My WW took her niece to dinner with OM and his daughter tonight. According to car4love, OM said, "All the family is together now."
OM wants to hire a private custody evaluator, whatever that is. Apparently it's very expensive. Car4love says she's finished, does not want OM back any more.
Now, I'm emotional at the moment, so take this all with a grain of salt. But this latest development - it's beyond hurtful. It's almost scary. My intuition tells me these are people I should not let within a mile of me. There's something wicked in all of this, something disturbing, unsettling. I've made no secret that my belief in the world of the supernatural is shaky at best, but do I dare say it feels like something particularly evil is afoot. It almost feels like OM and my WW are being influenced by something outside themselves. It feels, well, creepy. There's something deeply, fundamentally nasty that's happened in the hearts of these people.
I may be agnostic, but I'm going to pray for these people. I'm in a peculiar way afraid for them.
I'm going to plan B immediately, and I expect to be divorced soon.
I have a mother who is untreated bipolar. She says the most horrendous things to me when she is active in her illness that they would make a soldier curl in fear. She lashes out, blames, hurls righteous indignation (and fire and brimstone), threatens, and retaliates. She is very scary because she has followed through on some of her threats and messed up my life and the kids' lives.
Why am I telling you this, you wonder??
Well, I love my mom. I see that she is a woman who is human just like the rest of us, and that she is acting out of a mental illness. I see that she could choose to go to treatment and refuses. I see that she is still valuable and loveable, even if she scares me!
HOWEVER...
...her choices harm me and my family. Her refusal to admit she has a problem place me and my own sanity in jeopardy. Thus, although I love her and see her value, I have to protect myself from the damage that her own denial causes.
It is very much the same with you and sparrow. She is not "evil" or "demon possessed" in that Exorcist kind of way, but she does continue to do what she knows is wrong. She does continue to choose options that put your in harm's way and continue to refuse to see the damage that her own denial is causing. Thus, although you love her and see her value, you do have to protect yourself.
Dear brother, you are also valuable. You are rare and precious, and to allow yourself to be harmed is painful to all of us here. Guard your heart, graycloud, for out of your heart flows the spring of life which will save, recover, and renew so many, many people who read what you write here. You have no idea how many people read here on MB and never register--and from your heart springs a well of life to them!
You are not rejecting your delicate sparrow. You are not saying you do not love her. You are just establishing some safety so she can no longer damage the heart that is so valuable and important. You are guarding yourself and claiming your own worth.
Plan B, my brother. It sounds so isolating and abandoning--but in reality it is a life raft. You asked and hoped and (maybe even) prayed that your sparrow would jump on the raft with you and save herself from drowning, and she refuses. Now, before you also go under, you need to let go of her hand and jump on that raft--and pray that she finds a raft of her own one day.
Yes there is something evil about people who can sit down to dinner and act like they are a family when the little girls mother who is with them is home and shattered. When the little girl's world is being forever altered through her own dad's selfish actions. When the woman sitting at the table has a husband who is home shattered. And this woman is going to step in and take on the role of mother to the little girl and possibly a newborn. Yes there is something very dark and disturbing here.
i haven't said it in awhile but my motto throughout all this has been do what you can, when you can, for as long as you can. that's what you have been doing and continue to do. you don't do anything in haste and that's excellent.this is a sad development but one that maybe needs to happen in order for these alien-abducted, fog-brained WS to wake up. we never know when they will wake up but someday they will realize. now will it be in this life or will it be when they stand before God? only God knows that.
it continues to be all about them (in their minds that is) and everything is "worth" what they are doing to other people in order for them to start their lives together. i think we (generally speaking here) really thought that the OM would have woke up by now, it seemed he was teetering at one point and that the emotions that sparrow seem to display may have solidified that but alas. maybe they were just crocodile tears, that's just about what i think my H's tears are-just fake. he can make himself cry for all the plays he's in why should i be any different. he even told me that "this" was giving him practice at crying. of course it didn't really sink in at the time but now i'm thinking "wow, you are actually admitting that you could be faking crying!" my sympathy well has run dry. i still care for H deeply and don't want any physical harm to come to him. but as you said in one of your other threads that these WS need to hurt emotionally/mentally in order for them to realize what they are doing or have done. imagine the sparrow waking up not too far down the road and realizing what she has done, being an absolute monster in this situation w/what's she's doing to those kids.
they best thing we can do for them is to pray, that's the best thing we can do for anyone. hope you have a Bible but if not get one and read Luke 6: 27,28 okay, since you twisted my arm i'll type it here: Luke 6:26 But I say unto you which hear, love your enemies, do good to them which hate you. 27. Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
as always, continued prayers to you (and car4love), RR
I'm so sorry GC. It IS evil. It's insidious and ugly and horrific....and it'll eat at both of them.....then the evil will spiral out to the kids and the kids will accept/reject the evil, but even if they reject it, they will still be infinitly hurt and confused by it. It will affect their adult lives whether or not they turn out "right." The evil just spirals like a huge rock thrown into a placid lake....the ripples go out and out and out and disturb the reflection till it's no longer a mirror-like surface.
I know. My life, my kids lives are forever marred by this evil. Damage control is all I can do now. Damage control and prayer.
In all our years together, I never imagined us reaching the point where we are today. I love you more than anything else in this world, and I want to remain married to you. I am sorry for the things I did - and did not do - that helped make your infidelity possible. I look forward to a future where the parts of me that made it easier for you to turn away are gone forever.
I have told you I will always be there for you, and that I mean to forgive you. But your affair continues to inflict great pain on me. This pain challenges my ability to forgive you, and will eventually destroy my love for you. I know that you are also hurting and I would give anything to help ease your pain. I truly believe in forgiveness, healing, and redemption for both of us. But to preserve my love, I cannot see or talk to you any longer. If you end your affair and you choose to discuss returning to a life with me, I will welcome the discussion. Until that time, it will not be possible for me to have any contact with you.
Please respect my decision. If you need to communicate with me, please find someone in your family to pass your messages along. If there is anything you still need from the house, have this person contact me, and I will leave the items in the garage for you to pick up. I will continue to cover my part in our shared expenses as I have throughout the summer, and I trust you will do the same.
Sparrow, my wish is for us to create a new relationship, to build a new life where each thing we do, every day of our lives, makes us both happy as it once did. My willingness to do this in the worst of times is part of the promise I made to you ten years ago. And I do still believe in you. But right now, letting you go and distancing myself from your actions is the only way I can protect my heart. I don't do this in anger. I need to restore some normalcy to my life so that I can remain healthy, find some measure of peace, and continue to grow as a human being.
Remember me, I'm the one who loves you.
GC
(edited to change "relationship with OM" to "affair")
GC, My heart is literally in my throat as I think of car4love...you speak of something evil being afoot...there is NOTHING more evil than a man who would leave his wife for selfish reasons and then try to TAKE AWAY her children. This is beyond evil. As a mother myself, I hurt deeply for car4love and what she must be feeling right now. Please pass on to her the message that there is someone who will be thinking of her and praying for her and her dear little ones.
Wow, GC is all i can say and if you don't mind i will be keeping this letter handy to possibly use it for myself.
right now i can't close the lines of communication due to the houseclosing and our household goods stuff. i'm not in the house or even in the same state, so it's not possible to say (generalizing here) "don't speak or see me but i need you to sign this paper saying that you agree to who will take what." it definitely is some control that i'm still trying to have because in all actuality i could do this by mail but it would just be an agreeement between the 2 of us and i don't want him rushing to the house and grabbing all this stuff and i'm not there to witness it. although who knows what if anything he has taken already. does that make sense?
i don't know, it's hard to know what to say or do when nothing "official" has been done.
i have some more questions for you (really to get your opinion) but i won't continue to threadjack and will post those separately.
Everybody, thanks so much. I'm at peace with this decision. I'm prepared for it to be a catalyst for the end of my marriage, and I won't ever let myself take any blame for that.
I have great compassion for these people, but when somebody you've treated with love and kindness refuses to treat you like a human being, or even give you a second's thought while she does you damage, there comes a point where you have to say damn the consequences, back away from her, and surround yourself with the people who love you.
Is there any reason I should run this letter by my lawyer?
RR, I hadn't thought about giving her the letter in person. I don't especially want to wait around for her to gather enough courage to call again and say she wants to come get her dresser.
All this aggressive we're-a-family-now behavior is probably going to continue this weekend, when OM has his daughter for an overnight. I want to cut the rope tying me to this car that's draggin' me, and I want to do it now.
I would let my lawyer know what I was doing and give him a copy of the letter. if nothing else just FYI.
my thoughts are that if you give it to her in person you would be assured that she received the letter. if you mailed it then how do you know if she got it or read it? at least that was a concern of mine with correspondence w/my H and why i asked him to get a PO Box. i couldn't send anything to the house because it's getting forwarded to me and he still has not told me where he is living. if he's not living by himself then who's to say the OW or anybody else would intercept anything he received? i guess ultimately he could give the OW a key to check the PO Box but i'm hoping that he would at least have the dignity not to do that.
so again, my question would be how can you be assured that she receives the letter and reads it if you don't give it to her in person? but then again, do you just stand there and let her read it in front of you, don't know, just some thoughts.....
This morning I was on my way to work, and my cell rang. There is was, the sparrow's number.
She wanted to know when she could come by the house to get things.
I hemmed and hawed a bit, then said why don't you read the letter that's coming to you and then figure out what to do.
She was naturally confused, and so she said, "Can't you just tell me?" So I did.
I plan Bed her over the phone.
She started to cry right away.
She didn't understand. She said, "Who am I supposed to use to communicate with you?"
I said, "I don't know sparrow, isn't it something that you can't think of a single person who will help you?"
She said, "Nobody in my family wants to get in the middle of this."
I said, "I'm sorry, but that's your problem. Find someone."
She said, "Gray, this is really weird."
I said, "Yes, it is weird."
She said, "Can I email you?" I said no.
She said, "Can I just get my things first?" I said no.
She said, "I don't want to have to take you to court to get my things."
I said, "You can have your things. I'll leave them in the garage."
She said, "You need to face reality."
I said, "I am. And I have to remove myself from your chaos."
She said, "What chaos?"
Let me repeat that.
She said, "What chaos?"
Oh my god, I thought. She doesn't understand a thing.
There was of course more to the conversation, but that was the gist of it. At the end, I said, "You find someone." She was crying too much to talk any more and hung up.
That was fantastic Gray - the fact that you could do it in person, over the phone, is just amazing! At this point you just need to focus on your inner peace - and let go of where she's at in her process.
I remember when my FWH and his FOW were planning a wonderful future as a happy blended family with 3 kids each.
The OW was buying both my H and my children. She'd have my then 12 yr old D babysit and pay much more that the going rate. She'd take her to the mall and buy her clothes. She evan let my D to shave her legs for the first time. She was such a cool mom. My son was friends with her son and she'd do similar stuff with him. I felt my family being stolen away. My FWH thought she was a perfect angel whose H didn't appreciate her. She claimed her H was controlling. My H started to tell my I was controlling too. I didn't even understand what that meant. He was obviously making all his own choices in his life.
What a delusion. Reality eventually set it.
I hope that somehow, at some point the Sparrow will see how you can't base future happiness on a shaky foundations of evil actions and other peoples unhappiness.
It is so hard to understand how she can possibly not see how wrong it is that she's been having an A with a man that has a young D and with one the way as well.
It is a shame that she can't see what kind of a man he is that he would do this to his wife. Why can't she see that he is capable of doing the same thing to her down the road. They must think they live in la la land.
Maybe this stuff does work for some people...I don't know. I don't think I could justify all this and live with myself. The guilt would eat me up.
To think he even wants to try to get custody of his D and probably the new born so they can be one happy family.....with a substitute W and mother??? How evil.
Do you know if Sparrow conceive?...if she can't, could that be the possible reason she'd see this as a good thing?
I feel so sorry for car4love.
What do you think it means that Sparrow would cry so much at this point? Isn't this what she'd like...I guess, she just needs her Graycloud fixes.
All I can say is WOW. These WS's do really notice everything and still have feelings. We just assume otherwise. Obviously, even though she in effect Plan B'ed you, in her mind you were always there when she needed you. Now you have changed this and she is scared. Now you can just sit back and wait for the next thing to happen. Stay strong!
Oh GC. My heart's breaking for you and Sparrow. I can only imagine....well, I can more than imagine, but still. The minister I spoke to Friday told me that Jesus' burdens aren't heavy. For us to be in so much pain is not the way it's MEANT to be. For Sparrow to be in so much pain was not MEANT to be. If only the ws could see that....
((((GC)))))
I know you're not overly religous, but the words have the ring of truth, kwim? It's not MEANT to be so hard and hurtful.
Sending you comfort food thru the net. Enchilada casserole.....hope it helps.
How the dynamics change when the dumper becomes the dumpee!
I know you want to save your marriage and I'm sure the reaction from the sparrow lends itself to a sense empowerment and hope when prior you have felt little of either.
I personally think you did the right thing for yourself.
Remember though, once she gathers herself she may strengthen her resolve and little if anything may change. This is now about you.
Don't wait to hear for the next glimpse of the effect of your action. Take stock and decide what direction you want your life to go now. Your music, your career, your hobbies and your relationships with your friends and family. You have given yourself the official physical distance, now give yourself the mental distance.
Remember though, once she gathers herself she may strengthen her resolve and little if anything may change. This is now about you.
I believe this, much as I don't want to. Mentally letting go is going to be the hard part now. And I'm nervous about potential drama to come if the sparrow doesn't get that I mean no contact.
I'm worried she'll use her attorney for communication if she can't find anybody else.
Feel nervous, like before a performance nerves. I guess it's just the little trace of uncertainty about whether this was the right time to do it. But there's no turning back now. The letter is in the mail.
So... if she were to come by unannounced, I guess pleasant and distant is the way to be. Any suggestions there? I just want to be prepared for her to try and break plan B or make a stink about household stuff she wants. She wants to walk around the house and pluck things off the shelves. A few of her things are still around, and so I guess the way to do it is just figure out what she's likely to want that I agree to and start sticking it in the garage.
Pleasant and detached I was told. Don’t initiate or engage in any conversation other than the most superficial pleasantries. Avoid the interaction and figure out how you will handle the inevitable attempts at contact and minimize them.
Moving her stuff to the garage is a good idea. Maybe even getting a friend or family member to drop it off to her or let her know where it is might be in order. Sort of an ounce of prevention kinda thing. You have always waited for her to get her stuff so your plan A can be presented. Showing her that is no longer available may be a positive thing to do.
You will wait for her to call for a while. You will wait and hope she will rush back in tears to a fresh and shiny new Gray ready to dazzle her with your growth and introspection. That may not happen.
Slowly you will realize that you haven’t been waiting for it as much as the week before…or the week before that. You will begin to create a future in your mind and see yourself going through life without the sparrow…and happy.
One day you will also realize that you may actually allow another relationship into your life. You will realize that there are other attractive, charming and intelligent women that also will appreciate the new Gray.
This whole "now the family is 2gether" garbage is so... ...so MONSTROUS, THOUGHTLESS, and INSIDEOUSLY CRUEL treatment of Car4love's daughter...
Look, I'm an atheist, and yet my heart goes out 2 you AND sparrow in all this. I don't believe in "evil" per se, but this is definitely an example of "drama", "negative feedback loop", whatever - negativity building on negativity and consuming the sparrow and OM... It is SO SAD.
Why do people choose this kind of living misery over those that truly love them??? If I knew, I'd be an atheistic saint or something...
I sit here in awe of how you handled the phone convo with sparrow. I don't know what 2 say, just that I hope you know just how much respect I feel for your love for her right now. Few could treat their WS with so much respect in that kind of si2ation. My hat is off 2 you.
Darkness. Loving darkness is what's in order now. I believe there's hope. I've now seen it enough here that I believe it's possible, particularly with someone with such resolve like you've demonstrated.
I send out my utmost respect in 4 directions. -ol' 2long
gray, just wanted to let you know that i read this yesterday but didn't know what to say. i was going to ask if you were going to send the letter anyway but i see that you have. this pretty much means just checks in the mail, no checks in the mail inside cards w/notes, etc. right?
gotta go and hope you have a good weekend despite this new development. it really gets me though how "they" call and throw all our plans out the window, prayers to you, RR
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I may be agnostic, but I'm going to pray for these people. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Someone was listening.
Shul, as I told stillseeking once, I don't like being agnostic. So lots of the time I try not to be. Tricky business, that.
2long, thanks for your words. You're a fine feller, and I'm glad you read my posts.
Well, the first 24 hours of plan B are done. I cried once, a little, but actually it was when I told my IC about some very nice things a friend said to me the other day.
can you afford to rent a storage space and have sparrow's things moved into it? If so, that could be a really detatched way to handle transfer of her belongings.
It would be responsible and considerate as well as legal. And it would support your Plan B.
The info about where things are being stored, plus either the key or the lock combination to the unit, could be mailed to her or delivered (by a professional messenger; I think the fee might be about $35.00 to hire one) to her job.
Bellevue, that's a very good idea. I'm pretty strapped for cash, but I like it. Once I get all her remaining things piled up I'll know how much space I'll need.
Well Gray, mines just about tapped out. Details are in Weaver's OP thread. Like the sparrow, my WW has been introduced to the OM's sons. My children are no doubt next.
I'm completely demoralized. My suggestion. Don't snoop while in plan B. You just might find something.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Had a nice evening at Penny's last night, even though the weather reeked and we stayed inside.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I enjoyed meeting you last night - no advice here on your issue, just still sorry to hear you're hurting. Take care.
Likewise, Deja. I was very nervous as I drove up the driveway. I've never met a group of people who knew so much about be but were in a way strangers also.
I hope Penny has another get-together soon. Best of luck in that house search.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Likewise, Deja. I was very nervous as I drove up the driveway. I've never met a group of people who knew so much about be but were in a way strangers also.
Yeah, me too. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I hope Penny has another get-together soon. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe we should do something over the holidays for all the people who are alone at Christmas. I expect to be on that list, though I sincerely hope I am NOT.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Best of luck in that house search. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, kind of hoping I can't find anything, you know?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Binder, far as I know the only men around here in plan B are you, me, and Ethan. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now why is that? If plan A usually is unsuccessful in getting a WS to return and Plan B is the only other option available, why are men in Plan B so conspicuous in their absence?
Do they get fed up and stop posting?
Are WW more likely to return to the marriage faster? (Stats say no)
I dunno GC. My WW, like yours has not wavered at all in her direction or resolve. I don't know her endgame. He's the regional head of his dept. in his medical field and lives in the same city as his wife and kids 300 km. away from here. He can't move his kids; I sure as heck won't let WW move ours. I foresee a lengthy Plan B. I wish his BS was more receptive to sharing info as Car4love is.
HMMMMMMM, last night’s revelation has me thinking and tied in knots. I don't know their next move. Then again, I might as well not worry about it....that which I cannot change....right??
It's that one of my buddies is chatting amicably with WW regarding her adulterous relationship and her meeting OM's kids that I will have to deal with. I'll have no Switzerland for a friend. You're either with me or against me.
Sorry for monopolizing your journal GC.....I just am having a real ugly time this weekend.
how can we BS move on when our WS won't even file for D? i know i'm not male and not in plan B but just thought i would chime in.
i still maintain that i won't file for D but i'm thinking more now that if H does file then that is it. if we become divorced then that's it. i think that's a pretty clear sign from God and he does allow for D in adultery. i'm thinking that there maybe just too many roadblocks to endure in a R w/my H (post-D).
everyone keeps saying i'm young too and because i don't have kids that may be making things easier. i don't know but i'm pretty much out of love w/my H now and sad to say i'm just waiting for him to file, maybe that's the wrong stance to take but i don't have much sympathy for him and if he wants a D then he has got to file for a D and live w/the fact that it was himself who did it. for my case i don't even see the point in plan B and have changed my mind about even given a letter.
I am glad that you had a good time at the MB party the other night. I think it probably did take a lot of guts to drive down that drive, but guts is one thing you got!
Don't know how to comment on the marital asset agreement, though. I hate to say it is good, and don't know if it is bad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I have a question that's been bugging me for a long time. I would think that a WS who crushes and then divorces her spouse, especially one who in an early attempt to end her A spoke often of "closure", would want to provide some kind of resolution for her BS.
The sparrow and I have had practically no discussion about what's happening or what got us here. During withdrawal we talked some. In those conversations, when she initiated them, she was very inarticulate. I talked about my problems, and asked her to help me with them. That was about it. Since she left, we've spoken very little, and although I have told her a thing or two, there hasn't been much actual R talk. When we have talked, at her most articulate she has said she gradually fell out of love for me, and that's the best she's done.
I know she has tremendous guilt, and that she still thinks highly of me, even though she doesn't mind discarding me and divorcing me. So why has she made no attempt to have any "closure" with me? I would have thought by now that she'd have composed some kind of fog-filled letter at least, but there's been nothing at all.
This M is going to end with things absolutely unadressed and unresolved. Very bothersome, but even more I just find it incredible that she could walk away from our life together without sharing any of her thoughts with me at all. Eleven years together, then yoink! Nothing.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> This M is going to end with things absolutely unadressed and unresolved. Very bothersome, but even more I just find it incredible that she could walk away from our life together without sharing any of her thoughts with me at all. Eleven years together, then yoink! Nothing.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC,
My first marriage ended like this after 10 years. I never did find out what was going on, or why he left. But I don't think he knew either. Not everyone is in touch with him/her self. My first H called me several months later and said he was starting to wonder if his problems were with his job and not his wife after all. I said, gee, so sorry so sad. Too late.
Someone wiser than me told me back then to accept that I will probably never have the answers and have to get on with life anyway. She was right. Good luck - I know you are strong enough to deal with it and you'll get there. And I know it's hard, as I've been there and done that.
My WH is just like Sparrow. All he did was lie to me. I never got any details about the why of the affair from him. He never admitted to anything, never told me when it started, nothing.
However after 22 months of this, I don't really care anymore. They deserve each other. OW's husband has moved on also.
It was a long, horrible struggle, but I am now glad that I did my best. I took my vows seriously, and did believe we were "one flesh", even after he dishonored our marriage.
I think the best thing about the MB program, is you do heal, with or without your partner. My WH is a mess now, hanging out at bars all day, not doing anything. Meanwhile my life is once again wonderful. So hang in there. It is so worthwhile.
Glad that you hooked up with Penny's group. They are experts, and great people to know.
I've been listening to the audiobook version of the Dalai Lama's How to Practice recently. One of the things he says, that I hang on to real tight like, is that in any situation, you should never give up hope.
Easy for me to say. This is the second time for you. Bet this makes you wonder if you can ever make yourself vulnerable again.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Deja, your sig is driving me nuts!
I've been listening to the audiobook version of the Dalai Lama's How to Practice recently. One of the things he says, that I hang on to real tight like, is that in any situation, you should never give up hope.
Easy for me to say. This is the second time for you. Bet this makes you wonder if you can ever make yourself vulnerable again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also believe in not giving up hope - to a fault. I have a personality flaw that makes me stay in situations I shouldn't; give people the benefit of the doubt long after I shouldn't. So, the only way I can move on is to deliberately quit hoping for change. In fact I really do not believe there is hope left for my M, and am quite frankly unsure if I can trust him again. We had some problems a year ago, and he PROMISED he would talk to me if it got to the point that he was thinking of D again. He didn't keep the promise.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So, in what ways did your divorce change you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a fear of abandonment and a feeling of having been not treated fairly. The abandonment goes back long before this though, to my father who left his family behind in Europe when he escaped from a Communist prison to come here. As a child, I did not understand that turning his back on them was a defense mechanism for him to deal with the pain and guilt he had in leaving them behind. As an adult, I know he was on the equivalent of death row and it was leave or die, but to the child I was it seemed like he had abandoned his family.
I also feel like I gave and lost more than I got from the first marriage, and it will likely happen again. I was the one with assets and $, much of which is now gone. In some ways I traded down in my life with each marriage - financially and in other ways. Each time I went back to school to get another degree, a husband left me. The reasons and situations are not the same - but I don't think either one of them could handle my being strong and having a rich life of my own. My first H was threatened by me and my family, and my current H thinks he has been shortchanged in the needs dept because I was busy with my own things. He's partly right - but I also have worked hard to make amends and tried to find out what he needs.
This has been hard to write - hard to dredge up old memories as well as current pains - to say nothing of the border collie pup who, while I've been trying to type this, has removed two keys from my keyboard and dropped his bone on it a few times as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
On another note, I found a house today I like. I said I'd take it, but there is someone in line ahead of me. A single guy with 2 dogs, going through a sudden and unexpected divorce just like me. We'll see which of us needs it worse. I'll know sometime Wednesday. It's 3 miles from work too, compared to almost 20 now and awful traffic.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Deja, your sig is driving me nuts!
I've been listening to the audiobook version of the Dalai Lama's How to Practice recently. One of the things he says, that I hang on to real tight like, is that in any situation, you should never give up hope.
Easy for me to say. This is the second time for you. Bet this makes you wonder if you can ever make yourself vulnerable again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also believe in not giving up hope - to a fault. I have a personality flaw that makes me stay in situations I shouldn't; give people the benefit of the doubt long after I shouldn't. So, the only way I can move on is to deliberately quit hoping for change. In fact I really do not believe there is hope left for my M, and am quite frankly unsure if I can trust him again. We had some problems a year ago, and he PROMISED he would talk to me if it got to the point that he was thinking of D again. He didn't keep the promise.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So, in what ways did your divorce change you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a fear of abandonment and a feeling of having been not treated fairly. The abandonment goes back long before this though, to my father who left his family behind in Europe when he escaped from a Communist prison to come here. As a child, I did not understand that turning his back on them was a defense mechanism for him to deal with the pain and guilt he had in leaving them behind. As an adult, I know he was on the equivalent of death row and it was leave or die, but to the child I was it seemed like he had abandoned his family.
I also feel like I gave and lost more than I got from the first marriage, and it will likely happen again. I was the one with assets and $, much of which is now gone. In some ways I traded down in my life with each marriage - financially and in other ways. Each time I went back to school to get another degree, a husband left me. The reasons and situations are not the same - but I don't think either one of them could handle my being strong and having a rich life of my own. My first H was threatened by me and my family, and my current H thinks he has been shortchanged in the needs dept because I was busy with my own things. He's partly right - but I also have worked hard to make amends and tried to find out what he needs.
This has been hard to write - hard to dredge up old memories as well as current pains - to say nothing of the border collie pup who, while I've been trying to type this, has removed two keys from my keyboard and dropped his bone on it a few times as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
On another note, I found a house today I like. I said I'd take it, but there is someone in line ahead of me. A single guy with 2 dogs, going through a sudden and unexpected divorce just like me. We'll see which of us needs it worse. I'll know sometime Wednesday. It's 3 miles from work too, compared to almost 20 now and awful traffic.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Deja, your sig is driving me nuts!
I've been listening to the audiobook version of the Dalai Lama's How to Practice recently. One of the things he says, that I hang on to real tight like, is that in any situation, you should never give up hope.
Easy for me to say. This is the second time for you. Bet this makes you wonder if you can ever make yourself vulnerable again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also believe in not giving up hope - to a fault. I have a personality flaw that makes me stay in situations I shouldn't; give people the benefit of the doubt long after I shouldn't. So, the only way I can move on is to deliberately quit hoping for change. In fact I really do not believe there is hope left for my M, and am quite frankly unsure if I can trust him again. We had some problems a year ago, and he PROMISED he would talk to me if it got to the point that he was thinking of D again. He didn't keep the promise.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So, in what ways did your divorce change you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have a fear of abandonment and a feeling of having been not treated fairly. The abandonment goes back long before this though, to my father who left his family behind in Europe when he escaped from a Communist prison to come here. As a child, I did not understand that turning his back on them was a defense mechanism for him to deal with the pain and guilt he had in leaving them behind. As an adult, I know he was on the equivalent of death row and it was leave or die, but to the child I was it seemed like he had abandoned his family.
I also feel like I gave and lost more than I got from the first marriage, and it will likely happen again. I was the one with assets and $, much of which is now gone. In some ways I traded down in my life with each marriage - financially and in other ways. Each time I went back to school to get another degree, a husband left me. The reasons and situations are not the same - but I don't think either one of them could handle my being strong and having a rich life of my own. My first H was threatened by me and my family, and my current H thinks he has been shortchanged in the needs dept because I was busy with my own things. He's partly right - but I also have worked hard to make amends and tried to find out what he needs.
This has been hard to write - hard to dredge up old memories as well as current pains - to say nothing of the border collie pup who, while I've been trying to type this, has removed two keys from my keyboard and dropped his bone on it a few times as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
On another note, I found a house today I like. I said I'd take it, but there is someone in line ahead of me. A single guy with 2 dogs, going through a sudden and unexpected divorce just like me. We'll see which of us needs it worse. I'll know sometime Wednesday. It's 3 miles from work too, compared to almost 20 now and awful traffic.
I would think that a WS who crushes and then divorces her spouse, especially one who in an early attempt to end her A spoke often of "closure", would want to provide some kind of resolution for her BS.
So what you're saying is that you can't understand why the insane isn't acting sane? Why the selfish isn't thinking of anyone but themselves? Why someone who is absolutely and TOTALLY immersed in themselves and their fantasy thoughts doesn't act in a reasonable and rational way?
You're trying to look at this situation as a rational person would. She's not rational at this point. No matter how much she may convince people that she knows what she's doing - she is TOTALLY LOST in the fantasy world she's put together in her head. She's following her emotions and acting on what 'feels' like the thing to do at the time. She can't explain to you what happend - she has absolutely no idea herself. She's filled her head with justifications that are explainable only as far as Mom's explaination of "Because I told you so, that's why". She thinks she knows what she wants, because that choice FEELS better, and she thinks that her reasons are good enough to go ahead with whatever hazy plan she has in her head. But explain it? How? How could she without actually LOOKING DEEP into the reality of the situation. That's not somewhere she can even fathom going - because that wouldn't feel good at all.
She's lost, Gray. She has to find her way back to HERSELF first. Maybe then she can talk about it and make sense.
GC, i would have to agree w/what hopeful said "So what you're saying is that you can't understand why the insane isn't acting sane? Why the selfish isn't thinking of anyone but themselves? Why someone who is absolutely and TOTALLY immersed in themselves and their fantasy thoughts doesn't act in a reasonable and rational way?"
someday i'll stop comparing our situations, but just to remind you that my H did explain everything in a 4 page typed letter that he had overnighted to me back in august. he explained all he did and didn't do and all i did and didn't do and that used up all his love for me and that he is now happy and that things will never change, he can't come back, that all he wants is to be happy and i need to move on, etc. well maybe that was closure or an explanation in his mind but all it said to me was that he was trying to feel better about himself because it certainly has not provided closure for me because he has not filed for D yet.
so again, it doesn't matter if they provide an explanation or not, they are fogged brain, alien abducted, caught up in addiction, irrational people who nothing of what they do or say makes sense to us. i think w/the implementation of plan B you are giving yourself some closure and it eventually it will close for you, regardless what the sparrow does or doesn't do.
That's right, H4F. There I go again, trying to understand the insane.
There's lots to understand. Working to get out of this mess emotionally, trying to have compassion for the sparrow and OM, trying to improve myself, trying to have hope, and doing what I can to make it possible to save my M - all that can confuse a fella.
Sparrow's lawyer has demanded that I respond to her latest offer by 10/25. Who are they to put demands on me? Want to hang a deadline on my head? File it.
(giant vent deleted)
Everybody suffers. My experience does not make me unique or special. The person responsible is somebody who loved me, and that is not unusual either.
My favorite aunt is dying of cancer. She knows it. She does not want to die, and she fights, but I think she believes she's not going to make it. Every day, she faces that reality.
So I'm not going to walk around looking at all the happy people enjoying themselves and grieve for myself, that I'm not one of them. Because most everybody in the world, sometime, is one of us. We're just taking a turn at it.
I will survive this experience. I'm not too old. I'm healthy. I'm improving.
And the world will lay more loss and pain on me again. The next time, I'll be less surprised and offended by its arrival.
Do you happen 2 live in one of the 7 states in the union that still allows "alienation of affection" lawsuits? If so, talk 2 your lawyer about filing one against the OM.
RM lives in one of those states, and I've been very tempted 2 at least threaten him with one! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (we need one of those devil graemlins on here!)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Everybody suffers. My experience does not make me unique or special. The person responsible is somebody who loved me, and that is not unusual either.
So I'm not going to walk around looking at all the happy people enjoying themselves and grieve for myself, that I'm not one of them. Because most everybody in the world, sometime, is one of us. We're just taking a turn at it.
I will survive this experience. I'm not too old. I'm healthy. I'm improving.
And the world will lay more loss and pain on me again. The next time, I'll be less surprised and offended by its arrival.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great attitude! I know you'll make it too.
GC: It was good to meet you Saturday. I was not familiar with your story. I noticed one thing in reading this thread to "catch up". Your WW's question about "Ever?". I think that is why so often a letter is recommended. People frequently hear what they want or need to hear. So, I'm not sure that she really "heard" your condition for re-establishing contact. This is purely conjecture, but if she was in a place where she assumed she would spend the rest of her life with the OM, then she could "hear" what you said as: "I will never have any contact with you again.", even though that is not what you said. She might even leterally remember you saying those words, even if you did not say them. With a letter, the WS can go back and re-read it when they are in a different place, emotionally.
I am not saying this to criticize you - in fact her response may have given you an opportunity to emphasize your position regarding re-establishing contact, something a letter by itself would not allow you to do. It is also possible for a WS to read a letter, mis-remember what it said, and throw it out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .
I have seen a couple of effective Plan B's where there was minimal contact regarding children or household goods, where the WS tried to "engage" the spouse during the required contact. In those cases, the BS re-iterated that they did not want to have ANY discussions about anything other than the required business at hand until contact with the OP was ended. It was a good opportunity to re-inforce that message, but was emotionally costly to the BS - and Plan B is to protect the BS, after all.
Good luck.
There is a good "Separation and Divorce Care" group that meets at our church. I think the next group does not start until January, though. Email me through Penny if you want to know more.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by johnh39: <strong> DV: Have you read what Harley has to say about sacrifice? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, why do you ask? Instead of hijacking this thread, maybe you can answer on my thread on DV forum (about the old neighborhood).
My letter is pretty clear about my conditions, and I sent it on Thursday, the same day I did the telephone plan B. So I think I'm covered there.
So now there's just this rotten business of letting go of my wife. I'm having trouble with the intellectual part, where what she's doing is so senseless and insane that I can't believe she can follow through with it.
I have to believe she will, yet keep hope. That's tricky.
I think I would like to meet with that group at your church, so long as they don't mind that I'm agnostic (unhappily so).
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> I think I would like to meet with that group at your church, so long as they don't mind that I'm agnostic (unhappily so).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FYI - since you are in the TC area like I am, I'll share something I've learned. There are at least two groups I plan in the future to hook up with (but am not ready for now). One is Singles All Together, and they meet on Thursdays in Edina, I think. I was involved with them over 20 years ago, before I met my current H. They are basically a social club, and I had lots of fun (at least back in the good old days).
The other group is actually a 10 week course called "Rebuilding" and it is to help people who are ready to leave the past behind and move on - with help on how to do that in a healthy way. I believe this course (or workshop?) is offered periodically, and I think it is held in the eastern suburbs somewhere.
As I said, I'm not ready yet for either of these, but it makes me feel good to know when I am, I won't be sitting out there all alone with no place to go.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Good luck on the house. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't get it. BUT - I'm looking at another one on Friday that sounds really good. I also have one in the wings that the landlord REALLY wants to rent to me. He has lowered the rent by $300 for me, and offered to install a fence for my dogs. So, that might be an option too. Both are close to work.
Her lawyer has placed a new deadline of 12/1 on me for coming up with some cash I'll have to give the sparrow for a credit card, and demanded that I respond to the latest proposed separation agreement by next Wednesday. I haven't even bothered to call my attorney about it.
Honestly, I'm feeling kind of rebellious about it right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
She hasn't filed, and my attitude is, if you want deadlines, file. Otherwise, I'll respond when I like.
I'll be asking my lawyer's opinion about this next week, but right now, why should I jump through hoops to make my WW's divorce easier?
Another thing - I feel like asking her to take a pregnancy test. I'll have to ask my attorney if this is out of line.
Wow, plan B works. I'm listening to John Coltrane and getting sleepy. I just hope I don't lose my house. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I've been with the sparrow 11 years. I have wedding pictures, hundreds of other photos, letters she wrote me (probably 100 of them), birthday cards...
I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should pack that stuff up with the things I give her. Should I keep it and protect it, or should I let it go?
I suppose I should consider her reaction. She might look at it and be bummed, she might see it as a guilt-trip I'm laying on her.
But mainly I just can't figure out if I want the stuff.
I don't like those attachment to objects, but down the road, will I regret it if I give that stuff up? And if I give it to her, is she crazy enough to throw it away? Could be.
GC...I am not sure I am the best person to give advice since my emotions have been all over the map with my interactions with WH. But I can tell you what I have done and how it was received.
Things I have done since d-day, 5/22/04:
-On our 3 year anniversary, 1 month post d-day, I gave my WH a scrapbook I was preparing for him way before he dropped the bomb on me. This scrapbook included a chronical of every note, poem, card, scrap of paper,journal entries and vows we have shared with each other along with pictures during our 5 year romantic journey together. His response for this gift that took me several weeks to put together, "thanks for the book."
-Wrote him a poem in follow-up to one I had written to him after he proposed to me. This poem was also read at our wedding. No response from him.
-Send him a love note along with a pair of sexy underwear that WH used to "get off" on when I'd wear them. No response from this.
-Countless number of e-mails reminiscing about good times spent together. Little or no response from him.
-Most recently, I packed a box of books which included one of our wedding albums along with other sentimental items from his childhood. No response from this.
I am sure some of this is affecting him somewhat because every human has emotions, including our WS's who are seemingly possessed by the devil. I am not sure how much of this he has allowed to be deposited into his love bank and how much of it he is just ignoring but I felt good giving it to him and have no regrets letting go of it. I figure I want to start on a clean slate if my marriage does not work. I don't want to hold onto memories that ended on a sour note...rather put these thoughts behind and move on with my life if divorce is truly what is meant to be for us (I hope this is not the case though).
Hope this helps a little.
-K
Me: 28 yo FW Him: 30 yo WH Married: 3.5 years His Affair: 4 months last fall, ended 1/04; he dropped bomb and left me 5/04, been separated ever since with minimal contact; he admits to dating, I am NOT. No divorce papers filed thank god.
"I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should pack that stuff up with the things I give her. Should I keep it and protect it, or should I let it go?"
If this were me, I would hate 2 get rid of that stuff, but I would like my W 2 have it 2 think about. Can you make copies and send her the originals?
edited 2 add: And when you send her the originals, let them "just happen" 2 be in one of the boxes. No markings, no special annotations. Let her find them and think they were "just there" with no overt intentions on your part for them being there.
I need to decide whether or not to respond to the latest MTA (marital termination agreement) from the sparrow, and when. Her attorney asked that we give a response by Wednesday (25 Oct.). But since sparrow hasn't actually filed, I don't feel too obligated to accommodate that demand.
Almost two weeks ago (!), when I enacted plan B over the phone, the sparrow said, "I NEED my things!" She doesn't have all that much here anymore, really. A dresser, some books, and collectory stuff like bowls and vases. A few jackets.
I told her, she can come get the remaining stuff whenever she wants, just get her representative to contact me and let me know, and I'll arrange it all in the garage. She didn't know who she could have do this for her. And she did threaten to take me to court to get her things, even though I said she could get them any time, it was just going to have to be arranged without any direct contact between us.
I have not been contacted about any of this stuff that she seemed to so desperately want two weeks ago.
Isn't that interesting? I think she'd rather lose this stuff than deal with this new snag.
Tonight I found I could not access my email. I realized that whoops, the payments for Internet service were on the sparrow's credit card.
So... either she cancelled the payments, or she called and had my password changed and is reading my email.
I should probably not get in too much of a twist about it right now, but it's another discourtesy at least, like when she cancelled our YMCA membership without telling me.
Yuck. She does nothing but hurt me and inconvenience me and shows me not a shred of consideration. This is a person who used to be so moral, and now all she does is create pain.
Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I'm tired and having trouble sleeping. Worried she and OM are rifling through my email. There's six months worth of sent and received messages there. A few vents perhaps, tons of correspondence with car4love, emails to my close friends, everything.
And my provider's phone support is closed for the night.
I shouldn't even care if she reads my email. There's not that much to hide, but I'm sure there's a thing or two in there she could use against me.
I snoozed on this. Should have taken care of it long ago. Stupid, stupid.
I think maybe this calls for an Ambien and I'll have to just deal with it in the morning. Doh.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> I have a question about sentimental objects.
...I have wedding pictures, hundreds of other photos, letters she wrote me, ...birthday cards...
I'm trying to figure out whether or not I should pack that stuff up with the things I give her. Should I keep it and protect it, or should I let it go?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Graycloud,
First, I wanted to tell ya something. I know I don't pop in every day to write to you or give ya support or encouragement, but I want you to know that I do read every day and I pray for you every day. I've been in your shoes, my man. It sucks, loving your spouse and wanting them to choose you--facing a divorce you never wanted because they won't face themselves. I hope from time to time you can look forward to where I am now and think to yourself, "There IS recovery after divorce. I CAN survive this and even THRIVE."
Next, regarding the sentimental memorabilia...speaking from a position of hindsight, I will share with you what I did and what worked and what didn't. I split up "family" photos and stuff 50/50 with my exH. I gave him half and kept half, and he basically had no interest whatsoever. In fact, I think I ended up with some of his grandparents' pictures and when I asked him if he'd like them, he said, "You keep them--you were always into geneology." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Regarding sentimental ITEMS like our wedding invitations, bouquets, honeymoon stuff--I did keep all those items and I put them in a box labeled "Wedding and Honeymoon" and I put them onto a shelf in my closet where I can see them everyday. I chose not to look at them for quite a while after I packed them, because when I packed the box, I looked through it all and sort of said "Goodbye." After about a year (or so) I saw the box every day and knew right where it was, and one day for some reason, I wanted to open it and all the stuff was right there. I think I was ready to open it.
I made the decision NOT to throw the stuff away or give it to my exH because even though it is a painful reminder to me of what I thought our marriage was and what I have lost, it is also a wonderful part of who I am as a woman. I was a wife--and I am now a woman who would choose an intimate, committed relationship. I meant my vows--and I am now a woman who can make and stand by vows. I deeply loved my husband--and I am now a woman who knows what respectful, mature, interdependent love is. I was faithful physically and emotionally--and I am now a celibate (haha) but very monogamous person. I was a little innocent and immature--and I am now a more realistic, mature woman. I made children with this man--and I am now a fortunate mother and hopefully one day a grandmother. I offered to him my youth and beauty as a free gift--and I now have wit and deviousness to offer! haha. It just IS part of who I am now!!!
So I kept my sentimentals. I would suggest that you do too, but you do what is best for you Graycloud. Your heart knows what to do--just do it.
I'm going to keep the stuff for myself. I'm going to keep everything. I'm not going to stash any pictures of the two of us in a box with other stuff, anything like that.
I'm trying to let her go. It's very tough when somebody you love becomes somebody else though. Hard to accept that they have killed the person they once were.
This email stuff is becoming a big problem. I cannot access it, I can't get it moved, nothing. She's changed all the security information. She's effectively stolen my email.
In my situation, what I did with his stuff was significant.
He moved out but left his closet full of clothes and never made any efforts to get the stuff.
It turns out that this was really his way of maintaining a link with me.
I moved the stuff along with me to my new house. The stuff is now in our shared walk-in closet. He brought his new clothes with him when he moved back in.
Remember that WSes are in a fog while in the A. It is like an addictive drunkenness. The remaining, healthy sane part of her might want to continue some hookup with you.
I had my fantasies like you. However, they are probably not reading your E-Mails. Unfortunately, they are still more focused on each other at this point.
Focus on your PLAN B. Wait it out!!! I would avoid discussions about the stuff. It's probably her way of initiating contact with you.
Mimi, I also sort of doubt they're reading my email. I think probably she just had my account deactivated when she changed everything. I realize that she probably keeps her eyes on the prize and thinks about me as little as possible.
This email grab may be a weird attempt to draw me out, but I'll deal with it through my ISP, and I did leave my lawyer a message about it.
My MIL left me a message - the sparrow has asked her to act as the intermediary for my plan B. MIL is not happy to do this. I don't think the sparrow can ask anybody else. In her words, nobody in her family wants to "get in the middle of this".
Whatev. I consider "not getting in the middle" to be a cop-out. But maybe it's their most gentle way of refusing to help her.
Anyway... tough day so far. I feel so sorry for MIL. I can tell from the tone in her voice that she's torn up in a million pieces.
Wow, just got an email from my SIL with the list of stuff the sparrow wants.
I said no to a few items, agreed to a time on Sunday when she can come. Sparrow said she expects everything to be ready and packed, and I said sorry, but I'll pack at my convenience, and whatever isn't there she'll have to come back for.
SIL also sent me a double-secret message that she is putting a letter in the mail for me today, and that she loves me and misses me.
Sparrow's poor family. They're the sweetest people; to be sucked into this mess is so unfair to them.
I'm feeling guilty about my plan B - like I'm forcing some of the horror of this on my in-laws by refusing to communicate with the sparrow.
I'm still P.O.ed about the sparrow stealing my email. I made a stink with my ISP yesterday, and they're supposed to call me back today to try and get it resolved.
Good news - last night I worked on my boat shop in the garage, and the Red Sox won. And despite all yesterday's drama, I fell asleep without drugs.
I'm mighty steamed still, and feel all twisted up inside my guts. The feeling of not wanting to let go of a biiiiig attachment, but you know you have to. I guess that's what they call grief.
My ISP did not call me today. A friend called and said her email to me bounced. So maybe the sparrow just disabled the account. But she may have full access to it. The password has been changed.
At best she's been incredibly rude. At worst, she's violated my privacy, all malicious like.
I haven't sent a message about it through her family, because if all she's done is disabled the account, I don't want to give her any ideas about going in and reading my stuff.
I have not heard from car4love in a while, which is unusual. Especially given the email pinch, and the fact that I've emailed her twice in the last couple of days. My plan B has put a little distance between us, I guess, because I told her I still wanted to be a friend to her but asked her not to tell me about day-to-day events any more.
Today my IC said I'm very good at viewing my emotions objectively.
MIL called me tonight. We talked for about an hour. She's still very upset. She says that she and SFIL can't see any way they'll be able to accept OM in their life.
She said she can't understand the sparrow at all. She tries to talk to her about this, to explain things to her sensibly, to talk about how much she is giving up by ditching me, to talk about how awful it is for her to break up a family, but the sparrow just gets angry and complains, "I thought you wanted me to be happy."
She says she feels like her relationship with the sparrow is damaged permanently. She can't see how she can ever respect OM, etc.
But of course she's also convinced that the sparrow is not going to see things with a clear perspective until her feelings for OM calm down, and by then it will be too late.
Anyway, it was a good conversation. It's nice to know the in-laws are still defending my M, even though it doesn't seem to be doing any good.
OM has already taken a part-time job to help pay for child and spousal support. I think the sparrow is giving him all kinds of money these days.
Sparrow was over to get some stuff out of the garage today. A friend of mine crashed here after last night's Halloween party, and we left to have breakfast. My friend drove, so my car was here at the house when the sparrow came. I've changed my locks, so I'm sure she didn't come in. I made it vague to SIL whether or not I'd be here.
I'm boxing up a little more stuff tonight. When the affair was just getting started, sparrow went to the Book Expo. While there, as she planned to tell me she was leaving me, she got a bunch of free samples of stuff that I'd be interested in. I can't imagine keeping these books, so next time she comes, she'll be getting those back. I don't want her stupid half-a$$ed parting gift.
Bah! Everything continues. Last night, some of my friends were asking me about dating, etc. Suggesting fix-ups, that sort of thing. I told them I want to go out with every attractive single woman they know, but later, next year sometime.
Today when I got home, I was worried that when I looked in the garage to find the sparrow's latest shipment of stuff gone, I'd feel that same old feeling, that terrible wave of grief.
I opened the garage door, and I felt... nothing. Later I was mostly just angry. I cursed her and said defiant things to myself about the next pile of stuff I'll be leaving out there for her.
I saw I Heart Huckabees today, and the movie made me realize I don't want the sparrow any more. Why? Because Naomi Watts is my new girlfriend!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Last night, some of my friends were asking me about dating, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got the same thing from my dearlings at the wedding yesterday. How do you politely say, "I love you more than my luggage, but the mere thought makes me feel like I'm gonna uke on your very nice shoes?" (and waste a very tasty Shiner Bock)
Oh, and my dearest cousin DID buy the shirt for my 4 year old that says, "My mom's tattoos are cooler than your mom's" How funny is that? DS # 1 was jealous!
Today SIL forwarded an email from the sparrow. No big deal, she just wants to know when she can get more stuff.
But it had this breezy greeting, "Hi B-babes!" (SIL's name starts with B). It had a horrible effect on me. This cheerful greeting on an email about clearing the rest of her things out of our house.
I emailed SIL back and asked her to please not forward the sparrow's emails any more.
She said she was sorry, and that she understands.
So now I'm trying to decide on something...
Should I go to all the trouble of getting boxes and packing the sparrow's stuff for her, or should I just pile it in the garage and let her deal with it?
I think I'll just put the stuff out there, and hopefully it won't lead her to have some kind of tantrum and be a bigger jerk about financial agreements, etc.
Suck. Oh well. It's pretty clearly over with - no sign of the sparrow wanting anything but to hurry up and get all this over with.
"Your estranged wife was here a couple of weeks ago and stayed over. I avoided any conversation about your situation. I think she spoke to [my W], but from what [my W] told me she said, most of it sounds to me like bull."
Approaching seven months of fog. No sign of it breaking.
I know it's a piddy-arsed consolation, but Gray, I think you rock more than George Clinton and the P Funk All Stars and if I ever meet Sparrow, I'm gonna take a nail with the word "clue" etched in it and hammer it into her frogged out cabaza.
Sorry baby. I hate their froggieness. It's making me nutso.
I'm tired of being tired and nice and stuff, too. I hate seeing cool and froody people hurting.
This is from the top of my pointed head to the tips of my size 7s (((((((((((((((((((((((((GRAYCLOUD))))))))))))))))
Kimmy, thanks; you got a way of making it more than a piddy-arsed consolation.
My WW is the fog queen of the North. Her mother, sister, and best friends all see it. I don't lay the MB gospel on them and refer to it as "fog", but from what they say... it's thick as the smoke at a Kiss concert.
So... I was reading the XMas ideas thread. I want to give lots of gifts this year, but thanks to the D I'm totally broke. I need an idea or two, maybe some things I can make myself and crank out a hundred of. Maybe food, but something different would be cool.
My only idea so far was to make chicken demi glace, but that might be too weird.
Go buy some nice tins and I'll send you my bourbon ball recipe. It won't even take you an afternoon to make all of em, and hey! The upside is that you get to eat the leftovers (hic)! There's absolutely no baking involved either (which is always a plus)....
I made them for the SO one year. One of the deputies ate 2 and blew a .07 on the breathalizer....OOPS!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Funny thing is, I dropped by the office a couple of days ago and they were already asking when I was gonna make them.....dorks!
YOU MUST BUY A GOOD KENTUCKY BOURBON to use, tho....Canadians are GREAT at maple syrup and candies but KENTUCKY bourbon rocks (that being said by the gal born in KY).
All the angry stuff that you want to send Sparrow's way has to go somewhere else.
You know me, now, and you know that I struggle with my own ugly underside with great regularity.
Join me in the fight, my man. Rant -- and then take your rants apart and WIN at this by doing the right thing (which is different than being nice).
Courtesy in the face of this stuff is more powerful than you would ever imagine, because it puts YOU back in balance. That's good stuff. You do not have to rant like a wild man, even when you want to. The ultimate in self-discipline. Not something I ever really wanted, but I seem to have it in spades anyway.
You're right, J. I've started to let friends and family influence me a little more than I should. Over the months, many of them have encouraged actions that I've judged as snotty, spiteful, and belligerent. I've resisted until now, always telling folks that that kind of behavior only diminishes me.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again for good measure: Gray, you've handled yourself with dignity to spare. I've NO doubt you will continue to do so...
(doesn't hurt to fantisize about not being dignified now and then)
Your behaviour has been a lighthouse for some of us.
well gray the timing couldn't be more apprapo (sp?) i am just back from my trip and i had to deal w/this very thing-what to do w/the stuff. because of what my h has done i do not feel an obligation to share any of the pictures w/him. certainly i would not give any of the wedding stuff or anything else for that matter, it means to much to me. i may not be able to look at it for awhile and someday i may throw all of it away but once you throw it out or give it away, that's it. you can't get it back. when i went to our house the end of june i brought back w/me all our home movies and photo albums, i just didn't feel safe leaving them there.
i was anxious to see what stuff he had taken when i arrived at our house. it was actually kind of surprising to see what things he took and what he didn't, and at times didn't even make sense. i noticed right away a few things that he took that i had wanted and he didn't even bother to ask. now a blender and laundry baskets may not seem like much to some people but it was more of the principle to consider. a few months a go he had asked if he could have this one picture of one of our dogs and i said he could but yet it was still at the house. he did however, take another picture of both the dogs that he did not ask if he could have and it urked me.
so before we were to meet the next day i called and said there was some things that i wanted that he took so he brought them w/him to the resturaunt we met at. he agreed to the division of the household goods that i had proposed. i wanted to be the one that handled everything w/dignitiy and grace and treat my husband better then he treated me. there was a clothes hamper full of dirty items that has been there since i was at our house the end of june. when i emptied it it was full of a bunch of his dirty clothes. so i washed, dried, and folded them and put them in a box a long w/his other stuff.
he had left some stuff that i had given him and i didn't want them back so i packed them in w/the rest of the stuff he left. all my stuff was moved out by last saturday and he was going to pick up his stuff on sunday. i was leaving the area on saturday so we wouldn't have to see each other again. i left a long letter telling him that i changed my mind about the picture that he took and that i wanted him to have it because after all i had the real thing. in actuality what i had thought was that he would have to think about "things" every time he looked at that picture at to me that was "priceless." i also told him that i had packed some other things that he had left or over looked that either i had given him or that were given to him by other people and that i didn't want them back.
so that's it in a large nutshell about the stuff. i know for a fact i still have some stuff that is his and when i come across it again i will send it to him but that's at my pace not his.
gray, it's okay to be where you are "at" i'm sorry that things had to come to the way they are w/my h. but i do not want this and i did not seek this. i'm at a place where i'm detached now and in self-preservation. i actually think my mom who went w/me to our house was more upset then i was. as far as your IL's well i know it's easier said then done but don't feel guilty about going to plan B when it comes to them. it kind of goes back to tension that will inevitibly be caused between the WS/OP and the WS's having to live w/their choices.
Good to hear from you, RR. It sounds like your trip wasn't too horrible.
My in-laws have started being very kind again since plan B. My SIL has exchanged a few good emails with me, and I had a wonderful phone conversation with MIL last Friday.
I don't feel the need to plan B with them. In fact, I'm thinking about sending cards and gifts to the sparrow's aunts and cousins during the holidays. They've always been very good to me, and I want to thank them for welcoming me into their family.
Another of my problems right now is that I'm having a hard time seeing the last 11 years with my W as anything but a waste. I know it's best to remember the good things and leave it at that. Unfortunately, I'm having lots of stupid "western" thoughts, like if I'd known this was going to happen ten years ago, I'd have never married her. Dumb, but irresistable for my American brain.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if I'd known this was going to happen ten years ago, I'd have never married her. Dumb, but irresistable for my American brain. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then I belong in Idiotville. I look at my poor babies and think that if I knew what their dad would do the them, I'd have never had them. My poor kids...they so didn't deserve this.
"they've come all the way out here to make mining claims, to do automobile body work, to gamble, to take pictures, to not have to do laundry, to own a mini-bike, to have their own cb radios and air conditioning, good plumbing for sure, and to sell time/life books and to work in a deli, to have some chili every morning and maybe...maybe to own their own gas stations again and to take drugs and have some crazy sex, but above all, above all to have a fair shake, to get a piece of the rock and a slice of the pie and to spit out the window of your car and not have the wind blow it back in your face."
-Wall of Voodoo "Call of the West"
Okay, so it's a tad off topic! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I figured I could discreetly chime in about the latest MB righteousness war without anything getting started. The ones who've been playing verbal paintball probably won't read the post.
I pounced harshly on a new WS once. I think I apologized for it. But I might have driven that person away, and I'm sorry for that.
I'm glad there are so many people who stayed out of the brawling. Enough said. Yakkity yak.
I'm having a tough time with some mutual friends right now. They want to stay friends with both me and the sparrow, and so in the interest of not "getting in the middle", they are uncomfortable talking with me about my W and her A and its effect on me. But if they're my friends, isn't it fair for me to expect them to show me some support and not make me feel troublesome for talking about my situation?
I haven't tried to conspire with them. I just need them to be my friends. And right now, if you're going to be my friend, unfortunately, you're going to have to suffer through some P&Ming from me now and then.
We do not have "mutual friends", not really..if they are close friends. Mine or his. Lines get drawn in these situations almost unavoidably.
Family too.
Dogs? That's a tough call.
Fish are [censored] and don't love anyone..fortunately they are expendable [and edible <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]
I'd probably gather the real friends close to me..and let the rest drift away as it is their desire, almost certainly, since the two of you are no fun any more.
Noodle, I love these people. I've lost enough. Maybe part of my wish to keep them is another "attachment" I need to free myself of. I'm sick of losing is all.
I understand, but you can't lay claim to what does not belong to you. It is possible that these people meant more to you than you meant to them. I hate to say that, as you are obviously feeling down..but these are fair weather friends..here for the good times..lets ignore the bad. Or they are her friends and just don't want to have to tell you where their loyalty lies. Either way..you can't force them to give unwillingly..I'd seek out the friends who love, support, and are faithfull to you.
similar experience (kind of), i had sent an email to a couple of friends that have had only limited contact w/my H over the years. anyway, i was just giving an update as to what was going on in order to help guide them in their prayers. i wasn't telling them how to pray only that i thought they should know what was going on in order for them to pray for what was on their heart. i did not bash my H or whine, etc. only just reported what was going on. well, one friend who i hadn't even heard from in months and not even that much over the past years starts going off on me and my h basically told me that she could have told me this would have happened a long time ago and that i need to divorce him and get on w/my life. i was really taken back by this. i second guess myself in what i was telling a few friends and even called one of them. i told this other friend about this friend who went off on me and what she thought. my friend (i know confusing huh?) said that if i'm not able to lay down what's on my heart to a friend without getting ripped a new one then they are not really my friend.
i didn't reply right away to the friend who went off on me. only to say that i got the message and wanted to think about what she said and get back to her. well before i had a chance to do that something happened w/my H and i emailed another update to these same friends. well the friend that went off on me come back and says "did you not listen to anything i said?" and goes off on me again. the old me would have went off on her but i decided to be the better person because i could have said the same thing about her current marriage and just wrote back "thanks for her concern and hope the you will still pray for me." ever since then i have not emailed her anything about what's going on.
so that's my take on it, my 2 cents is that it is not an unreasonable expectation to be able to talk to your friends and for them to show genuine support and encouragement given the situation.
I'm all over the map, emotionally. I was in major self-pity for a day - put it on a separate post to keep from clogging this journal with P&Ming.
I still haven't responded to SIL about when the sparrow can come get more of her stuff. I have not had time to pack anything, and I have not been motivated to do it.
Today I did a crazy thing, just to try it on. I checked out women at a dating site. It made me feel lightheaded and sick, then I saw the bio of a woman close to my age, new in town, just moved to the states.
Before you flip out, never mind. Here's what she wrote in her bio.
The most important thing is trust in each other, that has to be built over a certain time. Both have to work on a relationship to let it survive. I would never cheat on anybody!!!
And...
What I've learned from my past relationships: Promises are made quite easily. You need to trust your instincts. There will never be 100% safety. Keep your own live, don't become dependent on each other. You have to be happy with yourself first before you can start to love another person. After a break up you have to be a certain time on your own before you get into the next relationship.
My new girlfriend. Wait, wait. I could never do that to Naomi.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she won't set foot in our house again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">in YOUR house, sweetheart....in YOUR house.
We were at the dump last year, and the sparrow saw an old clawfoot tub sitting there, extremely nasty. Badly painted and full of dirt and guck. She wanted it, said she'd restore it. So we took it, hauled it to the carwash and cleaned it out, best we could. It's sat in the garage ever since.
I've a thought to dump her stuff into that tub and leave it sitting there in the garage with a note attached. "Here you go, darlin'".
Instead of doing that, put the damn thing in your backyard and make a coy pond or a fountain out of it. There is no sense in wasting a claw footed tub....you'd better keep the thing, or I'm coming up there snow or no snow and kicking your [censored].
Spoke with car4love tonight. We hadn't spoken in a while. Much less since my plan B. A few emails, that's all. We don't seem to need each other as much as we did before. She's doing her best approximation of plan B. She only answers emails about her DD, and only sees OM at exchanges, with minimal conversation.
I let her tell me what the affair partners did on Halloween eve. OM and sparrow and the little girl rode up to where OM's family live, and spent the evening with them. Stayed over, all that. Not the first time.
I wish sort of that I didn't know. It did hurt to hear it. Maybe I waited too long for plan B. I don't feel like much of a marriage builder any more, even though I still feel this loss acutely.
The sparrow's family have most of them avoided OM completely. MIL and SFIL want nothing to do with him. So the two spend time with OM's accepting family. They've found a safe place there.
I suppose they figure if they can just ride this out, the rest of the world will grow to accept them and everything will be groovy. I suppose eventually it will, and as long as their consciences can bear it, they'll be fine.
And car4love and I get to start over from scratch.
I have no wise comment to make GC. I follow your story with very update and I * sigh * for you. The resigned sadness permeates your every post. What foul things affairs are.
Thank you Bob. You named my feelings well. I hadn't noticed myself. Got to reluctantly let go, and make a life from the wreckage. I'm no danm good at parties these times.
One of the things that helps the fire to remain lit, in an affair, is opposition. The more opposition, the tighter the two will hold together. It makes it more 'tragic' when the world doesn't support them, and feeds right in to the fantasy. Romeo and Juliet and all that.
So while it's good that her family is voicing their true feelings about the path she's chosen - it also probably helps them to stay together, in a way. I wouldn't ever expect them to love the situation - but I wonder if they didn't concede a little, if it wouldn't help to dowse the flames a little.
H4F, could you email me? The email theft has not been resolved, and I've lost your address. My new email is A BIG DAMN SECRET.
Interesting thought, kill the magic by accommodating the affair.
There's something very weird about this relationship. Car4love and I have a line we use to describe the two of them: "Us, but less." Last night she was telling me about some of OM's interests, and the similarity between us in some of those ways is remarkable.
I was telling car4love about some of the things the sparrow asked me to give her that I thought were strange requests, things I refused to let her have because they have always been more my things than hers, and because they're useful to me and not easily replaced. Each of those requests, when I told car4love about it, she'd say, "Yeah, she wants to give that to OM. He's into such-and-such and would want it for that."
So, I'm getting long-winded here, but it looks like sparrow has not only replaced me with OM, but is actually attempting to give some of my possessions to OM, to encourage him to pursue interests that are common between us. Like she's trying to make him into a copy of me that's just more wimpy and passive.
Okay, now I know I'm in plan B, and I'm not supposed to obsess about these things. It was last night's conversation got me thinking on this, is all.
Who has seen Vertigo?
I wonder if the sparrow will get OM to take guitar lessons.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And car4love and I get to start over from scratch. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nuh-unh. You both are better people now. I know you don't see it as such...but GC, you've GROWN. And you are an even more awesome human being now because of your growth. Sure, none of us wanted to be FORCED to grow like this....but bud, you cannot tell me that you are not a better, kinder, more learned person than you were pre-A....Cause that would be bull-sh*t and I'd call you on it in a heartbeat.
GC, have you packed that stuff yet? For Pete's sake, I know looking at pretty girls is fun (I do it regularly), but please, would you be willing to get off the dating sites and get the stuff packed?
See, I sense a certain amount of wallowing, here. You're feeling sorry for yourself -- and I understand why -- and you're wishing you had a pretty girl to talk to. Or your friends who do not want to hear about your pain anymore. Or sparrow's family.
In other words, you're working on getting your emotional needs filled. Conversation, affection, admiration, all that stuff. It's totally understandable -- and if you continue to go about it in the ways you're currently doing it, well, I suspect it might not work out the way you want it to.
You're looking, in some senses, for a way to fill the hole inside you. I know that hole well. I've sat with my own emptiness more nights than I can count. (And unlike Spider Robinson, who was once employed to guard a hole in the ground, I have not written anything nearly so amazing as Callahan's Crosstime Saloon, which is all about the utter pain of humanity -- and finding a place where it can finally be healed.)
If you eventually find God, He/She/It can fill that hole. If you eventually heal, the hole will close of its own accord. If you eventually reconcile, you will still have to fill the hole (it's not sparrow-sized, though you may think it is). If you don't reconcile, it may actually take less time to fill it.
But be careful while it's there. Spend the MOST time with the friends who don't want to talk about sparrow. Let them help you NOT talk about her, for hours at a time.
Find a way to pay forward the support you've gotten. Give to others the help that's gotten you through the rough times.
Spend time with children -- those of friends or family -- because you can't talk to them about your adult troubles and the child within you needs to go out and play sometimes.
Try to spend at least one hour each and every day engaged in something other than thoughts about sparrow. All these things I've suggested will help you do it. Just keep trying.
GC, had to drop in. Have been an infrequent contributor to MB lately. Well, I have to be honest, I guess I have never really been a "contributor" I have recieved much more than I have ever had to offer the members of this board for the emotionally insane. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> However, I still lurk daily. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
What you say about the Sparrow looking for your interests and pseudo qualities really hits home. I don't know if my own STBX does that as much with the HomeWrecker Steve or not. I do feel I, myself, will be doing it however. The things that are special to me and the things I cherish, the places and activities I've enjoyed, .... Well .... I don't know if I want to give them up. Though admittedly it nauseates me to think of my STBX sharing things that were special between US, with HWSteve.
To answer you from TreeReich's thread. It actually is peaceful. Sometimes to peaceful, but much better. Maybe she feels the same too. However, she still trys to antagonize me on the phone, and keeps putting conditions on me seeing my children.
I try to limit my exposure to her ... just send emails. She says she wants to talk instead of email, but I tell her ... it is too painful to hear her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
But I'm feeling better, gaining back some weight, and having fun most nights.
Thanks for your advice. I'm wallowing a little, but don't get the wrong idea. That one visit to the dating site put me off the whole idea, though I admit I was tempted to chat. And I'm fighting the urge to lay my worries on my friends.
I spend most of my spare time working on the house.
What you said reminded me of a verse from a Woody Guthrie tune Wilco recorded:
All this day long I linger here And on in through the night My greeds, desires, my cravings, hopes My dreams inside me fight My loneliness healed, my emptiness filled I walk above all pain Back to the breast of my woman and child To scatter my seeds again
Pretty, ain't it?
I think the best thing I can do to deal with the hole right now is probably to do something generous. I worked on the election, but with that over, I think I might volunteer at the library or hospital in my neighborhood, maybe see if I can read stories to kids or something.
I swear in the name of all that's holy I'll finish the packing this weekend. The girl has so much stuff, and all of it fragile!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the best thing I can do to deal with the hole right now is probably to do something generous. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's probably colder than a wooly booger up where you are right now, GC, but Habitat for Humanity is one of my favs.
Oh, and a lot of hospitals need "holders" to rock little ones that don't have parents to hold their hands....but that one is a really hard one to do.
Heh heh. I hadn't seen the new cover -- had to look it up on Amazon.com. My copy of that book is so aged and worn that I'm not sure it even has a cover anymore.
And yes, you've hit it exactly right. Go do something for someone. (And if you were a Kerry worker, understand that there's a good bit of grief tied up in that loss, as well, and you may be conflating the two.)
Nio, what's so hard about being a "holder"? Perhaps I'm not understanding the context?
Holders usually hold the little ones (babies) that are terminal, but don't have mommies or daddies there....
My granma in Milwaukee is a holder for AIDS babies.
All babies need to be loved and held - it's just a really hard thing to do when you know they're not long for this world. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think the best thing I can do to deal with the hole right now is probably to do something generous. I worked on the election, but with that over, I think I might volunteer at the library or hospital in my neighborhood, maybe see if I can read stories to kids or something. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC, what a sweet soul you have.
Nursing homes are always a great place to help out too. Nothing better than chit chatting with somebody as adorable as grandma, while respectfully kicking her a$$ in checkers. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Those are good ideas, y'all. Got a volunteer application for the neighborhood hospital. Let's see if that leads to anything.
I'm packing sparrow's stuff tonight. Sorting photos is taking forever!
Here's a funny thing. Years ago, I went to the shoe museum in Toronto - very cool place. Sparrow loves shoes the way lots of women do. So I bought a cool poster with pictures of shoes on it I knew she'd like, secretly built a frame for it, and gave it to her on her birthday. She went wild over it, and always displayed it prominently. Later, on a trip to Toronto, we went to the museum together, so on. And this poster was on the short list of stuff she wants from the house.
Why would she want this poster? It may as well be a picture of me.
Anyway, that's my Friday night. Not the most pleasant evening, but I still have a beer left, and there's good music. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Well, get over on the Iditville thread with the rest of them that don't have a life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
As for all the rest, stop it right now. You all ready have it figured out. You know she wants you but in OM's passive self. She needs to be with someone she perceives as her equal. She thinks you are better than her. She has low self esteem. You see it already Gray. You've answered all you own questions. Once she realizes she had everything she is looking for, except herself, she will get it.
Sorry Gray. I know how much you still hurt, and don't hurt, and want to move on, but the questions keep you hanging on. I know, I've been there with my DD's dad.
Don't worry, be happy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Don't remember if I posted about this before - sparrow was at the Book Expo early in the affair, and she grabbed promo copies of a bunch of books she seemed to have thought I'd like.
I'm not sure, because she never uttered a word about these books, but she left them on a chair when she came by the house to get stuff one day last spring, a couple of days before telling me she wanted a D.
A bunch of free books from a trade show are my "parting gift".
I've packed them with the rest of her books, right on top of the pile. Why shouldn't I let her know that I don't accept her lame gift?
Just pack it up and ship it off, Gray. The important thing is lightening the load, not sending firecrackers back along the energy lines. Keep your energy for yourself. You need it.
i think i said it to you before somewhere but i just put the ball in his court when it came to the stuff. whether he really wanted it or not i packed up a bunch of his stuff that he left. he did over look a bunch of things but i don't know if he left things on purpose. anyway, i left him a note that said these were things that i gave him or that other people had given him (things from my mom) and i wrote that i did not want them back. so he was going to have to make a conscious decision on what to do w/these things. he did take his footlocker that i know had stuff that i had given to him over the years and a picture of me, etc.
our divorce, which is now uncontested by me, is in the process. i had some things that i was holding onto that were his (pictures, clothes,etc.) because i didn't think i would be ready to give them up. but i am so i have started a box and it just doesn't phase me now. there still lots of other things that i am not really sure what to do with that belong to me (stuffed animals, my wedding dress, pictures of us, etc.) but i figure in time it will be easier just to dump it all. i've already taken my wedding ring off.
i don't want to make any of the WS's that are here feel bad then they already do (after all they are here aren't they) but i just really came to the realization that i would never be able to trust him again. he is a very weak and insecure person and because of his interests and pursuits, he would always be making himself vulnerable IMO. i don't want to go through the rest of my life always wondering or having doubt. when you know that things can be better and that there are people out there that you can have an R w/whom you can put all your trust in, it's becomes very liberating to contemplate.
steve harley told me in one of our sessions that a lot of the times that even though the WS realize they made a mistake that because of what they have done they feel obligated to continue on the same path. you yourself have said that once sparrow gets something in her mind she is very determined to follow through with it. maybe that's the case and why even though she is continuing to do what she does, that she doesn't necessarily want it anymore but feels she must do what she is doing to be "happy." and for that she still wants things like the pictures, etc.
i don't know what else to tell you gray but get through each day (sometimes the day seems longer than others) and you will eventually come to a place where you have less questions. does that make sense?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, get over on the Iditville thread with the rest of them that don't have a life
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey! I resemble that remark................grrrr!
I'm okay. Got an email from SIL - sparrow is getting antsy about picking up the rest of her stuff. I told SIL I'd let her know when I'm done. I worked hard on it this weekend, but didn't quite get there. It'll be done this week I reckon.
I got a little jolt when I saw the email from SIL, but not much to it. So much less painful than real contact. Having a go-between is a good thing.
Just choke it up and get it done (the packing of her stuff). that's just the way you have to look at it at this point. that's what someone told me before i left to go to florida, to see my WH, and get my stuff. they said just go down there, get it done, and come back. that's exactly what i did. just do what you can to get it all done this week and that way you won't have to deal with it anymore. you are in control and can choose what you continue to put yourself through. remember plan B is to protect yourself (and you are doing a good job BTW).
i was doing some "cleansing" last night. it's actually kind of silly seeing as how i just had all this stuff moved up here but i am getting rid of a bunch of things. Such as stuffed animals, some of his clothes, pictures, etc. i'm either giving stuff to the good will or sending it back to him. i'm not getting rid of anything that has the both of us in it (videos, pictures, etc.) and i'm not ready to toss out my wedding dress yet. but i must admit it's kind of liberating. the time will come for you and you are not doing anything in haste, which is really imperative in our situations.
maybe if we say enough times that you are a good guy that it will sink in eventually <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> take it easy and prayers to you, RR
I'm going to gulp down the last of this medicine, starting tomorrow.
Last night had band rehearsal, tonight I have a hayride/bonfire thing to celebrate a couple of our pilots being promoted (I work in a gov't lab that analyzes the snow on the ground in the U.S.).
Then I have a four-day weekend. It's going to be way cool having all that time. After sparrow's stuff is gone, I can start getting the house put together the way I want. The chaos of packing up her stuff has left my house in a horrible "divorced guy" clutter, and I can't live that way.
I'm also planning on vacating my upstairs, which will be somewhat involved, but will save on heating costs and make life easier while I'm adding a bathroom up there - getting the house ready to take on a renter.
My thrillin' life - domestic chores and rock and roll.
Sweetie, it's Mi Vida Loco, and it's what you make of it.
I can send you some awesome paint swatches and we can re-vamp your bachelor pad into something to be envious of.................
I will have to add a general disclaimer: I'm very fond of the latin and terra cotta colors, so if you're into lilac (gag) or sky blue, you're sol with me.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Hey Gray, I'm still reading, and still praying. I don't say much as you seem to to have enough (and some of the best) help already.
Have you ever gotten to the point where you understand what taking the high road is doing for you? I don't mean with your head, your head understands. I mean, has it ever filled your heart - the grattitude that you didn't screw up royally like she did?
If it hasn't come yet, it will one of these days. It will wash over you like a hurricane force wind.
I have a great deal of respect for you. More all the time.
I don't know if I feel it. I get plenty of "attaboy"s about it. I guess I don't feel it.
Did you ever read East of Eden? Sometimes I think of myself as Adam Trask (I think that's the character's name). The "fallen", or "C", characters in the last part of the book, Cal and Cathy, complain about him always being right, always being so perfect and decent. Their feelings are treated sympathetically IIRC. He's made into kind of a villain not only for favoring one child over the other, but also for showing so little human weakness that the "C" characters find him analytical, cold, and ultimately unbearable. His percieved perfection and lack of compassion for those who behave disreputably make him difficult to relate to.
Even though it was probably 15 years ago when I read that story, and it was never a favorite, and my memories of the book and movie are mixed up, I think of old Adam Trask and his rotten lettuce all the time.
Pretty much done with sparrow's packing. Today I filled seven boxes with her fragile little trinkets. Buh bye.
I'm gonna let the last of it pile up in a corner until I'm satisfied I've got everything, and that will be that.
I spontaneously sent just one small firecracker. I was cleaning out her desk, and right there on top were a few ads ripped out of old Life magazines, pictures of coffee beans and coffee cups and stuff. The sparrow used to make collages. OM is a big coffee freak. 2+2... those pages were the last thing on the desk, and I crumpled them up and tossed them into the box and taped it shut.
(...let him who is without sin cast the first stone, ect.)
Gray, apart from her search for happiness, has she ever communicated to you her reasons for leaving? I don't mean the guilty fingerpointing stuff, I mean did she give you any clue that she was unhappy before all this?
Because when she leaves him you will need to know so you can work on things with her...
During our false recovery, I got her to talk to me about those things a little. I asked her to help me. But once she started up again with OM, she was just looking for any excuse to leave. We went to a party. Around midnight she said she wanted to leave. I jokingly said, "No way we're leaving this party before 1:00." We left about 15 minutes later. That was the example she used of me being disagreeable the day she left.
I've had to figure most of it out on my own.
I don't think crumpling up those pages was sanctimonious. It was a legitimate protest of her betrayal, and I'm not sorry for doing it.
I hardly ever post on your thread anymore, because of personal feelings I have about what your WW and OM are doing to car4love and her baby and baby to be. But tonight I feel like coming clean.
I believe in the fog but only to a certain extent. Lets face it, we all have opportunities to have an affair, you are a good-looking musician and I know there is no lack of willing females. I too am pretty and have never had a shortage of guys wanting to go out with me, but we've got something inside of us that keeps us from cheating regardless of our needs not being met, or our lonliness.
Now I also believe very much in love and compassion enough so that I am willing to take my BF back after all of his betrayal, because I realize that he has his own demons and path to walk. And that everyone has different weaknesses.
What I can't forgive is two people who put their needs and so called love ahead of a pregnant woman. It makes me sicker than I can say. I went through it when I was pregnant with my first and only, and while I was trying to take care of my alcoholic dad. I was never able to take Paige's dad back because of what I went through during my pregnancy. Lost most of my love for him, and all of my respect. And it is a miracle that I never lost Paige. She could easily have died in my womb because of him and his sleazy affair. But I was bound and determined that she have a dad, so I humiliated myself over and over, even going so far as to go up on stage when he was playing and demand money for her care, as I was very broke back then. She now has a dad but I sacrificed so much for that. And it should not have been that way.
I now work with his ex OW, she is a customs officer and I am a customs broker. I have no hate for her, but I hope someday she gets pregnant, then she will understand what she and he did to me.
My point is Gray, I am so very fond of you. You are a great guy and I no longer wish for you to get back with sparrow. I don't like her, and I hope some day she too is pregnant with her first child and she knows the pain that has been inflicted on car4love and her babies.
Just coming clean because I feel guilty about my absence from your Plan B support and want to support you, I just can't anymore. I feel like a hypocrite between wanting you to be happy and have your WW back and thinking you deserve so much better.
Thanks weaver; I completely understand. My MIL and the sparrow's best friend (who had her first child early this year) are having a tough time - each feels obligated in her own way to preserving her relationship with my W, but they seem offended by her A to a greater extent than many others (though everybody I know is pretty offended by it).
I believe people can be redeemed, and that's what I hope for the sparrow. I don't know if I want her back any more. I'm not sure. It's become one of those situations where the opportunity would have to present itself for me to know.
Plan B is as much a part of my personal healing as it is a measure to save the marriage. It's helping me start to create a life as a single man.
Okay, gotta go. She's coming over, possibly, in under an hour, and I'm gonna be gone. She can't get in the house - garage only.
Thanks again weaver. I'm kind of on board with your way of thinking, you know!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver: <strong> Women betraying other women -
In my opinion has got to be the greatest tragedy there is.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. Why is it so prevalent? Why do so many women get their alleged "self esteem" by luring men away from other women? Men they don't even want, half the time - they just want to see if they can do it.
I don't know why it is so prevalient but I do know that if my daughter or nieces ever go that route, I will be their worst nightmare!
We have a saying in our house "beauty is as beauty does" and my DD gets reminded of it quite often. Hopefully by the time she is a teen and young woman it will be part of who she is.
yep, i grew up with "pretty is as pretty does." yes, i was the one that was faithful but there were still lots of things that i could have done better so i'm really trying to adhere to the sayings of beauty/pretty is as beauty/pretty does.
In my W's case, the biggest thing I have 2 deal with now is the apparent "rebellion" from the role as W and mother being in conflict with her ambitions as an individual. I truly believe that she believe that the OMW was some kind of monster, and that the breakup of the Meat Family (uh oh, I used the name!) had nothing 2 do with the A.
2 this day, she gets upset about discussions on the 2be about marriage and having kids - in direct contradiction 2 her daily interactions with her family - she LOVES our kids.
I keep looking for a breakthrough, and maybe with my recently-acquired "feminine in2ition", I may find one someday.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">they just want to see if they can do it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't really want to TJ your thread, Gray, but Deja - THAT IS IT EXACTLY.
My dwh was told by OW that she didn't want him at that moment (she wanted him to move to SAT so she could "date" him AND her current bf), (AND THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE), but "SHE DIDN'T WANT ME TO HAVE HIM EITHER...." Like, um....I'm the bad plague ridden, morally corrupt one??????
I think I could've liked Sparrow once upon a time. I also think that I could still like her if she allowed herself to comtemplate...and I MEAN CONTEMPLATE, the ugliness and pain she's caused, I don't think - from what you've written of her, GC - that she's done this yet. I think she begins to....then she feels *a little* bad and sad, and switches that part of her brain to off mode. Some people can do that. Some people can keep it up for lifetimes....but I'd bet a shiny red mustang that Sparrow is not one of those people. I'd bet the same mustang that once it does hit, it will debilitate her. I pray she's not burned ALL her bridges when her sparkly fairy tale world turns to bitter ashes that she chokes on.
I also pray that if it happens once your life is on an even keel again, that you'll still be the compassionate caring man we know you are.
Ever see Scrooged? Sparrow was the Claire(I conjecture) that was kind and fun loving and compassionate. GC was her Lumpy when he was funny and didn't have much - they taught each other about love and making much out of silly stuff. OM is Francis Xaiver Cross when he's at the height of his wealth, affluence and power. The ghost of Christmas Future shows Claire as she'd been if she'd stayed with Francis as the horrible rich guy. She'd have been shallow, cold and mean.
I think Sparrow is turning into cold Claire with OM being the cause of her metamorphasis.
Of course, I'm a romantic, and the analogy doesn't exactly fit.....but I hope Lumpy is still there when Bobcat Goldthwait blows the hell out of Francis (not that he does in the movie...but a girl can have a little literary license, right?).
Yeah, Kimmy, the sparrow seems pretty cold and shallow to me too.
So I've been off a few days. Packed sparrow's stuff, put plastic film over my windows (old house), and now I'm starting to move my bedroom down to the 1st floor.
Got an email from car4love - she said that she'd gotten some good news last night, and that it made it hard for her to sleep. She went out of her way to not tell me what it was, so I'm sure it somehow relates to the A or her D.
Offered the sparrow a time when she could come get stuff this week, but she didn't show. What's more, SIL has not returned the email I sent to have her tell the sparrow I want my old email back. Funny... maybe sparrow's out of town.
Soooo... I've almost got my house ready for winter, and I'm starting to make changes that will make it easier for me to keep the house (without having to pay sparrow for the improvements I make). Lots of work ahead.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Soooo... I've almost got my house ready for winter, and I'm starting to make changes that will make it easier for me to keep the house (without having to pay sparrow for the improvements I make). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey Gray,
Is it your wish to keep the house? I thought at one point it was too much work and expense and that maybe you didn't want to keep it. I started out wanting to keep our house, which I soon gave up because of the work and cost... but now that I bought myself a new house I can't tell you how much relief I feel. Our home - where, yes, I am still living for another month until my new house closes - is full of memories for me. Some good and some bad, but I'd rather not deal with them every day.
So, I encourage you to consider all your options and put your sanity and mental health at the top of the priority list.
I do read your posts from time to time, but usually don't have much to offer. Still I feel for you, and wish you the best!
I've always wanted to keep my house. I love this place, and I can make it really great. It is a lot of work, but sparrow and I worked hard to finally have a house of our own. It's become my refuge, and keeping it is important to me. If I get denied for refinancing it, I'll have to live with that, but I'm gonna do everything I can to avoid losing this place.
The other thing - my house is in an excellent neighborhood, but needs much restoration. If I can hang on to it, and do lots of the work myself, it will be a huge asset after a few years.
Funny thing, everyone says how hard it must be to go through this while I'm pregnant. I can't imagine how I would have even gotten through this without my baby. Only 4 weeks to go until I get to met her. I can't wait.
Three weeks ago, the sparrow stole my email. She was here on Halloween to get some stuff from the garage, but I wasn't around at the time.
Since then, there has been nothing. But I'm sure something is coming.
Today I imagined how it will feel every time I have to jump through some hoop that brings the decree a step closer. Then I read lordslady's post and imagined what it will be like when the D is final. It's going to be dreadful, I can imagine the feeling. Not anything a fella can really prepare for, I reckon.
well gray, i have to tell you it can be blissful too. I think it might surprise you how well you might handle it because you've been preparing for it for awhile. that's not to say that you don't want things to turn out differently. but you will come to a place and you will feel peace.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's going to be dreadful, I can imagine the feeling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry to TJ, but I'm gettting those feelings right now in my own life.
(((GC)))
May I ask in general - what happened to kindness? I mean all of it? At the people at the $100 store that you very nicely apologize to for tapping their cart on accident and all you get is a go to he11 look, to the lady that sees you've a handful and trying to get to the elevator, but doesn't have time enough in her schedule to a)hold the door or b) if you made it, you have to ask her if she would please push floor eight....and the response is an angry jab at the button and a sigh that tells you she is very put out by your asking such a tasking favor.
Please and thank you. Please and thank you. Where did they go?
Their absence is not helping to make my ugly feelings do anything but burble to the surface.
I think lots of times, people are so caught up in their own universe that the intrusion of a voice or eye contact from someone who isn't part of that universe is just more than they're prepared to deal with.
It hit me again today - the sparrow's affair and divorce are so uncalled for, so outside the bounds of what's healthy and good and kind, that it seems impossible that she could do it. And yet she can. Sometimes it boggles the mind. Like she dealt with a minor, temporary distance between us by destroying everything.
Analogy: junking your car because it needs an oil change.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that it seems impossible that she could do it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Till almost 2 years ago it was impossible that this could happen to anyone except characters in novellas.
Who told these people that "novellas" are real - that's the way grown ups are supposed to act? Are we few here the only ones that didn't get the memo?
I don't think I have ever posted to you directly, but I have followed your thread, and for what it is worth, I really admire you. You stay strong no matter what, and still manage to keep involved with others on this board. I'm in a different situation than you (you can read more of the gory details if you'd like; I've posted on the recovery section) in that my H isn't leaving, but I am having trouble keeping it together, and am now wallowing in self-pity.
And then I read your thread, and feel ashamed of myself. Thanks for your posts, GC, and I hope your "sparrow" someday realizes what she is losing!
CC
ps I'm a scientist type too ( I think you posted this before?)...although I'm the biologist type. Maybe it's time for me to go back and hide in my lab!
You may have your H around, but that doesn't make recovery easier than being alone. The hope that you can get a better marriage one day is real for you, and that is something, isn't it?
I've said before, I don't know any more if I want to go through that process. I guess that's one small step forward, but it feels like a tragedy to be thinking that way.
From most indications, my wife is so far gone that nothing will save her.
I don't feel sorry for myself tonight, but god, I am so sad.
GC--this is CC here ( I have two login names because I can never find the password for one of them! Absentminded..well, you get the picture). Hope...funny word. I have held on but mine is a recovery(?) that is more like a broken record of promises; promises of NC (which are broken), promises of reengaging in our relationship (broken too). We have two kids under the age of 4, and that may be the glue now that holds us. Hard to tell.
I'm clinging to hope now; it seems to be my only companion here. And I am so sorry you are so sad; from what I have read here, it will get better. I'm sure those seem like empty words, but someone who is giving as much as you do to these boards, and these people, should get something good in return.
At least I hope so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I haven't posted to you very often, but from what I've read of your posts, you seem to be a pretty "together" guy. You've held yourself together well through all this.
I understand the sadness. I have better days and worse days, but there are few days as of yet where my ex doesn't cross my mind. For me it's sort of an emptyness, or an ache in the pit of my stomach, a longing for what what should have, could have been but is now gone.
And although there were a lot of issues in my marriage that probably weren't in yours, I feel like it all blew up and he walked out because of very minor things. His reasoning at the beginning: The kids didn't respect me and the house was a mess. So instead of working with me on what bothered him, he insisted we did not have problems when I sensed we did, and then he found her.
In his case, I don't think the car needed an oil change. I think it was perhaps not quite the model he wanted and it didn't run quite as fast as he wanted. Instead of tuning it up, he traded it in.
I've seen you put yourself down, esp. your looks, but now you have another photo on the photo page... you're a beautiful woman. You just can't see it. I hope your DD is doing okay.
Anyway... my nightly report.
I must be a little stubborn, or off my rocker. I still half expect my W to wake up one day and think, This is insane; what am I doing?
Then I remember when she was in college, the first time around. She'd skip a class. Then she'd feel embarrassed and skip it the next day. After a few days of that, she'd be too ashamed to go back. She'd give up on the course altogether, resign herself to flunking the thing, and when she saw the professor coming her way on the sidewalk, she'd turn and run the other way.
I thought she'd grown out of all that.
But she's made no attempt to reach out to me, not even to make excuses and try to rationalize her way out. Nothing. I've brought this up before. It's a little stupid, because if she left me a letter or something, knowing what was likely to be inside, I'd try to be tough and mail it back unopened. Plus, I told her I'd have nothing to do with her, that I would not see her or talk to her. So what's the point of wondering, right?
I'm five weeks into plan B, and darn it, I'm still halfway expecting to see her car parked by the house when I come over the hill on my way home after work.
I'm listening to the Jayhawks, and it's making me a little touchy-feely. Tomorrow the Green Grass is the greatest record...
I'm okay, I just have a hard time giving up on something I believe in.
Well gray we all believe things. i firmly believe that if it hadn't been for all the thoughts and prayers for me i would not be where i am which right now is a very good place and a place where i didn't expect myself to be at this point. please know that so many people are thinking and praying for you and time can be a real friend.
Tonight I went to a political event, a party at the house of a friend in the neighborhood. There were about 20 people there. Expecting the usual sort of crowd (everybody about 20 years older than me), I grabbed a glass of wine and found a seat on a bench in front of the fireplace. Across from me, on the couch, sat a very nice looking girl about my age. I'd never seen her at one of these.
When the meeting divided up into small groups, we were put in the same one. She talked about what was on her mind, and of course it was exactly the same thing that's bothering me. When I spoke, I saw her nodding enthusiastically in agreement. We made eye contact a few times. Yadda yadda...
When the full group got back together, she moved across the room and sat on the floor in front of me.
Everybody took a break to get more snacks, and afterward she climbed up on the bench and sat next to me. There was a third person on the bench, so we were pretty close together. Felt that attraction...
There was a conference call with the leaders of our outfit, and we muttered a few remarks to each other during all that. Yeah yeah, I flirted a bit. Barely. So little. But yeah, a little.
As the party started to break up, we chatted each other up a little more. Nothing big. She talked about her job (about which my friend, when I told her about it later, said, "Your kinda girl"). She mentioned her upcoming birthday, and how she was going to have a party, and that she was glad she wound up at this particular event.
Yadda yadda yadda.
We left at the same time. Shook hands, said it was real nice to meet you, all that, and went our separate ways.
Okaaaayyyy...little note to self. When I very, very, very first separated from my exH I not only did not have my eye on anyone, I had NO DESIRE to have my eye on anyone!! I really pretty much wanted to be left alone until I felt like looking for someone.
Lo and behold, like you I am only human, and every now and then my head would be turned by someone gorgeous or handsome. Ahhh! That was a little fun! I had forgotten that there are men EVERYWHERE and you don't even have to look for them!
Well whaddya know...I MET a few of these nice-looking men at work, or at a class, or at bowling even! And as I got to know them just on a surface level and got to know a little bit about them, I found that I actually LIKED a few of them and discovered that I had a couple little, mini-crushes! Can you imagine that??? CRUSHES!! Like I'm a high-schooler!!!
But I didn't act on the crushes very much. I realized that mostly these little crushes were my heart's way of flexing it's muscle and practicing. I really wasn't ready to be in a healthy relationship yet, but I was ready to see if I could FEEL anything anymore. (BTW, I was!) I was also ready to see if I still felt sexual attraction or had any desire left in me. (BTW, I did!)
HOWEVER, I could have very easily acted on those little crushes. I was close enough to a few of the guys that I actually did tell them that I had a crush but that I also told them that I did recognize that it was more practice than real feelings. Thankfully the vast majority understood and laughed with me like a friend who knew what I was talking about.
GC, you are still a human, and you are not dead...but I think your heart is practicing. It's sending you a little "zing" that means, "I'm not dead yet!" "I can still feel something!" You are a smart man, GC--I trust ya--and I suspect that deep within yourself, you know that you really aren't ready to be in a healthy relationship with someone.
But by God, it sure is fun to feel that fluttery, blood-rush again...isn't it???
You bet it's fun, CJ. I guess that's my point. It was nice to feel it... to feel a mutual attraction with someone, to have someone maneuver herself closer to me, and just feel that New Thing.
I won't do anything about it, but it made for a very pleasant and interesting evening.
Two years though? Not a chance. I'll be lucky to make it to my deadline.
Well, GC, you are still quite a young whipper-snapper; however, you would be surprised how long it can go sometimes!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
In brief summary, it's been almost 6 years since my ex's big PA, 3 years physically separated, and creeping up on 2 years divorced...and I have just NOW decided that I'm ready to actually be in a healthy relationship. Well...I'm gonna TRY anyway! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I never once dated while I was still married--even when it was only a legal technicality--and to be honest, that is something I'm proud of that brings me a lot of comfort. After the divorce was final, I did go on a few dates but didn't really try very hard to look or be attractive. I don't think my heart was quite in it yet. And then this year...well my divorce is final; my kids are on the right track; my career is on the right track; we have the basics taken care of (home, food, bills); and my heart is starting to feel released from my ex.
If I could be so bold...I suspect you could easily find someone to sleep with. No sweat! Probably tonight if you went to the right parts of town (haha)!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> But to really be ready--to really have gone through your own issues with the divorce--to really feel released--to really have a grip on your NEW life and feel good about it--to really be ready to be a good, equal life partner--
well gray, i guess all i can say at this point is that is exactly why i have been so "agreeable" to the divorce. because i have met someone and it's wonderful. i'll just leave it at that.
I thought you were dead! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Hey, don't feel bad. I fell in love with a gal in an eHarmony ad on the 2be last night! ...but I'll get over it, I 'spect.
I don't see anything wrong with a healthy, above-board friendship. You're a good man, and wouldn't ever let anyone go through what you're going through by doing anything un2ward.
Maintaining positive and healthy contact with the opposite sex is what will keep (all of us) from being universally bitter. Wise words from my father after my first D many years ago...
Well, I'm beginning to wonder what's going on. Sparrow has done nothing toward pursuing this divorce in over a month, aside from grabbing some of her stuff from the garage. Nothing new from her lawyer.
Who'd have thought I'd be daydreaming about some other girl (but never mind, I'll be good) and having these lets-get-it-over-with-already-then thoughts?
I couldn't have dreamed of it two months ago. I guess that's good. I think I'm starting to let go.
Believe it - I'm starting to get anxious for this D to happen.
Some of it is financial. I need to get a roommate, because I'm not going to be able to keep up with my house payments much longer. For complicated reasons, it will be tough for me get a roomie while this divorce agreement is incomplete and unsigned.
I also want to work on my house, and until a buy-out value is decided, I can't do anything to increase the property's value unless I want to pay the sparrow for my own sweat.
But some of it is personal. I want to be free. If there is no way on this blue planet that my W is going to return, why should I twist in the wind? I'm not talking about dating, but I do want to start thinking about that too. I would like to at least be able to think about it.
Now I know what people meant when they told me getting served was just another step, not the end. I was served four months ago. I thought I'd be divorced by Thanksgiving. My attorney told me I probably would be. And here I sit, nothing coming from sparrow-world. Car4love told me that the first pre-trial hearing for her and OM's divorce is not until next May. So now I'm worried that with OM's divorce so far off, the sparrow might be content to do nothing for a while and force me to do it.
Is my eagerness to be finished an effect of plan B, or is it because I waited too long?
I don't want my marriage to be over, but if it's going to end... the sooner the better.
I can hardly believe I just wrote that.
I'm thinking of filing myself if things go too much longer with no action from the sparrow.
The last time I saw her, two months ago, I told my wife, "If this marriage ends, you alone are the cause of that. I won't accept any responsibility for it."
If I wind up having to file to get free, will I still continue to feel that I did everything I could?
Getting confused now... I'm probably just being impatient.
I don’t know how I’d feel if I was childless and in your shoes, but I’m going to encourage you to stick it out a while longer; partially for selfish reasons. I at least can point at you and say, “If he can do this so can Iâ€.
Can’t you get the house appraised now and use that value for any impending settlement?
Maybe it’s a gender thing, but I know that waiting is difficult for me too. I like to fix things, see a definite end and a start, go and achieve the goal with effort...not wait for something that may never arrive. I also feel like I’ve started a race in which I wasn’t told how far away the finish line is. Sorta like someone will just run over and tap me on the shoulder and suddenly tell me it’s over, or worse, that I passed the finish line long ago but didn’t notice. No control on my part. How do I pace myself? I hate this.
Give it some time. Let her pass through significant dates alone...Christmas, birthdays etc. Let OM’s financial disaster and selfish abandonment of his family play out a while too. Base your timeline on a cognitive approach rather than emotional. There will always be pretty girls at political discussions and parties and “band gigsâ€.
Thanks, Binder. You're right, of course... and your "race" analogy is right on. Just having doubts. I'm sick this week, plus I had that pretty girl experience, so my brain is a bit scrambled. I'll admit it, that one got to me. How could it not have? I've been alone and celibate for six months.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, I know EXACTLY how you feel. My h never ever gave me any indication that anything was going to change after dday. absolutely nothing and makes me wonder just how long things would have gone on until he actually told me. one of my goals, if you could call it that, was to not be the one that filed. but after all this, there really to be a point when you realize that it's time to end this. i say that because you and i don't have kids. my h filed so it really was pointless for me to just wait until everything happened when i pretty much knew it wasn't going to change and you know what? when it got to that point, i didn't want him back. i didn't want to be with someone i would never really trust again and who would continually put himself in vulnerable positions just by virtue of his career and hobby choices, not to mention all the other obstacles.
you were not the one that started the process, sparrow was. now it's just a matter if you want to drag things out or maybe NOT help things along. personally i want to start the new year off on a good foot. so maybe that's a time line you can work with. it's really not that far away. like you said, it's been 6 months for you so what else can you expect at this point, it was inevitable that you would start to feel the way you do given the circumstances.
i'm not afraid to be alone, i've actually been on my own for over a year now. but you know what? i have so much more to offer now and with all that i've learned it's very exciting thinking about all the possibilites that are just waiting out there. some may fault me or whatever but IMO i've been separated for a year, have had nothing to go on, and the D will be final within the next couple of weeks, i'm not waiting. i've already gone out a few times and it's truly amazing the things that i've realized. i think my h and i could have had a long marriage but you know what? it would have been void of mutually enjoyable things and i'm just no longer willing to settle for that and that's not what God wants for me. he has shown me that there are better things out there and someone out there and that all this has happened for a reason.
My first H was cheating on me (which I found out after he left) and he had also started drinking. I had never heard of a "dry drunk" before, but apparently that's what he was for most of our M. Anyway, long story short - I made the same pact you did about not being the one to end it. But though he left, I was the one who filed. When I found out about all the drinking and driving he was doing, I became worried that his name was still on all our assets and if he killed someone, I would also lose everything. That prompted me into it, but then I realized I was SO tired of limbo and of placing my destiny in his hands, waiting to see when, or if, he would do something. It was a relief to make the decision and just move on.
I did a sort of Plan B, though I had never actually heard of it at that time. I told him to NEVER try to contact me, especially not at work, and I changed my home phone # (got an unlisted #). We did have contact at income tax time. At this point he informed me he might have made a mistake by leaving me, that it hadn't made him happy after all. My reaction was "so sorry so sad..." but I didn't care anymore. And I never looked back again. For me the key was my answer to the question, "what if he DOES come back?" - and found - to my surprise - that I didn't want him back.
For me the key was my answer to the question, "what if he DOES come back?" - and found - to my surprise - that I didn't want him back.
For me this question is practically debilitating me. I keep thinking I should go out and start socializing again, and atleast making friends with guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> , but this question keeps me almost paralized and has ever since my own ordeal began. What if he comes back? What if he changes? What if I am involved with someone else, then I have to worry about hurting someone. Will I want him, if he changes?
What if, what if, what if?????? It's killing me!
I really like what your dad said about what it takes to not become bitter, to maintain contact with O/sex people.
My loyalty to my ex-fiancee, even now is insane isn't it. But I worry he'll change and I won't be here for him. Gross!
Can't fault you for feeling the flutters for the other woman. You're human and it's hard to be single when you're used to being married. I do think that you'll feel better about yourself overall if you keep from actually "dating" until your DV is final.
As for pushing it along, like was mentioned, Sparrow started it anyway. I on the other hand, STARTED my divorce. I have a bit of guilt from that yet. Wish X would have filed. But he didn't.
I filed for several reasons, but a big one was the same as Deja Vu's:
When I found out about all the drinking and driving he was doing, I became worried that his name was still on all our assets and if he killed someone, I would also lose everything.
I still struggle with guilt because sometimes it seems a poor reason. (Of course that other pesky reason...the one he's living with...was probably a valid one to DV for.)
Unlike all of you (GC, RR, etc.), I really am afraid I'll be alone for the rest of my life. Although I have you beat--been alone and celibate for 10 months now (and yes it bothers me)--I don't really see much that I'm attracted to, I don't go places to meet potential people, and frankly I don't have any opposite-sex friends. Actually, I don't have many really good same-sex friends either, come to think about it. That's what happens when you become all wrapped up in work and kids and your spouse.
I think you'll do fine what ever happens. You seem very well-grounded and together, and like you're a pretty interesting guy from the posts I've read.
You do probably need to take it slow though. Get to know yourself and become comfortable with you as a single guy before you jump into another serious relationship.
Not really a threadjack - I think this is not unlike what Gray has been struggling with either.
I have decided how I'm going to handle things: same way I was handling them when I met my current H. I had decided I was not interested in a "committed relationship" and did not want to get married again. I dated casually, but was always upfront about my position - I didn't advertise it to people I'd just met, but if someone got too pushy, that was my line. It also was my MINDSET and it kept me from seeing everyone I met as a possible mate.
I'm going to do this same thing again. It worked then, and I really believe whatever is meant to be, will be. If H changes and comes back he will be a different person and so will I. How can I know NOW what we will both be like THEN? So, I can't answer a question about the future other than to say, if it was meant to be, it will be - and if I meet someone else and change my position on a committed relationship, and then H comes back - I will assume we were NOT meant to have a second chance after all.
well i forgot to say my record, 13months celibacy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> anyway........
Deja, when you said "and if I meet someone else and change my position on a committed relationship, and then H comes back - I will assume we were NOT meant to have a second chance after all." i too had the concerns when i thought about possibly being in another relationship and what might happen if h called and wanted to come back. well just as more time passed by i just realized i just didn't want that. i would never go out with someone who i knew had an affair so why would going out with my ex be any different? because we would be starting over from scratch. but like i said i don't want him back. i stop short in thanking him for what he did but i'm at a point where i can look back and be able to see the good in the situation.
Well, there it was - LL called the girl I met the other day "the other woman". Can't have that, can we now? I'll have to be good. Stupid principles!
My MIL just called me to wish me a happy Thanksgiving and tell me she loves me and that she's thinking about me. I didn't ask her about the sparrow, and she didn't tell me anything.
At one point she asked if I'm starting to feel "normal". I told her, "I don't really know what normal is any more. I'm learning about a whole new kind of normal. She said, "I know; I am too." Yech. Poor MIL.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, there it was - LL called the girl I met the other day "the other woman". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oops! I did, didn't I. That was quite unintentional--didn't mean she was that kind of "other woman". I am great at sticking my foot in my mouth like that, though. (Yay! I AM good at something after all... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )
RR,
Darn, you have my celibacy record beat! I'm only at about 10 months. (Though over there on the D/D board there are some people who are WAY ahead of me. I hope not to exceed their record, but I have these stupid principles too, and one is to stay celibate until when/if I ever remarry. I didn't do that the first time and we all know what happened to that marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )
Well bless my soul, LL. I'm not planning on celibacy until I'm remarried. I'm definitely going to adjust my deadline too. Too far away, much too far. I'll have to think on that over the long weekend...
Yeah, I think I'm the only one left on this earth who thinks it's a smart idea to wait until marriage... My thinking is that if the person loves me enough to be worth marrying, they'll love me enough to wait. (Of course I actually have to get a life someday and find someone who even shows interest first, or it's sort of a moot point.)
But it can get depressing sometimes when I realize there's a fair chance I will never remarry. And being, uh, "without" for the next, say, 40 years of my life is a little overwhelming to think about. (Heck, 10 months has been a little tough at times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )
I'm thankful for lots of things, but one of the things is for a day of leisure, spent with my family, and the time it gave me to talk about things with my family and reflect on where my life is today.
One of my cousins, a now-divorced BS, and his son, joined us. We didn't discuss my situation at all. Not the day for that stuff. When he left, he gave me a few words of encouragement and a hug.
Later, when it was just my family, we did talk about things a little.
As I've written recently, the sparrow is taking things very slowly.
Letting the D proceed slowly allows the sparrow to spread her consequences out over as long a time as she likes.
Meanwhile, at no cost to her, the equity in our house, half of which I'm going to have to give her in order to buy her out, increases.
I need a roommate to get my budget into the black and keep my house. This requires some significant improvements on the house, but I can't do them until the sparrow is no longer able to benefit financially from them.
So I'm stuck on that practical level.
And I'm also stuck personally, not free to move on, because I've told her (PBL and over the phone) that I don't want to be divorced, and that I want to reconcile. And in person, I told her I would accept no responsibility for the end of our marriage.
I'm still an ace in the hole if things don't work out with OM. I've said, in effect, you finish that old business, and I will be here waiting for you.
When I plan-Bed her over the phone, she was traumatized. She was crying hard, could hardly talk at the end.
But she still hasn't lost me, and she knows it.
She can carry on with OM, see how it plays out, drag out the divorce as much as she wants, gain financially from her ownership of the house she has abandoned, and live what appears to be a rather carefree life.
Meanwhile, I go further into debt, accrue more legal costs, and at the end of each month struggle to come up with my house payment.
OM and car4love won't be in court until MAY 2005. What's the use of the sparrow being divorced before then? She has everything to gain by waiting.
I have everything to lose by allowing it to drag out.
If things don't get moving soon, I think I'm going to have to file.
How can I do this without breaking my word?
And if I can find a way to do it on that personal level, when should I do it - on the slim chance that it scares the sparrow straight?
I was thinking...
Maybe if things are still going nowhere when car4love has her child... I should file.
I'm prepared for that to accelerate the end of my M.
I just don't know...
I have plenty of time to think on this, but I need a plan.
Just letting her divorce me at whatever pace makes it easiest is not going to work.
I think I may need to force her to deal with her choices all at once. She's copping out.
And I can't afford it.
And if it's going to happen anyway... I want to be free.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> If things don't get moving soon, I think I'm going to have to file.
How can I do this without breaking my word? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She can break your heart over and over, but you can't break your word? Not meant to criticize as I do understand - I'm the same way. And have agonized over having given my word, only to find out it was at my own expense later on. However, here's a thought for you that worked for me in my current situation. I had told my H I would share the cost of fixing the deck back when he told me he was doing it so "we" could refinance the house, at which time "we" would get some extra $$ out of it as well. When he tried to collect the $$ for the deck a few weeks ago, I said no, because he had soliticed the offer under false pretenses - that WE would be living here and sharing our $$ and lives together. He knew at the time that he was telling a lie (he had admitted that previously) and I had no way of knowing when I made the offer that I was going to NEED all my cash because "we" were not refinancing after all: "he" was doing it by himself for himself.
So, maybe the "rules" have changed for you too - maybe you gave your word under a different situation than you are in now, and therefore maybe you are not morally bound to keep your word.
Here's another scenario for you: what if she starts doing something dangerous that could jeopardize your joint assets? Would you be bound by your word then? Somewhere there is a line that you CAN cross and live with yourself - maybe you can find that line.
Good luck - I feel for you, and hope I don't find myself having to make the same decision a few months from now, as I have also made similar promises to the ones you made.
The Thanksgiving cyberbug ate my reply!! I hate when that happens.
GC, one thing I have learned about you as we write on this forum is that you have pretty solid judgement and wisdom. I have faith in you to decide when it is right for you to file or not file. You do know...
But let me share something with you. As you know, I was also a BS, and I had NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to D my H or end our M. However, like your sparrow, he hardened his heart and was determined to continue in his cheating ways. One big turning point came for me when I discovered his 13th and final A in our M. I was CRUSHED, but this time I wasn't so much crushed because I couldn't trust HIM--I was crushed because I knew that if I made excuses again, I couldn't trust ME to protect myself. He was being consistent in his choices to keep cheating. I was not being consistent in guarding my own heart, and I was allowing my own boundaries to be trampled.
I believe that day will come for you too. The day when you just KNOW in your heart that if you do not make some kind of move to protect your own self, you will be a willing accomplice in harming yourself.
Another big turning point for me was when my WS and I were separated--he was becoming more and more and more abusive and scary, and there was absolutely no hope in sight of him admitting that he had a problem, or that he had to work on his own issues. He just was not willing to see his own responsibility, and what he was no longer able to ignore, he refused to work on!
In my M, I was the one who filed...me. The faithful one. The one who believed in M until death do us part. In some/many ways, I do still love my exH for the vows I took with him. BUT, when I was no longer able to believe MYSELF...when I was becoming afraid of his rages and abuse...when it was no longer possible to hope that he might admit his issues AND work on them so that we could be in a mutual relationship...
...I decided to file.
When you reach that point, and you know it is the right decision, you feel serenity about your decision. It does hurt, and you do feel sad because you are losing something, but underneath it all is this KNOWING that you have to do it--sort of like still peaceful waters. You may second-guess, but part of you will know that it was the best thing you could do to save yourself.
GC, you will struggle with this. You will grapple with angels over this. You will remember moments that are your turning points. And when it is time to file, you will know you are released and feel some serenity.
I have to say... there's another thought banging around in my head.
The way my W has gone about this is perfect conflict-avoiding stuff. Each time since July that she's seen me, something has inspired her to take steps toward the D. Since I was doing a pretty spotless plan A at those times, I have to imagine she felt guilty and pushed things so she could get closer to having it all over with.
She cried when I put her in plan B on the phone.
But since I did that, other than coming to the garage to pick things up a couple of times, she's taken no steps.
I think she feels too guilty to do everything at once, and needs to build up strength and motivation for each new thing. So this thought banging around is that maybe, maybe, if there's to be any hope for a reconciliation, it will require me to first push her away even harder, to force her to deal with her decision at a speed determined by the legal system, rather than this leisurely, forgiving pace.
I'll take my time with it though. I think I'll resist doing anything until car4love has her baby. Maybe things will change by then. The affair is just reaching the six-month mark. Who knows what could happen?
That's the sliver of hope I still have, I guess, even though I don't know any more if I want to suffer through reconciliation.
I may be going through a change, and I'm just in the middle of it right now and not ready to act on it yet.
Say, CJ, how is it again that I can sign up for an XMas card?
Email your address to: faithfulwifecj@yahoo.com I will then send my addy to you, as turn about is fair play. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I can not speak on your behalf or sparrow's behalf--which is partially why I have grown to trust you. You have good instincts and pretty clear judgement for someone who's right in the midst of all this! HOWEVER, I can speak for my experience and what I have learned about myself and my exH.
It seems to me that my exH and your sparrow appear to have some things in common. My exH's mantra in life is "If you ignore it, it will go away." He rarely if ever faces anything that he is afraid of; nor does her rarely look at himself for issues or take personal responsibility. Often, when I talk to him, I feel as if he doesn't even see ME at all--he's just talking to a mirror and I'm in the room to hear it.
Can you say "Passive-Agressive Conflict Avoider?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
When the fecal matter has hit the oscelator, he has ALWAYS run away...ALWAYS (and I do not use that word lightly). When he runs, he does not choose to inspect introspectively on his contribution to the running--he looks to others for his happiness and pleasure, he blames others for his own faults, and he can not see it at all.
In many ways, my exH is very, very consistent. He consistently chose to turn to OW rather than turning to me. He consistently chose to harm me and his own children rather than feel any pain or discomfort. He consistently chose to play the victim. Etc., etc. He was CONSISTENT. The only thing that was missing was that I did not see how he was actually dancing the same old dance. I kept HOPING he would change...hoping he meant it this time...seeing change that wasn't there... To this day, he is still very consistent in how he treats me (see my thread about "reminders why we are not together") and the choices he makes.
BUT a big, huge part of me now understands that, I think. He really can not do otherwise because he does not have the tools to do anything other than what he knows. He is too afraid to face himself and be honest with himself. He does not want to learn tools that would help him behave differently because that would mean admitting that he might have been wrong. Things occurred in his life that stunted him emotionally so that he does not have the skills or vocabulary to be able to change. He is stuck. And I suspect that some very small part of him knows that he is stuck in a self-destructive pattern, but he can not bring himself to face what he really fears: himself.
I highly and strongly suspect that sparrow is similarly constructly. Something happened along the way in her makeup that stunted her, and she just can not face herself. To do so would mean some sort of destruction of her very identity of herself, and then she REALLY would be lost.
So, they run. They ignore things that they need to attend to, blame others for not attending to it, play the victim and cry out that no one loves them, and all the while they harm themselves. I think of sparrow sort of like I think of my exH...I don't hate her, but I feel sad that she is wounded. I don't think she has it in her to face that she destroyed a M, and for her to file for D, she would have to face that. She would have to face what she is losing (emotionally and financially), and she can not do that. She would have to face that she had a part in it. She would have to face the one she betrayed, and on some level she does know that she betrayed you.
Nope. Much easier to "ignore it, and it will go away." Much easier to pretend it didn't exist and pretend she is happy with this guy--who of course can never bring her happiness because she is not happy within. Much easier to run away and face it only when you "make her"--and then cry victim on top of it all. Much easier to blame you for ending the M than to face that her actions killed it. Avoid-avoid-avoid. Deny-deny-deny.
Can you say "Passive-Agressive Conflict Avoider?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
When the fecal matter has hit the oscelator,...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Too bad that Passive doesn't start with a 'C' because then our WS would be CACA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I know you're fond of the house (like I am of ours). Have you considered selling it now and giving sparrow her "cut" now, with the knowledge that one of her "fallbacks" has now been sacrificed?
or, can you get the house appraised in it's current condition and somehow "freeze" the equity she's entitled 2, so that you can get back 2 work on it? You'd have 2 both hire an appraiser that you can agree upon.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long: <strong> or, can you get the house appraised in it's current condition and somehow "freeze" the equity she's entitled 2, so that you can get back 2 work on it? You'd have 2 both hire an appraiser that you can agree upon. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what we did. Our deal will (presumably) say that when the house is sold, I get half the profit, or $xx (my share of the equity today) whichever is less. That way if the market crashes, he won't lose all the equity to me. I will never take more than 1/2 of what is there, and in theory will take less than he gets assuming there is appreciation before he sells it.
I've had an appraisal done, but she does not know about it yet.
The equity will be frozen, so to speak, when we both sign the marital termination agreement. That's about all I can do right now.
The way it's going is this - sparrow's lawyer sent the original MTA, and we started to skirmish about a few points, via letters between the lawyers. My last contribution was mailed right before Halloween, and she has done nothing since then.
2long, selling the house to scare the sparrow straight is an interesting idea. But I'm not prepared to lose the place.
I wonder if she wants to play file-for-divorce chicken with me.
Whatever it is, something seems to be happening. For better or worse, my plan B has caused a change in her behavior.
She's gone from seeing me occasionally and pushing hard for the divorce to never seeing or hearing from me and not pushing a bit.
I still think that when that affair falls, sparrow will take a huge fall. When she sees the pain this has caused she will crumble. Not that I would wish that kind of pain on anyone, even one who has hurt a pregnant woman, I think sparrow will take a huge beating at her own hands.
Part of me hopes when that happens, you still have love in your heart because I do not like to see people hurting, even from their own misdeeds. But part of me thinks you deserve better.
HOWEVER, I still hope that things work out for you and sparrow. I must be a romantic at heart. And I truely hope that car4love finds peace and happiness too.
What can I say, I'm a girls girl, and I don't like to see women hurting.
Where I'm going with this, I have no idea. Just wanted to be part of the GC group I suppose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Thanks, weaver. I'm having a tough time posting on other threads lately. I'm conflicted, and I don't feel I have much to contribute. So I'm glad you stopped in!
I'm uncertain the A will have a normal, natural death any time soon. Even if either one has doubts, they may feel obligated to stay in it.
I've been reading some threads, thinking about this protection phase. How it's supposed to force the affair to play out, lose its romantic charms, at which point the WS is likely to make a choice to return.
I'm in "yeah but my situation is different" mode today. But I'm not pouting or pitying myself. Just thinking on it...
My W left without giving me a chance for plan A. I did the best I could from a distance. And she may have found a way to keep the loss of romantic luster from killing the affair.
She made it her only option.
And now, seemingly content to let me swing, she's dragging her butt with the divorce too.
I got what I wanted! The divorce isn't happening. But neither is our marriage.
She's content to wait it out until the world accepts her evil affair. Which, eventually, what choice does the world have? And if she's content to wait for me to pursue the D, she won't have to wait long. I can't afford to be separated much longer.
Brilliant.
I suppose there's a slim chance that she's confused, that the affair is not going so well, that she's just stewing at Grandpa's house trying to figure her life out. I have no way really of knowing. But I expect the worst.
Last night my band rehearsal was cancelled - the singer's BIL is an alcoholic, and he disappeared a few days ago. She called me and we talked for a long time. She kept apologizing, then I reminded her how much she's listened to me. And on she rambled. The drunk turned up alive late last night, so at least he's survived another bender...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The divorce isn't happening. But neither is our marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Welcome to Limboland.
The good news is that even though it feels like nothing is happening, time and familiarity tend to wear off the attraction and they find out that they are no better off. Much worse off, actually.
Its a waiting game.
I have done plan A ad nauseum , and sucked up all the hurt.
I am a bit tired of Plan A. I think I have been laying it on a bit thick, so I am backing off.
He has been coming around alot more. The main good thing is that he is spending time with our daughter and she is happy when he is here.
The other day he admitted to causing her harm by taking off- he sees that now, how it messed her up.
I think the fog is lifting slowly, and I think that as it does he is seeing that the mess he has made for the past 20 years, all the harm he has done; is beyond his ability to fix .
Only God can repair this. (but He is good at that). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
hey gray, just wanted to let you know i still read here and try to keep up with what's happening with you.
you are pretty much par for the course at this point and IMO moving along very nicely. i'm curious to know what your IC thinks of your progress and if they have any recommendations at this point. I hope that i don't upset you but i don't put much stock in thinking about whether the A will last or not. i think you are realistic and very insightful and i agree with you when you say that maybe the only reason why they are together or stay together is out of obligation. SH said the exact same thing to me.
i certainly don't want to rush you or push you but i think you said it best when you said you don't have a marriage either right now. if you were to pursue the finalization of things, just remember that you did not start things, she did in more ways then one. why should she get to call the shots now? i had convinced myself that if i pursued anything or went along with anything then i would be giving my h the easy way out and that's just not the case. he and the ow already have issues and i'm aware of the statistics, and also i know that if he is truly a child of God then he will realize one day what he's done and you know what they say? that will be priceless. they also say the best revenge is having a good life. now i'm not saying we have to seek revenge or be vengeful but i think you get what i mean. these adulterers are going to experience heartache and the other saying is they've made their bed and they will need to lie in it.
IMO you are already getting to the point where you really question whether or not that you really want the sparrow back. i don't say that because you don't care for her or love her but because i say it because of what she has done, what she has become, and all the obstacles you would face if reconciliation happened. that's one of the reasons i chose the name i did for the boards because i knew that whatever road i took it was going to be rough and that included recovery. but i eventually got to a point where a recovery w/my h no longer looked desirable and in fact was something i felt that God did not want for me. i didn't get that way overnight but my h never gave me any indication that he was going to change his mind or things would be different. i did see that my changes had an affect on him because if they didn't i think i would already be divorced by now because i would have given good justification to divorce me, does that make sense?
i personally would have been starting off from scratch w/my h had we got back together because we were never good friends, never talked, and didn't have the same goals and beliefs. that would be different from you and sparrow but someone said something to me once that has just kind of stuck. in that would you ever go out with someone you knew had an A? i most definitely would not and would have essentially be "dating" my H and i certainly KNEW he had an A. also w/the career choices, interests, and hobbies my h would always be putting himself in a vulnerable position and i didn't want to always have that lingering.
anything is possible and certainly is possible you and the sparrow could get back together and go on to have the best marriage you could imagine. All things which are impossible with man are possible with God (Luke 18:27). So if you still want to get back together w/sparrow then i want that for you. but i also want to encourage you and reinforce that it is also okay if you no longer want to get back together w/the sparrow and in fact wish she would get going on things. even if you got things going again or whatever, it still would not be done overnight. i told my lawyer on 11/5/504 to tell my h to have the paperwork sent to my lawyer's office and he did tell my H and almost a month later nothing has been finalized, in fact i feel like i'm being jerked around. anyway.............
Shul, you seem to get the best results from your H when you push him away. You've got that instrument pretty well calibrated at this point, haven't you? Push this hard, he comes running. Pull that hard, he runs like the wind...
Good to hear from you, RR. I'm so glad you're okay with things, such as they are.
I associate wanting the sparrow back with how much it hurts when I get any news of the affair. MIL and car4love have been good enough to shield me from information, but when I talk to them I can infer more or less what's going on, and it pains me still. And that suggests to me I'm not ready yet.
Of course, feeling pain at the severing of an attachment is perhaps not the same as wanting it unsevered.
This is the kooky course of my thinking these days. I'm like one of those ball & paddle toys. Do those things have an actual name?
I like my current plan - do nothing until car4love has the baby, unless sparrow gets it together and makes some kind of move. I need to talk to my attorney about what I might do about the house though.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is one of those days - tired of being tough and loyal and principled. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're preachin' to the choir on that one buddy! But the alternative to being loyal, discipline and good (gotta throw in that we're good, right?) Hoovers big time! D'ya think you'd have such staunch supporters as RR and Believer and BobP and even me if you were a moral-less s.o.b.? I'd not want to call you friend... and I do count you as a friend and a blessing, so you're doin' something right - capice? Blessings, however small and insignificant are still blessings and deserve counting.
How are you feeling? My bug kicked my bootay! Evicted the frog from your throat yet?
I got my lap doggie - not the yorkie I wanted, but a mini-daschaund from a rescue. She's the bomb diggety! She made my convalescence not so bad.
I'm incredibly preoccupied with the silence I'm getting from my W. As I keep repeating on this thread, aside from slinking by twice (the last time a month ago) to pick things up, she has done nothing to pursue the divorce since I went to plan B two months ago. A large pile of her things remains waiting in the garage.
To recap, the last time I saw her was 9/18, when she and her cousins came here to get most of her things. At the end of that meeting (in which she said, "I don't want to be married to you any more!"), she cried, I cried and hugged her, and off she went. The last time I spoke with her was when I put her in plan B on 10/13, over the telephone, and she was very emotional. I sent the plan B letter the same day.
I want to just let things slide until car4love has the baby at the end of January, hoping that with a little more time I'll be less ambivalent about what I want. But the situation is driving me to distraction.
Possible reasons:
1. She's not sure this is what she wants. The affair is in its seventh month, and things could be changing. Maybe she's just hiding out, not entirely sure where her feelings are.
2. She has nothing motivating her to hurry it up, since OM won't be divorced for many, many months.
3. She thinks she's doing me a favor by letting me dangle, figures she'll let it go until I want the divorce as much as she does. Though how would she know?
4. She hates being the villain, and wants to wait until I get sick of it all and file for divorce on my own. As a card-carrying conflict avoider, she may simply lack the guts to follow through on the divorce.
4. She figures the longer she waits, the more equity gets built up in the house and the more it costs me to buy her out.
I wish I could stop thinking about this, because there is no way to know what the truth is.
Oh this isn't even a mystery at all. Your sparrow has been extremely consistent on this one--I just don't think you want to see it. Or at least, I think you love her so much you don't CHOOSE to see it. Your lovely sparrow follows the adage "If you ignore it, it will go away." She runs away. Period. She chooses not to deal with issues, she flees them.
Thus...it is extremely consistent for her to run away from this mistake too. If she ignores you, you will go away. If she ignores the failed marriage, it will go away. If she runs away from the pain she has caused you, it will not exist. If she acts as if you don't exist, there is no need to divorce you and face the loss that she will inevitably have to face, because you don't exist!!
If she were to suddenly now turn around and FACE what has happened and what she has done...now THAT would be inconsistent. Right now, she is behaving exactly as she most usually does.
CJ
P.S. I do realize this is not easy to hear. I'm in a bit of a funk (as I'm sure you understand), so if I said this with an unusual lack of compassion, I'm sorry. It sucks when the WS's are consistent!
First quick note: my son is still missing so I'm not altogether in my mind. If this wanders a bit, I apologize, but do your best, okay?? I will too!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> CJ, sure I can see it. That's #4, but your description is better.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well actually, GC, this is NOT #4, because that implies some level of consciousness. I believe she is relatively unconscious to her choices to ignore her problems (because of course, she chooses to ignore that she has an issue avoiding her issues! haha). Anyway, #4 sort of suggests that she has thought about this and is trying to jerk you around, and I suspect it is much more about avoidance than deliberately trying to increase equity.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Now that I'm doing plan B, I can be ignored. What a relief that must be.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heehee...GC you tickle me. Now honestly...can you look me in the keyboard and tell me that you were not ignored while she was right there in front of you? Can you honestly say you were considered and respected? I know you are trying to be sarcastic here (it's DRIPPING with sarcasm!), but at this point it's not about HER anymore so much as it's about YOU. For your own self-worth and self-respect you need to protect yourself from her harmful ways. Now as luck would have it, she probably DOES find it "easier" to ignore you, but the focus here is on doing what you need to do to protect YOU. If she refuses to face her issues and work on herself, then she could be standing right there in front of you and she would still be avoiding you. It's just easier for you to pretend she is "with you" when she is in the same room.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Now I can see that facing these things she wants to ignore is the last thing she wants to do. Wanting to avoid them trumps most everything else.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep--and it helps a little to think of this like a drug addict. She will do ANYTHING (including harming herself, her family, losing her things, ANYTHING!!) in order to not face this--much in the same way a drug addict will willingly lose everything for their numbing drug. They will LOSE AND DESTROY everything so they can numb out and avoid. This is just my personal opinion, but that is heartbreakingly sad, isn't it??
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Question is, what am I supposed to do about it, if anything? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's not a lot you CAN do, GC. Even if you two were to get back together in a healthy relationship, you are each responsible for yourself and your choices. She may be making poor choices, but she's free to do so. About the only thing you CAN do is to protect yourself and keep yourself on the straight and narrow. This is why, on the occasion, the BS is the one to file...not because they want the M to end, but because there does come a day when you realize that it is in fact dead and unrecoverable -AND- the WS does not have the chutzpah to file (even though they did a lot of the work to destroy it)!
In my case, my exH and I were separated for a while (like 6 months), we tried one last time to reconcile and he cheated again, we separated for serious, and the abusive behavior escalated. Even so, we lived apart for another 6 months and then finally I filed. He was willing to continue "status quo" because he didn't want to face what he had done and what he had to lose, but he also didn't want to face what he had done and fix it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> So, I gave it consideration, knew in my heart that he was the unbeliever and did not want to stay, and went ahead and released him (and in a way, released me). I filed for ME--not to hurt him or "wake him up" or any of that--not to gain financially--but because I did see that I was a valuable woman worthy of guarding my heart. See that verse in my signature?? It's there because I know that God finds my heart VALUABLE and wants me to protect it...from my heart a lot of people receive a lifeline and eventually LIFE, and it's too precious to keep allowing it to be damaged.
So that's what you can do. Get to know yourself more and more, and when it's time, you will possibly need to be the one to file.
well i guess you got your answer, there are pros and cons to everything GC and everything happens for a reason. she apparently is deciding your timeline for you and since you know you can't control her then this is okay. it's just some more choices that she will be the one that has to live with the choices and they ARE choices. she may not like the choices but it's still her choice to do what she's doing. it's different for the BS when it comes to filing because we are not the ones that has done wrong, we've been wronged and our choices are based on a lot more information and logical sense then what the WS have.
things will still not be done overnight....people still change their mind. it could be that sparrow will change her mind before the D is final should it come to that or maybe she might change her mind afterwards. maybe you will change your mind before the D is final in that you want it to be final and don't want her back (this is where i am) or you could still not want the D but it happens and even if she wanted to come back, maybe again you may not want her back.
Thank you RR. I consider myself strong, but I have this new letter from the sparrow's lawyer, and having read it and sent an email in response to my own attorney, I feel all the energy has been taken out of me.
I look at the work on my computer, and I can't focus my mind on it at all.
Maybe I'm not so tough after all. At least when this is all over with I'll be free. Right now I feel like giving up. I'm so sick of pain. I've had enough. Sure, I'll get some more in my life, but this heap is just too damned big to swallow all at once.
I sort of keep a journal, and occasionally I jot down thoughts to include in a "goodbye letter" to my wife. Last night I started writing and couldn't stop. I filled pages and pages and pages.
well sweetie, what did the letter say from the sparrow and her lawyer? do you want to talk about it more?
you can always email me at chewey75@hotmail.com just put marriage builders or graycloud in the subject line so that i know who it's from. i know you are sick hearing this but it will be okay, i know you have felt another punch in the stomach and even though you were pretty much expecting it, it still hurts. believe me when i say that i NEVER could have imagined that i would be where i am emotionally and mentally, but i am. i have arrived and it is absolutely wonderful. you will too, you are almost there as it is.
She refuses to give back my email, saying that the account is "hers". I don't know why she should give me static about this. I neglected to take the payments off the credit card we shared (which is in her name), but the account was in my name! She has nothing to lose by cooperating with this request, unless she's printed all my emails out and stuck them in a big folder to try to use against me. Or to help OM use against car4love.
The letter complains that my refusal to communicate with the sparrow will "cause both parties to incur more attorney fees" in resolving the division of property.
That's probably a foundation to sue me for legal fees if I should grow belligerent and stop cooperating with the process.
I responded that I gave her a means of communicating, and that my reason for avoiding direct communication with her is to protect myself from emotional abuse.
I'll probably have to have a face-to-face with my attorney over this one. Ah, another $200 meeting!
RR, things have seemed to change dramatically for you since your WH dropped off the dogs. Of course, that's a few months back now.
Your trouble started about three months before mine. I wonder if I'll be on a similar schedule. I have told friends that if I wind up divorced, I'm not going to wait to date until my original deadline. Next Mem. Day will be the start of "GC's Freedom Summer" if I'm divorced.
With things as they are, my motivation to remain loyal is diminished even more. I'm not altogether repulsive, and I'm tired of being such a damned loner.
I know that feeling of staring at the computer screen and not being able to concentrate. Sigh. I don't care what ya say, I know that it hurts to get those lawyer papers, and you know what else? There is no person on here who doesn't feel a bit weak when vicious communication comes from someone they love.
Yeah, you heard me. You still love her, and parts of you always will because she was your wife and your partner, and parts of HER made you the man you are today. You hate the choices she has made. You hate that she refuses to love you. You hate that she could treat you so badly when you once loved her. You hate that you are going to lose so much. But...you don't hate her.
GC, you know my email--drop me a line if you need to. Otherwise, you know what? You ARE pretty strong, because you are gettting through a DIVORCE with grace, dignity, and character. *THAT* is inner strength!!
GC, all i can say as to what the latest from sparrow and her lawyer is that it's all about the sparrow and and what she is trying to do to make herself feel better or justify what she's doing. why else would someone refuse to give back the emails and say what she has about you not talking to her?
i know about those attorney fees! whew! makes me almost wish i would have filed myself a long time ago.
anyway, yes, things have dramatically changed for me over the last few months and maybe i'll give an update someday. but basically, the bottom line was that i realized i didn't want my H back and i knew it wasn't God's will for us to get back and God wanted better things and a better husband for me. so once i came to that realization and that my h would reap what he has sown someday, even if it's in his children's lives or when he stands before God. it was easy for me to really let go and move on.
i gotta go for the day, it's okay to dream about the future and even one that doesn't include the sparrow can really be wonderful as much as that may hurt to "hear."
I guess all I can do is be decent and not help my W justify anything. She'll take any little scrap she can get though. Pffft! Griping about me refusing to have any contact with her. Not because it makes her feel bad, but because it makes things more expensive.
I am very angry right now. When you bend over backward to be good to someone and they just continue on ruining your life, I suppose it's natural to once in a while just feel like you want to push them down. I went to the Y tonight and swam until I couldn't swim no more, then I went and played music, and I still feel hostile.
Oh, the sparrow got her stuff out of the garage today. I see a pattern here... nothing happens for a month, then bang! A big flurry of activity.
If I were forced to talk to her right now, I think all I'd do is ask one question.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> I guess all I can do is be decent ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep...and be decent according to your own standard of what is "decent"...certainly not hers and not what other people think. GC, if you can hold yourself to your own high standards, it does help a little; you can hold your head up.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Griping about me refusing to have any contact with her. Not because it makes her feel bad, but because it makes things more expensive. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Haha! Oh, those funny WS's! I love this one. They gripe because we BS's don't let them keep hurting us, but boy if we do one little thing that hurts them, we are being inconsiderate. I LOVE it! Seriously! They leave their homes, families, children, obligations and commitments...and then whine because we don't treat them nice!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
(Wiping the tears from my eyes) Whew, okay. I actually have a suggestion that will take the wind out of her sails. In order to minimize expenses, why don't you send her a proposed settlement agreement?
In the lovely state of Colorado (a no-fault state, BTW), we were able to save considerable time and money by using a mediator-type person and sending each other proposed settlements. My exH's first proposed settlement was 1) I get full custody and he gets visitation (BOOM! We agreed); 2) We split holidays 50/50 (Boom! We agreed); 3) He paid for the house with his inheritance money so he gets to keep the whole house and all the proceeds (NOPE! Disagreed); and 4) He pays no alimony or child support (NOPE! Disagreed).
I shot back to him: Agree on #1 and #2 here's my suggested wording; Disagree on #3 and #4, I suggest selling the house and splitting proceeds because it was our marital family home purchased with marital family money--and I suggest no alimony (I can work and support myself) but you DEFINITELY pay child support and contribute to your own children financially.
He shot bact to me: Agree #1 and #2--your wording is fine. #3, agree to split it 50/50. #4, no way--no payments until a judge forces me.
I finalized with: #1 and #2 are agreed. #3, agree to split 60/40 with 60 going into kid's college funds. #4 let's let a judge decree the amount, because I AM going to pursue child support.
And with that, he agreed/I agreed, our costs were minimized by only four meetings with a third party present, and we let the judge tell us the CS amount. Done deal AND costs were kept as low as possible.
Dude, my point here is that you could send her any agreement you find reasonable, and it doesn't have to be in legaleze. Just use a third party to find the "Agreement" and then let the lawyers write up a draft, finese it, and double check it. Does that make sense??
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I am very angry right now. When you bend over backward to be good to someone and they just continue on ruining your life, I suppose it's natural to once in a while just feel like you want to push them down. I went to the Y tonight and swam until I couldn't swim no more, then I went and played music, and I still feel hostile.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dude, it is reasonable and natural for you to feel angry. When Bob Pure wrote his OM-hating, physically violent diatribe that one night, I knew that Bob wouldn't actually go and do those horrific things. It's just a very dark, angry, revenge thing that BS's often feel but don't have the guts to say out loud. Keep swimming. That's probably one of the best ways to expend that energy.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Oh, the sparrow got her stuff out of the garage today. I see a pattern here... nothing happens for a month, then bang! A big flurry of activity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. She builds up to facing what she can not possibly avoid any longer. Then, she comes in on the attack after doing nothing for a long time. Meanwhile, you are relatively caught off-guard because after such a long period of "peace" it's a surprise to be slapped in the face again.
Sigh. This is HARD stuff, huh?? It's okay. You're doing well, even though I know it doesn't feel that way...you are. Let this day end.
good for you! still haven't gotten your email reply but i'm glad you are still around. i'll be out of my office most of the day anyway. have a good weekend and keep us posted on the renter, prayers to you, RR
Thanks, Maddy. I know exactly what you mean about working hard to convey meaning in something you write and then having people miss half of what you put down.
Okay, SS. I like pea pods, roasted root vegetables, those skinny French green beans, mushrooms, black beans, taters, and I like fresh greens. Not the bitter ones so much. I love rocket. Really anything fresh. I love endives. And chilis. And I think onions are miraculous. Shallots, garlic. And that stuff that smells like licorice, darn it, what's it called?
I like most things. Usually if I think I don't like something, I figure it's just because I haven't had it right. Still haven't had beets right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Last night I was up all night. But for a good reason. My friends had their CD release gig, and there was a party before and a party after. Crazy. I'm tired, but thankful that I didn't have much to drink.
I spent the day completely alone. Hardly made a peep, except when I was working on some music. A good, quiet day.
Tomorrow I'm hosting a band meeting. Gotta get up early and make chili. Nighty night, MB chums.
Having been through the demands for communication when there was a child involved (and therefore a MUCH better argument in favor of communication), the argument of "you're making me spend money" just made me laugh. I do love the things people get riled up about!
Anyway, it looks to me like the sparrow is indeed upset about it... and the attorney added the part about the expense. The attorney needs a practical/rational reason for the upset. He can't very well say "Your wife is pissed at you for refusing to talk to her!" because that would look contradictory to her stated goal, which is a divorce. (People who are getting divorces are not exactly the most linear and consistent folks in the world. That applies to both BS and WS, too!)
Your response is exactly the right one. You do not want to be hurt further, you provided a non-lawyer method of communication, and her choice not to use those methods of communication are not your problem.
Oh, and fennel is the name of the vegetable you're thinking of, GC.
The best way I've had beets is when they're peeled, then coated with a little olive oil, a little salt, and a little pepper. Roast or broil 'em in the oven. Eat. Be very happy.
Cool, after I shell the peas, I can send him the pods. I wonder if he means the edible pod ones? Hmmm, maybe I ought to table this one.
roasted root vegetables, Carrots, turnips, beets. Oh, no he said no beets. Lets see, potatoes? No, the potato is an underground fruit, not a root. I wish i had taken more botany. Parsnips, sweet potatoes, there have to be more. I'll think on this one.
those skinny French green beans, mushrooms, black beans, taters, and I like fresh greens.
He mentions taters here, so he must of meant the other root vegies. I don't grow mushrooms, but I have some I am not sure about - mushrooms, toadstools, mushrooms, toadstools - maybe if I send them, he can try them out for me. Should I tell him first? What to do, what to do.
Not the bitter ones so much.
Bitter greens? Which ones are bitter? Not spinich, or chard. They are probably OK.
I love rocket. Really anything fresh. I love endives. And chilis. And I think onions are miraculous. Shallots, garlic. And that stuff that smells like licorice, darn it, what's it called?
Rocket? You have me there. What the heck is rocket? Smells like licorice ?? got me there too.
I like most things. Usually if I think I don't like something, I figure it's just because I haven't had it right. Still haven't had beets right.
As a kid, I hated beets. As a gardner....... pick them, take them in the house, wash them, cook them,(I steam them) a little butter, dash of salt. Mmmmmm. Fresh makes all the difference - at least to me.
Actually, I grow a small garden. Warm enough here to grow a winter one. (Turnips, carrots, onions, spinich.) I wonder if I sent something if it would freeze in the package before the UPS guy could deliver it.
Also, if you come out next summer, I wondered if you would like some produce for your trip. Some people don't care for veggies, so I asked.
How about squash?
Anyway, thanks for the info, I'll file it away for future reference. If I forget, I'll ask again.
Doesn't hurt to have a little fun anyway.
I plan on doing lots of the edible pod peas this spring - we'll see how they do.
I like to garden, but I am not a gardner.
Does this work for something new to talk about?
SS
<small>[ December 12, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
Rocket is arugula. It's just more fun to call it rocket.
Fennel! Why couldn't I remember?
Chard, blech!
Squash, very much liked by GC. Roasted squash.
Most anything roasted. If chicken fat is landing on it while it roasts, all the better.
I'd love to know how to pick wild mushrooms. My friend told me there's a section of woods near his hometown (about an hour away) where he used to fill buckets with morels when he was little. Buckets!
This past summer I had plans to grow my first actual vegetable garden. But events got in the way. I hope to try again next year.
Gardening makes winter more bearable in a way, because right around the new year is the time to start planning, and for some greens, you're starting seeds as early as February, up here in chilly zone 4.
"And that stuff that smells like licorice, darn it, what's it called?"
Ouzo!
...oh, wait a minute, I don't think that's a vegetable. But it WILL make you DANCE! (I know firsthand, as a reformed skeptic).
Nobody mentioned aritchokes... ol' 2long's favorite vegetable in all the known physical universe! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
GC....I'm in a zone 3...don't tell me it's chilly there. Yet 6 hours north of here is some very productive agricultural land. The growing season is short, but the 20+ hours a day of sunshine during the summer months really helps.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Most anything roasted. If chicken fat is landing on it while it roasts, all the better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I enjoy fine dining, work out and can't imagine smoking, but a heaping plate of wings washed down with a pint or two of ale is a little slice of heaven. Here's to saturated animal fats!
Binder, I lived in Edmonton, I think it's really zone ZERO. NO, maybe minus 3.
I like to garden, it relives lots of stress for me. I Have broken a hoe handle or 2 though.
I planted the winter garden in mid Sept. The turnips are ready now, through the end of Feb. Carrots, mid Jan - through mid april. Onions any time (right now they are small though, the green bunching onion til they get bigger.) Spinich - we did spinich salad last week, but it is too small to pick a lot just yet.
Peas will come up late January, and produce late March through April until it gets too hot. Lots of work for a months worth, but what the heck, I like them lots and lots.
Just picked the last tomatoes after Thanksgivng, and we are still eating them. (if they are pink at all, they continue to ripen.) Hope they last another two weeks.
OK, I'll work on having something for you (graycloud) if you get out this way next summer.
Sorry for the off topic stuff, I'll try and find my way back to the regular scheduled programming.
I hope I don't get a ticket for threadjacking.
SS
<small>[ December 12, 2004, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
you won't, it's a FELONY! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> They put you in the ground for that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I'm one of the few out there that likes turnips a bit. Love Jerusalem artichokes a lot, though! (there I go about artichokes, but JAs are root veggies, not thistles!).
gc, I love beets 2. Probably my second favorite veggie. But I agree, they have 2 be done right. I was ac2ally surprised at the amount of flavor in them if you steam them in one of them steamers you can get at Target (that's french for "bullseye", don't you know? but you have 2 pronounce it Tar_zhey!).
I love sliced pickled beets and horseradish on samwiches, 2!
Well when I grow up I want to live in Southeast Appalacia because you can live off the land there, literally.
They have things like sassafras for a good tonic tea which thins your blood in the spring, and wild cherry bark which is sooooo good for you. Gensing (called "sang" by the appalcains) which as you know is the BEST to keep you young and spry.
I once went out on a field trip with a wildcrafter as part of a course I was taking and he said that in the UP of Michigan you would starve to death trying to living off the land. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
I am reading those Foxfire books (thank Kimmy) which are the most interesting books I have ever read. They cured dang near everything with terpentine and kerosene, with a few home picked herbs sprinkled in here and there, and if that didn't cure ya then a swig of moonshine certainly would. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
GC, they go into detail about "shrooming.
If you guys and gals get the chance, pick up a few volumes of the Firefox books. You will LOVE them.
And don't forget about eggplant, sliced, salted and rubbed with olive oil, then grilled. Yummy!
Did somebody say shrooming??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
We love it. GC come visit in the Spring, my ST goes everyday, better yet, will meet you at Weaver's, that is where the good picking is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Nothing better than morels all fried up with some pan fish. YUMMY!!!!
Right on KY!!! Of course we all have to start taking Milk Thistle a week prior to shrooming because it will protect you from the dreaded toodstool. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
We can go to the island KY, where there are NO speed limits & no police. We can stick a keg in the back of the pickup and just go have some good old fashioned fun! Last summer I even saw a cat chasing a fox! Yep that's right, don't mess with _____ Island cats!
Sorry to stop talking about fun vegetables, but I have a problem. I'll be talking to my lawyer about this soon, but I'm fishing for opinions.
It's about the email theft.
Summary: The sparrow and I had a dialup account that we shared, and we both had email addresses under this account. The account was in my name. It was paid with a monthly charge to a credit card which was in the sparrow's name. I was an authorized user for this card. I don't know if I am now. I neglected to cancel this dialup account or change the payment information during the separation. In my mailbox under that account, I had six months of correspondence. It was all very private, and since I use web mail, it was all stored on my ISP's servers.
During the last week of October, I came home one night, and I could not access my email. I went to the online account management, and all the PINs and passwords had been changed. During the following two weeks, I called my ISP several times attempting to gain access to the account, and I could not. The sparrow changed every password, every PIN, changed the payment method, everything, and the ISP would not help me.
I emailed SIL to have her tell the sparrow that I wanted my email back. There was no response.
I had my lawyer bring up the issue in a letter to the sparrow's lawyer, and the response was:
"As for Mr. Graycloud's email account, the account was Ms. Graycloud's email account and being paid by her and he only used an email address under her main account. It was her account and she is entitled to do whatever with her account since she is paying for that account."
The statement is untrue. As I said before, the account was shared by us - it was not "her" account. It was, I'm pretty sure, in my name.
I believe she may have accessed the account to get at the correspondence between me and car4love - many, many, many emails.
I'm worried she might use the correspondence against me, or might give it to OM to use against car4love.
Like I said, I'll be discussing this with my attorney as soon as I can, but I'm not sure how to approach the problem.
Years ago, when I was on a special interest email list, there was a guy there that could tell the most amazing stories about his personal experiences relevant 2 the list.
One day, the owner of the list wanted 2 compile the best of the threads and publish them. The storyteller said he wouldn't give him permission, as they were his stories. The list owner claimed they were his, as the storyteller posted them to his privately-owned list. The storyteller threatened 2 sue if he published the stuff, citing his lawyer saying that even though he'd posted his stories 2 a private email list, he had an unwritten copyright on their distribution. The threads with the stories weren't published in the end.
I would think that your lawyer could use a similar argument. Your emails should be yours, regardless of who's computer they were on.
I agree with 2long. I think the short term easy thing to do would be to have the lawyer contact the ISP, get it switched back to you, copy it, and delete it. A mail from the Lawyer outlining your position usually gets their attention.
Just dropped in to your thread again... sorry to hear things are not going so well for you lately. I had thought you were feeling pretty good last time I stopped by. My thoughts are with you - hoping you can make something good out of the holidays.
You are so busy taking the high road that I wonder if you are taking care of yourself as well as you should. Time to take care of GC, me thinks.
Sounds like we all could use another party... Cerri?
2long, how are things up there in SF? Last time I was there, sparrow and I rented a convertible and drove through Marin County, up to Point Reyes. On the way back we drove across the bridge with the top down. That part was cold, but it was a great day.
DV, I'm having an awful time letting go, but I'm feeling okay. Just very ambivalent. I still haven't all the way accepted that I'm getting divorced. You could call it hope, or you could call it not standing up against someone who has hurt me.
But don't worry about me; I'm looking out for myself first.
I can't get through how it will be for the sparrow. I can't see a way out for her. If she has a long-term relationship with OM, it will always be an affair. I can't see a way for them to launder it. Car4love will always be there. The children will be there. And if anybody ever asks them how they met, they won't be able to tell the truth.
If the affair ends, and sparrow and I are divorced anyway, lets say she meets an entirely new person. Again, when she explains the end of her marriage, she'll have to lie, or look like a villain.
So looking at it from her perspective, there is no way to be free.
I want to help her. But it has a condition, and she doesn't want that.
So I see her stuck with a nasty burden forever.
But humans being adaptable, I also reckon she can probably go on that way, and just be diminished.
It all makes me sad, and it's hard to accept that she would choose the dead-end path.
But I can't stop her from choosing it, and I have to let her go. I'm trying. I tell myself all the time that I must. And I will, in time.
I know I deserve better. But part of me still believes in her.
I'm not a fast griever, I suppose. And I'm tenacious.
Thank you SS, I'll sleep okay if I can avoid the dreams. Darned things.
Look into rocket, haw haw. Yes, do look into it. It's great on sandwiches. Combine with a good piece of bread, a good piece of cheese, maybe a tomato if you can find a decent one, and some prosciutto if you're into that meat thing.
The sparrow and I were married in the Catholic church. Now, I'm not a practicing Catholic, which may be a problem. But I'm not NOT a Catholic either, right?
If I'm divorced, and it's possible, I'd like to approach the Church about having my marriage annulled.
Should I let my W know I plan to do this, or should I just leave it on the shelf?
That's right, ss. The only way for a thinking, caring, thoughtful, empathic individual - male, female, or whatever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - is the high road.
There's no other way. And it does take an incredible amount of time for the epiphanies 2 come. My latest is "do no harm." Same thing as saying "don't LB", but feels different, more substantial 2 me somehow.
The weather here is wonderful! A little cool, certainly for So Cal, but warm for SF this time of year. Clear, sunny days, and not so cool in the evening that I was uncomfortable in my Santa T-shirt walking back from dinner just now.
Couple of things, if you are in a no-fault state, then how could sparrow use the emails against you? for what purpose would that serve? she's the one that had the A, so unless she's going to sue you for slander or something like that I don't see how they could be used against you. Same thing for car4love, the OM's the one that had the A, why would they want to use something like that? Florida is also a no-fault state and the only time that adultery would play a part is if I could prove (or needed to prove) that the WS spent $$ on the OP. Is that what you think the sparrow might do in some twisted way? is say you used her money for the email?
as far as the anullment thing, well to put it bluntly, if you're not catholic then why does it matter if it is anulled? it would be more of a concern to sparrow if she is catholic then it would be to you. I mean honestly, it's just samantics because you still will be divorced legally speaking (according to the government). i think that's why or howmy STBX family just cast me aside so easily because we were never married in the catholic church (his family is catholic) so even though we will be getting divorced, to them we were never married in the first place so it's really of no consequence. it might have mattered to them if we had kids but since we didn't it's off with the wife.
anyway, enough of my rant, continue to keep us posted. also to pigtail on what you said about the start of their R (sparrow and om), that's exactly what SH said to me and it was so profound that i actually said it to WH, his mom, and the OW's mom. Because that's the truth of the matter, in that their R started as an A and that will never ever change, no matter what happens. but that is a bed they made and they will have to lay in it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> DV, I'm having an awful time letting go, but I'm feeling okay. Just very ambivalent. I still haven't all the way accepted that I'm getting divorced. You could call it hope, or you could call it not standing up against someone who has hurt me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did too. For me, moving on (literally - getting a new place to live) has made a big difference. But, you can move on in your head too. Here's what I did - I decided to examine patterns in our M that are surfacing yet again as we negotiate the end. And, I'm seeing traits in him and how he perceives certain kinds of things very differently from me - things that I believe go back to his family background. The more I look at these things, the more I realize there is quite a large gap in mindset between us. For example, he tends to see examples of things and generalize them into something that reflects on him - when it was NOT about him. Then he applies it to other things, and decides everything is about him. Often HE is the farthest thing from my mind when I make a comment. He is really over sensitive - and even though he has had trouble with this at work too, and got in trouble for blowing up and walking off the job one day, he still doesn't see it as his issue.
Anyway, short story long I guess - the point really is that because I know every end also means a new beginning, I'm looking for the new things - or removal of old things - that will make my NEW life better. And it really is helping me get through it. It remains to be seen how I will feel once I'm really gone and spending X-mas alone, etc. etc. - but I think I've finally let go and also (shock!) that I don't want to go back any more. (I can't believe I said that!)
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But don't worry about me; I'm looking out for myself first.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good! Keep it up - you deserve to be happy.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't get through how it will be for the sparrow. I can't see a way out for her. ...
So looking at it from her perspective, there is no way to be free...
I want to help her. But it has a condition, and she doesn't want that...
But I can't stop her from choosing it, and I have to let her go. I'm trying. I tell myself all the time that I must. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, for sparrow - so sorry, so sad. It's not much different from an alcoholic - you can't stop them from killing themselves, and at least she's not doing that. I hope you can get past wanting to help her, and go for the tough love thing instead. Sounds like she is good at avoidance, and it is time she steps up to the plate ALONE and accepts responsibility for her own decisions and actions. How else can she get past this and become a better person? Whether you are in the picture or not... she may need to make changes if she is going to ever have a healthy relationship. I'd be surprised if you could go back to beint with the same person you were with before - without any changes - after all this. It seems to me you want better than that, and so you should.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I deserve better. But part of me still believes in her... I'm not a fast griever, I suppose. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's the part of you that proves you deserve better! Take the time you need - it will only strengthen your resolve in whatever direction it takes you. If I don't talk to you again soon, please take care and have a good holiday season!
Hmmm. GC, the e-mails in that account were written by you, yes, but they were also written by all the people who sent you e-mail. All of those people have copyright on their materials. If those materials were provided to YOU in an e-mail address that was for your use, and the sparrow now has them, I believe all of those people have the right to complain to the ISP that their property has been used for purposes that they did not give permission for. Unless the information was obtained with a search warrant (which it doesn't sound like it was), I suspect your friends could raise quite a stink and demand that all e-mails that they sent be returned to them.
Check with your attorney to see how this all flies, but surely there are quite a number of friends and family of yours who would be interested in having their words returned to them -- and not used in a manner for which they were not designed, by people they didn't address the e-mail to.
J, I like that idea. Hopefully I'll get a chance to discuss it with my extremely busy attorney pretty soon. I got more than I bargained for by hiring a lawyer who is a two-time BS. We get on famously, and she's doing what I need her to do.. but I can see she also wants me to get divorced and be free.
My memories, my promises, and my dreams of a future with my wife are all important to me, and giving up on them challenges me. But they are also a part of my past. They remain, unchangeable, regardless of what happens now. But I have to be willing to give up the life I thought I would have.
I've also begun thinking of the last seven months as a form of abuse. I've begun to wonder if the need to hold on isn't a little victim-like.
From that perspective - viewing my wife as someone who wants to abuse me - I see that the only way to be free might be to turn my back on her and start a new life.
So much to give up...
Oh, hey, thanks to 2long, RR, DV, SS...
Regarding the annullment - I may choose one day to become a Catholic, or I may choose one day to marry a Catholic. I would like both to be options for me.
Yakity yak. Sorry, had music rehearsal tonight, which always makes me chatty.
well i understand now why the question about anullment. unless there is some kind of timeframe that would occur, i would almost cross that bridge when and if it comes.
hope you're doing well and keeping an eye on all those little snowflakes for us. BTW I "named" my truck snowflake, obviously because it's white and because i seemed to always be in cold weather areas..........God Bless, RR
I saw a photo of her today, saw the old person in that face, and felt a deep, deep sadness for her, that she's got herself stuck where she is.
And there's nothing I can do.
I remember the last time I saw her, three months ago. She talked about how unpleasant it was, collecting her things. When I pointed out that it was all her choice, she dismissed what I said, clearly expressing her belief that there was no alternative for her. When she cried, I hugged her, her arms hanging at her side, my hand on the back of her head. She melted into my embrace, but after a few seconds she backed away suddenly, wiped her eyes, and got out of there.
I noticed you said on another thread that there aren't that many FWW's around to give insight. What am I, chopped liver? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just kidding. There are lots of us you silly boy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> How about Myrta, KYellow, Knewbetter, Aussieswife, Buttercup:CC, Hope4future (who hasn't been around on the board for a while and I miss her). I know I'll think of some others soon.
There'll be more when I think of them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I haven't been feeling very idiotic. I think I'll be back soon though.
I think the sense that there aren't more FWWs all over is because as a BH, there's something you always want to hear when you're trying to preserve hope:
"I was exactly like your wife, and the circumstances of my affair were the same, and I came home."
Ridiculous. But sometimes, especially in the early days, those little threads of similarity are like daisies on the side of a cliff that we want to grab hold of, in hopes that they'll keep us from falling.
Actually, H4F seems to have had an experience pretty similar to my WW's, except she never pursued a divorce like my wife has. Doh!
Bless your heart, Kiwi. Summer shaping up down there in utopia?
I just read your post on anothers, and I wanted to say that I don't think anyone would have thought her affair would still be going on.
I sure hope you are going good. You sound okay but you have that sadness in your posts that is hard to miss.
It will be nice to see you happy, and I'm sure it won't be long now before this horrible cloud which has surrounded you these past months lifts for good and you will be happy go lucky once again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Thanks weaver. I thought the thing would have run its course by now. These two people are absolutely transformed, apparently. They seem to have no redeeming characteristics any more. Horrible.
I just sent Xmas cards to most of the sparrow's extended family, and I mailed gifts to MIL and SFIL. I kept the messages in the cards short, simple, and light. Felt good for a bit to have done all that. I suppose it will make some of them nervous.
I've always thought it was strange people get depressed during the holidays. I never believed I had such a special attachment to this time of year, and figured my feelings would stay more or less the same, here at year's end.
So what happened in the grocery store today? One second I'm taking a bottle of milk from the cooler, the next second... tears. What the hell? I haven't cried since my birthday.
Maybe it was the cards.
This attachment should go away. It has no business in me any more.
Holidays are huge triggers. Not just of what is going on in our present life, but of everything that has gone on in the past.
If they were stressful or sad as a child (parents stressed out or fighting) the triggers are just under the surface as adults.
If our security/happiness has been shaken then that compounds it.
I see people act like total emotional, irrational fools around holiday time, and I know that holidays hold a great deal of emotional strife left over from childhood for them.
Couple that with a marriage in trouble or being alone and they just aren't that much fun.
I miss my parents but I really don't miss the get togethers with my parents when all my brothers and sisters would come. So much leftover baggage from childhood especially the sibbling stuff... fireworks for us at every single holiday gathering.
Now I relish small get togethers with a friend or two and my daughter. That's all I need for a really nice holiday.
I think the cards were a very thoughtful gesture Gray. And yes it might make some nervous but it might ease some pain for those who feel terrible about the way things are now, and who miss you.
I love my BIL whom my older sister is about to divorce, and he loves all of us. My heart breaks that he is going through this. Last time I went down to their house he told me that I would always be a sister to him, I know he means it as do I. You are not only losing a family Gray, they are losing a son, brother and a friend. Heartbreaking for all.
My brother is my accountant. We just looked at my tax situation, sort of ballparked it. There is a chance (have to do the taxes for real to know for sure) that I'll owe the IRS much more than I can afford, in which case I'll have to give up the house.
I love this place. I love my neighborhood. I've invested enormous energy and hope in my home since moving in 1 1/2 years ago, and it's another part of my life that may go up in smoke.
Since I can't do a whole lot to change the circumstances, I have to accept whatever happens, try to navigate the transition, and find something positive in it.
Naturally I've thought about this before, but today I faced the possibility for real.
It's valuable, learning to face big changes and let go of attachments and view the losses of them as new beginnings with new possibilities.
"No fault" divorce describes any divorce where the spouse suing for divorce does not have to prove that the other spouse did something wrong. All states allow divorces regardless of who is at "fault."
To get a no fault divorce, one spouse must simply state a reason recognized by the state. In most states, it's enough to declare that the couple cannot get along (this reason goes by such names as "incompatibility," "irreconcilable differences," or "irremediable breakdown of the marriage").
