparing THAT to the disrespect of an affair from a BS POV, instead of comparing it to Divorce as originally requested.

Why are you veering off into the WS's reasons/justifications for having an affair?

Jo

<blockquote>quote:<hr />suf wrote:
ok, ok, disclaimer here re std's, that is a practical physical concern, I was speaking more to the psychological issues. Agreed the std thing is a biggy, and skews the outcome ... but I am not sure that is what particularly causes the emotional reaction....so, for the poll, don't consider std, the affair is all EA, or not std related physical contact.<hr /></blockquote>So, we just pretend these things don't happen and you can then sterilize and homogenize an affair to meet your poll requirements, interesting.

Just a guess, but are you also running for president?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Resilient:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />suf wrote:
ok, ok, disclaimer here re std's, that is a practical physical concern, I was speaking more to the psychological issues. Agreed the std thing is a biggy, and skews the outcome ... but I am not sure that is what particularly causes the emotional reaction....so, for the poll, don't consider std, the affair is all EA, or not std related physical contact.<hr /></blockquote>So, we just pretend these things don't happen and you can then sterilize and homogenize an affair to meet your poll requirements, interesting.

Just a guess, but are you also running for president? <hr /></blockquote>no, not anytime soon. res, you are making too much of this, I addressed your valid std issue....it is just a poll, and not particularly well designed, but arose from the common lament, of why didn't you just divorce me first. Clearly life doesn't work that way anywho, affairs/divorces/marital disharmony are very messy places, which are often driven by a huge emotional component, which by definition is not rational.... The only um..."wondering" was whether the pain of a affair was offset by the growth opportunities, such opportunities being less likely to occur when divorce simply applied for.

Instead of addressing this (which could be more about my setting up the poll clearly.....or whatever), many responded more about their own sitch, and the pain vs less pain.....actually this outcome in itself is quite interesting and revealing about the temperament of those populateing this site... But I am not sure what it means, except that pain is more important than growth as a concern.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by worthatry:
 Just come clean with your alter ago:

from this post on Divorced/Divorcing, April 21, 2004

<blockquote>quote:<hr />as posted by sufdb: My name is sufdb, I would appreciate your adherence to TOS and address me thusly. I remind you annonymity is something gauranteed to all who choose to post here, and whoever I might be in real life, or in another user ID is my business, and my business only, please respect that.<hr /></blockquote>and: <blockquote>quote:<hr />By elspeth, 4/22/04, on DD: Have you considered not responding to folks who address you by other names? My hunch is, so long as you respond when being addressed as something other than sufdb, people will keep doing it.<hr /></blockquote>and by

<blockquote>quote:<hr />as posted by peppermint on your poll: I don't know, but I am guessing that the creator of this poll had an affair and still doesn't "get it". Am I right? I've never seen the name before, but the writing style is definitely very familiar. Is this a former poster with just a new name?<hr /></blockquote>Your agenda is clear. You're despreately trying to justify your infidelity. We won't bite. Give up and adopt yet again an alter ego that we can yet reveal.

WAT <hr /></blockquote>sufdb...you haven't a clue wat, why in the world does this interest you anyways?

re the poll, it is just a poll for the reasons stated, talked about in this thread.....in what convoluted manner can you make the case this is to validate infidelity? Infidelity is an extremely stupid decision to make, but completely understandable (read Harley, he explains all this adequately), but if it is part of the typical human experience (and it is so universal as to be "normal" behavior, and everyone capable), so maybe though one would not "choose" this (as bs or ws) it still may be a substantial growth opportunity, and I am curious why that is not more recognized....and wonder if perhaps lamenting and commiserateing about this simply makes it worse than it really is... But judgeing by those who would choose divorce, apparently the pain isn't percieved as worth the gain.

"The only um..."wondering" was whether the pain of a affair was offset by the growth opportunities, such opportunities being less likely to occur when divorce simply applied for."

Don't follow. I'm not going through a DV, but everyone tells me that it would be harder than what I am going through. Hard 2 believe that from the trenches, but I accept that it is probably true.

Again, the issue is honesty versus dishonesty. The "right thing 2 do" would be 2 end the M and go through a healing time 2 learn the difference between loneliness and soli2de, before getting involved with someone else - 2 "get one's ENs met" through a desperate act of extreme selfishness and cruelty.

Are the oppor2nities for growth greater after an A than after a DV? I sure as heck doubt it. Different, but not greater or lesser. Dependent on the sitch, perhaps.

This pole is a goofy excercise in mental mas2rbation, IMVHO, a Rube Goldberg distraction from one's own responsibility 2 take charge of their personal growth, no matter their life si2ation.

Persevere,
-ol' 2long

[ May 27, 2004, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]

long...Again, the issue is honesty versus dishonesty.

sufdb...not really, all humans lie, that is the least of the issues (is a given an affair involves deceit)...however, a pattern of regular deciet in a marriage would suggest one is not marriage material....but so would a pattern of infidelity, financial irresponsibiity, pattern of slovenliness, pattern of neglect, nagging....lots of patterns....all deal breakers.

long...The "right thing 2 do" would be 2 end the M and go through a healing time 2 learn the difference between loneliness and soli2de, before getting involved with someone else - 2 "get one's ENs met" through a desperate act of extreme selfishness and cruelty.

sufdb...there is no right to it. Perhaps you meant be good advice for sound psychological reasons....I agree...but generally we are not adequately trained re relationships as young adults, and are not equipped to consider that option. Rather instead we are "encouraged" to remain married no matter what....and that divorce is yucky. So we hang on until the inevitable happens, that is just plain ole psych 101. If one relationship fails (the married one, even though not officially recognized with a divorce decree), humans will seek another, and so it has been since time began.

long...Are the oppor2nities for growth greater after an A than after a DV? I sure as heck doubt it. Different, but not greater or lesser. Dependent on the sitch, perhaps.

sufdb...It is situational...but in the general case affairs offer more growth, precisely cause they are more traumatic, and have more issues...the complexity generates the growth.

long...This pole is a goofy excercise in mental mas2rbation, IMVHO, a Rube Goldberg distraction from one's own responsibility 2 take charge of their personal growth, no matter their life si2ation.

sufdb....your colorful dismissal of my poll is noted, but not concured with. I think it is a useful topic to consider, and can affect ones perception/attitude in a positive manner.

[ May 27, 2004, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

nsso... sufdb, the problem with your grasping the idea of someone preferring divorce over an affair is that you're looking at the affair situation through your own experiences.

sufdb...we all are, such is life, our understanding of relationship issues cannot help but be biased by our relationship experiences...best we can do is muddle through as open minded as possible. The poll was an attempt to generalize some data...but the recipients (by their own admission) are tending to answer based on pain, rather than growth...but that itself is an answer.

nsso.. My ex's A took place without any major warning that things were going downhill. We had sex regularly, slept in the same bed, ate dinner together and attended events together. I had no idea when the A started initially and only began to see signs of it(missed time, him not wanting sex, ect.)when it was already a few months into it. It came completely from left field and there was no emotional detachment from my end.

sufdb...I agree (again) how one experiences a divorce is situational...but that isn't what the poll is about, it is a rational question, but it is being answered emotionally. In your case the poll is still valid....by experienceing (and surviving) the shock of a "less" emotionally ready affair, you had to slay certain demons...those demons would not have been raised had you simply recieved divorce papers (whether you reconcille or not in either case is irrelevant). Do you see any value in slaying those dragons relative to the cost (ie pain)? The old whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger thingy.

nsso...I definately would have preferred him going through the divorce route first instead of humliating me behind my back to people I knew,

sufdb...Isn't humiliation a self-inflicted injury? You can't be humiliated unless you choose to respond thusly to a circumstance?

nsso...spending our hard earned in our joint account money on gifts and dates for another woman behind my back

sufdb...would it have made any financial difference had he taken the money to vegas, blown it gambling, and then filed divorce papers?

nsso...Being served would have hurt but I would not have been given the same degree of baggage to be rid of afterward had he just ended our marriage instead of denegrating me before finally filing. It was like the final hard kick in the [censored] before throwing me out the door.

sufdb...yes, this is my point, is that baggage of value in your life (the lemonade thingy). And is it..or not, a matter of fact...or attitude? (half full, half empty thingy).

nsso...I'm a very positive person overall and do look at the glass as half-full. I do see it as a learning experience but quite honestly I wish I never had to learn that even the most trusted person in your life can turn on you and do horrible things to you. I know it now and so really don't 100% trust anyone anymore. Lesson learned.

sufdb...so you had divorce, never learned that, and in your less painful ignorance, not exercised enough diligence in a remarriage, and ended up with an affair visited on you then....is that more likely without the experience of an affair...only a divorce? And if so (because obviously it is) is the risk of this ignorance worth it or not in terms of the pain of an affair?

nsso...I am happy to be out of the situation, grateful for the tremendous resiliency it gave me but really a plain old divorce would have been preferable if given a choice.

sufdb...then in hindsite, answer this. Would you give up what you had learned from the affair (and that resilientcy) for the easier out of a divorce? Or do you think the lessons learned would be the same (I don't...the differece in experienceing is just too big....of course that is why the pain difference is large too, and why people are opting for the smaller pain).

Good grief, I knew this stuff sounded familiar. I think WAT's right. Sorry I even responded. Now I feel icky by association.

Can I choose the A OP?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by worthatry:
 Give up, SNL.

Your desperate attempts to justify your decisions are glaring.

These people are answering honestly.

For the record, since I didn't answer your poll, I would have MUCH prefered honesty. In essence, this is what your poll is about: Do you prefer honesty or lies from pond scum?

WAT <hr /></blockquote>Ditto.

Suf, all I can do is answer you honestly. That's what I did. I guess you can try to make anything seem like a postive learning experience. Hell, if you want to stretch it out beyond reason you can also say being sexually assualted as a kid was a learning experience for me since I learned that being a female is a risky venture.

You can also stretch out your thinking to say it's my fault the sexual assualt hurt me since I choose to let it hurt me, same as my feeling over the humiliation of my ex's A and the way people were covering up for him and laughing at me behind my back.

I'm not sure why you can't just take it at face value when I say the cons of going through the A experience way outweighed the pros. What I learned from the experience was not something that really benefitted my life and made me a bit more cynical about relationships in general. Sure it put my internal strengths to the test but you know I would rather not have had to waste precious months of my life having been mentally and emotionally distraught due to my ex's decision to chase some young tail.

You ask, what's the difference if he had blown our money in Vegas as opposed to spending it on OW? Let me tell you, there's absolutely nothing like getting a $500 bill on the card on which you are the primary holder(and thus responsible for the bill) from Zales jewelry for the diamond bracelet your H bought for his mistress. It's quite an experience and no it's not the same thing.

You seem so unwilling to accept that it's human nature to prefer to avoid large doses of pain and that if someone does they're just "rule makers" or short sighted or negative. You seem very unwilling to accept that people are not automatons able to just process extremely negative experiences and make them postives. Some things are just bad no matter how much you try to sugar coat them.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />sufdb...not really, all humans lie, that is the least of the issues (is a given an affair involves deceit)... <hr /></blockquote>I don't know what hat you pulled that rabbit out of but you are dead wrong.

In fact you could read 100 books on infidelity by the top selling authors and 99 of them will tell you the lies are often harder for the Bs to get over than the sexual part of the affair.

You have built your entire argument on a false premise.

Divorce vs affair, which would you choose? That is the question. Making good choices according to every guide I could find about good decision making involves looking at all sides of the equation...possible opportunity, but also assessing possible loss. Only considering one or the other....pain for instance, isn't very wise...it can lead to fear and insecurity. However, only considering opportunity isn't any wiser....such decisions can be implusive, irresponsible or risky. Most of us, will try to weigh both the pros and the cons suf....and yet you insist that if we even consider the potential losses that we're being negative. I don't think we are. I think we're being smart and that it IS a more rational, approach to decision making. Affairs are a good example of decisions based on gain....with with little or no attention to loss. Staying in a bad marriage might be a decision based on loss with no thought for opportunity. There are times when the potential for gain is so great that risk is ignored. There are also instances where the potential loss is so great that any gains are not seen as very attractive. Rational decision making is about exploring both of those options. You asked us to do that....and most of us, were willing to weigh opportunity and loss and still decide that we would rather have the papers.

ufdb..."not really, all humans lie, that is the least of the issues (is a given an affair involves deceit)"

Yes really. Not all humans lie. It IS possible (and probably necessary) 2 be private without being secretive - lying by omission - but the reasonable bounds of privacy within a M are a lot narrower than they are in dealing with acquaintences in daily life.

In the end, after a DV or an A, the measure of just how much an oppor2nity one makes of the experience is how much have you grown from it? Ideally, even DV'd former partners should be able 2 respect one another. Most DV'd 2ples sadly choose 2 hate each other and play painful resentment games for the rest of their lives. Similarly, 2ples that stay 2gether after infidelity damned well better have grown, lest the mistake gets repeated by one of them in the fu2re. Ufdb, how have you and your xW grown from your experiences?

Also in the end, it's not even a 2uestion of whether one would prefer DV or the A, because here we are with the hands we've been dealt (and most of us will have 2 agonize over BOTH decisions over the course of healing from the A anyway). It isn't compiling statistics about how we'd reinvent the past if we couldn't (because we can't), it's what we do with the present moment and how we plan for the fu2re, that's important.

