I surrender / Give up - Marriage Builders® Forums

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This is going to be an inappropriately short post, considering it's significance. But Dylan and I had part 2 of a very serious conversation last night and I thought I'd post the results before whipping off to work.

I surrender.

It's over.

No big crisis... I'm not crushed or freaking out. (yet)

But it's been 10 months since 'this' all began. Many years longer if you look at 'everything'. I do not have the fortitude to carry this torch anymore.

From this point forward, my efforts will be to learn to get along with Dylan as a 'friend' and room-mate. I don't have real high hopes for this, but I'm going to give it my best effort anyway.

Back in Jan, when I first posted about all this, someone pointed out that it's been many years since Dylan showed any kind of real 'in love' feelings and that I should probably just face facts.

Well, I am.

Gotta run.

Ciao all.

dewt

[ August 09, 2004, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]

just keep doing what you can, when you can, for as long as you can, continued prayers to you AND your family, RR

dewt - Might be time to rest up and take care of you. This stuff gets exhausting for sure. I've been going through this for 16 months, and it isn't easy. But once you give up on changing or expecting anything from the WS, is does get easier.

deut,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From this point forward, my efforts will be to learn to get along with Dylan as a 'friend' and room-mate. I don't have real high hopes for this, but I'm going to give it my best effort anyway.

Back in Jan, when I first posted about all this, someone pointed out that it's been many years since Dylan showed any kind of real 'in love' feelings and that I should probably just face facts.
<hr /></blockquote>What are the ground rules for your co-habitation? If it is that neither one of you are going to date (that is, have affairs), and that you're going to focus on friendship and co-parenting---then you probably have a decent shot to rekindle love.

If you and dylan are going to continue to have affairs, than this is unlikely to work, because from what I can see you still have strong feelings for each other.

'In love' feelings can be recreated---but you need a plan and a willingness to execute it. I've been very disappointed in the two of you because I've seen no willingness to seek the professional help the two of you need to do this and to be successful in parenting your children. You would think that after both of you being here you would see and understand the value in doing the work correctly, in order to have a safe, happy marriage and to provide your kids a stable environment---instead, I see a combination of pleasure seeking and flight reactions by two people who just ought to know better.

I think giving up doesn't mean it is over. It just means that it won't hurt you much now, and things should get easier now. If it turns out to be in love again, you've got a bonus. That is the stage I am trying to reach now.

Howdy folks,

I, for once, am pretty much speechless. The magnitude of this is verrrry slowly starting to sink in.

We will need to sit down with pen and paper in hand and draw up the 'ground rules'. I have a few ideas, but won't spout them off until I've had a chance to go over it with Dylan.

She has made it pretty clear how she feels about being married to me. Not just over the last two nights, and not just over the last 10 months, but over the years.

People have posted over and over that 'some marriages aren't meant to be saved' and as much as I've always hated hearing that, it looks like it's something I'm going to have to accept.

Anyway, I'm still reeling and I know this ain't much of a post. Thanks for dropping in.

dewt

dewt,

first things first,((((((HUGS!!!!))))) to you.

I feel ya.

Sometimes, it is all about being a friend. Best friends. You are where you are. If you find that is not working for you, then plan B, and ws needs to go, it is.

I know you are reeling. I think I hear fogspeak from your ws. But you just need to know her EN's and if she is still there ya need to go and figure that one out as long as she is there.

If and when you cannot take it anymore, you start to lose that love, your LB is empty, then it is time to reconsider.

My suggestion is plan A for the MOMENT. Only because I just don't have a whole lot of info on your situation.

Praying for you. And by the way, you are truely worthy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , especially as you want to save your marriage/family.

I don't know if you are of the Christian faith, but I would be turning this over to God, and asking what it is YOU need to do to deal with this situation.

I know it is hard and that you are hurting. We all care about you here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LOVE IN CHRIST,
Miss M

Dewt

To me surrendering is the first step in "becoming". It is a beginning, not an end.

Be true to yourself, and to your own beliefs. You are where you need to be, experiencing what you need to experience in order to get to where you are supposed to be. In other words you really never had a choice but to make the decisions that you have made. That is part of surrendering and also part of accepting. I know that sounds very vague, but that is the best I can do at the moment.

Weaver

dewt,

Hey, I know you are caring about your family.

This is Good, good, good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Being a good parent, and a best friend is okay.

I don't know exactly where you are.

If you cannot be a good friend to ws with continuing contact, let us know. I say plan a for now, but if you can't do it maybe you should think about plan b.

Sometimes ws needs to be on their own and figure that out. I know you were in plan A while ws was gone. She is back.

Sounds like the fog is as thick as pea soup.

Anyway, thank you so much for responding to my post.

By the way, you are WORTHY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ! Just step back from all of this and figure out what is healthiest for you, your little one(s) and your marriage. Don't react.

God Bless you and prayers goin' your way!

Love in Christ,
Miss M

deut:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />People have posted over and over that 'some marriages aren't meant to be saved' and as much as I've always hated hearing that, it looks like it's something I'm going to have to accept. <hr /></blockquote>You know, when I see that posted I think it's a huge cop out. If two people are willing to do the work required, pretty much any marriage can be saved. Including those that have infidelity, physical abuse, alcoholism, and other troubles.

But---you have to do the work. What's Dylan's excuse??

Sure, when two people are willing to do the work...

However, that isn't the case.

And to be honest, even when I was doing my best to do the work, I screwed it up.

During the affair, I did my best to 'Plan A'. That is, no disrespectful judgements, no angry outbursts and no selfish demands. I tried to be pleasant and not drive her away. All I really managed to do was fall to pieces.

And after the separation I kept trying. And I stumbled a few times. And after stumbling, I got up, dusted myself off and kept trying.

But I'll tell ya, for the three weeks she was away, back in Smalltownsville, a lot of thoughts and feelings bubbled up to the surface. Years of rejection and unmet emotional needs kept dominating my thoughts. I'm not saying that I've always been perfect and she has not... but there are key areas/needs that are sooooooo important to me that were never satisified. And to be honest, I'd almost grown to accept that. UNTIL I saw her behave towards another person in the exact manner that I'd been dying to have her act towards me.

When it was first suggested that she and I just live together and not work on our marriage, I thought, 'fog talk', agreed to it but decided that I would follow your advice (K) and Plan A for three months (or until it worked - whichever came first)

I can't do it anymore. I've got huge issues around abandonment and rejection. Issues that go waaaaay back and issues that have been directly attacked over the years and specifically made me weak in areas that (to have done this properly) I should really have been strong.

She says she can't get over me having sex with my ex. She says she's not even up to trying. It's too big.

I feel like I don't have the stregnth to maintain my resolve anymore. I don't want to lose anymore love for her. I feel like if I accept what she says and just try to move on, I can put so many of those issues away and we have a (slim) chance of making this insane arrangement work. If I don't respect her decision, and keep carrying the torch, I will crumble. I will steadily lose love for her, drown in my insecurities and resentments and this will implode.

Kicking her out and firing up th'ol plan B is not going to work.

Anyway, speaking of work, it's time for me to split. I've pointed out this thread to her and invited her to post.

dewt

deut,

Sleeping with your x was not part of Plan A, and it was incredibly stupid. If for no other reason, it gives Dylan a tangible reason for not working on the marriage (on top of her other issues).

Bottom line is that I see no commitment to get a professional involved here. If there isn't, you should be in Plan B now. No if's, and's or but's... What you've currently got going is obviously not going to work.

Sit on the couch tonight, together---and ask yourselves if you're both very proud of what a freakin' disaster you've made this marriage and family. Ask each other why your pain is so bad that you can't find it in yourself to put this past aside to attempt to do the work to heal yourselves, your marriage, and your family. The path I see you guys on right now isn't going to make you, dylan, or the kids better---either in the short term or in the long run.

I will pipe in here, if only for a moment....

Dewt is at work, and I have both children here, and we are planning an outdoor excursion, so I have not much time...

I will return to post this evening, as I think there are issues to address, and things I would like to say...

I just wanted Dewt et al. to know I will be commenting..., and yes, K, I will list my "excuses" for you as well...

Dylan

Dylan and Dewt,

Hmmmmm...don't really know what to say to you guys. I've thought of you often and hoped that things would work out.

Listen to K, he does know what he's talking about.

Hugs and prayers going out to both of you!

Mitzi <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by K:
 Sleeping with your x was not part of Plan A, and it was incredibly stupid. <hr /></blockquote>Yes. Stupid. For many reasons. Can't take it back though. If I could, believe me, I would.

Can't take anything back. Can only look back, try to understand where I went wrong, and not make the same mistakes. Try to see where I didn't go right, and make sure that I start (and keep) doing that. And yes, counselling will play an important part of that. Nobody on this end thinks counselling is not mandatory for us both.

For almost a month, she was away (with Mini) in OW territory. I believe her that there was no contact. I was alone and spent a lot of time pretty deep in thought. Not good thoughts either. Bitterness, resentfulness, the magnitude of the betrayal washed over me with more profound force than I have yet felt. I lost more love units over that time than at any other time in our history.

Don't get me wrong, I love her. Always will. But the fight is gone. If this is what she wants, then I'm not going to stand against it anymore. The only hope our relationship has/had is if both of us dedicate ourselves to making it work. Otherwise we'll be on the same see-saw we've been riding for 6 years. I'd rather set on fire and thrown in a hole than go back to that.

I don't have any excuses. I've been fighting a personal war with HUGE issues (and losing the odd battle) to try to keep myself faithful and devoted. Or at least do the right thing.

I don't have the stamina to keep it up. Not alone.

Not a cry of desperation here. Simple statement of fact.

OW said she "wasn't taking Dylan away from (me), she'd already left long ago." And ya-ya, I know... typical.

Regardless, it was the truth.

Having said that, and looking back at parts of my post here, I see that my tone could come across as despairing or defeatist. Oddly, such is not the case. Much of this is written with a wry grin on my face.

I'll do my best to deal with this (semi)new scenario. I do have doubts about its feasibility, but considering my list of alternatives right now, it's not looking so bad. (wry grin) Worse case scenario, we split up but it's amicable and planned and everyone will have a chance to prepare.

Bottom line:

I really and truly have no idea what I'm doing.

I do know that, as a wise person once noted, I don't do well when my needs aren't being met. My biggest need right now, and it's at an undeniable state, is to know what the hel... *ahem* heck my life is. Where I'm going. Out of limbo.

This is what she wants. Separation didn't change her mind. Plan B didn't change her mind. No contact with OW didn't change her mind. I sure as heck gave her a coupla good reasons not to change her mind.