In nearly a dozen states, however, the couple must live apart for a period of months or even years in order to obtain a no fault divorce.
What is a "fault" divorce?
A fault divorce may be granted when the proper grounds for divorce are present and at least one spouse files for it.
The traditional fault grounds are:
* cruelty (inflicting unnecessary emotional or physical pain) -- this is the most frequently used ground for divorce * adultery * desertion for a specified length of time * confinement in prison for a set number of years, and * physical inability to engage in sexual intercourse, if it was not disclosed before marriage.
Why choose a fault divorce? Some people don't want to wait out the period of separation required by their state's law for a no fault divorce. And in some states, a spouse who proves the other's fault may receive a greater share of the marital property or more alimony.
Do all states allow a "fault" divorce?
No, 15 states offer no fault divorce only. This means that a no fault divorce is the only option even when there has been substantial wrongdoing.
The other states allow a spouse to select either a no fault divorce or a fault divorce. For more information, see What type of divorce is allowed in each state?
Grounds for Divorce by State
State Fault grounds No-fault grounds Separation required? Length of separation Alabama • • • 2 years Alaska • • Arizona • Arkansas • • 18 months California • Colorado • Connecticut • • •1 18 months Delaware • • District of Columbia • 6 months Florida • Georgia • • Hawaii • • 2 years Idaho • • • 5 years Illinois • •2 •2 2 years Indiana • Iowa • Kansas • Kentucky • Louisiana • • 180 days Maine • • Maryland • • 1 year Massachusetts • • Michigan • Minnesota • • 180 days Mississippi • • Missouri • Montana • Nebraska • Nevada • • 1 year New Hampshire • • New Jersey • • 18 months New Mexico • • New York • • 1 year North Carolina • • 1 year North Dakota • • Ohio • •3 • 1 year Oklahoma • • Oregon • Pennsylvania • • • 2 years Rhode Island • • • 3 years South Carolina • • 1 year South Dakota • • Tennessee • • •4 2 years Texas • • • 3 years Utah • • • 3 years Vermont • • 6 months Virginia • •5 1 year Washington • West Virginia • • • 1 year Wisconsin • Wyoming • 1Separation-based divorce must also allege incompatibility. 2Must allege irretrievable breakdown and separation for no-fault; if both parties consent, two years may be reduced to six months. 3Divorce will be denied if one party contests ground of incompatibility. 4Separation-based divorce allowed only if there are no children. 5May be reduced to six months if there are no children.
GC: Some time ago (Penny's party?) I told you I would post a link to the Separation & Divorce care group that meets at Grace Church of Eden Prairie. The short description page link, with links to directions, phone numbers for more information, and a link to the registration page is: Here. I've met the people involved in leading these classes, and they're great.
No real words of wisdom to add tonight...I was just thinking of you and wanted you to know.
Re: tears in the grocery store...I've been separated for two years on Dec. 9th and divorced for 1 1/2 years, and I still get vaklempt (a lovely Jewish word that means "choked up with teary eyes) at the strangest moments. For no apparent reason I'll see something and just have a wash of tears--for example, I was flipping through the cable channels and briefly stopped at an Oak Ridge Boys Holiday Special, and they were singing a holiday love song, so I flipped to the next channel. While I watched Emeril cook, I cried because I wish I had someone to sing me a holiday love song. So...sausage bread was soggy.
Dude, it just happens. I don't even LIKE the Oak Ridge Boys!
*** Re: losing your house. This is a little meatier. When my exH and I split up, we had a 3000sqft. house with pool, hottub, the works! He left to live in the hotels with his internet GFs and OW, and the kids and I stayed in a house we couldn't quite afford. Eventually we agreed to sell the house, and I came to terms with losing our family houme. It felt like losing YET ANOTHER THING I LOVED, but some very good things came of it.
First, the kids and I decided TOGETHER that we would all have a voice in where we wanted to live, so for once in our lives, we were making the decision! That was empowering.
Second, we brainstormed ideas of what was important to us and what wasn't...things we wanted and things we didn't care about...what was a deal-breaker, very important, and "forgetaboutit". Our list ended up like this: we wanted to stay in our hometown; the kids wanted to be near their schools and near their dad; deal-breaker: must take our pets 'cuz we had already lost enough; we'd like a swimming pool; deal-breaker: had to be affordable; we had to all three agree on it; we'd each like our own bedroom (teenagers need their own space); and YD got first pick of bedrooms since she had the smallest bedroom in the old house.
Well...we started looking for places that might fit our list. We tried a couple spots and didn't like them (bad neighborhood, too expensive, no kids, etc.)...and then we found our townhome we're in now. It had all of our major requirements and all of our "we hope it has this"--plus I could AFFORD IT!! The day we moved, I felt like I had been cheated out of a house, but within a very short time the new townhouse became SO MUCH BETTER than the old house. Now, it's not even close! About a month or two after we got here, I realized that I COULD DECORATE IT MY WAY! I got to use colors and stuff "I" liked!! That was exciting.
Long story short, I realize it will feel like a loss if you have to lose your home that you love, but take heart, GC. It could be a wonderful, new place that is better than you could imagine...YOUR place...with only GC energy in it.
Thank you, C.J. It's true, I'll have to find a bright spot in whatever happens with the house.
Met w/my IC today, who was trying to convince me that I'm being more accommodating to my anger now. True enough.
We talked about WS not understanding that the cooling of romantic love is natural and normal and not the sign of a marriage in trouble.
We talked about forgiveness. I said that I can't forgive somebody who is not remorseful for what they've done. We agreed that there are different levels of forgiveness.
There's the kind of forgiving that might make you feel good, but lets someone off the hook while they continue to hurt you. This kind is easily given and easily taken back.
Then there's the kind where you say "You are not in debt to me for the thing you did, go in peace," and you give it when your wounds are honestly healed and when the other person is honestly ready to receive it.
And finally, there's a third option. If the guilty person will not ask for your forgiveness, but your wounds are healed and your suffering has turned into indifference, I don't think you can truly forgive that person. You simply let what happened be a part of your past and dwell on it no more.
Tonight I went and got a Xmas tree. Got home, opened the garage to get the tree stand, and then discovered that the last time the sparrow went into the garage she helped herself to the stand.
Years ago, we made a mistake on our taxes, and deducted stuff that we shouldn't have. Didn't get audited until something like 3 years later, and then they audited us for 2 years in a row! Decided we owed several K that we didn't have (a large sum for us at the time). We met with an IRS lawyer who was ac2ally sympathetic with our sitch - we hadn't deliberately defrauded anybody, just made an honest mistake based on some unclear wording in the tax code.
We still owed the money, but were able to make payments. By the time we'd paid it off - a few years later - we'd paid well over the original amount with interest, but we didn't lose our house or the new car we still had a couple of years 2 pay for.
If you're in a bind, talk 2 someone. They can probably help if you show a willingness 2 do what you can.
I will consider that, 2long. It may not be as bad as it first appeared, but we'll have to see.
I can stall on the MTA until I know what my tax situation is. These next few months will be tricky in a way... gotta make the timing of everything work out right.
Until everything happens, she contributes nothing but still gains equity in the house.
Did you have a good day? I personally had a very good day. I don't know if you know what I do for a living, but I'm a retail store manager, and today our store KICKED BUTT!!
However...
My exH was just a [censored] today, and I want to scream! AAAAAAAA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He is manic right now, is basically pushing everyone out of his life (see my other thread--even the OW!!), and in a nutshell had a fight with our OS and told him that OS was "not worth it" to try to repair the relationship! I just CAN NOT BELIEVE that a parent would ever say that to a child, no matter what mental illness they had!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> again!
So I told exH I was angry with him and did not want to talk to him tonight. I was brief and probably a little snotty, because why in the heck should I speak to this man kindly when he has treated us so worthlessly??
AAAAAAA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I'm so sick of this.
"CJ--why are you telling me this?" you wonder?? I'm telling you because I thought you'd like to hear about my day AND because for some WSs you don't get a chance to "forgive" them because they don't see that they did anything wrong. My exH thinks that OUR SON should apologize to him!! Anyway, I am angry with him, but I forgive him in the sense that it will do me harm to hold onto it, so I let it go. You missed that forgiveness in your post: the forgiveness that you give to the one who harmed you because it is good for you, not because they receive it.
There is a fourth choice Gray (to forgiveness). Do you remember the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray ?
Part of if goes like this -
"forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"
Not to be confused with your first choice listed - There's the kind of forgiving that might make you feel good, but lets someone off the hook while they continue to hurt you. This kind is easily given and easily taken back.
I don't really know what that first choice is supposed to mean, but forgiveness is about allowing that we are all human, we all make choices that sometimes hurts another, and we all have the capacity for huge selfishness but we forgive because Jesus asked that we love one another (and to love is to forgive). And that is the same way that The Dalai Lama would have us live, so that our path home (to love) is shorter and easier.
I am still angry sometimes for the way my ex hurt me, lied to me, took away my choice to not go out with a MM and left me more battered and bruised emotionally than I already was - but do I forgive him? Yes, of course. Will I ever forget the pain and allow him back into my life? Probably not.
It would hurt me a lot more if I carried around a lot of bitterness though.
I forgive him because God forgives me, even when I do not ask for it. Even when I am not fulfilling His desire for me, which is most of the time. Even when I hurt another.
Don't get me wrong, I don't like how sparrow and OM have hurt you and car4love, in fact it makes me sick to think of car4love's pain, but we must forgive them, because they are after all only human, "and know not what they do".
I hope you find peace soon Gray, it breaks my heart to know what you have gone through without really even a chance to make it work with sparrow. I think that is probably what hurts you most is the way it all happened so quickly. No chance to go through the stages and slowly lose your love so that the breakup would have at least partially been your choice.
thinking of you GC, hope you are staying warm. maybe when you go back and read the post about the tree stand you'll laugh about it. because that's just how it is, these WS's make no sense and just continue to think only about themselves. my STBXH had taken the laundry baskets when I went to florida last, I was really ticked because I wanted them. Well I told him I wanted them back along with a couple of other items he took without asking.
anyway, i'm actually wondering what i'm going to do about taxes myself. i haven't changed anything with my exemptions yet. i figured i would file the 2004 taxes married but separate (isn't that a choice?). Does that sound okay or does anyone else have a suggestion? I'll be changing the exemptions after the new year.
Glad you got a tree and are continuing to make the best of the situation that you are forced to react to. God Bless, RR
I just received a letter, forwarded to me by my attorney, that she received from the sparrow's lawyer.
The letter, dated 12/15 is mainly an urging - "Please respond quickly to the 11/30 letter, so we can get these two divorced before the end of the year."
Is there a planet where you can get divorced in two weeks? I suggest she move to it.
The letter also includes a list of items the sparrow demands from me, including a couple of things I've already refused her, as well as a bunch of new items.
The girl is off her rocker. Two weeks? During the holidays? Yeah right! And Merry Christmas to you too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
When I say I'm not sure I'll be able to forgive the sparrow for what she's done, I don't mean this as a bitter and belligerent statement that "I'll never forgive her!" I can let go of my anger and pain and all that. Shoot, in a year or two or five this will all be turning into a bad memory, and I don't plan to grind the axe. I'm just not sure about the forgiveness part. Until I have more distance, it will be tough to get the right perspective for that one.
I have to admit, giving my anger a voice is good for me, but also a dangerous business, because it puts me awfully close to reacting angrily to circumstances, which in the end only troubles my soul.
Like the Xmas tree stand business, for instance. It was a very "grinchy" thing for the sparrow to do, grabbing that on her way out. I had to run around a bit and spend a few bucks to replace what she took. It was annoying. But really, who cares? Looking for opportunities to get pi$$ed off is too easy, and a waste.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Until everything happens, she contributes nothing but still gains equity in the house.
Does that seem right to you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO it does not. You should be able to get an appraisal as of the point in time she moved out and use that as the basis for each of your equities in the house. I don't know how courts would rule on this - I do know this is what my H and I are doing, by our agreement. But it seems like a reasonable request even if it had to be decided by a judge.
On another note, any progress in keeping your house? I am now moved into my new house and LOVE it here. I certainly hope you can keep your house as well - it is nice to have a place to call home when all else is going by the wayside.
I do not think you want to D this year - if you do, you suddenly would have a higher single tax rate, wouldn't you? Do you know what her reasoning is? It doesn't make sense to me.
SS, a friend visiting from CA and a friend from my work are coming over tonight.
Smile intact.
DV, I mentioned a retroactive appraisal to my attorney, and she said there would be no help there if it went to court. I had an appraisal done in September. We'll be submitting that to the other side next week.
There is no earthly way the divorce will be done in the next 9 days. It's a complete fantasy. My lawyer is not sure what the sudden urgency is all about. Tax purposes, they say, but that seems overblown. Maybe the sparrow wants it done before the baby is born. Who knows?
I was just thinking of you today. We have one of those light, fluffy snows going here in the Rockies, with kinda gray skies and cloud cover, and it reminded me of the GREAT WHITE NORTH. Of course, our snow is only a couple inches deep, so it hardly qualifies as actual "snow" but still! Everything is blanketed in white and its so peaceful and quiet. I love the way that snow just stills things.
I have no words of wisdom today...just hope you enjoy your friends coming over and YOUR holiday YOUR way. Do you know what I did yesterday for "holiday spirit"? I drank yummy egg nog!! YUM!! No rum was added (I have children to impress) but I LOVE egg nog and enjoyed every drop that I could get out of the glass. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Later at night I had hot chocolate too. It was getting coolish here at night (once the sun sets, the mountain breeze gets coolish), so a hot chocolate was just such a wonderful treat!! Mini-marshmellows too!!!
Re: sparrow and her "Divorce-in-Nine-Days" illusion, I can only say HA HA. As usual, she is not living in reality. She stalls for months and months, and then she says, "Oops! I need it done yesterday"??? Can you say, "I don't think so" and snap in Z-Formation?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> If your divorce is final in 2005 (as "reality-timing" would appear it would be) you two can stipulate in the agreement that you will either file 2005 "married, but separated" or "single". My divorce was final May 23, 2003, and he moved out Dec. 9, 2002. I filed 2003 taxes in Jan. 2004 as single--I claim the kids--and he filed as single too.
My bud came over - my other friend was too busy scrambling getting ready for Xmas. We listened to music, talked politics, had beers, and he gave me an awesome, awesome present. He got me a minidisc recorder, which I've been wanting a long time but can't afford, for recording my music idears.
So we had a groovy night. The big feller is conked in front of my fireplace.
Got very thoughtful cards today from my realtor (who has become a good pal), my godparents, and another aunt and uncle. All had a nice little thoughts for me.
hey gray, just wanted to wish you once again one more time a merry Christmas. i'm leaving work in a few minutes and won't have computer access again until monday.
Today I received cards. I sent the sparrow's best friend and her H gifts, and they sent me a thank you. The in-laws sent a card and a small gift. One of my cousins sent a card. And one of the sparrow's aunts sent a card that said this:
"So sorry 2004 was not the best year for you - you are a dear young man. I guess God has other plans for you and sparrow. Have a great 2005 - Uncle says you were such a good sport at the family fishing event. We'll miss you."
Damn, I didn't take it as well as they probably hoped.
Hey, are we supposed 2 use words like "explode" these days? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
GC: Sounds like you have a good friend, there, and thoughtful inlaws. Sorry the card brought you down.
My sweet and wonderful family, they're driving me nuts. They're loud and messy. No matter how many times I tell them it would be way cool if they took off their shoes, I find little muddy puddles everywhere. With their shoes on, they walk on my rugs and put their feet up on my furniture.
I keep finding napkins and wads of wrapping paper crammed into little hidden spaces. My mother has several huge beds for her dog. Giant beds for this sweet little elderly schnauzer, everywhere. There are shoes all over the place. I put them away, and they find their way back out. I feel like the shoes themselves are walking around.
There are plastic bags everywhere, and tape. And dish towels. So many dish towels. A hundred of them, I think maybe. And potholders. My mother, fearing there would be none, brought piles and piles of potholders, and they're everywhere I look.
Someone walked across the house in dirty wet boots, and I caught my oldest brother and my father mopping up the mess with two of my bath towels. I said, "You guys are wiping the floor with something I use to dry my 'taint." My brother's girlfriend heard me and about died laughing.
They play "Jenga" in my fireplace with burning logs. Logs stacked two feet high, burning hot as anything you've ever seen.
I don't actually flip out. I just laugh and tease them a little and occasionally grumble a bit, but mostly just leave it all alone and let them be. I'm just not used to having other people tromping around my domicile, doing their kooky "other people" things.
Finally, my brothers gone and my father nicely snoozing away in my bed, I was ready for some time alone. But at 1:00 my mother still sat here, exhausted, sipping tea and refusing to go to bed, just hovering over me. I finally said, "Mom, I love you, and I'm glad you're here, but I could use a little time to myself before I go to bed." She understood and was all the way cool about it, gave me a kiss and turned in.
I laughed out loud reading your post this morning. I can sooo relate, from when my parents were alive. Especially about the mess, shoes and napkins and dish towels all over the place! LOL
Well we had a great Christmas Eve too! We opened gifts, played seven card holdem, even taught my DD how to play, listened to great music. It was the nicest I remember in awhile.
My DD is going back to her Dad's today, so I will have all weekend to clean the house. I have hardwood floors too and nobody took their shoes off, my sister didn't even go outside to smoke! Oh well, it was still fun.
It coulda been worse! ...if ol' 2long had been over, there'd be woodworking 2Ls all over the living room, blobs of joint compound on the furni2re and window casings...
...but you'd have one helluva smooth mud job when I left!
Ahhh yes, the one time of year we're all together. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
GC, that was funny and I'm glad you were surrounded by family at Christmas. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Even if they do drive you nuts!
So feeling a little wretched and wanting a new perspective, I decided to read a little on TOW tonight.
Read the forum, read some of the stories.
A while back, not long ago, I wrote about my W not having a clean way through this, that she will be lessened as a human being, how tough it is to watch her volunteer for it, and how confusing it is to see her choose the path she has chosen.
But this is a WW who honestly sees no other way, and because of that, she sees herself as not a horrible person, but the unlucky victim of bad circumstances.
She thinks I killed our marriage, or maybe not, but it died anyway, and now she has to suffer for it while I come out smelling like a rose. How unfair.
So you say even so, how can she justify participating in the destruction of another woman's family?
Because she's not doing it. It is nobody's fault that our marriage failed, it just did. And similarly, so did OM and car4love's, and that's either car4love's fault or it's nobody's fault. But it was a failed marriage before the sparrow came along, so you see, she isn't responsible.
The affair partners found each other, and the timing was just bad. And sure, maybe their affair was a catalyst for the official ending of the two marriages, but had it not happened, they might have stayed unhappily married as they now seem to remember themselves being: unhappy, and undeservedly so.
And in any case, the marriages are over - the affair partners are not in love with us and never could be again, so this must happen, and they have to look like the villains, when in fact they are just victims of stubborn BS who refuse to move on, victims of love discovered at an inconvenient time, and unfairly judged for it all.
Have I got this tortured logic about right?
Bleh. Helps me to think my way through this maze, somehow, even though it continues to seem ludicrous. Hard story to keep straight.
GC, this is scary! I just got done reading over on TOW, and I finally clicked off because it was just too much drivel to read any more!!
I was reading on a thread where the topic was, "What are your standards in your R with MM?" and I'm sorry, I couldn't help it? WHAT STANDARDS?? How can you have STANDARDS with a man who is blatantly disavowing every standard he ever uttered?? Is it really just me, or is it absurdly illogical to say, "I expect my MM to treat me with respect, honesty, and caring" when he has taken his SPOUSE and the co-parent of his own children and treated them with the UTMOST of disrespect, dishonesty, and horror???? What in the WORLD makes TOW think that the same man who treats his BS like worthless garbage would treat them like anything better?? It's not like TOW is so much more valuable! She doesn't have his memories, his vow, his children...nor did she build a life or dream dreams of the future with him.
But somehow in their fairytale world of make-believe, a WS can treat his BS abusively, dishonestly, and worthlessly--but TOW has the "standard" that this same WS should treat THEM with respect, honesty and caring!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I TRULY DO NOT GET THIS!!!!! (shaking head in disbelief)
CJ
P.S. Had a fairly good holiday...but exH is now making those, "I miss you and never stopped loving you" noises. Hmmmm...do you suppose it could be because he and OW are no longer together? Hmmmm... I wonder? (sarcasm so thick you could cut it with a knife)
I guess what pisses me off is that I was a worthless piece of trash that he willingly and easily cast aside WITH HIS OWN CHILDREN, and yet now that he's alone and "needs" me, suddenly I'm supposed to just be available? AARRGGHH!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Just search for "The Other Woman" and you are there. I guarantee you will only stop there once for its BS central!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Michael, don't go there and GC, you stop going there too. THAT'S an order!
The first time I had a look there it made me feel creepy and unclean and not because I'm a FWW. Even at my deepest, darkest, foggiest moments I knew I was wrong, morally and personally. It's the justification and skewed reasoning that's so creepy over there.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have I got this tortured logic about right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it sounds like you have it right. Is Car4love doing ok? You sound pretty strong lately yourself. But please stay away from that OTHER site. It is just too sickening. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Thought I would check in on you after a long while.I liked your post about the illogical thinking of a WS when it comes to the marriage ending.In my case,my WH informed me that "WE both let the marriage die".Hmmm. I never knew that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> He takes responsibility,but refuses to make things right or give the marriage a chance.We are at a point now where we both just want it to be over and fast.My WH because the longer he has to interact with me,he has to look at me or hear the voices in his head about what he did and what he is throwing away.If he is far away from me,those little voices are so small he can probably shut them out completely by going out to some bar,talking to his homewrecker who is supporting him leaving me and our children or by working himself to death.And now it's best if I live without him so we can all be better off mentally,as he says.Yah.
So what is the deal,are you getting a D or is it on hold? Maybe I should go back a reread a bit.I haven't been posting as much the last few days,too tired to and just reading is depressing right now for me.It's probably them holiday blues.
**I agree.Newbies(like michael) should NOT go to the TOW board.It's pure he** and revolting.You have to have a thick skin and be passed the A crappola a good ways before you venture over there to stomach it.
FF, I haven't talked to car4love in several days. We sent each other Xmas cards, but have been otherwise a bit outta touch.
O, thanks for stopping by. My D is about to become full speed ahead, it seems. After sparrow did nothing for almost two months, a letter came from her lawyer the first week of December - "come on, come on, let's hurry up and get this done" sorta thing. My lawyer and I played phone tag for a week, and another letter arrived, "come on, come on, let's get these two divorced before year's end". That one is dated 12/15, there are several BIG unresolved issues, and all of a sudden I'm supposed to scramble around during the holidays to make the D happen quickly. Yeh right. Cram it, I say.
I'm meeting my lawyer in the morning, and we'll go from there. I'm supposed to sign off on the title to the sparrow's car, which has been delivered to my attorney's office.
There is no earthly way this will be done by Friday. I don't know if the sudden urgency is related to piddly tax issues (what the sparrow's lawyer claims) or if it's because car4love's due date is beginning to loom (1/29).
I'm suddenly freaked about New Year's. It was always a big deal to the sparrow. She lived for her New Year's kiss. A couple of women friends and I were thinking about going to dinner at this place where SIL works, and I freaked at the possibility that the sparrow might be there, and then started remembering that kiss that was such a big deal to her, and thought of her and OM on New Year's and... you know the rest.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm suddenly freaked about New Year's. It was always a big deal to the sparrow. She lived for her New Year's kiss. A couple of women friends and I were thinking about going to dinner at this place where SIL works, and I freaked at the possibility that the sparrow might be there, and then started remembering that kiss that was such a big deal to her, and thought of her and OM on New Year's and... you know the rest. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC, I am so sorry for this. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I think New Year's would be tougher than Christmas in your sitch. Please try to surround yourself with friends and have a good time. Try to put the picture of sparrow and OM out of your mind. Can you go somewhere that you know for sure Sparrow won't be at? Not sure I understand why getting D before car4love is due is so important. It is still his child right?
I feel like I haven't been pulling my weight around here. I see a million threads that I'm just plain clueless about...
And I'm sorry for that.
So here's my latest.
I met with my lawyer today. We have a good rapport, and after we'd settled the business of the day, she told me about finishing her divorce a few weeks ago (her XH is a serial cheater), then asked me a bunch of personal questions about the sparrow. She had an interesting perspective.
I talked about how the sparrow was very flighty (haw haw) before she and I got together. Early in all this, SIL told me this:
"When sparrow was little, she was the good sparrow, then she got into high school and became the evil sparrow. When she met you she turned back into the good sparrow, and now she's back to being the evil sparrow."
I told my lawyer about how my W had never to my knowledge actually stayed in the place she rented last summer because she "didn't want to be alone". I described our last meeting, how the sparrow said,
"At least you get to feel good about yourself."
I told how at the end of that meeting I found her in the bathroom crying, and I started to cry and held her for a bit, and she went limp and kind of melted into me with her arms hanging at her sides, but after a few seconds collected herself and backed away, then left.
My lawyer said,
"Well, then you know how she feels. She still loves you, but she's distracted herself. She'll be fine as long as she's got something shiny to focus on."
She made a fist and waved it around and followed it with her head. Then she said,
"For a long time, you were her shiny thing, but she got distracted. Now either OM will dump her or she'll realize what an a-hole he is and get rid of him, and then she'll remember you, and one day..."
She rapped her knuckles on her desk and said, in a fake, high-pitched, pretend-sparrow voice,
"'Honey, can I come back in?'"
Then she said,
"But you'll be done with her."
Her description felt so true, and devastating. That stuff about my W needing a shiny thing to follow was right on. I wish the sparrow could be her own shiny thing.
I took the rest of the day off and met my friend for lunch, and the two of us bought records and looked at guitars and came back to my house and drank a bottle of wine and listened to The Flaming Lips and Jerry Lee Lewis.
Listenin' to the Killer with a buddy and some wine, huh? Maybe it's just me, but somehow I can envision "Goodness, Gracious! Great Balls of Fire!" playing in the background! heehee. Was there "A Whole Lotta Shakin' Goin' On?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> "Good Golly Miss Molly", "Rockin' Pneumonia", "Roll Over Beethoven", and "Chantily Lace" are also some of my personal favs. Once, when I was very young, I had the pleasure of seeing the Killer at a concert...he played his piano like no man I had ever seen before (or since) and it reminded me of Jimmy Hendrix in a way. It was like he knew those keys intimately, just like Jimmy knew his guitars inside and out.
Anyway, I am unfocused here. I think your lawyer offered a wonderful illustration of how the sparrow operates. I guess what makes me kinda sad is that line you wrote (paraphrasing): "I wish she was her own shiny thing." That really is the deep, underlying problem of it all. Rather than loving themselves and respecting themselves, some WS's have such low self-value and self-worth that they just can't look at themselves for love and acceptance--so they get distracted by shiny things and things that offer OUTER love and acceptance rather than INNER love and acceptance.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Let's face it, dude. If your sparrow or my wolf loved themself and found deep inner self-worth, they would not need to turn to other "lovers" for validation that they are loved and wanted. It would be within! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Meanwhile, you know what I take from all this? It is DARN important for me to continue to find self-worth and self-value from within--and if I need to feel valuable, I find value in my intrinsic rarity and uniqueness. After all, I am the only 5ft. bombshell I know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
My prospective tenant stopped by today. It looks like she probably won't be moving in. She wants to go to school in the spring, and she doesn't need a place until March anyway.
If she doesn't get accepted into grad school, she'll need a place, otherwise I'll have to find someone else.
Darn it. She was my only prospect, and I'm bummed. But maybe it's for the best - she's smart, interesting, and quite pretty. Recipe for trouble.
New Year's was a little crazy, though the sparrow had nothing to do with it.
Me, the drummer in my band - call him Crow - and a woman I work with - call her Amelia - and Amelia's friend from out of town - call her Clarice - met for dinner, then went to see a band I know, where other good pals were in attendance.
I was quite sad, and retreated to a dark corner of the club a few times to just soak in the atmosphere and the stuff I was feeling. But I also danced and clowned and had an okay time.
Later, we headed back to the ladies' hotel room. Crow and Clarice were pretty smashed and started messing around a bit. Amelia and I had drunk far less, and were both steady.
Amelia and I got out of there, but there was really nowhere to go, since everything was closed. Drunk revelers roamed the halls of the hotel.
We sat in the vending machine room on the smoking floor for a while, smoking and chatting. After a while we went back to the room. Crow and Clarice were sort of wrapped around each other in Clarice's bed, fully conked.
Amelia put on her PJs and brushed her teeth, then invited me to sleep into her bed. Confident that she wasn't expecting anything, I said the wrong thing.
I said, "Okay."
She's been a great friend this year and has been there for me more than just about anyone else. She's single and she's cute, but I figured I'd done a perfectly good job of "friending" her.
By the way, I had not planned to crash in this hotel room.
I should have called a cab.
I brushed my teeth, then came out, grabbed the extra blanket from the closet, pulled a pillow off the bed, and hit the floor. Amelia gave me the hell of a hard time about it. She said stuff like "I don't bite" and said I was hurting her feelings. It was tough. I said, "Amelia, I love you, but I am still married and I have to protect this boundary. I know you think it's pointless and crazy, but that's how it is. There is not a woman in the world I'd get in that bed with tonight."
She said, "You are so stubborn!" I said, "So are you, but there's nothing you can say or do that will change the fact that I'm sleeping down here tonight."
Terribly cold, and smelling like one big ashtray, I slept horribly on the floor of that hotel room.
Today Amelia came over and gave me my present - a replacement for something the sparrow took from our house.
I don't like my life so much right now. I still miss the nutty sparrow. I hate that I might never speak with her again. I hate everything she's done. I still feel discarded and rejected. I worry that 2005 is not going to be so swell.
Hats off to you, Gray, for having clean conscience.
I feel so empty and deprived of love, touch, etc that had I been in your situation and felt desired I would give in.
I gave plan B letter but H remained at home and now returned after leaving for holidays. No communication as I stopped any attempt after handing the letter. I avoid being in his presence.
Gray, I am still lurking though I don't post much.
It is not easy to be the decisive one when you love the WS.
It's not. I could whine away at this thread, but instead I'll just say I'm stuck in the funk, and I think it partly has to do with clinging to hope for my M to survive, which it almost certainly will not.
See, even one paragraph comes across as a big "Boo hoo."
t'aint nothing wrong with a little Boo Hoo, or a great big BOO either for that matter, and Yogie don't think there's nothing wrong with Boo Boo! LOL
You know you don't have to stop loving her, you just have to accept that this is the way things are for right now. But the beautiful thing about life is that we never know what could be right around the corner. Isn't that wonderful? (okay I might have gone a bit too far with that last one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
Guess what I'm going to have for supper? Asparagus dip, with tortillas fried crisp in olive oil and a really good Beaujolais. Now doesn't that sound good? I worked out tonight, so I'm cool.
Hang in there Gray...I know it's tough but what else can we do?
"I've finally realized now, that you just have to keep breathing. Tomorrow the sun will rise, and who knows what the tide will bring." Tom Hanks (Castaway, 2000)
That movie had a lot of life lessons in it GC. That quote is really the whole story in a nutshell. Keep breathing, keep trying, keep your head up.
One day the tide will bring something ... probably when you least expect it and probably something you weren't looking for. But it will be a wonderful something.
Even if you smelled like one big ashtray (iew!), I think you smelled like roses that night. I'm proud of you.
It might've been a much better idea to catch a cab, it's true. (Remember that for future reference, eh?) But on the way down that slippery slope, you caught yourself and made a good choice. THAT is more important than where along the slide you decided to stop.
Good for you.
And Amelia -- whether she knows it or not -- just saw something that should make her proud to know you.
Oh, and about that funk? If you haven't cried yet, you might as well go ahead and get it over with. Seems like sometimes the waves of sorrow just have to have tears or you can't get through 'em. The longer you fight it, the longer it lasts.
Nice stuff, Tom. I dug that picture. Zemeckis really knows what he's doing.
You know, J, I hadn't thought of that moment when I resolved to hit the floor as a huge victory. I just stood staring into the bathroom sink for a few seconds and realized it was the only thing to do.
What's it they say - some of the most important moments, you don't realize they were a big deal until later.
Crying is rare for me. In a way, I like when it happens. It's such a relief, and it makes me feel incredibly "alive".
Weaver, thanks for what you said about continuing to love my wife. Nobody seems to want me to do that any more. It postpones my recovery, I think, but still seems right.
On New Year's Day I took a swim and a good long sauna to sweat out the previous night's craziness. All gone!
Good for you GC...i am happy to hear that you are still sticking to your boundaries. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
The band I saw - the main dude is kind of a friend, and the rest I know only casually.
One of my friends asked the drummer if his wife was there. He replied, "We're separated, but everything is going to be okay." My cheat-dar went off.
I felt I'd heard of WSes saying some variant of "everything is going to be all right" a few times before on this board. And the sparrow said it to MIL one time right after she left, as her affair was gathering steam.
At midnight, some woman, not the drummer's wife, came up to the stage and gave him a kiss, a real one.
There is an epidemic out there. I have been told so by many people lately - people who deal with the public and especially with people in transition, and they are saying they've never seen such a run on divorces.
A friend of mine was just informed last week by her H that he wanted out too.
I'm thinking of opening a boarding house for separating people. I could make a living at it.
Seriously, I don't blame you for hanging on emotionally to sparrow. I'm doing the same thing, at least part of the time. I talked to H for about 2 hours on the phone on NY Day, and have had disturbing dreams ever since. Dreams that I wake from and think we have reconciled. Very unsettling. Then I can't get back to sleep. This is taking a toll on me, that I hope will end soon.
OTOH, he has not mentioned the D word lately, including last weekend when he said we would have to do taxes but that was about the only thing still dangling, he said (no mention of D). Of course I (in my dreams) read too much into that. Oh well. It's a rocky road, but it's the high road and one we may both have to keep coming back to for awhile.
The good news is however things end up, maybe we will both know we did what we could do, and can move on (with or without spouses) - and with no regrets.
I have those reconciliation dreams now and then, but my W is always uncertain and half-hearted in them. My dreams involving her are no fun, across the board.
You know - when my H and I got married, I was a flawed creature (unlike my goddess-like state today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). My husband knew that - and he married me anyway. In looking back, I'm actually wondering if that's a LARGE reason he felt 'safe' with me in the first place. Because he saw me as being flawed - he figured that his flaws were ok too.
Like in the book Passionate Marriage. We like to think of ourselves as the more 'differentiated' one - but the truth is 'like' seeks out 'like'.
I'm going 2 differ with others here, in that I think you screwed up big time on NYE... ...what the hell is a bright guy like you doing smoking??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Sorry, couldn't resist. Let's chalk it up 2 "recreational cruelty" or something.
You're a really good man, gc. I do understand the longing 2 be rewarded for good behavior. I have 2 catch myself when I get down because they don't come, because the depression feeds on itself and chews me up in the process.
Think you could do any good in the case of the drummer? You have no idea how far it can go when someone sits down with you and says, "Look man, I know it's hard, but what you're doing isn't okay. You're hurting a ton of people... how about if you stop?"
Even if it seems that your words don't get through, I guarantee they won't be forgotten.
Out of conversations like that, an entire culture changes its perspective.
J, I was thinking about it. I barely know the guy, but I think if there was some small, gentle way I could reach out (read: meddle), it could do some good.
You know, complete strangers have helped me -- and people I barely knew. All it takes is a phone call and a question to start it out: "Hey, I'm separated too. It can be really tough. Want a get a cup of coffee and compare notes?"
I have had 2 bite my tongue a few times lately with an otherwise very good friend and colleague, because I didn't want 2 reveal my W's A with him because:
He cheated on his live-in GF several years ago when he realized he's gay. He then married his partner, who is 20 yrs his junior. They broke up about a year and a half ago, and he's just putting his life back 2gether.
I could probably help by relaying my experiences, but I haven't wanted 2 expose 2 anymore other friends. not really needed now.
GC, this was very good that was said on the last page "It's a rocky road, but it's the high road and one we may both have to keep coming back to for awhile.
The good news is however things end up, maybe we will both know we did what we could do, and can move on (with or without spouses) - and with no regrets."
I've always maintained it will be a rough road no matter what happened and still believe that. also about behaving in a way in which i could look back and not have regrets. things are happening and your timeline will soon come ahead and then you will need to make some decisions. till then just get through each day, reach out to your support network and know that it does indeed get better and there are so many people that are pulling and praying for you, RR
I told my New Year's story to a female friend last night. She doesn't entirely get me being so determined and disciplined in all this.
And I have to say - there's a certain amount of idealism to it.
Here are the very reasonable things my friend might say from time to time:
"Your marriage is over, you just aren't divorced yet. You should do whatever you want. It isn't your fault. Why should you suffer?"
"How could you ever take your wife back even if by some miracle she suddenly decided she wanted to reconcile?"
I think going the idealistic route leads to greater inner peace, even though it does mean depriving ourselves of certain external happiness, such as the sort you'd get from having a fling with a friend of the opposite sex, or from launching into a rebound, or from a ONS.
Someday, there will be for all of us, a final curtain.
I believe it's just a curtain, and that we walk off stage to a new gig.
There are few things we get to take with us, but inner peace IS one of them. It is good to think about things............
THE MAN IN THE GLASS When you get what you want in your struggle for self And the world makes you king for a day, Just go to a mirror and look at yourself, And see what that man has to say.
For it isn't your father or mother or wife, Who judgment upon you must pass; The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life Is the one starring back from the glass.
He's the fellow to please, never mind all the rest. For he's with you clear up to the end, And you've passed the most dangerous, difficult test If the man in the glass is your friend.
You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years. And get pats on the back as you pass, But your final reward will be the heartaches and tears If you've cheated the man in the glass.
Dale Wimbrow 1895-1954
So, Graycloud, you don't see recovery, but I do. Emotionally things still stink, but look in the mirror, and see if you see what I see.
I see someone that can live with himself. Someone who doesn't hate what he sees when he looks in the glass.
I think recovery has many faces, some of them are not there yet, some of them are coming along really well.
One of the things God can do, is take away some of the pain. Ask him, don't be afraid to make that request.
Let's see... if the sparrow is one of those people for whom inner peace, and self-respect, and a life based on trying to heal pain rather than create it, are not important... then I guess she's not somebody I should want in my life. But I still do want her in my life, and I would love for her to strive for those things. But that's her own struggle, and I can't help her in it I suppose.
Which is not to say that I'm a superstar myself in those respects, but I try.
2long, I will. Quit, I mean. FWIW I haven't smoked today, and it's 5:30 P.M.
Gray, You want to help the Sparrow obtain gifts that she is not willing to accept, but that she really needs.
I think that's part of your sadness - and one reason it is taking a long time. I see that as good, not bad. I would worry more if you got over it quickly.
2long, don't get me started on tools. My Grand Dad was a mechanic, he started in the 20's, and retired in the late 60's. I grew up in his shop, and it was so hard to get married, move away for a time, and be without virtually anything I needed.
I have his vise, and steel workbench now - but not the valve grinding machine, the air jacks, or the steam cleaner. Oh well.
In the first, the sparrow came home to me, asked me to forgive her, said she wanted to try to save our M, and humbly asked for my help. She was still uncertain in many ways, but had realized she still loved me and didn't want to hurt me any more. Her life had gone into a tailspin. Her affair had ended badly, and she had stayed with various acquaintances for many weeks, trying to muster the courage to reach out to me. She kissed me many times. When I told her I wanted her to be tested for STDs, she excitedly said, "Yeah, me too!" Thrilled to do whatever it took to get back into my life.
I woke up, had a glass of water. The dream had felt real. I was disappointed. I fell back to sleep.
In the second dream, she came to see me, telling me she wanted me to talk. But clearly she only wanted me to be "friends". When I talked about how her cheating and abandonment had hurt me, she casually agreed: "Yeah, that must have sucked." Or she would be confused: "You've cried a lot? Really? Why?" She was perfectly content in her new life. The affair had been accepted by all, and she seemed to have no guilt. She wanted to laugh and joke about 2004, like it was all water under the bridge and everyone had moved on and could look back on it and laugh. I said, "This is not funny! I'm still in the middle of this!" To which the sparrow just shrugged.
GC, my dear friend, I'm so sorry these disappointing dreams haunted you last night. I wish there was something we could do to assauge the hurt a bit. Just know that there are people you've never met who are there to listen and confide in - just as your kindness to them has touched so many.
One of the sparrow's oldest friends just called my cell phone and asked for the sparrow. I recognized her voice and we started talking. She said, "That's so weird, the sparrow emailed me your cell number."
Anyway, she's freaked, because the sparrow wants to take OM and get together with this old friend and her partner, who when he heard of it said, "I don't want to hang out with him, I like Gray."
So she doesn't know what to do about that, but since I don't ever talk to the sparrow, the friend offered to secretly stay friends with me.
The sparrow giving her my cell number, that's pretty funny.
Hearing that the sparrow wants to do "couple" things with OM tells me the affair is just fine, which is a drag.
2long, I think many have stopped resisting because they find it to be futile. Her family has resisted pretty hard, OM's family thinks the whole thing is swell.
But I guess she still has to fight to make the affair legitimate. From what her friend told me, it sounds like people are polite and just shake their heads and roll their eyes when the sparrow isn't looking.
The baby is coming at the end of the month, and I have a feeling it won't change a thing.
That info about the proposed "double date" knocked the wind out of me. That old familiar sensation...
No comment on Sparrow right now. I want to talk music!
Well as you know I have always been a rocknroller (well also a closet Bocelli fan) but someone on here was talking about Etta James, so of course I had to check her out. And oh my gawd, I am in love! What a voice! Have you listened to "I'ld Rather Go Blind" ? I just can't get enough of her! Oh and I came across some Ottis Redding too. Man oh man what voices! Well you probably can't listen to them because of Sparrow, but I can and I am so excited. "These Arms of Mine" and "I've Been Loving You Too Long"!
My DD's dad is a very talented musician, and when we broke up (10 years ago) I stopped music all together because it was so painful for me (piano was my thing) but now I am back in love with music, and it makes me so very happy again!
Just thought I'd share that because I know you would understand.
PS Hi Kimmy! I never get to talk to you anymore but am still reading the foxfire books you turned me onto, thank you!
I sang Otis' "That's How Strong My Love Is" at my friends' wedding back in September. I had to write a new verse for it because it's so short, but it was a great wedding tune.
Sometimes sad love songs get me down, but usually they help. If I feel them pulling me down the cracks, I grab my guitar and work on my own stuff, and that usually keeps me earthbound.
Well, thanks for that. I know you mean it platonically (not plutonically, and thus appropriately) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Speaking of beautiful female voices, that's why I've been using part of a Bel Canto song in my sig line. I truly hope that some music lovers out there will check them out. The lead vocalist, Anneli Drecker, has the most amazing voice, in ol' 2long's humble opinion...
I'm trying to change my "pirating" ways, and turned a new leaf to pay for my music, so thanks for the link and I won't download.
I might make an exception to 2longs girl though, because I have to download to listen. Is that "pirating"?
Oh and I just have to say one more thing about Etta James - "Trust In Me", now if I was a guy that would give me a well you know a "cedar", I love it that much!
Weaver, if a band offers downloads on its website, you have been given implicit permission to use them. Hem has a live cut of themselves covering "The Tennessee Waltz" on their site, as well as samples of several of their own tunes.
I still download things over peer-to-peer networks, because I treat it like radio. If I like someone enough to listen to their song all the time, I go out and buy their CD. If not, then I delete the song.
(stepping to soapbox)
The premise that downloading hurts musicians, while widely accepted in the popular media, is unproven. Truth is, if anything, it threatens the music business establishment, who are all just part of a legalized skim that exploits musicians anyway.
Thanks for helping me stop thinking about that phone call!
*snicker* Yep, all's well in sparrow's world, which is why she's giving out your number so that her friends can call you instead of her.
No matter what's up with her consciously, you're still in her head unconsciously.
May not do any good at all, of course -- I'm sure I'm still in my ex's unconscious too. But it's something. Remember -- you haunt her dreams as much as she haunts yours.
J, thanks. That is a funny slip for her to have made. Our numbers are similar, but she's had no need to remember my number for ages.
How does a person ignore that stuff that's going on deep down inside?
Me, I woke up with my head spinning from those dreams. It shifted my perspective in the most tweaked way for the first hour I was up, the way well-remembered dreams sometimes can.
yep, that's what they do, the WS/OP try to legitamize and normalize what they are doing. they don't see the people rolling their eyes and talking behind the backs because they are in denial and are only out for themselves. when i basically got it out of my h that he was bringing his girlfriend to meet his parents back in july and had asked him how that was being respectful, his answer was all that he was trying to do was lead a normal life. how is it normal to be married and not even have filed for divorce, still lying to your spouse even though they know your having an affair, and bringing your girlfriend cross country to meet your family? how is that normal? what kind of world are you living in if you think that is normal and that it's okay to do that? just chalk it up to the fog and that someday they will reap what they sow even if it's when they stand before God. straight from SH, no matter what they do or what happens, these R's started as A's and that will never ever change.
okay, enough of my rant.......
Etta James "At Last" is one of my favorites. too bad it makes me think of the adulterer who really liked her.
have a good weekend and continued prayers to you, RR
Tonight I went out with some friends. One of my buddies' girlfriend brought a work friend, a very, very cute girl.
I felt a nice little attraction between us. But it was obvious that even if I was without baggage, a serious relationship between us would never work out. She likes to shop for swanky clothes and jewelry - not at all my type. But I bet she'd go out with me if I offered.
Now, given that I believe that having no-strings relationships is all right, when it's happening between adults who have no childrenk, know the risks, and are mature enough to accept them...
Is there any reason that, even if I'm not ready to find a new partner to share my whole entire life with, I should avoid having a few laughs with such a person after I'm divorced?
I may still be "attached" to the sparrow at that point, but really, must my obligation to my marriage remain until I'm ready for another serious relationship?
I have lots of potential dates out there, and I don't want to hurt anybody. But I'm also not too thrilled with the idea of being divorced and still living like a monk for another 1 1/2 years.
I do not want to rationalize having an unhealthy relationship. But it seems a little silly to sequester myself after I'm divorced. Who am I kidding? It seems a lot silly.
My only concern for you casually dating is the possibility of hurting someone. I suppose that if you are honest about your feelings, don't let yourself get too involved, then it might be okay.
What if somebody falls in love with you, you think she might be the one and then sparrow wants to come back?
Even though you are probably incapable of falling in love right now, the girl might fall in love very easily.
Well I guess that would be her problem, if you wanted to look at it that way.
I don't know, I am having a very hard time with this myself.
I don't have a lot of opinions about how long people should wait and all that other stuff. I would not judge someone for dating after they had just been through the most destructive and devastating experience of their life. In fact I give them a lot of credit for even having the ability to date again.
Just don't hurt anyone Gray. And that is my profound advice for the day! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Now what is wrong with that Gray? What is "swanky"? I love funky clothes and shopping! So I think she must be okay!
Is swanky the same as funky?
Atleast she doesn't like to shop for "slutty" clothes. That might be a little hard to get used to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I'm not encouraging you to date though, or discouraging it either. On your own there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Weaver, she's like a peacock! Lots of jewelry, wears a big coat trimmed with fake fur, talked about how she likes to spend money and date total jerks. She flunked a bowling class she took for a college phyed requirement because she didn't want to stick her fingers in the bowling ball and screw up her nails. Very charming girl.
I think I'm being a little impatient. This affair could still blow up, even after I'm divorced. I'll think about it again when the divorce is done.
Oy my gosh, that was funny! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Well glad I could help you come to terms with your question and then answer it for yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Thank you for explaining "swanky" to me! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Which leads me to what is increasingly a problem for me.
I can't see a future with the sparrow any more. I don't see her as a good person doing a bad thing because she's an addict. I view her as a truly negative force, empty in her spirit and lacking principle, interested only in external sources of happiness.
I can't save her. I can't help her or serve as a guide to her. I can't ask her to help me with my own shortcomings. She lacks the ability to share any kind of spiritual path with me or anyone else. I don't know if I can forgive her.
I'm still hurt very much when I hear about her activities. I have unmistakable physical reactions to information. And I still maintain my position as the defender of my marriage. I am still not at all motivated to do what I need to do to help this divorce get settled.
So I'm not looking for an excuse to change anything I'm doing. I just no longer see reconciliation in my future.
I think the sparrow and OM may have just the right degree of emptiness in their hearts that they will stay together and lock all their guilty feelings away forever.
Quite a downer of a post, but there just seems to be no more reason to have any hope for this marriage.
But I'm still, somehow, not ready to give up. Maybe the problem is with me. Maybe I'm too grateful to her for ever loving me.
I don't think you're too grateful. I think you're just hurt. I would hope that you can remain grateful for the time that you did have with sparrow, no matter what the final outcome.
I hope that things start to get a bit unsettled over there when OM's baby is born. But only time will tell.
well i haven't said it in awhile so i'll say it again, i know exactly how you feel. the part about not even seeing a reconciliation or even wanting one. as well as thoughts about future relationships and not hurting someone should they develop feelings for you. i don't know if you remember but i had posted something similar awhile back and compared it to TV sitcoms in how they go from R to R and people get hurt and upset, etc. well it got to the point where almost the thought of possibly hurting someone was paralyzing to me. but you know as long as your honest w/someone about the way you are feeling then the likelihood someone would be hurt is minimal.
someone also said something to me that kind of made me swallow my fear was "nothing ventured nothing gained." i took it to mean that i could get hurt in another R and that person could as well but how will we ever know if we don't get out there and certainly we are much better off this time having learned what we have about R's and HN/HN. once i realized it was indeed "over" and i didn't want my h back and so on, i actually got kind of excited at thinking about the possibilities but like i said it was kind of scary thinking about it to having been hurt and rejected and i didn't want to hurt someone else if they should develope feelings for me.
but you know what? my fears were unfounded and God had the answer waiting right there for me, just let things happen and not get worried about the what if's.
the divorce is still not going to end that quickly anyway. i told my lawyer on 11/5/04 to accept service for the petition for divorce and was told if we agree on everything then it would probably be a few weeks. well that was over 2 months ago. we have both been pushing this to get done and it hasn't because of holidays and just the time it takes for responses, etc. i still don't think it will be done for a couple more weeks. all that is needed is for it to go before a judge. anyway, what i'm saying is it ain't over till it's over. i just kind of forsee what happend to me happening to you in that you will come to a point where you just want it over and want to get on with your life. but if you still put the breaks on the D, that's fine too but i'm just sensing that's not the direction you are going.
i will be soon hitting the 1yr mark on dday and it's truly amazing what has happened over the last year. but gray i got to tell you that right now, i'm happier than i have been in a long, long time, i know there's a great future ahead but i also know i wouldn't be where i am having not gone through what i have. i'm not glad the A happened and all the consequences but i can see the good in it and know that i will have a better marriage the next time around and be a better wife and FRIEND because of what has happened. dday will come and go and will not cause me to pause for an instant.
brighter days are ahead my friend, prayers to you, RR
Today, I received a letter from my attorney advising me to hurry up and take care of a few things I've got hanging over my head.
That old familiar feeling came over me reading the letter. The reality of doing the divorce comes, and the pain I get from it is a very real physical sensation, almost crippling.
How can I pretend to have made any progress at all when I'm still this vulnerable? Having this over with will be a relief, in a way, but I'm obviously not ready.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She flunked a bowling class she took for a college phyed requirement because she didn't want to stick her fingers in the bowling ball and screw up her nails. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG! I'd flunk because I can't stick my feet into someone else's shoes....I could never, ever bowl unless I bought my own shoes...never mind sticking my fingers into those holes....I'd have to Purell the ball first.
I went shopping with Amelia after work today. She headed home and I still hadn't had dinner. All I have in my fridge is nasty spoiling leftovers of Polish Xmas food (when we go sub-zero later this week I'll get rid of it), so I headed to the neighborhood bistro for a bite.
I sat at the bar, next to a woman having dinner alone. She asked if I had enough room. When I went to wash my hands, I asked her to guard my soup. I came back, and we started talking. We talked about where in the neighborhood we lived, and where we came from. I told her I was originally from Wisconsin, and she said she married someone from there. She mentioned visiting in-laws there, and then said, "But I don't have to do that any more."
I had a big, giant, obvious opening to ask about her divorce and get a conversation going on that subject. She was obviously interested in continuing to talk with me, and she was GORGEOUS.
I didn't take the opportunity. Partly out of shyness, partly out of my wish to stay married and not get too personal chatting up this beautiful single woman. We talked a little more about lighter subjects, then she left and we said g'nite.
Is it possible I might actually have a life sometime in the future?
Sorry, the sparrow is the only person I've had a serious relationship with, and I fell a$$-backward into that one. I'm a little too humble or lacking in confidence or whatever to think a beautiful, interesting woman will actually find me appealing. But an optimist would argue there's evidence to the contrary. Hm.
Hey GC. Okay, I just have to put my .02 in here. Now, take a minute to step back. How many women have you had either come on to you or just plain start talking to you in the last say, 2 months? Well, have you stopped yet? There are quite a few aren't there? Well, looking in, I would say that you have absolutely NOTHING to worry about. YOur dedication and your caring shines through. UH DUH!
(And I saw your pic on the photo thread. ANd IMHO, you don't need a bag over your head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
ATTITUDE is everything! For example, in my wild and single days, I dated a LOT. I had more men call to ask me out in a week than far more beautiful women got in a month.
It's the attitude coupled with self-confidence. The self-confidence comes from knowing your self-worth. ANd I think you know who you are. YOu should be proud.
Don't worry. It sounds more like you will have to beat them off with a stick. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
"Is it possible I might actually have a life sometime in the future?"
Is a duck's butt waterproof??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
You being almost hit on by all these babes must be why the REST of the male world DOESN'T have a life right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Just kidding!
and, faa:
"Don't worry. It sounds more like you will have to beat them off with a stick."
2long: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I must be having a blonde moment but how would that work for a man? hhhmmmmm.
This week, I've been nagged by my attorney to get the title for the sparrow's car signed over to her, to get corrections made on the house appraisal, stuff like that.
I've only done a little of it.
I think my laissez-faire approach to all this divorce stuff is going to make me appear disagreeable, and it's going to force me to have to get more mail from the lawyers, which has a terrible effect on me.
This weekend I'm going to do as much as I can. First and most important, I'm boxing up everything remaining that I plan to let the sparrow have.
Next week I'm going to try to have all my divorce homework done, and I'm going to be agreeable and easygoing. Tra la la.
I'm hurting, but I'm just about done hoping for it not to end. Get real, it's over.
The other day I heard a recording of a couple (one of whom posts here occasionally) speaking at their church. The woman, a FWW, got up in front of a few thousand people and talked about having an affair and her efforts to make things right.
I don't believe my wife has anything in her even remotely resembling the guts it would take to do something like that.
In order to not want the sparrow back, it helps to focus on her negative qualities. But focusing on the negative qualities of somebody who has hurt you, while fair, also leads to bitterness and regret. Blech. What a sludgy mess.
I had dinner with car4love tonight. Had a great time. I'm glad to be back in touch with her. I told her I hoped she didn't feel like I've been giving her the cold shoulder the last few months, but that I had to extricate myself from everything for a while. I hope there's some way I can help her, if she needs it, when the baby comes.
Just after I dropped her off, she went to where she meets OM to pick her daughter up. It's real close to her house. I stopped to fuel up at a nearby station. As I started the pump I realized what I might be in for. Sure enough, the sparrow's car went whizzing by and I caught my first blurry glimpse, ever, of OM.
Funny thing... it hardly fazed me at all. I saw the car, said, "Well I'll be damned," and felt a little twinge, but that was it. It was barely a hiccup. I pondered for a second whether I should try getting a good look at the driver, thought what the heck, and took the best look I could. Didn't see much.
Wow, GC do you realize how significant that moment was? You are healing very well my friend. I am glad you are there for car4love again, it sounds like you are strong enough now. Good for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
GC, praying for you to get your house. I am so glad you got your email back. I will pray for car4love and son too. Thank God he is healthy and they are well.
A boy? I wonder if that will make any difference with the OM or not? Some men are more drawn to sons than daughters - and I'm not saying they don't LOVE their daughters, but something about having a namesake - and ESPECIALLY about having a namesake raised by another man - makes them think differently about the situation. There was actually an article about that recently on MSN.
I'm doing okay. A little off kilter - chewing on my situation an awful lot, out of rhythm in my sleeping, blah blah blah. After a rather intense hour, IC sent me home today, said, "Do not go back to work."
I've got about one penny invested in OM's rxn to the child. I've heard something similar about men, but I'm not sure the same thing is likely to happen when a little boy becomes a father. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Children are a huge investment, both financially and most assuredly emotionally. If family really is that important to OM or Sparrow - they can't deny what they're doing to those children. You can't hide from those realities forever - no matter how much they may try. Unfortunatly more energy is probably spent trying to justify and deny - than they'd ever put in to repairing and rebuilding.
H4F, I do believe the most likely scenario is sparrow and OM fall apart, OM maybe tries to reconcile with car4love, and sparrow and I remain apart.
But that speculation is pointless, really. The sparrow is banned from my world, and unless she surprises me one day, I have to judge her as too weak and cowardly to do what it would take to be welcomed back.
Give your thoughts to car4love and her new child. She says she has a name for him, but hasn't told what it is. She's such a tease...
Oh I am so happy for car4love. I hope these days can now be filled with happiness, instead of pain.
These men who have affairs and even leave their wives during a pregnancy have no idea how fragile an unborn baby and mother are. He threatened his own sons life, and the welfare of his little girl with his selfishness. Not to mention the sanity of the one who carried these children, whom he promised to love and protect. How blind.
I hope you are doing okay Gray, I mean really. It's hard to tell with you sometimes, just how bad you might be feeling vs what you write which might be underplaying the depth of your pain.
Accepting that it is over is one thing, feeling joy and true happiness is quite another.
Gray, for me I think I am there, finally. I don't think I would take him back now. Don't want him back at all. All I feel now is pity and a kind of sadness that I had so much love for someone and now it is gone. Just gone.
Too many times I believed the lies, and too many times I turned a blind eye...now there is nothing left.
But I'm pretty much happy now, more than not! Yeah! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Hee hee - I could give car4love more than just my thoughts. No one prepared me for what lay in store for having a baby boy! I had to learn the hard way! Especially since all my sis-in-laws have girls! We all learned together :-D But definatly - my congratulations to Car4love.
I have to wonder if you aren't right - GC. Your wife might just be stubborn and prideful enough to continue to keep up the cherade that she was right about the two of you not being right for each other - that way she can continue to overshadow the wrongness of what she did - even if he does prove to have been a wrong choice as well. Like you said, though - you just can never know. It's best to focus on the present - and let the future take care of itself.
...so I'm left trying to make sense of the past. This has solely to do with my own recovery, but I wonder if I'll ever remember my M without those memories being spoiled by how it ended. Those years used to be a time I thought was very happy, a time we were building a life together, and doing a good job of it. Now those years feel like a big hole in my past.
Weaver, I've thought lots about the threat to that baby boy's life, and how his own father endangered him. Incredible.
WS don't seem to realize the scale of the pain they create. The fact that it's off the charts - that it is a very big deal - seems perfectly lost on them.
Weaver, I think the resignation you may sense in what I write is real. I'm still fun to be around, most of the time, but I bob and weave from one feeling to another. This is stuff a fella has to chew on for one hell of a long time before it's ready to be swallowed.
Did you ever have a bad breakup? One where you're left completely heartbroken, or one where you totally hate the person?? If you look back on those times now - do they seem nearly as tragic? Or how about people who go through tramatic experiences - or lose loved ones in tramatic ways? Are they ever able to heal enough to remember those people without the pain? It takes time - but yes, even if your marriage ends, there will be a time when you'll be able to look back and remember it without all the ugliness. It won't feel sentimental and warm and fuzzy - but it won't send shearing pain through you either.
I can't emphasize enough - trying to make sense of this is futile. There IS no sense to be made. She has lost control of herself - she's lost in a sea of her own emotions - and that steers her down whatever path feels the least painful at the time. That's it. There's no good answer as to why - other than the fact that she's human and therefore subject to making irrational choices with no logical basis.
You know what ELSE doesn't make sense? Getting lost with her. You have other choices. Don't let yourself be dragged down by trying to figure out her mindset, or the future, or what the 'right' move is to make everything allright again. Your marriage has been torn down to the ground - and with it, a large piece of your life. So it's time to start rebuilding your life - and leave the unknowns alone. IF she ever does come back - the two of you will still have so much to work through before you can even start to rebuild your marriage. And you'll have to rebuild it almost as if it's a whole new relationship.
H4F, I have accepted that my old life, at least a very important piece of it, has passed away, and no longer exists. I've started to let go of it.
Know what else?
This relationship is the only serious one I've ever been in.
In order to move forward, I think it's necessary to analyze the events that have taken place, and to do my best to understand them. My wife chose to have an affair, and she chooses to defend it. This was not an act of god, and there are reasons she's made the decisions she's made, some of which do have something to do with me.
But it's too late for her to fix the damage she's done. She's bonded and created some kind of intimacy with another man. She has spent time with his child and his family, who have apparently welcomed her. I'm losing my ability to see myself overcoming the rejection represented by all that. I deserve someone with principle and courage, not this chickens**t woman who somehow manages to sleep at night, even though I cannot.
Whoops, my IC would use that ugly word "rageful" to describe my attitude just then. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I understand, without any details, that OM is being nasty to car4love. The sparrow and OM do what they've done to this child's mother, then when the child, thank heaven, is born healthy, OM continues being nasty to a woman he promised to love forever, the mother of his children, who is recovering from giving birth three days ago. I'm not surprised, but I am very P.O.ed.
I recognize that I'm in my "anger" stage right now. I feel the same sensation of grief - a sort of tightness that goes from my guts up through my chest and around my ears to the top of my head - but instead of feeling sad and wanting to crawl in a hole, I want to go find OM and pound him. I've actually considered it. I've thought about going to jail, and how it would be worth it.
I won't do anything like this, but holy crap, I suddenly want to go after this dude, and push my wife down while I'm at it if she shows up. Bah!
Laughed out loud when I read this Gray. Too funny.
Listened to this song this a.m. and thought of you -
Seagull by Bad Company
Seagull you fly across the horizon Into the misty morning sun Nobody asked you where you are going Nobody knows where you're from
Here is a man asking the question Is this really the end of the world Seagull you must have known for a long time The shape of things to come Now you fly through the sky Never asking why, and you fly All around til somebody shoots you down
Dadadada da da da down mm mm mm mm mm mm
Now you seasgull you fly, seagull you fly away And you'll fly away today And you'll fly away tomorrow And you'll fly away, leave me to my sorrow
Does anyone remember Jonathon Livingston Seagull? Loved that book!
Weaver, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . That book was popular a little before my time, but I loved the song.
Amazing what a little relaxation, lots of sleep, and some good music can do for a fella.
Get this - yesterday I got a notice from my credit union, saying I'm deliquent on my wife's car loan. She's missed a car payment. I wonder if she's doing it on purpose to rattle me, or if she's just being dumb about her bills. Surprising - we never missed a payment on any debt in all the years we were together. Our credit rating was A+.
Of course, the loan is in my name, so I'll take the brunt of the consequence for this one.
I'm glad you're calm 2day, because my response 2 "calm blue ocean" was going 2 be something like "The Titanic is at the bottom of a calm blue ocean". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Johnathan Livingston Seagull was a very inspirational book 2 me and several of my teenage friends when it came out.
I just called my retirement fund to see if I can unevenly split my retirement money with the sparrow.
Short story - I can buy her out of the house using my retirement money, free of any taxes or penalties, as long as she agrees to the conditions on the account that would be created in her name.
She'd be stupid to refuse.
I have to meet with my attorney, but I think this is looking okay. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
One of the sparrow's friends invited me to her house for dinner on Friday. This is an old high school friend of the sparrow's, I've known her for years, and she has indicated to me several times that she isn't supportive of the sparrow's shenanigans.
I agreed enthusiastically to go.
Now I'm a little paranoid. Should I be? I was thinking of having somebody watch my house while I'm gone...
I doubt it regarding the threat to your property... an outsider looking in might suspect she's after something for herself.
Staying the high road in spite of such horrible treatment where most men would react with spiteful vengeance does not go unnoticed by your acquaintances I suspect.
Binder, she's in a LTR - has lived with her BF for years.
That was probably dumb, worrying about the house. If she wanted to bust in, she could do it in the daytime or when I'm at band rehearsal. Though this way, it will be dark and she would know for sure that I'm not there.
I'm more paranoid that the friend, let's call her Mary, has some weird scheme cooked up involving my wife. I am probably making too much of it, but I'm crazy preoccupied with paranoid fantasies now...
The B and E to your house scenario, though not impossible,.....highly improbable. Lock up your house and accept the hand of kindness that has been extended to you. Hate to see you put any walls up; they have the bad habit of occasionally becoming one's prison.
hey GC, just now getting back to the boards after my vacation. but honestly I cannot say anything that has been said since the 14th (when I went out of town) and there has been some very good insight and advice. the only thing that really surprised me was the fact that at this point you have still have no idea what the OM looks like. for some reason i found that strange.
anyway....you know where i stand. it's not that we don't love the WS anymore or even that we can't love them and as much it grates the nerve to say, WE are not in love with them anymore. have you ever heard the saying "love the sinner not the sin." it's a similar thing, you love AND care for her because of the way things once were but as it is appearing to be, the current path she is on is HER path and she will realize one day, maybe on her death bed, the full extent and consequences of the path that she CHOSE.
once i realized that my h was someone that i really could not go to the grave trusting, and i knew there was someone out there that i could have that with, it was easier for me to let go. like someone else said above, if reconciliation did happen it would be starting all over essentially and why would i want to "date" someone that I knew had an A amongst other things. let alone the fact that he never told me, i found out. like the sparrow, he just lacked courage and lied to me and even lied to me afterwards. i think not having children made a huge difference in my situation and now i'm very thankful that i did not have children with him.
well, gotta go still lots of emails to catch up after my leave and i'm not getting any younger (i turned 30 on the 19th). as always continued prayers to you, RR
In a snowstorm, I went to the sparrow's old friend's house tonight.
Of course my suspicions were unfounded.
She and her BF were so nice to me. They had met OM and said he was a [censored] (for my benefit?). We talked and drank wine and had fun. I told them a few things, but tried not to dominate the shindig with gory details.
It's very disturbing to hear how the sparrow has lied about events, downplayed the affair, and tried to make people think she and OM didn't get together 'til she'd already decided to leave me.
By the way, last night I went to the neighborhood bistro and chatted up one of the waitresses for a couple of hours. A beautiful, smart, interesting girl. Another "tag and release". I hope that doesn't come across as crass.
Stay away from ...beautiful, smart, interesting girl...you dont want to get in trouble <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I am curious...how long do you plan to wait in plan B?
I have 4 months to go...then i will file the papers.
I want to be free to do ONS if i choose to.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Not that i want to...am not the type.
In fact i feel like i want to stay away from men forever...i probably wont marry again either...i dont think i know how to trust any men from now onwards. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
I can handle chatting up women, but thanks for the warning ziz. I know it's a cheap band-aid.
We got socked in with snow last night. I just finished digging out, and it's a beautiful day. The sky is a dazzling blue, all the evergreens are decorated with snow, icicles are dripping, and the air is cool and clear. Who needs a WS?
I think I'm almost through. I think maybe I don't want her back. No hurry though...
FF, thanks for responding. Yeah, you could say I'm in a down mood.
I'm tired, and I want to be free. I'd be reluctant to allow my W into my life at this point, but I also don't want her A to succeed. Why should I care? But then I remember that I at least officially would still try to save my M, given the chance. This makes me keep a tiny little bit of hope. Then my brain says, "you must let go", I think about having a clean slate and an unpolluted life, and I'm back to the start.
I think MBing for someone in my situation (wife gone, divorce proceeding, no real reason to expect things to change) disrupts the grieving process.
You know GC, if there is still some small hope for your M what do you think you could do to salvage it? I know my H told me point blank if we did not have children, we would not still be doing this. Yes, maybe that is our main connection but I think he is wrong. There is more there it is just wading through the muck of adultery and baggage we bring to the M in the first place to find it.
For me I guess, I would weigh the risks vs the rewards and make a decision for or against the M. I think perhaps you have been caught up in the tide too long. Make sense? You have a lot going for you with our without your WW.
Sending my lawyer some numbers tonight... they'll result in an offer for buying the sparrow out of the house. Lawyer said they're "anxious to get everything settled." It's true too - I dropped off the car titles on Monday, and she wasted no time getting to my lawyer's office to pick up hers and sign off on mine.
My friend - I know it's hard to watch someone you loved self destruct, as we know Sparrow probably will.
You've handled yourself with grace and dignity through this mess. I know it is a small comfort considering the largeness of the hurt you've had, but hopefully it will help you to realize you've done all the right things and heal.
I want you to have all the best that life has to offer...you deserve it, and you've def. earned it.
The Sparrow, unfortunately, will reap the Karma she's sown, too.
In my view, that you dragged it out this long and finally she got pushed into filing (can you hear OM ranting? I can) may be a good thing. Don't worry about seeing her in court. Worry about what you want your attorney to say to the judge -- for sparrow's ears.
Things like, "Mr. Graycloud has done his level best to reconcile with Mrs. Sparrow, yerhonor, and in our offices we are proud to serve someone who is committed to the marriage vows that he took. I wish I had more clients like Mr. Graycloud. It would make my job a whole lot better, and a whole lot more marriages would never come before you in this court."
That might be laying it on a little thick -- it depends on the attorney and the judge in question. But it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Thanks, J. I have no idea what my lawyer will say. I doubt she'll get the chance at anything so pretty as what you imagined.
Far as seeing the sparrow in court, it's important that I be the best GC possible. I want to look good, be well dressed and be pleasant and cool and detached. It's sure to be a tough afternoon, but I know I can handle it. I haven't seen my WW in almost four months.
I guess you're right though, J. Even though I didn't want it to go here, it is a certain kind of victory for me to have brought the sparrow to this.
I was worried, should I make eye contact, should I not... then it occurred to me, the sparrow is the one who should worry about whether she can look anyone in the eye.
I feel sad and alone, but I also feel good about where I've stood. I've given my wife every opportunity to seek my forgiveness. The fact that she's rejected my offers doesn't reflect on me. I was a great partner. I was very affectionate. I always treated her with kindness and respect. I encouraged her to find something she wanted to do, and I helped her become successful at it. I told her all the time that she was beautiful and brilliant and special. I'll accept no responsibility for this. I'm going to walk away clean. I've identified my failings, and I won't make those mistakes again.
As I shuffled old emails around this week, I read the things I wrote to her during the last couple of years. "Here's something interesing I found." "I hope you're having a great day." "How about we have such-and-such for dinner?" Her emails to me were all links to things she wanted to buy.
I'm so disappointed in her. At one time she was really a wonderful girl. Now, the last 11 years mean nothing at all to her. Either she changed, or I thought waaaay too much of her.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> Either she changed, or I thought waaaay too much of her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sentence really struck me. Both as a great wrap up for your post and on a personal level. I think you're expressing a feeling I have about my W much of the time.
Does feeliing that way about the sparrow make it eaasier or harder for you?
Now, the last 11 years mean nothing at all to her. Either she changed, or I thought waaaay too much of her. GC, first I hope you will remind us of your court date so we can be praying for strength for you. You have the right idea to be the best GC you can be in the court that day. Let sparrow see what see threw away. I want to comment on your above statement. I hope you are wrong when you say the last 11 years mean nothing to her. She has messed up big and it may take years, but one day I think she will realized what those years meant. By your description, she sounds like she was a little more selfish than you cared to see perhaps, but you loved her and how could that be wrong?
Anyway, Gray you are a good, good man with a wonderful life ahead of you. You now have the chance to let go of this pain and move on in your life. You will have much to offer another woman from all you have learned here on MB.
It may be indulgent for me to post about my own situation tonight... so I'll do it anyway.
I'm trying to finish the sparrow's packing. All that fragile stuff! Wrapping each thing up in newspaper, so on and so on. People always ask me why don't I just chuck it in the boxes and let her deal with it. I have a hard time explaining that it's because I still love her and don't feel like being sh**ty. That makes me a sucker and a chump. Fine.
As I was finishing up, I remembered there was one thing I forgot: photos.
Once two people made a life together. They were happy most all the time. They had good friends and loving families. They were always good to each other. In their photos their smiles are genuine, and they most always have their arms around each other.
Surely, there would have been difficult times, there would have been losses. But it looked like it would be a safe, unpolluted life.
Now it's filthy and broken and all but dead, and it feels like neither can ever have a life like that again.
I feel diseased. I feel a hundred years old. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
Greg, be prepared to be hit like a ten ton truck when you see her again in court.
I have nothing else to say but that you WILL get through all this and even though Sparrow was your everything you'll get to the stage through your grief that you'll be able to live again.
Edited to add - why indulgent? Everyone's situation is the same as everyone elses. Just cos someone is more well known than everyone else doesn't negate yours or anyone else's personal pain.
Jen, I wasn't thinking of just Penny. There just seems to be a hell of a lot of trouble here this weekend.
In the last few weeks... a female friend of mine got cheated on, my brother started dating a woman who lost her marriage to an affair AND he asked for my advice on what to do about a friendship with a guy who's cheating, and now Penny. God, it's a storm.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> I feel diseased. I feel a hundred years old. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, GC.
I have followed your story from your first post here.
I like to observe a man for a time, from a distance. You get to see what they are made out of.
I have watched you. I will tell you what I have seen.
I have seen a man of integrity, from beginning to end, eat one of the worst crap sandwiches that life can feed a human. You have faced your pain head on. You should be proud of what you have done. If you were my son, I would certainly be proud of you.
You have nothing to be ashamed of Gray. Good form.
Greg, you are one cool guy. All of us would be, and are, proud to call you friend.
Sorry, if I sound a bit schizophrenic - supporting you here, having a go at you on Penny's thread, laughing on your double post. I'm a Gemini. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
And I'm allowed to say that because I'm old enough to be your mother.
We have photos that Rob can't look at. They're the ones from our family holiday to Italy at the height of my A and it is one of the (many) things that eats away at me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Gotta go. Work in the morning - if I remember to go.
During the 2 years of my time of stupidity I was very VERY self absorbed. I was definatly someone I had not been, and am not today. Part of it was due to being fed up with feeling unloved, unwanted, uncared for - my giver had just burned out and my taker took over. The other part was due to guilt - because if I DIDN'T really deserve everything I thought I did - then my justifications for being so horrible went right out the window. The mere thought of that was too painful to even fathom. It's really a vicious cycle - pain brings about feelings of guilt, guilt brings about feelings of pain, both lead to more justifications to try to make it all feel better. I'm sure she's working on the theory that ripping the bandaid off will make it all feel better - then the healing can begin and all that bullhockey. I know that's how I felt and I have heard others express the same thoughts. But it still won't work. The pain will just keep burning a hole in them. Every justificiation is an attempt to dodge the fire - but the ONLY way out is to face it and walk right through it.
Everything you think about her - she thinks too, and worse. So you can see how uncomfortable it is to be her. Not that you need to feel sorry for her. Not at all. She can't even fathom the pain that you're going through right now.
Take care and I hope you make it through court as best as you can.
H4F, thanks so much for that post. It came at the right time, I think.
Many people give me ideas for what JustJ has called "firecrackers" to pack with my wife's things. They come up with clever nasty things I can say to her when I run into her. And sometimes I'm tempted to be belligerent and stubborn and pick fights that aren't worth fighting.
Then I think of the past. I feel like through most of my time with my wife, we knew what was important. We didn't spoil any of our time together with meanness, or with chasing external attachments. I feel sort of I guess proud of how I led my life during those years. Looking at photos yesterday reminded me of that.
My wife has lost her ability to know what's important. She's creating memories that are likely to shame her someday. Her current path will no doubt lead her to a life that's - don't know how else to put it - less meaningful.
I'm not describing this as well as I'd hoped. I feel there's some kernel of truth in here that remains slippery. It has to do with how you see your own history once you have distance and perspective. Sometimes you say boy, I really did not know what was going on, I wasted energy on unimportant things. Other times you think, I really was making the most of my life there. That was well played.
I've had thoughts like that myself of late. I firmly believe that you are doing this as "rightly" as could be done.
It's about the legacy you will leave behind. You are making a stand for YOUR ethics and morality.
H4F:
It's always good 2 hear your take. Now that my W and I are finally talking (a little at a time), it is totally amazing just how self-involved she had become. I still don't know if she can change that MO. In the thick of it (still), it's hard 2 believe she can, but I try not 2 worry about it so much. I also realized several months ago that watching this conflicting process (her being generous so long as her generosity doesn't conflict with her selfishness) is perhaps sometimes the very pain I need 2 work through 2 get 2 my "other side".
Gray: I remember when we both came into this site about the same time. I read your posts all the time at the same time when I was going through so much hell myself. I've prayed for you and your wife. I hope you are well and are moving ahead.
During the worst of it for me back in the Summer I held on to this site like a security blanket. I'm in recovery with FWW now and things are a good bit better. Not perfect, but making strides. What happened to us should never happen to anyone, ever. Adultery is the worst thing someone can do to another loved one. If I'd been maimed or killed it would have been preferrable. But, I'm alive and I will keep on keeping on.
Gray: I remember when we both came into this site about the same time. I read your posts all the time at the same time when I was going through so much hell myself. I've prayed for you and your wife. I hope you are well and are moving ahead.
During the worst of it for me back in the Summer I held on to this site like a security blanket. I'm in recovery with FWW now and things are a good bit better. Not perfect, but making strides. What happened to us should never happen to anyone, ever. Adultery is the worst thing someone can do to another loved one. If I'd been maimed or killed it would have been preferrable. But, I'm alive and I will keep on keeping on.
Gray: I remember when we both came into this site about the same time. I read your posts all the time at the same time when I was going through so much hell myself. I've prayed for you and your wife. I hope you are well and are moving ahead.
During the worst of it for me back in the Summer I held on to this site like a security blanket. I'm in recovery with FWW now and things are a good bit better. Not perfect, but making strides. What happened to us should never happen to anyone, ever. Adultery is the worst thing someone can do to another loved one. If I'd been maimed or killed it would have been preferrable. But, I'm alive and I will keep on keeping on.
Hey gray, don't have much to else to add anymore but when I read what you wrote "My wife has lost her ability to know what's important. She's creating memories that are likely to shame her someday. Her current path will no doubt lead her to a life that's - don't know how else to put it - less meaningful." For some reason, it made me think of the dream I had saturday night. It was actually kind of disturbing to me. I dreamed that my ex-husband turned gay. That he did realize the horror of all the things he had done and all the justifications, not to mention that his R w/the OW didn't pan out and that his only choice left was to become gay. He had earrings in both ears and was really really skinny, poor, and just generally pathetic looking and acting. I'm not saying that anyone who is gay is skinny, poor, and pathetic but that's what my ex looked like in my dream which is opposite of who he last was except maybe poor and that's not to say there's anything wrong with being poor.
i may have put my foot in my mouth a few times but hopefully what i said made some sense. the thing about being poor was based on the fact that one of the justifications or reasons my ex gave me for never following me here was because I had a good job and didn't need him. also another reason he gave to get the divorce over with quickly was so that i would have more money. i came back each time and told him that i may make good money but it was not just not meant for me, it was supposed to be for the both of us.
the only reason why i even had the dream was because i had received an email from one of my ex SIL. of course it was one of those that you check one box and it sends the message to everyone in your address book. she actually did that before about 6 months ago and just ignored it figuring she would realize it later. but then i got this other one and honestly i just didn't want to get any emails from her or anyone in their family so i thought about what i could say. of course i thought about how what i said would be perceived and if she would lie and tell my ex i was a real B or whatever, i even considered cc my ex on the email so he would know what i said but i decided against. I ended up saying "I think you sent this to me by mistake. It would probably be a good idea to remove me from your contact list. Thanks." but i was still worrying about what if any reply or backlash i would receive. As of today nothing yet.
anyway, i've yet to go through the pictures yet but that's about the only thing i have left to go through. i actually already had some pictures that i sent him but they were in frames. i haven't touched the albums yet. but right now ex seems to be trying to decide whether or not to renew his p.o. box so until then i'll hold off. but honestly i don't intend on keeping a whole lot of the pictures. i'm going to give him all the pictures of his family that i'm not in and pictures of just him. i will keep my wedding pictures and some of ther pictures of us together but i'm going to be selective.
bottom line is his decisions and choices are his and there's nothing i can do about or even want to. i have moved on w/my live and i'm ever happy i have done so. i do honestly hope that my ex is happy because if he's not or doesn't "get" happy then what a waste and how miserable will he truly be. hope he gets his life right with God to because that's the only one that he is ultimately accountable to.
I just took the last box of the sparrow's stuff out to the garage. I still have to leave two pieces of furniture she wants, but there's no room for them out there right now. The important thing is, I've finished it. I'm going down to the neighborhood bar for a good glass of beer.
It accelerates! I just sent my lawyer the details of a money offer to lay on the sparrow, which if she has time she'll write up and fax to sparrow's lawyer today.
This oughta make my head spin. It's going to be done in no time.
This hurts no less than it would if I had children. I am so sorry GC. You have hung in there through so much and I admire how your character has shown through. Feel good about who you are and mourn your losses. My prayers are with you. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
Definatly doesn't hurt less - I would agree with you there. The ONLY plus side to not having children is that there is the option to permanently sever all ties and move on without a constant 'in your face' update through the mouths of kids. When children are involved the ties can never be totally severed - and you have to put up with other people helping to raise your children. It's not more or less traumatic - it's just another venue of icky.
Gray - not that it's any consolation to you right now - but when I went through boxes of things and found pictures and reminders and notes etc... I found myself dealing with rushes of emotion as well. She can't help but be feeling much of the same way as you are - no matter how big of a bandaid she's tried to put on herself. It may not change her mind - but just know that this isn't as easy for her as she makes it out to be.
Any chance that, if they decide you DO need 2 pay with cash (ridiculous on the face of it), that you could make payments? Like, say, 5 bucks a month for the next 3000 years?
I say push back. (but then I'm feeling mischevous) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
2long, I'm wearing gloves to court next week. I hope the referee recognizes that since none of my assets are liquid, I should not be expected to make them so in order to keep my home.
There's a perfectly good solution where she gets her fair share, has some available as cash each year, and it's all done.
Thanks, 2long. This is beyond fog. This is just horrible.
If she insists on cash, and if the court agrees, I lose the house, and she gets much less than I'm offering her now. MUCH less. Realtor commissions and capital gains taxes (owned the house < 2 yrs) will eat up most of it.
Can you hold the house hostage.....so to speak. What I mean is, can the court dictate how much to sell the house for? Or can you agree to give her half the value of the sale "once the sale is complete" and then decide the house value at lets say.....75K more than the realtor's appraisal .... then sit on it until it sells for that much (practically never) and then sparrow then takes 1/2. It may prompt her to take the path of least resistance.
I've heard of similar negotiating tactics done here. I'm not intimate with the details on how it's done, but a clever lawyer would be.
Binder - maybe. The trouble is, I have a TON of work I'm planning on doing on the house. If I had the chance, I could put at least $30K of sweat equity into this place with a few months' hard work. It's the thing I've been holding out for. If I'm forced to sell now, that opportunity is lost, and my ability to buy another house is lessened.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can I get P.O.ed now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup....and I'd buy you a beer and listen to you rant if I could.
However...
I don't know how things work in the US regarding the financing/taxes/capital gains. We don't pay capital gains on our primary residence, but we also cannot use our mortgages as a tax deduction.
You might want to have a list of "incentives" to dangle in front of her....of course starting with a low ball...everything will look relatively better to her after that.
If she doesn't go for the annuity, is there any way to get her to commit to half the present value paid out in 6 mos. or so. Give her some up front money to satisy her immediate need for cash with an agreement to pay the balance in the 6 mos. That will give you the renovation time and still put you in the prime sales time.
I wish you luck in this. I know personally that my house holds some reminders for my, but it also is my sanctuary. It would be tough for me to leave, I have no doubt the same applies to you.
Sparrow expects me to buy her out of the house with cash, rather than with my annuity. Even though she knows that this cash does not exist. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What about other options to get cash? Second mortgages? Credit cards? Family loan, etc. Do you have a life insurance policy with cash value? I am getting a small amount from mine - after all, who do I need to protect now?
How about an IRA? I think you can take $$ from an IRA without penalty if you pay it back within 60 days - and I think there may be a hardship option too. You might need a financial planner rather than an attorney on this part of it!
I have a tax-deferred annuity. I can't touch it. Whatever share of it sparrow gets, she can start to draw on immediately without penalty. But only a little at a time. No huge pile of cash.
I don't see how a judge can tell me, you've got all these non-liquid assets, now turn them into cash. The sparrow has no financial obligations aside from rent, a car payment, and auto insurance. She makes good money and has to have a huge net positive cashflow. I hope the court will look at my finances and look at hers and say look sister, you have no need for this cash. You'll take the annuity and like it.
Stupidhead sparrow, it's an awesome annuity. I've never seen anything like it. The thing just grows and grows and grows.
I think she may assume I can empty it out, like a 401k. She's about to learn otherwise.
I'm going in for a fight. I'm going to be pleasant and upbeat and indignant if necessary, and I'm going to have all the information.
I think at this point I'm the only one who knows all the details, the only one who's broken it down. Here's our net worth, here are all the ways it can be divided, end of story.
I don't even know how it will be decided. Maybe things will get hashed out on Tuesday, and when she understands everything she'll get a clue.
I went out and split a bottle of wine with Amelia tonight. At first I was so angry I could barely talk. I mellowed out nicely eventually... she's a swell girl.
As SH would say just be pleasant and matter of fact, business like even. At this point you know it's over so just don't give her any ammunition to make you look bad (which is hard for us all to imagine here knowing you). As far as what I know about capital gains tax, just because you sell a home doesn't mean you always have to pay it. Look into it more but I believe the stipulation is that you only have to pay capital gains tax if your home sells for $250K or more or maybe that you clear $250k from the sale of the house. We didn't have to pay it either time we sold our house and these were in different states, different price and proceeds. so like I said, check it out more.
i don't come here much anymore and probably within the next few weeks I'll muster up a goodbye post but not right now. continue to keep "us" posted and as always prayers to you, RR
Just a little word of encouragement here. After reviewing "Division of Assets" laws for your state, they do not usually force one party to give the other party a "pile of cash". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> It's usually much more like this:
List all Assets in Column A List all Debts in Column B List the values/equity in Column C
List what is going to the husband in Column D List what is going to the wife in Column E
Do D and E roughly equal???
See, there is no "requirement" that you present her with a pile of liquid cash. If there were, then I'd say that you require her to present you with a liquid pile of cashe--she's the one who's leaving! Nope, in real life the reason people do sometimes sell the marital home is because that's the only or major asset, and there are no other assets to balance it out.
For example, in my instance here in the Rocky Mtn. state, I got a car and exH got an SUV; I got my debts and he got his; I got furniture and he got furniture; he got one big asset that we bought as a family with his inheritance money (and personally, I agreed to let it go); we had no life insurance or annuities or retirement accounts to split. See?? All there was to split was the house, and we had many, many several thousand of equity--no way for one of us to buy out the other. So, we sold it and split it.
Thus, my good guess, and I'm not a lawyer but I have been around this block a time or two with several people on this forum, is that if you can put as much in her column as you put in your column, then that's a reasonable offer. Her DEMANDING liquid cash is an UNreasonable offer. Now, you can never tell what a judge is going to do (it's unpredictable!!!) but they usually go with what they've done in the past and reasonable.
Thanks, CJ... I hope you're right, and I hope you feel better right away!
Tonight I spent some time with car4love and saw the baby. Guess what? OM is still behaving strangely. Car4love is fine though. She's tired, little one doesn't let her sleep much. Doesn't see many grownups except for OM.
It's going to be nice to finally hear one day that this affair has crapped out.
Ech, feeling terrible. Since last night I've had this pain in my chest, sort of from one shoulder to the other and up the back of my neck to my temples. Feels like heartburn.
Stupidly, I ate total garbage all weekend. I usually eat very healthy food, and I think my body is not liking what I've put in it recently. Last night I drank a bunch of water and went to bed.
Woke up with the pain very early this morning, and unable to stay asleep, got up and came to work. Had yogurt and fruit for breakfast. Still hurting. Took an aspirin. If it doesn't go away by afternoon I think I'll go see a doctor. Pretty sure it's just heartburn and an achy head from the anxiety and bad food. No big whoop. Taking better care now...
The mortgage guy called. Let's just say he's cooked up a pretty good deal for me.
Only barrier is my wife's desire for cash.
I'm trying to relax, but the tension is like nothing I've ever felt. Surreal. Not pleasant. I'll be a rock tomorrow though. I'm not going to frown and glare, but I am gonna fight for myself.
Do what you said, but consider adding something like this:
hcii, when he saw his WW in DV court for the last time, when the judge said it was final, said 2 her: "Thank you for the best of the last 14 years." He wasn't angry or bitter, he was just grateful for the good they had. His W broke down in tears.
...but then within a couple of months, she remarried - NOT 2 the OM! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
hcii's doing very well, last I heard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
2long... I'm angry. There's no denying it. I have compassion for my W, but she's trying to hurt me here. I have to use my anger only when I need it for protection.
No sighing " frowning " eye-rolling " tooth-sucking " glaring " lip-biting " knuckle-cracking (especially my thumbs) " sarcasm " sputtering " tsking " head shaking " whining
You are doing great despite the odds...keep going GC...so it will be all over... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I pray for the same things SS said and that you will continue to be able to look back and not regret the actions you've taken because what sparrow does is her choice and she has to live with it.
Thanks everyone. I just slept for 11 hours. I dreamed the sparrow came back and said she'd do anything to fix our M. She agreed to everything. We missed our court appearance because we were together, talking about how to start over.
I got a 5 gal bucket of strength, and fotrutide on sale. I'll send you some across the fiber optic lines - maybe it'll even come to your cell phone while you are in court.
God was I nervous. I walked down the hall and there she sat. She looks awful. Her eyes are black, her hair just hangs there. She gave me a small, closed-mouth smile, and I didn't return it. I wanted to, but I couldn't. I just looked her in the eyes and then sat down.
I woke up angry with her, but now I just feel terribly sad for her. She looks diminished. She looks whittled down to nothing. I don't feel sad for myself right now at all. I'm not going to lose my house. I'm not going to lose much of anything, except for her.
Yeah, she's hurt me more than I ever imagined someone would hurt me, and she's the last person I'd have thought would do it. But all my tears are for her right now. Don't tell me I'm wonderful for feeling that way. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
Nothing was decided today, except that the lawyers will conference call with the judge on April 1 (!) about progress on reaching a settlement, if one has not been reached by then.
My lawyer is sending me to see a mortgage person to work out a few scenarios where I mortgage some cash for the sparrow, but she said the court will never force me to sell to satisfy my wife's desire for cash, nor will they force me to have an impossible cashflow situation.
I've been looking at the behavior of several WW's as described by their husbands here at MB, and I have to say, my girl has behaved quite differently from many, though there are similar cases.
My W has detached herself completely from me. When I put her in plan B, she howled and cried over the phone. And that was the last I heard of her, except through her lawyer.
OM is behaving like a complete jerk toward car4love, the sparrow looked miserable in court yesterday, and her best friend is turning away from her.
I don't expect my marriage to be saved. The sparrow has completely cooperated with plan B. She's made no effort to have anything to do with me. In essence, she's gone along with my having banned her from my life with little argument.
I feel guilty for doing it, too, because it hurt her. I know I had to do it, that if I hadn't she'd have just gone on torturing me and dismissing me and trying to eradicate me.
But I'm also hurt by her cooperation. It feels to me like it was awfully easy for her to detach.
True, I don't know what thoughts take her when she's alone and doesn't have OM around to cling to. She may even miss me, but my gut tells me she doesn't.
I don't know where I'm going with this. I only know how hard it is for me to give up this attachment, and I feel it isn't hard for her, and that hits me where it counts... if I was so wonderful and irresistable, how could she turn her back on me so easily?
Anyway, just a few thoughts knocking around tonight...
But I'm also hurt by her cooperation. It feels to me like it was awfully easy for her to detach.
Its natural to feel this way GC...all of us going through over a year of ordeal and heading to plan D...feels this way.
Our WS may look detach but i believe deep inside they also misses us and that guilt must be eating them big time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
if I was so wonderful and irresistable, how could she turn her back on me so easily?
Yeah, and if America is such a great country, how come we have natural born citizens spying for other contries, giving them secrets. Maybe we're not so great after all. Maybe this is really a lousy country?
Whatda think?
SS
Logic is logic, I always say.
<small>[ February 10, 2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>
"I've been looking at the behavior of several WW's as described by their husbands here at MB, and I have to say, my girl has behaved quite differently from many, though there are similar cases.
My W has detached herself completely from me. When I put her in plan B, she howled and cried over the phone. And that was the last I heard of her, except through her lawyer."
Sadly, your STBXW isn't unusual at all. There are many that have behaved similarly. One that comes 2 mind in a very eerily spooky way is ALostSoul's xW.
I bumped his LONG thread up so you could peruse it. Please do.
2long, I did read a bunch of the ALS thread. It made me so sad, even the end. You were right - the situations are striking in some of their similarities. And I see my life as being on a very similar trajectory.
I'm not going to stay married. There's not a chance of it. I've known that for a couple of months now. I don't like it. This strange combination of love, hate, and pity I feel is terribly unsettling. It's no fun to lose hope.
As I grieve, I know I'm going to be happy again, but I also know I'll carry this scar, this tragic firsthand knowledge of human weakness, that I didn't have before. I think I'd have preferred to go through life untroubled by it, and I don't get to do that now.
Thanks for bumping that thread. It would have been tough to swallow in the early days.
I'm glad I'm being tough and indignant now. I've earned the right to it, and I think it's the best way for me to communicate to the sparrow that what she knows, deep down, is true: her actions are destructive, cruel, and inexcusable.
I'll let go of my own anger in time. But right now, it's good for me and it's ultimately good for her. What do they call that? Wrathful compassion is it?
Another late night... okay, this might drag on a bit.
I feel I've reached some understanding about the sparrow today. I was remembering some of the times we had early in our relationship, remembering how good we were to each other, how it seemed at the time like nothing could come between us, and how I believed without a doubt that she would never let me down.
I hope she remembers those times too. I've sometimes felt these past months that she can't possibly... but I know she must. And I thought of something hope4future said a while back - that she probably thinks all the negative things about herself that I've thought about her, and worse.
Today my brother helped me carry the last thing she plans to take from the house to the garage. It's a big, very heavy vanity that we bought at the estate sale for our house.
The other day, in court, she complained that she couldn't just swing by and get her stuff because she has a small car and will need to get a truck. I thought of the people she might ask to help her. I know the top two contenders for the job (men with trucks she knows) will not want to help her. I've given her the message several times that I do not want OM in my garage or anywhere else near my house.
And I imagined her stuck with no help trying to load this stuff into a truck. This 5'2", 100-pound girl, on her own, struggling to lift this big old vanity.
It made me so sad for her, even though in all likelihood she'll get help, and probably even have OM help her, just come here during the day when she knows I won't be around.
Then I thought of how terrible she looked in court the other day.
I compared her life now to her life back when we were starting out. She had nothing to regret, nothing to be ashamed of. Now, as this affair stretches closer to having lasted a year, she has every reason in the world to be full of shame and regret, and maybe even is, though I don't know.
I thought again of those happier times for us, and wondered, just for the sake of wondering, how we could ever have times like those again, if somehow we wound up together in the end. Could she ever forgive herself and feel worthy of my love?
I know I could forgive her still, and that if she could forgive herself, we could have a happy life again, in time. I also know she does not share any such hope, and doubt she even wishes such a thing could happen.
I guess the point is, she knows I could forgive her, but even if she wanted to come back to me, and I accepted her, I don't think she has the ability to forgive herself.
My memories of the sparrow, so many good ones, taking up a third of my life so far, are all stained by what has become of us. I can't think about them without thinking about the promise they held, which turned out being broken and discarded.
This is what infidelity does. It takes the innocence and beauty from our relationships. It pollutes even our good memories. It scars its victims and does even worse to its perpetrators. It is relentless in this, so far at least.
What a tragedy for the sparrow. Redemption offered, but rejected by her. A doomed relationship that, even if it survives, will always have its origins recalled with shame and bitterness. A huge part of her life, abandoned and almost denied.
I don't know where this is headed, but I feel this new understanding I can't really explain...
See you lurking Gray, and just wanted to say "heh"!
Just read your last very philosophical post.
All I have to say is yep, I think you pretty much got it pegged.
Hope you had a nice weekend guy!
I'm trying to limit my MB "time", cuz I need to reconnect with my life a bit. Meaning I am completely ignoring my rentals (not to mention my real life friends) ... and have an offer on a house I want to sell, and haven't even jumped on it. They want to buy land contract which is fine with me, but I guess I need to actually move on it, or something. LOL
Right there with you on this one. The affair is as far reaching as a death in the family. Only worse because it is unnecessary.
Like a child run over by a drunk driver. What a waste.
I have seen friends killed in front of me. Doesn't even come close to the pain of the betrayal of an affair.
I am very well grounded. It takes quite a bit for me to even show you that I am rattled. But this affair has rendered me close to incapable of functioning. Never experienced that in my life.
And yes, half of my life that had good memories has been tarnished. I will even be reminded by the presence of my sons. All because someone was a little dissatisfied.
Know those prisoners in Fallujah who were humiliated? I'd have rather gone through that. It can be so cruel it should be criminal.
But I am venting and will stop, it is your journal. Just letting you know it's not wrong to hurt.
I'm glad that the ALS thread was of some use 2 you.
I sure got a lot out of it. It was probably the first "big thread" where I saw that no matter how hard some BSs work 2 save their M, it just isn't meant 2 be. BUT, and this is the important part of the whole process, ALS came out of the experience a helluva guy.
You will 2, regardless of how this ends.
It has been a pleasure 2 make your aquaintance in the ether like this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
Thanks, good people. I don't have much to report any more except divorce procedures and reflections... NCW - thank you especially for posting to me. I'm so sorry for the reason you've come back to MB.
The day we were in court, last Tuesday, opposing counsel mentioned that the sparrow was leaving for Germany that night (she goes there a few times a year for work), and was coming back tonight. I've finally, finally put the last item in the garage. Not one thing she's going to take is left in the house. I expect she might come grab a few things tomorrow.
There's a poem a friend showed me the night the sparrow said she wanted a divorce, back in early June of '04. I posted here like a maniac all that night (weaver was there, bless her heart), and I posted the poem then. Here it is:
The Purge Marge Piercy
Beware institutions begun with a purge, beware buildings that require the bones of a victim under the cornerstone, beware undertakings launched with a blood sacrifice, watch out for marriages that start with a divorce.
To break a champagne bottle over the prow of a boat is prodigal but harmless; to break a promise, a friendship much more exciting (champagne doesn't squeal); but doesn't the voyage require a lot of sightseeing and loot to justify that splatter?
Give it up for me, she says, give him up, give her up, look only in my eyes and let me taste my power in their anguish. How much do you love me? Let me count the corpses as my cat brings home mangled mice to arrange on my doormat like hors d'oeuvres.
But you know nobody dies of such executions. Your discarded friends are drinking champagne and singing off key just as if they were happy without you. One person's garbage is another's new interior decorating scheme. If she is your whole world, how quickly the sun sets now.
My reason for posting this again? I'm tempted, really tempted, to stick it in one of the drawers of the vanity. I know I probably shouldn't, but I don't know why I shouldn't. Is it somehow mean and gratuitous? The sparrow and OM took refuge in songs and movies about romance and the importance of "following your heart". I want to show my W a piece of art that isn't filled with excuses she can use.
Time to go to sleep. Gotta get up early for work, and it's already too late... night all.
Well gray, I've had a lot thoughts over the past month regarding your situation. I'm of the school that if all you can think about is telling someone what the should or should not do then it's time to move on. that's the place where i'm at. i know not everybody processes things and moves forward on the same level. i don't feel that i am anyone to say what you should or should feel at this point. i'm just feeling increasing frustration when i read your posts because of what i consider as you "holding on" and what i see as an attitude that doesn't know that things will get better.
so with that being said, this will be my last post to you. i'm not saying/doing this to be mean or curt but just because i KNOW people don't and cannot handle situations the same way. no one can ever walk in your shoes, they can have similar situations but never ever walk and experience the same thing as you. i only come to the boards now to follow your story becasue i wanted to see you progress to the next level. i do keep in touch with a few people from here through email. but i know enough and have read enough about you that you will eventually get to that level, there's no doubt in my mind.
i know you still have a lot of doubts/questions/concerns regarding your "relationship" or lack there of with God. But he does exist, he loves and cares for you, so much so that he gave his only son to die for you and me, the whole world in fact.
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
God is the best counselor of all and you can cast all you cares upon him and his son Jesus. take care and continued prayers to you, RR
I think my posts tend to have a lot of puzzle-solving and negativity in them, because I post when I'm feeling confused, hurt, and frustrated. They aren't representative of the way I'm going through life.
F'rinstance, this morning, all that business about sticking some crazy poem in a drawer for my W to find seemed just stupid.
As far as holding on... I'm letting myself grieve naturally. Right now that means a lot of anger and frustration. Intellectually, I've let go. Emotionally, not quite there. And on a practical level, I'm still married, still unavailable to the opposite sex, still alone. Holding on a little more comes with the territory.
So here are some things I like about my life, and positive things I look forward to.
I look forward to finishing my house restoration.
I look forward to spending evenings working on my boat out in the garage and listening to baseball games (after it gets warm).
I like being able to work on music whenever I want, even if that means I don't finish the laundry until tomorrow.
I like being able to go get a beer on a Wednesday night without it being a big deal.
I like falling asleep in front of the fireplace. In the summer, I like to sleep on the porch now and then. Sparrow never went for those kind of shenanigans.
I like having the radio on all the time.
I like going out for sushi (sparrow doesn't like it).
I really look forward to meeting women. Enough said.
And given the circumstances, I'm glad that I'm not going to have to deal with a depressed, withdrawn, surly wife for months or even years.
Oh, and another thing. I was happy to be denied some of those leisure activities and hobbies when I had a wife.
I haven't accepted the loss yet, RR. I'm still having those sudden realizations about things I'm losing. You know... I'll never play 500 with my in-laws at the cabin, ever again. Stuff like that.
I'll try to post more when I'm not cranky though, RR, just to prove I'm not pounding my chest in frustration and agony all the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
...but you shouldn't put it in the drawer. I'm glad you decided not 2 already.
For me, this board, iloveulove.com and SYMC have been the most helpful in dealing with my W's LTA. Better than counseling. Better even than coaching. Not because those aren't good, they are. But because I never really had a willing participant in any of that. I don't have a willing participant in posting 2 the boards, either, but it doesn't cost me anything and I can get feedback pretty much any time. That also requires a little more "responsibility" on my part, because none of the advice is "professional" and some of it may be pretty far off the mark. It IS easy 2 get embroiled in negativity with forums like this, but I think we all even2ally learn how 2 avoid that trap.
Upshot of all this rambling is that I think the positive things do come out in your posts, gc. I still enjoy coming 2 your threads.
I think you and I are a lot alike in that we are loyal, long after it makes sense to be.
I called off my wedding and asked exie to move out about the same time you found out about your WW's affair. I tried to date from eharmony but decided I am not ready. It's like I gave my heart to him and it got stuck there. It's still with him, so what can I do? Can't date because it doesn't feel good to me.
I went six years after I left my DD's dad before meeting exie, so I have a long loyalty thing when I really love someone.
I will continue to love exie until I stop loving him. Nothing I can do about it. My heart will fall in love again on it's own good time.
I've been through this before and have my daughter with whom I can pour out love and affection to. So I am probably going to be alone longer than you. You do not have a child, so you will fall in love again when love can't contain itself anymore, when it needs to be poured out onto another woman.
This place is good for a lot of reasons, I truly believe it is a positive thing unless it becomes an escape for avoiding your real life. It's an addiction for me, because I view it that way. But you know what? It's better than hanging out in the bars, which is about all there is to do up here in my neck of the woods for socializing when my little girl is with her dad.
It's true, weaver. My loyalty is a problem for me right now.
So here's a question... when will our lives, we BS-getting-dumped-for-good, when will our lives no longer seem to be diseased by infidelity?
Maybe WAT knows.
Four-day weekend coming!
Friday - seeing mortgage guy to figure out how to give the sparrow a pile of cash and still keep my house. Interviewing for a volunteer position at the hospital. Saturday - helping my friends move into their new house, their first.
I hope the sparrow gets the rest of her stuff. I need my garage! I'm emptying out the first floor of the house so I can fix the plaster, refinish the trim, and refinish the floors. It's going to be a huuuuuge mess.
So here's a question... when will our lives, we BS-getting-dumped-for-good, when will our lives no longer seem to be diseased by infidelity?
When there is a shift in perspective. "A Course in Miracles" says that a miracle is a shift in perspective.
Csue would know what I am talking about here.
For me that shift has come I think. Can't put it into words really but it's been a long time coming for me.
I now know that I will be okay, regardless if I find love again. And I also know that I have so much love to give that I will be able to give it again...and it will find me.
I now know that the basics will be provided. For example the bills will be paid, the leeky roof at the rental will get fixed and I will find a way to pay for it. I know if I lose my job, I will find another. My daughter will have what she needs, clothes, food etc.
I think I have again found faith in mankind. Not enough where I can actually read the paper, but enough to know that most people are good and decent. Most people will not betray another. And if it happens again I will survive it.....again.
It's tougher for you Gray, because you have been married all your adult life to the only person you have ever been in a serious relationship with. For you it is your very first broken heart which also happens to be the first time your life has been completely shattered. That's a very big wound.
Thursday morning I decided to quit smoking. Coming up on three days. Today will be tricky - spending the day with smokers.
This weekend I start real work on the house.
Yesterday I interviewed at the hospital. I'll be a volunteer in the ER. In my normal job I'm a respected authority. At the hospital... a gopher for the nursing staff.
Also working with a mortgage guy on giving the sparrow enough cash to make her satisfied. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Feeling very alone these days, but at least I have a lot to do. This seems a dark time, this final stretch before the divorce gets done. Midwinter, getting divorced, quitting smoking... a recipe for being surly. But I feel great about the direction things are going. Well, most things.
So you are a wimp for hanging on and hoping too long? Is that the stick with which you beat yourself?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So here's a question... when will our lives, we BS-getting-dumped-for-good, when will our lives no longer seem to be diseased by infidelity?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So here's the answer... It's NOT.
Your WIFE'S life is diseased by infidelity. Not yours. Yours in only affected by it. Just like if she had cancer. Doesn't mean YOU have it. Just means you had to support her through it.
Your SOUL is intact. Your "wimpiness" or "weakness" in hanging on too long is nothing more than God's insurance policy that you will be able to look in the mirror and say four simple words.
I DID MY BEST.
I don't know about you, but the day I can't live with MYSELF is the day I can no longer say those words. Other than that, with God's grace, I pretty much think I can live with ANYTHING. Doesn't mean things aren't going to hurt. Doesn't mean there will not be trials. There will be.
NCW heard an excellent sermon TODAY. God's timing can be amazing.
The sermon was contrasting the difference between a TRIAL (which you faced) and a TEMPTATION (which the sparrow faced). Here are the important points...
A TEMPTATION is devised by Satan to get you to sin, but a TRIAL is designed by God to get you to shine.
A TRIAL will strengthen you, but a TEMPTATION will weaken you.
A TRIAL, at times, is unbearable in your own strength, which is why you turn to God. A TEMPTATION is never unbearable, God always gives us an escape route, but we must choose to take it.
A TRIAL is a test to build us. A TEMPTATION is a trick to destroy us.
I have been on this board for almost a year. I don't mean this to offend your, Gray, I really don't. But notice that there are not many calls to you for help or advice. I don't think your gifting lies in the advice department.
But let me also say this... You have been a FIXTURE here since I have been on this board. There are those of us with the verbal gifting, evangelism, wisdom, whatever you want to call it.
Then there are those who are the living examples of the annointing. They preach by DOING, not saying. That, my friend, is what YOU have done.
You may not be one of the "Dear Abby's" of MB, but your impact, your importance to those of us here is truly one of the greatest.
When I, and most others here, think of GrayCloud, I think of...
Patience
Perserverence
Forgiveness
Uncompromising (Integrity, I mean. Not stooping to a lower level.)
Caring
Concern
This does not come from the advice you give, but from the life you live. You may feel alone now. My bet? God is taking His time finding the NEXT Mrs. Cloud. After the witness you have been to us, I'm sure He will want to get it right.
Deepest regards, as it is much harder to DO than SAY,
Some people keep journals, especially when they're in a crisis or going through a big change in life. I kept one for a while.
The journal started to become a file of all the things I wanted to tell my WW. Descriptions of my pain. Discussions of how often affairs fail, and why. Reminders that the revised history she was composing was inaccurate. Attempts to demolish any justification she may have concocted.
For a while, back in the summer, whenever I thought of some new thing, some brilliant point, I'd try to get it into that journal.
A week or so ago, I started putting some of the things in the journal into a letter to the sparrow. I wrote, and stopped, and wrote some more, and so on for a few days.
Then over the weekend I opened the file up, and it occurred to me... this letter was no use at all. I felt foolish for having started it.
I was trying to cheat. When you try to resolve a beef with someone who has hurt you, they must give you chances to describe your point of view. They must be willing to "hear your pain."
I was going to force the sparrow to hear mine. The letter would be devastating.
Now I see... saying these things to her could only serve a purpose if she volunteered to hear them.
I don't get to tell her anything. I just have to accept things for what they are, and try not to let my frustration and my need for resolution rule me any more.
I may still send her a goodbye letter after the divorce is done, but if I did it today it would be simple and short:
I love you. Please forgive me for my mistakes. I wish you hadn't done this. You hurt me profoundly. I accept your decisions, because I have to. But I don't excuse you. Bye.
Your short letter, is the sort, that would haunt me the rest of my life.
That's because of the kind of person you are Noodle.
I wonder if unrependent WS's are even able to internalize anything even remotely related to causing another pain.
My DD's dad thinks I am the slime of the earth. I honestly think that now he would gladly take my DD from me and not look back. To him I am the devil in desguise, or worse a non-entity. And I have done nothing but treat him fairly and decently since I was pregnant.
So what effect parts of the journal would have on the sparrow is questionable. I for one wouldn't waste my time and energy with sending her anything, I would make her a non-entity. Not worthy of putting pen to paper.
But that is just me, the jaded one. (lately it seems anyway)
Weaver, that's remarkable. I think you're right. They lose their ability to have empathy, at least for the people they themselves have hurt. Hope4future has written about this.
I don't have the feeling the sparrow thinks I'm slime. I reckon she considers me sanctimonious and disagreeable though.
Maybe a short farewell letter, but no magna carta. We'll see...
I've been where you are, I understand what you've done. I've been there, I did it too. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having been faithful to your marriage. Nothing at all wrong with simply saying, "No really, I meant it."
And now that it's ending, I can certainly understand trying to figure out what to say.
We all do these things differently, but here's a few thoughts for you.
Whatever letter you write, write it for you, not for her. Write the ending of your marriage, the cutting of the bonds. Write YOUR choices, not her mistakes. Write what YOU are doing and want, not what she is doing and wants.
Write that letter. That one will set you free, if you let it.
Write it not about your hurts, but about your healing. Write about freedom. Write the future, not the past. Better yet, write the present.
If you send anything 2 her at all, send something that clearly acknowledges the ending that's occurred, but don't burn the bridge she could come back on if she ever wakes up, because I'll bet you'll try 2 help if she ever asks for it.
RAR! These lawyers are p$$ng me off. Especially sparrow's lawyer, Cruella. She's nagging me, through my lawyer, to hurry. I've been actively working with a mortgage broker to try and find some way of giving the sparrow what she wants, and what do I get? "Faster! Faster!"
The court already has set a deadline for this agreement, so I don't know what the additional nagging is about. Cruella claims it's for the purpose of filing 2004 taxes, but that doesn't make any sense.
Cruella also told me to hurry it up after court, when we were leaving. I just glared at her. Here I am, feeling like hell, and she's trying to crack a whip at me.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Twelve days ago, I quit smoking. I didn't want to quit, but I wanted to want to quit. So I motivated myself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You go guy! I love to dring wine and smoke cigarettes. What a drag to have to quit because we are adults now, and must be mature. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Weaver, I made pasta and tomato sauce tonight (I make amazing tomato sauce), and cracked a cab that's been on my counter for a couple of weeks.
I finished my pasta and topped off my wine... and it's a small miracle I didn't put on my shoes and walk, hell, run, hell, sprint to the corner for smokes.
The physical addiction has been no problem. I've always been a light smoker. But these rituals I have to abandon are such a bummer.
I know I can't have cigarettes any more, light smoker or not. The guck I hawk up every morning before I get into my car is proof enough of that.
But I still have that little devil on my shoulder saying, hey dude, cigarettes are a nice little bonus every now and then. You can just have one after a dinner. Why should you deprive yourself? You didn't smoke that much.
Sorry, I can't help myself. I just can't give them up.
Would everyone please lay off lawyers. I know it's funny and all but my late father was a wonderful, humanitarian lawyer who everyone loved and it really p's me off when everyone finds it hilarious to have a go at lawyers in general.
We had such a lawyer like your dad in town. Everyone loves him and I was told that even the girls who work at Friend of the Court would always put his stuff through first, sit on the lawyers whom they didn't like. I guess games are played depending on how likeable the lawyer is, anyway...
I called him hoping to retain him for something I am going through now (just to get him in case I need one) and he left town. Entered a monestary and is now going to be a monk! Can you believe it?
PS. you'll quit smoking when you are ready to, must not be your time yet.
Today I received an email from my W about picking up things this weekend, forwarded through her lawyer and then through mine. She doesn't use her sister as an intermediary any more, just the lawyers.
When I read my lawyer's message, and saw there was a message written by the sparrow attached to it, I had that old familiar feeling. A wave of pain and grief washed over me.
In the message, she referred to the garage where her things are stored as "Gray's garage".
She's found a way to not feel sorry for doing this, I think. I hate that. I hate that she sees our time together as "growing up", as she puts it. I hate that she thinks her nasty affair is okay. I hate that she can move on with her life and feel like everything is fine. I have that feeling, that she feels it's all okay. I don't think she's going to have any moments of clarity. I have already become a distant memory to her. I can't express how much that hurts me. It's like an eradication.
I'm okay, folks. I'm just putting on some heavy mileage. I heard a song the other day... a woman tells a man she likes his eyes, and he says,
Evil genius that I am, I post at midnight on Friday when I'm guaranteed the lowest number of potential responses.
Sparrow comes over tomorrow to get the last of her belongings.
Still hurts, yeah.
So I've been thinking of my last communication with the sparrow. I'm not obsessed by it, but in idle moments, I think about what I'd like to tell her. I plan to write a short letter to her when the divorce is final.
I don't plan to focus on the past, and on negative, horrible stuff. But nonetheless, tonight, I want to write some "venty" things (but believe you me I have no intention of actually putting such a screed to paper and giving it to my wife):
Getting served her divorce papers, I felt like somebody had come to kill me. It really did feel just like I imagine it would feel to have a hit man come to the door.
Every step I've had to take - opening a new bank account, hiring a lawyer, arranging for an appraisal, setting up meetings with a mortgage broker, getting a new loan for my car, having her name removed from the gas bill, changing the locks, telling my friends, telling my family, reaching out to strangers for help, reaching out to her family for support, telling my boss, seeing a doctor to get antidepressants, finding a personal counselor... each of these steps was the result of some measure of coercion, each involved some degree of humiliation for me.
In short, each of the things I've had to do has injured me.
Love is a choice. The sparrow is dead wrong to believe otherwise. I choose to love her. I'm a better man for it. I'll soon choose to stop loving her. Knowing the real nature of love in this way will make me a better partner, and will protect my relationships in the future.
I feel vaccinated against infidelity. I know that I will never do it. There's simply no way it will happen.
I have never violated my promises to the sparrow. I have never given any of myself to another woman to the exclusion of my wife.
I have never intentionally done her harm or wished pain on her. I have never broken my loyalty to her. I would never knowingly hurt her for my own pleasure.
With her gone from my life, I will also never excuse her for what she's done. That doesn't mean I'm not forgiving. It means that without making amends for what she's done, she will never be off the hook as long as either of us lives.
What happened did not just happen. It was the result of conscious decisions, decisive actions done by the affairees that they knew would hurt people, and they did them anyway.
I try to be strong and principled. I try to face my problems. I acknowledge my faults and try to overcome them. I care about other people. I try to protect their feelings. I try to consider their needs, their wishes. I hope I do okay at these things. Sometimes I succeed at this, sometimes I fail.
I try to be courageous. Sometimes I surprise myself with my courage. Sometimes I'm surprised by my cowardice.
Well my heavens, it's late. Thanks for reading my vent. Worry not - I won't tell the sparrow most of this stuff. This one was for me, now.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> .... She's found a way to not feel sorry for doing this, I think. I hate that. I hate that she sees our time together as "growing up", as she puts it. I hate that she thinks her nasty affair is okay. I hate that she can move on with her life and feel like everything is fine. I have that feeling, that she feels it's all okay. I don't think she's going to have any moments of clarity. I have already become a distant memory to her. I can't express how much that hurts me. It's like an eradication....
I will tell you something. In the quoted excerpt above, you state that you don't think that the Sparrow will ever have a moment of clarity. Well, bud, you got that one, all wrong :-)
She will never be able to eradicate you from her mind. She is stuck, permanently, with the memory of you, and the kind way you have treated her this past year.
You may not believe this right now, but your memory and the memory of how she has treated you, will haunt her until the day she dies.
What they have done will manifest in all areas of their psyche, in their internal and external world.
This is a universal truth, the one that says "as we sow, so shall we reap".
She and he are to be pitied really. Well pitied as much as you can pity someone who has caused such pain and destruction to others. And who have stolen the rightful family from little babies. And who would continue to try and destroy a young mother who has already suffered so much, and who must provide a stable, happy life for these babies.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> ...each of these steps was the result of some measure of coercion, each involved some degree of humiliation for me....In short, each of the things I've had to do has injured me.
I feel vaccinated against infidelity. I know that I will never do it. There's simply no way it will happen.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can relate to both of these points and your choice of words is especially powerful. You do a wonderful job of finding the right insights... and seeing clearly what the whole picture is, and the implications. ("I can see clearly now, the rain is gone.... boom boom boom..." - sorry, this song is stuck in my head but does seem appropriate!)
I see your recovery peeking over the hills - soon to charge over the top like a brigade.
It makes me sad to see you hurting like this, it's not fair, you're a wonderful person and none of this should be happening to you.
I hope that you find happiness Gray, I know that you will, I know that there is someone out there that will see how special you are and will appreciate the qualities that you have.
One day soon the sparrow will realize what she's given up.
Thanks, everyone. DV, I have Led Zeppelin in my head today... "Your Time is Gonna Come". Weaver oughta like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Caren, thank you. Do you see what it means, that you put energy into other peoples' troubles when your own life is in such turmoil? I remember when you first got here. You do seem like a different person now. You seemed so confused back then! Which... well, I don't blame you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Weaver, the offense that my wife has committed against another family still shocks me. I'm sorry enough for myself, but I'm an adult and I don't need my wife. Those two innocent children have been cheated out of their family, and I'm in a state of continual disbelief over it.
She comes today for the last of her stuff. She may be here right now.
I had a plan. I was going to get some chores finished, then skedaddle. I would leave my car parked in the street, and walk to the coffee shop for a while. My friend would pick me up there and drive me to band rehearsal.
I got up, got started preparing. Then car4love called. We haven't spoken in a couple of weeks, and we wound up talking for a good long while. Suddenly, it was 11:00. I showered, ran to the car wash. A long line of cars idled. The whole world is washing cars this morning. I started to feel anxious. I put on the Beastie Boys' Ill Communication and suddenly just totally relaxed. I got back here a little after noon, and thought, why should I run away from my house just because she's here?
I'm staying. I'm living my life. I'm doing laundry. She'll know I'm here. I will not look out the window and see if she's here. Nor will I avoid being seen. Will she think I'm spying on her? Will she keep one eye on the house the whole while? I don't care. I'm staying.
Case anybody's worried about me, I really feel okay. I have a lot I'm looking forward to.
Thanks again folks. Not being a real big help on the boards these days - it just doesn't always work for me any more, being so caught up in all of it.
Just wanted to drop you a line....you have done so well...so much control over your life....I understand the issue re: wanting to be present and not wanting to be present...sparrow's presence has some effect but less and less each time. I look forward to the time when I can practice full detachment and this has no power over me...it is less and less each day.
The thing I like the best about what you said...I am living my life...yep...that is it....
You have worked on you...you have become a better person....you have clean laundry and a car....you can live with yourself the rest of your life...knowing you did everything you could and then some......
Signs of spring and rebirth are all around us...signaling a fresh start, renewal. You have learned so well and put the situation in its place. A whole life is more than one experience.
If you get a chance, try to do something fun this weekend....your chores are done...go out and play..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Stay strong, GC. There is a weather change on the horizon and you're starting to feel it. Those words that you wrote to sparrow? They're not hateful. Don't think that they are. Do think that they're the beginning of the rising of your phoenix from the ashes of your marriage. You are absolutely right that each step you've taken has been, in part, coerced.
Now, though.... now you'll begin to take the steps of your own accord. Now you'll begin to fly. When the divorce is done and the last of the threads of your marriage finally cut, then you will begin to live again.
It's incredibly hard, walking alongside the death of a marriage, knowing that YOU will go on even if it doesn't. It's hard to stay present with it, hard to stay in the moment and aware of each separate strand of agony as it plays across your existence.
Each bit that you truly feel, truly accept, truly engage with, though, becomes a part of a weave of wisdom and strength that no one can ever take from you. It is utterly worthwhile, this stuff that you're doing. I hope to God that you never have to live through something like this again. But while you are -- then LIVE it like it'll never happen again. Learn every single thing you can from what's going on. And find compassion in it. You're getting there. More and more and more, you are. It's really cool.
***Getting served her divorce papers, I felt like somebody had come to kill me. It really did feel just like I imagine it would feel to have a hit man come to the door.
Every step I've had to take - opening a new bank account, hiring a lawyer, arranging for an appraisal, setting up meetings with a mortgage broker, getting a new loan for my car, having her name removed from the gas bill, changing the locks, telling my friends, telling my family, reaching out to strangers for help, reaching out to her family for support, telling my boss, seeing a doctor to get antidepressants, finding a personal counselor... each of these steps was the result of some measure of coercion, each involved some degree of humiliation for me.
In short, each of the things I've had to do has injured me.
Love is a choice. The sparrow is dead wrong to believe otherwise. I choose to love her. I'm a better man for it. I'll soon choose to stop loving her. Knowing the real nature of love in this way will make me a better partner, and will protect my relationships in the future.
I feel vaccinated against infidelity. I know that I will never do it. There's simply no way it will happen.
I have never violated my promises to the sparrow. I have never given any of myself to another woman to the exclusion of my wife.
I have never intentionally done her harm or wished pain on her. I have never broken my loyalty to her. I would never knowingly hurt her for my own pleasure.
With her gone from my life, I will also never excuse her for what she's done. That doesn't mean I'm not forgiving. It means that without making amends for what she's done, she will never be off the hook as long as either of us lives.
What happened did not just happen. It was the result of conscious decisions, decisive actions done by the affairees that they knew would hurt people, and they did them anyway.
I try to be strong and principled. I try to face my problems. I acknowledge my faults and try to overcome them. I care about other people. I try to protect their feelings. I try to consider their needs, their wishes. I hope I do okay at these things. Sometimes I succeed at this, sometimes I fail.
I try to be courageous. Sometimes I surprise myself with my courage. Sometimes I'm surprised by my cowardice.***
If you want to give her last letter, I think this is the perfect one to use. Don't change a word. This says it all. Mulan
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...vaccinated against infidelity.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like that statement.I feel the same way.
Another similarity is that I feel that my WH is ready to move on and be fine too.That our marriage,best friendship and 20 years together was a "primer".That our whole histroy has now just become a dream.That he can now go out and try to be the model man(who is he kidding?).
He once told me that he was grateful for the time we had together.Why doesn't that sound comforting?
Anyway,I know he hasn't changed and even if he stays with the homewrecker forever now,it's still a sleazy and scummy beginning born out of the pain and suffering of so many.I would not want to be him.
Sparrow might not be looking back but her past will catch up with her.One day.
Hope the removal of stuff went ok for you.Keep us posted.
She came, I think while I was there. My garage is behind my house. I was careful not to look out the back windows as I went about my business. Then I took a passing glance out to the street on the side of my house, and saw several cars, parked all helter-skelter. I saw what I think is OM's mother's car. I saw what I think is the sparrow's cousin's car. I froze. Seeing what looked to be evidence of the two families with their forces joined got my heart racing, and I became suddenly very shaky. I sat down for a minute, contemplated going out to make sure OM wasn't here.
I don't remember if I decided what to do. It was a hazy minute or two. When I got up and looked out again, the cars were gone. Like a magic trick. Poof! All gone.
Yes, O, I think sparrow is like your WH... the memory of our years is just a dream to her. It doesn't matter... it's over, and that's all.
I spent the rest of the afternoon and evening at my friend's house, tinkering with amplifiers and watching movies with a couple pals. I felt okay after I got out of the house.
Funny thing... there I was, all the strength gone from my legs. Fifteen minutes later, I was yukking it up with my friend while we drove across town. What else could I do?
I'm used to getting hurt now. It's like getting a whipping. I know it isn't over, so I just suck it up and take comfort in knowing it will end soon.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will also never excuse her for what she's done. That doesn't mean I'm not forgiving. It means that without making amends for what she's done, she will never be off the hook as long as either of us lives.
What happened did not just happen. It was the result of conscious decisions, decisive actions done by the affairees that they knew would hurt people, and they did them anyway. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I fear for her.
So here's the thing. This is for all the "stuffers" who might read this journal.
I have in my life been a stuffer. There were things I wasn't crazy about in my M. Rather than confronting them, I stuffed them. As a consequence I came close to having an EA. How close you say?
I vividly remember having fantasies of being on my deathbed and asking for this OW so I could thank her for being my friend, tell her I'd miss her. That's getting pretty freakin' close.
For the record, I didn't let it get anywhere.
Sparrow had said, before we were married, that if I ever had feelings for someone else, she wanted me to deal with it in private and not tell her about it. And that's what I did. I reinforced my boundaries, kept my loyalty where it belonged, and nothing ever came of it.
But I was still stuffing. All the things I didn't like about my marriage remained in the back of my mind, to swirl around during idle moments. I didn't want to deal with them. Troubling my wife with them would have been petty and unappreciative and selfish. So there they stayed.
But the sparrow is the master stuffer.
She lost her father when she was 16.
She has never visited his grave. She was there when they buried him, and she's never gone back.
She always spoke admiringly about her father. But she also said he told her not long before he died that she was a disappointment to him. She was a troubled adolescent.
She used to be a "cutter" as a teenager.
All these things from her past, she spoke about them very little. When she told me about them, she downplayed them.
She has former friends who want nothing to do with her.
She always accused the former friends of pettiness and seemed to have no regrets, though I have a feeling she did some regrettable things to damage those old friendships.
Anything that happened with her father, it's been stuffed. Anything that happened with her old friends, it's been stuffed.
And the things that made her dissatisfied in our marriage, she stuffed those too. Then used them as an excuse to have an affair and divorce me.
Stuff, stuff, stuff. I think she can also stuff any bad feelings she has over what she's done during the last 10 months.
Yesterday I received a notice from the county where OM lives. There's an unpaid parking violation on the sparrow's car from December, when it was still in my name. It seems she left it parked on the street when they were trying to plow, something like that.
In five days the state will come after me for the money and start sticking me with penalties and additional fees.
Nice, huh? It's not enough money to involve the lawyers, so I emailed sparrow's sister about it. It shouldn't be a big deal, but I am FURIOUS.
I know why, I think. It's because so much of my life is occupied by things I have to do because of her affair. Packing her stuff, talking to my lawyer, moving car loans and titles around, calling OM's county to inquire as to why they say I owe them money in "State of MN vs. Gray".
None of these are things I'm doing on my terms, because of my choices.
And plus the only reason I know about this is because she has no consideration for me at all, which I've known for a long time, but this was just another reminder.
I spoke with the court clerk, and she muttered knowingly when I explained, you know, like, "Yyyyyep", but she offered me no slack.
I emailed sparrow's sister; here's an excerpt:
On 12/30/04, she received a parking violation ..., what they call a "snowbird ticket", presumably when her car was parked ... at the home of her affair partner. I've received a notice ... If the ticket is not paid by Tuesday, 3/15, a fee ... will be applied, and the state will attempt to seize the funds from me.
Maybe I snuck a DJ in there, so what? I have a license for it.
I hope to not care about this eventually. But: I am troubled by the likelihood that the sparrow's affair will work out. So is car4love.
Here's why I think it could.
Both of them stuff their problems. They have acknowledged this, to a point. But I know my wife still has some old guilt and pain stuffed away from before we were married that she has never dealt with.
They coordinated their efforts in the beginning. They conspired. They met with us almost simultaneously to say they wanted divorces. They did this so they could have sex, I think. I have a feeling they didn't do it before then, and they used that as a loophole. It isn't an affair because they said the D word before they hopped in bed. Though I don't know that.
They both seem to have accepted that there is going to be a period of pain and guilt, after which everybody will be okay.
They pretended they were just good friends for a while, with some success, until the affair was exposed.
They think it was okay because they didn't mean to fall in love. It just happened. Nobody's fault. Good/bad luck.
They both made a token effort to work on their marriages to me and car4love, but quickly gave up when withdrawal was too painful.
They are both very generous in relationships. They may not be champs at satisfying the right ENs, but they do try hard.
Why am I so haunted by this worry, and when will I stop caring?
Okay, thanks for indulging a bit of late-night musing...
I am too new here to give advice but yesterday I was researching old posts and found Weaver's very first one. I think it might provide some insight into what happens as a result of an A.
GC, I pray for the day that you will not care what sparrow is doing. Poor car4love will deal with the betrayal the rest of her life because of the child. {{GC}}
I'm with you on the fact that we have all these loose ends to tie up when dealing with a WS.It's so unfair but,you know,life isn't black and white. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I can't tell you how much time and energy I have spent the last few months basically running this D show on my own.It has been dreadful trying to get my WH to certain things and he is really just letting me do all the work now.But,I don't care at this point.Like his indecision about ending it once and for all with the happy homewrecker or filing for a D,I had to take charge and be in control.There were so many name changes and new account issues that I had to do to get his name off stuff it was mind boggling.
Anyway,the issue of the adulterers working out in the long run,well,even if they do manage to stick together somehow,is it right,honest,moral,ethical,just,appropriate....? No,not one bit.So,at the end of the day,would it really matter if they stay together? Would you rather be them in any way? Just because they stay together does not make it right nor will it wash away the slime that their "relationship" began in or all the pain they caused.
I think many WS's do put a veneer of "acceptance" on what they did and try to fool themselves because they have to in order to survive.It will not hide the truth though.And Truth is what matters.So in the end,I would much rather be assured knowing I have done the right things in my life then be with another adulterer pretending that life is just moving on.We all make mistakes but the difference is that these two have not made ammends and done the right thing.You cannot build anything solid and honest from that shaky ground.Sometimes it takes years for it to crumble but the stats do not lie.They are there to remind us that this kind of circumstance does not go unpunished.
I would still rather be me and live honestly and justly than have those terrible mistakes on my record,if only that my DD's can look me in the eyes and I can look at them right back and feel good about who I am and how I have behaved in this life.For God as well.
I think you may stop caring about sparrow and the OM when you realize that what they have is not worth fighting for or living for.They do not "win",anything.That's how I look at it anyway.
Just spoke with car4love. It seems OM and sparrow have a new place. They've finally shacked up officially. IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD. About seven blocks from my house. Practically in my backyard!
Another question. This doesn't concern me, but is it acceptable for OM to have his 3yo daughter sleep in bed with him and the sparrow?
Should all this be creeping me out?
'Cause it is!
I thought the one thing I could hope for was that these people would stay out of my life!
Another question. This doesn't concern me, but is it acceptable for OM to have his 3yo daughter sleep in bed with him and the sparrow? I'd be tempted to report them to CPS or have car4love do it. Sorry about the close proximity, ugh.
Have to sort of disagree with ff here. I wouldn't "necessarily" find it abnormal. Are there other indications that would make you question this, though? I think that's a question that should be answered.
About sparrow...bro, I've held my tongue for a while now, watching you writhe in pain from this dead soul of a person she's truned into...she really needs her wings clipped. The balls to do something like this! I know she's been spiteful to you in the past, but this is a steel tip in the groin. What the **** is this "in your face" attitude they have? Take the high road bro. (I know--easier said than done.) Try not to let it effect you in *ANY* visible way possible. This is *not* the woman you married; and certainly not the tpye of woman you want back. Her actions are appalling, dispicable, immature.
Well,this new development just goes to show how wacked out they are.I would be doing everything in my power to get the heck away from them.And how surreal is it that they just happen to set up camp 7 blocks away from you? gross.That really stinks or maybe there won't be much chance of running into them,that would be better.
Anyway,I don't think it's right at all what sparrow and the homewrecking OM are doing and I certainly do not think that having the 3 year old in bed with the two of them is appropriate either but many families have sleeping arrangements like this,you know "Family beds" where as kids they are allowed to sleep with parents for the first several years.I don't think that CPS would consider this something to act upon but that's JMO.
It is creepy but it's par for the course with the two adulterers.I am not shocked to hear about it though,we have had some sick behavior mentioned here before.
Why of all places to live, would they move to your neighborhood? What is wrong with these people. They don't even have the common decency to stay away. Do all the neighbors know that two adulterers have moved in? I think they might be interested in knowing that! I am shocked that they would be that close to you, seeing the effect on Sparrow it has when she sees you and speaks to you. Deep down they know what they did is wrong, they can stuff it, but that's not so easy if they run into you all the time.
I think it's kind of instructive, Kloe. This is how little I'm thought of.
My friend said they're a pair of "screwballs".
Car4love and the baby are doing fine, but she hates it when OM comes to the house. Everybody is getting a psych eval, including the sparrow. I feel so left out!
Great! They're finally shacking up fully out in the open! Can anyone else hear the death rattles of a doomed relationship in the future?? Well, ok, who really knows - but if it's going to happen it will get a big kick in the butt by the reality of losing the 'thrill' of sneaking around - or at the very least the "agony" of "why oh why can't we just be together". Now they will be - day in, day out, paying bills, smelling each others....well, anyway. It's a nice dose of reality.
As far as being just down from you - I hope it doesn't cramp your style at all - it certainly might add one more dose of uncomfortableness to their situation knowing you're just down the way. Let's hope.
Gray, you don't have kids - I wouldn't put too much thought in to what it is they do or don't do with OM's kid. If it were me and I were head over heals in love with someone - it would seem natural I would want them to love my kid and be one big happy family. Now - obviously there are other things to consider than that - but not to the foggy. I don't think they're being 'strange', just immoral. People do really dumb things....
The sparrow's BF, Andrea, cuts my friend Crow's hair. Saturday Crow got a haircut, and Andrea told him that my MIL gave her a little guilt trip about letting her friendship with the sparrow go sour. Basically, MIL said, "This is the way it's going to be, and none of us like it, but there's nothing we can do about it, so we may as well get used to it."
Andrea basically said that after many years of turmoil and trouble, her life is good and happy. She has a baby girl, and she and her H are doing well. She doesn't want to invite this chaos into her life. She's just not interested.
If my information is right, sparrow lives in my neighborhood with OM. My in-laws have given up the fight. My divorce will likely be done in just a few weeks.
Guess I'm starting to feel a little of what they call "acceptance". It's a funny feeling. Seems like I should resist it. To imagine no longer feeling upset about something so unacceptable to me... strange.
As you know, your sparrow and my wolf are very much alike, and I want to share with you a view from about 2 years down the road.
Yep. The divorce was finalized. Something I thought would NEVER happen to me, happened--the unthinkable, really. In my head, I knew I had gone above and beyond, and done the right thing...but it was still stunning. Well, more like numbing. Everyone kept telling me that "eventually he'll crash and burn" and literally everything I saw and heard seemed the exact opposite. He had a new apartment, took all the "good" furniture, spent money like it was water, and came home to someone who loved him every night (or so I thought). Meanwhile, I was stuck with the mortgage, taking care of two kids by myself, and an empty home.
As time went by, I decided to just keep being an honorable person and just keep doing what I thought was right, even if it seemed like doing the right thing was ridiculed. I got a new place I could afford...found a job I enjoyed...got my finances back in control...got the kids settled and comfortable and secure. Yep, time went by and I was feeling like it was coming together a bit. And on the occasion I would hear about the wolf and his "escapades"--and sometimes it hurt that he would do it right under my nose or tell the kids about it--but for the most part I just kept my focus on my own self and life.
This year, 2005, I figured it had been about 1 1/2 years and my life was pretty much "in order", and I thought I'd start looking around and making an effort to find someone--ya know? Not in that desperate sense, but more in that "Hey, I'm going to open my eyes and look" sense. I don't mean this like a put down, but I sure wasn't expecting anything at 42yo, but hey...can't find anyone if you don't try! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Meanwhile, wolf's soulmate left him--or he left her--or who knows what happened, but now he says he never loved her (sound familiar?). He is being sued by everyone who's money he spent like water. He works 80hour weeks and gets hardly no money for all his efforts. He's broke, alone, and poor frankly; and I have found what I think is the love of my life, I'm rich with love and a job I love and a man I love and kids I love and a home I love.
It's not as if your sparrow will just admit it one day...as if a lightbulb will go off in her head and she will "get it." It will be like a pile of things that gradually add up, and then one day you'll look at her life with OM (if they're even together) and your life, and you'll realize it even if she doesn't. And chances are good that she WILL realize it--years after it's too late. And that is very sad!
Keep the faith, graycloud, and keep warm in the Great White North.
Aw, J, I'm not finding peace and acceptance. I'm just starting to get a vague idea of what they might feel like.
CJ, I didn't know you had a man in your life. That's good!
Even when I believe all the positives, that I'll be happy, that I can find something like what I thought I had with the sparrow, that life will be great again... even then, I'm sad that I can't be happy with her, that she is not going to be a part of it. That's not because she's so wonderful and irresistible, it's just because I don't want her to carry this regret and sadness that she's likely to be in for, if all this is true.
Yet at the same time, I don't want her to be happy with OM. I can't wish them well, because I don't want it to be a world where people can do this kind of thing and wind up glad for having done it.
Does your garden variety WS ever come to understand how much she has hurt the BS?
What C.J. said really gets to me:
Everyone kept telling me that "eventually he'll crash and burn" and literally everything I saw and heard seemed the exact opposite. He had a new apartment, took all the "good" furniture, spent money like it was water, and came home to someone who loved him every night (or so I thought).
Everything I hear about the sparrow tells me she and OM are going about this business just as happy as can be, as if there is nothing at all wrong or unsavory about it. That impression I have of things keeps me up at night, because the people who have caused my pain are ignoring and discounting it. It either doesn't matter to them, or they deny that it even exists.
To have the sparrow ignore how she's hurt me ... it's almost like she's denying my very existence.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud: <strong> To have the sparrow ignore how she's hurt me ... it's almost like she's denying my very existence. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, Gray.
She IS denying your existence. That is how she is dealing with the guilt.
It WILL come home to haunt her. I can't tell you when, but it will happen.
Does your garden variety WS ever come to understand how much she has hurt the BS?
My own personal experience with this and with the WSs that I've talked to is that even if they understand how much they've hurt you on some deep level, many of them NEVER take the action necessary to make amends and heal that hurt.
Many of them do. They're usually known as FWSs.
When you're faced with someone who refuses to acknowledge the harm they've done, and who refuses to clean up the mess they've made, then you have learned something. You've learned a great deal about one particular person -- you've learned that that person, in that situation, is unable to be compassionate.
Sounds fairly minor when you put it in that terms, I know. And in fact, I think we all have times when we are unable to feel compassion. It took me a full year to feel any compassion for my ex at all. For that year, I really didn't even consider her human.
On the other end of the spectrum, though, are sociopaths -- those who never have any compassion for anyone, in any situation, at any time.
It's not a good tendency to foster, I would say. And it's something that I've learned to step away from. If someone is unable to act compassionately, I would rather not be around him or her. And if that person is the person who has sworn to put me ahead of all others? Well look at the reality of the situation. Do you -want- to be with someone who could treat you this way? At what point do you stop giving them the chance to hurt you further and take final steps to protect yourself (e.g., end your marriage)?
I don't know good answers to those questions. I do know that many of us here have had to face them, and that the answers have varied widely. For my own self, it was important that I know that I had done everything I could do to save my marriage and DD's family of origin. When I had done all of that, then even though the outcome was not what I had hoped, I had peace. And -- I -wanted- to go on without my ex.
There's no rush to get there. You'll know where you are in each day, and eventually life will turn in one direction or the other. It's just a matter of time.
Does your garden variety WS ever come to understand how much she has hurt the BS?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GC, as you know, I've been here FOR-E-VER, and I've known lots of WS's and lots of BS's. There ARE WS's that get it and have some some clue of how much they have hurt the BS. In some ways I am not sure if a WS ever fully comprehends the utter devastation and complete destruction that a BS feels, but I do think that a repentant WS knows that they have hurt someone they love very deeply. I think Finally Learning is this kine of WS--she understands as fully as a WS can without going through it themself. Does that make sense??
I think there are also WS's who don't get it for a while--who leave their homes and spouses and families "for the love of their life" and then something happens and they realize that it was all an illusion...a fantasy...and now they have lost EVERYTHING for a fake! Yes, it takes them a while to understand, but when they do, it hits like a horror. Do they understand how much they have hurt their BS?? Kinda. It gradually dawns on them as they come out of their fantasy...slowly over weeks and months. I think Bob Pure's Squiddy is a bit like this. It continuously dawns on them and hurts them a lot for a long time.
Then I think there are WS's like your sparrow and my wolf. In fact they don't get it and actually make efforts to NOT get it...to prevent themselves from understanding it. They don't WANT to know that they have destroyed lives and broken dreams. They avoid it with everything they have, and do everything they can to deny it and pretend "everything's okay" and justify. It's all about how it LOOKS--not about how it is. But the truth can not be avoided no matter how hard you try to bury it. With all their covering up and pretending, eventually--sometimes it can be YEARS later--eventually the truth does catch up with them, and then they do pay the price. Sadly, I think when a WS like this starts to pay the price, they do eventually get a clue as to how much they have hurt their BS, and by then, it is too late.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Everything I hear about the sparrow tells me she and OM are going about this business just as happy as can be, as if there is nothing at all wrong or unsavory about it. That impression I have of things keeps me up at night, because the people who have caused my pain are ignoring and discounting it. It either doesn't matter to them, or they deny that it even exists.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear GC! They are living in sewage pretending that it's pudding. And sadly in this world today, when they come up to people with sewage hanging off of them and smelling like waste, no one has the courage anymore to be a true friend and say, "You are covered in sewage! Let me help you clean up!" Instead, they say, "I would rather not be the one to tell them" or "It seems they're okay with it" or "Well maybe sewage isn't so bad"--or even worse: "She has the RIGHT to live in sewage if she wants to! I do!!" Sigh.
She has to work VERY hard to act as if her sewage is pudding, and you keep reminding her that it's horrible, gross, disgusting sewage! So it's not so much that she is ignoring your pain or it doesn't matter to her--it's just that she will do anything to make everyone believe that it's pudding, and if you keep bringing up that it's sewage, she's just going to avoid you. It's not about YOU, graycloud...it is about HER and her convincing everyone that sewage is pudding.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>To have the sparrow ignore how she's hurt me ... it's almost like she's denying my very existence. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Once again--it's not about YOU, it's about HER. It's sad that in our society, such as it is, no one will ever tell her that what she did was wrong...no one will ever say, "Sparrow! What you did was reprehensible. You broke your marriage vows and destroyed the dreams of your future. You are free to choose to do that, but if you do, there are going to be consequences. You will lose your home. You will lose your possessions. You will lose your children. Anything you built with your spouse...he gets it because YOU broke the contract, not him! It was just WRONG!!" It just is not going to happen, GC, because that's not the world we live in.
For now, sparrow is going to get away with it. That's the struggle--she's going to get away with it and NO ONE...not one person...is going to say "What you did was wrong--you can't get away with it". NO ONE is going to stand up and scream, "LOOK AT WHAT YOU DID TO HIM!!!! HOW COULD YOU DO THAT!!!!!" And NO ONE is going to be able to fix that part of you, gray. It's one of those awful things about divorce--it's not complete, and it's not morally just, and you don't get justice and satisfaction.
But when YOU as a man do what you know in your heart is right, and when YOU as a man do the just and honorable thing--that's something. You will know in your heart that you behaved honorably. Carry on with your life, and let your heart heal, and let your life proceed, even with the gaping wound. It seems so wrong and mixed up and backwards now, but the time does come when good does prevail--it just takes a while.
Gimble, J, and CJ... thank you! Yes, CJ, it is tough. This does seem a tricky sort of grief to go through. I hope I don't come across too whiny. I think I'm kind of an idealist, and when the world is slow and ambiguous in dealing out its justice, well, that's a bit of a disappointment.
And to think that my wife is still on balance a decent person, and that it's just this one instance where she's unable to have empathy for people she's hurt... that's also not easy to swallow. I'd feel better about it if she was a sociopath.
J, I think about what you wrote all the time... that somebody who is able to turn off their compassion when it becomes inconvenient is not a person I want in my life.
I don't want sparrow to be that kind of person, and it drives me crazy to have to accept that she is. Even now, with all that's happened, I want her redemption so badly, and I'm powerless to help her get it.
I'm in the middle of watching Before Sunset. So far, it's really something. I like Linklater's pictures an awful lot.
Had a long meeting w/my attorney today. We ironed out the details of the offer I want to give the sparrow. My lawyer said, based on her conversations with the sparrow's counsel, "My sense is that she's frustrated that it's taking this long, that she's anxious to get it done."
I had that funny feeling again, that hunch that my W really thinks this is all okay, that she thinks it's nobody's fault - an act of god.
I'm gonna try to stop caring about whether or not she'll ever be sorry, but I'm still going to write her that letter when it's done.
I'm gonna try to stop caring about whether or not she'll ever be sorry, but I'm still going to write her that letter when it's done. GC, your outlook gets better all the time. Be proud of the man you are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Well obviously she doesn't know God, or she would know that this was most definately not an act of God.
Does she believe in karma Gray? If she might ought to be terrified of what the karmic balance will be when it comes due. Don't you think?
I will be so happy when you quit thinking about them at all. When they are no more than a speck of dust to you.
It's hard for all of us to witness this Gray. Even on a marriage friendly site like this, it's hard to be non-judgemental of her. You probably have more compassion for her than anyone, and she is divorcing you. Go figure.
... that somebody who is able to turn off their compassion when it becomes inconvenient is not a person I want in my life.
I don't want sparrow to be that kind of person, and it drives me [i]crazy to have to accept that she is.[/i]
I know. I've been there. Done it. Got the t-shirt.
And then finally took a good hard look at myself and asked myself why it was so important to me that she NOT be that person. It wasn't just because of the compassion I felt for her -- though that was there.
It was also because of what it meant about me. That although my marriage was very good for more than a decade, I had also married someone who was CAPABLE of turning her compassion off. And I had never seen that capacity in her, or in myself (because I do have it as well), and had refused to see it when others tried to point it out to me.
A very tough lesson to learn about humanity. Mine, hers, everyone's.
One that I'm not done learning and can't quite put into good words yet. It's about boundaries and refusing to be harmed and valuing myself and understanding that love is in the action, not in the promises, and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Gray, We can come and say that you are doing the right thing, and that you will be happy, and she will not, but it's kind of a holllow thing when you have to cope with the feelings that come often.
Logic often doesn't help ease pain, and that's what you have to deal with. I can imagine, but I am sure it doesn't come close. Many others KNOW EXACTLY how you feel.
I do know that bad can be turned to good in our lives if we don't give up. If we don't cave in.
You can see it in thousands of lives. From death camp survivors, to the MB forums. People can rise above the pain life inflicts, and be happy anyway.
I know you have good days, and bad days. I suspect sometimes you wonder if the man in the glass is a chump, not a hero.
I want to tell you again, you are not wasting your time. To me, in many ways, you are a hero. I can tell you from personal experiance that happiness comes from doing what is right, not from doing what feels best any time you want it.
Again, I know you understand already. Just wanted you to know that people realize the energy you are expending. We know it takes a lot, and that you are giving it.
Wanted you to know that people care about you. I care about you.
Joanna, you're right. I don't think my reasons for wanting the sparrow's redemption are pure. I think I want it partly because of the doubts I had about her over the years. And there are doubts about myself in there too. For instance, there were times when I thought to myself, am I only with this woman because I am attracted to her and because she adores me so much more than anybody else ever has? I saw her flaws. I saw fundamental differences between us. I often felt that she didn't care for me as deeply as I cared for her.
I think wanting her redemption is partly wrapped up in not wanting all my doubts about her character to be proven right, but deep down, I know my doubts were well placed.
SS, thank you for caring so much.
Don't give me too much credit. My relationship with the sparrow was my first serious one. Sometimes I think part of the reason it's so hard to let go is because I doubt the possibility that some other beautiful, interesting, good-hearted woman will want to be a part of my life. Honestly, it seems unlikely to me. My damaged self-esteem, maybe. Not sure... I usually think my doubts in that area are realistic.
I am "ol' GC" - the other day I got a haircut. My barber knows my recent history. I looked at all the gray hairs on the cape in front of me, and sort of whistled. My barber said what he probably always says when people marvel at their graying hair: "That's just your wisdom showing." That's what all the women will say, right? "Hey big fella, you sure look wise - wanna play checkers?"
Oh shoot, I have had it for so long, I about forgot mine used to be all brown. I tend to not worry about things I can't change.
Anyway, welcome to the club. I still think you won't have a problem when you are ready to date. I think there were enough girls that commented on your picture to confirm that too.
2long, I continue to have problems with this site. It looks like they are fixing things as fast as they can, but I suspect there will continue to be problems for a few weeks.
I have tried three different browsers, and none of them work right all the time. I can only post with one of them, the other two give me error messages. All of them log out about every 30 seconds.
Oh well, at least I my eyes can see the error messages.
Well, didn't mean to hop on here again so soon... but the sparrow has rejected my latest offer for the divorce agreement. After I gave ground on a couple of things, she has modified her offer to actually be further still from what I'm asking. I take two steps in her direction, she moves two steps farther away, then complains that I'm delaying the process.
It looks like the judge is going to have to get involved in this process. I hope she's sympathetic, but she really has no reason to be, here in wonderful no-fault land.
SS, it's probably time to make a more generous offer still, I'm afraid. I haven't talked to my lawyer yet - she just forwarded me the "rejection letter" from sparrow's lawyer. It was a good offer too, just not enough cash.
If I have to borrow to give the sparrow more cash, I'll try to look on the bright side. A large portion of the money will in all likelihood wind up in car4love's bank account.
She and the baby are doing fine, by the way. We had lunch and talked for a few hours last week. Isn't it funny, I've seen the baby, but the sparrow hasn't?
It was so hard for me to get logged in that I forgot what I was going to say.
Oh yes, the gray hair -
Real women couldn't care less about a man's hair (or lack of it). Besides you are a blond. What's the big difference between blond and gray anyway. Now for me, a brunette, gray hair would be a travesty. Thank gawd for hair coloring!
Glad you and car4love are friends Gray. I'ld give ya a little smiley face right now, if I could find one to click.
Oh, no, 2long, I don't expect OM to "get it". He seems to think MB is a subversive organization.
In other news, I got home, and taking weaver's advice, headed for the Y. On the way, I passed the sparrow - she was probably on her way home from her Wednesday yoga class.
Seeing the sparrow's car took me down a peg or two, then I arrived at the Y. My card didn't work. Long story short, last summer I started an individual membership, but they goofed and maintained the dual membership with me and sparrow as well.
The woman at the Y said to me, "You had a dual membership. Was it with your wife?" I said, "Yes." She said, "What's her name?" I told her. She stared at the screen for a few seconds, looked at me, looked back at the screen, then said, "Who's [OM]?" I said, "That's my wife's BF." She didn't know what to say. I said, "Aren't you glad you asked? Let's just get this new membership set up."
I imagined the sparrow taking my name off the dual membership and having OM's name placed on it. Top notch. Hope that made her feel like a champ.
After a swim, I got home and talked to car4love and found out about OM's knowing about MB, which means he's either read her emails, read my emails (most likely), or snooped on her phone conversations. She has only discussed MB with a small group of people, all in confidence, and since she's never even posted here, and has kind of kept the whole thing at arm's length, she can hardly be accused of being "involved" with this organization.
OM claims in a court document that car4love, through her non-existent "involvement" with MB, is trying to manipulate him into coming back to the marriage, and is willing to do anything to control him and trick him and make him remain her husband.
Yes, OM, you're so wonderful and irresistible that car4love would love nothing more than to have your dumb a$$ around all the time.
In fact, car4love can think of few things more annoying than the idea of having OM back in her life.
In this document filed with the court, OM "accuses" car4love of doing plan B, then gives a (poor) explanation of it, and he includes several pages printed out from the MB website.
He also states that his relationship with the sparrow, who he calls his "significant other", has nothing to do with the fact that the marriage is ending.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
He brought up his affair in a court document. Big dope! Yes, let's talk about your affair.
I do hate that this little [censored] has read my emails. Five months' worth. We're talking all my correspondence with my friends and family. Hundreds of messages, many of them very private and personal.
I don't really care if the sparrow thinks I'm trying to be manipulative or controlling or any of that. She can think whatever she wants. It makes no difference to me. I know I can't control her. I know she's going to do what she wants. So what if she has a half-baked idea of what "plan B" is? It keeps me safe from the chaos. It keeps me from hating her. Big secret!
Sorry if I'm a little hostile. I love my wife. I sought out help when I discovered something was wrong in my M. MB made sense, and the people on these forums have been wonderful to me during an incredibly difficult time.
On the night the sparrow said she wanted a divorce, I sat up chain smoking and posting here, and people like weaver, SHMI, BV, turtlehead, 10girl, believer, and WAT sat up and responded to my posts.
Meanwhile, the APs cheat and make demands and hurt us every chance they get. They send us to lawyers and make our lives miserable. They think we tried to save our marriages because of them.
Okay, I've gone on enough. I am so angry at the APs tonight. They're lucky I'm a peaceful fella.
You know? I've come just shy of putting all my multithousand posts in a file and emailing it 2 my W and RM on a few occasions. I *could* do that and it wouldn't bother me a bit. But there really is no use. Personal growth in someone else can't be forced, only hoped for. And at some point even the hope that they'll pull their heads out of their nether regions fades.
After 38.5 months since d-day, I still do hope my W will "get it" at some point, but I'm losing less sleep about it with time.
Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. I honestly wonder what APs do when they run out of little corners their BPs used 2 occupy 2 replace with their ill-fitting OP? When all the blame has been shifted 2 the BPs shoulders in effigy, what's left 2 do? Love?
Like I said on someone else's thread a while ago, about the infamous "I love you but I'm not in love with you" mantra 2 the BP, what they should simultaneously be saying 2 the AP is "I'm in love with you but I don't love you", because that's the honest truth. And when the infa2ation - what they thought was love - wears off, and there's no-one 2 wake up in the morning 2 but a scheming, shallow, insincere OP - a reflection of the WP themselves, in fact... ...Oh, 2 be a fly on the wall that day!
Still, there are probably APs all over that never have such an awakening. But they're not someone a BP would ever want back anyway.
(just heard that Terry Shiavo passed away. I'm happy she's free)
Okay, GC, now that you're done ranting about OM and his court documents, STOP TALKING ABOUT IT IN PUBLIC.
I have a whole lot of thoughts about this situation and how it could be handled well. If you'd like to hear 'em, shoot me an e-mail. And give car4love a hug from me next time you see her. She's a mighty fine woman and she has done an amazing job of being a wife and mom in the last year. I wanna nominate her for wife and mom of the year, in fact.
I won't talk about OM and his wacky court documents any more... but get this.
Car4love called me tonight. She and OM came to some agreement or other about how to handle their taxes. I may have some of the details not quite right... doesn't matter. OM emailed car4love to tell her his username with some tax prep company, I forget which.
The paranoid person in me things that he's trying to smoke you out and figures the easiest way to do it is to get you to say something like that -- easily traceable and definitive. Then again, I guess you've probably put enough information here that they can figure out who you are with or without that bit.
So I'm just going to say that that's one of the funniest things I've heard in a long time. Just like you -- but further down the alphabet in one place, and with a slight British accent.
I think the little tin god is feeling a tad bit inferior. After all, he won the woman - why make this "personal" about you? This is an extraordinary effort to "get to you".
My guess is he is a prideful man who knows he's a lessor man, and is obsessed with making you feel like rubble, so that he can somehow feel better about his destructive behavior.
thats just PATHETIC !!! What a sad example of humanity he must be. I wondered if he was trying to make things difficult for you with the good ol tax office but cant see how
OM isn't trying to smoke me out. I'm sure they have no doubt I am who I am. I don't work that hard to conceal my identity here. Nothing to hide.
I don't think the "greycloud" thing actually has much to do with me. Trix, I wouldn't be surprised if sparrow didn't even know about it. Seems to me OM is just trying to tell car4love, "I know what you did last summer." He probably thinks it's clever.
Met two women last night. A friend introduced me to one of them - a fix-up attempt. My friend said, "Isn't she cute?" I said to the girl, "You're beautiful, but I'm not available yet." The friend said, "Oh come ON GC!" I stammered a little and got out of there... but I still enjoyed it.
KA, I love that name for him, "the little tin god".
I do have to say that it's always interesting when you know what you're writing is being read by the people involved in your story. I've been tempted by it -- my ex found my bio over at SYMC and ranted about it for months. I eventually updated it to reflect changing circumstances, but boy it made her mad for a while. What's sad about it is that it was completely factual -- it made me realize just how frightening the facts of her own actions were to her.
And it made me realize the things she's doing to run away from those facts -- marrying OM (two weeks from tomorrow) and refusing to get the adoption done being the biggies. Poor thing. I occasionally wonder if she'll manage to run from the consequences of her actions for the rest of her life. Then I realize. No. She won't be able to. And I just smile sadly. The poor, poor thing.
I would not CARE if my W, and EVEN RM (yes, I'm calling him Rat Meat again - I can respect his humanity, but that's pretty much it) were 2 read each and every one of my posts from February 2002 (when I came here in the most extreme pain I could ever imagine) 2 now.
Let them see what kind of man I am. I WANT them 2 know. I WANT my W 2 know "who" I am, more than anything. I don't CARE what RM thinks of me (I'd be glad 2 tell him or my W what *I* think of HIM - objective stuff, but harsh nonetheless).
But I don't believe he'll ever come here. I think my W might ask, and if she does, I'll tell. I'll point her here and let her read all she wants.
Because, we're "surviving" right now. And I know we can do better. I'm just waiting for her 2 want that.
Like many have commented here before: I don't just need her2 not want a "friendship" with RM, I need her 2 not cherish the memory of RM. If she can get there, I believe we can recover our M. If she can't, I don't need 2 recover our M.
I'm sorry I haven't been posting on here much. I am very disappointed with the sparrow. From your description, she has been the most deluded WW/OW I've read about. She is so heavy into her "new" life and left you behind with no remorse.
I wonder, which will be worse for her, feeling remorse some time in the future, or never feeling remorse?
And including MB in the court documents? That is Soooo funny. I can see the judge looking up this *subversive* and manipulative website and finding out what it's REALLY about. Yeah...that will really hurt you (heavy, HEAVY, sarcasm). I can see the judge recommending this site for future cases he/she oversees ("I'm ordering counseling and reading this website...") Last laugh?