-ol' 2long

you POSTED this when you asked for our responses:

"Please do not offer perfect world options"

Yet you obviously have a severe hang-up about BS's mentioning the emotional pain, risk of STD's, being lied to...

You pretend that for us to acknowledge the negatives of adultery is to be negative, that we are unfairly (from your foggy POV?) skewing the results of the poll.

IMO you just want somebody to assure you that adultery is somehow OK, that it's actually the kinder thing to do to the betrayed spouse (since they can maybe use it as a growth experience?)

I'm guessing you've been deprived of such a 'growth experience' yourself. Maybe the only way you can 'grow' enough to truly understand our POV is for somebody to betray your trust with adultery? Maybe we should all start praying that will happen to you so you can 'grow'?

You also seem to believe that we betrayed spouses would prefer to remain in the marriage no matter what? Nope. Most of us CLEARLY communicate in our posting that although we'd like to save our marriages, we only want to do so if the marriage is made safe and satisfying for both spouses. This is one of the (many) parts of the equation you seem intent on ignoring. You want us to pretend that if a spouse had come to us in honesty and asked for a divorce, that there'd be no chance whatsoever of reconciliation, that adultery supposedly offers the ONLY chance of the marriage continuing.

You sound annoyed that betrayed spouses don't appreciate having been put through the betrayal of adultery. You clearly don't understand, let alone respect, the betrayed spouses' POV. I found it difficult to believe your insistance that adultery somehow benefits it's victims is motivated by genuine concern for what WE want or feel!

And NO - your posing as logical superiority isn't believeable either - too many variables conveniently ignored with your (foggy) thinking. Too much attempting to justify with focusing on the pros of adultery while refusing to consider the cons of adultery - nothing 'realistic' about that - just that same old self-serving fog-babble we've heard before from adulterers.

Would YOU prefer to have somebody else make your decisions for you, based on whatever criteria or agenda is important to THEM (and the OP)? Would you think it's acceptable for somebody to put you at risk for an STD, to lie to you? Would you think they did it because they wanted to give you a growing experience? Would you be OK with them assuming that you'd rather be lied to than to (maybe) lose them? Are YOU that insecure that you'd rather be cheated on than divorced? Or is that how you assured yourself it was OK to cheat on your spouse?

Obviously the majority of betrayed spouses don't share your POV. Surprising as it may seem to you, NO, most people would NOT prefer to be patronizingly lied to and cheated on. The mature, logical thing for you to do now is to stop whining and accept the poll results. Or you could go post your poll on the TOW board where no doubt you will find posters who 'think' (rationalize) more like you do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> given an imminent marital ending.....would you prefer (think your chances better) to be dealing with a walk away spouse, or a ws. If so the later, than complaining about how awful the ws is, and why didn't they just "leave" if they were unhappy is hypocritical....and self-servingly manipulative to say to your ws.
<hr /></blockquote>sufdb,

Your little poll does not seem to be the issue here. The issue is apparently the continued lashing that you are receiving from your XW. This is something that you have no control over and I'm sure it can be very irritating to say the least. I am curious as to why it bothers you since you are now divorced.

I must admit that I am often entertained by your (IMO) warped sense of logic. For you to infer that the BS is self-serving, manipulative and hypocritical for daring to assassinate the character of a WS is hypocritical in and of itself.

I think I could safely assume that you (as a WS) were manipulative and self-serving in your wayward actions. You certainly weren't acting in the best interest of the M.

Using your own sense of logic, I really don't think you should "take offense" at the continued lashing of your character by your XW. She is simply being "radically honest". Her comments cannnot hurt or offend you unless you "choose" to "take offense".

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by meremortal:
 you POSTED this when you asked for our responses:

"Please do not offer perfect world options"

Yet you obviously have a severe hang-up about BS's mentioning the emotional pain, risk of STD's, being lied to...

You pretend that for us to acknowledge the negatives of adultery is to be negative, that we are unfairly (from your foggy POV?) skewing the results of the poll.

IMO you just want somebody to assure you that adultery is somehow OK, that it's actually the kinder thing to do to the betrayed spouse (since they can maybe use it as a growth experience?)

I'm guessing you've been deprived of such a 'growth experience' yourself. Maybe the only way you can 'grow' enough to truly understand our POV is for somebody to betray your trust with adultery? Maybe we should all start praying that will happen to you so you can 'grow'?

You also seem to believe that we betrayed spouses would prefer to remain in the marriage no matter what? Nope. Most of us CLEARLY communicate in our posting that although we'd like to save our marriages, we only want to do so if the marriage is made safe and satisfying for both spouses. This is one of the (many) parts of the equation you seem intent on ignoring. You want us to pretend that if a spouse had come to us in honesty and asked for a divorce, that there'd be no chance whatsoever of reconciliation, that adultery supposedly offers the ONLY chance of the marriage continuing.

You sound annoyed that betrayed spouses don't appreciate having been put through the betrayal of adultery. You clearly don't understand, let alone respect, the betrayed spouses' POV. I found it difficult to believe your insistance that adultery somehow benefits it's victims is motivated by genuine concern for what WE want or feel!

And NO - your posing as logical superiority isn't believeable either - too many variables conveniently ignored with your (foggy) thinking. Too much attempting to justify with focusing on the pros of adultery while refusing to consider the cons of adultery - nothing 'realistic' about that - just that same old self-serving fog-babble we've heard before from adulterers.

Would YOU prefer to have somebody else make your decisions for you, based on whatever criteria or agenda is important to THEM (and the OP)? Would you think it's acceptable for somebody to put you at risk for an STD, to lie to you? Would you think they did it because they wanted to give you a growing experience? Would you be OK with them assuming that you'd rather be lied to than to (maybe) lose them? Are YOU that insecure that you'd rather be cheated on than divorced? Or is that how you assured yourself it was OK to cheat on your spouse?

Obviously the majority of betrayed spouses don't share your POV. Surprising as it may seem to you, NO, most people would NOT prefer to be patronizingly lied to and cheated on. The mature, logical thing for you to do now is to stop whining and accept the poll results. Or you could go post your poll on the TOW board where no doubt you will find posters who 'think' (rationalize) more like you do. <hr /></blockquote>mm,

your response has nothing to do with the poll, but appears to be a vent of some kind, or displaced anger....it is just a poll addressing what it said...that is the whole point of polls, nothing more or less than the reasons stated....all this analysis about me is rather pointless, and kinda dumnb actually....it is pretty much a given no one here (or on any annonymous board) really has any concern what some disgruntled (and rude) individual thinks of them...that is true for me as well....but if it makes you feel better to be insulting, be my guest....as for the point you think the poll is poorly constructed, I get it, but you really didn't need all that to say so. You might want to consider the roll your obvious biases, and disrespectful manner play in your marital difficulties....perhaps the poll was useful to you in that way.

[ May 27, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

So far, the results are:

80% (n=44) would prefer divorce papers over an affair

20% (n=11) would prefer an affair first before any divorce papers

~~~~

The votes speak! What does this vote outcome mean to you?

Pep

"Today's number is 234826734. That's 2908372 more than the number for this day last year, and 3729 less than the average number for this season."

-ol' 2long

ba it is just a poll...but all this analysis of things other than the poll (or it's stated content) is fascinateing, why do you think this is happening?

ba...Your little poll does not seem to be the issue here. The issue is apparently the continued lashing that you are receiving from your XW. This is something that you have no control over and I'm sure it can be very irritating to say the least. I am curious as to why it bothers you since you are now divorced.

sufdb...your premise is incorrect. I have no such issue, nor did anything of that sort motivate the poll. The motivation was a curiosity over the phenomena of people regularly lamenting why didn't you divorce me first....It seems strange to me, that people who often claim the marriage is all important to them would choose divorce over a better (albeit more painful) chance at personal growth...that premise has evoked some discussion over whether one experience or the other inherently suggests more growth...but the real interesting outcome is that even if it does, people prefer the less painful life experience.....the poll was very successful IMO because it revealed this, something I did not expect... It is behavior that interests be ba...I have few of the issues folks like to assign me...mostly what is said about me, a person no one even knows, reveals more about them than it does about me....and is usually wildly inaccurate to boot. Thx for your comments.

ba...I must admit that I am often entertained by your (IMO) warped sense of logic. For you to infer that the BS is self-serving, manipulative and hypocritical for daring to assassinate the character of a WS is hypocritical in and of itself.

sufdb...Is is it possible to have warped logic? Isn't that an oxymoron? Heck, anyone who posts a position/opinion is gonna live or die by how well they make their case, but I have noticed those who are unable to refute others points tend to attack them as a sort of secondary method to refute them....kill the messenger thingy. But glad you find some value, even entertained means you are at least thinking....that is more than some close minds are willing to do.

ba...I think I could safely assume that you (as a WS) were manipulative and self-serving in your wayward actions. You certainly weren't acting in the best interest of the M.

sufdb....I think that describes the nature of ws'dom by definition...and yep, guilty as charged...for that period of time. I don't think my poll is suggesting choosing an affair is acting in the best interest of the marriage, that would be nonesense...the poll is about the fact this is life, and people who have life visited on them can either grow for the better or miss the opportunity (which kinda makes the life event worse)...both divorce and affairs are heavy duty events, and I linked them because they are closely related.

ba...Using your own sense of logic, I really don't think you should "take offense" at the continued lashing of your character by your XW. She is simply being "radically honest". Her comments cannnot hurt or offend you unless you "choose" to "take offense".

sufdb...I rarely take offense about much of anything, as you pointed out that is a choice... But your implication libel/slande/gossipr is of no concern in our society is way off the mark, such are serious concern, for many reasons, but that isn't the purpose of this thread, you could start another if that subject interests you, could be a good one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It seems strange to me, that people who often claim the marriage is all important to them would choose divorce over a better (albeit more painful) chance at personal growth <hr /></blockquote>Please demonstrate/explain (instead of just stating) to me how an affair is a "better" chance for personal growth. Also, could you please explain why divorce is a "worse" chance for personal growth.

I see both situations as having equal opportunities for growth depending on how healthy the individual is. Marriage is certainly not the only (or best) opportunity for personal growth necessarily. What if I divorced for instance and joined the Peace Corps? Seems like that might be a huge opportunity for personal growth...that being married would never afford. Likewise, an affair can offer opportunities for growth...but they really do seem far more limited to me. Do you not agree?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:


sufdb....I think that describes the nature of ws'dom by definition...and yep, guilty as charged...for that period of time. I don't think my poll is suggesting choosing an affair is acting in the best interest of the marriage, that would be nonesense...the poll is about the fact this is life, and people who have life visited on them can either grow for the better or miss the opportunity (which kinda makes the life event worse)...both divorce and affairs are heavy duty events, and I linked them because they are closely related.
<hr /></blockquote>Okay, you asked if you had a choice would you rather divorce or go through the affair experience, not if you've gone through the affair experience did you come out of it a better person. Two very different things there.

I went through the affair and divorce experience, did I come out a wiser person for it? Yes. Did I learn anything of value from it? Yes.

If an omnipotent being had shown me both options beforehand with all of their attendent consequences, good and bad, and gave me the choice of going through a betrayl or going through a vanilla divorce and asked which would I have chosen? The divorce.

Why?

The affair and his behavior during it drove me to a level of emotional upheaval which caused me to make bad decisions and put my own life on hold for a long period.

The affair put us both but especially me in deep financial debt that I carried out with me after the divorce. This made setting up my new life doubly difficult.

The affair and his behavior during it had the effect of coloring my view of the entire 10 year relationship. I can't look back on much without being reminded of the affair's ugliness. I wish it weren't so but it is. The last impression has stuck unfortunately.

The affair involved a lot of drama having to do with the OW's antics. I didn't invite her into my life but she was let in and ran roughshod over things that had nothing to do with her. A virtual stranger to me was now whispering in my H's ear giving him pointers on how to screw me over. A third person with her own vested interest and a mean spirit can do a lot of damage.

That's just some of it. I don't want to divulge it all because I'm not interested in re-hashing stuff that's over. I don't sit around bemoaning my lot in life or blaming my ex for all of my problems or even for everything that happened during the A and divorce. I'm not bitter and angry about it. I've made peace with what happened and hope he's gotten his life back on track and is doing okay.

So yes, I have tekn some positives from it and did the best I could with the hand that I was dealt but by no means would I actively choose to go down that road. The cost was not worth any benefit received. I think had we seperated first and starting talking divorce before he decided to pursue and affair I would have handled things much better(less emotionally), he would have been inclined to be more fair and less cut-throat without his little chippie encouraging him to get nasty with me and we probably would have remained friendly after the fact.

But instead I got waffling, cake eating, fence sitting, lying, hiding of assets and clandestine cleaning out of accounts, angry sex, leaving and then coming back time and time again, exposure to possible disease, private issues divulged to a third party who used them to prod me(OW actually wrote me once about my relationship with ex and my rape issues and so on. Real nice), and a betrayl of my trust. The lying did hurt worst of all and had left me wondering what else he lied about over the course of our marriage.

So, I'm not at all sure why you don't understand that a request for divorce handled in a mature fashion would not have been much more preferable to an affair and all the drama that came along with it.

[ May 27, 2004, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Not-so-Silent-Observer ]

Originally posted by star*fish:
Please demonstrate/explain (instead of just stating) to me how an affair is a "better" chance for personal growth. Also, could you please explain why divorce is a "worse" chance for personal growth.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I was going to ask this EXACT question!!!

????? separated at birth perhaps?????????

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 So far, the results are:

80% (n=44) would prefer divorce papers over an affair

20% (n=11) would prefer an affair first before any divorce papers

~~~~

The votes speak! What does this vote outcome mean to you?