So maybe it's time for me to just respect her wishes and let it go.

dewt

disclaimer:
I know I haven't addressed a lot of all your points, please excuse... I'm still unloading thougths and feelings. I've read all your posts with gratitude and hope you will keep posting.

[ August 04, 2004, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]

K, to start with one of your questions, we initially agreed not to date for some time, to allow for an equilibrium witin our own relationship to occur...but as of late, Dewt has stated that he will, more likely than not, not be celibate....it is a choice he has made, knowing his # 1 need is affection...and intimacy...

I have also made a choice, and that is not to date...

I have many issues and problems that come with my emotional baggage, ad I did not lie when I told Dewt 7 months ago that I was on a journey of self....I have alot to think about, many issues to address..many bitter, resentful thoughts and feelings to rid myself of...much work to do..I am of no use to myself right now, so why would I inflict a damaged me on someone else?!?!

Even if I was to fight for my marriage, it would be years....years before I was of any use to Dewt...I quite frankly, feel too damaged...too tired...too disappointed... repeatedly.

I'm done. I'm sad and devastated (but shouldn't be allowed because I am the WS)...but there is no more fight in me...

the ex thing is simply too big to get into at this late an hour...

as for Dewt, I have indeed made it plain how I have felt about you all these years...I have loved you...body and soul...loved you...but with the feeling of being constantly disappointed, with the feeling of always coming second to the ex, to feeling alone and then betrayed, but I never left, I stayed, but couldn't desire you and show you that love in the way you needed...ok....but buddy, I have loved you...and you know it..the things we have been through, the things I have stayed through...you yourself have admitted no one else on God's geen earth would have stuck by you...

that's how I felt about being married to you...9 years of protecting, caring, loving, forgiving, overlooking, procrastinating...some of it (your #1 EN) just was not delivered in the manner in which you needed it to be...

K, I agree, if 2 people are willing, and like Dewt says, I am just no longer willing,and as he stated the other night, if in a few years, I come to my senses, and want him back, and when it is "too late" as he says it will be, then those are the consequences of my actions now...

I cannot do this....not again...

I do not have it in me to go through what I did 6 years ago again ...yet now involving the most evil and psychopathic woman I have ever encountered...

no.

In this scenario, I am the wayward, but have felt repeatedly betrayed by Dewts actions, which were directly contrary to the words he was using with me....how ironic...to be the wayward and feel multiple betrayals....but all he can see and feel is what I have inflicted on him....

I remember that pain...as a betrayed you never really do forget...and I have now to live with the knowledge that I too, have inflicted the greatest physical and emotional pain ever...on a beloved human being...

I am not allowed to be the betrayed here....

If I stay his wife, I have to deal with this....try to forgive, recover, work through...

we saw how well I did with recovery last time...6 years and the dam burst...

there is no getting through this, not for me, K...this is too big...she and sex with her represents too much....9 years of a life in which her evil schemes had a large part in the chaos and stress, not to mention police presence....

and to say you want to be married, posting on MB, have advice telling you straight out to keep your pants zipped, that hey, she may not be coming back to you, but with her there, you have a great chance to plan A, to make the impression you want...etc...and to throw it all away and then to come back here, and want sympathy and understanding..repeatedly ...after having said you've forgiven your wife her affair, and to end a relationship with someone because of your marriage and feelings for your wife...and 20 days later, be having sex with your ex-wife in the new apartment you hope to recover your marriage in, while your children are in the next room....

it is all too much...

I believe Pepperband...Dewt is self-sabotaging...

and to call these sexual events "stumbles"....well, then he truly has no idea of the magnitude of these "stumbles"...again, I nod my hat to Pepperband...these are not stumbles, these are Dewt repeateedly throwing himself off of a cliff....and then being upset that his legs are broken...

3 sexual partners in 6 months, but he tries to convinve me that our marriage is worth saving??!?!...

his excuse being that he is only human?!?!...and weak?!...

I can't buy that...to paraphrase ARK....

ANYTHING but the ex.....perhaps, it could have been different, as i told Dewt myself the other night...it may have been surmountable...but she's the cherry on top of it all...making it insurmountable....it was a slap in the face for my affair...knowingly...a slap in the face...that isn't love...but then again, neither is having an affair....

and don't get me started on the sexual issues I need to deal with....dewt may want to overlook it, and believe steadfastly that I used a same-sex partner as an exit-move...but I obviously could not have gone in that direction solely for the purposr of leaving Dewt....it wasn't like that...it may be sick and twisted, but there was POJA on it...until dewt asked me to stop...by then I had feelings...feelings I felt needed to be explored....

I mean my god, what if this was the reason that I could never be what Dewt needed...???....right or wrong, true or not, I felt at the time, it needed to be explored, because it could explain much...perhaps.

I didn't leave Dewt over the years...and I didn't leave 6 years ago after his affair...even though every bone in my body told me to...I knew cheating was his exit pattern (just as these times were used, I believe), and I have to date, been cheated on by almost everyone I have ever been involved with...and I have never been the one to leave...and even this past January...Dewt left me....with reason...don't get me wrong...with reason....but in the end, I still couldn't and wouldn't leave him...

past trauma....I just can't watch the pattern anymore, just can't keep being untrue to myself and finding myself in a place I shouldn't be..

Dewt and I need to learn to be friends...we need to learn how to be parents...there has been so much stress and chaos....

and yes, I worry about his dating..because of all this stress and chaos...he needs to breathe...and rest...and get in touch with himself and learn to control and master his needs...

I love him very much, K....I will love him until my deathbed...but after the ex, he would have to live a celibate life with me, because right now,all that I feel is.... physical intimacy....is not an option...nor would it be...my flesh crawls...I can't explain it without sounding like a frootloop...but I do believe that Dewt understands...he equated sex with her to beastiality once, not long ago....

6 degrees of seperation......I don't do animals.

this is rambling and disjointed....it is late, and I wrote out of my head..not out of my journal with formed thoughts....

I need a bigger block of time to fully explain my feelings and my decisions...

Dewt deserves more than I can give right now....more than I will be able to give for the next LONG while...

I just have nothing left to give....hollow...empty...

no, I am not proud of the disaster I have wrought...

but I am tired..

... and this seems to be the way to make it all stop without carrying bitterness and resentment into our future (whatever form it takes)....

bottomline....I am stubborn ..I cannot forgive the last indiscretion...my affair or not, I cannot forgive intimacy with the antichrist...

Dylan

Dylan,

Thanks for writing. And I thought you were going to tell me of problems you thought were insurmountable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What you tell me is perfectly understandable. The fact that you still "love" deut is a good thing, as far as recovery goes. My major issue (without "knowing" your side), is that deut talks the talk, but has no freakin' indication of being able to walk the walk.

Would you be willing to be involved in MC with someone "good"---assuming that there wasn't a push for you to resume intimacy with deut until he had done the work necessary for you to feel better about this?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />we initially agreed not to date for some time, to allow for an equilibrium witin our own relationship to occur<hr /></blockquote>This sounded like a good plan---to work on maintaining a relationship, learn to avoid lovebusters, meet the other's emotional needs that you're willing to meet (or have met) in a way that the other is enthusiastic about. This would be a great first step for marriage recovery.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />...but as of late, Dewt has stated that he will, more likely than not, not be celibate....it is a choice he has made, knowing his # 1 need is affection...and intimacy...<hr /></blockquote>So, you've been together for a month or so---and he's unwilling to stick by the original agreement. The threat he uses is "put out, or I'll see my X for some animal sex, just like a few months ago..."

Nice. I must have missed that in the MB manual.

The bottom line is that, from your POV, I bet this marriage is recoverable. But Deut has got to back up the talk with real, accountable actions. I disagree with you about him "needing" more than you can give. He wants more---but he's accountable for you being in a state where you're unable to even think about giving to him again.

So Deut---what's it going to be? More talk and self-sabotage??---which is why I stopped wasting my time posting to you. Or are you really going to demonstrate that you can care about your wife and family, by getting into appropriate marriage counseling and establishing a new track record of appropriate marriage behavior? The ball has been in your court for a long time. It's time to get serious...

And Dylan---hold onto a consistent plan of not lovebusting and meeting the parental needs that you both have and cherish. Your feelings of loathing for him sexually could change---given a strong demonstration of self-control on deut's part, coupled with a nice move somewhere far away from the X. I have some understanding of your frustrations---I don't love the guy and only know him through here---and I've wanted to throttle him on several occasions.

I'll be praying for you both.

dewt, dylan:

I probably shouldn't be posting 2day, because I'm in such a bad mood, but I just read this thread and need 2 get this off my chest:

Do you 2 realize what you have here???

COMMUNICATION

Sure, you're 2th ridiculously bogged down in the drama of "he did this, so I did that" or "I'm tired, I don't have it in me 2 do this anymore" back and forth. 2 bad you can't read this from an outsider's viewpoint (for that matter, neither can I), because if you "ignore" the life-altering ramifications of the choices that you're 2th avoiding making NOW, the whole thing is pretty damned funny.

The communication is your salvation. Don't underestimate that. I do all the time. You 2 are able 2 tell each other your innermost insecurites. I got snapped at last week for telling my W "I care about you." Not even ILY.

I'm tired 2. But you know what? Think about this for a minute (no, think about it for several hours, and then communicate your thoughts 2 one another): Whether you "give up", "surrender" or go down fighting, you will continue 2 take this drama and your insecurities with you for as long as you 2th shall live.

Might as well work with someone you CAN talk 2.

My advice? Work 2gether on this. Stop harping on unmet ENs (the scope of misinterpretation regarding ENs and personal responsibility in these sitches is really starting 2 piss me off). Give a little and meet the other's ENs from time 2 time just because it's the right thing 2 do, and stop fretting over whether some past wrong (recent or ancient, it doesn't matter) is insurmountable or not.

You have NO choice but 2 overcome your past.

-ol' 2long

Dylan & Dewt,

I know and respect K's guidance and support through your ordeal so just consider this another MBers 2 cents. Pull out the good of it and discard the rest.

What I have seen through both your postings is that your love each other but can't or won't meet each others needs.

U dylan need to be 'friends' with Dewt for the sake of the children? But are you really being anyone's friend with this behavior? Don't you think your children will feel they are being used to bring more hurt to their dad? What kind of friend are you being to Dewt if he has to see but not touch or complete his act of love for his family? Won't you be in the way of when he does find someone to share his family and love with?

Dewt, I know you are tired and hurt. Not getting your needs met and being on both sides of the fence is a hard place t/b. You have by your own actions worn out your wife's welcome mat for you. Knowing you can't fix the past, you now are left with your children, someone who is not willing to be your W and your future. Does that sum it up?