Thanks for the shout out.
You are an awesome guy, and I know you will be a great H, to someone who will allow you to. Sparrow is going to reap what she sows...if you know what I mean.
Maybe it was the death of John Paul II made me decide to watch Kundun today. If you can say the movie has a plot, then it's about the XIV Dalai Lama growing into adulthood during the 1950s while the Chinese conquer Tibet.
As the Chinese assert their authority and bring their armies to his defenseless country, the Dalai Lama comes to accept that Tibet will be taken over, and in order to remain true to his beliefs, he gently and peacefully endures the occupation as long as possible, but ultimately he must give up his country and go into exile.
He reaches out to the rest of the world, and nobody wants to get involved. China is too powerful.
He meets with Chairman Mao and tries to be positive and generous, but finally realizes that Mao's friendliness and politeness is a mask. In the end, he sees Mao as the enemy he truly is.
I can't help but see the parallels. What's happened to the relationship that meant everything to me is wrong. The people currently dictating the direction of my life don't care about me at all. To help themselves sleep at night, and to convince others that their actions are just, they say that I'm a tyrant.
In the present, and the short term, the bad guys win. The thing I would give anything to protect and defend is being destroyed.
I'm in exile, and I have to make a life in the new country I live in now.
I like it! You are starting to show the type of imagination I can relate to Gray.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama, is the person I rank highest in the world today. In my book he is right there next to Jesus Christ. In fact the book "The Art of Happiness" changed my life, and got me through the worst years of my life after my parents died. Especially during the times when my so called aunts & uncles showed their true greedy colors.
I need to re-read it I think. Living up here in alcoholic paradise capital of the USA keeps me in an ugly reality (or non-reality depending on your beliefs).
I say cheese away Gray, you're good at it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, have you read How to Practice? It's been a while since I read The Art of Happiness, but I think HTP is more fundamental.
I agree with you about HH. In the coming days, as we think about John Paul II and his victorious struggles against the Nazis and the Communists, and the risks he took to practice and teach his faith under oppression, I'll remember that the struggle of another religious leader continues, as it has for almost all his life.
SHMI - I hope I gave proper credit to everybody from that night last June. My memory of it is a tattoo, so I doubt I forgot anybody in that holla-holla list.
I think I will check the library for the book you suggest Gray. I can't stomach any more relationship books. I have also been reading different books on paganism and wicca because one of my sisters and her daughter follows wicca. I love the nature part of it and respect the faith but it is not for me.
SS - on JJ's thread you said your tomato's are done late June, up here they won't be done until late August/Sept and then it is a problem with getting them in before the first frost. It's hard to do any vegetable growing around here.
Hot peppers grow really well all summer though. One year I picked a bunch of them without gloves and then cut them up for salsa my mom and I was making and spent the next two days in utter agony, I had burned my fingers and eyes so bad. LOL, can you believe it? Think I'm just going to get one of those hanging tomato baskets this year and concentrate on putting in some perenial beds.
I took out an equity line of credit and I am going to have my whole backyard turned into a patio. I have a bungalow behind my house I rent out and the space between the two houses is just perfect for a secluded patio. Going to get one of those outside fireplaces too.
And I booked a weeks vacation in Cancun for my daughter and me the first part of June.
You're lucky to have two 11 yo's. One little girl is kind of lonely for a kid. I love this age, don't you? Every year I think it is the best age, but right now she is still so dang sweet and she just loves everything. Hope HS is kind to her.
I'm taking her to Cancun now because we still get along so good and she still thinks I am pretty cool. I decided it's worth going into debt for a vacation this year because we will always have it to remember.
Weaver, I have How to Practice on CD. For me it's worth owning.
I'm taking out a HELOC too - so I can pay off the turkey I married. Maybe I'll have enough left to do something crazy, like get myself one of these.
I'd love to do a garden this year, but it ain't happening. I'll just have to visit the farmers' market often.
Your vacation plans with DD sound great. With adolescence right around the corner, it's a good time to do it I reckon.
SS - I have terrible sleeping habits. It was one of the sparrow's gripes... I love being up at night. I hate the thought of all that time going by and not being awake to do something good with it. Stupid, I know.
There was a story in Issac Asimov's short story mag one month about genetically altering humans so they didn't need to sleep. It was such a good story!
I love to sleep. I am such a morning person, sometimes I take a nap just so I can have that fresh morning feeling twice in one day. LOL
Kimmy, you read the oddest mags, I must say.
Gray, you are such a musician! I thought when I opened that link that I would fine a big boat or something like that. Should have known it would be a Gibson Jumbo or whatever it was called. Ya goof!
Graycloud said: SS - I have terrible sleeping habits. It was one of the sparrow's gripes... I love being up at night. I hate the thought of all that time going by and not being awake to do something good with it. Stupid, I know.
Not only that - but tomorrow you have to go to work, but as long as you are awake TONIGHT, you control the time, you can do what you want, you can think what you want, and be what you want. When you wake up tomorrow, it's off to the salt mines.
Yeah, I know.
I'm not your mother either, sorry. It's just that I kind of care about your health, and sleep is part of that. You are important, even if you don't feel like it very often. I don't lie about things like this.
SS - on JJ's thread you said your tomato's are done late June, up here they won't be done until late August/Sept and then it is a problem with getting them in before the first frost. It's hard to do any vegetable growing around here.
I grow a winter garden, with turnips, spinich, carrots, and onions. Then the summer one is squash, tomatoes, and like that. It's too hot here for much in the summer. Come by after work in July, and you can pick some tomatoes too.
Hot peppers grow really well all summer though.
Oh, yes, and hot peppers, and bell peppers, and yellow banana peppers. They do really well here.
I have done the same with the hot ones as you. It doesn't seem to hurt my hands, but anywhere else I touch burns. Once I rubbed my eye...............BIG MISTAKE.
Think I'm just going to get one of those hanging tomato baskets this year and concentrate on putting in some perenial beds.
Send pictures.
I suppose we have a few more things in the garden. Asparagus, a dwarf peach tree, and a pomegranate bush. Raspberries, and boysenberries - and grape vines. It's fun, and it gives me a release for my anger, but I have only broken one hoe handle. Is it bad to chop the weeds like a madman?
I took out an equity line of credit and I am going to have my whole backyard turned into a patio. I have a bungalow behind my house I rent out and the space between the two houses is just perfect for a secluded patio. Going to get one of those outside fireplaces too.
We have a fire pit on the back patio, and the girls have friends over spring and fall. Summer is too hot. Your daughter will love it. Just don't go broke.
And I booked a weeks vacation in Cancun for my daughter and me the first part of June.
Have fun, and if you ever get out west, I'll tell you the secret places to go. I live close to Zion national park.
You're lucky to have two 11 yo's. One little girl is kind of lonely for a kid. I love this age, don't you? Every year I think it is the best age, but right now she is still so dang sweet and she just loves everything. Hope HS is kind to her.
HS will be both fun, and torture. You know it will. She will have wonderful experiances, and she will have times when she cries. It is nice to have two, they fight with each other, instead of with us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm taking her to Cancun now because we still get along so good and she still thinks I am pretty cool. I decided it's worth going into debt for a vacation this year because we will always have it to remember.
I hope you have a ball, but remember, it's not the place, but the time she spends with you. It's you being with her full time, laughing and talking with her. It's the love in your voice, the attention you give, the things you teach.
She is lucky to have you for a mom.
You were kind to invite all of us to the island. We probably won't get there this summer. If you ever get out this way, you can come by and our daughters can show yours around this end of the country.
Keep up the good work. I see a much happier person now days.
I've got a song for you about guitars and performing and... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
"Lament" - King Crimson (Fripp, Wetton, Palmer-James)
"I guess I tried to show you how I'd take the crowd with my guitar And business men would clap their hands And clip another fat cigar And publishers would spread the news And print my music far and wide And all the kids who played the blues Would learn my licks with a bottle neck slide
But now it seems the bubble's burst Although you know there was a time When love songs gathered in my head With poetry in every line And strong men strove to hold the doors While with my friends I passed that age When people stomped on dirty floors Before I trod the rock'n'roll stage
I'll thank the man who's on the 'phone And if he has the time to spend The problem I'll explain once more And indicate a sum to lend That ten percent is now a joke Maybe thirty, even thirty-five! I'll say my daddy's had a stroke He'd have one now, if he only was alive!
I like the way you look at me You're laughing too down there inside I took my chance and you took yours You crewed my ship, we missed the tide I like the way the music goes There's a few good guys who can play it right I like the way it moves my toes Just say it when you want to go and dance all night..."
Thanks SS. My dad took us to Zion as kids. We lived in Utah and also San Bernadino when he was stationed out west. He took us all over camping in this old motorhome we had. Someday when Paige is in college I might head out west again. You are lucky to live in a place where there is more than just pines and water and snow. Although it does have a certain majesty about it too, I suppose. I was reading about this womens retreat in the mountains, dang now I can't remember if was AZ or NM. Shoot, when I think of the name of the place I'll ask you about it because in the brochure it was just breathtakingly beautiful.
I meant that invite too, to any MB'rs that would like a neat place to put their camper and canoe/boat and rough it on Lake Superior for awhile.
I don't know anyone close enough to take me up on it though, except maybe KY and ST. Melody comes close to where I live to visit relatives, but I know she wouldn't like it, it is so rustic. Who knows though I might try to get her up here.
Gray is more than welcome too. You could bring some buddies and camp for awhile. I'll take you over to the island and then come back home though probably. My little girl doesn't like to stay over there anymore unless I bring some of her friends but then it's stressful with all the water and all for me.
I suggest a camper though because it is mostly rock and I don't think the ground would be too comfy.
I had someone out to see about getting a well and was told that because of the veins on that island I might very well run into salt water, so they suggested running water in from the great lake instead. It is still legal to do that.
Well enough babbling on Gray's thread.
Uncle Cracker (sp) is in town tonight Gray. Thought about taking Paige to see the show but then decided $70 bucks was a little extravagant.
A thread that's steering towards camping!!!!!! Could my day get much better!!!
Gray.....or as us Canucks would say....Grey....get yer butt out west with somathat watery American beer, bring that thar gee-tar too. We'll cry into our beer all night so it'll be watery and salty. WAT's invited too and whoever else can make it to the cabin.
We might even entice one of them cutthroat trout out of one of the local streams. This pic was taken just down the road from my cabin. It'd be good for your soul.
Bless my soul, Binder. I'm impressed. I'm there. Watch that Nuck spelling of the first half of my name though, my man. Read back a page or two and you'll know why.
Okay, now that OM is possibly reading my posts, I should be careful what I write, but eff that - except where car4love is concerned. She deserves to be protected, what with wolves at her door and all.
Let me tell you, some of the things car4love has coming her way thanks to no-fault divorce and the family court system here are absolutely a crime. For instance, she is being required to go to the love shack, walk up the walk, ring the bell, and hand over her child while the sparrow squats in the background like a nasty old turkey vulture. Poor car4love (and she would hate me calling her that). I can think of nothing more cruel or humiliating for her than being dragged to OM and the sparrow's domicile to hand over her child to the cuckoo.
And from my P.O.V. Just to cite an example... I've written here about things I'd like to tell the sparrow in my farewell to her. Some of the time, while I was typing, I was crying so hard I could hardly breathe. People responded to those things. They said, "GC, you should tell her this. It's powerful, it's important," &c &c.
Now, I feel that I can't tell her anything that comes from the stuff I've written here. If she and OM have been over my posts, they would just read it together and say "Haw haw, this is exactly what that fool said he was going to write, except he changed 'pain' to 'anguish'."
By invading my privacy and violating my own personal correspondence, they've taken so much from me, and there's nothing I can do about it. It's a private, personal violation.
Oh boy, I've got more to write.
Since getting up this morning, I knew I was going to have a swim after work today, even though sparrow replaced me with OM in the family Y membership, even though I met her car a week ago, possibly coming back from the Y.
As I drove from work, I sweated it. I imagined meeting one or both of them there. I wondered what I would do. I'm not going to lie because the tin god may be reading. I went over a hundred scenarios as I drove, imagining brilliant things I could say. But the truth is, I have no idea what I'd do. I don't have anything in the can that I would say. It's a mystery to me.
I went to the Y, and mercifully, did not run into any of the boogeymen.
I still can't figure out why they would live here. Is it because they weren't thinking about me at all, or is it because they're so preoccupied with making their affair legit that they're taking extra trouble to do it right under my nose? I really don't know. Sparrow was very resentful about moving to this neighborhood with me. It doesn't make sense.
Finally... I've written about this before, because I knew it had to be true, but I never really felt it before. It's really true - my attachment to my W, car4love's attachment to her H... they were really about us all the while. For better or worse.
I was attached because I was willing to surrender myself to the sparrow - obviously a mistake. I should have heeded my doubts.
I was attached because I don't think I'm all that irresistible. That's old, old stuff. That's the awkward little 12-year-old who still lives in here.
I was also attached because I decided she would be the person I love. Because I threw away the idea of having intimacy and sex and anything else with any other woman, ever, for her. I meant it. I thought about it a lot, and I decided that was what I wanted to do, back when I was 23. I remember driving home on my way to get married. In the middle of Wisconsin, I stopped, late at night. I walked up to the top of a hill. I sat up there and tried as hard as I could to come up with a reason to back out. I couldn't do it. I adored this girl. I believed in her. I thought she respected me, and I thought she was good. All past tense.
So it's like I said, the strength of my attachment, the stubbornness of my desire to protect my marriage and to forgive the sparrow... it's all about me. It has nothing to do with her, really. She was on the receiving end, not because she's so wonderful, but because I picked her.
I hope I do a better job if I have to make that kind of choice again. I was the best man for her, but clearly, she is not good. She's cold, cruel, selfish, and faithless. She does not know empathy or compassion. They're foreign to her.
So it's like I said, the strength of my attachment, the stubbornness of my desire to protect my marriage and to forgive the sparrow... it's all about me. It has nothing to do with her, really. She was on the receiving end, not because she's so wonderful, but because I picked her.
I hope I do a better job if I have to make that kind of choice again. I was the best man for her, but clearly, she is not good. She's cold, cruel, selfish, and faithless. She does not know empathy or compassion. They're foreign to her.
You have learned so much my friend. You will do better in future relationships, but don't be so hard on your judgement either. Sparrow may have been who you thought she was back then. People change, character flaws surface, pride gets in the way...
Gray, you are good, loving, loyal man and I am confidant you have many happy years ahead of you.
What FF quoted, I think that is absolutely right on the mark.
Do you really think they would read your stuff here Gray? I mean how could they stand it.
Why he would call him greycloud still baffles me.
I will be so glad when this no longer haunts you. Someday soon the awful stain will be gone, and your thoughts will no longer be plagued by what was never in your control.
For those on here whose spouse left seemingly to never look back, and so suddenly. Never really having a chance to reconcile in their own minds, to get any real answers, to be left with only self-doubt and a horrible kind of paranoia. The kind that makes you question yourself and every thought you have ever had, to question everybody really. That just seems so cruel.
Like the high school dreams where you are sitting in the auditorium and the one person you thought was your best friend is sitting with someone else laughing at you, everyone is laughing at you.
I remember dreams like that which came back to me when I found out about my ex.
If they are reading your stuff here than they are even more effed up than I thought. Yuck!
Binder - that was really beautiful. You got that out of a magazine didn't you?
I see why the aversion to the "e" on the spelling....eeeeewwwwwwwwwwww (Can a man say that) I in no way shape or form want to resemble the l.t.g. Sorry bout that.
He will have his turn though. I look at my WW's father who abandoned her family to run off with OW. She subsequently dumped him to run off with another OM. He is now a senior citizen, broke, lives in my WW's basement and spends his free time wandering around a mall. Of course that will never happen to the l.t.g. because his affair with the sparrow is sooooooo different.
Faithful....I'm in Alberta. We have a good variety here with prairies, forests and mountains. We do lack a coastline however, but BC is but a province over.
Weaver, I did not steal that photo from a magazine. I wouldn't have a clue how to publicly post a magazine pic anyway.........I stole it from a website promoting the area. Be that as it may, it is a photo of the area; my cabin is on the other side of the range in the background of the photo.
GC, in rereading some of your posts I sense some insecurity regarding meeting/dating other women once your divorce is complete. I hope this is a mere insecurity rather than a conscious worry. You do not have an extra appendage growing out of your face, your a musician, well educated, well read, articulate and stably employed. You my friend are a “catch". Plus......you can be very forward and vulgar to potential dates in a bar and if called on it you can say: "No no no.......I asked if you wanted to come to my house to see my thesis! "
Weaver, I did not steal that photo from a magazine. I wouldn't have a clue how to publicly post a magazine pic anyway.........I stole it from a website promoting the area. Be that as it may, it is a photo of the area; my cabin is on the other side of the range in the background of the photo.
I love Alberta. Truly do. I've spent some absolutely amazing and always-treasured time in Calgary. Don't think I'll be going there again anytime soon, but I'm very fond of that park that runs through the middle of the city.
Sorry to hear about car4love having to do transitions at the OM and sparrow's, err, domicile. If that's the worst she got, though, it's not so bad.
Weaver, there are a few people who live in WI. Cerri (Penny) lives over near the Cities, but on the WI side of the border. I grew up on Lake Michigan (Manitowoc) and my parents still live there. Unfortunately, my trips are pretty dang quick these days, and 3 days isn't enough time to visit your island AND see the fireworks with my parents.
SS, I'd love to come and pick tomatoes, too. Dang, that would be fabulous. Oh, well, another couple of years and the vacations will get longer.
Binder, I do have insecurity about meeting women. I know I'm good on paper. We'll see. It's just a little insecurity. This might sound stupid, but I don't know how to be single. I was in college last time I was on my own.
Weaver, I thought they wouldn't want to read my email either, for the same reason (why would they want to read about how much pain I'm in?), but they did. I don't know if they're reading here, but I have to assume they are.
I wonder if TG does his shenanigans on the sly, and sparrow doesn't even know. Not to give her any special credit. It's just all so malicious.
Had a pretty fun weekend, but I'm wiped out. Worked hard and socialized.
More trouble every day for car4love. Something came up yesterday, and she called me crying - first time in a pretty long while. We always wind up joking about how she's sparrow and TG's villain, and I'm like a silent, passive monk in a tower. She said it does feel empowering sometimes, being so involved with everything. I, on the other hand, feel weak and passive. I say nothing, I do nothing, no matter what happens.
I wonder if my silence and detachment is really the right way to go about this. Maybe it isn't the high road. Maybe it's just me copping out.
Or maybe I'm just tired.
And I hit my thumb with a hammer today, hard. It's trashed.
I do have insecurity about meeting women. I know I'm good on paper. We'll see. It's just a little insecurity. This might sound stupid, but I don't know how to be single. I was in college last time I was on my own.
Gray, I've read your last couple of posts and my heart really goes out to you. I don't know you that well, other than what I "hear" from you through these lists, and the brief time I met you at Cerri's. But, it is my strong impression that you have nothing to worry about. You're good in person too. The right people will make you feel comfortable and you can just go with the flow and not even think about it. When you don't have to think about being on a date, or feel you have to impress someone, you will have "arrived". I truly think it will happen for you when the time is right.
Finally found out what happened in the phone conference.
Opposing counsel does not believe I can't afford to give the sparrow all the cash she wants, and wants me to sell the house if I can't. It's a shakedown. Sparrow gets less if I sell. No question about it.
We're being sent to a settlement conference, where some sort of mediator manages a conversation between us and our attorneys.
GC, is the temptation to try to work this out between the two of you? To see where sparrow's head truly is? It sounds like this is her attorney talking not her. What do you think?
If I had to guess what sparrow thinks... she probably thinks that it isn't personal, it's just business, and it's between the lawyers. I want to tell her that it is personal and that it hurts me.
I wasn't thinking of trying to work it out between us without lawyers. I couldn't do that.
Sorry, GC. I didn't think you would trust her enough to do that but wanted to be sure what your motives are. I don't think sparrow will get it, I really don't. If she did she would have figured out by now how her actions have hurt you. I am glad you have this forum to vent. You are a very special man, GC and I just pray for the day that this is over for you. {{GC}}
I have told RAP a few times how personal all this is. Know what I got?
"I know. And I'm sorry."
Know what else? It doesn't help. She DOESN'T know. Because I would not ever put her through the pain I was put through. And her apologies are just words.
No remorse. No change of behavior. Nothing.
The expectation that sparrow will realize what she has done is not going to come from anything you say or do. It will only come when she realizes from experiencing it what she gave up (you).
And sadly, the "new love jitters" take a few years to get through.
Move on. There is a time to move on. It is now.
NCWalker
(PS - I've seen your picture. You'll do fine. Go find someone to love you.)
What have they done to you. WHAT. Read what you wrote?
Ya know, I keep a journal. And there are some private things in there. There is some pain. And if ANYONE found it and read it, I would probably be embarassed. But I would NOT be ashamed. Why?
I own my mistakes.
I try and be as honest as I can.
And I am not ashamed of who I am. ======
Gray, I would say the SAME about you.
So they saw some of your pain. At least you have feelings.
So they saw you being weak. It takes a strong man to know where his weaknesses are.
So they saw your hurt. They will also see you recover and be stronger for it.
At first glance, it may feel invasive. But WHAT DID THEY REALLY GAIN? What harm did it really do you?
Maybe they are lying together snickering like little children about you. A hurtful image, but an image only. In no way does it detract from who you are. Fact is, only they look foolish.
Gray, she/they saw YOU. And in the end, what else would you have the sparrow see?
NOT you, but choose to be with you? No. Better she really see you and you get an HONEST response. Who would want to lie to their spouse and make them happy by not being true to oneself?
Not me. Been there, done that, didn't like myself.
My issue with RAP is that I won't stay married when she cheats on me. Your issue with the sparrow is the same.
And what is their issue with us? They don't like who we are? Sure, it is couched in phrases and complaints. But we were good to them.
No. I think it is that they don't like what they see in themselves next to us.
We have talked and I know what your relationship with the Sparrow was like. I had the SAME with RAP. THE SAME. But brother, you have to live with YOU.
There is NO SHAME in who you are. In your good moments AND bad.
So they saw it. And they saw honesty. Even when we rant on here, it is an honest picture of how we feel.
If she doesn't love a Graycloud who isn't afraid to be HONEST, do you really WANT her?
Ask the WS's on here who come to their senses. They have a vast appreciation for the stoicism of their FS's who remained true. Yours and mine have chosen a different path.
But it is the path WE choose that defines us, not theirs.
I'm not ashamed of anything in my emails or in this thread. Many times I wondered whether the APs would, given the chance, invade my privacy in this way. I knew the possibility was there, and I put things here anyway.
They've proven my mistrust of them to be sensible. I just wasn't paranoid enough to protect myself from them.
There are things I wrote in both places that I know I'll be judged unfairly for, and conversations about things I wouldn't do again, given the chance. My life was in a crisis. My whole world was getting ripped apart, and I wanted to try to save it.
It's incredible. These people can cheat and betray us and plot against us and do everything in their power to injure us, and we're villains for discussing ways to convince them to stop.
NCW, thanks for your kind words. I'm not ashamed of who I am, and I'm not afraid of the truth. I have nothing to hide.
I'm still not happy. Things car4love and I wrote are being used against her in the most dishonest and malicious way, and the person using them doesn't have the right to have ever seen them.
Finally found out what happened in the phone conference.
Opposing counsel does not believe I can't afford to give the sparrow all the cash she wants, and wants me to sell the house if I can't. It's a shakedown. Sparrow gets less if I sell. No question about it. GC
Today I found out from my accountant that if our divorce decree stated that H was to use his IRA to pay me off, he could have avoided paying any penalities. This suggests it might be a way for you to pay her off without losing the house - not a good way, but a way none-the-less.
If you go this way, make sure the IRS and legalese are covered properly. We didn't do it that way, so now my H has big penalties to pay. And here I thought he was not paying any price for this at all!
What have they done to you. WHAT. Read what you wrote?
Gray - read what NCWalker wrote. What's with that? Don't they have a life?
Seems they have no life other than tracking you. When that little "project" is over, what will they have left between them? When the crisis passes, they will have had only one pattern established for their R - and it involved espionage and deception.
If they are using what was posted against you or car4love in a malicious way and it is standing up in court, I would say the judge needs to have his/her head examined. Not that that will do any good.
But really. It is pretty obvious that this is a marriage building site. There are a whole slew of sites on divorce advice.
If they did do that and it gave them some advantage, at best I would say it is unfortunate. But those kinds of things have a way of catching up to you, KWIM? Call it karma, God's justice, whatever. It WILL catch up with them.
Well, y'all, I can't keep up. And I don't know what to write. Thank you.
Worse things have happened. It's just sort of horrible. I was guilty of a little subterfuge in the heaviest time of crisis. To hear everybody talk about how wonderful and honest I am, you should know, I did a few sneaky things to help car4love, and to try to get the APs to stop. Nothing nasty. But I was not always honest. It wasn't the best way to deal with things. It was a bad time.
One thing I never did though, was intentionally hurt anyone.
Did you do sneaky things or did you do things that exposed their affair?
Those are two different items.
Oh, and since everything that's being written here is being read by the opposing side, then I say "Welcome, everyone! Thanks so much for coming to visit. Please, send me e-mail. I'd love to hear from you. I'm not kidding -- I'd really like to know how you guys are doing."
GC, we're not setting you up for sainthood. Don't sweat it. Anything you did back then was at the height of your emotions and nothing, nothing is as bad as what they're doing.
Let's put all that to bed. It isn't a big deal. I'm glad it's all out in the open, but I don't like the way it got there.
Since I have an audience, my anonymity here is sort of lost. Certainly I'll continue to write honestly about this experience, but it feels a little like a performance.
I'm no longer enjoying the protection that plan B was supposed to give me. I'm letting too much information in, and my own D is too hairy. Everything still hurts, too. Stupid, still being vulnerable to it after a year of this. I should be a tough, cold, hard S.O.B. by now. But I know of many others who feel the same after a similar stretch has gone by, so it isn't unusual.
How do you help when there is nothing that will help - except maybe time.
I don't know if this quote will help or not.
7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee eexperience, and shall be for thy good. D&C 122:7
Maybe it sounds trite, or mushy - I hope you don't think I am not listening, or that I would discount your feelings.
It's just that..........It's just that I want to see you look to the future now, and find some measure of joy.
Do you think it's time?
Are you up for it?
Do you believe in yourself?
I have met you, and if I had to make a judgement call, I would BET ON YOU.
Hmmm. Okay, since we're talking about legal issues, I want to know whether you've broken any law of your state by exposing the affair. Is it libel, defamation, or harassment? Will charges be filed? Will you have to defend yourself against these actions?
If not, then as far as I'm concerned, there is not really anything you need to worry about.
J, I've broken no laws. No harassment, no libel, nothing like any of that. The few things I did were tame, tame, tame. Almost a joke. But I did them on the sly, so I feel a little guilty about that.
SS... I try to see that future. Thanks for the D&C verse. It's the first I've ever read. I like the book of Job.
ac2ally, I DID try google before I posted! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
...but you gave away the top secret code for yes2rday! Imagine what the TG and li'l birdie will do with such knowledge!
"Such knowledge is worth more than any for2ne, Cookie!" - Early 1970's 7Up commercial, referring 2 the 'uncola nut' in a parody of the original "Kung Fu" TV series.
It seems that reading my emails and reading my MB posts made it easier for the sparrow to view me as a manipulative, crazy villain.
I feel it's a good time to comment on the recent excitement. Or how about retelling my story instead?
It's true; as the A began, I felt I knew better than the sparrow what was best for her.
She'd suddenly become cruel and nasty. She treated me, her husband, who loved her dearly, like an annoying reject. She took every opportunity to snarl at me or run me down. She told me at dinner once that her yoga was making her see the world more positively and that I was becoming a cynical jerk. I said that I was hurt by that, and that I wished she would show me some love and concern, and that it seemed instead that she was gloating, as if we were in some kind of competition.
This is not my wife, I thought. After I found out about the A, MB told me she was addicted, and it made sense. Most everybody with whom I discussed the sparrow's behavior asked me if she was on drugs or mentally ill.
And I read about plan A. Break my own bad habits - good! Be as attractive to my spouse as possible - good! Be as cheerful as possible - good! Be kind and giving - good! Be tolerant of cruelty and patient with indecisiveness - hard, but good! All these things... always good!
Nothing my sparrow did in the months to follow suggested she was any better equipped to make the decisions she was forcing on both of us, so I continued in my belief that she was not herself. I figured as long as I continued to be my best self (which by the way I tried to be even when she wasn't around! Now that's manipulation!), there was a chance she would change.
The sparrow saw OM right under my nose, had him drop her off at our house while I was there. She told me she was looking forward to meeting his family. Afterward she told me how nice they were! How complimentary! She told me she was enjoying having him hammer away at her. She expected me to be her buddy! What sane person would do these things?
I wept and suffered. And if I heard about something some other BS had done that helped convince their WS to change back into themselves, I would try it.
I tried to help car4love as much as I could. We were in the same boat - powerless, two rag dolls getting dragged behind a truck. Each of us tried to gain some control by doing what we thought might help. We discussed those things, encouraged each other.
But after all those months, and no positive sign, I had to start accepting that the sparrow had drowned her former self in the tub, and had decided to be the faithless, cruel, selfish thing that pretty much avoided me completely by then. I went into plan B. Knowing what she was up to hurt me too much. It had been five months, and everything still hurt. I was trying to take care of myself, but I was too thin and I was smoking too much. When I heard that OM referred to himself and my wife as "the family" I had to get out.
I went to plan B. I still had hope that my wife would return. I heard HHDLXIV say, "It is always bad to lose hope". So I tried to have hope. I tried to avoid knowing what was going on. The divorce shambled forward. I felt a little more peace, though I was still ruled by frustration, confusion, and sadness.
I'd become able to have a little fun, had some of my humor back. The holidays passed, painfully. Car4love had her child. The sparrow finally filed for divorce. And here we are, a year after the affair started, the APs as nasty as they could be.
My hope is gone, along with any desire to associate with the sparrow. Too much abuse for too long. The sparrow is lost to me. And sadly, that's not an M.P., that's an H.P. I'd give anything to help her, but she doesn't want my help. She lives in my neighborhood. She doesn't care if I lose my house. I've done nothing to her, and I am nothing to her.
I gave her eleven years. She gave me a few crappy books she got for free and went to give OM a BJ.
Still a ways to go before I'm out of this mess, before I can make something new out of my life. More grief. Sadness, anger, all that. A legal fight, financial uncertainty. All of it just has to run itself down, and I'm sure to be all right. My soul is intact.
My oldest brother has a girlfriend who's crazy about him. My middle brother is getting married in a few weeks. Their baby brother has to start over, and somehow leave the past behind.
That's how manipulative and nasty I am. So cram it, Tin Man.
I know that you are in the midst of the legal and financial nightmare right now, so it is very hard to look to the future in any positive way. And I know we are not supposed to "live" in the future anyway, but several months ago Gimble gave me the best advice I think I have ever rec'd and that was to look ahead and envision the kind of person I wanted to be as well as the kind of life I wanted to lead.
I think you should try to do this Gray. I know that you do not have it in you to even think about dating now. Too much pain, too much of a blow to your self-esteem and then all the other crap currently going on.
BUT, can you begin to envision your life as you want it to be. Even envision a great love coming along, no face or particulars but just envision the great love.
Maybe camping with her and traveling, as I know you like these things.
And maybe a little baby Gray someday.
What ever we think about the most we attract into our life, (the universal law of attraction)
And when she appears in your life, it will all be effortless. You won't have to think about it, worry about it and the energy dating takes will be there automatically.
Start envisioning Gray and planning on having a great summer.
Dude, reading your post brought me right back to last x-mas, when Dylan's affair was really gaining steam. The cruelty was unbearable. Actually, the affair was unbearable. The cruelty just made it REALLY unbearable. Her affair partner was our roommate and on more than one occaision she left me sobbing and alone to go down the hall to her lover's room.
If I woke up in the morning alone and went to search for her, I was told I was 'intruding' and that I was acting like a control freak. So I know how you feel.
I think I know that you have gotten beyond taking any of this personally, that you didn't deserve any of that.
Quote
My oldest brother has a girlfriend who's crazy about him. My middle brother is getting married in a few weeks. Their baby brother has to start over, and somehow leave the past behind.
And when this is over, and you are ready to move on (with or without the sparrow) know that you will be doing so with a strength and wisdom that very few ever achieve.
I respect you a great deal, Gray. I sense great things in store for you.
In one single moment your whole life can turn 'round I stand there for a minute starin' straight into the ground Lookin' to the left slightly, then lookin' back down World feels like it's caved in - proper sorry frown Please let me show you where we could only just be, for us I can change and I can grow or we could adjust The wicked thing about us is we always have trust We can even have an open relationship, if you must I look at her she stares almost straight back at me But her eyes glaze over like she's lookin' straight through me Then her eyes must have closed for what seems an eternity When they open up she's lookin' down at her feet
Dry your eyes mate I know it's hard to take but her mind has been made up There's plenty more fish in the sea Dry your eyes mate I know you want to make her see how much this pain hurts But you've got to walk away now It's over
So then I move my hand up from down by my side It's shakin', my life is crashin' before my eyes Turn the palm of my hand up to face the skies Touch the bottom of her chin and let out a sigh 'Cause I can't imagine my life without you and me There's things I can't imagine doin', things I can't imagine seein' It weren't supposed to be easy, surely Please, please, I beg you please She brings her hands up towards where my hands rested She wraps her fingers round mine with the softness she's blessed with She peels away my fingers, looks at me and then gestures By pushin' my hand away to my chest, from hers
Dry your eyes mate I know it's hard to take but her mind has been made up There's plenty more fish in the sea Dry your eyes mate I know you want to make her see how much this pain hurts But you've got to walk away now It's over
And I'm just standin' there, I can't say a word 'Cause everythin's just gone I've got nothin' Absolutely nothin'
Tryin' to pull her close out of bare desperation Put my arms around her tryin' to change what she's sayin' Pull my head level with hers so she might engage in Look into her eyes to make her listen again I'm not gonna f***in', just f***in' leave it all now 'Cause you said it'd be forever and that was your vow And you're gonna let our things simply crash and fall down You're well out of order now, this is well out of town She pulls away, my arms are tightly clamped round her waist Gently pushes me back and she looks at me straight Turns around so she's now got her back to my face Takes one step forward, looks back, and then walks away
Dry your eyes mate I know it's hard to take but her mind has been made up There's plenty more fish in the sea Dry your eyes mate I know you want to make her see how much this pain hurts But you've got to walk away now It's over
I know in the past I've found it hard to say Tellin' you things, but not tellin' straight But the more I pull on your hand and say The more you pull away
Dry your eyes mate I know it's hard to take but her mind has been made up There's plenty more fish in the sea Dry your eyes mate I know you want to make her see how much this pain hurts But you've got to walk away now.
Awesome lyrics. I'll have 2 look that song up on iTunes or someplace.
It may be TRUE about the recent past, but I would now challenge you (and the songwriter, for that matter) 2 find the "sequel" that tells us (and anyone reading on here) just who gc is going 2 be from now on.
The world is waiting, eagerly... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
How much pain is there to have loved one and only one and be rejected?
It is tremendous. To be so dedicated to one and realize that the one to whom we were dedicated was less so.
Unimaginable.
Unthinkable.
As a creature of light, it is inconceivable to think that there is a creature of darkness. That would CHOOSE it. And vis-a-vis.
But travelling through time, the distance is marked by wisdom, not footsteps. And as we make this journey, it is wisdom that we gain.
And we realize that not everyone is like us. That there are things that don't make sense, nor is there a requirement that they do.
What does that really change?
It only changes our perception. The Bible, above almost all else, extols the value of wisdom. But what is it really?
We enter this world knowing nothing. And quickly piece together a mindset. A Tower of Babylon erected on the nuances of what we consider just and right. A monument of our understanding of what makes the world go around. We desparately try and build our Tower and CONVINCE ourselves that it is good and beuatiful and impregnable.
But it is only OUR tower. And perhaps, in our haste and the folly of our youth, we erect it a little too fast. For in our youth, the brick and mortar of wisdom is lacking. Thus our tower is a spindly, spidery, beautiful thing.
A wonder to behold.
Yet it cannot weather the first storm.
And it gets damaged. But now, through wisdom, we can mix a little concrete. And we sacrifice some of that beauty for some stability. And our tower is a little stronger, but perhaps, at least to us, somewhat less aesthetically pleasing.
And with each passing storm, we make the exchange. Beauty for stability. And we become afraid. That the beauty of our tower will soon be replaced. The spires and minarets and machicolations that were so splendid will be replaced by blocks and shoring and functional pieces.
And where will our tower be? The dream of youth? The golden path? What sacrifices will we make to replace the dream with what works?
An interesting picture.
I mean, why struggle? Let's leave our Tower of Babylon on the drawing board. Where it can be a flight of fancy to be admired and never realized.
Oh to know what those who have finished the journey know. For the real beauty is not the tower. The real beauty is the magic of the dance, the orchestration of the effort, the flexibility of change in progress.
The fun of the game is in the playing, not the outcome.
To chance and lose against being afraid to take the chance. On losing day, your choice between the two will be much more different than in retrospect.
What do you want?
Which do you choose?
To throw yourself against the storm to see if you can survive or head for the shelter and confine yourself?
To dream of soaring and try and soar or join the masses and say it cannot be done?
The state of excellence is merely the state of giving your all. It is not measured by accomplishments, but by effort.
How can you judge a prisoner of war on his accomplishments when he is confined? How can you judge an athelete on his accomplishements if he is drafted by a team who has no will to win? How can you judge the musician on his accomplishments if he is given poorly made instruments? How can you judge the scientist on his accomplishments if his basic theories are untrue?
What is the definition of the finish line if there is no definition of the starting line? What does a finish line mean, without a start?
It is not where you end up, but how far you travel. And how well you travel. And what hearts you touch along the way.
Our towers have taken some hits. And to what end? Certainly not the end of me. In the face of the unforseen, in the face of the plague, the cataclysm, I say start anew and rebuild. And the NEXT time, I'll weather that storm. I will overcome.
And those around us? Well. Some will mock, but some will join the fight. And were I to choose? I would pick those who would join. And what better way to cull the chaff than with a little wind. Winnowing the wheat involves throwing it to the winds. Some stand, some are blown away. None escape the discrimination of the experience.
You know more now. About yourself. About those around you. You can be more discriminating in the materials you select to build your tower. A tower erected out of whimsy and fantasy will only stand in good times. But the knowledgable builder, the wise builder, can still construct beauty. And it will stand.
This week, I've regained the ability to cry over almost nothing. And I've had plenty of sleep. First, today at my desk, I cried as I read about Marla Ruzicka.
Then I was listening to the radio on the way home, and a man was talking about his experience finding his faith and becoming a pastor. He told stories of damaged people who he'd helped to find peace. Tears rolled.
As I drew closer to home, I imagined something I've imagined often, for many months. I imagined seeing the sparrow face to face, with nobody else around. Imagined her coming to my house, sorry. But not really sorry. That's where the fantasy always goes sour. She says, more or less, forgive me, but only wants to feel better. Doesn't have any interest in me or in what it's like for me. Just wants to feel better, then go away. Even with that bad ending, I told myself what I usually do: that it's a stupid, narcissistic fantasy. A ridiculous indulgence. Wished that it would go away, that I could stop stroking myself with that dumb thing I keep imagining. And tears rolled.
I can say this much for sparrow. I don't think she would ever come to me asking for forgiveness and offering nothing. She'll just stick to the "offering nothing" part and stay away.
I heard the man on the radio talking about how your pain, the hurt that comes to you, is all "recyclable", how it can be turned into courage, honesty, and compassion, all those good things. More tears.
I got home to find a bag on the porch. Things I packed with the sparrow's stuff, and she's decided that these things belong to me. A photo of my brothers and me when I was a baby. A recent picture of my father. A little reflection my mother wrote a few years ago when she took a walk through her hometown. Some mugs given to us by one of my aunts. A tile with an owl on it (I like owls). A few other things.
On top, a note from the sparrow, what do you say we hook up and discuss divorce stuff?
How does she know I didn't mean to give her those things?
I haven't cried like this in months. The floodgates have broken wide open.
She was everything to me, and in a way, she still is. I cannot find a way to not love her. Today, I feel exactly the way I felt a year ago. D-day anniv. is a few days away.
I'm okay, but I'm soliciting advice. If you get bored tonight, email me at [email]gcloud@earthlink.net.[/email] Messages from interlopers will be deleted, unread.
"Reading about your troubles, tqt... we've seen many of the same things, haven't we?"
And here I was thinking that Spidey and I had our own little self-contained, micro-environment here... and waiting for the invoice from MB and their web hosting service...
I feel sorry for the people who actually weed through my drivel just to get to Spidey's words of wisdom.
Yep, Gray, we have seen many of the same things.
I've become a lurker in recent days for some reason... only thing I can think of is because I'm numb. I was thinking today that maybe I've become "immobilized by disbelief" -- I still can't believe this "has happened to me."
Your email offer-- appreciated, and I'll take you up on it.
"Or if you want to talk about the future instead."
That's a must, isn't it? One thing I'm really ticked off about is that, contrary to human nature, the past is something I can't think about -- or rather, choose not to, as best I can. Like I'm training myself to eliminate almost 25 years from my memory. It only works some of the time, of course, and doing my damndest to concentrate on the future is the only way out, as hard as that is in itself right now.
"Spidey has been so good to you, tqt. You must be grateful."
Grateful beyond words. Literally. Even at this moment, I can't come up with anything that comes close to describing how appreciative I am, and humbled... and amazed...
Two things: 1) You've got mail 2) As long as you are alive you won't learn to not love her. Chances are good that despite all she has done to you and all the pain you have felt, there will be some love for her in your heart, even when the D is final and you move on with someone new. In your instance (and in some instances) the WS blows on past with their new lives and new loves and the BS's left behind grapple with it and struggle and eventually recover but continue for a long time to feel some love in their heart for their WS. Well DUH--the BS wasn't the one who stopped loving and left!
You, Gray, are a lovely, sensitive, caring man and I have no doubt you will one day find new love in your life (hey if I can, you sure can!)--but it's a little like having another child: it's now TWO loves, one doesn't replace the other. Does that make sense? On some levels I will probably always have some love for my exH and care for his well-being and at least not wish him ill--and I'll bet you'll do the same.
So stop trying to NOT love her. Accept that you will probably always love her TO SOME DEGREE and move on knowing that it's okay to not hate her. Oh...and buddy, let this day end too. ((GC))
Next year, I do not want to wake up thinking, today is the two-year anniversary of d-day.
It was sort of a weak d-day. She downplayed the EA and lied. She basically said, "I'm having a little EA and it's because you're a bad H and drove me to it."
The real horror show started on 4/24, when I snooped on sparrow's email and saw the gooey stuff she emailed the tin man from Italy the previous week, along with the truth about the EA.
She pretends now that we gave it "one last try" and that it didn't work out. The truth? She checked out and did not try, just moped and watched me, looking for excuses to have her A.
Even so, during the first days after d-day, there were a few occasions where she actually said things like, "I can feel myself coming back to you," and "I want our life back."
But thanks to the tin man's continuing emails, she quickly forgot all that and started contact again, lying about it, then became cruel and secretive, then despite knowing his wife had just found she was pregnant, began aggressive efforts to destroy his family.
(Tin man reads, says to self, Nuh uh, it was already destroyed because car4love is too controlling. Tin man and sparrow tell selves whatever they need to get through the day.)
End of d-day anniversary post. Yes, feeling a little shaky, but managing okay. It's a marked date, but things are not any different today than they were yesterday.
Still love sparrow (but not IN LOVE with her, nyeah, nyeah), still married, still have no hope.
That's B.S., I do have hope for my M. I actually do. I'd rather not, and I know it's stupid, and the math does not work out, but... it won't go away. Not entirely.
I accept that sparrow is not the kind of person who, even if she wanted to, could ever make amends. Yet I still have hope that she could be.
And I obviously don't mean a thing to her. Yet I still have hope that I do.
So there it is. Intellectually, I know the score. But my heart isn't there. My heart is still in my M, even if I don't want it to be.
Gray -- your D-day is just about a year after mine. I'd been living with the horror of my ex's relationship with OM, but on D-day, she decided to try to sever my relationship with our daughter. Horror beyond horror.
It's been two years since then for me. Two years of a whole lot of work and grieving and learning and growing. You're halfway there (dare I say you're half baked? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).
I remember how I was last year. I nearly walked away from my marriage at that point, but then some serendipitous things happened, or maybe I just went insane and stuck with something that was long since dead.
I chose to have a summer instead. Told my attorneys to go pound sand, that I was done spending money on them. Told my ex that I wasn't playing anymore, too. SPent the entire summer walking around the neighborhood with DD, soaking in the sun and getting a double dose of fun and laughter to make up for the previous spring and summer of tears.
There were still some really difficult things to go through. My ex's engagement, primarily, the absolutely rotten e-mail she sent me right before she got engaged, the threats she made to my relationship with DD, the financial separation and its aftermath.
But you know, a lot of the stuff that's happened is like the dying aftershocks of a powerful earthquake. Everything -- EVERYTHING -- is different now. But my rebuilt house? Man, it is SO much more earthquake proof than it was. Yours will be, too. Trust me on this.
My first D-Day was Feb. 3, 1999--the day he moved out of state to live with his lover. I had NO IDEA it was coming, but mainly that was because I didn't want to see it coming. AAAAAAAnyway, since that first D-Day there have been several more discoveries and many days that rocked me, but that day was "The D-Day"--know what I mean?
My D-Day anniversary, I felt all that insecurity and instability again at first--talk about TRIGGERS!! At first, I was sick to my stomach, and my nerves were on edge, and my heart was heavy...I bet you can identify, huh? Parts of you relive it--and other parts of you remind yourself that you're not back there anymore. By the end of the day, I pulled it back together, took myself out to dinner, and ended the day (you know what I mean <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and from that point on, I vowed to not let my ex's affairs have ONE MORE MINUTE of my life.
GC, one year ago yesterday (or the day before) your sparrow tore down what you thought was your life. You didn't see it coming--OR--you didn't want to see it coming. After having your entire life foundation crumbled, parts of you returned and you decided (yes, it's a DECISION) that you'd like to try to save your marriage to sparrow...that you still loved her even though she had demolished your world and you thought maybe you two could reconstruct. Only trouble is, she didn't want to rebuild. Good, bad, or otherwise, the demolition was complete for her and she was gone never to return. You kept doing YOUR part of the rebuilding, hoping she might return one day, and you kept rebuilding you, hoping she'd see the ways you were changing and love you again.
Well, here it is...one year later...one trip around the sun and she is not coming back. So lil bro, you get to decide: are you going to keep giving her your minutes? Does her affair get to keep that day, or is that a day you are going to reclaim for graycloud? Does she get more of your tears, or has she taken enough of them from you? YOU get to decide this, lil bro. I personally chose to dedicate every future February 3rd in my life to me--not in a selfish way, but in a "I'm reclaiming this day and his affair can't have it" way. I want my Feb. 3rd's now and in the future, and I don't want to lose a whole day of my life to the past or to someone who doesn't love me. Well...I love me, so I take my February 3rds and love myself and do something special just for me that I like. D-day is now MY DAY, and I hope maybe next year, when we have taken one more trip around the sun, that your D-day will be "Celebrate GC Day." I even volunteer to throw the party! (((((GC)))))
Your true and faithful friend,
FNCJ
P.S. One of my favorite songs has lyrics: "I will go down with this ship--I will not put my hand up and surrender. There will be no white flag above my door; I'm in love and always will be." If it makes you feel any better, I was in the marriage for a long time after the divorce was final--not because I really thought he'd come back, but because I wasn't ready to leave. Does that make sense? It's not stupid...it feels illogical and foolhardy...but it's completely normal. Your heart will leave your marriage when it is good and ready and no sooner--and that's cool.
To see that people can suddenly become so cruel, and that normally decent people can behave with such pride, cowardice, impatience, selfishness, and dishonesty, is a rough lesson. People like this are everywhere. Sometimes they're sleeping next to you. Sometimes, if you aren't careful, they're you!
The APs will read this post like they read all the rest, and it won't even affect them. They'll say I'm a self-righteous know-it-all, or they'll say I'm idealistic, and that those rules don't apply to real people, but only outraged moralists.
Or sparrow will say GC isn't such a perfect angel, he misrepresents himself!
The fact that I sometimes drop whatever I'm doing and just lie down and put my face in my hands and sort of shudder for a little while doesn't mean a thing to them.
So, C.J., yeah, I am still giving her my tears.
One time, years ago, the sparrow and I were driving. I was going on about some ideas I had - let's do this, or maybe this, or maybe this. Know what would be cool? Blah, blah, blah. She stopped me and said something like, "GC, you're outshining my dim little light."
I knew exactly what she meant, and I cared. Ever since she said it, it's been there in my mind. I didn't always heed what she'd said. I can get carried away. But that thing that she'd told me was always there, close in my memory.
Well, her light is the bright one now. She took mine and smashed it. It may be fixable, but it's still smashed.
Dear Mr. Graycloud, I am writing this in response to your posts of the last few days.
It causes me much sadness to see the state of mind which I find you in this last little while. I can almost feel the emotional battering you have taken, though I realize I get only a small glimpse of the totality of the feelings you try to express here.
I am writing this formal letter to request that you leave off examining the wounds, and begin the healing process. I realize that it is good to know the extent of the damage before attempting the cure, but feel you have suffered enough, and that it is time to go on to the next stage of your life.
It has been said that the holy gift of time always takes the form of NOW. We can learn from the past, and we should plan for the future, but we have to live now.
I don't know if you will ever get an answer to the question "WHY?"
I think this is an important question, but I think it's time for a new one.
That would be:
What do I do now?
You are too valuable, too important, and to good to continue in your present direction. I will point out however, that only you can change your direction. No one else can do it for you.
If you were to drive by here on your way home from work tonight, I would be tempted to take you out on an over night campout. Perhaps to the edge of the Grand Canyon in a remote place where no one would bother us. I think it would be good for you to talk. Maybe you could sing, because that often helps.
Then I would ask you about your future. It is that I am most interested in, not your past. Your happiness lies out there in the future - I believe in it. I think it can come sooner - in the next few years. I do not believe it will be many years away unless you fail to work for it.
I am glad you have so many friends. Notice how much they care for you. Notice how they hurt when you are down. Notice how all of us try to help you find happiness -
I DO NOT believe your light has been smashed. I see it in your eyes from time to time. I see in in who you are, and in what you are.
I believe you know it's in there.
Do you have faith that there is a way to make it brighter?
"She stopped me and said something like, "GC, you're outshining my dim little light.""
Ew! You know? Really good quality flat black flocked paper (the kind of stuff you line telescope 2bes with) is still flat black even under bright lights. I don't see APs as having "dim lights" so much as good dark surfaces (stated kind of like I prefer 2 say 'that pulls a good vacuum' instead of 'that sucks!').
"I knew exactly what she meant, and I cared. Ever since she said it, it's been there in my mind. I didn't always heed what she'd said. I can get carried away. But that thing that she'd told me was always there, close in my memory."
So, if I read you right, were you supposed 2 dim your light not 2 upstage hers? Or, would it maybe have been better 2 keep shining at 100 watts in hopes that she'd absorb some of the positivity? In the end, though, I think it's most important, above everything, 2 be sincerely, authentically GC. (because I myself have tried so many times in the past 3 years 2 be better than better, or different, or what-she-needs-now, and find that ME is pretty much all I can be... ...but I am a tad bichener for the effort <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
"Well, her light is the bright one now."
Maybe, but it's radioactive.
"She took mine and smashed it. It may be fixable, but it's still smashed."
She can't do anything 2 you or your light that you don't permit. Your light will shine through! (gad, 2long, LISTEN 2 yourself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
First of all, GC she did not smash your light as it shines through every time I see you post to others. I see it in your love of music, your humor, your sense of being a good friend. You have a great future and we all see it and are waiting for to see it too.
Now minor t/j.
Quote
(because I myself have tried so many times in the past 3 years 2 be better than better, or different, or what-she-needs-now, and find that ME is pretty much all I can be... ...but I am a tad bichener for the effort )
2L, I loved this! Yes, you is all YOU can be but you are a better YOU. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
ok, end of t/j ...sorry GC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
One time, years ago, the sparrow and I were driving. I was going on about some ideas I had - She stopped me and said something like, "GC, you're outshining my dim little light."
I knew exactly what she meant, and I cared.
Well, her light is the bright one now. She took mine and smashed it. It may be fixable, but it's still smashed.
First things first:
(((((((((((((Graycloud in the Great White North)))))))))))))
Now, my sad lil bro, let me tell you a parable:
Once upon a time there was a beautiful scented votive candle and a cute little tealight candle. The beautiful scented votive candle was fragrant and a little bigger than the little tealight--it's flame was brighter, the golden glow was more beautiful to the eye, and the scent just made the votive a joyous creation to those who burned it. The little tealight told the votive, "You're outshining my little light."
The votive cared that the little tealight felt outshone, so the votive started to shine a little less. The votive was meant to be in a crystal holder and give off fragrant oil scents, but it stopped doing that because the little tealight couldn't do that.
The little tealight did not realize that it was not meant to be a votive. It was meant to be a tealight in a potpourri holder, but it kept trying to glow like a votive and burning the potpourri. Also, it would burn itself out too quickly and it was not able to be used for it's purpose. So, rather than trying to do it's job to the best of it's ability...or rather than trying to better itself so that it had the fragrant oils and size and wick of a votive, the little tealight decided to tear down the votive and make it not do what it was meant to do either.
One day, the tealight was all burnt out, and not glowing as brightly as the votive, nor was it giving a beautiful fragrance--and the tealight decided to hurt the votive. It covered up the votive and no more light was seen by the votive...and then the tealight, all dim and burnt out, left the votive under the dark cover.
The poor votive thought that it was ugly, stinky, and couldn't bring light anymore. It felt like a melted pile of useless goo, and no one could even see how messed up and wrecked it was! But the votive was a well-made candle and was still in a good holder (even though it FELT shapeless). Underneath the dark cover, the votive began to reshape and harden into a useful votive again, but it still felt so dark and still had no fragrance.
**********
GC, can you see how you are the votive and sparrow is the tealight? Your light did not outshine her dim little light...you were created to do YOUR purpose and shine in YOUR way, and she was created for HER purpose and to shine in HER way. When you stopped shining so brightly so that she wouldn't feel so bad, you lost your purpose...and so did she. She wasn't supposed to be a votive; she was supposed to be a tealight! And GC, your votive light is not smashed and unfixable. You are just still under the dark cover and feeling liquid--but if you burn candles at all, you know that a good votive in a good holder can go completely liquid and completely lose it's shape, but still be completely functional. It just needs to harden and reshape! GC, your flame is not out--it's just hidden and where no one can see it, even you. You are still a votive! So the question is this: are you going to let the tealight hurt you because you're not a tealight, you're a votive? Or--are you going to become the votive you are meant to be, come out from under the dark cover, and let people see your light again?
Okay, how 'bout a VW metaphor? (Ss, I just KNOW you saw THIS coming!):
A company that makes adapters to mate various engines to wind-cooled VW transaxles compares the costs and wisdom of doing so, versus building a high performance VW engine in this manner:
Stock non-VW engine - like a Toyota V6 or something: inexpensive, good power, long engine life.
High-performance air-cooled VW engine: Expensive firecracker with a short fuse.
C.J., I thought the metaphor was dead when 2long declared "Ew!" to it, but it lives on!
I'm not as broken down as I may be coming across. I'm not some poor old self-pitying lump, most of the time. But I post when I feel like that. And I have been pretty sad the last couple of weeks.
SS is right, I'm in the past and the muck and crud of all this still. It's where I belong right now. I don't date, by choice. My assets are all tied up with sparrow's. I'm still waiting to work on my house. I'm still married. That fact is too present, always interrupting when I think about the future.
I do think about it. I think about restoring my house, and doing more music, and finishing my degree, and about what weaver told me a few days back, when she told me to imagine that new thing that I can have with someone else. I think about doing more volunteer stuff. Sheeeit, yesterday my friends and I were playing basketball with a bunch of kids, and I even thought about having a child of my own for a second.
Now there's a faraway possibility.
FF, thanks for helping out with the "light" metaphor. Let's kill that beast, whaddya say?
Make sure it has a sidecar, for all those cute girls you're going 2 be dating soon! (one at a time, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
Seein' as I'm house poor, and hope to remain so, it will be something modest, like an old Honda CB from the 1970s. Nothing flashy. I'll let the big fakers and yuppies ride their fancy, precious bikes.
I have a friend with a '72 CB360, and he never touches it, but he won't let me have it. You'd think he'd display more generosity towards a friend in need, the big jerk. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
2long, the girls will ride right on the seat with me, daddy-o.
GC, my H collects and sometimes restores '70s japanese bikes though he tends to like Yamaha and Suzuki more than Honda. I agree with the girl riding on the back..much more romantic to have her arms around your waist. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Depends on what you are looking for GC, but I can ask him for help or I can ask him to email you. Yeah, seems like idiot type topic don't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Hope you don't mind me leaping in, but I've been following this thread for some time now, even though I've only just registered as a user to post. Just wanted to encourage you in your Motorcycle Toe-Dipping. Depending on what you want, you probably won't have to spend a lot of money and the freedom is incredibly gratifying. We once owned a 1981 Kawasaki GPZ-550 that we used for years to get us "around" (no $ for a car) and it was wonderful. There is something so immeasurably uplifting and freeing about being on a bike, the engine whining beneath you, the wind screaming in your ears. You don't have to be foolish and dangerous to enjoy it. My opinion, like Faithful's, is that Rice Burners are the way to go. Affordable, easy to maintain, and fun.
Of course now, I just go and ride my horse for a few hours -- I get the same screaming wind in my ears and powerful engine beneath me when I race up and down the beach. Wish I could do it more than once in a Blue Moon, LOL!
I'm really sorry about the CP sig. I've since removed it so it doesn't hurt anyone else. I read in some of your past posts that you liked Flaming Lips and a few other groups I know and like but I didn't think about anyone really recognizing my sig line and stumbling, even slightly, by it. D'uh!! It's a heart-wrenching song!! *Slapping forehead* It was pretty thoughtless of me. I'll stay away from lyrics for siggy lines, okay?
SLH, it's really okay. I wish you'd keep the sig. It's good music. It didn't hurt.
Remembering back to that time a year ago... that music is part of a soundtrack, a landscape. An environment and a mood that I remember vividly, but can't describe. Like every person's unique experience.
Whenever I recall "In My Place", I go back there. I remember a beautiful day in the beginning of June. I drove north to go fishing with the sparrow's relatives, listened to this music, and sobbed. I talked to my brother for a while, but was crying pretty hard and had to hang up. Later, a marriage counselor returned my call - this was two days before sparrow told me she had no desire to save our marriage. I sat in a parking lot in a small town and this counselor talked to me for an hour, helping me to see things more clearly, insisting that we continue our conversation long after it should have ended. It was an act of pure generosity.
This memory is incredibly sad for me, but the kindness I received from the counselor - who called me several days later to make sure I was okay, but who I never met with - and the clarity she helped me reach... those are parts of the memory too, and they are things of beauty.
That weekend, I was in more pain than I ever thought I'd get. Far, far off the charts, for me at least. There were times when I seemed almost to detach from myself and examine the experience from outside. I was just astounded by it.
But that little piece of kindness I received made it a very special day. And that's in there too.
Coldplay cheated a little there, ripping off the opening from "When the Levee Breaks".
Coldplay cheated a little there, ripping off the opening from "When the Levee Breaks".
You know, I've thought that too, and also heard that Sum 41's "Pieces" is very similar to Coldplay's "The Scientist", though I haven't heard the former band's music to say. I guess it's all in the ear. Do you play an instrument? ("Musician" can mean a myriad things). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Isn't it wonderful to discover delicate facets of Beauty in memories of times that once horribly crippled us? To be able to gaze out over the horizon of our Past and Present and Future and see, not a landscape riddled with viscious thornbeds and fathomless pitfalls, but a terrain that, at least, we know we can navigate? That "soundtrack" you had mentioned -- I know it well. Anyone, I think, who has a love for music tends to apply certain songs to certain occassions in our own lives, at the risk of losing those songs forever. I'm happy to see you aren't letting that happen to you.
Just the same, I think I'll stick with my Star Trek sig for now. There's nothing heart-trending, tear-jerking or saddening about Borgs, LOL. Unless you are my husband, trying not to be assimilated by me. *LOL*
I have a song that reminds me of the pain of early post d-day a lot, because we bought the CD on our way 2 our out-o'-state property for a week of "something else". Ac2ally, our son went with us (we brought our model airplanes 2 work on as a distraction while we were there), and he picked out the CD.
I gotta 'fess out that for quite some time after that, I got a little kick out of my W's reactions 2 the following lyrics from one of the songs, "Run On":
"go tell that lonesome liar go tell that midnight rider tell the gamblin', ramblin' backslider tell them God Almighty gonna cut 'em down"
As new BS appear here, I try to get motivated to help them. But I'm so frustrated by the WS script: "You're trying to control me, you're invading my privacy, I can't ever love you again, I can't choose who I love, you've hurt me in the past, I never loved you, not like the OP."
Blah blah blah. They think they're in a unique and extraordinary circumstance, but despite the cruelty they show their spouses, their experiences and attitudes are all so tiresome and ordinary.
Know what it reminds me of? When details of the private lives of horrible dictators are revealed. These lives almost always turn out to be surprisingly mundane. Soldiers go into private bedrooms of these people when their regimes fall, and do they come upon libraries filled with the works of nihilist philosophers and the biographies of idolized tyrants? Nope. They find stacks of Chevy Chase movies, "Friends" DVDs, and Lionel Richie CDs.
Sorry for the vent. WS just seem annoying and spoiled to me today.
How do cops keep from getting burned out?
On a positive note, I had a great time with my brother and his pals this weekend.
One of the best things I ever heard about cops and how they can keep from becoming deadened to what they do was in a radio show about Thich Nhat Hanh and his retreats for police officers. There was a police officer who talked about how she didn't think she could do what he was teaching at first, but then she tried it.
It was a recent divorce. A custody battle. A transition gone bad -- a dad with two kids refusing to come out of the house, a mom outside frantic and panicked.
She said that in previous times, she would have just arrested the dad. Instead, she calmed him down enough to get the kids transitioned and sent them on their way with their mom. Then she sat down to talk to the dad.
Ten minutes later, this giant bear of a man was curled up in a little ball, sobbing on her shoulder.
That's what compassion is for.
The radio broadcast that I heard was from the public radio program "Speaking of Faith." You can listen to that particular show on their web site. It was pretty darned cool.
A little bird told me the sparrow's younger sister is pregnant. Second child, second father. Poor MIL must be so stressed out.
Another little bird told me something helps me to understand sparrow a little better. I know some of the ways people have reached out to her. They've said heartfelt and eloquent things to her. They've poured their hearts out. She's responded with inarticulate, clumsy, half-hearted gestures that place her at no risk and offer nothing.
Poor MIL. She must be so disappointed in her daughters. She tried to do the right things for them after they lost their father, and the two of them seem to have both gone into la-la land.
Me, the idea of ever having been with my wife is beginning to feel more abstract. Honestly, I can say... for the first time I can imagine running into her and not feeling much of anything at all.
But not today.
J, thank you for pointing me to that "Speaking of Faith" show, and for reminding me about compassion. Even though the idea is in my mind all the time, with my undisciplined ways, I'm prone to forgetting.
Compassion is tough stuff. Harder than anything else I've done, I think. You're welcome for the reminder.
Sparrow and her sister will thrive, or not, as time goes on. I wish them well in their painful journeys through life. We all have the opportunity to learn as we interact with our worlds. We all have the opportunity to allow events to control us, or to be in control of ourselves no matter what the outer events are. I hope they, and everybody, eventually manage it. Heck, I hope I eventually manage it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
That was a pretty deep musing. Are you sure it was only "a" beer? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I can't think of the song "sail on" so I will post the lyrics to "sail away", another classic! Instead of a boat, picture yourself on a bike, taking to the open road, wind in your hair and loving, funny, pretty girl on the back...
For you lil bro!
Artist: Styx Lyrics Song: Come Sail Away Lyrics
I'm sailing away, set an open course for the virgin sea I've got to be free, free to face the life that's ahead of me On board, I'm the captain, so climb aboard We'll search for tomorrow on every shore And I'll try, oh Lord, I'll try to carry on
I look to the sea, reflections in the waves spark my memory Some happy, some sad I think of childhood friends and the dreams we had We live happily forever, so the story goes But somehow we missed out on that pot of gold But we'll try best that we can to carry on
A gathering of angels appeared above my head They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said They said come sail away, come sail away Come sail away with me Come sail away, come sail away Come sail away with me
I thought that they were angels, but to my surprise They climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies Singing come sail away, come sail away Come sail away with me Come sail away, come sail away Come sail away with me
I've gotta ask . . . which "Sail On" are you guys talkin' about? Classic could be any number of things, right? lol. I can't claim to listen to any one kind of music so I am thinking it could be one of a few. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
The phrase "Sail On", when applied to music, always instills this kind of. . . I don't know, quietness, serenity, in my soul. Maybe because I live near the Big Water and sailing, or just being on or near the water, is such a large part of people's lives here. Out of curiousity (and a vast amount of boredom), I went on-line and sought out every song with "Sail On" as a title. Imagine my surprise to discover that many -- most -- are about moving forward in life after a relationship (why this surprises me I am not sure, lol). Either people gain a lot of perspective out alone on the water, or they think they will, in spirit if nothing else.
I know I have gleaned a few hard truths about myself and my surroundings while sitting on the beach, beer in hand, staring out at the waves. It's where I sometimes go to think when I need some sort of clarity in my life. I guess "Sailing On" is just an extension of that, actually doing what you were imagining.
Some people get a similar clarity by being near the mountains. I too love the mountains but my heart doesn't call out for them like it does the Ocean. Sorry, John Denver.
SS, I don't know much about punk, but I bet you know less.
You got that right.
"Sail On" is a classic.
That's what I was thinking when I did the quote. A classic poem by Joaquin Miller
However, I thought about it. Your grandmother was probably not an english teacher, and you probably didn't have to memorize lots of poems, and read lots of poems when you went to grandmas house. I'll include the full text below.
Sail on yourself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I try - and I know you do too. I left a nice thought with Binder, and this was my attempt to do so for you. Perhaps it will mean more now.
Columbus by Joaquin Miller
Behind him lay the gray Azores, Behind the Gates of Hercules; Before him not the ghost of shores, Before him only shoreless seas.
The good mate said: "Now must we pray, For lo! the very stars are gone. Brave Adm'r'l, speak; what shall I say?" "Why, say: 'Sail on ! sail on! and on!"'
"My men grow mutinous day by day; My men grow ghastly wan and weak." The stout mate thought of home; a spray Of salt wave washed his swarthy cheek.
"What shall I say, brave Adm'r'l, say, If we sight naught but seas at dawn?" "Why, you shall say, at break of day: 'Sail on! sail on! sail on! and on!' "
They sailed and sailed, as winds might blow, Until at last the blanched mate said: "Why, now not even God would know Should I and all my men fall dead.
These very winds forget their way, For God from these dread seas is gone. Now speak, brave Adm'r'l; speak and say" -- He said: "Sail on! sail on! and on!"
They sailed. They sailed. Then spake the mate: "This mad sea shows his teeth to-night; He curls his lips, he lies in wait, With lifted teeth, as if to bite;
Brave Adm'r'l, say but one good word; What shall we do when hope is gone?" The words leapt like a leaping sword: "Sail on! sail on! sail on! and on!"
Then, pale and worn, he kept his deck, And peered through darkness. Ah, that night Of all dark nights! And then a speck -- A light! a light! a light! a light!
It grew, a starlit flag unfurled! It grew to be Time's burst of dawn. He gained a world; he gave that world Its grandest lesson: "On! sail on!"
So, that's the way I see you. This is a place you have not been before - it's not for the faint of heart, but you sail on. I think you will find the shore you are looking for.
So, that's the way I see you. This is a place you have not been before - it's not for the faint of heart, but you sail on. I think you will find the shore you are looking for.
Cool! And the poems not bad either!
Well I don't know if Gray is getting inspired by all this "sail on" talk, but I am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Stilllovinghim,
I am a water person too. I am never more at peace than when I am on "my" island.
I'm thinking about the "Old Man & the Sea" now. Oh and also "The Shipping News"... both incredible.
I think I am going to rent "Old Man & the Sea" this weekend. What the hey, hey?
Well back to work for me. Another day, another dollar. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
When it comes down to it, they all mean, or at least imply, about the same thing. Uncharted shores. Unexplored territory. With only our clumsy, unfamiliar sextant and a hazy knowledge of the stars to guide us, we embark on our voyage.
Hi Weaver, Hi SS -- I love Hemmingway. And I thought that poem was fantastic, too! So often as a child I rebelled when I was force-fed worthy literature but somehow a few of the true greats managed to stick with me and not in my craw, lol! Only now can I look back and appreciate them. I just finished Kate Chopin again; perhaps she had something to do with my mood earlier! *grimacing and laughing* I find myself being drawn to her over & over when I want to be an independent Old Biddy. I need to put her down and leave her down.
Weaver, do you have the opportunity to escape to the Big Water often? Our "Peeg Vater" leaves a lot to be desired but it has the waves, sand, amazing scent (aaah!) and fish so it works! I try to take my Arabian gelding down there once a month or so and just ride for miles, thinking. It cleanses my soul and restores my sanity like nothing else in the world. Nothing compares.
SS, thanks for absolving me of my prior Meloncholies. When it comes down to it, I have nothing to gripe about. I just stumble sometimes, you know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Got to go set the cable-recorder-thingy for Battlestar Galactica, as H is out of town, and we missed most of last season. Darnit! I'm dyin' here!
Wanted to clarify -- I'm "dying" because I can't wait to see what happens next on the show (BSG), and I have to do the magnanimous, generous thing and wait for my H to come back from being out-of-town before I can watch it, too. LOL.
Well SLH, if you call Lake Superior the "big water" I do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I do love the ocean though, and I know what you are talking about. My dad was big on sailing...and canoeing, anything on the water. I think I inherited it.
I love Hemingway too. I'm back to a point in my life where I can watch "depressing", and it just makes me so happy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Have a good night, and I think I saw on your posts count that you are new here so WELCOME to MB. Enjoy the ride! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I hope you are here for marriage building and not because of infidelity.
The classic "Sail On" I was talking about... the Bad Brains tune.
I'll be going to an event this weekend, but I won't talk about it here.
SLH, I'm gaga for the ocean. Stupid, living in the middle of the continent. But you know, Weaver's lake is a beautiful, mysterious, really extraordinary place. I'm with you... mountains are nice, but the ocean is the ocean.
SLH, like weaver - and you may have assumed this - I'm curious about you.
SS, funny. That poem has the same meter as the Bad Brains tune. Maybe the Bad Brains ripped it off, though theirs is about a breakup.
You said, "I think you will find the shore you are looking for."
SS, you know what? I will. I know it. It's still vague though, where I'm headed.
Weaver, Lake Superior is certainly "BIG" enough, wouldn't you say? *grin* I inherited my love for the water from my father, too. He's still my "2nd best friend". *smile*
GC, I thought it might be Bad Brains -- but, hey -- it *could* have been Lionel Ritchie, just like those tyrannical dictators you mentioned a few pages back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> No, really, that song works here, too. LOL
LOL ~ Weaver, GC, your inquiring minds want to know, but gosh, guys, what are my diminutive troubles compared to so many of you!? My H & I are in love, always have been. I'm 31, Tiger (H) is 39. We've known eachother since I was 15, though we didn't begin dating until I was 19. We've been married for 10+ years, very happily for the most part. Recently, stresses outside our marriage (his 2 jobs, money, kids, the usual) have been wreaking havoc on our relationship. I'm sure you know the rest -- I've been feeling neglected, pushed aside, ignored, unappreciated, etc. I found myself getting too comfortable emotionally with other friends (yes, male, similar passions) when the person I should be depending on is Tiger, so I came here in hopes of bolstering my resolution to commit my EN only to my H. No, I never had an affair, P or E. Was I tempted? Yes, to the latter, never to the former. I know in my heart that Tiger is the only man for me. We are meant for one another. Were situational circumstances different, he would be fulfilling all of my needs, easily. There was a time when he did just that, and I hope he would say the same of me. But things have changed. Now, he leaves for work at by 7:30-ish AM and, having picked up a second job in order to buttress our gruesome finacial situation, he does not return home until well after 9 PM at least 4 nights a week. He is exhausted, I am exhausted. . . does anyone know where I am going? We get two full days to recuperate before it all begins anew, but in that time period he must cater to the kids as well as myself and the other general "things" that need to be attended to, and somebody ends up getting shafted. Lately we are both overwhelmed, depressed, stressed, edgy. And I know I can be a royal [censored].
Bitchy with the man I love, bitchy with the one I could not imagine being without, the one I adore, the one who makes me feel safe and anchored and alive.
But not for some time, and therein lies the problem.
Oh, and Sex? What's that? I read on the board a few days ago. . . I think it was JavaPrincess, mmmm, maybe not. . . who said that she spends all day wanting it and then by the time the end of the day comes she is too exhausted to do anything but fall into bed. Good grief, that could have been me typing! Does anyone else suffer from this? Can I get a Whoop Whoop?
I'm working on our problems, situational and otherwise -- but there is our history. Pretty standard fare, sans the adultery, I'd say. There have been times -- very few, albeit, but there nonetheless -- when I have considered leaving him. Not ever for anyone else. And I can honestly say I don't think he would cheat on or leave me. But then, "Them 'r famous last werds, 'ain't they?"
Oh, and yup, I'm Texan -- deep Southern by breeding but Texan by the grace of God! Yee-Haw!
GC, I hope your "event" goes well. I wish you could share it with us here, but I totally understand why you can't go into it. Just let us know if it was thumbs up or down, eh?
I think Harley's books are the only reason Tiger & I are still doing so well today, tho you're right, Weave, I need to start incorporating the principles more consistently and thoroughly. I've had HNHN for 8 years, and gradually accumulated all of Harley's other books. They have kept me sane! In fact, when this web site first came online, I came here often, tho back then there was no forum, and it was only recently that I discovered that they had added one. I know this stuff, most of it inside and out, but (as everyone here has discovered I am sure) putting it into action, consistently, daily, moment-by-moment, is the difficult part. And darn it, some days my Prozac just isn't working! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
The only experience I have had with someone unfaithful was in a long-term relationship that was heading towards marriage. . . and I can, single-handedly, claim that it was I and I alone who destroyed that relationship. It doesn't compare to a marriage, but I have been there, to some degree.
I am very fortunate in that Tiger is trying to read HNHN with me, tho it is slow going with him. But as I said earlier, I am very blessed compared to many. It was only because I was able to get my hands on Harley's books early enough, before there were any threatening, monumental problems. Others, I fear, were lost before they had a chance, and that thought troubles me greatly.
I stood up in the wedding. As is the custom, the limo made a couple of stops on the way to the reception. A girl I'd never seen before, a friend of my new SIL, followed in her car and made the stops with us. I'd noticed her at the wedding. She's damned good looking (that's for you Hemingway fans). Caught her eye and heard her name, but didn't talk to her just then.
Later, during dinner, I saw her sitting with a bunch of my relatives. One of my aunts said something about "that nice girl who ate with us". I spotted her sitting by herself, so I went over, sat down, said, "Annie, let's talk," and intro'd myself.
We talked for a nice stretch, and we were hitting it off. Then the DJ put on a tune Annie likes. She jumped up, said she'd be back, and ran out to the dance floor. Just then I spotted an old acquaintance and got dragged out to the bar.
A short while later, one of my cousins came up and said Annie was looking for me, worried that I was annoyed when she ran out to the dance floor. She eventually caught up with me, and asked if I was upset over her running off. I insisted that I wasn't. She said, "I'm sorry for running away from you like that." It was real cute, the way she apologized. She touched my arm, which always seems like a good sign.
We talked for a few more minutes. I was being pulled in 15 directions, and got taken away again. I assumed I'd get another chance to talk to her, but it didn't happen.
I dig this girl. She was talkative and thoughtful. She's tall and very pretty.
Today I stopped at my SIL's parents' house. SIL and her mother were all excited about Annie and me getting together. SIL said, "I'm going to make sure you go out with her." Said, "As soon as your divorce is done I'm making it happen."
but then, I was in the continent all weekend... There WAS a lot of water there, not quite Lake Superior, but nearly. But that was over 10,000 years ago. Ah, how the memories fade! ...
I wanted 2 quote one of my sailing songs. SS will remember, because he's almost as old as me. GC probably never heard of it.
"A Salty Dog" - Procol Harum
"'All hands on deck, we've run afloat!' I heard the captain cry 'Explore the ship, replace the cook: let no one leave alive!' Across the straits, around the Horn: how far can sailors fly? A twisted path, our tortured course, and no one left alive
We sailed for parts unknown to man, where ships come home to die No lofty peak, nor fortress bold, could match our captain's eye Upon the seventh seasick day we made our port of call A sand so white, and sea so blue, no mortal place at all
We fired the gun, and burnt the mast, and rowed from ship to shore The captain cried, we sailors wept: our tears were tears of joy Now many moons and many Junes have passed since we made land A salty dog, this seaman's log: your witness my own hand."
And for Weaver (though is' not about a lake, it is about an island) "The islands and bays are for sportsmen" (and women, 2!), but that's not the song:
"Back to the Island" - Leon Russell
"Now the day is gone and I sit alone and think of you, girl What can I do without you in my life? I guess that our guessing game just had to end that way The hardest one to lose of all the games we played
But the time is past for living in a dream world Lying to myself can't make that scene Of wondering if you love me or just making a fool of me Well I hope you understand I just had to go back to the island
Chorus:
And watch the sun go down (sit and watch the sun go down) Hear the sea roll in (listen to the sea roll in) But I'll be thinking of you (yes, and I'll be thinking of you) And how it might have been (thinking how it might have been) Hear the night birds cry (listen to the night birds cry) Watch the sunset die (sit and watch the sunset die) Well I hope you understand I just had to go back to the island
Well all the fun has died, It's raining in my heart I know down in my soul I'm really gonna miss you But it had to end this way with all the games we played Well I hope you understand I just had to go back to the island
Repeat Chorus"
and least, but not last, for me. This one's about water 2. Ony it's been dried up a long time. You see? I like my oceans and big lakes just fine, just like them dried up so I can see their shorelines along the mountain fronts...
"Lament for a Red Planet" - Jonathan Eberhart
"Ten thousand times a hundred thousand dusty years ago, Where now extends the Plain of Gold did once my river flow. It stroked the stones and spoke in tongues and splashed against my face Till ages rolled - the Sun shone cold on this unholy place.
So many stars bedeck my skies, when once there were but few, But oh, to know again the clouds that hid them from my view. My ochred cliffs and rusted sands stand regal and serene, But oh, my wan and wasted world, I miss your blue and green.
But it's just the weight of waiting, not a deathwatch o'er a friend. Tomorrow has a starting as does yesterday an end. For the water of my river and the air that was my wind, Though bound in rocks and wintry wastes, I pray may flow again."
SS: Boy, the snow on the mountains out there this weekend was 2 beautiful! And the weather! We got poured on Friday, but Sat and Sun were just wonderful. A shame 2 have 2 come home! Hope 2 see you sometime in June.
Gray, how cool is that? Woo-hoo! You chick-magnet, you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm assuming she knows, or will know, about your sitch, and will understand why you just can't leap up and immediately begin squiring her about, as it seems the interest is recipricated. Do you have long to wait before your divorce becomes final? (Please forgive me if this was brought up in an earlier post -- we've surpassed 50 pages in this thread and I sometimes accidentally overlook a post, though I try hard not to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ).
Your family (IL & otherwise) can make it clear to her that it is your integrity and personal principles that is keeping you from persuing her at this time, so your honor can remain intact. And she should admire and respect that. What woman wouldn't?
2long, shame on you! You're not the old fart you make yourself out to be! Those were some great additions to our sailing log. You say you are a Mountain Boy, but there is such familiarity with the ocean, the way it breathes, speaks to you. . . do you usually live near it when not in the mtns? Or are do you just possess the soul of a poet?
I have to say, I've never been near the Rockies. . . but I do love & miss the Appalachians. So soft and gentle and comfortable and smooth, with those wonderful, icy springs and laughing little creeks. THAT I do miss. Fishing, creeking, and the wonderful weather! Lo, the furnaces of Hell in Texas!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
And those furnaces sure are cranking up today! Where's my A/C? LOL
Oh yes I am old! 2rned 52 in March, followed shortly by my D's wedding. 52's way over half dead, 2! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Well, I'm not 2uite a mountain boy. More of a desert fool. I love being able 2 see the ground as far as 50 or 60 miles in every direction. Nevada and western Utah are my favorite stomping grounds - the former home of some massive Pleistocene lakes (mainly Bonneville and Lahontan).
I was born and raised (such that I can be considered "raised" at this point!) in Los Angeles, and I currently live just about 4 miles in a straight line from where I was born.
But I spent most of my vacations in the deserts of CA, AZ, NV, and UT. Used 2 backpack the Grand Canyon (aka Golly Gully) every spring, until my kids started growing but didn't take an interest.
I'm still grieving my loss, but I don't want anything to do with my wife. I guess I'm done.
That is HUGE! We knew you were getting there. Do you feel you have healed enough to start a new R? Good to feel desirable though doesn't it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Ah, Pleistocene lakes, home of the great glacials! Are you a geolgical historian by profession or hobby? Or. . . wait, is it Paleo- something or another? It sounds like your passion, whichever it is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Isn't it extraordinary to find the simplest beauty and peace in our most primitive of surroundings?
FF, I don't know. I may have healed enough. Gotta admit though, it's funny that I spoke those words and only a few hours later spotted somebody I felt compelled to approach.
During the wedding, I felt serene, and happy for my brother. There was some sorrow, but my heart has grown calm. There isn't any struggle going on in there.
I just think it's good thatyou spoke those words BEFORE you spotted somebody you felt compelled 2 approach, not the other way around - because, then, you'd know 2 suspect your own motives.
SLH:
I'm a geologist by profession. It is fun, 2! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Gray, won't some small part of you always grieve for her, even in the smallest sense of the word? For what might have been? That doesn't mean that you can't find peace within yourself, that letting go of the struggle means failure, or that you have to let go of every last memory of her. Don't ever mourn for that, for the letting go. When it comes down to it, your battle was one of integrity and candor, forthrightness and rightousness. Integrity has no need of rules, and you followed you heart and your code of honor with your goodness & virtue intact the entire way.
Grieve some, if you will, but rest in peace knowing that you gave your all to the fight, regardless of the end.
And try to fully embrace all that your new life has to offer you, as you deserve it.
Isn't it extraordinary to find the simplest beauty and peace in our most primitive of surroundings?
Sometimes it's the only place one CAN find inner tranquility! The storms on Lake Superior can be pretty cool sometimes.
My ex-fiance (but good friend now) tells me he only feels really happy during a really good thunderstorm or snowstorm, sunshine depresses him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Gray - I didn't grab your last post for a quote, but it makes me so happy that you are finally getting to a good place. You are such a down to earth, sincere and honest guy, and as you know one of the posters that I worried so much about. You do remind me of my younger brother who is a really, really great guy. I am so glad for you to be coming to a place of inner peace!
Sail on 2long, sail on oh you with the soul of a poet! ( I think SLH is buttering you up for something <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
And SS, he's got the soul of an old hippy,... or maybe he is an old hippy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I think SLH is buttering you up for something. . .
Do I sound preposterous sometimes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL. I'm sorry, guess sometimes it's too many long days with too little outside contact, I start to wax poetic and become tiresome. . . Ah, the glamorous life of a Housewife!
2long, do you get to share your work with your wife? How does she feel about it? Do you have similar passions?
Hey, Weave, don't you garner some great perspective from a good summer storm? Electric ambiance, some wine, mood music, rumbling thunder, occasional shimmers of lightning, muted drumming of the rain on the roof, screen door open (or better yet, just sitting outside if covered), and deep thoughts. Renewing my aquintance with my Muse, sometimes. Not that I don't appreciate the sun, but a good storm is so hard to come by. Especially the still, breathless moments before the storm, pregnant with hot tension.
I'd love to witness a Lake Superior storm. I only know what I see on the History Channel, Discovery, etc. I'll bet they're spectacular to behold!
Hey, Weave, don't you garner some great perspective from a good summer storm? Electric ambiance, some wine, mood music, rumbling thunder, occasional shimmers of lightning, muted drumming of the rain on the roof, screen door open (or better yet, just sitting outside if covered), and deep thoughts. Renewing my aquintance with my Muse, sometimes. Not that I don't appreciate the sun, but a good storm is so hard to come by. Especially the still, breathless moments before the storm, pregnant with hot tension.
Yes, but I don't have the way with words you do! My words are nice, cool, great and yucky! LOL
If you knew all the strange things I do on my island you would laugh, but I can't tell you here! "Reconnecting with your muse" reminded me of some of those things.
Okay I'll tell you one thing I did last summer. And it's not that I'm not Christian, cuz I am. And it's not that I make light of Wicca, cuz I don't.
But last 4th of July I found out my ex had a woman over on this Lake Superior island we own property on together, and the violation I felt was more than words can describe. I went into NC with him then.
Anyway, I needed to protect "my island" from his "friends" so I took several of the books my sister gave me on Wicca and went over there to spend some alone time. I did this spell after a few days of reading those books, I made the fire on the beach, offered herbs, did the cants and then because I needed to talk to God about it I wrote a long letter to Him. Then came back to the mainland.
Well a few weeks later I got a voice mail from my ex saying that he had spent a few days on the island but had to leave because my spirit (presence) was so strong, it was creeping him out. He said he kept getting "senses" of me in the cedars and couldn't shake it. LOL
And now I know he will never bring anyone over their again. I really spooked him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Freaky, heh?
Well everyone probably thinks I'm nuts now. I swear I scared myself doing that stuff. By the way the island is an island which was always inhabited by Native Americans. There is even an old indian burial ground on the island. So I can freak myself out pretty good when I am there alone!
Take care SLH. I really am enjoying reading your posts, BTW!
I put a spell on you Because you're mine. You better stop The things that you're doin'. I said "Watch out! I ain't lyin', yeah! I ain't gonna take none of your Foolin' around; I ain't gonna take none of your Puttin' me down; I put a spell on you Because you're mine. All right! (repeat 1x)
Yes I am keeping it. And as soon as the road is more navigable and I get some kind of electricity I am going to have big party! MB style.
And I already told you Gray, you and whoever you want to bring with you can stay there anytime you like. You must camp though, and let me know in advance so I can make sure my ex won't be there. He won't mind though, he is a fan of MB and he is very generous and sociable!
I'll email you the name of the island so you can check it out on the map, and have an idea of the distance we're talking.
Maybe you can even bring Annie, or whoever you want really. I mean after you get D. Sorry Gray, I don't really know what to say about it now. Don't want to be disrespectful of you marriage. But I just can't help it, I am happy you can still feel good about someone!
Well let's not get ahead of ourselves, Weaver. I don't mean w/r/t the divorce. I mean I shouldn't assume anything will come of the Annie business. Maybe I read her wrong.
Sure is cool to think about though, after a year alone.
No disrespect taken, by the way. I have the right to talk about my future without the sparrow. I'm giving my M its due respect, but it's over.
Oh, Gray; whether it works out ot not -- isn't it invigorating to feel again? And have someone intrigued by you? No matter what the outcome, you are right -- it's a major step, just that act of emotional sensitivity again, the vulnerability. It's refreshing and terrifiying, but oh, so alive.
Are you saying what I think you are saying, Weave?
"Party at Weaver's Place!" And on an island to boot! MB-style! Good friends, good music, good wine, and good times, LOL.
The Indian burial ground sounds so intriguing!! Manna for a wanna-be archaeologist's heart! Have you ever found any relics?
No, really, I've often wondered if we should have an MB social get-together of sorts, like an "MB cruise" with Harley as a speaker, etc. I'd save up for a year or more for something like that.
Well you wouldn't have to save up too much for this island SLH, it's very rustic. No running water, no electricity, lots of mosquito's, big cats that chase foxes...you get the picture. Actually there is water and electricity on the island, just not to our place.
And the burial ground is sacred...definately NO digging!
Well you wouldn't have to save up too much for this island SLM, it's very rustic
I meant my flight from TX to Yankee territory, LOL! I don't mind roughing it, I love to camp & fish; wish H did, too. *sigh*
Quote
And the burial ground is sacred...definately NO digging!
I figured, but sometimes you can find the most amazing things revealed by the passage of time, simply by careful observation. No matter either way, it just seems neat, you know?
Ha, I have been saying that for years, and then I make a mess of things. You actually started, and did well, so I don't know if I believe you anymore.
The classic "Sail On" I was talking about... the Bad Brains tune.
You were right, I know less than you. Who are the Bad Brains? You know, I probably don't need to know that, never mind.
I'll be going to an event this weekend, but I won't talk about it here.
I understand why, but I don't understand why - if you catch my drift.
SLH, I'm gaga for the ocean. Stupid, living in the middle of the continent. But you know, Weaver's lake is a beautiful, mysterious, really extraordinary place. I'm with you... mountains are nice, but the ocean is the ocean.
I can do an ocean poem for people that love the sea too - let me know.
SLH, like weaver - and you may have assumed this - I'm curious about you.
Yeah, inquiring minds want to know. You only told us a little bit. We need more details, or, a note from your second grade teacher telling us you are OK.
SS, funny. That poem has the same meter as the Bad Brains tune. Maybe the Bad Brains ripped it off, though theirs is about a breakup.
I think the bible says in one place "there is nothing new under the sun."
I think Love is new for the ones involved though. I hope you can tell us about that when it's time.
You said, "I think you will find the shore you are looking for." SS, you know what? I will. I know it. It's still vague though, where I'm headed.
You are a good captain, I am sure you will find it. Sail into the sunset, but wear your sunglasses, I don't want you going blind on us.
Love you guys. You know what? The feeling is mutual. You are lovable, do you know that?
Page 2
I met a girl........................
We talked for a few more minutes. I was being pulled in 15 directions, and got taken away again. I assumed I'd get another chance to talk to her, but it didn't happen.
I dig this girl. She was talkative and thoughtful. She's tall and very pretty.
This is not advice. It's........it's ........hmmm. It's just a review. Remember that romantic relationships are kind of risky by nature. Dating is something we do to find out about other people. It's a time to practice and experiment. It's a place for people to look for a mate, find a partner.
It's not a place to seek healing. It's low commitment, and high risk. If you are not healed when you begin, and you trust your feelings to someone but it doesn't work out, you will be worse off than had you waited.
You know all this stuff, and I think you are more ready than most, but let Weaver interview all the girls you go with first, and give them a passing grade before you date them.
Ah shucks, I think you'll do find, JUST BE CAREFUL........OK?
2long, I think I heard "A Salty Dog" but I can't remember for sure. What does that mean?
FF, I don't know. I may have healed enough. Gotta admit though, it's funny that I spoke those words and only a few hours later spotted somebody I felt compelled to approach.
During the wedding, I felt serene, and happy for my brother. There was some sorrow, but my heart has grown calm. There isn't any struggle going on in there.
Perhaps you have found the shore. Now, from the shore, do you get the feeling that there is a whole new continent waiting for you to explore?
From Weaver: And SS, he's got the soul of an old hippy,... or maybe he is an old hippy!
From SLH: And SS -- what would you call yourself, lol?
I feel LATE mostly - I can't believe I missed all this stuff.
SS thinks for a while.
Probably not a hippie. I never had the looks for it. Hmmmm..............
I never thought about it much, I'm just SS. Maybe 2long could tell you, I had lunch with him once.
SLH said: No, really, I've often wondered if we should have an MB social get-together of sorts, like an "MB cruise" with Harley as a speaker, etc. I'd save up for a year or more for something like that.
This has been talked about a number of times, but never been done on a large scale - to my knowledge. I think it would be fun too - I think Graycloud would play, if you would sing????
Weaver, the island sounds like my kind of place. I love the outdoors, especially the places where It's quiet enough to think.
"2long, do you get to share your work with your wife?"
2 some extent where we overlap.
"How does she feel about it? Do you have similar passions?"
Similar, not the same. She's an archaeologist (and NO, she would not approve of digging holes in that island! Not without a certification from the state and research design and recordation and curation plan!).
She owns property in SS' state that's got a site on it. Thankfully, it's also a part of the country where I do a lot of my geological field work (Lake Bonneville basin).
Unfor2nately, RM is also an archaeologist, but in another state. They went 2 grad school 2gether. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> She got her MS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, he never finished his PhD <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. He's got 2 kids and is now DV'd because of the A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. We've got 2 kids and are NOT DV'd because of the A! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Regarding the beautiful and mysterious Annie, I'm thinking about her lots, but I'm sure I'll mellow out after a few days. Just remember, I've been alone for a year. I won't volunteer to be alone for another.
Wanna hear something else? My oldest brother (not the one who got married) told me today that this past weekend had a surprising side effect on him. He said that he's been feeling a tremendous amount of anger toward my wife during the last year, and he felt there was something very healing about seeing our brother married and seeing old friends and family. He said it sort of blew his mind.
As I've said already, I had a similar experience. I felt almost weightless during the weekend, from the moment I pulled away from my house.
My brother's best man gave me the coolest bumper sticker of all time. It says, "I'm not ***king stupid but I used to".
Am (sisterly) loving you and wishing you the very, very best.
2Long, am drinking nice, amber ales out of frosty glasses right now. Toasting you and all the "oldtimers with young hearts" and drinking deeply. Salut.
Weaver - can't remember if I told you - UNPACKED ALL OF THE FIREFOX books....my old friends...my loving memories of my dad....how happy is that??
Schmatlzyness over. Going to read Magic Kingdom for Sale, Sold! just because I haven't in 3 years and it's great mind candy.
Miss you all! Sorry to TJ, GC, but I know that your kind heart will forgive.
Weightless. I can't think of a more adept description. Are you still, Gray? Or have you come down?
SS wrote: I can do an ocean poem for people that love the sea too - let me know.
If it's okay with Gray, I'd love to hear it -- or should we just open a new thread? I am still picking up on the nuances of thread courtesy here in the forum.
SS wrote: Yeah, inquiring minds want to know. You only told us a little bit. We need more details, or, a note from your second grade teacher telling us you are OK.
I think I'm okay. . . but you never know, I could be some kooky, teddy-bear sleeping, ADD, anal-retentive, multi-personality freak who's searching for some sort of validation from my on-line friends. Okay, sometimes I do snuggle with my old teddy bear, Lancelot, but it's only when my daughter has left him in our bed, and when Tiger is grouchy and LBing & DJing. (okay, how's THAT for a confession?! Talk about TMI!)
From SLH: And SS -- what would you call yourself, lol? SS, reply: Probably not a hippie. I never had the looks for it. . .Maybe 2long could tell you, I had lunch with him once
2long? What say you?
(SLH) No, really, I've often wondered if we should have an MB social get-together of sorts, like an "MB cruise" with Harley as a speaker, etc. . . (SS) This has been talked about a number of times. . . I think it would be fun too - I think Graycloud would play, if you would sing????
Hey, I'm actually not too bad a singer. So don't even go there, unless you mean it. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL
2long, I think it's really incredible that you get to share your work with your wife. I envy you that. Tiger used to work for NASA (he actually had flight hardware on Columbia) and I would delight in our conversations on his design work, etc. He's been working so many hours, lately, we haven't had a chance for those kinds of conversations. But they are so important, I think.
"Beautiful and mysterious. . . " GC says, of Annie.
*Sigh*
Dontcha just wish your S would say something like that about you? *I* sure do!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
He's 2young 2 be a coot. Working on curmudgeon, perhaps. But a benevolent curmudgeon, if one at all.
Now JL's just about old enough 2 be a coot. Still, it will take him a few more years.
...someone said I should have an AARP card by now. I didn't think so, until they said I could get discounts on restaurants and movies and stuff... ...where do I apply?
Kimmy, thanks for stopping in! SLH, you've got another Texan there.
SLH, courtesy schmurtesy. Jack away. I reckon this thread will fade when my divorce is final. So I'm holding my breath for the next bits of poetry from 2long and SS.
The sticker has been given a prominent spot on my guitar case, by the way.
And I have a gig next week. My first in a while.
What the hell happened to me? It was not gradual, this change. It was an event.
I have been thinking about you and your situation.
I am not a poet, but I like to play around the edges occasionally. I wrote this thinking about and your wife. It's bad, but I hope you enjoy it anyway :-)
What has she done ----------------------------
The words was spoke, flowers in the air, now my wife, she don't seem to care.
The wedding vow breaks, and my wife is a squirming like snakes.
And everyone is telling me, them's the breaks.
And somewhere it smarts, where the truth has stuck in 'em like darts.
And one day, they figures it out, when life come crashin in their laps.
And life ain't no fun when your livin it with just one.
Just as a trolly goes, all the hills that life throws.
All them words don't mean a thing, 'cept when she looks at her ring.
Her life ain't so good no more, since to her I have closed the door.
Wow Gimble, that was quite the poem! It made me chuckle this morning, because it pretty much hit what Gray has been through on the nose! I can see him really relating to it. At least from where I'm sitting.
Kimmy, I really miss you around here. But I am so glad that your family is together and in a good place again. And yeah getting out those old Foxfire books would be an act of happiness, you being who you are!
Gray it isn't so much that Annie is or isn't the one, it's that your heart is opening again. Just that you have those feelings says that you are healing.
And what you said about your brothers feelings at the wedding, feeling weightless...
I can imagine the weight being lifted for all your family and friends now that you are healing. It just shows how connected we really all are and that everyone bleeds when one does.
When your divorce is final, and your thread fades away as you said it probably will, I am so glad to have been part of it, to have travelled this journey with you. As painful as it has been, and will somewhat still be at times for you I am very thankful that you didn't have to go it alone. Well you still had to go it alone to a certain extent.
Oh well I'm losing my point so I'll close. Just feels good to read "happy" on your thread now!
What the hell happened to me? It was not gradual, this change. It was an event.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think you just got to the end of the song, that's all!
Sting - I'm So Happy
Seven weeks have passed now since she left me She shows her face to ask me how I am She says the kids are fine and that they miss me Maybe I could come and baby-sit sometime She says, "Are you O.K.? I was worried about you Can you forgive me? I hope that you'll be happy." I'm so happy that I can't stop crying I'm so happy I'm laughing through my tears
I saw a friend of mine He said, "I was worried about you I heard she had another man, I wondered how you felt about it?" I'm so happy that I can't stop crying I'm so happy I'm laughing though my tears Saw my lawyer, Mr Good News He got me joint custody and legal separation I'm so happy that I can't stop crying I'm laughing through my tears I'm laughing through my tears
I took a walk alone last night I looked up at the stars To try and find an answer in my life I chose a star for me I chose a star for him I chose two stars for my kids and one star for my wife Something made me smile Something seemed to ease the pain Something about the universe and how it's all connected
The park is full of Sunday fathers and melted ice cream We try to do the best within the given time A kid should be with his mother Everybody knows that What can a father do but baby-sit sometimes? I saw that friend of mine, he said, "You look different somehow" I said, "Everybody's got to leave the darkness sometime" I'm so happy that I can't stop crying I'm laughing through my tears I'm laughing through my tears I'm so happy that I can't stop crying I'm laughing through my tears I'm laughing through my tears
Hey, Gimble, you sure you're no Texan? Those could be country/western lyrics, fer darn sure! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Good ones.
Kimmy, Weaver, what are these Firefox books? I'm intrigued. All reading recommendations welcome, lol! (PS, Kimmy, we're here in Hou-Tex if you ever get down here!)
(Weaver wrote) I think you just got to the end of the song, that's all!
Weaver, how perceptive, and how sagely put! That mournful, tragic old heartbroken song is over, and GC is on to new and better things. With or without the Sparrow, or Annie, or any woman, he is whole again. He's just on his way to another song, a lovely, silvery, dulcet melody. And I for one cannot wait to hear about it!
Boy, I wish I could remember who posted that song 2 one of my threads a year or so ago... Maybe it was you?
Speaking of that "perspective", I think I really finally have arrived there. But I think our marriage is going 2 survive, unlike the scenario in Sting's song. Still, it might not. My W is only just starting 2 slowly show signs of personal recovery. She's still cynical about many things, just less so.
But the fundamental difference now is that I could probably even "hand her over" 2 RM if that were her choice. I'd be happy for her if it were what she really needed. I'd also be happy for me, because I've gotten back what I've always needed through this - my compassion. I think I started out with it, 4 or 5 decades ago, but I lost track of it because I THOUGHT I eschewed it in my daily interactions with folks, but I must not have been as successful as I had thought.
And then, for most of 3 years, I burned so many calories trying 2 FORCE compassion, not just from myself but from others back at me (not consciously, of course, that'd be nuts) that I couldn't have succeeded - I kept getting in my own way.
You're right, GC. It isn't a gradual change, it's a wave crashing over you. CSue might have been the first 2 tell me that, in different words, over 2 years ago. And for the most part, at the time I believed I understood. But even then I knew something was still missing from the equation. Now, it's not missing anymore.
Graycloud said: SS, it was fun watching you try to catch up.
It gets worse, I have only been away a day, and I don't know how I could possibly catch up with this batch of stuff.
Sigh.........
I guess I won't, I'll just comment on a few posts only.
Gray, If I meet up with you again, I'm going to have you tell me more about you, and your brothers.
Kimmy, it's good to see you come round again.
SLH said: I think I'm okay. . . but you never know, I could be some kooky, teddy-bear sleeping, ADD, anal-retentive, multi-personality freak who's searching for some sort of validation from my on-line friends.
Sounds like you have me pegged pretty good.
Of course you knew I was just teasing? Your teacher said you were pretty good MOST of the time.
Hey, I'm actually not too bad a singer. So don't even go there, unless you mean it. . . LOL
Gray is in a band, when can the two of you get together and practice? Texas isn't that far from MN, is it? I mean, if Texas is as big as some Texans say, it must touch Canada at some point.
2Long said: SS a hippie?
Nah!
Poet and philosopher, yes.
I couldn't describe 2long in a word either - too much depth to put a label on. He is a romantic, but there's a lot more there than just that. I don't know how much I should say, since he is bigger than me - and I hope to see him again in a month or so. Lets just say that 2long is very kind, and very smart, and cares about people.
Now, I had lunch with Graycloud once, and I could tell you he is: 1. Good looking. 2. Thoughtful 3. Smart 4. Thin 5. Loyal 6. Modest
Beyond that, I can't say much good about him at all.
Weaver said: Oh well I'm losing my point so I'll close. Just feels good to read "happy" on your thread now!
You weren't losing your point - we know you were happy for GC, and were telling him so. I thought you did a good job. It is good to see happy, isn't it. I hope to see it on a thread of yours soon.
I want to ask you some questions, but feel to leave you alone right now. Not sure why. The questions I won't be asking now include: Who? How did you meet? And comments about how I have an idea what the decision is, but wondering why you don't want to talk about it now. As I say, I won't be asking you now, but it's on my mind.
Let's see, where is that other poem about the sea?
"Sea-Fever"
I must down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky, And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by, And the wheel's kick and the wind's song and the white sail's shaking, And a grey mist on the sea's face, and a grey dawn breaking.
I must down to the seas again, for the call of the running tide Is a wild call and a clear call that may not be denied; And all I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying, And the flung spray and the blown spume, and the sea-gulls crying.
I must down to the seas again, to the vagrant gypsy life, To the gull's way and the whale's way where the wind's like a whetted knife; And all I ask is a merry yarn from a laughing fellow-rover And quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick's over.
By John Masefield (1878-1967).
I don't know the sea, but am a child of the desert. He says it well, and I think I see similarities. All the best,
Kimmy probably won't be back for awhile so I will answer your question about the Foxfire books. They are great! Kimmy told me I should read them when she found out I was interested in folklore, folk healing, folk majik, cooking, etc.
The Foxfire books were started at a highschool in SE NC I believe by a teacher who wanted the students to become enthusiastic about life. This was in the 70's when drugs and sex were rampant. The series actually started out as a magazine. The students went into the hills to interview the hill people and to record their history which was at the risk of becoming extinct. Well it blossomed into books because there was just so much to record.
They lived almost entirely off the land, with all their crafts and skills being handed down through the generations.
They are great books and I got mine used off of ebay. And Kimmy is an incredibly interesting girl with a heart as big as can be!
2long -
Yes, that was me who posted that song for you. It was after a particularly painful thread of yours. And I didn't think you would end in divorce, but what I "hear" in that song is the healing that happens at the end. Divorced or not.
And that is so interesting that what you have gotten out of the last three years of your ordeal is compassion. So that was the lesson you were to learn! I have no doubt in my mind that your wife will get to a place where you see her (her potential and goodness) with you as her husband. You are just that way. And your family is so lucky to have you, as you are them. You know we once talked of the legacy thing (don't know if you remember) and I said the legacy my mom and dad left behind for us children, grandchildren, g-grandchildren is something that could never be replaced, for generations after their deaths. If they had left a legacy of divorce, then the family would have been broken, and who knows how many generations it would have taken to mend that break. You know the whole "sins of the father" thing.
SS -
For my update:
I'm thinking of going back with my ex. He has been a changed man this year. Coming into town and staying at motels, working on my rentals, helping me in anyway he can. And never once asking for anything in return. He is trying to pay back, not only to me and my DD what he took/broke but also to others. He has pretty much devoted this year to helping others it seems. I am learning to respect and admire him, for the first time since I found out he lied to me originally.
Well I'm not even going back into the past to recount our nightmarish story, but I feel like both of us are going to be okay. I am at a place where like 2long, I think I have learned compassion, acceptance and unconditional love. Regardless of whether we end up together in the end, or not.
He has done so much work on my house and one of my rentals (he even volenteered to paint the rental which will take a good week of his summer vacation), so I said I would take him to Cancun with Paige and I, on my dime. (two room suite so it'll be cool, I can stay with Paige in one and he can stay in the other)
Anyway SS he has been married three times with four kids and has finally realized that the buck stops with him. He has always been very good to his kids and to Paige but he was a philanderer I think, and definately a liar and a cheat.
It's been a year since we have been together, and his grown two daughters tells me he has not been with a woman since last July. So I really do think he has had some kind of enlightenment.
Yup, that is what I read between the lines. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Weaver, whatever the outcome I wish you all the happiness in the world. Sorry for the t/j Gray.
Ah, legacy! Remember these lyrics from Peter Gabriel's "Make Tomorrow"?
"What better measure of what you were doing here Than what you can leave behind All of the children of your children's children Do you ever think what they're going to find?
Make tomorrow Make tomorrow Where the sacred meet the scared! Make tomorrow Make tomorrow Where the dreamer's dream is dared!
In each of us A dream can burn like the sun Let's try it all one more time To get this lesson learned"
It's on the OVO album, and was mostly sung by someone else, so it's not on many of the websites with Gabriel lyrics, I find.
I haven't ignored what you said about your ex. I've been thinking about it a lot. I was just talking 2 SS about how I've been hoping for so many years now that my W would see why I do the things I do for her and take the time 2 do them. It's partially in compensation for the things I may not have done that I should have, but it's also a demonstration, through action, of who I want her 2 see that I am. I think she's starting 2 notice in a meaningful way. And at the same time, over the past 3 years I've gotten better at not expecting anything in re2rn from her.
I just want her 2 be as much as she can be, and if I can be a part of that and she wants me 2, then great. But even if I can't, it won't ever have been wasted effort.
There may or may not be an afterlife. But I learned firsthand, when my mom passed away 9 years ago, that immortality, in the form of our legacies and how we're remembered by our loved ones, is a reality.
I got it 2long, done by Gabriel too...on Bear Share!
I am listening to it now, it's a very good song. He's got a female singer accompaning him.
2long, I have the utmost respect for His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and while it doesn't appear that he believes in God as I perceive God to be, he is in my opinion one of the greatest men in the world.
That other thread is so upsetting because of the apparant lack of tolerance for other beliefs and religions. It makes me so sad.
I feel such an affinity for Csue, as I know you do, because I know she would understand my feelings.
Hm... I'll have 2 look that up! I've been using iTunes for my downloads. For a gizmologist, I've got a lot of evolving 2 do in that area!
I learned a lot of what little I know about the Dalai Lama from Spacecase's posts 2 the resources page on iloveulove.com. I share your respect for the man.
I'm sorry the other thread upsets you. You know, though? I *feel* a peculiar affinity with MM that even comes through the debate-related posts there.
I'm glad CSue is back! Life must be good, though, because she's been gone a while! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I want to hear about that "other" thread you're talking about, Weaver. I seem to be missing it, and I'm awful curious.
I'm not a very good MB participant right now. I'm a little too impatient with WS. I project my own feelings and my own experience onto situations a little too much.
But I know that as a BS, it is worthwhile to believe in your partner and try to help them. And that you have to go through this all the way to come out clean on the other end.
By the way, things are not going very well for car4love. I don't know what I can do for her. She told me, "GC, after this I'm going to be so strong. I'll be able to handle anything."
She told me today that sparrow and the tin man are planning to get married and buy a house in my neighborhood as soon as their divorces are final. That hit me pretty good, got that hot feeling behind my ears. But it wasn't like it used to be. It hurt, a lot, but it wasn't the crippling feeling I've grown used to. I wish they wouldn't intrude on my life. I wish they would go away and stop hurting car4love.
Weaver, you should feel free to talk about your decision here.
Goodness, we are a talkative bunch lately. Seems "Gray's" is the place to be!
Hey Weave, I knew I felt some major XH vibes coming off of you!! Since Gray's so graciously granted you permission, will you post accordingly, as you are comfortable? It's nice to see you "happy" too, you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SS, 2long, Weave, I hope I never have need of your "counseling" services. . . but if I do, I know I will be receiving some of the best advice from some of the kindest, most compassionate, generous, folk out there. You guys have been to hell and back and yet still don't shirk from sharing that gruelling ordeal with others so that they may benefit from it in some small way.
Gray, are there no other houses available in all of the upper midwest? :Raking hands thru hair in frusturated movements: Good grief, I am incensed to read that the Sparrow could be so cruel, and the OM, too. It's almost as if she is trying to re-create her life with you, but with him. There were other similarities, weren't there? This is just bizarre, and beyond boorish and tasteless. This is viscious, and malevolent.
(I've had to erase a bit here; it wasn't in keeping with our Higher Road philosophy. I've been grouchy this week!)
Maybe I should quit now and come back tomorrow. Moses is stepping on me, competing with the keyboard for attention . . . er, wait, Moses my cat. . . and I am finding myself in a position where compassion is something I am having a difficult time with tonight, in scenerios like Gray's. She knows , and yet behaves like this.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> How <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> could <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> she? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Weaver wrote: The Foxfire books were started at a highschool in SE NC I believe by a teacher who wanted the students to become enthusiastic about life . . The series actually started out as a magazine. The students went into the hills to interview the hill people and to record their history which was at the risk of becoming extinct. Well it blossomed into books because there was just so much to record . . .They lived almost entirely off the land, with all their crafts and skills being handed down through the generations
This is just too cool. I man, these very people managed to survive so many generations, untouched by progress or civilized advancement (for the most part) for centuries, and yet they thrived (well, not in contrast to the average paunchy, hamburger-eating American of today, but still). I'd love to find these books. Can you give me any other information on them -- publisher, publication date(s), an author(s) name, etc?
And Weave, you sorely undervalue your way with words. . . I think you describe things beautifully. In everything you write <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.
A friend and I went out to the neighborhood bistro. We sat at the bar. A pretty girl arrived, all alone, and I started talking to her.
I'm having dinner with her next week.
Now That's what I'm talking about! You ladies don't know how much impact a smile has on us men. Look around a little GC. They're all around you. Now, like dad used to say.... play the field a little bit.
What day is the date? We will all need a report ASAP after the date. Heck, I will even stay up late to read it, well, I am always up late, but I still want to read it :-)
This is not advice. It's........it's ........hmmm. It's just a review. Remember that romantic relationships are kind of risky by nature. Dating is something we do to find out about other people. It's a time to practice and experiment. It's a place for people to look for a mate, find a partner.
It's not a place to seek healing. It's low commitment, and high risk. If you are not healed when you begin, and you trust your feelings to someone but it doesn't work out, you will be worse off than had you waited.
You know all this stuff, and I think you are more ready than most, but let Weaver interview all the girls you go with first, and give them a passing grade before you date them.
Ah shucks, I think you'll do find, JUST BE CAREFUL........OK?
Still seeking, I wish you were my DD's grandpa. You're so wise that it amazes me some days. Yes, I know, you're not wise at all. Please let me say that that just adds to your wisdom. I like you a whole heckuva lot.
Was your gig this weekend? How did it go? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
How's everyone else? Weaver? Where the heck are you, girl? 2Long? SS? FF? Been missing you all. (Golly it's amazing how engrossed and concerned we can become about ppl we've never met <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.)
Thanks for asking about me. I have been around but limiting my time on the forum, and that other thread has kept me occupied. Drudging up some old feelings and neglected faith.
Thanks, ladies. I have some preparing to do... but I'll be fine. Probably.
Know what I'm most worried about? That seeing her will yank me back to a different place than where I am now. That my love for her and my sorrow over what she's done to us will knock the wind out of me.
As you know, I've been feeling good, for the first time, really, in a year. I've declared myself done. I got into my car ten days ago to leave for my brother's wedding, and I felt my whole perspective shift. You could have heard the thud. I no longer see the things she's done in the last year as the wanderings of a confused person I love and want to help. I see them now as a personal attack on me and several other people, including a brand new person, done by someone who was fully aware of the suffering she was creating, and who did it anyway.
I don't hate her or resent her for it. I have to accept her for what she is, which is someone who can do all this. I feel terribly sad for her. She's responsible for a landslide of suffering. I would not want that burden. Even rationalizing it would take so much energy.
I miss the person I knew for 11 years.
I remember when we were first together, she used to say that after many years of uncertainty, she felt like herself again. Like she'd regained the spirit she'd had as a child. I don't take credit for this. I was just there at the time.
Well, she's gone again. It's as if her life has been a wave. In the good times, she's been kind and caring. In the bad, selfish and heartless. Up, down, up, down.
I think she might be able to spend her life not so badly burdened by what she's done. She'll marry the tin man, maybe have children with him, admire cool cars and use words like "antediluvian" with him, perhaps put all this business in a dusty corner of her mind and carry on more or less okay.
I can be a little much sometimes. One of my friends refers to this as "turning up the GC". I can get carried away. I can get too caught up in what I'm doing. I can be insensitive, especially if I'm trying to be witty. I'm horrible, just awful, at managing my time. I used to get very anxious and let my anxiety affect others (this part of me hasn't been seen in some time). I can be disagreeable, argumentative, and dismissive.
I was all these things to my wife at times. I was also loyal, affectionate, supportive, and lots of other good stuff.
Oh, well. I'm glad I don't have to deal with a spouse who remembers her AP with fondness and romance, wondering every time we disagree if the grass might be greener in the tinman's backyard.
She used to call me her "sweet angel boy" sometimes. Someday, maybe somebody else will dream up a nice name for me.
My middle name is Michael... that's the archangel who tossed the devil out of heaven. Cool.
I'll do fine. Check it out, I'm the midnight rambler.
Read your post just prior to turning in....it's a keeper. It's a good thing others can put into words feelings I can relate to so I can plagiarize their statements and quit breathing through my mouth long enough to blurt it out and sound reasonably intelligent.
I too feel the corner has been turned. My head is out of the rear view mirror and foot is off the brake. (ya see....without others to steal phrases from my prose would consist of one cliché after another)
I hope her presence does not knock you off your game. Just think...your life could be a lot worse...you could be her.
"I can be a little much sometimes. One of my friends refers to this as "turning up the GC". I can get carried away. I can get too caught up in what I'm doing. I can be insensitive, especially if I'm trying to be witty. I'm horrible, just awful, at managing my time. I used to get very anxious and let my anxiety affect others (this part of me hasn't been seen in some time). I can be disagreeable, argumentative, and dismissive."
Who DOESN'T this describe, at one time or another?
You'll do fine... ...and you will be VERY popular!
Reached a settlement. I don't like it, but who ever likes their divorce agreement? It's going to be an uphill battle to hang onto the house, but with some clever accounting, more belt-tightening, hard work, and good luck, I may be able to hold it together. At least the ref didn't make me sell it.
It was grueling. My lawyer said, "You guys are nickel-and-diming each other." I agreed with her. It's tough. Everybody feels the other person is trying to rip them off. The whole thing took two hours.
I'm tired. Now I know what people mean when they say they feel "numb". I walked away from court feeling neither happy nor sad. Just sorta wiped out.
Now, 1.5 hours later, I feel okay. There's still much in doubt w/r/t my house, and the sparrow has a niiiiiice fat check to look forward to, but I know what I have to do.
Wow, the hoops she's made me jump through. I can see why people flip out. My attny told me a few stories about people losing it in divorce court.
Well, all there's left to be done is some paper shuffling.
Well thank God you have a wonderful distraction ahead of you this evening. It just goes to show what a gent you are GC that sparrow was the one fighting for more and all you really wanted was to hold onto your house. Hugs and best wishes for tonight. Phew...glad that is behind you now. How long til it is final?
She's got a roof that don't leak, when the rain's pouring down She's got a place I can sleep. where I'm safe and sound She's got a lock on her door, but she gave me a key She don't walk the floor, but she worries about me
Chorus: Her love has no strings, shackles or chains But I'm holding on for dear life She's like rolling a seven, everytime I roll the dice
She's got a big Oldsmobile, she's got a dog that won't bite She's got a heart I can steal, just like a thief in the night She's got a slow burning fire, she keeps the radio low When she gets inspired, we let the good times roll
Chorus Break Chorus
Everytime I roll, everytime I roll, everytime I roll sing these 2 Everytime I roll the dice / lines 4 times
Have fun tonight Gray. I know the clouds might seep in now and then, but try not to let them get you down if they do.
Not that it's all that similar, but many years ago I had 2 clean out my garage. I had 2, or I couldn't get anything done in it - couldn't even use my workbench.
So, we sold my W's 1953 Singer SM1500 sportscar without restoring it and put a whole buttload of stuff out at the curb with a big "FREE" sign with it.
By dark, the stuff at the curb was gone (including the free sign!), and I had a whole cubic ton of room 2 work on the stuff I still had.
It "hurt" for maybe a day and a half, but as soon as I was first able 2 get something done without "excavating" a place 2 work, I felt lighter than air!
Your sitch, of course, is even cooler, though it's been a helluva lot longer and harder road 2 get 2 this point. Enjoy your date 2night!
Hey Gray, I need to borrow your thread for a minute to get some unbiased feedback. I know you won't be using it for awhile since you are going out, so I'll take the liberty as I don't want to start my own. Thanks in advance.
As all of you know on this thread my ex has been in my life quite alot lately, doing things for me and wanting to get back together. Atleast I thought.
Well he came into town this past weekend and helped me with lots of chores around here I couldn't do myself. Then we went over to the island to have a fire, listen to music and spread some sand around that had been dropped off for a beach we are making.
He then brought up me signing off the property , as he is about to have enough to buy me out for what I put into it (the downpayment). This shocked me and hurt me more than I can say. I just didn't understand why, if he wants to be with me, he would want to buy me out.
He said it is because "you just never know" and since he is about to invest quite a bit in a foundation, etc for a home he needs to be protected. He said in a couple of years if we get married, it will be yours again anyway. I then just let it drop.
Later in the evening (well it was about 2 am) we get ready to leave and he says he would like to stop at the bar. I said I would rather not. He knows how I feel about the bars. So he said well lets just stop and I will run in and get a beer to go. I said please just run in and I'll wait in the car.
Well 15 minutes later he still was in the bar and I was becomming very anxious. Then I just got mad, laid on the horn. He comes out and was livid. He says "It's only been 5 minutes, what is wrong with you?"
Well we drove to the ferry, first yelling, then in silence. After we got to my house he parked, I walked in and he took off. He didn't show back up until about 10 am, got some of his stuff which was here and said "Five minutes, and you go psycho. I can't take you anymore" Then he drove away, back to MN I presume and I have not heard from him since.
Doesn't this seem weird? Do you think all this time he has just been conning me so I will sign off on the damn property?
I am so confused and hurt, I just don't know what to think.
I called a friend who talked to him this weekend, and she said I think he loves you very much. He just wants everything to be separate. Why don't you just take the money, give him the property and see what happens?
Well if this has all been a con, I don't want him to still have our dream, which was the island and me have nothing except a broken heart. I want him to suffer too. I can't help it.
But if I was over-reacting, then I don't want to feel that way.
I am just so confused. I don't know which way to go with my emotions.
You know? I just called a really good MB friend (Spacecase) and we talked about *my* current position, what he did (that wasn't very MBish) and how it's 2rned out, and it really gelled in my mind what I need 2 do.
In the course of the convo it came down 2 finances. His sitch was different from mine, yours and gc's. And his choice should not be applied 2 others', so I won't mention it here (but he could if he wanted 2).
What I'm going 2 do is put the prospect of losing or gaining or my perceptions of hurting my loved ones aside and realize that my sanity has 2 come first before I can be of any help 2 any of my loved ones. *I* need 2 get a NC agreement with my W first - before I do anything else or think about anything else.
I've been stuck for a number of reasons, but not least of those is the worry over what happens 2 the house and our assets. Heck, it really is just a building.
I've been stuck for a number of reasons, but not least of those is the worry over what happens 2 the house and our assets. Heck, it really is just a building.
Maybe it really is just beach sand?
Maybe. But it feels more like a dream. And as you know dreams are hard to come by, and even harder to let go.
We're going to get there you know 2long. I refuse to let my legacy be the tragic... always destined to be the tragic figure.
Damn!
Depac Chopra says that love itself is a separate entity. One we have almost no control over. But as a separate entity, it comes and it goes. And when it goes, one will choose to be the "leaver" and one will choose to be "left".
I would like for once in my life to be the "leaver". I don't want to be left anymore.
"weaver the leaver"!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I've always felt "left", though I might prefer the term "port." ...but I like a good amber ale or a portER a lot better than port <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Maybe. But it feels more like a dream. And as you know dreams are hard to come by, and even harder to let go.
Ah, Weave. :: Big hug, sweetie :: I wish I had some insight into what is going on in his mind, a glimpse of his truest character. Unfortunately we have only his very contradictory actions to taunt us.
{Please correct me if I am wrong below; it's me rambling on Johnny Walker Black & Coke, but it's all I've got right now. . . the ramlings, not the drink, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />}
Hon, I know this island has been a dream for you. I, myself, would probably pitch some serious fits (and I am not the Fit Pitchin' type) in order to keep it, as it seems like your one tangible, absolution from the hackneyed mediocrity in which most of us live. It's more than a piece of property to you, it's your asylum, your release, your innate essence, your fire exit.
Am I wrong?
Do you want to keep it to spite him? To allow him to suffer for his misdeeds, current and past? To prohibit him from attaining something he desires, after all that he has witheld from you? Or is your motive for purer reasons, the craving for something special, intimate, achingly personal to you; not at all sensation-driven?
Do you want to keep it to spite him? To allow him to suffer for his misdeeds, current and past? To prohibit him from attaining something he desires, after all that he has witheld from you? Or is your motive for purer reasons, the craving for something special, intimate, achingly personal to you; not at all sensation-driven?
Yes. If his motives are impure, than yes. I can't help it.
I can see the island from my home. I can't leave because my DD's dad lives here. I don't want to look at the island knowing he is there, loving another on MY island. This is my town, he is not even from here.
Still,
I really like you. You are so pretty and your kids are just as cute as can be.
I am glad you are here.
Like I told 2long, we are all going to get through this.
Thank you SLH, for being here. I am having a bad time, but it will end.
I think maybe I'll just sign the whole thing over to him. Be done with it, but then I'll know that is all he wanted in the first place, and that will hurt.
Weaver, I don't blame you for questioning his motives I would too. He almost sounds like someone in an A from his behavior which is crazy huh? Not much advice, just MB hugs to you. {{{{weaver}}}}
Oh, Weave. You love that place whether or not he wants it, am I wrong? Give yourself some credit.
You've been provoked and are justfiabley furious; hell, I can't believe you handled yourself as well as you have. I tend to become a little more hostile when I feel ppl have behaved duplicitously with me for self-seeking reasons. I am not always nice.
This all happened a few days ago. . . what interactions have you all had since then? Any?
I know you are sick to your stomach over this, but what about a Plan? I don't think signing the isle over should be it. . .not yet, anyhow.
Thank you for the compliments on myself & my monkeys. . . but I've thought the same about you, you know. Those deep luminous eyes, harboring untold mystery; that easy, sweeping smile. . . I wish we didn't live on opposite sides of the continent <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. You a Yankee and me a Southern girl/Texan. . . We'd be great friends. If, that is, you could handle all 3 of my tomboy Monkeys hanging on you at once. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Quote: ====================================== Depac Chopra says that love itself is a separate entity. One we have almost no control over. But as a separate entity, it comes and it goes. And when it goes, one will choose to be the "leaver" and one will choose to be "left". ======================================
I agree, love will come and go, but property is a girl's best friend :-)
Keep your land. At least it won't lie to you.
Let time prove your ex's grit. Maybe he does have more sand than most, or maybe he is just a sieve.
Here we are wallowing in despair and dejection. Luckily I was a lifeguard and am still a great swimmer.
But can I add some too?
Or have we had our fill for the day?
Gray, what the hell is wrong with that chick? Could you have gotten your wires crossed? I saw your picture too, you know. Yer a right mighty pleasing gennelmun, yo'self (: yes, ridiculous accent added:)
She wasn't worth you then. Period. Better to know that now than to have dated her a few times, THEN found out (or worse). Now she's SEP (somebody else's problem)...I'd take that over a false friend anyday.
So what are we gonna fix next on su casa? How many elephants do you have? Tradition dictates that you have seven, all facing the front door, all GIVEN to you. I've 3 so far. Should we start you a collection?
Mi casa, I am going to rip out the flooring in the entryway, formal living/dining (it's one room) and kitchen dinette. Then I'm gonna stain it to look like tile. All the look and feel of tile, 1/4 the cost.
Busy-ness, Gray. We will be busy...life is what happens to us when we're not paying attention. So let's not look directly at it...let's not dwell on it...let's just live.
What y'all don't know is she was one of TWO potiential future Mrs. Clouds. ALREADY.
He is handsome, smart, AND plays an instrument. Guys like me would be happy for his table scraps and you all are like POOR OLD GRAY.
Sorry Gray. LOTS of reasons why she missed. I say, give her a chance. What did SHE have to say about the miss? Anything you assume is just that - an assumption.
I probably jinxed you. You can take it out on me later. At least it would be some physical contact.
Ooops. Don't like where THAT'S heading, especially with Kimmy watching.
NCWalker (who is now pretty much CONVINCED there is a reason for everything)
Oh man, Gray.... I just read -- 2-3 days ago -- something about women not showing up for The First Date. IOW, it made it seem pretty darn M.O. these days.
Far be it from me to understand...
but I just wanted to throw out another "don't take it personally."
NC, you seem pretty articulate, pleasant, agreeable. Are you saying you haven't found the woman yet, or a woman?
If it's the latter, I find that hard to believe. Unless your standards or just too high? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You sound like a real sweetheart. If you were in TX I would set you up with 1 of my girlfriends; she is noble (per your idiotville post), and conversationally gifted, and attractive. Just not where you are (wherever that is).
Just when i thought I could live vicariously through you and your exploits. Don't you dare get discouraged Gray, I'm counting on you.
I'm going to wait until the final declaration before I make the big dating plunge. I have, however, found some prospective "potentials" that I'm keeping in my back pocket for just that time.
My approach may be somewhat different than yours Gray. I see you deftly tiptoeing through a light, articulate and humorous conversation smiling over a glass of red wine.
I would say I am articulate. I have a sense that I am also enjoyable company. I am honest, true, and don't play emotional games.
One would think I would be a great catch.
But it is kind of like the expert marksman who has no idea how to track game. We all have weaknesses and one of mine is reading the signs that the fairer sex gives off.
My STBX wife NEVER had to worry about me having an affair. Partly because of my integrity, but partly because I wouldn't know if a woman was interested in me if she bit me on the butt.
I am lacking somewhat in the social graces area and am generally considered big-hearted, but socially clumsy. My relationships tend to be more like "hold on for the ride" rather than "I'll sweep you off your feet." STBX's 1st OM was a REAL Cassanova. Probably should have worked on that skill in my M.
Any pointers? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Some of us just aren't leavers, weaver (How long before I get sick of that? Never!).
Oh, lord. Let's swim in our misery.
I have never hurt anybody this way. I'm so tired of these selfish chickenshit people. Off with their chickenshit heads!
Gray,
She just didn't show? How hurtful. Unless she was in the hospital, there is no excuse for rude, hurtful behavior, even if she did chicken out. You don't want another woman with low self esteem issues like your STBXW. You want someone with enough brass to NOT BE HURTFUL.
How high schoolish to just not show up and to not call the restaurant and leave a message at the very least.
It does seem like WS behavior, again. First hostile act in a very long time, but we haven't really been together. I let Plan B drop, seemed silly to keep it up. I forgot it is supposed to be for life, to protect ones heart.
I've decided I'm not going to let him buy me out. I am under emotional duress and won't sign anything. It was purchased together for our home someday. Now I will treat it as a business agreement, an investment. He is stuck with me on the title. Should have made it work with me, now he must live with the consequences of his actions.
He still hasn't called by the way. And he has no cell & no computer. It's easy to not contact him, I have no idea where he is. He works on the road, changing motels & towns often.
If he is involved with someone else, and has just been trying to appease me until I signed it over then life will be fun this summer, won't it. Oh yeah, what fun over on the island.
Oh well Gray, atleast we can all swim together in this sea of misery.
What did this gal look like? Any possibility that she might have been wearing Groucho glasses? Maybe she was sparrow in a disguise and she intended 2 stand you up? Think back. Can you prove, scientifically, that my hypothesis is 100% incorrect?
Weaver:
I can certainly understand you not wanting 2 sell your interest in the property like that. I don't buy his argument. If you have 2 sell it, I would think it would be sensible that you both sell at the same time, prefereably before anything's built on it.
Leaving you in the car while he tilts a beer? Sounds like my late FIL's behavior when my W was young. He was an alchoholic.
Unless she was in the hospital, there is no excuse for rude, hurtful behavior, even if she did chicken out
I have to agree with Weaver. Granted it's been a long time since I've been single (oh, Lord, I am dating myself), but doesn't everyone have a cell phone nowadays? C'mon. Hospital, dog died, car got stolen, whatever. I NEVER stood a guy up -- it just wasn't done. Even the ones I wasn't sure about -- they might have had this delectabley veiled redeeming character trait that I was unaware of at first, but what a joy to discover in them piece by piece. Give' em a chance, you know? They may just be a shimmering diamond in the rough. In fact, many of them were; just not my diamond. And they became wonderful friends.
I don't understand women today. Or maybe it's unmarried or young, never-been-committed women. Whatever.
Glad no one needed use of my antiquated lifeguarding skills last night. . . not only could I not find my life belt, but I fell asleep. LOL.
:: Please don't fire me ::
Hoping today is better for everyone, especially you guys, Gray, Faithful, 2long and Weaver.
Graycloud, I have no idea why she didn't show, and you don't either. I suggest you find out.
I made an appointment once and wrote it on the wrong day. I thought *I* had been stood up, but it was the other way around.
That is probably not the answer at all, and she may have very bad manners, BUT what would it hurt to try to find out?
Anything you could learn might help in the future.
I have another poem for you. I don't think you need it, because I think you are finally traveling again (not stuck.) It probably won't hurt - so here it is,
[IF]
If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you But make allowance for their doubting too, If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master, If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breath a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you; If all men count with you, but none too much, If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!
I don't know the way things were, but if you were always 100% there, and it was he that was always looking around........for him to say sell it to me, and you'll get it anyway doesn't make sense. It only makes sense if he was plotting. I vote against him.
Was he like that before? Was he good at ~acting~ to get his way?
Very soryy for your pain. Wish more could be done to exorcise it. As usual, I come up short on words to express the feelings.
Indiginous drums rolling in the distance. . . pensive inert heat and sweaty stillness. . .
Here we are, at Tribal Council . . .
Torches lit, participants wiggling in their seats . . . SS, Faithful, SLH, GC, NCW, 2long, Kimmy, Binder, Gimble Just J, Sleepless and Weaver.
"How do you vote, Still Seeking?" Jeff Probst cross examines SS. (LOL)
"It only makes sense if he was plotting. I vote against him."
SLH nods her head, while wondering if the palm frond waving behind Kimmy's head is edible. Then she snaps back to her senses. She whole-heartedly agrees. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
C'Mon, Weave, let's vote that traitor OFF the island!!
Oh my gosh, your too funny SLH! Yep the tribe has spoken.
I'm going to be okay. It is almost a relief. For several months I have been faced with this decision to make, and now I have the truth (I think). I was so afraid to post that I was thinking of going back with him. Gray knew but I didn't trust anyone else enough with my problem. I thought I would be judged. I was wrong, everyone on this board is wonderful, and on this thread - the greatest, IMO.
And yes SS, he is an expert con artist. Forth time he's (almost ?) fooled me now. I'm getting smarter.
The person I am worried about though is Gray.
Are you okay Gray? Her standing you up last night would have triggered all this past years betrayal/pain. That is what what is meant by baggage. Current hurts bring up past hurts. The mind can not tell the difference between past and present, nor can it tell the difference between real and imagined.
This is how the Russians were able to train their atheletes so well. But I digress.
Gray I agree with SS, it is important that you try and find out what happened. For your own sake.
I hope you post tonight, I'm a little worried about your emotional state.
I have no idea why she didn't show, and you don't either. I suggest you find out.
SS, I thought I might. I don't have her number (first lesson learned), but I know where she works.
The only thing holding me back was this: if she really just didn't want to have dinner with me, then approaching her will put her in a position of having to tell me, "Look dude, I'm not interested." I guess she owes me for skipping out though.
Anybody else think I should chase her down? I was going to do it today, then thought twice.
IMHO, I would chalk it up to her not taking the invitation seriously. I would be embarrased to show up if I thought maybe the guy was only joking, KWIM? You may run into her again and you could lightly ask her "hey I was here, where were you" or "boy that ___I ate for dinner was delicious, sorry I missed out on the good company".
What about a small spring bouquet of flowers (nothing too expensive or overpowering), with a simple message,
"Sorry we missed eachother last night. I was a few minutes late, and I'm sorry. Think we could try again? 555-555-5555 GrayCloud."
Thoughtful, Sincere, Forthright. You could even have it delivered and not have to see her (I don't blame you on that one; I would feel the same.)
We KNOW it's not YOUR fault she wasn't there, and you were't REALLY late, but it does take the pressure off her, you know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS, I love Kipling. I have a collection of his short stories and I am forever discovering nuances in them that point to what a intriguing man he was. Thank you for sharing that poem . . I didn't know he wrote poetry at all.
PS -- Alright everybody -- No swimming in the Deep End of the Misery Pool today until I find that life belt! It's called the deep end for a reason and I don't want to get my hair wet, I just washed it, you know? So let's just splash around in the Misery Kiddie Pool for a bit. LOL I can reach just fine in there.
"Sorry we missed eachother last night. I was a few minutes late, and I'm sorry. Think we could try again? 555-555-5555 GrayCloud."
I would like this but after learning about boundaries I feel if this goes anywhere, Gray is already telling her it is okay to be irresponsible. That he will not only accept but reward her for it.
Can you tell I've been here a year now?
I like FF's suggestion of asking if she would like to talk about it. Or just asking plain out "oh HELLO, where the hell were you last night?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Well, I guess I meant this only as an opening to find out *if* GC or even she actually had "penciled in the wrong date/time/etc", KWIM? It should be pretty obvious pretty early on if she is a flake, and then, alley-oop, overboard she goes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Not to be mean, or anything, but life's too short to put up with any shallow, selfish women! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Weaves asks: Can you tell I've been here a year now?
Girl, I may have started "reading the material" earlier than you, but you seem to know this stuff backwards and forwards, far better than I. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
NO ONE will ever treat you badly again. I am really proud of you, Weaves.
Gray, if you send the bouquet make sure you KNOW she will get it.
Someone way up top had two suggestions. The first ended with "where were you". Bad. Implies she owes you some accountability and makes you look controlling.
The other line about missing a nice dinner is the winner.
Give her the opportunity to save face. Another good one would be go hunt her down and say "Sorry, I must have mixed up the restraunt (unless it was REALLY clear where that was to be) or the time or the whatever..." Give her an out. If she was really ditching you, she'll just ditch you again. And you'll know. If she wasn't, you are protecting her from the faux pas and she'll appreciate it.
A long time ago I was voted spokesman for the male population. Heed my words.
Apology...yes. But not worth the time to worry over it, analyze it further or beat oneself up over it.
Suffice to say, hopefully her mother never finds out what a rude child she raised and leave it at that...SEP guys...this chica is SEP (somebody else's problem, thank my left big toe).
Gray is too fun and too hip to worry his purdy little head further.
Gray, put in some JC (that's Johnny Cash for you musical illiterates) and lets toast OUR mothers and our raisin' up!
BTW, did anyone actually know what "antediluvian" was, in that post of GC's a few pages back?? I had to look it up, and I was wondering if I was the only dunce on board. GC, you kill me.
It was dem disrep'table Looosiana schools I was su'ject'd to, ya know.
:: Shrugging -- it's my only defense <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ::
SLH, it's private and secret, the relevance of that word.
Kimmy, I'll actually do something nice for this girl. I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt. I got a little card. Inside, I wrote, "You devil, you didn't show on Tues. It was fun meeting you. Call if you want to try again. GC" and included my phone number. I'm sending it with a little bunch of flowers tomorrow. Nothing big. I don't care if she calls. Makes no difference to me. She gets some flowers, 'cause she made me feel good for a little while.
SLH, it's private and secret, the relevance of that word.
Kimmy, I'll actually do something nice for this girl. I'm gonna give her the benefit of the doubt. I got a little card. Inside, I wrote, "You devil, you didn't show on Tues. It was fun meeting you. Call if you want to try again. GC" and included my phone number. I'm sending it with a little bunch of flowers tomorrow. Nothing big. I don't care if she calls. Makes no difference to me. She gets some flowers, 'cause she made me feel good for a little while.
GC
I'm so impressed Gray.
Quote
She gets some flowers, 'cause she made me feel good for a little while.
I sent you know who a letter too. I mailed it to one of his daughters house. I was in a pretty bad place when I wrote it but I don't think there was any DJ's in it. I just let him know how terribly hurt I am, if all of this has just been a scam.
I don't think he is so evil as to actually plot it, but I do think that he is going in the direction of independence from me while still trying to keep me appeased and hanging on in case he decides he does want a future with me.
He did tell me once that he didn't think I could be crushed, that I was too strong. I don't think he thinks I bleed inside.
Well when he gets my letter, he'll know how much pain I am in. I don't have any idea what he will do with that knowledge though. I don't know now if he will even care.
Probably time for a thread of my own, I don't think the pain is going to go away very easily this time.
. . . And folks like you ( and me) have a whole lot better time sleeping and looking in mirrors than they do.
Bob is so right. I couldn't have said it better myself.
She gets some flowers, 'cause she made me feel good for a little while.
And this is why you have such a following, Gray -- because you embrace even tentative joys you experience with a quiet but enduring grasp, and take what you can away from them. We could all learn something.
(Okay, admittedly, my H is the same way and I haven't learned yet; someone knock me on the head with a rock or something! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But he still has ex girlfriends that would drop everything for him if I keeled over tomorrow, LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
Yo, Gray. My cousin has a simple rule: If someone blows her off, then they are off the list. Simple, clear, and to the point. If they can't do courtesy at the most basic level, she's not interested in teaching 'em.
She has better second dates than most people I know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I've been listening to A Rush of Blood to the Head again. Despite my history with it, it does not hurt. Such good music. It blows my mind. It makes me want to fall in love. Or somethin'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm . . . I'm . . . ecstatic! Excusez me; I know I sound flustered, I guess it's just an extraordinary case of kismet. . . but I was just thumbing through Shul's Lyrics' posting and stumbled across your post about CPs lyrics. Then I pop up on over here and you are making mention of the same thing I had seen earlier in the very post that I was reading, to me. Bizarre. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It doesn't hurt? More than that, it feels good? Invigorating, enlivening, uplifting? Holy Smokes, GC, but you are well-anchored and solid! Not that you won't be inclined to the occasional disheartening day, but who isn't? You are, officially, on your way back.
You will fall in love. And "something"! I just know it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
2long, you're not the old fart you'd have us believe -- not for a minute. Nice try though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Spies is telling.
GC, I've always enjoyed Yellow; it's rather simple but I think its simplicity is what makes it so pleasing.
I've also loved the myriad ways The Scientist can be appreciated:
Come up to meet you Tell you I'm sorry You don't know how lovely you are;
I had to find you Tell you I need you, Tell you I set you apart. . .
. . .
. . .Nobody said it was easy, It's such a shame for us to part; Nobody said it was easy, No one ever said it would be this hard. . .
Oh take me back to the start
I've always loved Green Eyes -- have it downloaded-- but it was always attributed to some other band; I had no idea it was by Coldplay until recently. Go figure.
X&Y should be good, judging from what the band has said they drew their inspirations from. Guess we'll find out in June. So far, here's the lyrics to the first cut. . .promising, wouldn't you say?
~ SLH
Speed of Sound by Coldplay
How long before I get in? Before it starts, before I begin? How long before you decide? Before I know what it feels like? Where To, where do I go? If you never try, then you'll never know. How long do I have to climb, Up on the side of this mountain of mine?
Look up, I look up at night, Planets are moving at the speed of light. Climb up, up in the trees, every chance that you get, is a chance you seize. How long am I gonna stand, with my head stuck under the sand? I'll start before I can stop, before I see things the right way up.
All that noise, and all that sound, All those places I got found. And birds go flying at the speed of sound, to show you how it all began. Birds came flying from the underground, if you could see it then you'd understand?
Ideas that you'll never find, All the inventors could never design. The buildings that you put up, Japan and China all lit up. The sign that I couldn't read, or a light that I couldn't see, some things you have to believe, but others are puzzles, puzzling me.
All that noise, and all that sound, All those places I got found. And birds go flying at the speed of sound, to show you how it all began. Birds came flying from the underground, if you could see it then you'd understand, ah when you see it then you'll understand?
All those signs, I knew what they meant. Some things you can invent. Some get made, and some get sent, Ooh?
Birds go flying at the speed of sound, to show you how it all began. Birds came flying from the underground, if you could see it then you'd understand, ah, when you see it then you'll understand?
Weaves said: I sent you know who a letter too.. .I was in a pretty bad place when I wrote it but I don't think there was any DJ's in it. I just let him know how terribly hurt I am, if all of this has just been a scam. . .I don't think he is so evil as to actually plot it, but I do think that he is going in the direction of independence from me while still trying to keep me appeased and hanging on in case he decides he does want a future with me. . . Well when he gets my letter, he'll know how much pain I am in. I don't have any idea what he will do with that knowledge though. I don't know now if he will even care. . . Probably time for a thread of my own, I don't think the pain is going to go away very easily this time.
Hey Weaves,
You haven't posted in a while and I've been kinda concerned about you. Has Pooter-Head gotten the letter by now? Have you heard anything from him? Did you decide to open a new thread and I just missed it? Let us know when you get a moment, just a heads up that you're okay. Okay?
I love your sig line, don't know if I told you that yet.
He will not get the letter until tomorrow. I did make an appt with an atty, actually he is a friend of my families. He is going to write up some kind of doc for me stating I want half the appraised value, also that until the matter is settled my DD and I will use the property and that I will not be intimitated, or disrespected by him or any members of his family in an attempt to keep me out.
I don't know what else to do. And no he still hasn't called. I'm going to be okay. This time I really am going to get on with my life. Not just pretend to like I did last time. It will probably be the end of us, but I don't want him if he hasn't changed anyway.
Just went and bought some flowers for the window boxes, so better go plant them.
How are things with you SLH? I'll check back later for an update!
Everyone on this thread are such night owls. I'm amazed when I check in the morning and see all the nighttime activity.
SLH, ain't it fun when coincidences like that happen?
Sometimes I'll play guitar and sing while the TV is on. Occasionally, a character on a sitcom will say a word or phrase with me, or the music of an ad matches what I'm playing exactly, just for a second. Good stuff.
Weaver, I'm so sorry if you were pulled in under a false impression. How disappointing. Whatever you do, make sure your asset is protected.
And you know... these puffy eyes prove my cred as a nightowl! I didn't get 'em from cryin'...
Weave, I don't know if you listen to this kind of music, but it seemed to fit in your case. I'm going to post more later or tomorrow but I just wanted to throw this out there. Are we hung up on music and poetry, or what?
Love you, girlie.
SLH
Stay Gone
Jimmy Wayne
[i]I found piece of mind I'm feeling good again I'm on the other side Back among the living Ain't a cloud in the sky All my tears have been cried And I can finally say
Baby, baby stay Stay right where you are I like it this way It's good for my heart I haven't felt like this In God knows how long I know everything's gonna be okay If you just Stay Gone
I still love you and I will forever We can't hide the truth We know each other better When we try to make it work We both end up hurt And it ain't supposed to be that way
So baby, baby stay Stay right where you are I like it this way It's good for my heart I haven't felt like this In God knows how long I know everything's gonna be okay If you just Stay Gone
When you try to make it work We both end up hurt Love ain't supposed to be this way. . .
So baby, baby stay Stay right where you are I like it this way It's good for my heart I haven't felt like this In, oh, God knows how long I know everything's gonna be okay If you just stay gone
I know everything's gonna be okay . . . If you just stay gone[i]
Had a gig tonight. Small opening gig... we've been out of the scene for a year now. Lots more shows lined up. A fella was at the show, told me to email him, set up something at the club he books.
Oh, can I tell you, it was so good to get out there again. Music is the BEST.
"2long, you're not the old fart you'd have us believe -- not for a minute. Nice try though. Spies is telling."
Yep, I most CERTAINLY am! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It was my DAUGHTER who 2rned us on2 Coldplay.
Bet you don't remember this one!:
"Itchycoo Park" - Small Faces
"Over Bridges of Sighs To rest my eyes in shades of green Under Dreaming Spires To Itchycoo Park, that's where I've been
(Chorus 1) What did you do there? - I got high What did you feel there? - Well I cried But why the tears there? - I'll tell you why - yyyyy It's all too beautiful, It's all too beautiful It's all too beautiful, It's all too beautiful
(Bridge) I feel inclined to blow my mind Get hung up, feed the ducks with a bun They all come out to groove about Be nice and have fun in the sun
I'll tell you what I'll do - What will you do? I'd like to go there now with you You can miss out school - Won't that be cool Why go to learn the words of fools?
(Chorus 2) What will we do there? - We'll get high What will we touch there? - We'll touch the sky But why the tears there? I'll tell you why It's all too beautiful, It's all too beautiful It's all too beautiful, It's all too beautiful
I feel inclined to blow my mind Get hung up, feed the ducks with a bun They all come out to groove about Be nice and have fun in the sun It's all too beautiful, It's all too beautiful It's all too beautiful, It's all too beautiful"
-ol' 2long P.S. Trust me, you had 2 be there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Or this one (perhaps my favorite "Power of Now" themes):
"Remember", - The Association
"There'll come a day when you and I are one A day when we no longer need the sun Out of time and space we'll be Aside all of eternity
You'll hear my voice with different ears You'll live the dreams of timeless years Your eyes will be the silver stars That live and shine and see so far
Though thoughts and things have come between And we exist in different scenes I'll recognize you on the day When all the darkness goes away And we won't count our time by day
So sing your songs of now, my dear And make your voice so loud and clear And when the songs change - well, never mind (never mind) For they were made to stay behind (stay behind) And we were meant for nevertime ...Remember"
I was reading Pepper's thread about the affair being the enemy. There was weaver's response... maybe love is the enemy.
Uh huh.
The sparrow is not a good person. I'm sorry to say, I think very little of her. I hope that some day she'll be redeemed, though I don't have any faith in her.
I told her in my PBL, and I think I also told her over the phone once, that I believed in her.
I don't any more. That makes me really, really sad. It's my new challenge, figuring out where in my heart I'm supposed to keep her. I can't find a place for her in there.
Even though I'm doing very well, I'm still grieving for her. Today I shed a few tears because I can't figure out how to remember her.
Once, she was this sweet girl who adored me, and now she's this creature who just a few days ago stared me down, placed insane demands on me, and showed no trace of humility or compassion.
Without the attachment, she'd be just another person, accepted for who she is, good and bad and everything else.
Don't worry on me though. I'm okay. Just workin' through the guck.
I had a crazy weekend. Party party party.
Oh, and about Revenge of the Sith: Anakin's attachment to Padme is his undoing.
Don't worry on me though. I'm okay. Just workin' through the guck.
I had a crazy weekend. Party party party.
Gray, I am so glad you had a gig and had some fun! Where sparrow lands in your heart only time will tell. Don't dwell on it. You are really doing great. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Have only read the past two pages so while you're on the theme of music, I watched a film yesterday called "Ladder 49" with John Travolta & Joaquim Phoenix. Nothing special although my 3 daughters bawled their eyes out at the end. But it had a lovely soundtrack. Gaelic sounds, David Gray and others. If anyone likes a bit of Irish music, you might want to tune in.
Och! Per'apsn' ye wee lassies will share some names wi' an auld friend? I LOVE Gaelic music, and I'd appreciate any names you could toss my way for downloads. You should know that after Idiotville Saturday night, lol!!!
Will write more later, need to get something done today!
Gray, I've wanted to ask you how you felt about the Sparrow, if being angry was some sort of salvation, if forgiveness didn't provide the protective armament that revulsion, or even blazing animosity, could. Would you now change the way you feel about her if you could? Would you give up any of the things she has brought to you, those gifts of contributing to whom you have become, not through the horrors, but during the light of your love?
I've been reluctant to ask because I didn't want to pry; please feel free to rebuke me if you wish.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SS, how are you now? I know so little about you but you always know what to say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
My prayer is that one day soon Weaver can heal and become the person we all see her as, inside. . . maybe her recess from the board will offer her some clarity. I hope so.
Slh, You are very kind - I wish I FELT like I always knew what to say.
I had a good weekend. My problem is having so much to do I don't get to do some of the things I would like to do, such as posting more often. Oh well, it's all in the choices, I could say no -
I came to MB by accident, we had no A at our house. I realized this information could improve our M, and it has improved it. My W and I sometimes discuss these posts, and those I post to. Sometimes I ask her for advice, but she has never posted herself. I think I read for 4 or 5 months before I first posted.
We have 8 children, 5 of them are married, I turn 50 this year.
Sorry if that is too much.
You do welll yourself, I can tell you care about people, and what happens to them. I hope the things are improving for you.
Oh, and....... I have met 2long, and Graycloud in person, that's how I know so many good things about them both. I have respect and admiration for both of them.
(I held it down on purpose Gray, out of respect for your feelings, but next time, I will say ALL the good stuff, and won't hold back.)
Weaver does seem to be hurting right now. Wish we could help more.
Gray, I've wanted to ask you how you felt about the Sparrow, if being angry was some sort of salvation, if forgiveness didn't provide the protective armament that revulsion, or even blazing animosity, could.
I don't call it forgiveness when the other person isn't remorseful.
Even if you could forgive a remorseless person, it's hard to forgive your attacker when she's still attacking you.
How do I feel about her? Lots of different things. Mostly I feel disappointment. I thought she was above all this. Some people are, you know.
Quote
Would you now change the way you feel about her if you could? Would you give up any of the things she has brought to you, those gifts of contributing to whom you have become, not through the horrors, but during the light of your love?
I don't know. I usually avoid those games, like asking would I give up my past with her. I admit, though, that once, when I was feeling a bottomless sort of sorrow, I said that I'd erase her from my past if it were possible.
She gave me the opportunity to love her for a while. Maybe that's all she gave me. She promised more than that, but she broke the promise, and soon it'll be time for me not to protest that any more. I've protested enough.
I don't call it forgiveness when the other person isn't remorseful.
Even if you could forgive a remorseless person, it's hard to forgive your attacker when she's still attacking you.
I think once the whole D process is over and sparrow can no longer hold any power over you, you may find you can forgive her. Forgiveness of an unrepentent person is for YOU, not them. {{GC}}
I want those skateboards from Back to the Future 2
Faithful, we're dating ourselves when we say things like that, you know.
Personally, I'd like a magic carpet, something from Piers Anthony. Weeee! Or maybe a Mortis! I just don't want to be Death. (Okay, I am still dating myself).
GC, Faithful's right. Forgiveness isn't dependant on the other person's mental state towards you, ever. Ever been on the 12 Step Program, or known someone who has? None of this is news to you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
In 10 years, she will be who she is and you will be who you are. And like you said, you bump into her one day, exchange niceties, climb back into your (super-cool-flying) car and hold your beautiful (supermodel) wife's hand just a little tighter. Because your relationship with her (wife) will be that much better because of all of this. The Sparrow inadv. led you to MB, where you are gathering the tools to be an amazing husband to some incredibly fortunate woman out there. . . someone who will truly appreciate you as the Sparrow didn't. Through all of the tragedy and tears. . .you are a better person, yes? At times bitter, sometimes resentful, but better?
SLH, thanks. I reckon I'm a better person since the affair started. Certainly I'll be a better partner.
I know forgiveness doesn't depend on her. I don't refuse to do it, but I'm not ready to, and I don't believe I'm obligated to. I also don't think it's so black and white, that either I forgive her or I spend my life all stubborn and bitter. I believe I can walk away from her, let go of my anger and my resentment and my disappointment and all, and still not forgive her either.
I think of forgiveness this way: I think of it as, "We're cool." As in, "I am no longer bothered by what you did." As in, "You are off the hook." As in, I bump into you and we make plans to get together or we laugh and talk about old times. As in, "Oh, you and the tinman had a baby? Congratulations; that's wonderful. I'm so glad. I'm sure the two of you will make wonderful parents."
I don't see that happening. But I won't hang on to any resentment either.
See what I mean?
I'll let whatever happens happen. I'm not going to sweat it.
Possibly, FF, but fast forward ten years. Say I'm perfectly happy and my life is just swell, I feel I've forgiven the sparrow, and I run into her.
I don't know what happens.
It's fun to wonder though. Probably I'll just say, Well I'll be, hop in my flying car, and go about my business.
Please don't tell me there won't be flying cars yet. Gimme SOMETHIN'!
GC
"She hands me twenty dollars for a two fifty fare, and says Gray, keep the change
Well another man may have been angry, another man may have been hurt. And another man never would have let her go, me I stuffed the bill in my shirt.
And she walked away in silence, it's strange how you never know.
But we'd both gotten what we asked for, such a long, long time ago..."
Hey everybody! Thank you for thinking of me. I love all of you.
Just had to step out of my misery for a moment when I seen this post of Gray's. Reminded me of a song.
And one more thing before I put my girl to bed -
WooHoooo Mr and Mrs Seeking!
Eight children and still among the sane. That makes you my heros.
Hi Mrs. Seeking. I'm glad to hear you are the master mind behind SS's posts! It all makes sense now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I am so blown away. Too cool! I only listened to the first three because I have to get her to bed and she HATES when I am on the computer. I have to listen again in the morning to listen to the guitar.
How come there is no info on the musicians? Is that coming?
Hey, you! I have nothing of enormous value to contribute, but I wanted you to know I've been reading along on your galavants with your merry troupe here.
Regarding forgiveness, I think you are confusing two things: forgiveness and repentance. Remember how the wolf and the sparrow are similar? The wolf never has and probably never will repent for what he did (affairs, breaking up the family, hurting the kids...none of it), but I did eventually forgive him because that has to do with ME and not HIM. Is he "off the hook"? I don't think so...I just realize that God is the one to provide that consequence and not me. To me, forgiveness is when I release the hurtful feelings I held onto for so long. See, GC, you can choose to continue to hold those hurts close and keep scratching the scab off the wounds that sparrow caused...
...OR...
...you can take the scary plunge into releasing those hurts and not holding them so dear. You can let them go and allow the wounds to heal, scar over, and maybe even go away. That doesn't mean she is "off the hook"--it means you are not going to keep putting yourself through it. And THAT is forgiveness!!
So, dude, it's fairly simple. Do you want to keep holding onto the hurt and the wounds? Or do you want to take the leap into maybe allowing them the heal and not "forgetting" but getting past it?? That's the question of whether or not you can, and will, forgive.
Hey, I really enjoyed those. I mean, there are any number of people who claim to play in a band. . .but that was pretty darn good. And the riffs in Don't Disappear and Vermillion were sweet! (Okay, I was engaged to a guitarist for years and I still can't remember -- is it "riffs" or "licks"? He always said that licks are note-patterns or finger-patterns and are always a lead guitar thing, and riffs occur in the rhythm guitar parts, not the lead, and are achor-based melody with a rhythm to it. . . no? So which is it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />)
Hell, it's been well over a decade!! And I am claiming plain old age if I am waaaay off base here (which is all too possible).
Thanks for sharing that GC. It was trusting and down right sweet. Plus, you can always go back and delete the post, and your secret will be safe with us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
So, don't you have, like, gorgeous groupies chasing you down already? Like, man, that's gotta suck, dude. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
BTW, Weaves said that she could "only download the first three". . . but I only saw three total. Are there more? I'd be interested in hearing them.
To me, forgiveness is when I release the hurtful feelings I held onto for so long. See, GC, you can choose to continue to hold those hurts close and keep scratching the scab off the wounds that sparrow caused...
The other day, when I saw her in court, I tried to keep a soft heart. But I fought righteous anger all the while.
After going for a drink of water, I walked down a long hallway. She sat at the end of the hall, me walking toward her. I looked in her eyes. She looked back at me. We stayed stuck that way for a while.
I'm trying to remember this honestly. As I walked, I wondered what she was thinking. Her unbroken stare suggested only one thing to me: pride.
Finally, I thought, I love you, but I'm finished with this. She continued to stare in my eyes, and I turned away and walked on around the corner.
That stare-down was the closest we got to any kind of communication.
I'm reflecting a lot these last few days, but I'm not furious or depressed. And I'm not dwelling on my injuries.
Thanks, SLH. Want me to get pretentious? The 2nd solo in Vermillion is, partly at least, a rip-off of some parts of A Love Supreme. The four notes that open it are the "a looove supreeeme" refrain. I'm a freak for John Coltrane.
You have the licks/riffs thing right.
Groupies, nah. We're just a humble little local band nobody knows anything about. The other night, after we were done, I was outside with my smoker friend. A cute girl asked for a light. My friend passed her lighter to me, and I lit the girl's cigarette. She apologized for interrupting our conversation. I said, "Sheah. Why don't you stay for a bit?" She took out her phone and walked away.
SLH, I do write songs. I'm just painfully slow at finishing them. I have five that the band plays, and another million or so that I'm having trouble finishing.
One even has a shout to weaver in it, though you'd never know I was talking about a wonderful Yooper I know from an online board.
SLH, I do write songs. I'm just painfully slow at finishing them. I have five that the band plays, and another million or so that I'm having trouble finishing.
You are going to make me beg, aren't you?
Cruel man. And you know our love of poetry, too!
That's alright; I am patient. MMMMmmwmwwwwaaaaa haaa haaaa hhaaaa!!!!
No, really, if you don't want to share, I understand. If you don't want to share online, I understand. If you really don't mind sharing at at, NCWalker has my email and I promise not to share your writing with anyone.
No pressure, really.
Back to the History Channel, and those damn yankees (lol).
Okay, guys. I just got back from Wal-mart with my DDs, killing time while we had new tires ($470 worth :: gulping loudly :: ) put on our car. As we passed the Teen/Juniors section, I happened to see a bunch of shirts hanging prominently in front in vibrant colors, proclaiming extravagently "Pink Floyd" and "AC/DC".