Pep <hr /></blockquote>I commented a bit on ba response, but I am surprised. I had anticipated a larger number of people would prefer the growth experience, and thusly greater likelihood of a good outcome (including healthy recover...as opposed to phoney/false recovery)...there is something about going through the fire that is usually good for humans. Since most of the discussion favoring divorce seemed to be about pain avoidance, that suggests the population here is assesing this emotionally...pain avoidance is an instinctual (ie emotional) solution to life. It is also interesting (to me) the power people give to emotional pain, as if it were a physical injury.. I would prefer an emotional injury any day to a debilitateing physical injury, emotional recovery is simply a matter of decision is fully recoverable...if one wants to recover...IMO an essential part of that recovery is realizing what an opportunity relationship failures, or other "tradjedies" such as death of a loved one is. It also suggests to me people are far less rational about relationship matters than is healthy for them, and vest way too much of their personal well-being externally (the whole notion of you are my life), this is not only unhealthy for the individual, but for the person visited upon...only God warrants this kind of focus. It makes me wonder how many marriages fail precisely cause they have too high an emotional content...but I digress.

I also consider the premise may be wrong, that an affair related crisis has more scope/content for growth...but no one has refuted that, and it makes sense that something more emotionally painful would imply more "stuff" to deal with and grow from. In my case being a ws was so diametrically opposed to who I am and what I believe and how I live my life as too absolutely demand I drop everything and figure out what in the heck happened to me...heck, I was even a monogamous dater for crying out loud....and loyal to a fault. The experience and aftermath have been searing, but I can see where simply divorcing would have led to a completely different (and less "growth") outcome. My ingrained weak areas are of the kind that appear as good traits, rescuer...problem solver, empath...but have a deadly achilles heel. I doubt I ever would have realized that any other way. Likewise I was ignorant (naive) re the power of human attraction, I was in the camp (of many here) my eithics affair proofed me, that I was married, and married people don't do such things....I was so stupid, and didn't even know that attitude is not only an empty protection, but lulls you into a false sense of security making you even more vulnerable. That you could learn from others, but like most, I had no training in marital dynamics (especially the danger of emotional disconnection from your spouse), was just winging it...still I was trustworthy and faithful for thirty years...that counts for something.

I know now I placed myself in harms way when I gave up, and finally was contemplateing a future seperated (married, but not living together, how foolish in hindsite I was)from my wife after the kids were raised....a topic she had put on the table many times, and I had resisted (for religious reasons).

No doubt a bs will say, yeah wonderful, you grow and kill the bs...but remember this is not a choice one can (or should) make as a solution....I was only addressing the if it occurs is it of greater value than a divorce. But when I took the poll I answered divorce. I did so cause in my particular case the experience of being a bs would have been very different than as a ws (and that is true for because they are different experiences, I should have asked the question from both viewpoints). I am not particularly actualized in others, and if someone wants to leave me, I will not have a strong reaction (it is impossible for an empath to react that way, they prefer the person to go), so there is little for me to "learn", and the fact the relationship failed is the same for each event, and leads to the same contemplation.growth without all the other stuff.

I don't like rejection any more than anyone else, but rejection of me for someone else is no different than rejection for any other reason...but for those who rejection for someone else is a huge deal, have much they need to learn, and correct in themself...hence one of the values of experienceing an affair over plain divorce.

Anyways, there is a few thoughts, of side interest is the obsession over analyzing me, or displacing anger to me....I still haven't really figured out why some people just cannot be rational, but perhaps that also explains in part the poll results.

what do you think pep?

I had anticipated a larger number of people would prefer the growth experience,

What the hell is "the growth experience"? Please 'splain.

and thusly greater likelihood of a good outcome (including healthy recover

I am soooo lost ...

What "good outcome'?

What is a healthy recovery? You mean marital recovery or personal recovery?

...as opposed to phoney/false recovery)

This is the most confusing thing you've ever written... please do this part again... and spell it out so I know what you're talkin' 'bout.

...there is something about going through the fire that is usually good for humans.

Unless one gets so scared they cannot function. Ever work as an RN on a burn unit?

Interesting analogy you made.

Since most of the discussion favoring divorce seemed to be about pain avoidance,

Wrong...

Some is about the pain...
Some is about the loss of self...

some is about being humiliated and degraded... a completely different emotional weave than simply pain avoidance...

more later...

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 Originally posted by star*fish:
Please demonstrate/explain (instead of just stating) to me how an affair is a "better" chance for personal growth. Also, could you please explain why divorce is a "worse" chance for personal growth.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I was going to ask this EXACT question!!!

????? separated at birth perhaps?????????

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>I have here and there, but to state it more precisely (sorta of mathematically)....that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger...so that which almost but just short of killing you will make you strongest....ie all agree an affair is more painful than straight up divorce...ergo, more growth opportunity.

I dunno of course, one would have to effect mucho studies, set up protocols, argue over data blah blah blah...but you do hear people often note the affair resulted in a huge wakeup call that led to a good result....divorce papers just don't seem to have that zing (or result in that observation, more likely leads to fine, then leave if you don't like it here), obviously both can result in recovery or divorce.....but there is something about rejection for another person that really grips people and leads to some serious soul searching like nothing else can, as well as some real interesting reactions.....do you (and pep) agree with that analysis?

Suf, you are assuming that every BS behaves like your BS and does the whole "you are my life!" routine and claiming that the A/WS is "killing" them. That's not always the case.

In my case I didn't rush to end the M as soon as I found out about the A due to my own personal feelings about wanting to give it every last chance, because I did love him in spite of it and the fact that ex didn't want to end it. His own idea was to "leave" for a few months, play around with the OW and then come back. I wasn't having it, I didn't agree to an open marriage. I needed a decision one way or the other and he kept changing his mind and swinging between missing me and then acting like a complete [censored] when OW was influencing him. He was addicted to the very beautiful and extremely young girl who he was playing with, it's amazing what sex and a hot looking chick on your arm can do to some men. I'm glad we're divorced now and that there were no kids involved in that mess.

You have to keep in mind that all A's are not created equal and neither are all BS/WS.

....ie all agree an affair is more painful than straight up divorce...ergo, more growth opportunity.

I don't know if an affair is more painful than a straight up divorce.

I do believe an affair is drenched with personal humiliation and a divorce is not.

..but there is something about rejection for another person that really grips people and leads to some serious soul searching like nothing else can,

Are you saying that divorce is not a rejection?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />suf wrote:
the poll is about the fact this is life, and people who have life visited on them can either grow for the better or miss the opportunity (which kinda makes the life event worse)...both divorce and affairs are heavy duty events, and I linked them because they are closely related<hr /></blockquote>Suf,

Your poll simply asked which would we choose, a Divorce or an Affair.

I experienced both (Divorce and an affair) and I answered your poll honestly, although not as scrubed and sterile as you would have preferred, and choose Divorce.

Your comment above regarding missed opportunties in either of these life experineces does not mean that anyone that answered the poll did/would not take advantage of either circumstance to grow and learn.

I just have to say that great degree of your responses within this entire thread reads a WS making attempts at convincing themselves they did their BS a favor by creating an opportunity to grow/learn by having an affair.

Just a keen observation.

Jo

[ May 27, 2004, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> but there is something about rejection for another person that really grips people and leads to some serious soul searching like nothing else can, as well as some real interesting reactions.....do you (and pep) agree with that analysis? <hr /></blockquote>okay....here is the part of this statement I CAN agree with. Yes, there is a certain element of rejection (of any kind) but especially rejection over another person that can lead to real soul searching. But the opportunity for soul searching can be prompted by so MANY MANY things that are capable of producing results that to see an affair as a desirable because of that seems really short sighted. The divorce, would free me completely to pursue those sorts of opportunities....like education, travel, spirtual endeavors, work just to name a few....that affair recovery may not since I would still be responsible for meeting the needs of someone else. Divorce allows me to meet my own needs without that responsibility. I spend an incredible amount of my time....assessing and providing for my husband....what if I didn't have to? What could I potentially do with all that time? I think I could use it for personal growth and would.

To extrapolate this:

that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger...

To mean this:

so that which almost but just short of killing you will make you strongest....ie all agree an affair is more painful than straight up divorce...ergo, more growth opportunity.

completely ignores the fact that greater risk doesn't always equate to greater gain....sometimes, greater risk simply increases the likelihood that a higher percentage of folks will be "killed".

[ May 27, 2004, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

????? separated at birth perhaps?????????

heheheheh....that must be it!!!

pep..What is a healthy recovery? You mean marital recovery or personal recovery?

sufdb...either or both, but the emphasis is on pesonal.

Since most of the discussion favoring divorce seemed to be about pain avoidance,

Wrong...

Some is about the pain...
Some is about the loss of self...

some is about being humiliated and degraded... a completely different emotional weave than simply pain avoidance...

more later...

Pep

sufdb....I see mostly pain...humiliation and degradation are self-inflicted injuries (in that you choose how to respond to such situations), and suggests a large need for more self-actualization, which of course is one of the growth opportunities. Jesus was degraded/humiliated but I have no sense that He felt that way, or saw it as defining Him. You cannot define anyone, we define ourselves, if we let others define us, we need to grow.

I anticipated someone using the fire symbology as an injury, so almost didn't use it, just my luck you worked in a burn unit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> But you got the point, so why the gratuitious messing with me? Cleansing fire, purifying fire, forgeing fire....NOT destructive fire...

I just posted some more stuff that may address your other issues...we'll see.

pep...Are you saying that divorce is not a rejection?

sufdb...no, I think I made it clear rejection for another person (if we define affairs as about that, even if doesn't lead to it) seems to be a rejection of more signiificance (the poll seems to validate that as well) than simply being rejected outright (no op), and people react very differently.....personally I see no difference, but apparently many others see a huge difference....befuddles me, but there it is...and a subject for another day.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />sufdb wrote:
....I see mostly pain...humiliation and degradation are self-inflicted injuries (in that you choose how to respond to such situations), and suggests a large need for more self-actualization, which of course is one of the growth opportunities. Jesus was degraded/humiliated but I have no sense that He felt that way, or saw it as defining Him. You cannot define anyone, we define ourselves, if we let others define us, we need to grow.<hr /></blockquote>So what I'm reading from you is that learning and growing is to become robots and not FEEL? Not feel pain, not feel anything.

So, then a question regarding our power over ourselves to NOT feel any emotions. If one was "sad and lonely" in a marriage, wouldn't you then say that it was their choice to feel sad and lonely?

Jo

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by star*fish:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> but there is something about rejection for another person that really grips people and leads to some serious soul searching like nothing else can, as well as some real interesting reactions.....do you (and pep) agree with that analysis? <hr /></blockquote>okay....here is the part of this statement I CAN agree with. Yes, there is a certain element of rejection (of any kind) but especially rejection over another person that can lead to real soul searching. But the opportunity for soul searching can be prompted by so MANY MANY things that are capable of producing results that to see an affair as a desirable because of that seems really short sighted. The divorce, would free me completely to pursue those sorts of opportunities....like education, travel, spirtual endeavors, work just to name a few....that affair recovery may not since I would still be responsible for meeting the needs of someone else. Divorce allows me to meet my own needs without that responsibility. I spend an incredible amount of my time....assessing and providing for my husband....what if I didn't have to? What could I potentially do with all that time? I think I could use it for personal growth and would.

To extrapolate this:

that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger...

To mean this:

so that which almost but just short of killing you will make you strongest....ie all agree an affair is more painful than straight up divorce...ergo, more growth opportunity.

completely ignores the fact that greater risk doesn't always equate to greater gain....sometimes, greater risk simply increases the likelihood that a higher percentage of folks will be "killed". <hr /></blockquote>star, you are kinda mixing up stuff here, and confusing the issue, I am the poll God (on this one) so it has to be confined as I sat. Yes, the moment we move on to specific situations, we have an endless variety of answers. In your case, seems you feel all your growth was accomplished, and for you the affair was just a pain in the butt, and restrictive....you really sound like you should have divorced. Are you leading a primarily sacrificial life now, and have you done the person self work to be sure you are not (assuming you are gonna demur).

Yep risk is an issue, greater risk despite greater rewards also gaurantees great cost, sometimes too much for sure...but the poll was the general case, and reflects the risk willingness of the respondents. In the case of affairs, the outcome of stds is a strong reason to give up the growth opportunities....of course many affairs have no stds, but interestingly that was only mentioned by one person as a consideration in assessing the answer....most were influenced by a desire to reduce emotional pain.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Resilient:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />sufdb wrote:
....I see mostly pain...humiliation and degradation are self-inflicted injuries (in that you choose how to respond to such situations), and suggests a large need for more self-actualization, which of course is one of the growth opportunities. Jesus was degraded/humiliated but I have no sense that He felt that way, or saw it as defining Him. You cannot define anyone, we define ourselves, if we let others define us, we need to grow.<hr /></blockquote>So what I'm reading from you is that learning and growing is to become robots and not FEEL? Not feel pain, not feel anything.

So, then a question regarding our power over ourselves to NOT feel any emotions. If one was "sad and lonely" in a marriage, wouldn't you then say that it was their choice to feel sad and lonely?