It seems like both of you are willing to accept less for finanical considerations. Don't think that plan will last very long. I don't care if the zippers are stuck on both your pants. Nope. Needs eventually take over if not controlled for the right reasons and abstainance is not always an acceptable option.

My question to both of you is what are each of you willing to do for your family? Be married or divorce?

Jmho, of course. I would like to see each of you and your family have a happier future. But you can't stay in limbo and expect to keep living as if all is well.

L.

I must admit, it is nice to have access to a computer that does not drive one insane in the attempt to type a few words......

both Dewt and I have the utmost respect for you, K, your opinions, your POV, and of course, respect for all you have been through yourself...

you made a mention of not "knowing my side"...I would love to enlighten..but what, specifically are you referrring to?..the affair, emotions,...what aspect of my "side" is it that would clarify anything for you?...

as for your comment "deut talks the talk, but has no freakin' indication of being able to walk the walk."

well, yes...and watching this over the past months does not allow for many love units to be deposited...JUST AS my fence sitting and keeping him in limbo did nothing to increase the units I was depositing....

I guess I expected better, or just different....I was the wayward...it was expected that I would be in a "fog", that I would fence sit...these are earmarked qualities in a WS....

I think I hoped for better behaviour from Dewt....even if I was embroiled in my fence-sitting....

even without a plan for recovery, I felt we both understood that the no-dating and celibate aspect was the only way to go without "rocking the boat"....giving us both the time required to heal, and be able to pursue romantic entanglements when healed, whole and able to contribute something positive in a relationship...even if the relationships were not with each other...

you said:
"So, you've been together for a month or so---and he's unwilling to stick by the original agreement. The threat he uses is "put out, or I'll see my X for some animal sex, just like a few months ago..."

I need to remedy this misunderstanding...no, Dewt has not threated me with "putting out or he'll go elsewhere"...and I would certainly hope their are no designs with the ex...she has been forgiven by her boyfriend and is in her relationship...

yes, he is unwilling to stick by what we initially discussed...but admittedly because of his weakmness for emotional contact...that it is need to be held, kissed, touched and admired that has him in a mental place where he just wanted to know from me where we really stood, so thaat if he found himself in aposition to accept affection, he would not feel as if he were "betraying" us...

this past weekend, before mini and I's return to Quebec, he found himself again in a position where he might have weakened..alone, inebriated in a car with a single lady driving him home from a party...he could have explored the situation, but chose not to...but was then left feeling conflicted, because if he and I were truly "through", then he need not take my feelings and his loyalties into consideration, and he could guilt-free, pursue some affection...

I just neede to clarify that..he did not threaten me with having sex with the ex again....it is not a question of me putting out...and I can't have you believing that....

the marriage is no longer recoverable....that is my POV...a relationship of another sort is recoverable...but not an intimate marriage type...

if you read Kat's post on safe places...that is what I need to do...find it within myself...and then move forward into my life and whatever relationship I decide to pursue....

I am 36, and have not the strngth required anymore to see Dewt through walking and talking his talk...I have watched his attempts and closed my eyes in pain...knowing him to be floundering, and hoping and praying ...but I could not help him..he needed to see where and what his decisions would bring him and then deal with his consequences...I feel like I have been, at times, raising an adolescent for many years....and I needed to invest in "tough love"...well...

this disaster is, on BOTH our parts, what we have reaped..I could and perhaps should have spoken more about my intent to come back here, watch him, see if the changes he purported to be making were truly something he was working on, but everytime I'd look, was when he coincidentally would "stumble"......I remember phone calls in which he promised that he would become the man I needed him to be, that he was learning responsibility, he was making the changes, doing the work...then bam...his rollercoaster (that most BS's ride)would kick in, he was left in limbo, succumbed to it, and then there is a girlfriend, then bam....sleepovers with the girlfriend, with our children present, then bam...

I have no more faith..

I now believe that all these "stumble" were his own exit moves....

the final stumble, if you will notice, being the ONE he KNEW would kill all love units for him within me...he knew this, and I believe wants us both out of the cycle of pain and doom...

I can no longer be a party to these patterns and these behaviours...loving him is not enough...he does need more than I can offer him...

he really does care about his family...he and I just made very poor choices, reacted to the pain and despair instead of working harder to fix anything....

I have hurt him more than anyone ever has...and in a way he NEVER would have bet on...we all know the pain infidelity brings, and the insecurities, the questions, the rage, the loss.......

he never thought I would ever inflict something like this ....

It should never have happened...it is against all moral and ethical codes in my personal belief system...

6 years ago he warned me..even after I had decided to stay and try to recover our marriage...he told me point blank to not expect the same gift frokm him...that if I were ever to cheat, he would be gone...

that was very telling...

so was his claim that there would be another woman in his bed in a matter of days if we ever seperated...

then I am left to think about if this is the character and fibre of the person I want to be spending time (a lifetime) with...

so, I shouldn't leave him, we should work and save our marriage...but if the tables were turned (and now 6 yrs later they are)...I should not expect the same in return from him...and indeed, 6 yrs later, and he did indeed leave....

I still maintain that Dewt does not love me..he will argue this with his dying breath, but....he has taken a teenage relationship we had 20 years ago, blown it out of proportion, and has placed me in a position of being his ideal female...

people who love each other don't do this to each other...not repeatedly...

he cheated when we were teens, he cheated on almost every girlfriend he had, he cheated on me, and he has to learn how to remove himself from that pattern before he can even approach a healthy relationship again.....that is why I believe mary, the ex, and the stranger from the internet happened...his insecurities get the better of him and he caves in to these needs...

it has been enough of a pattern in his life and others I have chosen to date, that I think it may be part of the reason for my lack of libido...what the hell is the point of intimacy, when it is constantly being cheapened??

sex is sacred to me...he knows my viewpoint...at this point, I really don't care if I am ever intimate physically again...there are other means and other forms of it for me to search out...sex is ruined....its cheap, dirty and just unattractive to me now...look at what it gets us...look what happens if you are a slave to it....

tangeant: did your W ever recover her sexual health?...

I need therapy to deal with all this, I know...and as soon as it is financially do-able i will pursue it with a vengence

moving far away from the ex is not possible...we tried that, and it made things worse...he has created a situation where no contact is not possible..he and she share a child...a son and access to him are at stake....

as they always have been, and as such, they have and still do take precedence over almost all else...I cannot begin to number the times she has said jump....and we ask how high...

I'm done....this is no longer an issue..as a roomate, not a spouse, she is not my problem...I no longer have to bite my tongue, or eschew viewpoints I dont really believe in (so's not to upset her)...I have regained an important part of my sanity, knowing I can respond to anything regarding her and her influence in our lives with : "it is no longer my business, and quite frankly my dear, I no longer give a damn"..

I do not need to be super-peacekeeper, no more mediator hat to wear, no more humouring her....no more shutting up....no more death threats...schemes...

the air is clearer up here, and finally, after 9 years, K, I feel at least in that one area, I CAN FINALLY BREATHE...

I feel as if 800 pounds of stress is gone...

thank you for your continued faith, for your words and for your prayers...they are much appreciated....especially in light of the fact that we BOTH should have known better....

more to come, must pay attention to kidlets now...

Dylan

Hi Dylan,

I wish I had a quick 3 point plan that would take this all and fix it... but I don't.

The bottom line from your end appears that you need some time to heal yourself, and attempt to recover this marriage, but in a way that does not expect intimacy from you. And deut needs to do much work with regards to fidelity in this marriage---without regard to his needs for sex. I wonder how the two of you would do if you could stick to a plan for the rest of this year in which you cared for the kids, cared for each other, and maintained fidelity (sexual and otherwise) in this relationship for the period. I wonder how you'd feel about the family, and about your life together. It's not an insurmountable task---but it'd take work and dedication...

You asked:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />did your W ever recover her sexual health?...<hr /></blockquote>The answer is, to date, no. And I think you nicely illustrated this with this:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />, I really don't care if I am ever intimate physically again...there are other means and other forms of it for me to search out...sex is ruined....its cheap, dirty and just unattractive to me now...look at what it gets us...look what happens if you are a slave to it....<hr /></blockquote>This is very much how my wife feels. Now granted, it's for the most part self-inflicted about what she did during the affair that has her feeling the same way as you do---but regardless of how the feelings got there, they take work to deal with.

She's starting to explore avenues to deal with this again (counseling). But this is no excuse for me to go off and have an affair, or run to divorce my wife. My job in the marriage is to meet my wife's needs (to my capabilities), to be honest with her about my needs and how she's doing, and to protect myself from situations that would lead to an affair.

That's what bugs me about deut---he doesn't seem to take the need to protect himself from those situations seriously at all. Like an alcoholic who shouldn't be hanging around bars; deut shouldn't be within 50 yards of available women.

Keeping the two of you in my prayers... I wish I knew how to get you two unstuck and out of this pattern.

Hello K, Dylan and Dewt,

It's been awhile since I have commented on any of Dewt's posts, the reasons being 2fold...

I stopped post to him
1) Because (as you posted K, he just doesn't get it ... talk the talk - yes but following through??? not a chance. I do believe he felt he was doing a fairly good Plan A, however, how can you truely be in Plan A when you are following your libido and pointing fingers .... like it's been said before he just doesn't get it.

and
2) Not sure if you recall, but he mentioned reading some letters from a long time MBer, while reading through Dylan's email ... well I was pretty certain it was me. I wrote to her at length about his marriage sabatoging actions while he knew full well what the outcome would be and challanged her to look at those actions for what they were. I felt there was no real reason to post to him because he would take anything that I might say as worth a grain of salt and didn't want to deter from some of the advice that was given that was similar to what I would have posted. (make sense at all???)

That being said, I would have to agree with pretty much everything K has said in regards to the relationship - or lack thereof at hand. However, I honestly believe that for both of these wonderful and dear people that MC would be pointless at this time. They are both carrying so much hurt and emotional baggage from childhood, teen years, young adulthood and their marriage that I would recommend individual counselling first and foremost to deal with their own stuff before either of them are ready for any type of relationship - with each other or otherwise. I have stated this to Dewt in posts and spoken to Dylan about this as well.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents for what it's worth ...

Love and prayers to all

Nicole

it isn't really all that fixable....

maybe life is just a rock song...this one being Nickelback's "Someday"...

"someday, somehow, gonna make it alright, but not right now..."

there are no 3 point plans for a situation like this...

there is nothing for a situation like this...