Do these kids even know who these groups are these days??? Or do they just like the colors? LOL Makes me feel so bloody old and haggard. I was so tempted to mosey over and casually thumb through the rest of the shirts I could not see to find out who else could be back there, hidden behind the ones on display, but I wouldn't have wanted to shock and offend Wal-Mart's potential Young Miss customers, LOL. Oh, the horror of having someone like your mom shopping in a teenage section!!! My Gawd!
I'm going to go put on some Fuel or Nickelback and remind myself I am not as old as I am. . .er. . .wait. . .
You know, I was a beautiful diver in middle and high school. Not from great, great heights, mind you, but 3 meters? Shoot, I was grace personified. I would casually measure the distance needed to perform whichever manuever I was planning for that particular dive, dart out onto the board, spring, and-- Nary a splash. My body and the water became one, fluid with eachother. I'd swim for hours on end, in the pool, the lake, the ocean. The water embraced me, sensually cradling me, never in a sexual sense but rather as a warm, comforting, caress. I loathed having to get out, to feel the weight of the Earth pulling me down, making me again feel exposed, vincible, Mortal.
Of course I outgrew that.
Today I feel as if I have just emerged from the water, the waves, after being enfolded in their protective silken grasp for a long, long time. Unsteady. Blinded by brightness. Trying to familiarize myself with the new heaviness of my limbs, an unnacustomed ballast.
How long can people go without their ENs being met?
Guys, I am sorry about my spouting off yesterday. Usually I think I am holding it together okay and then something happens that is my unravelling. For the most part I am not so capricious; must be the call of the Sirens this summer, or something.
Please don't apologize, SLH. I wrote a reply, but it meandered badly in search of a point, and then the battery on my computer went dead, the computer zonked, I realized it was way, WAY too late to still be up, and... well here I am.
Please don't apologize, SLH. I wrote a reply, but it meandered badly in search of a point, and then the battery on my computer went dead, the computer zonked, I realized it was way, WAY too late to still be up, and. . .
I think I'm okay today. Just don't let me out in the deep end of the Misery Pool again without my arm floaties on, okay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL
Just been . . . floundering . . . lately. Too long with too little. Weary of seeing people I am beginning to care dearly for beome disillusioned and thwarted, the miscarriage of justice too great too often. Dealing with my own ineptitude in a host of things, succombing to those demons more often than not. Nothing truly life altering, not a fork in my road, merely another obstacle to plow through as I have so many other times.
Can somebody else hold the life jacket for a bit while I wallow? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I promise not to wade out too far, LOL.
You guys just had to be getting frakking sick of my ridiculous pep talks anyway!! lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Graycloud, Your feelings have been going round and round again. Not that I worry, but I know it's not fun.
What do you look foreword to?
I mean, short term, the next 6 months, what things?
I was trying to figure out what SLH was apologizing for. Are we not still on MB?
How long can people go without their ENs being met?
In fact, I think she ought to talk about things a little more.
Dealing with my own ineptitude in a host of things,.......
OH, I suppose you think the rest of us have more ept in our titude than you do?
Websters: inept - one of the few things SS does well.
You know we are all in the same boat - don't you? Nothing truly life altering, not a fork in my road, merely another obstacle to plow through as I have so many other times.
So, talk.
You guys just had to be getting frakking sick of my ridiculous pep talks anyway!! lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Not yet, but go on for another 30 or 40 years, and I'll get back to you if I have a problem. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Your feelings have been going round and round again. Not that I worry, but I know it's not fun.
They have. Crappy things have happened in the last two weeks. Things that I take personally, that make me feel cheated.
For lots of years, I had two recurring dreams. In one, I'm driving my car. I have to get somewhere. But I'm very tired, can hardly stay awake, and my windows are fogged. In that dream I always crash or go in the ditch, though it's rarely disastrous. The nasty part of the dream is just trying to drive a car under terrible circumstances.
In the second, I'm being chased and I've lost the ability to run fast. I run, but I can't get any speed. My body just won't do it. I bet that's a common one.
Besides those two, I've had frequent nightmares for most of my adulthood. I used to have sleep paralysis very often. That was scary, because it seemed absolutely real.
The other night, I had a new dream, the first good one I can remember in a long time. I was with a beautiful dark-haired woman, swimming behind an island that moved through the sea. The water was very rough. But we weren't swimming in the water so much as above it. In the island's wake, we swam as fast as we liked. I felt powerful and happy, and I felt that this woman loved me. In the dream I thought, this is what flying dreams are like.
I don't feel my attachment to my wife any more. But I do feel very alone.
Quote
What do you look foreword to?
I look forward to working on my house, and playing music.
I hate to admit it, I really do, but I would like to have a female show some interest in me. I want to get in touch with Annie. It's a pickle. It may be better if I wait 'til my D is finished, but...
Hey Kimmy, thanks for the creampuffs, sweetheart. Hate to be a downer.
And I agree, SLH is a little vague. C'mon sister, out with it!
Thanks again for the treats Kimmy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Awww, guys. I'm not vague. . . perhaps just. . . just tentative. With all of the very real anguish and turmoil and sorrow that has saturated this board, these pages in fact, I guess it's hard to feel that my problems hold much credence in comparison. My reluctance to share is only that you will think less of me, think I am grousing and lamenting when I have no right to be, when there are so many others on this board who have no one to grouse and lament about, or, have an affair crisis.
Remember, I came to MB because I felt I needed to bolster my resolution to meet my H's needs, and to make certain that I was not tempted to give license to mine being met elsewhere. I'd been feeling neglected, pushed aside, ignored, unappreciated, etc. and I had found myself getting too comfortable emotionally with another friend (yes, male, similar passions) when the person I should have been depending on was H. No affair ever took place in our marriage.
Rather than bore everyone with the threadbare details, suffice to say I am at the same place I was at 6 months ago, a year ago. Knowing and practicing MB, not always diligently, but more often than not. My H has never had to play games to get his needs met; it is something I truly enjoy doing and he readily admits that he reaps the rewards of MB.
I don't.
Don't get me wrong. He treats me well (certainly better than most of the h's I've heard of on this board), doesn't cheat, provides for my wants, and is a good father.
I just don't get my needs met. He tries, I suppose, but there isn't enough time, someone is always clamouring on him for something, work, family, house repairs, etc. Remember, this man works 2 jobs a day (14 hours), 5 days a week, so we can send our kids to a decent school in the area we live in. Weekends are for "cleanup" -- everything I couldn't do during the week. I can't blame him. But the stresses in our lives lead to distance between our hearts, expanses that are difficult to reclaim.
Mostly I guess my wandering post was a vent. I'm sorry. There's not too much anyone could say in terms of "direction". . . this is where we are right now. Choices, choices. But our choices have led to me feeling unfulfilled and saddened, mourning who I was, who I still could be, with him.
Have y'all ever done everything right. . . "by the book" per se. . . met all of your spouse's needs and still not had yours met? What happened? Are you still chugging merrily along, as I, wishing for a light bulb moment in your Spouse's head one fine day? Or are there rapids ahead I should be aware of?
This brutal work schedule is nothing permanant; in fact it is only for the next handful of months to pay off our worst bills. But I am concerned it will always be something. . . it has been, thus far.
"Well, aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?" LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Glad you liked the cream puffs. My grandma used to make them when we'd go to Milwaukee to visit. I'd never made them before...but I've got to say...they are worth it & it was fun making them.
Now, you've got to eat them on a blowy summer day...iced tea must be served and oldersters must be reliving their past adventures while watching kiddoes playing on the lawn. I pictured that while I was eating them. Gonna write grandma and tell her that I love her.
We're doing very well. After the day's work was done, we ate pizza, looked at paint swatches, talked a little about sparrow. Had to stop that because my mom takes this all very, very personally. My mother has what some of you call a servant's heart, more than anybody I know. She thinks about other people all the time. She doesn't understand people who don't. Plus she's my mom, so naturally this whole business has hurt her, far more than I would have guessed. She still suffers terribly over it. Just thinking about it brings her to tears, and she's still mad as a hornet at the sparrow. I see this collateral suffering and it makes me like my wife even less.
Which makes this next bit even more bizarre.
I feel guilty about my infamous plan b phone conversation, and really the whole exercise. Sparrow cried, and plenty hard, when I told her I would not have anything to do with her, ever. Yeah, maybe after we hung up she dried her eyes, said, well, figures, and went about her business. But I'm driven by a strange, strange impulse. I feel like reaching out to her in friendship. Now before you all go telling me how sweet but foolhardy this is, me having this impulse... and how she'd be not at all interested, it's unlikely that I'll actually do it. But in my indignation and my refusal to associate with her, I hurt her. Yes, it was insane if she expected me to have anything to do with her.
Damn my eyes, I still love her. I should hate her. I don't love her in any romantic way, or in any attached, baby-please-come-back way. Not interested. I deserve someone who cares about me enough to not abuse me. But I have an odd feeling of concern for her, and I have some kind of vague hope for her. I don't know what it is. I can't put my finger on it and trap it long enough to get a good look at it. But there's something there. It's not just brotherly love. It's more personal than that. And it's not deliberate.
Feels good to write about this. I'm a little confused about it. It feels like letting go, and not, all at once.
You said: "It's not just brotherly love. It's more personal than that. And it's not deliberate."
You still love her. That is perfectly normal. She was in your head for over a decade. You have history together.
What will eventually happen, Gray, is the history and the memories will simply become facts in your mind, not memories bathed in emotion.
It takes time. There is nothing wrong in processing how you feel about her and your marriage. That is part of your healing.
Oh yea, I listened to your group on both websites. I really enjoyed all of the songs. Beth has a really nice voice. She reminds me of the singer on "Dead Dog's Eyeball", but I can't remember her name right now. I guess I am getting old :-)
Thank you, Gimble. I like the Dead Dog's Eyeball stuff. Beth's voice is similar... not warbly like that, but similar.
So tomorrow is the one-year anniversary of the sparrow coming home after secretly carousing in the woods with the tinman over Mem. Day weekend, when she was supposed to be at the cabin "thinking". She came home and said, "I tried to miss you but didn't." Yeah, having the tinman's hand down your pants probably made it hard to miss me. And she said, "I think we should break up."
It was the day she took my life away from me. It was "Katie, bar the door." A day of pure horror, followed by many months of loneliness and sorrow. In the year that's passed, she has not showed me one speck of kindness or compassion. She's Darth Vader.
I have not written in awhile, gc...I, too, recently had the urge to reach out to my husband in friendship--but that night I found out he's most likely engaged and our papers have not even been filed yet. Lol...thankfully that feeling passed quickly.
Perhaps you are not letting yourself let go of sparrow. This is my problem lately. I know I need to let go....I WANT to let go. But once I do...then it really it all over. A little hard to deal with that.
Ais, I think I'm further along than that. Still hurts sometimes, but my attachment to my wife is toast.
My IC told me, last time I saw her, that she saw a different fella walk into her office that day. She also advised me not to get surprised if I'm still hit with spells of sadness now and then.
She said something like, "You've allowed yourself to feel your pain, and even though that's tough, it's the best way to get through something like this."
Whatever.
Ais, sorry about your discoveries. Seems to me, your mistake has been trying to give him too much slack. Whatever the circumstances, he's acted like an a-hole from the beginning.
Quote: =========================== So tomorrow is the one-year anniversary of the sparrow coming home after secretly carousing in the woods with the tinman over Mem. Day weekend, ... ===========================
It is obvious (and normal) that you are still bothered by your wife's behavior. So let me ask you a question or four. When her relationship with other man is busted up, and she sends out feelers to see if you are still interested in her, what are you going to do? Where do you plan to be with your life?
I had another thought about your band. The last cut on Suzanne Vega's first album, I think the title is "Neighborhood Girls", is perfect fit for Beth's voice. What do you think?
Gimble, I don't believe she would ever reach out to me.
If she did, I'd talk to her. Because I want so badly to forgive her, and for her to be engaged in that forgiveness.
There's a fella posts here once in a blue moon. He and his family live in my area. His wife had an affair. Not so long ago, she got up in front of their church and talked about her affair. I have the recording of it.
Those are the kind of guts my wife would need if she ever wanted me to have anything to do with her. She does not have them.
Time is the great revelator. It watches the wearing down of rock, and hearts that soften. The bible talks about how all things will be revealed in time, and of unspoken secret things that will be shouted out atop of mountains.
Regardless of how hard she tries, your wife will never escape the truth of time.
Tonight I was shot down by someone. I was ready for that, I thought. But it hurrrrrrrrrt. I went to my gig feeling awful.
Later, a guy in one of the other bands we played with said something nasty to me, something that insulted me, unprovoked. The thing that started it all, I was being nice to him. He was showing off, acting like a tough guy. So I said, "That's some attitude you got there, mister." But I was still pissed off. I couldn't let it go. A few minutes later I got an opening and shot something a little more harsh at him. He had it coming. I stood up for myself. He was very, very unpleasant. But now I feel horrible about it. I fell into his little trap of ugliness, and it makes me sick.
How does this relate to everything else? Who knows? I feel like a repulsive man and a failure. All it took was one a-hole to get me foaming at the mouth.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with my M getting ground up by an affair. I don't think this day being a big anniversary had anything to do with it.
Everyone has a nasty day here and there. What you are is normal.
Here is a way for you to work off some of that, and learn a thing or two about yourself in real time.
Find a local gym that offers boxing. Go there, get on some gloves, and buy yourself a sparring partner for a few rounds.
You may get a bloody nose, but I promise that you will learn more about yourself in fifteen minutes than you ever thought possible. In addition, you will lose a lot of anger, and a fair amount of fear.
If you do it, I promise that you will walk out of that place feeling like a million dollars.
By the way, the real tough guys don't act tough. They don't have to.
Just being human, GC. You know WHY you are disappointed in yourself? Because you are a good man with a big heart. Everyone has weak spots, this man just found yours and push those buttons. I love the boxing idea, btw. I have thought about taking up kickboxing to get my anger and aggressions out.
Well, all my dating prospects have gone bye bye, so I don't have that to worry on for a while.
The sparrow's divorce decree is waiting for my signature.
Just spent a week working on my house. You should see it. It's done! Just kidding. I've barely begun, goldangit.
I've been terribly sad the last week. I think I'm in lexapro withdrawal. Stopped taking it about ten days ago. Gotta just ride it out for a few weeks, is what I'm hoping.
Amazing, what can happen to your life, ain't it? I'm so hard up. Last night a purdy waitress at the club we played asked me how I was doing (i.e. did I want another drink). I said, "I'm swell." She smiled, said, "Best adjective all night." In my mind, I even made a big deal out of that. Later we bantered for a minute as I was on my way out. No biggie. But women have been giving me hell for a few weeks, so I was willing to take anything, haw haw.
Great GC. You know, of course, that she is a private in the army of Lucifer sent to subjegate our gender and bring ruin and misery into your life don't you?
I suggest next time have a vial of holy water, throw it on her and attempt to find a (is it silver or wood....or is that for vampires??)stake to drive through her heart.
Oh yeah....does she have a sister? AAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGGG! There I go again!!
A common piece of advice I've heard, and followed, this past year, is that someone in my shoes should not direct his anger at the WS. Exercise, go headbanging, get a punching bag, play loud music... but don't direct your anger at the person who caused it. It will only diminish you and make you feel worse, and do damage to your efforts to save your M. It is an unloving act.
They say it's unnecessary, that her consequences will come. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of her life.
They say it's unnecessary, that her consequences will come. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of her life.
I'm not always convinced.
I suggest next time have a vial of holy water, throw it on her and attempt to find a (is it silver or wood....or is that for vampires??)stake to drive through her heart.
SLH, I did some checking. I don't think "The Rainbow Connection" has ever been done justice. Willie's version is pretty good, but...
The selfish poster GC is having pretty outrageous shifts in his mood these days, which again... let's blame AD withdrawal.
I'm trying to figure out what to do about future contact with the sparrow. Though the likelihood is as tiny as her compassion, my vision of it as black as her heart.
Hopefully, that's all over... but I foresee one or two minor skirmishes over stuff.
I'm repairing the plaster in my bedroom. I love the smell of fresh plaster. My room doesn't smell like it's in an 80-year-old house. It smells clean and new. I'd like to bottle that smell. Okay that's tweaked. Who would bottle the smell of plaster? Different strokes for different folks I guess.
sorry to hear you having a hard time and running into jerks.
At least I have some goods news!! Aussie is back from the war and I'm not letting him go again.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> It was a bit of a shock to tell you the truth.
He came walking across to me with that cheeky grin on his face and all I could do was stare at him & remember to try & keep smiling. His left eye is bandaged , eyebrows look burned off but growing back, few scratches ….and hes walking on crutches. Chest is wrapped - 5 broken ribs left side, deep sort of vertical cut about 2 inches long all stitched about right under his left arm pit and his right leg - again - is all bandaged and had a leg frame on it……. Has a cut running from the outside of his right ankle up and around to the back thigh which is stitched and has internal sutures. I'm not sure what I expected but I didn't rally think he was banged up like this. Yes shock would be a good way to describe it. But thank God hes alive and THAT is all that matters. Its not serious that’s the important thing too isnt it? I think it must hurt like hell though. He asked me tonight how you were going and if you had been playing any good pubs so I hope you have because I told him you did!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I haven't been online as much lately so haven't been to I'ville and must have missed the Breaking News. . . congratulations, sweetheart!!! How happy we all are for you and Aussie! What wonderful, wonderful news -- thank you so much for sharing it.
SLH, I did some checking. I don't think "The Rainbow Connection" has ever been done justice. Willie's version is pretty good, but...
Hey, now. I know you're not making fun of my tag line, are you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm usually not into the whole "rainbows & flowers & unicorns" thing, but something about this song has always spoken to me, you know? Besides, I've always loved the stories of the Sailors who encountered the Sirens, and the gutsy captain who had himself lashed to the mast in order to hear their call. Romance and danger on the high seas, and all that. Too cool.
Gray, you'll know how to interact with the Sparrow when the time comes. Don't sweat it; let your conscience be your guide. It hasn't failed you thus far.
Is your house really 80 years old? Wow! Are you just plastering cracks or repainting to suit your new status, your new life, the new Graycloud? Nothing too somber I hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
slh
PS: Sarah McLachlan's Rainbow Connection is actually pretty darn good. My kids love it . . . much better than old Kermit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
My house is a 1924 bungalow. I'm restoring, which is a whole mess of trouble beyond freshening up. I'm making this house mine.
I think you're right... I'm not going to sweat possible future interaction with sparrow much, since it's unlikely anyway.
This girl was my life. We were the absolute best of friends. This wasn't one of those marriages where things gradually deteriorated to the point where having her gone was a relief. It was an explosion. There were a few months of rockiness, a few months of too much separation, and suddenly there was a knife between my shoulder blades.
I'm no big Sarah McLachlan fan. She never quite did it for me. I listened to her version though, and it's okay. I know what you mean about the rainbows-and-unicorns stuff. There's just something off-the-charts sweet about that tune.
SLH, I hope the horsies are treating you well. Do you really ride them on the beach? Uhhh, was there or was there not a movie where a girl gets stranded on an island with a horse?
Sweet-ums, I'm so sorry I brought up any heartrending memories for you right now, with my tag line. . .I sung it to my babies, too, and just wasn't thinking when I put it up here. I seem to have a knack for picking "bad" ones lately. . . I took out GC with Coldplay, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.
I should reinstate my self-imposed edict to never use lyrics to songs.
Please forgive me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I am excited about the new Coldplay cd. I just read these lyrics from Square One:
You're in control Is there anywhere you wanna go? You're in control Is there anything you wanna know? The future's for discovering The space in which you travel in
From the top of your first page To the end of the last page From the start in your own way You just want Somebody listening to what you say It doesn't matter who you are It doesn't matter who you are
I said I'm on the top, I can't get back Whoa, whoa, whoa Whoa, whoa, whoa
The first line in your first page To the end of the last page That you... From the start in your own way You just want Somebody listening to what you say It doesn't matter who you are It doesn't matter who you are
You just want Somebody listening to what you say Oh, you just want Somebody listening to what you say It doesn't matter who you are It doesn't matter who you are
Is there anybody out there who Is lost and hurt and lonely too? They're bleeding all the colors into one And a few come undone As if you've been run through Some catapult who fired you You wonder if your chance will ever come Or if you're stuck in square one.
And the hardest part Was letting go, not taking part was the hardest part And the strangest thing was waiting for that bell to ring It was the strangest start
I could feel it go down Bittersweet I could taste in my mouth Silver line in the cloud Oh and I wish that I could work it out
And the hardest part was letting go, not taking part You really broke my heart, oh And I tried to sing But I couldn't think of anything And that was the hardest part of all
I could feel it go down You left the sweetest taste in my mouth The silver line in the cloud Oh and I, oh and I, I wonder what it's all about I wonder what it's all about
Everything I know is wrong Everything I do, it just comes undone And everything is torn apart And thats the hardest part, that's the hardest part Yeah that's the hardest part, that's the hardest part
Odd how such a strange and horrible event passes with no fanfare. It's so ordinary.
I think that's how it usually is, for people like us.
Are you disconcerted because you didn't feel as much as you thought you should?
Just because you didn't bawl bitterly over the papers as you signed them didn't mean that your marriage was any less real to you or that you didn't try as hard as you did to keep it together. You did, you truly did, even when it hurt like hell to implement Plan B and all that it entailed.
Gray, most of your grieving has already been done.
Will you always be GrayCloud? Will you one day be SilverLining?
Quote: ================================ Today I will cook my dinner on the grill and eat it with my hands, saying over and over again: "Chee-kann. Guuuud!" ================================
That's a good start. Go and get one of those voodoo charms with a feather and a chickens foot, and wave it over the chicken while you say those words.
If it gets up and walks or clucks, then you have a new career to fall back on!
I don't feel guilty for not being more heartbroken at the signing. I'm sick of being heartbroken.
My only regret from this past year was that I had to hurt the sparrow. When I cut her out of my life, I was tough. I didn't cry. But she did. I'm sorry for hurting her that day. But I had to. Her cold indifference and open betrayal were killing me.
I don't know if she'll ever understand what it felt like. I'm sure she doesn't now. I don't even think she gets why I won't have any contact with her. She probably thinks I'm stubborn and pissy. The fact is, she's made herself my enemy. I don't email casually with my enemies. It's hard enough not to hate them.
My only regret from this past year was that I had to hurt the sparrow. When I cut her out of my life, I was tough. I didn't cry. But she did. I'm sorry for hurting her that day. But I had to. Her cold indifference and open betrayal were killing me.
Are you referring to your PBL? Or the subsequent phone call?
I read it too, you know. Your letter. It was phenomenal. You did what you had to. I know you know all this. . .but Gray, you dun good. Really. She's only reaped what she herself sowed, in regards to her treatment of you, bay.
You handled yourself, throughout this entire ordeal, with honor and class and dignity that few could lay claim to. And you compromised nothing.
We've come a long way GC, a ways to go yet, but a long way none the less.
Your gauge of how you feel about signing may be a little slow on the take and may not register for a bit. Then again, maybe the disengagement is progressing well and you are ready for this.
I hope you rediscover a sense of adventure about your life. I wish I could sit down over a cold one with you 5 years from now to compare notes and observe your perspective looking back on this ordeal. Maybe you will see this as a reawakening of sorts. I am confident GC will be in a good place then because he will have choosen to be.
When will things be finalized? How does it work down south of the border? I'm sure I'm but a few weeks behind you. I've not heard anything from my lawyer so I assume the machine is chugging along undisturbed shredding our marriage in silence.
I'm getting ready to be a single man. Tweaking the wardrobe, engaging my career in new ways, painting some rooms, putting up the obligatory black velvet paintings, you know...the regular stuff. Right now....as we speak (type)...I'm OK, I’m really OK. Hope you are too.
binder wrote: . . .putting up the obligatory black velvet paintings. . .
LOL Binder! You mean the Elvis ones your STBXW asked you to throw out but you hid for years anyhow? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Lo, the stupid, wagon-wheel, Roy Rogers, garage sale COFFEE TABLE!
Oh, wait, I was projecting again. Sorry, Binder. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm OK, I’m really OK.
You really, Binder? I haven't heard much from you, I mean personally, lately, and I usually try to read up on names I recognize. Maybe I've just been missing those posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Gray, how [color:"red"]you [/color] doin' this mornin'?
Before I start... last night I went to see Neko Case. Over and over, she made me tear up and shiver. How can I say this without it sounding dumb? There's something about her voice, just the timbre of it, that seems to contain the truth.
She did a few songs from her next record, including one she announced as "a really sad song about sparrows", which I didn't catch all the words, but of course I made the obvious connection. I think the song is about sparrows venturing into dangerous places.
Binder, I have, as J put it a few weeks back, green lights on in my eyes.
Something I've got from this experience... I think it will be harder for me to get so caught up in everyday life that I forget what's important. If that makes any sense.
I think my D will be finished in a couple of weeks.
Velvet paintings! Haw! I'm thinking maybe tiger stripes for the walls of my room.
I need clothes too. Now if only I could manage the will to go (shudder) shopping.
Good grief Graycloud, that was quick. (I smile as I type)
Fix your house, Play music, Date girls.
Sounds like a good summer.
SLH, I was going to comment on your post of awhile ago, but there is no way I can keep up on this thread. (shakes head)
It is very difficult to cope with emotions even when we understand why things are the way they are. Emotions just are. I found myself wishing that your H will help AS MUCH AS HE CAN WHEN HE IS WITH YOU. IT could make a big difference.
Perhaps he does, I hope so. If not, train him. JL did a post once on teaching our spouse about meeting our needs. Perhaps I can find it. Discussion on fear, training spouse It's long, but I think it may help you if you will read it all the way through. JL's part starts near the bottom of the first page. I don't think all of it aplies, but I think you can get some good stuff from it if you read it all.
1. They do like you. . .2. There are reasons . . 3. I'll let SLH list them, so you understand how Girls think. . .4. You will need to know this.
I love how you capiltalized "Girls", SS. Like we're some unfamiliar outlander, a Sassenach. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I've never had the privledge of meeting Gray, as Weaver has. She'd probably be far more adept at recounting Gray's charmingly many attributes. But I'll try, as what I've seen of GC, I've come to know & love.
Disclaimer: these are my impressions and my impressions only. Do not apply to any and all women and/or to mucus membranes. Not for inhalation. Do not try at home without DIRECT supervision of someone who is looking out for your best interests. (I can't always come up with good things to say about myself when alone, lol!)
Alrighty, Gray, [color:"purple"] : cracking knuckles, flexing fingers in preparation:[/color] where shall I begin? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
A ladies' first impression, IRL, (and most obvious) . . . and forgive me for sounding like a lustful she-Klingon -- but you're a good-looking laddie. . . oh, yes! Attractive but not in the haut monde sense, making you more approachable, appealing, real. There may be the exceptions to this rule: women who want something that is more remote and unattainable, a veritable Adonis. . . but is this the kind of woman that you would want?
You're sensitive. Women love that stuff. Well, most women do, anyway. I do. Your posts are thoughtful, well-written, and intelligent without being overly sappy or too saccharine. You seem to be in touch with your emotions. . . better in fact than I myself have been as of late, and many other people I know and come in contact with on a daily basis. You're not afraid to say how you feel, but you temper your emotions with a diplomatic tougue before they reach air (or keyboard). Discipline? Consideration? Or a disinclination to reveal too much? No matter, really, it is a exercise I wish I could master.
Aaaahhh, those morals, I love those morals! Integrity. Grace. Honor. Steadfastedness. Persistance. Self-Control. Gray, do you know how few men possess these very traits nowdays? No, I am not saying you are a robot, quite the opposite. You are human, undeniabley so. You were hemorrhaging inside. And yet you did what you had to do, to try to save what was most important to you, your marriage. It was grueling, wasn't it? No one ever said it would be easy. . . and yet you continued onward, diligent and ever-hopeful. Yes, you protected yourself. But you never compromised who you were, truly, inside throughout this entire ordeal. You stood firm, strong, resolute. Were you angry? Sure! Bitter? Hell yeah! Wanted to exact revenge? Perhaps so. I know I would have allowed myself the dirty, guilty secret of planning to, even though I would never follow through on such a thing. But you never did seek "reparations", Gray. Not once. And thoughts, though they can become a man :: tipping hat to Descartes :: generally do not harm us if only fleeting and singular in nature.
Poetry lives in your soul, pure and resonant and good, and it can't be thwarted by your past experiences. It dwells there permanantly, not to be dislodged by time or space or occassion or event. Music is but one of your outlets; you have others. You are genuine and forgiving and sanguine. You could be stirred to passion were the circumstances right. You embrace life, Gray. Even now.
Also, you are compassionate, funny, loyal, slow to judge, kind, tactful. . . and I'm not sure. . . but I'll bet you're even housebroken, too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I could go on about the others (and yes, there are more, lol), but I suspect you have some inkling of their worth to you: Mr. Music Man and a woman's appreciation for your art (are Groupies sane these days?), a Recovering BS -- and let's put a big exclamation mark here -- you now possess these amazing tools to assist and guide you in any new relationship, and you're a generally great guy.
I still feel like I am leaving something out. . . it will hit me over the head as I am dozing off tonight or something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Still, quite a list, and like I said, I've never met you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I guess, after this, the big question here will be,
What do you want, dear GrayCloud? The world is your oyster.
SS may be a lot of things, but he's NO FOOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL!
Alright, Mr. Evasive, it is late so I am letting you off this one tonight. But I find it hard to believe you'd welcome the amourous attentions of just any old Hoochie Momma. . . unless I read you wrong? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Oh, good grief, was I totally off-base with that entire list LOL!?
Well, gc, imagine my surprise when I tried 2 put "Remember" in my sigline and got the message "Your signature is 2long!" Well, they spell it differenlty, but I thought it was pretty funny. Heck no, my sigline isn't 2long, *I'm* 2long!
Oh, wait, now do I get to make a list of all the BAD thing about GC? All the little bothersome things I've noticed and never commented on? All his irritating quirks and idiosyncrisies???????? No one said I could do THAT, too!!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I love how you capiltalized "Girls", SS. Like we're some unfamiliar outlander, a Sassenach. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It's in caps because Girls are important. Even I know that.
LOL, [color:"purple"] SS. [/color] You never were one of those guys who tugged on schoolgirls' pigtails, were you? You and I would have been good friends, unless, of course, you thought I had cooties. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Thank you so much for the link you enclosed . . . especially for the time it took you to locate it and send it along. . . I really appreaciate it, SS. It was something I needed to read, and you would be surprised how much of it I found beneficial to my sitch. Despite the fact there have been no As in our marriage (and yes, I read between the lines at what you may've been pointing to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), there is an awful lot of resentment and also quite a load of unfulfilled ENs every day. For the first time in my life I can honestly feel what would enable a person to have an affair -- not that there is ever an excuse for one, please don't minsunderstand. If you have a moment, would you please read my last thread? It's as long as the one you suggested but if you have a moment I would really value your insight:
Some great advice was given but we all know that your sensitive soul, SS, may have some additional acumen : great big smile :. I need to say again that my H is easily working 14+ hours a day, plus some weekends, and comes home literally dead to the world, so my asking for help with things sometimes reeks of selfishness . . . he just can't do it, physically. Most weekends are spent just trying to catch up with the myraid things that need to be done in order to raise a family in an older house. You would think I would know all of this and be sympathetic, but I do find that my needs are never being met in the rush, and I am becoming more and more resentful.
End slh gripe. . .
Binder exclaims girlishly:
Quote
Ooooohhhhh..... Isn't Gray cloud wonderful! Isn't he intelligent....moral....not too saccharine????(Aspartame?)
Isn't he good looking, graceful, honorable....blah blah blah.
Aaaaawwwwwww, [color:"purple"]Binder, 2long. . . [/color]you poor dahlins'; I see what's goin' on here. . . do you want me to write one about each of y'all, too? [color:"purple"] 2long,[/color] I know where your thread is; I've been reading it for weeks now, even though I haven't had much to offer in the way of advice. I can post your list there ASAP if you like for all to see. : guffaw : What would Pepper say? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You either, [color:"purple"]Binder[/color]; now don't tempt me, I can post yours on the OM thread I just came across. :wicked grin: Get me started on MORALS, you two. . . (St. Bindus & St. Lingerus!)
You are both fantastic guys and i would thoroughly enjoy humiliating you with many, MANY paragraphs of heartfelt and genuine adulation. [color:"red"] Mmmmwwhhaaaa hhhaaaa hhaaaa haaaaa![/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
On to other things. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
When is [color:"purple"] Weaver [/color] getting back? I am really missing her and hoping all is well.
[color:"purple"] Gray,[/color] you okay today?
Where's [color:"purple"] Faithful[/color] been? I know she's been feeling down latley. Has anyone heard from her lately?
slh : off to begin her lists. . . devious chuckle :
Glad you're doing okay. Yeah, I'ville has been rather. . . rambunctious lately. NCW & Jelly & Tama are all on a roll. I haven't checked in today, too easy to get sucked in and I have too much to do today, lol.
Want to email you later about our earlier AD discussion. Chores, first!
Many of my friends growing up were girls - from grade school - through HS. I would play dolls with them and so on. As far as friends, it was all the same to me. That is, as far as friends went.
I have read your thread........and am thinking. At the end, you say things are better. That can change daily. That fact that you asked me to read means you worry for long term.
It looks like the root is the long hours. Your H can do it, but at great cost. If you knew now that the cost WOULD BE your marriage, what would you do differently?
Every one needs some personal time to be emotionally healthy. Time alone, time to unwind, time to let the brain cells rest.
Your H doesn't even have time for that, let alone for you.
You know all of that already, but needs are EMOTIONAL, and they don't respond well to logic. You know, but it doesn't matter that you know, the needs are still there.
In order to function, your H needs to put his needs first. The order is:
1. Himself 2. The marriage 3. The family
We can help no one when we are low ourselves. To help someone that is low requires that we be on higher ground than they are. For your H to do what he does (work long hours) requires that he withdraw to an extent from other things so that he can continue to work as he does.
Now, this is how it looks to me - and I am not an expert.
Must go for now. See you later.
Think on that question - if you knew that the marriage would fail if he continues to work these hours, what would you do?
SS, thanks for looking at it at all. I know not every one abounds in time, and I appreciate your consideration.
I agree with the basis of what you've said, about the hours. We are hoping it is temporary. But the stress levels, my God. . .he has turned into the guy who does anything and everything for everyone at work because no one else can -- from Computer Tech to Printer HandyMan to Machinist to Drafter to Engineer (gee, his actual job) and even the boss' confidant. At BOTH jobs. He really feels the pressure, the bosses are griping about deadlines and how HE is the key to the company being successful (both small co.s), and his rearing (strict southern Catholic upbringing; I mean no offense to anyone but Catholicism has changed a good bit from what he calls "the Dark Ages", when Nuns would crack his knuckles repeatedly with a ruler for for such nefarious misbehaviours as bad handwriting, lol) has left him with a guilt complex and the urge to save the world, at any cost, LOL. "Everyone has to be happy", "Can't let anyone down" la la la la. Just wish he felt that way about US.
When I ask him to lower the boom, just a bit, he insists he is working so darn hard so that his company will reward him for his hours, time and support when they begin receiving more contracts. I understand and respect this. . .I just. . . I just. . .
I cannot believe I am a loss for words here. :: sarcastically :: Yes, Me. I guess I just want to stand up and yell, What about Me???
You're right, he has NO time to himself. None. Nada. Zilch. Believe me, I *do* encourage it (a night out with his friends, flying, etc) but he never takes me up on it. Don't ask me why. You can bet the moment he offers it to me, I am at the beach riding my horse!
Thanks again for your time SS. If you have anything to add, you can do so on the aforementioned thread, so the noble Gray doesn't kick me (or us) out for TJ'ing.
:: falling on knees, hands clasped before me, lips trembling in humility :: Have mercy, Gray!
I knew you never tugged pigtails. Doesn't seem like "you" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SLH... is your H a "fixer"? Sometimes we fixers overestimate our power to make things right all over the place, and we become guilty of benign neglect.
It's big pitfall that many of us fall into, compromising the pleasure of our journey for the sake of its destination. It's a lame cliche, and it could not be more true. You and your H have a destination you seek, and you're gritting your teeth and squeezing your eyes shut and grinding away in anticipation of that destination.
It's good to work hard and pay dues. But sometimes you get so caught up in all that, that your life goes out of balance, and you're paying too many dues and postponing too many of life's joys. And if you don't watch out, suddenly you're old. The only way to change that is to want to put things back into balance.
Do you like Tom Waits? I do. Mule Variations is a masterpiece. If you like his whiskey-soaked howling, and who wouldn't, it's a great record to have around.
And since this is my thread...
Two nights ago, after seeing a concert, it stormed. I got maybe four hours' sleep.
Last night, I did not sleep one wink.
I was thinking about forgiveness. I read about South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, I believe the most honorable thing I've ever heard of a nation doing officially. A miracle.
I thought about my position on forgiveness, which until now has been that there is no real forgiveness without reconciliation. That it should have another name.
I'm beginning to see forgiveness as having degrees.
The thing I'm trying to understand... is how to forgive the sparrow without pardoning her, and without ever having any reconciliation or resolution, and without her seeking my forgiveness. Who would live like this?
I still have trouble distinguishing between forgiving her and excusing her for what she's done. How could I excuse her? She's done something horrible, something no decent person should ever dream of, and she isn't sorry. And we probably will not be reconciled, ever. I mean to avoid having anything to do with her, ever.
I feel horrible about that. She sent an email about something she wanted a few weeks ago. I tried to delete it without even reading the subject line. I felt like a stubborn a-hole for doing that, but any communication that comes from her hurts me. She's batted 1000 on that score for a year now.
I can't fit this puzzle together. I sat up all night last night trying. Once in a while I'd shut my eyes and try to sleep, but it was no good. The birds started to chatter, and I still puzzled. The sky lit up outside my windows, and I puzzled. I reached that state of vague despair you get when you stay up all night and you know you've spoiled the next day. Finally, I hung it up when my radio turned on, and I got up and went to work. Actually accomplished a ton today.
I've still got this here puzzle all spread out in front of me, and the pieces still don't fit.
Today was the anniversary of the day she told me she wanted to get divorced.
SLH, I thought about posting on Gray's thread (to you) on the way home from work last night. Though I am (fairly) sure he doesnt' care, it WOULD be best to do it on yours.
Early in my time at MB, it was common for 4 or 5 good friends to share a thread. By that I mean someone started it, and it would end up that a small group would use it among them selves, all working on their own problems, however different they might be. People floated in and out giving advice but the core remainded. I have kinda come to see Grays thread as this type. (I am giving you my thought processes - what I realized as I laughed while I read your intreaty to Gray not to be upset at my thread jack.)
Anyway, I have tons more to say to you - we'll see how the time goes at work today.
So much to do, so little time. You would know it as well as any, better than most.
Graycloud, I am giving you this link because I think there is something in it for you. The story is different, but the feelings are the same. Make sure you read part two.
If time permits, please do pass on some advice. If it doesn't, please know I do understand.
I'm sorry I didn't understand the policies & protocol of the MB forum, LOL. I just saw the title of this thread and didn't want GC mad at me, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
This morning I woke up to a printout sitting in the tray of my printer, still warm. H (who is in the Gulf of Mexico right now, using a computer to measure temperatures and strains at the bottom of the ocean) had remotely printed out the 8 pages for The Marriage Builders Home Study Courses. This was nothing that we had ever discussed, but it was welcome! It showed initiative and thoughtfulness on his part, and concern. I am only hoping that it is a reflection of his long-term commitment, and not the fact that he is missing me because he is away (which is so often the case when he is out of town).
Gray, you're right, the man is a fixer. And you hit our situation exactly on the head. We have been gritting our teeth and existing, but I miss living, you know? He must too. We need to get beyond this, together. We must.
He is supposed to return tonight, per Hurricane Arlene's threat. For the first time in a long time, I am really looking forward to it.
I'm sorry I didn't understand the policies & protocol of the MB forum, LOL. I just saw the title of this thread and didn't want GC mad at me,
Oh no, I was agreeing with you and I have posted on your other thread, but I was just kind of saying out loud why I went ahead and posted on Grays thread. It's not done as much now, but it used to be common. I took Gray's kindness for granted, and should have checked with him first.
SLH, late last night, when I posted about that anniversary, that was the first it had occurred to me. So no, I hadn't been dreading it.
Slept like a dead man.
Today, off work. I'm making my fireplace pretty. The bricks were painted white long ago. My many efforts to get the paint off have turned it to a hideous eyesore. But it will be an eyesore no more.
SLH, you and H will be fine, just not automatically.
Why would any of y'all worry about posting on my thread? Of course I don't care.
I was thinking about forgiveness. I read about South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, I believe the most honorable thing I've ever heard of a nation doing officially. A miracle.
I saw documentary years ago on this. There was a dramatic portion where an anguished man faced his wife's murderer. He told of his feelings when, in church, these thugs burst in and sprayed the congregation with bullets. He relayed in great detail his observations and feelings of his wife being struck by the bullets and dying as he watched helplessly. The man also was allowed to ask the murderer why he chose his wife to kill.
The murderer, through a translator I believe, coldly replied how there was not conscious decision, just a desire to kill borne out of rage/association or something like that.
The aggrieved man claimed forgiveness on the spot. The gesture was obviously wasted on this vacuous shell of a human who was simply exploiting the amnesty the program offered and by all rights really only deserved the quick end a contact wound that a small caliber handgun behind his ear would provide. The widower went on to exclaim his faith in God and how he realized that to move forward he must forgive and not allow the cycle of hate and vengeance to gain momentum. I knew watching that man I have a long way to go to even have that level of self actualization in sight.
I know you struggle with forgiving her who does not want it. I really don't think she has to even acknowledge it really. Does it not completely depend on your perspective and willingness to progress? If, one day, you realize you are more fulfilled, happier, maybe even in a better relationship, will you still struggle with this?
I don't really think it's an issue. You've not denied your grieving and I know your will pass through those "levels" of forgiveness in due time. Heck....maybe I will too.
In the meantime I simply pray she develops a chronic and particularly painful lower intestinal disorder characterized by severe cramping and gas.
In the meantime I simply pray she develops a chronic and particularly painful lower intestinal disorder characterized by severe cramping and gas
Binder, this just struck me as funny. I hope you get to the point of forgiving her, not for her but for your sake. I just told my stbx today that I forgive him. It had struck me a few days ago and I had to roll it around in my mouth for a while to see if it was momentary or true and surprisingly...it is true. He is forgiven. I am still broken and have a long way to go in my own healing but at least I can leave that burning behind me.
The widower went on to exclaim his faith in God and how he realized that to move forward he must forgive and not allow the cycle of hate and vengeance to gain momentum. I knew watching that man I have a long way to go to even have that level of self actualization in sight.
This documentary. . . perhaps on PBS?. . . I think I saw it too. One of the most humbling things I've seen in my life.
Today I finished repairing the base plaster in one of my bedrooms. Having just sat with my thumb up my butt for a year, unable to work on the restoration, this is gigantic. Within a week, the room will be ready for paint, though the trim won't be back up for a good stretch after that.
Earlier today, I spent a few hours running around getting supplies and more mundane stuff like toothpaste. Seeing all the women out there in the world when I'm all alone freaks me out. Think I'll set up an appointment with my IC. Today I had one of those horrible pangs of grief that used to come with nearly every breath. Just that feeling of total rejection, ouch.
I feel excellent though, now. I'm exhausted, but accomplished something good today. This house is going to be a jewel. Just give me a few years...
You have done some really good posts helping others. I think I heard you say once that you didn't feel like giving advice because your M was failing.
One of the reasons I wanted SLH to do the talking about your strong points is that you needed to hear it from a Girl.
You KNOW she wasn't making it up. You KNOW she was givng her honest opinion.
You also know she's no fool, and could see past a big faker. (if one existed)
I didn't realize that some of this would take you so long. Perhaps I underestimated how much it affected you. Maybe you are too good at playing the strong silent type.
As I thought over the weekend about the ~Puzzle Puzzle~ and your sleepless nights, I realize I it was/is still haunting your thoughts.
You may be sick of this by now, but it is a symbol of my faith in your ability.
As I thought over the weekend about the ~Puzzle Puzzle~ and your sleepless nights, I realize I it was/is still haunting your thoughts.
Speaking with a friend last night, I put it to her like this: I'm still troubled by what my wife has done. I don't see that changing. But SS, I'm not in the same state I was in two months ago. Weeks ago, something changed.
Like the other night, when I didn't sleep... I was not in anguish. Don't get that any more, exactly. I spent that night lying on my bed, calmly, just thinking about big subjects, like forgiveness and death. I was a little frustrated that I couldn't sleep, but not especially. Haunted? Yes, but not like before. Before, I was in agony, thinking, what happened? Now my thoughts fall more into the what now? category.
FF, I hope you are doing well today, you seem to be.
I love to sing but only with the windows rolled up in the car LOL. Really off key but enthusiastic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Doing ok today, thanks. I called my doc for an increase to my AD's. My first step to taking care of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I would love to hear the faith building stories as well. Come on Gray, let's get this campfire burning! Music !!!!
I'm repairing the plaster in my bedroom. I love the smell of fresh plaster. My room doesn't smell like it's in an 80-year-old house. It smells clean and new. I'd like to bottle that smell. Okay that's tweaked. Who would bottle the smell of plaster? Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I love the smell of sanded floors and fresh polyurethane!! DS8's room needs some plaster work too. When can you get here, or where can I find the instructions on how to mix it properly?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I do sing but I had to tell Jelly I didn't or she wouldn't let me stay in Idiotville <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hmmm. . . Something Gaelic? Something folksy?
Gray, you are all of those things I wrote about you and more. I wish I knew someone up there for you. You're a wonderful, wonderful guy. And -- dare I say it, after the ribbing we took fro 2L & Binder. . . I don't know how appropriate this is, so please yank out the MB Protocol Scroll and beat me with it if necessary, but if I were single, you're the kind of guy I'd look for.
Just on a motorcycle. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Was that snigger one of sheer terror or flattery? I couldn't tell. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Bring on the Marshmellows! And beef jerky! I love beef jerky!
Kimmy-girl! I love gospel too! (Can't believe I didn't think of it!) You and I were raised down south, that's why! Nothing like driving by those great gospel churches with their doors flung open and all inside singing hallelujah!
My kiddos are swimming in their chintzy pool and I'm trying to figure out what's for supper. But we can pretend, huh?
How you been, sweetheart? I've been missing you tons.
>My kiddos are swimming in their chintzy pool and I'm trying to figure out what's for supper. But we can pretend, huh?
How you been, sweetheart? I've been missing you tons.
I gave my kids a treat for dinner. They've been in the wader all day...so I brought the plates out to our picnic table. They were thrilled. We had baked-fried chicken (I soaked it in ceasar dressing then dredged it in flour, then baked it), veggie couscous and broccoli.
I'm just okay..under the circumstances. I miss my old life terribly...you know, the life b4 A, when life was simple and clean and good.
But, it's a blessed day when you have brown babies, a wading pool and lime sherbert for dessert, right?
I'll have one beer, but I'm gonna conk pretty soon... had a gig last night, and I'm sleep deprived.
Found out our next gig is the night Wilie Nelson and Bob Dylan are playing in town. So if I can get my lazy band to do a little work... we're gonna do "Time of the Preacher" from The Red Headed Stranger... pull up a log.
It was the time of the preacher When the story began Of the choice of a lady And the love of a man
How he loved her so dearly He went out of his mind When she left him for someone She'd left behind
And he cried like a baby He screamed like a panther in the middle of the night And he saddled his pony And he went for a ride
It was the time of the preacher In the year of '01 Now the preachin' is over And the lesson's begun
But he could not forgive her Though he tried and tried and tried And the halls of his memories Still echo her lies
He cried like a baby He screamed like a panther in the middle of the night And he saddled his pony And he went for a ride
It was the time of the preacher In the year of '01 Now the lesson is over And the killin's begun
It was the time of the preacher In the year of '01 And just when you think it's all over It's only begun
Did you ever check out that Peter Murphy song I got all excited about a few months back? I'm listening 2 it now. It's quite beautiful, and gets one's feet all a'motatin' if you know what I mean!
Peter Murphy: "I'll fall with your knife"
"To the crowd To the world You were so dry And with the token bird I made Sent it to fly right to your side With the broken wing you sailed Oh like winter in July A barren river wide I'll pray for the flood To wash on you It's here I'll be with you
Well if the birds can reach the sky To this land I'll be with you 'Til the sun bursts from your side With my hands I reach to you When you think your chance is passing by When you blow your moon away I'll bleed like the reed Fall with your knife It's here I'll be with you
Your last post sounds like something that would be printed in Penthouse Forum right after "I'm a young midwest college grad considered good looking by my friends"
I mean if I had ever read that.....ever.....never mind.
I'm in 2long.....and I did "steal" I'll fall with your knife off of WinMX after you had talked about it. Not bad.
Lately I seem to have a penchant for female folk singers and have listened to a lot of Lucinda Williams, Mary Gauthier and recently Kathleen Edwards. Good stuff.
2long - We have the marine layer here too. It's funny. My boys (20 and 23) had never seen real stars until we went camping up in the mountains several years ago. They were amazed.
Cool! Let me think about the female vocalists that are my faves a bit.
I'd never listened 2 "barenaked ladies" before I saw them on the Today show about a year ago. Then, I downloaded "For You":
"For You" - Barenaked Ladies
I have set aside everything I love I have saved everything else for you I cannot decide what this doubt's made of Though I thought over it through and through
In a book in a box high upon a shelf In a locked and guarded vault Are the things I keep only for myself It's your fate but it's not your fault
[CHORUS:] And for every useless reason I know There's a reason not to care If I hide myself wherever I go Am I ever really there?
There is nowhere else I would rather be, but I can't just be right here An enigma wrapped in a mystery, or a fool consumed by fear
[CHORUS]
I will give you all I could ever give Though it's less than you will need Could you just forget, if you can't forgive All the things I cannot concede
Listen here weather/programer/techy/thesis writing metrosexual.....I didn't use my shirt...I was using my silk camisole. And I'm only wearing that so I don't chafe in this humid weather.
Binder, if I see you use your shirt to protect your soft hands from those twist-offs one more time...
GC
Gc:
About a kagillion years ago (that's a technical term, denoting GREAT AGE), I was drinking with classmates in one of the hot pools at the hot springs in Saline Valley, CA - gadzooks, that must have been about 1983! - and my fingers got so pruny that even opening them damned Miller's cut me all up.
Didn't realize it until the next day...
...come 2 think of it, I didn't realize a lot of things until the next day!
2long....bare naked ladies are Canucks....I saw them here at the university bar years ago before they got big. A little stage about 6 inches off the ground in a room that held maybe 350 people. It was great...they're hilarious.
2long - We have the marine layer here too. It's funny. My boys (20 and 23) had never seen real stars until we went camping up in the mountains several years ago. They were amazed.
Hi believer!
If I had a "cloud filter" I'd get my scope out anyway!
And speaking of telescopes and OMD, here's an appropriate song! I remember when I got the LP (Vinyl!). I had a set of used Advent speakers (most amazing, I still recall), and we used 2 2rn the volume up and rattle the windows with this song! Most amazingly LOW, just barely audible I believe, base notes alive!
Orchestral Manouvers in the Dark, "Romance of the Telescope"
" See these arms that were broken, how they held you so. Never once did they fail you, they won't let you go.
We're just waiting looking skyward as the days come down. Someone promised there'd be answers, if we stayed around.
Over decades, now this romance has sustained us all. Never questioned, only giving what it made us for."
2long, good god, the jets must have got clogged from all the hair gel in that tub.
Metrosexual, Binder? Now I've been called lots of things, but... If you're referring to the tasteful decoration of my house... I had nothing to do with it.
Here's one for 2long. Woody Guthrie, popularized by Billy Bragg and Wilco.
I’d like to rest my heavy head tonight On a bed of california stars I’d like to lay my weary bones tonight On a bed of california stars
I’d love to feel your hand touching mine And tell me why I must keep working on Yes, I’d give my life to lay my head tonight On a bed of california stars
I’d like to dream my troubles all away On a bed of california stars Jump up from my starbed and make another day Underneath my california stars
They hang like grapes on vines that shine And warm the lovers glass like friendly wine So I’d give this world Just to dream a dream with you On our bed of california stars
One of my all-time favorite bands from the late 60's is from there. "The Collectors." Changed their name to "Chilliwack" around 1972, when I lost track of them.
I remember they had a song that was LONGER than "Inna Godda Davida" by about 3 minutes! Very cool, 2. I've quoted parts of it my sigline over the years! (gadz, it's been YEARS!). Called "What Love Suite."
I had a set of used Advent speakers (most amazing, I still recall),
Wanna buy mine? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I reconed the woofers and replaced both tweeters with good originals (orange cone) pulled out of somebody else's advents. ... couldn't bear to throw them away.
Chilliwack had a lot of airplay up here in the 70's as I recall. We have a "Canadian content rule" here where a percentage (now 35%) of all music on the radio must be Canadian. So we heard a lot of Chilliwack back then....and The Guess Who and whatnot.
Anyways guys....5:30 is only 6 hours away....I need sleep....don't throw your empties in the fire. G'nite.
Mine needed the rubber around the rims replaced, as it was all dry-rotted and falling off.
Of course, the fire solved that little problem. I found what was left of them in the pile of debris that the firemen tossed out on the ground in the back yard - mixed in with stuff like broken Macintosh Plus monitor glass and stuff like that.
I had a set of used Advent speakers (most amazing, I still recall),
Wanna buy mine? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I reconed the woofers and replaced both tweeters with good originals (orange cone) pulled out of somebody else's advents. ... couldn't bear to throw them away.
-AD
AD!!! *jls yelling really loudly and then shrilling*
In case you are worried, I promise to come back and look more closely at the undies, and chat. OR, you can bounce from thread to thread avoiding me, like AD!!!!
One of my favorite female vocalists is Kate Bush. No, really.
"Experiment IV"
We were working secretly for the military Our experiment in sound was nearly ready to begin We only know in theory what we are doing Music made for pleasure, music made to thrill It was music we were making here until
(chorus) They told us all they wanted Was a sound that could kill someone from a distance So we go ahead and the meters are over in the red It's a mistake in the making
From the painful cries of mothers to a terrifying scream We recorded it and put it into our machine
(chorus)
It could feel like falling in love It could feel so bad It could feel so good It could sing you to sleep But that dream is your enemy!!
We won't be there to be blamed We won't be there to snitch I just pray that someone there can hit the switch
I am very sorry 2long. I love ya and would love to chat. butI gotta get some rest.Early day 2moro with kids and horses!!! And work til 2:00 AM or later 2moro nite!!
Anyway, I just came over to let AD know that I was on to him!
Goodnite, I killed a buch of threads 2nite, but don't worry, I don't even do this right. They always seem to bounce back after I am gone!!!
There was this man, who I will call "Mr. b," who was visiting a new town on a business trip. Well, Mr. b finished his business a little early and went looking for a place to cut loose. He was walking along the strip and came across a biker bar. Intrigued, he went inside.
It was a standard, neo-typical biker bar, but something in the decor really piqued Mr. b's interest. Against the back wall was a mint-condition 1973 Harley Davidson touring bike. It was enshrined in a glass case on a mahogony dais. On the dais was a plaque with a simple inscription. For The Winner
Mr. b sauntered over to the bar to pose to the bartender the puropose of the bike and the plaque. The bartender looked Mr. b over with scrutiny.
"Son, you ain't man enough to worry about such things," was his response.
Mr. b, dejected, almost left, but instead screwed up his courage and replied "I'll decide what I am man enough for, I asked you should tell me."
The bartender, amuzed by this brazen lad, regaled the story of the bike.
"Well. The owner of the bar is a gambling man. Always has been. One night, he brought the bike in, case and all, and said the man who could complete his four challenges would win the bike as his reward. Sort of a modern day labors of Hercules."
"What are the challenges?" responded Mr. b.
"First, you have to drink a fifth of tequila in fifteen minutes without throwing up. Next, you have to take out our bouncer, Rollo, with one punch. The third challenge involves the pit-bull chained in the alley out back. The dog has an impacted wisdom tooth, and you have to get that tooth out with your bare hands. The last challenge involves the owners grandmother, who lives in an apartment over the bar. She hasn't had an orgasm in 15 years. You have to pleasure her. If you can do all that, you win the bike. But noone has been able to do it."
"Man, I can't leave without trying," responds Mr. b.
"You're funeral," says the bartender. And with that he opens a bottle of tequila and forcefully puts it on the bar.
Mr. b picks up the bottle and begins pulling and tugging on it. He chokes it down, just under the time limit.
With that, he reels accross the bar and approaches Rollo from behind. Tapping Rollo on the shoulder, Mr. b rares back with balled fist and catches Rollo on the "sweet spot" just as he turns. The Luck of the Irish is with him, as Rollo goes down hard. Out for the count.
Mr. b staggers out the back door into the alley. Such a din and cacaphony arises from the alley that Cerberus himself would shudder.
Bloody and shredded, Mr. b stumbles back in the door and exclaims "OK.... wherez duh ole lady wif duh wizzdum toof??!?!"
Jackie left on a cold dark night Tellin' me he'd be home Sailed the seas for a hundred years And leavin' me all alone
Now I've been dead for twenty years, I've been a'washing the sand with my ghostly tears Searching the shores for my Jackie oh
And I remember the day the young man came Said, "Your Jackie's gone he's been lost in the rain" And I ran to the beach and laid me down "You're all wrong'' I said, as he stared at the sand ''That man know that sea like the back of his hand, He'll be back sometime laughing at you''
Well I've been waiting all this time, For my man to come take his hand in mine And lead me away to unseen shores I've been washing the sand with my salty tears Searching the shore these long years And I'll walk the sea forever more
Till I find my Jackie oh Jackie oh Jackie oh Jackie oh
I need to sit by the fire and listen to music and enjoy some good company. Very bad day, possibly my M has finally come to an end. Waiting for jerkboy to call me back. Why oh why is it so hard for him to just answer my questions instead of skirting the issue? (sigh..hangs head) I just need some comfort food, anyone have brownies?
Let's round up all these unredeemed cheaters, pin their eyes open, and make them read MB posts so they can see how much pain they bring into the world.
You guys I am totally obsessed right now in my own misery so please forgive my self-centerednes, but do you think that maybe as AD has suggested I should take the low road, instead of the high road to get satisfaction, and maybe my property back?
I'm talking womans charm here. A slow long project, but I think I could do it. I think I could keep my own feelings at bay, long enough to *uck him like he did to me?
What say you all? I don't know if I want to go back to being the good guy and always getting the short end of the deal.
Would smoked chicken, tabouli and potato salads, homemade rolls, raw veggies for dipping and homemade chocolate filled cream puffs with white chocolate icing count as comfort food?
Oh yeah, and I've got beer in the fridge.
Any other takers? I've been in the kitchen for HOURS!
You know I love you more than I love my luggage, dearie. You and the knee biters are welcome any ole time.
You'd have to be an Academy winner to pull it off Weaver.
Don't sully your hands with his mess any more than you have to, baybee. You are too smart and too good and too kind and a whole bunch of other toos for that walking paramecium.
It's not who you are. It's not who you want to be - Mark 8:36
I hurt when you wanted to be loved so badly, and he hurt you instead.
I hurt when he scammed you for the property.
I hurt to hear you say things like you just did.
It's time to break the cycle.
Lets start planning, and working for your happiness.
You have short term goals, you were asking the right questions.
Now, how about the eternal goals.
You are worth more than an island, or a few years of beach camping. The whole world is out there - the whole universe.
We need to convert this fine sounding stuff in to day to day happiness for you. It's not just theory.
Remember when you were so happy that you helped P improve her grades? There is a guy out there that will do that for you emotionally, and you for him. You need to start looking for him - and leave thoughts of Dan behind.
Eternal Goals - Eternal Life Eternal Happpiness
Look at things a little differently. Plan accordinly.
Oh boy do I know how you feel. I don't mean just that I uderstand being angry. I mean I know how you feel.
Many sources you trust will say no, don't do this. Immediately. Without even pausing to think about it. But something in you says you should. It's the part that wants to be a not-to-be-effed with woman. Wants small, mean, selfish people to be warned. And wants weaver to know she is safe from them.
NCW started a thread asking about pride as a deadly sin the other day.
I like Sinead, but sparrow and the tinman bonded over her. Car4love's daughter told her how they rode in sparrow's car to go see the tinman's creepy family and sang along with Sinead CDs. Blech.
One night the sparrow sat next to me in front of the fireplace with "The Last Day of Our Acquaintance" playing, boo-hooing over ending her affair, and for all the world expecting me to be into it.
She even suggested that my band learn to cover it.
Yech. Just thinking of it, I need to shower and wash off with bleach.
But not this song. This song is about the late 80s and going to Dallas to club with girlfriends and singing on the road and being sad over boy's stupidity. Really and truly.
Sparrow will NOT sully it for me...and she shouldn't 4 you, m'dear. You cannot, WILLNOT allow her to trigger THIS song....I'll beat you before you will.
Scuse me! Pain & beer talkin.
Please don't let HER mess this song up for me....please???? I already can't listen to Tejano anymore.
hey, that's one of my ol' pepper logs - 6" diameter x 18" long, built 2 last 4 hours (and I AIN'T seeking immediate medical help if I'm right and it does!!).
For weaver, if she's reading here (I hope she is!):
Tonio K., "Living Doll"
"She was looking good She was a beautiful girl From a tenth generation American dream world. To look at her you'd never guess That she could hurt so bad in such a beautiful dress
'Cause
1. She had the perfect smile 2. She'd been the perfect child 3. She looked as if she had it all
She was a living doll!
She'd been looking around for a new situation Beyond sex and short-term stimulation. 'Cause everyone she'd ever known Had treated her like something they owned,
So
1. She played the little girl 2. She was afraid of the whole wide world 3. She felt so helpless and so small
She was a living doll!
She'd never been given a minute of love Unless she met the conditions. And it made her so mad that her heart froze up And the pain turned into a prison.
It was a miracle when she came to life When true love cut through the pain like a knife. Now when the coast is clear and the past is buried Who knows - she might even get married.
1. She kinda met this guy 2. He ain't perfect but he's alright 3. Now she can't wait for him to call 4. He kinda likes her too 5. She ain't perfect but he says she'll do 6. He keeps her picture on the wall
Gray is juust barely here... workin' on Time of the Preacher a bit... too tired to accomplish much, and playing bar chords on my dad's '63 Martin (frets by the nut are worn down to NOTHING) is giving me hand cramps. Need to toughen up there.
What can I say? There's not much room on this here ole' log. My butt's gotten bigger sittin' around eating Marshmellows!
Surly, huh? I think you're handling things beautifully. Surly you may feel but who wouldn't after your interaction with the Righteous Hypocritical ILs tonight? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> You're a good guy, Binder.
Love the music tonight, 2Long, but can't say I've ever heard it. What kind is it?
Bring along your telescope? I need a new star to wish on.
Tonio K could be a little raw at times. Heck, a lot raw!
I only had one of his albums (vinyl, sometime in the early 80's). I've never heard that song, and I hope it's as beautiful as it reads, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not.
One of my favorites of his, ...if i can find it on the internet, was "Futt Futt Futt". Very silly!
Gray, you wimp. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You talked them into playing it, then? (TotP)
You guys looked like you were having a good time last night. I was around but didn't want to barge in on your boys-only club. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
So I just skulked around in the dark behind the bushes and listened to you y'all say "Underwear", lol. Or was that JLS?
And someone was shrieking like a shrew. . . (grin)
Is there any beer left? Beer is an excellent source of alcohol!
I'm going to cope through beer....an oft underrated strategy. I'm not an alcoholic you see....alcoholics go to meetings. And those meetings are for quitters!!
Howzabout a can this time....the caps are playing havoc with these "soft hands". (quoting the met....never mind)
[Innovator in the art of collage, part-time composer, and full-time poet/archaeologist Kurt Schwitters petitioned for something he referred to as the Merz Stage. This was to be, conservatively, life enacted before a paying audience. Nothing much would happen on stage; everything would (sooner or later) happen on stage. Among the things Kurt wrote into the "soundtrack" of his play were sewing machines singing and an organ that played the notes futt, futt, and futt.]
Flannel shirts, long johns, a toque and sorel boots...that's what all us Canadians wear.
This stuff...if your are inquiring about the nectar of the gods with which we imbibe, is called Traditional Ale and is brewed by a local company called Big Rock, which, BTW, draws it's water from a mountain creek just west of my cabin.
I'm out...another. You should have one too, I start to look pretty darn good and my jokes get better with the more beer you consume.
I was born in california In the u.s.s. of a. I was born in california In the u.s.s. of a. I was never supposed to know a moment of unhappiness in my life Somehow it didn't work out that way
I was born back in the fifties I was born and raised to win I was born back in the fifties I was born and raised to win We had beaten back the darkness Somehow the darkness snuck back in
I went lookin' for a lover But i did not know the rules I went lookin' for a lover Like a young man's got to do (But i did not know the rules) I made six wrong turns and nearly died The seventh time i made it through (Now i'm gonna play the suburban blues)
If i ever get to heaven Which i hope i'm gonna do If i ever get to heaven Which i'm pretty sure i'm gonna do I'm gonna walk up to the boss man and say: "I couldn't believe some of the things that went on down there I couldn't believe some of the things i myself wound up involved in down there I couldn't believe some of the things some of my friends wound up involved In down there, and finally convinced me to get involved in with them I couldn't believe some of the things some of the people took down there and did down there I couldn't believe some of the things i saw on television down there But lord, i always believed in you"
Another? I would love another but I fear for the delicate constitution of my eardums if our beloved 2Long doesn't lower the boom. I will be having Futt! Futt! nightmares. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
If I'm going to have to listen to that all night, I need something stronger! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Where are my ear plugs???
:: slh retreating to her tent to rummage for something to cover ears. Ah-ha! -- a bra tied under the chin will work just peachy, the cups stuffed with socks and well-placed over the ears ::
Victoria would faint dead away. . . Beloved turquoise satin masterpiece crowning my cranium like a loony granny she-devil with shimmery blue horns. Hardly what ole Victoria had in mind.
Can we go fishing tomorrow? Maybe I can craft this puppy into a net of sorts! Man, I always wanted to be McGyver. . .
Okay, uh, so, now that I'm alone and sleepless again... I'll complain a little.
Every time I try to write songs they wind up being about my stupid wife.
Every time I feel lonesome it reminds me I've been cheated.
Sometimes, when I eat dinner by myself, I just wanna throw the plate across the room and leave the mess to dry up and turn nasty where it lands.
I see the couples on the street outside my house, so many of them, walking their dogs, walking their babies, or just strolling together, and it feels like I'll be alone forever.
Women here have told me I'll be snapped up quick. HA! I go out whenever I get the chance, and the band plays out often nowadays. I'm outgoing and approachable, yet I don't meet anyone new. Women out there are so damned guarded.
Will I remain so caught up in my own business that my thoughts are always turned inward?
Sparrow stretched this out just long enough so I'll be too tied up working on the house (a financial necessity) to do much of anything else this summer. Thanks, you thoughtless b***h. Thanks for being gutless, for holding out and stupidly hoping that I, the most principled and patient man you know, who told you in a clear, certain voice that I would not help you divorce me... thanks for expecting me of all people to get fed up and do your dirty work for you. Thanks for fighting so hard for all the cash you could get, so you can throw our money at that nasty little hunchbacked, pot-bellied pipsqueak you've shacked up with, leaving me in a season of servitude. That's two summers you've ruined for me.
Aaaaah, a little relief.
My isolation is deepening.
Glad my friend from CA is coming to stay with me this weekend.
I guess this is just a more frustrated version of what now?
Decent people carry the pollution of abuse with them for a while in my experience.
Theres every chance you REEK of Sparrows emotional poisoning still.
But that won't be forever. Your decent response to her toxin means thet you will be able to cut loose with a polished conscience once the D is final, and the shackles of Sparrow are finally droppped from you.
And THEN the RIGHT chicks will flock <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Well it wasn't as bad as I thought but NC was broken. Took him all day to admit it and by last night I had heart palpitations and I think my blood pressure was through the roof. It is all his fault if he does not have the b*lls to tell OW definitively NC. Sheesh he gives her to whiny "I can't talk to you anymore" bullsh*t. I may still stick to may statement yesterday of this being it for me. I can't take his weakness. I told him it is up to him to protect me, our children and our M otherwise....
SS, I am thinking at this point to continue letting the D go through. Yesterday when I was at the peak of my panic I was ready to ask him to leave and go to plan B. I really don't think plan B would be effective if he isn't actively in an A though. He wanted SF last night <eyeroll> and I told him flat out that I was not interested. I felt violated, uncared for and frankly was still having heart palpitations. I had no interest in his hands being on me!
FF, without real resolve he'll never be man enough to save your M. With that wimpy "I wuz a bad boy so now I'm grounded" attitude, his promises aren't worth much.
I do not like this. He doesn't care what he's putting you through. A real man would say, "FF, let go that pain and let me carry it for you."
Well Gray, you may be right. Because I do know he is in love with me again. I can feel it and I can see it, plus I put some real panic into him last night. It would be very hard to get him out of the house without a legal battle before the D though. Maybe though I have him move into the guest room and stop meeting his needs? Stop doing the laundry, the SF and cooking for him?
SS, yes he is a far cry from where he was just a couple months ago but still does not truly understand or take responsibilty for his actions. He has always been one of those do nothing so everyone else is at fault kind of guys.
Gray, When I read your commentary (on your feelings) it rattles me. I have searched for a way to tell YOU WHO YOU ARE, and how much you have going for you. You measure success by things you ought not to use for standards.
There's not a good way to take what you can understand with your mind, and put it into your heart. I am at a loss - the same loss you are dealing with.
Understand, I don't claim to know the depth of your pain, and your frustration.
But.......But I can see it, and wish something could be done.
What happened to you is not a measure of you, it is a measure of her. None of us can change your feelings, or make things different, only you can do that. The world is full of people that had injury and insult heaped upon them, but that triumphed anyway. You can too. If you already know it, forgive me for belaboring the point. If not, I hope you come out here again this summer, so I can beat it into you.
Here's to you knowing I am trying to make you laugh, but still serious about how good you really are.
What happened to you is not a measure of you, it is a measure of her. None of us can change your feelings, or make things different, only you can do that. The world is full of people that had injury and insult heaped upon them, but that triumphed anyway. You can too.
Faithful, it may be easier to just let the D go through.
If you want to try, and if you believe he can come around in time, you can still watch him, and encourage him from a distance.
I don't know, this is something you will have to think a lot about. It is not dependant on what he does from day to day, but how much progress he makes from month to month. All of us have problems with bad days - even you and I.
I wish you were counseling with SH. This is one of the things he is good at.
I have thought about counseling with SH recently. I may still break down and use my cc to do so. Would be worth it just to get myself on a straight path and stop circling. You are right and going by the month to month things are much improved but he just put the tiny bit of trust I was building back down to zero.
Faithful, What I said to Gray applies to you also.
This is not a measure of you - but it tends to become that if we let it.
It's hard to look at ourselves, and see where we can improve, and keep making those improvements at the same time not blaming ourselves for all that goes wrong in our marriage. We tend to go for all or nothing. That is, either we take all the blame ourselves, or we place it all on the WS, and forget we are still a work in progress ourselves.
I hope you can find balance.
I think it would be worth a few calls to SH even if it takes debt to make it work. The debt that will come from D could be worse, and take longer to cope with.
I hope your day gets better, and that you improve upon it tomorrow.
That surprised me. There just one station at a decent elevation in that area, at Gardner Peak. The others are near New Harmony, at White Reef, and at Long Flat.
Now that I look, the satellite shows one little patch of snow, about 1 mile on each side, with around 10-15% snow cover.
Every time I try to write songs they wind up being about my stupid wife.
Hi GC,
First time I've ventured into your thread... a few posts in here!
I was writing songs like mad during the peak of my hurt, now that I don't hurt so much I just don't seem to have the need as much (or the desire or something?). Seems the music writing was somehow therapeutic for me and the hurt really inspired my creativity. Good thing I'm not a professional musician and then I would need to be hurt like this all the time to get my work done! Maybe its because I've been playing the electric a lot lately and find it less inspiring than the acoustic? Who friggin' knows!
I often wonder about the fine line between expressing your feelings and dwelling in them? Expressing good. Dwelling bad. But how do you tell the difference?
That snow patch would probably be Whipple valley - huge meadow up top.
From down below I can see the snow under the trees near the top of the mountain all the way around. Gardner peak is mostly clear, only snow on the north side, but it is a lower peak.
The stations near New Harmony are probalby lower too. The names are not really familiar to me.
Anyway (grin) I have probably bothered you enough.
Man. Mind if I pull up a log and open a cold one? I have been run out of Idiotville with all the estrogen talk. By no means a music afficianado, I can tell a joke or to at the least.
NCW sits on log, tilts back ball cap, gives head a good scratch, wipes cold one accross forehead....AAAAAHHHHH
I am plodding along. Trying to be the best me I can be. Wondering how the next chapter of my life will be. Comfortable that it is in God's hands. I'm good. All things considered.
Gray,
No man, wiping my brow to cool it with the cold one. Haven't done a stunt like that since college. It's a campfire right? In the summer... Or don't they have summer where you live? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Yeah. Estrogen talk can get a little much. And there becomes a lack of substance over there. Can't say I'm all interested in the song lyrics, but at least there is a SUBJECT. Idiotville is now all "How are you?" "I'm fine, will pray for you.." Blah Blah Blah.
Not that prayers are bad, but that is just assumed, you know? Been some time since anything funny was going on. Miss Jelly and LemonDash.
Say hi to the band for me. I'll be in Detroit next week and also St. Louis, but that isn't close enough to see you.
I'm not up for estrogen today either. . . mind if I stick around? Maybe some of your masculinilty will wear off on me, lol.
I brought a couple of shots of Johnnie Black and some beef jerky to chew on; promise I won't get in the way if I can just pillow my head on this sleeping bag here and rest a bit. Need to poke at the fire and stare at the embers for a while tonight. Been worried about Weaver.
Wanna tell you about the girl I love My she looks so fine She's the only one that I been dreamin' of Maybe someday she will be all mine I wanna tell her that I love her so I thrill with her every touch I need to tell her she's the only one I really love
I got a woman, wanna ball all day I got a woman, she won't be true, no I got a woman, stay drunk all the time I said I got a little woman and she won't be true
Sunday morning when we go down to church See the menfolk standin' in line I said they come to pray to the Lord With my little girl, looks so fine In the evening when the sun is sinkin' low Everybody's with the one they love I walk the town, Keep a-searchin' all around Lookin' for my street corner girl
I got a woman, wanna ball all day I got a woman, she won't be true, no no I got a woman, stay drunk all the time I said I got a little woman and she won't be true
In the bars, with the men who play guitars Singin', drinkin' and rememberin' the times My little lover does a midnight shift She followed around all the time I guess there's just one thing a-left for me to do Gonna pack my bags and move on my way Cause I got a worried mind Sharin' what I thought was mine Gonna leave her where the guitars play
(NCW really likes that part)
I got a woman, she won't be true, no no I got a woman, wanna ball all day I got a woman, stay drunk all the time I got a little woman and she won't be true
(Hey hey what can I do)
I said she won't be true
(Hey Hey, What can I say?)
Hey hey, what can I do I got a woman, she won't be true Lord, hear what I say I got a woman, wanna ball all day
I would swallow my pride I would choke on the rinds but the lack thereof would leave me empty inside, swallow my doubt turn it inside out find nothing but faith in nothing want to put my tender heart in a blender watch it spin around to a beautiful oblivion rendezvous, then I'm through with you
I burn burn like a wicker cabinet chalk white and oh so frail I see our time has gotten stale, the tick tock of the clock is painful all sane and logical I want to tear it off the wall I hear words in clips and phrases I think sick like ginger ale My stomach turns and I exhale
I would swallow my pride I would choke on the rinds But the lack thereof would leave me empty inside, I would swallow my doubt turn it inside out find nothing but faith in nothing want to put my tender heart in a blender watch it spin around to a beautiful oblivion rendezvous, then I'm through with you
SoCal is where my mind states, but it's not my state of mind I'm not as ugly, sad as you Or am I origami? folded up and just pretend, demented as the motives in your head
I would swallow my pride I would choke on the rinds but the lack thereof would leave me empty inside, I would swallow my doubt turn it inside out find nothing but faith in nothing want to put my tender heart in a blender watch it spin around to a beautiful oblivion rendezvous, then I'm through with you
I alone am the one you don't know you need take heed, feed your ego Make me blind when your eyes close sink when you get close, tie me to the bedpost
I alone am the one you don't know you need you don't know you need me. make me blind when your eyes close, time me to the bed post
I would swallow my pride I would choke on the rinds but the lack thereof would leave me empty inside, swallow my doubt turn it inside out find nothing but faith in nothing want to put my tender heart in a blender watch it spin around to a beautiful oblivion rendezvous, then I'm through, now I'm through with you
And when I am raging inside I tend to play this one...
Now I've told you this once before You can't control me If you try to take me down you're gonna pay Now I feel your every nothing that you're doing for me I'm picking you outa me you run away I stand alone Inside I stand alone You're always hiding behind your so called goddess So what you don't think that we can see your face Resurrected back before the final fallen I'll never rest until I can make my own way I'm not afraid of fading I stand alone Feeling your sting down inside of me I'm not dying for it I stand alone Everything that I believe is fading I stand alone Inside I stand alone And now its my time (now its my time) It's my time to dream (my time to dream) Dream of the sky (dream of the sky) Make me believe that this place isn't plagued By the poison in me Help me decide if my fire will burn out Before you can breathe Breathe into me I stand alone Inside I stand alone Feeling your sting down inside of me I'm not dying for it I stand alone Everything that I believe is fading I stand alone Inside I stand alone Inside I stand alone Inside I stand alone Inside
"Brother, brother, help me please, I'm as lonely as I can be. All my friends are scaring me, But if you forget me then I will leave.
Sister, sister, what can I do? I'm in love with tootsie too. Please excuse me if I am low, But me feelings just have to show.
People, people, hold my hand. Where in the hel is this promised land? Float right past me, oh I like your style. Seek it, seek it, seek it, seek it, you're here for a while.
Mother, mother, so good to me, Praying just so I can be. My father, my father, my only one, I hope you're proud of this your son.
Listen to them play now...."
The lyris alone don't do that song justice. AMAZING saxaphone accompanyment. oh yeah, and a terrific Hammond organ set on "percussion"!
Well, I happen to have some Jack Daniels in the saddlebag over there, if you want to grab it. . .
I don't drink very often but when I do, I like a little selection. JD and JW Black are my two faves. Sorry, no wine tonight. Unless you mean my bellyachin'. . . LOL.
COOL NCW! Gray needs a FLAG! What say you, Gray? Okay, perhaps not one with a tire on it, but still. . .
That'd be a rockin' tattoo! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
I'm having fun today. My favorite 90s band is reuniting tomorrow for one show only. This is an unbelievably good rock band that never got famous.
My friend from Cali is coming to see the show. I'm also taking the day off and going to pick up a late 50s Hammond organ I just bought, and working on my fireplace.
I'm listening to the band's appearance on our local indie radio station from earlier today.
Well NCW, for someone that isn't into lyrics you sure have quite a few. Eh the female stuff was to bug Robby but without you there it is not very funny. I miss Jelly bunches.
Hey SLH! Can't leave you alone with all these men. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Leave me with all these men! LOL. They're pretty harmless, tonight, anyway. Not exaclty leaping aroung the campfire with fingerpaint scrawled over their bodies, weilding twisted sticks and baying & cackling at the moon. . . much as they'd like us to think so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Anyone want to tell any horror stories?. . . I've got one. . . it's about an x-boyfriend of mine. We were talking about something rather sad, I don't recall what, and sensing his sorrow, I looked up at him and said, softly,
"Oh, you've got a grimace on your face."
The man (all 6'1" of him) leapt out of his chair, arms flailing, slapping at the skin on his face, shrieking, "Get it off! Get it off!".
He then proceeded to race around the deck and jumped into the pool, screeching and swatting at himself and the air all the while.
I sh*t you not. . . you can't make this stuff up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SLH... think I might have a winner ahead. This rock show is going to be too much. People have come from all over the country to see it, though it's at a 400-capacity club. It's gonna crackle. 400 people getting a wish granted, all at the same time.
When I woke up this morning, things were lookin' bad Seem like total silence was the only friend I had Bowl of oatmeal tried to stare me down... and won And it was twelve o'clock before I realized That I was havin' .. no fun
Chorus: Ah But fortunately I have the key to escape reality And you may see me tonight with an illegal smile It don't cost very much, but it lasts a long while Won't you please tell the man I didn't kill anyone No I'm just tryin' to have me some fun
Last time I checked my bankroll, It was gettin' thin Sometimes it seems like the bottom Is the only place I've been I Chased a rainbow down a one-way street... dead end And all my friends turned out to be insurance salesmen
Repeat Chorus:
Well, I sat down in my closet with all my overalls Tryin' to get away From all the ears inside my walls I dreamed the police heard Everything I thought... what then? Well I went to court And the judge's name was Hoffman
Ah but fortunately I have the key to escape reality And you may see me tonight with an illegal smile It don't cost very much, but it lasts a long while Won't you please tell the man I didn't kill anyone No I'm just tryin' to have me some fun Well done, hot dog bun, my sister's a nun
*AD tramps heavily into camp, panting under the load of a large bundle on his back enshrouded in a blanket soaked in dark liquid. He looks around, sees everyone sleeping, and stumbles on down the trail ... leaving drops of something on the trampled grass*
One of these days, (Gray) you will want to go home. You'll want a girl to be there for you. You'll want to look at her across the table, before you leave for work. You'll want to come home and have her there, waiting for you.
I know you don't want to take a long time. In some ways you are ready now. In some ways you are not.
Here's a link. Again, I am not trying to tell you what to do, or how to do it. Most of this doesn't apply, I already know that. There is a little part about being done, that may apply. You decide. Not dating until you are done
Glad there are good parts to your life.
Thanks for the campfire, I like camping, always have.
He's been D'ed a year and just now is tring to figure out what in the world happened and is he really so awful as his XW said etc. etc. Typical angst. Invite him over to burn some marshmellows.
I know you don't want to take a long time. In some ways you are ready now. In some ways you are not.
SS, you're right. I don't want to wait. I have no desire to spend my life as a self-absorbed bachelor. I know one. He's happy that way, but it's not for me.
I am ready. I have a terrible desire to put my time and energy into someone besides myself.
And it would be awful nice if some girl dug me and wanted to be nice to me.
Unfortunately, I still sting from my wife's rejection. Thinking about it makes me feel wretched. I still get that voice sometimes, saying, hey buddy, you'd have to be pretty unappealing to be rejected by your own wife. Even if everybody tells you otherwise, there has to be something wrong with you. What other explanation is there?
That's why I'm probably a little too likely to go ga-ga for the first girl who shows some interest, and it's how I'm not ready.
The rock show last night? Huh! They blew the roof off. It was all I'd hoped for. It made the hair on my arms stand up, made me walk around with a [censored]-eating grin half the time. It's the happiest I've felt since my brother's wedding. Pure joy.
I just saw your post. Probably the first I think you've sent 2 me.
I'm not as eloquent as our buddy gc here. I just know what I like... ...what I love... ...what I cry over when I hear...
Here's something from Eric Andersen, a man with an amazing voice (with some equally amazing backup vocals from Joni Mitchell) - something I can't duplicate (though I can "do" okay, and would LOVE 2 spend an evening with gc and his band. Not in public, but in private, for me. For them... For love).
...I especially love the part about "Rob", doncha know? Or doncha?:
Eric Andersen, "Blue River"
Old man go to the river To drop his bale of woes He could go if he wanted to It's just a boat to row you know
listen to me now
Blue River keep right on rollin' All along the shoreline Keep us safe from the deep and the dark 'Cause we don't want to stray too far
Spent the day with my old dog Moe Down an old dirt road What he's thinking, Lord I don't know But for him, I bet the time must go so slow Don't you know
Blue River keep right on rollin' All along the shoreline Keep us safe from the deep and the dark 'Cause we don't want to stray too far
Harmonica break
Young Rob stands with his axe in hand, yeah Believin' that the crops are in Firewood stacked ten by ten For the wife the folks the kids And all of the kin... ...and a friend
listen to me now
Blue River keep right on rollin' All along the shoreline Keep us safe from the deep and the dark 'Cause we don't want to stray too far"
SLH, my buddy and his dad (who lives here) helped me haul a 300-pound electric organ from the 'burbs to my house. You should see this thing. It's totally beat up and sounds super cool.
Oh, oh. I'm listening to the MC5 today. This always leads to mayhem.
Do you play by ear? I need to read music until I get it down.
My DD's dad plays by ear, piano and guitar. He used to give music lessons and had to learn to read music because of course most people can't learn without it.
He tried to teach me theory once LOL what a disaster that was. I think the part of my mind which could have gotten it shut down in elementary school.
Oh and that reminds me that my piano teacher once told my mom that she thought I had more talent than the rest of her students because of the feeling I brought to the piece. And my mom said, "oh yes, that's our little Sarah Bernhart, she has LOTS of feeling". I was very emotional and dramatic, even back then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, "Karn Evil 9, Third Impression"
"Man alone; born of stone; Will stamp the dust of time His hands strike the flame of his soul; Ties a rope to a tree and hangs the Universe Until the wind of laughter blows cold.
Fear that rattles in men's ears And rears it's hideous head Dread! .... Death! .... in the wind ....
Man of steel pray and kneel With fever's blazing torch Thrust in the face of the night; Draws a blade if compassion Kissed by countless Kings Whose jewelled trumpet words blind his sight.
Walls that no man thought would fall The altars of the just Crushed! .... Dust! .... in the wind ....
No man yields who flies in my ship! DANGER! Let the bridge computer speak! STRANGER! LOAD YOUR PROGRAM! I AM YOURSELF!
No computer stands in my way! Only blood can cancel my pain! Guardians of a nuclear dawn! Let the maps of war be drawn.
Rejoice! Glory is ours! Our young men have not died in vain. Their graves need no flowers! The tapes have recorded their names.
I am all there is! NEGATIVE! PRIMITIVE! LIMITED! I LET YOU LIVE! But I gave you life! WHAT ELSE COULD YOU DO!? To do what was right! I'M PERFECT! ARE YOU!??"
I read music and I know music theory. When I play something, I know what I'm playing. Our bass player writes some songs. He uses a guitar usually for writing. He comes up with lots of weird little chord fingerings combined with open strings. I worry that his heart breaks a little when I look the thing over and say, "Oh, that's a Dm7." Not so long ago we were jamming a little. As usual, it started with our bass player getting into something, then I hopped in. I was cranky that day, and I stopped them and said, "How about we jam something that isn't in E for a change?" The bassist, who by the way is very good, looked at me and said, "That wasn't in E." We investigated and found that it was. I said, "Pretty much all the jams you guys start are in E." I felt a little bad for letting that out, but it's been bugging me for a while.
I can't play piano, so I'm going to try an experiment. I'm gonna try and learn to play organ from putting Booker T CDs on and messing around without looking at the keys. I probably can't do it though. I'll still know where my fingers are.
As for what I'm "going for" with organ... the sound of an electric organ is part of the sound of ROCK to me, and it's underused in modern music.
It drives me nuts when those who call themselves musicians brag that they don't know a thing about music theory, as if to suggest that knowing music makes your music have less soul, or some silliness.
It's possible to not know a damn thing and be a decent musician, surely. It's also possible to know music very well and make antiseptic music. I find some 70s prog rock a little bit like that. But it's better, especially when you play with other people, if you can actually speak the same language about what you're doing. I'm frustrated by this problem with my band all the time.
Was that a diatribe? Sorry. I've been painting all day and I'm a little talkative.
"Pretty much all the jams you guys start are in E." I felt a little bad for letting that out, but it's been bugging me for a while.
GC, that's pretty funny, actually. A lot of bass players, by default, tend to wander over naturally to E as the root... sorta makes sense in a way. I was just thinking about that yesterday... as I re-train myself after 12+ years of non-playing... I said to myself "geesh! c'mon! ya gotta do something other than E all the time!"
Have fun with the Hammond... I remember moving one... once!
Hello all....I was referred to come over here to this thread. Maybe I can give a little insight into what happens a year later after the D. Thanks for the invite Graycloud
jrjr, what has changed since the D? Was there any recent development? You say she's probably living with this huntin' dude. Then you say the information that she's messing around with him old news. Which is it? Did you know she was cheating with the huntin' dude when your M ended? If so, what's new and surprising? That she isn't just messing around, but is actually living with him? That would be SOP for a WS. Maybe I could have read your thread more carefully, but I don't get it.
Sorry about the confusion. Let me put some things in perspective.
Well, just before the separation or bomb drop day...before I even had a clue.....she went to visit this guy with a gf from her class. This was after the class had ended for about a month. She went over there & I was working.....it was New Years day. She called me that afternoon telling me in a voicemail that she was going to go over there to visit. Well, late that night I never got a call back telling me she got home ok. I called & called. No answer. She later, prob around 1-2 am, calls me to tell me she got home ok...that it was foggy outside & they had to drive slow. That they all went out to play pool & lost track of time.
Anyway, 2 weeks later is bomb drop day (Jan 17). She tells me the typical.."I'm not happy, etc". The next day I call her & want to talk to her. No answer. She calls later & tells me that she is at this guys parents house (30 miles from where we lived). That she is eating dinner with them & they are all riding 4-wheelers. That they are trying to cheer her up.
Well, between that time & when I filed in April....2 months time....I learn that she has gone over there about 3-4 times. Now remember, she has never been over there before that 1st time on New Years day. She even went on valentines day night to his sisters b-day party...which sounds odd to me. Who has a b-day on valentines night.
Anyway this guy was engaged a few months before. She told me before a few weeks before bomb drop-day that he had broken up with here. I dont think she would have gone over there to visit if he was still engaged. It all makes sense. They were consoling each other I suppose....barf
Well about 2 weeks after I filed, my cousin saw her in Walmart one day. My cousin told me that she looked rough, like she had been working outside all day. That she had some guy with her. My cousin couldnt remember any details about what the guy looked like. I suppose it was this same guy..helping her clean up a house she was renting.
In late May the D was final....a week before what would have been our 5 anniv.
Rush a year later....I havent heard anything from her...nothing. Ive instructed my family to not tell me anything about her. If they see her....I dont want to know about it. It was too fresh a wound to know back then.
Well, I google her name & our hometown.....a link pops up to a online guestbook for our hometowns sheriffs dept. She has signed it, stating that she is now working in a different town. It turns out she is working for the same dept as this other guy but at a different way-station....(both work for that countys sheriffs dept).
I can only assume that she has daily contact with him. No idea if he is living with her or not. I dont know anything that is going on in her life.
I had it right, then. But I don't get it! What part are you uncertain about? Between the "bomb drop" (did she admit to cheating then or just say "I'm not happy"?) and your divorce, you say you knew she was having an affair. Right? Well then, the fact that she's shacked up with the affair partner would fit with everything else.
Now, if she pretended she wasn't cheating, and pretended that Elmer Fudd was just a supportive pal, and said stuff like, "I haven't been happy for a long time" and "I love you but I'm not in love with you", well we know around here what those sayings are... they're WS code for "I'm cheating on you and I'd like to get rid of you with as little guilt and hassle for myself as possible so I'm going to pretend this is about something else."
So I don't mean to be insensitive, but knowing all that, my response to your suspicion that she's shacked up with Elmer Fudd is... well... my response is just, duh. Of course she is.
Look, jrjr. From the sounds of things, she fell for this Elmer Fudd fella, cheated on you with him, B.S.ed you into divorcing her, pretending he was "just a friend" helping her through this difficult time in her life, and now she's traveling the WS path exactly according to the textbook. My W is doing the same thing, except I didn't cooperate with the D, so she had to do it. It's funny how they do what they're going to do anyway.
For instance, the day the sparrow said she wanted to get divorced, she admitted that she and the tinman were planning to get together down the road, but since neither was divorced yet, they were "just good friends". Ha ha ha ha ha. They were boinking all over creation within days of that announcement, if not before.
If I'd believed her, I'd have thought she was extremely unhappy for years being married to me, that I was wholly responsible for the downfall of our marriage, that the tinman had nothing to do with her desire to leave me, that she was too principled to actually cheat on me for real, so on and so on.
Everything your W told you to get you to go along with the divorce and to do it quickly was pure B.S. But the part that's mind-blowing is that she believed most of what she was saying to be true.
WS are dishonest, selfish creatures who rationalize their cruelty and justify their downfall by pinning it on the person who loves them most. The human mind is remarkably adaptable. To survive, or to keep feeling a good feeling, the human mind is able to comfort a person's conscience while she does horrible, sometimes unspeakable, acts. I believe that this adaptability is at work in much of the human behavior commonly viewed as "evil". But I digress.
What's this box I'm standing on? What's that stamped on it? "SOAP"? Hm.
You are starting to remind me of a guy who came to my aide a little over a year ago, on this very merry same board.
His moniker starts with a W and ends with a T. I do believe you have grown. Cynacism has to come from someplace after all. Or how about experienced? I know, how about JADED? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, joining the ranks of the cynics herself. Now maybe I better learn how to spell it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Naw I'll just use the word realist.
I hear what you are saying Graycloud. Ive been playing the denial game way too long. She never admitted to an A to either me nor to the psych counselor. She just stated that she was unhappy...."Ive got two paths I can go down....if I choose one I might regret not going down the other". I remember her saying that to me. I was hurt so bad knowing that I was an 'option'.
I had suspected of an affair after I started coming to this forum & people telling me the signs. It started to make sense.
Something odd though. I mentioned to her on the bomb drop that maybe she didnt get enough affection from me (which I knew couldnt be right...I emailed her everyday with little smiley faces & saying ILY all the time). She shocked me by basically saying that affection wasnt a top need for her.,...that she didnt need it. In an subsequent email, she mentioned that recreation was a very important need. I was clueless about that.
She also mentioned something very odd. Remember, we were living in different towns...I due to a new job. She mentioned to me that I could find another girl in the new town I was (still) living in. This was so odd to hear from her. Has anyone heard something like this before?
She never mentioned a D at all during that time. Just a separation. Its during that time that she didnt want any contact...except email & a phone calls. What sent me over the edge was her wanting to share the tax refund with me. I couldnt believe she wanted to stick it to me one more time.
Yeah, she is more than likely shacking up with him. I'm curious if she is. That means she is a loser like him. I so much want her to see me going on with my life.
About 9 months ago, I met someone else & things are really serious. Ive asked this person to marry me. She is super excited & Im looking forward to sharing my life with someone worthy. Deep down though, I do want the X to see that I have gone on with my life...and for her to hurt a little.
I spent most of the weekend praying and asking God to take my burden and my pain from me. I surrendered it to HIM.
Now I am concentrating on simple goals, such as cutting the grass, working out. Forcing myself to go on.
I think you need to try with all you have to detach from hubby and your sitch. And concentrate on daily goals, and turning it over to God.
I also have sent DD with her dad. She won't be back for 4 1/2 months now, except for every other weekend starting in three weeks.
I am unable to be what whe needs right now. So my sitch is different than yours in that he is gone. I have no more decision to make, only the pain of trying to understand.
About 9 months ago, I met someone else & things are really serious. Ive asked this person to marry me. She is super excited & Im looking forward to sharing my life with someone worthy. Deep down though, I do want the X to see that I have gone on with my life...and for her to hurt a little.
Congratulations!
I'm not telling you what to do - and you shouldnt' listen to me if I do, but it seems you met this lady only 3 months after the D - and when you needed somebody to sooth your wounded pride. If I were in your postion, I might do the same. It must feel good. Just be careful you don't hurt yourself again by moving into this relationship too soon. It's clear that you still haven't gotten 100% over what happened with your XW. If wanting to hurt your X is a big part of your motivation in establishing this new relationship, it could cause big problems down the road - for you and your new love.
Everything you said - so dead on, right down to believing the b.s. they spew as it comes out!
Bring out more Gray on the soapbox! I'm so small I look up to everybody but you intelligent, made taller by way of soapbox standing types are All Right!
Now I am concentrating on simple goals, such as cutting the grass, working out. Forcing myself to go on.
I think you need to try with all you have to detach from hubby and your sitch. And concentrate on daily goals, and turning it over to God.
I know you are right, very difficult for me to pull off but necessary for my health.
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I also have sent DD with her dad. She won't be back for 4 1/2 months now, except for every other weekend starting in three weeks.
I am unable to be what whe needs right now. So my sitch is different than yours in that he is gone. I have no more decision to make, only the pain of trying to understand.
I really admire you for this Weaver.
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I wish we lived close by each other Faith.
Me too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I need some IRL friends that really understand. I have two good friends but their kids are young and they don't have much time.
Gray, Thanks, she is a special person in my life. I asked her on Christmas day. We have beeen planning things since then. Next year, we will get married...April.
No, I thought about what I had said earlier & I dont want it to sound like I want this new relationship to be a motivator for getting back at the xw. Its far from that. Let me just say that when the xw learns that I have moved on, that it wouldnt bother me at all if she got hurt a little by it.
I could care less about the xw. She is redneck trash. She will never go anywhere except stay in the same crappy little town & play cops.
Gray, I suppose I came back to MB just to get rid of that small amount of denial that I had left in me. I wanted someone to counsel me & to tell me in plain english what they think went on in my situation....to tell me that I was a good guy. I got so used to that worthless MC playing games with my head. I want someone whos been thru it all & tells me the truth..something I didnt get alot of last year.
She also mentioned something very odd. Remember, we were living in different towns...I due to a new job. She mentioned to me that I could find another girl in the new town I was (still) living in. This was so odd to hear from her. Has anyone heard something like this before?
Pffft! Typical. WS wanted you to have an affair too, so you'd be equally diminished, and to guarantee that your marriage would be damaged beyond repair, and to lessen her guilt over leaving you alone, abandoned, and unloved. She expected you to share the load with her, the weight of responsibility for all the misery and destruction she created. She didn't especially like being its architect. It wasn't fair that she had to be the bad guy. And she'd have felt less guilty knowing that you were being cared for.
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She never mentioned a D at all during that time. Just a separation. Its during that time that she didnt want any contact...except email & a phone calls. What sent me over the edge was her wanting to share the tax refund with me. I couldnt believe she wanted to stick it to me one more time.
jrjr, she's got no imagination! She did it by the book. She didn't have the guts to pursue the divorce herself. She wanted you to do the dirty work for her. She didn't have to courage to look you, her victim, in the face. Mine did the same thing. Avoided me completely during our separation.
But as such a purely self-involved being, she also wanted to make sure she got as much money out of you as possible. Perfect! She's a quick study. A model WW! Mine did this also.
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Deep down though, I do want the X to see that I have gone on with my life...and for her to hurt a little.
Jrjr, I know this feeling. It follows me around, sniffing at my heels. It's a natural wish, for the person who has wronged you to suffer for it. This is wrath you feel. I doubt it's good for you. I can tell it isn't good for me. Heck, it's one of the seven deadly sins, come to think of it.
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Gray, I suppose I came back to MB just to get rid of that small amount of denial that I had left in me. I wanted someone to counsel me & to tell me in plain english what they think went on in my situation....to tell me that I was a good guy. I got so used to that worthless MC playing games with my head.
Jrjr, did the affair come up during MC? Because I can tell you, most of us around here, unqualified and uncredentialed amateurs, would have probably had your W pegged for a cheater the first time she opened her mouth to run you down.
Based on what I've heard, and based on my own limited experience, I reckon most MC don't have a clue. Most are focused on everybody getting what they want, and they appear to have a tendency to err on the side of ending the marriage.
Jrjr, our exes should get together and play Candyland. They have so much in common!
My man, if I had to guess, I'd guess that your pain is coming out in little puffs partly because the full composition of your xWW's betrayal hasn't ever snapped into focus for you, and partly because you're getting lots of good feelings from the new woman in your life, which distract you from your injury.
Do two things, please. First, take a little more time to reflect on what's happened and to feel your pain if you need to. You owe it to the new woman in your life to have a little bit better scar on the wound your xWW gave you before you marry. And second - and you might already have done this - imagine that the affair was your fault, that you "drove your wife away" with your bad habits and had a terrible aim when it came to giving her what she needed from a partner. Not because you're to blame for her crime, but because thinking on it will make you a better partner to this new woman. I think possibly you've got that one. With a WW and an MC pointing the fingers at you, you must have thought about it lots. It even sounds like you talked to your xWW about it.
Anyway, I go on and on, don't I? Lack of sleep I guess.
You asked if the affair came up during MC. I think it was an emotional affair then. It began with her going out more with these new friends she made in her class. To put this in some perspective, before this class she never had much of social life. I mean she had a decent social atmoshphere at her work place way back then as a juvenile probation officer (right now I guess she is a sherriffs deputy). But these new friends were all close in age to her (mid 20's) so I suppose she felt a bond in age as well as career interests.
We started MC about 2 months after the class started. She was already by then staying out several nights a week after the night class ended. I suppose one could say that she was having an emotional attachment to this group of people. She did mention in MC that she had never had friends like this...it made her feel good.
Also during the MC is when I found the notes. This was maybe a step-up into individual attention. Once I found them, she would never truly tell me who wrote back to her. She wrote the damaging parts, but another guy wrote back on the same notes. Kind of like notes passed around in HS.
This is when I tried to psycho-analyze the situation. I got her to explain how it made her feel. She explained that she enjoyed getting the attention. But I was curious why did the attention have to be, for lack of a better word, sexually based.
In these notes she was talking about her thongs & how she could use her fingernails in suggestive ways. She had told me before that these guys would taunt other women in the class to lift up their shirts & show them their breasts. That they would make comments to her to 'shake her milkshake'.
Well she explained that in HS she never got that type of attention....that she resented the girls that did. That getting this attention made her feel good about herself. Looking back to when I first got to know her, I can see this pattern emerging. Before I got to know her, she had lost some weight. That she had struggled with weightloss for some time, but from what she told me, she didnt have to lose that much. Anyway, I can remember that she used to go thru times of getting really depressed about it all. This is after she had lost the weight. Her thought pattern was that she was still 'fat' & needed to lose more weight.
She kept this same attitude all thru the marriage...but it wouldnt come out as often. I suppose this new attention she was getting made her feel so good. It was something I couldnt give to her...that maybe she had to have it from others. Who knows...
There were other instances that started to suspect. Our MC at the time didnt seem to acknowledge any of this even after I expressed some concern. When I presented the notes in our jointly session, the MC didnt want to see them. I suppose he didnt want to embarass her by reading them. I lok back...he was worthless. We saw him one more time after the bomb drop day....his advice was to divorce. You are right, most MC dont have a clue.
You know what, the MC never pointed fingers at either of us. To him, our problems were trivial. He suggested that we had such minimal problems compared to some folks he was counseling. That all we needed to do was talk to each other. Good advice....shallow though. He never gave us any exercises or suggested ways to improve anything. IMO during our sessions he would talk way above my head....we got into issues about our child hoods, how she felt about her dad, etc.
I have been trying to improve myself in thinking about my own contibutions to all of it. Ive read most of Dr Harleys books & I plan on going thru the workbooks & precounseling with this new love in my life. I dont want to make any mistakes & I want to avoid any habits that can destroy the love that we have.
Jrjr, my WW went into la-la land over flattery too.
So the fire is dim tonight. This soldier has had his second night with no sleep in two weeks. A bit worried about this. I don't know what's up. Maybe I shouldn't have stopped my ADs. I didn't consult my doctor, I just stopped. Six weeks ago.
It's weird how little information there is on the web about the specific side effects and withdrawal symptoms of this drug.
'...Young Rob stands with his axe in hand, yeah Believin' that the crops are in...'
(that way is danger. Don't want to go there.)
We are going to be okay, 2long. Our hearts can bear this.
Still, I don't get too close to the rivers edge some days. But today is a good day. There is a bird singing outside my window and an old man on a tractor in the field. The sun is shining, and my tomatoes are in blossom and I am going to take a walk down a dirt road and pick daisies out of the ditch.
Shul
ps: I got your backup part. I'm not Joni, but I'll do...
the months have gone by and I did get home in one piece - a bit battered but walking albeit on crutches - but home. Hope to ditch the crutches for good soon ...damn sick of them.
I remember a far different GC from the man I read of here now, you've done a mighty job to work through everything..pretty darn impressive in fact.
One of these days when the ol campfire is burning I'll drop by to say G'day, in the meantime remember it'll be apples mate.
Weaver, I am so happy. It sounds like you have lots of decisions to make, lots of work to do, and that you are worn out, and tired.
However, you are back on track, and that makes me sooooooo happy.
Prayer is a funny thing. Sometimes it seems like they never get through the cealing. Other times its almost like he is in the room with us. It takes some of the former, to get more of the latter. Don't give up.
I can't tell you how happy I am that you are doing better. You'll continue to have temptations. Don't let them get to you, you are worth to much.
Remember how much help Paige will need to overcome the trialsl she will face these next ten years. I expect you to be there to help her. I say this not out of concern for her (so much) as for you. If you are there helping her, you will be where you need to be for you.
If you could understand how good you really are, and how much you are worth, you would be OK the rest of your life.
You're sig line pretty much says it all about you.
I have my appetite back already, and am sleeping with the help of tylenol PM, so no A/D's needed this time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Paige sent me a card which made me cry and realized that she needs her happy mom back.
Renters out back haven't paid yet and I didn't even realize it until yesterday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Called and they don't answer so tonight after work guess i have to walk back there and say hi. Just one thing after another, dontchaknow.
Weaver, The day to day stuff never ends, but you do get more used to it, and better at taking care of it and still being able to have fun.
I don't care much for TPM. I stay half asleep till noon the next day. It does work though.
When you left and said you were going to seek revenge, I though about it for two days. I just kept thinking "I don't know her phone number, so I can't call her, but this just isn't her, she's got to come back and tell us it's not for her."
I am so glad you are back, and working for the things you really want. You and I have both made mistakes, but we can overcome those things, and be who we want to be. I have really high hopes for you, and I think they are realistic.
Thanks again for showing me I'm right about how good you are.
SS, I'm still here, thank you for asking. Watching, listening, learning.
You know, for a while, Tiger was reading here every day. Deficit of time, though -- and (I fear) good old-fashioned self-loathing -- took it's toll, so he now avoids the boards without ever having posted. He hates to see what we have become, what he feels responsible for. . . and the things he could change? Job? Locale? Those conversations are promptly executed at their genesis. I do not persist. I lack the heart.
But I do not lack hope.
Sometimes I wonder who will be to blame if my heart finally forfiets to a road that does not include him.
I spent a portion of Sunday evening with my horse. No mad galloping through the hills or splashing across salty, sandy dunes that night; just me sitting on his bare back while he grazed, reading in the dimming light. He glows silver when the moon and stars reflect on his coat, did you know?
Alabaster in the moonlight.
A halo of radiance encircling me, bolstering me, reassuring me before I return home.
SS, I'm still here, thank you for asking. Watching, listening, learning.
Yes, and you leave out some things. Hoping, wishing.
You know, for a while, Tiger was reading here every day. Deficit of time, though -- and (I fear) good old-fashioned self-loathing -- took it's toll, so he now avoids the boards without ever having posted. He hates to see what we have become, what he feels responsible for.
Is he so tired that he can't stand to think about it? If so, this is the beginning of the end.
. . and the things he could change? Job? Locale? Those conversations are promptly executed at their genesis. I do not persist. I lack the heart.
I suggested a letter as a beginning. JayeM said he didn't think it would work. I didn't know when I suggested it, but we had to start someplace.
Tiger thinks that if he just keeps working as hard as he is things will get better. Just keep doin it, doin it, doin it.
I think you will get tired of it before gets good enough.
But I do not lack hope.
Hope is good, but not enough by itself. You need a road map, or how will you know if you take the wrong turn?
As was said in Alice in wonderland "if you don't know where you want to go, why does it matter which road you take."
Sometimes I wonder who will be to blame if my heart finally forfiets to a road that does not include him.
You can make changes without his input. That is what will happen anyway, but if done now can make all the difference in the world.
You have to get someones attention before you can talk to him. This site is full of examples of how that was done in...........shall we say "less than constructive ways."
How can you get his attention, if talking will not do?
Move without him.
Leave for a few months.
Hit him on the head with a cast iron frying pan.
File for a D.
Have an A.
Now, I am not suggesting ANYTHING. You may be able to think of another way, that is not so disruptive, but get his attention you must, before it is too late, and before the gatherning darkness becomes more and more normal.
I spent a portion of Sunday evening with my horse. No mad galloping through the hills or splashing across salty, sandy dunes that night; just me sitting on his bare back while he grazed, reading in the dimming light. He glows silver when the moon and stars reflect on his coat, did you know?
You found your own little bit of magic. Part of what makes life life for you. He used to know, but he doesn't now. He can't see now. He no longer creates magic for you, and the empty feelings grow.
Alabaster in the moonlight.
Love does it so much better, and it is much more filling, and rewarding.
Get his attention. It can't be fake, or contrived. You have to be ready and willing to do whatever it takes. Even if it means the end of your M.
A halo of radiance encircling me, bolstering me, reassuring me before I return home.
It can be magic again. It can..........for both of you. Life is not being a slave to the almighty dollar. Magic should be a part of it, must be a part of it.
I really am okay. Yeah, right. And I'm the queen of Sheba too.
Don't be afraid.
You have hope, but don't sit on it.
"Happy are those that dream dreams, and are willing to pay the price to make them come true."
Fire is lit. I'm going to neglect it though. I'm painting. My house is 85 degrees. Maybe someone will be around to poke it around if it die down (5 points if you get that reference).
I haven't talked to car4love in a while. I've been very busy, and when we speak on the phone, it's usually a loooong conversation. Hours. I haven't had an hours-long phone conversation with anybody in weeks. I don't have the time. My house needs me, and I can't seem to finish any of my projects. They stay half done no matter how hard I work. 2long, help! I've distilled it to two major tasks, and still I can't finish them. So anyway, car4love and I have finally gotten in touch via email. She can't do that very often, since financial pressures have left her without Internet service, and the rest of the time she's got this little tiny person to care for.
She and the tinman are in mediation, more mediation. It sounds like torture, though she hasn't given me any details. I wonder if hearing about the mediation will damage me. Probably, but I'm toughening up.
SLH, you have to give your H a jolt. Does he know the depth of your angst? If he's willing to let you, and him, suffer endlessly for these $-related efforts... I don't know. I believe it's foolhardy.
That horse-riding description was the berries, SLH.
You guys are in the sackeroo already, and it's only 10:25pm on the left flank?
I just finished watching "Garden State" with my kids and SIL. Cute movie. Quirky in a "Harold and Maude" kind of way, but not vulgar like that. Loved the music.
...speaking of music, I'm going 2 give one 2 my Christian friends on here. Don't subscribe 2 this brand of zeal anymore these days, "but still the warmth flows through me" (Peter Gabriel, "Lay Your Hands On Me"):
Larry Norman, "The Outlaw"
"Some say he was an outlaw, that he roamed across the land With a band of unschooled ruffians and a few old fishermen. No one knew just where he'd come from or exactly what he'd done, But they said it must be something bad that kept him on the run.
Some say he was a poet that he'd stand upon the hill And his voice could calm an angry crowd or make the waves stand still That he spoke in many parables that few could understand But the people sat for hours just to listen to this man.
Some say he was a sorcerer a man of mystery He could walk upon the water. He could make a blind man see. That he conjured wine at weddings and did tricks with fish and bread. That he talked of being born again and raised people from the dead.
Some say a politician who spoke of being free He was followed by the masses on the shores of Galilee. He spoke out against corruption and he bowed to no decree! And they feared his strength and power so they nailed him to a tree.
Some say he was the Son of God a man above all men, But he came to be a servant and to set us free from sin. And that's who I believe he was 'cause that's who I believe And I think we should get ready 'cause it's time for us to leave."
You who live in heaven Hear the prayers of those of us who live on earth Who are afraid of being left by those we love And who get hardened by the hurt
Do you remember when You lived down here where we all scrape To find the faith to ask for daily bread Did You forget about us after You had flown away Well I memorized every word You said
Still I'm so scared, I'm holding my breath While You're up there just playing hard to get
You who live in radiance Hear the prayers of those of us who live in skin We have a love that's not as patient as Yours was Still we do love now and then
Did You ever know loneliness Did You ever know need Do You remember just how long a night can get? When You were barely holding on And Your friends fall asleep And don't see the blood that's running in Your sweat
Will those who mourn be left uncomforted While You're up there just playing hard to get?
And I know you bore our sorrows And I know you feel our pain And I know it would not hurt any less Even if it could be explained
And I know that I am only lashing out At the One who loves me most And after I figured this, somehow All I really need to know
Is if You who live in eternity Hear the prayers of those of us who live in time We can't see what's ahead And we can not get free of what we've left behind I'm reeling from these voices that keep screaming in my ears All the words of shame and doubt, blame and regret
I can't see how You're leading me unless You've led me here Where I'm lost enough to let myself be led And so You've been here all along I guess It's just Your ways and You are just plain hard to get
Shul, thank you so much. I can't tell you how much your hug and lyrics meant to me just now when I logged on.
I know you have pain now, once again, but don't know the current story.
I'm praying almost constantly at night now, and it helps me to sleep but you know by the end of the day at work it's tear fighting time again.
I wish I knew how long the grieving process was going to last so I could just plan for it.
Kind of like I could say, well the next month is really going to be a wash up, so might as well just block it off right now on the old calendar and shoot for August.
I was reading over on the divorced/dating section where someone said their mom said "look for someone you can't live without, as opposed to someone you can make yourself live without".
Well if that is true he is the one, because I feel like I am dying.
Isn't that pathetic? Well I need to say it here because I sure can't say it to anyone in my real life. They would smack me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I need to go get a marchette and wack down this gigantic patch of mock bamboo which has invaded my yard. I did a search on the internet to find how you could kill it and all I came up with was "you can't kill mock bamboo but you can kill the SOB who planted it" LOL
Last night I stopped by Vons 2 pick up some foodies for the fridge. ...and they had Arrogant [censored] Ale! So, I bought a few. At 7%, I 'spect 2 be all inspired this evening, though I'll probably be at my scope...
ole 2 wrote: . . . and they had Arrogant [censored] Ale! So, I bought a few. At 7%, I 'spect 2 be all inspired this evening, though I'll probably be at my scope...
Hey 2Long, bring us along if you can. Nothing like musing away beneath the constellations with a poetic soul and his alcoholic wanderings. . .
I was going to address some of the other posts on the board today, but my husband just walked in, having arrived home early from work, to take us all out to eat. We debated for a while, he & I about what to get before he quietly got up, shut & locked the door, and then, hands on hips, he says, "Let's have sex first and sort it all out" !!!!!!!
He cracks me up sometimes!
So not only am I getting to spend time with my H tonight, I am also getting SF!
Hey, everybody needed to hear that, huh???
OK. Will talk more later. About to be real busy. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
PS -- I will reveal the reason for this "drastic change" later, SS.
Okay, I'll start off, since I'm in2 my 2nd ABA and NOBODY is listening!
I love the sound of this song:
Simon and Garfunel, "America"
""Let us be lovers we'll marry our fortunes together." "I've got some real estate here in my bag." So we bought a pack of cigarettes and Mrs. Wagner pies And we walked off to look for America
"Kathy," I said as we boarded a Greyhound in Pittsburgh "Michigan seems like a dream to me now" It took me four days to hitchhike from Saginaw I've gone to look for America
Laughing on the bus Playing games with the faces She said the man in the gabardine suit was a spy I said "Be careful his bowtie is really a camera"
"Toss me a cigarette, I think there's one in my raincoat" "We smoked the last one an hour ago" So I looked at the scenery, she read her magazine And the moon rose over an open field
"Kathy, I'm lost," I said, though I knew she was sleeping I'm empty and aching and I don't know why Counting the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike They've all gone to look for America All gone to look for America All gone to look for America "
Okay, this one's SLH's fault (hey, if our WSs can blame shift, why can't I???) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Paul Simon, "Duncan"
"Couple in the next room Bound to win a prize They’ve been goin’ at it all night long Well I’m tryin’ to get some sleep But these motel walls are cheap Lincoln Duncan is my name And here’s my song, here’s my song
My father was a fisherman My mama was a fisherman’s friend And I was born in the boredom and the chowder So when I reached my prime I left my home in the maritimes Headed down the turnpike for new england, sweet new england
Holes in my confidence Holes in the knees of my jeans I’s left without a penny in my pocket Oo-o wee I’s about as Destituted as a kid could be And I wish I wore a ring So I could hock it. I’d like to hock it
A young girl in a parking lot Was preaching to a crowd Singin' sacred songs and Reading from the bible Well I told her I was lost And she told me all about the pentecost And I seen that girl as the road to my survi-ival
Just later on the very same night When I crept to her tent with a flashlight And my long years of innocence ended Well she took me to the woods sayin’ Here comes somethin’ and it feels so good! And just like a dog I was befriended I was befriended
Oh, oh, what a night Oh what a garden of delight Even now that sweet memory lingers I was playin’ my guitar Lying underneath the stars Just thankin’ the lord for my fingers For my fingers"
What is it that makes us want to suck the marrow out of each lovely bone, to bleed and sap every last bit of quintessence from our relationships?
No matter that I have been ignored, set aside, conquered and completed. No matter. . . anything.
I look upon him now, the man I love. . . bitten mouth, plum-blossomed lips, grey-streaked head wreathed & tousled from my loving, beautiful warrior hands capable and fierce and full of intuition, and heart so uncommon. . . and I am struck motionless. . . immobile in body and spirit.
I could not leave him.
Ever.
Is my soul so starved and hungry for his Love that I would forfeit my own needs, sighing and withering?
He turns over and grasps my knee in his slumber, wresting it to him and cradling it as I sit here and type. His eyes flutter softly like the wings of a finch, and he exhales faintly in whispering conversation of his dreams.
So as the moon smiles down over my shoulder through the blinds, casting long silver ribbons on us both as I warm my bones with the musings of his languishing hands, I realize. . .
Am so impoverished in my Need that I will eagerly devour any crumb of his Attention, no matter how paltry? Or inconsistent? Or sporadic?
And be happy?
I've been in a state of torpidity for so long it just feels good to be Alive again, you know?
I had to put my yung-un to bed. She stayed up waaaay 2 late, skipped her bath, but she's sleeping finally - for awhile now.
I've been vegging out - not going to bed, nor doing anything constructive - or even entertaining.
Sorry I missed you.
I know you're lonely over there on the left coast.
Well, I'm a sinner too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Oh, don't get excited, I just mean I threw all the MB theories (well, not quie all) out the door. I had my W over for pizza this evening. She stayed til almost 8, so that didn't give me much time alone with my sole offspring, but after W left, DD and I went out and caught a firefly or 2, blew some bubbles - then made a batch of muffins ('cause she asked for them)... and it got late pretty quickly.
I've got to get her home by 8 in the morning.
About your dream, 2...
Like somebody said, this is a mechanically difficult scenario. But aren't they all? Dreams, I mean.
My W, as you recall - is 20 years younger. If I were going to have a dream, it would either be her in it, or somebody older. But, I don't have any dreams like that. Mostly in my dreams I'm trying to run somewhere and do something or take care of something and I'm late and .... There's no women in 'em. Once in a long while W is in one of them. That's a nice night. She's never mean in my dreams - although one time, she was driving - and seemed to be running over a bunch of peds - though she didn't do it apurpose and didn't seem to notice. We were going over a bridge into NYC and the bridge probably was closed and there were lots of people walking on it - and she was running over them. They were all watching some kind of parade of ships. It was a dream, OK?
As for yours... I think you like this gal. That's the only thing that's clear. You and me both need to lose a few pounds afore we go running with any young ladies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hi GC. Sorry to trash your thread with this nonsense.
Okay SLH, I'm too tired to absorb that flowery prose. Lemme try again in the morning.
My friend came over and we went for beers. There's a bar in my neighborhood... not a bar-bar, actually like a "bistro". Lah dee dah. Binder's gonna let me have it. But my heavens, I should go there every night. More often than not there's an attractive, interesting woman sitting there, willing to chat me up. But not interested in being a barfly, I only drop in every few weeks.
Tonight we met a couple, or something like a couple, never quite figured that out. Nice people. And the girl is a realtor. Nobody knows more available women than a single female real estate broker, I swear. She wanted me to email her a disgusting photo I told her about, and gave me her card. She was ga-ga for the idea of coming and seeing the band play. She seemed to find me interesting. Maybe she'll come to a show and bring a friend... or maybe she was bombed and hasn't learned to keep her mouth shut when the wine starts talkin'. Haw, haw. What's that Hemingway quotation? "Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut."
So, the fire has died, and y'all have gone night night by now.
Wanna talk dreams? Well, AD, I dream about my wife all the time.
Remember the episode of "The Brady Bunch" where Carol is supposed to sing at church at Xmas, but she loses her voice, then miraculously gets it back just in time for her performance? Last night I dreamed that, but different. Carol had a stroke, and had previously been super-mom. She was debilitated, and though the singing-at-Xmas was a problem, her bigger problem was that she wasn't sure she'd be able to care for her children any more. Then someone wanted to make a movie about her story, but they were casting nubile young women in their early 20s to play her, and she was very annoyed about it. She was a very attractive woman (though she looked nothing like... uh... Florence Henderson), but was no 22-year-old. So anyway, the whole thing happened in this dreary, brown-and-grey, 1970s environment. Ever seen The Ice Storm? It was more like that than the shiny Brady Bunch world. It was a great dream. It took all kinds of detours that I couldn't describe without sounding like a mental patient. It went on and on and on. What fun. The sparrow did make an appearance, naturally. At one point I was hiking near my house, and I stumbled across a canyon, a huge, beautiful canyon. In case you don't know, we don't have canyons in Minnesota. The canyon was lit with this strange but beautiful light, and I knew it would never look this way again. I wanted to photograph it. But first, a woman hiking with her son came along and I talked to them for a bit. Still the view was spectacular. Then the sparrow showed up and distracted me, and after that the light was gone. By the time sparrow went away, this lovely natural wonder had turned into the back end of an industrial area full of loading docks and empty brick buildings.
Heh, heh, dreams can be fun sometimes, though mine are usually no picnic.
GC, you don't have to comment on my post, I was just venting, I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Just a realization that I am infinitely more pathetic than I dared give myself credit for, that is all.
What do you think the dream means? Do they all have a common thread, beyond the Sparrow? I'm no dream expert by any means, and I don't know all the facets of your life but some of what you describe just makes sense, in some form.
AD, why were you blushing? Even geezers need lovin'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Haw haw.
:: grabbin my cane and shufflin' off to take morning sundry of pharmaceuticals ::
Never a bunch of Bradys did I watch. I'm not much of a tv-hound. But, My Favorite Martian!. Oooh, I loved that when I was a kid.
In first run, it came on Sunday night, and sometimes Dad and I didn't go to church on Sunday nights - although, in general, we were a morning and night church family. I remember Dad would be dozing off and I would be watching "My Favorite Martian"... smoke from the ears and all. Then, Mom and the others would come home and we would eat dinner. We always had "breakfast" on Sunday nights - eggs, sausage, grits - maybe pancakes. Its a good memory - makes me miss my Dad - and childhood too. Sometimes I think I was never a child. Anyways I've got to start eating grits again. I'd better leave out the eggs and sausage. See how my mind works? (not that anybody cares) 2 mentions Martians and I end up thinking grits. You guys ever eat grits? Maybe no matter what anybody mentions, it always ends up back at food.
GC, I don't have any idea what your dreams mean. I'm guessing this canyon looked like the place where the elves live in LOTR.
hmmm. Brady Bunch and bars??? Strange combo. I don't do either of them. Is something wrong with me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
As for Hemmingway's quote. I've done everything sober that I ever said I would do drunk. (but, since I don't drink, that was easy)
There's a radio show called "The Dream Doctor" or something where this fella analyzes dreams. There's not much to it really. He just goes fishing and makes guesses about his callers' lives until something sticks. Fun to hear people describe their own dreams though.
I don't get it. How could a person exist without having watched "The Brady Bunch"? Hm. People in my generation saw it on TV every day after school, at least before cable.
He just goes fishing and makes guesses about his callers' lives until something sticks.
That's probably how your dream makes sense to me -- I only know bits and pieces of your life, you know? And right now, it's only the latter part I can begin to fathom. . .
AD, yours does too, kinda. . . with the little I know.
But who,really wants to have their innermost thoughts revealed to themselves and everyone? Sometimes it's better to live in a happy oblivion, eh?
Remember. . . I'm not a doctor, I only play one on TV. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
I'm not hiding, just resting. I worked my butt off on the house today. I also wimped out and stuck the air conditioner in my bedroom window. I caved. I've had too many sleepless nights lately.
I was out of beers. My friend Amelia the pilot came over for a bit. She donated five beers to the GC Fund, bless her heart.
...sleeping bag...deck chair...mosquito repellant...guitar..a bag of smokeys I found in the back of the freezer if anyone is hungry , coffee and the makings for paralyzers for those who need it...
Ok. what are we looking at up there tonight, 2long?
Gray, it was such a good day. There was a bad scene but we worked it out .
It is a beautiful night here and I wish you all could feel how I feel right now.
I am peaceful, happy even, and I want to savor this moment.
We had a bad scene here a couple of weeks ago, and I threw him out. He is back, but with the agreement that there must be no violence, ever again.
So it is more what didn't happen.
We had a tense morning , (no clean socks and the power was out, so no coffee or breakfast) He went off to work in a huff, but then called me on his way to say "I love you and I'm sorry for being an [censored]. I appreciate everything you do for me."
He didn't yell, or swear or call me names. No door slamming even. He came back straight from work and didn't call or see ow. Hasn't seen her for a couple of weeks. Doesn't answer her calls.
(shuls version, with apologies to Billie and Ella ...)
'My love must be a kind of blind love, I can't see anyone but you And dear, I wonder if you find love, an optical illusion, too?
Are the stars out tonight? I don't know if it's cloudy or bright cause I only have eyes for you.
The moon may be high, but I can't see a thing in the sky, cause I only have eyes for you.
I don't know if we're in a garden, or on a crowded avenue. You are here, so am I. Maybe millions of people go by but they all disappear from view, and I only have eyes for you.'
I'm glad you're happy tonight. This evening, in the midst of chaos (my home improvement projects) I spent some time trying to create a few small pockets of sanity in my otherwise dismantled house. I'm still at it, but taking a break to post and listen to John Coltrane. Now in case anybody should think I'm posing and trying to be cool with my groovy taste in 60s jazz music... I also listened to Simon & Garfunkel tonight. 2long, "America" is such a good song. I listened to S&G's Greatest Hits record a lot when I was a kid. Back then, "The Boxer" and "I Am a Rock" were my favorites, no contest.
Mr. John is almost done. It's ALL VINYL tonight. I have an okay collection... not great... but not bad either. Maybe 100 records.
Maybe I should put on some silly 80s rock. I have a little. A few Van Halen records, mainly. I was GA-GA for Van Halen when I was in Jr. High. I still love the David Lee Roth stuff.
Coltrane...you are a man after my own heart, Gray.
(He refuses counseling, but I have a devious plan...)
This one is for slh:
'Ooh-oo child Things are gonna get easier Ooh-oo child Things'll get brighter Ooh-oo child Things are gonna get easier Ooh-oo child Things'll get brighter Some day, yeah We'll get it together and we'll get it all done Some day When your head is much lighter Some day, yeah We'll walk in the rays of a beautiful sun Some day When the world is much brighter Ooh-oo child Things are gonna be easier Ooh-oo child Things'll get be brighter Ooh-oo child Things are gonna be easier Ooh-oo child Things'll get be brighter Some day, yeah We'll get it together and we'll get it all done Some day When your head is much lighter Some day, yeah We'll walk in the rays of a beautiful sun Some day When the world is much brighter Some day, yeah We'll get it together and we'll get it all done Some day When your head is much lighter Some day, yeah We'll walk in the rays of a beautiful sun Some day When the world is much brighter Ooh-oo child Things are gonna get easier Ooh-oo child Things'll get brighter Ooh-oo child Things are gonna get easier Ooh-oo child Things'll get brighter Right now, right now (you just wait and see how things are gonna be)'
Seeing was pretty steady earlier, so I shot a bunch of vids for later processing. Now, it's all wiggly. Jupiter looks like a jellyfish on the screen...
Do you have all those on your computer? We need to get together and swap mp3s. I like your taste in tunes.
I think I have every Billie and Ella ever sung.
Though I do not do "do [censored]". In no way shape or form. :: sigh :: Too 50's. I do 20s,30s, 40s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and now, but I detest the 50's with some exceptions.
My H worked for NASA for a while and designed flight hardware for the astronauts. I used to love taliking with him about astronomy, space, etc. I'd love to see some pics if you have them on a site.
We could pretend we were really there, and not stuck inside.
The moon and stars are hiding from me tonight. I need a drink.
SLH, it's not a doo-[censored] version of the tune. It's got a plinky piano part, and the background singers say something that sounds a little like "doo-[censored]-doo-[censored]", like...
(doo-[censored]-doo-[censored]) You are here... (doo-[censored]-doo-[censored]) And so am I...
It's super cool.
The only doo-[censored] I really go for is Frank Zappa's.
Oh, man. 2long... the '88 band did a version of Zombie Woof that blows the mind.
I heard the later bands before I heard the old stuff.
Overnite Sensation is a desert island record. The Captain Beefheart record, the live one, kills. The first two Mothers records are impossibly good. It's a freakin' goldmine, his catalog.
Mmmmm. . . not bad, Gray. I could like that. Just none of that bee-bop, doo-[censored] 50's stuff, please. I cannot stomach it.
what else you got, Shul?
C'mon, 2! Give us something! Can you make an anonymous album sometime?
Got any more Arrogant [censored] Ale? I think I wanna try some. I am out of Johnnie Walker Black tonight. I had to use the last of it to put down one of my fish. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Yes, go ahead and laugh. I am laughing thinking about it, LOLOLOL!
2long... I started building a Dobson 12" long, long ago and never finished. Should I? I think a 12" Newtonian is a little ridiculous now. I couldn't take it anywhere! Maybe a 6" would make more sense. It would be fun to have around, even though I'm no astronomer.
I am having a flashback. Yellow Dog T-shirt/ bare feet/hookah pipe...
'I done ran into my baby and fin'lly found my old blue jean. I done ran into my baby and fin'lly found my old blue jean. Well, I could tell that they was mine from the oil and the gasoline.
If I ever get back my blue jean, Lord, how happy could one man be. If I ever get back my blue jean, Lord, how happy could one man be. 'Cause if I get back those blue jean you know, my baby be bringin' 'em home to me
I've got a mirror for an 8" S-C with a very short focal length. (Military R&D surplus my Dad scarfed years ago). I've got the tube too (with a ring in it for the secondary), but no secondary and no corrector plate. I tried to figure out what the thing is, and it looked parabolic to my very ignorant eyes - using an old (30's, 40's?) "Scientific American, build your own scope" book for reference. In that case it doesn't need a corrector plate, right? Also it seems to be f1.5, although it is marked f2.5 on the back - which I'm guessing is why it was thrown out.
Gadzooks, my internet connection keeps dropping out for several minutes at a time (I can tell, because I've got 3 computers connected at the same time!).
My dad got a good laugh when my beard started 2rning gray about 40.
His wasn't gray until he was about 65 or 70 - but then my mom wouldn't let him grow one until then (she never liked it even then), so I have no idea when it would've 2rned.
In a few years, I'll just have 2 bleach my hair 2 be Santa over Christmas!
I'm just .... sitting here when I should be sleeping.
It's 1:30am again.
2Long, I fiddled with that mirror about 10 years ago and had this old book on how to build a scope - which was just a rebound version of some old Scientific American articles as I recall. I tried to figure out what it was - whether spherical or parabolic or what - and focal length. Could be I got it wrong. From what I read, if it was casagrain, it should have been a spherical primary - but it looked parabolic using some test that I got out of the book - featureing a slit between two razor-blades and a point light source and ... I don't remember. Ignorant, I am, about this stuff.
So, it's an 8 inch mirror with a 2" hole in it - with a nice tube to mount it in - but no secondary. I understood that the secondary needs to be an "outy" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> etc. Oh, now I'm embarrassed by my ignorance.
If it's parabolic, it could be a true cassegrain (which has a parabolic primary and hyperbolic secondary (I think)). I didn't grind my mirrors for my Cass, I bought them from a great optician friend I've known for a long time.
So, if it's a classical cass, all you'd need would be 2 have someone make a 2ndary for it (which might not be easy or cheap, mind you). If it's a Schmidt Cass (not likely if it's that old), you're looking at needing a 2ndary AND a corrector, which would likely make it not worthwhile.
You could advertise it on astromart.com classifieds. I bought my 9.25" through one of those ads.
Probably I should just put it up on E*bay or whereever and be rid of it. But it would sure help to be able to describe it accurately.
My Dad worked in a place I called the "death ray group". I don't know what they really did, but they were inside a secure area which was inside another secure area - with guards at the gate house at each fence. Dad was a pack-rat and had several secret storage rooms out there that he packed with stuff that was supposed to be thrown away. People knew he had that, and if they needed something of the kind he usually kept, they would ask him. Sometimes he brought things home - and that's where this apparently came from. I think it was ordered custom-made and was ground to the wrong focal lenght, so they just threw it away.
I just realized you were referring 2 the article when you said 30's or 40's.
Okay, thinking about this some, it must have been a Cass of some sort, or it wouldn't have a perforated primary (schmidt cameras don't, as they weren't made 2 look through). Also, if the f/ratio is that short, it most likely was a Schmidt Cass primary. And the only company that made those commercially (possibly also for the military - most telescope makers did a bit of that during the 50's and 60's) before 1982 or so was Celestron. What color is the tube? If it's orange, it's almost certainly a mid-70's to mid 80's Celestron. If it's baby blue, it's an early Celestron - from the late 60's or early 70's.
Criterion (Baush and Lomb) made one for a while, but the ones I've seen are junk optically and mechanically. And Meade Instruments started making them in about 1982, with a dark blue tube.
The tube is military grey. It was custom made for an Army R&D project.
I'm guessing it was made in the 80's - in the last years of Dad's employment. His group, I think was on some kind of SDI R&D assignment. It was probably intended to be a spotting scope for use on a test range. That's my best guess.
I just wanted to let everyone know I think I am back to my old self again. Managed to climb out of that deep, dark hole and I think I am going to be okay. Atleast I've got about a day and half of decent low keyed, even keeled happiness going so far. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Went and bought a new bed and bedroom set today. Nothing top of the line, but it is decent.
And as soon as I pay off the contractor after siding that house I am about out of money. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Oh well.
Got four movies for the weekend, Aviator, Phantom of the Opera, Ray and Ocean's 12.
Well I'm sure I'm boring ya'll senseless, but I've got no one to talk to this weekend. Everyone seems to have a life or something around here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
If I fall back in that hole, just ignore me, kay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, I am here for a few minutes. I posted in Idiotville this morning that we are going to try for recovery. One last shot, KWIM? I told him if he blows this I will die on the spot, LOL
This time he wants to be faithful and he wants the M. Prayers would be appreciated.
Thank you Weaver. I was half serious when I said I would die on the spot if he did it again. This is a huge leap of faith on my part but I will never forgive myself if I don't give my kids (and myself) one more chance to have a happy family. That is why I understood when you tried one last time with your ex. {{Weaver}} glad you are back, you are such a special person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
FF - guard your open heart. Be ready to batten down the hatches if you need to, if you can.
I will GC, you know I can't go through this again. I may end up feeling like a fool but then I can honestly tell my DD I tried everything. He is remorseful and he WANTS this, it is not me pushing this time. Not cancelling the D, just postponing it.
Seeing is not that great (wasn't as good as I thought last night either), but there's a satellite shadow going across the planet, and that's always fun 2 watch...
I'm not a bar person. I thought about going to the bookstore/cafe - but then I remembered they close earlier and earlier now. Don't know why. Usta be open til midnight, then 11. Maybe it's 10 now.
Its grad party night up here and it can get pretty wild. I know the second I fall asleep they will show up wanting rooms or doing burnouts in the parking lot.
I have made a Very Important Discovery today. Did you know that there are such things as diet chocolate bars?
This must be the place to come to and ponder for awhile while watching the fire burn.
I actually worked today around the house. That's monumental for me.
I'll toast you a marshmellow J... and btw I did happen over to the other website you are involved in and read your daffodil post. It has stuck in my mind since! One bulb at a time. I like that.
We had smores here at home today because DD wanted them. Yuck! Way too sweet, not like I remembered. sigh...growing up means losing some of your sweet tooth.
AD, you want my story? It's not really in one place. But I'm feeling awfully blue tonight, so maybe I'll type out the quickest version I can.
Early 2004. I was busy. The sparrow was busy. We had some tension between us over the house we'd bought in 2003, our first. Sparrow was traveling for work often.
She started an EA with the tinman, a coworker. It ended. She moped and complained while I tried to hold things together. The tinman had moved on to another job. He'd just found out his wife, car4love (who is my friend, and has registered but never posted here) was pregnant. After about four weeks, the sparrow gave up on me, and she and tinman started up for keeps, went into fully-blown, f***ing in my bed, asking for divorces, affair mode. They probably think it was special.
She moved out. I sunk into depression, and got on ADs. We met a few times. I was kind, open, and never disagreeable. She was in some turmoil, but not enough to keep her from treating me with amazing insensitivity and cruelty.
I tried to reach out to her without being desperate. I tried to show her that a life with me would be happy and safe. I showed her that I knew she was hurting too, and that I wanted to ease her suffering. I was a freakin' superstar at plan A. I was the valedictorian. But it didn't matter.
We spoke in mid-July. She was still uncertain, probably because the tinman had made gestures toward getting back with car4love, but didn't have enough courage to end the affair.
Less than two weeks later, three days before our 10th anniversary, the sparrow had me served.
The next time we spoke was in mid-September. She was coming to get more of her things. I let her have it. I gave her about 15 minutes of righteous indignance. Once I started, I couldn't stop until I'd said my piece. It didn't matter.
A few weeks later, I heard that the tinman had introduced his daughter, a three-year-old, to the sparrow. They were starting to pretend to be a family. I went to plan B. Too much pain for too long. I'd been suffering for almost six months, and had aged ten years I think. I couldn't do it any more. I had fought with every ounce of my soul, and it didn't matter.
Sparrow didn't file for divorce until January, just after car4love had her baby, a boy.
In early March the sparrow and tinman officially shacked up, though they'd been, for practical purposes, living together for months by then.
In the divorce negotiations, the sparrow consistently made unreasonable demands, refused my various offers for a settlement without modifying her demands at all, and made life continue to be miserable every chance she got. I stuck to my plan. I have not spoken to her since I went to plan B, and I've only seen her twice, in court. Oh, and a couple of times in her car.
Finally, on May 17, a full year after the A had begun, we had a D settlement.
I'll be divorced any day now. Maybe tomorrow, who knows?
I'm not attached to the sparrow anymore, but I still grieve. We were a very good couple. People were amazed when they heard. Many people have said to me, "If you two can't make it, then how can anybody?"
I'm trying not to stay shackled to my pain, trying not to cherish it too much, but lots of things trigger stretches of deep sadness.
I feel ancient. I feel like there's something I need to do to put this all to rest. I hate that I won't associate with the sparrow again. It makes me terribly sad to think of the person she's become.
AD, we have no children. That particular bit--the sparrow fighting to destroy a family and jeopardize the health and life of a pregnant woman and her unborn child--shows how unspeakably cruel, selfish, and soulless my wife has become. It breaks my heart. The sparrow and tinman destroyed two loving families to create a new one steeped in betrayal and misery.
"Beware institutions begun with a purge."
AD, my 11th wedding anniversary is next month. I'm about to become a 34-year-old bachelor.
Ok GC, before you get me sinking into the depresive state too, I just got back from the cabin...wet and muddy muddy muddy this weekend. I needed to take the pressure washer to the kids.
Let's get away from the A talk.....let's talk about window treatments at the bistro you were at. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Otherwise....did you email that realtor? That was a pretty blatant invitation in my books.
I met her here. She was here as a student when I met her. She's not an "internet bride",
...but I've been thinking that my fondness for Russian things is going to get me in trouble in a subsequent relationship - unless the future lady has herself some Russian connection.
I know the problems - since we have amongst our aquaintance a number of Russian/American couples - some of whom used the fiance-visa route. The main problems with that are : 1) Not enough together time to really get to know each other prior to marriage. 2) Unrealistic expectations on the Russian side. (USA is not heaven)
But, unless I want to give up everything Russian, I can imagine problems downstream. I know a man who's first wife was Japanese. He was a student in Japan. He has two kids from his first marraige. Now, 20 years into his second marriage, I think he still has a problem in that his X calls and talks to him in Japanese on the phone - or some old friend from Japan calls. So, his (current) wife is overhearing this and is totally on the outside - which stinks for her. Recently, his daughter got married in Japan, and there was a flurry of phone calls from various and sundry connected with that - and I know it hurt his present wife.
I say all that to say that maybe (God help me) I should actually look for another Russian. I told my W once that "I never met a Russian woman I like". Sometimes I feel like that, LOL.
But if you want to look, old man try "bride dot R U" (.ru).
Man, seriously, I'm 47 - and wanting more kids. Nuts, huh?
Shaddup, binder! But yeah yeah, let's dump the A talk.
I emailed the realtor Friday evening. So far, she hasn't replied. She's cute, but she's not my type, and she was with a guy she seems quite interested in. But I'm sure she has a million friends.
Binder, be careful about taking your pressure washer to the kids. They're awfully vulnerable, and they're the only pair you'll ever have.
Curious Gray.....your boundaries with women as a still married man. How are you approaching it? I've been out with "the boys" a few times and sense a level of aggressiveness in the female population that I have never sensed before. Of course I have not been single for nearly 20 years and do not know whether to attribute it to changing times or different demographics I run in now. What would you say to a woman that had piqued your interest and becomes "aggressive"?
Oh…and the pressure washer worked much better than the spinning brushes on the little tykes…..they didn’t like those much.
Binder, I was referring to the only pair you'll ever have, the ones you were born with. Keep the pressure washer off 'em!
Okay, my boundaries? I'm going to be divorced any second. All the paperwork is filed. The sparrow is not going to show up at my door and ask me to forgive her and take her back. Not a chance. I've been grieving and fighting to save my marriage for over a year.
You may remember I made a couple of attempts to date several weeks ago. Both attempts completely bombed.
My impression of the women out there, so far, is not that they're aggressive. They seem terribly guarded to me. If a woman I was attracted to started chasing me, I would go for it. I don't have to marry anybody, right?
Maybe you need to elaborate. Give me an example. Are you thinking about your little skirmish with the bar girl?
Well, I had a look at the "over 30" group and many of them seemed like interesting people. I'm still married, so I didn't save any bookmarks or sign-up or anything. It's just nice to know that there are possibilities. The strange thing is, I'm absolutely certain that if I want to marry again, I can. At the same, time I'm almost as certain that I'll end up right back where I am now. But, I think that this fatalism should be laid aside.
GC, I'm 13 years older than you - and in 13 years, I'll be 60. I don't want to look back from 60 and say "I shoulda tried." Whichever way I have to go, I'm not going to live the rest of my life alone - and I may, if God is very good to me, have more kids. Will I "end up" happy? Who knows, but if I don't do anything I'll end up dead. If I do "do something", I'll still end up dead, but at least I'll have adventures.
GC - I've seen "the Birthday Girl". Pretty interesting movie. And 34 is NOT ANCIENT. I'm 38, now for a woman in modern day botoxed-world context, wldn't that be "ancient"?!!!
AD -- there are some "OLDER" men out there who are still pretty good catches, I have to say. It prob depends on outlook... I think generally, people are attracted to people who are happy about themselves and have this aura abt them. Regardless of age!
Geez...over my head on "the pair"......sorry, wit took a break on me there. Must be another sign of age....~sigh~.
OK....using you as a sounding board and trying to see if I'm comfortable with present philosophy and comparing it to others.
Bar girl has not called anymore ...more to the story, but nothing I will share in a public forum.
Fast forward to last Friday. I was at the pub (not a bistro...by the way, did it even have urinals?) with some friends from work. Over comes this woman who dated one of my coworkers years ago. I'd like to say I was attracted to her clever conversation and wit, but in reality it was her black dress and how she filled it out. A bombshell.
We were just leaving and I knew I'd likely not see her again. Soooo, getting bold in my old age I gave her my card and said I'd like to chat sometime. Thinking it a long shot at best I didn't give it much more thought, but low and behold on Mon. morning I find a message from her in my account. She's 32, educated and a single mom of a 10 yr. old.
We've been emailing clever messages back and forth including some humorous clips and commercials...the usual stuff that flies between offices. We even met for a beer. Well after that meeting the messages she's sent me have been getting progressively racier to the point of outright pornographic….I mean really pornographic. Stuff I'd never keep on my computer! I'm a little scared....and that's hard to do!
I've already decided that until I'm divorced I won’t be getting physical with anybody. I get the impression that she's not used to hearing "no" and I find myself hoping that I hear from my lawyer that the deal is done so I don’t have to.
I know that the solution is to simply avoid the situation. I’ve permitted myself to develop friendships now, but I’m starting to feel even that has it’s pitfalls. I’m 41 yr. old man and feeling like I’m in friggin High School again…...as a girl!!
Binder, I think I get it. Something gets started, and it turns into naughty sexy fun before you have a real feeling for the person. Pretty soon you're in a sexual relationship and you don't even know how much you like this person.
I don't want to hurt anyone, and I don't want to enter into any situations that make me feel like there's not much meaning to my life.
Here's to hoping I have these kinds of worries soon.
Yeah.....sorta like the hangover from cheap wine.....is it worth it. I'm not looking for a relationship per se after the divorce. I also know that rebounding into one is not healthy.
I want to be single, celebrate it, embrace it and conquer it. This is not really what I had in mind though.
You said it best weeks ago: "Chicks"
Anyways, I'm hitting the sack, gotta get my son to school in the morning and have to stop by work for a quick meeting though it's my day off.
Well, I had 2 work 2day - big meeting 2morrow - then review a 2ple things 2night before hitting the sack and getting up early in the morning...
just finished.
Binder:
Do what I did (but for different reasons) when a woman sends you racy jokes and stuff in emails. I would send jokes like that back, but cc other people, so it's not between us 2 only. She'll get the hint, and it won't necessarily put her off in the process (and maybe it'll just slow things up a bit so you CAN be a "free man" when the time is right!).
Graycloud, and Binder, You guys are way over my head. (because I ducked)
SLH, Tell me why things changed. I caught that one sentence.
I thought about you while I was at camp. Late at night I saw the moon. A silver orb, seemingly tossed by the wind, framed by the clouds. (though it was the clouds that moved, not the moon.) Sometimes the world almost seems like a dream, we forget our worries, and float on the wind ourselves. The magic of life is best shared with a lover, you feel you are loosing yours.
I wondered how a poet married a scientist, and if she knew what she was getting into.
Then I thought it was probably better than two poets, if the poet and the scientist can learn to communicate.
"Starless and Bible Black", specifically: a hard driving, screaming distorted guitars and heavy drums instrumental on the flip side of the "Starless and Bible Black" album.
I get the feeling that half the communication on this thread is through some back-channel. I havent' the foggiest what you good folks are talking about. Some kinda music and beer's all I could tell.
I'm a musical ignoramus and I don't drink, so that could explain it.
But just so I can impress somebody, if I'm ever in a situation where I have to order beer, I'll order "Cooper's triple-x Stout". Would it work, do you think (to impress anybody). <I would put one of those little smiley's here, but all of them look so *&^%@! feminin. We need some manly smileys!>
OK...who took the last bit of paper from the outhouse and didn't replace the roll! Wasn't even an old Eatons catologue in there.
Anyways, SS I'm sure you're getting ready for the Canada Day celebration this weekend....aren't you. This city is going to be nuts....the Bare Naked Ladies et al. playing at the stadium, various venues with large crowds, all converging on "The Ave" to tangle with the riot troup after midnight. Should be an interesting weekend.
SS, I think it stands for sweetly soft <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Doing ok, don't know if you saw me post to Weaver that we are going to try again. He WANTS to be faithful to me. Big change from not sure if he CAN. We have loads of work to do, especially him on personal and marital boundaries but right now things are sweet.
So I started painting my fireplace tonight. See, back in the 1950s or 1960s, it was not fashionable for things to look real I guess, so the original owners painted the fireplace white. Bleah! Not for me. So I've spent the last two years trying to get the paint off. I tried every paint stripper in existence. I tried fire, acid, sandblasting, and lye. I tried it all. Nothing did it. Finally I was going to demo the thing and just make a new one, but you know what? The way I do stuff, it would take forever.
So I'm painting the bricks in a way that makes them look like bricks. It's tricky, but it's working. Binder, have at me.
I've been listening to whiny Brit-pop all night. Help me!
You drove all the way down 2 gc's just 2 carve a twister?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
We have a station here called CKUA that is similar to yours. It plays a huge variety of music. I once heard the Benzadrine Monks do a gregorian chant to Rod Stewarts "If you want my body" on there.
Painting the fireplace I understand. But, if it were me, I'd just give up and paint it back white again. I've got a brick-colored one (huge). I've been thinking of ripping it out - as it's on the south (outside) wall of a rather dark room - which would be amazingly transformed by 10 feet of windows where all that brick is right now. I rarely use it anyway. Somebody broke in the house last year and stole my fireplace doors (believe it or not). They were 20 years old, apparently solid brass with nice tempered glass. But who would steal that?! They wouldn't fit anybody else's fireplace. I think there was just about nothing else here to steal at the time - except maybe the water heater.
I saw two ladies on Home and Garden channel (show called Weekend Warriers), who dressed up a brick fireplace wondefully. They panneled over the part above the mantle with white panelling with lots of mouldings, and below the mantle, they faced the thing with granite and matching granite on the hearth, with more white-mouldings and such as a skirt around the hearth. The granite was just the same as is used for countertops. It looked really nice and the polished granite hearth reflected the flames. Much classier than bare brick.
I'm fully committed to the painting, AD. I've put lots of time into it, and soon I'll be done. I need to get this project checked off so I can move on.
Fellas, "Dry Your Eyes Mate" is an anthem for fellas who get cheated on.
Of course you're fully committed, then some jerk (AD) comes along and sez, "why didn't you do it like this". Sorry. I've got to kill the Cliff Claven in me, LOL.
You know I met him at a Smiths concert in Dallas. He's a horse's [censored]. I can't even listen to Smiths now. He ruined it for me. Oh, and vegan, I don't eat anything with a face MY [censored]!!
Hi SLH! I've just been reading your beautiful prose. Can't one up you, so I will compliment you... on your words. You are wonderful you know.
Faith,
I've been including you and casey every single day in my prayers and of course I think I have a direct line, so all must be well. Right?
I'm only on here for a sec cuz DD is home for a couple of days, and I must go. But want to give you a big hug and say I am thinking of you so much these past few days, and hoping you are happy. (or close to happy?)
You sweeties! Some of it is touchy and I don't want to leave it on the board too long unedited, which is why I want SS nearby when it's posted. Capice? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Weaves, what a sweet thing to say. I love to write but haven't posted much of my real poetry/prose because some of it is either too booooo-ring for the men folk here or to *ahem* for anyone, anyhow. (Remember AD blushing?) Maybe I'll put some on the Poetry board with a warning label on it. . . that is, if it's permissable, LOL!
You guys are all in my prayers too. . . i luvs yous all!
Oh who cares about the men folk here? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Did you read what THEY were talking about last night????? Good grief, they neeeeed to read your stuff SLH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I've been including you and casey every single day in my prayers and of course I think I have a direct line, so all must be well. Right?
I'm only on here for a sec cuz DD is home for a couple of days, and I must go. But want to give you a big hug and say I am thinking of you so much these past few days, and hoping you are happy. (or close to happy?)
Weaver, thanks for the prayers. Casey and I are doing pretty well. Yes, I am close to happy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Trying to guard my heart at the same time, KWIM?
I was just blushing a little. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> You posted, and I suppose when somebody posts, they want a response - but I didn't have anytbing to say about that subject (a boundary of mine perhaps?), but I wanted you to know that I read.
I was reading what you were posting last night, and even though you are not a beer guzzling fool (like some lol) and even though you are sort of the bookish sort, and your taste in music runs more along gospel types...you are who you are.
And don't you see that is what makes you "kool"? You are so unique in who you are, and you are not afraid to be that person.
SLH, since you can't leave it up and I have to leave can you email it to me? It's ok if you don't but I have been soooo worried about you lately. I almost called you out today but then saw you were posting again. Kimmy, you have mail.
Weaver, enjoy your DD and prayers for you too!
AD, go bake some cookies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Really, most of the time I know who I am - and I'm old enough to be comfortable with that. I don't have to pretend to be somebody else. But thanks for the encouraging words.
I was concerned, not having heard from you in a few days. I'm pleased to see you were enjoying some time for yourself, at the camp, communing with Luna. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sounds like you had a good time.
I can't believe you found that one line under all of those posts!
You're an extraordinary man, SS.
You ask how a Poet could marry a Scientist. . . and I smile as I ponder that, because he may also be a Scientist, but he is a Poet, first . . . far more of a poet than I, in fact. And it is the Poet that I fell in love with. The Poet in him spurs him to change the world and he's got some flaw that prevents him from realizing that he can only put so much weight on his shoulders. His obsession to make things better has ironically mowed down the joys in his life and I'm trying to save him from saving the world.
I just want him to save our marriage instead.
Thanks Faithful, Weaver, Kimster for your concern, too. You know I love you!! Here's my update as promised. . .
So what happened? Two things.
One. He saw his doctor. . . *edit*
Two. I sat him down (balking, hackling, gritting teeth -- him, not me, lol). Told him we needed to institute drastic changes by September, have goals set, reduce his stress level, so he can enjoy his family like he used to. Why September? he asked. Because I would be leaving by then, getting an apartment, etc., I answered. I was careful to stress that this was not my wish at all but that I felt I was left no option. I was not getting any of my needs met by him -- not due to his blatant, intentional negligence, but due to his perverse obsession with working and then working harder and harder to make things better in hopes someone woukd recognize him and reward him his efforts. Well, I said, the money was not worth it. What good was a decent (expensive) school system for our kids if their parents weren't together?
For the first time in a long time he really looked at me. Looked at me and saw that I meant exactly what I said. I'd leave if I didn't see some changes.
THAT got his attention.
That night, we began to draw up a game plan, with both short- and long-term goals including looking for other jobs (yes, in other states!) and houses, etc. i only hope there is continued fuel for this fire in that he doesn't lose incentive. . . though I do know that he is irrefutabley sick sick sick of working as hard and as much as he is now. He is just weary, and cannot go on as he was. As we were.
Hopefully, this combination of things will change our sitch for the better. . .time will tell!
As I have said to your atleast five times now, my little bro lives in SAT with his wife. And as soon as his wife, who has ovarian cancer goes into remission again, I am going to go to SAT. And while there I am going to LOOK YOU UP!
Did you see I went to Foxfire country on my vacation?
Well the whole trip was overshadowed by my "dunkin'" as Gray put it, but it was stil unbelievably, breathtakingly awsome in dem dar mountains!
All that work - looking for recongnition would tend to indicate that your H has admiration as his #1 EN. So, for you that means No criticism No blaming No controlling NO DJ's
Aren't they Weav? Did you stop at any rock shops? I LOVE rock shops!!! LOVE THEM!!! LOVE THEM!!!
I also love blueberry stands in the summer....then blueberry pancakes the next morning. And apple cider stands...ice cold and pulpy....
Weav - it's [email]niosgirl@yahoo.com.[/email] I'll give you all details of where's and numbers and stuff. Come during Fiesta and I'll buy the first gorditas!
You can butt in anytime, AD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
AD, Admiration *IS* either his #1 or #2 EN -- and believe me, I have tried -- plan A'ed him for months and we had no affair -- but there has been a long history of unmet needs on his part towards me, with my doing everything in my power to accomodate him, for months on end, and it has finally gotten old. That is why I gave him the timeline/ultimatum.
Our marriage is more important to me than living in some "perfect" school district where he has to work 2 jobs just to live in a 39 year old house with foundation cracks, bad wiring, and broken plumbing plus $3,000 worth of taxes for the ISDs each year. We've tried it. It doesn't work.
I long for a normal life with a family where the H comes home after 5 and on weekends and where we can meet our bills with some normalcy. And I am no overspender, believe me.
That's all I want. An H who is emotionally available to me because he is not overstressed, overworked, etc. And I don't have that now, and haven't had that, despite the MANY long talks I have had with him. My ultimatum to him was given on advice from those who'd read my thread and knew there was nothing else that was going to get the man's attention.
It was a last ditch effort; not one I'd happily do but one I'd do to get his attention. Remember the overweight housewife in HNHN? NOTHING would get her to lose weight. The husband begged and pleaded, as it was one of his top ENs. But the wife was oblivious. So, in order to get her to lose the weight, Harley finally recommended the husband had to move out until she lost X lbs. Same principle. In order to get H to recognize that I am serious about my needs being met, about our marriage being important enough to invest time and energy into (even if it means moving to a different area) I would move out.
Now I just need us both to follow through with our goals.
Kimster, what jobs are there in the Aerospace, Mechanical or Petroleum industry there?? Have any networks? I'd LOVE to move there!!!!!!!
How far is the ocean from where you are? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
We're 2 hours from the salt water. 15 min from Schlitterbahn, tho!
try www.mysanantonio.com for jobs. We've gotten Toyota moved here....a couple of other fortune 500 co.s are looking here, too. Of course there is always a civil job on one of the bases ... Lackland AFB is here.
Petroleum...well, of course you'd be better off in the Corpus area...but that's not far away...and I gotta go thru there to see the 'rents. (hehe)
That night, we began to draw up a game plan, with both short- and long-term goals including looking for other jobs (yes, in other states!) and houses, etc. i only hope there is continued fuel for this fire in that he doesn't lose incentive. . . though I do know that he is irrefutabley sick sick sick of working as hard and as much as he is now. He is just weary, and cannot go on as he was. As we were.
You did a good job, girlie. I too am very proud of you! You were calm, caring and yet firm. Wow! Can you send me your spine when you are done with it?
I still think about my wife, not oh god I miss her so much, but the usual questions about who she's become, who she thinks she's become, what kind of person can do what she's done, what's the future hold for her, how can she be at peace with what's happened, that kinda stuff.
I wish this would go away. It follows me everywhere. My idle moments are filled with it. I need to forgive her, and I want to, but I can't do it. Others don't seem this agonized. What's my problem?
Okay, that's off my chest. Back to the rest of y'all.
We are both sitting here in bed, on our respective tablets (our one guilty pleasure each *smile*), Ti looking up job stuff on Monster and me browsing MB. Progress! Thank you all so much for your support and well wishes with this issue -- it means so very much. We have a long way to go but I am hoping that this is a New Beginning for us.
Anyone know where they are hiring Aero, Mechanical or Petro Engineers? I've got a genius for a husband. . . really. . .
FF , are you getting some sleep tonight? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS , is your father okay? You rarely mention him; I wasn't aware you lived near him. That's neat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I miss mine like crazy (he's one state over).
Gray, just 'cause others don't seem so agonized doesn't mean they aren't.
Maybe some of them are just better at disguising their wounds than you? . . .Perhaps some of them are not as capable of looking at themselves with such brutal honesty as you are? The Nile, eh?
But that doesn't mean it isn't there. . .(for some).
Not that you don't need to work thru it. . . Remember what I said about Resentment? It's like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die?
What have you done to arrest these emotions, to get beyond them? I know you know that up to a point they are normal. But beyond that, Hon, you are hurting yourself.
SLH, I bet this project of y'alls (that's a word, right?) turns into fun.
LOL, GC.