Jo <hr /></blockquote>yes, to some extent jo, continuing to feel sad and/or lonely would be a choice...if you do not act to change circumstances.

No, one cannot choose their emotions, did I say that? But one can choose how to react to them, and if you "feel" humiliated of degraded that is about you, and you can take healthy actions....but no one "did" this too you....pain on the otherhand is just pain, labeling it is irrelevant, but avoidance is a natural reaction and seems to be the reason for the poll outcome. Accepting pain is also a choice, for perceived benefits (such as medical procedures)...my premise was that the pain of an affair experience may be worth the cost because of growth opportunities...this was related to the stated desire for people to remain married....if an affair is a greater growth opportunity than it suggests a greater chance at healthy recovery, so it perplexed me why people regularly say they would rather be served divorce papers as the marital crisis....a scenario that may have a smaller likelihood of good outcome, maritally or personally.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> In your case, seems you feel all your growth was accomplished, and for you the affair was just a pain in the butt, and restrictive....you really sound like you should have divorced. Are you leading a primarily sacrificial life now, and have you done the person self work to be sure you are not (assuming you are gonna demur).
<hr /></blockquote>Actually, divorce might VERY well have been a better option for me...but I didn't get the luxury of making that decision at a time when it would not impact 3 other human beings...my children. So the potential benefit for me was not worth the loss of stability for them since I am the type of person who is capable of overcoming the pain of the affair.

I am not leading a sacrificial life at all...quite the opposite. Since I had no intention of remaining in my marriage ONLY for my children....I have been diligent in helping to create a new and better marriage...and one of the requirements was that my H made an equal commitment. I think he has. I would have respected him more if had had done it without becoming involved in affairs....but I don't punish him for it.

My growth was definitely not a fait accompli by the time of the affair...if I had to stop growing at any point in my life, I might as well stop living....sounds stagnant and boring. I just do not agree that the affair offered me the better opportunity to growth. Out of the two....divorce did that. My first husband did me an enormous favor...I truly believe that. He wasn't ready...and he knew it. He saw no reason to continue down a path that would expose me to more pain and limit his options as well. My second husband did me no favors. The fact that I have recovered my marriage nicely doesn't change that.

Is this not just one huge exercise of futility?

someone mentions the risk of an STD...early on in this post...
YOU nip that one in the bud...not wanting such "details" to be part of the decision making process...

then turn around and state...

In the case of affairs, the outcome of stds is a strong reason to give up the growth opportunities....of course many affairs have no stds, but interestingly that was only mentioned by one person as a consideration in assessing the answer....most were influenced by a desire to reduce emotional pain.

that's because you told people not to use the STD one .....

So now do you want all the people to vote again using the std factor as a "detail"...

You deny universal FACTS about affairs...

the most important being that the dishonesty needed to carry out an affair is a consistant FACT in every affair....
as is the disrespect...
and it involves dishonesty perpertrated on the BS....

you can't spin it any other way...

and the fact that dishonesty/disrespect may exist in a marriage in many other forms.... doesn't water down the fact of its existence in an affair...
nor does it justify it
nor does it rationalize it...

a divorce... if nothing else... is the HONEST act that someone no longer cares to be with you...

the pain, the potential for growth, are all irrelevent....

there are no garuntees in life that every experience is one for growth or not..
and no one can place value on that growth for anyone else but themselves...

If I were to survive cancer and find it in my life to be a great learning experience...I sure as heck wouldn't encourage anyone else to get cancer or have cancer...because I wouldn't want them to miss out on MY experiences...
cause there is no way for them to be garunteed to have the same learning experience that I did...

ark

2morrow's number is expected 2 be 0572429085723, which is more than 15 times the number on the same date last year, and 490875 higher than the average for this season.

-ol' 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2long:
 2morrow's number is expected 2 be 0572429085723, which is more than 15 times the number on the same date last year, and 490875 higher than the average for this season.

-ol' 2long <hr /></blockquote>ok, I will bite.... what the heck is this...but don't tell outright, give clues

Mars temperature...?

It's an admittedly sarcastic commentary on the value of polls like this one.

"Your love life is governed by the distant planet Fringus, which is only 3 inches in diameter" - You Were Born on a Rotten Day: An Unofficial Horoscope

-ol' 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 Mars temperature...? <hr /></blockquote>lol ... that was so funny!

Do you know, is it also foggy up there?

damm..

I wanted to answer before pep...

I was SURE it was the number of brain cells I wasted today....

or the number of typos by me....

infact that's my final answer....

ARK

[ May 27, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]

"Do you know, is it also foggy up there?"

It can be where I work, but not 2day.

-ol' 2long

It seems that most here would have rather been served divorce papers then to have discovered an affair.

I guess what I don't get is . . . if divorce is what you would have wished . . . why not just do it? Get divorced. Move on.

Dealing with an affair is hard. Fighting for a marriage is certainly harder then just walking away.

If a marriage is worth fighting for, even after being damaged by an affair, why would the marriage have so little value that you could prefer it to have been ended by your spouse? And if that is the case, why do so many here try to keep the marriage alive?

I guess I just don't get it.

I would rather have been served papers too, I guess. At least it is over in a sanitized fashion.

Well..

wouldn't it be that the divorce papers don't automatically equal the end of a marriage...

and the field of marital repair though difficult and painful...
is no where equal to the field of marital repair where there is infidelity....

I don't think people are saying they would rather be divorced...
I think people are saying they would rather deal with horrible icky issues...without the issue of infidelity being in the mix as well...

the outcome is not determined by the choice....

ark
who could be wrong...because I barely understand the poll question in the first place.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ark^^:
 Well..

wouldn't it be that the divorce papers don't automatically equal the end of a marriage...<hr /></blockquote>O.K.,

You're saying that folks would have rather gotten divorce papers if their spouces didn't really mean it? If they had the papers drafted . . . well . . . in error perhaps?

I guess what I thought was meant by the poll was,

1)Have your spouse have an affair with the possibility of some salvage of the marriage or 2) have your spouse just divorce you. Period.

The questions I raised in my previous post address the situation as I understood the poll. If it is designed the way you say Ark . . . where your spouse could be talked out of it . . . I fully understand folk's responses.

I guess, I too, don't have a good grasp about what was really asked.

[ May 27, 2004, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]

You're saying that folks would have rather gotten divorce papers if their spouces didn't really mean it? If they had the papers drafted . . . well . . . in error perhaps?

no that's not what I am saying...
not that spouses didn't mean it...

what I thought it meant was that people get a huge painful wakeup call that the marriage is way way way off the road in the ditch..

choose..
divorce papers
affair....

from what I gather the poll author believes that one offers a greater opportunity for personal growth insight and learning...not to mention a lots of nausea and weight loss... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

and the poll author believes that affairs are nothing more than an opportunity for a spouse to move up the ladder of self actualization....

lots of people get served a piece of paper and then go to marriage counseling...
and that the issues involved with infidelity are most difficult....

I don't think you talk anyone of anything...I think you two people decide to rebuild...

ark...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Written by Arkie regarding an Affair choice:
from what I gather the poll author believes that one offers a greater opportunity for personal growth insight and learning...not to mention a lots of nausea and weight loss...<hr /></blockquote>One tends to think the poll author's then-wife may have heard this exact phrase at some point. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ May 27, 2004, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Originally posted by 2long:
"2morrow's number is expected 2 be 0572429085723, which is more than 15 times the number on the same date last year, and 490875 higher than the average for this season."

Oh... oh oh....

The number of calories consumed by MBers while reading/posting on this board?????

Did I get it right??

You know, most WS eventually emerge from the fog. But this post provides convincing evidence that some simply choose to become one with the fog...

I believe I have an example of a couple where divorce papers would have served as a better learning opportunity than an affair did.

That well know couple SNL and Thinker. Now it's obvious that their marriage was in trouble well before an A came into the picture. Neither was very happy, SNL probably more so, but neither seriously brought up divorce or actually served the other with divorce papers.

Then the A happened and the process of actual legal separation/divorce began to be a real issue instead of an empty threat.

Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day.

But with the A in the picture it was all too easy to blame the demise of the marriage on that rather than on the conditions that made it happen. Thinker was handed a ready made scapegoat on which to pile the blame and thus was robbed of the opportunity to actually examine her role in the state of her marriage. The A did nothing at advance Thinker's knowledge about marriage and relationships and only left her with the idea that men leave when they find someone else to be with.

So actually, I think being served with papers absent an A would have been a much better learning opportunity for Thinker and would have made her have to look at her own faults and the problems in the marriage instead of focusing on the smoke and mirrors of the A.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by Not-so-Silent-Observer:

" Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day."

OMG... are you saying that an A is the result of the WS NOT problem-solving with integrity ... therefore further ~complicating~ a marriage already in trouble?????

Therefore the WS ~missed~ a learning opportunity... that being, problem solving without inflicting unnecessary pain onto two already hurting people?

WHAT a concept!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I vote for a healthy, loving, respectful, honest marriage...oh, not an option in this poll of 2 life altering, generally negative, choices for the BS.

Excuse me, 2 "learning experiences".

We've debated ad nauseum exactly what, if anything, a BS stands to learn or grow from an affair. (where IS that vomit greamlin???) If this is such an enormous opportunity for growth and learning (and assuming that BS's aren't the ONLY ones expected to learn) what growth and learning potential does it afford WS's? And do the POSITIVE things they learn about themselves outweigh the negative?

For instance....is finding out that you really truly love your wife/husband worth the humiliation, dishonesty and pain you cause them to get there or the risk that you will destroy your family? Even if it's worth it to you....is it realistic to expect it to be worth it to THEM? What entitles anyone to obtain knowledge through the misery of others simply for the SAKE of knowledge? Isn't knowledge obtained through the necessity of hurting others the most selfish way of learning when so many other avenues of self actualization are available?

Hi Sufbd,

I think you answered your question.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />by sufbd: I agree (again) how one experiences a divorce is situational...but that isn't what the poll is about, it is a rational question, but it is being answered emotionally. <hr /></blockquote>It's a rational question, in that it's proper English and is easily understandable by the reader, but what you are missing is that most people cannot be rational about such severely traumatic experiences. Period.

Also, I’m surprised by now that you haven’t figured out that you, sir, are an odd duck <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Your personality type compromises roughly 1% of the population. You are extremely logical, you must know this, but you still seem surprised that other people give such weight to their feelings. You must have run into this all your life.

You try to logically rationalize that the tremendous pain people have experienced may have in fact made them better, wiser human beings. What I think you don’t realize is that most people don’t consider themselves broken, or in particular need of growth. Blissfully ignorant? I have to admit that I’ve said more than a few times, ‘gosh, wouldn’t be nice to go through life so unaware?’ Looks good from where I’m standing, sometimes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> The NT personality makes constant demands on himself, taxing himself with constant improvement, holding a sort of mental stopwatch over himself, recording his gains and losses. He must be wholly competent in his work and in his play, and he never gives himself respite from this self-imposed level of excellence. This constant striving for peak efficiency, explains many things about NT behavior: why they put their trust in the precision of logic, for example, or why they are so hard on themselves when they make errors <hr /></blockquote>Most people are not like this. Something like 3% of the population has this persistent need to improve themselves. I am like this, and I can almost go with you on your theory, but not quite. I do see how I’ve changed and grown as a result of my marriage difficulties. And I didn’t experience a full-on A, public embarrassment, or STD, so the trauma I experienced was much less than those here. But I’d be hard pressed to say I’d go through this all again JUST for the personal growth I experienced, as I think I would have eventually gotten to this point anyway.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Thus the problem is not that Conceptualists are cold and inhuman, but that they are by nature both abstract and highly focused, and have to be reminded to get their nose out of their books, their technical journals and their computer files-to get out of their heads-and join the family circle.

NTs tend to focus on the future, regarding the past as something dead and gone. The past is useful only as a means of giving direction to the future and for deciphering the lessons of history, taking heed to the warning that "He who remains ignorant of history is doomed to repeat it." The NT is never willing to repeat an error. <hr /></blockquote>I see where you are going with this. You’ve just got to realize that others won’t share your point of view when it comes to logically looking at feelings. In fact, aren’t Feelings and Logic 180 degree opposites? I’m just surprised that you are surprised by the results you are getting. Take care - Dru

My daughters and I take ballroom dance lessons.
Some instructors encourage the students to switch dance partners every few minutes during the lesson.

Here's why:

Inevitably beginning dancers will make mistakes. When they do, they usually assume it's their partner that has made the mistake - not themselves. (Some even argue during class - dance rage LOL). But if you practice dancing the same steps with several different partners, and you notice that ALL the partners you practiced with made the exact same mistake... then you (should eventually) realize that it is YOU that is out of step and needs to make a necessary adjustment (a humbling 'learning/growth' experience)...

[ May 27, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Not-so-Silent-Observer:
 I believe I have an example of a couple where divorce papers would have served as a better learning opportunity than an affair did.

That well know couple SNL and Thinker. Now it's obvious that their marriage was in trouble well before an A came into the picture. Neither was very happy, SNL probably more so, but neither seriously brought up divorce or actually served the other with divorce papers.

Then the A happened and the process of actual legal separation/divorce began to be a real issue instead of an empty threat.

Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day.

But with the A in the picture it was all too easy to blame the demise of the marriage on that rather than on the conditions that made it happen. Thinker was handed a ready made scapegoat on which to pile the blame and thus was robbed of the opportunity to actually examine her role in the state of her marriage. The A did nothing at advance Thinker's knowledge about marriage and relationships and only left her with the idea that men leave when they find someone else to be with.