I am however happy to hear your wife is in counseling, and hope to follow in her footsteps shortly...

and no, Dewt does not protect himself...and I can no longer play the role of protectress...

and I'll say thank you for the prayers and ask that you keep them coming....even a restructured relationship can use prayers...

lord knows, we definately need them...

much love to you, K and to your wife...

Nicole...hey you....

you're right.

counseling....for us as people...not as a couple...I believe both of us could only benefit from it..

I said that i truly believe that we are no use to each other in our present damaged states...let alone inviting other people into our lives...the issues run long and deep....for both of us...how right you are...

so MC would be pointless, and I do not forsee a long future in posting here to Marriage BUILDERS...sigh...I do indeed wish it were for the right reasons...don't think I have no regrets...my gosh...that list is probably as long as my list of resentments...therapy will help...

I have the bizarre experience of sitting here, posting to MB, and Dewt has just left, showered and smelling all pretty, for his evening out at the bars....

LOL

this is soooo weird....I'm posting to a marriage building site while he is out on the town...I, who's choice ended the marriage...he, who held tenaciously on......the irony will someday strike me as humorous, I'm sure....

have I mentioned how weird this is?

I told him to be careful, and he promised to take a cab if too inebriated to drive...

I understand the "I just got divorced...need a beer and some company" mentality...I worked in a bar long enough to see it nightly...

eek!!!!

why do I feel like a mom whose teenager just went out?...

Dewt, be safe, be careful, have fun...

goodnight, I have an ear infection, am in tremendous pain, and am calling it a night...

unlike a mom whose teenager just went out, I will not be waiting up, worriedly....
Dylan

[ August 07, 2004, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]

You know, my mother used to play this game with me - if you keep your room clean for a month - perfectly clean, then you can go to a friend's house. One day of negligence after 28 days of perfection and the calendar starts over.

Then the game shifted to a shorter period of time with the whole house being immaculate. Keep the house clean for a week, then you can play.

She played it with my brother to get him to stop smoking. Six months clean and I'll let you buy a Mach I.

None of us ever succeeded at that game. Instead, I went through my entire childhood without being able to go to a friend's house, or to have a friend come over to my house.

My sister found a way to break the rules - have her friends join the 4-H club, then they'd get to come over for meetings, and if they played after, no problemo!

Whatever. Games that rob you of hope in a positive outcome are viscous little games that have only the ability to suck the success-abilities out of a person.

This is what you have done to Dewt.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by soulloss:
well, yes...and watching this over the past months does not allow for many love units to be deposited...JUST AS my fence sitting and keeping him in limbo did nothing to increase the units I was depositing....

I guess I expected better, or just different....I was the wayward...it was expected that I would be in a "fog", that I would fence sit...these are earmarked qualities in a WS....

I think I hoped for better behaviour from Dewt....even if I was embroiled in my fence-sitting....

even without a plan for recovery, I felt we both understood that the no-dating and celibate aspect was the only way to go without "rocking the boat"....giving us both the time required to heal, and be able to pursue romantic entanglements when healed, whole and able to contribute something positive in a relationship...even if the relationships were not with each other...
<hr /></blockquote>where have I read that you were celebate during this time. Was this a rule that applied only to Dewt, while you dangled your daliance with another woman in his face????
<blockquote>quote:<hr />

yes, he is unwilling to stick by what we initially discussed...but admittedly because of his weakmness for emotional contact...that it is need to be held, kissed, touched and admired that has him in a mental place where he just wanted to know from me where we really stood, so thaat if he found himself in aposition to accept affection, he would not feel as if he were "betraying" us...

.
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.
.
I am 36, and have not the strngth required anymore to see Dewt through walking and talking his talk...I have watched his attempts and closed my eyes in pain...knowing him to be floundering, and hoping and praying ...but I could not help him..he needed to see where and what his decisions would bring him and then deal with his consequences...I feel like I have been, at times, raising an adolescent for many years....and I needed to invest in "tough love"...well...
.
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.
.
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this disaster is, on BOTH our parts, what we have reaped..I could and perhaps should have spoken more about my intent to come back here, watch him, see if the changes he purported to be making were truly something he was working on, but everytime I'd look, was when he coincidentally would "stumble"......
.
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I remember phone calls in which he promised that he would become the man I needed him to be, .
.
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...then bam...his rollercoaster (that most BS's ride)would kick in, he was left in limbo, succumbed to it, .
.
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then bam...

I have no more faith..

I now believe that all these "stumble" were his own exit moves....
Dylan<hr /></blockquote>Dylan, I know you're saying it's not ALL his fault... But you pretty much do lay it all on him. He was supposed to be Superman while you dangled your contempt for him in his face with this other woman. You pretty much already told him very publically that he had no chance to win your heart. That killed his heart and in his hopelessness turned to the one who hated you beyond all other beings...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />bottomline....I am stubborn ..I cannot forgive the last indiscretion...my affair or not, I cannot forgive intimacy with the antichrist...<hr /></blockquote>All sin is sin. All sin belongs to the antichrist. The antichrist is not embodied in just one person. Your contempt for your husband is anti-christ. His turning to a wicked woman likewise.

Until you see that all sin is sin - and will keep you from the presence of God, you cannot put your sin as "lessor" than his.

Get some therapy, Dylan. Whether or not you ultimately forgive and move on, your children depend upon you being "poison-free". And your stubbornness in this wise will hurt them every bit as much as it will hurt you and Dewt.

“Now a human caught in an impossibility often responds by a retreat from reality: by entry into a world of delusion, or by taking a drink, going off into hysteria, or jumping off a bridge. It all comes to the same thing- a refusal or inability to face the situation squarely.” -Isaac Asimov

The key to my infidelity lies more within this statement than within my libido.

There are a few other things I feel compelled to address and a few other things I’ve just got to get off my chest.

Like for example, how is it that what Dylan posts is perfectly understandable and what I post is pointing fingers? I don’t remember ever placing all of the blame for this situation on Dylan’s shoulders. I do know that some of her actions have hurt me beyond reckoning and that I’ve brought some of that here in an attempt to ‘unload’ it and find some sympathetic support. That’s different than blaming. I challenge anyone to link me to a post where I hold Dylan soley responsible for this situation.

There has been no push or pressure from me to resume intimacy. What I had been wanting is a commitment to take the steps neccesary to save this marriage. A simple statement of, “I want to save this marriage” would have gone a loooooong way. My assumption was that intimacy would follow naturally, in time. Sex is not the be-all end-all of my existence. To be sure it’s important, but there are other things that are much more critical.

K, to address directly some of your statements:

So, you've been together for a month or so---and he's unwilling to stick by the original agreement. The threat he uses is "put out, or I'll see my X for some animal sex, just like a few months ago..."

No, there is no threat, pressure or anything from me to have Dylan “put out”. I do not view sex in that way. In fact, if I feel that my partner is simply ‘putting out’, I lose interest in having sex with that person. What I’ve been wanting from Dylan is a little deeper than that.

The bottom line is that, from your POV, I bet this marriage is recoverable. But Deut has got to back up the talk with real, accountable actions.

Sorry, but recovery is going to take more than this. I accept my share of the responsibility for the state of things, but I don’t accept that everything points back to me. I do not have the fortitude to bear this burden alone. Clearly this has been proven repeatedly.

So Deut---what's it going to be? More talk and self-sabotage??

No more talk. I don’t have it in me anymore. I’m not interested in setting myself up for yet another cataclysmic failure. Better to accept Dylan’s desire to end it and move on.

Your feelings of loathing for him sexually could change---given a strong demonstration of self-control on deut's part…

The 5 years of demonstrating self-control and fidelity did nothing to alter Dylan’s sexual feelings towards me. To be sure she didn’t loathe the thought of my touch, but it’s not like there was any real desire exhibited either. In fact I’d grown to accept that Dylan was just not really like that. ‘Course for two months I got to live through a situation where I witnessed first hand that hunger in her- only it was directed elsewhere. And again, it’s not about the sex, it’s all about what’s behind the sex.

2long,

Communication. Whoop-de-do. What good is it when it’s not ever followed up with actions? I cannot count the conversations we’ve had that seemed awesome at the time and yet never yielded any fruit. As people are so fond of pointing out to me, talk is cheap.

My advice? Work 2gether on this. Stop harping on unmet ENs (the scope of misinterpretation regarding ENs and personal responsibility in these sitches is really starting 2 piss me off). Give a little and meet the other's ENs from time 2 time just because it's the right thing 2 do, and stop fretting over whether some past wrong (recent or ancient, it doesn't matter) is insurmountable or not.

Ka-tching. Thank you.

Orchid,

Dewt, I know you are tired and hurt. Not getting your needs met and being on both sides of the fence is a hard place t/b. You have by your own actions worn out your wife's welcome mat for you. Knowing you can't fix the past, you now are left with your children, someone who is not willing to be your W and your future. Does that sum it up?

Excellently. Only tired is not word. Overwhelmed would be closer to the mark. I have felt that I’ve been facing the impossible. That I’m doomed no matter what I do. I don’t handle no-win situations very well. I think that’s been pretty obvious.

Needs eventually take over if not controlled for the right reasons and abstainance is not always an acceptable option.

Sex is a by-product of my needs. Not the need itself. If it were just about sex, abstinance would have been a lot more possible for me. But there’s something much much deeper at work here. Something that seems to be a lot stronger than my resolve.

My question to both of you is what are each of you willing to do for your family? Be married or divorce?

I tried, within the limits of my abilities, to fight for the marriage. At this point, I’m willing to give in and give Dylan’s way a shot. I don’t have high hopes for this arrangement either. But after spending a lot of time introspecting while she was away, I have to be straight up honest and admit that I just don’t have the emotional faculties to continue the fight without her fighting by my side. I am not so blind that I cannot see patterns and this one has just worn too thin.

But you can't stay in limbo and expect to keep living as if all is well.

No. You are right. And I refuse to pretend that I can anymore. I’d just be setting myself up for another failure and like most of you I step back, look at myself and shake my head sadly.

Limbo, hopelessness, impossible situations… that is my undoing. Not uncontrollable sexual urges.

Nicole,

I admit I’m upset with you. I called you for help. I know I have trouble ‘getting it’ and was hoping you could help me understand. I was hoping your advice to Dylan would be for her to face these issues with me and find a better way to handle it. Instead, I felt that you were validating her behaviour and shifting all the blame onto me. Your comments about the OP left me feeling quite betrayed. You pointed fingers at me that were outdated, and when I tried to discuss/argue, you said I just didn’t get it and wrote me off. I was wanting support and help and felt instead that you were commiserating with Dylan with regards to what a loser I was rather than encouraging her to meet the situation head on and find a pro-active solution.