Well, I can promise you this -- I shall not inflict upon us all any more "reflective thoughts" in the form of lyrical prose to further embarass the tender hearts among us. *very big grin* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'll just say --
*ahem* and everyone can be suitably and dutifully pleased for me, LOL.
You said you liked Moody Blues a while back. Here's another "spinoff" from Justin Hayward and John Lodge's "Blue Jays" album:
"Who Are You Now?" - Blue Jays
"Who are you now, First love of mine? If you could see You'd reach out for me.
In hallways And in secret doorways Were love's hiding places With nowhere to go.
Goodbye To the fields and byeways. I remember saying I don't want to leave, 'Cos you were all there was to know about me.
Somewhere On this crazy island A familiar stranger Sleeps so far away
But wonder In the eyes of children And the smile of fortune Helps the memory fade, 'Cos they are all there is to know About me.
Who are you now?"
The Blue Jays album has an interesting cover. A view, standing on a hill, looking down a road. There's a fork in the road. One road goes through an elaborately decorated wrought-iron gate. The other goes through a gateway made of rustic lumber. In the distance, in the mist, you can see scraggly trees and fog beyond the elaborate gate, and beyond the timber gate you can see blooming gardens.
The inside of the album has a view looking back up the hill at the rustic gate from the garden...
It was my dad that taught me about getting someone's attention before talking to them. It works with anyone, or anything. (People, or animals.) They may not agree with you, but if you get their attention, it's amazing what you can do communication wise.
Dad is fine, I had forgottten one of his Fathers day Presents, and I took it to him tonight. He and mom live about 15 miles away. He is 76 this year, and in good health. He and Mom just got back from a trip with my brother and sis in law. They had a good time. Hob nobbed down the CA coast seeing the sights.
Camp was girls camp. Went with W and daughters. I taught some classes, and split wood for the fire.
Took some time for me. It's important do do that. Time to think, time to reflect, time to pray. Then comes time with my W - and then time with my children.
My job is something that I have to do to be able to spend time with my family. I like it, but the family is where my heart is.
Gray, I have thought a lot about you these last few weeks. Still searching for something that will help. Don't know if I will find it. Still praying for you, still care.
SS stares into the fire. The flames dance. Shadows change, light flickers on the faces of those around the fire. Many voice their thoughts, many remain silent. SS throws on a stick.
SS, You okay, Hon? You sound kinda distant tonight. I'm hoping that it's just late, you had a lot on your plate this evening and you are merely in need of a good night's rest.
Sparrow just emailed me. As usual, I deleted the message without reading it. But I didn't like getting it, so I'm sending her this message. It isn't too harsh, is it?
I can't believe she emailed! If she's like my STBXW, she probably wanted only to get you to confess that it's all your fault - or maybe give her some money.
I know you're mad, and still hurting. You mentioned fearing not being able to let go of this Resentment but I fear you are unconciously clinging to it. What purpose does it serve you?
If it were me. . . maybe drop the "Got it?"and "including the part where I tell you to go away", and remind her to correspond with you through your lawyer.
Not that she doesn't deserve it.
She does.
And more.
But you gotta get past this.
Besides, she will be a helluva lot more stricken by a response from you involving cold cruel emotionless facts than to know she still has the power over you to make you feel something for her.
I must agree with you on your reply to her. She is at a place where she needs to start feeling the uncomfortable consequences of the destruction she has wrought on others lives.
And I also agree that you need to step into the realm of voiceing your true feelings.
I am in a different place in my sitch and am practicing asking God to bless Dan and make him whole. I can not live in a state of resentment, and neither can you. However, you need to speak your truth to her, and she needs to hear it.
"never shelter one from the consequences of their actions" Noodle
The thing is 2long and SLH is that you are both still with your spouses. You were not completely, utterly abandoned and then left to pick up the pieces of your shattered lives alone.
Gray got NO answers, NO kindness, NO compassion.
He needs to be able to put this behind him somehow, and nothing so far has worked.
I like his reply. I think it is the truth and why not send it.
She destroyed a young mothers life and didn't care if she destroyed Gray. Not one tiny bit.
I could be wrong, but she needs a slap in the face. Then maybe Gray can finish healing.
Your reply lets her know that you are still hurting. I'm not sure if that's a good thing. She might gain some comfort from that. Maybe the coldest response is the best. The coldest response is to block her email and delete the message.
Being ignored is the most powerful message. You've told her now that you are ignoring her. Maybe you should block her now, so she can't even stir you up.
Read Gottman's "Relationship Cure". They call it "turning away". They, of course, are trying to cure relationships and in that context, you should avoid "turning away", but for you, curing the relationship is not the goal.
... or is it?
If she came to you in abject appology - confessed that she was a fool - and cruel and that she always loved you - and will do anything to win you back etc. etc. What then, GC? If the answer is that you would tell her to go away, then probably you should block all communications from her.
Then perhaps something along the lines of what Binder said 2 his STBXW would be appropriate.
...or whatever the troops said 2 Saddam Hussein when they found him in his spider hole? ...because they COULD have just pulled the pin on a grenade and dropped it in there for his perusal...
2long I read the lyrics to that MB tune at about 5am this morning and WOW. They really touched me because I was thinking along those lines last night as I pondered for "answers" to my sitch.
The album cover sounds really cool too. I might do a search on the net to get a look at.
True Weaves. And if "not being fierce has kept him underwater" (a cross-post, so I missed that, I apologize, Gray) has anything to do with it, maybe he does need to let off some steam in her direction.
Feeling like your hands have been tied, helpless, like you have done all the right things for too long and never had the opportunity to have your say, is a terrible, terrible thing. Leaves you seething and bitter and restless.
If that is the case, Gray, I would say to hell with it and just get everything off your chest by writing the Sparrow a long letter detailing everything. You can decide if you want to send it to her later.
But as far as Resentment, and Anger, and long-term consequences on the Soul. . . I've been in Gray's shoes before, too. . . so I know of which I speak (nothing as life-shattering as a marriage, we were engaged). Resentment is a wicked, wicked emotion. It's all too easy to dig a deep deep harbor for it to anchor. Simple in fact.
I need her gone, gone, gone so I can achieve something like forgiveness for her.
I want her to know she's not excused because she thinks all this is okay. I have a distict need to tell her it is not.
I don't care if she knows that she still has the power to hurt me.
AD, my policy is what it's always been. If she came to me and expressed anything like contrition, I would listen. But I know that she doesn't have what it takes.
Sometimes fierce is called for. I believe this is part of getting out.
Yes maybe cold is better than angry. I thought it sounded pretty cold though.
Yes, but unfeeling would be more of a wake-up call than cold, see? "Cold" infers that he has some feeling, albeit anger or hatred. Unfeeling implies Disinterest, plain and simple.
And I am not trying to be mean, but what would strike a woman worse?
Gray, did you go and dig up that email unbeknownst to us?
:: shaking computer monitor :: Where are you, Gray? Are you okay? What's going on? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I think you are right mate...straight from the shoulder dont pull the punches.
All this softening the message stuff after what so many are put through .......well all I can say is that so many people here are so much nicer than me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Aw, Aussie. Nicer? It's not about being nice to the other person. It's about being nice to yourself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Believe me, I was one angry b*tch for a while after my fiance left me for some little ballerina in a tutu. It twisted me.
I'm much more pleasant now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
But I do agree with Weaves and GC; sometimes you gotta let it out, or it will cripple you. In one way or another.
As a Stafford fan, I have looked high and low for the poem this quote came from and have come up empty. I finally decided this was all their was. If you find more, please post.
Aussie,
I am starting more and more to agree with that line of thinking. In my case I didn't even go on A/D's this time. Screw it, I want to feel all the emotions so I can finally heal, once and for all.
No plans, no manipulations...no nothing.
I'm shooting straight from the hip now. And if I live forever alone, well so be it. There are worse things.
What I find cruelist about Gray's sitch is that he never got a second chance. Not even a false second chance to right whatever went wrong, if anything even did (go wrong) in his marriage.
No second chance, no chance at all. Man that is just about the cruelist thing I can think of.
Happens all the time around here though.
And if Gray gets a second chance sometime in the future, I doubt that he will take it. Too much pain.
But you know Gray, you will love again and you will love better. WAT told me that once and I really believe it in your case.
But you know Gray, you will love again and you will love better. . .I really believe it in your case.
*I* believe it too, you know. Better and deeper and sweeter.
Gray, I know you may have trouble believing it right now, with this Albatross about your neck. . .
. . . but you are an amazing man, with such a future ahead of you. Truly.
(Do I dare go on, at the risk of Binder and 2Long's teasing? I could you know. Without SS's prodding.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Do you feel relief after having replied to her email? I hope so.
I needed 2 check for something else online, and wouldn't you know it? I hit "history" and came back here...
gc:
You can do this, and maybe it won't be "wrong" but it won't be you, either.
Consider this:
You can be kind and firm without being "nice." Nice is for sissies anyway. Nice enables bad $h!+. Firm insists on letting people face consequences. Kind does 2, in my very humble opinion (I hate those IMHO achronyms!).
No expectations, right? Not even any hope, either, right?
But you will forever have 2 live with YOUR choices, whatever those may be.
...pull the pin on the grenade, or let the Baghdad courts deal with her...
SLH, Gray has a hard time believing the truth (that he has great worth) because of the lie his wife told him with her actions (that he is worthless.)
His mind knows the truth, but this is a heart problem. His heart is still broken.
My worry is that some days he thinks the solution is to have another girl like him - but I think the solution is for him to come to know God, who can heal his broken heart, and put into his heart just how much he is worth.
Oh, another girl (one who is as good a person as he is) would help a great deal. If he is healed before he meets her, he can give to the relationship what is needed. I wonder if he worries about that.
SLH, You know who you are, and what you are worth. That enabled you to talk to Tiger and tell him what you could live with, and what you could not.
Gray, You haven't said much about your search for a long time. I have wondered. Please forgive me if my opinion differs from yours. I always say what I think, but realize every one is free to think their own thoughts. By stating my opinions, I never mean to devalue yours.
You have dreamed your dreams,(in your prose) and shared your thoughts for quite some time here. We have a feel for who you are, it can't be hidden when your bare your soul as you have done. You are as good as we say you are, and time will prove us right.
You are as good as we say you are, and time will prove us right.
Amen! Well said SS.
SS, I am curious. I don't know much about your sitch but you are so warm, sweet and giving I cannot imagine anyone bringing harm to you. I think the same way of many people here including GC.
Gray has a hard time believing the truth (that he has great worth) because of the lie his wife told him with her actions (that he is worthless.)
His mind knows the truth, but this is a heart problem. His heart is still broken.
My worry is that some days he thinks the solution is to have another girl like him - but I think the solution is for him to come to know God, who can heal his broken heart, and put into his heart just how much he is worth.
Oh, another girl (one who is as good a person as he is) would help a great deal. If he is healed before he meets her, he can give to the relationship what is needed. I wonder if he worries about that.
SS,
Once again I think you have truly hit home here. I am very interested in Gray's reaction to this post of yours.
There was a wonderful thread of FH's a while back which i will try and bump or take excerpts from if Gray wishes about forgiveness. The most incredible part of one story for me was the self-forgiveness part.
Faithful, I don't have a sitch. I found MB quite by accident, but realized it could really help our Marriage. I had a problem with LB's. Stopped the LB's, and we studied and began meeting needs much better. We are very much in love. Married 28 years (as of last march.) 8 children, 5 of them married, three still at home. The last two are twin girls 12.
I (for one) am happy that you are doing better. (And you too Weaver, but I won't push you.)
"Can you give an example of a kind and firm (not nice) reply."
I can't or I won't. This has 2 be gc's growth step.
But I will requote here what I've quoted 2 others before, about what unconditional love is and isn't. Gc's mileage may, almost certainly will (and should), vary, and he should choose 2 act how he feels is appropriate, whatever you or I might feel is right for him at this moment. From Dr. Guy Pettit:
"Unconditional love is enlarging the self, and an act of will. It is not a feeling or an emotional reaction. Think of the difference between falling in love, and growing in love through all difficulties and conflicts. Unconditional love is an act of mental and spiritual will, it cannot and does not take place upon the emotional level, which is where the problems first register. Unconditional love is extending oneself in the service of the spiritual growth of oneself and/or another, independently of reward or the behavior of others.
To truly love in this way could include:
· To call forth a sense of responsibility, and a capacity to make wise choices.
· To point out weaknesses people have, - but very caringly so that the best in the person is drawn forth in response, rather than resistance.
· To challenge people to strive and attain, and discover their true selves..
· To help people work on their habits and weaknesses so that they become stronger. To show them how to use their will correctly.
· To help people learn to cooperate, and thus to overcome their little egos.
· To engage people in working for humanity.
· To teach people how to overcome their prejudices, resentments, separative tendencies, vanities, illusions, and other blocks to their own joy.
To truly love in this way does NOT mean:
· To surrender to weakness.
· To accept things that are harmful.
· To encourage weakness or irresponsibility.
· To accept dirt or ugliness in thought, feeling or action.
· To exploit or use people.
· To put people into sleep.
· To tolerate laziness.
Unconditional love causes you to see what has really caused a situation and to see through the outer appearances to the true needs of yourself and others, without criticism of yourself or others . It causes you to see the basic good in yourself and other(s).
Unconditionally loving people see their own errors and joyfully self-correct them .
They love themselves, others and the Source of Life, and therefore the whole of life. In particular, they are inclusive, and can maintain love and goodwill towards both the apparent "victim" and "oppressor" in a situation.
They seek to radiate their inner harmony and joy, peace and healing into any situation - without conditions or expectation of reward, and independently of the thoughts, feelings, and actions of others.
They are group conscious and do not react by immediately taking sides.
They serve the cause of peace and goodwill, and can often find ways to a fair solution of conflict that are not available to emotionally charged people. Gandhi taught the use of ahimsa and satyagraha, which is the willingness to cooperate harmlessly with the good intentions of the other for the true benefit of both.
The Forgiveness Process can be seen to be a process which moves us towards this goal of unconditional love."
Which, not surprisingly, leads in2 Guy Pettit's "Forgiveness Process", which is an amazing read in and of itself. I know I'm not supposed 2 do this, and the moderators can remove this link without upsetting me, but here is a link for more, if you or anybody who looks like you is interested:
I believe that I understand now, the retisence that the Harleys have regarding unconditional love. It IS something that can be very, very easily misunders2d, and manipulated (either consciouslly or otherwise) by those seeking 2 justify their hurtful choices. But... ...true salvation, whatever that means 2 you, whoever you are, lies there. Nowhere else. I think that even Foreverhers would agree with me on that...
With much love, but with a possible period of absence from the boards for a tad... (perhaps amounting 2 as much as HOURS... ...after all, "we have the technology. We can make him better than he was...")
Now, in the immortal (or was that "immoral?") words of Just Learning (one of my best friends in all the unisphere)...
Gray has a hard time believing the truth (that he has great worth) because of the lie his wife told him with her actions (that he is worthless.)
His mind knows the truth, but this is a heart problem. His heart is still broken.
The longing to have things the way they were is gone. The injury is still there, though I hope nobody thinks I spend my life in anguish.
Quote
My worry is that some days he thinks the solution is to have another girl like him - but I think the solution is for him to come to know God, who can heal his broken heart, and put into his heart just how much he is worth.
Naturally I think a new person could wipe away the bad stuff that persists. I know better, but it would be such an anesthetic, wouldn't it?
As for my search, SS... it continues. It's an active search. I'm not just sitting here waiting.
I'm kind of overwhelmed by this response to my little flare.
I waited a few hours, then sent a short message similar to the one I posted. Possibly it's no day at the beach. Or maybe she reads it, rolls her eyes, makes a "hkkkkkkkh" noise, and goes about her business.
Much like my feelings about plan B, it makes me sad that this message might cause her pain. She's still somehow very dear to me. I don't want her to suffer. But I also can't accept all the pain for myself while she skips off. I should. I should volunteer to be a black hole for all the crap and then turn it into flowers. There are people who could, but I don't know how.
I've been carrying this thing around with me for a while now, and though I've not said my piece, I've at least handed a little of the weight off, maybe.
I do not believe my message was unloving. It might give me more pain. I might come to regret it. Time will tell.
Weaver, I don't know if they read here. In my postings, I assume they do, even though I wouldn't bet on it. There hasn't been anything they could spin into dirt on car4love for some time, which may defeat the purpose. She is the #1 target for their hostility.
Isn't that Stafford quotation something he said when describing his own work?
Isn't that Stafford quotation something he said when describing his own work?
I don't know.
I love his stuff because it is so simple, and yet so deep if you want it to be.
"When I met my Muse" by William Stafford
When I Met My Muse
I glanced at her and took my glasses off—they were still singing. They buzzed like a locust on the coffee table and then ceased. Her voice belled forth, and the sunlight bent. I felt the ceiling arch, and knew that nails up there took a new grip on whatever they touched. "I am your own way of looking at things," she said. "When you allow me to live with you, every glance at the world around you will be a sort of salvation." And I took her hand.
Wisdom is having things right in your life and knowing why. If you do not have things right in your life you will be overwhelmed: you may be heroic, but you will not be wise. If you have things right in your life but do not know why, you are just lucky, and you will not move in the little ways that encourage good fortune.
The saddest are those not right in their lives who are acting to make things right for others: they act only from the self— and that self will never be right: no luck, no help, no wisdom. —William Stafford
[jukebox] Run and tell all of the angels This could take all night Think I need a devil to help me get things right Hook me up a new revolution Cause this one is a lie We sat around laughing and watched the last one die
I'm looking to the sky to save me Looking for a sign of life Looking for something to help me turn out right I'm looking for complication Looking cause I'm tired of trying Make my way back home when I learn to fly
I think I'm done nursing the patience I can wait one night I'd give it all away if you give me one last try We'll live happily ever trapped if you just save my life Run and tell the angels that everything is alright... Fly along with me, I can't quite make it alone Try and make this life my own
[/jukebox]
Gray this songs HAUNTING me right now. I must play it when I get home.
Thoughts of you invade my sleep. I find myself pushing through another layer of letting go and yes, more forgiveness for what you've done to my dream of love and marriage.
You, who were once friend, then lover, are now a stranger.
I see you off in the distance, wandering in the darkness, yet thinking you're in the light.
You, who were supposed to be a loving father (mother) to our children, have bruised their hearts and bodies,
yet you thought you were doing right.
My heart is heavy, deep into the night seasons, trying to shake the horror you brought through the years.
My only joy is that Jesus, You were here to dry all the tears of little children crying in the darkness
and of a wife (husband) with heart forlorn and afraid.
We truly have been delivered from a great weight, too heavy to bear.
Tonight, once again, praises are sung by angels and mortal souls alike,
"Give us joy in our sorrow and freedom from the pain.
Help us keep our eyes on You, Lord and know You will lift us up again high upon a mountain,
in the cleft of the rock where Your strength and peace keep us from all harm."
2Long -- did you tell Aphelion about my H's job search? He seemed to know we were looking. I am really, really grateful, if so -- it's time for us to move on from where he is now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
FYI (just in case you hear something, unlikely as that may be where you are) I'd be happy to send you his resume if you become aware of any positions that open up for mechanically inclined Aerospace Engineers with tons of experience in the machine shop. He's done everything.
Still not sure about yesterday. I had some tears last night, because I felt awful. Sad that what I did was even there to be considered.
But she had it coming, and she knows it.
I think I'll always love that girl, but she's batted 1000 in the last year - every bit of contact I've had with her has hurt me, and not a little.
SLH, thanks for helpin' out yesterday. Sorry about the fiance and the tutu queen. That reeks. I don't know why people do this stuff. Well, I kinda know why, but I don't know why they don't know better.
Riders on the storm Riders on the storm Into this house we’re born Into this world we’re thrown Like a dog without a bone An actor out on loan Riders on the storm
There’s a killer on the road His brain is squirmin’ like a toad Take a long holiday Let your children play If ya give this man a ride Sweet memory will die Killer on the road, yeah
Girl ya gotta love your man Girl ya gotta love your man Take him by the hand Make him understand The world on you depends Our life will never end Gotta love your man, yeah
Wow!
Riders on the storm Riders on the storm Into this house we’re born Into this world we’re thrown Like a dog without a bone An actor out alone Riders on the storm
Riders on the storm Riders on the storm Riders on the storm Riders on the storm Riders on the storm
I probably can't take credit if you're H has found a lead, Ap probably figured that out himself. Where I work we contract for the guvmint, and they won't let us do stuff like recommend specific folks for specific jobs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
The saddest are those not right in their lives who are acting to make things right for others: they act only from the self— and that self will never be right: no luck, no help, no wisdom. —William Stafford
William Stafford must have met my W. She does this all the time. It's been her MO since I met her. 2 the extent that she asks her ICs 2 help her figure out why she's always trying 2 help people fix their problems, and has always set aside her own happiness in the process.
Doesn't it sound like something a WS would say? And do? I've felt for a long time now that she does the "selfless" things she does as a compensation mechanism. She does them without regard for the recipient even. She does them for me, for her family and friends, even for RM. And her family and friends, and I, would just as soon rather she didn't do things for us without involving us more in the decision - and that is because we know what it is, and we'd rather she faced her demons, rather than compensate for them and perpe2ate them.
"I did not have much compassion for the sparrow today. I need that word tatooed on the backs of my hands."
Try the inside of your eyelids - less "public" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
"I feel the need to be forgiven, and to make amends, for getting so angry.
I think perhaps that regardless of whether this act was good or bad, I needed for this day to happen.
Maybe I needed to feel like the sinner that I am."
All part of the process, gc. I don't think you did "wrong" by this. In fact, holding it back all those times you saw emails and deleted them without reading was probably more wrong than replying the way you just did. You aren't in plan B anymore, you're divorcing.
"Thanks again to all. 2long, I hope you have a good trip. Sorry I didn't wish you well before you left."
Well, you just did! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm at my sister's in Auburn. Going 2 try 2 see my dad in Sacramento this morning, then we've got 2 meet with a financial guy. 2morrow, it's off 2 the Shoe Tree! (and OOSP).
"Into the distance, a ribbon of black Stretched to the point of no turning back A flight of fancy on a windswept field Standing alone my senses reeled A fatal attraction holding me fast, how Can I escape this irresistible grasp?
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies Tongue-tied and twisted Just an earth-bound misfit, I
Ice is forming on the tips of my wings Unheeded warnings, I thought I thought of everything No navigator to guide my way home Unladened, empty and turned to stone
A soul in tension that's learning to fly Condition grounded but determined to try Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies Tongue-tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I
Above the planet on a wing and a prayer, My grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air, Across the clouds I see my shadow fly Out of the corner of my watering eye A dream unthreatened by the morning light Could blow this soul right through the roof of the night
There's no sensation to compare with this Suspended animation, A state of bliss Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies Tongue-tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I"
No leads,per se, but he said he'll keep an eye out. Aph's a good guy. Could be good news, I hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I unner-stand about the gov-mint contract job -- lotsa red tape. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Tiger does that, too.
Part of the reason it is so hard for an Aero Engineer to prosper here in Houston is the Columbia Tragedy. There are few too people, businesses, countries, etc who want to invest in the Space Race these days, and just far too many engineers, for Houston, anyhow. At least my H has a job. Many don't in this area, at least not as an engineer. . . we know a few folk who've had to take on jobs like night clerk at the local grocery store. So sad.
I don't want to move, but I will if it will make things better. In any way, shape or form. You know?
My H was distant the past couple days and immediately my stress load increased. I finally asked him if we were indeed on the same page about stopping the D and actually WORKING together on the M. We had a nice talk last night. Yes, he wants the M. Yes, he loves me. He is afraid though. I will try not to cheat again is what he said. I said, not good enough...it needs to be I will never do that to you again. So we talked again about boundaries. I had given him mine plus some examples from symc. Finally, he said ok I will write a list of boundaries. YES!
Also, agree that we BOTH need to work on the M, not just me doing the work. One tiny step at a time, I can't push too hard or he will be overwhelmed.
Sorry, GC I hope you don't mind me using your thread. I trust all of you in here.
GC: . . . Sorry about the fiance and the tutu queen. That reeks. I don't know why people do this stuff. Well, I kinda know why, but I don't know why they don't know better.
Yeah, The TuTu Queen and Guitar Boy sure did me did me one. I never got any answers on how long they had been fooling around behind my back and I never really got my say, except for one very regrettable moment of weakness on the phone where I unleashed a torrent of name-calling & curse words; not quite the same. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I didn't know about Plan A then; didn't know about Plan B, either, but I sure knew how to implement it. "Engage," says Captain Picard. Did I ever.
I left the boy and moved on, in hopes of healing. Instead of "healing", however, I let my anger simmer and roil in my belly, a nightmare of hot resentment and judgement I refused to get rid of, clung to in fact. Not that I let myself think I was holding onto anything. It's amazing how self-delusional a person can be given the right tools and a pathetic self-image. Oh, and a thinner OW, LOL!
So what helped my particular sitch? Getting my head on straight, in every possible way. I began attending church more regularly, began seeing that God wasn't holding anything over me for some sin I had committed in the past, however imagined, huge, miniscule or obscure, (and yes, I have my share, believe me). Learned to trust, to believe, to stand tall. And, I found an amazing support group there.
I also checked-in to a hospital for my Eating Disorder, which had been an issue since my early teens. As in all addictions, it was more than just an "avoidance of/obsession with" food -- I had to view it in terms of my quest for perfection, my need for approval, etc. Serious soul searching. . . ouch. So there, I sought IC.
And I began letting more people in. More than the select few I had, whom I had allowed to see me beyond the "perfect exterior" I had worked for so long and convinced so many of to create for myself.
Slowly, the Resentment and anger flaked off of me, in chips and dried scabs. Beneath, my skin was mostly raw and pink and sensitive, and as of then, maladapted to the brightness of its new exposure. . .
But it worked. A new Me stepped forth.
Here I am. Not perfect, not by a long shot, but okay most times, wouldn't you say? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
It's interesting to note that the time I ran into him since then, with my one of my daughters in tow -- what did I feel?
No, not complete forgiveness, but not total anger and seething bitterness, either. Something in-between, less contradictory. More akin to remembering an old friend I had shared many happy moments with, that I was saddened to've left behind. . . but had to, to spare myself. I had to in order to move on to sweeter things.
In the time it took to drink our coffee together (classic coffee shop run-in), I never once thought about what happened to the house he had bought us; my unsused wedding gown that was stored there; what happened to our bed, our appliances, our furniture (including the complete Baby's Nursery) that I had so lovingly picked out with an eye toward "our future"; whatever became of the my diamond engagement ring I had (wanted to throw but) handed back to him, what he had done with the Guitar I had saved up a year for, etc., etc. (I still wonder if TuTu-OW made him get rid of it, now that I think about it. . . LOL! Man the boy could play!)
I had truly left it all behind.
Resentment and Anger had --has made me somewhat bitter (I like to say, "realistic", LOL) -- I think no one can escape unscathed & unscarred from a situation like that -- but you can't cling to it, even in it's simplest, smallest form. Not for any longer than a brief while. "It'll eat you up inside, baby" (nod to Don Henley)
I don't know if any of this will help; I know I was only engaged for a few years and that you shared a decade with the Sparrow, a decade of stories and hopes and dreams. My sitch doesn't begin to compare.
I just thought I'd share.
For the record:
Guitar Boy did up marrying the TuTu Queen; their marriage lasted all of 9 months.
But even now, with him knowing I am married with 3 girls, he stills snoops around, makes inquiries about me. . . has managed to wiggle back into my best friend's (in my old hometown) life and wrestles tidbits of info about me out of her. At this point, I simply find it amusing and saddening.
Huh? What examples? I need to learn more about boundaries myself!
This is Cerri's list of personal boundaries:
No in depth eye contact. Surface only.
No physical contact. Do not sit immediately next to someone you find attractive - or directly across from.
No sexual innuendos of any sort - no sexual jokes - if one is made give a weak smile and change the subject.
No conversations about personal issues - marriage/kids/career/etc unless it is to say how wonderful those things are going for you DO NOT SHARE ANGST - it builds connection.
If you end up in a professional or coaching relationship with someone you find attractive you will need to be especially on guard not to share YOUR personal stories. You will also need to guard against taking this person's side and commiserating with his/her pain - keep the focus on what s/he needs to do to make changes that create a better life.
No thoughts about "what if" - you cannot let your brain go there - it might feel good in the moment but it just hurts more later.
Keep discussions about feelings for someone else limited in time and in scope - these should be with someone who will encourage you to make appropriate decisions.
Learn to recognize the chemical dump and to force your thoughts elsewhere - this is why talking about it at length is bad - it just makes it larger.
Stay active and engaged in other activities.
If you must be in contact limit conversation to the bare minimum and to essentials only.
DO NOT talk with this person about the feelings you have for him/her - finding someone attractive is an aphrodisiac all its own and again makes the whole thing larger. It can also begin a string of destructive events.
Do not initiate contact - answer only those that are essential and related to the relationship you have (business, coaching, whatever)
Quote
Your son is absolutely beautiful. I mean just gorgous. Bob's letter made me cry, and it was so true.
Thank you, he is my sweetie boy. Yes, Bob's letter was beautifully written, really touched my heart.
FF, I guess he's testing the waters. But the "I'll try not to cheat" stuff? Yikes. Show him The Empire Strikes Back:
LOL, good idea GC. Yes, testing the waters is very likely. I withdrew from him last week and he got to experience the loss and he did not like it at all. He was very hurt. That is what prompted these conversations. GC, he has always been like this, content to let everyone else do. He has never been the initator in R's.
[color:"purple"] . . . I’m learning to live without you now But I miss you, baby The more I know, the less I understand All the things I thought I’d figured out, I have to learn again
I’ve been trying to get down to The Heart of the Matter But everything changes And my friends seem to scatter But I think it’s about Forgiveness Forgiveness Even if, even if You don’t love me anymore. . . [/color]
Gray, I'm not preaching, Hon. I hope you know that.
I've been pondering this for a few days now. . . if you need to have your say, and you truly haven't, then have at it. Go after her with both barrels -- don't look back -- she deserves it. She does. You've been too strong for too long, and no one is SuperMan. No wonder you are so resentful.
Is this just what it boils down to? You never had a chance to have your say?
Hell, Gray, no wonder you're so bitter and ticked off. Get it off your chest. But you don't have to compromise who you are by doing it.
[color:"purple"]You keep carrying that anger, it’ll eat you up inside, baby . . . [/color]
. . . and we need something left of your heart for when Miss Right comes tripping along your path, right?
FF wrote: SLH, my goodness...you sure have come far to not think of those things. Glad you shared.
FF, I still struggle with lots of things, bay. Mainly my ED (Anorexic tendencies, no more Bulimia in years, thank God) -- I'm either too thin or too fat, standard anorexia/Bulimia fare. My H has a history of it in his family, so he is very understanding -- sometimes too much so -- I need a good firm kick in the [censored] more often than not. Right now I could stand to lose a good bit of weight. . . but trying to do it "healthily" and not via the "quick way" (aka just not eating for a while) has never been an easy lesson for me. But it is one I need to learn for my girls, for their outlook on the world, for their outlook on themselves as growing young women, etc.
I guess we all have our demons, huh? Mine just sound really ridiculous on paper.
I promise I'm not that shallow, LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Am I? I'm still (for a few more days at least) married to this chick. I don't think the time for protest and righteous indignation has come and gone. She's married to me and lives as if she's married to the tinman. That's a big disgusting fake. I do not believe that you can say, "I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you" and then you're divorced except for the legal wrangling and you get to do whatever you want. Of course there's nothing to stop a person from doing that, but I have the right to say "This is a nasty old shackup" as long as that's my wife in the tinman's bed. Dress it up however you want, this is low-rent Jerry Springer behavior. After the divorces are done, it will still be right to reject the legitimacy of this affair (e.g., it would be morally wrong to attend the APs' wedding), but right now, it's even worse... an affront to common decency.
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Is this just what it boils down to? You never had a chance to have your say?
Partly. But I'm pretty sure dumping all my thoughts onto paper and dropping it in the mail would be unsatisfying. I wouldn't know if they'd be read at all. I'd wonder if much of what I wrote would be dismissed as cultish MB dogma. I'd care about how the information was received, even though there'd be no way of ever knowing.
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Hell, Gray, no wonder you're so bitter and ticked off.
I don't believe the time for has come for me to measure my feelings or my attitude in those terms. I'm still married. I'm still grieving. I'm still experiencing the immediate, direct consequences of the sparrow's affair. I'm all alone. My financial situation remains unresolved and precarious.
And there's a side effect to doing everything you can to give your marriage a chance to survive. You grieve slowly. You postpone letting go of your attachment to your partner. You suffer more, I think, because you fight to have hope, and in doing that, you turn your anger inward.
So I'm not going to come down on myself for not being at peace.
I'm not the same as I was two months ago. Two months ago, I still felt anguish. Now I only feel sorrow.
Make sense?
I like that song, SLH, but every time I think of the name "Don Henley", for some reason I feel like giggling.
I've never been real hot for the Eagles. Maybe that's why.
Or maybe it's that image of him singing while playing drums.
Just wanted you to know that I'm reading - and I can only imagine how rotten this situation feels for you. You have every right to be outraged, heartsick, bitter etc. etc. etc. But, you are still a young man, and when all this yuck is over, you will have a chance for something much better.
But I'm pretty sure dumping all my thoughts onto paper and dropping it in the mail would be unsatisfying. I wouldn't know if they'd be read at all. I'd wonder if much of what I wrote would be dismissed as cultish MB dogma. I'd care about how the information was received, even though there'd be no way of ever knowing.
Hmmm. I guess I meant if she were to contact you again. . . you'd have a just opportunity to lay it out then. Not unprovoked, as it were. And not in ranting, hateful terms, but cold hard fact: this is what you have done.
I just did not know you had suffered in silence all this time.
So I'm not going to come down on myself for not being at peace.
Neither will I. I hope you haven't thought that I've meant to, or that I was trying to sway you unduly --if you think so, I apologize for how I've acted. You feel the way you feel and have very legitimate reasons for it.
What you say makes perfect sense; more then perfect sense.
I just hate to see you hurting so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
I like that song, SLH, but every time I think of the name "Don Henley", for some reason I feel like giggling.
I can only think of a handful of his songs I like, and it is more the poetry in them, what he is trying to emote, then the music itself (I know, I know, sacrilige to a musician!).
Everybody knows drummers can't sing!
Uh, sorry, Phil Collins???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I guess he figured working and coming here to sleep and eat was good enough for me.
And that he could still be single the rest of the time.
I am hurting bad. I just want to sleep and this nightmare to be over.
Beth has been waiting so long for us to do something, but he is always too busy. Finally he gets a weekend off and now this. And to top it off, there is another little girl sleeping in her room adn playing with her toys and her dog, while she sits here with no one and nothing to do.
Shul I just went over there to read what happened to.
I know you are going to get mad at me, but now is the time for some consequences. Nothing else has worked.
Sometimes, love must be tough. That's your sig line Shul, and I know you believe more than anything else that love really will prevail.
So if you love him and your daughter, do what needs to be done. Turn him loose and set him free so that repentence can find him, once and for all. It's not too late for the second half of the plan.
I am going to try and sleep for awhile before it gets busy at work.
(For those who don't know, I run a motel /internet cafe in the country. I work 24/7. Thats why I am so homesick. We live in a motel room.)We had to move here when he walked out 2 years ago, and then he moved back into the house last fall. For a long time I wasn't allowed there b/c he was bringing ow there and I caught him.
Shul, I read your last I'ville post to B. No wonder you have the shakes, Hon!
He has his "reasons". ::snort!::
Bay, hang in there. What Weaves says makes lots of sense. But you gotta have the stomach for it. Can you do it? We can be here for you if you need to vent.
We are all with you. It's okay to feel scared, and it's okay to cry. You are not alone, we are with you, DD is with you and God is with you. You are such a special person, with enough love for an army inside your one and only heart, you must start to protect it. He will bottom out in Plan B, and you know this. It is time to take away the net. Only through this will he be restored to man you once saw.
I am so very sorry. Gawd how I hate false recoveries.
I went to HS with a girl who had Anorexia. In fact a good friend of mine married her but then she ended up in a hospital for what seemed like might turn out to be permanent, and he divorced her.
What a horrible, horrible demon to have to fight. I have so much compassion for you in dealing with type of illness.
My daughter is a little bit overweight and her dad and I often are at a loss with how to approach it because we worry about focusing on looks and weight but then we don't want ot ignore it either.
So we just stress healthy eating and exorcise. I think Faith's daughter is faced with something similar with her daughter.
86 that man, Shul. For your own good, and for his.
Picture yourself in ten years.
Are you still suffering this way?
You will be if you just keep wishin' and hopin' and prayin'. You do have control over your life, and you've refused to use it. Take the wheel from your H. Take it!
Tonight I talked to a friend. She asked what was up. I told her a bit, very little, no details, about the email shenanigans from Thursday.
She asked me, "Why do you call her your 'wife?'"
I said, "Because she is."
"That's just a technicality," she said.
The discussion that followed was a long skirmish about whether I'm in some la-la land of desperate denial or stubborn or idealistic to the point of being just stupid about it. My friend reached the conclusion that I'm stubborn and idealistic to the point of being just stupid about it.
I think probably "plan A" is a once-in-a-lifetime event.
I can't imagine doing it again. Besides, what would be the point? I'm perfect now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I can't imagine fighting this fight again either. Partly because I can't imagine ever loving another woman enough to consider it worthwhile, and partly if Squid chooses to stray again, she has chosen to end our relationship.
I'm more blessed than you in that I see a restoring marriage and already, a year in a good life. But this battle almost killed me, and like Frodo in Lord of the rings achieving my goal has taken an eternal toll on me, and forever changed me.
I look back down the last year and I can hardly believe the events that have taken place. I see a different soap opera hero doing the things I did, not the big ol' midlander sat here in my rugby shirt and shorts while the kids eat breakfast.
Its been SO HARD Gray, I am in awe of your strength to be so together after enduring the same battle as me , but seeing a personal victory not a marital one.
Ordinary people shouldn't have to go through this. It should be reserved for the cartoonish brave and the strong. Not me.
The discussion that followed was a long skirmish about whether I'm in some la-la land of desperate denial or stubborn or idealistic to the point of being just stupid about it. My friend reached the conclusion that I'm stubborn and idealistic to the point of being just stupid about it.
My friends feel the same way. My sister says if she ever sees Dan again she will rip him to shreds with her bare hands. She said please tell me you have no feelings left for him, I just couldn't stand it if you did.
Well this is my life and I'll feel what I want, and my friends and sisters will except it.
But whatever feelings I once had are fading quickly, lately I think what I feel is nausea and not heart sickness. And then that bothers me too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
"Besides, what would be the point? I'm perfect now."
Indeed. We know this about you, though. 2uestion isn't so much centered around YOUR perfection, so much as HERS. ...is your friend perfect 2? ...is she cute?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I look back down the last year and I can hardly believe the events that have taken place. I see a different soap opera hero doing the things I did, not the big ol' midlander sat here in my rugby shirt and shorts while the kids eat breakfast.
IMHO, it is ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances that find the strength in their soul to fight this fight. I think the first A I was too frightened and angry to do it right but when number 2 rolled around I had what Bob calls "sand" to change myself and become the person I am now.
I can liken what you are talking about to my life as a special kids parent. You would look at my life and say "how do you do it?" Well, truly the answer lies in the fact that you do what you have to do. You use your God given strength, determination and love in your soul to keep going. That is why GC, your friend cannot understand your honor because she has never fought the battle you did. You fought the dragon and won. You didn't win the Sparrow back but you won personal growth, dignity and honor. I salute you for still seeing yourself as married. You are until the D is final.
Thanks weaver. I don't ever drink heavily, but this morning I reread that post to make sure it wasn't pure nonsense.
Friends came over for a cookout. Had fun. Everybody raves about my cooking, which I like. One of the friends, a woman who's been a real pal to me, is calling me juuuust a little too often though. I'm sweating it a bit.
Tonight, she kept coming in the kitchen to try and "help". She's gotta know I'm not interested in her. I talk to her about women I meet. I've told her that I don't want to start anything with any friends or acquaintances from before, that if I manage to get something going with a woman, I want it to be with someone new. We're good friends, but we have very little in common. We want completely different things out of life. And she's no fool. I know for a fact she's aware of the fundamental differences between us. She has very definitive plans to move away, far away, next year. And I'm not attracted to her, even though she's a nice-looking girl. I can't explain why, I'm just not into her, not one little bit. She's like my sister.
I don't want to glom onto this girl as a chum until a woman I'm actually attracted to comes along, then all of a sudden my friend never hears from me. So just to be safe, I've been a little more distant lately. Wouldn't you know, the more distant and moody I am, the less available I am, the more she seems to call.
I honestly, truly, don't think she has any ideas about me, but sometimes I'm not sure, not 100%. And I worry, because I know I have a good report card.
Thank heaven she's leaving for a vacation with a friend tomorrow, because every time my phone rings and I see her number, I think, oh boy.
Please oh please don't let this girl be interested in me. I would hate to have to shoot her down; it would royally screw up our friendship.
I think truly there's nothing to worry about here, but times like tonight, I get worried.
Of course, lots of my friends have asked why don't I go after this girl. But I'm not interested.
I wouldn't say you're worried over nothing! Why the heck are you so surprised? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Sounds like you've already got a good plan and are implementing it. Just to be safe, continue taking definitive steps to dissuade her.
Something to consider, however: sometimes chemistry isn't always instantaneous. I've known Tiger since I was 14 and I assure you, I wanted nothing to do with him before or when he proclaimed that he had loved me "all those long years". I was, in fact, absolutely furious with him for destroying our friendship with all of this ridiculous "Relationship Talk" and destitute at the thought that we could no longer be "buddies". Even when I submitted and went on a few dates with him, it felt so terribley awkward. . . one date culminating in my most feared moment -- a kiss that felt purely incestual, LOL! I was kissing my brother!!!!!!!
Oh, how I laugh looking back on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
We were married 4 months later. Well, 6 years and 4 months. . . from the time when we became good friends, anyhow. Why wait when you know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Not saying you should date this particular girl at all. . . sounds like you guys do have very little in common. But leave your options open, eh?
LOL. Gray, I suspect sooner than you think, you will be having to carry a very large stick. Be merciful, LOL.
Eat a cookie and drink a glass of O.J., go to the garage, turn on the radio, and start stripping paint off bedroom trim. Ten pieces down, thirty-eight to go.
Watch couples, some with children and babies and dogs, walk by on the sidewalk, all day, over and over. Say hello to most.
Mow the grass.
Put a screen around a tiny crab tree I planted last year. The bunnies that graze in my yard like little rodent cows, only afraid of me if I get within about six feet of them, take bites out of this poor little tree all the time.
Take a call from some old friends I haven't talked to in months. Catch them up on all the latest, divorce-related and everything else too. They're very smart, highbrow people, but still they wind up saying things like, "Sparrow will have to reap what she's sown." They tell me to try to catch stage 15 of Le Tour because they're going to be there. I tell them that's wonderful, knowing they've wanted to go and see a stage of the race for a long time. After talking for about an hour, say goodbye and get back to work.
Continue to slave away on the trim, occasionally splashing caustic chemicals on myself, which each time that happens I have to book it over to the hose and rinse my skin off before it starts to melt.
Quit when it gets dark and all the fireworks start going off. Go inside, sit down. Wiped out.
Realize I've got all my end-of-the-weekend tasks still to do: finish the dishes, fold the laundry, sweep the floors, put away the grill, take out the trash and the recycling.
Sit down again, then decide I haven't made progress on enough projects yet. Get up and spend an hour working on the fireplace.
Midnight. I've been working for about 14 hours straight. That's gonna have to be the end.
Very lonely holiday. Not horrible, but quite lonely.
Oh, and SLH, We're waiting to hear that H took the WHOLE weekend off, and spent time with his family.
LOL SS. He took the whole weekend off all right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. . . we were going to go to Dallas to visit with family. . . but then I opted out. Nothing serious going on at all. I just wanted some time alone for a change, after having had charge of the our 3 grils 24/7 for the past few months. *VBG*. I spent the entire holiday weekend sleeping in, catching up on my reading, riding my horse, posting ocassionally, and out with friends. It was really nice.
Thanks for asking.
How was your holiday? Was it all you had hoped for?
Gray, I'm sorry yours wasn't as enjoyable as you had hoped. It does sound like you accomplished a heck of a lot, though. What are you doing to your fireplace again?
UVA, nice to meet you. How was your weekend?
Faithful, I didn't get to respond to your email earlier, but HALELUJAH!!!
I wonder how Weaver's weekend went. She had a concert to attend, didn't she?
OH, and my holiday was good. Mowed all my dad's lawns, fixed his sprinklers, trimed his trees, and didn't even have to go into work once. What a restful time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
At least the lawns, sprinklers, and trees in question were in a small town in the mountains where it's cool, and quiet.
H took the 3 kiddos and met with his bro and parents in Dallas.
I hung out at home by myself -- HEAVEN! Stayed up late, snacked on Wendys' (eat great, even late, LOL) watched silly sci-fi marathons, rode my horse, ate Mexican with some friends, stayed in bed and read frivilous novels while posting occasionally. Sheer bliss!
Sometimes I really crave some alone time, you know?
LOL, SS. Ti doesn't ride. Allergic, though he ties to acclimate, and usually does if he's around my boy for any length of time. One day he'd like to. . . one day. . .
Both his folks and brother live over 5 hours away, in different directions. He hadn't seen either in over a year, which is why I wasn't inclined to ask him to stick around. The girls hadn't seen their unlce in over 2 years. So, I begged out. Hubby wasn't thrilled but was happy to provide me with a break.
Before I was married, I really liked being alone. I'm comfortable with it, like it. I miss it sometimes.
It was worth it, trust me. I really needed this. Not that I don't love Ti, but I just wanted to be alone. I think I've just been overstimulated these last few months with having my hands so bloody full all the time -- full-time kids (he was working those 14 hour days), all those household responsabilities (regular housewife chores + all the lawn care, home improvement, small car stuff, etc)-- not being able to just sit down for a moment and just BE Me -- always rushing around and being a mom, a cook, a lover, a maid, etc.
Sometimes it feels good to just say I am, you know? And I think that's all I wanted.
I know I recaptured a huge part of myself this weekend, a part I hadn't glimpsed in some time. H came back happy and motivated and has started the week off with flying colors towards improving things, in conjunction to what he has been doing these last few weeks. I have no complaints. I am, actually, quite buoyant.
Ti doesn't ride. Allergic, though he ties to acclimate, and usually does if he's around my boy for any length of time. One day he'd like to. . . one day. . .
If he had some of that elusive time - which is so hard to catch these days. Almost an endangered species.
Both his folks and brother live over 5 hours away, in different directions. He hadn't seen either in over a year, which is why I wasn't inclined to ask him to stick around.
Five hours is not that far these days. A year is a long time when they are five hours away. Data is helpful. This was a big weekend in many ways.
The girls hadn't seen their unlce in over 2 years. So, I begged out. Hubby wasn't thrilled but was happy to provide me with a break.
Hmmmmm, That talk would weight heavy on his mind - but I shouldn't tease you about serious things.
Before I was married, I really liked being alone. I'm comfortable with it, like it. I miss it sometimes.
The missing data. Thanks, I hate missing peices when I try to put things together about people. You needed some you time. All of us do. Luke 4:1
You understand I don't claim to be an expert at helping people. This is interresting though, and what a wonderful thing it is to know so many great people such as yourself, and those others I meet here. (You all know who you are, except for Gray, who is modest, and I name him on purose.)
It was worth it, trust me. I really needed this.
I trust you. I wanted to understand you also.
Not that I don't love Ti, but I just wanted to be alone. I think I've just been overstimulated these last few months with having my hands so bloody full all the time -- full-time kids (he was working those 14 hour days), all those household responsabilities (regular housewife chores + all the lawn care, home improvement, small car stuff, etc)-- not being able to just sit down for a moment and just [b]BE Michelle -- always rushing around and being a mom, a cook, a lover, a maid, etc. [/b]
As I have read your comments the past month or so, I worried about these things, but for both of you. He may say he is doing well now, (after the trip, and seeing family) but he may not take the time that he needs for him either. I don't know if you can give it to him - if you did, would he realize he needed it, and accept it?
I would guess that one weekend is not enough for you either. Besides alone time, you need couple time. Lots of it. Dr Harley is not crazy, and sure, you can get by on less, but the feelings that come when you get closer to 15 hours approach the rush of young love all over again. Trust me, he knows what he is talking about. Quite a rush too - if you will remember.
Sometimes it feels good to just say I am, you know? And I think that's all I wanted.
I know. These things need to be in your plans. Not grabbed when you can get them, but planned in. Remember, after the kids are raised, you and Ti will be together, and you will have to live with YOU also. Make life ritch, and rewarding, not drudgery. It's work to get it going, but ..........well, what do you want out of life? If you are not getting it, make changes until you are. So often we trade what we think we want, for what we really want - but we only realize it after it's too late. I am so happy you two are working on it now, while you are still in love, and while your family can make positive changes.
I know I recaptured a huge part of myself this weekend, a part I hadn't glimpsed in some time. H came back happy and motivated and has started the week off with flying colors towards improving things, in conjunction to what he has been doing these last few weeks. I have no complaints. I am, actually, quite buoyant.
We hope the colors continue to fly. I was hoping you would report that you are making major progress on your family goals. I suppose this is it in one way. Thank you for helping me understand. I hope I can be of some help in the future - mostly by encouraging you.
(me me me me me me)
Make it caps, YOU are worth it. Realize you are in public, not just in private.
How are YOU?
I cope just like you do. Most days are good. Today is good. If I didn't ride the storm like everyone else, I wouldn't be of much use to anyone. I have learned to take time for me, when I need it. It is high on my list, and I don't give it up easily.
I would like to apologize to everyone for being a big fat whiner lately. I think my posts give the wrong impression, that I'm stamping my feet and refusing to accept things as they are. That isn't the way I am, and it isn't how I feel. Though I admit to being annoyed that this stuff isn't behind me yet.
My mind is still caught up pondering the sparrow's future and I'm too preoccupied with house efforts.
My doctor thinks I should get back on the ADs for a few months. I told him I didn't want them to be a lifestyle. He agreed, but thinks I could use a little boost.
I hadn't noticed any whining. And even we do feel like stamping our feet etc, so what?
We should refuse to accept things as they are. Things as they are, are all wrong.
And I don't think there ought to be a timetable for getting 'over it', or moving on or whatever...
Doctors are into relieving pain. But we are hurting and depressed and sad for a reason. We are supposed to feel sad. I think we are allowed to feel sad when these things are going on.
Breaking news here. Out of the blue, H has given ow back her cell phone and left her a note breaking it off with her. No contact.
He came home last night and told me, but it has been so busy at work that I haven't has time to process this new development.
Gray, we're here to whine, sometimes. Unless it's a way of life with you (and I don't think that's the case) don't apologize.
Here, sometimes you can get support from others, prayers, or advice. This was once only YOUR thread, but you've made this a wonderful, secure place for us to come and share our stories, ask for advice, vent, and yes, let off steam. We are so glad you have. I love it here and appreciate that I can come here and chat. So often I have no where else to go. Thank you. Really.
Back to the AD's. . . Someone (The missing Weaver?) mentioned that she did not want to go back on ADs after this last round with WDan because she needed to feel every emotion in order to truly heal; she needed to go through the entire situation processing every emotion as it was -- raw.
I could never do that, and I admire her courage. I've been on AD's off and on for years to help me with my Eating Disorder but find that, in fact, I need them. (Tom Cruise would have a heyday arguing with me and my "chemical imbalance".)
I can see where you would be concerned about AD's becoming a lifestyle. When would be a "safe" time to stop taking them (the Sparrow's always gonna be around). And AD's, beneficial as they are in "taking the edge off", do just that -- take the edge off. Personally, I've noticed that my Muse flees when my ADs are "on" -- she's rarely seen of. "Taking the edge off" means it does so for bad feelings, but good too, for me. Tiger says I am more subdued, less vibrant, have less joi de vive. Do your ADs effect your writing, your playing, your passion for life?
Sometimes it's a win-win sitch, but more often not.
I'm glad of mine (only 'cause the alternative is unthinkable), though I'd love to see what else is out there (Prozac since early 90s, off and on). Of course, when your PPO sends you a list with a handful of Psychs on it and none of them are accepting new patients for the next 5-6 months. . . argh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Breaking news here. Out of the blue, H has given ow back her cell phone and left her a note breaking it off with her. No contact. . .He came home last night and told me, but it has been so busy at work that I haven't has time to process this new development.
Shul, I only had a chance to glance at your post yesterday and couldn't reply, but didn't see this. I am praying your intuition is correct, bay, and that this lasts.
I do have concerns for his past violent behaviour, though (your first post) and I didn't know that part of your story. Would you share it? No 2X4s, I promise (I saw one of the replies, didn't agree). I'm just trying to get a clear understanding.
SLH, my ADs did well for me. Made me feel a little less crippled during the bad times. Did not affect anything else. I wrote more music on them than I've written since going off, actually.
Maybe it's good I started them up again today. Just heard from car4love, about her divorce, and it sure brought me down. What the hell? Two months ago, I felt great.
Tom Cruise is a silly man, but he also made Matt Lauer the fool the other day. Lauer was wholly unprepared to be challenged, and had clearly not done his homework and earned the right to question Cruise's kooky public statements. Lazy, lazy, lazy, like pretty much everybody in the mainstream news media.
Luke 4:1. I love it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I don't think Lucifer was in attendance, except maybe in the form of coercing me into sheer laziness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Forgot to mention that Ti's brother (who is an Engineer who constantly works, a bachelor and has indiscriminate amounts of money) sent home with H his motorcycle for H to work on (Riceburner; Ti will get half when its sold), so Ti is excited about using that as his "liesure time". I like bikes too and will enjoy helping him work on it provided the temps outside stay below 90 or so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> So I guess that's an activity we could enjoy together, or he could enjoy alone.
We also got a lawnmower that is -gasp!- self-propelled (Uncle John just decided to hire a lawn service; Our mower isn't SP and mowing the lawn 2x week was so not fun), and a DVD burner.
I just love getting Uncle John's hand-me-downs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
They hung a sign up in our town "If you live it up you won't live it down" So she left Monte Rio, son Just like a bullet leaves a gun
With her charcoal eyes and Monroe hips She went and took that California trip Well the moon was gold and her hair like wind Said, Don't look back, just come on Jim
Oh, you got to hold on, hold on You gotta hold on Take my hand, standin' right here You gotta hold on
Well he gave her a dimestore watch And a ring made from a spoon Everyone's lookin' for someone to blame When you share my bed you share my name
Well go ahead, call the cops You don't meet nice girls in coffee shops She said baby I still love you Sometimes there's nothing left to do
Oh, but you got to hold on, hold on Baby gotta hold on And take my hand, standin' right here You gotta hold on
Well, God bless your crooked little heart St. Louis got the best of me I miss your broken China voice How I wish you were still here with me
Oh you build it up, you wreck it down Then you burn your mansion to the ground Oh there's nothin' left to keep you here But when you're fallin' behind in this big blue world
Oh, you've got to hold on, hold on Baby, gotta hold on Take my hand, standin' right here You gotta hold on
Down by the Riverside Motel It's ten below and falling By a 99-cent store She closed her eyes and started swaying
But it's so hard to dance that way When it's cold and there's no music Oh you're old hometown's so far away But inside your head there's a record that's playin'
A song called hold on, hold on Baby gotta hold on Take my hand, standing right there You gotta hold on
You gotta hold on, hold on Baby gotta hold on Take my hand, standin' right there You gotta hold on
You gotta hold on, hold on Baby gotta hold on And take my hand, standin' right here You gotta hold on
You gotta hold on, hold on Baby gotta hold on And take my hand, standin' right here You gotta hold on
I would guess that one weekend is not enough for you either. Besides alone time, you need couple time. Lots of it. Dr Harley is not crazy, and sure, you can get by on less, but the feelings that come when you get closer to 15 hours approach the rush of young love all over again. Trust me, he knows what he is talking about. Quite a rush too - if you will remember.
SS, you describe the 15 hours per week as the rush of young love. Is that true? I know that I felt that rush this past weekend after spending two whole days with my H. Perhaps all the time spent talking on the phone to xOW etc.. provided that rush? I have asked that we make more of an effort to spend couple time together. We did go out for coffee last night which was nice. Hmmm.. a rush huh?
FF, I love those coffee dates. We used to play board games while we drank our coffee and listened to bands. Other times we'd talk and write little love notes and share with eachother interesting quotes from the books we were reading or poetry or the paper.
Have any of you single guys ever hit on a woman at the grocery store? There's plenty of single girls there. Just check the ring scene first.
Gray, may I ask what AD you are on? If you'd rather not share, I understand.
H is doing the dishes tonight -- has offered to do them every night. Dishes are the chore I loathe most abhorently on this planet -- I detest them. Him doing them is a wonderfully sweet gesture because he knows this about me, and knows I spend all that time in the kitchen trying to make a nice meal. And it means even more because I know he's been at work all day and doesn't want to have to come home and deal with dishes (who would) right off the bat, but we are in Give and Take mode.
SLH, heh, I don't mind doing dishes, but I hate hate hate doing laundry.
I'm on Lexapro, dangit.
Grocery stores are awesome, though I've never chatted anyone up at one. I actually travel out of my neighborhood now and then to get groceries, 'cause all the women in this one are married.
In just a few minutes, I'll have fully unpainted all the trim on one of my windows. Big accomplishment! There are 11 pieces on each window, very tough to strip clean. I made a gigantic error in judgement when I decided to do this room in a natural finish. When I bought the house, in the bedrooms, there were five layers of wallpaper, cracked plaster underneath, and paint on everything. I'm about 90% of the way to having all of that old business removed. It's almost like a brand new room. Not really worth it though, in a practical sense, 'cause nobody cares that I've sunk this kind of energy into one little bedroom. To me it'll be a jewel though. Hope I get to stay here. I'm sure I'll turn into a blubbering fool if I have to leave this place at the end of summer.
Gray, I've heard wonderful things about Lexapro; that is one of the Rx's I wanted to ask my doc about. Can't remember the name of the other, but one of my girlfriends is on it right now. It's fantastic that you're experiencing so few side effects. Prozac is great but antiquated.
I had asked earlier but don't know if you saw it -- what are you doing with your fireplace? A friend of mine had one that was painted (white) as well and she ended up using a sponge the size and shape of the bricks and dipping it into red paint and then placing it over each brick. After that, she went over each brick with another sponge in a slightly different red, and then again in a slightly different red. After that, she spattered some black and gray on for effect and finally sealed it -- and her fireplace looked relatively real again, even with the "white mortar" where the white paint had been betwixt the bricks. It looks fntastic.
I'll bet that bedroom looks awesome! I can't believe you put that much work into it! That's amazing and wonderful. Most people (lazy me!) wouldn't've (double countraction?) and should you decide to sell, trust me, people will notice. How old is your house again? 40? 50?
Want to hear about my awful attempts at home improvement experience, with our 39 year old home? (and how I should have done things your way and not the easy way. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I do know what you mean about work. I am trying to redo my 5yo DDs room right now, and when we bought the house, it was boarded up with fake-o wood panelling (the woman's 50 year old son lived there). Truly horrific. I finally got around to pulling that nonsense down and not only had they Liquid Nailed it to the wall in horrid excess, but I had three layers of wallpaper to get through before I hit wall. I just wanted to paint it a cheery but subdued yellow for her sweet little girl heart, darn it!
Oh, forgot to mention that one wall was covered with this huge panoramic scene of what looked like the Florida beaches of my youth. LOL -- even THAT looked 60's and 70's somehow! (what I could see through the L.Nails, anyhow) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
I should have gotten the pneumatic sander and just went to town on the Liqid Nails that was on the one or two bare walls then and there,, and then stripped the wallpaper off the remaining walls. But oh, no! I thought I could jimmy the LNs off with a mallet and a flat edge a la Michaelangelo, and then cover it {and all of the layers of wallpaper} with texture. Uh, no. I swiftly found out that texture doesn't go on that thick, even if I jimmied and jimmied to a fine, smooth finish.
You should see the walls -- what I've gotten done.
It's. . . it's. . . aw, crap. It's scary. The wall I've finished may cave in for the amount of plaster on it. I'm waiting for it to buckle and heave any minute, LOL
I amaze myself sometimes, lol.
H is not impressed. Why didn't I ask?, he wants to know. Well, he was always working. So now we have a joint project to do together. I'm sure he's thrilled.
I'll post pics of my finished project (once I. . . er, we)correct it) if you post yours, aye?
SLH - what I'm doing with my fireplace is very similar to what you describe, but I'm painting the freakin' mortar too.
My house is 80, and the bedroom does not look awesome right now. It looks like new construction. It'll be there soon...
Yeah, Lexapro works very well for me. I was glad to quit, but honestly, I've been pretty down since I went off it. Thought it was just withdrawal, but it's been two months, so back I go. Probably not for too long... I hope.
GC, glad you decided to temporarily go back on Lexapro. Don't think I would be alive today without it and without you suggesting I have mine increased, so thanks.
I would love to see some pics when you get through. My home was built in 1918 and is a California bungalow. It is lovely, I love all the built-ins and moulding. We recently did a 500 sq ft addition and spent a lot making sure we stayed true to the heritage of the house. The carpenter we hired made the molding on site to replicate the rest of the house and I spent a lot getting authentic replicas of hardware etc. It turned out very nice. I will send you some photos one of these days.
SLH, I love reading your words. You really have a way.
I'm back from vacation, not that I managed to tell anyone here that I was going on vacation. Here's a picture that I took of DD while we were on vacation. There's a whole album there (well, lots of albums, but it depends on how far you want to take the whole thing) of other pictures from our vacation. It was good and restful, and I'm blowing it by staying up late. My ex is pissed at me for sending her a text message trying to describe in words a small fraction of what that picture represents. Poor thing. I really feel sad for her. She's missing nearly half of our daughter's life -- and won't accept the gift of a few small words to give some of it back to her, because they come from me and that awakens all the pain and shame and humiliation and guilt and anger and horror. Because she hasn't dealt with those things. Sad sad sad sad sad sad sad. I'm glad that's not my stuff, even as I hurt for her.
I'm spending time trying to figure out how I'm going to do what Still Seeking suggested and to figure out how to just live my truth. Not easy, you're right, SS.
Shul, here's a hug for you. It's a difficult part that you're going through right now. Don't back down and don't give up. Keep those boundaries where they ought to be.
I see someone mentioned SYMC. I hope there weren't negative repercussions.
Weaver, you're cool.
GC, I'm glad you did a bunch of things on July 4. Next time, find a little time to spend with friends, ok? I've spent holidays like that and enjoyed them -- and also been lonely.
And that's my late-night trip through the campground for the day. Mom says that s'mores are the right thing for a campfire, so I got some chocolate and graham crackers and marshmallows. Y'all enjoy!
J, thanks for swinging by. Those are some purdy pictures. She's swell.
FF, I'd love to see what your house looks like. I'll get my pictures in an album when there's something good to show off. Right now everything still looks junky, but I have high hopes.
J, she is adorable! That was me that mentioned symc and no repercussions as I did not mention or counseling or send someone there. Just posted Cerri's boundary list.
Aside from the one posted, I think my favorites are A Child At The Beach, On The Bench and Right after kissing the statue... right before the sock goes into the pond (the last prob because my 2-stb3-in-3-weeks does the same things). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Were you in the States? That sunset was breataking, and so were the lawns and such overlooking the water. Here in Houston, we have an ocean, sure, but the Mighty Mississippi takes care of filtering out any remaining beautiful blue water. Plus, everything is flat flat flat -- no bluffs. the views in your photos were great.
Loved that one of Super Dad, too, LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm sorry your ex can't see beyond her own shame and feels she has to immolate herself in her own guilt and self-destruction. I feel terrible for what she is throwing away, knowing she will one day long for it. These moments in your daughters life are so precious. I wish she could see that, for everyone's benefit.
Keep doing the right thing, J. One day she will wake up and thank you for it. You're a good person for trying, no matter what.
All is well here. No contact and he is being a gentleman.
Gray , I happened to be listening to Jersey Girl ( and yearning to be loved like that) when I read your post...
'Got no time for the corner boys Down in the street makin' all that noise Don't want no whores on Eighth Avenue Cause tonight I'm gonna be with you
Cause tonight I'm gonna take that ride Across the river to the Jersey side Take my baby to the carnival And I'll take you on all the rides
Down the shore everything's alright You with your baby on a Saturday night Don't you know that all my dreams come true When I'm walkin' down the street with you
Sing sha la la la la sha la la la la la la la la Sha la la la la la sha la la la la la I'm in love with a Jersey girl Sha la la la la sha la la la la la yeah yeah yeah Sha la la la la sha la la la la la
You know she thrills me with all her charms When I'm wrapped up in my baby's arms My little angel gives me everything I know someday that she'll wear my ring
So don't bother me cause I got no time I'm on my way to see that girl of mine Nothin' else matters in this whole wide world When you're in love with a Jersey girl
Sing sha la la la sha la la la la la yeah yeah Sha la la sha la la sha la la la la I'm in love with a Jersey girl Sha la la la sha la la la la la la yeah yeah Sha la la sha la la sha la la la la la
And I call your name, I can't sleep at night
Sha la la la sha la la la la la la la la yeah Sha la la la la sha la la la la I'm in love with a Jersey girl Sha la la la yeah, don't bother me just ain't got no time Sha la la la la la la la la I'm in love, I'm in love with a Jersey girl Sha la la sha la la sha la la la la la...'
Graycloud said: I would like to apologize to everyone for being a big fat whiner lately.
Gray, voicing your feelings is not whining. Most women know that getting things out is good for us, but many of us men don't understand that. On some level, you do, because you type here.
I don't know about everyone else, but I never thought of you as a whiner. I wish things were different, but I don't feel sorry for you, because I think you are a strong person, that will do well over time. I think you will make lemonaid out of the lemons given you.
Don't be afraid to talk about your feelings, or say what you think. It takes more courage than remaining silent, and it does you good too.
Wow, SS. Colors.
Hopefully it is more than just doing dishes. Are you guys going to make big changes, or do you think some small to medium adjustments will do it?
My other question is: Do you have your week alone scheduled yet? 2nd honeymoon, or whatever you want to call it. My W maintained that we couldn't do it. No one to watch the kids, and no money. We found a way. Now we do at least three days twice a year, and it ROCKS. (ss blushes)
Faithful, we don't get 15 hours every week, but three years ago when I first came here, we weren't getting an hour. Now we do weekly dates, and we spend more time talking. We trade off being in charge of the dates, so that we get variety, and one isn't under the gun constantly to come up with ideas. We do a wide range of stuff, from laying on a blanket at the park, to quilt shows, and plays.
Time together is magic again. I can't wait to see her at the end of the day, she can't wait for me to come home. Our hearts are turned to making the other happy, and finding ways to recreate together, not separatly. Oh, she still spends time with the girls, and I still do some guy things, but we do more together JUST LIKE WHEN WE DATED IN THE BEGINNING. We did the inventory Recreational Interrest Survey and we found new things we both enjoyed that we can do together. We do more of them, more often.
What happens is that even though you know with your heart that meeting your spouses needs is a good thing, your heart isn't always in it. When you have the strong attractions that come from being deep in love, it is easier to do, and it creates an upward cycle that is easier to maintain. Time together doing enjoyable things is a big part of making it work.
Everyone seems to be doing well today. Everyone that I have heard from ...........WEAVER.
JustJ, are the sunny days managing to keep the clouds swept away?
That picture was just beautiful!. It made me happy looking at it as I recalled earlier happy years in Cape Hataras with my DD when we used to meet my parents there.
Thank you for that. It really got my vibrations up. (I'm studying the Universal Law of Attraction right now, if you hadn't already guessed).
To everyone else - a big fat HEY!
I had a great time downstate with my friends and the concert was awsome. We had front row, outdoors and the weather was perfect. Fogerty and Mellancamp both rocked and their bands were incredible. Glad I went.
I am staying off this board because it is keeping me stuck in a place where I remember too much sadness.
I keep all of you in my thoughts most of the time, and will check in from time to time.
I love you all, and so many more on this forum.
Gray - it's time for you to forgive because only in forgiveness can you find true inner peace. It's true.
To all the rest - think positively at all times. That is my goal, and I will let you know how my life evolves as my positiveness manifests.
Shul, Faith and SLH - I love you girls!
AD and 2long - I will always hope for you two the very best.
SS - You will always be epitomy of kindness and grace in my book!
Oh Kimmy how could I have neglected to tell you I love you too. I just thought of that while working out, and about had a heart attack!
I love you Kimmy!
Faith, I will continue to pray for you. Keep picturing your hubby basking in light, "act as if" meaning you walk around all day and night acting as if the miracle has already happened. See? I think you are already doing that, cuz things are good hey? Don't let any negative thoughts or memories enter your mind. "act as if". Be bright and shining and have a loving indifference about you. (BSLI).
I had an epiphany SS. And I am pretty excited about it. So yeah, Merry Christmas!
Tonight I went out with a friend, a fella I work with who's several years my junior. An exceptionally good person. He told me a story. He grew up on a farm. There was the new house, and there was the old house. When my pal was 4 years old, his father moved out of the new house where his family lived and into the old house, where he shacked up with his affair partner, who was also married and had a couple of kids. A hundred yards away from his own family! My friend doesn't remember details, just remembers feeling sad.
The father is long gone. The father and son have no relationship, nor do the father and my friend's two sisters. Every now and then my friend hears from some relative or other what his father is up to. Right now, lives far away, flips burgers or something. My friend says he's not angry, but doesn't really consider himself as having a father, and more or less considers the man to be dead.
Here, infidelity was a symptom. Not of a marriage in trouble, but of a man for whom there was just something important and fundamental that was absent from his character.
My friend is brilliant and kind. He'll never repeat the sins of his father. This is thanks to his mother, and his own goodness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Here, infidelity was a symptom. Not of a marriage in trouble, but of a man for whom there was just something important and fundamental that was absent from his character.
I think the ones that don't come back this is very true of. The ones that come back to the M likely had something missing in the M. Just my theory. Your friend sounds like a wonderful guy.
Here, infidelity was a symptom. Not of a marriage in trouble, but of a man for whom there was just something important and fundamental that was absent from his character.
This is why I don't worry about you so much. Because it is plain that it is NOT absent in your character.
Your emotional immune system works. You will heal.
DD is 2 1/2. Going on 15 or so. She's acquired a whole host of new concepts and thought processes recently. Upon seeing me wearing a ring I don't usually wear: "Mama, did you get married?"
She does indeed regularly do things like kissing statues (and dolls, and boys, and cats...) and throwing her socks (hats, shirts, toys) into ponds (the laundry, the bathtub, the living room).
The pictures were taken at my parents' place in Wisconsin. The garden pictures are from next door, the beach pictures are the beach at my parents' house. They live on the Lake Michigan shore. The bluffs are in Door County, which is a vacation area about two hours from where my parents live.
Super Dad is going to be a cartoon superhero one of these days. His super powers manifest only after three martinis. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
My ex? Sigh. She is who she is, and I was recently blamed because I sent her the text message and "knew" that she would react this way, and that I needed to look at my own stuff to see why I was still trying to interact with her on an intimate level. I'm, err, not dating the person who said that anymore. At least, I don't think I am. I'm sure everything that was said is true on an intellectual level. It's still not, hmmm. Well, it pissed me off royally, whatever it was.
In any case, my ex says it's all a misunderstanding and what she meant was that she doesn't want me to send her text messages about things like this. Not exactly what she said in the first place, and the only common thread was the "don't talk about our past/personal things" part. I was thinking about the weather, myself, but okay...
I dunno if I'm doing the right things or not, SLH. I wish it were easy to tell what's right, but it's not always simple.
Hi SS -- Yes, the sunny days still sweep away the clouds. I use that line in my personal ads. I like that about my ads. Now to manifest a man to work with to create more out of those sunny days. I'm not sure the personal ads do it. Match.com was fun. Other avenues for more serious things, though.
Hi Weaver -- I'm glad you liked the pictures. There's something great about looking at a little child on a beach. Something... innocent. I read about lightning bugs the other day -- here? Maybe here. We're all children when the lightning bugs come out. We're all children when we have bare feet and we're walking on the beach, too.
And it's 2:40am where I am, and that is Much Too Late. So I will sleep now. Good night, everyone.
Tonight I went to see the brilliant and wonderful Alejandro Escovedo on his first tour since a fight with hepatitis. Excellent show.
Afterward, my friend and I went to a downtown Mpls. bar for a beer. We met an Irish fella from L.A., in town for a trade show. He was very charming, kept grabbing women and introducing us to them, saying we were in a band that opened for Hootie and the Blowfish (LAME!). Got into a little talk with him. I did NOT tell him anything about my story.
He's been married 30 years, claims he cheats on his wife all the time. The way he put it, "I'm an a-hole."
I asked him how he sleeps at night. He said he sleeps very well, has no regrets, because he is who he is, and he's 52, and he's not changing. I think maybe he was making it all up.
I said, "You don't feel any guilt? How's that?"
No answer. He was working on a potential subject. He went outside for a cigarette. I went along. He was chatting up his subject out there. I stood in the background. He brought me into the conversation. I asked him why he doesn't wear his wedding ring. He gave some half-assed explanation that it's too small, something about it having a ruby in it. I asked the woman, who had her hand in her pocket, if she wore hers. She said yes, left her hand in her pocket. The guy glared at me.
I said, "What? You're the one trying to get away with something; don't give me a dirty look."
I asked the woman if she's ever cheated. She said no. She's been married 11 years. I asked her if she planned to.
She said, "Sometimes."
I asked her if she thought that was a good idea. She said no. The Irish dude glared at me some more. I asked him how he'd feel if his wife messed around. He said it would be fine with him. He was damned charming, too. All the girls wanted to talk to him.
The woman said she was from Michigan. I told her I'd lived there a few years. I asked her what her husband was doing tonight. She said he was home with the kids.
I said, "That's nice."
We all went back inside. We sat back down.
The Irish fella said, "Gray, you're a real pain in the a$$."
I shrugged.
I hope I ruined his plans. He was annoyed, but in that cool British way, where they don't take it personally. Like he knew he deserved to have his plans ruined.
He watched me talk to a girl, a very cute, real nice girl. After she went back to her boyfriend, he said, "You're not getting laid tonight, but you've got a game."
Just thought I'd drop by the campfire and see how you are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I must admit you have guts.I just love to see people like your "friend"(fella) busted that way,up close and personal.Nowhere to hide when someone is looking right at them and questioning their very behavior.Love it! It's like those segments on the News where they follow these rotten people around and catch them in their dirty little secrets and behavior and they try to scurry under some rock so no one can see them even though there is a big ole spotlight right on them.LOL
But sure enough,they will go back to business as usual right? Needless to say I would be very happy either being the interviewer(like you) or the one holding the spotlight.HA!
GC, here is the link to some pics of my house and addition. We are not finished, have loads of landscaping and clean up work to do but very nice. The upstairs and downstairs baths are both part of the addition. The china cab is part of the original house. Could take too many pics of the original part of the house until I do some major cleaning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> FF's house
A thin whisp of smoke and a tiny spark are all that indicate that this is the place. Taking a split piece of dry white box-elder in hand, and pulling out his pocketknife, AD squats by the ashes and carefully begins to carve loops of shavings, letting each fall into the embers. After a minute or perhaps two, the whisp of smoke steadies and thickens. Then, a tiny flame bursts forth - quickly spreading. AD carefully chooses small sticks from a bundle and places each in just the right way - not too tight to smother the flame, nor too far. As the shavings fall into ashes, the tiny flame fails and the sticks remain unlit. AD sits back with a sigh. Deep in thought, he muses over the memories of his life - which seem to him no more that a whisp of thin smoke. He does not at first notice that the flame once again ignites. But when he does, he carefully builds on it, and after a half-hour, leaves behind a cheery blaze, well supplied with heavier chunks of wood. Remembering that he has a daughter - full of the life-force, the looks back, and softly says to nobody in particular "that should go for a couple of hours at least". As he walks away, his step is lighter and the pace quicker than when he arrived.*
FF, I'm impressed. I love carports! We don't have many of those up here. Your house is a real beaut.
Last night the power went out, so I went to the movies. Got home, still no electricity. The entire neighborhood was dark, hot, and silent. A little wind. The only sound was the trees. Planes flew over and their lights blinked over the yards. When cars passed through, they went slowly, the drivers wondering. Everything felt ominous.
2long swings by, notices fire's gone out again, and tosses a wad of newspapers and expired Harbor Freight Tools catalogs in and soon has a raging inferno...
Hey 2Long, thanks for the blaze. I was just coming in to sit awhile and the smell of fire and fresh air does a body good. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Wuz up witchoo?
Your threads' been quiet and we haven't heard from you in a few days. Everything okay?
Just got back from OOSP Friday, and am swamped with ketchup stuff at work.
Things are different now at home. I need 2 pick this ball up and run somewhere with it.
I'm so gunshy I hesitate 2 call it recovery, especially since we're not talking counseling or "recovery plan" at all, and I've not gotten any NC agreement.
Hi Everyone !!! (You too Weaver, I know you read sometimes.)
I'm probably whiter than Kimmy, but at least I got my swim trunks. Actually, they are river shorts, but they work about the same.
2long's a pretty good guy. It's hard to find his kind of humility, and strength all in the same person. I wish all of you could meet him in person so you could enjoy his personality. He's a good story teller too.
SLH, Measureable improvement?
Faithful - I hope your weekend continued to help your faith in full recovery.
Graycloud, You are really getting your emotional feet under you. I am impressed with the help you give others here.
I have always considered myself your equal, not your better. I may need to reconsider my status, because I think you may get way out in head of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
You are better than you think, as long as you keep what got you there in mind and don't get cocky, you will go far.
JustJ, You still have things on your mind. Is it normal stuff? Or is it the future, and all the things you still continue to wonder about?
Hey did somebody say skinny-dipping? Well okay but at our ages, we will all have to wear blindfolds. Otherwise we'd be laughing so hard we'd drown.
It's 92 in the shade here today, and nobody can move! Usually doesn't go above 75.
And I'm only reading for a sec SS, and only this thread. Then I'm off to accomplish a goal. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hi white [censored] Kimmy. I'm very brown this year, and my hair is now past my waste. Comes in handy when I am riding my horse on the beach, NEKKID. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SS, we did have a pretty good weekend even though the dog got skunked yet again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We are making strides but my confidence is not there yet (and understandable I think).
Weaver!!!! That's all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
JJ, I wrote you this loooooong reply and my H erased it by accident went doing something on my computer. I will try to write more later -- please don't think I didn't respond. dang technology. Can't live with it. . .
SS, I was gettin' worried. Wonderin' if you'd headed out of town or what.
WEeave, I love you, as always. i wanted to talk with you some about your DD and her eating, and the balance it takes being a parent. If you don't mind, I'll send you an email via GC.
Kimmy, where the heck ya been, girl? A lobatomy? Heck, we should just sign ourselves into the nearest psych unit for a few weeks. We'd get some peace and quiet and even have our own bedrooms, sans the jumping-on-us-at-5AM-kiddos! Whaddaya say?
2Long, I hope you can give us your assessment of how you feel about things before. . . well, before too long!
Me, well things still coming along. Not bad at all, but life is so busy sometimes.
Question for the night: Would you live with your parents? Or in-laws, if you could?
It's been my H's dream to live with his folks when they got older, for as long as I can remember. We thought about it a few years ago -- went as far as looking at houses together, etc -- but dismissed it. I don't think they or I were comfortable with it. But here we are again, reconsidering.
POJA isn't the issue here. i guess I'd just like some input into what kind of problems/quandries could come up that I should be aware of now, to consider?
BTW, the houses we are looking into have 2 floors, 2 kitchens, lotsa rooms and bathrooms, etc, so space shouldn't be an issue. Soundproofing our bedroom might be. LOL There's just something creepy about knowing your parents are "right down the hall". . . eeeeeewwwwww! No more chandelier nights! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
WEeave, I love you, as always. i wanted to talk with you some about your DD and her eating, and the balance it takes being a parent. If you don't mind, I'll send you an email via GC.
Thanks SLH, I am very interested in your insight into this subject.
"2Long, I hope you can give us your assessment of how you feel about things before. . . well, before too long! "
I'm going 2 hold off a bit while I cogitate...
...and while I get the thought of all you purdy chicks of varying albedos in that river out of my mind - my hormones are all unbalanced! I shoulda not said anything about skinny-dipping! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
We live near by a honest to goodness creek, and we get skunks in our yard too. Our dog got it once, but after that, he stayed back and barked loud.
Now that he's passed away, we don't have to worry about about HIM getting it, but the skunks are hard on the garden some years.
So you asked the recovery question to help you (emotionally) a little bit? Some days it's nice to get a little boost. Is he doing anything you are really worried about?
Brian Eno "The Roil, The Choke" (and before you ask me, I don't think it's SUPPOSED 2 mean anything!):
"He raised the stake And broke the soil And phrased the stroke That takes the oil And stoked, erased and foiled the lake And smoked and boiled the grazing snake.
Chorus:
The roil, the choke, the cakes of praise The spoils that break now cloak the days That wake the coil of blazing coke The flaking glaze of Royalty broke He praises snakes, admires stoats The flowery blaze, the fire evokes."
Not unless they were old and frail and needed care.
AS long as they could take care of themselves, I would keep my distance.
I have seen this happen lots of times. It is not really visible thing, but it's more subtle.
I think it can work, but it is easier if you don't have to make it work.
Some of it is not even what is said, or implied, but things that one of the other are AFRAID may happen. What if you had guests that came for a week, but then something happened, and they were there for a year. How would it play out as the months went by? Compare what you can imagine might happen with being in the same home as parents on inlaws.
IN those cases where I have seen it done, it was the younger party that was so glad to finally be on their own. Often the older party didn't understand why at all. That was telling to me. I have never done it personally.
Right now my W's sister and family are living with her Mother. Things that come up - you can imagine why.
Pets Parties Company that stays for two weeks to visit. The yard (We didn't leave that there - well neither did we.) The driveway (can we leave this trailer here for just a few days)
I consider my mother in law, and my sister in law to be wonderful people. Couldn't ask for a better MIL. It got me to thinking as we have watched it. I don't think I'll do it. any time soon.
I just sent you the info. Not trying to be secretive, but thought you might benefit from the book and articles, and we are not supposed to mention other sites on this forum.
But I sent it, if it is of any use, then good, if not, that is good to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Along the same lines SS, my dad told us when we became of marriage age that the best thing we could do for our marriages was to move far away from parents.
Young couples need to become emotionally dependent on each other, and way less emotionally dependent on their parents.
And SLH, you are a young couple still.
And my parents loved each other with all their heart and soul, but didn't live anywhere near their own parents until they had been married 30 years.
Just another angle, aside from those which SS made.
You've got chicken legs, too? We should form a club!
I love HP...only 7 more days...only 7 more days...DS called and has already ordered his copy of the new book! A$$...I can call him that, can't I? He was telling me to rub it in...after 16 hours in labor with him WITH NO DRUGS and he had the melon of a...well...melon...and he calls to gloat?!?! A$$!
And Kimmy next spring I plan on going to SAT. My SIL is in treatments now for ovarian cancer, and my lil bro feels that any guests would be unfair to her (even at a hotel), as she is so sick she can't partake, and she would get all stressed out, etc. He loves her more than life, bless his heart...and she him.
So next spring when she is back in remission (please God let her have another remission) I will go, and I'm going to meet you! I can't wait.
SLH, it's his dream to live with his parents? I don't understand.
I need an epiphany. Went to the grocery store tonight... I think the reason I stay so slim is because grocery shopping still makes me sad. Isn't that funny? Shopping, being in stores, really gets to me. Weird.
I don't look so rough outta my duds either, people. I'm only 34! And much fitter than I used to be.
Weav - just planted another big hibiscus topiary, and a crepe myrtle. I'm sweatin like a stuck pig (sorry for the visual to all you who think southern women just get dewy). Make sure you come in SPRING! Geeze. The sun's even below the horizon....2long, I'm ready for swimmin' now! Where's my beer?
SS... by the way, thanks for what you said before. I have the blahs right now, partly because I'm back to looking at my own faults and trying to be mindful of them all the time. Not a "I'm no good at all" feeling, just impatience. Seems my grieving is awfully protracted, and I don't know why, but it seems sometimes like it will never end. But then, I haven't even gotten my "you're divorced, dude" letter from the county yet. Maybe that will matter. My doc wants me to head back to my IC, which... honestly I do miss talking to her.
2long! Did you ever strip paint from sashes all on your own? I've done several, and I'm getting sick of it. It takes FOREVER! So today I called a restorer, hoping I could have him do my last two for me so I could get on to other things. Waaay too much $, even for two small sashes (with divided lights, which probably explains it). So I'm off to the garage to get going on another one...
Hey y'all. Taking a break from the massive cleaning frenzy. I wouldn't hate housework so much if it didn't get in the same decrepit state ten minutes later! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
FF, did you Massengil your dog? LOL, love that one. I forgot to mention, your house is absolutely beautiful! Did y'all do all the work on it yourselves? And you say the china cabinent is origianl? Wow.
SS, I've only seen one real creek, and that was in North Carolina. Here in TX (and in LA, where I'm from) they call creeks "cricks" and they're really naught but ditches. *sigh* In NC, some friends and I went "creekin'"-- followed the creek all the way up the mountain to the resevoir, and dove right in. It was so bloody icy it stole your breath, stopped your heart. I could go on but I don't want to bore the bejeebees out of everyone; suffice to say it was one heckuva experience. I've always been a water girl but this just rendered me an impossibley incurable one.
Gray, H's got this Save-the-World complex that extends especially to his folks. Taking care of them in their relative old age is something he has aspired to for years. I think it began when his little sister died way back in '84 and his whole family got wacked out. They've never been the same; neither has he. He thinks we can help them be happier. Hmmmmmmmm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Still, thanks for your opinions, everyone. I needed to hear it.
Hey Kimmy, Weaves, shuddup already about those gorgeous chicken legs! Some of us have the opposite problem, alrighty? LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Sakes alive, I can hear the screamin from in here! Let me go break up the fightin' between the 3 year old and the 5 year old. They're having another smackdown outside and I'm sure hairpullin' and mud are involved, like last time.
Weav - just planted another big hibiscus topiary, and a crepe myrtle. I'm sweatin like a stuck pig (sorry for the visual to all you who think southern women just get dewy). Make sure you come in SPRING! Geeze. The sun's even below the horizon....2long, I'm ready for swimmin' now! Where's my beer?
I love hibiscus topiary and crepe myrtle...like beer too. And yes definately in the spring. I'll be dating by then Kimmy, and I just can't wait to meet some of those Texan cowboys (again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). Just can't wait, oh yes and those latin fishermen, dayammmm!
Gray,
Liquid Sandpaper buddy boy! I'm going to start on my porch, soon as it cools down a a bit, and everyone tells me Liquid Sandpaper is the way to go!
Sakes alive, I can hear the screamin from in here! Let me go break up the fightin' between the 3 year old and the 5 year old. They're having another smackdown outside and I'm sure hairpullin' and mud are involved, like last time.
Ah the good ole days. We used to hold my lil sis down and rub salteens on her chest. Don't ask me why... but it sure ticked her off! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
My peeve is that they put the indoor plants in the blazing sun...drives me INSANE...but then I'm a plant girl...I keep threatening to apply there just so I can straighten that department out.
It's in the genes...my grandfather owned a plant import buisness, and my granmother worked as a holiday (Christmas only) landscaper in Dallas for the richies.
Oh, I was thinking more about the price that non-Americans pay for their low low prices, and about the indirect cost of their low low prices to Americans, like how they encourage their employees to go on public assistance and how their presence in communities is subsidized and whether after all that their low low prices are actually a good thing.
I don't know the answer. I suspect that Wal-Mart costs us all more than it saves us, but I'm not sure.
1 in 200 Americans works there. Does that mean Wal-Mart is a wonderful provider of jobs? Not sure.
Their refusal to permit their employees to organize is troublesome to me.
Something like 40% of Wisconsin's Wal-Mart employees are on some form of public assistance.
They recently fired their guy who's job it is to go to Central America and see that the manufacturers they buy from are compliant with some set of standards, I don't know whose. The fella claims that he was fired because when he found non-compliance (locked exits, 24-hour shifts, &c) he actually put it in his reports.
MMmmmmmm. Another interesting tidbit, they're now able to claim Eminent Domain and take your property if they want to put up a Wal-Mart and you're squattin' on "their" land.
Yeah, yeah, the city has to approve. But the thing is, the Supreme Court has already given them (the City) the go-ahead to sieze private land and turn it over to private developers for economic development. Scary, what things are coming to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
And yes, I still shop there, for many items. It's less than a block from my house, and so dang cheap. :: sigh ::
>They recently fired their guy who's job it is to go to Central America and see that the manufacturers they buy from are compliant with some set of standards, I don't know whose. The fella claims that he was fired because when he found non-compliance (locked exits, 24-hour shifts, &c) he actually put it in his reports.
I've my suspicions about ALL mfg out of country for American based cos.. It's all shady and fishy...not to mention unpatriotic....BUT! I, as a consumer, cannot afford to be picky. 5 kids we have, between Wookie and I...1 full time income (and a coppeaceman's wages at that), 1 part time income...we cannot AFFORD not to shop where we can pinch our pennies till they squeal. We'd have to sell one of the kids if we did.....hmmm?!?! No, wait. We can't do that...but...hehe.
I totally get where you're coming from. I know you get where I am. I just don't see a fix.
So you asked the recovery question to help you (emotionally) a little bit? Some days it's nice to get a little boost. Is he doing anything you are really worried about?
I still worry about his candidness with me. It is easy getting better but I still have to ask and pull things out of him. I want, need more reassurance. I am still aching from this last betrayal.
FF, did you Massengil your dog? LOL, love that one. I forgot to mention, your house is absolutely beautiful! Did y'all do all the work on it yourselves? And you say the china cabinent is origianl? Wow.
LOL, nope hydrogen peroxide and vinegar bath. No we both work and my H works 6 days so we hire out the work on the house. The upstairs and back of the house are the addition. Yep, we have beautiful original moulding and built-ins. I love this house. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I still worry about his candidness with me. It is easy getting better but I still have to ask and pull things out of him. I want, need more reassurance. I am still aching from this last betrayal.
Let it go for now Faith. Trust that it will come. Trust that even if he should backslide, you can handle it.
Have faith that he is what he appears to be. Do NOT speculate. Speculation is crippeling and a complete waste of time.
Faith, you act as if you are recovered. You be the brightly shining light, with loving indifference.
Do not let your fears and negativity cripple your love. What ever you believe to be true, is true. Build on this, his affairs are not important right now. Only your family is, let them go.
Got it. Oh Weaver, how do you manage to be here just when I need you? You and SS have been a light for me the past couple weeks. Thank you so much.
I had your words echoing in my head all weekend but we grappled over his cell phone and it set me back even though he showed me he doesn't answer the calls. I will start again this evening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I am speaking my mind now, and am not going to worry any longer if it is MB like.
You love your wife, and she is every bit worthy of that love. I know that you love her unconditionally and that she loves you. Her affair was/is a sorry attempt to keep true intimacy with you at bay. The reasons? I don't know. Maybe you hurt her, maybe you were indifferent and unavailable when she needed you. Maybe you had nothing to do with it.
But in the big picture, her affair is nothing. A minor detail in the avoidance of true intimacy, nothing more.
Let it go 2long. And take whatever positives you share together, and build on them.
You yourn (sp) for physical, emotional intimacy...well I got news for you, good luck finding it in the cold, hard world of singles.
What you have with your wife is friendship, build on that. Draw her to you. Make your fantacies about your wife and what you two could share, if only, a reality.
I don't think you should get divorced. I think you should practice patience, acceptance and forgiveness.
And the most importance of these is acceptance right now.
Screw the OM, he is meaningless. A brief and cheap distraction for her. You are her love. Know that and embrace it.
Cold hard world of singles is right. Everyone out there is so guarded. At least the women seem to be...
Though one of the women I talked to when I went out the other night, as soon as she told me how crazy she is about Sarah McLachlan and Sheryl Crow, that was it.
Just kidding. I'd have bought a car for her if she'd been interested. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Cold hard world of singles is right. Everyone out there is so guarded. At least the women seem to be...
Though one of the women I talked to when I went out the other night, as soon as she told me how crazy she is about Sarah McLachlan and Sheryl Crow, that was it.
Just kidding. I'd have bought a car for her if she'd been interested. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
GC
Yea I know it was a little presumptous of me. Don't want to see them divorce, that is all. But it is only my opinion, and subject to change.
Anyway since Kimmy put her order in first, I'm putting my in second.
I really need a new Blazer. Thank you in advance buddy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Act indifferent to the girls, they'll be all over you like flies on honey then.
GC, don't take this wrong because it is a compliment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, but I think it may take you a little longer to find a good woman. Why? Because you are kind, introspective, creative, artistic, loving and faithful...most women don't know how to react to that. Those are all amazing qualities and on top of that you have experienced great personal growth and are now armed with knowledge for a successful M. Something most women dream of but don't know what to do with when they find it. You will (I think)weed out all the women that crave drama in their lives and you will find THE woman but it may take a while. In the meantime, be true to yourself and your values for in the long run you have to live with YOU.
So do as Weaver suggests, act indifferent and just date with the idea of only having fun for a while.
Yeah, I've stripped a lot of sashes in my day. Our previous house, a Craftsman, had 35 "french door" style windows, all in need of repair and repaint. In the beginning, I tried various "goos", but decided a long time ago that I much prefer a heat gun on the low setting (so as not 2 burn stuff down, doncha know), and a good, thin putty knife that I grind the corners to match the curves in the moldings. Even better, especially on sash moldings and raised panel doors, is to get yourself one of those artist's pallet knives. They're very thin, flexible (but not 2), and have a nice rounded tip so as not 2 gouge the wood. Takes longer, but the results look like new because you get all the paint off without making a mess of the original lines.
Thanks for that. I think you're right and that is probably what I'm doing.
but I did have some moments of doubt this morning. Like, her OOSP property is "hers", yet she's been asking me about my plans 2 build an observatory out there, and though I'd like 2 do that - and could even do it in such a way that I could move the thing if I needed 2 - I still feel more like a "tourist" there than a partner.
Okay, really strange things been happening to me lately. Strange in strange, neither wonderful or bad, just strange.
Today I got a bouquette of flowers delivered to my office with a card that said "from you secret admirer, someone close by" Well that freaked me out a little bit. I'm thinking all day, how close? Is that yucky or romantic.
Then I went to the grocery store after work, and three guys came over and said hi to me, at different times although I think they were together (tourists), then I go to leave and there is a man at the ATM machine looking at me and when I walked by he smiled and said hi, but then he got done in a hurry and was right behind me in the parking lot walking to his vehicle I guess. No harm there, but then a big white truck was following me home I think, with a guy in it and I kept thinking if he is still behind me I am not turning into my drive. Well he turned, so I pulled in and went to put the hose on soak in the garden out front before I came in the house and I see that truck drive right by my house.
Well I always got attention from the guys, but never cared cuz I was either in love with DD's dad or Dan for the last 12 years, never dated much either before that. Had no interest in meeting new guys, my whole life I've been like that.
But now ever since I said to heck with everything I am just going to enjoy life and never worry about love again, things been happening.
Very strange. And yes I am making sure all the doors are locked tonight.
Oh and also I been getting PM's on this other board from two girls who both are convinced my ex is coming back, even though I said he probably wasn't this time.
Well I'm just going to keep reading my books and working on a positive attitude.
Strange, Weaver...almost like you are being followed. Not stalked but like PI type followed. Maybe your new attitude is so good you are sending out beautiful vibes that men find they can't resist. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hey Faith, I looked at your house. Oh my gosh it is beautiful. How nice!
Thanks! We bought it at an undermarket price almost 3 years ago and now would be priced out of our own house! The housing market here is so insane, but the good thing is we have lots of equity. We were very lucky to get this house and I am very thankful. It has been well loved and cared for over the years. It was built in 1918. It also has a full size basement which my 21 y/o DS lives in, very unusual for Calif.
weaver, oozing contentedly away to gloat and do you know why?????
Because the other strange thing that happened was the title co which handled the sale of the island property neglected to have me sign a quit claim deed, called me today asked if they could send somebody right over to have me sign.
Oh what to do, what to do.
To sign or not to sign <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Sorry SS. If it's any consolation, it's too hot here to cook...so we're gonna have sno-cones right now, then sandwiches or salad again when the sun goes down.
Whatever Ms. Weav decides to do, I know she'll do it with grace and style...not vengence....but I dunno how she'd keep from keeping Dan from squirming for awhile........
Oh squirm, and talk to ME. Oh yes, he'll love that. I can't wait. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Quote
Whatever Ms. Weav decides to do, I know she'll do it with grace and style...not vengence....but I dunno how she'd keep from keeping Dan from squirming for awhile........
I'm still thinking. Will report later tonight, and see if I can put my thoughts in to something that will be useful. I'm still at work for awhile. Time zones being what they are.
Tonight Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson are stopping here on their ballpark tour. Can't go what with the gig and all... so we're playing "Time of the Preacher".
Weaver, I love it when you agree to something unseemly, and then you get things stuck in front of you to sign. Every time, I think... what if I don't?
I think you should sit on it for a bit, maybe consult an attorney. Not to be hard-nosed or nasty, just to make sure you're doing what's best for the lovely Ms. Weaver.
Thanks, SS. It's so late, it doesn't much matter how little sleep I get. I'll be on fumes tomorrow morning regardless.
The show went well. Turned out we were headlining. Had a decent crowd. No broken strings, no broken gear. A few people danced. Not bad for a Tuesday night. Our Willie Nelson cover went over pretty well. Our singer is goooood.
I'm a real sad tomato, a busted valentine.
I want my life to change. How, that's the tricky part. It's kinda the same as it was before. I spend more time thinking about important, very serious, stuff, and I still spend a ton of idle time thinking about what I've lost. I'm less concerned with trivial things. But my routine is largely the same as it was before, with the exception that I work on my house with every spare moment. Otherwise... I work, I play music, I go out once in a while, I see my family, I see my friends. It's not bad. Just... the same. Too much, the same. And very solitary.
I remember a line from "Firefly" - one of the characters says to another, who's about to do something noble, "I don't want you to die alone." The guy replies, "We all die alone."
What do you do though? Create some huge change? Get a new job? Sell the house? Quit the band? I love my job. I love my house. My band are my friends. But do these things shackle me? Oh, golly.
Often I feel like dropping everything and moving away, really starting over. There are a few places where I could do work similar to what I do now. All far away, in the mountains or on the coasts or overseas. I could have a simpler life, meet new people, get away from the places that carry the stain of my old life. I am still haunted. And many people dream of having the sort of freedom I have. Is it squandered if I stay where I am?
and I still spend a ton of idle time thinking about what I've lost
You have to stop this. What ever we think about the most becomes our reality. What ever we think about the most becomes largest in our life.
Stop thinking about it Gray, and start visualizing what you want. Moving may or may not be your answer, but I don't think you really want to leave everything and everyone you love. You have more friends than most people, and a very good life.
It is so hard being the one dumped, and still living the same life as before. Loss is very, very hard.
But there comes a time when you must put it away for good.
Refuse to think about it anymore, shrink it in your mind.
Do you know how to visualize Gray? Yes you do because you keep visualizing life as it was when sparrow was in it. Stop it, this is causing you pain.
A year is not a long enough time to get over what you have experienced. Two years is probably more realistic, but you can help speed up the process and draw lots more joy into your life with positive visualization and "acting as if".
I will copy part of a book I am reading which is having a profound effect on me and how I am letting my pain go.
The book is by Royce Adams -
" "Act as if"
"Pretend to what is not, and that the passions's over, so you'll become, in truth what you are studying to be" ~ From "The Cures for Love"...Ovid
The above words from Ovid the Roman are probably the first words written in connection with the principle of "Act as if" (in regard to the loss of love and letting go) Plato has also been credited with the principle. In modern times it was Professor Williams James, who coined the actual expression of "Act as if and the mind will produce your desire" and set off it's use in a much broader sense early in the 20th century.
James found that sitting quietly in meditation for 15 minutes or more visualizing the desired end result focused the brain and body to seek out our objectives.
"Acting as if" is very strong psychological method that utilizes a wonderful property of the human brain. The brain cannot distinguish between a vivid fantasy and objective reality." "
Gray the mind is a very, very powerful thing. Do not allow thoughts of sadness and loss to attract more sadness and loss into your life. You control this Gray. What sparrow and tm stole from you does not.
Time for you to refuse to let sadness/loss rob you of joy.
Would going back to that be best for you, and for paige?
I don't have the answers, just the questions.
Remember who you want to be - what's the best way to get there?
Pray, it'l come to you.
SS,
You know I haven't even been thinking about the island anymore, I let it go almost immediately. I am an expert on loss, LOL. I have been through it too many times to allow it to impede on my happiness.
I was in extreme grief and dispair right after this happened, and I grieved a thousand tears in a few weeks, and then I let it go.
I do not want to have anything to do with the property. And I will sign the form, but first I want a chance to turn things around for myself. To walk a away the better person, and not the victim. If that makes sense. I want to be able to run into Dan and feel guinine feelings of compassion and friendship. I am unable to let go having feelings of anger. So for my own mental health I will turn it around.
Do I want to go back with him? The way he was when he dumped me, no. If he experiences radical change and growth? Possibly. I won't rule it out.
And I am praying, visualizing, and acting as if...and I know that I am going to draw only good things into our life now. If he is not good... well he won't be in it.
My prayers are often a request that God lets me know if there was deception in what Dan did. I still need to know if there was deception or just an honest breakup. When I have the answer to this, I think I will be able to fully heal and move on.
You have to stop this. What ever we think about the most becomes our reality. What ever we think about the most becomes largest in our life.
Working on that, weaver. Getting better at it, but like you say, I might just need more time. But also definitely more practice.
I'd like to do some more reading. After putting down the last of the "affair" books (long ago), the only thing I've read, other than stuff about religious and spiritual practice, is something my brother's GF gave me called Mars & Venus Starting Over. Found it to be a little lightweight and pop-psychy and only read maybe a third of it.
Weaver, check in when you can. And hon, you're getting this second chance for a reason. It's either to reclaim your property (to do what with, is wholly up to you) or to show Dan that you would indeed hand it over to him even without the shennanigans. Either way I look at it, you are a winner. You get what's yours, or you get to show the Turkey that you are that much more of the woman we know you to be (despite what he's become). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Take a second and enjoy the view for all of us. Not in a Nyah-nyah-nyah-boo-boo kind of way, but an Aaaaaahhhhh, kind of way.
'Cause no matter what you decide, it was on YOUR terms. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SLH, I sent you an email, did you get it? And yes to all the rest.
2long, just stick with hotwings and salmon, that's what I do.
SS, yes, and I will.
I need to take Gray up to the mountains in Tibet and find a good spiritual healer. Forgiveness is the answer Gray, it will free you from your self imposed prison.
I am reading a story of a young woman who was burned very, very badly as a little girl by napalm. Her clothes were burned off of her and their were pictures of her running down the road in nam crying "too hot, too hot".
She says she forgave the man who ordered the napalm spraying, and this is what she says when asked "if I hate those who are imperfect I would have to hate all of mankind, including myself because we are all imperfect".
And many other stories of people who have forgiven horrindous autrocities against them including the father whose three teenage daughters were murdered by a jilted suiter of the oldest. He ended up going to the prison and forgiving the murderer in person.
Both of these incredible people now write books and teach forgiveness and inner peace.
I called the florist today and they refused to tell me who sent the flowers, saying that he instructed that his name be withheld. Creepy.
Weaver, I agree with you that the flower sender is creepy.
I've never understood why anyone would do something like that anonymously...I mean, don't they want credit for doing something nice?
Or maybe their thought is to do it anonymously to see if you can figure it out. If so, someone is waiting for you to know it was them, so you can say thanks....what flawed thinking huh?
I know it is really bothering me now. I keep checking my doors. I'm sure it is innocent but it is really getting to me. I guess guys don't understand how girls can get really scared, especially when they live alone.
Even at work I didn't want to walk outside today because I was afraid someone was looking at me.
Your situation reminds me of a very strange story that happened many years ago.
My department had several sales managers and 2 secretaries.
One of the secretaries was having trouble in her marriage...
One day she got flowers "anonymously". Drove her crazy in a big way. Her husband worked in our building and he was puzzled and slightly amused.
I suspected that one of our fellow department employees sent her the flowers in an effort to make her husband jealous. I called each one in and told them I wanted the truth, no consequence if they told me the truth, because I would rather put this secretary's mind at ease then punish the stupid yet probably well meaning person.
No one fessed-up. Years later after I moved to a different city, new job etc - I was having lunch with a guy who worked at the same place at the time.
He knew all about the flowers, and he knew who sent them...it was the other secretary in our department. I was livid....that chicken####, she was the one I suspected the most. She looked me in the eye and lied to me....Grrrrrrrrr I would have called her if I'd known where to find her even after all these years.
....and yes, her motivation was to make the husband jealous so he would pay more attention to his wife! Sheesh!!
...well, after the following stuff, I take it back. that was NOT me! (it WAS ss! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
Oh my gosh, you're 2 funny 2long. I know it wasn't either of you, these were pink roses and pink/white orchids. You guys would have probably sent carnations! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I love those pastel daisies though.
Csue,
That's what I told everyone at work, this isn't funny it's making me sick. But everyone at work seemed to think it was creepy too.
One guy actually said, well it's probably some married guy. And I said well wouldn't his wife notice the purchase coming out of some account? And this guy actually said "oh I doubt anyone would notice ten bucks". LOL This guy is single, and I never laughed so hard. He has obviously never bought anyone flowers. And he is known as a bit of a tightwad! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
2long, I went into the florest, but there was already a guy ahead of me and I figured two in one day would really freak her out. I could give a description though.
I wouldn't be scared - men think this way. Someone is trying to be nice.
And therein lies the trouble with guys! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And in Csue's example the trouble with some girls.
I Csue's point though, trying to make a husband jealous when there are already serious issue's in the marraige seems ludicrous. I'm surprised it was a girl who ordered the flowers in that sitch, and then not even tell the wife? Too strange.
Weaver, of course you're right. A mountaintop, that sounds good. Will there be cairns and colored flags strung around? 'Cause I really go for that stuff.
Guys have lots more problems than that, but I won't make a list, it would take too long.
It's good that there is such a thing as love, it provides incentive to work it out. One day I was ranting about our differences, and my W said "I thought you liked SOME of our differences.: I shut up, and haven't complained about that since.
I bet that girl realized what she had created, and opted out. I can't say I blame her after things got out of hand.
I suspect you will hear more from this person that sent the flowers.
SS, I would not ever send flowers anonymously. But I guess some silly dudes would.
Weaver, if you can... if it's okay... could you tell some more about losing your parents? I remember you saying once that it was a big, big, colossal, crippling loss.
It was Gray, for a good year and probably longer I would dream of them and then wake up in the morning and realize that the dream was merely that. It felt each and every morning that I was hit by a mack truck upon wakening and remembering that they were gone.
My aunt told me it would take one year, going through all the seasons without them before I could feel happiness again. It took more like two though. I spent many days after work driving into their driveway, not remembering that they were gone until I was in the driveway. Then I would cry all the way home.
They were my best friends, (as troubled as they were after Viet Nam), and losing them is the greatest loss of my life.
It still bothers me to see people about the age my parents would be now with their kids out on vacation or having dinner together.
My DD named every doll and stuffed animal in the house either Pat or Jim. She missed them too and she was 4 when they died but they took care of her those 4 years while I worked.
Gray when you lose someone as you have with sparrow, your life will never be as it was. You have experienced a loss of such magnitude that it will alter you for the rest of your life. But you will find happiness in other areas, and after awhile new attachments will form which will replace the loss.
For me with the loss of my parents it took time. And I don't exagerate the two years bit. But then I met Dan and my life was filled with joy again.
You will find love again Gray, and the pain will be completely gone. I promise.
This time for me, I am going to find happiness alone though. I must.
But you are younger than me, and you have experienced the betrayal of one woman. You can get past this and find love again. Better than you had before.
You simple must believe, and use your mind (positive thoughts and visualizations only) to your advantage.
It's about acceptance Gray, and forgiveness. It really is.
I sued the hospital where my mom was treated after her absessed tooth caused an infection in her heart. I was filled with hate, hate for doctors and nurses. They failed to do the simple procedure of intebating her when she couldn't catch her breath and eventually couldn't breathe. She spent a week in a coma before my brother made the decision to pull life support. It was the most horible thing you can ever imagine to pull life support from the person you loved most in the world. My dad killed himself a few months later. It took me a long time to forgive the emergency room which I feel killed her with their lack of emergency skills. Even the ET's which helped me with my dad told me I should have called them, they know how to intebate a patient.
Well, GC, I was reading up on what I missed on this thread, and had to log in to make a reply to this one.
You know, I'm a simple-minded guy, I used to buy flowers for my wife - because I thought she would enjoy having them. She thought that I was trying to buy something from her. I was always startled by that assumption. One time, she stuffed a dozen rozes in the trash - because she resented having to "pay" for them. When I give something to somebody, it's because I want to please them, not because I want something from them! So, anonymously sent flowers are just flowers. If a woman like flowers, why not like anonymously sent flowers?
So, Weave, just enjoy them and throw them out when they fade - and forget about it. They're just flowers.
Oh, we had our flower problems, yes we did...
The very first time I sent her flowers, it was an arrangment of 15 red roses - about $75, delivered, if I recall correctly. She hated it. She gave half of them away to somebody - said the arrangement looked like something to place at a monument on veterans day.
I'll explain the 15. Russians have this "thing" about flowers. I learned in Russian class (or somewhere), that you give even numbers of flowers for the dead and odd number of flowers to living people. So, being an engineer, I thought on this problem. A dozen is the standard count. If I added one, that would be 13 - and I was afraid that she would take it as a bad omen. If I removed one, it would be 11, but it would seem that I took something out - and that didn't seem right either. 9 or 7 seemed a bit on the light side, so I sent an arrangement of 15. Since she hated it, I never again gave red roses. Now, I think she might like some, but I marked red roses off my list for good long before we were married. Later, I found out that the even/odd thing only matters for small numbers. Boo-kay's of 3,5 or 7 blossoms are good for Russian ladies.
Eventually, I learned to just bring home simple $4 boo-kay's from Wal-mart - and just put them on the table without comment. That's what she would accept - 'cause they were just flowers. Once in a while I would bring roses, but they would always be multicolored - a bit less "romantic". In recent years, she generally accepted them gracefully.
Weaver, what a sad story. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I have great disdain for most ER docs because of my DS so I can understand your anger. My H was angry for so long and even the "positive" outcome of our malpractice suit didn't help because the ER docs came out unscathed. The peds took the brunt of the blame even though in OUR hearts the ER docs failed my baby.
2l, did you see the pics I reposted for you of my house?
I really didn't notice. Only people who have manners notice those missing from others - but if they really have manners, they don't say anything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Weaves, I am terribly sorry for bringing up the living-with-your-parents topic the other night. I had no idea you went through so much. How heartbreaking.
FF, What happened with your ER docs?
I have my own reasons for hating our local ER docs but none of them come close to what you guys have suffered.
Weaves, bay, I mailed you before I saw all this.\\slh
FF, in your case it might be what caused a breakdown in your family. For both you and casey. I am so very glad you two are together again! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
AD, you are quite the guy, most would have just given up on the complexity of flower giving in your home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Only Csue understands the flower thing, and that is enough for me.
So subject closed, until I get some wierd freaky card that says, "from your secret admirer, closer now", then we can re-open the discussion, after I go to the police that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Yep. Saw them! Beautiful! Did you see the pics from my DDs wedding in March? email me at **edit** if not, and you'd like 2.
ER stories:
I was on jury duty a few years back on a malpractice lawsuit. I've been on jury duty a number of times (they seem 2 know that where I work they've got a pool of several thousand "trolls" from which 2 draw). This was by far the least pleasant experience of them all. 15 days, 10 of which were hearing the case. We ended up having 2 decide what a grandmother's time was worth, in dollars, 2 her grandkids if she'd lived 5 more years, assuming a certain number of hours a week, dollars per hour... I hated that part most of all.
"I learned in Russian class (or somewhere), that you give even numbers of flowers for the dead and odd number of flowers to living people. So, being an engineer, I thought on this problem."
When I build telescopes with wooden tubes, I like using odd numbers of sides. That way, there's a ridge opposite a face. I'm just funny that way. I think starfish would be less "artful" if they had 4 legs... ...or 6.
I ac2ally made a couple of 12-sided 2bes for telescopes that I sold a long time ago. 2 many cuts on the table saw, though. 6 or 8 is another popular number, but the corners are 2 sharp for me, and most mirror cells have 3 support arms, so a multiple of 3 sounded good. The 2 faceted-2be scopes I still have both have 9 sides (a "nonogon", really!). First one I made out of Indian Rosewood when you could still buy the stuff in the US. 2nd is Teak.
this is important... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
JustJ, You still have things on your mind. Is it normal stuff? Or is it the future, and all the things you still continue to wonder about?
It’s the future, Still Seeking. The future, my place in it, what I’m doing, whether I’m really doing ethical things. It’s hard to tell sometimes. Really hard.
These days, it’s compounded by coming to the realization that I need to deal with some things that have affected me since I was a teenager. Primary infertility at that age is very rare – and the few of us who are affected by it seem to have a fairly standard reaction. Acting out sexually, internalizing a lot of yucky “I’m permanently broken” stuff, various other things. I thought I had worked it through, and most of it I have. There is one area where I haven’t. I haven’t dealt with it in the context of wanting a long-term, permanent marriage (with lots of kids) with a man. I find that I think that I can’t have that because my ovaries don’t work. In a lot of ways, that makes completely perfect sense. In a lot of other ways, it doesn’t. Either way, I guess it’s time to figure out whether I can ever feel as though I’ve healed those wounds.
How is the garden, SS? Tomatoes coming along well?
JJ, I wrote you this loooooong reply and my H erased it by accident went doing something on my computer. I will try to write more later -- please don't think I didn't respond. dang technology. Can't live with it. . .
SLH, I understand. Technology is a blessing when it works, and a curse when it fails us. I’m writing this in Word, myself, for fear of doing something similar. I’m tired tonight and in something of a melancholy mood, and I tend to allow my moods to affect the care with which I treat things like the “close” button on browser windows.
No more chandelier nights!
I had to chuckle at this in spite of the melancholy. I hope you –do- have a chance to swing from the lights, wherever you are.
2Long, you dirty old man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
GC, is it possible that there’s something else you’re grieving? It’s hard to separate out grief into nice little piles. It tends to run together into one big pile.
And…. Another thought. Sometimes emotions hang around for a really long time when they’re taking the place of a more accurate emotion. Depression, for example, is anger turned inward. It hangs around because it’s not motivating you to do the thing that you need to do.
Then again, I’m not really one to talk. I’m not depressed, but it’s still two years later and I still stand in my house sometimes and just stare into space and wonder where the hell the love of my life went. I hate myself for still feeling that way. But you know? It’s true. I remember vividly the first time I really looked at my ex, from across a crowded room where we were doing our classical mechanics problem sets. (Yes, I know, we’re geeks.) The image of her tiny, perfect, elfin face is still crystal clear. The green sweater she was wearing, the big heavy Midwestern overcoat of some indeterminate color. Her face was rounder then, still a little baby fat in it. She was 17. I had turned 19 three months before. I asked her that night whether she had considered double-majoring in astronomy and something else. She said no – astronomy was the only thing she was interested in.
Now I’m nearly 38 years old. I remember that conversation like it was yesterday. And a whole host of little details from then, and from every month of every year we were together. Mostly they blur into the past. Mostly they’re irrelevant to me these days. A part of my past. Long dead. As with much of my college experience, a pipe dream. Four years of the best moments of my life, with a lasting effect on my soul and – these days – no effect on the rest of my reality.
It takes a while to get through those moments. It takes a long while. Especially if you take the time, like you and I did, to fight for your marriage rather than diving right into the work of “get over it” that so many people encouraged us to do.
Weaver, please don’t be freaked out by flowers. Really. In some places, there seems to be a tradition of anonymous flower-giving. I don’t exactly know why, but there is. The people I’ve talked to about it think of it much the way someone would think of Santa Claus. The joy is in the gift, not in being known for it. And sometimes, when you’re down, it’s not a bad thing to have the universe manifest flowers for you. Pink roses and white orchids are not a creepy person’s gift, either. That’s a sign of someone who’s just trying to brighten your day. Hurray for you, and hurray for them!
I got anonymous flowers for my birthday in 2003. Big beautiful sunflowers. I really wondered who they were from, and had a lot of fun trying to guess. It took me three days to look at my brother and say, “Hey, did YOU send them?” He laughed for five minutes before admitting that he had. I love my brother. Both of them, in fact, but the other one doesn’t appear in this story.
I also remember sending my ex flowers when she took our daughter to Idaho to “think.” I wanted only to brighten her day. She was furious for, oh, roughly the rest of eternity. Because I was invading her space.
It was not until this week that I finally understood that. I’m taking a class on anger, resentment, blame, and compassion. The class is given by Steven Stosny, who was recently on Oprah for his work to end abuse. It’s absolutely fascinating. In the course of the class, he explained how the emotional states of two people can become entwined enough that one person’s sadness or fear or any other emotion can trigger resentment, blame, guilt, etc. in the other. Those emotions are so hard to deal with, and so intertwined with the first person’s emotions, that it effectively becomes a punishment mechanism for the second person, though the first person may not even know about it. That starts a cycle where the unhappiness leads to resentment which leads to a sense that the other person is punishing them, which isn’t fair, which leads to more resentment, probably negative responses, more hurt and upset… The cycle feeds on itself to the point where even the most benign, positive, and harmless things are upsetting because the person who’s resentful is so angry that they don’t feel worthy to receive a gift – and that just makes them uncomfortable and more pissed off.
It still happens. The text message about our daughter’s experience with the water was a good example. And there were brownies last year, pictures this year. A long list of examples.
I occasionally think, and sometimes even say, that a little courtesy and gratitude would help things. My ex doesn’t listen, of course. Because that, too, is a punishment.
Hopeless? Perhaps not. But certainly very difficult. I’m glad I don’t live in a world where gifts are seen as punishment. It seems like a very sad place indeed.
I had not heard the story of your parents before....what an enormous loss. They had to be young by the sound of it. I simply can't imagine your loss. I am blessed to still have my father; and although it's been 22 years since my mother died, I feel the same as you - envy when I see others my age who still have their mother!
They say one never gets over the loss of their mother, especially if they lose her at a young age like you did. Did you ever see the movie "Beaches" with Bette Midler? It's one of my favorite movies and the part where Bette's best friend who lost her mom frantically looks for a picture of her mother's hands, is just so true.
I am sorry for your loss of your mom too Csue.
JJ,
That is how I feel about Dan. No one wants to hear how I love and miss him, but I do. Probably always will, but I will be happy as will you and Gray. And the depression being anger turned inward is probably right on in Gray's case. The first act of happiness is self-forgiveness, the second is forgiveness of others transgressions against you. Gray has regrets and until he can look at them, disect them and name them, self-forgiveness will not happen.
Gray, I'm worried about you, & I care so much about you. Keep talking about it. It is very important to keep talking about it, and here you are safe to do that. No one will ever tire of hearing about it here.
To answer your question honestly and I must, I am giving it a year. In that time I will become the best person I can become, and if after a year nothing has changed for me in my personal relationship sitch, I will consider it to have happened for the best.
I don't have his story yet, except what he told me on the phone when I last spoke to him. And I know he loves me. I don't know why I know that but I do. And I know how powerful emotions are, and I know that he was very, very upset over the trip thing. I also know that he is with someone else right now. All of these things I know but I still have hope, and I still believe.
I'm sorry, I hope I am not disappointing you but I am speaking from my heart. And my heart is hanging on, and I trust it. And I also know that I will be happy regardless.
I read this tonight and it seams so true -
"the belief that one's own view of reality is the only reality is the most dangerous of all delusions"
I was asked a question today, in a workbook "if you only had one year to live, how would you spend it?" Well given my choice I would spend it with Paige and Dan. This tells me all I need to know for now.
I believe he will be back, and I am not going to have personal regrets this time around.
I was on jury duty a few years back on a malpractice lawsuit. I've been on jury duty a number of times (they seem 2 know that where I work they've got a pool of several thousand "trolls" from which 2 draw). This was by far the least pleasant experience of them all. 15 days, 10 of which were hearing the case. We ended up having 2 decide what a grandmother's time was worth, in dollars, 2 her grandkids if she'd lived 5 more years, assuming a certain number of hours a week, dollars per hour... I hated that part most of all.
-ol' 2long
2long, this was a very upsetting experience for us as well in our lawsuit. Determining the value of someone's life in dollars, how can you. It's an aboration for sure.
Weaver, thanks for telling that story. I hope it didn't stir up too much sorrow for you.
I have no expectation that I'm going to be resentful forever. Not a chance. I just don't know what this one-sided forgiveness looks like, not yet.
J... you and I, we've walked a few of the same streets, haven't we?
Least important among them... I might portray myself as a cool rock 'n' roll dude, but I'm a pretty big nerd really. Hell, as an undergrad I WAS A PHYSICS MAJOR! For my senior project I built a mechanical device that was a chaos demonstrator. NERD ALERT.
Weaver, yes, spend that year. Because, well, because of the Jim Croce song.
If I could save time in a bottle The first thing that I’d like to do Is to save every day Till eternity passes away Just to spend them with you
If I could make days last forever If words could make wishes come true I’d save every day like a treasure and then, Again, I would spend them with you
And because if I could spend a year any way I wanted to, it would be with my ex and our daughter.
And no, SS, I’m not falling backward into longing for something I can’t have. Just acknowledging. And also acknowledging that I don’t want her back the way she is now. And I have important things to do with my life that don’t include her. They are, simply, not the things I wanted to do.
Hi, GC. Yeah, I was a physics major too, and so was my ex. It’s a combined physics and astronomy major at Carleton. I only took one astro class. She took more.
And yeah. We’ve walked more than a few of the same roads. And Gray, I think Weaver’s got some good points. I remember when I met you at Penny’s house last fall, I was surprised by how angry you are – and don’t talk about. You might want to talk about it a little. We’re not going to be surprised, you know. We’ve all felt it, too. And I certainly have had a hard time dealing with my own anger, so you’re not going to surprise me there, either.
And hey, if you see car4love and her kids, give her my love, ok? She’s a darned fine person.
The 2 faceted-2be scopes I still have both have 9 sides (a "nonogon", really!). First one I made out of Indian Rosewood when you could still buy the stuff in the US. 2nd is Teak.
this is important... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'd like to hang out with you under less duress sometime.
Okay then. Yeah, I've been mad as a hornet.
I spend a fair amount of time thinking on it.
I guess the heart of it is that when someone betrays you this way, and then they refuse to hear about your pain, there's such an eradication.
They say, your pain doesn't matter to me. But they also say, the very fact that you suffer says that you are crazy and unreasonable and desperate.
They go a step beyond just saying, "I don't care that you hurt." To ease their guilt, they do something still more damaging. They say, "You have no right to hurt."
My W reduced me to the status of some loser who kept asking her out despite repeated refusals. She took me from being her hero and guardian to being an annoyance, almost overnight.
She didn't just break her promises. She pretended that she'd never made them.
FF, in your case it might be what caused a breakdown in your family. For both you and casey. I am so very glad you two are together again!
I agree Weaver that it contributed greatly to the state of our M and family. I am really proud of Casey these days, he finally is accepting our son for the way he is and is no longer angry or ashamed of him. Big strides. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SLH, my DS took ill at age 7 months with encephalitis the pediatrician and the ER docs failed to diagnose for 2 days worth of ER and ped visits. 2nd day they admitted him to the hospital and still failed to treat (now the hospital ped)until he showed full blown encephalopothy symptons, by then severe brain damage. 4 years later we settled out of court. All we wanted was our son to get the care he needs and deserves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
I guess the heart of it is that when someone betrays you this way, and then they refuse to hear about your pain, there's such an eradication.
They say, your pain doesn't matter to me. But they also say, the very fact that you suffer says that you are crazy and unreasonable and desperate.
They go a step beyond just saying, "I don't care that you hurt." To ease their guilt, they do something still more damaging. They say, "You have no right to hurt."
My W reduced me to the status of some loser who kept asking her out despite repeated refusals. She took me from being her hero and guardian to being an annoyance, almost overnight.
She didn't just break her promises. She pretended that she'd never made them.
That's the kernel of it, I think.
If we took the word betrayal out of the equation how would it look? Would it feel differentally? I am taking the word betrayal out of my vocabulary.
Betrayal is a very ugly word, it hurts me and keeps me stuck in a place I don't want to be. It portrays someone I love/loved as a monster, and that hurts me too.
It hurts me to hold onto anger/blame, and it is in direct conflict with what I profess to feel for someone, love.
And it makes it very unlikely that I will ever have another chance with him, or be able to love another in the way that I want to.
If I choose not to forgive him, unless he becomes repentent, then I choose to be stuck in a very bad place, a place of anger/blame.
Love can not live in that place. It is that simple. It is all about acceptance and forgiveness. Accepting that we are all imperfect, and loving each other regardless.
To love someone is to forgive them. To love ourselves is also to forgive.
Would I wait until he comes back on his knees and begs my forgiveness before I offered it? That would be a self imposed prison that would slowly kill me.
For me, I have radically changed my perception. And every day I grow happier and stronger. I believe that I am becomming a person worthy of love, both of giving and receiving.
I think I died somehow when I got those messages on my machine, but now my happiness is becomming real, and nothing will ever jeoperdise that again. Because all along it was me who controlled my own happiness, I did him and me a great diservice when I placed that burden at his feet.
I still have moments those, and in those dark, angry, blaming moments I just feel so bad that I am learning to reduce them. And then there are the moments of self-pity and fear that I will never know that kind of love again. Yuck! I get rid of those feelings as fast as I can too.
If sparrow and tm could feel the pain they have left in their wake, it would probably engulf and destroy them. They are not strong enough to do that Gray. But you and car4love are strong enough to handle this, and even thrive someday. I wouldn't wish what they have done on anyone, it is simply to awful a burden to carry. And if they don't somehow find a way to atone then it will destroy them in other ways. Bad ways that come from within.
Don't you see that Gray?
As far as Dan goes, I know that he was not able to break up with me in a decent way. He could not face me, he was afraid of either my tears or my anger. He made a decision to move on in another direction without me. His life is guided by fear, disguised as other things but fear none the less.
2Long, I got the pics. Your DD is so lovely and so IN LOVE! I just love seeing the looks on their faces. What a beautiful home you have. Thanks for sharing.
All we wanted was our son to get the care he needs and deserves
FF, Hugs to you. I hope discussing this hasn't brought you down today, or depressed you. I know how vulnerable the soul can be. I'm so sorry this happened, but at the same time, I know what a blessing W has become for you.
NO SLH, did not bring me down. I love and accept my son as he is, he is a blessing to me and he forced me to grow up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> OTOH, I do grieve every day of my life for the child I lost though I dearly love the child I gained, KWIM?
Isn't it sad how much pain there is around these campfires? The light of the fire itself seems so small sometimes, when all the pain comes up close to it, like the darkness itself is stealing away the light.
And yet, our pain eventually brings us closer to the light. I don't understand that. Maybe I will someday.
Faithful, my sister suffered severe brain damage while she was still in utero due to a viral flu that my mom had (it was a flu that swept the country during the Vietnam war, brought back by guys who were coming back to the States). I've always wondered what she would be like if it weren't for that event. I value the sister I have greatly -- I would never have been able to find my shoes and book back without her -- and I still miss the sister that I would have been able to call up and tell my troubles to and have her talk me through what to do about it. So yeah, I have some idea what you mean. Having actually met the child you lost, rather than just knowing he would have been there, must make it different. But also still similar.
GC, all that hurt and anger is real. It's true. It's absolutely worth feeling in great detail.
And it's worth looking under it.
You were terribly badly hurt because someone -- sparrow -- who you loved very much suddenly changed their opinion of you, and in a negative direction.
In stark terms, your self-worth was based, in part, on what sparrow thought of you. So when she changed her view completely, it sent you into a very confused and chaotic state. Upside-down and in terrible pain.
And you're still angry with her for it. Rightly so!
To separate from that on its most basic level, you're going to have to re-value yourself. Learn, on a primal level, that her evaluation of you is not where your worth as a human comes from. Learn, on a primal level, that no matter what sparrow does, she cannot betray -YOU- again. Because your worth as a person is not under her control.
And to do that, you're going to have to remember that you DO have tremendous worth, that you're lovable, that you are accepted, that you are respected, that you're competent.
That's god-awful hard work. But hey, did you have anything better to do with the rest of your life?
The Dalai Lama says to start with helping other people, even in small ways. Because that help reminds you that you can make a difference in this world. And that you can make a difference, too.
and I still miss the sister that I would have been able to call up and tell my troubles to and have her talk me through what to do about it. So yeah, I have some idea what you mean. Having actually met the child you lost, rather than just knowing he would have been there, must make it different. But also still similar.
Yes J, that is it in a nutshell. I grieve every single day for him but love him every day.
Isn't it sad how much pain there is around these campfires? The light of the fire itself seems so small sometimes, when all the pain comes up close to it, like the darkness itself is stealing away the light.
And I can't wait for the day when we all gather in joy, and the pain has long been forgotten.
From the songs of David (I think) -
"And those who sow in tears, shall reap the glad song of joy"
Weaver, J, I've tried several times to write replies to both your recent postings. They keep getting too long and disconnected.
Weaver, I don't know what the forgiveness you write about looks like, not yet. I also disagree that consuming anger and resentment are the only alternative to it.
I'm gonna feel however I'm going to feel for a while longer. I'm pretty sure you can't cheat your way out of grief by forgiving the people who have injured you. And when I forgive the sparrow, it's gonna be for real and for permanent.
J, you hit the nail. I saw myself as whatever was reflected in sparrow's eyes, so when she told me I was unlovable and that I deserved her rejection, I believed it, intuitively, even though I knew better.
Learning, on a primal level, that who we are has nothing to do with how other people feel about us, is a hard trick. How do you love someone without giving them some of that power?
Weaver, I don't know what the forgiveness you write about looks like, not yet. I also disagree that consuming anger and resentment are the only alternative to it.
I'm gonna feel however I'm going to feel for a while longer. I'm pretty sure you can't cheat your way out of grief by forgiving the people who have injured you. And when I forgive the sparrow, it's gonna be for real and for permanent.
Yep, can't go around it, have to go through it.
And in our own ways.
Have a good weekend too Gray. I'll be trying out that liquid sandpaper on my porch, if it cools down that is.
Told the idjits, now the fireflies...9 years ago right now I was happily in labor....
My daughter is glowing today. She has decided NOT to change out of her pjs and is watching Shrek 2. We have a date later to cornrow the front of her hair so that it frames her face, and I'll give her a pedi.
Nothing says girly-girl than a pj/day of beauty day, right?
Shows you how much I know, Kimmy! LOL I hope you have a fun girly day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I am alone with DS this weekend. H and DD went camping! I am looking forward to some ME time after DS goes to sleep.
SS, my goodness...thank you! I am rather self assured but have many, many doubts stirring around inside. Lots of hurts in life to overcome and heal from. I did a lot of my childhood healing with my IC last year. She was terrific, best I have ever met. Today, I am confident, happy, strong and crazy in love with my H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Camping with DD? My first thought was how come all of you didn't go? My second thought was that it is not really my business. The third thought was that I don't mean to pry, but it would tell me more about FF, and the family dynamics to know the answer. IS DS not able to go?
SS is on top of the world. God loves me, and all the rest is just icing on the cake.
I have a hot date tonight, we'll see how it goes. (It's with my wife of 28 years, so I don't expect any surprises, but then, one never REALLY knows.)
My turn for the date. We are going to a really small town about 15 miles away that has an old time diner. Then drive another route home through the hills and maybe park, look at the scenery, and talk about things. Life, us, the kids.....and like that.
Glad you get some time to think. It's good for us. Relax too, get some extra rest. All the best to you.
SS, It is too hot where they are going for DS. He does not tolerate heat. Plus water skiing the like which I am just not interested in. I am hoping this will be big bonding time for daddy and daughter. I am content to be left behind, KWIM?
Oooh, I LIKE your date idea. Add a little necking in the car and ya gotcha a hot one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hey guys. Just checking in, been busy. Miss you all.
SS, have a great date; your wife is one lucky woman!
FF, Have a relaxing weekend, babe.
Kimster, any news on the little ones? I haven't been to I'ville; too easy to get sucked in. I know Wookie's exhausted and working so hard; you all are in my prayers, bay. Happy b-day to DD.
Personally, I absolutely love the thought of SS and his wife-of-28-years skinny dipping.
A lot.
And NOT because I have prurient interest, either. I simply like the thought of two people who are grandparents going out for a completely adolescent and lovely evening of diner, driving, necking, and skinny dipping -- combined with the vast maturity and wisdom that comes of BEING SS and Mrs. SS.
Hey SS, tell your wife that she's a lucky woman -- and that you're a lucky man, okay? Because you both are.
"Isn't it sad how much pain there is around these campfires? The light of the fire itself seems so small sometimes, when all the pain comes up close to it, like the darkness itself is stealing away the light."
...okay, let me take a whack at fixing this.
*2long rolls up a pile of tumbleweeds 12 feet tall, pushes them on2 the fire all at once... ...crowd jumps back in surprise. Fire outshines the sun (magni2de -27) for perhaps 2 minutes...*
At least you didn't throw gas on the fire. Wookie did that once to get a burn going. I've never seen jump so far UP and so far BACKWARD at the same time. He lost 1/2 and eyebrow, too. If you've seen his eyebrows, you'd know that's a lotta hair.
Thanks for the light, 2Long. I needed it today. I rarely make mistakes of trust. Made one recently, and now I'm watching -- and accepting -- the consequences.
Trust is a difficult thing. I'd like more of it. And less pain in the world. A good bright campfire is pretty good, too.
I'm sweating like a banshee. Gross I know, but it has been so dang hot here, it's unreal.
My nephew came over today to help me on my bedroom, and oh my gawd. I thought we would sweat to death.
I have never drank so much water in my life. Then I switched to wine, then of course I started sweating more.
Now I'm drinking this herbal concoction that is supposed to be good for amore' (if you know what I mean) and the sweat pouring off of me is just unreal. Well it's left over from when I was in a relationship, and why throw it out.
My nephew came over today to help me on my bedroom, and oh my gawd. I thought we would sweat to death. . . . Now I'm drinking this herbal concoction that is supposed to be good for amore' (if you know what I mean) and the sweat pouring off of me is just unreal. Well it's left over from when I was in a relationship, and why throw it out.
Well, Weaves, we didn't think you wanted some uh that sookie-sookie with your nephew, now, did we, LOL?
We got to work on our house today too, my 5DDs BR. Had the joy of sanding down the walls (yes, the very ones I applied 40 pounds of joint compound to, each, a few weeks ago, don't remind me), which encompassed me, a bandana over my head, another daintily tied about my nose and mouth, and a pair of safety goggles over my eyes whilst I merrily (not!) hacked away at the 3 inches of misery I had inflicted upon myself. It was a truly pathetic sight to behold.
H, meanwhile, was trying to float the walls, having moderate success due to my zeal with the sander and the flat edge of my tool.
We did okay, made some progress between the three screaming kids, the neighbors' addition to our three screaming kids with THEIR 4 screaming kids (thanks!), the constant chorouses of "We're hungry!", "We're bored!", "My computer's frozen!", "She won't leave me alone!", "Why can't I?" etc, the ringing phone, bearers of the Good News at the front door, the tracking in from outdoors (it's been raining for days til now) of mud, dog poop, water, etc etc etc. What fun!
And now. . . it is time to usher the sweet little angel pies off to slumberland. . .
Man oh man, I'm the only one on this thread with this many kids that are these ages, this spread out, aren't I? Be glad, be very, very glad.
I am now going to get MY well-deserved rest by going to go watch Battlestar Gallactica reruns with my H. Go ahead and laugh. I know I am pathetic! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Kimmy, you are right; darling, you beat me fer sure in quantity.
But in quality -- and by that I mean sheer ADHD capacity -- I win HANDS DOWN.
And this from a woman who once steadfastedly insited that ADHD is a "terribley overdiagnesed disorder" and "my children could never benefit from meds".
HA!!!!!!!
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!! (That's hysterics for all of you who can't quite hear my shrieking -- but I'll bet Kimmy can!)
Yes, please pass me that cupcake -- I will devour it on the way to dragging the littlest monster into her bedroom. She has carpet burns on her a$$ but she chooses to go nekkid anyhow. Ask me why. Go ahead, ask me. BETTER TO FONDLE HERSELF, MY DEAR! AAAAAHHHHHHH! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> She's not even THREE!!!!
I will never make it to my well-deserved break in front of my beloved sci-fi tonight!
Remember the friend I was talking about last week, whose father abandoned him and his sisters when he was 4 yrs old and they were infants?
Tonight we went out. Had a fun time. Afterward, as we were grabbing a bite, he asked me about how he's feeling about a recent breakup, one that was pretty painful for him.
I told him about suffering, how we've all got it coming to us, if we live long enough. I talked about how some religious traditions believe in a place where our souls spend eternity, where we have transcended all suffering. I talked about how in other traditions, they believe that there is no way to appreciate happiness without the constant presence of suffering in one's experience.
I told him I think the best thing is to not be too surprised when we suffer, because we do all have it coming, and for most of us, it's not only when our loved ones live to a ripe old age and die in their time. We usually get it in other, unexpected, less "fair" ways.
He said that he knows that feeling, because he's never had a "real" family.
I said, "But you do. You have a mother who you probably would not be so close with if you and she had not suffered together the way that you did. You have sisters that you feel you need to protect, and the energy you spend protecting them makes you love them more, and it might not be that way if your father were around. Rather than comparing your situation to what might have been if your father hadn't left all of you, rather than comparing it to what you think is ideal, look at all the things that have come after your father's selfish and cruel behavior, that have come to be because you and your family are decent people. You might not love your sisters and your mother the way you do if it hadn't been for this terrible thing your father did to you."
He said, "Dude, you gotta stop; you're gonna make me cry."
I think, for this one time at least, I was totally totally right.
You might not love your sisters and your mother the way you do if it hadn't been for this terrible thing your father did to you."
GC, I just wanted to say how well you took your own experience in life and shared your heart with your friend. God put you both together for a reason. That was beautiful. I am crying too.
SLH, oh my gawd, that did sound bad didn't it, about my nephew. LOL when I read your response.
LOL, Weaves. Well, ya DID say he was a hottie once, didinja? But you also ammended that statement super-fast by saying he was young young young and you were related. LOL.
Now, if you were livin' down south with some of us. . . .ROFLMAO. . .
Shul, I hope you're really okay. Are you single until he decides to come back again?
I saw the movie Heights today to escape the heat. This is an art-house picture. I liked it quite a lot. It's the story of a young couple, a famous actress, an aspiring actor, and a handful of others, interacting over the course of a long day and night in Manhattan.
There's cheatin' in this picture, but the people who do it never have an excuse, and the suffering of the people who love them is not minimized. The cheaters are given a little sympathy while also being portrayed as selfish chickensh*ts.
There are also characters who pass up opportunities to mess around, and times when characters make hard choices out of obligation. Instead of whining about not being able to follow their dreams, they say, "Hey, c'est la vie, I'm bummed out, but I have made promises, and those matter too."
Glenn Close chews the scenery! She's so much fun to watch.
2. Three days of 114 deg weather. Lucky for me the air conditioning works.
3. Gray, you were spot on. SLH IS RIGHT, this is yet another reason girls will like you. One of the things that will happen if God is real (and he is) and if you are trying to find out about him, is that he will help you do things that will bring you the most happiness. Think about this one - it may explain a lot.
4. Just J, I would love to sit and talk to you for a day or so. Will you be out west this year?
5. More lightening caused fires near town. We are not in danger at all, but the smoke smell in the morning reminds me how puny man is ..........still. It doesn't matter though, I am happy anyway.
It has been said that:
Fun is physical Happiness is mental Joy is spiritual.
When a person can blend all three - that is heaven. I believe home can be a heaven on earth. One of the reasons I believe in heaven, is that I have seen it here, and it is good. It is very good. I am working on making it permanant.
SS, Hmmm, are you of the Happiness ia a Choice line of thinkers?
What if you are a total pessimist? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> What then?
Glad you had fun, though I cannot believe your wife wimped out on the SD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Aside from hiding from the heat, what did you do? Did you cook, canoe, explore? I am so jealous. I can't imagine what it's like to go on a date, much less a vacation, with your spouse. Guess that's why we're still kickin around the idea of H's parents moving over here, with us. Babysitters, date time. Something we've never had in 10+ years of kids (too expensive or family lived too far away).
JJ, I've stumbled across a few of your posts by accident lately and might I say, you have a beautiful way of expresing yourself. I love reading them.
GC, I have a few single girlfriends, some of them extremely pretty. Does that mean I would send them your way if they lived in your area? Heck, no. And why? Take a deep breath here, Gray -- I think you deserve better.
I love these girls. We enjoy eachother's company, we laugh together, we've been there for eachother, gone through a heckuva lot. But does that mean I would trust them with a dear male friend's heart? Um, nope, no way.
I'm not saying anything that makes sense, I'm afraid. Let me try again -- I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps the woman you seek is as rare as you are, but not to lose heart, as she is out there. (Maybe. . . wondering where the heck you are! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )
FF, haven't seen you lately and hoping you are well.
weaves, all the nasty after-effects of that concoction wear off okay? No lingering desire to jump on your relatives (LOL)?
Kimster, how was the party? Any cupcakes left?
Where's ole 2Long? We need some tunes!
Oh, on an off-note for those interested in science and engineering, my husband is doing engineering design work on a British Petroleum platform out in the gulf (of Mexico) when Hurricane Dennis tore through there last week. Of course he was evac'ed, but look, just look! at what my husband did! No, really, scroll down and look at the pics to the left -- the platform was listing at 30 or so dergrees a few days ago, and there are even worse photos of it actually taking ON water that H has on his compuer from this weekend -- pretty phenomenal. And the thunder Horse was supposed to be a really big deal in this area. Hubris, huh?
Guess he won't be going back out to reconfigure those programs and sensors anytime soon! Yikes!
The tomatoes are not doing well. While it was cool in early June, they were coming on like weeds, but when the heat came, many of them (including the ones that were just about ready) began to die. The soil where we live was "truck farmed" for years before we bought the land, and it is has all the organisims that attack and kill useful plants. I am slowly improving the soil, but with the tomatoes, the heat, plus the other problems take their toll.
So, we have gotten a few off, but then the plant dies and leaves green ones. There are still some plants that are doing well, but they are not ready yet. By now, I am usually giving they away to the neighbors, but this year we don't even have enough to make BLT's every day yet.........
Zucchini though - you can have some of that because we have LOTS of it. I'll even share what tomatoes there are, but they are not the best.
SLH, We do dates nearly every week. What you can do, and what we did when the kids were small, is make friends in the neighborhood, and trade baby sitting. We watched their kids one week, and they did ours the next. If you don't have neighbours that you can trust to do that, you should move, and find a better place.
His parents can live CLOSE, but not with you, that would work too.
We drove to a small town about 15 miles away, and ate in a small old fashioned diner. On the way we watched a lightening caused fire turn ugly, fanned by the high wind. (We have a 10,000 ft mountain about 15 miles away as the crow flies.) The air tankers were dropping retardant, and I could see the forrest service, and BLM crews leaving the main highway on their way to the fire.
After dinner (prime rib, and it was good too) we drove down a country road and watched the changing scenery - we took some photos and we talked. Their were clouds going over, the ones that follow after a major thunderstorm, and the light patterns were fun to see. This was in an area between the mountains and the desert. Sage brush, cedar trees, red sandstone formations, and mountains in the distance. We stopped and watched the clouds for a time, while we talked about things. We did spend a little time talking about our marriage. Improvements we have made, and things we still need to improve upon. We agreed that being in love is a wonderful thing.
Discussed upcomming vacation (next week) to Yellowstone national Park. Is it Friday yet?
SLH, When you really want somethihng, you make it work. We had no money, no time, and no sitters many of the places we lived - and we had 8 kids. Set a date and work to that deadline. Once you have the date, and the location, you will figure out how to make the other things work.
Live your dreams, it takes the same amound of time that not living them takes, but it is much more rewarding.
SS, Hmmm, are you of the Happiness ia a Choice line of thinkers?
What if you are a total pessimist? What then?
That would be my dear hubby. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> We could get into a loooong discussion on this subject <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Quote
FF, haven't seen you lately and hoping you are well.
I am here, SLH and fine thanks for asking. I spent a lot of time alone with DS this weekend. H and DD went camping as I said before. First day was hard, I was lonely for conversation and then suddenly it was OK to be quiet. I enjoyed reading for pleasure. I enjoyed not cooking for everyone, I enjoyed not rushing around to have things clean before H came home from work. DS and I enjoyed some naps and stuff together. I also spent far too much time on the two threads about patterns and power. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Oh lordy me too! Gray you could find a girl here. The bars are just loaded with them. In fact one time a tourist told me, "if you can't get laid in ________, you can't get laid anywhere".
Oh that's right, you're looking for a nice girl. Sorry, can't help ya.
SS,
Glad you had a good time on your date.
SLH, I wouldn't fix Gray up with any of my friends either.
Faith, Hi! You know, I haven't been spending hardly any time here either. And none at work (yeah), so my company thanks me, for finally putting in a decent days work.
Going to go work out now...got a huge fan in front of my machine, so hopefully won't pass out from the heat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SS, you knew exactly what I wanted, and you described it all to me, beautifully. Thank you.
I do expect to see pictures, though. Do you have a web or photo page, hmmmmm, LOL?
Gc, nope. Uh-uh. None uh dem good enuff fer you. SS knows what I mean.
Or I could look up some hokey quote about the purest of hearts from some movie. . .
Hey, until I can get more room for our home web pages, wanna see some pics of my girlies? Very basic photos and Yahoo, so be patient with the pages getting overloaded, sil vous plait. . .
Photos ? I plan to get space on a server soon to post some photos for other things, I can probably do a link to a few photos of trips, and dates.
SLH, really........set a date, discuss it with tiger. Pick a place that both of you want to see. Some of the trips we did were just camping trips, because we had no money. Once you have the date, and the place, all the other stuff start to work it self out.
"Tiger, is this weekend, or this other weekend (SLH points to two different dates in Sept) best for going on our 2nd honeymoon trip?"
It can be fun, I promise.
Hi Weaver, I've been thinking about you some more, you are an interresting person, in many ways a lot like me. I keep wondering when you will finally feel free. It will be good for you.
Faithful, did the happy campers come back safely? Are you back into the same old thing, or is it fresh and exciting having him home?
Graycloud, Are we doing a wood cutting saturday any time soon? I can't imagine this little wood pile will last all winter. There are some thinning projects out on the north Kiabab, and I just got a new chain for my chain saw. I can cut wood and do haricuts, all in the same trip. (the new chain does a lot better job on hair)
Dedicating this song to Mr. and Mrs. Still Seeking -
And Mrs S., in your case the "band" would be your eight kids. LOL
Tiny Dancer
Music by Elton John Lyrics by Bernie Taupin Available on the album Madman Across The Water
Blue jean baby, L.A. lady, seamstress for the band Pretty eyed, pirate smile, you'll marry a music man Ballerina, you must have seen her dancing in the sand And now she's in me, always with me, tiny dancer in my hand
Jesus freaks out in the street Handing tickets out for God Turning back she just laughs The boulevard is not that bad
Piano man he makes his stand In the auditorium Looking on she sings the songs The words she knows, the tune she hums
But oh how it feels so real Lying here with no one near Only you and you can't hear me When I say softly, slowly
Hold me closer tiny dancer Count the headlights on the highway Lay me down in sheets of linen you had a busy day today
Blue jean baby, L.A. lady, seamstress for the band Pretty eyed, pirate smile, you'll marry a music man Ballerina, you must have seen her dancing in the sand And now she's in me, always with me, tiny dancer in my hand
"Maximum distance from the sun: 94 million 537 thousand miles. Minimum distance from the sun: 91 million 377 thousand miles. Mean distance from the sun: 92 million 957 thousand and 200 miles. Mean Orbital velocity: 66000 miles per hour. Orbital eccentricity: 0.017. Obliquity of the ecliptic: 23 degrees 27 minutes 8.26 seconds. Length of the tropical year: equinox to equinox, 365.24 days. Length of the sidereal year: fixed star to fixed star, 365.26 days. Length of the mean solar day: 24 hours 3 minutes and 56.5555 seconds of mean solar time. Length of the mean sidereal day: 23 hours 56 minutes and 4.091 seconds of mean sederial time. Mass: 6600 million million million tons. Equatorial diameter: 7927 miles. Polar diameter: 7900 miles. Oblateness: 1/298th Density: 5.41 Mean surface gravitational acceleration of the rotating earth: 32.174 feet per second per second. Escape velocity: 7 miles per second.
SLH, I LOVE those baby girls! I miss mine so much.
Okay Gray, this song I am dedicating to you buddy -
JOSH GROBAN LYRICS
"Vincent (Starry, Starry Night)"
Starry, starry night Paint your palette blue and grey Look out on a summer's day With eyes that know the darkness in my soul Shadows on the hills Sketch the trees and daffodils Catch the breeze and the winter chills In colours on the snowy linen land
Now I understand What you tried to say to me And how you suffered for your sanity And how you tried to set them free They would not listen They did not know how Perhaps they'll listen now
Starry, starry night Flaming flowers that brightly blaze Swirling clouds and violet haze Reflect in Vincent's eyes of china blue Colours changing hue Morning fields of amber grain Weathered faces lined in pain Are soothed beneath the artists' loving hand
Now I understand What you tried to say to me And how you suffered for your sanity And how you tried to set them free They would not listen They did not know how Perhaps they'll listen now
For they could not love you But still your love was true And when no hope was left inside On that starry, starry night You took your life as lovers often do But I could have told you Vincent This world was never meant for one as beautiful as you
Like the strangers that you've met The ragged men in ragged clothes The silver thorn of bloody rose Lie crushed and broken on the virgin snow
Now I think I know What you tried to say to me And how you suffered for your sanity And how you tried to set them free They would not listen They're not listening still Perhaps they never will...
Hey where's AD been? Hope he is well, and getting LOTS of work done at work.
Okay, I'm really out of here now. I have laundry to do, and eight people to interview tomorrow, fun fun. My big boss is coming up to do the interviews because he doesn't trust my mouth. I might ask them if they plan on getting pregnant in the near future or something. BIG no no.
Keep the flame burning.
And Shul, I really am thinking of you, and hoping you are okay.
I got this other song that I need to dedicate to 2long. And I know your wifes name probably isn't Suzanne 2long, but this song 'minds me of the poet in you.
Lyrics for: Suzanne
Leonard Cohen - Suzanne Lyrics Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river You can hear the boats go by You can spend the night beside her And you know that she's half crazy But that's why you want to be there And she feeds you tea and oranges That come all the way from China And just when you mean to tell her That you have no love to give her Then she gets you on her wavelength And she lets the river answer That you've always been her lover And you want to travel with her And you want to travel blind And you know that she will trust you For you've touched her perfect body with your mind. And Jesus was a sailor When he walked upon the water And he spent a long time watching From his lonely wooden tower And when he knew for certain Only drowning men could see him He said "All men will be sailors then Until the sea shall free them" But he himself was broken Long before the sky would open Forsaken, almost human He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone And you want to travel with him And you want to travel blind And you think maybe you'll trust him For he's touched your perfect body with his mind. Now Suzanne takes your hand And she leads you to the river She is wearing rags and feathers From Salvation Army counters And the sun pours down like honey On our lady of the harbour And she shows you where to look Among the garbage and the flowers There are heroes in the seaweed There are children in the morning They are leaning out for love And they will lean that way forever While Suzanne holds the mirror And you want to travel with her And you want to travel blind And you know that you can trust her For she's touched your perfect body with her mind.
And finally, this one is for Kimmy, because she is one of the kindest, most generous, and sweetest women I have ever had the pleasure of knowing (and this song 'minds me of you Kimmy) -
Lyrics for: He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother
HE AIN'T HEAVY HE'S MY BROTHER
The road is long with a many a winding turns that leads us to who knows where, who knows where. But I'm strong, strong enough to carry him. He ain't heavy, he's my brother.
So on we go. His welfare is of my concern. No burden is he to bear, we'll get there. For I know he would not encumber me. He ain't heavy, he's my brother.
If I'm laden at all, I'm laden with sadness that everyone's heart isn't filled with the gladness of love for one another.
It's a long, long road from which there is no return. While we're on the way to there, why not share? And the load doesn't weigh me down at all. He ain't heavy, he's my brother.
He's my brother. He ain't heavy, he's my brother...
I sing Suzanne passably well. That was a song frequently heard at my house when I was growing up.
I grew up in a house where people broke into song just because their hearts told them to.
Suzanne is one of my favorites....off of Judy Collins favorite hits album (yeah...those round black thingys made out of vinyl...). It's after Fairwell to Tairwathe on that round.
I used 2 sing that song and play the guit-fiddle when I was but a child. No, my W's not named Suzanne.
I like Leonard Cohen stuff. Found this one a while back. it's funny, though. I love the lyrics, but didn't like the song when I heard it:
Leonard Cohen, "Humbled in Love"
"Do you remember all of those pledges That we pledged in the passionate night Ah they're soiled now, they're torn at the edges Like moths on a still yellow light No penance serves to renew them No massive transfusions of trust Why not even revenge can undo them So twisted these vows and so crushed
And you say you've been humbled in love Cut down in your love Forced to kneel in the mud next to me Ah but why so bitterly turn from the one Who kneels there as deeply as thee
Children have taken these pledges They have ferried them out of the past Oh beyond all the graves and the hedges Where love must go hiding at last And here where there is no description Oh here in the moment at hand No sinner need rise up forgiven No victim need limp to the stand
And you say you've been humbled in love...
And look dear heart, look at the virgin how she welcomes him into her gown Yes, and mark how the stranger's cold armour Dissolves like a star falling down Why trade this vision for desire When you may have them both You will never see a man this naked I will never hold a woman this close
Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin Dance me through the panic 'til I'm gathered safely in Lift me like an olive branch and be my homeward dove Dance me to the end of love Dance me to the end of love Oh let me see your beauty when the witnesses are gone Let me feel you moving like they do in Babylon Show me slowly what I only know the limits of Dance me to the end of love Dance me to the end of love
Dance me to the wedding now, dance me on and on Dance me very tenderly and dance me very long We're both of us beneath our love, we're both of us above Dance me to the end of love Dance me to the end of love
Dance me to the children who are asking to be born Dance me through the curtains that our kisses have outworn Raise a tent of shelter now, though every thread is torn Dance me to the end of love
Dance me to your beauty with a burning violin Dance me through the panic till I'm gathered safely in Touch me with your naked hand or touch me with your glove Dance me to the end of love Dance me to the end of love Dance me to the end of love
Okay. I'm weeping. Why does the love of chidren not your own make you ache so? I WANT them to me mine.
In a JUST world DNA would come back blood of my body. It would.
Okay. I'm weeping. Why does the love of chidren not your own make you ache so? I WANT them to me mine.
In a JUST world DNA would come back blood of my body. It would.
I thought you guys were suing for custody? I would bet that before too long they will be back with you. Doesn't sound like she will hang on to them for too much longer. On a downward spiral she is.
Kimster, I wish I knew what to say, but I don't beyond I am so sorry. I wish I could be there with you to hold you and cry with you, dearest.
I do agree that the Donor doesn't have it in her to hang on to those babies much longer than she has to. Are you & Wookie looking into PIs and such for evidence to use against her if necessary?
Everybody out there knows those darlings would be better with you guys. I just wish the proper authorities would agree.
Faithful, did the happy campers come back safely? Are you back into the same old thing, or is it fresh and exciting having him home?
SS, yes they came back safe and dirty, LOL My H was grumpy from being tired. Just waiting patiently he seems withdrawn, could just be from being tired.
I am so glad you and Mrs. SS had a good date. You two have something really beautiful going, I see it in your posts.
They are GOOD kids. All babies are good kids. I worry for them almost more than the ones I birthed, just because they deserve what I could give them but they were denied.
If it's any consolation...I put no money on any permanancy anymore. My condolence is that he cannot do this. He does love those babies at least as much as I do. I've seen it. They have him wrapped around their little fingers (and they are very cutetly petite teeny digits).
I live by, "Resistance is futile," which, I think, was written by irrestable infants.
I think I'm having a get-together with car4love. I'm oddly freaked about it. It creates a proximity to the APs in a way, and that makes the encounter feel perilous.
For a long time, we talked or emailed on a daily basis. In a strange way, she gave me a connection to my wife, I suppose because we talked about the APs' shenanigans.
Now, I sense the same connection, and I don't want it. But it's not fair for me to associate car4love so fully with the horrors of the last year, so probably getting over my hesitation is a good idea.
I just hope that the things I hear don't make me too depressed. I expect we'll keep talk of the APs to a minimum.
I'm so glad it was a good move. I had no idea that you had never really had the opportunity to share with her how you felt.
Everyone needs that.
I was wondering, G, isn't your anniversary coming up? (I remember because I think yours was near mine) I don't mean to broadside you by mentioning it, but I did want you to be prepared. What will you do, that day? Make plans now, hun, so you won't be assaulted with depression or feelings of being overwhelmed on the day of. Maybe a nice dinner with good friends, or an evening of playing music with your band, anything but sitting at home alone, unless you've got some issues to work thru that can best be tackled in the dark, by yourself.
And even then, I would hope you would keep us updated.
Not of any direct answer to your problems, but of your laughter, and your happiness and your babies. I cannot believe that this situation is yet finished.
SLH, really........set a date, discuss it with tiger. Pick a place that both of you want to see. Some of the trips we did were just camping trips, because we had no money. Once you have the date, and the place, all the other stuff start to work it self out.
"Tiger, is this weekend, or this other weekend (SLH points to two different dates in Sept) best for going on our 2nd honeymoon trip?"
It can be fun, I promise.
Ready for some whining, SS? If not, I promise not to be upset. I PROMISE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
2nd Honeymoon Trip? ROFLOL. We never even had a FIRST Honeymoon Trip! No wonder I am so starved for some time for my H, and am willing to move his parents in with us to get it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
And for those crazy folk who will say, Why on earth did slh have so many children if she couldn't handle them? I say to you, well, I DO love my kiddos, first of all, but let's also say. . . uhmmm. . . if you wave the bedsheets around me I get preggers, 'kay? Which is why, as my DD10 now says, "My Daddy is fixed." LOL. NOTHING else works, we've tried it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Let me tell you what happened last year, SS. I knew our 10 year anniversary was coming up, and since we had never really had a first honeymoon, I wanted to do something special. I saved up enough money doing odds and ends for a down payment on an all-inclusive resort and scheduled family in another state to watch our kiddos for that particular week (8 months later). I lost those last few lingering pounds, went to the gym every day, and continued to pay on the resort little-by-little for the next 8 months. We even made an appt with a minister to renew our vows on the beach -- my dream, as we had previously been married by a JOP. Ti knew about it all and was excited (so he said).
But when push came to shove, the month before, Ti bailed. No time, not enough money to finish paying (it turned out he hadn't bothered paying anything at all, as I thought he had), etc. Luckily we were able to get some of our money back, but not all. And I fell into a depression where even when I tried to make things nice for us, I still couldn't.
I think that's when I started losing it as the "perfect" wife, not trying anymore, saying "why the heck bother?", and began doing more things with friends. When I felt, however, that many of my needs were being met *there*, by *them* (and some of them are male, yes) is when I high-tailed it to MB. I'd been a fan of Harley's books for years but there had never been a forum on his site when I had checked before -- what a blessing!