So actually, I think being served with papers absent an A would have been a much better learning opportunity for Thinker and would have made her have to look at her own faults and the problems in the marriage instead of focusing on the smoke and mirrors of the A.

Just a thought. <hr /></blockquote>What if the A was never over? The issues in the M may have existed to some degree but the exaggerated tool of the A never died, then what? How justified is the divorce? In whose eyes is it justified?

Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?

If you do, think again. This jabber of his isn't adding up. Not even way out here on the west coast.

Sorry S, I know you have good points about you but you are on a course that isn't healthy and I believe you know it. Please go get some help, real help. Don't rely on those who promote A's for support and advice. Don't try to make the bad actions appear to be good or acceptable.

What betrayed you? Your own anger. For those that know you, your anger gives you away every time. It shows you are covering up something that refuses to be hidden. The A never did end did it? How can you tell others to stop the A when your actions c/b promoting it?

Your words belie the truth, S. I know you don't always like my posts but they are said because sugar coating or stroking your ego won't help you get better.

Please find that nice man, I spoke to before. The one that had some sense. I know he was even better than that prior to his coming to MB. I know he had the sense to take care of his family. I know he had a hard time expressing deep feelings and covered it over by generalizations of philosphy.

Look in the mirror S, the good man is still there, deep down inside. I think he wants to come out.

I heard he has a nice smile and likes lemon meringue pie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Don't let a bitter disposition ruin what you have left. Also if you are having an A, you know where that will head. Regardless of the mental state of the OP, a WS is in no position to help an OP who has also lost it.

Remember PBR? She is still out there being a hazard to the community. Her hands reach far, even to other states. The only one that can stop her is herself. Until she realizes she needs help and is a danger to herself and others, she will continue to reek havoc.

I would hate to see anything like that happen to you and your family.

take care,
L.

ps: smile..... your face won't crack. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
That's what I had to tell my H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ May 28, 2004, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

:barf:

o..what if the A was never over? The issues in the M may have existed to some degree but the exaggerated tool of the A never died, then what? How justified is the divorce? In whose eyes is it justified?

sufdb...what does this have to do with anything, much less the point of this poll/thread? Which is about growth from life experiences. I suppose we could speculate endlessly about everything and everybody....*****EDIT*********** Maybe MB is really nothing more than a money tree (all those materials for sale doncha know...I mean only a tiny fraction of the visitors here seem to go to better marriages, so maybe the whole thing is a big con job). *********EDIT*******..geez orchid where does it end? You have no choice but to accept what people right as the facts as they seem em....and if they seem inconsistent in their own words, or obviously aggressive, emotional, etc. etc. they observe accordinly. Further some seem obsessed over the rightness or wrongness of affairs, justification, blah blah blah....this is so dumb, affairs just happen, they happen everywhere to everyone....and almost no one sets out to have one (except for the actual screwed up people, few who seem to post here)...who cares about right/wrong/justification has nothing to do with anything....what counts is what you do afterwards...do you learn? Do you stop a dysfunctional marriage ( fixing or ending it), do you affair proof yourself (bs and ws...cause roles may reverse, as is common here...everyone is a ws, because we are all humans, and humans are a promiscuous, as well as social species).

o....Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?

sufdb...Hmm... I suppose, and I guess their kids are just complete idiots who cannot think for themselves...but you, who have no idea at all about their lives are somehow more knowledgeable. But let me get this straight...so no one can "make" another have an affair (that is the bs mantra right?)...but now you propose one can "make another act aggressively, lovebust continuously (even long after the marriage ended), aleinate their adult children, and continue to trash her exh at every opportunity to whoever will listen to the tale of woe (as opposed to making amends with him, and working together for both their benefits.... So how does that work...he makes her do this? Hmm...then maybe she made him have an affair...can't have it both ways....either we are all responsible for out behavior, or we are not....which is it?

o...If you do, think again. This jabber of his isn't adding up. Not even way out here on the west coast.

sufdb...ya know, it is attitudes like this which validate victimhood, and keep people stuck....rearrangeing the facts provided for over a long period of time into whatever concoction fits your agenda. I assume you are talking about thinker/snl, they clearly (since both posted) had serious compatibility problems, as well as no disagreement over the facts (been living seperated in the same home for years...different bedrooms, essentially no sex (or interest by either party), seperate vacations, and a frequently stated desire for divorce by thinker, as well as a huge amount of lovebusting, years of counselling had made no difference, they both were well aware the marriage was nothing more than a childrearing situation, they shared nothing with each other, and thinker by her own admission was emotionally connected to her father, and never her H (something snl had complained about to no avail their entire marriage)....so now you suggest he is what...some kind of devious manipulaor...you need help with your analysis skills....why not just accept the facts for what they are....regardless of either persons "character" they cannot be healthy together, just brings out the "worse" in both of them I guess. And why do you think the exw is a psychopath anyways?

o...Sorry S, I know you have good points about you but you are on a course that isn't healthy and I believe you know it. Please go get some help, real help. Don't rely on those who promote A's for support and advice. Don't try to make the bad actions appear to be good or acceptable.

sufdb...what? If you refer to a question on another thread about my well-being....I am fine, I understand what happened in my life, and why....going all the way back to my naivete about marriage and relationships, which is where my trainwreck started. Im my case, I broke up twice (for cause) with the woman I married, I didn't follow my own instincts which told me that though we were both good people, we did not do well together...but I am a rescuer, and I had become physical with her (we were both first), and she promised to change, and I believed her....and the rest was predictable. What I have tried to do was craft a healthy exspouse relationship, but even that doesn't work... clearly they cannot and should not have been married...and they both are equally responsible for that fact.

o...What betrayed you? Your own anger. For those that know you, your anger gives you away every time. It shows you are covering up something that refuses to be hidden. The A never did end did it? How can you tell others to stop the A when your actions c/b promoting it?

sufdb...anger? Hardly, where? The only anger I have is over the continuing and unceasing attacks on everthing that makes me...me, by my exw, including a huge amount of lies...but even this is anger over the unfairness of character assasination.....however, both our lives are much much more peaceful, now that we do not live together********EDITED********I have stated many times I think affairs are really poor choices, and that is how you actually affair proof yourself, by figuring out it is a losing proposition. I figured that much out before even discovery (and it was a very short-lived affair, couple months after friendship boundaries crossed, followed by the usual withdrawal issues). The affair ended mutually (she figured out the same thing). The primary consequence (of the affair) being I was no longer going to live a sacrificial marriage, or tolerate the emotional neglect/abuse, and I was going to start considering myself, and what was healthy for me. This change in focus on my needs infuriated my wife, who after a very very brief (and totally ineffective) plan a, returned to her previous behavior, likewise I could see no reason to continue the marriage, all we did is fight, one particularly destructive component was her relentless efforts to convince me our marital difficulties were all about the affair, and my various character defects...she made no effective effort to psychoanalyze herself, or effect any permanent changes in her behavior, and things rapidly went back to pre-affair interactions...I don't blame her for anything, she is who she is, I am who I am, and we do not do well together....but I am not angry about that....the past done, over, fini....it serves no purpose but to learn from, and move on...I have offered her a good exspouse relationship, she has rejected that offer, and choose rather to embitter herself and blame me. That always worked in the past, I hated to see her unhappy, and I would scurry about trying to fix whatever...we never talked or addressed my needs...any mention of such resulted in an immediate dismissal of them, a litany of her complaints/needs, or a fight if I didn't back down...that hasn't changed a bit.

o...Your words belie the truth, S. I know you don't always like my posts but they are said because sugar coating or stroking your ego won't help you get better.

sufdb...Like? Not really the relevant word. Your comments are innacurate, your analysis self-serving re your own agenda (that is a risk we all take when we get into others lives, as I have been accused too), you are just plain wrong, and that helps keep people stuck. I do beleive your intentions are good though.

o...Please find that nice man, I spoke to before. The one that had some sense. I know he was even better than that prior to his coming to MB. I know he had the sense to take care of his family. I know he had a hard time expressing deep feelings and covered it over by generalizations of philosphy.

sufdb...that nice man is alive and well, better now that he doesn't have to listen to all his defects, and how awful he is day in and day out. He treated his wife well, was (and is) a good dad, a good and loyal spouse, and friend (even now to his exw who doesn't deserve it judging by how harshly she treats him, and messes with him regularly).

o...Don't let a bitter disposition ruin what you have left. Also if you are having an A, you know where that will head.

sufdb...I am incapable of bitterness, it is a useless emotion, and I am so glad God made me that way....As for your insulting (to not only intelligence, but my veracity) suggestion (thinly disguised by if)...of having learned nothing, and would choose an affair, why would I do such a stupid thing? No orchid, not only am I single, but I will never involve myself with a married woman again. ***********EDITED**********

o...Remember PBR? She is still out there being a hazard to the community. Her hands reach far, even to other states. The only one that can stop her is herself. Until she realizes she needs help and is a danger to herself and others, she will continue to reek havoc.

I would hate to see anything like that happen to you and your family.

sufdb...me too, but fortunately I don't know any psychopaths...I feel for ya.

o...ps: smile..... your face won't crack. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
That's what I had to tell my H.

sufdb...I do, but I suspect I would more if my exw would stop trashing me. Still, that is her issue, all I can do is endure it....but hey, it is making me stronger...It has become much harder to push my buttons, which has helped in relationship conflicts with my kids...and that is a good thing....growth is where you look for it....I really wish she would do the same...she has so many blessings, and opportunities...but just won't look at the half full part it seems.

[ May 29, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]

SNL/LA/'ufdb:

I think I've figger'd it out. You ARE a logical person. But that's your problem, not your salvation.

Don't get me wrong. This has bothered me for days because I always thought that *I* was a very logical person. Heck, I've got 2 graduate degrees and I'm doing what I always wanted 2 do professionally. I'm a scientist. We're logical as hell.

But logic failed me miserably in my M. Not that it wasn't/isn't useful. It's just not all that useful in the face of irrational drives that lead one 2 have an A or withdraw from one's spouse such that they choose 2 have an A.

I was devastated by my W's A precisely because my love for her has never been "logical." The "loss" of her cut my feelings right off at their knees. No amount of logic would fix that. I have 2 understand my feelings, and being a logical thinker, that required that I change gears completely 2 another transmission. And it's been a weird and fabulous journey.

You can be as logical as you want, post as many polls as you want. But if you never had the emotional connection with your xW that flew in the face of your logic, you'd never have had the 2ls 2 prevent your A, or even care enough about what you were doing 2 your xW 2 stop.

It should be possible 2 still care about an xSpouses well-being even after a DV that came as a result of infidelity.

The MB plans are methods, they're not principles. They're empirically-derived means 2 help us deal with and corral our feelings. No amount of logic will help us here - only help us organize the past in our minds (and we all have different minds and different memories of the past).

Take a look in2 the strange, sometimes unfathomable realm of feelings. Leave the logic for figuring out why the Buick won't start in the morning.

-ol' 2long

2Long, that is an excellent commentary. I too have had the tendecy to be logical. To me everything has to make sense. Life has to make sense. I thought if you use common sense and do not do anything irrational, think about each step you take, respect those around you, care for your family, nothing regretable could happen. I always thought trouble came to those who looked for it. I too am a scientist with two advanced degrees. But that has not helped me to understand why spouses make choices that hurt everyone. Maybe in terms of the overall question of this topic, being serve divorce papers is painful but there is a chance of talking through it. There is a possibility of reexamination before the gradual process that lawyers and the courts take to decide. But to be hit by an affair, when it has already happened and there is little that can be done but to suffer the consequences. That is probably the worse of two evils.

Originally posted by 2long:

I always thought that *I* was a very logical person. Heck, I've got 2 graduate degrees and I'm doing what I always wanted 2 do professionally. I'm a scientist. We're logical as hell.

But logic failed me miserably in my M. Not that it wasn't/isn't useful. It's just not all that useful in the face of irrational drives that lead one 2 have an A or withdraw from one's spouse such that they choose 2 have an A.

I was devastated by my W's A precisely because my love for her has never been "logical." The "loss" of her cut my feelings right off at their knees. No amount of logic would fix that. I have 2 understand my feelings, and being a logical thinker, that required that I change gears completely 2 another transmission. And it's been a weird and fabulous journey.

DING DING DING

That's the correct answer my dear friend!

Ice cream? My treat!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

How 'bout french vanilla on the side of some Beebop-a-Reebop-a-Rubarb Pie!?

-ol' 2long

Can I have partial credit??

Sufbd, I've always been drawn to the preciseness and clarity of your writing. You are very gifted

In MTBI speak, any natural preference taken to an extreme, becomes a weakness. I did notice this about myself and I do work on it. Being introverted, I'd guess this hasn’t been as high priority for you, nor would it ever need to be. You gotta live with you, and if you're happy to hell with everyone else.

I see it here all the time, people asking WHY, WHY, WHY did he do this, explain it to me!!! There is never a satisfactory answer for the BS. The can sometimes lay out the sequence of events, but they never understand the knife in the back, the udder betrayal, the callousness in the heart of the WS. No one ever gets a comforting answer to that.