And again, if you say that I’ve just been following my libido and pointing fingers, then you don’t understand or maybe I’m just still not getting it. You challenged her to look at my sabotaging actions for what they were. What exactly were they? Do you know?

Lori,

Easy. Well, not that it will make a difference, but I did turn down quite a few opportunities. I was certainly not as easy as I have a history of being. Please nobody jump on me cause I’m not looking for pats on the back. I know and accept that my failures along the way outweigh my successes.

And no, I didn’t do it. I was not as solid as I should have been. I know I need counselling and I have many issues to heal. Perhaps if I did not carry my own scars and if I was not damaged and crippled in the specific ways that I am I would have done much better. I think it’s time for me to accept my limits and not try to take on loads that I’m ill-equipped to handle.

Dylan,

There are many things you posted that I wish to reply to. But I’m going to stop writing now. Please don’t think I’m ignoring stuff you’ve posted.

KaylaAndy,

Whatever. Games that rob you of hope in a positive outcome are viscous little games that have only the ability to suck the success-abilities out of a person.

The word 'game' kinda implies a concious, mean-spirited manipulation. I honestly don't think that is the case here. Not conciously, in any case. And I don't think of Dylan as mean-spirited, either. But the point is still the same, isn't it.

I do feel that way; that had the parameters been different, I would have done a better job of keeping my room clean. A clearer sense of hope for the future would have certainly helped me avoid the feeling of utter hopelessness that drives me to seriously upset the applecart. Thanks for the perspective.

Anyway, gotta go. Thanks everyone for posting. Ciao.

dewt

Dewt & Dylan,

Dewt, thanks for responding.

Of course there are always 2 sides to everything and it must be hard to read both here @ MB, so I
give you both credit for posting.

Even before the both of your posted your last responses, the 1 thing that stood out to me is how young you both are. Yet at this young age (yep, 30ish is young - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), you both sound old and worn. Not a good sign. How are you both going to be when you actually get old? You know you can't bring back your youth, yet u 2 are wearing it out quickly over what? These A's?

I thought you both were smarter than that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Now you both need to look at your babies, know that today is their life, their youth and you are growing out of yours. Make the most of that time because it will never never come back again.

Even if the 2 of you split up and find others, you can never ever replace this time of your lives.

How will your little ones remember their childhood? Their dad with an OW and their mom with another OW? That c/b how your children see it. Want them to have that pix to carry around for life? Where that put them when they reach your age?

Ok, enough of my soapbox talk. I will step down. Just had to say it and hope you each have the stomache enough to digest this mouthful.

For some strange and silly reason, I like the 2 of you. Not sure why. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I want to see succeed as a family (not advocating D or M). Maybe U 2 are just sooo young, I hate to see waste.

Well, maybe this post fell on deaf ears. It has happened before.

Anywhoz, hugz to you all,

L.

dewt:

"2long, Communication. Whoop-de-do. What good is it when it’s not ever followed up with actions?"

It's better than no communication, which is also not followed up by actions. Only, lack of commincation doesn't even give you a clue what the other is thinking.

"I cannot count the conversations we’ve had that seemed awesome at the time and yet never yielded any fruit."

Neither can I. So... ...if there's no "fruit", what is responsible for that? Not communication, I submit. Lack of intent. Communicate about that.

"As people are so fond of pointing out to me, talk is cheap."

And if talk is cheaper than actions, where does lack of communication rank?

""My advice? Work 2gether on this. Stop harping on unmet ENs (the scope of misinterpretation regarding ENs and personal responsibility in these sitches is really starting 2 piss me off). Give a little and meet the other's ENs from time 2 time just because it's the right thing 2 do, and stop fretting over whether some past wrong (recent or ancient, it doesn't matter) is insurmountable or not.""

Ka-tching. Thank you."

You're welcome. I'm done with this mental mas2rbation nonsense. I've got better things 2 do with my time.

-ol' 2long

[ August 07, 2004, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]

Orchid, thanks so much for your kind words. Wise too. I have been keeping up with the thread and wrote out responses. I never clicked send though, because (yes, I do learn) I knew I wasn't 'getting it' and was just reacting. Never a good idea.

'ol 2long,

Y'know what? You're right. Sometimes it's easy to forget the blessings that we do have.

You raise some excellent points. (about the communicating re: lack of intent)

And also please understand that while I've been hurt pretty bad by all this and the before, to me there is nothing insurmountable about the past. It's the past. Not meaning that it should be forgotten or ignored... more like what's done cannot be undone but the future is yet unwritten and where should we focus our energies?

In an odd twist, I kinda have to take that philosophy to heart now that we're 'done' as well.

dewt

Dewt,

If you have the strength and time, please read the following link and look up the references provided by Whaler. I think in addition to MB, these are insightful.

Whaler's post

Hope this helps.

L.

Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

All of this just makes me incredibly sad. I will be the first to admit that I am extremely biased in this situation. Dylan and I have been friends for almost five years now, brought together by the common tragedy of unfaithful husbands. Sometimes we did nothing more than commiserate, sometimes we held each other up, sometimes we pulled each other through. She is one of the very few people who really knew what I was going through, who understood how hard this is.

One of the most difficult parts was actually getting better, but knowing that Dylan wasn't. Dylan never recovered. Partly because her needs weren't being met, and partly because there were so many other problems to deal with that recovering from the affair was put on the back burner. I probably wasn't as good of a friend as I should have been and could have been.

God knows I am not the poster child for recovery. There are days, even after all these years, when I think this is just more than I can bear. And I'm certainly not the MB expert that K is. But I do know this much. In all the years that I have been an MB member, I've never known of anyone posting more than a few times who had actually given up on their marriage. Even on the Divorce board the members are still trying to learn and make the best of every situation.

I believe that Dylan and Dewt both have hopes and dreams for their relationship. They are both feeling tired, hopeless, maybe even defeated. The task seems insurmountable, and they don't feel up to the challenge. As a Christian, I know that all things are possible, but I also know that God expects up to do our part of the work. And the amount of work in recovering a marriage is huge in any case, much more so in this one. I doubt it can be done without total committments from both of them, and maybe not even then.

If they decide to try to salvage their relationship, I will do what I can to help. If they decide to alter their relationship to be co-parents and nothing more, I will be supportive. If they decide to continue on their present course, I will tell them that I think they are wrong. I will continue to love them and pray for them no matter what. And I will always be a friend to both, though will always have a closer relationship with Dylan.

It's really up the them, isn't it?

Peppermint

Orchid...what "behaviour" specifically are you referring to?.....how am I using my children to bring more hurt to their dad??

I am not being obtuse on purpose...I just don't understand...

there is no limbo...Dewt wanted a definitive answer from me...he gave me time to think aobut my answer, then on tuesday, we talked, the contents of which are divulged in the prior posts...but the gist of it is that Dewt can live what life he pleases ..we have discussed boundries and rules, have reached agreement, and know we will have to finetune..

really, the point is moot now....truly...I had a flutter in my gut earlier today...and asked Dewt outright if he was seeing someone and he answered "maybe"...

he met her on friday night, went out again saturday, and has gone out for a few hours this evening....

the point is now moot.

all points really, are moot...

it's all about adjusting....

and breathing....

and smiling up at god when you hear the words "you reap what you sow" in the back of your head.

Dewt is dating..

the point is moot.

I am human, and contrary to what Dewt has stated here on MB, am not completely heartless...I obviously will have some adjusting to do...no one said it would be easy.....

and if anything ever became serious in terms of a relationship for dewt, well, that would have to be addressed then...

if dewt has the opportunity to be really happy, I love him enough to not be a hinderence...I would gracefully "exit" the scene...the details of mini-dewt et al being the only point of discussion....that's why this is so sad for those that know us...there is a huge amount of love there...tarnished and buried, but it's there...it will always be there...

I just hope he's safe...I worry for him..he rushing...he is not a bar guy...I believe he stated that here on many of his posts...well, now he is...I understand his need for social interaction..

hell, I went from being a bartender to living in a 3 bedroom box that I rarely leave...

it's all about adjusting....

and I now need to adjust to the fact that Dewt is dating, and that he "may" have met someone he would like to see occasionally....

amazing what can happen to you since Tuesday...

I'm going to head over to the Divorce boards now...

I might not quite be ready to abandon MB yet..

have a good night...

Dylan

[ August 08, 2004, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: soulloss ]

deut:

In regards to the title of this post---you didn't surrender. You quit. Without truly getting into the game. Explain that to your children in 10 years.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I don’t handle no-win situations very well. I think that’s been pretty obvious.<hr /></blockquote>I think what's obvious to me is that you don't handle any situation particularly well.

You're out dating this weekend. That's a super idea. Very mature and responsible.

K, what else was he to do?....

you've read his postings, perhaps have an idea as to the intensity of his "needs" as well as the intensity of his "hopelessness"...

he himself in his first posting here, 11 days after he left me, states that he is already starving for affection...

he has never been alone (girlfriendless)...the space of time between sex with the ex (april 24) and this past weekend, is the LONGEST he has EVER gone without steady or casual female companionship...

as he himself would ask you:

was he expected to sit around this tiny apartment which is one big room and 3 bedrooms, "pining" for me?...having me in his sights, not being able to touch or hug, or have any physical attachment to?...

to Dewt, it may seem very important to "exorcise the ghost of me"...

replacing me in his wants and needs may be the only way for him to do it...

I don't know, maybe I am just trying still after all this, to protect and justify for him....

yes, trying to entice me back to our marriage while satiating his needs and having sex/relationships with different partners was probably not among the best decisions he made in his life, but he did make them, and in all fairness to him, I am the one that is unable to live with him as a wife knowing these scenarios occurred.....

having him state here on Marriage Builders that he is trying to save a marriage, but knowing that unposted, there lies another truth was hurtful...having these sexual weaknesses filled was hurtful...learning about the steady girlfriend from mutual friends was hurtful...having him tell me during the April visit about his one night stand with a lady he met online who wanted just sex (this encounter was in February), that was painful as well...his decision less than 10 days later after my visit, to indulge in sex with the ex (learning about that here, in a post was more traumatic than I can ever explain)...because she wanted him, and by god, when someone sexually/intmately wants Dewt, then he cannot help himself...he responds..the lack of openess and honesty from him during that time (I never learned any of it from his own mouth, so to speak....friends saw the girlfriedns car parked at the hotel they stayed in for a weekend)...all these things led me to experience my own hopelessness...all these things were hurtful....just as my decision to watch from the sidelines to see what behaviour would come from him next, and thusly leaving him in limbo was excrutiatingly hurtful to him....

but he may not know any other way for himself...

before exiting any relationship, Dewt usually has the "new girl" waiting in the wings...that is his pattern...

as he said to me yesterday...at least he has changed that behaviour...to him, this is a positive baby step in his maturing process...this one wasn't waiting in the wings per se, just waiting for friday night...

again, a thank you, for your patience and your perseverance, K...

much of my thoughts are unformed, and as I said in my "conflict about where to post thread"....I will process these and hopefully we can both heal

Dyaln

dewt:

If what Dylan is saying is true, then you really have 2uit, not surrendered (true surrender is a healthy thing 2 do - but you haven't done that).