In the end, I guess it wasn't meant to be, anyway. The family that was supposed to watch the kiddos that week came down reeeealllly sick, Ti was shipped off to Huntsville, Ala for NASA junk (vacation? what vacation?) and the resort suffered a series of Hurricane attacks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Soooooo. . . in the event you have no family within 300 miles, no neighbors that you'd really want to leave your 3, 5 and 10 year olds with, no friendly (but suicidal) fellow church friends, and no $ for babysitters, would dragging them along on a camping trip to the beach be considered a date?
SS, yes exactly I am dealing with HUGE doubts and I don't know if they are my imagination or real, KWIM?
Tonight is our first twice a week 30 minute "work on our M" session. I wanted to either pull out the ENQ or the 4 rules of recovery. Which do you think would be best?
Make sure you both understand and agree on the four rules. All the other stuff will come naturally in time, but there needs to be agreement on the rules or the other stuff won't work.
I am not sure how your H does things, and how willing he is to discuss his feelings. It may not hurt to let him read it, and then probe for his feelings. You want to see the light in his eyes that shows he wants it like you want it. If you don't get that, see if you can figure out what is going on behind those eyes of his. Don't confront, or doubt, but probe gently.
You still have time. It was about two years for us to really be doing well after we read this stuff, and started doing it.
You didn't answer the question about dates. Should I leave it alone, or ask you again? Hmmm, SS ponders if this is just an oversight, or if it means something.
SS is not that good, so you tell me. I'll take your word on it.
ENQ can be done as home work for the next sesson. Does he do homework well?
No does not do homework well, but I will ask. I like the idea of letting him read the 4 rules and watch for his reaction in his eyes. Dates..well I think I avoided because we just rarely get them anymore. DS is hard to take care of and thus hard to get sitters for. On top of that H has not been enthusiastic about dates in the past...of course he was in A's then. I will try again. Honestly I have asking to get away for a few days alone for the past year. It was always "no". I mentioned it last week and he said "OK" so maybe we are making slow progress. I will ask him to pick a place and make the arrangements as you counseled SLH to do.
I don't know your H as well as I do SLH's H. You think about it, and do what you think would work best in your case.
Dates hold the love together. No dates = loss of love.
We have made good friends all the places we have lived - and we moved a lot the first 14 years we were married. Trading baby sitting is good when you have close friends, but you can drive a long ways and let family do it too, if they are willing. IT'S IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO PUT SOMEONE OUT A LITTLE BIT TO MAKE IT WORK, DON'T BE AFRAID TO ASK.
I was one of those that didn't think it would work for quite a while. Now I can't believe I was so stupid.
SLH, Now I feel owe you an apology. You did it, and it didn't work at all.
So now you can quit.......right?
Except that you know I would never suggest that, and I know you wouldn't do it even if I did suggest it.
So, are you afraid now?
I would think that after the talk you had with tiger he would be much more likely to go pay out this time, and to avoid scheduling something else on top of it. 10 years is a milestone, but then so is 11. I know it's coming up, but I don't know exactly when.
Ready for some whining, SS? If not, I promise not to be upset. I PROMISE! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
2nd Honeymoon Trip? ROFLOL. We never even had a FIRST Honeymoon Trip! No wonder I am so starved for some time for my H, and am willing to move his parents in with us to get it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
We spent our first honeymoon in a mountain cabin - in the winter. The water was turned off, so for some things we had to go outside to the old style..... em....... well, you know. W was not impressed, but then, both of us had spent our money getting ready to be married. Paying off bills and cars, doing first and last months rent, deposits, etc, so this one was very low budget.
At least we got one. It was much better than NOTHING.
As far as you being a whiner - you are not. This is serious stuff, and I am glad to get more informaton. It tells me a great deal about how things really were/are. ( I can't believe she thinks this is whining, sometimes she surpprises me.)
And for those crazy folk who will say, Why on earth did slh have so many children if she couldn't handle them? I say to you, well, I DO love my kiddos, first of all, but let's also say. . . uhmmm. . . if you wave the bedsheets around me I get preggers, 'kay? Which is why, as my DD10 now says, "My Daddy is fixed." LOL. NOTHING else works, we've tried it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
(Warning to Graycloud, you may want to skip this part, it will bring memories that you may want to stay away from.)
We love our children too, and they are a wonderful part of our life, but the main reason I got married to spend time with HER. Our children will grow up, and marry (5 out of 8 are married now) and they will repeat the cycle, but I cherish the time I spend with my W. I love to see her face as she sleeps. I love the sound of her voice, I love her laugh, the smell of her hair. When we are alone for a few days, all the good memories flood back for both of us, all the reasons we fell in love, and married in the first place.
When you are at home, the phone always rings, the kids have demands, the dog barfs on the carpet....and all that stuff that you know as well as I do. This is where I hate cell phones, and pagers - to many people think then need to answer while they are on dates, and vacations. I don't. Just how important is a marriage anyway?
Anyway, yes, we love our kids too, but they are a part of marriage, they are not the whole sum of our marriage. Dr Harley is not making the 15 hours up. Think about that for a little while. Many or most people say they can't do that many hours. We don't do 15 but we do 7 or 8, and it is so much better than 15 minutes or a half hour.
I can say for sure that a substantial amound of time is needed, and you can't do "quality time" instead, it takes quantity.
Story of failed trip last year, that almost made SS cry.
SLH, this is not a small thing. If he doesn't realize it, then another talk should be scheduled. Emotionally this was huge for you, and he needs to know what he did, so he won't ever do it again. If you don't think you can get it across, to him, I'll give you my phone number, and you can have him call me when he has about an hour for me to chew him out. Just make sure he won't hang up.
Dreams (like this) are not something that can be pushed aside for another day of work. Covey in "7 Habits" remarks that "no one on their death bed ever wishes they would have spent more time at the office."
I read it again, and I don't know how to express my feelings. All those preprations you worked so hard on, all that work, and it fell through. If the hurricanes had done it, but you knew Ti was in with all his heart, you would have been happy anyway, but it didn't go that way. He needs to know your feelings, I can't stress that enough.
And...........please don't say it's not that big of a deal, I know it is. But then, you wouldn't say that, would you.
And I fell into a depression where even when I tried to make things nice for us, I still couldn't.
I think that's when I started losing it as the "perfect" wife, not trying anymore, saying "why the heck bother?", and began doing more things with friends. When I felt, however, that many of my needs were being met [color:"blue"]*there*,[/color] by [color:"blue"]*them*[/color] (and some of them are male, yes) is when I high-tailed it to MB. I'd been a fan of Harley's books for years but there had never been a forum on his site when I had checked before -- what a blessing!
If you have to, get his parents to drive to you, and stay, or, if you have to, drive the kids to his brothers house, and fly or drive from there.
I think what I would do, is tell Ti what you want to do, and make sure you explain how important it is to you. Then ask his help in making it work. He is an excellant problem solver, he will make sure it happens. If he applies his ability to this one, it's sure to work.
And just to make sure you get me - what I mean is to go over all the things that went wrong laqst time, and challange him to help you make sure this time you have them covered. It might include: Resorts where they don't get hurricanes. Back up baby sitters Money agreed upon, and raised way in advance.
You would know better than I would - heck you could even drive to his brothers, dump the kids, and stay in a cheap motel for the weekend. You might be so busy you didn't know it was cheap. Just find a way to start, you can work up from there.
Soooooo. . . in the event you have no family within 300 miles, no neighbors that you'd really want to leave your 3, 5 and 10 year olds with, no friendly (but suicidal) fellow church friends, and no $ for babysitters, would dragging them along on a camping trip to the beach be considered a date?
Did [color:"blue"]you [/color] bring [color:"blue"]your[/color] kiddos?
Actually, there have been a few times when the sitters fell through, and we took the kids. However, the law of averages makes sure we get some time alone. We try to do two trips a year. Most are Fri, Sat, Sunday trips. A few times we have done 8 day trips, and they are sooooo sweet. We have camped on probably 70% of them, sometimes we mix it with motels, so we can get showers every other day.
Family vacations are important too. Those girls need memories of time spent with their father. They need it every year. Hmmm, SS doesn't want to be known as the preacher, so I better go on.
No, I know it won't be easy. Another thing is that YOU tried once, and you invested a lot into doing it. The sting is still there. However, it's worth it. I think I would make it longer than a weekend, you won't want to go home once you get started.
Ah, romance, whither hast thou gone?
LOL.
These kinds of LOL's hurt, don't they. Your question is real, and it's important.
I admit I am a fixer too. Once I realized what it would do for us, I bent all my will to make it work. I am thinking Ti will do the same for you - after all, you are the girl of his dreams. He would do well to keep the dreams alive.
Is this helping? Or just adding to the depression?
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> well...I would prefer option two but have to settle for option one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> This is (I hope) the beginning of spending more time together. I read a great post by Ktulu on the R board which I am trying to read whenever I remember. I carry a copy of it in my purse. All of this is helping. Thank you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have a music publishing company. It used to be named after the sparrow.
For obvious reasons, I needed to give my company a new name. The name I chose is in the liner notes of my band's CD, which is supposed to come out on July 30.
For several days, the CD manufacturer has been sitting there with our stuff, ready to start printing, but there's been a problem.
I didn't know if I'd be able to legally use the new name I wanted to give my company.
The music publishers' society I belong to had to do a big, important search to make sure the name I wanted wasn't already being used. Ordinarily this takes a few days. And there are millions of music publishers. Finding a new name that isn't already taken is a little like trying to get "bob@aol.com" for an email.
The CD manufacturer called yesterday and said if they didn't get the go-ahead to start printing our CDs by 3:00 today, the discs would not be ready in time for release on the 30th.
This morning I called my publishing society. Was there any way this search could be sped up? The woman on the phone was very nice. She said she'd put a rush on it, but it probably wouldn't get sorted out until tomorrow at the soonest.
At 3:01, the woman from the society called to tell me it was okay for me to use the new name. One minute past the manufacturer's deadline.
But we made the deadline, because this morning, after calling the publishers' society, I decided to risk it and gave the go-ahead for the manufacturer to get started.
I don't know what the moral is. I made a tricky decision and took a risk, and it worked out.
Okay, update on flower guy----he came to my office and asked me out today. He works in conjunction with our company but in a different org. He said I looked so sad last week when he saw me, he just couldn't stand it so sent me flowers. He said I was so beautiful and didn't understand what could have made me so sad. Sheesh I didn't even know it showed.
Anyway I told him I was just getting out of a LTR and he said so was he. I said I would be interested in going out and talking or dinner, something like that. He asked if he could call and I said sure.
Now this is the clicker - after that convo with him I sunk to such depths of sadness. I feel like I'm dying now. I just can't imagine going out with anyone but my ex. The thought just makes me so unbelievably sad. And I started getting awful panic attacks for the rest of the afternoon, during our interviews.
I don't want to go out with anyone. I miss my ex so much, especially after this guy asked me out. It's been six weeks now since he ended it and I just can't believe he doesn't miss me, or hasn't called. I just can't believe it. I know he loved me, and this all just makes no sense to me.
I think I'm losing it again. Where's the tear icon on here anyway.
Brutal honesty time and although I am being very strong and growing as a person I think, I love my ex. Like SS for his wife, I love his face, his hands, his smile, his laugh and the way he talked to me when I am down, or had a problem with Paige.
To everyone- you give me hope that life does get better when you stick to your commitment of marriage.
Gray you go guy! Good job today.
Everyone thinks I am nuts I know, but I just can't help the way I feel. And somedays I actually don't feel too bad, almost happy really.
Thank you faith. I know no one knows what to say to me. I mean what is there to say about a relationship which ended on an answering machine after 4 1/2 years and planning a life together.
In the past when I ended it with someone, I always talked to them as much as they needed afterwards. I can't imagine doing what he did.
Oh well, never mind. Nobody can possibly know the answers.
Weaver, Some things it's hard to know how to say, or even if they should be said, but here goes.
Remember that God has rules. They are not for him, but to protect us. The better we are at living HIS way, the more protection we have from heartache, and the more help he can give us.
I don't know the extent of your relationship with Dan, but if you were outside of the bounds God sets, then I wonder why you would be angry with God for the pain you have. Remember again, his rules are a protection for us. A safety net.
I can't feel the depth of your pain, I can't say "I know how you feel." All the same, I feel for you, and I wish it were otherwise.
I do know that the more closely we live Gods laws, the easier it is to find that elusive joy we all seek.
Not sure why I am saying this now, it doesn't make sense to me. I would rather be sending you a song or poem. It's just been on my mind. I hope I don't add to the hurt.
I'm sitting here for a while wanting to say something that will help, but I doubt I have any magic words.
I don't know the extent of your relationship with Dan, but if you were outside of the bounds God sets, then I wonder why you would be angry with God for the pain you have. Remember again, his rules are a protection for us. A safety net.
I was not living outside of the bounds God set. I was very much committed for the rest of my life. I was very much married in every sense of the word, I was faithful and true. I was also faithful to God. When I found out Dan was still married I ended it & told him to go back with his wife. He came back three or four months later divorced.
In the bible there is no legal ceremony for marriage SS. The act of SF bound a man to a woman for life in the bible, only adultry could sever that bind. I lived with him yes, but I accept no blame for living in sin, as I was not. My heart, my love and my intent were true.
And if what you are saying is true, then what about the people who married before they lived together, and still they are broken and alone? Should they feel anger?
Anyway I am not angy with God anymore, I just wonder where he has been for me in my life.
I am more angry at the people who would minimize my relationship and love, and the validity of it.
My feeling is that the Jewish people had a very formal ceremony. I suppose I would disagree with you about SF being the binding tie.
Can we agree to disagree about that part?
I do agree that you were committed. I know it broke your heart.
I also agree that many that married first are now living as if they were single, with little hope that their marriages will surrive. I realize it is no sure thing.
I know that when I do as God asks me to, I get more help. I was trying to encourage you in that direction, but I am not trying to be your judge.
I can't be Dan's judge either, it's not my place, but I do feel it is not right to keep the kind of secrets he kept from you.
Can we start over?
Why were you angry, and what made the difference that you are not angry now?
I think your relationship with Dan, like the A’s exposed on this forum, started out in lies and deceit. And, JMO, as with the average A it had only a 3% chance of long term success because of the way it started. It does not matter that you feel guilty for rejecting his lies and maybe, or maybe not, made it hard on him. He lied big time! It affected you! You deserved, and you knew this, someone who did not lie to you just to get his way with you.
I suspect your R with Dan would have burned out pretty much the same, because of his issues, even if you were a living saint.
I don’t know this for sure, but I have been told that nowhere in the Bible is it promised we will be happy in this life. Nowhere.
We are promised joy, however, if we follow God’s purpose for us.
Have you read The Purpose Driven Life? If not, I recommend it. Not all your questions will be answered by reading this book. They can't be, even the author cautions against this. But it is a good starting perspective on what your life is supposed to be about.
I don't, and never did blame you for his marriage problems.
Please forgive me if I added to your pain. I never intended to do that. Please don't feel you have to defend your feelings to me. I accept you, and I love you. (the proper MB kind of course, sometimes I hate political correctness.)
I do think you could have been good for him.
I still also feel unless he changes a lot, he would not be good for you. This, from a distance, with few facts. It's just a feeling I have, and probably because he hurt you so badly, and my wish is for that not to happen to you again.
I'd like to give you a reason to smile tonight. Will this work for you?
Hey. I grew up maybe 75 miles as the crow flys from Yellostone NP. Attended undergrad maybe 50 mi away. Used to ride my Motor Cycle (a different kind of MC) all over the park in the summers - back when they didn't care so much if you just pulled off the road any old place to camp. (Remind me to tell you sometime about hot-potting. Just not on MB.)
My family is still mostly all back there. We just got back from two weeks there and Glacier NP area.
I read the first seven chapters of "the purpose driven life" because that is what is available on the website. A girlfriend was reading it and asked me to read along with her.
And no we were never promised happiness, although we were promised that if we ask, we shall receive.
Aph, thank you for saying that no matter how good I was, he still would have left because they are his issues.
Just having a bad day, that's all. I really know all this stuff, but as you know sometimes we forget and all those regrets come back full force.
SS,
Thanks, and yes I know you are not judgemental in the slightest, and want only the best for everyone.
"And no, we were never promised happiness, although we were promised that if we ask, we shall receive."
You, Weaver, are promissed you personally will receive whatever you ask for in Jesus' name.
I have been taught this means you will receive all good things you need to fulfill your purpose, to find and follow God. Not necessarily any old bad for you thing you want.
Would you give your five year old a sharp knife to play with no matter how much she pleaded, reasoned or otherwise begged? A teenager carte blanche to stay out all night and party?
About 20 years ago, while I was single, I became involved with a man who was separated from his wife.
I had misgivings about it, but his marriage was over, and I was crazy about him.
Various people told me that: it was wrong/ that it was wrong but if he divorced his wife and we got married it would be okay/ that so long as we loved each other God approved etc...
It was a close call, but in the end I broke it off simply to have peace of mind.
He reconciled with his wife shortly after.
The point of this is that in hindsight, knowing the woman I have become, and seeing him from a distance of 20 years. I am sooooo thankful that I did not marry him. I know now that it would have been a terrible mistake, and that we would have been miserable. (More miserable even than this marriage if that were possible..)
I don't know if my husband is the 'one' God meant for me, (or if there is such a thing), perhaps not...but I feel like I avoided a life time of regret by the skin of my teeth.
Maybe God has someone better for you, and you are the one getting in your own way...
Weaver... do you feel obligated to the flower man? That's okay, if you do. But if he's as compassionate as the anonymous flowers (which even now I don't get) suggest, he will be understanding if you want to back out.
SS, about your warning to me in your post to SLH... thanks for getting it.
Okay, our drummer didn't show tonight, and the other two were not into playing music. We had a beer or two and chatted on the porch. My friend, our singer, whose attitude toward me & my troubles has for a long time been, move on, to hell with her, etc., surprised me. I told her I saw my doc and went back on ADs. She said she's glad, that she had seen that I was not doing so great. I asked why didn't you say something, and she said I'd have disagreed. Maybe so. I fight a little too hard sometimes. Lots of the time. I make people work before I'll agree with them. People without the inclination for a debate don't bother. This is often a bad feature of my personality.
SS, not much to tell about last night except it did not go well. He has been so mean to me the past couple days and I would have been better off canceling. I got an earful of websites, book, counselors cannot fix everything. blah, blah, blah He did read it though, I guess that is a start. Wanted to know why I think the infidelity is the only thing to work on. I told it is not but we have to deal with it first!
I admit to LBing a few times last night. His bad behavior toward me really triggered some bad stuff in me. I have got to get that under control.
Anyway, we still have tenative plans for lunch but I leave it in his hands.
I left him this morning with I am not the same person I was 1 or two years ago. I will no longer tolerate being treated badly and if he sees this a "cycle" of his then he needs to stop the cycle.
Weaver, hon, how are you today? If all else fails, remind yourself that you're still one hot, sexy, desirable woman and that if some guy is just dropping flowers off because you look down, imagine all the others that aren't brave enough to undertake similar actions! No, they're not Dan, but YOU ARE WORTHY, bay! We love you.
Anyone heard from Kimmy? Is she doing okay, and holed up with the new HP book?
FF, good luck at lunch today. Big hugs! I hope he is a bit nicer and you two can enjoy eachother's company. How much of last night was his fatigue and how much was just him being, well, him?
GC, your post about your singer's comments was valid. I don't think you are trying to be difficult as much as perhaps wanting to explore all of the possibilities to fully understand why things are before committing to them, kwim? "Making people work for them" & "fighting a little too hard sometimes" is just your way, just don't come on so strong, and you can get the same answers.
SS, just wanted to let you know I am not ignoring you. (REAL LOL this time, not a bitter one) I had finished this long response to you last night when Ti got home from work and plugged in his Tablet PC to transfer data from it to his home PC (ggggrrrrr . . . ask me why he didn't use his jazz drive?). At that point, the circuits became overloaded and we blew a fuse. . . crazy old wiring. . . crazy old house. Because all of our 'puters are networked and connected and all plugged in togather, i lost my entire response. All of it. Waaaaaaa.
Boy was I mad.
I guess I am going to have to start opening a document every time I post anything longer than a paragraph. Uh, like now?
I promise to respond in-depth soon. Suffice to say your compassion and understanding brought tears to my eyes. You understood. You knew. All of the hours I spent at the gym to please him, the funny and suggestively romantic web sites I created with photos of the resort and cute little maps detailing this and that, the love letters, the poetry, the beautiful gown I had bought for our ROVs. . . you knew. It wasn't just "a vacation". It was the only time we would have been able to be together all summer, as he had been out of town for almost 2 months. It was supposed to be so much more.
And you owe me no apology, SS. You were merely not in possession of all the facts. If anything, I owe you a sincere, heart-felt thank you, for all of the time and energy and compassion you consistently extend to myself and others, each time you open a post and read it with such careful reflection. The tender responses you post tell of much thoughtfulness and concern for the person to whom you are answering.
FF, good luck at lunch today. Big hugs! I hope he is a bit nicer and you two can enjoy eachother's company. How much of last night was his fatigue and how much was just him being, well, him?
Well, he just called to ask if we can do lunch tomorrow as today has been shot. In his job he never knows where he'll be and if his appointments run late. I was nice and understanding. Was it fatigue? Possibly, but SLH no more excuses for outrageous behavior. Yes, I hurt him...but he TORTURED and PUNISHED me for ending his first A for two years. I cannot go back to accepting that behavior. Yes, I still lb and I am working on it. I am NOT however the same person I was even a year ago. We spent a year in MC trying to break old habits and cycles, no more.
Yes, I still lb and I am working on it. I am NOT however the same person I was even a year ago. We spent a year in MC trying to break old habits and cycles, no more.
GOOD FOR YOU, FF!!!!!!
I'm sorry if it sounded like I was making excuses for him -- I wasn't. I just know it can be hard just being a PARENT sometimes, you know? You should have seen me last night -- LBs and all. I had to leave the house to get a hold of myself. Yes, even going out in 100 degree heat and cutting the muddy yard was more fun than being around my kiddos one more minute. My poor H.
I came back refreshed, believe that? After mowing our swampy-from-the-rain yard? LOL.
I'm sorry he cancelled, but you handled it really well. I can see you getting stronger, FF, and it heartens me.
Gotta go to the $100 store now, will see you all later.
I'm here. I just had an exhausting but productive day.
I finally got fed up waiting for H to finish our daughters bedroom at the house ( 3 months is long enough I think...) so she and I went there today and did the whole thing. It turned out just like the picture in the Sears catalogue that she liked.
We painted the walls, installed the carpets, and I built the trim around the window. All that is left to do are baseboards and socket covers.
It looks great and she is delighted.
Now she can go there and visit him and sleep in a clean pretty room.
I tidied the whole place, and hauled tons of crap to the burning pile. I put my chair back on the porch where I used to sit and look at the stars.
John wasn't home when we got there this morning, and he showed up just when we were done. he woudn't look me in the eye, so I think he had been to see ow today. Anyway, he cooked us all supper, and it was fine until he made a comment about me taking over the house.
I don't much care. If he wants to live in squalor he can do it somewhere else.
Other than my encounter with him, it was a nice day.
Good grief, Shul! I thought it was a good day because I took care of a few chores and got the shopping done! Man you are motivated! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll bet your daughter *is* thrilled. How old is she?
I can't believe your WH made that comment about you taking over the house. Sheesh.
FF, was your H in a better mood this evening, or was it more of the same old, same old?
Ah, Weaver, mysterious and beautiful. Few men can resist that combination, I've heard! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Will you let us know how car4love is, after your dinner? I feel like I know her and am part of her cheering section now. I so hope she is well.
GC, I feel bad for making y'all think I am the poor sad spouse in our M and my H is the big bad wolf. I feel terrible realizing that you all hear mostly me griping about him, as if he is heartless. I know that's probably common, not getting the opportunity to hear the other side of the story from the other spouse. In all honesty, he really is the most extrordinary man I know. My sisters and girlfriends all feel comfortable confiding in him, as he is patient and gives wonderful, thoughtful advice. He is generous and kind to a fault, and diplomatic beyond belief. He is the man who taught me to take the higher road in all things, even when I am feeling petty and catty.
His work ethic does seem obsessive, I admit. He spends a lot of time trying to make things "better" so that, hopefully, one day he won't have to worry so much about money. This manic desire he has to improve things, finincially, for us, has serious roots -- it's a direct result of us having been being poor college students, having had to live on food stamps, Medicaid, WIC, etc and even having had to've boil water for some of our hot baths in the early years. That's WITH him working full-time and going to school, and me working part-time.
He really did think if he worked hard enough, long enough, he would be rewarded. His recent past neglect of me, of our family, wasn't due to selfishness, but of trying to do what he thought was the right thing -- so that we never have to go through that kind of financial desperation again.
He's only recently realized that it doesn't work that way. . . and he is making such efforts, truly. But we do have a long road, and I am not kidding myself.
I wish he could find the time to come online with us, but I am glad I have time to spend with him at all, now that he has dropped that second job.
I made Beth a promise. She has been waiting for so long, and she misses her home. Living in a motel is not the same.
She wants to go and sleep over there tonight, but I have just had a knife to the heart and I don't know if its a good idea.
H has been insisting that he broke up with ow and gave her back the cell phone, but I just confirmed that he is lying, and that he is still seeing her.
I guess thats the real reason he left to stay at the house- it was getting too awkward to keep me in the dark.
You should have heard his righteous indignation when I confronted him on the weekend.
I was a paranoid psycho with 'issues' and he is totally innocent of any wrongdoing.
It makes me want to puke.
I am sick and furious and hurt and a mess right now.
How do they look in the mirror?
And she is doing the same thing; playing her b/f for a fool while carrying on with my H.
Shul, I'm sorry, but he needs a kick in the teeth. He's neglected you and made you suffer for years. Let me come up there and help. I promise I won't hurt him. I'll just shake him for a while.
SLH... I've always been able to tell that Ti is a star. He just thinks he has to keep all those plates spinning, and it's too damned many plates.
Okay, am I the only one who has the image of the spinning plates from "The Tonight Show" burned in my brain?
I'm Snoopy dancing right now.
I've got a stable of songs that I cannot for the life of me finish. I get stuck on a melody I don't like, and stuck on some lame filler lyrics, and it's nearly impossible to shake it and send the tune in another direction.
So tonight I took this one I've been sitting on for months, and I banged on it and banged on it, experimented a little, and without really meaning to, just kept my mind loose. Droning away at the piece that way sorta hypnotized me, and after a while I stopped and went out to the porch to sit a minute. As I sat, something hit me - a vague melody. And I grabbed my acoustic, and I'll be damned, I've got something.
This is why, when people ask me how do you write songs, I tell them, honestly, I have no idea. It just happens sometimes. None of this was intentional. I just fell [censored]-backward into it.
I can tell I'm going to finish this one now.
This is what I love about music. It's like the song was there all the while, and I finally uncovered it. Total songwriter cliche, but that's really what it feels like.
But I think he is under the impression that they broke up. I haven't talked to him in months,though.
He is nasty , and I don't want to deal with him anymore.
I am hurting so bad right now that I can't think straight.
John was staying here for two months. I thought we were making a fresh start. He has told me numerous times that he broke up with her, but it never lasted.
Maybe it doesn't matter.
His unfaithfullness is the least of it.
Beth is still asking to go stay at the house tonight.
But if I go there, the way I am feeling, there might be a scene.
For the first time in 20 years, I am starting to seriously entertain the thought of divorce.
I think I am in shock right now. This feels like dday all over again. Four days ago we were making love . Today he was with her. He is probably on the phone with her right now.
( I should mention that there is no landline at the house, so I have no way to contact him, even in an emergency ,except to show up there. )
About the only positive thing that has happened lately is that he told me to feel free to come and go from the house as I like from now on, and that ow will never go there again. He said if he doesn't want company he will go out.
(For months he refused to let me in , saying that it was his residence and that I was not welcome there.)
On the other hand, he has to be concillatory to some extent, b/c I could make his life very difficult if I should so choose .
I wish right now that his whole world would come crashing down, and that he would come to repentance.
Maybe it is good that you are feeling this anger, if it is righteoous and just. Gray is right, he has neglected you and hurt you for FAR too long. This anger you are feeling is your self-esteem kicking in, saying "What the hell about me?" I implore you, don't ignore it. Aside from the damage he has done to you,do you want Beth to grow up with the understanding that a "normal" relationship between a man and a woman is one where the wife is treated as you are? Do you want that for her??
I have a daughter her age (10) and it brings tears to my eyes to think of her asking to spend the night there. I know you are in a tough spot. I know you are.
Make no moves tonight if you can. Breathe deep. There is time enough for drastic measures tomorrow, if need be, when you can think more clearly.
No lunch again today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I do understand how ify it is with his appointment schedule. Today is my 25th anni at my job. Can you believe a youngster like me working at the same place for 25 years!
SLH, no he was still a bit grumpy but went into his "cave" instead of beating up on me emotionally. Little to no conversation or interaction between us last night. Gosh it is so hot here. Ugh!
SS, SLH, GC (where is AD?)hope you all are having happy days today.
How was your night? Are you and H doing dinner today, or is he being a doofus?
Shul . . . where are yoooooouuuuu. . . .need an upppppddddaaaaaate. . . .
SS, hoping your day at work is going well and not stressful. Well, it's Thursday, anyhow. Yellowstone is it? Lucky dude!
Kimmy, if I don't hear from you, I am going to start barraging you with emails!
Weaver, you sexy thang, are you feeling better? Just check in, we won't bite your head off, I promise.
2Long, long time no hear. Wuz up whitchoo?
Aphelion, you never said, how was your vacation?
Gray, how did you know Ti was a Star (I've always thought so, even though I complain)? I am always bitching about things. LOL, Or are you thinking *he* has to put up with *me*? Do *I* look that bad? Aaawww, man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
can't wait to hear some of that music. Is any of it accoustic, or no?
Finished off the Pringles; there were no Doritos in the pantry. It's another rainy day -- the 17th in a row. At least I got the grass cut the other day! Whew! It wa getting so tall!
I'm really sorry about missing your lunch date again. That's the only time you two ever get to be alone together, right? I'd understand, but still be upset. *sigh* So sorry.
Why is he going into his cave? What am I missing? Is something going on at work or stressing him out? I'd think he'd be making grand gestures to try to make things right. It seems like he's slipping into old patterns too easily. Not the really bad ones, but unpleasant ones, nonetheless. Makes me indignant for you, ggggrrrrr.
I'm sorry, none of what I am saying is a solution or advice. I just wish he treated you better; you deserve to wear a crown my dear!
SLH, I have NO idea why he is going into his cave, why this pattern is re-emerging. He won't open up, this has always been a problem. I don't know how long I can do this truthfully. I thought we were beyond this particular stuff. I just cannot trust feeling happy anymore.
Right now you need to back off..do not push. Detach, and "act as if" everything is working out exactly according to plan. That you are happy and you are in recovery.
Give him space, DO NOT PUSH right now.
You need to find a way to be happy within regardless of what is going on with him. Be bright & shiny with loving indifference.
Draw him into your happiness. It is the only way Faith. Stop thinking the worst or the worst will surely happen. Trust Faith.
SLH,
You brighten my day.
Going to a ZZ Top, George Thorogood outdoor concert this weekend with my friends.
Had date with flower guy tonight but am going to cancel it now. He is married, but his wife left him a few months ago. I just found out.
Like I'm going back there! Oh my gosh, too funny. God is testing me I think.
Married!!!! oh it figures...but I was worried you didn't really want to go out with him anyway.
Weaver, I know I will. I lost sight of things over my extreme hurt due to his behavior towards me. I left him alone last night and won't push for our date tonight. Just let him be and I will be happy with me and the kids.
Beautiful poem, SS Almost vacation time? Is it Friday yet? LOL
So what is it with all the women on this board that mow the lawn?
LOL, Faith. I'm a housewife, remember? I want Ti to come home and have to worry about as little as possible; he's got enough stress with everything else, believe me. The yard's nothing.
Besides, he usually does the dishes, and I absolutely abhor the dishes. Spillover from having to do them every day of my chidhood I think -- I can't ever escape them, LOL. Yech!
Weaver's got the right idea about your H, and sounds like you're employing it anyhow. Be "shiny happy people" to him and live your life. You're getting stronger no matter what. we all see it, bay.
Too bad it didn't work. I had high hopes. I really do think it is minor, and temporary.
SS
SS, dear you and Weaver and SLH are right. A couple days does not make a man, or a life. All my best prayers and wishes for the most wonderful vacation.
We love you, SS! Please have a safe and wonderful journey, if you don't have time to check in with us later. Praying for an uplifting experience for you and Mrs. Seeking out there.
And the night shall be filled with music And the cares, that infest the day, Shall fold their tents, like the Arabs, And as silently steal away.
I love this verse, thank you SS. What a beautiful poem.
You did not cause me pain. You helped me, as did Aph by opening that window and allowing me to get some of that yucky stuff out. You allowed me to air out my soul, so to speak.
I am thankful I was able to say things I had not been able to say, but felt wordlessly for a long time.
I deleted some of those posts because I realized after how hurtful they would have been to you.
SS, I don't believe that you would ever, ever sit in judgement of me or anyone else. You are just not that way.
You help me by allowing me to say the bad stuff, and not think less of me for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
And the night shall be filled with music And the cares, that infest the day, Shall fold their tents, like the Arabs, And as silently steal away.
Weaver, that was my favorite stanza too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Back when this poem was written, the Arab nation was one of mystery and intrigue and romance, full of dashing dark bedouins and spice-filled gardens, with graceful doe-eyed maidens and traditional middle-eastern hospitality.
I always think of the cheftians of the desert, regal and just, when I think of the true Arabs. . . not what we as Americans often think of today, you know?
I didn't know you had deleted your posts, but I am glad you had a chance to let the fresh air in. I think I need to do that too sometimes. Sounds wonderful, absolving.
I don't know if this is anyone's cup of tea...but being the geezer that I am I just heard the other day a band Keane that really caught my ear. This is the song..
This Is The Last Time This is the last time That I will say these words I remember the first time The first of many lies Sweep it into the corner Or hide it under the bed Say these things they go away But they never do
Something I wasn't sure of But I was in the middle of Something I forget now But I've seen too little of
The last time You fall on me for anything you like Your one last line You fall on me for anything you like And years make everything alright You fall on me for anything you like And I, no I don't mind
This is the last time That I will show my face One last tender lie and Then I'm out of this place Tread it into the carpet Or hide it under the stairs You say that some things never die Well I tried and I tried
Something I wasn't sure of But I was in the middle of Something I forget now But I've seen too little of
The last time You fall on me for anything you like Your one last line You fall on me for anything you like And years make everything alright You fall on me for anything you like And I, no I don't mind
(Instrumental Break)
The last time You fall on me for anything you like Your one last line You fall on me for anything you like And years make everything alright You fall on me for anything you like And I, no I don't mind
It was cathartic in a way. Had some resentments, but hopefully the air is and will stay fresh and in the present now. Be glad you missed them, they were depressing as all get out.
Too many red flags to leave it alone. I know he means well, but that won't matter at all if things crash.
Uh. . .uh. . . SS, you can't toss that out and leave! Waaaa! What red flags? Am I missing something?
I've learned not to trust myself entirely in all things of the heart now -- foolish, yes, but inevitable, I suppose --if I am missing something, let me know. . . well, when you get back, 'kay?
LOL. What'll we dooooooooo while you're gone??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
(I hope you know I am pulling your leg, here. We'll be okay, but we WILL miss you!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Not sure what genre would be, lots of piano in their stuff. <a href="chttp://www.keanemusic.com/" target="_blank">click here</a> and listen to the song at the bottom of the page.
I should have taken the time and done it right the first time.
SLH, Your marriage. The story you told about your failed trip is not just a sad story. It's a warning red flag.
You say that you had a talk with him, and that he is responding, but I want to see 6 months or so of dating, and a 2nd honeymoon trip so that I can believe HIM.
It's not just you that has to be willing. HE HAS TO SHOW YOU HE IS, NOT JUST TELL YOU.
When you told that story, I just about lost it. (Tears, not anger.) When a wife does that kind of effort, and the H does not respond, it is B-I-G. Even I can see that.
So, I just want to make sure he responds to this the next time around.
He should be doig some of the planning for dates. That's what love is about. Kisses, and secret winks are fun, but love acomplishes what needs to be done too, or what do you really have?
Your marriage. The story you told about your failed trip is not just a sad story. It's a warning red flag.
Thanks for taking the time to address that. I didn't expect you to and I appreciate it, as I was concerned you had read something else into my latest descriptions of our marriage (rationalizations for his work ethic) and been concerned about something you foresaw for us.
Weaver, hope you aren't too rough on mister wants-to-rebound-with-you. Sad. Amazing. The world is filled with people that do all the wrong things to try and get happy, and then wonder, why am I unhappy? And learn nothing as they go.
SS, I love my dad, and wouldn't trade him for another, ever. Aside from my husband (whom I love in the ways you described about your wife), he's my best friend.
But if I couldn't have him, I'd want someone just like you.
Your kids are truly blessed. I hope they know that.
"Winter time comes just a little too fast, Summer just flies by on it's patient wings. I'm just a fool for those yesterdays, I've seen too many things in so many ways.
At night I just sit in my room by the fire, Lookin' out my misty window to the street below. Too many people lookin' lost and forlorn, Vagabonds without homes and no where else to go.
Pour me another glass of that sweet burgundy. Maybe that will help to ease the pain Burgundy I guess you're my only friend. Sweet Burgundy.
Outside my window I see the deaf and the blind Who are pondered for a moment and then left behind. Times that I think I was all alone, I just sit back and think I havn't sold my soul.
Pour me another glass of that sweet burgundy. Maybe that will help to ease the pain Burgundy I guess you're my only friend. Sweet Burgundy."
Okay, that thing about the man who likes his poodle and was bitten by his wife? TOTALLY missed all today's excitement. And only had minor doubts when he talked about how much money he was blowing on weddings and hotels. And still have no opinion, really. I remember very wise posts from him a year ago. What if half the people here are fakes? Scary. But rest assured, y'all, I know plenty who are not.
And I just realized that gossiping about MB members will get the mods on you like stink on...
Anyway, I hope nobody minds if I name my first solo album "Munchausen by Internet".
Ah! Somebody threw some red cedar on the fire. I always liked the smell of that. Makes your food taste funny if you cook on it, but just for burning, it's nice - and it burns bright too.
The poodle saga? I don't know. The guy's good at keeping an audience. That much is clear. Who knows about the rest. I hate for good people here to get hurt. We've all been betrayed enough already. I hope he's real, for that reason alone.
You know, if he were fake, he would have chosen a more manly-sounding breed of dog, LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Hey, a poodle can't help it if some strange people sometimes give them wierd haircuts. Just to throw in an irrelevant personal factoid, we briefly had a redbone [censored] . It was a sweet dog but, at 50 pounds, too much to have indoors.
I've seen some strange things on MB before - some clear fakes. There were two possible suicides (LaundryMistres and TireMan). I hope they were fake.
You know, if he were fake, he would have chosen a more manly-sounding breed of dog, LOL.
You know, I had to laugh at this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
There's a guy in my neighborhood who walks/jogs every evening, rain or shine. He's a tall dude, you can tell he works out regularly, wears a muscle shirt (I concede that it is bloody hot here, even in the rain!) and conservative shorts.
But. . .
He is always accompanied by this trio of small poodles! Two white and one, well, I guess peach colored. And yes, they are all "clipped".
To watch this man, briskly walking round and round our neighborhood -- or worse, jogging! -- is truly an exercise in self-control. So many times I have been out mowing, weedeating, edging, etc and have had to bite the insides of my cheeks until they bleed so as not to shriek with laughter at this unusual ensemble ambulating past.
Sure, it's the oxymoron of Rocko & FiFi. But add to that two other Fifis, three leashes that are way too long (thus they have the tendency to tangle when Muscle Man stops or slows down, rendering him immobile a la maypole), being squired about by three critters whose little legs are no match for the speed and stride of Rocko, and the incessant rrraarrww-rrraarrww-RRRAAARRWW! of the little dogs as they are dragged behind (yet still trying to go in three different directions), and it is all I can do to keep a straight face and wave nonchalantly when he strides by.
I'm really glad he wears a walkman; I can only hope he has it turned waaayy up. . . . because once he goes by, I am falling over myself in laughter, and I fear the sound of the lawnmower engine isn't quite covering it. . .
This is another reason why we have 2 (indoor/outdoor) Labrador Retrievers. My husband would look ridiculous; he's not a small man. LOL!
slh
This is not intended as Poodle Slander. Any insulting of Poodles is unintentional and is apologized for. Please do not hold Gray or Marriage Builders, Inc. responsible for this poster's personal observation of what happens on her street around 7PM on any given evening. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Well, I prefer to stay out of that fray. I know you all are real and most of the idiots are confirmed too as well as Pep as I did once have a private convo with her. You know the funny thing? I have never in my life been MORE honest than I have been on MB.
This is not intended as Poodle Slander. Any insulting of Poodles is unintentional and is apologized for. Please do not hold Gray or Marriage Builders, Inc. responsible for this poster's personal observation of what happens on her street around 7PM on any given evening. . .
So what are the date plans tonight? Tell me what you think of this. I was going to pick a small set of table/chairs for our new deck and set up dinner out there with candles for tonight. DS can join us for a romantic dinner.
Gray, You know music far better than I do, but........
Sometimes when I'm bummed, or when my spirit sags, I play SOME songs really loud. Turn it up until the speakers start to distort, then just a little more. Oh wait, musicians usually have good equipment. Turn it up as loud as you can stand, then down just a little.
Boston Peace of mind.
Kansas Carry on my Wayward son.
Toto Toe the line.
Aero Smith Dream On.
Boston Takin My Time.
Journey Any way you want it
Styx Come sail away
Usually three or four does it for me. Then I can turn it down, change it to Yani, and get some work done. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I like jazz loud. I like Led Zeppelin loud. Steve Earle, let's see... The New Pornographers, they're good loud. Ummmm... The Flaming Lips. I can't think at the moment. I'm cleaning house, and I'm on a deadline - a friend is coming over, and I made a private vow to have the house clean for when she gets here.
No, I'm not after her. Just want to have a relaxing evening, and she deserves to hang out in a place that isn't a funky pit.
Now, I want to see him do one for you, so you can relax. How well is he meeting YOUR needs?
Not well yet but I am ever hopeful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Baby steps right now as long as it is in the right direction.
"Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air And deep beneath the rolling waves in labyrinths of coral caves The echo of a distant tide Comes willowing across the sand And everything is green and submarine
And no one showed us to the land And no one knows the wheres or whys But something stirs and Something tries And starts to climb towards the light
Strangers passing in the street By chance two separate glances meet And I am you and what I see is me And do I take you by the hand And lead you through the land And help me understand the best I can
And no one calls us to move on And no one forces down our eyes And no one speaks And no one tries And no one flies around the sun
(Total Heaviosity Instrumental Break)
Cloudless every day you fall Upon my waking eyes Inviting and inciting me to rise And through the window in the wall Comes streaming in on sunlight wings A million bright ambassadors of morning
And no one sings me lullabies And no one makes me close my eyes And so I throw the windows wide And call to you across the sky."
Faithful, Can you see a time when he will do his share? Has he before?
I am not worrying, but seeking information.
Do you honestly feel it is only a matter of time, or do you worry about long term?
SS, there have been times he has met my needs, not often but enough to give me hope. Not really been one to plan dates but that may be because I used to want to control everything. Yes, to worrying about the future...I think that may always be the case. Or at least until we have a few years of no infidelity under our belts.
BTW, SS are you from my generation? Every one of those songs (except yanni LOL) are oldtime favs of mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thanks 2long. You are a deep guy, and I wonder if your W couldn't handle that once she found out.
SS is a little older than Faithful. I turn 50 this year. The stuff I listed are things I like to play loud. As you know, music can be used to agument a mood, or to set a mood. If I am feeling slugish, and I have things to do, I play those loud ones to get me going.
If I am in a mellow mood, not in a hurry, I play other things.
I like light jazz, (some of it) and instrumental, I like mellow rock, and classical, and country.
Well, see, I grew up in a small town. It had one radio station, and it played everyting. Country during the afternoon, Rock at night for the kids, Mormon Tabernacle choir on Sunday, and then specialized programs covering the whole spectrum. This was before the "canned" programs of today. So, I like some of everything, except for acid rock, and rap. I played in the school band (trunpet) so I played and love some classical. We placed in the top three of every band competion we entered, it was something we enjoyed.
Anyway, Faithful, Ask your H if he wants to start up the trade date thing.
It took me a while to get into it, he may balk at it at first. It might be that he takes you to ball games, and you take him to art shows, but it has worked out well for us.
The date before the last one, I took W to an Art show - exibits from the Great Southwest Railway collection. Quite good, then we went to dinner. Her last one was a movie - Herbie unplugged. We like the low key stuff.
Ask him what he thinks. If he will buy in, it will be a good thing for both of you, but it will also give you a big boost to know he will help with your future.
If you have friends at work, see if you can trade baby sitting once a month or something. You need alone time. I know DS doesn't intrude, but it's a subtle thing, and alone is better.
Start out slow, you do one or two, then ask him to do one and set a date. You can make them regular later after you both get comfortable with it.
But then again, I also used to listen to Air Supply, Bread, Chicago, the Carpenters. . . Can't listen to most of their songs now.
W and I sort of say "Color my world" by Chicago is our song. (But we claim every love song that is playing, whenever it plays.)
I personally like "make it with you" by Bread as far as my favorite popular song from my youth.
It's funny, I heard my daughter singing 70's songs, and asked her about them. She says they are better than the "new stuff." She and her friends listen to the classic rock station. Go figure.
SS, it's sad, but she's right -- most of the mainstream stuff right now is pretty awful.
And that's long before you throw in the videos with the provacative dancing, nudity, foul language (it's edited out on the radio stations, but not TV, go figure!), etc.
Being parents is tough, huh?
Life was a lot simpler back then. People sang songs about what they felt. Now so much of it is for effect.
Have you noticed, so many of the teenagers these days are wearing t-shirts emblazoned with bands that only we would remember? I don't know if those shirts belong to their parents or what, but it's the "hip" thing to do.
FF, if I don't get to come back to the 'puter before this evening, have a good date tonight. We want updates! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SS, no beans to spill. This is a no way never never situation, from both our perspectives. I protest too much, but it's true.
SS, I was relieved you were joking about Yanni. I didn't want to assume. Has the pendulum swung? Am I too careful about not hurting people's feelings?
I'm not ga-ga over 70s rock. In my youth I was beaten over the head with classic rock. It was ruined for me. But Beggars Banquet and LZ's 4th record are still two of the best ever made.
There's so much more music out there today, and lots and lots of it is great. But listen to Clear Channel, Viacom, and Disney stations (I think those account for about 95% of the music stations in the U.S.), and you get what you came for. Over-produced, over-marketed pap that you can ignore.
Beggars Banquet. Yep.
SLH, have you heard Lucinda Williams' recent live record? "Righteously" is one sexy song, for grownups.
Gray, I was thinking about you after you prop'ed me on my 'anniversary' thread. No insights to give you, just remembering your sit, and chasing up some early exchanges between us.
It used to be YOU hopeful and ME despondant. Never dreamed it would be Squid who stayed IN marriage and Sparrow who left.
Life has teeth and bites, don't feed it open hand.
Ain't it strange, Bob? I remember those times too.
I remember telling you, "No more midnight drives, buddy, agreed?"
People who knew, former WW even, told me then, things like, "I am VERY confident your sparrow will return. She can't do this. It's too unspeakable."
Well, unspeakable or not, she's done it, and she's gone almost all the way. Sparrow and the tinman plan to get married.
Why? Why would they do that? What would be the point?
Anyway... my dinner companion is late.
SS, have a wonderful vacation. If you stop in any of the gift shops, check out the Moran paintings. I have a book of his prints, and one day, when I have nothing but time on my hands, they'll get framed and put on the wall. Very beautiful paintings. Purdy pictures, what's not to like?
Have fun. Yellowstone is one of my favorite places.
I am okay. This place just isn't very good for me right now. I feel like I am growing, but keep coming back here, to see what my friends are doing mostly, and then get in a bad place mentally.
For me, this place has become bad mojo, for lack of a better word.
I really, really need a place that teaches forgiveness and self growth and I have found it on Royce's site, but I miss my friends here.
Then what happened with Coach, and then what Tempest wrote...it is just not good for me right now.
I sure am going to miss my friends on this thread though, and the people I adore on this website, but for me I'm afraid I have to get out of here.
It makes me nuts when I come back here.
Take care 2long, I hope when I am at a place that I can come back and be strong emotionally and mentally, that everyone will still be here that I care about.
Maybe though as SS says, we will all meet again someday.
What an odd few days it's been. I'm so glad I can come here and warm my hands at this camp fire.
SS is gone, right? So I can say this: I do believe he's the most genuinely compassionate and loving man I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. (Even though I've never met him in person.) There's no anger in him. He never answers anger with anger. A godly man -- and that's not something I say lightly -- one who really does walk in Jesus' and Buddha's footsteps. I'm honored to know him. I'd like to be more like him. I'd like the whole world to be more like him. I don't think we would have any wars. I wonder if SS would like a disciple. I bet he'd be annoyed, just like most of the holy men who end up with disciples.
I'm glad 2Long teases him, too. Because I know SS laughs, and I have a feeling that the rest of us don't make him laugh nearly enough.
SS, when you get back, this part is for you. It looks like the furthest west I'm going to make it this summer is Minneapolis. I'm going to visit Cerri with DD. At least, I think I am, if I can get good flights.
You live in Colorado near Zion Canyon, if I remember right. I want to bring DD to see Zion one day soon. But not quite yet, because at 2 1/2 she won't remember it well. I think next summer I'll try to start the trips-to-places-she-should-see. Zion would be a good place to start.
Today I got a call from our parenting coordinator. She's the lady who tries to keep me and my ex from each other's throats while we're doing DD things.
I've been asking for months that we acknowledge and begin to forgive for the hurts that we've done to each other.
I finally got the parenting coordinator to agree that it's a good idea a couple of weeks ago. She thought I wanted justice. I laughed when she finally burst out and said it. "Justice?" I said. "Justice doesn't heal. I've had justice, just about as much as I need. What we need is compassion."
There was a dead silence on the other end of the phone. Then... "Compassion?"
"Yeah."
"Compassion is the first step to forgiveness."
"I know."
"Forgiveness is a really good thing."
"Yeah. I know. I think this would be an okay first step."
So now the parenting coordinator is pushing it along, a little faster than I really want to go. I know it's good for us. That doesn't mean I'm looking forward to ....
The call that came from the parenting coordinator today. She said, "I want to meet with you and [ex] together. To be in the same room and take the first step toward acknowledging and forgiving. I want to know if you're available the first week of August to do that."
So now we're meeting on August 4th to talk about compassion and forgiveness and healing. I have a writing assignment before that. I'm to write about the things I've done that were harmful, to acknowledge the pain they've caused, and to apologize for them.
I don't have a problem with that. I've already made as much of a "fearless moral inventory" as I can, and I'll do it again without too much trouble.
It will be hard to look at my ex because I'm afraid that she won't be able to acknowledge the things that have really hurt me. I'm afraid that even though I said them in ways that were as clear as I could, that she still never heard.
I'm afraid of walking away from that meeting actually caring again. I need, really need, for that level of caring to not reappear in my life. My anger has protected me from the pain of caring in many instances.
I don't know what will replace if the last of the anger fades. They say the love never ends. There has to be a way for the pain of it to fade, though.
And I'm afraid of feeling all the pain again, though there's no way to avoid that. Maybe this time there will be more healing. I suppose there always is when we face the pain, when we sit with it and listen to it and comfort it. I don't know that I can comfort any of my ex's pain. I don't know that I created it.
She's very angry at how hard I made things. That I didn't just go along with the divorce. That I said no, that I wouldn't play. She's furious -- humiliated and very hurt -- that I've said she's wrong, and that I exposed her relationship with her new husband, and that I exposed her revokation of her consent to the adoption. I can't honestly say that I'm sorry for those things, though I am sorry to see her in pain.
I can't say that I'm sorry for her rage when I wore my wedding ring last year after her grandmother's funeral.
I could say I'm sorry that her rage fueled her engagement to her new husband. Even that, though? I'm glad that it happened. It saved me three months of waiting for an end that seemed very slow in coming.
I've done things that I shouldn't have, certainly. The ranting about our daughter's family story wasn't necessary. I could have just said no again, without turning it as ugly as I did.
I never should have said that I would fight her for our daughter if she ended up with her new husband. Even if it was true, bringing the kids into the fight makes it nuclear. Before it was conventional warfare.
And I can say that I should have left when I first wanted to in the summer of 2002. Even earlier than that, in December of 2001, when she first started to withdraw. That very first time when I went downstairs and cried and thought our marriage was over. I should have packed and left then.
It would have been horribly hard and devastating. Exactly like it was to do it 2 years later. And in 2001, we didn't have a baby.
There would have been no other life we were altering forever. I can say that with some certainty. I'm sorry that I didn't have the strength to take a stand then, to say no, this doesn't work for me and I'm leaving this situation that is so very painful to me.
I thought, I really thought, that my patience and easygoing nature were a virture, and I am absolutely sorry for the pain that I could have avoided for all of us if I had simply said that I wouldn't tolerate a painful situation one minute longer.
I can say, too, that I'm sorry I didn't ask her to leave years ago, when she questioned whether she wanted to be with me. We'd been together for three years and I was completely in love with her. So I didn't ask her to leave, I turned into the usual mess. And then I stopped talking about it and just went on with life and let her figure it out, and I though it was all okay when she told me she was done thinking and there was no one in the world she loved more than me.
It turns out that meant "so I'll wait until I do find someone I love more and then dump you like an old tire."
I didn't know that at the time. I'm still sorry I didn't stand up for myself and say that I deserve to be the center of someone's world. I'm learning. I say that now. I'll say that to her in our meeting, probably. It's not a judgement of her. It's simply that I know it about myself now. I do deserve it. I'm a truly worthy and beautiful human being. I didn't know that -- didn't think it -- didn't believe it.
I still have "fat" days and Cerri would tell you that I refuse to believe any recognition of external attractiveness I may possess. But inside, there's something a whole lot stronger than there was.
My ex chose not to cherish me, to cherish that which is beautiful and worthy in me. I know, now, that that is a reflection on her ability, not on whether I really am beautiful or worthy. And because she chose not to do those things, she lost me. Oh, yes, she's the one who left, absolutely. And in the leaving, I lost her as well -- someone I've loved for almost 20 years. But she lost me, too, and in the end, I think maybe she lost more than I did. I lost her and an adoption that would protect me and our daughter.
She lost me. And the integrity that goes with keeping her word. And one day our daughter will look at this whole story. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a sense that our daughter's pain will be the tenfold repayment. Maybe to both of us for our parts in it. But... I think maybe it will be visited more on my ex than on me.
That thought quiets much of my inner turbulence when I realize it. I hurt for my daughter and my ex when I think about what that's going to look like. Maybe it'll happen when our daughter is a teenager. Maybe when she's in her 20s. Maybe it won't happen at all.
But...
I think it will. And I'm very sad for both of them. I can't protect either of them, nor myself, from that future pain. And I haven't figured out how to change that day that I see coming, how to transform it into something good for all of us.
I don't know how I got here from thinking about SS and his compassion.
I keep on fallin' In and out of love With you Sometimes I love ya Sometimes u make me blue Sometimes I feel good
At times I feel used Lovin you darlin' Makes me so confused
I keep on Fallin' In and out of love with you I never loved someone The way that I love you
[Verse 2] Oh, oh , I never felt this way How do you give me so much pleasure And cause me so much pain Just when I think Ive taken more than would a fool I start fallin' back in love with you
I keep on Fallin' In and out of love with you I never loved someone The way that I love you
[Bridge] Oh baby I, I, I, I'm fallin' I, I, I, I'm fallin' Fall
I keep on Fallin' In and out of love with you I never loved someone The way that I love you
Im fallin' In and out of love with you I never loved someone The way that I love you
Im fallin' In and out of love with you I never loved someone The way that I love you
I think I can say this without coming across creepy: she looked goooooooood. She's doing very well.
Guess I finally broke the silence with her. We talked a little about the other two. Not as much as you might imagine, but some. It's not like it used to be.
The tinman is still being an a-hole, would you believe? She doesn't mean to antagonize him. If he makes a demand, she only shoots it down if it honestly conflicts with what she wants to do. Of course, he thinks it's all about him. He thinks she's obsessed with him, apparently. She just wishes she didn't have to see him.
J... I was thinking about what you wrote, about the consequences of everything still in store, possibly, for your daughter and your ex, years into the future.
Car4love told me that the tinman has put, in his affadavits--part of the public record--stuff like, car4love forced him to get her pregnant with their second child (no I do not know what that means). She thinks about this information getting to her son when he's older, wonders if it will, wonders what she will say if he ever asks.
It's like a tsunami, invisible as long as it's in the deep ocean. Invisible so long as the child is too young to ask, too small to look for it. But the child will wonder, and will probably ask, and may investigate. And when the child goes looking, all the information is just sitting there, impossible to conceal. Nobody has to be malicious. The truth sits and waits, and comes out in its time. And this latent pain, this suffering that you have already lived through, it's like a living thing. You have no power to kill it, because it's the truth. You may as well try to hide a mountain.
All you can do for your girl is try to give her the strength to bear the weight of it.
I made a friend at the park recently. Her kids are the same ages as mine.
The reason I bring this up, GC is that her wxh thinks everything is STILL about him 3 years after the fact. Everything is him, him, him. He does no wrong. He came at her while she was sitting in her car for a kid exchange. She rolled up her window, and he broke it. She called the police, and it's HER fault he was arrested. TM might not be that psycho, but it's still all about him.
Not only is he fully entitled to leaver C4L, but she is expected to be on pins and needles whenever he roars for the rest of her life. That she isn't, pisses him off to no end.
Wonder how Sparrow takes this? I mean, his rantings probably aren't limited to his lawyer. I dunno about Sparrow, but if my guy kept going after his stbxw legally I'd start to wonder if he was ever gonna let it end and when would she be out of their lives.
As for the baby, boys belong to their moms...esp if the mom is raising them by herself. He's going to be her steadfast supporter...watch and see.
Oh. And how exactly do you FORCE a man to get you pg? Wait - after a visual involving handcuffs, whips, and dog collars, maybe I don't want to know. I can see it: C4L holding a gun to his head, "IMPREGNATE ME NOW!!!!!!!!!"
I didn't know that at the time. I'm still sorry I didn't stand up for myself and say that I deserve to be the center of someone's world. I'm learning. I say that now. I'll say that to her in our meeting, probably. It's not a judgement of her. It's simply that I know it about myself now. I do deserve it. I'm a truly worthy and beautiful human being. I didn't know that -- didn't think it -- didn't believe it.
I still have "fat" days and Cerri would tell you that I refuse to believe any recognition of external attractiveness I may possess. But inside, there's something a whole lot stronger than there was.
My ex chose not to cherish me, to cherish that which is beautiful and worthy in me. I know, now, that that is a reflection on her ability, not on whether I really am beautiful or worthy. And because she chose not to do those things, she lost me.
J, you could be the emotional equivalent of my twin with those words. I am sorry for your pain.
Today was my pilot friend's birthday. Last night she was angry at me, for implying that if I thought her birthday plans were BORING, then I'd just skip going out with her and do my own thing.
It was like dealing with an angry girlfriend. Funny.
Sparrow and I never had confusing boy/girl conflicts like this. Well, toward the end we did, but she just hated me at that point and there was nothing I could do right.
I was remembering something that made me so sad tonight. I might have told this story before.
Many years ago, sparrow had her wisdom teeth taken out. I sat in the waiting room. An assistant came out, said sparrow was asking for me. I went into the recovery room. Sparrow sat there, her little cheeks all puffed up, and tears pouring from her eyes. She was helpless, weak, and scared. She couldn't talk. There was a little slip of paper next to her. They'd given her a pen, and in her hazy state, she'd managed to write my name, barely legible, on the slip of paper. I sat down next to her and she sunk into me.
I got her home and put her into bed. It hurt her to talk, and I worked in another room. I took a Coke can and put a bunch of pennies in it, so if she needed anything she could just shake the can and I'd come.
She had "dry socket" and was in a heap of pain for a few days. On followup visits, the surgeon was not very nice to her. Once I called him in the evening, because Advil wasn't cutting it, and she was suffering. He was so annoyed. Big jerk!
I'd have killed to protect her. Remembering these sorts of things isn't torture, except I think she still needs a protector, and she doesn't have one.
How's everyone else tonight?
Where I live, you know you've reached midsummer when the crickets come out at night.
The last thing I remember was a few weeks ago when 2long handed me a jar with clear liquid in it and mumbled something about his grandaddy's recipe....
It seems like some women resent being protected. Maybe they feel patronised or whatever the word is.
Me, I don't want to be liberated, or independant, but it has been forced on me.
Weirdly , today, H and I were talking about men being protectors.
So much is going on here, and I haven't had a chance to process any of it.
Beth has gone to camp for 5 days , so maybe I will have a chance to breathe if work is not too crazy.
First off, I had the meltdown a week or so ago and H left to stay at the house.
This was a good thing.
He told me that Beth and I are welcome there anytime, (which is a pleasant change from threatening me with retaining orders if I went there...' )
I was a bit hesitant , but he said that he promises that ow will never go there again.
So I have. I finished Beths room and cleaned the house so that it is fit to be in, and she and I have been going there every night after I close up.
He got rid of her van that had been sitting in the yard, finally, which I am happy about.
I am sleeping in the same bed with him, but we haven't had sex since I had the meltdown. I still feel traumatised .We fall asleep every night holding hands, which I can't explain.
In the morning I have tea and putter in the garden, until Beth is up, and then we leave.
I don't think he has seen ow this week. She has still been calling him, but he doesn't know that I know.
I called her a few days ago, on impulse. Maybe because everything feels so crazy with all the lying and back and forth. I thought we could talk.
It was like talking to the devil. Twisted. Now I know where H gets his fog from.
I told him that we talked. I told him that I thought about what she said, and that he should probably move in with her. I think that made him nervous.
Not bad GC….Hiya Shul….how’s your lovely province….heard it’s been a wet one this summer. I’ve been an infrequent lurker, but as I don’t have my kids here for the month of July <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />, I’ve been working 3 weeks straight with one day off. Fun stuff though.
Brief update: I thought and hoped I would be divorced by now, but it appears that either my STBXW was not picking up he papers from her lawyer or her lawyer was not pursuing the issue. Anyways, my lawyer asked to have the papers back so a process server could serve them, STBX’s lawyer then sent my lawyer an affidavit saying they had been served.. She now wants to go to mediation regarding communication issues and parenting issues!
Long and short of it is I have decided to allow direct emails and TM’s. I cannot put my friend through anymore intermediary stuff. It really doesn’t hurt me to communicate directly with her now and as I no longer want to save this marriage….what’s the point? I’ve also informed my lawyer that the parenting regime set up in our separation agreement which was specifically written to survive a divorce, will not change. Me thinks the STBX is actually realizing she does not get to see her children on any weekends. Oh well. She signed it with the guidance of competent counsel.
GC, where is yours at? I’ve only read snippets as of late.
Today was my pilot friend's birthday. Last night she was angry at me, for implying that if I thought her birthday plans were BORING, then I'd just skip going out with her and do my own thing.
It was like dealing with an angry girlfriend. Funny.
Sparrow and I never had confusing boy/girl conflicts like this. Well, toward the end we did, but she just hated me at that point and there was nothing I could do right.
I was remembering something that made me so sad tonight. I might have told this story before.
Many years ago, sparrow had her wisdom teeth taken out. I sat in the waiting room. An assistant came out, said sparrow was asking for me. I went into the recovery room. Sparrow sat there, her little cheeks all puffed up, and tears pouring from her eyes. She was helpless, weak, and scared. She couldn't talk. There was a little slip of paper next to her. They'd given her a pen, and in her hazy state, she'd managed to write my name, barely legible, on the slip of paper. I sat down next to her and she sunk into me.
I got her home and put her into bed. It hurt her to talk, and I worked in another room. I took a Coke can and put a bunch of pennies in it, so if she needed anything she could just shake the can and I'd come.
She had "dry socket" and was in a heap of pain for a few days. On followup visits, the surgeon was not very nice to her. Once I called him in the evening, because Advil wasn't cutting it, and she was suffering. He was so annoyed. Big jerk!
I'd have killed to protect her. Remembering these sorts of things isn't torture, except I think she still needs a protector, and she doesn't have one.
How's everyone else tonight?
Where I live, you know you've reached midsummer when the crickets come out at night.
GC
Big Sigh Oh, Gray. I have not spent any time in you world, but I just read this one post. It has painted me melancholy.
You have touched me with this post.
I do not know you or your sitch - but I will try read some. Prayers to you.
Binder! Wow, haven't seen you in a long time. Shul that sitch almost sounds promising. Are you still hopeful? GC, my H forced me to take care of myself to the point that during MC he claimed I don't need him. ROTFL! He created the sitch! Then OW baby mama was a "rescue", sheesh. Actually I think the last OW was some sort of rescue too. Her hubby was never home and never paid any attention to her, boo hoo.
Funny thing is I really have needed rescuing and protecting so many times and had to face those demons alone. I hope he will step up next time and slay dragons for me. GC, you are such a good man.
Been listening to way too much Nickelback & Fuel lately. . . guess that speaks volumes, huh?
It's always "someday". . .
Argh.
"Someday"
How the hell did we wind up like this? Why weren't we able, to see the signs that we missed And try turn the tables
I wish you'd unclench your fists, and unpack your suitcase Lately there's been too much of this But don't think it's too late
Nothing's wrong, just as long as You know that someday I will
Someday, somehow I'm gonna make it all right but not right now I know you're wondering when (You're the only one who knows that) Someday, somehow I'm gonna make it all right but not right now I know you're wondering when
Well I'd hope that since we're here anyway That we could end up saying Things we've always needed to say So we could end up staying Now the story's played out like this Just like a paperback novel Let's rewrite an ending that fits Instead of a Hollywood horror
Nothing's wrong, just as long as You know that someday I will
Someday, somehow I'm gonna make it all right but not right now I know you're wondering when (You're the only one who knows that) Someday, somehow I'm gonna make it all right but not right now I know you're wondering when (You're the only one who knows that)
[Solo]
How the hell did we wind up like this? Why weren't we able, to see the signs that we missed And try to turn the tables Now the story's played out like this Just like a paperback novel Let's rewrite an ending that fits Instead of a Hollywood horror
Nothing's wrong, just as long as You know that someday I will
Someday, somehow I'm gonna make it all right but not right now I know you're wondering when (You're the only one who knows that) Someday, somehow I'm gonna make it all right but not right now I know you're wondering when (You're the only one who knows that) I know you're wondering when (You're the only one who knows that) I know you're wondering when. . .
I have a hard time reading a whole song that I don't know. I'm not very good with poetry. So rather than quote another whole song, I'll just quote the part that haunts me tonight.
Spend all your time waiting For that second chance For a break that would make it okay There’s always one reason To feel not good enough And it’s hard at the end of the day
You know, one of the bad things about rediscovering music is that I'm also rediscovering how strongly it affects my emotions. It's not as bad as movies (I don't go to movies because of what they do to me), but it's bad enough.
Gray, I used to worry about protecting my ex. I swore once never to hurt her again. And you know, I did protect her.
And she liked that protection, until she grew to hate it -- as she grew to hate me. Then the protection became control.
I still don't know quite what to make of that. Was I controlling? I don't know. I know that when we would have a discussion, she would tell me I was completely wrong about what I thought she ought to do. And then three weeks later, she would tell me what she was going to do -- and it would be the thing I had suggested.
I used to think it was a funny, endearing part of our relationship. Perhaps it was.
It was also a sign of how much she depended on me. She used to say things that were exactly my words, almost as if she didn't have any of her own.
I wonder, looking back on it, whether any part of what I saw in her was real, or whether it was just an act because it was what she thought I wanted. I asked her many times to be real with me, to be honest and open and forthright, to let me know her heart and mind and soul.
She declined. And so, another song. For her, for me, for you, for all of us.
I'm pulled down by the undertow I never thought I could feel so low For all the darkness I feel like letting go
If all of the strength and All of the courage Come and lift me from this place I know I can love you much better than this...
Full of grace.
It's better this way, I say Having seen this place before Where everything we say and do hurts us all the more It's just that we stay -- too long -- In the same old sickly skin
Pulled down by the undertow I never thought I could feel so low In all the darkness I feel like letting go...
If all of the strength and all of the courage Come and lift me from this palce I know I can love you much better than this...
Full of grace.
..........................
It's better this way.
Maybe it's better this way, gray. I don't know. I don't feel like it is. But maybe it is.
[i]I am looking for someone who can take As much as I give And give back as much as I need You know and they still have the will to live Cause I am intense I am in need I am in pain I am in love And I feel forsaken you know Like the things I gave away
I'm pretty down on the possibility that someone will go for me. It's not a low-self-esteem thing. I just have a feeling I'm going to strike out for a long time.
J, I don't think it's better. You sound more down these days. Would you say you are?
Yeah, Gray, I am more down these days. It's a faint lump in the back of my throat.
Some of it is the impending meeting with my ex and the things I'm thinking about with that.
Some of it is the burden of furniture and china and glass that landed in my house over the weekend -- relics from my aunt's house that have been in storage since my cousin's marriage fell apart in 2001, right after my aunt died. And there's much more history to that furniture. Generations of it, in some cases. There's a cauldron in my living room that was used for bloodletting at the battle of Pea Ridge. My mom's grandfather fought in that battle.
And some of it is the man with the sun in his eyes. He haunts me. Yesterday he took on the face of a man I know. A married man I know. It made me sad. If the man with the sun in his eyes is married, then I will take a vow of celibacy rather than follow this longing that urges me on.
And circling back, some of it is considering the hard things. Atonement. Making amends. Forgiveness. Reconciliation.
It makes me tired. So much pain in the world. And yet we go on, and much of the time we're happy.
And then I clicked on the link to the article about www.DateLance.com. And I laughed as much as I have in a couple of days. Only in Utah would people be THIS pro-marriage. But I'm glad there are people like this out there in the world.
I didn't sign up for a date with Lance. Because, well, I can't really go live in Utah. I do hope he finds someone wonderful, though.
Many years ago, sparrow had her wisdom teeth taken out. I sat in the waiting room. An assistant came out, said sparrow was asking for me. I went into the recovery room. Sparrow sat there, her little cheeks all puffed up, and tears pouring from her eyes. She was helpless, weak, and scared. She couldn't talk. There was a little slip of paper next to her. They'd given her a pen, and in her hazy state, she'd managed to write my name, barely legible, on the slip of paper. I sat down next to her and she sunk into me.
GC,
You stirred my memories too.
A year before we were married, my wife had her wisdom teeth out - the day before thanksgiving. The people she was living with had invited family etc. and were busy preparing. They (with my future wife's wholehearted agreement) asked me to take her to have the oral surgery. The place was like an assembly line. They had these little alcoves in the hall - almost like a shelf for each patient to lie on while they recovered - with only a curtain to separate them from the hallway. She was so groggy - didn't really come around at all. They wanted her out of the way. I almost had to carry her to the car - drove her "home" (to the place she was staying) and carried her in to bed. The lady she was living with (older lady with MS) called me that night at 10pm said that my future-wife (that's not what she called her, LOL) had slept all day and could not be awakened - had eaten nor drinken (sp?) nothing all day. I went over there and kind of got her up a bit to drink something.
The next evening (T-giving day) she called - said she had been unable to eat anything - the house was full of her hosts' noisy relatives, and asked "could I take her out for a milkshake?" I had been cooking and feeding my family (my bro, his wife and son and my Mom) but we were done - so I left them and picked her up. We drove around for awhile trying to find some fast-food place that was open. No joy. It was Thanksgiving day, after all. So, we went to a grocery and bought frozen strawberries, milk, ice-cream and came back to my house. That was the day I learned to make milkshakes. I've gotten it down pretty well over the years. For a long time, my W would not make milkshakes - but would always ask me. It was one of our special little things. She still thinks they are better when I make 'em.
well, guys, it's a ghost town lately. Are we all wasting away without SS and Weaver? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Just J, I love the way you write. Beautiful. You articulate your feelings so well . . . I'm jealous <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I think I've been burying how I feel for so long that I often get angry and know not why; or rather, how that one action or conversation was actually steeped in history that hadn't been addressed and set me off, but (ignorant of the reasons why) I blame my anger on the singular action. And/Or, on another level, it's easier to have weak, diluted emotions than to feel any raw power or passion or hurt or envy or love. I feel too much.
And it hurts to not have it.
Am I making sense?
I know sometimes my H must think I am nuts because I go off at the slightest provocation, but in truth it is months, years of not realizing my own emotions, and sometimes the pipeline detouring them all down, breaks. But lately it has always been easier to stuff them down and continue in my traces of daily life. Straining to get ahead, to change things, like a mule before a plowshare. (Now there's a picture for y'all!)
I envy you your ability to write what you think and feel. There was I time I could, years ago, but that clarity has eluded me for some time. I miss it, often.
Your posts have helped me to try again, to be honest with myself, with some success. Thank you.
Thanks FF. I'm just waiting for the letter from the county telling me I'm divorced. Maybe it's in my mailbox right now.
I just invited a woman who works for the feds down the hall to my gig on Saturday. I've known her since I've been here, but not great. She seemed excited. Maybe she'll even show up.
I'm a sappy ol' romantic fool. Why did this happen 2 me, then?
Anyway, Bee Gees "Holiday"
"Ooh you're a holiday , such a holiday Ooh you're a holiday , such a holiday
It's something I thinks worthwhile If the puppet makes you smile If not then you're throwing stones Throwing stones, throwing stones
Ooh it's a funny game Don't believe that it's all the same Can't think what I've just said Put the soft pillow on my head
Millions of eys can see Yet why am I so blind When the someone else is me It's unkind, it's unkind
de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de de
Yet millions of eyes can see Yet why am I so blind When the someone else is me It's unkind, it's unkind
Ooh you're a holiday , ev'ry day , such a holiday Now it's my turn to say , and I say you're a holiday It's something I thinks worthwhile If the puppet makes you smile If now then you're throwing stones Throwing stones , throwing stones
FAR... my gettin' served story may not be the best one of all time, but it's not bad. I was served on 26 July '04, three days before my 10th anniversary, by a dirtbag who drove a rusty convertible up to my house and parked on the wrong side of the street.
Well I will be dipped in sh*t. I missed the anniversary of getting served. That post was the first time I'd thought of it. That's gotta be a good sign.
It's rather amazing 2 us left coasters. It's so green over here. Where I hail from, we have 2 WATER our [censored] if we want it not 2 2rn brown! It ac2ally RAINS here!
Where I am, I often look at the "current conditions" report at night and see something like "77 degrees. 93% humidity". Stuff pretty much waters itself when it's like that. All my windows are wet on the outside every morning - and sometimes all day.
Gave my presentation schpiel this afternoon (yes2rday?). Drank more Arrogant [censored] than I probably shoulda (they had it ON TAP!), so I'm sucking down some decaf coffee and playing iTunes 2 level off first.
Well, I'll think about it, AD. Right now, I think I may be 2 in love and in pain 2 know what 2 post. I love my W, I feel a lot of pain about our R even still that I don't know if I can/should vocalize, and I feel a lot of pain for Coach right now.
I'll think about it, but please don't wait up. It may never come.
FF, what's up with your sitch? Do you have a thread I don't know about? I'm jonsing for FF updates latley. . . and since SS usually does the asking, I get my fix thru your answers to him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
2Long, you're hurting so, and I wish there was something we could help you with. I know it's all a stalemate right now. . . but who knows? I think of your sitch often. There's no shame in just loving her. Weaver was so right.
FAR, I'm glad you came over to play. This is one of the warmest, safest places to vent, chill or share a laugh. No stress, no browbeating, just relaxing with friends.
No, Gray, nothing to report; nothing that bears reporting anyhow. (And don't get me started, you know I can wax poetic for pages) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
GC, do you have plans for Friday? Hope so.
Reading your description of the Sparrow's dentist appt brought very real tears to my eyes. Some woman are so damn foolish. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
AD, any changes on your front?
Where're are the girls lately? Shul? Weaver? Kimmy? JJ? I see I'm going to have to start emailing everyone to get a head count! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Well, I need to run a ton of errands and cut the grass before another deluge strikes. . . and it's already looking pretty dark outside. Y'all have a great day.
Hi SLH, not much to report really. He just says he doesn't know why he can't open up to me. I don't know I can't force him. I see little things falling back to how they were and it is not acceptable to me to live like that anymore. So, I guess we are going to have to talk. I see him detaching somewhat, not acceptable. I need to be loved and cared for. sigh...I guess I am just rambling.
Hows the scheduling of time together going? (gotta keep at you while ss is away LOL)
SLH, I didn't even think about Friday - my and sparrow's 11th anniversary. Yeah, I should do something.
Today I thought about the sparrow with a new perspective, sort of.
I imagine her often being very detached from everything she's done. When she does divorce-related stuff, I'll bet she goes on auto-pilot.
I remember over the years, she seemed often not very in touch with what she felt, both physically and emotionally.
She'd show symptoms of sickness. I'd ask if it felt like a virus, and she would have no idea. This blew my mind. When I have a bug, I can feel it. The feeling is distinctive.
She was often unable to articulate her feelings. It was like the two sides of her brain didn't communicate.
And so I imagine her doing the harder, less pleasant, cruel things, this past year, with an almost serene detachment.
I remember the strange robot who sent me emails.
I remember reading an essay by a former stripper. She talked about the detachment she'd experience while on stage, how she'd "zone out" while she danced. It was a protective measure her brain took to keep her from fully experiencing the moment she was in.
I don't know SLH, just thinking about all the things we do, and how present we are when we do them. It was that WW who posted her side of the story today, and the IM conversation between the other BH and WW, got me thinking.
I don't know where I'm coming from. It was a long time ago when I read that article. Years and years.
I can easily imagine the detachment I'm trying to describe. It's somehow a familiar sensation to me. The feeling you get when you become emotionally separated from something you're doing, when your brain recognizes that the thing you're doing is going to damage you.
I wish I were more articulate right now. I think this detachment is an interesting subject.
You just described how I feel when I have sf with my H. Emotionally detached.
Or at least that is how I used to feel. Now just thinking about it makes me want to run screaming.
Things are so messed up .
He got a job, in town. He says he wants to stay out here and drive back and forth. I said why don't you just stay at ow's and save the gas money?
He said he doesn't want to .( Well I guess not. That would kind of make things awkward since her b/f doesn't know they are still seeing each other.)
He is pretending that he doesn't have the cell phone, and I am pretending that I don't know that he has it and that they talk to each other. (I am the only person who doesn't know that he still has it apparently.)
So it is still the lies and cake eating.
I keep hoping he will wake up and suddenly be sick of it all, the double life, the lies.
She seems to love all the sneaking around.
I have been going to the house and cleaning and fixing things so that I have a place to go when I get laid off this winter, but I am working on a contingency plan just in case. If he is still with her, I can't handle living with him.
And even if he isn't with her, that doesn't fix anything.
He has gone to the house to feed the dogs etc, but he asked if he could come here afterward. I told him I'm easy either way.
Why are you waiting to tell him you know about the phone?
Shul, I think you should get him out of your life, but I don't expect you will. I think it's a mistake, letting him do what he does. I worry that your DD will suffer terribly as an adult because of it.
I told him a week ago or so. He flatly denied it. Insisted that he doens't have the phone.
I know I should leave him alone, but I don't feel ready. Two weeks ago when he left ot stay at the house would have been the perfect time, but noooo....I had to go there, and of course I brought him food and let him have the car ( I bought myself a better one)and generally enable him.
In hindsight, if I had just Left Him Alone, he would have been broke, hungry and carless. He would have been destitute.
He would have had to go to ow, (which he doesnt' want to do), or own up to his lies and started treating me with respect.
But I am so stupid sometimes.
This week Beth is at camp, thank God.
She is so used to him not being around, from the years of working away, and she and I being on our own, that it is normal to her.
She was very happy that her room was finished, and she wanted to stay at the house every night before she left for camp.
I couldn't say no. She hadn't been home in nearly two years.
Hello All, Its been awhile since I have posted here. Here is an update on what I have found out..... (my original post...http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2735388&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1)
I got curious & went online to do a little web searching. I thought, let me see if there is anything out there. So I went online, to make a long story short, and found that my xWW(?) name was in a county public record data base.
I've always put a ? after xWW, because I was never fully sure that she was wayward. I suppose all the signs were there...but I was in denial. I know that some of you have stated that she definitely was involved in one.
After viewing the record I was saddened. It was a record dated 2 months after the D. Which btw I instigated due to her wanting a separation & NC. We were separated for 2 months before I filed.
Anyway it had her name & the name of the guy I long suspected as the OM. He was a guy she met in her night class a year ealier.
The record was for a property mortgage. So I suppose she had bought a mobile home (it was for $22k).
I never thought finding this sort of information would bother me. But it does. It hurts to the core.
I hate her even more now. Her friends knew this was going on way back when we first separated. I hate them too.
One question..... Should I contact the MC that xWW & I had, and tell him what really went on.
Background: In early 2003, we went to the only MC in our small town. He is psychologist that sees all sorts of people...children, drug addicts, etc. It seems that marriage counseling was just a small part of his practice. Anyway, we saw him once a week for about 8-9 months. I actually thought we were getting somewhere. BTW, we were initially going to MC for general problems...not b/c of an A. That happened later...after the MC ended.
It was during the MC, that my xW started acting odd. Like she was cold & distant...having a second life....going out all the time with friends... It was also during MC that I found some flirtatious notes she wrote to men that were in her same night class.
We ended the MC on a good note, at least I thought so. Then 2-3 months later (Jan 2004)...the bomb was dropped on me.
I filed for D in April 2004..Two months after that I find out that she had bought a mobile home with one of the guys that was in her night class. I suspected that there was something between them before.
I guess my question is, should I tell him what I have learned since all that? I want him to know that his methods of MC dont work. During our MC, he concentrated on things like family history, communication, etc. All good things I suppose, but way off the mark...cause look at the final results.
Yep Ive been to IC...a year ago. I know....I am still harboring all this. It is what it is....she had an affair.
It so hard to admit. Its like a failure. That I failed. My thinking is that I never thought it would happen to me....and it has.
I'm sorry...I've come a long way since all that happened.
I suppose deep down I want someone anyone...to confirm what I feel. To tell me that she obviously had an A. That it just makes sense. I'm slow but I'm almost there.
2L, if you are around I drove by your house today. (no I am not stalking you!) I was buying DD wedding shoes, looked up and saw the top of your abode. It is (in my hs lingo)bitchen!!!
Last. Night. I. Went. Out. With. My. Friend. And. Had. Too. Many. Beers. On. The. Way. Home. We. Were. Invited. Into. A. House. Where. A. Few. Friends. Were. Hanging. Out. And. Having. Drinks. I. Got. Home. At. Three. And. Now. I'm. At. Work.
Oh help me, please doctor, I'm damaged There's a pain where there once was a heart It's sleepin, it's a beatin', can't ya please tear it out And preserve it right there in that jar?
Oh help me, please mama, I'm sickenin' It's today that's the day of the plunge Oh the gal I'm to marry is a bow-legged sow I've been soakin' up drink like a sponge
"Don't ya worry, get dressed," cried my mother As she plied me with bourbon so sour Pull your socks up, put your suit on, comb your long hair down, For you will be wed in the hour
So help me, please doctor, I'm damaged There's a pain where there once was a heart I'm sleepin, it's a beatin', can't ya please take it out And preserve it right there in that jar?
FF, I'm fine, actually. A little sleep-deprived, but not so awful.
Today is my 11th wedding anniversary. I don't have any plans, but I 'xpect I'll do something social this evening.
A year ago today, I was absorbing the shock of July 26th, when a dirtbag in a rusty convertible served me sparrow's anniversary gift - divorce papers.
I sent her a not big, but very beautiful vase of flowers and a card. The card read,
-- Dear Sparrow,
Happy anniversary.
I didn't want you to think I'd forgotten, and I don't want this to be our last.
Love, GC --
I went out to eat alone, had a wonderful dinner, and went home.
I had mountains of hope that sparrow would not continue on her path. Over the next several weeks, I periodically sent her a card with a little joke or something inside. I sent her a four-leaf clover just before she left for a trip to Ireland with her grandmother.
She closed her heart to me absolutely, and never showed a sign that she would return.
We were happily married. My offenses against the sparrow were small offenses that I'll spend my life learning to avoid: benign neglect, independence, stubbornness, and selfishness. Her offenses against me were similarly small.
I'm sure she would say she was unhappy for a long time and that my callousness caused her love to erode.
I never knew, and she probably didn't notice until it was a crisis. The process was gradual and imperceptible. And when it led us into turmoil, she did the sparrow thing, just like she'd done in college when her efforts in a class began to slip.
She stopped coming to class, said to hell with it, this is a lost cause, and took the F.
She stopped coming to class, said to hell with it, this is a lost cause, and took the F.
That says a lot about her lack of personal growth in that area. Prayers and blessings to you on this day. I wish for it to someday just be a small blip on the radar screen. Do something nice for GC today, he deserves it.
For someone I loved to have an opportunity for growth and healing, and to have watched her instead choose her current path, fills me with sorrow, even now. I shouldn't feel sorry for her. I doubt she thinks about me.
I do declare, this anniversary was not as painful as the last.
Today, my band's CDs were delivered. They're packaged, shrink-wrapped, and ready to sell. It's done.
My friend Amelia said, "You have to start counting up. It's your 2nd sparrowless anniversary."
In the course of looking for information about this weeks Torah portion (in which Moses wreaks terrible vengeance on the Midians and has them slaughtered), I came across the aish.com web site. And whilst there, I found their relationship page. Among the interesting things there is a list of the ten things NOT to look for when getting married.
The first one? You married someone with great potential.
I'm pretty sure I made that error, though I had no idea I was making it at the time.
In other religion related news, I went to services last night and today I bought a beautiful illustrated Torah.
Best part of the day, though? A bike ride, me at the pedals and her in the seat behind. When we're on the bike, we can make it to TWO playgrounds in an hour. And DD loves the wind and the speed. Me? I'm in love with riding bikes. I have been since I was five years old.
Now I'm making barbecued chicken and couscous. Mmmmmmmmmmm. Life is gooooood.
I suppose that if I were an observant Jew, various aspects of that would be problematic (spending money on Shabbat, riding bicycles, cooking). Since I'm not even Jewish (yet, anyway), I'm not going to worry about it too much. DD and I have had a fantastic day.
J, I tried to find the things you wrote about, and couldn't.
I had a gig tonight. We opened for a JAM BAND. I don't like jam bands especially, but they were good. They played an awesome verion of "Loving Cup".
It was a little depressing, being in this bar full of pretty girls all in their little groups. I know I won't meet anyone in that environment, but there's something I like about it anyway. I don't even try to approach women in a setting like this. It's a horrible environment for that sorta thing.
Trouble is, it's what I know - places where bands are playing. Would you believe I've NEVER met a girl at a gig who wanted to give me the time of day?
GC is probably a little too cerebral for an environment like this.
Anyway, everything that's happening is making me think very hard about how I'm approaching my post-sparrow life.
I don't know any more if I should keep my house. I love it here. But it's holding me back. Working on the restoration is in the way of too many things - finishing my degree, having money and time to pursue any kind of leisure life, etc. Similarly, I like my job, I'm good at it, and I don't want to leave, but I've been there for six years and nothing has changed all that much about it.
I need to decide what's important, and I don't know right now. I think my attachment to my home is possibly not a good thing.
I feel I need something to change. I don't know how drastic it needs to be, but I don't like this equation.
Anyway, it's awfully late. I'm starting on a week's vacation, which I'll spend working feverishly on the house. Hopefully I'll achieve some real progress.
I need a coach, or a clue. I have a life, but the possibilities seem too limited.
I know that just changing your circumstances is not a cure for what ails ya. Yet, sometimes I wonder if a drastic shift would do me good.
Anyone ever play Defender, the video game? Well, I feel like hitting the "hyperspace" button.
Perhaps you need balance, GC? I mean, well. You've got 168 hours in every week. Have you thought about how you spend that time? How would you like to spend it? Restoration is fine for, 8 hours a week or something. If you're spending 40, then perhaps it would be wise to re-look it.
And attachment to a home is not a bad thing. It's kind of like a marriage, actually. Maybe you should commit to giving it 15 hours a week, including the "regular maintenance" (that would be housework) and the "date nights" (that would be the restoration work). More than that, however, and it's time to switch to doing something else.
I do understand the desire to travel lighter, though. I'm weighed down a -lot- by the addition of all the furniture and other stuff that entered my house in the last few weeks. I have literally hundreds of pounds of extra "stuff" now, and I have this tremendous desire to take a week of vacation and go through ever closet and cupboard in my house to pitch things. I'm doing it slowly instead, but it really is throwing me off.
J, you're right. I'm out of balance. It's part of a short-term goal, so I'll try not to make decisions or get too panicky until that goal is reached. Then I can figure out what to do.
I have two songs. First, a sad one, by the great Hank:
We met in the springtime when blossoms unfold The pastures were green and the meadows were gold Our love was in flower as summer grew on Her love like the leaves now has withered and gone
The roses have faded, there's frost at my door The birds in the morning don't sing anymore The grass in the valley is starting to die And out in the darkness the whippoorwills cry
Alone and forsaken by fate and by man Oh, lord, if you hear me please hold to my hand Oh, please understand
Oh, where has she gone to, oh, where can she be She may have forsaken some other like me She promised to honor, to love and obey Each vow was a plaything that she threw away
The darkness is falling, the sky has turned gray A hound in the distance is starting to bay I wonder, I wonder what she's thinking of Forsaken, forgotten, without any love
And the great Stevie Wonder - this tune can be interpreted as a rebound song, or even a cheater's song. From my POV, I think of it as a song to a not specific new person I haven't met yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Shattered dreams, worthless years Here am I encased inside a hollow shell Life began then was done Now I stare into a cold and empty well
The many sounds that meet our ears The sights our eyes behold Will open up our melting hearts And feed our empty souls
I believe when I fall in love with you it will be forever I believe when I fall in love this time it will be forever
Without despair we will share And the joys of caring will not be replaced What has been must never end And with the strength we have won't be erased
When the truths of love are planted firm They wont be hard to find And the words of love I speak to you Will echo in my mind
I believe when I fall in love with you it will be forever I believe when I fall in love this time it will be forever
I believe when I fall in love with you it will be forever
I just spent my first day of vacation. House. Plaster. Sandpaper. 90 degrees. Sweat! Gallons.
Feel strange. Sort of good. Don't know if all this work will pay off in a conventional way. I'll have done my best.
I took a few minutes out today for fun, something kooky. I took that Stevie Wonder song I posted last night and analyzed a little piece of its ending. I listened carefully to the vocal parts that repeat at the end. Three voices sing, all at once, all Stevie. They say, with different rhythms and melodies,
"I believe when I fall in love with you it will be forever." "I'm so glad that I found someone to believe in again." "God should answer my prayers"
These three voices are knitted together, tonally, lyrically, and rhythmically, in many, many ways. When you examine it in detail, the connections explode.
I could go on for pages about these four measures. These things are no accident, and form a thing of such beauty! I'd love to be able to create that kind of art.
AD tramps up with an armload of sticks, tosses them on the few remaining embers with a sigh, starts to fiddle with the fire, but thinks better of it, and walks away at a medium pace.
FF, this is the second weeklong vacation I've spent working. I'd rather have a real vacation, but this is satisfying. It's making my house nicer, which calms me more than any vacation would at this point. I'm still very concerned about losing it.
Well, GC if it brings you peace than that satisfies me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am just being the not as good as ss conscience right now. I will pray for you, I do often anyway.
Gosh I wish we all lived closer together. A laid-back dinner and some good convo would ford leagues for me right now.
I've been thinking a great deal about Resentment lately, and the strength with which it can hold onto a person even when we are struggling to put it aside. How it can temper every word out of our mouths with a steely grey brittleness, how it can color our actions into inactivity and render us immobile just as surely as if we were rooted to that spot. . . daring us to reach out a hand of compassion or concern.
Existance. Just so, and nothing more.
Lately I've had to stomp my feet and yell in order to be heard, even after the talks and ultimatums and such. It works for a time and then all progress dissipates back into the familiar lethargic tarpit. I'm wondering if it will always be like this, if I should suck it up, acknowledge that this is how things are, etc. Or make plans to flee.
FF, are you are living with this too? What do you do to get beyond it? Biblical quotes welcome too, hon. Something for me to meditate on.
I was once one of the least resentful, slowest to anger people I know, even after a childhood decidedly pock-marked with unhappiness and wanting. But after years of this marriage, being disappointed and then renewing my faith, and then facing more disappointments, I am starting to wake up and ask questions like, Why? And I know that road only leads to more of the same, but I can't help it.
I don't think any of us really knows the depths we are capable of until we've been there.
To tell you the truth SLH, I am tired. We are making slow progress and I have finally changed for me and God not H but doggone it I am tired! When do I get my rest?
Yeppers, I still have to get his attention or he would let us slide back into old habits. I can't do those anymore, KWIM? I am using POJA, I am using the concepts but more as protection for ME.
I think I have a bit farther to go than you, in terms of doing it for yourself and God. . . you have grown so much! But in some perverse, twisted way I find comfort that even when a person is trying their damndest to improve things, they just WILL NOT be improved. It's not just me, and my personal failure.
I'm sorry you're still dealing with this, bay.
And it's nobody's fault -- it's not worth pointing fingers. Not if you ever want to really heal. ::shrug::
. . . But resentment can grow and flourish in even the most uncultivated circumstances. I know.
part of me wants to join in and ditto how tired i feel.
part of me wants to see if i could instead take this opportunity to be an uplifting person. except in my current state of mind and body, i don't know how!!!
And it's nobody's fault -- it's not worth pointing fingers. Not if you ever want to really heal. ::shrug::
. . . But resentment can grow and flourish in even the most uncultivated circumstances. I know.
{{{{Love you, FF}}}}
Back at ya. Resentment, btw, is no longer an issue. I have realized how destructive that is and one of the many things that led to my own A. But I do hurt.
Do you know what is funny FL? On the day I am so discouraged and tired, God sends me someone to minister to. He knows far better than I his plans for me.
part of me wants to join in and ditto how tired i feel. . . part of me wants to see if i could instead take this opportunity to be an uplifting person. except in my current state of mind and body, i don't know how!!!. . . everything looks so depressing around here!!!
FLT2M, Join in, hon! I've come to the realization that it is MONDAY (lol). Maybe that has some bearing on our moods? Argh. I hate Mondays (tip hat to Karen Carpenter).
FF, I've never been prone to resentment before; not really. But I don't like it one bit. And I know that I am ripe for an affair, and believe me, I guard myself against that as much as possible (even to the extent of excluding myself from old friends with whom I would usually often do things in a group with).
So how did you slay the Resentment Dragon? I know the dangers, but the feeling lingers. . . and if you have pointers, please share them!
FF, i saw you step up to offer some email support. you are so nice. i want to help more but too often i fall back and say to myself, "who are you kidding??? help others? you are such a screw up exactly how do you think you can be of any help." and then i just feel isolated, i hate feeling isolated, and yet, isolate is exactly what i do to myself. now that does not make much sense, does it?
just like my eating, when i'm feeling down, i eat until i feel as unhealthy physically as i do emotionally.
but right now, i'm so tired of feeling unhealthy!!! i just want to wake up and be 18 again.
So how did you slay the Resentment Dragon? I know the dangers, but the feeling lingers. . . and if you have pointers, please share them!
A long time ago during my H's first A a very wise woman told me to drop the word deserve from my vocabulary. This struck such a cord with me that I am always uncomfortable when someone tells me I "deserve" anything. What is does is allows you to drop the whole entitlement issue.
But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that 1Tim 6:8
FL, isolation is the Devil's tool. Don't do it or buy into the you can't help stuff. I have seen you in action and you do help. As for the food...start again and again. No one says you have to be perfect.
FL said: i want to help more but too often i fall back and say to myself, "who are you kidding??? help others? you are such a screw up exactly how do you think you can be of any help." and then i just feel isolated, i hate feeling isolated, and yet, isolate is exactly what i do to myself. now that does not make much sense, does it?
I know the isolation, FL. Why are we so prone to self-imprisonment, and punishing ourselves?
You have such a unique position on things, and so much to share, however. There aren't as many FWSs as BSs and so you can provide a unique outlook on some people's sitchs. So many people need that input!
FF said A long time ago during my H's first A a very wise woman told me to drop the word deserve from my vocabulary. This struck such a cord with me that I am always uncomfortable when someone tells me I "deserve" anything. What is does is allows you to drop the whole entitlement issue.
FF, this is exactly what I needed to hear today. Maybe I do sound like I am "entitled" to something. will you call me on it when you see it rearing its ugly head?
You know, I visited some old friends while we were traveling, and it was really nice to see them, and spend time with them. It feels like that to be back here.
CSue, Did you already tell your story about camp? If so, I'll look for it.
Faithful, vacation was good. It will be over 110 degrees here today, there was frost on the car one moring at Yellowstone park - I kind of liked it.
I have been thinking about you guys, but I have learned that it is hard to "catch up." (thanks Gray, I still chuckle about it.)
As soon as I get lunch out of the microwave, I'll see what I can remember about my thoughts.
SLH - ok, you have seriously cracked me up, you really thought today was monday or are you pulling our legs???
FF - i am trying, see i am saying hi to you guys today. it's got to be the meds, i was being weaned off it, then i had a lot of dizziness happening so dr had me take some again, which immediately effected my face (rash) again (one of the reasons we were taking me off them).
i want to just hide out somewhere and cry. i know i cannot choose to do that cuz when i do that i just fall deeper into depression hole and i seriously don't want to go there anymore!!! right now i just cannot imagine my life is ever going to be stable again. and then i start to thinking about how unfair life has been cuz it's NEVER been stable. and that's when i know i need to just STOP that kind of thinking. i just cannot seem to stop if for very long.
and i am being so completely unproductive at work and it's going to catch up to me and that is stressing me out too.
ok, i read this post and say... you would be better off not posting this and just isolating cuz at least then you are not a burdon!!! i'm really tired of being a burdon.
You have such a unique position on things, and so much to share, however. There aren't as many FWSs as BSs and so you can provide a unique outlook on some people's sitchs. So many people need that input!
i was not the typical WS though... i suppose the A with the fellow student while engaged was, as was the A with the co-working in 1991 was but that was all so long ago.
the stuff i did between 7/2001-11/2003, that was not your typical WS. it was so much sicker and i absoultey HATE the stuff i did and the person i was. but so much scarier is the thought that i could be just one slip away from falling just as deep into it if not worse. i cannot imagine having the strength to pick myself up again.
anyone ever see leaving lost vegas with nicholas cage. it was a depressing movie, early on you just knew he would end up killing himself and after a while i just sat there thinking just get it over with already.
sometimes i feel that way about me. i just know i'm not really recovering at all. and i am going to fall again someday. and when i do it will be the end of me, so i should just get it over with already.
ok, i realize that all sounds mighty dramatic but it really is how i am feeling right now.
SLH - ok, you have seriously cracked me up, you really thought today was monday or are you pulling our legs???
I really thought it was Monday! Pathetic, huh? If I could have something to look forward to, to be excited about, then maybe I could better keep track of my days, but they all seem to blend into eachother. . .
FL, what meds are you on? Have you been on any others?
right now i just cannot imagine my life is ever going to be stable again. and then i start to thinking about how unfair life has been cuz it's NEVER been stable. and that's when i know i need to just STOP that kind of thinking.
FL, I know what you mean, hon. I've been there. That's why I am worried about starting to ask questions like "Why?" because if I do, and then truly give my life a good hard stare, I will be supremely disappointed. Stable? Happy? Fulfilling? What's that? And THAT's what leads to resentment, despair and depression.
(That's not saying that my M has been always been unhappy -- just that things -- gosh, almost EVERYTHING -- has been an uphill battle for me from day one. I would like just ONE THING to go right for us, sometimes, you know?)
There has got to be a productive way to deal with these feelings without falling apart or just sweeping them all under the rug (where there is already a mound growing).
You're not a burden, FL. we are all leaning on eachother, learning and growing, however slowly. I'm so glad I have a place to go to and friends to talk with like I do here.
FF, you say you are tired, and I see that. But I am also struck by the amount of strength and determination in your posts, and it heartens me. No matter what happens, I know you are going to be okay, luv.
and i am being so completely unproductive at work and it's going to catch up to me and that is stressing me out too.
ok, i read this post and say... you would be better off not posting this and just isolating cuz at least then you are not a burdon!!! i'm really tired of being a burdon.
FL, you are not a burden. We are here for each other ok? As for work, stop stressing and just do as much as you are capable of today. {{{FL}}}
I decided to wait until you came back to talk about camp!
We did Yellowstone for vacation 3 years ago. We need to go back again....because we didn't see it all!
CSue,
Pictures, woman, pictures! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Some of us have to live vicariously through the lives of others for a little excitement! Can you post some of yours for us, or tell us about your time there?
FF, you say you are tired, and I see that. But I am also struck by the amount of strength and determination in your posts, and it heartens me. No matter what happens, I know you are going to be okay, luv.
Thank you, SLH. I do feel strong but I am tired. I want to lay down my burdens and rest.
On Soylent Green - would it help if I said "We've got to tell the exchange!"
Gray, I admit, I have done a lot of thinking about you.
Everyone searches for what you are searching for. Peace of mind. Well, I suppose there is more to it than that. That is a kind of simplistic way of putting it.
Do you believe there is an answer?
Do you have direction?
In fact, I think that is what most here on MB are looking for. Direction. Most have energy, but don't know what to do with it.
Shoot, I am kind of sitting here thinking, but I should probably type more.
Gray, It may take you some time, but I keep thinking you'll find what you are looking for.
I was wondering if you would come west again, in fact, I was wanting to spend a day or two with you, but mostly because I just like you, so It was kind of a selfish reason.
It is good to get work done on the house, and I have done that before, (as a vacation) but it's also good to change your surroundings and let your mind wander different paths. I hope you get to do that too.
Now, where was I, I had someone come into my office, and lost my train of thought.
Faithful, If you had hope - if you KNEW he was in it with all his heart, if things were getting better and you could measure progress, you would be happy, and you would have energy to continue.
I have to think that you are afraid it will not change, and I think that makes you tired.
Have you had a date yet? How about that lunch date?
Remember, that the things that you long for are often not the things he longs for. Can you do a trade, so you do one date that you drool over, and do one that he would be excited about - you know, you scratch my back, I'll sctatch yours? (that gives me ideas, but I should probably keep quiet.)
I have faith in you, and I really think you will make this, but I want it to be a little easier for you. Has he done anything to give you hope this last week?
CSue, I want to hear all about it. I'll trade you, I'll tell mine, if you'll tell yours.
SLH, I'll tell all about it, but first, you tell me why you are still having trouble trusting him, (as far as spending time with you) and why you still doubt.
2long, you are still pretty quiet.
Just J, I'm still thinking. I wish I could help more.
If you had hope - you would be happy, and you would have energy to continue
ok, i do realize you were not actually talking to me but... thanks, i needed to hear that that is exactly what i let go of when i get like this: hope.
time to pick myself up, stop coping out by beating myself up and get back in the game "engage damm it, engage". anyone going to tell me the movie that line is from?? no one ever got the one from yesterday in iville... "boys talk too much" (although the actual line in the movie is one word different than what i typed). bonus points if you can figure out the word <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
FL, There is always hope, always. Sometimes we hope for things that will not be, but we can change our hopes, and we can actually come to have joy in the way things do turn out, as opposed to the way we want them to turn out.
I think FF and SLH should have lots of hope for happy marriages. I don't know your story enough to know for you.
Kimmy, what about you?
Weaver, Thought a lot about you too. You have so much going for you, so much talent, so much to like. I continue to be impressed.
Shoot, lunch is long over. Maybe boys do talk too much.
Faithful, If you had hope - if you KNEW he was in it with all his heart, if things were getting better and you could measure progress, you would be happy, and you would have energy to continue.
I have to think that you are afraid it will not change, and I think that makes you tired.
Have you had a date yet? How about that lunch date?
Remember, that the things that you long for are often not the things he longs for. Can you do a trade, so you do one date that you drool over, and do one that he would be excited about - you know, you scratch my back, I'll sctatch yours? (that gives me ideas, but I should probably keep quiet.)
I have faith in you, and I really think you will make this, but I want it to be a little easier for you. Has he done anything to give you hope this last week?
Nope, no date and no lunch date. Wedding last weekend took all of my time and energy but at least it is behind us now. Lunch date? No, not that either. He is stressed by his job, ss and doesn't have much to give me right now. He leans on me a lot and it leaves me floundering sometimes. I don't see him doing much to help in the recovery process but then he has been willing to listen to me and try to implement my ideas. He is trying harder with the kids and even went along with my "no TV for the month of August" stance. More family time and conversation that way. TV is a great avoider in our house. He is still a major CA and not just with me but everyone. Still not putting our family first but acknowledging his weaknesses. I don't know how does it sound to you?
wow, i'm very impressed!!! (how about "engage damn it engage"? i think that is the quote anyway...)
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There is always hope, always. Sometimes we hope for things that will not be, but we can change our hopes, and we can actually come to have joy in the way things do turn out, as opposed to the way we want them to turn out.
I think FF and SLH should have lots of hope for happy marriages. I don't know your story enough to know for you.
well i don't know your story either but i do know mine and i do know my H really is wanting our marriage to survive and he is backing that up with actions too. it's just going to take a while still. i let fear get to me, that he is side stepping everything cuz it is too painful and we will survive but not become close. and that is exactly where hope needs to come in. thanks.
FF, no tv for a month!!! that is huge!!! i'ld pay mega $$ for that!!!! so would my daughter!! so when the tv is off, what you going to do instead? you know my answer... BACKGAMMON!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but seriously, find some fun activity, don't let the month get by too quickly. what a great opportunity for a new habit to start.
FF, no tv for a month!!! that is huge!!! i'ld pay mega $$ for that!!!! so would my daughter!! so when the tv is off, what you going to do instead? you know my answer... BACKGAMMON!!! but seriously, find some fun activity, don't let the month get by too quickly. what a great opportunity for a new habit to start.
Well tonight we are going to start reading the 1st Harry Potter book outloud. We can watch the occassional DVD too. I will pick up some new boardgames to try out as well. Not sure about backgammon as neither of us play it.
If you had hope - if you KNEW he was in it with all his heart, if things were getting better and you could measure progress, you would be happy, and you would have energy to continue.
I have to think that you are afraid it will not change, and I think that makes you tired.
This is the same for me, too, SS.
SS, things were changing. . . and then stopped. Same old same old.
Somehow I thought that the seriousness of our last conversation – the fact that I would be taking to the foothills if he couldn’t display some serious effort – would have enabled him to at least work on our M. Not so.
I have been trying to be a wonderful wife, loving, sensitive, kind. I tell him that I love him all the time. I thank him with words & affection for being my husband. I ask what I can do for him.
This weekend I blew it. I was tired of trying to be strong for us both only to see no indication of anything on his part, still. I was weary from daily expressing my love, only to have him answer an unenthusiastic “Mmmmm-hmmmm,” to my ILYs. I was sick of him not being motivated to do ANYTHING, even take responsibility of the girls occasionally.
Another argument. Without wanting to sound “threatening”, I tried to remind him that I couldn’t do this – “THIS” being put forth ALL of the effort, all the time – forever. I told him he seemed to rather being alone than to work on our problems together, as a couple. I reiterated that I LOVED HIM and that we should be dealing with these things TOGETHER. I underlined that working on things alone was not the way to deal with our problems, but if this really what he wanted, and if things continued on as they were, this was what he would get.
In anger he says, “Why don’t you say what you really mean, and stop threatening me with it. Just say it.”
So I did. And this was the only time (aside from that last big convo) where it was mentioned. This is NOT something I beat him over the head or threaten him with.)
Then he says, “So go, already! Run! Run, Michelle, Run!” and storms out of the room.
I am aghast. “Running” was never what I had implied. “Protecting myself” is, and he knows this.
As usual, I had to pursue him out of the room, to continue the conversation. No way was I letting THAT be the last word.
“Why on earth are you acting like this?” I ask, knowing full well that there is only exasperation and anger in my voice, not concern.
“Maybe because I am tired,” he says. “Maybe because I am old and tired and sick and broken.”
!!!!! He is only 39! How can we both feel like this???
Our entire married lives have been one struggle. From the day we got married (I had gotten pg the month before) and we were on all kinds of financial aid, until now, it has always been a struggle, financially. We are not spendthrifts, we have gone without many nice things (vacations, new cars, "toys", etc – heck, we don’t even buy Christmas or Birthday gifts for eachother because they cost too much, just the kids!) but we are still taking on more water than we are baling out. I *know* what it is like to be “tired”. And yet I have tried and am still trying for our M.
And that, my friends, is the crux of our problem. He is depressed. He has too much on his plate and now, having to deal with me, “makes it even more overwhelming”.
*Bills (including a $500 electric bill; we know not why and don’t have the $ to have looked into, but our SAHM’ neighbor’s is $120). *Our house, falling apart as we speak (leaking plumbing, H2O bubbling up under the foundation; the reason FOR the $500 elec bill, awful wiring, etc) *Not even being able to afford all of our prescriptions (ADs included), just the kids. No time for ourselves, for our marriage. *No ability to get away, if even for a date (we have small children)
When we DO have a few moments together to enjoy eachother, we are so wrapped up in our own miseries and inability to deal with them that we cannot enjoy the moment.
But can I get him to look elsewhere for another job, even in another city, anything to IMPROVE things? No. Those rare moments when he is not putting some fire out at our house, he is too depressed to want to do anything towards improving things. And the sad thing is, I understand that. Lately I don’t feel like doing anything either. I don’t know how we function.
I will say that this last argument ENDED well – he realizes this and that, promises to work on changes, etc. But then he always says this, doesn’t he? And we always end up back where we were.
So unless I am committed to bludgeoning my head against his walls each and every time he erects them in order to get thru to the man, it looks like I have lost.
Part of me wants to hang on -- a big part of me. But then I look at myself in five years -- just like I did five years Past, and wonder if I will be in the same miserable place, or if he will have woken up. Am I selfish for feeling like I DESERVE more? (Help me, FF!) That my life is rushing past me and I am just standing here, immobilized by the very thing I love?
Will I regret staying, with so little effort from Him?
It is sad, but I think money would solve many of our problems. And no, NOT the lottery, just enough to pay the freakin' bills; to get by. To not have to worry about the electricity being cut off again, or how we are going to afford to bring the youngest to the doc for her UTI, or where we are going to get the surprise $50 copay for her Rx.
I realize everyone has problems -- just different ones, so I don't know how to measure the seriousness of this. I only know that I am desperately tired of this all.
Well tonight we are going to start reading the 1st Harry Potter book outloud. We can watch the occassional DVD too. I will pick up some new boardgames to try out as well. Not sure about backgammon as neither of us play it.
What a wonderful idea -- I love board games and cards and such. Maybe my oldest would humor me. I've gotten her to play Scrabble, Connect Four and Battleship with me on occassion. . .
*Bills (including a $500 electric bill; we know not why and don’t have the $ to have looked into, but our SAHM’ neighbor’s is $120). *Our house, falling apart as we speak (leaking plumbing, H2O bubbling up under the foundation; the reason FOR the $500 elec bill, awful wiring, etc) *Not even being able to afford all of our prescriptions (ADs included), just the kids. No time for ourselves, for our marriage. *No ability to get away, if even for a date (we have small children)
Can you whittle away at this stuff a little at a time? You know how they recommend when you have too much credit card debt to start paying more toward the smallest one until it is paid off and then the next one and so on? Can the two of you work together to take this approach? maybe I am being too simplistic, if I am I apologize.
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But can I get him to look elsewhere for another job, even in another city, anything to IMPROVE things? No. Those rare moments when he is not putting some fire out at our house, he is too depressed to want to do anything towards improving things. And the sad thing is, I understand that. Lately I don’t feel like doing anything either. I don’t know how we function
It is so very hard to make big changes when you are depressed.
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“Why on earth are you acting like this?” I ask, knowing full well that there is only exasperation and anger in my voice, not concern.
“Maybe because I am tired,” he says. “Maybe because I am old and tired and sick and broken.”
!!!!! He is only 39! How can we both feel like this???
That has been my H in a nutshell. Tired, depressed and broken at age 40.
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So unless I am committed to bludgeoning my head against his walls each and every time he erects them in order to get thru to the man, it looks like I have lost.
Part of me wants to hang on -- a big part of me. But then I look at myself in five years -- just like I did five years Past, and wonder if I will be in the same miserable place, or if he will have woken up. Am I selfish for feeling like I DESERVE more? (Help me, FF!) That my life is rushing past me and I am just standing here, immobilized by the very thing I love?
Will I regret staying, with so little effort from Him?
Drop the deserve for a moment SLH and look at this from another POV. What do your kids deserve? Not trying to be harsh, just looking at it differently. How will you feel about yourself if you give it your all and show your kids what true commitment means? I am not advocating staying when there is abuse or intolerable situations, I am saying you will not regret giving them the best chance possible for an intact household. Money will be tighter on a two household budget as well. Just food for thought. You are in my prayers.
SLH, I acknowledge that I don't have all the answers, but......... I still have hope for you. I admit I have been wrong.......... but I still have hope for you.
Thanks for the update, I really wanted to know. I am operating under deadline at work right now, and I am not sure how much time I will have to talk these next few days. I hate it when I prime the pump and then leave while the water is running - but if I put a 5000 gal stock tank under it, maybe it will catch enough to swim through later.
We rode horses on our trip. Horses trained by a man that loves horses. Went with him actually - my friend from long ago.
"Man should not live where dogs do not bark, and horses do not neigh." Old Jewish proverb.
Remember what Jesus said: "Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." In that one sentence, is all the hope in the world. Do you feel it?
I still pray for you and Casey, and I include you in my gratitude journal, because you mean the world to me. I just started keeping this journal two days ago, but I am committed for the next two months to journal what I am grateful for, and you and all the people I love here are among those things.
FF, you have shown me what it means to be a truly beautiful person, and I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
My advice to you is to work on detachment...show loving indifferance as much as you can. And to "act as if" your marriage is already what you want it to be. Please do not push him right now, just accept that this is "what it is", for now, and know that with no pressure, he will come around and be all that you remember and dream of.
It only takes one to change the dynamics of a relationship... if you change the relationship will change. So you be what you want it to be, and he will follow.
He will sway in and out like the tide, but you will be the bright and shining beacon acting with loving indifferance. You be steady and strong, let him have this time of flakiness, knowing that it is temporary. He needs to feel safe right now.
Drop the deserve for a moment SLH and look at this from another POV. What do your kids deserve? Not trying to be harsh, just looking at it differently. How will you feel about yourself if you give it your all and show your kids what true commitment means?
FF, you are never harsh, and I hope you would always call something if you see it in my sitch! Thank you for addressing it.
Honestly, this (the kids) is the only thing that has kept me going some days. But at the same time, I have to wonder how much of a good mother am I being to my babies if I am angry, defeated, bitter, and withdrawn all the time. And then when I try to address those issues, I get slapped down? What kind of home life is that for them, without a happy, fulfilled mother?
Honestly, I don't know.
But, in the theme of our Mood Swings, H's motivation has been high today. He's stuck to his schedule, helped me finish Juliet's room (sans the 1 YARD of border i didn't account for, lol -- I will include pics soon!), saw I was struggling with mowing the lawn in the heat and asked if he could finish for me, got dinner for us, etc.
Well tonight we are going to start reading the 1st Harry Potter book outloud. We can watch the occassional DVD too. I will pick up some new boardgames to try out as well. Not sure about backgammon as neither of us play it.
GO FF!!! that is excellent. now be sure to have some of the activities be grown up stuff (and no, i'm NOT talking about "ahem")
It only takes one to change the dynamics of a relationship... if you change the relationship will change. So you be what you want it to be, and he will follow.
He will sway in and out like the tide, but you will be the bright and shining beacon acting with loving indifferance. You be steady and strong, let him have this time of flakiness, knowing that it is temporary. He needs to feel safe right now.
Does that make sense?
Heck yes! Wow, Weaver I was sad today and what happens? You and SS both show up! I pray for you too. I am listening Weaver and doing much better, really I am.
SS, thank you for the compliment. I appreciate it coming from you.
SLH, IMVHO you have the choice to be an angry and bitter mother or be the person your kids and your H need you to be. I know it is hard work, but the rewards are immense too. I would like to suggest though that you find time for fun. You and your H need couple time or you will never reconnect. Get your in laws to at least come stay a weekend with the kids so you and Ti can get away from the day to day pressure. {{SLH}}
Can you whittle away at this stuff a little at a time? You know how they recommend when you have too much credit card debt to start paying more toward the smallest one until it is paid off and then the next one and so on?
see http://www.debtsmart.com Oh, and you should pay down the one with the highest interest rate first, no matter which is smallest.
It's not really credit cards, AD. It's sheer cost of living in this area, and not having a safety net. If ONLY it were credit cards, I could handle it!! But it's basic bills for living -- and if you can't make those one month due to an emergency (broken A/C, hospital trip, 4 unexpected prescriptions at $50/apiece) the hemhorrage begins, and gets worse as the months go by. That's where we're at now.
We are trying to work with them, but they can be real ba$+ards about wanting everything in full.
This is what we get for trying to make the "right" choice to put our kids in great schools that have programs for their needs/gifts. It's not like we are living it up in a huge house with all kinds of amenities -- our house was built in the 60's, needs tons of work, etc -- but the property values out here are ridiculous ($99,5 for this place, and it's old and small). We paid I think $2800/year in taxes on this house last year (for the schools) and it is only going to go up, because Texas is taxing the "affluent" cities in order to have more money to pump into the poorer schools in other TX cities. It's called the Robin Hood effect and it is twisted for people like H and I, who are just scraping by in order to put our kids in the best schools for them.
At this point, I want to try to fix up the house and sell out, because even our kids' education isn't worth their parents' divorce. I want to move somewhere less expensive, even if it menas changing jobs and moving out of state. But getting H to acknowledge that is like pulling teeth. He's too depressed to do anything right now. And it breaks my heart, because he fought for so hard for so long. . .
At this point, I want to try to fix up the house and sell out, because even our kids' education isn't worth their parents' divorce. I want to move somewhere less expensive, even if it menas changing jobs and moving out of state. But getting H to acknowledge that is like pulling teeth. He's too depressed to do anything right now. And it breaks my heart, because he fought for so hard for so long. . .
This just makes me so sad, SLH. My H has been chronically depressed for about 5 years now. He is better than before but has talked many times about wanting to die and not caring if he got sick. Can you convince Ti to get a full physical and possibly AD's? He needs help. I agree selling and living somewhere cheaper would take the pressure off of both of you and possibly improve Ti's depression as well.
GC, deserve is a word that I am not too comfortable with. I would say everyone is capable of making their own happiness. You have been traumatized, it will take a while to heal and then happiness will find you again. You are a good man with excellent morals and values. People love you and are attracted to your light. You will be happy again.
Has anyone read the book by Dennis Prager called Happiness is a real problem or something like that? I bought it a while ago for my H but he never read it. See he made a deliberate choice not to be happy. He (I think)is working on that now.
I don't think Faithful meant "Deserving" happiness is bad or evil, GC.
I think what she meant was that, (especially in cases such as mine) when someone thinks they "deserve" something, it also translates into "Entitlement", which is a relationship's Death Knell sure as an arrow to the heart.
It's a breeding ground for all of the things I mentioned earlier -- bitterness, resentment, defeat, etc.
I KNOW this, mentally, but struggling to overcome it emotionally is a different matter enitrely. But I will continue to try.
FF, I will try to find time for fun. I haven't seen my horse in weeks (a friend of mine keeps him out on her property, which is far from here and the ridiculous property values/taxes) so maybe I will head out there tonight, provided it doesn't rain.
He is my one cheap thrill! (and he really is cheap; horses don't have to be expensive). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I guess sometimes the trouble with these "deserve/entitlement" sorts of debates is the different ways we interpret our language.
Maybe the best way to put it is that we all have the right to pursue happiness, despite what certain of our legislators think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />. Can you find a way to achieve it regardless of your partner's presence, or actions? I don't know for sure, but I think so.
SLH, with a good family and basic needs satisfied, your children are likely to thrive no matter what school they're in.
I think Ti's depression is wrong-headed! He feels like he has somehow failed if he is unable to keep the children in a place with the best schools, right?
But the larger success he seeks is happy, successful children. He has made the sacred great schools the priority that trumps all others, and that view is out of balance. Those schools are no good to your kids if other parts of their lives are lacking, like, say, if their parents are unhappy.
I believe you need to relocate to a place you can afford, and yesterday.
Last night I fired up my XP partition so I could watch the piece on EAs from yesterday's Today show.
Unable to resist temptation, I watched an interview with a woman who did a piece on Jennifer Aniston for Vanity Fair.
Aniston told the interviewer she chooses to believe her H when he says there was no hanky-panky before the D was filed. I don't understand why that makes much difference, but anyway...
It seems apparent that Aniston is taking the high road in every respect. At least according to "Hollywood press" information.
The interviewer said that Aniston and her H had different views on marriage. Aniston said that it was a lifelong commitment. Pit said that as long as it was good, he was in it. [censored].
Okay, I'm just trying to avoid my task. Who could blame me? It's 90 degrees in my house and I'm about to paint a ceiling. This is gonna hurt.
I use Macs, and I couldn't get the EA interview 2 work. Do you know if they have transcripts somewhere? (see my thread about the subject, and other news...)
Oh, it's too good to be true. The temperature is dropping and I just heard thunder. The wave is broken! I've been working in a 90-degree house for four days.
Tomorrow my parents are coming to paint my bedroom. Aren't they swell? My aunt is sending them with a huge box of fresh vegetables from her garden. While they paint, I'll clean the house and get the yard into shape.
I'm not done for the night, but I think this storm calls for a few minutes by the fire. Wish I ate hot dogs!
Come on Graycloud! Have you seen that movie "Uptown Girls?" The little girl won't eat a hot dog...and finally she takes a bite and Britney Murphy screams...."SHE LIVES!" Hey, I've been eating them all my life and look at me......well, on second thought, look at all the other people eating hot dogs! I'm fine....just look a little stressed! WHY>>>>>>>>>>>> I AM STRESSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have an Oscar Mayer, and let's see what happens!!!! Besides, you'll have all those good veges from the garden to help! hehehe
My father is like that -- will drop anything to help one of us. I never cease to appreciate his love and commitment to us. I hope that the others he helps appreciate him, too.
The middle one has disappeared into newleywedland. He's bonding quite a lot with his in-laws, which is both good and bad - it hurts my parents a little, 'cause they feel taken for granted and made the second fiddle.
The oldest one has just broken up with his GF. They went out for about six months. He's building his house all on his own. He's got 1000 projects to finish and no time. I'm a little like him that way, but I have a much lower threshold for the chaos. He seems to be okay though. He calls me at night sometimes and just talks and talks and talks. Just like Mom! Except she doesn't put me on speaker and eat dinner and pound nails while she talks to me.
LOL, FF. Are you the oldest, too? I am and I think that's just how we get things done -- all at once. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Y'all should see me on the phone, cooking dinner and typing out messages on the board while pointing out mistakes in DDs homework. Multi-tasking at it's best!
GC, it rained yesterday evening so I didn't go, but I plan on seeing my pony tonight. I've heard he's now a brown horse (all that mud! -- he's usually white, if you haven't seen the pics) so he desperately needs a bath. He loves when I bathe and groom him -- his ears have a tendency to lop over, his eyes half shut, and his bottom lip hangs in relaxation. LOL. Hardly the regal white steed, but I love him!
SLH, I am the youngest girl and third child in the family but was on my own more or less at an early age. I have always worked and just can't sit and do one thing at a time.
Hi SS, I am ok. Sometimes out of the rough stuff comes good. Had a rough spot and it forced my H and I to deal with the hurt of my A again. We had not dealt with it too much cuz he was still caught up in his at the time. Turned out ok and he stood strong for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I hold my face between my hands no I am not crying I hold my face between my hands to keep my loneliness warm two hands protecting two hands nourishing two hands to prevent my soul from leaving me in anger
I just want to wish you all a good day. GC, glad it went well. I am finishing laundry and errands then will head out to Toluca Lake to meet the MB'ers! Woo Hoo!!! I just spoke to B on the phone, she sounds so cool.
Hi y'all!! Beer and weiners? I'm in the mood for MEXICAN!! Anyone for 'Ritas?
So I've almost finished the bloody room!
Remember my battle with the Liquid Nail-encrusted walls, the groovy wallpaper mural, the debacle with the joint compound, our "Floating is Fun" days, the MORE texturing, and finally the painting (oh, wait, I didn't share the joys of painting with a 3 y.o . . . trust me, you're not missing too much!)? Then we learned to apply crown molding along a distictly sagging ceiling and do the same with wallpaper border, whilst avoiding numerous wrinkles and too much of a gap between paper and said ceiling. Yech.
We still have to buy new wooden frames for the door, the closet, and the window, as the ones before were plastic and (horror!) faux wood brown. And one day I'll have to do something about the plaster and the paint on the carpet. . . but that's money and time I don't have now. In any event, what do y'all think?
VERY Horsie, no? I spent the whole day sewing that comforter/bedspread for her as well as making the curtains and pillowcases/pillows. I know it's kind of equine overkill, but it's a 5 y.o little-girl-horse-lover's dream. And anything beats those walls she had with holes and all!
Gray, how is your room coming along?
Now I'm off to cook supper and then take a load off!
My room looks gooooood. I had a plan for paint colors. On the way to the paint store I decided to abandon my plan. Got there and just improvised. Still lots to do with the trim, but it's looking good. My walls are free of holes and crumbling plaster, and now painted. I can hardly believe it.
Had a real fire tonight at my friend's house. A local brewery is having a contest for one-minute videos set to original music, and the other two guys in the band put something together with a friend of ours. We shot it this afternoon and evening. An excuse to hang out and drink beer for about eight hours. Hooh.
Water... water...
It is good to hear from you NCW. Sorry about not answering those messages...
My time off is over. I did well. Not as much as I'd hoped, but for the first five days at least, I only rested to catch my breath and drink water.
This week: finish refurbishing my fireplace and get ready to put back the crown in my living room. That is going to be an EVENT. I can hardly wait.
For the first time in a while, I feel there's a chance I'll have my house ready in time for the refi.
In other news... I still think about the sparrow all the time. Not sure where I am in the process. Still, 14 months after she left, 14 months after her affair became a fully-fledged bloodbath, still I hold my face between my hands.
Not that I have a choice in the matter right now - nobody is beating down my door - but what would be the harm in a rebound at this point?
I think the larger question is, what specifically are the reasons for not dating right away after a divorce? The old saw of "you haven't healed yet" is too vague. Where would I go wrong if I met and started seeing someone right now?
Would I just be less choosy? Would I instinctively keep someone at arm's length? What?
what specifically are the reasons for not dating right away after a divorce? The old saw of "you haven't healed yet" is too vague. Where would I go wrong if I met and started seeing someone right now?
Would I just be less choosy? Would I instinctively keep someone at arm's length? What?
On the "don't rebound" advice, I can give on example - others will chime in with other reasons.
A lady we know got involved with a man who was "divorcing" - which turned out to mean that his wife moved in with some other guy. But, "divorcing" is nothing. You are either married or you are not. He was married. Our friend became "with child". He was still married. He finally did get D'd, but was legally promibited (in our state) from marrying for 60 days. So, they married (at the courthouse) in March, and the baby was born last week.
Because her BF got a little ahead of himself, our friend (never previously married) missed out on the big wedding, the baby showers - and a lot of the things that newly married folks normally enjoy. He, obviously, was in a rebound. He may wake up one of these days and realize that he has made a terrible error - but he'd better stick with her anyway!
In a rebound state, you are like a man who has been beaten and left in the desert to starve. He stumbles in out of the desert and you could give him water out of a puddle and some leftover dog food and he would eat and drink.
A few weeks later, he would be utterly repulsed by that offering.
AD, I kinda liked that analogy; I am utterly terrified of getting into a rebound relationship without experiencing and embracing all the pros and cons of the single life first. I don't "trust" my feelings. Having said that I do trust my discipline and I will be dating immediately post D.
GC....glad to hear the house is coming together for you. A focus apart from the carnage that is the affair is likely a much needed distraction. I can no longer grieve my marriage. I accept my STBXW has become a product of her decisions and I no longer wish to de associated to such a person, or as little as I can be given we share the parenting of 2 children.
I always treasure the insight and your introspective musings on this thread. You've also turned me onto Coldplay and I now consider myself a "fan". Ah well....back to packing for another trip to the cabin. I'm off work for the month with the kids.
A month! That's great. I'm starting to play with some real vacation plans for the future myself. Outdoory stuff, mostly.
I plan to date right away too, or at least try. All the drop-dead calendar dates I considered last summer have come and gone. The unfinished D is the only thing. I think there's a good chance I'll hear something this week.
Have a great time, Binder. Solitude! What kind of comforts do you have at the cabin? Do much reading up there?
GC....I was in a 3 year "high school" romance, and met my husband on the rebound. It has lasted 30 years, but now we're also in the midst of turmoil. I say, "When you're divorced, you're free. Until then, stay away and stay close to your friends." Why? You made a vow that Sparrow broke, and you are BETTER than that. In the grand scheme of life, it's a good time to for you to understand YOU...that's what I"m trying to do right now and we've only been separated a week! (ALL I keep thinking about and worrying about is HIM! How WEIRD am I???) Hey...it's time to learn why we're that way, and I think this is THE time for self-awareness...and for taking care of yourself. (...and redecorating!)
Did that answer your question? Or did I just give a sermonette?
Yes GC....that's all that's left for me too. She's starting to balk at the agreement now though in spite of the fact she signed it under the guidance of competent counsel. Too bad dear, don't get to see your kids on any weekends eh?
The cabin is still much unfinished as my financial situation has altered somewhat in the last 20 mos. It's log, 780 ft. sq. on the main floor with a 1/2 loft and a walkout basement. No wiring or plumbing yet. I've rigged a shower out of an old 20 lb. propane tank that I’ve retrofitted with some fittings. It gets heated over the fire (always looks scary to see a propane tank over a fire) and pressurized with a compressor. Hot showers every day if we want them! There is electricity to the site, just nothing in the cabin yet.
Reading? Barely any time looking after the kids and setting up, and down and cleaning up after them. I drop into my sleeping bag at the end of the day. Once I get it to a turnkey operation, I hope to have a little more leisure time out there.
The mountains are great; I do miss the rocky lakes of the shield country in your neck of the woods though. I used to live in Manitoba for a few years. I had never seen lakes like that before. Gorgeous.
Time to begin your NEW life! Hope you keep redecorating, and have fun with it. (Lots of work though!) I can't help but think you're going to be more particular and a LOT more careful about who you get involved with this time around...especially after the experience you've just endured. It will be nice to be able to take someone out to dinner and have someone to talk to on a Saturday night. Just take things slow and easy. (I sound LIKE MY MOTHER!) Best of everything to you!
Hmmmmmmmm.....you've been a free man sine July 28th! Wow!
I hope you'll do one nice thing for yourself every single day...you deserve it.
I wish you so much future happiness, you've been through a lot and it's time that you find some joy and happiness. I pray you'll have that GC from both of us.
I don't like my marital status. It requires too much explanation. It will be interpreted a certain way by many people. There must be a reason his wife left... Affairs are a symptom...
So I feel okay, but stigmatized. Fortunately, lots of single people my age are divorced and will probably get it.
I don't like my marital status. It requires too much explanation. It will be interpreted a certain way by many people. There must be a reason his wife left... Affairs are a symptom...
Are you speaking of the general public, or of those women you may be interested in and have to divulge more information to? (The reasons for you D need not be shared far and wide!)
I do understand this point completely. And at one time in the past, and in some cases, I might be short-sighted enough to wonder the latter (though not the former) myself. "Affairs are a symptom" -- It's a valid concern. . . up to a point.
But Gray, the fact is (if that were it), you changed, and she was the one who was too foolish to see what she was throwing away. I'm not making excuses for your shortcomings, or hers; only you and she truly knew what went on in your marriage. But the difference here is that youlearned from this experience; it made you more sensitive, respectful, compassionate of a man.
If you get to "that point" in a relationship with a woman where you share that you are divorced and why, methinks she would probably have already had a glimpse of your soul and the lessons and laughter and beauty and compassion it contains. . . and it will mean very little to her why.
Any woman worth her salt will recognize that in you for what it is, and not stigmatize you as "just another statistic."
Yah. There's a reason why she left. She was terminally bent and GC was TOO DAMN GOOD FOR HER. No matter how handy GC is around the house, there are some things that are so broken they don't allow themselves to be fixed. Sparrow is one of them.
I'm praying happiness for you...and someday a someone that doesn't need to be fixed....just adored....'cause you are an adorible, adoring person.
{{{GC}}} hugs to you. i know we have not often posted to each other but i have always read your on going story. i have such a hard time posting to BHs most of the time, especially those who's Ws could not turn themselves around.
too much shame due to my action. i feel like i have to apologize non-stop.
but i wanted to post now to re-iterate what others have said. you DID work and you DID learn and you are better person for it. all the best to you.
The tree that never had to fight For sun and sky and air and light, But stood out in the open plain And always got its share of rain, Never became a forest king But lived and died a scrubby thing. The man who never had to toil To gain and farm his patch of soil, Who never had to win his share Of sun and sky and light and air, Never became a manly man But lived and died as he began Good timber does not grow with ease, The stronger the wind, the stronger the trees, The further the sky, the greater the length, The more the storm, the more the strength. By sun and cold, by rain and snow, In trees and men good timers grow. Where thickest lies the forest growth We find the patriarchs of both. And they hold counsel with the stars Whose broken branches show the scars Of many winds and much of strife. This is the common law of life. -Anonymous-
You got the scars, but you are good timber. For what it's worth.
You will be in our thoughts in the coming days and weeks GC....stay busy. I'm trying to ...but I keep crying. Hopefully it will improve, since I'm down to 4 times a day now...I am hopeful for you and you're an inspiration to us all. You have been a true gentleman.
faith, he is going to beat me up some more about what i confided to him last week about. i had done NOTHING wrong. i cannot control how he chooses to look at it. i did nothing wrong!!! there was a threatening incident that occured and i told him about it. i told him about it and the fact that i at all felt threatened by it is a red flag to him. i must not be serious about him cuz if i did i wouldn't worry about any attention from others... how about.. knowing my weaknesses, i want to take major precautions including telling him about it!!! isn't that a good thing??
and now he remains to be mad at me, in fact i think he is just getting madder actually. he is surely getting more distant. yes we ended up cuddling a bit at least last night but now it is clear from his last phone call to me, that meant nothing to him.
told him about it and the fact that i at all felt threatened by it is a red flag to him. i must not be serious about him cuz if i did i wouldn't worry about any attention from others... how about.. knowing my weaknesses, i want to take major precautions including telling him about it!!! isn't that a good thing??
FL, this is HIS issue, KWIM? You are doing your part by telling him and by trying to protect yourself. Knowing your weaknesses and taking precautions are your part.
but look at the fall out that occured because of it
i mean, i do agree with you, but....
if i had not said anything to him, if i just quietly did the right things, which i did, last week. our weekend would of been so much nicer and there would not be this cold front occuring.
FL, do you see your own pattern here? The fight or flight? You are poised for flight, right? The main deterrent to your weakness is awareness. You have that tool in your toolbelt, use it. As for telling your H, I stil think it was the right thing to do. You see over time he will come to appreciate that you come to him instead of turning to someone else. Right now it likely triggers him but that is better than being kept in the dark. If my H would only tell me when he is tempted, yes it would hurt but far less than the possible results of NOT telling me.
At this point he may be wondering if it will ever get any better, and if he will need to worry about it for the rest of his life. I would think it is hard on both of you. You look to him for support, and don't feel that you get it. And he wonderes how long he can do this because it eats away at him inside to think that you could have feelings for someone else...........
Do either of you (Faithful, or FL) see a solution to either situation?
what i am referring to is not about feelings for another person. it was about an inappropriate contact that another person made to me. i do not know this person at all, however, his office is about 15ft from mine. he is not in my group or even in my dept. when we have passed in the hallway, he has said hi, i have said hi back. same thing that many people do around here, you pass in the hallway, you say hi. i have NEVER engaged in a conversation with this person. i have felt that his hi's seem extra friendly, but some people are just extra friendly.
last wed, he sent an IM to my screen (in internal communication messenging system) with just a "."
at first i didn't even know who it was, but i looked up the screen name and saw the room number and figured it out.
i sent back a "hi?" and he said he accidentally sent that "." which i knew could not be the truth. i then looked in my options and brought up the list of people who had me on their contact list and saw his screen name there.
there is absolutly NO reason this person should have me on his contact list. like i said, different dept completely. he then asked me what dept i worked in, i told him the dept head's name and then i said i was leaving my office to go back to the class i was taking that day.
it felt wrong, although he said the initial msg to me was an "accident", i knew it could not be. and yes, i felt a little flattered, considering how ugly i've been feeling, inside and out.
the next day, we bumped into each other at the cafe but nothing other than hi was exchanged, so that was good.
but it still bothered me and i just don't want to have anything like this in my life.
on the way home on thurs i decide the best route would be to tell my H. so i did. i told him exactly what i said here, included that i did indeed feel a bit flattered and that i didn't like the fact that i felt that way and given my history, i have learned the best thing to do is to face it head on, admit to the feelings but then choose actions based on principles of who i want to be. which included telling him.
from the moment i had decided on the way home on thurs to tell him, i felt better.
but then i told him and it backfired...
ok, i can deal with his knee jerk reaction being negative. but now it has been 5 days....
so NO, i don't see a solution right now... do you?
i told him exactly what i said here, included that i did indeed feel a bit flattered.............
I mis-spoke when I said "feelings." I meant what you said above.
and that i didn't like the fact that i felt that way and given my history, i have learned the best thing to do is to face it head on, admit to the feelings but then choose actions based on principles of who i want to be. which included telling him.
Telling him was good. His not being able to deal with it is not good. HOWEVER, we need to deal with the facts. He probably is wondering if it will ever get better, and if he will have to deal with it long term.
I would guess that he has a hard time talking about his feelings, and that he is sometimes emotionally not there for you. It may be more a communication problem than anything else, but it's real, and it is important.
from the moment i had decided on the way home on thurs to tell him, i felt better.
You are doing what you need for recovery, but he is not doing what he needs. He needs to learn to see what is really going on, and deal with the facts, not with his feelings about what is going on. His feelings can, and will change if he can understand and see the good in what you are doing - which is trusting him, and going to him for help. He should be flattered that you trust him now.
but then i told him and it backfired...
I am sorry for you, it doesn't help your recovery. Sorry for him too, because he has such a hard time dealing with it. However, his feelings are his feelings, we can't change them DIRECTLY, only work with what we have. His responses can be changed over time if he is trained properly. (My W trains me too, and it's a good thing.)
ok, i can deal with his knee jerk reaction being negative. but now it has been 5 days....
I bet something active will need to be done, not just wait for time to pass.
so NO, i don't see a solution right now... do you?
I see some things to try.
Praise him for listening, even if it hurt him to do so. I know it's hard to praise someone who reacts badly, but it is true he listened. It helped you, tell him it did, and thank him. Do it over and over, using different words to say the same thing. I think it would help him to see the connection between you talking to him, and you being able to heal.
He needs see it as a good thing, not a bad one. If he can make this connection a bunch of times, his feelings will change. Note, it will take doing it over again lots of times.
He needs see it as a good thing, not a bad one. If he can make this connection a bunch of times, his feelings will change. Note, it will take doing it over again lots of times.
Basically what I said to you, FL only ss says it better.
ok, so if he starts to "beat me up", for lack of better words:
1. i will stay clear in my head.... i AM handling this correctly.
2. i will help him focus on the facts. perhaps the less emotional i become the better i can help him focus on facts.
3. i will tell him how his listening helped, (right now thanking him for listening feels a bit harder to do but i will. because he did in fact listen.)
i agree he needs to see the good in this but right now, all he sees is that there is "another" issue he has to deal with.
i swear, my opinion... these issues are happening BECAUSE we are not dealing with it correctly... its like the universe is saying... oh, you didn't learn yet.... here ya go, here is another one for you to try then...
i'm almost feeling mad at him when i think about how he is holding us back!!!
but i seriously say ALMOST, cuz in reality i'm not mad at him, how could i be, the good news is... i'm certainly not mad at myself, cuz i'm not doing anything wrong.
the person in question can no longer IM me now and i will NOT engage in any conversations in the hallway and if he comes to my office again (he did today, but i was not in it) i will flat out say, "i am married and i therefore don't believe in having male friends, it's my way of honoring my H."
i already informed him today that i am indeed married, he said he didn't know, and then he said he is too.
the other good news for me.... i'm NOT flattered by this at all now. i was starting to freak just because of i know who i used to be but i'm NOT that person anymore and it's actually very cool that any attention from this person is actually a repulsive thought at this point.
1. i will stay clear in my head.... i AM handling this correctly.
2. i will help him focus on the facts. perhaps the less emotional i become the better i can help him focus on facts.
3. i will tell him how his listening helped, (right now thanking him for listening feels a bit harder to do but i will. because he did in fact listen.)
YES!
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i swear, my opinion... these issues are happening BECAUSE we are not dealing with it correctly... its like the universe is saying... oh, you didn't learn yet.... here ya go, here is another one for you to try then...
Another perspective on this FL, not the UNIVERSE but the evil one is testing your faith. He lost you to God and he is trying to lure you back.
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the person in question can no longer IM me now and i will NOT engage in any conversations in the hallway and if he comes to my office again (he did today, but i was not in it) i will flat out say, "i am married and i therefore don't believe in having male friends, it's my way of honoring my H
Good job!
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then he said he is too.
ewww...
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the other good news for me.... i'm NOT flattered by this at all now. i was starting to freak just because of i know who i used to be but i'm NOT that person anymore and it's actually very cool that any attention from this person is actually a repulsive thought at this point.
THIS is so right on. Good going, FL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
FF, i really was thinking more about satan when i said the universe, that is such a scarier thought though, cuz that means the incidents are not being put in our path to help us grow, but being put in our path to do us harm...
It's another issue, because he doesn't see a reward for dealing with it.
If you praise him for listening, and helping you, he gets something back, and it's a win/win deal.
Never tell him his feelings are wrong, just praise what he does for you that helps you.
"Thanks for listening to me, it helps me so much. I am so glad you are here to help me, and take care of me."
Stuff like that. Praise him when he helps you.
(Later, when both of you are on the same page, you can have blunt talks, but not yet.)
Note that I have been married for 28 years and we still have issues. Some of these things are gender based. (Men are from Mars, Women from Venus) Some are habit, the way we grew up and learned to deal with things.
It is exciting (was for me) to find MB and learn that there are ways to change, and make our marriages so much more rewarding. We are three and a half years after finding MB, and it is so much better.
Basically it is not reacting badly to what hurts us, but finding ways to help each other, and get over the hurt.
It's an emotional version of "you scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours." It's realizing what things set us off, and not letting them get to us any more. It takes one person that understands, being willing to teach and be patient with the other while they catch up.
2long pours a flask of liquid oxygen on the fire, instantly converting everything in the BBQ in2 bright flames, matter converted 2 energy, even the enamel on the BBQ.
2long, are you celebrating the landing of the shuttle, or was there something else behind that pyrotechnic display? (And I swear they said this morning when I was listening to the radio that they SAFE the shuttle before anyone's allowed to approach it. Where'd he get that stuff? Liquid O2 is HIGH POWER! And, errr, cold. I wonder if the fire would go out because of the cold, or explode from the accelerant properties. Hmmmmmm.)
They safe the shuttle after landing because the retro rockets are fueled by hydrazine, which is poisonous (like amonia but quite a bit stronger). So, they have 2 make sure there aren't any leaks after landing.
Hey, 2Long - I was looking forward to meeting you in Burbank. Hopefully there will be another event we both attend.
far
So - is it me - or is the shuttle like all carbon tiles on bottom, and fiberglass blankets on top? It looks as if the white surface is fluffy! (did not notice until the thermal blanket under the window attention occured)
wow 2long, take it easy, you could hurt someone with that stuff!!
SS, FF, thanks for the posts yesterday, it helped me soooo much!!! (hey, guess it's not that hard to thank someone when they help)
i was not at all agitated when i got home from work yesterday, i was a bit hot as i decided to ride my bike to a farther away train stop in order to get more miles in and i was HUNGRY!!! my H had dinner close to done already. (yes, i thanked him.)
we had not chance to talk until quite late and by then he was too tired, although he said he did have things he wanted to say, he was too tired to unscramble his thoughts and say it outloud. he asked me if i had anything to say and i took that opportunity to say thank you for listening and that it did in fact help me keep everything sorted out in my head and that it just felt good to be able to say anything to him. then i said it also feels bad to have something that helps me bring him more pain as that is truely the LAST thing i want to do.
over the weekend, i must admit, i was looking at it wrong, i was thinking telling him anything was a bad idea because we ended up more distant (and i was SOOO looking forward to that weekend!!).
but i have to focus on the bottom line, it IS progress for me, not only because i confided in him (i was going to say i was comfortable confiding in him, truth is i was not, but i did and that will help me move towards feeling comfortable confiding in him in the future) but also because I recoginized and put in precautions, by telling my H, and by telling the guy i am married, (i may have to tell him stronger today and i am ready to do so!) to not allow any temptations to even exist. i've learned a lot!! i have learned my weakness and i have learned tools to address them.
i think it is hard for my H to understand why i am saying i still have this as a weaknes... i know he is asking himself and me... am i saying i want to stray again? and he cannot take any comfort in me just saying, no i don't. he wants me to be more like him. to have the concept be so out of the realm of possibilities that he does not even concern himself with it.
but doesn't he see?? i cannot do that, just like an alcoholic cannot be causual about the temptation of being around alcohol, especially when sobriety has not been that long.
to NOT be aware of my weakness would be careless and just plain wrong of me.
i should not have to apologize for my need to feel loved. i should not have to apologize for wanting to be told i am special and valued and treasured. don't we all really want that?? and i am smart for knowing that those needs are not really being strongly met right now (due to my own actions, i know!!) and that leaves me vunderable. it is not a bad thing to be vunderable, it is a bad thing to know you are vunderable and not take pre-cautions!!
well, that sure got long!!! back to staring at the nice fire.
gray, i too want to again say... you are in my prayers and i hope you are doing ok.
Each of us has to define our boundaries. Having to be particularly conscious of yours, and vigilant in your protection of them, does not make you a bad person. It is, however, your cross to bear. I hope your H can learn to help you carry that burden.
Me, I'm doing okay. I don't quite know what to make of my new circumstances. Strangely, when I learned my D was finished, my house was not suddenly overrun with women.
Seriously though, there are some things I'll need to define more clearly now that the boundaries of my own marriage are gone.
Me, I'm doing okay. I don't quite know what to make of my new circumstances. Strangely, when I learned my D was finished, my house was not suddenly overrun with women.
Seriously though, there are some things I'll need to define more clearly now that the boundaries of my own marriage are gone.
What?? They didn't read the ad I put in your local paper? j/k truly excellent thought about new boundaries now that you are single. You are in my prayers as well, GC.
Strangely, when I learned my D was finished, my house was not suddenly overrun with women.
i bet it won't be long before that changes!!! but i bet you are smart enough to know to take it slowly.
your question to me is a really good one, but i don't really know if i can name it...
i don't think it is accurate to say my weakness is my need to feel loved and valued. because i think that is a natural need. i'll have to think more about how to really name my weakness. i think that could be a really helpful thing to be able to do. thanks.
GC's question is making me scratch my head. i don't really know how to name it. and now that the question is in my head i want to give it a name. seems like it would be more managable that way.
what the heck is my weakness exactly???
ok, i know i have many weaknesses, but my weakness for chocolate, for example, did not contribute to my poor decisions, nor did it contribute to me putting myself in situations where other men can take advantage of situations.
FL - I didn't think you were thinking of a proper noun, but the subject made me think of a story - a book I read once about an alcoholic. He referred to his alcoholism as "the Spider". When he was recovering, he followed this simple rule: "Don't feed the Spider". Once he named it, and learned to recognize it, he refused to ever do what it wanted. He knew that everything it told him was a lie, that it tried to disguise itself as other things, and that all the advice it gave him was bad. He knew it could never be trusted, because it wanted him to drink alcohol and die. He knew also that this Spider was not separate from him. It was a part of him, and it could never be killed - only acknowledged, then dismissed.
I know precisely what you mean. It's an odd sensation, isn't it? For me, it was freedom that I never wanted. There was pain -- and also relief. There was anger and happiness. So much all wrapped into such a complicated package that I couldn't hope to separate them out.
Let the knot unwork itself. It'll get there. And in the meantime, keep holding your head between your warm hands.
GC, ohhhh, i see what you are saying. i can be slow sometimes!! that is a good idea.
B, regarding healthy self-soothing: historically, not very good. ok, pretty much zip, zelch and zero.
however i did have some rather unhealthy habits i tried to use for self-soothing.
i have never used alcohol or drugs to soothe myself, at least i got that going for me.
i have tried to get hooked on cigs many times, however, between my own dislike of it and my kids bugging me when they find out, i've completely left that one behind.
eating was (sometimes still is) a big one. and that is certainly not healthy.
but chatting on the internet was my biggest problem. MANY nights were spent staying up, litterally all night (until the birds started chirping), chatting. i even told that to one of the people that worked in mental health day program that i was in back in early 2001. when they asked me how i was coping with stress, i told chatting online.
i was told that was not a very healthy choice and to try reading or doing some sort of craft (i told them i liked crafts). obviously i did not take their suggestion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
funny thing is, i really thought, back then, that online chatting was good for me, it certainly helped relieve my lonlieness. ok, so i knew i was a bit addicted, but still i was so happy to have some outlet. little did in know just how messed up that habit was going to get me.
healthy self-soothing is something i have talked about with my IC. so now i have some... listening to christian music is a very big one. FF sent me some very good scriptures to read today and that helped immensly (thanks again FF!!) along with prayer.
if i were at home, reading, or soaking in a tub with candles is very nice. if i have access to H, playing a game of backgammon with him calms me down.
although i don't do it enough, jogging or even fast walking is very calming for me, so is bike riding and i do that in conjunction with getting myself to work now everyday and i'm really liking that.
i need to keep at it, keep expanding my options. but more importantly, i need to know learn to use these options at times when i am feeling panicy or upset. what good is having some healthy options if i don't use them!!!
Please learn to soothe yourself. For years I was never able to do it. You need to take care of YOU. After D-day, I promised myself that I would do it.
It is about putting yourself near the top of your list. Different people may do it different ways. I don't know what will work for you. However I have figured out lots of things to do to take care of me.
For example, I am a work-aholic. I never used to take time off from work, for ANYTHING. Nowdays, I call in sick when I feel like it, and not always when I am sick.
I redid my bedroom - in PURPLE, or eggplant as some would say. I even have a mosquito net.
I also ask people for help a lot, which I never used to do. I'm tired of taking the ball and running with it - let someone else make the touchdown.
Ummm......... I also have been getting manicures and pedicures. I bought a pair of F-me high heels that cost (hold your breath) $400.
Since we're not supposed 2 ALWAYS be serious around the campfire, I'll point this out here:
The word "aphelion" (fartherst point from the sun in an orbit) is the opposite of "perihelion" (closest point 2 the sun in an orbit), with the suffix being "helios" - the sun. Thus the pronunciation is "App HEE lee un" not "Aff EE lee un", like "Perry HEE lee un"...
...which is why I call my buddy "Appy" so often! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
...and of course, NOW I'm going 2 get my beautox pounced all OVER for my "2s"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Back 2 you! -ol' 2long (runs in2 the dark woods, after dazzling the crowd by tossing more O2 on the fire)
Ahhh. Now I get it. You ride your Harley in your F me pumps. That's what they are for!
I can just see you in Sturgis now. (I’ll be there with my $67 boots on.)
2long, you’re getting weird(er) from breathing too much pure O2.
Ap-hee-lee-un.
Geez, I never cared before.
I have to pick up DS from his paintball game. Watch out for flying pain, I mean paint, balls. Those kids shoot towards the light and at anything that moves.
No you have it all wrong. When riding a Harley, there is a certain dress code. It does not include $400. pumps.
I have been to Sturgis 3 times, the Laughlin River Run for 15 years, Daytona, and most of the bike events in the country.
On a Harley, it is necessary for the female to dress in black. Leather is good. I have leather chaps, jacket, boots. Then a t-shirt is good. Mine says "show me your Harley".
But F-me pumps? No, that would not do. Too sleazy.
Amusement park as in WE are amusing OURSELVES?? I thought campfires were about ghost stories, marshmellows and silly skits. Too bad SS went out of town, bet he would do a skit for me.
Appy, pass me a beer please. They go great with burnt marshmellows. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Someone (Cerri) recently dared me to purchase and go out in:
- Perfume (I bought a $40 bottle on a whim the other day) - Slutty clothes (the only outfit I looked good in when I was trying on clothes, but no, I didn't buy it) - And stilletto yes-those-kind heels
She is not the first person to suggest such an outing in the last couple of weeks. The other person who suggested it had a specific venue in mind. The sort where, err. Uhm. Well. You know. People, uhm. Do things. There. See?
So anyway. I'm snickering my way through trying to figure out how to be sexy. Err, to wear sexy clothes. I mean, being sexy really involves having clothes OFF, doesn't it? I think I understand THAT part very well.
So. I'm trying to figure out the other part.
So!!! How's that Ferris Wheel? Nice view up there?
Err, and if anyone has clothing suggestions, hey. Lay 'em on me.
I think it's tiles pretty much all over. The black ones are for higher tempera2res.
...but SLH would know more than I do about those
2long et al.,
SLH has been waiting waiting waiting for me to find the motivation to start participating on MB. She figured that throwing my 2¢ into a shuttle/space station thread would be it...here I am. 'Though I am a little scared of sticking my head up out of the dark shelter of my anonymity..., and having it knocked off by many of the caring posters that have helped her cope with so many of MY issues. I truly appreciate the influence of MB on our marriage; many thanks to you all...
You are right about the tiles. The black ones are similar to the white ones, except that they have another coating for the higher temperatures that contains a lot of carbon. My previous job was with the company that designs most of the EVA tools, including the tile repair work that has been in the media lately. The tiles are amazingly fragile, a pencil can easily see its way all the way through from one side to the other (when properly motivated). The leading edge of the shuttle does not use tiles, but uses a carbon-carbon composite that is much stronger than the tiles, but almost impossible to repair during a mission...
Thanks for motivating SLH to handcuff me to the computer. I'm not sure how often I will get to participate, I'm pretty sure I smell smoke coming from one of our daughter's rooms, and I still have to find a way to make a bicycle look like it wasn't run over by a Mom in a Suburban...
Okay, my. . . er. . . driving (for lack of a better word) exploits are legendary, and I have more tickets driving our old Mustang than I do pictures of my kids. . . do we gotta rehash the Bicycle vs. Suburban incident?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Ha ha ha ha ha, Believer! You will have to wait to hear of the sad & tragic demise of DDs Barbie Bike another time! I am justly employing my needs for affection/conversation right now and luring ALH away from the computer! I can only hope he will have forgotten the entire Barbie Bike Saga before he returns. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Thanks so much for being you, ya'll, and welcoming him. Ti says he will come back soon. And I don't think it will take Shuttle tiles and bribery with delisciouso Mexican Melts this time, either. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
*snicker* Shuttle tiles are NOT an emotional need, 2long!! It's the "I-love-to-talk-science-and-no-one-around-me-gets-it-but-YOU-folks-do!!!!" need. Come to think of it, "Shuttle tiles" is probably as good an acronym as any.
And no, that is NOT the same as conversation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SLH, it was real deja vu. If I knew why I had it, it wouldn't be deja vu now, would it?
Okay, so like, wasn't I supposed to stop thinking about my XW after the D was done?
So who's seen Nashville? It's right now my absolute favorite movie ever. Robert Altman just shot a new film in St. Paul, a story that revolves around A Prairie Home Companion. Hope it's as good as his last picture, The Company.
So here's a song from Nashville, Ronnie Blakley's almost lost "Dues" - a three-chord miracle.
It's that careless disrespect I can't take no more, baby It's the way that you don't love me When you say you do, baby
It hurts so bad, it gets me down, down, down I wanna walk away from this battleground
This hurtin' match, it ain't no good I'd give a lot to love you the way I used to do Wish I could
You got your own private world I wouldn't have it no other way But lately you been hidin' your blues Pretendin' what you say
It hurts so bad, it gets me down, down, down I wanna walk away from this battleground
This hurtin' match, it ain't no good I'd give a lot to love you the way I used to do Wish I could
Writin' it down kinda makes me feel better It keeps me away from them blues I wanna be nice to you, treat you right But how long can I pay these dues?
It hurts so bad, it gets me down, down, down I wanna walk away from this battleground
This hurtin' match, it ain't no good I'd give a lot to love you the way I used to do Wish I could
In the midst of trying 2 find a balance between posting enough detail of my sitch in my own threads 2 get good help, but not putting so much detail in that people might identify me or my W or slam my W for things *I* give the impression she's doing (right or wrong, it IS just my interpretation), and posting news of my dad's passing (which DID evoke some wonderful responses from folks, for which I thank you profusely!), I got sucked in2 one of those innane arguments over the existence of Jesus with Foreverhers on ba109's "monogamy" thread!
Same old story, same results. I answer, he reacts with more absolutism, I answer, he reacts. The latest just did it for me though.
But in the midst of it, I realized that my own threads go pretty much unvisited, pretty quickly after I start them, falling back several pages in a single day. Probably my fault for not putting in enough detail (I should be glad, right!?), but maybe I don't need the help so much anymore.
Certainly not like in the early days, I don't. And without the great discussions we used 2 have here on GQ eleven, most of my "productive posts" are 2 help people in real trouble (which drags me back in2 that state of mind 2 some degree), or get sucked in2 a pointless, fruitless argument with FH (you're wrong - about everything, absolutely - by the way... ...but that's just my opinion, 2).
My W and I are doing so much better these days. The "fog" is lifting, for sure. I struggle still with my own feelings about that - realizing that I don't miss her much when she's away is one area I'm a little concerned about, for example. But I know that love is a choice, and I know that with a healthy foundation of unconditional love, we can get the romantic love back if we want 2. All in all, it's a lot better "place" 2 be in than all the post d-day garbage that we went through over the previous few years.
You know what's funny? I'm finding that I have 2 make a conscious decision 2 post in moderation 2 my TELESCOPE forums, so as not 2 spend 2 much time not pondering my marriage. A lot better "predicament" 2 be in for me right now, I think...
So here's a load of the best hickory I can find for the fire, gc. Burns slow, smells nice. Should last a long while, I think.
wow, you guys had a busy and fun night here around the campfire!!!