You seem to be looking for the same kind of logical explanations as the BS does, it's almost a quest??? Good luck - Dru

Donald A. Norman is a pioneer in the narrow field of cognitive science. His 1988 book "The Psychology of Everday Things" is what brought him to international fame. His newest work revolves around creating well performing, easy to use even emotive machines. I'd like to quote him here:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "The cognitive sciences grew up studying cognition--rational, logical thought," he notes. Norman himself participated in the birth of the field, joining a program in mathematical psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and later helping to launch the human information–processing department (now cognitive science) at the University of California at San Diego. "Emotion was traditionally ignored as some leftover from our animal heritage," he says. "It turns out that's not true.

"We now know, for example, that people who have suffered damage to the prefrontal lobes so that they can no longer show emotions are very intelligent and sensible, but they cannot make decisions." He cites scientific information that concludes that "emotion, or 'affect,' is an information processing system, similar to but distinct from cognition. With cognition we understand and interpret the world--which takes time," he says. "Emotion works much more quickly, and its role is to make judgments--this is good, that is bad, this is safe."

The two systems are intertwined at a biological level, Norman points out. "The affective system pumps neurotransmitters into the brain, changing how the brain works. You actually think differently when you are anxious than when you are happy. Anxiety causes you to focus in on problems; if something doesn't work, you try it again, harder. But when you're happy, you tend to be more creative and interruptible."

<hr /></blockquote>My point suf....is that by refusing to allow us to use emotion at all (only logical or cognitive thinking) when deciding between divorce or affair...you've in a sense, taken away a huge part of our abiltiy to make a decision at all...it can't be done. It's not healthy...not for us and not for you.

[ May 28, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orchid:
 [QUOTE]

Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?

<hr /></blockquote>Who used the word psychopath? Certainly not I and nor do I think that. I used the word "bitter" and yes I think repeatedly saying that your ex will burn in Hell when he dies or that he's Satanic or constantly talking about the "whore" who he had an A two years post divorce with qualifies as "bitter" not psychopathic, the two are not synonymous.

I also don't know where I said she deserved any bad treatment at all, I'm not at all sure how you inferred anything like that from what I wrote.

I'm not at all duped by S, I can read their old exchanges for myself and draw my own conclusions from what is posted in them. To me, it would seem that having divorce papers presented(not necessarily going through with it) would have been a better wake up call to the exw and maybe would have allowed for a real reconcilliation and healing much more than S having an A and giving fuel to a fire that was always simmering just below the surface in both people.

Is this post an example of the slow tortuous death WAT was talking about....

cause I'm changing my answer real soon..even if I can eat chocolate the whole way...

ARK

Where is Jeffers when I need him ?. -rh-

Perhaps I'm feeling bitter today, but here are my thoughts.

So between a divorce or an affair, I'd actually pick my husband opening his mouth and discussing the his problem with me rather than talking in code, withdrawing his thoughts and feelings, and seeking marital advice from less than upstanding women co-workers.

Why isn't that one of the choices? Wouldn't we all be a little better off if our spouses would have communicated their feelings and thoughts with us more rather than jumping into their own screwed up version of "problem solving"?

Neither divorce or an affair is the correct answer. And we as a society need to begin enforcing that or we will continue to spiral down the drain of humanity. What are we doing to one another as human beings?

firefly

Originally posted by star*fish:
Donald A. Norman is a pioneer in the narrow field of cognitive science. His 1988 book "The Psychology of Everday Things" is what brought him to international fame. His newest work revolves around creating well performing, easy to use even emotive machines. I'd like to quote him here:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "The cognitive sciences grew up studying cognition--rational, logical thought," he notes. Norman himself participated in the birth of the field, joining a program in mathematical psychology at the University of Pennsylvania and later helping to launch the human information–processing department (now cognitive science) at the University of California at San Diego. "Emotion was traditionally ignored as some leftover from our animal heritage," he says. "It turns out that's not true.

"We now know, for example, that people who have suffered damage to the prefrontal lobes so that they can no longer show emotions are very intelligent and sensible, but they cannot make decisions." He cites scientific information that concludes that "emotion, or 'affect,' is an information processing system, similar to but distinct from cognition. With cognition we understand and interpret the world--which takes time," he says. "Emotion works much more quickly, and its role is to make judgments--this is good, that is bad, this is safe."

The two systems are intertwined at a biological level, Norman points out. "The affective system pumps neurotransmitters into the brain, changing how the brain works. You actually think differently when you are anxious than when you are happy. Anxiety causes you to focus in on problems; if something doesn't work, you try it again, harder. But when you're happy, you tend to be more creative and interruptible." /[quote]

thx star, the information you posted I concluded an opine about regularly, but it was not easy to arrive at. This is a process (for all of us) and because I don't poster or mask much (that is illogical) my struggles are easier to see, and explains why it is almost impossible to insult me, I have no emotional reaction to such things.....but what makes me crazy is unfairness (the predictable mapping of logic onto emotion...I supect long et al has the same problem). Unfortuneately unfairness is meaningless in emotional terms, so I must be careful about reacting strickly by logic when dealing with emotional issues, such as relationships....I had no one to teach me, I have had to figure this out myself (the good news is I am passing on this info to my kids), when I could observe my life was not working right, and logic was not fixing things...the affair was actually an emotional solution to my "problems" so to speak....I had spent years trying to convince my wife she should love me, and could not understand why she did not (I know now both the rational and emotional reasons why)....

on paper we should, but we have substantial emotional differences, when I realized that (about 10 years ago) I gave up, because I understood that cannot be fixed ( behavior can be modified, but inherentcy is well...inherent). It had nothing to do with her wrong me right, it just is, so no point in getting upset about it....rather take what the facts are, and arrive at a healthy resolution. Unbeknownst to me, in my arrogance of thinking I had logical control over my life and actions (and an affair was like...I dunno, so unthinkable as to not even be well.....thought about), instead I was wide open emotionally, and never had a clue.

The affair happened so fast, I was playing catchup all the way, trying to figure out what was happening (something important to logical people)...I knew it was wrong logically, discussed that fact endlessly with the ow, regularly we set freindship boundaries....seemed so um....logical at the time...in hindsite was so stupid. The ow was no sleazy secret tawdry thing, I have no interest in such, it was a friendship with a decent person....one which I tried to introduce to my exw. She was not interested, but had no complaint either...she just ignored me as she always did about my emotional stuff. That is not an excuse for you rabid dogs out there, just a statement of fact.

I am not emotional dysfunctional, I am just uncomfortable making emotional decsions, I have plenty of emotions, including years of marital despair (in part cause I made a logical decision to marry, and ignored my emotions which were very concerned). As the friendship became such I could not logically call it a friendship anymore, I was forced to deal with the internal conflict of my logic and emotions...and I did, I made a concious decisions to let my emotions dictate my actions, just as you all suggest..... I set specific boundaries, which I did not violate, but I wanted to see what the emotions I felt meant, and whether they were real....it was not passion, lust, pursuit, or such...the primary emotion was that I was actually likeable just for being me.....that all the things my exw disliked about me (and she said so regularly, so I was well-informed) this individual valued...that's it. The same things you see here, and many of you dislike, but a few...like.

It is about temperament folks, it always is. And even though I am the (un)fortuneate member of a very small temperament profile, that doesn't make me a bad person....just different, and therefore harder for me to find friends/mate to go deep with....Eventually logic caught up with emotions, and it was clear affairs are not a good way to build relationships, the ow knew this too, and it ended, permanently...each of us back to our lives. I frankly thought divorce was just routine, she had wanted it for years, and now she had the perfect weapon to forever blame me for her life.... that in fact is exactly what happened. But first I was suprised a bit, she did not want immediate divorce, which puzzled me, she supposedly wanted to work things out.... I didn't believe her, I have known for years we didn't love right (that is be a safe, healthy, nurturing place for both), just shared kids, and logistics....not that I thought she disliked me, just that she had no idea who I was, or any seeming interest in finding out....she is all about her emotional well-being, and protects herself aggressively. She pulled her weight, gave some emotionally to others (something which hurt me alot, cause that meant she could do it, so why not me?), and was quite responsible with anything dutiful, but what's the point? You don't need to be married for that, and I am sure we could be good exspouses in that regard. The thing is, who I am just irritates her, and she "feels" she must defend against that...and I "feel" rejected and devalued....I am who I am, I don't want to be anyone else, if that doesn't work than leave...I couldn't understand why she did not, but she said she would if she had enough money, my problem was relgious prohibition, so I didn't leave. I figured she would be reasonably happy to be rid of me, long as she was ok financially. It became clear fairly quickly that her idea of "recovery" was me groveling about, meeting her needs, and agreeing with her I am an awful person...and following all the rules.... her rules. Nowhere in this was the slightest interest in what I needed, or figuring out such things as why should we be married (logical people need to know this stuff, it is is essential to their well-being....emotional people could care less about the why's, judgeing by what I see here so often....they just "feel" like they want to be married, should be married).

But I had changed, I was determined to be seen, and I persisted in these efforts, which angered, and eventually infuriated my wife, who then(after instigateing a series of confrontational efforts to bend me to her will, one of which resulted in an unfortunate accident to her shoulder) filed for divorce....which was ok with me, we were in desperate need of boundaries, and that provided it. I asked her repeatedly, pleaded, to leave me alone, quit lovebusting, she wouldn't do it, she had to have control, and exercised that control through emotional coercion/manipulation...which not only led to bad outcomes, but absolutely convinced me my analysis of our fit, and unhealthiness to each other was correct. The affair was an absolutely inconsequential factor in the overall condition and reality of our marriage, nothing more than a very predictable occurence.... but becasue of who she is, and who I am, nothing else counts, and it is all about the affair.... There were no gaurantees, it would have taken a substantial change in my wifes behavior, for long long time, for me to reconsider my conclusions about our marital dynamics... but she wanted gaurantees and she wanted em now, and for the first time in her married life I told her no.....she reacted very badly to that...and still is.

I do not know how long she will continue to punish me, maybe forever, but it is infinitely better being punished as an ex than punished as a spouse, she never would have changed anything, she didn't have too, cause I was the "bad" one.... but at least now, natural consequences (which I had spent 30 years sheilding her from, which is me bad) have occured, and she has to react to that...

Anyways, I am not so interesting, but the role cognition and emotion play in conducting our lives is important and fascinateing. Be assured I have emotions, and act on them, I suspect I would have done moreso had I been in a safe marital enviroment (when I did express emotion, I was either neglected or trashed, not conducive to expressing such things...but definitely encourages one who is logical to find surcease in hyperlogic). Now I am free to be emotional more, and I am, my relationships with everyone kids, mother, other people has improved noticeably...with one glaring exception....I am absolutely forbidden to express emotions with my exw. I must reamain very neutral, or attentive to her, and not react to anything she says or does negatively. If I do not do so, I am threatened, and abused. That was unacceptable as a spouse, but can get by as ex'es. cause we can both hang up and/or go to our seperate homes, there is no real need or expectation to be good to each other.

This is a work in progress star and rest. My questions do not say emotions don't exist, or are not important, they are inquires, so I can see how this works in others...why does that annoy people? And why do folks continually assign meanings to me I have not specifically said? Is that some kind of emotional thing? IMO the most healthy way to live is with both cognition and emotion, and generally take no action until BOTH are in agreement....does that make sense? But I am guessing, from what I see, that relationships are governed much more by emotions, and that is a recipe for disaster. Yet the mantra is love is a decision, a very cognitive choice....but without first having it make sense....it is well....nonsensical. of little value, and in fact works poorly (unless one lucks out and has a safe partner, who is a good fit).

star...My point suf....is that by refusing to allow us to use emotion at all (only logical or cognitive thinking) when deciding between divorce or affair...you've in a sense, taken away a huge part of our abiltiy to make a decision at all...it can't be done. It's not healthy...not for us and not for you. [/qb]<hr /></blockquote>hmmm... I can't take anything away, I have no such power...but when you are conducting inquires, you must simplify all you can, otherwise you cannot be sure what the results mean....clearly the results of my poll, for those who took it, indicates a clear emotional basis for the decision (as well as a refusal to even try to be logical for discussion).....that surprises me cause I am logical....but I am not surprised cause I know emotions predominantly rule....but in this case, I was a bit surprised because I thought the liklihood an affair leads to a stronger marriage would be desireable (assuming that is true, but most seem to agree greater personal growth is better for marriages, so seems a reasonable...but probably too rational, conclusion).

[ May 28, 2004, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

ff...Why isn't that one of the choices? Wouldn't we all be a little better off if our spouses would have communicated their feelings and thoughts with us more rather than jumping into their own screwed up version of "problem solving"?

sufdb....the poll was NOT about a person choosing to have an affair themself, but about how to view life events as opportunities, and compared two related ones....divorce summons and affair.