Why do you keep posting here?

I keep going back 2 what I said earlier about ENs. You are responsible for your own happiness, not dylan. Not your kids. And while you HAVE kids, you are responsible for nur2ring them. That takes precedence over your ENs. You had them, take full responsibility for them and prioritize that properly.

No dating. Don't be a selfish, s2pid, rutting fool.

-ol' 2long

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by soulloss:
 Orchid...what "behaviour" specifically are you referring to?.....how am I using my children to bring more hurt to their dad??

Dylan <hr /></blockquote>Making an observation here but it seems that when Dewt gets his act together (even if for a while), Dylan goes out and trashes her life.
Then the tables turn and Dylan clears from the fog a bit, then Dewt got bezerko.

Seems like the losing end of all this is the kids. They continue to have a single parent family environment. The frustrating part is that 2 bodies continue to bounce in and out of their lives.

Dylan, I hope the above answers your question.
I am not saying just your actions have hurt the children but both you and dewt's actions have hurt the children.

This is a vicious cycle u 2 are running in. The children are in the middle of a cyclone of distrust. Both of your needs and that of your family are not being met.

Since you can't control each other (tho' you should be able to be influential on each other - RH, POJA, etc.), what are you going to do about the part within your control? How will that impact, you, the children, dewt?

BTW, the same question goes for dewt.

I care for you both waaay tooo much and we have never met.

Well, I've read your posts and instead of letting off with a round of insane explanatory arguements I'll quietly admit I have no idea what I'm doing.

I have only the barest of ideas why I'm doing it.

I have a lot to think about.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dewt:
 Well, I've read your posts and instead of letting off with a round of insane explanatory arguements I'll quietly admit I have no idea what I'm doing.

I have only the barest of ideas why I'm doing it.

I have a lot to think about. <hr /></blockquote>Acknowledgement is a start. After you have mulled this over a while, let us know how we can help. U 2 have a lot more support than most do, I hope you both realize it.

For some crazy reason, I see u 2 as a couple of young uns needing reassurance trying desparately but not hard enough. It is a crazy mixed up place to be.

I think you both have a want list too long and a try list too short. I saw another couple do this. Do you remember H2Y and his W? She is the WS who won't give up the abusive OM. When H2Y decided to not wait anymore, he went out and found there were ladies willing to take him as is. Yep, he is not a bad looking guy and welp, women would stand in line. Even in Texas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The point is when this happened, his W came back and posted here @ MB. H2Y has been here for years yet he found himself before square 1. He was tired of trying to make it work and when he gave up, she accused him of not wanting her. Well he probably just couldn't anymore.

I worry about him and his W, there are 2 of his own and 3 step sons affected by their at least 5 year stint of dealing with the A. The prime years of their lives wasted on endless push and pull.

To see that happen again hurts me deeply. Yet my hurt is no where's near what is happening to your children and you both.

I can't even raise the 2x4 to beat you with. I think you'd like it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> This is just not normal.

Dewt, when is your next vacation? How do you plan to spend it?

Dylan when is your next vacation? How do you plan to spend it?

How did you each spend the prior 2 years worth of vacations?

How do you think you s/b spending it?

Please don't blow anymore years. You won't get a 2nd chance. Life is not as forgiving and allowing you to relive your prime years. Take it from someone pushing 50. I keep trying to push it away and it keeps gaining on me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

I am posting my comments regarding the thread started by Dylan here because what I am about to say maybe considered disrespectful judgement to Dylan but I just can't help it. My apologies in advance to dewt if this upsets you. Let me know and I will remove it. Sorry for borrowing your thread.

Dylan, the title on your thread: "Conflict as to where to post...and other stuff.....not for you, Dewt. " This is very disrespectful. While you have the right to post any title within MB guidelines but given the current set of circumstances it does not make you look well. Maybe you don't mean it that way but that is how it appears.

JMHO,
L.

orchid, am replying quickly as I am emtionally drained and just plain done in...

I meant no disrespect to Dewt with that thread title...

none at all..

we agreed to "label" our posts if we did not want the other to read them....

it is my thread on adjusting to Dewt's dating life...some personal thoughts and ruminations...

soemwhere to "dump" it, even unfocused and half-a$$ed...

my "not for you, Dewt" just lets him know that it is a private thread...

I am sorry if you were/are offended...I meant no offense....

Dewt certainly mentioned nothing to me...he seemed fine..

I did try to go change it, but suddenly MB will not let me edit...keeps telling me that it is an administrator or moderators function....

yet I edited it myself this afternoon...

look, the crux of it, no disrespect was intended...none was taken....

Dylan

Dylan,

I appreciate and respect your response. This is good if you 2 can communicate that effect in your thread. Sure wish it c/b expanded. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks for the explanation.
L.

Orchid,

My list had like one item on it...

Dylan's commitment to rebuild us.

That, alone, could have/would have made all the difference in the world to me. Sadly it ain't gonna happen.

I didn't like the 2x4's. They were judgemental when I needed understanding and reassurance and support to get myself on track. They put me into reaction mode when something else could have been more positive.

I have some time off this week. Part of it I will spend dealing with a to-do list that has been neglected too long. Part of it I will spend with Dylan and the kiddos.

There was no disrespect meant or taken by Dylan's thread. I won't deny a burning curiousity to understand her thinking better. So many months/years closed off to her thoughts and feelings... but that's her private stuff and I'm going to respect that.

dewt

another quick note...

where do we see us on vacations?

we've never had one, orchid...not in a decade together...

Dewt's work was seasonal...we spent most winters with never enough $$, and spring, summer and fall was taken up with Dewt's work....

a real vacation??...."vacation" as it is understood by millions??

it has never happened.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />dewt: ...My list had like one item on it...

Dylan's commitment to rebuild us.

That, alone, could have/would have made all the difference in the world to me. Sadly it ain't gonna happen. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Commitment requires cooperation. Not much more to say if that cooperation ain't there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />dewt: didn't like the 2x4's. They were judgemental when I needed understanding and reassurance and support to get myself on track. They put me into reaction mode when something else could have been more positive. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: No one ever does. There is a wise saying that says 'discipline is joyous but grievous but in the end yields peaceable fruit namely righteousness.' Those were what my father would repeat to me when I was a child. So even though I hated getting disciplined, I took it because I knew the ending result.

It works. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />dewt:I have some time off this week. Part of it I will spend dealing with a to-do list that has been neglected too long. Part of it I will spend with Dylan and the kiddos. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: hm.... lack of vacation even in the simplist terms is not healthy for family. Take it from a workaholic. I was ok but H was not. Another reason why he had the A. OW promises wealth, health, $$ and travel. Of course it came with a stinky price tags (her spread legs - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , she even sent a pix of that, now that's a hard visual to get out of my head -gray hairs and all - YUCK).

Back to you situation. Think about local get aways, free and inexpensive places, picnics, walks, doing things together as a family. Simple and sweet. I see you maybe trying this now but if you haven't in the past, it may take a while for the family to get used to it.

My H is now traveling around the country (courier driving cross country) and noticing the beautiful sites. He calls all day and night telling me about what he saw....yea, he used to do that before but NOW he is saying how he wants us to share it with us and wished we c/b there with him. That's a biggie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />dewt: There was no disrespect meant or taken by Dylan's thread. I won't deny a burning curiousity to understand her thinking better. So many months/years closed off to her thoughts and feelings... but that's her private stuff and I'm going to respect that.

dewt <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: This is a good attitude to have. Keep it up. I know Dylan stated the same. Now if u2 could apply the same technique in other parts of your R....maybe????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />dylan: where do we see us on vacations?

we've never had one, orchid...not in a decade together...

Dewt's work was seasonal...we spent most winters with never enough $$, and spring, summer and fall was taken up with Dewt's work....

a real vacation??...."vacation" as it is understood by millions??

it has never happened. <hr /></blockquote>Orchid: I understand and empathize with you on this matter. You know this c/b a reason why there is sooo much harbored anger between the 2 of you, whether you realize it or not. Just a thought. I understand dewt may try to spend some quality family time with you all. This is good news and makes my heart glad.

Amidst all my chores today, I will be thinking of your upcoming family time together. Hope to hear it went well.

Enjoy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

[ August 10, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]

Sorry for my delay in replying.

Orchid, you said, "Commitment requires cooperation. Not much more to say if that cooperation ain't there."

To which I disagree. On these boards, you will find many who uphold their commitments regardless of the co-operation of their WS.

And I, sadly, am not one of them.

K was right. I gave up.

dewt

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dewt:
 Sorry for my delay in replying.

Orchid, you said, "Commitment requires cooperation. Not much more to say if that cooperation ain't there."

To which I disagree. On these boards, you will find many who uphold their commitments regardless of the co-operation of their WS.

And I, sadly, am not one of them.

K was right. I gave up.

dewt <hr /></blockquote>Dewt,

Maybe I need to clarify.... commitment requires cooperation to achieve the best results. When there is commitment by only one spouse, then a solid M recovery can't really happen.

Many come to MB commited to keeping the Ms. Long term, this generally does not last. Even w/o the D, many a BS get tired and plain tuckered out. I know I did.

You say you gave up. What are you willing NOT to give up?

JMHO,
L.

dewt...

are you really going out and seeking other women for socialization and or more??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

also are you going out by your self and drinking to the point that you need to use a cab to get home...

are you really??

why????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARK

oh my gosh......

seeing it stated that way, ark, makes it look worse.....

I should not answer for him, and haven't addressed this thread because I did not want to be accused of "blowing him out of the water" again...I have waited since sunday for him to come and post his new status...our new status...

please understand though....

the cab incident stems from MY asking him on his way out the door last Friday night, knowing he might be drinking, to be careful...that if he found himself inebriated, to make certain he would get a cab and safely home...

this is not something he is doing recreationally every weekend or anything...I would not want you or others to receive the wrong impression.....

as for women and socializing, I will respectfully leave that issue for him to discuss, should he choose to .......

it is still important (as with my earlier response to K), that no one misjudge either...

he is not going out, getting drunk alone and taking cabs home every weekend....