My goal today is to stay light hearted!! who's with me?
believer, your description of your shoes cracked me up!!! i hate to admit this, i pretty much wear gym shoes all the time. too bad shoes is one of the things that guys look at first!!! (according to ap anyway, is that what we are calling him now, i really didn't follow 2long's explanation at all!!!)
when you first said self-soothe, i was thinking about how to cheer myself up when i'm feeling down. which is kinda different than taking care of oneself on an on-going basis.
i think i'm better at that then i historically have been; however, i started getting better at that at about the same time as i started the As via the internet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
i had just lost a lot of weight back then and spent some money on clothes, something i don't do very often at all!!!
what i really like to spend money on is activities, more than stuff. i got into a major (too much) phase of concerts. my taker was way out of control.
i've slowed that way down, however, not completely. i've gone to a few concerts this summer but they are well choosen ones. i try to find the ones my H might have the best chance at enjoying. i really messed up on the main one we went to this summer though. i got into a bad mood before going and i just could not get out of it, or maybe i just didn't want to. my H really wanted to enjoy the concert and he got stuck with a unhappy person next to him. a friend of his was there too. i felt really bad about it later. it was definitely a case of cutting off my nose to spite my face that night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
i also try to have activites with each child seperately. my son and i have gone to see Blues Travelers the past few years and have really enjoyed it. but we could not find a place to see them this summer. we are going to see BoDeans instead.
my daughter is not much into concerts so we are going to see Wicked a musical that is playing downtown about the wicked witches from the Wizzard of Oz (before dorthy crashed down there.) that is next week!!
i work hard, i should be able to spend some on things i enjoy so i have trained myself to not agonize over spending money anymore. when i was with my mom, i watched her struggle with the budget every month, 4 kids, single mom. i think that is why i got the mindset of not spending money. it was so engrained in me that i would not want to order anything but the least expensive item on any menu (even McDonalds!!!) now i order what i will enjoy eating although i still have a hard time ordering the most expensive item on the menu. i should probably keep working on that!!!
i like to have flowers in the house, i have not gotten any lately, i think i am due. i like candles too. i doubt i will ever buy a pair of $400 shoes though!!! i don't even shop at any store that sells $400 shoes!! lol
hey ap, did you get hit by any stray paintballs?? we usually stick with laser tag around here.
any beers left?? i don't drink IRL at all (H's request) but i think it would be ok here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
ALH, WELCOME!! MB people are really very nice, no need to worry. i've done some pretty horrible things in my marriage and i was very kindly accepted. it is the present that is important, not the past <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SLH, so you get ALH to post and then you lure him away right before he is about to tell us a great story??? shame on you!!!
I've never seen Nashville GC. the song is kinda a downer though, don't you think you be better off watching something funny, like Shrek??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> i love that green guy. or even better, The Emperors New Grove!! i'm so glad i have kids!!! without them i might not have ever seen either of those films.
ok, time to work, before 2long gets back here and throws some more of that stuff on the fire!!
so now you are bringing us nice wood to burn instead??
ya know, i have read some of your story but not on an ongoing basis. i'm glad you can say things are better. don't settle for just better though, ok? are you guys in C at all? have you done the EN questionaire? do you work on your R? maybe you already are, but if you are not, that is my advice to you, don't settle for just ok. i fear that is what my H is going to want to do, get over this just enough to be able to bear it, but still not partner up with me to build a great marriage.
I've never seen Nashville GC. the song is kinda a downer though, don't you think you be better off watching something funny, like Shrek???
FL, sad songs are a comfort to me. But I saw Charlie and the Chocolate Factory over the weekend. That must count for something. Nashville is very funny by the way. But its brilliance is more subtle than the brilliance of, say, Shrek. Movies are great for silliness and escapist thrills, but sometimes I get a sort of depressive hangover after I see that kind. I like it better when they inspire me.
Well, 2long, there I was, all frustrated again with the following statement, uttered way too often:
"Without God, there are no morals."
This statement drives me CRAZY. It betrays a maddening lack of perspective in the speaker. I cannot have a serious discussion of ethics and morality with a person who holds this view.
i'm having a really crappy day!!!! only work related stuff though so it is kinda refreshing actually <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> nothing like having a busy day to keep you unfocused on your personal life.
GC - did you like Charlie and the CF? i was not expecting to like it at all because the original is just too good. but the kids wanted to see it, afterall, Johnny Depp is in it!! (that is my DD speaking). I was extremely surprised, i loved it. i thought they did an awesome job re-inventing the story by going into WW's (that's willie wonka, not wondering wife!!!) childhood.
I like both the original and the new C&CF. But I was surprised by the way some of the scenes in the new movie are just as badly paced as in the original. Johnny Depp is too good. I have no idea what inspired his WW. It was so odd, but so consistent in its oddity. I saw NO Michael Jackson in that character, just for the record. Maybe Phil Spector?
The songs in the original movie are TERRIBLE. Danny Elfman made them super cool in the new version.
Well yanno, someone has to light that fire under your butt and it might as well be me.
It happened when I got this "I don't give a rats [censored]" attitude, and then guys started asking me out. And I say to them "I am still in love with someone else but if you just want to go out as friends and have a good time, I am good with that".
It really is all in the attitude. I know I am still so in love, but decided that I can still have fun and get on with my life, making friends and who know what will happen.
Actually my DD's dad said to me a few weeks ago "your biggest problem Cathy is you don't have an attitude, and you take life waaaaay too seriously anymore".
He was right Gray. Something you need to hear as well, perhaps.
But being alone is okay too, I am just not going to spend the six years alone and grieving like I did when DD's dad left.
And yes, life is truly spiritual, and that is what makes it so beautiful.
I am so very glad that you two are going to make it. It would have broken my heart if you didn't. But then again, I always knew you would. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
She is a lucky lady, and you are a lucky man.
ELP "Lucky Man"
He had white horses And ladies by the score All dressed in satin And waiting by the door
Ooooh, what a lucky man he was Ooooh, what a lucky man he was
White lace and feathers They made up his bed A gold covered mattress On which he was laid
Ooooh, what a lucky man he was Ooooh, what a lucky man he was
He went to fight wars For his country and his king Of his honor and his glory The people would sing
Ooooh, what a lucky man he was Ooooh, what a lucky man he was
A bullet had found him His blood ran as he cried No money could save him So he laid down and he died
Ooooh, what a lucky man he was Ooooh, what a lucky man he was
I just want to thank you guys for all of the talking...I truly mean that. As I read the posts I see every emotion I'm experiencing right now, as well as the physical issues and feelings of desperation I'm living with right now. I have 4 or 5 periods a day when I don't think I 'll survive another minute without him. Then, I come back to earth in about 15 minutes and go on with the day. (This can be uncomfortable in my work environment.) I just wanted to thank you since knowing others have been through it helps more than you'll ever know.
Just a quick update. Things have gotten rather interesting in my life lately...
I have a recently immigrated Austrian couple living here- we have sort of adopted one other. They are both teachers (who have doctorates in Astronomy among other things), so I am learning the physics of black holes, and Japanese Swordfighting , that is, when we aren't gorging on rich Viennese food...
Did I mention that they love to cook?
I wake up in the morning to hear,
"Good Morning!!! Breakfast is ready!!!!"
And it begins.
Nothing very interesting on the husband front- and I am too busy at work and eating all day to care much.
SAR2, isn't it valuable, despite what little comfort it gives from your feelings? Just to know that people survive it? It also gives you an occasion to think of others, others who have suffered. Though isn't a contest!
So think of someone like for example Elie Wiesel. Someone who turned unimaginable pain and loss into a meaningful life.
Tonight I went out with a friend to the neighborhood joint - a clean, fit place. Not a place for knuckleheads. At the end of the night the waitress invited us to hang out in back after close while she and the cook and the cook's friend had a smoke.
The waitress was with a male friend, so no dates yet, weaver, but it's a start.
You must be on vacation, hey Gray? I'm always amazed at the hours everyone posts on this thread.
And it most definately is a start, socializing with the waitress. For me I am so excited because I have always been so shy, and guys didn't feel comfortable approaching me. Now I make a point to come out of my shell. I just blurt out whatever comes to my mind, and stop dwelling on their reaction of me. Not being so self-centered is the new attitude for me.
SAR,
My pain is subsiding in that I have days now where I don't feel extreme pain anymore. Last weekend for me, I truly did not think I would survive, but with some help from some friends I made it through it.
I have to believe for me the worst is over, and now when I read a post like yours where someone is in that horrible, gut wrenching place it stops me in my tracks.
We are all so connected that when we rely on others it actually helps to heal our pain.
For me just being held by my friend last weekend while I cried made all the difference in the world. I needed someone to hold me so bad it was palpable. And not in a sexual sense either. Just the human touch. And I will seek out other people, because I now know that is where healing comes from. Not to cry on their shoulder (unless I am in a really bad place) but to connect, with love,caring and laughter.
I mean there was a time last weekend when I actually begged and begged for my parents to reach down from the heavens and hold me. I needed to feel the arms of someone who cared around me so bad. Weird for me to feel this neediness, but I needed it like air at the time.
Hey Weaver!! Shul, glad you are distracted and in good company. Maybe you can get to the point of conversing with 2Long in his lingo. {{SAR2}} It will get better one way or the other. GC, when you are truly ready those women will pop out of the woodwork.
Thank you for your replies. Yes, the one thing I do know right now is that others have not only survived, but used the experience as a new beginning of something even better than they ever could have imagined...either personally or for the good of mankind. That does give me peace.
I think my present downward spiral comes from the fact that I have been married to my WH for 30 years...we've lived all but three in the same place. I can't turn a corner, hear a song, or even go to a store without reliving it again as I did with him. I think I might be someone needing an entirely new start...away from all of the memories. I don't know, and I'm not in a hurry to make any decisions....(and certainly not in the correct frame of mind.) For now, I am in SURVIVAL mode, and I'm taking it one minute at a time. I pray a lot, read a lot, and I'll advance from here in time.
WH numbs himself with alcohol...it's one of 2 issues that had him leave the house. It's just hard when you love someone because you WANT to help. But.......this is not my problem to solve. I can't do it.....I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't cure it. When you've given yourself to someone, that's a tough reality to face. He has to want to help himself, and unfortunately he's so fogged up and/or plastered that he can't get his act together. I have no idea what the future holds...but then again, does ANYONE? Nope! We don't know when illness, accidents, etc. may happen. It's time for me to look at life in a different way.
Thanks for the kind words and the insights you all continue to provide...all I wanted to say is that reading your posts have helped me get through some really rough evenings...and you have helped me because you cared enough to share the things you felt.
what a day on the boards yesterday, i just read the thread about why FWS tell BS not to worry. i think i'm kinda glad i was not around when that was happening.
and i missed all the posts here and although i did read them, i'm too exaushted to post much more, even though some of it was fun stuff.
i hurt my back, i'm not sure how. i've never had back problems before, i literally could not get out of bed or dressed without help. I didn't get to work, and i am trying not to worry about it right now but then again, yesterday was my last day at work before a 2 week vacation and there was much i had to do!!! in the afternoon, i was at least able to call and hand off the most important things. i am still considering trying to get my work lap top home so i can take care of one thing that really needs my attention. i'm starting to figure that is just not going to happen.
i am sitting in front of this computer right now, so i am obviously a bit better, THANKFULLY!!!
i just wish i knew what caused this. i am seeing someone today that will hopefully help. anyone ever hear of MAT, Muscle Activation Theorpy? I used to weight train with this guy who is now doing that. i trust him very much, very smart guy in the area of physical well being. My H is driving me over at noon (yes, my H knows this peson too and is in agreement with trying this treatment out). I sure hope it helps. The kids are a bit worried, i took off the next 2 weeks so we could do a bunch of fun summer stuff before they go back to school and a lot of it requires a healty body!!!
anyway... HI's to you all. I plan to stay far away from computer during the next 2 weeks. I have literally written down a prayer list of people from here. I will be praying for so many here by name as well as a blanket prayer for all those hurting.
see ya in 2 weeks.
(p.s. don't know why i am just pointing in gc's campfire thread here, seems the safest place right now. thanks for letting me sit around the campfire this past week)
I'm here tonight. It seems quiet. I read the stuff on other threads earlier today, and it made me sad even though I wasn't able to see most of the bad things that were said. The people on both sides are good people who got triggered and who got even more hurt.
I dunno if Aphelion's reading this weekend or not, but if you are, I've got a drink addressed to your solar location on it.
And some fresh-made cookies that I decided to bake, too. I don't want to eat 'em all myself, you know, so if you could help a girl out, I'd appreciate it.
Alright folks. Things can certainly get worse, if we let them. Therefore:
Ian Dury and the Blockheads: "Hit Me with your Rhythm Stick"
"In the deserts of Sudan And the gardens of Japan From Milan to Yucatan Every woman, every man
Hit me with your rhythm stick. Hit me! Hit me! Je t'adore, ich liebe dich, Hit me! hit me! hit me! Hit me with your rhythm stick. Hit me slowly, hit me quick. Hit me! Hit me! Hit me!
In the wilds of Borneo And the vineyards of Bordeaux Eskimo, Arapaho Move their body to and fro.
Hit me with your rhythm stick. Hit me! Hit me! Das ist gut! C'est fantastique! Hit me! hit me! hit me! Hit me with your rhythm stick. It's nice to be a lunatic. Hit me! Hit me! Hit me!
Hit me! Hit me! Hit me!
In the dock of Tiger Bay On the road to Mandalay From Bombay to Santa Fe Over hills and far away
Hit me with your rhythm stick. Hit me! Hit me! C'est si bon, mm? Ist es nicht? Hit me! hit me! hit me! Hit me with your rhythm stick. Two fat persons, click, click, click. Hit me! Hit me! Hit me!
Hit me! Hit me! Hit me! Hit me! Hit me! Hit me! Ow! Hit me! Hit me! Hit me! hit me! Hit me (x5) Hit me! Hit me! Hit me"
I heard this song on NPR about 5 years ago. When my DD got Napster on her iMac, back when it was free, I downloaded it then. I remember playing it for my W 2 hear, telling her "It's kinda corny, lyric-wise, but I really like the musc". She listened 2 the whole thing, and said that "it's very nice, ac2ally."
The 2nd A started sometime around then - ac2ally before that.
I couldn't find the song again after the fire at our house, even though I looked pretty hard after we got the computers back from the restoration people (they got wet when the fire department doused the house). And all the searches I did on the internet came up empty, except for the lyrics. ...until 2day. The band changed names or something, from "Control Freq" 2 "Barcelona", or it was done by them or something like that, but even that isn't listed on iTunes. Had 2 go 2 Static Revenger 2 download it.
...imagine my chagrin 2 find that the song was used in some reality TV show about Britney Spears. Please, folks! Don't ruin that song for me by telling me ANYTHING about the context in which it was used. I don't want 2 know!!! ("B.S." is nearly my least favorite life form on this planet!!!!). And besides, I "found" that song before she did!!!
I've posted the lyrics before, so I won't again. Look them up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
...then download them and we'll all sing it 2gether around gc's bonfire, with him on the guit-fiddle!!!
2long, I always use Bearshare, the free version. It's the only one I am familiar with. Just make sure you have a dang good virus protector installed on your 'puter.
Didn't read anyone's post, just caught this questions from 2long.
Gray, no need to be jealous anymore - update
Date didn't go too well. Just made me miss Dan more. Nice guy but I wanted to drive myself home because I was in tears by the end of the night, wishing he was Dan and feeling so incredibly disloyal.
Anyway -
I spent the night and most of today in jail. I had four glasses of wine and got pulled over on my way home from the place we met at.
Blew .12 on the breathalizer and spent 12 hours in the tank. I swear I thought I was in ******.
I don't weigh much, so of course it didn't take much for me to get a drunk driving. My first.
I really never thought it could get any worse. Well guess what, it did.
Called a pastor when I got home and cried for half an hour on the phone while he prayed and talked to me.
I have to be in court Tues morning bright and early for the plea.
Pastor Lou says I should plead guilty. And to go see him at church tomorrow.
What a drag.
There was a young girl, a baby of about 21 in the tank with me. She cried for about three hours, thought my heart would break for her. They were so mean to her, pretty little thing she was too. When they brought her in they threw her in that cell, I mean THREW her in and didn't even give her a mat for that concrete floor.
I now know where evil lives. I hate cops.
I literally thought I was in a torture chamber. They wouldn't give me a drink of water, knowing how thirsty and dehydrated I must be. Wouldn't give me an aspiran, or a phone book, even though I could not remember a phone number to get someone to come in a post bail.
They had a blinding light on in that tank all the way across the ceiling and wouldn't dim it all night. I can't even tell you what that was like.
Lord have mercy on those cops. I worry for their souls. The power of the badge is truly a scarry thing.
I'm so sorry. ...I don't know about that side, but when I've been on jury duty there alway seem 2 be drunk driving cases because it's so hard 2 prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. Made me mad at the time, because the case I was almost called on was a pretty young gal who'd gotten on the freeway the wrong way and caused an accident because she had been drinking...
I'd ask others their opinion on what you should do.
2long, I always use Bearshare, the free version. It's the only one I am familiar with. Just make sure you have a dang good virus protector installed on your 'puter.
Ah! That's why I never downloaded it! It's for PCs! Bill Gates clones!!!
I'm a Mac person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, very sorry about the DUI. I will keep your sitch in my prayers.
Hey wanted to tell my friends on this thread I am taking a breather. My depression has gotten a good hold on me and I need to refocus. Too much pain here and I want to help too much. I won't be gone long, probably a week or so. Just long enough to refocus on work, home and my M. Not to mention spend some time with God and healing ME. I love you all. Appy, if you log in...you are in my prayers. You and 2long are such good men. GC, hugs to you too. All the rest of you know I love ya.
I called a friend of mine at customs tonight (I am a customs broker) who has worked in law enforcement and he said I should probably just plead guilty and be done with it.
I will try and talk to an atty on monday and see if I should try and get it reduced to impaired driving. But I don't hold out much hope in talking to an atty on Monday before the court date of Tuesday.
Whatever I end up "getting", the time in that cell was worse than any felony or misdemeanor (if that is what first offense would be) on my record.
I will never drive after drinking again. Believe me folks it is not worth being arrested and spending 12 hours in jail.
Sorry to butt in, but Weaver... I'm so sorry that happened. Just from what you wrote... are you not going to get a lawyer? With all due respect to you and your Pastor, now is not the time to take legal advice from your Pastor!
Download "Sweetest Day" by Control Freq, or Barcelona, or whatever they're calling themselves.
Don't get the wrong idea, though. It's just a purdy song, and I know you like purdy stuff. I mean nothing inappropriate by it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Weaver .... drinking to numb your pain ... that is not the correct door ... choose a different door honey.
This can be a wake up call ... as in .... detour .... headed in wrong direction....
Thank God you were only arrested .... there are much worse things that can happen ... much worse.
Get legal advice. Court may expunge your record if you agree to some community service or AA meetings, something like that ... go this route if possible.
Weaver, I'm glad no one was hurt. You were fortunate.
It is the cops job to keep the town safe.
People are killed in drunk driving accidents every day. Had it been your daughter driving drunk, I think you would be glad the cop pulled her over and kept her and the other people on the road safe.
Consequences for drinking and driving drunk...just like consequences for affairs. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I don't want you to get hurt!
Where was your daughter while you spent the night in jail?
Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I'm listening to gospel! I need to shift my perspective, maybe. Haven't pulled out Freak Out! or We're Only in it for the Money in a while... maybe tonight's the night.
Ac2ally (sorry), one of my favorite FZ releases is The Lost Episodes. I hope everyone's sense of humor is working when they read this. It's definitely pushing it:
L.A. in the summer of '69 I went downtown and bought me some wine I wasted my head on a bottle of juice And now the grape won't cut me loose
Well, I'm a wino man! Well, don't you know I am? Great God Almighty Don't you know I'm a wino man
36, 24, hips about 30 I see fine lady and I start talkin' dirty She looked at me and then she raised her thumb And said, "Jam down the road, you funky a** bum"
Well, I'm a wino man Well, don't you know I am Great God Almighty Don't you know that I'm a wino man
I went to the country And while I was gone I lost control of my body functions On a roller-headed lady's front lawn I'm so ashamed But I'm a wino man, and I can't help myself
I been drinkin' all night until my eyes got red Stumbled on the gutter and busted my head Bugs in my zoot suit Been scratchin' like a dog Can't stand no water And I stink like a hog Give me a five dollar bill And an overcoat too Give me a five dollar bill And an overcoat too A five dollar bill And an overcoat too A five dollar bill And a Florsheim shoe
Okay, ahem. Serious a second. I'm going out in a bit, but before I go...
2long, et al., I am having a strange experience.
I'm having feelings of enormous affection for the sparrow. Not, boy oh boy, I wish she were here feelings, but strong caring feelings.
Maybe plan B actually worked in a way.
What does it matter though? I might never speak to her again. Oh, well.
I could use one of J's cookies. I was supposed to go for sushi with my chums, so I didn't eat all afternoon. They dragged their butts, and only now they're on the way to the city. I think I'm gonna make 'em pick me up. Least they can do for making me wait around all night, right?
Weaver.... I'm guessing that cell, and the way that they treated you, are designed to make a very strong impression the first time you're in there. I'm terribly sorry for the pain you're in right now. I'm also glad, for you and for that young girl, that the experience was terrifying. Because I'd really like for you both to never, ever repeat it.
Pepperband had good advice about the AA or community service and getting your record expunged, and the thought of your continuance because you don't have legal counsel is also a good one. Take heart, sweetie... and, err, maybe no more dates for a while, ok?
Instead, sing along with 2long and GC. They're very silly, but they're cute when they sing harmony like that.
I'd much rather that you come here and sing silly songs with
Yes I will ask for the AA/community service route. And no, I am not ready to date, and I will never get behind the wheel after drinking again.
I hope the police act that way for a reason, and I'm sure it does keep alot of people from repeating. I can't imagine going through that ordeal twice.
tqt,
This tread is all about butting in. That's why it's so welcoming. So thank you for taking the time to voice your concern. It means a lot to me.
The pastors whole point is that one needs to accept responsibility for their actions and not try to get it lowered due to extenuating circumstances. I was drunk, I was also in a bad emotional place but I chose to break the law. I think his line of thinking is along the lines of a 12 step program. He works with alot of alcohlics, and has a very high success rate with them in his church and the community.
Susan,
My daughter is with her dad these four months (50/50 custody), but he is bringing her over for the day today.
He is the one who came down and bailed me out, he also didn't tell DD about it but I did this morning. He can be such a good guy, I am so thankful she has him.
Pep,
Yep, wrong door, lesson learned and I am following everything you guys write about Al-anon. Wierd how I keep living what is going on in some of these threads. Last weekend with the "people of the lie" thing and now this.
Too wierd, and that brings me to Gray - Yes I keep going through stuff. I have to believe I am on some kind of lesson learning journey, and choas/heartache is the reaccuring theme.
Enough already though.
2long,
I can't find that song by either group name. Kind of bummed about that too, but will keep searching.
Faith,
Taking a break from here is easier said then done. Hope you can do it though, because I know exactly what you are talking about. Hope you can beat this depression which seems to be hanging on to you.
Thank you everyone. I am so thankful you all continue to put up with me, and my problems.
Static Revenger claims they're the only place you can download that song. I believe it. I've looked off and on for over 3 years now, and only saw it recently. Had 2 pay like a buck and a half for it, 2. But I like the song, so I did anyway.
Reminds me: 27 years ago, I was working in a machine shop... The guy driving the roach coach one day asked our foreman "What do you guys make here, anyway?" He didn't hesitate a 2nd "Minimum Wage!"
One more thing Weaver. I really don't think you are ready for dating yet, but I think you realized that with this experience. You are still so bruised and sore.
Concentrate on yourself. Concentrate on being a healthy Mom for your daughter. Spend time with her (when she get's back from her Dads). The time will fly and she will be grown before you know it.
Do you have (as Pep calls it)a house of worship? Does it have a singles group? Now would be a good time to spend time having fun with friends or groups.
Close attachments can come a little later.
Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Hi Weaver, I understand what you said... and thanks for taking the time to reply. Hang in there... hope it all gets resolved as quickly and painlessly as possible. A judge recognizes someone of truly good character, vs. someone with a blatant disregard for the law -- and I believe you're the former <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wish you the best.
I'm making barbecued pork for supper. In my crock pot. Dang, but it smells fantastic. And yes, I made (virtually speaking, anyway) enough for everyone. We're having it on whole wheat buns with corn on the cob, baby carrots, and watermelon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
AD - thanks. It wasn't so horrible, but I'm feeling it a little now. My life is starting to hint at moving forward, and something in me wants to stay back there. Woke up with tears this morning. Crappy sparrow dreams.
I'm late to the after-party, and just read about you being in jail.
Please, please find a very good DWI attorney and get advice 1st. What you do in court on Tuesday could have a life long effect.
I can't imagine how horrible it was to be in jail; but I am glad the young girl had someone like you to be there with her.
I had to bail my xH out of jail in the middle of the night once...long story and I won't bore you with the details - but having the right attorney made all the difference in the world to his consequence - but he still lost his drivers license for 6 months as a result.
I believe his was a felony DWI, because there was reckless driving attached to it as well. But please take an experienced attorney with you to court. It would have been far worse for my xH had he not.
"He says "well I got me two changes of BVD's. I got me my guitar. I got me my address book, a... pair of socks, 4 masked marvel comic books, a tennis racquet and four hundred n' ninety-seven n' a half feet o' rope.""
Did you watch the shower the other night, 2long? A bunch of us laid out in the middle of the meadow to see. We had the northern lights with it. It was pretty.
Heard this just now ;
Empty spaces fill me up with holes Distant faces with no place left to go Without you within me I can't find no rest Where I'm going is anybody's guess
Chorus: I try to go on like I never knew you I'm awake but my world is half asleep I pray for this heart to be unbroken But without you all I'm going to be is incomplete
Voices tell me I should carry on But I am swimming in an ocean all alone Baby, my baby, it's written on your face You still wonder if we made a big mistake
(Repeat chorus)
I don't mean to drag it on, But I can't seem to let you go I don't wanna make you face this world alone I wanna let you go (alone)
I am playing house mother to a bunch of college students for the next two weeks.
One of them ( drunk) is outside the back door puking as we speak.
Not an auspicious start...
My husband. Where to start. He is broke and he has no money for gas to get to work. Ow told him that if he doesn't 'perform' he doesn't get to 'reap the rewards'...
(She has been plying him with money etc these past two years.) She is mad at him b/c he hasn't been paying attention to her. (no sex, no visits)
He could be staying with her, but he won't. Tonight I told him maybe it would be better if he moved in with her, but he said he will figure something else out. That if he stays with her he has to have sex with her.
He and I are finally getting to be on a 'friends' basis I guess. He is being quite open.
That was too funny, about the saw in the cake. LOL
Susan I am not going to date anymore now. I think I need to spend time with friends yes, and I am going back to my church. I am starting to miss it.
Csue and tqt,
I retained an atty yesterday and he is meeting me this morning at 8 am before the hearing. He said he will have it reduced to impaired driving. I was not really drunk, but still over the legal limit.
I got scared thinking of getting the max and possibly 90 days in jail by pleading guilty. You know I am so not a bar person, have only been about 5 times in the past couple of years. And I drink only wine sometimes beer and only a couple but it effects me, and I do need to stay away from it for awhile. And I need to avoid the bars like the plague, yuck.
Anyway I hired a new assistant as the one who was with me the last 12 years got a better job. This new assistant is a couple of years older than me and just a bundle of joy. She laughs all the time and really lifts everyones spirits.
She asked me to join a bowling team with her, and my sister and another girlfriend too. So we will be bowling once a week. I am so excited about this. Girlfriends and hanging out once a week, yes.
DD and I are going on a road trip this coming weekend, don't know where but to a hotel with a pool and maybe on the water if I can afford one. Just mom and DD for the weekend doing girl things.
Had so many people call me after they read what happened in the paper to wish me well, and say I was the least likely person in town to be out drinking and driving. (they put this crap in our paper because this town is retarded).
Thanks all.
Maybe next week I can enjoy the campfire along with JJ's cooking, 2long and Grays singing... when all of this will seem a distant memory. YEAH!
AD - thank you.
Oh and case anyone is interested, it cost $350 for bail,$10 for the privilege of staying in the torture chamber for 13 hours, $65 to get my car out of the pound, $76 for new license plate as cops took mine, $750 to retain atty and I'm looking at at least a $500 fine.
Tonight, band rehearsal. The commercial we shot last weekend was ready, and the director was coming over to show it. So the band sat around watching TV. I went to the practice room and got set up, played my guitar, waited, waited. Nobody. An hour later, the director finally showed. Another hour of clowning. Finally, at 10:00, the band was ready to play music.
I don't go to rehearsal two times a week to sit around having inane chatter and watching the tube.
I complained about it later. Not an angry gripe, just the truth, calmly expressed. I summed it up with, "I'd just rather play music than sit around watching TV." One of the guys said, "That's what makes you you" or something like that. This is a guy who watches maybe 20-30 hours of TV a week. And he comes to rehearsal, and just wants more TV!
Something like this happens every time we rehearse. I try not to get annoyed. I try to be grateful that I get to play music with my friends at all.
I'm getting tired of it though. If I put down my guitar and join them, they're watching the "Teen Choice Awards" and talking about "entertainment news" or relating things they saw on TV in the last two days.
These situations make feel me more and more isolated. When I was seeing my IC and I talked about this stuff, she told me that I was changed, and that at times it would be hard for me to relate to my friends. Don't I know it.
I'm not surly or harsh about this stuff around my pals. When I complain, I don't point my finger at them and say they're wrong to do what they want. I just acknowledge that it's not my first choice for how it would be.
But I feel like an island. One that nobody wants to visit.
So you are a guitar player. I would have guessed keyboards.
I can understand wanting to just play when you go to practice. In music, you can lose yourself. If your band is going to be serious, you need somebody to be in charge of rehearsals! These guys must all be young, single and in no particular hurry to go anywhere.
I'm not a musician at all, but I just bought a keyboard. It's used, but I still can't justify the cost. It's supposedly for my DD4, but it's a bit excessive for her. I was going to ask your opinion before I bought, but I made my choice without professional advice. It's a Kurzweil sp88x. I've been fiddling around with it for hours every day. The pseudo-grand piano sounds very nice - and almost feels right, but I like the strings a lot.
I've got a real piano over at the other house - Yamaha C7. I was holding off on moving it because it will cost me $400 to move it, and then I'll have to have it tuned for another hundred. That's almost as much as I paid for the Kurzweil. I figured if I sell it I should just sell it out of the other house and save the moving cost. I could use the money, and honestly, considering that I don't really play at all, this keyboard would be plenty for me. W is adamant that I should not sell it. She's given me about 10 lectures on that subject (including one yesterday or today). It is, she says, something that one simply does not sell - unless moving overseas or the person who plays it dies. It's something special, a family heirloom. If I'm going to keep it, I gotta get it moved over here. The AC is out over there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I shudder to imagine what might happen to the piano in this heat.
The electric keyboard is pretty cool though, but I think it's going home with DD when she starts her next little music class.
Last night I was awake. Thought about computer time......but it came to me that the best thing is always to attempt to do what is best, not substitute something else.
I laid awake. Not worrying really, not thinking really, just drifting. Sleep wouldn't come though - 1:30.....2:00?
Not sure, but morning came finally, and I realized I had slept.
When sleep won't come, I pretend it will.... and I wait it out. It was hard at first. Easier now...........as the years pass.
Graycloud, you have gone ahead of your friends. You have grown.
Things you have learned, are a mystery to them. Your mind wanders different paths much of the time.
Isaac Asimov wrote a book called "The caves of steel." Cities seem that way sometimes. It's easy to wander, easy to loose ones self in the caves.
I have spent much time wandering the caves of sandstone. I have searched for things you are searching for. It's not that there are no people out here in the world that think like you think. It's just that they are not in your band these days.
Tonight I'll sing my songs again I'll play the game and pretend But all my words come back to me In shades of mediocrity Like emptyness in harmony I need someone to comfort me Homeward bound I wish I was Homeward bound Home, where my thought's escaping Home, where my music's playing Home, where my love lies waiting Silently for me Silently for me Silently for me
I have to believe there is someone out there for you. I do beleive it. I believe there is meaning, and fullness of joy.
Don't give up. Don't loose hope.
Don't be afraid to change directions if and when it is needed.
Home is where the heart is. Where is your heart? Where do you want it to be?
Feeling lots of sadness for my XWW these days. I remember once, she didn't know what to give me for a birthday present, so she gave me cash. In the card, she suggested a few things I might use it for. One of the items was misspelled. There's so much contained in that one misspelled word. Remembering it breaks my heart.
And if that's not bad enough, I imagine what it must feel like for her, to know the suffering she's created. I hate to think of her feeling that sort of guilt and pain, but I also hate to imagine her not feeling it.
So confusing! I wish I could help her, but maybe she needs no help.
If you truly care about her Gray, a letter from the heart might get her attention. And if nothing else it would be a way for you to say goodbye to her and what you shared together, with love.
For if you truly love another you want for them to follow the path which leads them to happiness, regardless of the pain that path inflicts upon you.
I left my exSO a letter over at my(his) island property two weeks ago, in the camper I still own half of and know he is sharing with another women.
I told him I was thankful for the time we had together, for the love we once shared and that I needed to say goodbye to him with love. I also said I hoped one day we would be friends... and that I hoped life would be good to him.
Did it help him? I don't know. Did it help me? Yes, after a brief weekend in ****** I think I have finally been able to let go...with love.
And that means everything to me. Perhaps it does to you too.
You know I think I am getting there. It's been one heck of a ride, but I feel more peace than not these days. Can't say I laugh out loud as often as I once did, but I can feel it coming my way again.
Still struggling with my faith though. But I'm still talking to Him, so I'm hanging on for some reason.
And hoping that the light comes back. Maybe it is, and that is why I am feeling some peace lately.
As far as Dan, I don't really obsess any more. I know he is at the island this week and probably not alone but for some reason I am okay with that.
Taking DD up north this weekend to stay at a hotel with a pool, and bum around. She is really excited about it. Keeps calling me to discuss this and that. Mostly where we are going to shop. Oh and my arrest is apparently the talk of this little town, so Paige wants to talk about that quite a bit. And my sister wants me to send her an email outlining how horrendous the whole ordeal was so she can email it to her college age daughters, to scare them. LOL
Weaver, I have many, many days that I struggle with my faith. I do believe it comes with the territory when you suffer trauma. Yet I am always comforted to know that God is faithful and forgiving. He waits for you and is with you always.
Still struggling with my faith though. But I'm still talking to Him, so I'm hanging on for some reason.
I promise he is there. I promise and I say that from personal experiance, not from reading a book. He's there, and he works for your happiness.
I know this arrest thing is very stressful, but I think when you look back on it from 10 years further on, it will rate about a .05 on the importance scale. (Scale from 1 to 10)
Mostly I worry about the state of mind that got you there. I admit I still worry. Forgive me that because I know you can take care of yourself. I probably won't change any time soon.
Glad P is spending time with you. Glad you are taking a vacation. May it be a happy one for both of you.
I am strugling with the fact that I have had enough, and when is it going to end.
I read that story notso posted about David and Bathsheba, and you know I keep asking what I need to ask forgiveness for. I have two things which I know I did were really wrong, Dan was one and supplying the vodka to my dad which killed him was the other.
But I don't find it in my heart to feel bad about either one anymore. My dad was dying, and his throat was gone from cancer of the asophogus. There was no hope and he was in so much pain. I can't regret what I did, he begged me let him die.
And as far as Dan, I am sorry for the part I played in hurting his wife even though I didn't know he had one. But I am not sorry I loved him.
I wonder constantly if it is my lack of remorse which is keeping me on Gods bad side. Although I had severe remorse for both those acts for a very long time, I don't anymore. I feel I paid and now enough is enough.
Oh well, I'll keep talking to Him about it. Maybe eventually He will answer me.
Weaver, hmmm...let me think and pray about that. I am a bit shaky myself today so probably not a good time for me to answer that one. Yes, keep talking to Him. Sometimes His answers come in ways we are not even aware of or would expect.
I know that arrest is nothing. Aside from the night in jail, the huge money lost to me, and the treatment the police dished out...well it is not something which cause me to lose sleep.
It was really a blessing, as I dislike the bar life but thought I needed to be a certain kind of person again. And now I have a reason to not go to the bars. As Pep said, it was the wrong door.
It came on the first night I went to the bar and my first date, so it told me "choose again, this is not you". Now I don't even feel I have to date now. And that brings me peace too.
I saw where your H was posting here too. How nice!
Well I can't stay here any longer tonight, I have some tapes on healing emotional pain (subliminal) I need to go listen to. Oh and a gratitude journal I've been keeping.
Hope to be able to stay longer when you are around next time SLH!
Don't you think that if we could have the kinds of friends in real life we meet on here, our lives would be so different? I do. I know exactly what your H is talking about with him and Gray.
Don't you think that if we could have the kinds of friends in real life we meet on here, our lives would be so different? I do. I know exactly what your H is talking about with him and Gray.
Yes, I do. I have two good friends IRL but both have young kids so I don't get to spend quality time with them. DS keeps me busy too. Ironic that some of the people I love and know best are cyber friends.
Here's another quote - "If you go down the wrong road --make a RIGHT turn." "With any luck, we all become a little bit wiser while moving down life's highway - just make a RIGHT turn".
And....I don't think you're on God's bad side - it's simply not possible. He doesn't have a bad side!
Weaver, I can't do it. I love her, I'm sad for her. And yet, what she did to car4love and her children... for that I'm disappointed in her and I don't like her.
It feels as if reaching out in kindness to her would give her a "pass".
I have this illusion that if I ever communicate with her again, what I say will actually matter to her, and could change something in her. And that is such a crazy illusion. It's like drawing a picture of a dog and expecting the paper to start barking at you.
Letting go of that ghost, that imaginary power, is what I'm up against right now. It's not as hard as letting go of my attachment to my wife, so I'm not all that worried about it.
FF, weaver, I'll have a thought for you both tonight.
And....I don't think you're on God's bad side - it's simply not possible. He doesn't have a bad side!
This is what I was raised to believe, and this is the entire message of ACIM, isn't it? But then on this website I read fundalmentalist Christian views and it confuses me as to what/who God (and Jesus) is and their message of love. I have to stop reading that stuff, it really effects me, even if I know better. (no offense to anyone else reading whose beliefs are along the fundamentalist Christian side)
Thanks Csue, you remind me of my beliefs and the joy my love for God brought to me at one time.
Weaver, I can't do it. I love her, I'm sad for her. And yet, what she did to car4love and her children... for that I'm disappointed in her and I don't like her.
It feels as if reaching out in kindness to her would give her a "pass".
Yes, you do need to work on letting go of your illusion of power.
Sparrow already has a "pass" Gray, and it did not/will not come from you. She has a "pass" because she is a child of the universe, and like ALL of us she is imperfect and made a bad choice which hurt others.
However if you love someone, you love them regardless of their bad choices.
Reaching out to her in love and forgiveness will free you Gray, and it might free her enough to be able to look at what she has done and begin the long, painful road of bringing her tattered soul back from the darkness she is surely in.
You even said you cared about her. Is this care so conditional that you offer it only when she reciprocates, or when her slate is clean?
(I was wrong before, in my views of her wretchedness. I forgot to take the log out of my own eye, so my opinion was grossly flawed and I saw my own sins in what they were doing.)
And I know how badly car4love and you are/have been hurt. But you are the lucky ones Gray, because you did not hurt others. Can you imagine living a life which was beget by the kind of pain theirs was?
I'm not trying to force you to change your beliefs regarding forgiveness, I just know now that it is the only way to freedom. We offer forgiveness (unspoken) by caring for someone after they have hurt us, and it frees both. It really does. You hurt yourself when you withhold this, waiting for amends to be made and hurts to be acknowledged because you hold your own love in bondage. Don't under estimate the power of love, it is a gift and one that should be offered freely and without expectations of reciprocation.
This is the only thing that saved my sanity through my ordeal these last two and a half months.
I'll shut up now Gray, but please think about it. (I see it happening in you whether you want it to or not. Your perspective is changing, I think.)
...I just know now that it is the only way to freedom. We offer forgiveness (unspoken) by caring for someone after they have hurt us, and it frees both. It really does. You hurt yourself when you withhold this, waiting for amends to be made and hurts to be acknowledged because you hold your own love in bondage. Don't under estimate the power of love, it is a gift and one that should be offered freely and without expectations of reciprocation...
You even said you cared about her. Is this care so conditional that you offer it only when she reciprocates, or when her slate is clean?
Obviously not. She's my XW. I don't expect anything from her. If I did something like that and she reciprocated, I wouldn't even know what to think. I'd think she was on a doomed passenger flight.
Did you ever sit back and really think about the process of crying? It really doesn't make much sense, does it.
It begins, for me anyway, as an ache. A purely physical ache. Often in my throat, sometimes in my eyes. I can put that ache off for days if I have to. It's better, easier on me, if I don't. When I was in the middle of the worst of things, I learned to actually hurry my tears along. More about that later.
It aches. And aches. And aches some more. In shooting lines from upper arms to trapezius muscles, as if there is a thread of agony that is activated there when I'm upset.
In the very worst of times, it makes my hands hurt. So badly that I can hardly use them. Funny that emotional pain should have such a physical manifestation.
And somewhere in there, the tears begin. A stinging at the corners of the eyes as the tear ducts begin to work overtime. I think the sting must be the extra salt, as if those first few tears get an extra dose or something.
Somewhere in the upper part of my nose, something opens up, also aching. And the nostrils flair, probably getting ready for things to come. I'm sure there's some anatomical name for all these goings-on.
The first tears don't fall. They swim around in my eyes, blurring everything I see. Blinding me to the things around me. I let them fall. It seems to me there used to be fewer of them when I was a child and a teenager and a twenty-something. It seems to me that something broke open somewhere along the way, and there are many more tears now. So I let them fall.
Crying is darned hard work when you're really doing it. You know the kind of crying I mean. Not the delicate beauty of a few tears. I mean the kind where your whole body starts to shake. The kind where your face scrunches up into a grimace so tight that the muscle of your face scream. The kind where, if you're somewhere private, you wail, and if you're somewhere that you might be overheard and embarassed, there are quiet squeaking whimpers.
Somewhere in there you realize you've gotten your pillow or your jacket or your backpack -- or whatever you've got to cling to -- soaking wet. So you turn it over or around or you shift, and you're not done. You hold your face in your hands, trying desperately to ease the aching agony that is crying. Feeling the sobs wrench through your body. Somewhere in there, there's a quiet calm voice that asks, Why am I crying? and often there is no answer. It just is. An overwhelming agony of loneliness or sadness or grief that has no one source and no one solution. It just is.
Somewhere along the way somewhere, the wrenching muscular work that is called sobbing clears out what it needs to clear. Sometimes you feel better. Often you don't. More often than not, I stop when I can no longer breathe.
That's a step in the right direction. I remember when I would stop and find kleenex and blow my nose and blow it again because I couldn't breathe. And then I would continue crying. Sobbing. And it would last until I was so exhausted that I literally couldn't move -- and nothing would be better. I would stop only because the exhaustion wouldn't let me continue.
After the tears fade, there's something clearer, sometimes. It seems to me that some tension in the muscles, some waste product of the hormones of stress and anxiety and fear and grief, is broken down in the midst of crying.
There is lassitude. Exhaustion. The aches in the body fade. There's swollen nose and red eyes to contend with. There's a desperate need for sleep.
There's some kind of peace, sometimes. Some kind of shift in energy, some kind of chaotic emotional release.
Crying is, I think, a blessing more than it is a curse. But it's still a painful blessing.
I know. With the exception of the letter I proposed you write, I was talking about in your head. In your mind, heart...inner world. This is where healing begins. Has nothing to do with her directly but may help her indirectly.
Plus the focus on blame and the nasty connotations of the the word betrayal which is prevalient on this site bothers me now. I think it keeps us stuck, and for me I think it was very bad for me this past year. I never looked at my own faults at all, as I could put all the blame on him. Maybe he made a choice I would not have made but that does not make him a bad person. We all have our faults, some just more obvious than others.
I want to live in a world where I can forgive easily, and let the hurt go. I want to be able at some point in the future if fate would have it, to have a friendship with Dan. Maybe more, but for now he has his own path to travel without me.
But then I never was too stuck on marriage vows since I have never made them. Maybe had there been vows involved my forgiveness would not come so easily.
Which when you said you worry about her made me think of all of this anyway.
And JJ, yes crying IS a blessing. I know that feeling of panic and the times when it actually hurts to breathe.
Do you remember the times in the beginning when the pain was so great that the tears wouldn't come? Mercy, that was some big pain.
Peaches (dwarf tree) are getting ripe - two or three a day. Had peaches and cream yesterday, but just milk today. Ran out of cream.
Grapes are ready too, packed some in my lunch.
I see you are a good cook, as well as having all the other talents you have.
I haven't cried "all out" for about three years. Funny the things that can bring us to tears. Have shed tears over people on MB - but not the racking sobs that come from love lost, or something of similar import.
As always, you are welcome to come by on the way home from work and get some tomatoes. I think we can spare some peaches too, if you want some.
Life continues to be interresting. Hard some days, but interresting. I hope your world is a little brighter today than it was yesterday.
Doing some laundry here, leaving in the am for only one night. Funds a little tight right now.
Tomato's and peaches sound heavenly. I do have some home grown cukes someone brought over. They are very good.
No fruit here this summer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Next year is the year for reaping for me I think. This year is the year for sowing. (oh I hope, I hope, I hope LOL)
SLH said: SS, things were changing. . . and then stopped. Same old same old.
Somehow I thought that the seriousness of our last conversation – the fact that I would be taking to the foothills if he couldn't display some serious effort – would have enabled him to at least work on our M. Not so.
Tell me if this was a bad week, or if you still feel this way. It's important, and both of us need to know.
I have been trying to be a wonderful wife, loving, sensitive, kind. I tell him that I love him all the time. I thank him with words & affection for being my husband. I ask what I can do for him.
This weekend I blew it. I was tired of trying to be strong for us both only to see no indication of anything on his part, still. I was weary from daily expressing my love, only to have him answer an unenthusiastic “Mmmmm-hmmmm,” to my ILYs. I was sick of him not being motivated to do ANYTHING, even take responsibility of the girls occasionally.
Look how important this is/was to you.
Maybe we should talk about life and how it goes. I see that he has written a little here, I hope he reads this too.
You may be surprised at this, but most people have a skewed idea of what life is really like. I am speaking about the dream of "living happily ever after."
You see, I believe in it. I really do. Most people think it's a myth, but I don't.
We know life is going to be difficult. We expect swear, and the occasional tears, and we say "that's just the way it is."
Well, it is. Life is hard, and it won't change, but I still say we can live happily ever after. (Except for the occasional fight with our spouse, that is always so hard on me.)
First, you have to come to agreement on what it is that you both want. Not what you THINK you want, but what you really want.
Do you want to be strapped like you are for money? Do you want to continue to loose love for him, and does he want that? Are you happy with no vacations, and little time together?
If you are not, then why do you think it has to be that way? Why is it that way?
I can guarantee that it will stay that way unless you change it. YOU - plural. The two of you. You know, working together, as a team. Using your strengths, each of you doing the parts you do best.
If he loves you, he will want to help. If he loves you, he WILL help. If you love him, you won't let him continue using up all his time at WORK. Even if he enjoys work, that is not what is best for him. I know you understand.
Now, lets look at the HOW of this.
We are not spendthrifts, we have gone without many nice things (vacations, new cars, "toys", etc – heck, we don't even buy Christmas or Birthday gifts for each other because they cost too much, just the kids! but we are still taking on more water than we are baling out. I *know* what it is like to be “tired”. And yet I have tried and am still trying for our M.
And that, my friends, is the crux of our problem. He is depressed. He has too much on his plate and now, having to deal with me, “makes it even more overwhelming”.
*Bills (including a $500 electric bill; we know not why and don't have the $ to have looked into, but our SAHM’ neighbor's is $120). *Our house, falling apart as we speak (leaking plumbing, H2O bubbling up under the foundation; the reason FOR the $500 elec bill, awful wiring, etc) *Not even being able to afford all of our prescriptions (ADs included), just the kids. No time for ourselves, for our marriage. *No ability to get away, if even for a date (we have small children)
When we DO have a few moments together to enjoy each other, we are so wrapped up in our own miseries and inability to deal with them that we cannot enjoy the moment.
First you need to decide what you really want. I suggest that most people get out of life that which they want most.
I hear people say "I want to be rich, and famous," then they watch TV all day. I disagree most of the time. People that REALLY want to be rich and famous are spending their time becoming just that. You follow me?
Now, I am not aiming this AT YOU. I am suggesting that you need to look at what you want, and then make it happen. Some people don't make it happen because they don't know it's possible. Some because it is too much effort. I don't think the effort is the problem for you. I think you are stuck, and it will only take a little effort to get you moving along.
So, what do you want? What kind of life style?
Me, I don't want to be rich. I think perhaps I could be, if I worked for that. What I want is family time, time to help others, and a decent standard of living. I want recreation time, time with my family, time with my W. I want to be respected in my field of labor, I want to do a good job, but I won't spend the time to do a great job, because it cuts into my family time.
God said "by the sweat of thy face thou shalt eat thy bread all the days of thy life." I dont' want to get out of work, but neither do I want to die from it, or divorce because of it.
Now, when you want something, you simply do the things that will bring it to you. People try to make it more complicated than it is. It really is that simple. Easy? No, but simple, yes.
If you don't want 500 per month utility bills, you move. Commute too long? Change jobs, or move closer to work. House payment to high? Increase income, or get a different house.
I could go on, but you can see.
All to often, we wait for our circumstances to change on their own, when we should be looking into how to CHANGE THEM OURSELVES.
We say things like "If only the business would take off, we would be comfortable." We have choices - Stay and live with it - Change jobs - and I always include a third one - Listen to God, and do what he suggests. He knows things we do not, and he may have us stay when logic tells us to leave. This has happened to me - I understand it can happen to you. Note, I understand it is not always easy to read God's playbook. Sometimes it takes months of prayer, and thought to know.
You have lots of variables, but it boils down to just a few things. Move Change jobs Get them to pay Ti more.
Now again - often we feel limited by what goes on around us, but you can change things. Most people do it backwards, they get in to a house and a job and wish things were different. What is more important, is what is WANTED, and then to figure out what changes are needed to make things as they are wanted.
I don't mean stuff like "We want a $25.00 per month house payment, for a million dollar house." I mean, pick out of the real world the lifestyle you want, then make it real for you. There are people that live on half of what you make. Where do they live? And more important, HOW do they live?
It could be as simple as driving around some neighborhoods near to where Ti works, and asking people how the schools are, and how much the homes cost.
Now - it would be great if he will work with you on this. There are lots, and lots of options, from a different house, to different jobs. I hope he will help, and I believe he will............but I don't know.
You have options alone. You can live with it as it is, or you can work with him to change it, or you can leave. I know which option is the best one, but these are your choices. You don't have to live with things as they are - you really don't. MB is full of folks that made the changes - both those that made it work, and those that left. I see many that left that are happy, and healthy, and doing well. Dont' tell me you couldn't, because I wouldn't believe you. Graycloud makes a good living, he would jump at the chance to date you if you were single. BTW, I am not trying to be funny, or encourage anything but simply lay out the facts. Gray is a gentleman, I don't expect him to comment, but options exist.
But can I get him to look elsewhere for another job, even in another city, anything to IMPROVE things? No. Those rare moments when he is not putting some fire out at our house, he is too depressed to want to do anything towards improving things. And the sad thing is, I understand that. Lately I don’t feel like doing anything either. I don’t know how we function.
I will say that this last argument ENDED well – he realizes this and that, promises to work on changes, etc. But then he always says this, doesn't he? And we always end up back where we were.
So unless I am committed to bludgeoning my head against his walls each and every time he erects them in order to get thru to the man, it looks like I have lost.
You lost? Lost what?
You may loose him......... but loose life? Loose happiness? Loose joy? NO !
Your life is out there waiting to happen. I can witness that there is joy after your thirties. Lots of fun, lots of happiness, lots of joy.
"Happy are those that dream dreams, and are willing to pay the price to make them come true."
If he won't work with you, you can make changes by yourself, and see if he wants to come. More difficult, not as much fun, but possible. We live in the real world, and it molds us, but it seldom controls us. We have lots of choices.
Part of me wants to hang on -- a big part of me. But then I look at myself in five years -- just like I did five years Past, and wonder if I will be in the same miserable place, or if he will have woken up. Am I selfish for feeling like I DESERVE more? (Help me, FF!) That my life is rushing past me and I am just standing here, immobilized by the very thing I love?
Will I regret staying, with so little effort from Him?
It is sad, but I think [blue]money[/color] would solve many of our problems. And no, NOT the lottery, just enough to pay the freakin' bills; to get by. To not have to worry about the electricity being cut off again, or how we are going to afford to bring the youngest to the doc for her UTI, or where we are going to get the surprise $50 copay for her Rx.
Remember God. He knows what is needed, he knows what is best. If you search for solutions with all your heart, do all that you can, then call upon him for help, he will help you. Look at the options. Our children have been to 4 different elementary schools. We never wanted it to be that way. It has turned out better than we ever dreamed.
I realize everyone has problems -- just different ones, so I don't know how to measure the seriousness of this. I only know that I am desperately tired of this all.
This is very serious. What could be more serious - it is life threatening. If not dealt with, it could mean divorce - and what threatens life for children more than that? Speaking of emotional life, not physical life.
You are riding the roller coaster, but the lows are getting lower. My belief is that time is running out. Even if it is not, why wait?
You don't need to loose. Why would you think that way?
Take a look at the things that are really important to you. Some call it "thinking outside the box." Things are not always what they seem.
SS, I just checked in and saw that you had written me. Thank you.
Can you give me a little while to respond? Ti's job had a meeting yesterday where they informed all (16) of their employees that they did not have the money to hand out paychecks today, but that they hoped they'd have it by next week. They aren't sure if they will have any contracts coming in to pay him for his paycheck after that.
When Ti's Boss/the owner of the company coaxed him into divulging how bad things where for us financially, the owner & owner's wife signed over to us the last $42 left in their own account plus a rebate check they had been meaning to deposit in their own acct.
They have currently dumped all of their savings, etc into the floundering company, so have no more to give us.
I am moved to tears by their generousity, truly. But will that pay off the elec bill before they come to disconnect Monday?
I look at this as an opportunity; an awakening. Who knows what we could do, when put in dire enough circumstances? This is when people shine, transcend, become something amazing. Who knows what blessings await us if only we look?
But does Ti really want to look?
Ti has some kind of twisted loyalty to this company. They really could not lose him; the company would not survive. I don't mean to sound like a braggart, but he is the genius behind that company. But I feel his continued loyalty is misplaced, and yet he clings to it. Because of the promises made him "when things get better"; because of the fact he can't let them down, because he is bound to be rewarded for all of his hard work "one day".
I am just frusturated.
I would like Ti to read what you wrote. I will print it out for him.
Thank you for listening. I need a friend right now.
SLH - just read only the last post you put here. I will send up a prayer for you.
I am learning something that my FIL said to me when I exposed WW to him. (He thought something was going on - his little girl stopped calling him). He told me the character that I will build through this - the man I will be when I emerge on the other side of this - would boggle my mind. I did not understand.
I now understand.
The heat of tempering hurts. But like you said - in times of great diversity we transcend to survive.
I just finished reading your thread. I have no input now but want you to know I am thinking of you. Prayers, lovey.
JJ, you speak for us all. I've never in my life cried like I have these last 8 months. Not even when I was 10, and my parents divorced.
2Long, have you been in contact with Aphelion? I think of him all the time.
Gray, I couldn't quite justify writing the letter either. Feeling it is one thing. Forgiving others their transgressions is always good, and something I strive for. But for those receiving our redemption, those not especially struck with repentance, or sorrow or remorse for their actions, it would seem like a pass.
And although I may no longer harbor any animosity, I could not quite condone that.
SLH, I remember a book about a family who decided to make it. Some business somewhere and I don't remember where or the details. But I remember what they did, what they sacrificed. No furniture, nothing but a tiny one-bedroom apartment, nothing to eat a lot of days. True poverty.
They made it.
It sounds to me like that boss is a man of true, honest-to-god integrity. That's unusual and more than unusual. I understand loyalty to that, even in the face of what seems like a death knell.
It's not crazy. It's what keeps us humans alive, because we're weak and foolish by ourselves, and our communities give us life. The work that Ti does is not just the work. It's the community and the life.
I know how worried and frightened you are. I would be too. And what I want to know is why this company is floundering. If Ti is the genius, what's missing? (Companies need lots more than genuises to stay afloat.)
I'm not a genius, and I've never had to take on running a business. My boss does that and I'm glad he's there to do it. It's a tough job that he doesn't get nearly enough credit for.
So... I'm just wondering what that little bit of extra chemistry is. They're right on the edge of getting up to the next level. Something little might take them there.
Gray, I couldn't quite justify writing the letter either. Feeling it is one thing. Forgiving others their transgressions is always good, and something I strive for. But for those receiving our redemption, those not especially struck with repentance, or sorrow or remorse for their actions, it would seem like a pass.
And although I may no longer harbor any animosity, I could not quite condone that.
The illusion of any power over my XW is just that. If that's true, then telling her I forgive her is as pointless as telling her she's a criminal. Doesn't the telling assume the same imaginary power, regardless of the message?
The important thing is to release myself from resentment and from cherishing my own pain. Whether or not I communicate that experience to my XW is irrelevant.
Whether or not that's forgiveness is open to debate.
I think of her with compassion. I suffer now, not because she hurt me, but because she hurt herself. My attachment to her is gone, and I still hurt for her. Thinking of the desert her soul travels in makes me ache. I know my love for her is real. It's not obsession, dependency, or a misplaced attachment. It carries no expectation. I'm ready to never speak to her again. I want to meet someone new. I want a clean start. But knowing how she's been diminished, and knowing I played a role in it, leaves me with a wealth of sorrow.
Wonderful. That and about $3.00 will get me a nice cafe au lait.
SS, S&G's music is incredibly powerful. There's a kernel of human truth in that music that... describing it doesn't do it justice. I'm listening to "Bookends" right now, and since I was a boy, this song has made me want to cry. I've been listening to this music since playing my dad's copy of the Greatest Hits record when I was little, 30 years ago, and it still has the same effect.
SS, you asked where is my heart; where do I want it to be.
I'm okay with where it is right now. Things are going to change soon. My circumstances are going to change. For whatever's coming, I'm wiiiiiiiiiiiiide open.
SLH, FF, I'm thinking about you two. And weaver, you are the best.
Okay, I have to meet my friend for a ride around the lake in a few hours, so I'd better get to sleep. There's a Belgian waffle at the end of the line. Night all.
SLH, I remember a book about a family who decided to make it. . . But I remember what they did, what they sacrificed. No furniture, nothing but a tiny one-bedroom apartment, nothing to eat a lot of days. True poverty.
They made it.
Oh, babe, I hope I don't sound stubborn or arrogant. I apologize if I do. I *do* know what it's like to live as you describe. The first 5 or so years of marriage were similar to this (though they progressively got better). Tiny living space, food stamps, WIC, medicaid. No telephone for most of the years, salvation army clothes and plates, boiling water for baths sometimes when it was below freezing. There were even a few times in the beginning that I remember chewing on grass to fill me up because I knew there was only so much food to go around, and I knew Ti and my DD had to eat too.
I learned so much about myself at that time. It was humbling, challenging, and character-provoking.
But we were hopeful. Ti was in school, and our lack was all for a good cause. We could endure anything, knowing that there was an end in sight.
I guess now, so much later, I am just so damn tired. Things have improved, definitely. But we are still drowning. That "End in Sight" proved only to be a (somewhat better) extension of what we had always gone through, only worse so in that we have no specific relief in sight and that knowledge puts Ti & I at eachother's throats in our exhaustion, need and frustration. And Ti is stubbornly hanging on to the hope that things have "got to get better", right here. But without an end in sight, it's easy to lose hope. And we just keep hemhorraging.
It's not crazy. It's what keeps us humans alive, because we're weak and foolish by ourselves, and our communities give us life. The work that Ti does is not just the work. It's the community and the life.
Don't get me wrong, guys. I agreed with this entirely for the first 3 years of his employment there. But so many contracts haven't come through, so many employment reviews (read as, raise assessments) haven't worked out due to their lack of funds, etc, that I guess I've gotten disillusioned. "I promise I will make it worth your time and effort" is a refrain we've heard countless times from his boss. He has good intentions. He has motivations. But will it really work out this time? Ikes.
And what I want to know is why this company is floundering. If Ti is the genius, what's missing? (Companies need lots more than genuises to stay afloat.)
Why is it floundering? No big contracts. Small company, trying to make a name for itself after 10 years or so.(The kind of place Ti said he always thought he could make a difference). Not to mention NASA's thrashing death throes after the Columbia disaster. . . not a lot of money on that front.
Ti's just an employee, and an engineer, to boot. Though he has the boss's ear for a number of things, how to run the company isn't one of them. He's just the Imagination Guy, the dreamer who designs things that have the potential to be great. Getting those ideas out there and in the industry's general public is the job of the management ppl, and the boss. Guess that's not getting done, huh? Thus the sinking ship.
The last big job they were banking on was a British Petroleum job out in the Gulf (of Mexico). A huge amount of money was spent on new, innovative but-yet-unproven technology, and everyone in the industry was watching, holding their breaths to see if what Ti's company did, really worked. These prospective companies were lined up to drop their checkbooks, too. But then Hurricane Dennis swept through and [color:"blue"] knocked the rig on it's side[/color] (it actually sank more than this photo shows in the following days -- up to 1/5 of the top of the platform was beneath the waves). All of the research, all of the hardware and programs, everything went underwater. . .
. . . before Ti and the company had a chance to prove that this new technology could work, and beautifully! Now all of the companies holding the potential contracts they were hoping for, (upon demonstration that this new technology *did* work), sprinted off. I don't blame them; they had no proof.
Foolish for the company to hold out hope for this one project to solve all their financial needs? Yep! Should they have had back-up plan? Yep!
But as Aphelion says, that's all primary phase H2O under the structural span.
Does any of this make sense, or explain why I am feeling/acting/whining so much? I hope so. I hate for y'all to think I am just complaining without basis. (Not that anyone has ever implied so; I just care alot about what you guys think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) After years of just hanging on, of struggling and clawing and seeking, I am just tired. The land of Milk & Honey has proven to be harder to attain than I ever dared imagine. All I want to do is get by, by just paying my bills, you know? But I think Ti & I disagree on how that might be achieved.
Will write mre later. About to help Ti work on the outlets in the house.
SLH, YOU don't need to worry about the company, or how it is doing. YOU need to worry about YOU, and YOUR CHILDREN.
God knows about the rest of it, and if Ti should stay, or leave. Use your best judgement about what to do, and then pray about it.
I have been where you are too - and we said "Well, at least it can't get any worse." This statement proved how little of the gift of prophecy we had at the time.
More later, when I have time.
Don't give up hope. You won't loose as long as you are doing all you can.
Guys, please talk me down. I am having another one of those days.
Ti called this morning to let me know that he'd be going out of town this week, for work. That'd be fine except that he is leaving Thursday night, and our 11 year anniversary is Friday the 26th.
This alone would not have me upset (well, not that much). But couple it with the fact that he was out of town for our last two anniversaries, our oldest DDs last two birthdays, a few other DD's birthdays scattered over the last few years, my last birthday, Valentine's Day, etc, to name just a few. I am fed up.
It is always some emergency offshore. And "no one else" can do the work he can with the programs and the hardware or the designs, as he was the mastermind behind it all. So I am left making excuses for his absences, to myself and the kids (on their birthdays).
We hardly look like a priority, huh?
I know that he has been trying to make an impression lo these last 5 years. He has been working on making himself invaluable to this company so that he will be indespensible to them (thus translating into a larger paycheck). Well, he has done just that. But where has it gotten him, or us? And at what cost?
If it weren't for him making calls home all the time while using the offshore satellite phone (and it registering so on the caller ID), it would tend to look like an affair, wouldn't it? An escapist affair.
So now that there is a bona fide "emergency" (keeping the company afloat) how can I insist he not go? I'm not aware of the seriousness of waiting a day or two; I am ignorant of much in this industry.
I am surprised at the lack of emotion I am feeling. Is this dangerous ground? Am I on autopilot or losing love? Or is it just depression?
Should I not put so much emphasis on the actual "date" and instead rejoice in the "spirit of the date" and what it represents? Maybe it's a foolish habit, but I've always loved celebrating holidays on their actual date. Makes it easier to look back and see where you've come from.
It's so easy to feel like the martyr here. Someone kick me.
I'm sorry about monopolizing the thread, guys. Please forgive me.
In the short term, if this is his pay check, then I am sure he is saying "What else can I do?"
I the long term, this needs to befixed so it works for both of you.
I must go for now, but will have more time to talk in a few hours.
We'll help you - OK?
And don't feel like you are monopolizing the thread - I can't believe you said that. (Says SS grinning from ear to ear) Isn't this what it's for? Hasn't Gray said every one is welcome? I think I know him well enough to say he was sincere when he said it. I am sure of it.
You can feel like a martyr, and sorry, but I won't kick you. I figure talking it out will do more good.
I missed my W's Bday for years, to attend a trade show. Would still miss it had they not moved it up a week.
No, you are not crazy, but we can talk. I think it will help.
SS, when it comes down to it, I'm not sure there is much you or anyone else could advise that would help me change his behavior. . . or even my reaction to it. But you are right -- talking about it has done me good. Thanks for listening. I needed it, a shoulder to lay my head for a few moments. Sometimes my fatigue is blinding in its need.
Was your W always content with you missing her b-day? Was that the only holiday you missed?
PS -- I like Asimov, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You should know by now that we care how you are feeling. We care about Ti, and how his job goes. We care about your daughters, and we want their parents to be in love. Often is is, that I wish we could do more for your family.
If I help, you are very welcome.
My W was NEVER content for me to miss her B day.
I did do things to make up for it, as much as I could do.
(this is later, when I began to "GET IT." )
Early on, I just told her that was how it was, and to get used to it. BAD CHOICE, VERY, VERY BAD CHOICE.
As I learned, I realized that her feelings were important, and I needed to take care of her better so she would feel loved, and cared for no matter if I could be there or not.
So, there was always a card for her, and a bouquet of flowers. In the card was the promise of a gift, and the promise of a special time when I got back.
Celebrating on THE DAY was important to her until I started taking care of her like that, then for some reason it didn't seem to matter so much. See, she knew I cared, and that I would take care of her. She felt special, cared for, needed, wanted........ she knew she was loved.
Now, we tend to do something on her B-day, but we take a trip together mid Sept (between our b-days) and we take great joy in spending time together. Over night, two or three nights.
Asimov was always one of my favorites - his writings were free of the sex and violence that many felt was needed to sell stories. I think he was one of the greats of the last century.
I'm listening to SLH. SS, when you said "Early on, I just told her that was how it was, and to get used to it. BAD CHOICE, VERY, VERY BAD CHOICE. " That could have been my H saying that. I think those beliefs are turning around slowly.
SLH, making big changes in your life can be difficult. There's fear of the unknown, fear of change, and a feeling that making a change means you're abandoning your past.
Those are all negative impulses, requiring courage to overcome. Overcoming those fears and doubts is a real act of love, not just for others, but for yourself.
I think even genuine loyalty can be clouded by this kind of FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt).
The other night, for laughs, I signed up with an online dating outfit as I was starting to drift off. I've gotten several responses. I looked over a bunch of profiles. The women who have expressed an interest in me look good in their photos and most seem interesting, but the more I look things over, the more I want to tell everybody "no thanks" and yank my profile off there. Something about it just feels off - like it's too easy. I was not afraid to ask real women out - though approching them out of the blue is a horror show. But dealing with a constant barrage of women who are interested in me because of my photo and profile on a website is somehow unappealing. Yet, it feels a little like I'm just being a chicken.
I don't want to hurt anybody either, and that's bugging me.
Anyway, see how our problems have similarities? Ti's loyalty might be partly knit from attachment to past plans and fear of an unknown future. My hesitation with dating is partly knit from a fear of reaching out to the world, getting hurt, and also having to hurt others.
But the status quo won't work, not for me at least.
Graycloud, I dreamed two dreams about you Saturday night/Sunday morning.
In the first (which was very abstract, and which I am loosing fast, but I made notes) We were going somewhere in a car. Not yours, not mine. I was driving. You were picking out a tune on your guitar. (I said it was abstract.) I told you that you sounded good, better than someone else we could hear playing the same thing in the background (have no idea who it was, or where they were, but it was not the radio.)
You said "Ah, I'm ok, I guess, but not as good as some."
I said, "No, you are really good, I have heard "blank" do this song, and you do it so much better." I am not sure who I named. Perhaps Jonny Rivers?
This was the song.
Summer Rain taps at my window West wind soft as a sweet dream My love, warm as the sunshine Sitting here by me, yeah She's here by me She stepped out of a rainbow Golden hair shining like moonglow Warm lips, soft as her soul Sitting here by me, now She's here by me All summer long we were dancing in the sand Everybody just kept on playing "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" We sailed into the sunset Drifting home, caught by a gulf stream Never gave a thought for tomorrow Let tomorrow be, yeah Let tomorrow be She wants to live in the Rockies She says that's where we'll find peace Settle down, raise up a family One to call our own, yeah We'll have a home All summer long we were grooving in the sand Everybody just kept on playing "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" Winter snows drift by my window North wind blowing like thunder Our love is burning like fire And she's here by me, yeah She's here by me Let tomorrow be
That dream ended, and then, I was in another one.
This one.
I was driving again, with someone else. Not sure who, but this one seemed much more real.
We pulled into your driveway. It wasn't really your house, but it looked sorta like it. There was a detached garage, but your car was gone. For some reason I expected you to be there. We sat in the driveway for a while, car running - thinking. Who ever I was with told me "it looks like he is gone, shall we go?"
I sat and waited, knowing somehow that I needed to wait for you. I told them "no, we need to wait, he will be here soon."
For some reason, it was important to me to talk to you. Maybe it is that you are important - perhaps that was it. I think it may have been that. Meaning, you are worth a great deal, and I wanted to do whatever I could do for you because I knew your worth, and didn't want to just let it go.
I woke up before you got there. This one was vivid, and seemed real. It is still vivid, setting there in the driveway. It began to rain while I was there. Light rain, and it was evening.
I have no idea, but it was fun.
SS
Not sure why I quoted S&G. Sometimes things come to me. I was almost afraid to post that one, because you once said you got tired of that era, because it was forced upon you.
Faithful, I was just being "logical." She was being "silly."
So I thought.
But then, I started to learn. Oh what an education.
Graycloud says things well - sometimes he gets the feelings down so real.
Faithful, thats why I asked about the three months.
In three months, you will be able to tell if there is progress, or if he is just blowing smoke.
How did the weekend go at your house?
One more thing( and my W pointed this out to one of our daughters in law Friday night, when her H was late to W's B-day dinner.) She said, "Remember, Still Seeking is much older than your H, and he didn't start go get it until 4-5 years ago." Whereupon DIL looked shocked, and said "OH NO, don't tell me I have to wait that long."
It did take me a long time, but Gray has it now, so there is hope. (Or he has most of it, he may protest, but I'll let this stand.)
Saw a rainbow in the mountains - what a nice end to the day. Rainbow
SLH, and Faithful, This is what life is about for us. It's family, it's being together, and enjoying life. Now, we get our work done,we didn't leave home until 3 in the afternoon, after we weeded the yard, and mopped the floors. But, you have to take time.........to watch the rainbows.
Oh, oh. Need some advice. This has happened before.
I've been invited to an event. I want to go, and I feel an obligation to go. I don't know if sparrow is invited too. It's possible. I absolutely, positively, do not want to be in the same place as those people.
Options:
1) go - risk seeing sparrow and OM and be brave and be a good friend, 2) don't go - avoid seeing sparrow and OM and be a coward and a not-so-good friend, 3) ask if sparrow will be there, and if not, a) go, otherwise b) don't go
I don't think I should ask. Crud. I have to rely on these people to know better than to invite sparrow and me to the same place.
Can I? Possibly. 60/40 in favor of sparrow not being invited.
I could contact the person and just have a chat, feel them out without asking directly.
ASK! For goodness sake your friends know what you have been through and you should not feel obligated to attend if sparrow is going to be there. Oh, and be direct GC.
"You may or may not know that Sparrow and have just been through a messy divorce. It would break my heart to see her now, is there a chance she was invited too?"
SLH, I'm so sorry for upsetting you. You've been through it and then some, it sounds like. I hope you and Ti find a way to agree on what to do next.
GC: Ask.
Still Seeking: Beautiful rainbow. And beautiful kids and granddaughter, too. Thank you for sharing. I still hope there is a man closer to my age and geographic location who understands what you understand.
J, God has a way of making things work when you are ready.
I have thought a lot about what you have said. I can (and hereby do) credit you with as much or more than you do me. I have read some of your posts on SYMC. You are very, very good at helping.
I think about what you said about having children. I mourn for your loss. I think you can have joy in spite of limitations. I am sure of it.
There may come a time when those limitations can be swept away. I still see that street with children playing. Some of them may be yours.
There is much evil in the world, but also much good. May the good overtake us all, and fill our lives.
Don't you dare bow your head in shame now. You go and you hold yourself high, you show them that they will not get to you. You laugh, you have fun...take a good friend with you so as not to have any awkward alone periods.
Gray, you face this fear now knowing that we will all be looking over you in spirit.
You are a big, wonderful man and now you get to prove it.
We had a really good time SS. We ended up going down state about three hours and booked a room at a place with a pool and hot tub. And we shopped and ate out, and watched a movie.
We had such a good time. I love that little girl! She is back at her Dad's now though, but we decided that we were going to make it a tradition and go once a year to a hotel just the two of us.
It was wonderful SS and I am so glad I decided to spend the money I didn't have because we needed that.
I don't know... Okay, I'll assume no unwelcome eyes are gazing at my posts. I can hardly imagine they are.
The event is being held by one of my XWW's oldest friends. It's a going-away party for her 15-year-old son, who is going to spend a year overseas. The woman's son is fond of me. His mother has called me "DS's favorite grownup."
I want to get the kid some cool going-away gift (ideas welcome - he's going to Germany).
The woman is one of two people who unexpectedly reached out to me last year, who made an effort to be nice to me. It was a huge surprise. She has also seen my XWW a few times, and has met OM. A few times last year, she just dropped by my house to see how I was doing. She has no interest in me, except as a friend. That's guaranteed. She is not married, but has been with her SO for years. Just over a year ago they lost a baby. Last winter she invited me to her house for dinner, for no good reason except out of her own decency. The last time we spoke, she said she didn't really want to be friends with my XWW, but I haven't talked to her in a few months.
The thing about asking... it shows that I doubt this woman's level of understanding and sensitivity w/r/t my recent past, and I think she's earned my trust. But I'm not 100% sure. Last summer, when she was on vacation, she let the sparrow stay at her house for two weeks, and I'm sure OM was there the whole while.
If I don't ask, and I go, and they're there, there's no way I'll do anything to ruin the party. But I won't stay for long. If I ask, and the Others are invited, I'll stay away, but I'll still give the DS a present if I can think of something good in time.
JJ, you didn't upset me, babe. Actually hashing it out makes it that much more transparent and less big-scary-what-if for me. I appreciate your concern.
Gray, are these people "that good of friends", ones who are truly aware of the details of your sitch? I didn't get that impression, but could be mistaken. I dunno guys, I see where Gray is coming from, and asking could be bloody uncomfortable (though perhaps it is what he should do). He's at the mercy of these friends and their understanding of what happened, which could very well have been skewed by the Sparrow if they are in contact with her also. Ouch.
That being said, however, I'd probably ask, too. If I felt any obligation to go, that is.
I was just reading a book before bed and read this quote. It reminded me of you facing your demons and attending this party, regardless.
"If one man conquers in battle a thousand times a thousand men, and if another man conquers himself, he is the greatest of conquerers." ~Gautama, the Buddha
Faithful, thats why I asked about the three months.
In three months, you will be able to tell if there is progress, or if he is just blowing smoke.
How did the weekend go at your house?
I just saw this, SS. I understand now about the three months. I was killing some time today while he stopped in to see his dad and I picked up my journal. I read what I wrote back in April and May. Wow what a difference 3 months can make. So to answer SS, yes I can wait three months. I just showed myself how much progress we have made even with the latest eye opener about the money.
Hi SS. You're right, God has a way of having things open up at just the right time. I've seen it before. I'll see it again, I'm sure. And you're right that God probably knows I can't yet see the kind of person I'm looking for. Otherwise I would have seen him in person. I'm too wrapped up in other things. Did you know that I still love my ex? Funny, that. Funny the way baloney in your shoes is funny. Which is to say, there's nothing to laugh about. You just look at your shoes (or your heart) and you say, "Huh. That's funny. What's that doing there?"
And thank you for your words about my help. It's hard to help. It's hard to know whether you're really helping in the long run, in some of these situations. There's so much pain, and so many twists and turns. People who are caught up in panic are hard to help. They keep flailing around working on drowning, and I can't just haul them to shore. I have to teach them to swim right there in the middle of the ocean.
I wonder what the shore is, when it comes to a marriage. Maybe that would be Protection Phase. People surely fight going to that shore.
Anyway, I should sleep. I brought cookies for those who want them, though. Oatmeal raisin made from the recipe on the Quaker Oatmeal canister, so you know they're good.
Weaver, I am glad you had a good time. We do need these experiances.
Time with spouses, time with children and TIME FOR OURSELVES. Time to read, time to think, time to weed the garden.
I brought peach pie. Baked this evening. Peaches were picked this afternoon.
I have ice cream too - but it's melting, so get it while you can.
Faithful, From week to week if often looks bleak. I am glad you looked at your journal. Often it is only looking back over months that we can see what you are seeing.
Progress, or lack of the same is much easier seen when we can grasp the big picture.
What is hard, is lasting that long - isn't that right SLH.
SLH, Are you doing better, or just faking it? I want to know.
I *am* doing beter today, SS. Thank you for asking.
I thoroughly enjoyed those pics. Are you saying you took that one of the rainbow? Amazing!
We got paid yesterday evening, so that will take care of the immediate problems. Yay!
We had a great Sunday at the beach (I know I would have carried that feeling over if I hadn't been hit with Ti going out of town on another family holiday.) Here's a few pics:
Weaver, been thinking about you lately. How are you doing after a few weeks from your brush with the law (that's humor, please know I am jesting)? Still processing things? Did your trip help revive the happy Weaver we know & love?
Kimmy, your update brought tears to my eyes. I am so happy you two are moving forward into recovery. Do you have any details? Kids, custody, that sort of thing?
Has anyone seen or heard from 2Long? Wondering if he's okay.
Gray, have you come to a decision about what to do i/r/t the event you were invited to? Will you let us know how it goes?
FF, you see progress, and you mentioned the sitch with the money. I found and read your thread pretty much after the fact, but it sounds like there was some resolution that I missed. What's happened, babe?
JJ, you teach us to swim right there in the ocean more than you realize. Even with baloney in our shoes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
For the prayer warriors among us -- could you please remember Aphelion? He is going through a really troubled time and I know he would appreciate being lifted up in Prayer.
I emailed the friend and asked her if she could suggest a gift. She just replied asked if it's okay that she invited sparrow, then said she wants me to come 'cause of how much her son likes me.
Know what? The whole thing gives me that ole familiar feeling. She'll be there. I'm sure of it. Just imagining it, I can't feel my fingertips. I want to bow out. SH*T.
FF, you see progress, and you mentioned the sitch with the money. I found and read your thread pretty much after the fact, but it sounds like there was some resolution that I missed. What's happened, babe?
SLH, I noticed progress in our M in general after going back and reading my journal from April and May. The money thing I think is resolved by communicating via email with my H.
I will keep Appy in my prayers. If you are in touch with him, tell I think about him often.
Are you ready to face her yet, GC? If not, I am sure you can drop a gift off early and leave. Perhaps arrange with the friend for you to come over an hour before the party to visit with the son.
FF, this doesn't seem like facing her. It seems like walking into ****** itself. Walking through the fence and looking for a seat on the crowded patio with sparrow and the tinman sitting there. I don't even know what he looks like.
Does that mean I'm not ready?
I'm cursing a blue streak right now. Disappointed in myself. I thought I could handle this, but the reality of it is too harsh. Reading my friend's email put me back on my heels.
Guess this business is sorta taking my temperature, innit?
Gray, to tell you the truth I cannot imagine EVER being ready to face two people who deliberately tore my life and the life of two small children (tinguys kids)apart for purely evil and selfish reasons. I have been thinking about this a lot lately because I do want my H to have C with OC but I really do not want to see OW. She like your XW, deliberately pulled the rug out from under me with her and my H's actions. I still blame her a great deal for seeking out an R with my H even though she knew he was M'd with kids.
Why would you ever want to put yourself in a social setting with those two? See if you can go early.
I told my friend that I was sorry, but I couldn't do it. Here's her reply:
Quote
Totally understandable. That's why I wanted to let you know ahead of time. I was leaving it up to you, her I wasn't going to give any choice in the matter.
That's funny. She meant to warn me, but not the sparrow.
She invited me to drop by before her DS leaves, or to go to the movies with them maybe.
GC, I'm glad your friend cares enough to offer you the chance to protect yourself. I'm glad you care enough to take the time and energy to protect yourself.
I'm glad you'll find a way to spend some time with the young man who's going off to Germany. Because he surely doesn't deserve all this crazy adult stuff.
The best gift to give for his trip to Germany? Hmmmm. Tough one. Two, no three, things come to mind. First, international phone cards so that he can keep in touch with family and friends. Kids are embarassed that they're lonely, but they -are- lonely when they go off like that.
Second, stamped postcards that he can just fill out. Harder to get correct postage, but not impossible.
Third, and this isn't about being lonely, call his mom and see how he's doing for converters for all his electronic gadgets. I had a ton of 'em when I used to go to Germany regularly. Seems like you can't ever have enough.
I don't know but my feelings are so completely opposite regarding you going Gray and facing your fear of seeing her and him. I think you should face it.
I don't see how you could be any more hurt than you already have been, that you need to protect yourself.
And I think the two of them when faced with you would leave soon after. They have shame, you do not.
To me you need to face this and show them (yourself more) that you have survived and even thrived.
I would kill for the chance to be in the same room with my ex and his new flame. Just so I could shine, and show them what I am made out of.
I don't know, just different perspectives I guess.
Here are the negatives. I'll be suffering if we're there at the same time. Big, big, biiiiiig. If OM comes, it will be the first time I've ever seen him. I'll want to run his head through a wall. I won't pretend to be civil to them. I'll do my best to pretend they're invisible. I won't sit it a circle of patio chairs and have beers and conversation and make nice-nice with them. That would be impossible. My presence will probably damage the friendship between this woman and the sparrow. I don't want to cast any darkness over the party.
The positives. They'd probably leave. Afterward, I'd probably feel like I just fought a dragon.
I was praticing lurking. Not that good at it yet. It's only been a week. ...and so... a song for my friends!
Monty Python, "The Galaxy Song"
"Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving and revolving at 900 miles an hour, It's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned, the sun that is the source of all our power. The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see, are moving at a million miles a day, In the outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour, of the Galaxy we call the Milky Way.
Our Galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars, it's 100,000 light-years side-to-side, It bulges in the middle, 16 000 light-years thick, but out by us it's just 3 000 light-years wide. We're 30,000 light-years from galactic central point, we go round every 200 million years, And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions in this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding, in all of the directions it can whizz, As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know, twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is. So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure, how amazingly unlikely is your birth, Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, because there's bugger all down here on Earth."
GC, If one has the choice under what circumstances to fight a dragon, one should engage the quarry under the most personally advantageous circumstances to have tactical superiority. That means when one is completely prepared and at their strongest. Now is not the time me thinks. You may "win" this round, but it would be at a personal cost. You'll see that dragon again...on your terms...when you're ready.
Hey GC, I was just about to say: "Don't do it." But then Binder came along and said it just slightly more eloquently. So, now I'm gonna say: "What Binder said."
I'm not going. I know my limits. It would be too hard to keep the pain from showing. I'd be a spaz, albeit a reasonably graceful one. My movements would get all herky-jerky, and the harder I tried to stay calm, the more obvious my unease would be. And of course everyone would know I was uncomfortable if I followed the tinman to the bathroom and he came back with a white face and a few new gray hairs.
On Saturday, someone I know from my political activities invited me to a party at her house. Last time I went to one of these, in December, there was a woman there... obvious mutual attraction. I almost asked her for her digits, but the little angel on my shoulder told me don't do it. Sparrow hadn't even filed yet, and I'd been in plan B for two months. So I said good night, and there was no way to keep in touch. I know a few things about her - her first name, where she works, and her birthdate. And the woman who had the party probably has her email. Using any of that info to find her at this point would be ca-reepy. I give it about a 10% likelihood, but it's possible she's invited to the party. If she's there, I'm absolutely going to ask her out.
Binder, glad you came along and verbalized what we were trying to say. 2L!! Missed you. I am not good at lurking either, I only lasted like two days LOL
Binder, that was by the way a career-making post. Least it made me feel better about being a chicken.
Weaver, I'd like to meet this girl again. The chemistry was right on.
Ain't it precious? Here's my post from that night:
Quote
Tonight I went to a political event, a party at the house of a friend in the neighborhood. There were about 20 people there. Expecting the usual sort of crowd (everybody about 20 years older than me), I grabbed a glass of wine and found a seat on a bench in front of the fireplace. Across from me, on the couch, sat a very nice looking girl about my age. I'd never seen her at one of these.
When the meeting divided up into small groups, we were put in the same one. She talked about what was on her mind, and of course it was exactly the same thing that's bothering me. When I spoke, I saw her nodding enthusiastically in agreement. We made eye contact a few times. Yadda yadda...
When the full group got back together, she moved across the room and sat on the floor in front of me.
Everybody took a break to get more snacks, and afterward she climbed up on the bench and sat next to me. There was a third person on the bench, so we were pretty close together. Felt that attraction...
There was a conference call with the leaders of our outfit, and we muttered a few remarks to each other during all that. Yeah yeah, I flirted a bit. Barely. So little. But yeah, a little.
As the party started to break up, we chatted each other up a little more. Nothing big. She talked about her job (about which my friend, when I told her about it later, said, "Your kinda girl"). She mentioned her upcoming birthday, and how she was going to have a party, and that she was glad she wound up at this particular event.
Yadda yadda yadda.
We left at the same time. Shook hands, said it was real nice to meet you, all that, and went our separate ways.
Reading back over old posts as I looked for this... it blew my mind. So many people got on this thread and gave me a hand. It gave me hope during those awful days. And my M failed and died. And it still matters to me, all that hope.
All that old communication reveals to me the stupidity of the "kick 'em to the curb" mentality seen in the conventional wisdom when it comes to cheatin' spouses. I don't regret drawing out my suffering and trying to preserve my hope. Taking a shortcut around it would have left me damaged in too many unknown ways.
After the last couple of days, it's clear I'm still wounded.
I've said it before: stoicism is overrated. Howling and screaming and protesting my way through it all, while remembering that the pain was nothing special or unique to me, but my own little slice of the human condition, was the thing to do. No doubt.
I've said it before: stoicism is overrated. Howling and screaming and protesting my way through it all, while remembering that the pain was nothing special or unique to me, but my own little slice of the human condition, was the thing to do. No doubt.
Far, have you still been considering talking with your WW about getting a full-time job and putting the kids in daycare?
I ask because I know how much it would trouble her to do so, especially in light of the fact that you guys HS (I'd love to HS myself, but lack the patience!) Despite her comment about the Day Laborer, she really needs to see the consequences that her actions could take are very real. This is serious business. And sacrificing her children's future is probably not something she is inclined to play around with.
Not meaning to push, but I thought this was worth asking about again.
Hellllo, SLH. I'm here! During breaks on house work at least.
I have just 1.5 months left to do my refi and cough up the sparrow's cash, but she has not executed her quit claim on the house yet. The decree stipulated that she do it within two weeks of the divorce. Tomorrow will be the four-week mark. That little bugger.
GC -Hi there - I just dropped in for the first time in quite awhile and I see from your sig line that your D is now final. I just wanted to wish you well. I don't know if this is a good thing for you, or a bad thing - but at least its the start of a new phase for you. take care, GC!
FAR - thanks for dropping by last night. I wouldn't say I feel like a million, but yeah, there's a silver lining.
2long, SLH - no comment re the settlement and sparrow's failure to abide by it. I'm still cautious about unwelcome eyes here. It would be foolish to discuss my plans. Probably I shouldn't have even written about it.
Geez, nobody's around but the crickets. Here's a song I wrote:
Alone in her new place With pictures she took Just days ago
Pictures of islands Turtles and friends From before
She stands at her window Feels how the wind Still blows from the West
Too many daydreams Invade her sleep And steal her rest
She goes out lookin' for friends But the company's got Too many plans
The rest are in circles With no room for girls From faraway lands
She gets out of there and Runs into the girl From down the hall
They go back and chat then The fun is cut short When the ex calls
He says, "I can tell by your voice you've been lonely" She says, "Man, that's astute - "You must really know me" "Don't be smart," he says, "I miss you too" She says, "Where'd you get the idea That what I miss is you?"
Nobody knows her for a thousand miles And that suits her all right At least for a little while A friend would be nice and the weather here is bad But this time that belongs to her Feels like the first she's ever had
(Did they retract the No Editing rule? Whe I tried to edit a few days ago, I had expired the time alotted (a few hours). But this post's been up longer. Weird.)
GC, damn, that was fine! Do you play it for performances, or is it personal? When did you write it? I get the impression that it's not a recent piece. . . just a whisper of something I can't quite put my finger on.
So when are you going to let us know how we can get ahold of some of your music?
Faithful, any news to report on the homefront? I can't find your thread again and am wondering if you're still posting on it or another.
I think I'll just sit back and wait for Binder to come and comment on how talented, and sweet Graycloud is.
BTW Binder, you can tell us what is going on, even if it's hard for you.
Graycloud, You do have talent, and it's good to see it come out. I suspect that this last year has been hard on your creative self.
SLH, You have talent too - Kindness, Care, Concern. I know you have other talent that you don't mention here. Don't be shy. Tell us about yoursef, you are an interresting person.
Faithful, Yes, give us an update !!! We want to know how your H is doing with your feelings, but we want to know how you are coping too.
2long - Missed you. Don't be a stranger. Do you have an update for us?
Weaver, I continue to read your comments to others as I pass by some threads. Your care, concern, and wise words thrill me as I read. Like I told SVB1 a while back, if you knew how much you are worth, you would rejoice, and probably never make a major mistake again. You are worth too much, I know it, and Paige knows it.
Kimmy, It is so good to see you happy. Keep it up.
Quote for the gals today -
A man's got to do what a man's got to do. A woman must do what he can't. -Rhonda Hansome-
Of course I was fishing for all these compliments, so thank you.
SLH, you are correct. I wrote that song about a year before the nightmare began. It isn't recorded, but we play it at all our gigs. It's one of three songs where I sing the lead.
Our CD is done and officially released. I wish I could give them away, but I have to buy them from the band! We decided it's too hard to decide who gets one for free and who has to pay, so we only gave freebies to people who worked on the record. Our accountant (who is also our drummer) is tough!
As far as how to get one... the TOS probably forbid me from going there on this forum.
Faithful, any news to report on the homefront? I can't find your thread again and am wondering if you're still posting on it or another
Thanks for asking SLH and SS. I am fine not much time to post the past couple days. Had a major crisis at work. We have a childhood friend of H staying with us and that has kept me on my toes at home. I hope he will be gone by tomorrow. The guy is an odd person and difficult to be around for any length of time. Not just me, driving my H crazy too. So no talk no time together not even going to be bed at the same time because his friend is there. I hope we will be able to get back to things soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Just got back from weekend political event #1, Meet the Candidate and Give Her Money. Yikes. I went there knowing only (and just barely) the couple hosting the party.
A pretty girl was stationed at the front door with nametags and all that. I said hello, talked a bit. Went inside. Awk-ward! The candidate grabbed me and introduced herself immediately. She was very charming, and about my age. I tried to say hello to the host and hostess. The two of them, in the middle of another conversation, barely nodded at me. I was like a deer in the headlights. I knew nobody, but they all seemed to know each other.
Mercifully, the candidate started her speech after just a few minutes. After she was done, I went outside to call my dad (he's 73 today). No answer. Just me at a bench by the front door and the pretty girl behind the table. I fumbled with my cell phone a bit, then walked over and struck up a conversation with her, but felt like a freak. Hope I came off better than I thought. We talked about renovating our houses. She threw in a "we" or two, a nice, subtle, I-got-a-man message. I went back inside. I tried to talk to the girl who invited me to the event, who I'd never met. I don't even know what I said to her. The candidate came back, and I spoke with her for a minute. I asked her how the doorknocking is going, told her, "Maybe I can help you out," then FLED.
I can be charming, but not tonight. It felt like my first junior high dance. I had every reason to be confident and assured. These were nice people. I suppose sticking to familiar social settings for the last year has left me a bit out of practice.
This political stuff is cool though. A good way to meet people.
Last week I put my profile on two online dating sites. Didn't pay for full membership - I was only trying it on. I got some responses. Looked at some profiles. Bo-ring. Online dating is not for me. Bleh. Like signing up for a string of blind dates. I yanked my profiles and called that experiment done.
I noticed your very wise saying a few pages ago... about sharing a slice of the human condition. I wish I could say something clever about it, but I'm too beat. You're a good guy. Luck is something you won't need.
As for me, "we" are filing tomorrow. Uncontested D goes in 30 days here. After that, I'll be leaving MB. I'm winding down already.
GC, I'm curious -- why do you wish to do this? What do you hope it accomplishes?
The idea occurs to me because I was married in the Catholic church. I'd like to hear that perspective on marriage and divorce and infidelity. Not looking for any condemnation or permission or instruction. Just would like to hear that POV.
AD, I am sorry for this. What kind of relationship will you have with her after this? What will you do when she comes to you uncertain at the 11th hour? Or after the D, if you meet someone, and she reacts to that.
If you see my latest thread..my H never stopped the A. Just switched to new A phones. JFO tonight. They are talking about 2500 minutes per month since April. Time for FF to move on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Are you serious? I just can't believe it. I don't want to read your thread now, but I have too. I am so sorry, I just can't believe it.
Gray,
Can you please post your link to buy the CD? I don't think it is a violation of TOS since it has nothing to do with relationships. If not can you email it to me so I can get one. Thanks
SS,
Thank you! And I love that quote too. How very true it is.
How can I not be a stranger? I AM pretty strange, you know! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Not much 2 update, except 2 note that things are going well. Part of that is backing off my posting here, ac2ally. Put things back in2 perspective a bit.
We leave 2day for my sister's. The memorial service for my dad is 2morrow. My sister asked if I wanted 2 read one of the poems I got on my thread here at the service, but like JL, I don't think I'd make it through. Someone else is going 2 read them.
We're going 2 OOSP over Labor Day. Gonna scope out a site for my scopes while I'm there, 2. Weather looks patchy, with thunderboomers from time 2 time. I just hope the sucker holes are big enough 2 take pic2res through the clouds at night... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
"Just got back from weekend political event #1, Meet the Candidate and Give Her Money. Yikes."
I saw the problem right off the bat without having 2 read your post: It was WEDNESDAY. That's as far from a weekend as you can get, pretty much.
No WONDER you had all kinds of twilight zone events going on... ...I wouldn't be surprised if you told me that you'd tossed a dime in the til and it s2d on edge the whole time you were there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Speaking of which (not that we were)... ...for some inexplicable reason, I'm goofy about afterlife movies and books. Loved Ghost (saw it many times), loved the book "A fine and Private Place" (Peter Beagle) - probably the best such around.
But your political event story (and my twilight zone read of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) reminded me of one of my favorite Jennifer Connelly movies on that kind of subject: "Waking the Dead". Hard 2 describe, so I won't. You've gotta see it.
2L, since I am operating on 2 hours sleep and don't care if I sound like an idiot, what is OOSP? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Oh, FF!! I don't know what to say. I wish I did but I don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
Part of me wants to spout off at him every scummy name I've ever heard, but I know that won't help.
I am so sorry. Sooo sorry, Luv. All your time. All that dedication.
I'm lurking....and nauseated by your recent discovery. I can only hope that someday.....something......ANYTHING positve can come about from this for you personally. It's tough to be a "glass half full" person under the circumstances. I don't know what else to say.
What will you do when she comes to you uncertain at the 11th hour? GC
Well, she was uncertain today. I went by to pick her up, so we drove to the lawyer's office together. When I got there, she wasn't dressed (at 2:30). She looked GOOD wearing a pink camasole kind of thing. I waited while she changed. While we drove, we talked about what would do if we stayed married - and she was still talking about that when we drove up in the parking lot. She said she felt "stomach sick".
We went in, the secretary showed us to a tiny conference room. We sat at the table, the 3 of us. DD4, blissfully unaware, was drawing on some kind of magnetic sketch pad that they offered her to play with. W said "Are we really doing this? It doesn't seem real." I just looked at her. We signed, I paid, and we left. As we drove, she asked what it takes to stop it now. "Do we both have to agree to stop it?" My reply "I don't know." She wanted to go somewhere and eat. I declined, on the basis that I needed to get back to work. When we got to her place, she even looked a little sick.
Whatever.
To stop this, she's got to appeal to me with full force, not with hints. She's got to say plainly "I want to stay married to you. This was all a mistake. I will do whatever it takes." But, GC, it ain't gonna happen.
2long, hope the memorial service is nice and I know it will be. Can you post the poem here which you wanted to read? I hated to say goodbye to my parents, so I didn't. Still talk to them all the time. And in my dreams they even talk back. I love it when I dream of them.
Weaver, I'll talk to the guys, see what we'll need to set up to do it more official-like. Sit tight just a bit, 'kay?
This weekend, some of my work will CULMINATE. My boss is dropping off a compressor and a nailgun, and I'm putting up the crown moulding in my living room. For the first time since summer '03 the room will look right.
Feels great to be getting some visible results, finally.
Another political thing this afternoon. Hope I don't get freaked out this time.
I went to my political thing. As expected, the November Girl was not there. Least I wasn't nervous.
Something occurs from me from time to time. Despite my own suffering this past year... I think I had it easy. Fence-sitting, dishonest, relapsing WS like FF's WH put their loved ones through a meat grinder, over and over. Good golly.
I never have written about this, but a few months ago, I had a phone conversation with Dr. Harley. It wasn't a coaching call. The tinman had, in one of his hysterical affadavits, attempted to portray MB as a subversive organization, and I wanted the Dr. to be aware of it (esp. since it happened in his very own home state). I made a few calls, and eventually tracked him down. We spoke for about an hour.
He was entirely dismissive of the tinman's feeble efforts to tar his organization. But that aside, we had a long conversation.
He asked me to tell him my whole story, then he told me to get out.
Thanks for the inquiry regarding my situation. Instead of cluttering this thread with my relatively mundane divorce proceedings, I’ll resurrect an old thread of mine and put it there to give it some context. First things first though:
still seeking said:
Quote
I think I'll just sit back and wait for Binder to come and comment on how talented, and sweet Graycloud is.
Thank you for the invitation to comment on MB’s own renaissance man who yet again has raised the bar for the rest of us knuckle-draggers. Now he’s a writer too….Great. I’m sure he won’t be reading this as he’s probably scouring the internet looking for some poor dying soul hooked up to dialysis with a matching blood type that he can donate a kidney to. Though it will interrupt his daily ritual of going to the veteran’s hospital to read to the blind.
Geez, GC…cool it! I’ll never get the female perspective on my stuff if they’re all ooooooohing and aaaaaahing over you!!
And isn’t this supposed to be a campfire discussion. Shouldn’t we be debating which caliber rifle is the best in a mountain sheep hunt while sipping some fine Canadian rye whisky? All of us should be smelling of smoke, sweat and gun oil. Let’s focus people!
On my end... went out for a bit tonight. A guy I know is moving to L.A. in a week. He was there with a (fine) girl he dated for a while, but now they're "just friends".
She does some political work. The subject of November Girl came up. She asked me NG's name. Thinks she might know her.
When they left, she put her hand on my back and gave me some sugar. Nobody else could see it. Daddy.
And isn’t this supposed to be a campfire discussion. Shouldn’t we be debating which caliber rifle is the best in a mountain sheep hunt while sipping some fine Canadian rye whisky? All of us should be smelling of smoke, sweat and gun oil. Let’s focus people!
No way Binder, save it for boy's night out. This is a co-ed campfire.
Well okay you can have your little beer drinking, gun polishing, hunting story night, but then us girls are going to have our moon dancing, love spell casting, flower braiding, folk singing night.
And JJ will cook for both. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Gray,
Too funny about the lower back sugar, or whatever you were talking about. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
...any loving is good loving so I took what I could get yeah I took what I could get, and she said you aint seen nothing yet. Bababababy you just aint seen nothing yet.
May I ask for prayers? Both my and H's entire family live in the New Orleans / Baton Rouge, LA area -- where some of the most devestation is destined to occur when hurricane Katrina hits. With sustained 175 mph winds (and gusts in excess of 200 mph), they are seeking safety but even then, "safe areas" are limited and not entirely safe under those conditions. There are scenerios where the entire LA electrical grid may be shut down for weeks, the 20 ft levees may be demolished due to the storm surge, skyscrapers could wobble and even collapse, etc. I am so concerned for my parents and sisters, and their families.
I hope to get over there and help with the cleanup, etc as soon as I can. It's 4 hours or so from here.
I'd appreciate if you guys would remember them in prayer.
Good news ya'll. I got a job. FT. I can quit where I work now (from home for the company I worked for in Corpus). I might even have to check in less than I do now, but it's a GOOD thing.
Wookie called me earlier. Sit down ya'll. Fan yourselves. He told me that since I'm going back to ft work, he wants me to make a "chore chart" for him and the kids. He said he'd even do laundry - towels and whites, cos you can't screw those up, if'n we sort 'em first. I swear. I thought Rod Serling was gonna come up an pinch me (pronounced "peench").
D'ya know it's been since b4 his mom died (and his subsequent dive into depression, alcohol and the a) since I've not done EVERYTHING and worked full time? I dunno how to act.
Since Gray pointed out that I suck at catching up...........
Glad the ones that are doing good are doing good.
Sad the bad stuff is going down. Praying for everyone that needs help (pretty much all of us eh?)
Binder - I am not worried about how your D is doing. I suspect you will tell us if and when it's final. I think you covered those bases, I hope the agreement stands.
I am concerned about your feelings. I am concerned about your dark hours. I am concerned about children whose parents are going through divorce.
I wonder about what's in your heart now, I wonder how your faith is holding up.
I'm trusting that the fishing has been good this summer. I use an 06 for everything big, a .223 for everything small. The 06 gets 1 inch groups at 200M. The .223 1" at 100M. Both are reasonably clean. I know some will reach out further and flatter, but these seem to work for me if I do my part.
I was thinking about Edmonton the other day, and that little apt I used to live in. It was too cold in the winter, but I have some good memories.
If it was all boiled down, perhaps I was wondering about the judgement day. If it was to come tomorrow, would you be a happy man? Would I? May we both live so that it would be a day of great joy.
Okay... there's a pub in my neighborhood. I go there every few weeks or so. There's a waitress there. Nice looking, smart, cool girl.
A few months ago I started taking a buddy to this pub once in a while - the guy whose father abandoned him and his sisters long ago. Some campers may remember.
Last week we went, and this nice waitress was especially nice to him. The following night, he went there by himself and asked her out, and now they're dating and hitting it off it seems.
I was really jealous when he told me about it. I don't have any interest in this person he's seeing. She's not for me. But all this news makes me think there's something wrong with me. A few months ago it felt like I'd do okay with the ladies. Since then, none of them, none of them, seem at all interested.
The waitress told my buddy that a few months back, I was at the pub having some kind of heated discussion with a dude, and that after I left the guy said I was a "[censored]".
She said she thinks I'm a "nice guy".
I don't remember ever having the most minor disagreement with anybody at this place.
Ah! Women don't want me, but think I'm nice, and strangers call me a "[censored]" after I walk away.
SS, you crack me up! GC, when you start putting out the right vibes they will be there. I think you still are injured inside, but that is MHO. FWIW, I would have jumped at a chance with a guy like you back in the old days.
You can sing "Jeramiah Was a Bullfrog, nere nere nere" Okay SS? I know you know that one.
Or how about "Dancing in the Moonlight". Bet you know that one too.
Gray,
Nice guys scare girls who are not used to it, it feels uncomfortable because deep inside they don't think they deserve it.
You have to let the "nice" sneak up on them. Start out being a jerk and then when they trust you and are hooked, bring on the nice.
I know it seems bass ackward but I know from personal experience that when a guy is too nice I feel like I won't measure up. And I run for the hills until some jerk I am comfortable with shows up and gives me what I think I deserve.
I am working on those issues now though.
But for you, if you are nice and the girl isn't biting, keep looking, chances are she is damaged, and you don't even want to go THERE.
SS, you crack me up! GC, when you start putting out the right vibes they will be there. I think you still are injured inside, but that is MHO. FWIW, I would have jumped at a chance with a guy like you back in the old days.
Ah! Women don't want me, but think I'm nice, and strangers call me a "[censored]" after I walk away.
Try switching it around, be a "[censored]" to the girls and nice to the guys.
But then be especially nice to one girl, and she will think that she is special because this jerk is nice to her, but a "[censored]" to the rest.
And no, I'm not drinking. Just worked in the bars too long, and saw this crap all the time.
Or maybe it was because I was looking through my eyes, that this is what I saw. Who knows.
Well time to go work out, and see if that helps my thinking process, as I can tell by what I am typing it's been too long a day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, I'm not nice like wimpy or too polite, I don't think. I don't think I usually seem nervous around women, and there's no way I come across as trying too hard. Know what I wonder about? I wonder if my mannerisms are odd or something. No kidding.
Anyway, what I perceive as being treated like a leper might be real, and I'd like to figure it out. J and SS have met me in person, and I'm pretty sure I didn't come across weird to them. Although J said I seemed angry.
When I talk to strangers, I put conscious effort into listening to them, and I do not make conversations ('cept this one, haw haw) about myself.
I'm gonna look into this more.
I realize this stuff I'm writing is the worst kind of neurotic B.S., and that no matter who you are, some people are just not going to be cool to you.
I realize this stuff I'm writing is the worst kind of neurotic B.S.
NOT !!!
You are wondering about things, and have the guts to talk about it. This is one of the reasons that people here tell you that you "get" it.
Yes, I have met you. You are talented, you have personality, you are genuine, and even humble. Go back a few months and read what SLH wrote - it was correct. So why the trouble?
I don't know the reasons for what feels like rejection -
Weaver and Faithful have some good ideas, and they are GIRLS so you should think on what they say.
Also ....... when someone is looking for God, and asking him if he is real, and trying to get his help - he helps.
He may be saving you for someone you haven't met yet. As hard as it is, you can always trust him. Always. You just have to be willing to play by his rules.
You have a lot of girls for friends, ask them to be brutally honest with you, and then take it from there.
But I bet it is more the case of not meeting someone with the right chemestry for yours yet.
Next time you meet someone you like, be a bit more persistant.
I have one guy who has been calling me for a month, and today he stopped into my office.
We have great phone convo's, but I made my mind up right away he wasn't "my" type. He is very, very cool but he is not what I am used to.
Anyway today I decided he just might be my type, and in a few months when I am ready I might allow some romance with him.
I told him that I needed a few more months to get my self together (heal), and he said he would settle for what ever I could give, friendship what ever for now.
But I am serious Gray when a month ago I absolutely had no attraction for him what so ever, but he is not giving up and now he is becomming attractive to me.
As a "newfound veteran lurker", I've adopted the following as my theme song (after all, Iron Butterfly's "Iron Butterfly Theme" is an instrumental!):
King Crimson, "Exiles"
"Now...in this faraway land, Strange...that the palms of my hands Should be damp with expectancy.
Spring...and the air's turning mild. City lights...and the glimpse of a child, Of the alleyway infantry.
Friends...do they know what I mean? Rain...and the gathering green, Of an afternoon out-of-town.
But Lord I had to go. My trail was laid too slow behind me. To face the call of fame, Or make a drunkard's name for me. But now this better life Has brought a different understanding. And through these endless days Shall come a broader sympathy. And though I count the hours, To be alone's no injury...
My home...was a place by the sand. Cliffs...and a military band Blew an air of normality."
Okay, well... that girl that gave me a mini-massage the other night, I'm actually going to track her down. I don't think I'll go after her, because she's dated a guy I know and even though they're "just friends", I don't think they're done. But the other night I got the feeling she honestly liked me, and I reckon it can't hurt to expand my network.
I am going to talk to my female friends about this. They'll be truthful I think.
Alllll righto! When I grow up, I'm gonna be a camp cook at Cerri's house. Right after I figure out how to make it into a legendary marriage retreat and drumming location that will draw people from all over the world who want to spend, oh, $5,000 a week to sleep in tents.
(There will be silk sheets in the tents.)
Yes, I just spent another fantastic weekend at the compound in Wisconsin. Darned-fine weather, too.
Hey, GC. You never know where you'll meet someone who rocks your world, and you theirs. Keep open. It takes time. You'll know when it happens. And even then, it takes time.
Edited to add: Just make sure it's ethical. You're right on in terms of not stepping on someone else's relationship, even if they claim they're "done."
Ethan, aka TFM, posted recently on D/D about being thrown together with his XW in a class, seeing her, talking to her, yukking it up, and being okay with it.
I'm certainly not as far along in my grieving as he is. I had a recent situation in which I might have been in a social setting with XWW, and possibly OM. I felt like the courageous thing to do would have been to go, because there was nothing to fear, but I was terrified of going. I can't imagine having a conversation with the unrepentant sparrow. I couldn't imagine it six months ago, and I can't imagine it now.
I know, time, time. But my M is no less sacred to me than it was the day I was married. Any icky-subject-avoiding interaction with the people who made it end would trivialize it. How does that ever become less true?
GC - Not sure I could do that either. However I can't say that being the bigger person trivializes the marriage you had. Maybe he is a fantastic example of healing through the Marriage Builders process. Perhaps TFM is way more mature than either one of us. I hope he doesn't get sucked back into the drama.
Just this morning I was thinking about my grandfather because today is his birthday too. He was so special to me. He passed away four years ago and would have been 86 (I think) today. Anyway, isn't it strange to think about where you could be 50 years from now?
And, No, I don't mean dead. LOL! I was trying to be philosophical. Nevermind.
Too cool. Tonight I bought myself a little gift - Elie Wiesel's Night. A tiny gift, in $, and a sad story, but I think a good present.
I bought the kid who's leaving for Germany this week a gift too. He's the son of a friend who didn't have to reach out to me this past year, but who did anyway. I'll deliver it tomorrow after work.
I went out for sushi with a few chums. Our waitress was someone who used to work at a pub where we were regulars. Last time I was at this place, she and I chatted a bit, but I'd forgotten her name. I asked her again tonight, and we talked a little more. She's beautiful and very nice. I doubt she's interested. But after my recent missteps and doubts, just asking for her name was a speed bump to navigate. Her name is Moon. Anyway...
As I was on my way home, one of the friends I'd had dinner with called to tell me he'd just gotten engaged. He didn't bring it up at dinner because he wanted to tell me first. That was some gift.
Thanks everyone. You made me tear up. Especially Binder with that scary description of where my package is headed.
Things are quiet, and uncertain, but more or less look okay for now.
Gray - I read that book about 7 years ago, when my son was reading it for a highschool class. It is absolutely haunting. I still remember the scene where the child was being hung, and someone remarked "Where is God?"
Believer - Where is God? is one of the greatest questions I struggle with.
I think I might have told this story before. A few years ago, my XSFIL (ex-step-father-in-law) and I went together to a barbershop in a small town. While we waited, two women came in with several mentally disabled men. The men were all middle-aged, and were profoundly disabled. Helpless. As XSFIL put it, "Those guys are in rough shape."
The women were nuns. Caring for these men was what they did with their lives.
It was one time in my life when I thought, If there's a God, he's in this room.
The women were nuns. Caring for these men was what they did with their lives.
It was one time in my life when I thought, If there's a God, he's in this room.
GC
Yeah, I know what you mean.
My Mom had a professor in grad school (seminary, actually). He and his wife had a profoundly retarded adult son. They pushed him all over the campus, took care of his every need. That son died - when he was in his mid-sixties and they were in their nineties. They took care of him for his entire life. That's love, the real thing. Nobody but God knows the depths of it.
It was one time in my life when I thought, If there's a God, he's in this room.
GC, I am in the presence of God every day when I am with my son. No one has a closer connection to Him than the innocent like DS. I pray you find Him in your life.
Thanks for asking.....the update will eventually get here via the other ancient thread as promised....just have to find the time. Thanks for asking.
I'll include all the "mechanical stuff" there. Of course more is going on that I'll likely cover here cuz I find it a warm, fuzzy place to do so, though I hope I get some objective feedback.
Still seeking, the ought-6 is a heck of a caliber and can be chambered for pert-much anything North America can put in front of your sights. Groups like that speak well for both the rifle and the rifleman. That .223 can be a finicky round especially in a cross-wind.
I'll ponder those other issues you present. I'll share here in a bit.
Quote: ================================== I had a recent situation in which I might have been in a social setting with XWW, and possibly OM. I felt like the courageous thing to do would have been to go, because there was nothing to fear, but I was terrified of going. ==================================
I heard there was a poisonous snake handling class on the same night on the other side of town. I think it would be a safer place for you to go unless there is a particular reason you need to eviscerate yourself. Otherwise, consider giving any meeting with the infidels a wide berth for a good long time.
My friend has a female roommate. When he moved into her house, he told her he wouldn't get into any hanky panky with her. He's lived with her for two or three years. They're friends. They sit around and chat quite a bit, and now and then go grocery shopping together, that kind of thing.
Every time he has a new girlfriend, his roommate shows signs of anger.
Last fall, she left her diary out. He read it and discovered that she was in love with him.
He confronted her. Told her that it wasn't going anywhere, but that he valued her friendship. She said she didn't want him to move out, so he didn't.
He dated someone else for a while after that. His roommate did lots of stompin' and door slammin' whenever the girlfriend was around.
He asked her should I move out. She said no, stay.
He and his GF broke up.
He just started dating someone new - the girl from the pub. The other night she came home with him. His roommate is acting angry again. This morning she confronted him. She complained that he didn't tell her he was bringing someone home. He said it was spontaneous. She said he was lying, that she knew he'd planned it because he cleaned his bathroom the day he brought pub girl home. He said something about her having feelings for him, and she said she's over all that. But why should it even matter if he brought someone home, much less whether it was or was not planned?
Doesn't sound like she's over him, does it?
He doesn't know what to do. He's sure it would cause her pain if he left, because she'd lose that companionship with him. But he's also sure it causes her pain with him there, because she's getting a few ENs satisfied by him, and it's seems like it's just enough to keep her strung along, even though he's told her in a clear voice that he doesn't want an intimate relationship with her.
He can't figure out what to do. Staying is unfair to his roommate. She doesn't date at all. She seems obviously to be attached, even though she insists she isn't. But moving away would hurt her, and every time he brings it up she practically begs him not to.
He's tumbled down a rabbit-hole into a dysfunctional situation with his roommate, and sees no way out without hurting her.
I've got a stake in it, unfortunately. If he moves out, he'll move into my house with me.
He asked me to tell him what to do, and I'm not sure. He's talked these issues to death with his roomie, but the problems persist.
. . . the ought-6 is a heck of a caliber and can be chambered for pert-much anything North America can put in front of your sights. Groups like that speak well for both the rifle and the rifleman. That .223 can be a finicky round especially in a cross-wind.
Okay, now we're discussin' guns? LOL
And here I've only got my wee pea-shootin' Derringer to talk about!
As a young'un, my Daddy taught me to shoot and taught me well. We'd go out to the Mississippi levee south of New Orleans and have hours of target practice on Ozzy Ousbourne albums (local radio stations handed them out at parades <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> great for target practice). I learned first-hand to repect the power and responsability of using our guns. I am so thankful for that opportunity.
I still have my .22 semi-automatic rifle, but my little Derringer's there for self-protection.
I know, I know, a chick gun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But I'm not too bad with a .357 revolver, either. Wanna see?
Where's my chew and a beer? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I can totally see why your friend is concerned, but the time for talking is done. He's stated his case over and over and yet things have not changed. He pays rent, half the bills; he deserves the repect that that entitles him. Mentioning to his roomate that he may be bringing some one to his home should not have to be an obligation, and he should not be "punished" for doing so. Is this his home too, or not?? Because Ms. Unrequited is not behaving as such.
You said you have a stake in this, that he may be moving in with you. Is this something you desire, or not? I'm sorry I couldn't discern which.
Maybe a little distance is what Ms. Unrequited needs. If he changes his mind later, he could always go back.
He's tumbled down a rabbit-hole into a dysfunctional situation with his roommate, and sees no way out without hurting her.
GC, this is a very sick relationship and not just on the roommates part. I would not let him move in with you. He needs to do this on his. He needs to tell her he is going and that their so-called friendship is over. Truly do a plan B type thing with her. Imagine if he meets and marries someone before he has really stepped back from this situation? He will take the dysfunction into the M. Your friend IMVHO needs some IC. Sorry for the directness but this scares me that you may get dragged into this situation.
I heard there was a poisonous snake handling class on the same night on the other side of town. I think it would be a safer place for you to go unless there is a particular reason you need to eviscerate yourself. Otherwise, consider giving any meeting with the infidels a wide berth for a good long time.
If he is afraid of hurting her........... he will hurt her more to let such a relationship continue.
It is interresting to hear about this in light of what Dr Harley says about meeting needs, and love. Especially interresting given the (usual) differences of needs between the sexes. It seems to fit so well, like it was scripted.
I think he should just tell her he decided to move, and move. Talking to her may make it worse.
SLH, How did the weekend go, especialy Friday.
What did Ti do to make you feel loved and cared for?
How is your family coping with the aftermath of the H?
I didn't realize you were so deadly. At least you don't need to worry about being home alone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Faithful, it is so hard to know what to say. I keep wishing I could think of something that would help, but nothing I can say will match what you are feeling. Still praying.
My plans are mild this weekend. Saturday will be spent catching up on my filing at home, getting my personal things in order. I have been busy every weekend since mid July, and it is badly needed. Sunday will be church as usual. Monday we plan on doing a slot canyon hike that is a 35 minute drive from our home.
Then we will have a BBQ in the eveining with a neighbor family (the dad is deployed in the middle east.)
That's about it.
We have date night Friday, it's my turn, and I don't have it planned yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Going out to dinner is easy, and takes little planning. I may do that. Last friday night was a an overnight camp in the mountains with a group, so not an official date.
How about you? You don't have to sit around when there are so many things to do. I suspect no one on their death bed ever says "I wish I would have spent more time doing housework and less time doing fun things with the kids."
Tell me about your son, what he can do, what he has trouble with.
Deadly, SS? I don't know; it's been a number of years. I might could make you wish you were dead, even with my pea-shooter! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Re: our anniversary, he was in town (only b/c his destination was NO, where Katrina was going to hit) and it was messy.
Arguments, resentment, bitterness. I am claiming my part in a lot of this. But I definitely saw the breadth of his frustration with our circumstances (marital & financial). He punched 5 huge holes in the wall. This, the most gentle, kind, gracious and diplomatic man I know. His vehemence was terrible. He truly feels like he cannot win.
Neither do I.
A lot was aired, but I am discovering he is still harboring an extreme amount of resentment over some things I had revealed. (Thus the bedroom wall remodelling -- I can elaborate if it will give anyone insight and advice).
There was a time I would be devastated, but I am either becoming apathetic or gaining a new insight into how much I will put up with. Being ignored is not one of them.
How about you? You don't have to sit around when there are so many things to do. I suspect no one on their death bed ever says "I wish I would have spent more time doing housework and less time doing fun things with the kids."
Tell me about your son, what he can do, what he has trouble with.
No, I don't have to sit around and may consider something fun to do with the kids. I am so tired I can't think today. My DS is completely dependant for all his care. He does not sit on his own, feed himself or speak. He is a good communicator though, has a lovely personality and loves to be around people. He is getting bigger so it is getting harder for me to do things with him without another adult. We can do movies, walks, going out for ice cream or read together at home.
(Thus the bedroom wall remodelling -- I can elaborate if it will give anyone insight and advice).
Please elaborate......
Now, about the rest of this........... mess.
Much of this is the way men and women look at things differently. I promise it is.
When you tell him your feelings, he feels attacked. He may not admit it, but he does.
Punching holes is not the proper way to deal with frustration. I did this once - and I fixed it so you can't hardly see it - but it reminds me of how foolish I once was, and how little I understood emotions.
I still see much good in your relationship, but of course I am not there with you. You talked, I see that as good. You are in conflict, which is much better than apathy.
If you have to make major changes, make them. You know what I am saying. I still think you need to get his attention. I do worry that someone that will do five holes in the wall will have too much pride to do the right thing if you do something drastic. You worry too. Is this a side of him you have never seen before?
His vehemence was terrible. He truly feels like he cannot win.
He is failing his family - you are telling him that over and over. Not in so many words, but that is what he is hearing. This is probably what he is thinking - Perhaps not with his conscious mind, but it is there.
I am a failure I can't provide for my family I am a failure I can't make my wife happy I am a failure I can't make my company successful
No, he doesn't understand how he can win and his answer to everyting is to work harder - because it's gotta work, doesn't it? I mean, what else is there?
I don't know the specfics, and I am not a pro at this, but there are ALWAYS options. You may not like them, you may not want them, but they are there. They are always there.
You tell us what you think the options are, I want to see how far along you are.
He needs a success. It needs to be his. I don't know what it should be, don't know if you do either, because I know you have been trying.
Perhaps I should wait for your reply before saying more.
BTW my sister lives in Magnolia, is that very close to you?
One day, I may even get there to visit, but not in the next few months.
SS, the photos of that canyon hike were marvelous. Lifted my spirits by just looking at them. What a delightful way to spend a day, or weekend.
When we were younger, I regularly went "creeking" with my father, or with Ti and a large group of friends. I also spent a few weeks 2 summers on Black Mt. in the Blue Ridge mountains. (YMCA Blue Ridge Assembly, for those who know).
the exhaustion and feeling of clean sweat while hiking through beautiful land is a feeling I always remember with fondness. Not quite the same high I get at the gym (aaack!)
I took some of it last year that I like better, and I may take some more Monday. If so, perhaps I can post some. This link was just one I found on the net on short notice. It is a pretty place, and yes, better than the gym (which I never go to, and it shows.)
Faithful, I can see this may be very limiting at times. I am sure you love him, and that he is a joy to you most of the time, but constant care can take a toll. I suspect WH wasn't much help either, because his time was being spent elsewhere.
With WH gone, it will be important for you to get some alone time often. Perhaps he will stay (when he visits) and let you get out by your self. I am not suggesting you take up sky diving or anything like that, but even a walk for an hour by your self will be good for you. Think on it.
SLH, I'm sorry to hear about those troubles. It's true... fighting is better than silent resentment. Punching things is hard to resist sometimes, though not helpful I think.
SS:
Quote
If he is afraid of hurting her........... he will hurt her more to let such a relationship continue.
It is interresting to hear about this in light of what Dr Harley says about meeting needs, and love. Especially interresting given the (usual) differences of needs between the sexes. It seems to fit so well, like it was scripted.
I told him the same thing, that the continuing relationship hurts her more than the end of it will.
He wonders if he should maintain some friendship with her. I told him he shouldn't, because every time he provides her with companionship, she'll get her hopes up.
Reminds me of a crush I had once. I could go weeks without seeing this girl, and then one phone call from her and I'd be satisfied. I'd go back to maybe-there's-a-chance land, and I'd start looking forward to the next time I heard from her.
FF, my friend isn't screwed up. There's a good chance he'll be living with me. He's a great guy. I've known him for about five years, and I don't have any doubt about his character.
It's going to be weird having his motorcycle in the house all winter though.
FF, my friend isn't screwed up. There's a good chance he'll be living with me. He's a great guy. I've known him for about five years, and I don't have any doubt about his character.
Well that is a relief, GC. I worry about you taking on something while healing, KWIM? Tell your friend avoiding and placating are not the answer. Much like a bandaid the quicker, cleaner, the better.
You can always buy him a cheap tarp. If you get it big enough, it can wrap completly around it, and not leave any leaks at all.
I would have a hard time with in the house, unless he is paying lots of rent, if so, it will be a help to you.
I have a garage, I'll store it free if I can have the keys too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
At one time I was thiking if you (GC) came by this summer I would take you on the Kanara canyon hike. Had a bike ride planned too. JEM trail, much of it down hill, and I had a bike lined up for you. Bike Rider starting JEM trail Scenery on JEM trail
SS, he is 7. No, he cannot walk. He is in a wheelchair most of the time or mom's lap.
And golly, he's one of the most beautiful angels the Lord allowed on this earth! Have you seen him, SS?
At one time I was thiking if you (GC) came by this summer I would take you on the Kanara canyon hike. Had a bike ride planned too. JEM trail, much of it down hill, and I had a bike lined up for you. Bike Rider starting JEM trail Scenery on JEM trail
Ok, I love kids - Luke 18: 16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
I believe that, and even more so for those that can't care for themselves. It will be wonderful to see them come forth on the morning of the resurrection clothed with glory, with their full faculties. Faithful, I can see him hugging you, and thanking you.
He is failing his family - you are telling him that over and over. Not in so many words, but that is what he is hearing. This is probably what he is thinking - Perhaps not with his conscious mind, but it is there.
I am a failure I can't provide for my family I am a failure I can't make my wife happy I am a failure I can't make my company successful
Exactly! SS, you put it into words better than I ever could. He readily admits this, and admits to feeling attacked when I remind him of my unhappiness.
He said he was in the shower this AM and leaned against the wall and just cried out of sheer frustration, and feeling like a failure.
Failure. It's a word he once never used (Too "Un-Anthony-Robinsesque"). Now he fears it is his epitaph.
I've been there myself.
SS, you punched a wall???? ::Hushed awe:: SS, is it bad to say your confession gives me heart? You've come so far!
His remodeling endeavor began when I revealed to him that at this point, I feel like the girls and I don't mean that much to him. After all, we have lived like this for 11 years and things have only marginally improved. Knowing what a strain our financial situation is for us all, I justified to him my perception of not feeling like he cares ENOUGH (not that he didn't care at all, just didn't care enough) by saying he would've taken greater pains to change things long ago, instead of allowing them to culminate in the mess we are in now. Series of decisions on his part, over and over; not ever taking my opinions into consideration (and yes, I am resentful -- look where we are).
He became enraged, and no, I have never seen him so angry. This was an amazing display of terrible helplessness. I'm not certain how much of it was pride, but I do know he has been working his tail off for years for us; the thought that I could say that "if we mattered enough, he wouldn't have put us through this over and over" devastated him. But this is how I feel, how I've felt for years, and been reluctant to tell him. The truth is, we always did what he wanted to do, and my concerns were unheard. I didn't want to move to Houston. I didn't want him to accept the first job offered to him without even looking around elsewhere. I didn't want to get into such an expensive community, even for the great schools. I didn't want to buy the last car. There's more, but you get the picture. Over and over, year after year. And the money sitch! It really does feel like we weren't that important, or he never would have kept us in such tenuous circumstances for so long.
Last night, when he walked away from me in the middle of (yet another) heated argument, I told him if he did that again I would be gone (unhealthy and bad, I know -- I totally overeacted. I hate being walked away from by him, it just validates all those feelings of my opinion not mattering enough to listen to, shoots down my self-esteem, etc). His answer? He rounded on me and says, "So go. You're gone already. It's almost September and you said you'd be gone by then. Why bother?"
Fatalism, or indifference? All I know is that I've not been distant, unaffectionate or condescending since our big "talk" about my leaving by Sept if things didn't change for the better. I've genuinely tried.
Almost sounds like he wants me to go, huh? that's what I thought. He insists otherwise, but then hasn't made any effort to induce me to stay, since our big talk about things improving. Nada. Zilch. And now he says that me walking out the door, and the threat of it, won't change anything. (My guess, if anything, it would probably make him belligerant, or apathetic, or both).
He has no answer for why he hasn't tried. I pushed, insisting that, for me, the thought of my losing him would induce me to make some drastic changes to entice him to stay. Nothing. I'd like to think his indifference and ambivalence is due to him just being that overwhelmed, but am I completely deluding myself?
I am at the point of thinking he is just too depressed to care. He even admitted that he resents having to worry about my needs when he has so many other stressful issues to contend with. Well, golly, that's a pretty strong indicator for how he feels about me, huh? Put me on the backburner, once again, like the last few years. No wonder my self-esteem has been so low as of late.
You asked about my options, SS. I have pondered them at great length over the last few years.
(1)I could leave, with the kids. I would have to move if I expected to have custody of the kids because this area is far too expensive to live in and pay for daycare. I could never get a decent job with years of unfinished college hanging over my head -- not enough to stay in this area in anything more than the smallest of one-bedroom apts. Hard truth.
(2)I could leave, without the kids. With a job, live nearby if possible and let my babies stay in their home with their father. See them as much as possible per an arrangement. Be an old lonely hag, lol. Harder truth.
(3) Wait it out 2 more years. Have justified doing this in the past because I have only one more DD that will be in school in 2 years. Then maybe bolt. Don't know what could evolve on the relationship front in 2 years. Probably easiest path, for more reasons than love, I am ashamed to say. Things like convenience, and letting the kids grow up a bit. Just live on auto-pilot. Not fun but possible.
(4) -- exhausted this one -- show him how much I love him, support him, be there for him, etc. Expect the same in return. Get hurt again when he doesn't reciprocate. Scared to death of implementing this one again. That's not to say, if he could display a genuine, long-term effort of trying, I would deny him, but I am tired of all these empty promises for things changing. Nothing ever does. And every time I show him exactly what I need from him, percisely, in minute detail, and he *still* refuses to put forth the effort to do it, I lose more and more love for him. He knows this.
What did I miss?
Boy, it felt good to get that out. I think so much more clearly when I can write it all down. I don't know if anyone can offer anything, but thanks for the shoulder, anyhow.
SS, Magnolia's a good drive NNW from Houston. We live S of Houston, closer the coast. But would make just about any drive to meet you, SS.
Much of this is Mars/Venus stuff. If you haven't read the book, I recommend it. You can check it out of the library for free.
You state your feelings - He feels attacked -
It is the WAY IT IS DONE, NOT WHAT YOU ARE DOING. There are ways to get your concerns across to him so that he will feel you are helping him solve problems.
We did that for so long. See why I tell you I have hope?
AS far as the wall, I think I threw something - but yes, I have come far. I still get the feelings sometimes, but now I ask my self "how can we make this work for us."
Don't give up hope. Not yet. Please?
This is so hard, remember, I am a fellow traveler, not a MC. What is hard is communicating the hope I have that you can't see yet.
Went to drop off a couple of cards and a gift for sparrow's old HS friend and her son who's going overseas for the year. Didn't plan on a long stay, but they invited me in and fed me beer all evening. A little embarrassed about the card I gave the woman. Not too serious, but may have been a little too touchy-feely for her. But I've known her a long time, and she was cool about it. Wants to fix me up with her friend. Also invited me to come with her to a scruffy weekend camping getaway with some local music scenesters. And her BF isn't coming! But please do not think this is an occasion for anything weird. I'm tempted to go, to meet some new people. It's a hard call though. I'm supposed to be dedicated to working on the house with every free hour until the refi. I was going to sand my floors this weekend. But man, an overnight with music and camping sounds cool.
My buddy gave notice with Ms. Unrequited today, and he's moving into my house at the end of October. It will be strange having someone here all the time. No more sitting nekkid on the porch with my coffee on Saturday morning. Oh well, getting cold soon anyway.
After hearing his story, I think it's good I'm not getting a female roomie. It didn't occur to me before, the trouble that could create.
GC, re: the offer to go camping: all work and no play. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
A real campfire with real music and real company??? Aaaw, Gray, live a little. When was the last time you were able to do something like this? You've been working your tail off on that house. You've sacrificed your summer vacations. Take a few days' break and renew your spirit. You will be so glad you did.
Relieved your buddy has given notice to Loony Roomie. October, however, is a good month off. I wouldn't be too surprised if Ms. Unrequited continued applying pressure on your friend. She sounds kinda shameless around this guy! How did she take it when he told her of his choice? She was probably thinking, There's still one month to change his mind. . .
No more nekkid Sat. mornings on your porch? ::all the women sigh despairingly:: No, really, it will be a huge adjustment with a roomie, as you know. But you seem to think it will be worth it. As long as you're not the type to pitch fits and slam doors when he brings a date home. . .(lol)
After hearing his story, I think it's good I'm not getting a female roomie. It didn't occur to me before, the trouble that could create.
It occured to us......... but didn't know how to get it across. This way worked well. What an education.
Really, I'll store the motorcycle for free. I'd even fill it with gas and change the oil next spring when I was done with it.
Agree with SLH about the campfire. Right now, you are saying "I don't know how I can make time, there is too much to do, I should just keep working....."
If you go you will be saying "I must have been crazy, I should do this more often. What was I thinking?"
BTW SLH, planets won't solve your problems. It will give you tools to work on them. Hard to bake cakes without cake pans, or an oven. It will help.
The bottom line is that there are a lot of things to learn about being married. We fall in love, and we see through rose colored glasses. We marry, and we have children, and we work, and we keep house, and things start to fall apart at some point for almost everyone. So then what happens.
Do we form the perfect team and tackle the problems as one?
Nah, most of us don't. We see our spouse doing things that drive us crazy, we don't understand them, and after a while we loose trust in them. Then we fight, and things go down hill from there. Ha, Ha, and you thought you were at the bottom.
Smile, I am not making light of what you are going through, but trying to show you it is more common than you might think. Go ahead, smile, you can make it if we did.
Common mistakes - Trying to fix all the stuff that goes wrong.
Money problems are one of the largest causes of D. You do need to fix this. But.......
See Dr Harleys material - if you haven't already read it through. He spent lots of time trying to solve peoples problems, and then he figured out that the problems would mostly solve themselves if the couple was madly in love, so he figured out how to help them fall in love again. It worked. Not all were saved, but the percent went way up.
What needs to happen - You two need to fall in love. You need to work as a team to make a life that is rewarding for BOTH of you. Ti can't continue to try to do it alone by working more hours, and fixing stuff at home when he should be spending time with you. Sure, it needs to be done, and I am not suggesting you spend every weekend at a motel. (Would be fun though.)
I am suggesting you find balance again, which balance has been missing from your lives.
Just how do you do that?
You look at all that is going on. List the stuff that needs to be fixed. Then prioritize the list. I suspect the money problems will come first to both of you. Remember, you are a team. Your goal is the long term happiness of your family. I promise those love feelings can return - stronger than they were at first. Think about that. Remember?
So you have this list, and you have the stuff arranged as to importance.
You start at number one, and you work down, except you take "Falling in love, and meeting each others needs." from wherever it is on the list, and you make let it share first place with whatever is there. If you dont' do this, I can't help you any more, because it is that important, and the rest won't work if you don't realize it. I am giving you credit in advance for "getting it." I assume you will be able to do that.
On being a team - Remember why you married. Not becasue you think the same, but because you think differently. IF YOU WERE THE SAME, WHAT USE WOULD YOU HAVE FOR EACH OTHER???
Righ now, you are using the differences between you as weapons to continue to fight. They should be used as strengths to fight against the OUTSIDE forces that threaten your family. You both know this, but emotions are strong, and it is hard to remember what the goal is when you are hurting. Read this together. Look at each other right now. You know this is true. Question is, what are you going to do about it?
Work on the list - Continue to spend time in things you both enjoy. If you can't do that much YET, agree to trade off doing things he likes, then things she likes. It is far better to find common ground though.
Right now, he most enjoy's working, and fixing stuff. I don't know this for sure, but that would be what a guy that felt he was failing would do. Work more, and fix what is broken. That's the way it feels the best, because then you feel like you are doing something about the problem. In REAL terms. This emotional stuff is nice, you see, but he wants to do some hands on fixing.
ON the other hand, since things are falling apart at the seams, SHE needs to be held, and comforted. She needs to know that even if things are going to pot, he loves her and will make her feel wanted and needed. In fact, she needs it more now than ever, because that is how SHE copes with what is happening.
Teamwork - Learning how to meet each others needs, so that the important work of raising a family, and being happy can continue. It continues best when the H, and the W are happy and fulfilled, and their needs are being met.
Celebrate your differences. Be Happy for them. Make them work FOR YOU, not against you as then have been recently.
The other problems are serious, I am not in any way discounting them. You won't get through them though, unless you are helping each other do it.
I think the scripture goes something like this "It is not good for man to be alone."
There is one other source of help, as great as any other that exists. No, it is much greater. I think you know what I mean. If you are not using this source, you may fail anyway. Be together on this one too. God said "ask and ye shall receive." You need to ask in faith together, as a team.
Please forgive any errors. AS Weaver said, I don't spell well, but no time to proof.
A funny thing happened on the way to the labyrinth.
Did I mention that Cerri has a labyrinth? She does. I walked it Sunday night. Over and over and over again. I was on the phone for some of that time. Walking with Cerri for a little of it.
The first time I approached it, it was dusk and I was alone. Sad and stressed and lonely and wishing for more. Stars were beginning to sprinkle the sky. There's a notch in the trees and the entrance to the labyrinth faces the notch. In the notch were two planets. Venus and Jupiter, I believe. Brilliant, both of them.
I didn't know that at the time. I just looked it up. And yet it makes sense in the context of this conversation.
Men as Mars and women as Venus is an old, old mythology, one that we reshape for our modern understanding of men and women. And yet Mars is not the only male archetype. Jupiter, too, is a male archetype of a very different kind. And there are other female archetypes as well, of course. Earth is often viewed as female.
My own view of these myths is of Mars as warrior and Jupiter as king. See the difference? Mars is younger (though mature), agressive, sometimes angry. Jupiter is older (though not elderly), fatherly, strong, and centered. The king, if you will.
And of women there is the same shift. Venus -- the young lover, sensual, womanly. Earth -- a mature mother, strong, centered. The queen, if you will.
We all have such a journey in our lives. SS talks about it -- from the singular response of man-being-attacked (and therefore creating himself a remodeling project) to the family response of how-do-we-make-this-better?
Women have that same journey, though we take a parallel path. Women patch the drywall less often; we have other ways of expressing our unproductive rages and hurts.
In my walks through the labyrinth, other things happened. It was a weekend of transformation. Cerri says I look different than I once did. She said it was the pearls and the longer hair -- and the inner transformation. More changes are happening.
SS, remember what you said about things showing up when one is ready? I'm uncertain enough to say only that I'll keep you posted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Guys, I just heard from my family in LA!! It has been days and I was about to drive my butt down there to see if they all were alive! I have been so worried about them and the news gets more astounding and horrific every day.
My extended family lives in suburbs of New Orleans, but my parents live in Baton Rouge, about 75 miles or so from there.
I cannot call to LA from here, though have been trying for days. I found out yesterday text messaging works (!), but every phone "circuit has been busy" since Sunday night. I just cannot get through. Today when I tried calling, the message had been changed to,” Due to the hurricane in this area, your call cannot be completed as dialed.” It’s insane. A girlfriend of mine called me twice yesterday and said that occasionally her phones worked, but it was pretty rare.
That same friend, whose father was a detective with the BR police (he has since retired, but keeps in touch with them) has passed along some horror stories of looting, car jackings (right in front of him!), and other crime going on in BR right now. BR has effectively doubled in size. . . and it seems a a scary amount of those poeple who fled to there from New Orleans are thugs. Ti's mom was sent home from work, and some banks are now saying they are “closed to civil unrest”. My girlfriend's elderly grandpa's house (he wasn’t inside) had a tree fall on it, and looters used the hole to make themselves welcome.
So now Baton Rouge also is under attack. How awful for so many people that evacuated from NO and had thought they were safe from the crime, if not the floodwaters.
But then the Baton Rouge press conferences/officials say “all of the problems have been dealt with already and there is no cause for concern”.
Here's portions of an email from my mom:
[color:"purple"] I just got back in my home this morning (finally got power this morning) and will try again to call. We have been trying and trying and all we hear is a busy signal. [Your sister] got power a yesterday morn and [your other sister] just got it last night. --- and I found a RV village where they had power and moved our camper there until our power came back on. [Your sisters and their families] stayed with us in our camper till they got power. My mom, Aunt --- and Uncle ---- with ----, -----, ---- and her son are all at Uncle ----'s home. He only lost power for a short time. Covington, Bogalusa and Slidell do not have power and probably won’t for a long time. All the power poles are down and the entire city is blacked out. Aunt ---- and family might come and stay with us since we also have power now. -----'s mom in Slidell just finished building a new 3000 sq foot home and they heard it is totally gone – nothing left of it. You know --- also lives in Slidell and has not been able to go home and see if her house is standing or not. Slidell got hit pretty hard – even though the news is not showing too much of it. Our next door neighbor has 10 family members from NO staying with her because they have no place to go home to.
It is a nightmare here – like a war zone. Gas is almost impossible to find. Food in the stores is scarce. People are wandering the streets with no home, job or food. Some have guns and we are all afraid they will start car jacking. [/color] On a side note, this has already been happening all over the city, and many of the city's businesses have been closed due to "civil unrest". [color:"purple"] It is almost scary to go out. We hear war helicopters flying over all day long on their way to NO. People are dying because they can’t get out of NO and have no food or water. But we are safe and so very fortunate to still have a home to go to. My company told me to stay home this week and not go to work. I might be able to go back next week – will have to wait and see. Aunt ---- and Uncle ---- don’t have jobs now because they can’t go to work since the whole city is without electricity – there is no place to go to work to. One of my co-workers stayed in NO during the storm and no one has heard from him since it happened. It is just awful.
[Your sister] has had to go to work since people are trying to find jobs. They are keeping their doors locked and only open it when they know who it is or they look pretty safe. The banks and stores (the ones that aren't closing) are locking their doors. You can only use the drive thru at a bank. I don’t blame them. I went to the bank yesterday to cash a check and they gave me too much money. I did not realize it till later. [My husband] is going back today and return what they overpaid me, because he doesn't want me to go out alone. I need gas in my car but hate to go out and try to find it. If a station has gas, the lines are hours long just to get to the pump and there is no guarantee that when you get up there they will have gas. The looters are going nuts. All doors are locked and bolted just in case; we aren't going out unless absilutely necessary. that's okay. I’m just glad to be in my home with power, and everyone okay. Keep in touch and we will do the same. Love, mom [/color]
My family was all so much luckier than so very many. . .
Thanks, Faithful. I am thrilled they are safe, too. I hadn't talked to any of them in 6 days.
I’m trying to use the horrific situation in NO and now growing in BR as a tool to explain to my DD10 how people can behave, etc in situations of unbelievable desperation. There are many examples of great acts of kindness and generosity that almost defy comprehension. But it’s difficult to explain how people can turn on one another so viciously for their own needs. I would fight to the death for my family, but cannot imagine the total lack of compassion or concern for your fellow man in some of the instances I have seen. Not to mention the kind of mentality it takes for someone to sniper-shoot at military aircraft trying to rescue the critically ill from a flooded hospital, etc. As a learning experience for her (one she is following avidly following because so many dear relatives live in that area), it is difficult to share the realities of this horror without sacrificing her tender innocence and beautiful hopes for humankind. And aside from my attempts at explainging this to my DDs, it is deeply saddening to me personally to see part of my youth washed away, in great torrents of death and despair.
The New Orleans I grew up with and loved, the gentle people, the quiet, easy way of life, is gone forever. Perhaps it was truly gone long ago, and I just failed to realize it.
I watched on TV this morning........... it is not pretty.
Thought about asking SLH what was happening..... glad you posted.
It tends to take our mind off our own troubles, and make us wonder why we were so worried. However, the troubles are still there, and still need to be taken care of.
Note the words "taken care of."
Sometimes we look at trouble as an intrusion on our happiness, when it often is the catylist for change that increases our qualithy of life.
Take good care of your troubles, that they may turn to your good. Not that we seek them out, but that we don't let them define us.
I hope Ti is taking this chance to hold you, and look in your eyes, and say "I am so glad YOU are safe, and I am so glad we are together." I hope he uses his opportunities.
We pray for those in need, we do all we can on this end to help in addition to the prayers.
Hi SS! Doing ok, just up and down with pain hitting in cycles and then relief knowing that in some ways there is an end in sight. DD starts counseling on Tuesday.
Hope you enjoy your weekend. We had a blast yesterday.
SS, took DD and DS to the aquarium for the morning. I took the day off from work to spend with them. We spent the morning at the aquarium and went to a special lunch. DS got to pet a shark, sting ray and a sea anenomoe (sp?) Wonderful day and I almost cried from the joy of seeing DS so happy. DD had a great time too.
I missed your "not gettin older, gettin better" day, GC (aka: De Nile in another language is a big effin river, but here in Texas it means YOU HAD ANOTHER BIRTHDAY, HOPE YOU DIDN'T GET DRUNK AND WEAR YOUR CHONIES ON YOUR HEAD day).
When the decision for D was in process did you feel an explosion of sorts inside? I know my WH is still around while you had to go to plan B but I wondered what your experience was? I find myself having these jolts of pain inside and then sometimes what feels like huge explosions of pain in anticipation of the future. I don't know if I am explaining it well or not.
When the decision for D was in process did you feel an explosion of sorts inside? I know my WH is still around while you had to go to plan B but I wondered what your experience was? I find myself having these jolts of pain inside and then sometimes what feels like huge explosions of pain in anticipation of the future. I don't know if I am explaining it well or not.
My wife served me in July '04, filed for divorce in January '05, and we were finally done a month ago, right? Right. So.
I pretty much existed for that year having sporadic pangs hit me, often several times a day. Something would pop into my head, and I'd feel like my soul had the hiccups. I'd be hit with a vague nauseous feeling and a tightness in my gut. I'd breathe in a shaky breath, and if it was real bad, and I was alone, I'd hug my arms around my middle, put my head down, close my eyes, and just soak it up.
I've been divorced for five weeks and it still happens.
ADs make it happen less often.
Funny thing about it though. It's very unpleasant, but there's something else to it, a feeling of being alive and in the moment. An understanding that there's something in that feeling that makes me stronger.
I never experience any real dread of my uncertain future though, even though there could still be major changes in my life, not chosen by me, resulting from what's happened. Usually I hurt the most when I imagine my XWW carrying on happily, having never acknowledged how she hurt me. Her indifference towards me still hurts, though her power to make me feel eradicated is diminished now.
I'm partly responsible for it being this way. When she first left, I told her I meant to forgive her and would always be there for her. She responded with such cruelty and callousness that I had to break my promise. I still feel guilty about that.
What I don't feel guilty about, though, is making sure she understands the truth as I see it. She's done an evil thing that will never be okay, and the shockwaves it's created will echo through all our lives forever. She could be redeemed if that sort of thing mattered to her.
I don't even feel very sorry for her anymore, because I'm pretty sure she doesn't think she's done a bad thing. She thinks she's done what she "had to". I think she did what she had to to keep from growing up.
Oh, hey Kimmy. Thanks. I didn't get drunk, but had a good time.
That stupid book Night, some birthday present! Dang thing made me tear up at the auto dealership today. Wiesel's statement about his first night in Auschwitz:
Never shall I forget that night, the first night in camp, which has turned my life into one long night, seven times cursed and seven times sealed. Never shall I forget that smoke. Never shall I forget the little faces of the children, whose bodies I saw turned into wreaths of smoke beneath a silent blue sky.
Never shall I forget those flames which consumed my faith forever.
Never shall I forget that nocturnal silence which deprived me, for all eternity, of the desire to live. Never shall I forget those moments which murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams to dust. Never shall I forget these things, even if I am condemned to live as long as God Himself. Never.
I am so happy your family and friends are safe! What a tragedy down there.
JJ,
I read your post and it was most enchanting. I wish I could see the new you, and the old you too! lol Good for you, whatever it is that is going on.
Gray,
I missed your birthday! You are but a baby, only 35????? A man doesn't even come into his own until 45, even if his "boys" do get in the way when he sits down at times. LOL
I am never going to read that book!
Faithful, still praying for you and thinking of you daily. I hope you are okay and so glad you had a good day.
SS,
Rock on!!!!!
And Kimmy, congrats on the new job!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike, good to see you again.
2long, you been gone too long but am glad you are doing better at "lurking". LOL
I pretty much existed for that year having sporadic pangs hit me, often several times a day. Something would pop into my head, and I'd feel like my soul had the hiccups. I'd be hit with a vague nauseous feeling and a tightness in my gut. I'd breathe in a shaky breath, and if it was real bad, and I was alone, I'd hug my arms around my middle, put my head down, close my eyes, and just soak it up.
That is pretty close to it yeah. I think what makes it worse right now is
1. We were doing really well together recently and I am stunned by his double life.
2. The baby. That part will likely hurt til the end of my life.
Quote
What I don't feel guilty about, though, is making sure she understands the truth as I see it. She's done an evil thing that will never be okay, and the shockwaves it's created will echo through all our lives forever. She could be redeemed if that sort of thing mattered to her.
Exactly! He could still redeem himself if he so chose to but he doesn't and so the damage and its ripples will continue for the rest of our lives. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Thank you, I hate to ask you about painful stuff but just need to understand what I am going through right now.
Sorry I didn't get this message yesterday. I'll go to sleep soon, I (sorta) promise. DD is here and maybe we'll make it to church tomorrow.
Oh wow, the campfire's out. hmmm. I'll leave it for somebody else to fix up. I'm saving my fuel.
Actually, I've been building a burn pile all summer. Yesterday I cut two overgrown spreading yew's and tossed them on there. The house looks better without them. Maybe I'll light it on the 27th, when the D's final, but that would be a Monday, and making too much drama on the end of the D gives it more power - and I'd rather give it less - just light the fire when the weather and etc. are favorable, like the day after tomorrow, for example. I've still got some brush to cut. We got enough rain out of Katrina that I can be sure the grass won't burn - so it should be safe, but it's been clear for a few days, so the pile should be dry enough. All the cardboard that wrapped my new washer and dryer, soaked with a gallon of unusable year-old 2-stroke mix and should make adequate kindling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
... and if 2Long would drop by with a couple of gallons of LOX, we'll be finished in about 30 seconds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> (we'll have to wear sunglasses)
AD, sorry, no fire tonight. Been refinishing my floors. Sanding, removing shellac. Wiped out.
Ever taken old shellac off a floor? Let me tell you, fun? You haven't had it 'til you've done this. Alcohol, a mop, and lots of rags. So many rags. And so sticky. Oh, daddy.
When the decision for D was in process did you feel an explosion of sorts inside? I know my WH is still around while you had to go to plan B but I wondered what your experience was? I find myself having these jolts of pain inside and then sometimes what feels like huge explosions of pain in anticipation of the future. I don't know if I am explaining it well or not.
Faithful,
These are what people refer to as anxiety attacks, not the kind that I used to get in traffic or in meetings, but the deep, sorrow and fear based ones.
I still get them once in awhile after three months but I know now that I can get through them, so I pray, read or cry , whatever helps the most.
From what I read on here they eventually go away.
For me I realize that my emotional attachment was extremely strong. I do not fear the future, or taking care of myself, or even worry about never loving again, but the emotional bond I had with him still gives me trouble. Working on that.
I hope you begin to have some good days soon and after that the bad ones will come less often and last less long. Sometimes it is even on a smaller scale such as hours instead of days where the grief is so big, and the anxiety attacks come.
For me I realize that my emotional attachment was extremely strong. I do not fear the future, or taking care of myself, or even worry about never loving again, but the emotional bond I had with him still gives me trouble. Working on that.
Mine attachment is strong too. I am starting the book Co-Dependancy No More today. BR recommended some books. I think it will help me detach and care for myself finally. {{Weaver}}
I found him. I'm stunned. I keep almost crying. I tripped over something and fell head over heels. I have the scrapes and bruises to prove it was real -- and the heart to show the inside power of the other kind of falling head over heels.
I can't post more about it yet. There are no words... and there are reasons still to be quiet.
But. The words. Three words. Words I never thought... Words.
I love you.
Words.
And that stunned amazement on both our faces. Suddenly seeing the walls come down, the little boy looking out, the vulnerability and the fear and the love and so much more. Being in someone's arms again. Knowing it to be real.
I never, ever, ever thought I'd feel like this again.
All my best friends are busy or out of town. Okay, I thought, I'll get lots done on the house. I've been working very hard the last few days. Refinishing floors.
So tonight I decided to take a break and go to the movies. These days, if I'm at home, I'm working. So I needed to get out.
I don't know a way the universe could have conspired to put more great-looking women and their friends and husbands and boyfriends in my face during the trip from my house to the theater.
I am so effing sick of feeling like a weirdo. Like a loner and a freak.
The only other person I saw at the movie alone was a guy who sat right behind me wearing a baseball cap with the U.S. Presidential seal on it. I am serious. And despite being alone, throughout the movie he helped us understand what was happening with explanations like, "Oh, it's another flashback."
Quote: ============= Why am I a freak? =============
If you are a freak, then I am in serious trouble :-) I can't really know how weird you are, but I am generally the only one in my class. You are welcome to join in, however. I would love some company <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You are not a freak, GC. You are an intelligent guy looking for the right woman. A run of the mill woman, no matter how pretty, is not a match for a smart, talented guy. I am serious. Don't get matched with anything less than your equal. It will take a little while, but it will happen.
Shellac and alchohol-soaked rags... and fire, <shakes head> Yeah, the fire can wait.
I stripped an old desk a few months ago and it was unbelievably sticky and etc. So, I can only imagine what a mess it would be to strip a whole bunch of hardwood.
As for your movie outing, all I can say is at least you didn't go to Disney World. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
To be honest, never in my entire life have I been to a movie or a concert alone - and I've been alone a lot in my life - just didn't go to movies or concerts.
Well, there was the once, and it was just like you described. I had forgotten about it until you posted this. In the first month or two of our marriage, we (together) went to the symphony. As we walked in the outer door of the concert hall (without tickets, but that is no prob with our local symphony), W said "I don't want to sit with you. Buy two tickets in different sections." I was amazed! Astonished! Of course, that was before I got used to her, before she started smashing things on a large scale at home etc. Well, I was unable to get my mind around this thing. It was so strange, insulting, and unexpected. I was speachless and I didn't know what to do. So, I bought two tickets together, hoping it was a joke - or that she would come to her senses - but she, upon seeing the tickets, was furious. She walked outside - was making a scene, and then was groping around behind the bushes on the ground for awhile - which made no sense to me.
So, I don't remember the details, but one ticket was exchanged, and I ended up sitting by myself in the balcony and she was down in the good seats. There was some freak guy (alone) sitting beside me too - and he was commenting and applauding at the wrong times (very enthusiasticaly) and etc.
Later, she explained that she had thrown her wedding ring in the bushes and that's what she was looking for (I didn't see it and she refused to explain in the heat of battle). There might even have been appologies. I don't remember. I'm sure she doesn't remember the incident at all.
It took me a long time to go anywhere with her again.
Yeah, memories.
Oh, and today was a very bad day. DD was with me. W called, started making serious proposals for reconciliation - went so far as to say, "you want some tonight" - with was about to push me over the edge of whatever it's called, uh, sanity. Then, while we were on the phone, and I was ignoring DD, DD hurt herself. OH MAN. Stitches in her tender skin - on the leg of the most lovely little child. I feel like brown stinking stuff. My W has been astonishingly non-violent. She came over, we went to the emergency room together. I told the nurse that as soon as we left my wife was going to kill me. She said, "I saw that you were watching her - expecting something to happen". I said "it's just a figure of speach, you've probably seen all kinds of things here, I don't want you to think anything..." Nurse, said "I've been married a long time too, so I understood". As soon as DD had her pants on - covering the bandage, she was good to go, seemed as cheerful as ever. We went and ate pizza together, but then W pulled a fast one - dropped me off at my house and took off with DD - who was supposed to be with me tonight and tomorrow. But amazingly, when I talked to her, she wasn't cruel to me - said she felt sorry for me, because she could imagine how I felt. It goes without saying that it's my fault. It's my responsibility to keep my house safe. I told her that if she had asked, I would have agreed for DD to go home with her.
AD.... the most amazingly difficult things happen with kids. Last January, my ex was carrying our daughter across an airport parking lot. She tripped and fell... DD hit her head. She cried some. Then seemed fine and they went on. A while later, DD threw up. They (my ex and her new husband, though they weren't married then) decided to get on the plane anyway.
They flew with DD throwing up -- and with a concussion -- from DC to Chicago. They didn't take her to the ER for something like 5 hours. They didn't call me for that same length of time. She was gone for the entire weekend, staying with her parents, whom I do not trust, and allowing her sister to provide the immediate medical attention, backed up by various other medical professionals (her sister just finished med school and is doing her residency in pediatrics).
I know my ex felt awful about it. I also know how terrifying it was for me to be hundreds of miles from a child who had a serious injury.
When my ex got home, she brought DD directly to me. It allowed DD to avoid some travel time, and it got her directly into my arms. She was still sick and injured, and spent the entire next day sleeping on my lap. The poor thing was just miserable. She would wake up, whimper and suck her thumb and cry, and go back to sleep. I barely moved the whole time.
And here's the thing about all of this. I understand that you feel awful and your wife was scared. Lordy, do I ever. At the same time, taking off with your child? Not okay. That would be, uhm. Well, let's not label it except to say that it's pretty inappropriate. Your choice on how to proceed, but it might not be a bad idea to let her know that you'd like your daughter with you today.
If she won't do it, then document it and chat with your attorney about it. Because it's not a precedent you want to set. Really, really not.
Hi everyone. Just me, sleepless again, but about to give it another try.
House work is going well. This weekend I finished painting the newly-restored walls and ceiling in a bedroom, sanded the floors of one bedroom, and removed all the shellac from the living room floor. That was me, on my hands and knees, scrubbing the floors of a 17' x 9' room with denatured alcohol. Twice. The difference is incredible. If I had any furniture you could put a photo of my living room in one of those coffee table books. My mother's certain the combination of sawdust and alcohol vapor are sure to reach the pilot light and make my house explode.
For the next month, I'm putting every ounce of energy I can spare into this house. Even if I don't get to stay here, it's worth it.
After that, I hope I can take a break and get a life.
Good morning GC. Here's a squidge for you. ((squidge))
True freaks don't care if they are freaks or not, so nope you're not a freak.
Wanna hear a funny? When I was dancing (BALLET, YOU FREAKS), we had to spray our hair down so nary a stray strand escaped. My mom went to Sally's and found the stuff that the old Southern ladies use to make their football helmet hair stay. Guess what the first listed ingredient was? Shellac. I slept on it after my preformance, and when I woke it was exactly the same. This the stuff that's on your floors and it was in my hair. It was a booger to remove, too.
AD - kids hurt themselves. Parents feel bad about it and blame themselves. It's the natural order of things. Z ran around the corner at his dad's and slid into another corner face first. 12 stitches in his forehead. 8 on the upper level of skin and 4 dissolving kind underneath. You imagine his dad was scared blankless of telling me? Bet your heart decorated chonies he was. Moms know stuff happens. We might be mad at first, but once our fear calms down (cos that's where the anger comes from), we know it's okay - we'd rather the young uns be with daddy if something happens and WE'RE not around.
This really is a late-night thread. When I wander over here during the day, I have to dig it out of page 3 half the time. I find that amusing. No, not amusing. I find it really, really cool.
And that stunned amazement on both our faces. Suddenly seeing the walls come down, the little boy looking out, the vulnerability and the fear and the love and so much more. Being in someone's arms again. Knowing it to be real.
I never, ever, ever thought I'd feel like this again.
Very cool! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I want to know how every one is - and I mean EVERYONE - Starting with Graycloud.
I can't believe you would wonder about your self - but then, I have not been where you have been, so I don't understand very well. It's just that I know much of who you are, and I know better than to doubt your basic worth.
So, how are you - and every one else too?
J, Details, but only when you are ready - and can I gush more when I come back?
Faithful, You are really quiet for someone in the middle of something this hard.
Today I went to lunch with my work buddy/future roomie. He's got a new girlfriend, who I know a little.
He asked me lots of questions. I don't fancy myself the most brilliant advisor in the world. I don't have an instinct for it the way some people do. The right answer doesn't come to me naturally. But I tried to help. He has a life planned for himself. It involves certain circumstances, where he wants to live, how he wants to spend his time. It's not all selfish stuff. He feels responsible for his mother and his sisters, feels an obligation to be available to them.
He's beginning to develop strong feelings for his new GF, and is worried, because he sees that what she wants doesn't fit perfectly into that puzzle he's built.