People do what you lamented about ff, often, in spades.....and nothing happens....an affair is pretty much impossible to ignore, so stuff happens. A divorce summons, is an attention getter also, but not in the visceral way an affair is...there is something about rejection for another person that really gets ones attention focused.

ff...Neither divorce or an affair is the correct answer. And we as a society need to begin enforcing that or we will continue to spiral down the drain of humanity. What are we doing to one another as human beings?

sufdb...well, affairs are almost never a good idea...but divorce often is a good solution...but first one should do appropriate self-introspective work, cuase that is the real problem....many of us have a poor understanding of ourselves, and lurch through life with reactive and emotional behaviors which are predictable poor strategies for life.

long..I think I've figger'd it out. You ARE a logical person. But that's your problem, not your salvation.

sufdb...so I should switch to being an emotional person <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

long...But logic failed me miserably in my M. Not that it wasn't/isn't useful. It's just not all that useful in the face of irrational drives that lead one 2 have an A or withdraw from one's spouse such that they choose 2 have an A.

sufdb...so what does one do, just beat the crap out of a spouse who infuriates you? Or try to figure it out, including whether you can be safely married to them (or they you)?

long...I was devastated by my W's A precisely because my love for her has never been "logical." The "loss" of her cut my feelings right off at their knees. No amount of logic would fix that. I have 2 understand my feelings, and being a logical thinker, that required that I change gears completely 2 another transmission. And it's been a weird and fabulous journey.

sufdb...agreed, you have to use both, without discounting the other....in my case, I preferred to be divorced, I clearly make my wife anxious, and distressed.

long..You can be as logical as you want, post as many polls as you want. But if you never had the emotional connection with your xW that flew in the face of your logic, you'd never have had the 2ls 2 prevent your A, or even care enough about what you were doing 2 your xW 2 stop.

sufdb...exactly. all I hade was an ethical system, which I was logically depending on to insure good behavior, and it failed for emotional reasons. This would not have happened, had I known what I do now, but then again it is unlikely we would have been married by the time the affair occured, or married at all...(at least not until we had resolved our serious pre-marital emotional conflicts).

long...It should be possible 2 still care about an xSpouses well-being even after a DV that came as a result of infidelity.

sufdb...absolutely, couldn't agree more, and promote it all the time...but all my emotional bretheren tell me I live on the good ship lollipop, and that ain't gonna happen....they have convinced me they are right.

long...Take a look in2 the strange, sometimes unfathomable realm of feelings. Leave the logic for figuring out why the Buick won't start in the morning.

sufdb...I do, I have, and I like it.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ark^^:
 Is this post an example of the slow tortuous death WAT was talking about....

cause I'm changing my answer real soon..even if I can eat chocolate the whole way...

ARK <hr /></blockquote>could be, could be.... I know it is giving me a headache.

consider this ark though...what is life?

nothing more than a long death...the torturous part varies, but definitely kicks in periodically.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by stunned-dad-fast recovering:
 :barf: <hr /></blockquote>hope you are feeling better today.

nsso.. I believe I have an example of a couple where divorce papers would have served as a better learning opportunity than an affair did.

That well know couple SNL and Thinker. Now it's obvious that their marriage was in trouble well before an A came into the picture. Neither was very happy, SNL probably more so, but neither seriously brought up divorce or actually served the other with divorce papers.

sufdb....as I recall snl commented that thinker had been threatening divorce for years, and he finally believed her...and was just waiting for her to move on (he had religious issues, else would have agreed).

nsso.. Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day.

sufdb...my guess is she would have reacted almost the same. Thinker presents as an extremely reactive, rule oriented individual, and rarely if at all self-introspective. She also clearly manufactures "cause" even if none present, the affair was convienient, but not essential to a victim strategy. Had she instituted a pre-marital divorce, maybe gone reasonably well (affair or not on her part, would have made no difference to snl, who is motivated by future considerations, not past ones), but if snl had filed for divorce, thinker would have responded aggressively, she always does when presented with something she does not agree with.

nsso...But with the A in the picture it was all too easy to blame the demise of the marriage on that rather than on the conditions that made it happen. Thinker was handed a ready made scapegoat on which to pile the blame and thus was robbed of the opportunity to actually examine her role in the state of her marriage.

sufdb...Thinker has had ample opportunity to "examine"...heck snl said he had moved out of the bedroom 5 years previous, didn't seem to faze her at all, she never expressed any plan or concern about this lifestyle.

nsso...The A did nothing at advance Thinker's knowledge about marriage and relationships and only left her with the idea that men leave when they find someone else to be with.

sufdb...exactly, she totally squandered the best chance of her life to change...opting instead to reinforce her victim mentality. A 100% emotional reaction, and why we should NOT respond to crisis emotionally, but exercise concious choice...something harley and MB advocate constantly.

nsso...So actually, I think being served with papers absent an A would have been a much better learning opportunity for Thinker and would have made her have to look at her own faults and the problems in the marriage instead of focusing on the smoke and mirrors of the A.

sufdb...probably...but since no one sets out to deliberately have a marital crisis, you have to play the hand you are dealt...which is why I regularly advocate against emotional assesments of your life alone......and get trashed for it just as regularly... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I consider it a public service, and how I give back to the board...someone has to do this

nsso...psst. now watch nsso, I will be accused of being a knowitall better than everyone arrogant sob...

Originally posted by Not-so-Silent-Observer:

" Now, I feel that had SNL presented Thinker with divorce papers instead of waiting until critical mass was hit and had an A that perhaps Thinker would have been forced to confront her failings in the marriage and actual restoration or at the very least a split that left her able to contemplate what went wrong might have been the outcome instead of the raging bitterness that's pretty evident to this day."

[b]OMG... are you saying that an A is the result of the WS NOT problem-solving with integrity ... therefore further ~complicating~ a marriage already in trouble?????

Therefore the WS ~missed~ a learning opportunity... that being, problem solving without inflicting unnecessary pain onto two already hurting people?

sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome, and would have been had not the affair occured first... however, affairs are not "solutions" they are events, they happen for reasons not including decideing to have an affair cause my marriage isn't working...come on pep, you know this.....marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it...a big difference.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sufdb's response to ark when asking if this entire post is the "slow torturous death" WAT was referring to:

could be, could be.... I know it is giving me a headache.<hr /></blockquote>According to you sufdb, your headache must be self-inflicted pain, so why don't you simply will it away.

Wait, instead, maybe endure it as I'm sure it's also a great opportunity to learn and grow. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

[ May 28, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />sufdb wrote:

marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it ...a big difference.<hr /></blockquote>ummmm, are you sure you want to write that?

So, your affair was not your choice? It just happened to you?

WOW, so a person can choose not to feel stuff like emotions, again according to you, but they have no CHOICE when it comes to participating in an affair cause it just happens to them.

This is definitely a SNL-ism. No question.

[ May 28, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome,

Thank you. I agree.

Isn't that exactly what the poll results showed? Divorce is preferable to an affair?

Pep

[ May 28, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome,

Thank you. I agree.

Isn't that exactly what the poll results showed? Divorce is preferable to an affair?

Pep <hr /></blockquote>the poll was a differnet thing, about what would can do with something life hands you...

It seems folks are mixing up the experience of life with choices about life....an affair is not a choice, it can't be until you realize you are in one....I suppose one can "choose" the behavior that predisposes an affair, but that begs the question of how does one know to do this if they have no experience/training/whatever in recognizing one? You don't choose an affair, you choose to end it.

Would any one agree to an affair? NO

Usually only one person wants a divorce, but at least, the requester of the divorce does not lower than integrity or morals by having an affair.

But what is the overall benefit of this poll - obviously every BS would request a DV instead of an affair - regardless of any "growth experience".

....an affair is not a choice, it can't be until you realize you are in one....

~~~~~~~~~~~

Are you feeling alright?

I'm a little worried about you.

Pep

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Written by sufdb:

marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it...a big difference.<hr /></blockquote>Suf,

Since you are allegedly quoting or even paraphrasing the "Harley's", I am requesting you cite your resource for the above. Please tell us where the Harley's wrote the above or has said it.

res, a headache is actually physical condition, and can be treated with medication....but indeed you can grow from it....and I have grown alot, much of it due to particpation on MB.

sufdb wrote:

marital behavior 101, even the harley's say an affair is almost inevitable in a dysfunctional marriage...not cause one chooses it, but because circumstances enable it ...a big difference.[/QUOTE]

res..ummmm, are you sure you want to write that?

So, your affair was not your choice? It just happened to you?

sufdb...there is an element of chance in most things that happen to folks... but I am a believer in owning behavior, and I own mine...the affair would not occur if I did not act to further it....regardless of how innocent the initial contact was....but I suspect I would not have been as likely to be in that circumstance had I been in a safe/healthy/nurturint/joyous marriage....or had I known now what I know about affairs.

res...WOW, so a person can choose not to feel stuff like emotions, again according to you, but they have no CHOICE when it comes to participating in an affair cause it just happens to them.

sufdb...you must have missed the part (today) where I ""chose"" to listen to my emotions and therefore continued on with the affair, even though I knew I should not be doing that.
Anyways, you misquote me, I have never said you can choose not to have emotions, that is silly....what you choose is how to act on those emotions....and I advocate a lot more control in that regard than many seem able or willing to do...and I wonder about that sometimes...and that concept is often in my postings.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by betrayed by 2:
 Would any one agree to an affair? NO

Usually only one person wants a divorce, but at least, the requester of the divorce does not lower than integrity or morals by having an affair.

But what is the overall benefit of this poll - obviously every BS would request a DV instead of an affair - regardless of any "growth experience". <hr /></blockquote>but not everyone did.....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 ....an affair is not a choice, it can't be until you realize you are in one....

~~~~~~~~~~~

Are you feeling alright?

I'm a little worried about you.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>well, ok some people choose an affair (but I am not talking about them)...but you tell me, how does one differentiate between a new friendship and an EA if one has no idea what an EA is?.....eventually the friendship has sufficient recognizable characteristics to be labeled an affair...at that point, one continues on, or not....by choice, but it is allready happened...so you are really decideing to stop or not....not choosing to start an affair...right?

[ May 28, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

suf,

Thank you for the long response and consideration of my thoughts...as well as the risk you took to talk about the past. Not sure how good of an idea that was....but appreciate it just the same.

I have something I wanted to send you if you trust me enough to email me. starfish4729@hotmail.com

I said ... are you alright?

Do you feel OK?

Pep

Not-so-Silent-Observer: Who used the word psychopath? Certainly not I and nor do I think that. I used the word "bitter" and yes I think repeatedly saying that your ex will burn in Hell when he dies or that he's Satanic or constantly talking about the "whore" who he had an A two years post divorce with qualifies as "bitter" not psychopathic, the two are not synonymous.

Orchid: Nsso, I apologize for leading you to think I was directing those thoughts to you. I did not address my response to you but understand how you may have thought so. If you read it again, you will find that I address S (sufdb) and 'all'. Not once did I single you out. I used your post as a quote since you brought up the subject of SNL & thinker. Your thoughts entriqued me since you spoke of those 2 in such a familar manner.

In regards to the description of 'psycopath', that was how I described S when he speaks of his xw. It is definitely a bitter thing to have one spouse who has an A and the other is made to look like the scapegoat. I asked SNL in the past (and even subdf) that if his W was as bad as he had said, why didn't he D her earlier? If he knew it as early as he claimed he did, why didn't he exit before the history became more defined? They lived most of their lives together than apart. Now his W does feel that he felt that strongly, he should have released her sooner. Knowing that he kept her until now, makes her angry as if he wanted to use her until she was not worth it to him. Does that sound familar? That WS mentality. If someone did that to us, how would we feel? Do we have a right to be bitter or have an A?

Not-so-Silent-Observer: I also don't know where I said she deserved any bad treatment at all, I'm not at all sure how you inferred anything like that from what I wrote.

Orchid: You didn't. S/SNL has implied it for years. One of his excuses for carrying on the A as long as he has. S has said that A's are not a choice, it just happens. Wonder what other type of crime upon the family can use the same excuse. The inference was not to you unless you know more.

Not-so-Silent-Observer: I'm not at all duped by S, I can read their old exchanges for myself and draw my own conclusions from what is posted in them. To me, it would seem that having divorce papers presented(not necessarily going through with it) would have been a better wake up call to the exw and maybe would have allowed for a real reconcilliation and healing much more than S having an A and giving fuel to a fire that was always simmering just below the surface in both people.

Orchid: The reference was not addressed to you but to 'all'. Good for you and all others who are not duped but many who have come aboard later are not familar with the trauma and drama carried on both on and off MB. If you read their 'old exchanges' you are familar with the various names both have used.

Your statement: "To me, it would seem that having divorce papers presented(not necessarily going through with it) would have been a better wake up call to the exw and maybe would have allowed for a real reconcilliation and healing much more than S having an A and giving fuel to a fire that was always simmering just below the surface in both people. "

This is quite an interesting statement. Who would have had the better wake up call?

Is there a chance that the continuing A has distorted reality for both of them or just 1 of them?

How do you think yourself or others feel if they found out that someone they had come to trust had betrayed that trust under the disguise of another character?

It is starting to look like we are all being made victims of an A. Kinda scary isn't it?

Those questions are not meant just for you. I have pondered the same for a while.

I could get very hurt by how S attempted to defame my character. Hm.... I've seen WS do that to their spouses. Attacking another BS in such a manner is the next step. Well, I c/b crushed to the core but I am not. Neither am I the 300lb travestite/embezzler that he described earlier today. Also, I am also not lesbian that was having an A with FIL as PBR attempted to describe me (PBR was the OW I had to deal with). But if it makes him feel better to discredit my character, then you gotta wonder why.

Communication can be a useful tool or a dangerous weapon. How can you tell when the tool is used as a weapon?

L.

Whatever the results of the poll or despite the response to the same....WTF and WhoTF cares? Each cirumsstance needs to be addressed between the participating parties.

Take your poll and shove it......it serves no other purpose than to stroke your personal indulging ego stroking purpose.