I may be in the wrong for answering a post addressed to him, but since your impression may have come from something I've posted, I feel a need to clarify.....

Dylan

[ August 12, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: soulloss ]

soul-loss

I did NOT judge anything or anyone...

I asked a question to seek information....

seeking clarification and or truth is NOT judging...

God, how I abhore that word and more it's "psycho-babble-biblical warped new definition"....

I asked a question......
a simple question
in which there can be many answers...
I prefer the true one...

ARK

Hi dewt, as I said in Dylan's thread, I haven't been to the board in ages and ages and happened to stop by today and see your posts. I really don't know what to say, except that I'm deeply saddened to see the state of things for you guys. I'll say the same thing I said to Dylan, that it affects me so since the two of you were so important in keeping me sane.

I've read thru both you and Dylan's most recent posts. Even though my first thought is to say "Listen to K!!!", but I do have some recognition of where the two of you are at. Now, it really doesn't matter who slept(or is sleeping) with whom. That's just a symptom of the real problem. I can identify with the feelings you have expressed as well as where Dylan is.

You were right, *all* marriages shouldn't necessarily be saved. Maybe yours is one of those. You have been waiting for a long time and Dylan still confronts horrific demons. It's obvious, however, that at a very deep level, there is still a strong connection and love between you two. You've been thru a lot of tragic and difficult times and this is another of those.

I'm not going to try to tell you what to do. Dylan is in a deep, dark place and desparately needs to start healing. You could continue to stand by to provide support, but this may be in a place only she can find her way out of.

Regardless of the outcome, I am still impressed by the way you two are dealing with each other in this crisis. I don't read hurtful, derogatory comments. I see two people trying to find a way out and save themselves. I wish that you could do that together, but I think I really do, kinda at least, understand where you are both coming from.

with much love, brother,

Orchid, you said, "When there is commitment by only one spouse, then a solid M recovery can't really happen."

Bingo. And for the last who-knows-how-many-years, Dylan and I have been swapping roles in this regard. And recovery hasn't happened.

Tired? I don't know if that is the right word. Hopeless, worn out, despairing... these are closer. I needed to know if there was ever going to be commitment. I'm not stupid. I know my patterns. I'm 34 now, and while not grey and wise, I can still see things coming. And this time, at the very least, I'm going to admit defeat before going out and doing something stupid. No more lofty ideals that I'm going to blow all to hall.

At the very least, this time I'm going to be straight up about it: I can't take it anymore. I can't do it alone anymore. The thought of another half-assed recovery attempt fills me with more overwhelming dread than ending it altogether.

And I have a hole in me that (goes way beyond Dylan) and if I don't patch it, fill it, distract from it, whatever, I will crumble again, fall apart again... and no matter what, THAT will not happen again. No matter what...

What am I not willing to give up? I dunno. I'm not willing to give Dylan up, but I suppose I have no choice. There's lots of things I don't want to give up, but I will have to learn to. What am I not willing to give up. I can tell that's a deep and profound question and one that I will have to think about a great deal more.

Ark, yes. I am dating. (see above paragraphs)

And as for getting home, well, I'm not much of a drinker, so it doesn't take much for me to get to a point where I'll leave my keys in my pocket. Like 2 drinks and I'll refuse to drive, even if I feel 'fine'.

DeWayne,

I personally think that ours is one of the marriages that should be saved. But it ain't gonna happen unless BOTH of us are on the job. I don't have the stregnth, skills, fortitude, self-discipline or will to face this alone.

And ya, there's a deep connection there. And real, deep love. But it's not enough. Not to maintain and heal a marriage. There needs to be more- at the very least a commitment to begin the process.

I wish I had it in me to stand by and be supportive and be firm and resolute in my faith, but I cannot. I'm facing issues that I'm simply (read complicatedly) ill-equipped to handle.

I understand Dylan's position. I'm hurt and desperately saddened that she is 'done' with me, but really and truly I cannot blame her. And ya, there's even some anger, resentment and bitterness in there, but it's hard to go waving those sticks when I had such a hand in developing this situation in the first place.

As to why I'm still posting here, I dunno. Technically, I'm not trying to save our marriage anymore. I guess that also is something I have to think about further.

dewt

BTW, my real name is John. I think dewt is dead.

Dewt (John)

Give up on your marriage if you have to for now, but don't give up on yourself or on Dylan.
(I know that you won't - give up on yourself or her) Maybe the marriage building needs a break for now, and the soul building needs to take precedence for awhile, for you both.

Put the marriage in Gods hands for awhile and see what He does with it.

I really wish you wouldn't date though, that is piling pain on top of pain, and you know it. It is the ABSOLUTE worse thing you could do right now for yourself, for Dylan and for the poor girl who you will drag into this. Don't do that to anyone OK, nuf pain out there already.

Weaver

One last post, deut:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The thought of another half-assed recovery attempt fills me with more overwhelming dread than ending it altogether. <hr /></blockquote>It should. I figure you've got a half-assed one, a few 1/16-assed ones, a couple 0.001-assed ones---but I'd love to see a whole-assed recovery attempt.

This would be done under the counseling of someone who is competent: Harley's or Penny. It would mean both you and Dylan would participate---but the level of participation in meeting each other's needs would probably be pretty low (you'd be undoing the lovebusting behaviors). I still see better than average possibilities for this to succeed IF you attempted it---but I see so much sabotaging behavior from you (dating?? WTF!), and Dylan would have to say "yes" to putting some skin into this too.

The bottom line is that I haven't seen anything but lip service from you. No real concrete action. No establishment of a consistent track record of new marital behavior. This isn't a 2x4---it's my observation of your situation. Honestly, I've never felt that you've really tried---all I hear out of you is excuses.

You aren't my kid, and I'm not talking about cleaning your room. So what's your excuse??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
And whatever it is, it doesn't justify your current path.

dewt...

dating while living with your spouse...
is a hostile act...

It is unfair to your spouse
your children (talk about skewed messages and scaring them)
YOU
and the person/s you date...

I implore you to again ground yourself in Gods Grace and seek peace..

you are orchestrating chaos over which you have total control...

that is not judgement
that is not a 2x4
that is someone begging you to cease such hurtful behavior...

nothing more
nothing less

ark

This will be my 3rd attempt at this post.

I will no longer try to talk talk I can't walk. Everytime I fall apart, or fail, the tattered remains of my true self image get kicked about some more. And ya, I do know I do it to myself. I know. I know. I do get it. I see it. I get it. I know.

And so, why don't I do something about it? Doesn't a person about to commit suicide know it's the wrong thing to do? But ultimately, something is just so overwhelmingly overwhelming that it seems like the only option. Well, I've survived too many horrors to actually attempt terminating my life. But I'm pretty creative and awfully good at pulling other kinds of triggers.

It ends up being me no longer able to 'take it' and in one way or the other doing something extreme and unwise. Anything. Anything at all to stop these feelings. (anything excluding violence, verbal or physical to another person)

Weaver, I don't know what you mean by 'give up'. On me? Well, over the past 7 months I've really started to get some of my shi... stuff together. I know because I won't give up, I will (yes, with the help of much counselling) be whole and healthy and successful and able to deal with adversity in a more stable and proactive manner. And maybe then I can start some healing.

On Dylan? She's intelligent and stubborn. She will find her own clarity and when she's ready, she will act on it. Give up on her? No, but I am not a part of it either. I tried to be... wanted to be... but I'm in no shape to be. Haven't been.

On us? Yes. I've given up. (see below)

K, you would love to see a whole-assed recovery attempt? Ya well, me too. I can't do it alone. And I don't mean to imply that I have been doing it alone. I have tried and proven that I'm quite incapable of doing it alone. Any attempt would have to be by both of us.

I am aware I've given her precious little reason to want to make that attempt. I'm not asking to be excused for my behaviour- regardless of any explanation or reason for it.

On to the dating issue...

Ark, you said, "dating while living with your spouse... is a hostile act..."

Ya I know. I know ALL about that.

But it's over. I've been told to move on. I have a HUGE hole in me and now I know that she's really gone... And if I don't fill it, I'll die. I'll fall apart again... I can't... Without something else to think about, I'll be focused on that wound, staring into it every day. I just can't take that. No way. Not again.

And it's the worst dichotomy... either hurt her or hurt me... and I hate hurting her... I've done enough already...

But I can't live in this 'place' anymore...

John

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ark^^:
dewt...
dating while living with your spouse...
is a hostile act...<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: This is a true statement. Except one crazy thought keeps going through my mind. Did Dylan tell Dewt she was moving back to be in the house for the children but not for him?

Is she really playing the role of a spouse or roommate?

Biblically if she chooses to withhold her marital dues, she is also at fault if he steps out of the M.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ark^^:
dewt...It is unfair to your spouse
your children (talk about skewed messages and scaring them)
YOU
and the person/s you date......<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: The act and consequences are unfair to all, except the one who is suppose to be the spouse but chooses not to be.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />ark^^:
dewt...you are orchestrating chaos over which you have total control...
<hr /></blockquote>Orchid: Ark is correct about this. Dewt, you realize I am NOT sanctioning an A by either you or Dylan. However, I do not believe you are in control of this situation. You need to be but your actions show otherwise. If you are in control and act this way..... well let's just say in other places, there w/b some surgery going on.

JMHO,
L.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Did Dylan tell Dewt she was moving back to be in the house for the children but not for him?
Is she really playing the role of a spouse or roommate?<hr /></blockquote>She was coming back to fill her role as Mother. It was made clear that she was not coming back to work on the marriage.

That being said, I viewed it as an opportunity to 'exhibit solid marital behaviours' and try to show her that I was serious about learning to be a good Husband.

Over the three weeks that she was away, I was assailed by an unending barrage of memories of hurtful things. Not just from the affair, but (as JL pointed out in Jan/Feb and others who know us can attest) also from longer ago.

I don't want to get blasted for whining about unmet needs, but I haven't felt that she's 'wanted' me in so long I can't even remember. And there's a rejection in there that I just can't face anymore.

These feelings snowballed in me while she was away. And going out didn't help. Turning down offers and chances to flirt did not make me feel more powerful, or proud of my behaviour... it made me feel desirable. Feeling desirable spurs me on to try to fill that position. Feeling unwanted makes me feel... er... unwanted and useless and then comes hopelessness and despair.