Stop your obsessive self-absorbing mind-**** and get on with life.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
[QB] sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome, and would have been had not the affair occured first... <hr /></blockquote>So, even you agree with the results of the poll, that divorce would have been better than your having the affair? Then what is the point here?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kam6318:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sufdb:
[QB] sufdb...problem solving had been tried many times, with no discernible improvement, you don't try forever, you give up....divorce would have been the better outcome, and would have been had not the affair occured first... <hr /></blockquote>So, even you agree with the results of the poll, that divorce would have been better than your having the affair? Then what is the point here? <hr /></blockquote>The initial point of any poll was to find out stuff using a fairly ridgid format, from that effort (usually) flows comment, discussion, such as you see here. That is the point kam, illumination, understanding, information to incorporate into decsion making....for the most part, (except for a few people who get their kicks trashing someone they don't like, or displacing their own lives onto someone else), that is proceeding well....I can only speak for myself, but I am finding this useful as I try to understand why people (including myself) do what we do, or how we experience life emotionally. Since I place much greater emphasis on proaction(figuring out stuff and acting)..than reaction (feeling things, and responding accordingly), since that is not common, it helps me better understand (and therefore be less likely to feel anger, or that I am being rejected/agressed..for example). Likewise, maybe all you emotional types, can gain some insight into the mental processes of the more rational oriented people in your lives, and be less likely to think they don't care, or are judgemental (which makes you angry/rejected)...it also illustrates temperament, and why if the gap between the two life strategies is too great, it is very unliklely you can have a healthy relationship. There will be constant pressure to "change" the other one. This is clear here, I absolutely infuriate a certain type of person, I suspect they are driven mostly by emotions....I have almost no problems with others here who process life as I do...and are driven by a need to absolutely understand themselves, and others.

I find it so interesting (and occassionally funny) how supposedly "logical" people here argue emotionally, but yet get rude/upset/insulting. It used to confuse me, but my time spent on MB has been well vested, as this is a melting pot of all temperaments, and I have really had my eyes opened alot. It is unfortunate (for us both) I married a highly reactive individual, we stress and misunderstand each other to the max. I cannot understand why she always viewed me as the enemy, or felt interrogated, when I was only talking, trying to problem solve or whatever, and would say the most awful (rejecting) things to me, and think nothing of it....I know now she probably thinks she is being helpful, and is arguing with me as emotional people do, but I cannot understand her, I don't know what she is saying, and I don't know how to argue that way, and I don't want too....and she does not want to "figure" stuff out, and questions like why be married, or what is love, or why do you focus on the op, drive her crazy, and she feels attacked...we might as well be speaking foreign languages to each other....I don't think we actually have any idea who each other really are...I don't think we can....that use to really upset me, but over the years slowly but surely as we cooperated with our one area of mutual need (raising our kids, whom we both love immensely), I came to understand our differences were irreconcileable...and I should have cooperated with her in her desire for divorce....she "felt" the truth faster than I "figured" out the truth.

anyways, this process, of seeking understanding is the basic "point".... for everyone, including you. What is not ok, is trashing people who are struggling (as happens often to me) just cause they are struggling the way YOU struggle, or cause you don't understand their temperament, so "feel" they are dangerous to you...why do you suppose people trash those whose behavior they don't like? Instead of just letting them be. Like geezlouise above, nothing useful, just a gratuitious slam, I suppose to make her feel better about herself at my expense, why do you think people do that?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 I said ... are you alright?

Do you feel OK?

Pep <hr /></blockquote>"feel" huh, no I do not feel ok, but I feel better than I have for years. I am still situationally depressed (medicate with chocolate), and struggle with guilt (and not for "those" reasons)...I have learned I am hyperresponsible, and have immense difficulty in NOT "feeling" responsible for everyone in my purview. But the truth will set you free, and I will be ok, albeit scarred up some. What prompted you to ask this?

orchid...In regards to the description of 'psycopath', that was how I described S when he speaks of his xw. Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?

sufdb...you said orchid..."""Has S, duped you all into thinking he was fully justified by his D? That his xw is a psycopath and deserves to have her family turned against her? That the xw is the only one of his family suffering from the D and that the children and other relatives are happy with his current lifestyle?""""

That is taking extreme libeties under the guise of analyzing, and suggests a different agenda. I do not characterize my exw that way, and in fact mostly just state the facts, which stand on their own. But clearly, "labeling" someones comments as identifying their spouse as a psychopath works to reducing their credibility...was that your purpose? You asked a question (you refer to, and I did you the courtesy of an answer), now you twist it around to suit your argument, I consider that inappropriate, and revealing of some other purpose. "Current lifestyle" what the heck is that supposed to mean? You mean working my butt off, taking care of my kids needs (and often the exw as well, despite the unceasing vitriol), working on my own recovery/growth, taking care of my mom, and rarely speeding, and paying ALL my support monies (as well as extras), you mean that current lifestyle? Why wouldn't that be well thought of? My kids are exteremely intelligent, and they are all adults, who have observed their mother for years....everyone of them will tell you I have done nothing but try to convince them their mother loves them, and does not mean the things she does (verbally and emotionally) to them, other than, that her issues with them have nothing to do with me, and I certainly have not turned them against her....

o..It is definitely a bitter thing to have one spouse who has an A and the other is made to look like the scapegoat.

sufdb...How do you come up with this baloney.
"scapegoat" how so, the facts speak for themselves re all our marital circumstances, including mine. And I (like any responsible person) have taken full responsibility for my actions, including decideing to marry (despite promises made and not kept) which obligates me to proivide appropriately for my exw, responsbility for my affair (which means I accepted an appropriate amount of verbal abuse without complaint), and my divorce, which despite my exw filing, I had no objection too, and say so (so as not to make it all about being her choice).

o...I asked that if his W was as bad as he had said, why didn't he D her earlier? If he knew it as early as he claimed he did, why didn't he exit before the history became more defined?

sufdb...ya know, what is your point? You know the answer, it is the same answer for everyone....THE KIDS....

o.. They lived most of their lives together than apart. Now his W does feel that he felt that strongly, he should have released her sooner.

sufdb...my wife was told many times when she requested divorce, fine, do it...but I will not cause it violates our relgious beliefs. She said she would, but was concerned about finances. No mystery orchid, all the cards were on the table. It was her call.

o...Knowing that he kept her until now, makes her angry as if he wanted to use her until she was not worth it to him.

sufdb...keep? Like a horse or something....my exw had no freewill? No responsibility for her circumstances? Can just be as abusive and neglectful as she wants, and expect no consequences? What world do you live in? She was free to go anytime, and she knew I was extremely unhappy and disillusioned with the marriage. I had no obligation to locate a crystal ball which would reveal my (or her) future behavior, she was a full partner in the dysfunction of our marriage, and therefore in it's failure, I will not let that be placed on my shoulders alone.

o...Does that sound familar? That WS mentality. If someone did that to us, how would we feel? Do we have a right to be bitter or have an A?

sufdb...no one has a right to bitterness, what an ignorant notion. Mentality? You mean truth has a mentality to it....then I want that mentality, I much prefer to deal in truth, facts, and such in resolving relationships....and I did. My exw knew exactly where I was emotionally, cause unlike many males, I am very verbal, and revealing of my emotional state....she knew everything, it just didn't make any difference to her.

Not-so-Silent-Observer: I also don't know where I said she deserved any bad treatment at all, I'm not at all sure how you inferred anything like that from what I wrote.

Orchid: You didn't. he has implied it. One of his excuses for carrying on the A as long as he has.

sufdb...That is a bald faced lie. I never said/implied any such thing, and in fact said repeatedly (and do so again now) NO ONE ever deserves bad treatement...We are ALL responsible for our actions, and if we treat someone bad (as does happen) we need to apologize and/or make appropriate ammends (for our own well-being as much as anything)...perhaps you confused over natural consequences...which in fact one does "deserve".

Your statement: "To me, it would seem that having divorce papers presented(not necessarily going through with it) would have been a better wake up call to the exw and maybe would have allowed for a real reconcilliation and healing much more than S having an A and giving fuel to a fire that was always simmering just below the surface in both people. "

This is quite an interesting statement. Who would have had the better wake up call?

sufdb...In my case, being presented with divorce papers would have been a relief, having this hang over your head for years is he**. There was no wakeup call for me, I had come to understand nothing would ever change because of the nature of the temperaments involved (although I had not yet been educated to those things). You need to understand the nature of giving up for a rational individual....I had concluded I had done everything I could, and was done, just keeping house and raising kids, and staying out of her way...that was all I was doing, and would have welcomed a divorce as a release from my vows (that was the real issue for me, along with the kids). She had thorougly convinced me there was nothing I could do to become desireable in her eyes, or make her happy, that in fact I was the source of all that was wrong for her in life....I disagreed with that idea, but recognized I could not change her mind....I was the classic walkaway wife (just wrong gender).

o...Is there a chance that the continuing A has distorted reality for both of them or just 1 of them?

sufdb...Excuse me? More character assasination? What continuing affair? First I am single, and have been seperated/divorce well over 2 years...As for the affair, it lasted about 3 months (after crossing into EA), and a few months of withdrawal as it ended for good. I wanted nothing to do with affair relationships, that was my one and only, and there will not be a repeat. I regret that one, but I did use it as a learning experience, and will only seek relationships with single people, if I so decide....and I will do so with whoever I please, regardless of their history, bs, ws, op, or none of above....is my choice.

o...It is starting to look like we are all being made victims of an A. Kinda scary isn't it?

sufdb..what is scarey is this trip through the twilight zone...what is your goal here? Ya know, maybe life is just what it is, no need to concoct elaborate convoluted scenarios....people get married, they have issues, and they divorce...happens all the time.

o...I could get very hurt by how S attempted to defame my character. Hm.... I've seen WS do that to their spouses. Attacking another BS in such a manner is the next step. Well, I c/b crushed to the core but I am not. Neither am I the 300lb travestite/embezzler that he described earlier today.

sufdb... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I see, so ok to trash my character, but heaven forbid I even use a clear analogy to chastise you. Not gonna fly orchid, give it a rest.

o...Also, I am also not lesbian that was having an A with FIL as PBR attempted to describe me (PBR was the OW I had to deal with). But if it makes him feel better to discredit my character, then you gotta wonder why.

sufdb...yep, and you might look in the mirror and ask that very question.

something has got your goat, but frankly, while I am still inclinded to give you the benefit of the doubt re your good intentions...your actions are not helpful, not even remotely accurate. You do not understand me or my marriage very well, and your continuing effort to suggest I am either very confused, or maliciously motivated (depending on which way the wind was blowing when you post I guess....those seem to be your 2 favorite theories) both serve no purpose but to further my exw notion she is a victim, and reduces the likelihood she will recover. Please stop.

What I wonder the most about this thread is why is this WS [the poll author] here at MB still posting.

Unlike the members here who are trying to marriage build or get over a divorce they desperately did not want, he [sufdb] got what he wanted, a divorce and OW. Why is he still here posting? Makes ya wonder doesn't it.

I would have thought he'd be moving-on with his OW living happily ever after. It's baffling to me.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Resilient:
 What I wonder the most about this thread is why is this WS [the poll author] here at MB still posting.

Unlike the members here who are trying to marriage build or get over a divorce they desperately did not want, he [sufdb] got what he wanted, a divorce and OW. Why is he still here posting? Makes ya wonder doesn't it.

I would have thought he'd be moving-on with his OW living happily ever after. It's baffling to me. <hr /></blockquote>sufdb....perhaps you are confusing me with someone else...I stopped my affair, have no interest in another one (or intend to mess with married women)...ever, and have no "ow" either real of blow-up...

As to why I participate here, have answered that often, but what the hey, do it again. Because marital psychology interests me, I want to know as much about it as I can for my own well-being, and so I can mentor my kids about marital matters as successfully as possible. Why the continuing driveby shots at me jo? Have I done something to you? Or am I standing in for displaced anger....once again. Believe it or not, I am an individual with value and worth too, have a life, good points and bad points, hopes and dreams and problems, and have experienced substantial emotional injury I need to recover from...this place helps in all these regards... as it does for everyone else.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />sufdb....perhaps you are confusing me with someone else<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Good lord.

Then why do you keep answering questions regarding SNL, and speaking for him (i.e., as if you are him)?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />suf wrote:
and have experienced substantial emotional injury I need to recover from<hr /></blockquote>You know, normally I would be quite compassionate and express empathy for your grief, I really would. But as you have stated on this very thread "all your pain is self inflicted, YOUR CHOICE."

[ May 29, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Resilient:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />suf wrote:
and have experienced substantial emotional injury I need to recover from<hr /></blockquote>You know, normally I would be quite compassionate and express empathy for your grief, I really would. But as you have stated on this very thread "all your pain is self inflicted, YOUR CHOICE." <hr /></blockquote>I think I need to send you a telegram or something...you don't seem to read what I say very well here...

I did not say what you quoted, but what I do say is emotions are real, are not right or wrong, and need to be dealt with.....what you do have control over is how you choose to deal with your emotions....I think I am dealing with mine in a very healthy manner. I do not seek sympathy particularly...and empathy is not something you give, it is something you experience, what I seek is understanding, and I am finding it.

btw..I said cofusing me with someone else, because whoever I am here is irrelevant...what counts is real life...and this real life person does not believe in affairs, will not engage in one, and therefore has no ow. Although I will always have been a ws, I am not now, nor ever will be again an om...capish?

[ May 29, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: sufdb ]

Locking, copy sent to moderator storage.