As for her 'role', well she's taking very good care of us over here. It's a real pleasure having her company. I just need more. (and I'm NOT talking about sex)

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
Biblically if she chooses to withhold her marital dues, she is also at fault if he steps out of the M. <hr /></blockquote>'Fault' could be bounced back and forth between us so much and so fairly that it seems pointless to even go there.

Bottom line: Our marriage is over. It was alive as long as there was someone left who believed in it. But the moment both of us agreed it was over...

That being said, I don't feel like I'm acting in a particularly Christian manner. Adultry is a valid reason to end a marriage but I don't feel like God is particularily impressed with me right now.

Cause this isn't really fair. This is painful for Dylan and I should just take that as a sign and recommit to the marriage. I went this route with Mary though, and don't want a repeat of that.

I told Dylan that if this became too difficult for her that we should talk. I don't want her feeling like she is trapped in this situation. If she outright asked me to stop, I think I would. Even if that request was not tied to a commitment to work on us.

No. I'm definately NOT in control of the situation. I know I'm not thinking clearly or acting sanely. I'm frantically trying to get some sort of something stabilized in my head and heart. I'm trying to get Dylan out of my head and get my focus off her. I have to stop wanting her so bad.

John

Dewt -

You are giving up on yourself, and Dylan - by going to the bar and being with other women to fill the hole inside of you. You both need to take this time to heal yourselves, and Dylan knows this but you are choosing to mask your wounds instead of heal them.

The marriage rebuilding should be put on hold for awhile, until you both come to terms with what you have done to yourselves, to each other and to your marriage. And if you both really want to end the marriage, (which I don't think you do) then do it in the right way. "Earn your way out" as Dr. Phil says, and give Dylan the chance to do that also.

You have always been one of my favorites here, with your sweet kindness and intelligence. But by dating other people and falling into that type of desparation to fill the hole inside of you is very upsetting - to me as well as the other people on this board who care about you, and don't want you to bring any more pain & choas into your life as well as into anyone else's. It just makes no sense Dewt, why you would do this.

deut:

Stop making excuses. Ask Dylan to join you for professional MC.

K, I asked Dylan about MC she said, "sure".

There's more to it than that, but I don't know where to start or what to say once I've started. Still reeling. Still pretty confused. Feel a little more confused by the right things though...

I dunno.

John

Ooops...

(still not used to sharing a computer)

John

<blockquote>quote:<hr />but I don't know where to start<hr /></blockquote>1. 888-639-1639 for appointments
1a. SYMC

There, I made that easy. You guys may both need a ton of IC---but I am a firm believer that you start the marriage counseling FIRST, to stabilize what you have, before you work on yourselves. This is opposite "convential" wisdom around here, but it's what the experts who save marriages recommend.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Still reeling. Still pretty confused.<hr /></blockquote>That's because you're starting off on another relationship, among other issues. Get into either 1 or 1a---and you will begin to sort things out.

I hope the two of you follow through.

Everyone is always telling me... "listen to K, listen to K"...

I totally agree with what you say. MC first so that you can stabilize your relationship while you work on the other issues. I don't know about conventional wisdom, but I do know that without stabilization, I'm doomed, dooomed, doooooomed. Dylan and I did talk some over the weekend, and among the many topics we covered, one of the things said was that she wanted to not be intimite for 2 years. Just in case no-one got the memo, I'm not likely to be able to keep it together for 2 YEARS without having some intimacy in my life. And yes, I'm talking physical intimacy. I can say I will do fine, but we all know that the fog will descend and I will slip and screw things up again.

Do I need to set myself up for failure? Haven't I had enough of that already?

So, I called those refs. The Harley number I couldn't get through to. We are out of the service area for toll free dialing. I did speak with Penny though (in person) for a bit and have her rates. Talk about a super cheery positive personality. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Anyway, the rates are way more than I can comfortably afford. But I'm willing to go for it anyway. The way I look at it, this could be the most important investment of my life and a couple of grand invested to reap 50 yrs of benefits isn't really that bad when you think about it.

Anyway, Dylan isn't keen on the idea. She maintains that she has to sort out other stuff before she even looks at MC.

This is a critical time. Things could go either way right now. And from my point of view, they better go somewhere. I cannot (as I've posted) live indefinitely in this state. I love this woman... and want her in my life... and I wish I could say I'd do anything to make it so, but I have to admit, once and for all, that I'm not capable of doing anything. I'm capable of doing something but I have limitations.

I'll invite Dylan to join this discussion.

John

Deut,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I did speak with Penny though (in person) for a bit and have her rates. Talk about a super cheery positive personality.<hr /></blockquote>Bleech. I hate cheery... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Anyway, the rates are way more than I can comfortably afford. But I'm willing to go for it anyway. The way I look at it, this could be the most important investment of my life and a couple of grand invested to reap 50 yrs of benefits isn't really that bad when you think about it.<hr /></blockquote>Good. The rates are more that I can comfortably afford too---but I've got my wife looking over Penny's stuff as well. It is, as you mention, a long term investment that will yield better than anything else in your life. I can remember when I first showed up here on MB (before forum days), and was complaining because Steve had just raised the rates from $45/session to $60. Hahahahaha. Those were the days.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Anyway, Dylan isn't keen on the idea. She maintains that she has to sort out other stuff before she even looks at MC.<hr /></blockquote>Well, Dylan said "sure", and now what's the deal. I personally don't worry about "keen"---what I about is giving it an honest try; to listen and do the work. If she's willing to do that (with no promises of sex in a week, or anything else that she's scared of); this will have an excellent chance of working. And from how she's posting when you run out to the bars---it's clear that she still cares.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Dylan and I did talk some over the weekend, and among the many topics we covered, one of the things said was that she wanted to not be intimite for 2 years. Just in case no-one got the memo, I'm not likely to be able to keep it together for 2 YEARS without having some intimacy in my life. And yes, I'm talking physical intimacy. <hr /></blockquote>Here's a memo. The things said by people who are coming out of affairs and long-term "bad marriages" do not have much value as accurate predictors of the future. What they accurately reflect is how that person has been feeling over the past few months to the present. Here's the deal, deut: you've hurt Dylan enough for her to say that she can't imagine sex with you for two years (and she probably meant 10). Knowing how you tend to run---she's setting you up for failure, so she won't have to face what she needs to work on (it's always easiest when you have someone to blame this on---as you well know, being an expert in it yourself).

You do the same stuff to her.

I'm telling you (and her) to not worry about the future---to get into counseling with Penny and do the work without worrying about the timeframe. My guess is that when it feels right---you both will start lowering the barriers and begin to meet each other's needs. And that this time frame will be months, not years; although neither one of you can even imagine that this is true.

Both of you need to just do the work. And not run away. Good on you for taking this first step---I'm proud of you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[ August 16, 2004, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: K ]

$45/session. Sheesh. Those were the days...

As for what's the deal... well, I'm not entirely sure. Officially, for now, there is no 'working on our marriage'. I think that should change. Particularily if we want to have any hope at all of saving it. I'm not talking intensive-put-everything-else-on-hold work, but at least a plan and a basic commitment would be a good place to start.

Obviously I cannot force Dylan to make this commitment. I wouldn't force the issue even if I could. She needs to make her own decisions and figure out what is really important to her.

For me, she is the love of my life. The woman of my dreams. I want to be married to her and spend every night for the rest of my life cuddling up in her arms. I'm willing to do a lot of work to make this happen. Like, a lot of work. But I do have my limitations... there is a point where my brain shorts out and chooses the exact wrong thing to do. I'd like to avoid that.

John

deut:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Officially, for now, there is no 'working on our marriage'. <hr /></blockquote>and

<blockquote>quote:<hr />K, I asked Dylan about MC she said, "sure".<hr /></blockquote>OK---I see a bit of a disconnect. I would hazard a guess that Dylan means that she's not going to work on areas of the marriage that are uncomfortable for her (like sex) right now. If that's the case---I'm in complete agreement. I think the two of you should focus on areas where you can make real, substantial progress and not worry about failure. After the last couple years, I think an immediate plan to work on Dylan's lack of libido towards you would be bound to fail. You need to establish some trust back, and she's going to have to learn to let go of some past hurt---but probably in some other areas that she can be more successful in.

Go forward. If Dylan is truly dragging her heels, have her post to me.

No no no... Dylan is not willing to commit to working on the marriage. Sex is a whole 'nuther issue altogether.

But since it's been brought up, I suppose I should get that one clear. I don't expect her to jump on meeting my physical needs right away. Nor do I need/want a time frame for that to happen. In actual fact, the fact that she would need to 'work' on this at all makes me question whether I even have the desire to see us work out at all. My view on sex is that if the other person doesn't really want to do it, then I don't really either. I can masturbate and get about the same amount of satisfaction. Without the dirty feeling of involving another person who really just would rather rather not be intimite with me. I view that as a close step away from rape.

On the other hand, the idea that she's put a two year abstinance clause has me scratching my head and placing bets on how long it's going to be until I crack. I mean, if she finds herself 'in the mood' or otherwise desiring intimacy with me (THAT is my #1 emotional need... NOT the sex itself!) she's going to turn it off?!?!?! It's like, "hey, there's the one thing John has needed/wanted all these years, so lets just make it a rule that it can't happen." Oh yippee. Great idea!

And yeah, an immediate plan to work on Dylan's libido in my direction would fail. Again, that's not really what I'm asking for or looking for. But the idea of deliberately supressing it is just...

Howse this? When I feel wanted, it boosts me up. It makes me want to impress my mate, be better, do better, get more admiration and desirability... when I'm rejected, it makes me not want to give a shi... er... darn. It makes me feel like, "what's the point" and helps amplify the hopeless feeling that's behind my idiotic actions of self destruction. Does that make sense?

With a greater plan in place, these emotions do not rule me quite so overwhelmingly. Without the greater plan, I'm left with only my insecurities, loneliness and need to be wanted. Not happening. Had that for 7 months and look how well I did. So not only is it nigh unbearable for me emotionally, but it's also pointless. Hence, the "I give up" and me accepting Dylan's decision to not try to fix things.

If and when she decides that she would like to make a commitment to fixing us, and be ready to back it up with action (I'm NOT talking sex here) I will happily join in. But without the two of us working on things, it's doomed. I've had enough doom to last a lifetime. And I refuse to be put into situations where I'm guaranteed to fail just so that I can shoulder some more blame and own some more disasters. Got enough of those already.

As for Dylan dragging her heels, well really she's not. Without a commitment or desire to get into recovery, there's nothing to live up to and so by definition, no dragging her heels. I have brought her attention to this post, however and hope that she and thee can spark up a conversation.

John