I said, "Let's make it simple. Let's say you want to find a wife and have a family with her and live on a farm in Cable, Wisconsin, with all of them. Let's say that for whatever reason, your wish for that to be your life is so important that you won't allow for anything else. You know, you can probably go up to Cable and find plenty of women your age who are willing to get on board with that. You can have what you want. But are you willing to limit yourself that way? If not, then I think you need to back off on some of your expectations of someone you're going to invite into your life. Maybe you don't want that farm in Cable as bad as you think you do."
It was actually a pretty long conversation. I hope it was helpful to him. The damn fool seems to think I have some idea what I'm talking about.
For me, there's something missing. I feel like there's some step I need to take that I haven't taken. I can post on these boards, and try to advise people a little, and I can talk to my friends and try to help them figure out what to do with their lives. More and more they seem to ask nowadays.
But yakity yak, it seems awfully easy, and risk-free, to try to give people advice. People tell me wow, what you said makes a lot of sense. But I don't think I've gone out on a limb for them. I can talk all day long and feel very proud of my cleverness, and maybe even help someone out a little. But what risk have I taken? I haven't sacrificed anything, or shown a real willingness to put my own plans in jeopardy for the sake of someone else. I haven't really given them anything, but the contents of this big brain that gave me a huge GPA in college. There's no courage in any of it. I think that's what I'm missing. I want to do something that takes real bravery, and I haven't.
Some people think that it's courageous to try and save your marriage when your spouse does something like what mine did. B.S. Trying to save my marriage came naturally to me. The decision to do it was not any kind of struggle. I couldn't see any other way. My love for the sparrow was genuine. The attachment was there, and it was strong strong strong. But I was motivated by something more than a desire to get what I wanted for myself. I couldn't bear to watch her sink, but sink she did, kicking as hard as she could to speed it along.
So there, SS. It ain't so deep and wonderful. For instance, I want to do more musically. I would like to play music with people who are more dedicated to it, and less lazy and boxed in, than the ones I play music with now.
I could do it. I could practice more, write more music, and really start trying to reach out to new people. I live in a great city for it. But it's so much easier to stay with the status quo. If I left my band, the band would probably end, and I'd be letting my friends down. But it's still easier to stay than it is to leave.
I'm sick of doing the easy and safe thing.
Now this is stupid - it's just another f'ristance. I've bumped into a couple of women I liked. Why don't I pursue them? Because I'm afraid that they'd both be creeped out if I tried, or that neither would actually be interested. So I do nothing. I think I'm right, one way or the other. But doesn't that make it easier to do nothing?
There is reaching out that I need to do, and I don't know how to do it. I'm scared to, because some of it is sure to end in tears, and I don't want things disrupted. Things have been disrupted enough. But for my life to go anywhere, it seems I have to invite more uncertainty in, and I don't know how to do it.
I guess I sort of did it last week. I gave a card to the sparrow's old high school friend.
Several years ago, when the sparrow and I lived in Michigan, this woman and her son spent a week with us. We all visited the art museum in Detroit, and in the gift shop sparrow and I bought some greeting cards printed with one of Diego Rivera's frescoes. I still have the cards, and gave her one of those.
In the card I thanked her for being nice to me during this past year. Told her I didn't expect her to do it, but was grateful that she did. I hope it didn't make her feel uncomfortable, but I think it might have. She ripped open the card in front of her BF and her son and I was real embarrassed. I asked her please don't read it out loud. She went in the other room and came back, and said no more about it, except to reminisce a little about that time when she'd visited us. For some reason I felt like a perfect [censored] for what I put in the card.
See this dull agony? Bo-ring! Boo hoo. These are the problems of a very privileged fella. I agonize, then dismiss my struggles because they really are very silly, a lot of them.
AD - kids hurt themselves. Parents feel bad about it and blame themselves. It's the natural order of things. Z ran around the corner at his dad's and slid into another corner face first. 12 stitches in his forehead. 8 on the upper level of skin and 4 dissolving kind underneath. You imagine his dad was scared blankless of telling me? Bet your heart decorated chonies he was. Moms know stuff happens. We might be mad at first, but once our fear calms down (cos that's where the anger comes from), we know it's okay - we'd rather the young uns be with daddy if something happens and WE'RE not around.
- Kimmy
Thanks Kimmy.
You don't know my wife, but all the same, she seems to be quieting down. She still says now and then (with a look on her face) "You did that" - meaning that I hurt DD. But today, she is talking reconciliation again - sort of.
But today, she is talking reconciliation again - sort of.
She will keep up with this until you have moved on. No advice, just a feeling I have. But then you will be in an even worse sitch, with not wanting to take her back but feeling bad about it.
Quote
The damn fool seems to think I have some idea what I'm talking about.
Gray, Only one of my friends gives me the gift of long, thoughtful responses to my troubles. She will spend hours on the phone with me, talking about my particular sitch at the moment and brainstorming ideas of how I can reach my goal. She is one of the biggest gifts in my life, and because she loves me with all sincerety I trust everything she says, knowing that she has said it with only wanting the best for me in mind. Your friends probably feel the same about you. My other friends and even siblings will talk to me, but they know what is best for me, and usually with quite a bit of judgement, giving no real help at all and leaving me feeling even worse. So who do you think I go to when I need to talk to someone and get some help thinking things through?
Like this girl I love, you are probably the very best kind of friend of all and that is why they come to you. They know you will look at their sitch without agenda and judgement and actually help them with what THEY want.
As for me I am doing pretty good. I am still listening to my positive, subliminal affirmation tapes, keeping a daily gratitude journal, reading a lot... and going out and being as sociable as I can.
I even joined a bowling team which starts Thursday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I got a letter from Dan. It was a very kind letter and I am thankful for it. He sent it because I left him one in the camper when I got my things. I won't post the letter here because I do not think that most people here want the best for those who have been a cheater, or for unconditional love to be something we should strive for.
That might be a little disrespectful of me to say though.
I still hope that through providence or something that he will have an "aha" moment and change his ways, but I am not banking on it.
For me I needed to be able to think of everything which happened without hatred and blame, and be able to say goodbye with love. Which I did in my letter, wishing him the best. To me if I loved him, then I would want him to be happy regardless of whether that was with me or not. And I am at peace now.
The guy who I have been "dating" as friends is getting on my nerves. I didn't even answer the phone when he called twice tonight. I get the most uncomfortable feeling that instead of bringing something into my life, he wants to take something from it. Hard to explain, but I think he wants me for my looks, and couldn't give a hoot about me. For instance he says all the time things about my looks and how he actually fell in love with me two years ago when he first saw me. But when he comes over, he offers no help to me at all. My car is acting up, and he didn't even offer to look at it. My lawn is overgrown and he hasn't even mentioned that. Also I was asking him about the best way to get the stuff off of the woodwork on the porch and he said it would be best just to take it off and replace it with new. He said it would be a very easy job really, and I said not for me because I am not a carpenter (he is on the side) and then he said well for you it would be better to use a chemical then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
So now I am totally turned off by him.
Gray, A word of advice - if you do start hanging out with a girl you like, help her around her house with the "man" jobs and take a look at her car.
I just don't trust guys who don't do that I guess.
Oh I just read Gimble's link on Shellac, and I think that is what is on the window trim on the porch. Only it bubbled and broke apart and is as hard as marble. It is nasty looking.
Yes, SS, you can gush when you come back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, if your intuition is telling you things, listen.
GC, I'm so glad you get to answer SS's hard questions. He's so good at the hard ones. And GC, have you thought about maybe not shoving your dull ache into a corner, but really looking at what it's pushing you to do? Do these things you talk about, eh? Do 'em and do 'em again, insanely and intensely. Cerri suggested I do that with the man I ... love (go figure... still shocks me all the way to my toes). So maybe you could do that with the things that you want, too? Insanely, intensely, go after the dreams that seem crazy and out of reach. Sure, you'll fall and break your noggin just like I did. But you'll reach those dreams, too.
It's hard to learn to risk flying again after a fall like we've had. We take many more precautions. We think things through and we consider the ethics and the compassion. We wear our seatbelts and our parachutes and our five-point harnesses and we hope it keeps us from hitting the ground so hard the next time.
What flight is your dull agony pushing you to attempt?
I knew that...not then, but there was a short story in Isaac Asimov's sci fi mag one time, and it went into a little detail about it.
The human capacity to take what the world has to offer and bend it to it's own will and to it's own purposes is enormous don't you think?
Weaver,
If the guy is giving you those snarky feelings - so much that you don't want to talk to him when he rings LISTEN to your feelings. Chances are there's a lot more wrong with him than not being a fixer upper. I knew a guy like that once...it took me for freaking ever to finally get that I wanted him to zark off - even after telling him point blank.
Faithful, You are really quiet for someone in the middle of something this hard.
Eye of the storm, SS. Because we have done so much talking we are getting along so the punch in the stomach subsides only to be hit with the reality of the sitch again. He actually has avoided OW for a few days so we could focus on where we go with all of our ties finacial, emotional, kids, friends etc. I took DD for her first IC session yesterday. I have my very own CA in the making so it is good timing to get her some help.
Hi campers. not too much to report here but i wanted to say hi. i read here a lot and i feel for you all very much.
GC, your post tugged at my heart. you are asking yourself some good questions and that is good, it is good for you to push yourself to make more of yourself, but at the same time, don't be so hard on yourself!!! that is what i read in your post anyway. you are a great guy. give yourself time and you will figure it all out.
Weaver
Quote
I do not think that most people here want the best for those who have been a cheater, or for unconditional love to be something we should strive for.
that was very odd to read!!! i get the impression that most people here want the best for me and i was a cheater!! and as for unconditional love, the focus here is always, look at yourself, look at your own behaviours which to me interprets to love unconditionally, don't look at what your S is doing, look at yourself and love.
GC, I know you are a man worth knowing. You can't hide that part of you. Why do you think so many of us come here to sit by your campfire? We are drawn to you like marshmellows to a campfire. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS, nothing to report, but thank you for asking. Just watching & trying to help the flood of evacuees entering our city. We're at over 350,000+, including all the Houston areas. And, unfortunately, we are now suffering bouts of crime and destruction due to the criminal element which also came over. It's a shame; those numbers are labeling all of the evacuees as bad people. They're not, but it's hard to embrace the thousands who are still arriving daily, when businesses around the Astrodome, etc are closing due to the increasing amount burglaries, vandalism, etc.
How was your weekend? Your date? Did you get any more pictures?
FF, how did DD's IC session go? You mentioned she may be adopting the CA's decree. I often think of your daughter and the demons she is being forced to parry at such a tender age. The photos of her in her beautiful dress at that wedding you recently attended won't leave my mind. Sweet, young thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Are you still planning on going to Phil? What will you guys do there?
JJ, are you going to ever tell us MORE? I am dying over here. Don't be so cryptic <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
GC, I know this is some serious oversimplification, but you want change. You've outlined some specific areas where change would be good for you. And you know that staying in your comfort zone isn't really all that comfortable, after all. What else could you do? What are your options, specifically? What are your ties that bind? Which is more painful for you, staying where you are, or moving on? I'm not saying it's easy (it most certainly is NOT, and I hope you don't feel like I am talking down to you) but it is definintely more simple when reduced to mere words, a plan of sorts. (Dang, if I didn't have such a stubborn H, this would be some good advice. Ah, my kingdom for POJA!)
And by the way, GC, we chicks use our Freak Radar, of course irl, but even on the board. We can easily spot a freak a mile off, and adjust our contact accordingly. And yet here we happy campers sit! Just let me say: A freak you are not. Nope, uh-uh. Not even close, GC. Heck, if I was a hot young single thing, you're the kind of guy I'd be persuing with a relentless, single-minded passion, LOL!
Weaver, life's too short to spend time with someone you're not happy with, even marginally, as "friends". If you're this unhappy with him now, imagine the growing resentment you'll begin to foster towards this guy if he continues to hang around. Cut him loose -- over and over if he's too dense to get the picture the first dozen times -- and move towards your happiness. You'll not find it with him, honey, and you need to be fair to him and yourself.
Oh, and Weaves, I'd be interested in what Dan has to say, and I could/would respond without bitterness or anger. But I guess I am interested in what specifically you are concerned we might think. Forgiveness is never a bad thing, and neither is cherishing happier times forever. But does the letter hint at something else?
Re: your bowling league; I love bowling, but have little time to go. I hope you have a good time with your league!
Kimmy, you've been fairly quiet about the custody thing. How are the kiddos? Any more news?
AD, I hope DD is doing better.
FL, whad'up, sister? Long time no hear. How have you been?
And why the heck is Binder so quiet? I'm really getting concerned, mister. Still no updates that I've seen.
Howdy, SLH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> DD's IC went ok she was uncomfortable but managed through it. Yep CA in the making but we will nip that one in the bud LOL. We are going to Philly for a conference on encephalitis which is what DS had 6 years ago. The icing on the cake is meeting my long time on line buddies form my support group. I am quite excited about it. DS is staying home with dad while DD goes with me. Good mom/daughter time as well.
FL, whad'up, sister? Long time no hear. How have you been?
Hi SLH,
well i was pretty unstable last week but i have gotten back my internal peace. H and I had a very nice weekend followed by our 19th anniversary yesterday. I took the day off and we spent it together. it was a very nice day. i was a bit anxious about it, mostly cuz i figure H has nothing to celebrate. but the worry was for nothing. once i focused on just providing a stress free, relaxing weekend for him (and me) everything worked out just fine.
All gentlemen please be careful reading the following:
We had mijo circumcised yesterday. OW let us take him home as we are "better able to care for him." (her words)
I have gone back to work full time so that we will be able to afford to pay the lawyer. Meanwhile, we are still collecting evidence of OWs neglect (she left the kids with her druggie brother, who has had his own kids taken by CPS this weekend. Why? So she could go out drinking - CPS and SAPD were called to report it - so it's on record).
That's about it. Called Wookie awhile ago and mijo acts like nothing has happened "down there" - that is, until you change his diaper.
I am glad you are working together regarding getting the atty and pursuing this coarse.!
FL,
Yes, I am odd and odd things often come out of my mouth. Everyone on this thread just puts up with it though, been going on so long I guess. I am on another website which focuses entirely on self and growth. The WS/OP/Walkaway are entirely irrelevant in every aspect of personal recovery. Very different from here, in my odd opinion. LOL BTW been following your sitch for awhile and wish you the very best.
SLH,
I will email you the letter from Dan.
To everyone,
Yes I am ending my friendship with him. At least I am getting red flags. Can you believe it? Me getting red flags, I think that must mean I am becoming somewhat healthy where guys are concerned.
And it feels so good to start feeling happy again. That attachment is fading Faith. And I would really like to spend a long time alone so that I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am truly happy inside and have something to give and share, if love ever does come to town again.
Glad to see you are able to work together with him now to handle things amicably.
I just re read my post to you and thought it sounded a little crass, or sarcastic or something. I didn't mean it that way at all. I understand what you are saying very much, but I did not share that experience here. I focused so much on my exSO who is a cheater, and was married when I met that I completely lost site of my part in our disastrous relationship. I let blame rule, and was not a very nice person. I regret that I didn't just look in the mirror, change what I needed to about me and let him follow his own path to healing. But then again it could have been my own guilt which led me to pull the wrong stuff from this website and miss all the good stuff about self-focus and improving oneself first and foremost.
just spoke with my attorney. It will take him a couple weeks to finish our case and then he said it will sit on a judge's desk for about 3 weeks then....finished. Tomorrow is our 14th wedding anniversary. We are going out to dinner anyway. I guess we have to break this to our kids sooner than I thought. I feel sick to my stomach
Thank you, Weaver. Funny my attorney just was so puzzled why we are on this path again. When I told him the A never stopped he said "then why did he want to continue the marriage and stop the D?" I just don't get it either.
Kimmy, so excited to hear that progress is being made in the fight for justice against the DNA Donor. I keep hoping that soon you can give us the ultimate good news. . .
Thanks to all for kind words. Dull agony. Nice, J. SLH, I do want change, and I think I'm preparing for it. My big problem - after 15 months of scrupulously looking after myself, I'm ready to start looking out for someone else.
Sure enough, another friend talked to me today about a problem she's having - a question of whether she has any obligation to get involved in a dispute between two colleagues. Never mind the details. Mostly she needed someone to tell her it's okay to stay out of the situation. But her situation is very, very tricky, and she was unsure.
FF... sorry you've reached an anniversary in the middle of everything.
Have you ever gone through a period, or periods, of being angry?
Eye of the storm.
Okay weaver. Shellac is not nasty stuff. But I don't know how widely it's been used in exterior applications. Anyway, here's what you should do. Go get a gallon of denatured alcohol at the hardware store or home center (around $10). It's not evil stuff, just ethanol with something added to it, maybe methanol, to make it poisonous. Soak a sponge in it, and wipe a nice heavy pool of it on a small section of that business on your porch. Give it a minute, then wipe it off with a paper towel. If it's sticky and gloopy, the finish is shellac. If it just smiles back at the alcohol, it's a synthetic resin that's tougher to remove. Shellac you can remove with alcohol, you'll just need lots of rags. Adding mineral spirits to the alcohol will slow its evaporation, but isn't really necessary.
Shoot, I should just come over and do it for you.
By the way, that fella's attitude - "just tear it down and replace it with something new" - makes me CRAZY. But then I haven't seen your porch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You're right weaver, there are many bigwigs here that do not believe in unconditional love. I do, but I also believe in the need to be fierce when circumstances demand it. Maybe you'll remember, about two months ago I sent a harsh reply to one of sparrow's emails. I felt awful about it afterward. But after getting some distance from the emotions, I realized it was a good thing to do, and oddly enough, a loving thing to do.
Distinguishing between cathartic anger, know-it-all sanctimoniousness, and fierce, loving, self-protection is tough, no doubt.
I just re read my post to you and thought it sounded a little crass, or sarcastic or something.
no, you post did not sound crass or sarcastic or anything negative in my ears. and thanks for the well wishes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
FF, sending you prayers and love today. do something extra nice for yourself today!! ok??
has WH come up with a date that he plans to move out on yet? it must be so hard having this cloud over your head. i would think it will not start to clear until the kids know, he moves out and you can start moving nothing but forward. {{{{{FF}}}}}
there are many bigwigs here that do not believe in unconditional love.
ok, i just HAVE to ask. who in the world are you talking about??? i obviously must not read posts by these people because i just don't see it.
if you are saying unconditional love = doormat, i understand what you mean. but i don't think anyone here really believes anyone should be a doormat either.
SLH, thanks for asking. I've been trying to figure out what to say, what more details might be useful. My mind goes entirely blank when I try to think about it. Err, do you want to know about the look in his eyes? How about what it felt like when our hands touched? It's sad how we as a culture rarely write about the mushy stuff. We think it's too erotic, even when it's.... just mushy.
And so I could tell you what he does for a living. I could tell you the self-deprecating, and untrue, things he says about his outer, public self. I could tell you about his family, the ex spouse, the kids. I could tell you about where he lives.
But that would be giving things away that aren't mine, so I won't.
So ... I could tell you how we met. We were introduced by a mutual friend at a party a couple years ago. I could tell you about how we saw each other occasionally after that and about the attraction that I felt instantly -- and at a time when an attraction to someone else was a challenge to leading an ethical life, not a pleasure.
I could tell you how that attraction returned and was stronger each time I saw him. I protected my marriage, made the ethical choices, and still knew that he was dangerous to me. I was rotten to him sometimes, hoping he'd disappear and relieve me of the worry of knowing him. I could talk, too, about what he did to protect my marriage, and me, and himself. Because those things were very important to him, too.
I could tell you about how good it felt to keep my boundaries where they needed to be, even though it was incredibly difficult. I could tell you about how frustrating it was, too.
And there was the support of that same mutual friend, advising again and again the ethical course of action. Suggesting ways to keep boundaries where they needed to be, calming my jangling nerves.
I could say how that lasted for six months or so, and then the attraction was too strong, and our contact had to change or end. And so it changed -- and dropped off considerably -- and nearly ended. He started dating someone (he was recently divorced) and that helped cool things between us.
I could tell you how my worldview changed when my ex got engaged and I was finally free. Anyone remember the utter freedom I felt when that happened? The relief? It was profound. I started dating soon thereafter, fun dates that I had no desire to be serious about. Just a return to an interaction I'd left a long while ago.
After that, I saw him one last time. He stayed at my house. But he was still dating someone else then and we stayed on opposite sides of every group we were in for an entire weekend. We barely spoke to each other, though we were polite. And then everyone else left and we were by ourselves.
And in that space, the silence between us became an entirely different kind of quiet.
There was a single kiss.
It left us both utterly breathless and giddy. And then, the next day, pain and confusion.
I felt utterly lost when he responded with fear and ... something. I'm not sure what the right word is. But he knew he was walking too close to the line, even if his dating relationship wasn't quite at a "we're exclusive" level in his mind... it was probably that way in his girlfriend's mind.
And so there was the beginning of a silence between us, one that stretched for days and that hurt and hurt and hurt.
And then we spoke one last time, and we chose to end contact. To protect the dating relationship he enjoyed and to protect me from forever hoping there could be more between us. I could tell you about the difficult conversation he had with his girlfriend, though I didn't hear about that until later.
I could tell you how I cried. Silently, with very few to see or comfort me. I never posted about it. Only a very few knew about it.
I could tell you about the silence that stretched for weeks into months. I could tell you about nine solid months without any contact at all. I would occasionally ask mutual friends how he was. They were wise friends. All I would hear is, "He's fine."
We both went on with our lives. We both dated. We both grew. We both healed.
And then, though various channels (and NOT our mutual friend), I heard that his girlfriend had broken up with him a week after mine broke up with me. It was November when we kissed... and now it was almost the end of August. Nine months. I suppose I could look up the exact dates, but I think I won't.
I could tell you, though perhaps you wouldn't believe me, that I already knew something was different in his life. I could feel his energy again, in a way that I had not in the nine months since we'd had contact.
I could tell you about our mutual friend, the same one who introduced us in the first place. I could tell you about how I said, in rather fierce terms, that I was starting to interact with his energy again and that it was making me crazy.
And she asked me something gentle, and instead of the angry this-is-making-me-crazy response I'd been giving, it stopped me in my tracks and I really -felt- what I'd been feeling and fighting for a long, long time. And I said, softly, "I'd really like to see him again."
I could tell you about how we sat and talked when I visited her. She looked at me and she listened and she knew that it was time, and that what she'd seen long before was a true seeing, though I didn't know about that until later either. She's like that.
She supported and encouraged and hugged me. She fed me wine (lots of wine) and said, "You know, maybe you ought to call him."
And she said, as I hesitated in my fear, "You know, very few people fight for their loves the way you fought for yours. And even fewer have the opportunity to fight for a second love as great as the first. You have that chance, you know. Maybe you should take it."
I hear she did a fair job of shoving him along toward returning to contact with me in those few days, too.
Somewhere in there I sent him a text message and he answered and then, as I was walking the labyrinth, he called. A phone call I've mentioned before.
For two hours that night we talked, and I said all the things that I had thought for a long while and had been too frightened and sad to say. I stripped away all the reserve and the caution and the careful, thoughtful ways that I speak and I said in raw tones the things that I needed to say. Because it wasn't about whether the love could be acted on anymore. I'd gotten used to love that just sat there, useful as an old moth-eaten sweater. I just needed to acknowledge it, to speak its truth, just once. Just to know that I had. I knew the pain of doing that kind of thing. I'd done it before in other times and places.
Imagine my surprise when he said he'd missed me too. When he said that there had been so many times when he would be doing something and he'd think, "What would J do? What would J say?" Imagine my surprise when he admitted all the moments of attraction, of desire, that had haunted his own journey to this place. Imagine.
And our good friend helped more afterwards. "So," she said the next morning when she saw me. "How did it go?"
"It doesn't feel real," I said. "After so long, it doesn't feel remotely real. It feels like a dream." And she watched me as a small, hesitant smile wandered across my face. "I think he might like me."
And she nodded knowingly. "MmmmHmmmmmm."
So then she asked when we were going to see each other... and he -- my cautious friend who rarely does anything impulsive -- bought himself a plane ticket for that very weekend and on Friday, we met at the airport.
Five days after that return to contact.
And this is where the story ends for the moment. Because if I write about what happened when we met at the airport, it's going to take me pages and pages and pages.
This is still very new, still very young and somehow perhaps vulnerable. There are many obstacles. Distance, family, jobs, other commitments in our lives. And yet, what our mutual friend said was entirely true. Very few people have the chance to fight for a second love like this one. I think... that I will.
How beautiful. Thank you, you are always making me feel good some how. I so believe in love, in all it's glory and power. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Kimmy,
Unconditional love I have for my daughter, as my parents had for me and for each other. It lives, it is just so hard to reach with your SO because of fear, and expectations and emotional attachment. But if you could strip all those things away, then what would remain would be unconditional love. This is what I believe.
I've got so many quotes about fear that I've used over the years - YEARS - I've been here. Favorite is from "The Power of Now". I've quoted that before, but not in a long while.
Another favorite is Peter Gabriel's "Darkness":
"I’m scared of swimming in the sea - Dark shapes moving under me. Every fear I swallow makes me small. Inconsequential things occur. Alarms are triggered, Memories stir.
It’s not the way it has to be.
I’m afraid of what I do not know. I hate being undermined. I’m afraid I can be devil-man And I’m scared to be divine. Don’t mess with me my fuse is short, Beneath this skin, these fragments caught.
When I allow it to be, There’s no control over me. I have my fears, But they do not have me.
Walking through the undergrowth, to the house in the woods. The deeper I go, the darker it gets. I peer through the window, Knock at the door, And the monster I was So afraid of Lies curled up on the floor. Is curled up on the floor just like a baby boy.
I cry until I laugh.
I’m afraid of being mothered, With my balls shut in the pen. I’m afraid of loving women And I’m scared of loving men. Flashbacks coming in every night Don’t tell me everything’s alright.
When I allow it to be, It has no control over me. I own my fear, So it doesn’t own me.
Those are cool lyrics 2long. You sure do like Gabriel. My new assistant love him too. She brought in a little stereo and some of his CD's to our office, so I am growing to really enjoy him too.
Been reading all the forgiveness stuff on Spacecase's site again. It's a process to be sure.
Awwwww, no fire tonight. But soon it'll be cold. I've restored my real-life fireplace, made my living room pretty and comfortable. Well almost.
Fires are not far away.
These comforts, these sources of warmth, give us a reason to embrace the death that happens around this time of year. What do women say when winter comes? "Oh boy, sweater weather!"
But where I live, by the time you get to February, ouch. Your backyard seems desolate and lifeless as Mars. You hardly believe that only a few months ago you walked barefoot on this ground. You're tired of shoveling snow, and really, really tired of the sensation you get when, at 7 A.M., in what looks no different from the dead of night, you drop into the driver's seat of your car. It's ten below. With the cessation of motion and contact with a car seat, an object that hours ago reached equilibrium with a fearsome, lifeless environment, you shudder, and yourself begin the plunge toward that death-like, motionless void of cold.
Oh, please, when I die, do not bury me in a place like this. Turn my body to ashes and throw them in a shallow part of the tropical sea. Do it somewhere beautiful and warm. If there's a monument, pay for a park bench with my name on it. That's more than enough.
You turn the key and breathe out. A cloud lit by dashboard lights and streetlight, and nothing else, comes out of your mouth and drifts in front of your face, and you get moving. Backward.
Later, after work, you find ways to advance the return of life. A gardener takes out his calendar and realizes he's got to start his lettuce seeds in a week. A hiker begins planning a springtime trip.
Of course this is a metaphor, which a solitary man like me hopes he's at the end of his own winter, but because life doesn't have the regular, predictable cycles of nature, I wonder if winter is actually near its end.
I've made most of the preparations for this metaphorical spring, but how much can I choose whether it's about to begin? And what are its signs?
Last night I dreamed I went to the sparrow's wedding. I found the unoccupied seat nearest the front of the church. Only when the pastor said "if anybody must speak against this union, speak now" did I realize why I was there. I stuck out in my austere clothing: jeans and a white t-shirt, in a church full of suits and dresses. I saw former in-laws who must have easily spotted me, but had not acknowledged my presence.
I stood up and began to speak.
I had this dream last night. No kidding.
I don't feel so terrible these days, but I hate that these are still the contents of my dreams. They're like an April snowstorm. Except they happen all the time.
Tonight I took old finish off another section of my floor. I picked up my friend at the airport - he's been on vacation for a week, visiting another pal in California. After, I met another friend for a beer, at the bar in my neighborhood where he met his new girlfriend, one of the waitresses. I chatted up the GF's pretty roommate, but not to worry - her boyfriend was right there the whole while.
Golly, I'm friends with lots of people.
From my lips to god's ears, I'm going out for a few laughs tomorrow.
>Turn my body to ashes and throw them in a shallow part of the tropical sea.
Or mix you up with concrete and sink you so you can become a coral reef.
Me, I'm gonna be a diamond (or a few diamonds - one for the husband and one for each kid).
There is something good ahead, GC. You just have to look at it the right way.
For 2long and anyone else:
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will allow my fear to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone I will turn my inner eye to see its path. And where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."
I've been known to say the Litany Against Fear at times.
My cousin and I have tonkas and tinkertoys that we passed to our kids.
I still love a good Tonka truck. Leo (my youngest) gets one almost every Christmas....from the big chunky ones for little guys, to the really tough Hummer Police vehicle.
I remember a show that was on PBS very early Sunday mornings. It was a semi-educational show, but really it was just a bunch of stoner surfers who lived in a shack on the beach clowning for 30 minutes. It was on at like 6 A.M.
My favorite was a 5-minute serial on the Mickey Mouse Show called "Journey 2 the Beginning of Time", where some kids in a boat go down a river back in2 time.
And I'll always remember Bob Denver as Maynard, not Gilligan.
There was an episode of The Outer Limits (the original, not the color stuff) where the villain not only had a weapon that would kill someone, it would "uncreate" them. Not only would you be dead, you'd have never existed in the first place...
I loved the show, but some episodes had me sleeping with the lights on for a 2ple nights afterward...
Personally, I think my favorites from that era were...
The Seven Million Dollar Man Wonder Woman The Bionic Woman The Wonder Twins (and the rest of the superheroes on Saturday mornings; I liked Aquaman, too) The Big Three (yes, I was a Trekker when I was six)
Trixie Belden The Hardy Boys Curious George (from earlier in my life, but still the 70s) Watership Down Stuart Little The Trumpet of the Swan Little Women Little House on the Prairie Anne of Green Gables
Cat Stevens Neil Diamond John Denver The Mystic Moods Orchestra Vivaldi's Concerto for Mixed Instruments (I listened to it over and over and over again.)
And my bike.
Hmm. There are many more that I could probably add to the list. I'll stop there.
JJ - I'm a huge fan of the original JLA. Now I'm a huge fan of the new one. Another book by Richard Adams (watership down) that I adore is Maia. It's awesome! Infact, we have a moderator on these boards with the name of one of the main character's mother....beautiful sub-story about that character.
Post 70s Conan comic books are a fave, too.
Did anyone ever see the Night Gallery episode where the lady is buried alive in the glass coffin. Screaming meemie scared for weeks. (shudder)
See dearest Weaver, you killed nothing. We just paused for a breath.
I didn't go out last night. I was so tired. Could have gone to sleep at 8, but instead stayed up until after 2.
"I'm a night owl" is a facile way to put it. I think I have a real problem, almost a fetish for being awake late at night even though I'm tired, even though I have to get up at 6:30.
Before going to sleep, I read some of The Road Less Traveled, the anecdotes, or case studies if you want.
Peck's personal history troubles me. He's very glib when asked about his past infidelities. He admits that the only reason they ended was because he became impotent. His wife left him last year. He has children who will not speak to him. He seems to think everything that affects him is about him. These facts damage his credibility with me, no doubt.
I'm digressing, but this is probably worthwhile because Peck is mentioned around here often enough.
I don't think hypocrisy is so great a crime that the work done by someone guilty of it should be dismissed. So I read things Peck wrote with as much skepticism as I can manage.
As I finally turned in and was trying to sleep, I thought more about my kink for staying awake late. I'd never thought of it as a behavior that might be rooted in my early experience, or as something that might be part of a real psychological ailment.
I've always deprived myself of sleep. When I was a boy I regularly stayed up reading until 1 or 2 A.M. In my early adolescence I sat up almost every night with a headphone plugged into a little T.V. in my room, watching David Letterman and usually whatever weird show came on after (anyone remember Morton Downey, Jr.?).
In college I stayed up studying until 2 A.M. pretty much every night, even if I had an 8:00 the next day.
In my marriage, my habits bothered my wife and damaged our relationship. When I was in grad school, she used to fall asleep on the couch next to me while I studied. Later, she'd just go to bed without me, and would occasionally complain.
I've paid the price for depriving myself of sleep thousands of times, and I still do it. I know it's not good for me, and I'm starting to get an idea of where it comes from.
My parents had awful, screaming fights when I was a child. I don't remember a time when it wasn't this way. The fights happened most every day, and went on for hours. In the summer the sound of Mom's screaming voice would echo across the neighborhood. The embarrassment was awful.
At night, after everyone had gone to sleep, my house was finally quiet. Maybe this peace was the reward that conditioned me into staying up at night.
I think my mother had some undiagnosed hormonal difficulties, and she was always frustrated because her various resentments, though always loudly voiced, were dismissed by my father. She's one of the kindest, most generous people around, and I don't have any lingering resentment about the discomfort I felt over all that anger and yelling.
When you try your best, but you don't succeed When you get what you want, but not what you need When you feel so tired, but you can't sleep Stuck in reverse
And the tears come streaming down your face When you lose something you can't replace When you love someone but it goes to waste Could it be worse?
Lights will guide you home And ignite your bones And I will try to fix you
When high up above or down below When you're too in love to let it go But if you never try you'll never know Just what you're worth
Lights will guide you home And ignite your bones And I will try to fix you
Tears stream down your face When you lose something you cannot replace Tears stream down your face And I...
Tears stream down your face I promise you I will learn from my mistakes Tears stream down your face And I...
Hey Now! This transported Cajun Queenie *likes* Blue Bayou, thank you very much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
I guess the allure of sipping coffee on quiet blue mornings in the swamps of LA, leaning over the porch of your stilted house and smiling down on the gators circling your pirogues isn't shared by all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
"I thought that you knew it all Well you've seen it ten times before. I thought that you had it down With both your feet on the ground. I love slow ... slow but deep. Feigned affections wash over me. Dream on my dear And renounce temporal obligations. Dream on my dear It's a sleep from which you may not awaken.
You build me up then you knock me down. You play the fool while I play the clown. We keep time to the beat of an old slave drum. You raise my hopes then you raise the odds You tell me that I dream too much Now I'm serving time in disillusionment.
I don't believe you anymore ... I don't believe you.
I thought that I knew it all I'd seen all the signs before. I thought that you were the one In darkness my heart was won.
You build me up then you knock me down. You play the fool while I play the clown. We keep time to the beat of an old slave drum. You raise my hopes then you raise the odds You tell me that I dream too much Now I'm serving time in a domestic graveyard.
I don't believe you anymore ... I don't believe you.
Never let it be said I was untrue I never found a home inside of you. Never let it be said I was untrue I gave you all my time"
"In the big house Where the sun lives With the walls so white and blue In the red soil All the green grows And the winds blow across your face They blow across your heart
It's the time of the turning and there's something stirring outside It's the time of turning and we'd better learn to say our goodbyes
All the earth breaks Like a stale bread And the seeds are folded in the soil Oh the sun pours Then the rains fall While the roots reach out right through the ground They reach out through the ground
It's the time of turning and there's something stirring outside It's the time of turning and the old world's falling Nothing you can do can stop the next emerging Time of the turning and we'd better learn to say our goodbyes If we can stand up When all else falls down We'll last through the winter We'll last through the storms We'll last through the north winds That bring down the ice and snow We'll last through the long nights Till the green field's growing again Growing again"
"The curtains are drawn Now the fire warms the room. Meanwhile outside Wind from the northeast chills the air, It will soon be snowing out there.
And some there are Cold, they prepare for a sleepless night. Maybe this will be their last fight.
But we're safe in each other's embrace, All fears go out as I look on your face-
Better think awhile Or I may never think again. If this were the last day of your life, my friend, Tell me, what do you think you would do then?
Stand up to the blow that fate has struck upon you, Make the most of all you still have coming to you, or Lay down on the ground and let the tears run from you, Crying to the grass and trees and heaven finally on your knees
Let me live again, let life come find me wanting. Spring must strike again against the shield of winter. Let me feel once more the arms of love surround me, Telling me the danger's past, I need not fear the icy blast again.
Laughter, music and perfume linger here And there, and there, Wine flows from flask to glass and mouth, As it soothes, confusing our doubts.
And soon we feel, Why do a single thing today, There's tomorrow sure as I'm here.
So the days they turn into years And still no tomorrow appears.
This is an easy one, but what the hey. God Bless The Flaming Lips.
Do you realize That you have the most beautiful face? Do you realize We're floating in space? Do you realize That happiness makes you cry? Do you realize That everyone You know Someday Will die?
And instead of saying all of your goodbyes Let them know you realize that life goes fast It's hard to make the good things last You realize the sun doesn't go down It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
Do you realize?
Do you realize That everyone You know Someday Will die?
And instead of saying all of your goodbyes Let them know you realize that life goes fast It's hard to make the good things last You realize the sun doesn't go down It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
Do you realize That you have the most beautiful face?
2long... I know what's happened recently, but I don't know what exactly your plan is for responding to it, if you respond at all.
I think it would be strange to have one's feelings for his spouse erode as yours must have over these years since you've known.
We all have these different experiences of grief, don't we? Is the WS there, is she not? Does she want a divorce, or doesn't she? Is the OP a confused and immature person, or just an a-hole... and is there any difference?
My own experience... over a period of about six weeks, my M went from vague doldrums to rubble, and that was the end, though the death rattle lasted a year. And more, really, because I still don't feel especially single. How could I?
I think that even if it's only symbolic, an event that officially marks the end - even if I'm the only one who knows it - will be a good thing.
When I buy my house from myself, I'm planning to have a party. If it's cold, there'll be a fire. And there will be music, and hopefully a decent number of people will come.
I'm wondering, is there anything I can do to give this event some lasting significance?
I wasn't thinking of a chicken sacrifice, exactly.
Mmmmmaybe the fumes from alcohol and chemical stripper are getting to me...
Lots 2 ponder. Most, I'll have 2 get back 2 you after I've had time 2 think a bit on things we said 2 each other last night and this mroning. I'll need 2 reflect a while.
But I think it's clear that an ending occured, and I'm trying 2 decide whether it was the "End of the Affair", or if it's just more wishful thinking on my part.
By the way, I put that in quotes because it's the same as the title of the Ray Finnes/Julianne Moore movie that I had seen about a year or so before D-day while on travel. I thought it was an interesting movie (in retrospect, it probably seemed that way at the time because I was a fan of Moore). After d-day, I was told by my W that she and RM saw it, and they compared me 2 the wimpy BH in the movie, which I 2k great issue with (not surprisingly). Recently, it was on HBO (like, why do they show multi-year old movies on a channel you pay extra for??), and I watched it again from start 2 finish. My opinion of the movie changed again. Words 2 describe? "S2pid" and "$h!++y" romanticization of infidelity came first 2 my mind. I was more amazed at the transformation of my whole thought process in the 5 years or so since I first saw it than the sheer $h!++!ne$$ of the movie!
Anyway, digression over. In any case, I sense a real "ending" has taken place. Problem is how I feel about it. I have energy left, but not much. What motivates me now, maybe more than ever, is the prospect of doing the OTHER thing - splitting our assets and going forward without resentment.
So, I'm looking for more gas 2 keep this up somewhat longer, 2 see what she truly thinks our M is worth. And maybe it'll be enough for me 2 want 2 save it still.
I agree with Kimmy, 2Long. You are a treasured friend at this campfire and it saddens my heart to see you have to stand up and fight yet another dragon in your marriage. I can't imagine the fatigue you must be feeling.
Do try to take care of yourself, luv. Leave the outside forces be for a while, whilst you nurse your own soul. It has so much to offer, so much that is underappreciated, but that we all know is there, and love. And like Kimmy said, once you begin to be renewed, then you can face those dragons anew. It's not avoidance, or putting your head in the sand; it's just a small, well-deserved respite, a re-awakening of the soul.
Gray, that's my favorite FL song. I need to burn another disc of it because I've been giving all my compilations away. When friends hear it (usually we're driving somewhere, and it's on my player), they have to know who it is.
Well if this don't blow the $hi+ off a flat rock! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
...we're in something akin 2 recovery, methinks!
I gotta run (seriously, sorry!), but I'll post details when I can...
Aaawww, SS, I thought you were on vacation or something. You wish, huh?
FF, you are such a honey; thanks for asking about me. Things here are holding, I guess. H just got back in town from 5 days in the Gulf and having slept only 14 hours total. He's caught some ferocious virus, but where is he anyway? At work. Grrrrrrr.
He's a vampire, too -- doesn't go to sleep until 2 and 3 in the morning, and then he will make up for it by sleeping all weekend, and I end up being a single parent the whole time. I've long given up asking him to come to bed with me; I snuggle with a teddy bear instead while watching a new channel, or History or Sci-Fi or something on the TV sleep timer for background noise. Is that pathetic or what, LOL? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I imagine I will be able to repeat the history of Pepper, or LeSalle's true burial locale, or the entire contents of the periodic table including state, color and classification soon, with all my uncouncious learning via the TV's timer. Well, I've always wanted to learn Gaelic.
Okay, I still haven't finished stuff here at work and now it's time 2 go home, so I'm just going 2 paste and edit this from our iloveulove dot com private 4um (sorry about the 2lessness):
Well, guess what the ****** just happened!?
A while ago, I got a call from my sister handling the finances from my dad's estate. Some more buckeroos are ready for distribution, and she wanted me to call their financial advisor to let him know what I wanted to do regarding setting up an account for myself - whether I wanted to use him or my own adviser locally.
I went to lunch to cogitate, and decide whether to discuss it with my W. In the end, I decided to talk about it with my W.
And we had the most open, honest "feeling" conversation we've ever had since we were giggly teenagers (even though I didn't meet her until I was 21).
She said that it really made her think when I told her that I didn't think that RM getting married changed anything, and SHE said that "no, he cheated on xMrs Meat nearly their entire marriage". He didn't learn anything from HIS experiences, so why would him getting married now make me feel "safer" in any way?
Which transitioned to subjects like conflict avoidance, exposure, and even confronting or suing RM for alienation of affection.
The point is that my problem isn't RM. It's my W. It's my relationship with my wife, and whether I want to continue to have one with her or no. This also came out of my W's mouth first.
There were a whole lot more things discussed, all "textbook", even ulove-related, actually.
The most important thing she said to me of all of it, though, was "I appreciated you being honest with me about how you felt." meaning about the news of RM's marriage plans. I told her how hard it has been for me to get beyond conflict avoidance, and let go with love, and how hard it is knowing that recovery will likely take a couple years once contact has truly stopped, and it's already been almost 4 years since d-day for me. And she said "I appreciate you've stuck by me through all this."
So, I think this is the start of true recovery, FINALLY! Whether we choose to stay together or divorce is not even on the radar screen right now. I really don't know what I want to do at this point. I'm happy that we've made this breakthrough, but I also feel a sense of "completeness" to our relationship - kind of like something SC had said a while ago about his marriage ending.
I truthfully don't think we'll divorce, but I'm not worried about it either. I'll keep open to what the "right thing" reveals itself, in due time, to be.
Yes JJ, that is long, in fact it is a weekend read. I started but seriously it's a Saturday morning read, and I do look forward to it this weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
2long,
Your perserverance and patience in all of this is a tribute to the man you are. Glad things are looking really good for you both.
For you and Mrs. 2long -
"But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.
Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself,
Love possesses not, nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love."
~Kahlil Gibran - The Prophet
Love is not for cowards 2long, and you are by far not a coward! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hey 2Long.... I'm really, really glad for you. Remember it's a hard road. Gotta look at the overall slope of the graph, not the immediate ups and downs.
Not that anyone's been counting, but yes2rday was just 5 days shy of 44 months since d-day.
I wouldn't have believed I'd be doing anything but drooling in a padded cell by now if you'd told me I'd still be at this for this long, but here I am... (I still drool from time 2 time, but I've done that most of my live, so it's probably unrelated).
Kimmy, this twinkie is trying to get H to look into some jobs I found for him in your area so we can move there or to Austin. It'd be so cool to have a friend like you do spend time with!
For those stb- or just plain- singles who may be interested, I found a funny article detailing the best and worst cities for dating. Their criteria was a little skewed but from what I've heard from single friends, its pretty darn accurate.
And re: the article (and Austin, TX being #1 for best places), I always did want to move to Austin, but not for the hotties, lol. There's just so much to do and see: comfortable summer temps for outdoor activities (that aren't in the 100s 40 days out of the year), arts & theatre, and that famous music!
As for you, 2Long, no need to even look at that article. Oh, how I am rejoicing with you!
I'm surprised Mpls. is a loser, though many people here do share a terrible trait - they can't make conversation.
Even heard Garrison Keillor joke about it a few weeks back on his show.
Today... planted some shrubs, finished taking shellac and mastic off my floors. Still a million things to do before the refi.
First night in recent history when I've been home and not working 'til midnight on this house. It really ought to be more impressive than it is by now. Coming along though.
Projects always look shabby to those who embark upon them....tis the nature of the beast. I'm sure to objective eye it looks fantastic. I hope you get to keep your house....retaining that piece of stability is important when the rest of your world has been torn apart. Even the folks in New Orleans want to return "home" to what is now a basement full of sewage and flotsam.
It has been crazy around here, work wise etc. I have missed you all.
I am glad to hear your news 2long. It sounds like you have gotten to a place where you can relate to one another as friends, rather than adversaries. A good place to start.
That is my hope for all of us.
Weaver, I love the Gibran passage.
Speaking of drooling, here is a look at the past 24 hours in my world:
At teh end of my rope, I asked H if he is still in contact with ow (yes) and told him that I can't just 'get over it'. That even when things are good between us I have constant triggers (this upset him)and told him that maybe we are way too messed up to recover and that he should just move to the city and live with ow; that we can be friends and he can help out with DD when he wants and I will call him only if I really need him , but that maybe we should just scrap it. ( we had been working on me and DD moving back to the house soon. Conditional on no contact with ow, and a bonfire for the furniture. )
I said that I also understand now that according to his rules, if we were not actually living together he considered himself free to be with other women...( I guess I didn't get the memo) and I implied that I guessed this rule works both ways.
(reverse babble thankyou Orchid)
(this was enforced by me letting him 'catch me' coming home from a mysterious place dressed up very sexy one night a week ago. He called here until 4 am, very nervous)
Whereupon he promtly stated that he wants to be married to me and that he is willing to work things out.
He drove over here bearing Kraft dinner ( my personal comfort food and the antidote for all the rich Austrian food I have been consuming lately) told me that he is sorry for ruining my life and hurting me, and spent the night holding me so tight I couldn't breathe.
The rest of my day was a blur - talking to a distraught guest this am who was driving to her 3 year old sons funeral ( anurysm); driving to town to pick up the food bank stuff and packing hampers; organising the motel as a clearing house for Katrina donations, cleaning rooms, and fending off a male guest who apparently was hoping that I was part of the room service...
I am glad to hear your news 2long. It sounds like you have gotten to a place where you can relate to one another as friends, rather than adversaries. A good place to start.
The best place to start I think.
Shul,
I think you should move back to your house if you want to live there, regardless of what WH does, if you can have a stable life there with your D. Along the lines of what Binder said, you need a home for yourself too. I realize that the motel can be a home for you if it feels like it to you, but it seems like you and especially DD needs a home of your own.
Thanks for the update, like Gray I was wondering how you were doing too.
Thinking of you, Shul. Hope he continues to get his head out of his [censored]. I agree with Weaver that you and DD need a home but you DON'T have to tolerate continued C. {{Shul}}
An okay gig. I got there very early and talked to the bartender a bit. Then a woman I know appeared unexpectedly, and we chatted until the rest of the band showed up.
We played pretty well, though it was a sloppy gig. Toward the end I broke a string and without a backup guitar on hand, I quick went to change the string. The bass player got the brilliant idea that they should play one of our songs while I worked, and just skip the singing so they could stop whenever.
God, what a train wreck. Apparently our singer only knows how her songs go if she's singing them. That's just pathetic and hack-like. I've told her a million times, you can't banter, so figure out something musical to do if I have to mess around for a minute, changing guitars or whatever. I've made suggestions, all ignored. I found a song for her to play that's about two minutes long, that would be easy to do and very pretty. She of course never bothered because playing music and learning songs is not her idea of fun. Makes you wonder why she's in a band, doesn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Most of us stayed 'til close (2:00). I went to McDonalds (!) on the way home. By then I'd been awake for over 40 hours, so my soul had long ago left my body, and just floated above it. Slept until noon yesterday.
Only in my wildest dreams.....you know, if I COULD sleep till noon, I don't think my inner clock would let me...no matter how much sleep I'd lost.
You're miffed at your singer....but it sounds like you have a pretty cool band....I wish ya'll would play Austin....I know a house you could hole up in for SxSW.
Kimmy, if we ever moved to Austin it would be waaaaaayy out in the boonies somewhere, hopefully with property for my pony. Golly, I've had enough of ridiculously high house payments for an old, crumbly house, just to live in a particular locale. I wouldn't particularly mind the drive into Austin for all those freebie activities.
....I wish ya'll would play Austin....I know a house you could hole up in for SxSW.
OOoooh, wouldn't that be incredible? There've been a lot of great bands "discovered" in Austin. Not to mention that all of the awesome jazz and blues Greats from New Orleans have purportedly relocated there . . .
My clock wouldn't let me sleep til noon either, Kimmy, no matter how tired I am. Pesky brain auto-alarm!
Well, YEAH! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . . . but I missed it last night -- just caught some of Ghost Hunters, instead. Why? Was it good?
Gotta love Chode! And is it true that Six is Carmen Electra???
By the way, Kimmy -- did you see The Man with the Screaming Brain? I have to check to see when it's coming on again -- I missed it, but it looked like it was so stupid it was funny!
Was wanting to ask you about Firefly. Love the line about killing first anyone trying to kill you on all the trailers. Is it worth getting sucked into??? (LOL)
Yeah, I knew it was Xena,' cause she had been on some other Sci-Fi show about mutant, flesh-eating, migrating locusts, or something, with the same blond hair. But darn, she is looking good! A little eye-candy for they boys, eh?
Oh, Kimmy, meant to ask --> do you watch any of the SG's? I finally relented and watched them all and am now throughly sucked into the oblivion once known as my Friday night. Yes, I can record some shows, but BSG is a MUST WATCH no matter what!
I have girlfriends that watch day after day and hour upon hour of A&E; red carpet, celebrity bios, celeb reality shows, who's wearing what. Too much swank for me.
Instead, I watch marathons on aliens and worm holes, malfunctioning FTL drives, the history of the Black Rhinoceros in the southwest African savanah, or forensic files.
I even have a spastic, paranoid six-inch goldfish fittingly-named Gaius (Baltar).
I watch all the SGs (meaning Stargate, right?). I love Atlantis - but I was very sad Rainbow (his name irl, don't remember his character name) is not on. Of course they left room for him to come back later as a big baddie.
I love Miami Ink and Inked. Can't live w/out Good Eats and Unwrapped....and I am a sucker for shows regarding ancient civilizations (hence my glazed eyes last week for history channels Rome and Romans week).
I've been off ADs again, and hope to stay off. I can't afford them anymore with my change in medical coverage, and more generally I don't want to rely on them any more.
Today is the first time since I stopped that I've caught a serious case of the blues.
It started when I remembered getting served.
Most of the time, when I think of all that happened, I hover safely in the place where I feel sad for my XWW, where I feel positive about my future, and where I'm happy with most of the choices I made during the whole last year + change.
Getting served.
It was pure horror. No warning. A sh*tty convertible, a scuzzy mullet-headed dude, and me a sitting duck. It showed, in stark relief, my WW's indifference to me. Wow, it hurt so bad.
And remembering these events is a slippery slope. The signs of her indifference abound in my memory, and when one breaks through, it brings its friends.
Rejected, and not in a hateful way, but with complete indifference, and by my own wife.
And all those reasons not to do it. Destroying two families, pulling the parents of a little girl apart, putting a pregnant woman and her unborn child in jeopardy.
And a voice hisses, All those reasons not to do it, and she did anyway. That's how unthinkable the option of being with you is. And even if some other fool girl wanders into your life, and even if she gives you a few years, eventually she's going to figure out how dreadful it is to be with you, and she's going to leave too. Maybe that'll teach you to fool yourself into thinking someone would want you.
I have good defenses against this kind of stuff. My instinct is to ignore it and see it for what it is. But it doesn't always work. Sometimes it's a little too much for those defenses. And there's so much supporting evidence!
Rejected by my own wife. Rejected by my own wife. Rejected by my own wife.
Blech.
A temporary condition, but not cool.
I think J might call these thoughts a manifestation of my "core hurts".
Never mind, I'll be fine. Just a speed bump. Music, that'll help. And Writin' it down kinda makes me feel better.
GC - I know you know this - but it is good for us to ponder this: our wives were abducted by aliens that wish to destroy the planet starting with the marriages.
Our wives still exist - somewhere. We may never see them again. But the creatures that thrust the daggers, from behind, through our hearts, and check in every week or so to twist the dagger to make sure the wound stays fresh - these are NOT our wives. The woman who betrayed you - the woman who betrayed me - she is not my wife. She is not your wife.
They are possesed creatures - with no heart - and I do not want or need it in my life. Maybe my wife will someday come home. Maybe, someday, your wife will break through the rubber and flesh suit that the alien inhabits, and smile at you and tell you - "I am so sorry. So sorry."
Or maybe our wives are dead - and the aliens have won one or two battles.
But that creature AIN'T YOUR WIFE!!!!!!!
Peace to you, brother.
I will pray a prayer of peace for you. For tomorrow. Let me know if you discern it.
Graycloud, Graycloud, Graycloud, One of these days.................
In the neighboorhood I grew up in, if I had ever said "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." The other boys would have said "Lets all beat him up, so he can get stronger."
I think you are about strong enough for a while. Take a cue from J, and expect it to happen when the timing is right. Have some faith it won't take forever. Where is that man that did so well in college? I want to see a post from him sometime in the next few weeks. See if you can persuade him to write to us.
2long, REPORT, you can't just tell us things are going better, and then quote songs. Even if they are good songs, you can't just do that.
Weaver, I can see you grow. I can see that the things you are reading are helping. It is so sweeeeeeet to see you understanding your possibilities. It will get better, and better as you go along.
AD, You are too quiet. Whats going on?
SLH, (Very Long pause) Oh SLH, you still hurt so much sometimes. You don't have faith things will be OK, and your hope is even having problems. I hear you about the long hours, and being gone.
Tell me about every day things. Tell me about the girls. How they are, where they are......and I don't mean "in the back yard playing." About your "boy" and how often you get to ride. What you are thinking about the next few months financially. Do you see improvement in any areas of your life, and if so what are they?
You asked me some questions, I can answer now if you desire. I have been underdeadline at work. (Hmmm, doesn't that sound fimiliar?) However, I have been meeting my W's needs, even If I have very little time for others.
I lay awake last night for a long time thinking about people here. I still think you have so much to hope for, so much to look forward to.
J, I didn't know it was HoFS. There is a good chance he is a better man than I. I followed his story for a long time on the thread that is no longer......... don't let him get away.
I have duct tape if you need it.
How are you now? I would expect your future looks brighter than it has for awhile.
And please, one favor. How is Penny? You can condense, but I would like to know. Not the normal polite company version, but how she? You would know.
Binder, I need to be careful, because I don't know everything, and I make mistakes..... but, it seems that something happened to you these last six months or so that really hurt, after you thought you had experianced the worst. Am I dreaming this?
I think of you often. I wonder about your home life, how it is from day to day. How the fishing was this summer. If you can laugh and mean it, or if it is hollow sometimes.
Thanks for the update, but I want more information. You are a good man, and sometimes you know it, but I want you to know all the time, and not doubt.
I am still thinking about Gray's doubt. I am thinking..... mountain bike......... the three fingers of death, and don't tell him about the drop off.
There are so many others that read, and sometimes comment. I hope today is a good day for you.
I think it's important 2 be careful not 2 expect 2 much at first. It's been a pretty anticlimactic few more days since our talk on the phone. Not much R or M stuff, just little observations, but the kind that show she's been thinking.
This morning it was her observation that she likes long vacations, and I like many little ones. I didn't even realize that, but it must be sorta true. I'm not sure what it means that she made that observation, but there it is. I think there was a little hurt behind it, so I need 2 explore that - she still seems 2 be jealous of the time I spend with my telescopes (which has literally only been one evening while she was gone since Labor Day, but I did just recently order some stuff and have been fretting over what to order). I also dabble on the internet perhaps 2 much, but I try 2 do that when I get up in the morning 2 make coffee, or a couple times when I couldn't sleep and let her get 2 sleep without me keeping the light on or staring at the ceiling.
I spend more time on hobby-related newsgroups than MB these days. Must be good news? I never do chat rooms (wouldn't really know how and don't want 2 learn) or IM (same thing? See? I don't know what I'm talking about, and I'm damn proud of it!).
But I do try 2 keep a watch on the time I spend so if she wants 2 talk or for me 2 spend time with her, I can be there.
I sent her one of the quotes from 'neak's thread about quotes. The one about courage and fear. She liked it. I'd like 2 send her SKM's Chronicles, but I'm not sure it's time yet.
SS, you're right. I'm tough enough. From my past experience, I know that when I go off ADs I'm okay for a few weeks, and then suddenly not so much. This time I'm gonna suck it up.
My next door neighbor spotted me through the window standing on the floor sander and riding around. She thinks I'm a mental patient. What can I say? The Stones made me do it (thanks Kiwi).
So you see, I'm not so miserable.
Yep, sanding my floors (again) today. Wow, so tired. Been at it for five hours. Gotta go until I drop, then sleep, and get up, and do some more. Time is money.
Restoring a house all alone is like plan A. Only once. The bungalow purists in my city would be pleased.
All these crappy infidelity stories have something in common.
The OP commonly seems to have some major problems, usually acknowledged by the WS. The OP can't hold down a job, the OP is a sniveling wimp, the OP doesn't know how to care for her children, the OP is in trouble with the cops, the OP is broke, the OP is a materialistic freakazoid.
It's so common that it makes me wonder about infidelity, how much it is about the WS "finding her level".
I've never seen a story where the OP is anyone you'd be all that impressed with. And I mean aside from the obvious part where her ethics can be put on hold so she can get what she wants.
When I was a deck carpenter building yaughts just after we got M'd, during lunch we used 2 get 2 belt sanders and a 50-foot "Y" extension chord and have belt sander races. Great sport!
"Time is money" reminds me of a Peter Gabriel song... (SS, I GET 2 sing!):
"A Wonderful Day In A One Way World"
"Saturday is shopping day... ...I drive my car but there's no place to park it, No respect for Superman in supermarket. Guess there must be trouble but I've not been alerted; Looking 'round the store, it was all deserted And I'm stranded here with my empty basket, So full of question, but nowhere to ask it.
Chorus:
By the one way out, strange voice shout, "Don't let that good man out!" "Have a wonderful day in our one-way world, One way, one day; Have a wonderful day in our one-way world, One way, one day; One-way man, one-way mind, get along with mankind."
There's an old man on the floor so I summon my charm, I say, "Hey stormband, has there been an alarm?" He says "Here, there sellin' out eternal youth. They all got afraid, 'cos I'm the living proof. My name is Einstein, do you know time is a curve?" I said, "Stop, old man! You've got a nerve! 'cos there's only one rule that I observe: Time is money, and money I serve!"
I am so glad you are here tonight. I just logged on because my DD (who is home for weekend) went to a hotel to swim with a little friend and his mom, and I see you posting.
I am growing SS, and in the direction I want to go in but tonight it's like I got hit with these huge waves of memories of past hurts by Dan. And I try to remember that he was hurting, and the hurts against me were just part of this journey of growth he is on and were not intentional.
And I try to find some proof that my love, and dreams of our families together were not in vain, and not a joke. And that the joke was not on me.
I prayed a long time tonight, for peace in my heart, and for God to lift me in his arms and tell me why all this stuff has been apart of my life. The losses seem so unfair sometimes.
I hear the ferry horn every half hour all night long, and sometimes I can "not hear it", but sometimes like tonight that ferry horn resounds in my soul like a knife, a reminder of pain forgotten, but not forgotten.
I don't want it to just be buried, I want it to be gone like it never was.
We create our own world, everything manifested in our life is created by us, in our minds. I know this and believe this with all my heart.
So why then do some of us manifest such pain?
For what purpose? To grow? To pay for past transgressions?
Thanks SS, like Gray I feel a little better just writing all this gibberish down here.
weaver, just the fool on the hill.
2long, things take time! Enjoy the moments and don't try to "read" them. In the immortal words of Aerosmith, "life is a journey, not a destination", as is love, the lifelong kind.
But I am so happy you are trying to really "hear" her, in the things she is saying to you which you now feel might have hurt her like the long trips she wanted and your telescope hobby. Yeah 2long!
It was a weird week at work this week. It seems that every where I turned someone was telling me that they had left their wife, or vice versa.
One of the inpectors wife left to have an affair, then came back and now she is pregnant with OM's baby. He has now gone on leave, so no one knows how he is.
And it just went on and on.
It's like we are living some some horrible, twisted, nightmare soap opera.
So how are you? I'd laugh but can't find any humour tonight. Maybe you can?????
Hi Weaver, I know we all feel like that sometimes. You can see from what Gray writes that he sometimes does.
I think the pain can be good for us........ in the end.
You have heard the quote "no pain, no gain."
It's how we learn.
I probably shouldn't tell this story, but I think I will.
I had a son that was so interrested in flame. He wanted to touch the burner on the gas range and we found him more than once climbing onto a chair that he pushed next to the stove.
I was worried about him learning to turn it on - thus far he had only tried it when we had something cooking, and we were almost always in the room but for going to the rest room, and short trips like that.
One evening I put a pot of water on to boil to make macroni and cheese. I left for a minute, and when I came back he was pushing the chair to the stove. I determined to let him touch the flame so that ( I hoped he would learn that it was painful but that I could intervene before he could really get hurt.) His fingers hovered near the flame, and finally he got the courage and plunged them in.
I grabbed him about the time he pulled his hand back. His little fingers were red, but not very bad at all. He cried a little bit, but he never again stuck his hand near the flame, and he never again pushed the chair near the stove. I permitted him to feel the flame to prevent possible future hurt that might have been much worse.
I have endured enough pain myself to know I don't like it. I am more cautious, but I still try new things.
God doesn't cause our pain, but he can turn it to good. I don't think he wants us to feel it at all, I am sure of it, but it is a by product of the world we live in.
This is the refiners fire, and we are being refined. I don't mean to make your feelings common, they are not. However, you are learning, and you are a better person now than even a year ago. You know you are.
We learn how to prevent being burned. I don't draw a direct correlation between what happened to you, and what happened to my son, but perhaps this pain will prevent some future pain for you. Perhaps you will be more careful, or perhaps it will even help your DD who may learn from the things you teach her. I don't know, but it CAN be turned to good.
I know sometimes God weeps when we do, because he knows how we feel, and he hurts that we hurt. Can you feel that sometimes?
I also know he can heal our hurt, and will over time as we get closer to him. I hope you can feel that too.
I speak of healing hurts from personal experiance. Time helps.
I have a friend by the name of Cathy. She is looking for some of the same things you are looking for. I think both of you will find peace. May it come soon.
SS, yes in some ways weekends are worse and in some ways better. WH got me ticked off this evening but I think I was looking for an excuse. I sick, sick, sick of his A and all the crap that goes with it. Every day is extremely painful but then every day of my life is painful anyway. I went to a conference last weekend to meet up with my on line support group for my son's illness. I was so sad leaving these people because I knew my weekend of feeling "normal" was coming to an end. I would once again be different in this world. Hope that makes sense.
I guess I am a bit introspective too. I just chewed out the mom of my DD12's friend for leaving her alone at night. We have loved and cared for this child for years. She even lived with us for two weeks while her mom was in jail. I finally had it and told her mom that this child has to come first in her life. I told her to be the adult before it is too late for the girl. She is 13 and already getting into trouble.
.......I knew my weekend of feeling "normal" was coming to an end. I would once again be different in this world. Hope that makes sense.
Yes, it makes sense. But I don't know if I agree with you being different. Feeling different maybe.
Do you realize that you are not normal on MB. You are above average. How many of us in the world can experiance such pain, but still look out for the welfare of others, and give them help and support?
Take comfort in how you are reacting. It shows how far YOU have come. If you come out with the occasional LB, well, do better tomorrow.
Sleep well, get some rest. Tomorrow will be here soon enough.
Kiwi - that's not so bad. "Torn and Frayed" would have worked also. But in the movie version, "Tumblin' Dice" will be playing.
SS, I played music, though in those days it was very private. I didn't play in front of others very often. I remember once, I was home alone playing some music. A guy I was hanging around with at the time busted in on me while I was singing. He tortured me as if he'd caught me doing something far more unsavory than singing a folk song.
SS, guess it's a little vague, isn't it? What's "tougness" anyway? It's easy for people to hurt my feelings, which doesn't seem so tough, does it? But I sanded and thought about it a while. I'm sticking with my original response.
Weaver... you work harder than I do to pardon the one who hurt you.
I've taken myself apart and put myself back together 500 times in the last 17 months. These days, I don't feel I have to give my transgressor any slack. It's not my job. The best way for me to view her is with defiance.
She told me I'm worthless, and it's a lie. That's my defiance.
Hardwood floors are... hard. Mine are only 80 years old, but they seem almost petrified.
He tortured me as if he'd caught me doing something far more unsavory than singing a folk song.
I think that is called immaturity - I see it still in so many. Some days in myself - though I hate to admit it. Mine is not on that level - not so low.
You care about people, you are kind. Maybe that's one of the reasons this is still with you. You would never do what was done to you, and would fight to keep it from happening to someone else. It's worth fighting for.
Your mind (still) has a hard time accepting that anyone could do it, especially someone you loved, and were close to. I wonder if you (deep inside) are suffering from feeligs of "How could I love someone that could stoop this low, how could I have had such poor judgement." That could be more in your heart than "How could she do this to me, am I that bad, do I mean so little."
I wonder - knowing a little about you if that is the more part of it. Think on it. Give credit where credit is due.
I've taken myself apart and put myself back together 500 times in the last 17 months.
One of these days when you put yourself back together, use Loctite #270.
SS, thanks for the boost. I needed it. My hurt just exploded on me last night. I don't know why but likely has been building since DDs C session on Tuesday. Plus my WH's tactical avoidance is just too much for me to handle when all I require at this juncture is honesty. What the heck does he have to lose by finally telling me the whole darn truth? Let me hear it all so I can grieve and move on. For some reason since I don't really know the whole story I seem to be stuck in the spinning cycle. Reminds of the poster with the screen name Spinning the Drain. Somedays that is me. So I cried, I LB'd and I almost lost my sanity last night only for him to hold me and comfort me the rest of the night. Insanity at its best/worst.
FF, I've read a few of those "affair" books. Seems to me the business of revealing the whole truth (I think Shirley Glass calls it "the story of the affair" but I gave away my copy of NJF) happens a ways into recovery, and even then the WP has to get over some big hurdles before he can do it.
I'll never know the whole story of sparrow's affair. Ob-la-di, ob-la-da.
The OP commonly seems to have some major problems, usually acknowledged by the WS. The OP can't hold down a job, the OP is a sniveling wimp, the OP doesn't know how to care for her children, the OP is in trouble with the cops, the OP is broke, the OP is a materialistic freakazoid.
GC, I was the OP. More than once. I wasn’t any of those things, except possibly a freakazoid. I was simply a fool. I hope, every single day, that I’ve learned better. So far, I think I have. It’s hard to know for sure, though. Because I have only been tested once, so far. I’ll need more evidence before I’m sure.
I didn't know it was HoFS.
I know. I wanted you to know. I hope no one else minds knowing. I thought you’d think it was okay. I love him. It’s… nice beyond words to be able to say it. Nice, beyond words as well, to have come to this from an ethical place. It wasn’t easy. And for many months, I thought he was gone from my life forever.
There is a good chance he is a better man than I.
I think that comparing the goodness of these two men is perhaps unnecessary. It seems to me that you’re learning similar things in your lives. And that you both have learned a lot about inner strength. I’m honored to know you both.
I followed his story for a long time on the thread that is no longer......... don't let him get away.
It’s a love to fight for, SS. And I’ll fight for it. Yeah, maybe I’ll borrow that duct tape from you sometime. Except that I think he maybe will have to use it on me sometimes. I’m, err. Challenging. So he says. So many people say.
How are you now? I would expect your future looks brighter than it has for awhile.
I feel right, SS. I feel … I don’t know how to say it. The future looks like a lot of work, really. It’s not easy, loving a man who lives far away. There are many obstacles that I don’t know how to overcome. There are things that I want to say and it’s too early to say them. There are things I want that he doesn’t want, or is afraid of. And vice versa, probably. I want to find ways through all of them. In fact, what I want them all to disintegrate so that I can just spend a year or twenty basking in how I feel right now. That, too, I know isn’t realistic. But it’s hard to avoid when you’re in love.
And please, one favor. How is Penny? You can condense, but I would like to know. Not the normal polite company version, but how she? You would know.
I do know, SS, and yet it’s not my story to tell. Some good, some hard, some… just life. Why don’t you ask her? Send her e-mail. She would answer you, I think.
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha,Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha,
You really got a laugh out of me that time. I can see it in my minds eye.
I used to work construction in another life - I can see it, feel it, taste it and smell it. Now you have me spitting trying to get it out of my mouth.
You are tough Gray, You are. However, even tough guys have bad days. We're here for those. When the fire burns low tonight, I'll be there sittin by ya.
for many months, I thought he was gone from my life forever.
I still don't know the whole story, the meeting, and so on. Someday.....?
There is a good chance he is a better man than I.
I think that comparing the goodness of these two men is perhaps unnecessary. It seems to me that you’re learning similar things in your lives. And that you both have learned a lot about inner strength. I’m honored to know you both.
I hear you, and I think you already know...... I said that to let you know my opinion of HIM. I wanted you to understand how much I think of him.
(On duct tape) I’m, err. Challenging. So he says. So many people say.
Oh, I agree, you are/have been/will be. I agree, but I see that as a good thing, not a bad one. In most ways.
I feel right, SS. I feel … I don’t know how to say it. The future looks like a lot of work, really. It’s not easy, loving a man who lives far away. There are many obstacles that I don’t know how to overcome. There are things that I want to say and it’s too early to say them. There are things I want that he doesn’t want, or is afraid of. And vice versa, probably. I want to find ways through all of them. In fact, what I want them all to disintegrate so that I can just spend a year or twenty basking in how I feel right now. That, too, I know isn’t realistic. But it’s hard to avoid when you’re in love.
Feelings like this can be used for good, or they can produce harm. You know that already. I almost talked along these lines in my last post, but - for one, I didn't have the time, and second, I can't be of much help. There is a lot to work out, and it will be work. Lots of trade offs. Lots.
Before you get too far, you need to decide what you want from your life. Once you know, it won't be hard to make the decisions.
I live in a small town, I will never make much money, and I have all the restrictions that go with those choices. I do have a family, a W that loves me, and children that love family gatherings more than almost anything. We love each other, and it shows.
That's what I wanted, it's what I have worked for, and it's my joy and happiness. I know what I have, and I am thankful. I don't long for another lifestyle, or wish I could have things I don't have. I count my blessings, not my failures.
I can't imagine the thoughts you must have, as you think of the decisions you must make. Though we care, we can't help much with this part of it.
I continue to pray for your happiness. I want you to have what I have, and feel what I feel. It really is as good as you think it can be.
Of course, there are always bad days. We have ours too. But the good days.......ahhh, the good days.
Yes, I want you to be happy.
I am still almost afraid to visit symc. I know many there, and love them. I would want to write, and If I spent time, I would break promises already made.
Give my love to Penny, and tell her I still pray for her. For the best possible outcome - and I added one. That she will have the strength, ability, and energy to do all that she needs to do.
Perhaps I will write her, but I hate to ask questions of her when her time is so valueable, and her help needed by so many.
Thanks to you (You, and HoFS) for that excnange you wrote. It confirmed a lot of my thoughts about you - both.
I will never make much money, and I have all the restrictions that go with those choices. I do have a family, a W that loves me, and children that love family gatherings more than almost anything. We love each other, and it shows.
That is all I ever wanted too. Not drama, not riches but someone who loves me for me and loves family. A simple, happy, peaceful existance.
Read your illustration of learning through pain when your son stuck his hand in the gas range flame. I have learned many a lesson too these last two years but it has not soured me on the opposite sex…..the error was in technique and execution, not the concept or the act. More on that later in the post.
I just installed a gas range in my kitchen. I bought it from a friend who had barely used it and moved. I ran the gas lines to the kitchen, changed the 220 volt outlet to 110, and junked my worn out electric range. I love cooking over a fire…it grounds me. It’s better at the cabin over a wood fire, but this refined sanitized version will have to do in the city. I often think I should have lived around 200 years ago…..maybe been one of David Thompson’s men as he mapped this part of the country. I dream about that sort of life right up until the time I think about going to a dentist.....then 2005 starts to look pretty good!
So SS…..am I in greater pain?…has something happened in the last 6 mos. that has had a profound effect on me? Hmmmmm. I’ve given up on my marriage…and I’m OK with that. If my STBX showed up on my doorstep pleading to come back home I’d be gentle, offer her some empathy, get her a Kleenex and bring her a comfortable seat. I’d then tell her to clean up the tissues when she’s done and to go back to her residence and refrain from contacting me again cuz the door is closed. I’m not “strong” enough to get past what she’s done for 2 years. The time she sat in our kitchen and alluded to how sexually uninhibited she feels with the OM still resonates in my grey matter. I’m done.
I’m disappointed in myself somewhat too SS. I wanted to walk away from this marriage following a map that I had made; one that included a completely pure strategy that I could follow and tell my children of as we walk through our lives. I needed a plan to follow and I needed to see myself follow it with discipline…not cut corners and rationalize my shortcomings. I can’t say I’ve been disciplined. I don’t think God is pleased.
Upon filing for divorce I’ve permitted myself to have relationships with women. A dinner here, a coffee there…..but no singing Oh! Oh! Oh! Canada with them. I know it does not fit with a “pure” strategy and I will not demean myself by rationalizing my decision. Back in July I received an email from a woman that works at the same agency I do. We had worked together one day on a project earlier that month. She asked me out. She seems to think I am all of that and a bag of chips. I can barely beat her off with her white cane. She’s 37, attractive, a runner, no kids…….looks pretty good on paper and in a tight fitting skirt.
I have continued to see her about once a week. I’d be out with her now if I’d been able to get a sitter. I told her one night that I’m still married and thus will not be putting the “Man” in Manitoba with her. She had a look on her face that people get when trying to solve the Rubik’s Cube. It seems that has only fueled whatever motivation she has to spend time with me.
I thought I’d be divorced by now…I’m not. I am curious to see what lay ahead. I’m also terrified of entering into some sort of rebound relationship that usually ends up in disaster. I don’t want to be married anymore, I don’t want to be involved in an exclusive relationship, I don’t want to be alone every night either. I don’t want to be ashamed of how I live my life. I don’t want my kids to have a skewed view of marriage and family. I don’t want my relationship with God to be conveniently placed on the back burner while I concentrate on my secular life.
That’s pretty much about it SS…..I didn’t get out fishing near enough this summer and the leaves are already starting to turn and fall in these parts. The powers that be at the agency I work for seem intent on giving me meaningful work while still enabling me to keep my schedule to accommodate my parenting responsibilities. I’m choosing to be happy, but need some down time….to think…to learn….to understand and make sense of what I’ve been through, and to plot my course. I also need to understand that my plans still mean little to God, you’d think that lesson should be drilled into my head by now.
I truly wish that we could sit around a real campfire. I’d like to hear the exchange. Actually hear those probing questions with the appropriate inflection and attempt to digest the articulate and revealing answers. I’ve learned much here, but I’m beginning to sense my desire to stop focusing on what I’ve been through, to release the obsession. That's likely the biggest reason why I don’t spend as much time here. Though I could never imagine this day back in the early part of 2004…………I now know I’m going to be OK.
Binder, Yes, I was drawing you out on purpose. I hope you will forgive me that, but I worried about you. Not that you will fail, but for the hurt you feel as this goes along. It would be hard for anyone to endure.
I want to respond, I hope you don't mind. I am leaving town for 5 days this week, and I am not sure if I can respond in detail before I leave.
I can assure you that God knows who you are, and cares what happens to you. I know you know, but it doesn't hurt to hear it again.
Maybe when I come back we can talk about - if God was to come for a personal visit, what would he say?
It's getting cooler here too, I think we may have frost before Dec 1st this year.
Binder, I think I understand exactly what you are saying. I know that girls suffer when they are left, but I think that guys have a harder time for some reason. It seems guys have a harder time resolving their feelings, and also are not very good at being without a women in their life. Atleast the deep feeling ones like you and Gray.
I want to be alone, and yet not alone. I want a good friend to fall through the ceiling, with none of the baggage. Something that just is, and not something I have to think about, or worry about, or work for.
I think I'll be alone for a long, long time, but that brings me a certain amount of peace in some strange way.
JJ, I am very, very happy that you are having these feelings again. I have followed your story from the beginning because of your little girl I think. As I am a single mom and once faced the possibility of losing her. And your story gives hope to those of us who sometimes worry will never feel what we once felt again.
SS,
I so understand what you are saying about choices, and not getting burned again. However, I honestly believe that I chose just the person I needed to choose, so I could grow and so I could face the things in me which I needed to face. So I could finally resolve and heal from my past.
Yes, I believe he was Gods choice for me, because I needed to learn some things. And I needed to love someone who was not worthy really (because of his own past demons).
It is all part of the plan, and all part of the lessons I am learning.
I chose exactly what I needed to choose to get where I am now and where I eventually will be.
And I don't really think I had that much "choice" in the matter, for the reasons I stated above.
The most amazing thing just happened, I got my answer!
I know you said in your post to Binder that you have a trip planned, so please don't feel the need to respond to me either. Just a yes will do, if you think I really do "got" it.
I was reading "Captivating" by Stasi & John Eldgridge this afternoon and came upon this paragraph which hit me like a ton of bricks.
You see I already figured out why Dan came into my life when and how he did, but I hadn't gotten an answer to why he left when and how he did.
Now I do! The paragraph from the book -
" And so you will see the gentle, firm hand of God in a woman's life hemming her in. He'll make what was once a great job miserable, if it was in her career that she found shelter. He'll bring hardship into her marriage, even to the breaking point, if it was in marriage she sought her salvation. Where ever it is we have sought life apart from him, he disrupts our plans, our "way of life" which is not life at all."
I was very obsessed when I was with Dan, to the point where he was my whole life, and I was slipping miserably away from friends, family and God. I loved him but it was not healthy for me or for him, or for anyone else.
Now I know what I need to do SS. I have my answer. And you were right all along, the answer is that I need to find my way home to God. That is where my future lies. He didn't forsake me and take away what I loved. He separated me from that which was not of him, so I could find my way home.
I believe it is - He wants you back, and works for that always.
I won't leave until Tues early afternoon. Maybe I can get in one or two more posts.
Weaver, God loves you, and knows what is best. Now when bad things happen to me, I ask "what do you want me to do, and how can we make the best of this?"
I used to wonder why such a terrible thing happened, and wish for the way things were before it happened.
Yes, I think that is the reason. You should feel a lot more peace now - though some feelings will linger and take a while to heal.
Finding our way home is often difficult, but it is worth it.
2Long: Yeah. It was HoFS. And yeah… it’s really cool. I suspect there are many who are cheering for him. He’s had a long road. Longer than mine, and mine was plenty long enough.
for many months, I thought he was gone from my life forever.
I still don't know the whole story, the meeting, and so on. Someday.....?
I wrote about it, here on this thread, after SLH asked. I wasn’t using names yet then, so it was difficult to follow. He and I met at Penny’s second degree initiation party in January 2004. He picked me up at the airport. Before that, because I needed to know which strange man was safe to ride in a car with (though in Minneapolis, you’re safer than in many other places), he sent me a picture of himself. Just an average, slightly stiff family portrait. Him and three boys of various ages.
It hit me, that picture. I looked at it and every single one of my normal defenses against attractive men got caved in. An arrow? Yes, very much an arrow.
I was still utterly devoted to my ex then. I very nearly didn’t go to Penny’s party because of how that picture hit me. But it was Penny. How could I not?
There were many months of very, very careful maintaining of boundaries after that. I thought it would wear off, you know? But it didn’t. I finally told Penny that I could not be in the same physical space with him anymore, the last-ditch effort to avoid the worst fate I can currently imagine – participating in another affair.
So I didn’t see him from… hmmm. July through November of 2004. He started dating someone in late July, I think. His divorce had been final in January. In October, a few weeks before I saw him, my ex got engaged and I was finally free.
That November kiss I know I wrote about on this thread. It is not a cliché. Sometimes your knees really do give out when a kiss is a particular kind. I already knew that then. I knew it doubly afterwards. I wanted to keep kissing him. For a long, long time.
But… because of the way things were and the decisions he made, we agreed to NC. He wanted to explore his relationship. If I had contact with him, I was going to always want more. A lot more. So I let him go. It was hard. I loved him already. Love does not always grow where it should, you know. Sometimes it’s a weed growing up in the cracks of the sidewalk where it doesn’t belong. So I worked on rooting it out.
I give Penny a lot of credit. She heard, as far as I know, both sides of the whole thing. She counseled both of us to a path of ethical and compassionate behavior. It was really, really hard. It was also the honorable path, and I’m glad I took it.
So I went on about my dating, one date leading to another, eventually meeting the woman that I dated for five months. I thought HoFS was gone from my life completely, though there were occasional reminders. Some of them made me miss him all over again. I stuck, steadfastly, to my refusal to give in to those feelings, and worked to make NC that much more complete.
In July, the woman I’d been dating and I decided to go our separate ways. We were not on the same path, and didn’t want to be. It was an amiable breakup. A few tears, but really? We weren’t right for each other and we knew it. A week later, unknown to me, HoFS’ girlfriend broke up with him. Because of differences in their life paths that had become all too apparent, as well. Painful for him – very much so.
In late August, I found out about it. Not from Penny, but from a reference someone else gave me. A cryptic reference the other person didn’t understand, but I did. I’d already known about it before then. His … energy, his presence, was back in my life. In a way it had not been for many months. I kept… tripping over it.
Finally Penny and I talked about it. I asked her point-blank whether he’d broken up with his girlfriend. Her pause was just a little too long, and confirmed what I knew. She was relieved not to have been the one to spill the beans, I think. I ranted about him. His energy was… so warm.
Warm. Yes, very warm. Incredibly comfortable and peaceful. But… It hurt, too. Because I thought that he wasn’t interested in me. Some of his reasons for not being involved with me had to do with the obstacles between us. Six hours away. I wanted more kids, he didn’t. Four kids that already depend on one or the other to be a rational grownup. Situations with our ex-spouses that were anything but easy.
In the midst of a rant about him, Penny gently asked me if I wanted to see him. It stopped me cold. I had to really look at what I was feeling. Yes. Yes, I really very, very much wanted to see him. I missed him terribly.
Penny, dear soul that she is, was finally able to say “you know, there’s no reason -not- to call him anymore.” It was a little difficult, I think, to get us to actually speak to each other. Months of training had erected some pretty high walls. HoFS said it was like being an East German in 1989. After all those years, to be told there was no more need for that Wall? You don’t feel free. You feel scared out of your mind. What do you do when the boundaries aren’t there anymore?
I know I wrote about the walk in Penny’s labyrinth, and the phone ringing. The fear, the anxiety. Letting go of anything like the boundaries that I’d had before.
That was him calling. All the rest that I wrote about, that was him, too. It’s here, more or less, floating around. Either here or on my SYMC thread or on his. There are a few things that aren’t posted there, but the general broad outlines are there. There’s more to the story. We both keep remembering bits. If you keep asking, I’ll keep telling details. I’m like that. And it’s a story that I treasure.
Before you get too far, you need to decide what you want from your life. Once you know, it won't be hard to make the decisions.
I know what I want from my life. I have no idea how to create the image that I have in my head in real life. I don’t even know how to get all of the involved people into one place. But I know what I want and I have this feeling that if I’m open to it, it may very well happen.
It involves a whole lot of prosperity and abundance. The kind that you have – family, love, friends, land, laughter. And also the kind that you don’t have so much of, the kind that involves having financial planners on staff full time to keep track of where all the money is stashed. And there is more. Much, much more. Many tradeoffs, as you said. Some simple. Some extraordinarily complex and difficult and heartwrenching. I want to find a way. I want to talk about it with him. I find myself tongue-tied. Surely this should wait until after the second date? Surely.
It really is as good as you think it can be.
I know, Still Seeking. I know. At a bone-deep level. I know.
I would want to write, and If I spent time, I would break promises already made.
I think you and I talked about those promises once. In fact, I just went and found the e-mail where you talked about them. I understand. The invitation is still open. Always, in fact. I feel as though you are meant to be one of us. I’ll wait until you’re able to do so in good conscience. I seem… to have a certain amount of practice at that, these days.
Perhaps I will write her, but I hate to ask questions of her when her time is so valueable, and her help needed by so many.
You know, SS, there’s a flaw in that reasoning. You wouldn’t be writing to Penny to ask for her help. You would be writing as a friend, asking how she’s doing. Making that connection. It’s something that you do as naturally as breathing, my friend. I hope you eventually follow that vocation. It seems to call you. But whether you do or not, it seems to me that thinking you’re taking time away from her when in fact you would be providing her with the support of a friend who truly cares? It’s not the same, and you know it.
Thanks to you (You, and HoFS) for that excnange you wrote. It confirmed a lot of my thoughts about you - both.
You’re welcome. It was hard to decide to write it. It exposes a lot of both of us. At the same time, though, it seemed to me that there are very few people who have the capacity to write something like that, and to do it honestly and openly. A case study, I called it, when I was being a little less poetic. This is what happens when compassion is misplaced and then found again. Important to know what it looks like, even in the midst of something that seems minor, when you consider all the pain in this world. Maybe it’s easier to see why it’s so important when you look at it like that.
Binder, I read what you wrote with a heavy heart. Not the part about the gas stove. I’m glad about that part. Some of the rest of it, though, seems like you’re weary. Like maybe you’d be okay with laying some of the burden down, letting someone else carry it for a while. And I wish we could all sit around a real campfire too. I wonder how we could make that happen someday.
GC, are you having the party at your house someday? Is that the most central place?
Weaver, I didn’t realize you’d followed my story for so long. Then I looked at your registration date and I realized that you probably never saw the very first two threads I posted. I had them removed a long time ago. I have copies, but I don’t think anyone else does. They’d probably embarrass me if I looked at them now. I read through my long thread here not too long ago and just cringed. What a hash I made of my marriage at the end. I knew I was doing it – I was focused on saving my relationship with DD – and yet I still wince when I read through it. It took me a long time to become grounded and stable again. It seems like we should focus on that first when we work with people. It’s so very hard to get people to do it, though.
Anyway. I’m glad you’ve followed my story, and I’m glad it’s given you some hope. There are parts of it that give me hope, too.
Well I’m up making some Rice Krispie squares for my daughter’s play school class tomorrow. They’re having a little birthday party for her as she recently turned 4. Get to use my almost new gas range……not exactly thrilling, but I genuinely like to cook, even something as pedestrian as Rice Krispie squares. By the way SLH, I took a look at the eastern sky to see the full moon…….brilliant. We already occasionally get the northern lights now so I’ll be watching for them too. The outdoors….God’s greatest temple.
SS…..don’t apologize for the inquiry……I need to think this through sooner or later and I likely have been focusing on my path or “goal” without tending to my “wounds”. I have to digest my life and decisions sooner or later and likely I’ve been staring ahead and forgetting about my gauges…….or more appropriately, flashing idiot lights.
Weaver, I’ve heard that too….. that guys take longer to fall in love and longer to fall out of love. Maybe there’s an evolutionary/natural selection component to that. Who knows…..I ain’t no anthropologist……..I’m more of an Australopithecus.
I am OK alone however. I’ve always been a bit of a loner at heart. STBX is extremely gregarious. She once logged over 800 min. of long distance calls one month. Keep in mind that those are only outgoing calls and does not capture the local calls or the incoming long distance calls. She need to stay connected, I need to disconnect. Likely had something to do with the motivation behind her bad choice. Couldn’t get through to the iceman. ~~sigh~~
JustJ…….happy to hear about your blossoming romance. You have one of the most interesting stories I’ve read. I wish I could have such an eclectic group of individuals to associate with her in my town. What I could learn! I know how I tend to pick my friends. Usually I have an affinity and surround myself with people that have certain desirable traits I lack. I tend to draw towards these people and attempt to mimic them to some degree as If I could mold my character through osmosis. It appears this is what draws me here to the campfire.
I didn’t realize it until you made the observation, but I think you’re right….I’m weary. I’m tired of the marriage now, tired of working 40+ hours a week and working harder once I’m off to raise my children. I’m tired of people’s indifference, I’m tired of trying to maintain this aging house and finish my cabin. I don’t run my life right now it runs me. I think I’ll have me a good old fashioned mid life crisis! Actually…..no. I will maintain my responsibilities. I just need a better time management system.
As an aside, a coworker was telling me about his SIL who works at our agency that is having an affair with her manager. I tried to give him the benefit of my experience and directed him to tell the BS about this site. I have no idea if he took the advice or not.
Anyways this same coworker is a fellow in his 30’s, has two beautiful sons and a gorgeous wife. He also has the benefit of her families’ wealth and lives in a huge shack in the burbs. I have the benefit of the agencies hand held computer that used to be assigned to him as I likely will be moving into that branch of the agency. (you know where this is going don’t you) He failed to delete the Emails in the deleted folder. Yup. He’s professing his love to another women in the agency and she to him. The pandemic continues.
Anyways this same coworker is a fellow in his 30’s, has two beautiful sons and a gorgeous wife. He also has the benefit of her families’ wealth and lives in a huge shack in the burbs. I have the benefit of the agencies hand held computer that used to be assigned to him as I likely will be moving into that branch of the agency. (you know where this is going don’t you) He failed to delete the Emails in the deleted folder. Yup. He’s professing his love to another women in the agency and she to him. The pandemic continues.
Sounds like entitlement more than EN's in his case. Ughh.. Have you thought of sending the emails to his BS?
FF.....you have no idea what sort of repercussions that would have for me......no idea. It would be obvious where it came from and I would be persona non grata in so many places where I work. I couldn’t get far enough away from that nuclear device. I must find a different approach
I wonder if you could annonymously let her know without implicating yourself. I certainly understand you professional worries though. Sigh..such a bad world isn't it?
J, if my house is presentable, I'll have the party.
Right now there's no finish on the floors. Every drop of water leaves a mark. It's hard to live in a house where drops of water on the floor are forbidden.
And of course it's going to rain all week. Descending half tones: wah, wah, wah, waaaaaaaaaaah.
So I spent Friday, Saturday, and today sanding my floors. Late this afternoon I went for a ride around the lakes. A mile from home, I hit a gravel patch and blew a tire. I don't carry gear on little rides like this, so... the ride was cut short.
I've been this tired only a handful of times, ever. But I need to write about the Classic Rock Ghost. I don't know if I've brought him up before.
Just to set things up...
Here are some of the things you find low on the dial here in Mpls.:
89.3: public radio, popular music 89.9: R&B 90.3: listener-supported eclectic music and left-leaning news 91.1: NPR news & info 91.4: Christian hits 92.5: classic rock 93.7: active rock (e.g., Metallica)
I keep my wakeup alarm clock dialed to 91.1. It's an analog tuner, and the dial is on the side, toward the back.
I have not touched this dial in many months.
The clock sits on a never-used desk in my bedroom, probably ten feet from my bed.
A few months ago, the radio started to occasionally tune in 92.5 in the morning. I thought this was a little strange, especially because it was tuned in very clearly. And one day it would be on 92.5, another day it would be on 91.1. One of my friends said I've got a ghost who likes classic rock.
The NPR/classic rock tossup went on for a while. Then one morning the Christian hits station was dialed in. Odd, but less surprising, since 91.1 and 91.4 are so close together, right?
Okay, fast forward. Last night, at 2 A.M., I finally quit working on my floors and headed to bed.
I was very tired, but also needed to cut my sleep a little short so I could get up early and finish my sanding. I set the alarm and turned the volume up loud, then thought to myself, maybe I should put the active rock station on. But I didn't touch the dial. I decided at the beginning of all this that I was going to leave this dial alone. I might have said to myself, out loud, "I should set it to 93X."
This morning, 93X was blaring on the radio.
I got up, switched the alarm off, and did my thing.
Just checked the clock when I set the alarm.
"This is the BBC. It's 1600 GMT."
Back on 91.1 where it belongs.
I believe the ionosphere may have something to do with this, but this morning - 2.6 kHz away from where it's dialed? And tuned to a station I secretly considered as effective wakeup music? Wow. That's quite a coincidence.
It's the Classic Rock Ghost, who it seems also likes active rock, or is generous and believes I like it.
No....I will likely let him and his affair partner know I know and direct him to here in an understanding non judgmental way (I’ll have to feign the non judgmental part). There is no way to remain anonymous if telling the BS....no way.
And don't apologize for not being in a "good place" that is usually not a "choice" we make.
Hey....maybe you're on to something, a call from another country would be hard to trace back to me! BTW how do you end up apologizing for interrupting YOUR thread?
This was an interesting read this a.m., just perfect with a cup of java.
Gray, I loved the classic rock ghost story. Cool!
And Binder is sharing more than he has in a very long time. Doubly Cool!
J, reading about how you knew he had broken up with his girlfriend without being told, because of his energy and presense being back in your life reminds me of how very connected we really all our...and then add love into the mix. Powerful stuff you are writing about.
SLH, on Friday night I saw a beatiful moon. I kept wondering if was the "harvest moon" we always here about in songs, and the one which is so powerful for those who practice the ancient practices.
For me I am going to spend the next few months with God, and I have the best feeling that good things are just around the corner now.
2Long, that's it exactly. Were you a cowboy in a previous life? *grin*
I am planning on going trail riding with my oldest DD in a few weeks, once temps drop below 90 or so. <sigh! can't be soon enough!> I am so looking forward to the smell of the westerly breeze, open fires and maybe, if I am lucky, falling leaves. Of course, "Fall" doesn't come to Houston until late November sometime!
Guys, I miss you all so much. I' haven't had a chance to respond recently, but I have been following each post. Thinking of and praying for each of you!
I am ok. Big ups and downs over the weekend. I have to detach more than I have been able to thus far. My emotions swing like a pendulum. We have a conference call with the atty on Thursday and then it goes to the judge. Should be about 3 weeks from there to D. I sent my WH several articles I found on line about telling children about D.
Funny thing is SS, I know he loves me and doesn't want a D. He just cannot let go of his addiction to OW.
SLH, AS long as you swear you are OK, I'll leave you alone.
SS, better than in a long time, and that's without the AD's, too.
Ti is actively looking for another job and we are both looking forward for once in a great long time.
Thinking of moving to hill country (the TX equivalent of mountains, LOL), which I've always loved, in the next year or so. I know my girls would love it. They need to wade in creeks with their jeans rolled up and fish with a cane pole and taste fresh blackberries, as I did as a girl. You just can't get that in Houston, anywhere.
Trying to talk Ti into taking us camping before it gets cool. . . maybe tubing or swimming in one of the clear springs 5 hours west of here. Haven't been camping anywhere since 1994, and man, I miss it.
I wasn't cut out to be an urbanite. I miss fishing for trout and bream, and swimming and hiking. I've gotten lazy and complacent in my city-girl attitude. It's not how I want to be, and not how I want to raise my girls.
If I can't get back on, let me wish you a safe trip and speedy return. Hugs, SS.
SS wrote Nothing else matters at this point. He will have to learn the hard way.
Sorry for the swings - I think it will be AFTER until it will even out for you.
Keep trying, you will make it.
Oh, FF. Hon, this is going to be one of the hardest things you've ever done. I know he loves you. I can FEEL it. But it's not enough now, as you know.
Been thinking about your beautiful DD. Are you going to tell her about the D, or is your H? 3 weeks is so soon! Even with IC this is gonna hit her like a ton of bricks.
We are supposed to tell her together and shortly before he moves out. Yes, the biggest toll will be on my dear sweet, beautiful, sensitvie, loves her daddy dearly, daughter.
Yes, he will have to learn the hard way...but truly it is our children that pay dearly.
Yes, they will pay. No words convey the sadness that a person feels over this.
It wasn't by accident that the savior said: "Matt 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."
Oh, I see. Yes, telling her "together" is best, I just misunderstood your comment about sending him articles on how to break a D to your children.
Will she be angry with him? At this juncture, she has to have some inkling of what has been going on, with exposure to the knowledge of OC and all. Kids look for rational reasons, someone to blame for a D. . . and for HIM, that's a ball and chain of immeasurable weight to carry around: your dd's hostility based on her understanding that his actions caused the D.
How do you shield her from that?
I'd be so bitter that it would show, FF. You are some kinda woman.
Well, SLH he will get some bitterness from her even if we don't directly say it is because he won't let go of OW. She asked her dad recently if he still liked OW and all he could answer was "I don't know". She then asked him if he still loved mom and he said "yes".
We all do the best we can for our kids, what else can we do? I almost ruined their lives with my own A years ago, I have fought to protect them ever since. I can never let my babies down again.
My W and I try to take two trips a year. One in the spring near our wedding anniversery. The other in the fall after her B day. This of is the fall trip.
We will mix it with some family business, but from Wed afternoon on will be just the two of us.
I still owe you some pics of dates, and vacations.
You won't have to say a word about OW or OC; she will know. DDs are perceptive like that (as you know). And your WH will have to live with the consequences of his actions, his foolish choices, and the impact it will have on his burgeouning woman of a daughter.
Just such a damn shame.
FF, know matter what, when it came down to it, you know you did your best, right, Hon?
FF, know matter what, when it came down to it, you know you did your best, right, Hon?
I have for the past several years, but I will always regret my failure to protect my loved ones. It is my job to protect not bring harm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Well here is my song for the evening, in honor of the upcoming fall equinox (thanks JJ, that was cool). So lets all toast to the harvest moon!!!!!
Hey at least we made it through to the fall right? And that's something to put in the old Gratitude Journal, hey?
Harvest = a time to reap in joy, what we have sown in tears...and we have all sown a lot of tears these past months.
So here's to fall, and to all the great people who hang out at Gray's campfire -
The Lonely Road of Faith
Up and down that lonely road of faith I have been there Unprepared for the storms and the tides that rise I’ve realized one thing, how much I love you And it hurts to see, see you cryin’ I believe we can make it through the winds of change
God is great indeed If you believe, in the everlife Yeah we gotta Make some sense of the piece that’s not defined And if you just hold on, I wont let ya fall We can make it through the storms and the winds of change
Though I walk through the valley of darkness I am not afraid Cause I know I’m not alone
And if the wind blows east, would you follow me And if the wind blows north, would ya stay your course And if the wind blows west, would ya second guess And if it blows to the south, would you count me out And if the sun don’t shine, would you still be mine And if the sky turns grey, would you walk away Would you say I do, if I say I’ll be And walk this road through life with me You know I love youuuuuu
On this lonely road of faith On this lonely road of faith
Yes. We held hands last night most of the night while we slept.
She wants to come home now instead of Nov 1st, but her dad will never agree.
I told her when she is 12 when can have the custody changed if she still feels like she wants to live with me all the time then.
She loves her Dad, so she is very torn but she needs me.
And I know what you are thinking SS, as I have thought a lot about it these past few days, and that is that now I am able to be a good mom to her. I am here 100% now, where when Dan was in the picture and especially after I lost the property I was a basket case.
SS, I hope you and your W have a really great vacation!
I should add I had her for the weekend but then she wouldn't go back to her dad's last night so I got her an extra night.
And when she sleeps at her dad's she stays in her own room, but with me she sleeps in my room, always has and I don't care what the "experts" say. This is an old scary house and I see no reason to make her stay in her room, when I am single and have a huge room and bed.
Weaver, I pooh-pooh those old "experts", too. I nursed and slept with all of my babies until they felt ready for their own beds -- a fine line between encouraging independence and reading their neediness. Now they all happily sleep in their own beds but they choose spend many nights with me, too, just for good snuggling and love, or because of a storm, or if they had a bad day.
Those crazy "experts" change their POV every decade on the Parental Bed!
At the current projected path, by Saturday Lovely Rita's eye will be only a handful of miles from my town, a large Cat 4, and we will be on the eastern, stronger, "dirty" side. Storm Surge could wipe us out, guys.
Is it too late to move? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
SLH, my friend Amelia is personally flying through the eyewall of Rita tomorrow. She tells me it isn't even a hurricane yet, but is sure to become one shortly. Certainly as soon as it hits that bathtub-like Gulf.
The models that turn it north seem to be gaining a larger consensus though...
Gray, is your pilot friend a military Hurricane Hunter? How dangerous is it? I sometimes hear about engines going out mid-flight, etc.
FEMA is flying Katrina evacuees from here (Houston) to Arkansas, and Galveston (about 20 miles south of here) is using busses to evac its residents (and pets, I was pleased to see) beginning Wednesday morning. People here are freaked.
I dreaded having to tell my children….actually my son as he was the only one old enough to know what it meant. For the previous 5 mos. we had been in a “separation” as when one was home the other was not. We both were working shifts prior and had maintained opposite shifts so we didn’t require child care. To him the separation didn’t exist, and if he did notice something his mind would never permit itself to imagine the unimaginable anyway.
I knew we had to tell him especially as my WW had purchased a house and would be moving to it shortly. I dreaded the moment; the one where you knew you had just created a permanent and horrific memory in his little mind…the look on his face. I cried when I imagined the scenario. When the time came we too did it together. I told my WW it was her show and she could do the “honors”. I tried to be strong, but I could not keep back the tears. I again hurt typing this as I replay that moment. I now grieve for what you must do.
So this is not the gloomiest post on this page, I’ll tell you once it was done I felt somewhat relieved. He did not react as strongly as I feared and the dread was behind me. Don’t get me wrong….I will wear that moment for the rest of my life, but now it is. I cannot change what was and I now longer walked around hoping for a change in my WW so I could prevent the moment. I went forward.
Sorry for interrupting the storm talk. SLH, my prayers are with you and yours. I cannot imagine the level of destruction one of those storms creates, though we do get the odd tornado in these parts. When I see the results of Katrina I don’t feel so bad about the occasional bouts of -40 degrees we get here in the winter. It sure holds the mosquitoes in check too.
My pal is in the uniformed branch of NOAA - they pilot our planes and boats. The NOAA Aircraft Operations people from Tampa and the USAF Reserves from Biloxi together make up the "Hurricane Hunters". As flying goes it's pretty dangerous, yeah.
For now my friend only aspires to be a NOAA hurricane pilot. She's still on snow survey, but there's little doubt that NOAA will put her in Tampa when she's reassigned.
She's still disappointed - missed the call to fly Katrina by 30 minutes. By the time she got the message, they'd put someone else in her seat. But now that she's in the Gulf and done surveying Katrina damage (flew the entire shoreline at 300') they're going to stick her on hurricane flights for a while.
Sanding, sanding, sanding, sanding.
I have one piece of floor ready to finish - the landing by my side door.
I still have to go over about 400 sq. ft. more with a random orbit sander and a bright light.
They tell me every scratch shows once the finish is on.
Binder, please don't apologize. I'd rather go through 5 hurricanes than have to tell my daughters that their father & I are divorcing.
I will wear that moment for the rest of my life. I cannot change what was and I now longer walked around hoping for a change in my WW so I could prevent the moment. I went forward.
Is this the impasse you were at. . . moving forward? We were really worried about you. I'm glad SS drew you out. You sound more decisive now, stronger. Is that how you feel most often, lately, having come to the decision to move forward?
I again hurt typing this as I replay that moment. I now grieve for what you must do.
Thank you, Binder.
Quote
So this is not the gloomiest post on this page, I’ll tell you once it was done I felt somewhat relieved. He did not react as strongly as I feared and the dread was behind me. Don’t get me wrong….I will wear that moment for the rest of my life, but now it is. I cannot change what was and I now longer walked around hoping for a change in my WW so I could prevent the moment. I went forward
So now you are reading my mind too? Yep still waiting for that last minute ephiphany. Thanks for reliving your pain to help me through this.
Thanks, FF. We still have a few days to figure out where this thing is going. Last night on the news, our weatherman (who is a retired National Weather Service Hurricane Expert) was telling everyone it was headed straight for us (we're 20 or so miles from the coast). This morning when I looked at a different model of Rita's projected path, it seems to be going a bit more westward than towards us.
It'd have to go A LOT MORE west than what I am seeing for us to be spared. It's the winds on the east side of the Hurricane that pack the most punch. Look at MS & AL. Look at how Katrina veered east in the last hours before landfall, effectively "sparing" New Orleans. Even with all of the devestation from flooding there, the damage and death toll could have been so much more severe if the eye had gone west as they predicted it would just hours before. Instead, it went east of NO, and MS & AL retained the wind damage and Storm Surge due to the winds on Katrina's east side and New Orleans would have survived with only "minor" wind damage in comparison to the east side.
So if Rita's gonna go west, I want her to go reaaaalllly west. My house flooded from a similar hurricane (Alicia) in '83, and that was only a Cat 3. Estimates for what Rita will be range between a high 3 and high 4. Ouch.
So much for going camping this weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Now I've got to take myself off to the grocery store. If it comes towards us, we'll be evacc'ing to Dallas or LA. Even if we don't get a "direct" hit, our power will probably be knocked out for some time.
Well, Galveston County, where I live, has just issued orders for a Mandatory Evacuation. Rita is expected to hit between Galveston & Freeport, a stretch of land about 20-40 miles from my home, still meaning we will be on the East (and worst) side of the storm. She'll be making landfall a day or so before they had initially projected, so we are shifting into overdrive. I may not be able to check in too often because we'll be boarding up windows, securing outside items, putting things up high in the house in case of floodwater, etc. I am stressed out because I don't know what to do with my boy (pony) and he's a lot closer to the coast than I am.
We should hear a more difinitive idea about Rita's path by tomorrow AM.
I love to read this eclectic thread. I rarely contribute, 'cos well, I've written enough for ten people this last year and I've backed off hugely from writin.
I'd like to post up some thanks. The 'Harvest Moon' theme from yesterday remnded me obviously of Neil Young's lovely song and album.
I heard it this evening and it lifted my heart.
Quote
Come a little bit closer Hear what I have to say Just like children sleepin' We could dream this night away.
But there's a full moon risin' Let's go dancin' in the light We know where the music's playin' Let's go out and feel the night.
Because I'm still in love with you I want to see you dance again Because I'm still in love with you On this harvest moon.
When we were strangers I watched you from afar When we were lovers I loved you with all my heart.
But now it's gettin' late And the moon is climbin' high I want to celebrate See it shinin' in your eye.
Because I'm still in love with you I want to see you dance again Because I'm still in love with you On this harvest moon.
Childhood living is easy to do The things you wanted I bought them for you Graceless lady you know who I am You know I can’t let you slide through my hands
Wild horses couldn’t drag me away Wild, wild horses, couldn’t drag me away
I watched you suffer a dull aching pain Now you decided to show me the same No sweeping exits or offstage lines Could make me feel bitter or treat you unkind
Wild horses couldn’t drag me away Wild, wild horses, couldn’t drag me away
I know I dreamed you a sin and a lie I have my freedom but I don’t have much time Faith has been broken, tears must be cried Let’s do some living after we die
Wild horses couldn’t drag me away Wild, wild horses, we’ll ride them some day
Wild horses couldn’t drag me away Wild, wild horses, we’ll ride them some day
Actually, I do feel good! But "I'm alone" too. (I don't have the lyrics for that one).
-AD
I Feel Good Music & Lyrics by James Brown
Whoa-oa-oa! I feel good, I knew that I would, now I feel good, I knew that I would, now So good, so good, I got you
Whoa! I feel nice, like sugar and spice I feel nice, like sugar and spice So nice, so nice, I got you
When I hold you in my arms I know that I can't do no wrong and when I hold you in my arms My love won't do you no harm
and I feel nice, like sugar and spice I feel nice, like sugar and spice So nice, so nice, I got you
When I hold you in my arms I know that I can't do no wrong and when I hold you in my arms My love can't do me no harm
and I feel nice, like sugar and spice I feel nice, like sugar and spice So nice, so nice, well I got you
Whoa! I feel good, I knew that I would, now I feel good, I knew that I would So good, so good, 'cause I got you So good, so good, 'cause I got you So good, so good, 'cause I got you
Good news, guys. A friend up on the north side of Houston is taking my boy and a few other horses on her 45 acres to get them out of the flood zone from Rita (we are in the potential storm surge area).
Her offer to take my boy came at the perfect time. I spent the entire day on-line and on the phone, and there are no trailers to be rented (or bought!) for three hours in every direction. Everyone in this area had snapped them up.
I can evcuate to Dallas now and have peace of mind. I'm not so worried about my house or belongings; they're all replacable. But the thought of leaving my horse behind was devestating to me.
AD, do you really feel good? I know you've got a lot on your plate right now. slh
Yes, I do. I find that so often all I have to do is do something different. Sometimes just driving home by a different route makes me feel alive. Tonight, I brought a bicycle over from the other house, put some air in the tires and rode around in circles for about 10 minutes. That did it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Then, I realized that my old car (that used to be WW's old car, that I should have sold by now) was in the way, so I moved it. It's been sitting in the same spot for 3 months - since my van's AC was fixed. Then I realized that the old car wasn't so bad as I had remembered - and I drove to the store in it to buy some things - ending up looking at lighting - and dreaming all kinds of lighting projects around the house. There's nothing like lighting to perk things up - and even if you go all out (except for crystal chandaliers), you won't spend a lot of money. But, I came home with a $5 dimmer, and $3 face plate nd a $6 replacement floodlight fixture. Still, I was happy. Moving the old car around back made me happy. LOL Stupid me. I've got a circular drive and the old car was parked on the circle - so for 3 months I've been backing out every day. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Bright, aren't I?! I'm really laughing at myself now. I get like that - just not seeing where I live - not noticing my surroundings - and then, in a brilliant flash of insight, I relize "I could drive forward out of here if I moved the old car around back." LOL LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I'm a simple man, really.
I'm still laughing at myself.
Life is good. The moon was full a day or two ago. I love fall weather. October is my favorite month. Blue sky (instead of chalk-colored), cooler weather. It's around the corner. I can smell the cotton defoliant in the air. It's the smell of autumn (but we call it "fall" around here.) LOL.
Yeah, and if next fall, I'm not alone, it will be breathtakingly wonderful!
I'm glad you found a spot for your horse. Out of Galviston is the right place to be. Probably the storm will miss, but still it's just good thinking to get out - mandantory evacuation or no.
BTW, my bro took a job in Gulfport MS fixing the cell towers down there. He works 12-14 hour days, lives in a BellSouth tent. I'm proud of him. He says they may be withdrawing if Rita comes close. Probably they'll be right back there in a couple of days.
Yes, I do. I find that so often all I have to do is do something different. Sometimes just driving home by a different route makes me feel alive. Tonight, I brought a bicycle over from the other house, put some air in the tires and rode around in circles for about 10 minutes. That did it. Then, I realized that my old car (that used to be WW's old car, that I should have sold by now) was in the way, so I moved it. It's been sitting in the same spot for 3 months - since my van's AC was fixed. Then I realized that the old car wasn't so bad as I had remembered - and I drove to the store in it to buy some things - ending up looking at lighting - and dreaming all kinds of lighting projects around the house. There's nothing like lighting to perk things up - and even if you go all out (except for crystal chandaliers), you won't spend a lot of money. But, I came home with a $5 dimmer, and $3 face plate nd a $6 replacement floodlight fixture. Still, I was happy. Moving the old car around back made me happy. LOL Stupid me. I've got a circular drive and the old car was parked on the circle - so for 3 months I've been backing out every day. LOL Bright, aren't I?! I'm really laughing at myself now. I get like that - just not seeing where I live - not noticing my surroundings - and then, in a brilliant flash of insight, I relize "I could drive forward out of here if I moved the old car around back." LOL LOL
I'm a simple man, really.
I'm still laughing at myself.
AD,
That was funnier then all get out to read. What goes on with some people, and in their heads is really delightful when they tell you about it the way you did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Hi JSG. That's me, long time member of the pony-lovers regime. Where've you been, babe? How are you?
Yuppers, I 'm a horse-lover. One of my favorite destinations to ride at is the beach -- the same one they are showing on all of the news channels. The water is stiller and darker and muddier in those shots than I have ever seen it in the Gulf. Totally strange.
Well, y'all, I've been watching the news intermittently as I am getting everything ready to go. Still have a ways before we can fly. It is so bizarre seeing our city's evacuation plans listed on all of the National Weather and News channels! But at least we have them, right? So many other cities just aren't prepared.
According to all of the computer models, my house is going under from storm surge. It also did for Alicia, which was a Cat 3, in '83.
Rita's already been upgraded to a Cat 5 with lots of time to go even higher and so we are pretty much expecting it to flood. I am going around, making sure all of our belongings that can be are at least a few feet off of the ground, and taking pictures of them. Ouch.
Darnit, I wanted a fresh perspective on this Monster.
A nice pilot to hook up with over flying? LOL. Ti would rather be flying than *ahem* any day. Flying's just gotten into his blood, the same way I am when I'm riding. The only reason he's not an AF pilot right now is because of his blasted Asthma.
So instead he went to school for his Aerospace Engineering degree. A lot of good that's done recently, poor guy, LOL!
Just killing time while Ti still secures things and we finish loading the car. Having to improvise every few hours as Rita strengthens and the warnings go up -- put belongings higher and higher per the storm surge warnings. It may be pointless but what the hey, can't hurt.
Rita's already on Record as the 3rd most "intense" hurricane agreed via barometric pressure.
Getting jittery waiting to go.I hate waiting. It's damn hard to make a phone call; all circuits are busy. So it's nice to have a place to talk about it.
In other news, did you hear about the one where the Airliner couldn't land? Ouch.
Woops. I thought you meant "hook up" as a long-term paramour. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
LOL. She's right, Gray. You need to get out more. I hear MelodyLane's having a Hurricane Party. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You are wearing yourself down, about to burn out. take a break, even if it's just a little time out with friends. Or will you be berating yourself the whole time for not taking that opportunity to work on the house? I am prone to doing just that myself.
That was funnier then all get out to read. What goes on with some people, and in their heads is really delightful when they tell you about it the way you did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Thanks Weaver! Sometimes I, like GC, wonder if I'm seriously difficient in some way. (I'm sure he isn't, but not so sure about myself.) I thought I was deficient in the humor department. I'm glad that I can amuse once in awhile.
SLH, I've put myself in a game of "Mouse Trap". See, I have to have my floors done by a week from tomorrow, because that's when my parents are coming to help me work on my windows. Which reminds me, I need to get the sashes to the glass man for reglazing yesterday. Oh, and but also then I have to finish stripping and refinishing all the window trim (eleven pieces for each of three windows) by then also.
But all this hinges on the floors being done by then - which the other reason that has to happen is because it's when the equipment I'm renting is due back.
Of course all this is impossible, which is kind of cool. It's like Clark Kellogg says in The Freshman:
"There's a kind of freedom in being completely screwed."
With that kind of a time constraint I imagine you'll be using a water based finish.....No? Faster drying and little odour.
SLH,
I can't imagine getting my house ready to flood. Though if insured I guess it would be good things high......crappystuffIwantohavereplaced......in the basement. Though I imagine in that warmer climate of yours, few houses have basements. Anyways.....prayers to you and yours.
Binder, no way daddy-o. Water-based finishes just seem, somehow, unserious. Not really - I know they're not so bad anymore - but the lap marks and bubbles drive me nuts.
And I do love that smell.
Just did the first "warmup" coat - on a small landing by the side door off my kitchen.
Enjoying a fancy schmancy bottle of English bitter. Almost no U.S. micros make them, maybe because they're afraid none of us will buy a beer called "bitter".
This is "Ridgeway bittah" from Oxforshire. Hoity toity beer. It's wonderful.
But you better not think I don't drink the cheap stuff too.
The water based finishes now are pretty good, but they do leave the wood looking a little “cold”. The oil base finishes have that warm amber look and age well I admit. The smell gives me a headache though.
That hoity toity beer sounds good; I’ll have to look for it here. I call the typical regular pale lagers “lawnmower beer” cuz the only time I’ll drink them is when mowing the lawn. That's right.....I'm a beer snob.
Gray, with everything you do on your house, when on earth do you ever sleep? Especially in light of your Vampire tendencies? No wonder you're so tired. So much to do and so little time.
LOL, Binder. You're right, we don't have basements -- in fact, in all my years in Louisiana and Texas I have never seen one. But people here sure make extensive use of their attics.
I don't think that will help much here if 200+mph winds are making landfall only 20 or so miles from my house. Attic? What attic?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I don't think I'm as worried about flooding from rainfall as I am about Storm Surge -- we didn't flood during Tropical Storm Allison, when the rest of Houston went underwater. Over 25 inches of rainfall in my area in a 24 hour period, and nearly 37 inches of rain was recorded at the Port of Houston over the course of a few days. And yet we stayed dry!
It was Hurricane Alicia in '83 that flooded our house a few feet. Alicia was a Cat 3; Rita's a Cat 5 and still its winds are intensifying. All that water in the Galveston Bay and from the coast will just be shoveled inland.
Either way, we don't have flood insurance; doesn't that bite? One of those things we kept putting off because of the money. I remember hearing back in February that this Hurricane Season was supposed to be one of the most active ones on record, and even back then I wanted to get Flood Insurance just in case. Oh, well. That's why I've been piling stuff up as high as I can get it, and then higher than that.
I'm hearing a lot of noises from states griping at insurance companies for not shelling out the home insurance money for "Flood" damage. The "Flood" in these particular instances wasn't due to irregularly high rainfall, but due to storm surge because of a Hurricane, so they argue, it should be covered, not being a "bona-fide" flood. It's just semantics.
We'll work it out, no matter what. But I always appreciate your prayers.
I wanna see pics when you are through with those floors!
Me too!
I have my pre-trial in the morning, so wish me luck or better yet wish my lawyer luck. The max I can get is thirty days for first offense, but I don't know if that is decided tomorrow or not. The lawyer should be there early to explain things to me, said his secretary.
It is at 8am so now I am having this fear that my alarm won't go off. It always go off and I am usually up at 5am anyway, so it's crazy to have that fear.
The other day I drove to Saint Paul for some floor-refinishing stuff. The store I visited is in the neighborhood sparrow and I lived in for three years, just before we bought this house.
Being there naturally made me think back on the time when I lived there. I visited the grocery store where we used to shop, the hardware store just down the street from the house we rented.
That was a happy time. Sparrow and I were getting established in our careers. She graduated college while we lived there. I remembered the party I had for her. I remembered having my family there for Xmas one year.
When we bought a house and moved, things began to change between us. The bottom fell out less than a year after we'd bought this house. Remembering some of the things she said, some of the looks she gave me during that time, I know she was doubtful and restless. My disagreeable, perfectionist, defensive nature was on full display much of the time.
Sparrow's best friend had this little self-help book, The Four Agreements I think it was called. She told sparrow she thought I should read it. When I heard this I was shocked. Why would she think I needed guidance? But I did. I just couldn't see it. Sparrow never learned to suggest such a thing in a gentle or loving way. She's too inarticulate. It always came across to me as cold criticism.
Anyway, this is just me, late at night, rambling away.
I wanted to take a walk to the lake when I finished working, but I'm too wiped. Sometimes at night I walk over there and sit on a bench in front of the water.
There's that old feeling again. Something I should be doing. Something different and scary. Something that working hard at my job and working hard on my house is keeping me from seeing. Something my legion distractions keep hidden. Too little time spent just quiet, resting. I am in constant motion.
That will continue a little while longer. But after I finish the refi, I'm going to take a week off and go somewhere quiet. I don't know if it will be much different from the trip I took during the middle of last year's sh*tstorm of grief. Too much has been supressed, and I expect to experience some serious sadness. But I look forward to it. A chance to stop everything else, take a little time, and figure out just where in the world I need to be headed. Let my compass stop rattling.
Guys, wanted to let y'all know we are safe in Dallas. It took 25 hours for a normally 4.5-5 hour trip (at one point we had only gone 74 miles in 18+ hours), but we are here and safe. Most of the time we were on I-45 and let me tell you, that is a nightmare I will not soon forget. Heartwrenching. Thousands of people stranded on the side of the road in the searing heat; their cars overheated or simply out of gas, because they kept driving with the hope of finding some until they ran out. (There is no gas in that area, and refueling trucks can't get through the glut of cars to reach the gas stations to refuel them.) Exhausted women carrying limp babies that are too tired to cry, overwhelmed elderly people sitting beside their overheated cars in collapsed resignation, caravans of families with no gas and no hope of gas beyond the promises of fuel trucks being sent to the region. The thermometer in my car that measures the temp outside stood at 113 during the height of the day, but even after 4 and 5 PM it was still 100.
Eventually, many people--hundreds, in some places--just gave up and began parking along the shoulder of I-45, effectively setting up "tent cities" (there are no hotel rooms with vacancies within 500 miles, even if they could get there). In many places, traffic was at a total standstill and so these families felt they had nothing to lose by pulling over for rest or to "picnic" with whatever food and drinks they had. Many people just lurched into a ditch and slept however they could, limbs hanging haphazardly out of their cars. It was heartbreaking.
One radio personel said that he had spent 7 hours going only 1.7 miles (on 290 west, before he gave up and turned around to ride it out in Houston), and in that time period, he had seen over 90% of people with their windows down, either no air conditioning or their A/C turned off to prevent overheating of their vehicles. Kids rode in backs of pickup truck, families in mini-vans drove with their sliding doors and back-hatches open to increase air circulation and bring some semblance of a breeze. I guess since we were all going, at best, a periodic 3-4 miles an hour, they thought everyone was safe.
We were so fortunate, y'all -- We never once had to turn down or off our A/C, or stop for gas once we had filled up. I can't imagine what those people are suffering in this weather.
If you could, please do pray for those poor folks left on the side of the road today -- some of them have been there for 25-38 hours and have had no relief. Babies, moms, dads, elderly people. . . it is such a tragedy.
I'm going to go ahead and turn the news on today -- haven't done so since late yesterday evening and didn't realize so many other things are taking place re: Rita's change in course, the bus tragedy, etc. I almost can't bear to hear any more bad news but need to know where things stand for Louisiana, where my whole family lives (they still have evacuees living with them from NO).
How are you, Hon? Have you seen your lawyer and I missed that post? What is the latest?
Weaver, what is going on with you & court? I thought I saw something about that somewhere, and I am waiting to hear specs, babe. You okay?
Gray, you sound weary, hon. Mouse trap, indeed. This tourniquet you're improvising with isn't working, bay. Just please don't burn out before your well-deseerved break. Where are you thinking of going?
SLH, did our telephone conference with the atty yesterday. Couple more weeks and he will have our paperwork finalized and then it gets to sit on a judges desk for about 3 weeks. WH and I actually spoke this morning about delaying the final filing a little longer. He needs his dental work done and I would like to file a joint tax return one more time. We are going to discuss and then discuss the possiblity with the atty.
Weaver had court this am. Weaver? prayed for you this morning...how'd it go?
FF, is this going to delay when he moves out too???? i personally advice against letting him delay moving out.
of course that is my opinion, your's is the one that counts. and in case you didn't notice, i did not say your's and your WH's opinion is the one that counts. just YOUR'S!!!
FF, is this going to delay when he moves out too???? i personally advice against letting him delay moving out.
It may but this was my idea. We have not talked it through yet. Just one of the ideas I have tossed around. We'll see, thanks again for your concern I really do appreciate it.
Thank you for caring about how it went with me this morning everyone, and for your prayers.
The prosecuter dropped it to impaired driving, which is a lesser offense. I can only drive to and from work for 90 days, 90 days probation, 93 days suspended sentence, alcohol classes, $750 fine, 1000 to get my license back in Jan for two years.
I am not in a very good mood, but I guess it could have gone worse.
Just talked to DD's dad about our custody arrangement as I might not be able to get her back until Jan, as I cannot drive her to school or to any functions.
And that just isn't fair. Even the probation officer said that this state is too hard on first time offenders, like me who will never be back in there anyway.
But the state needs money I guess. It was nice that all the people I saw today and who have heard about it keep telling me that they can't believe it as I am the least likely person to be out drinking and driving.
Oh well I was guilty so can't complain too much, I just wish they wouldn't have restricted my license, because of my DD.
Oh dear, I really hoped and prayed it wouldn't affect custody. I know you are a one time offender but those tough laws are for those that aren't. Darn! thanks for the update {{weaver}}
Give this some time before you make any decisions regarding DD's custody.
Can she ride the bus to school? And you have some friends I know who would be willing to help to take you and DD places you need to go.
I don't want you to get down about this.....take some time to grieve this, and give people a chance to help you so you can keep your original custody arrangement hopefully.
Talked to my ex again, and we will work something else. And yes I might have to make myself rely on others for help but it is going to to be so hard to do that Csue.
I am sure you guys know how hard it is to accept help. One of my shortcomings and it is so hard to get over.
SLH, I think he has put a very difficult deadline on himself because his parents are coming to help him with his windows. GC, if you take a break check in.
No I have not been away a few days because I'm working too hard. Truth be told I've been idle on house things for a few days, and I've asked my parents to postpone their visit.
I'm tired, sad, ambivalent, and plagued.
I could go on, but it would be a broken record.
Right now what I've done for the last 16 months all seems a little foolish.
If some new person I liked gave two sh*ts about me, would any of this recent history bother me at all?
Right now what I've done for the last 16 months all seems a little foolish.
If some new person I liked gave two sh*ts about me, would any of this recent history bother me at all?
Dunno.
FF, I hope you're okay.
GC, perhaps AD is right and it is time to give yourself a rest. Is there a reason for your timeline? You need to refinance to buy the sparrow out or something like that? I wish I could give you a hand, I hate to see a wonderful person like you feel down. I can also guarentee you that the work you have put into your home is not a waste.
I am doing ok, just getting by day to day. Thank you for thinking of me during your own sorrow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SLH, are you home yet? W is better though still got some asthma stuff going. Darn Santa Ana winds started up today which makes allergies worse. Did you check on your boy? Everything ok?
Faithful, you are learning a lot about yourself. Before I could make my marriage better, I needed to learn I couldn't fix my W. Oh, she has a good side, but everyone has TWO sides. She has faults, she does, but nothing I could do could fix her. I determined to fix my faults and then and only then things started to fall into place.
That doesn't mean you should stay with him, but it tells you where to put your effort, and energy.
I know learning and growing don't take away the pain, I hope that goes down soon too.
Graycloud, I don't think there is any cure for what you have. I believe it is terminal. I perdict you will be dead within 100 years - I am seldom wrong about these things.
Make the most of the time you have before you leave. The older you get, the quicker the time will pass.
(I know Weaver, I should have said "more quickly. I use bad grammer sometimes too.)
Gray, if it were me, I would probalby have a milkshake and think about it a little bit. Not too much though, it takes away from eating the shake. (if you have one you can drink, it's too thin.)
No peace yet, SS. Much anxiety still. Racing heart and mild panic attacks. Part of me still wants the M to heal and part of me wants to move on to newer things. Weekends are difficult because I have too much time to think and H is gone much. This coming weekend we are all going to a church wide retreat from Friday eve to Sunday afternoon. I am partially dreading it because we still present this happy family front to most people. Hard to do for a whole weekend.
SLH, we HAVE been going to church together all along. Now we have nearly 3 days together. I arranged it though so kids and I are in a cabin with the ladies and H is in a cabin with the men. Might be good for him to spend a weekend with Godly men, KWIM? Never underestimate God's ability to pull sinners back into His fold.
SS said:Define OK. Does this mean emotionally OK too? You know what I mean - and why I ask.
Awww, SS. You read right thru my "okay".
After Ti's oft-claimed assertions to "change things", little or nothing gets followed thru. Oh, sure, he starts with great ooomph, but then the effort is too much -- which is a blatant testimony of how he feels about me, about us. . . I'm just not worth it to him. Same old, same old, and the threat of losing me doesn't mean enough for him to work to keep me around. I am weary. So weary.
We discussed today selling my horse. I brought it up, tentatively, hoping that he would fervently dissuade me and find another way to improve things financially in the immediate future. If anything, he looked relieved. Perhaps you can imagine how I felt. My boy is the only thing that brings me true happiness these days. But I listed him for sale on all of the major equine-sale sites this morning.
Guys, I have been at this for 10+ years. I can no longer nobley wave the flag of Matrimony and declare war on the outside forces chipping away at our marriage. I'm tired of doing it alone. I am tired of begging for some attention. It's been over 10 years and my self-esteem has taken such a beating.
So. . .you know how (Susan's?) tag line reads that she would "rather be happy alone than sick with someone else"? Well, that's finally me. I've begun looking at jobs and rental properties in another city where childcare and housing are cheaper -- let's not even get started on the kind of lower-level, minimum-wage job I would have to take because I have absolutely no skills. It was with great amazement today that I realized that the aforementioned is one of the only reasons I am sticking around. . . then we toss in the fact that I don't think anyone else would ever want me -- 31, three kids, and even my own husband can't summon the energy to *try* to improve things for us or between us. Ouch. I guess I never realized what a toll on my self-esteem his blatant disinterst is.
A walk-away wife, but one who screamed over and over in an effort to be heard. I hate what I have become.
AD, Do you ever take long vacations? If you don't, I want to know why.
SS
Hi SS,
Well... yes and no.
In '95 (10 years ago), I took my Mom on a tour of England - which I expected to be the last trip I would take with her.
But, in May of '96, she invited me on an Alaska cruise with her, which was the last trip I took with her. I'm glad I went on both of those.
Back in June '96, I quit my job and, although I got called back in as a con$ultant <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> - and ended up working back at the same place a few times, I was really on an extended vacation until about about Feb '98 - when, with things jelling with my wife-to-be, I figured I should take the opportunity to be back at work (at the same place I was at for 20+ years). Mom moved in with me in Sept '96, (after she fell and broke her wrist) during the time when I was not working regularly - and I had a lot of time with her, which I'm glad of. She moved over to my bro's house when I married - to give us "space".
In April of '97 (while I was not working), I spent the entire month in Ukraine, during which I met my wife-to-be's parents, who asked me to take a package back to their daughter in 'bama, which led me to meeting her - and etc.
In the summer of '98, W's parents came and the 4 of us we took a 5-day road trip together, during which, on July 26, we got engaged.
We married in December, '98 - and took a 4-day honeymoon trip - coming home on Christmas eve.
We made one trip to Florida in the spring of '99.
Eight months after our marriage, we spent 3 or 4 weeks in Ukraine in the summer/fall of '99. OM knew that W was going to visit her parents and showed up there - which was the first time XW and OM met in person. My FIL and I found them together on the beach at 1am - leading to some minor violence <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />. Does that qualify as a vacation in your book?
Then, W's niece came to live with us for 4 months, but at the end of '99, we took (with W's niece) a trip to Washington DC and NYC - saw in the millenium on the Mall in DC. I think that trip was about 10 days. The neice flew out to Moscow from JFK and we returned through Philly - staying a day or so with a friend of mine.
Then in 2000, we got pregnant, and took one trip to florida for 3 days or so (again, not a long vacation) when XW was about 2 months PG. This was the only time she ever wore a bikini. I think she figured it might be the last opportunity. On the drive down (about 12 hours), W threw up before we even got out of town. I figured she would decide not to go, but she took over the driving and drove all the way to Macon.
In the fall of 2000, W's nephew (18 at that time) came to live with us and go to college. Then 2 months later our baby was born. I took some time off when DD was born, but not as much as I should have - a couple of weeks at least, but I should have taken official "parental leave", which I could afford since I still had savings at that point.
Then, when DD was 6 months, XW moved out to an apartment and we were separated. A month later, I lost my job - and was out of work for 13 months. I didn't take any "vacations" then, but worked on my house - like GC - only less effectively, since WW and I were still very involved with each other and she was constantly critisizing everything I did on the house.
I got a new job in July of '02, we bought another house and moved back in together in October of '02. WW parents came to stay with us for 3 months starting in November of that year, my Mom died on Christmas day and W's parents stayed until mid-February. No time for vacation then. I was on a new job and had little vacation allotted.
Since then, we have taken one, 3 or 4 day driving trip to FL (with W's nephew), and in December of '04 took a very nice, but short trip to NYC and Orlando - about a week. Then in May of this year, our last trip together to Orlando again, but driving this time - probably only 4 or 5 days.
So, that's a 10-year history of my vacations.
Right now, I get 3 weeks per year - including sick leave. In my old job, I had 5 weeks of vacation, plus up to 2 weeks regular sick leave, and 1000 hours of accumulated extended sick leave. So, I try to save a week in case I get sick - and that doesn't leave much time for long vacations.
Wow SS, your short question got me going!
I would love to take a long vacation, but my work situation is not strong enough to permit it right now. In my old job, I could take up to 2 weeks of leave without pay at any time with the approval of my immidiate supervisor - and I had money in the bank and could afford to do that whenever I wanted to. Now, I'm in a tight spot financially, and need to get a house sold before I can think about even asking for time off without pay. I guess I'll wait till the next time I lose my job (hopefully not soon!) and take advantage of the transition time.
Appologies to GC for taking so much space on his thread.
FF, I am not underestimating, I'm just. . . intrigued with the thought of you all going every Sunday (Ti won't come, unless I gripe, which I refuse to do). Will you still go together once your D is final?
Hopeful for your retreat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I hate weekends too -- every weekend. During the week, Ti is busy enough for me to excuse his disinterest, but sometimes on the weekends it just resounds in the house, a vivid reminder.
I'm not good enough
I'm not good enough
I'm not good enough
Man I wish every day were a weekday because of that.
The whiney violin music I put on to accompany my sob story must have driven him away. I never was very good at the violin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
AD, I was wondering because it sounds like you could use a little stress relief like another person on this thread. Sometimes when we get outside the "box" it's easier to think about how to improve our lot in life. The box of course, is our every day life.
I think about you, but don't have any good suggestions about change or improvement. You SOUND good - really good considering what is happening in your life. I admire your ability to soak up the troubles and still function.
If you ever get out west, come see me. I can even be talked into staying up late sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
then we toss in the fact that I don't think anyone else would ever want me -- 31, three kids, and even my own husband can't summon the energy to *try* to improve things for us or between us. Ouch. I guess I never realized what a toll on my self-esteem his blatant disinterst is.
A walk-away wife, but one who screamed over and over in an effort to be heard. I hate what I have become.
You have got to be kidding! You would be a prize, believe me you would. Stop picking on yourself, I understand your feelings. Only you handled them better, I had an A when life was like that when DD was little.
Sheesh, AD what a roller coaster M you have had.
SLH, going to church together is still something I enjoy. I always have hope that he still WANTS to attend. He even went with DS the weekend DD and I were out of town.
If you ever get out west, come see me. I can even be talked into staying up late sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
SS
Thanks for the kind words SS - and don't invite me lightly. I'm not from MN - where they say "have some", "no, I ate at home", "Oh, you must", "No really, I'm stuffed, thank you", "But we'll have to throw them out if you don't have some", "well, if you insist".
If you say "have some", I'll say "<burp>, that was good, got any more?"
So SS, email me at mb11094@yahoo.com, and tell me where you live and I'll probably come and see you. Really! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
But he is always talking about those after-life movies, yanno? And he always took the time to explain things to me, like the posibility of after-life from a metaphysical viewpoint, as well as spiritual.
I have things which I see in my real life which remind me of each and every one of you, so that is where I see you.
You AD remind me of a southern, gentlemanly, book loving, culture loving kind of guy so I see you in lots of things too.
I could go on about everyone here, just like when I put down which actors reminded me of everyone...but I'll spare ya'll tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
[quoteA walk-away wife, but one who screamed over and over in an effort to be heard. I hate what I have become.] [/quote]
If there is one thing that I have finally learned SLH, it is that actions speak louder than words. Even the loudest of words. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I hope you haven't gotten to a place where resentment has hardened your heart against a possible change by your H.
This truly is what walk away wife syndrome is SLH.
I could go on about everyone here, just like when I put down which actors reminded me of everyone...but I'll spare ya'll tonight.
Actually, and I am sure I speak for most here - you are a lot of fun when you get to typing things like that. Saying you will spare us is kind of like saying: "Well, I just cooked a 5 course meal, and I know you are hungry, but I'll spare you having to eat it."
I can't figure out what you are talking about here SS...
but you are welcome!
You are such a good example. You have all this emotional trauma, and you study, learn and you get through it so well. All the while encouraging others and helping when you can.
I know that when we see ourselves, we often see only the down side, but I see such an upside too.
I am really, really, really impressed. Just thought I should say so.
Saying you will spare us is kind of like saying: "Well, I just cooked a 5 course meal, and I know you are hungry, but I'll spare you having to eat it."
Oh that's funny SS!
I think I told about the new assitant I hired on 7/21 when the old one quit.
Well I hired her on personality alone. I was feeling so bad at that time, that when she came into the interview (7th one in a day because my boss was only in town for that day, and he has to okay who I hire) she started laughing a bit and I just knew she was the one. No experience at all, and she is about 49 yo but we hired her that night.
I honestly believe that God sent her because I would not have survived the days without her. The first thing she did was bring in a stereo and some candles.
We have literally been laughing all day long every since.
Anyway, I went to her house (way out in the country) Sat night to meet her H and have a bonfire and I have to tell you I have never seen a couple so happy and so in love. 14 years and they are like kids.
I had the best time, but most of all I knew in that night what I want. And that is it.
I want a great relationship, with a godly man. I mean he is kind of a rebel, and so is she but they are very godly people.
We just laughed all night...about his years in trouble with the law (old him), and their hunting escapades and all the animals they have brought in and cared for over the years.
I am going to get her on Nov 1st as planned, and a neighbor has offered to drive her to school, then my sister and Teresa (my assistant at work) will take turns picking her up and bringing her to the office until I get off.
She broke down and cried when her dad told her she might be staying there for another few months, and so I asked for help.
And I got it.
Faith, I hope you are doing okay. I can't wait until life is good for you again, and I pray it won't be too long now.
SS, yes you would get a kick out of her, she just brings out the best in everyone. She is the first one I write about in my gratitude journal every night, and she can't even handle getting a simple shipment though customs yet (I don't even care), and we even laugh about that. It'll come to her though, takes a while to click and she is very smart, but she sure can't type to save her life, lol. Listen to me, I can't believe I just said that and laughed about it.
There are reasons besides surliness I'm not around much.
At work, our busy season (aka the winter) starts on October 1. We spend our summers improving things. I've got some super cool new stuff up my sleeve, but there's a bunch of things to take care of before it can be unveiled next week.
I showed our head scientist some of my new stuff yesterday. He asked if the director had seen it. Not yet, not like this, I told him. He said, "Get ready for this to be your life after he sees it." It's true, my new stuff is gonna blow the director's mind and will probably steal the show at our first briefing on Monday. It's verrrry flashy.
So work is busy.
As for the other thing, no FF, I haven't lost the house. However, I may as well report that sparrow has neglected to fufill a major obligation in the divorce agreement. She's seven weeks past her deadline. My lawyer has contacted hers, but I haven't heard anything. Until that part is done, until sparrow is no longer in contempt, my hands are tied w/r/t the refi.
As far as being burned out or needing a vacation, I think like most people I'm self-regulating, regardless of my obligations. When I woke up on Sunday morning, I knew I was too exhausted to continue. I took it easy for a few days and postponed my parents' visit, and I'm ready to jump in again.
The boo-hooing about "I've wasted 16 months" has more to do with a sort of low opinion I have of marriage right now. My friend really put it to me the other night. She more or less accused me of living like a monk and fighting for my marriage only so I could be sancimonious and point my fingers at the infidels and say "you are bad and I am good".
I tried to explain that I just did my best to protect my M during an especially sucky manifestation of the "for worse" part, and that I didn't do it so I could look down on anybody. I only did it so I wouldn't have any reason to look down on myself, and because I thought I had a moral obligation to do it.
But some of what she said is sensible. I have no children, and my ex is an adult. What was there really to protect, except for an emotional attachment?
But some of what she said is sensible. I have no children, and my ex is an adult. What was there really to protect, except for an emotional attachment?
I don't think that is fair, really. Marriage is not just an "emotional attachment". Marriage is a lifetime committment to another human being that you promise to love forsaking all others. Someone you plan to grow old with, have a family with. Your spouse is not someone disposable like a boyfriend or girlfriend, KWIM? GC, you were fighting for that person that you committed your life to and for your moral beliefs. It is very honorable.
Graycloud - I've been thinking. Of course, different people get different things from music.....
Hello darkness my old friend I've come to talk with you again.....
Isn't it interresting that sometimes we do view darknes as a friend. And also we visit, when so often we could avoid it.
Not many of us have a proactive way out of the darkness. As sharp as you are, I think you could do that, if you put your mind to it. The hard part might be knowing when to apply the method.
SLH could use a way out of the darkness - all of us can on some days.
Me, I pray, and I go do something. Whatever my biggest fear is, whatever is most difficult for me, I face that and go after it for all I'm worth.
Faithful can see some light in her life. It comes from inside, doesn't it Faithful.
Me, I pray, and I go do something. Whatever my biggest fear is, whatever is most difficult for me, I face that and go after it for all I'm worth.
Faithful can see some light in her life. It comes from inside, doesn't it Faithful.
Many times because of my tendency to avoid things I fear, I do those tasks first. I come from a long line of procrastinators. I too try to face my fears, SS. I don't always succeed but feel much better when I do.
Yes, there is light and I am trying to find my way out of the darkness. It takes a lot of faith to do so. I fail, then get up and do it again. SS, the light inside is what gives me hope.
Binder, I was going to do this as a long post, and give background, but I have to leave in a few minutes and I want to do it before I go. If it doesn't make sense, I will fill in later, and please tell me so I can.
Your post has been on my mind. All last week, and this week since I read it.
The Lord Jesus Christ. He was born, and learned as we learn. He wasn't perfect all at once. Started out as a baby, learned to walk, to talk, and grew as we grow.
His focus was better, he knew earlier than any of the rerst of uswhat he was here for. Once he knew, he persued it with a passion. Not always because it was his first choice, but because it was best. He always did what was best.
What is best is what brings happiness. We believe that, but we don't always live as though we believe.
There are two parts to us. The spiritial, and the phycisal. The physical is the part that gets hungry and demands to eat, the spiritial the part that says "you are fat enough already, lets just wait until dinner time."
Imagine with me.
Jesus Christ contacts you - you pick how he does it, but lets just say he does. He wants to meet with you. The time and place are set. It is this weekend, at your house. Just the two of you.
He arrives - and stands at the door, and knocks. You open the door and invite him in. He looks at you. What do you feel? You know he knows you. You know he understands you - all of you. The public parts, the private parts. He knows.
You invite him to sit. The house is clean, the visit prepared for. He sits, and calls you by name. Tell me how you are, he says. He looks at you as you begin to talk.
So you tell him. You tell him everything, the good, the bad. The things that have happened, the feelings you have had.
Do you leave anything out? There is no reason to. None at all.
You finish. You wait.
What might he say? What advice might he give?
This is God, the son. He who overcame all things. The one that said he would have often gathered his people as a hen gathered her chickens under her wings. The same one that said he would come in his glory, and the wicked would be destroyed.
What does he say to you, this God that loves you, yet that always exacts perfect judgement?
Remember, his plan for you is a plan of happiness, not a plan of sorrow. Remember, he knows where that happiness lies, his rules the best way to bring happiness about. You teach your children these same things. You know them to be true.
I encourage you to seek after happiness with all your heart. It is what he wants for you.
SS, today I went to an estate sale and got S&G's Greatest Hits on vinyl. An easy record to find. A nice coincidence.
Here's another one:
Yesterday at work I got up and walked across the lab for something. Absentmindedly, I whistled the theme from "The Andy Griffith Show". Unusual, since I don't whistle a lot. The choice of tune, while familiar, was similarly unusual.
As I crossed the lab, one of my colleagues came out of his office and walked over to me. His eyes were biiiiig.
"When you started whistling just now I was ending a phone call with my brother. He's in Mt. Airy, North Carolina."
He explained: Mt. Airy is the birthplace of Andy Griffith, and the model for the town of Mayberry. His brother has some crazy fixation for this little backwater.
Synchronicity.
As is true for most everyone, I suspect, this kind of thing happens to me all the time. Inconsequential coincidences. I think they're fascinating. You can't do the math, so I couldn't say whether their frequency exceeds their likelihood, but they're always surprising.
I think SLH asked if I was in AD withdrawal. I don't know. I'm sure it's been more than a month, though I can't remember exactly when I stopped. Last time I stopped, I was okay for around a month, then got awfully down. But I don't want them any more. There was a time they served a purpose. It was a bloodbath. I was falling apart.
But nowadays, even with frequent stretches where I feel a huge amount of sorrow and confusion, and with this chaos in my home, there is some flotsam around that suggests I'm doing okay.
I first found MB at an Internet cafe in Parma, Italy. Ain't that a fancy way to have taken on the label of a BS?
Sparrow was just starting her affair, emailing the tinman from probably some Internet kiosk at her trade show. I didn't know what was happening. All I knew was that it was a horrible, horrible vacation. My wife was treating me like a war criminal, so I knew my marriage was in trouble, but the reason was a mystery. I Googled frantically.
It's strange when an affair happens, how you know but don't know. I remember that I Googled "infidelity", but I didn't really consciously think "Holy crap Sparrow is having an affair" until she'd actually left, about six weeks later.
So that day when I went alone to Parma, I bought a whole mess of Parmigiano-Reggiano to bring home. Even if you're miserable, when you're visiting the hometown of the king of cheeses, you get some.
Partly because it's expensive, but also because it's got that nasty memory attached to it, I went a long time without buying any of this stuff, which used to be a fixture in my kitchen.
Well here I am, paring the last curls near the rind from a hunk of the stuff. It didn't even occur to me until now, this is my first Parmesan since '04.
So was SS's to Binder. I know it really helped me, as I have been trying to connect to God for awhile and needed to read that. I will try thinking of it that way.
Gray,
As far as the little things meaning so much, such as syncronicity and you whisling that tune (my dad always reminded me of Andy Griffith and came from a small southern town like that), and being able to eat the cheese now - it is so true.
I remember when my DD's dad and I split up I couldn't listen to music for two years. He is a musician and music was such a huge part of our lives that it was painful to me after he left.
I knew I was going to be okay when music started bringing me joy again.
It took a long time to get back to that place where joy was a part of my life again.
Funny we get these loners on the night shift nowadays. A good sign I reckon.
SS, the smile is a little lopsided. I'm a buoy. And can't help but think about chemistry when my level changes. Learning to manage lows is an experiment. Used to be they were too rare for such easy study.
I don't have a story, just a quotation.
"Be Kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle." Philo of Alexandria
I'm here, just quiet. HoFS and I are apart this weekend. He'll be here next weekend. I've been thinking about what to say about my weekend with him. It's been a long time since I had someone I wanted to brag about to the world, and it's hard not to brag too much. There are details you don't want to share, you know? Of course you do.
This weekend was my birthday celebration (the birthday itself is on Tuesday) and my cousin came down from Manhattan to celebrate with me. We had birthday lunch yesterday, my brothers and my cousin and my daughter and a couple of friends from here. It was very nice. The best part was the corn chowder. I made it with turkey bacon instead of ham. Good stuff.
A friend brought store-bought cake. It's okay but nothing to write home about.
And really, the best part is spending time with people I love.
That goes back to HoFS, of course. He's a major source of time spent with someone I love right now. We talk on the phone for a couple of hours every night, even when we're so tired that it's really unwise to stay awake.
And when we're together, well... there are significant parts of last weekend that I had to reconstruct from fragmentary bits of almost incoherent memories. In some places, there is little but a hazy memory of incredible happiness. Drunk with love, indeed.
You asked about the boys. I met all three. They're good solid sorts, and I like them. The oldest is determined not to like me and I engaged him on his level briefly. I'm not proud of that. The middle one couldn't help but smile when he met me. He's trying hard to at least disengage and pretend not to care. The youngest seems less prone to outward expressions of dislike, and is young enough to interact like a kid rather than a young man.
I also saw, from a distance, their mom. It was very sad -- she radiates sadness. I know how her sadness was created, and I know her part in it. I still feel it with her and wish there were some way to comfort it. I really hope she finds happiness.
HoFS has a lovely home. A to-die-for screened in porch that looks out over fields and forest and off into the green distance. Morning glories growing all over outside, other flowers and green-and-growing things. Herbs that he can mow and smell the good scents. A back pasture and a front pasture and corn fields next door. A house designed for laughter and people.
We saw some of the things in his world. Places he shops and the high school football stadium (yes, we went to a game) and the place where he plays mini-golf with his kids (we played a game there).
He bought me an ice cream cone in a little dry-goods/grocery store. He made me a picnic one night and bought me dinner the next night, peanut butter cookies for a snack and biscuits and banana bread for breakfast (yes, he's a good cook!). We cooked together -- scrambled eggs and other things.
And most of what we did was none of these things. Most of it was the things that two people do when they're in love and can't help but falling into each other's eyes when they look at each other.
And ... I was discovering that I felt more at home there than I had expected to. A great deal more than I'd expected to, in fact. It's been tough, in a good and scary way, facing the depth of how I feel about this. There are times when we both say that there's no way this can be real.
All too soon, I was back at the airport being kissed by a man I love. And whispering, "I don't want to leave this place." When I walked up to the security agent, she asked me about the rubber bracelet I was wearing. "It's a Marriage Fidelity Day bracelet," I said.
Suddenly her carefully neutral (disapproving) expression broke into a surprised smile as she looked from me to HoFS and back again. Suddenly we weren't two people annoying her with an inappropriate display of affection in public. We were, she thought, that rarest of things. A married couple who's still in love.
I just looked back at him and grinned. He had no idea what we were saying about him until afterwards, so he just smiled and waved.
Then I walked away, and when I turned to look again, he'd gone toward his car and I couldn't see him anymore. I flew home, and back to this world of mine that I love and which is so far from his. Since then, we've had a couple of hard times. I've made some mistakes that hurt him. And we've worked it through and had a lot of really good times.
So.
I love him.
I don't think I can get out of that; don't think I want to.
I'm trying to take things slowly. Slow is better than fast. It's good that we're six hours away from each other, or it wouldn't be slow at all.
It is part of the reason I say some of the things I say. Battles can be so tireing, and so rough to win.
Loosing is worse.
J, I'm reading, thinking if I need to say anything or if I have anything to say.
I don't know if you need anyting these days.
Been thinking of Penny since she wrote - Much I want to say, but that is a different world, and I need to be really careful what I say, and how I say it. Not because of her - you know what I mean.
I have gone to the thread and sat at the keyboard not a few times, but the words won't come as I wish them to come.
I should just say "HI" but that is not what I usually do.
Well, I am happy for you.
Just so you know, I have been married 28 years, and we are as in love as two can be. (MY opinion.)
We still make mistakes and hurt each other - we are so human. That doesn't make us wish we had never married, it makes us vow to do better.
Hey everyone! Back from my church retreat weekend. Ups and downs but mostly a glorious uplifting weekend in the hills of Hollywood. So close to the city yet so far away you forget where you are. Got to sit around a campfire Sat. evening laughing, joking, doing skits and singing. What great fun and I was high on it all when we got home yesterday. My kids had fun and yes even my H had a good time despite himself!
Hi FF, glad you had a great weekend. and i don't mean to bring you down... but how do you do it?? how do you have the divorce so close to final but still live like a happily married couple??
i'm really neg at this point FF, i hope i am not being disrespectful. i don't mean to be. i just don't get it. i am not on the path of divorce and yet i am way more neg than you. are you in major denial? and/or am i way too negative?
i'm really neg at this point FF, i hope i am not being disrespectful. i don't mean to be. i just don't get it. i am not on the path of divorce and yet i am way more neg than you. are you in major denial? and/or am i way too negative?
Hey FL! You cannot insult me and you are not disrespectful to ask. In some ways, I may be in denial but I don't think so at this point. My WH and I for the most part have a really good relationship these days. Before my last dday we had found a real connection and he really fell back in love with me. Why while being still active in his A? Not sure except after 18 months OW's appeal is really just OC I think. I love him and he loves me, I just can't live with him continually disrespecting me by lying and seeing OW/OC behind my back. I am working on healing personally and as I do so I have been able in many ways to detach. We are still so close in so many ways and we work well together when we are not fighting. All very confusing, I know and yes it does bring more pain to me in a lot of ways because I do love him so. Does that answer you or did I confuse you more?
I KWYM. That is why I have DD in IC. For me? Not sure, just working through my own healing and still holding on to an inkling of hope that he will right himself. He has soooo much potential but I cannot change him, he has to want to change himself.
FF, glad your weekend was all you had hoped. Is DS's breathing better, after the campfire? I think I know where FLT2M is coming from; your situation is just so unique it is difficult to comprehend. But in a weird way it makes sense to me. . . your understanding of it does, anyhow. I think you are just dealing with it with unbelievable class and dignity.
Gray, I think that rule *was* made for people with kids -- and for people who don't know themselves as well as you do and are prone to using the people they date as a crutch instead of truly healing themselves. To me it seems like a case-by-case understanding.
FL, where the heck you been, girl? What's going on with you?
SS, pictures, photos. . . something? Sil vous plait?
I'm doing okay, hanging in there, actually talking to Ti again. For a while there, my anger at him consumed me and I was spoiling for a fight, so I ignored him when I could. That whole "Failure To Protect" thing had me bitter and hard. Still does. I'm a cheap and agreeable wife, don't ask for much at all, so I don't entirely understand why we are in the mess we are in.
Ti's made some strides (again) but at this point I am going to sit back and watch. This week/w-end, I realized how empowering it is "turn myself off" to him and make plans on fixing my future, myself, without him. It was a heady feeling, to say the least. He couldn't touch me or disappoint me anymore. It was frightening and intoxicating in its strength, and a death knell to any future for us if I can't demolish those walls. But I've erected them and there they are. Perhaps I should invest in an industrial-grade drill and make some peep-holes.
Time will tell. I've put a date on it, though. . . this will not be interminable.
A dear friend of mine is going back to Minnesota to train horses for a few weeks/months in the near future. He lived there for 6 years in the past and has absolutely raved about the place all these years hence. He's invited myself and a few other friends (safety in numbers) to go up there and stay with him (Lester Prarie / Waconia) a few days to get settled in, to introduce us to a few of his friends, associates, etc. It's a wonderful offer because some of these people are world-renowned in the horse arena, and meeting them would be somewhat of an honor. Also, I'm considering taking that offer up especially if it's snowing (I've never seen snow more than 3 or 4 scanty inches) and if my close girlfriend (a mutual friend to us both) comes. We'll have to see what happens, and when. He wanted to make it up for the MAHB's Fall Festival, but that was last week, so now his decision is open-ended.
I know a few of you guys live up there; maybe if I end up riding along we can all get together for lunch or something? Or to watch Gray play; that'd be great. It'd be fantastic to meet whomever had the time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Guess we'll see.
Oooh, SLH if you get to meet GC the rest of us that haven't will be green with envy, same goes for you GC I wanna meet SLH IRL! Wah!
FL, glad you understood that bit. I think depending on my mood I come across a little scary to you. I just came off the high of an incredible weekend personally and spiritually so it shows in my posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Now where is SS to see my REAL smile??
It's a beautiful smile, but then, we knew it would be.
Faithful, so happy you have reason to smile. God is good, isn't he.
How come there is so much work to do, I could do a lot more posts if I didn't have to work.
AD, you are doing better at staying off durning work. I commend you.
SLH, OK, I have been thinking about it. You are very polite to say please. Took me a while though, my french is terrible. (Grin)
Gray, I don't have a thing for you today. I would really like to know what your new wiz bang thing for work is, I am not nearly as smart as you (in your field or course) but it is interersting to me.
Got mail from 2long. He is still alive, and well. He didn't say HI, but I'll take poetic license and say Hi from him anyway. He would have if he had not been thinking about something else at the thme. HI !
About the "you must be alone after a D until you're 'happy' and then you're ready to have someone in your life" business...
My thoughts on this...
You need time to grieve what was lost.
You need time to reflect on the part you played in the failure of the relationship, and to make the changes necessary so that the mistakes don't repeat in your next R.
You need time to find your center again, and who you are now and who you want to be, and what kind of relationship/person you want in the future.
Or you can skip all of the above and do a rebound, and lots do.
I think you are going the right route, and as AD once told me the only way through this is the right way. There are no short cuts which lead to where you would ultimately want to be...
whole and healed, with something to offer another.
You must be happy within yourself to attract another who is happy within themselves and to share/enhance each others happiness.
And when one has suffered infidelity, there is a whole lot of healing to do.
Here comes some theorizin' 'bout the self-help jive.
I reckon much of the conventional wisdom that deals with recovering from relationships ending cruelly had its origins in the struggles of women, and often women left alone with their children. I don't think mindlessly reversing the genders gives a result that works for men, necessarily. We know that women can't usually divide loyalties as easily as men can, and are more likely to abandon their partners.
Naturally, there are many exceptions.
Later, to avoid getting into rebounds, women must scrupulously avoid them. All men have to do is not pursue anyone.
Not so? Bogus generalization?
I have a friend who has dated exactly three women in the last ten years, each for a very short time. There's nothing wrong with him. He's a cool guy, he has money, he's healthy, he has no third arm growing out his forehead. So why has he had no luck with women? Because he makes absolutely no effort, and when, every five years, he falls a$$-backward into dating someone, he gives nothing of himself and takes no risks.
I doubt very much that his female counterpart in a parallel universe would be so unsuccessful.
At least her frequency would be better than once every five years.
The point being, such warnings - NO RELATIONSHIPS FOR X MONTHS - require most women to avoid getting into anything. I think many men are more self-correcting. At least I think I am.
I know I'm ready to reach out to someone else simply because I want to try. I'm not attempting to drown out any existential sirens or anesthetize myself. But even so, I'm pretty sure that as long as I'm alone, I will drag this heavy rock of sorrow for my ex behind me.
All that remains of my attachment are the roots, a feeling of concern for my ex that exists no matter what she does. I think it would be fine if a nice girl would come along and dump that debris out of the pot, 'cause it's not going away on its own, and it's not much use to anyone.
With any luck I'll do better than one girl liking me every five years. That would suck.
Though my buddy seems fine with it. Different strokes for different folks...
So SS……I’ve pondered your post for a few days now. I’m still not sure how to answer it.
Happiness…….I still feel it……but there are so many kinds. I’ve felt “happy” at times though I may not be living in a manner that makes me proud of myself. The sort of brief “happy” one gets from consuming the “junk food of life”. Instant gratification. You crave it….you want it…..you succumb to it…..then there’s the inevitable remorse.
I know the happiness you speak of; the contentment that comes from a life well lived. Where all areas of your life are serviced appropriately. Where one’s actions speak of one’s priorities and are in synch with their spoken priorities The life you could record and play to your children to model their life after and make them proud you’re their father. True happiness.
Your scenario of Jesus coming for a visit is vivid. Maybe that will be what judgment day is. Not so much the fire and brimstone stuff. What is brimstone anyway?
What could one say? The Christ…..in ones home. A palpable being speaking to me. Odd? It struck me that the scenario is not so strange other than the personification of him. Do I not have that opportunity now? Am I so foolish not to realize I could have that conversation any time I want?
OK…..it would be different. To hear my questions answered…actually hear it. What would I ask? Why? Who am I to ask God why…….about anything. Would I be crying……would he? What advice would he give? I already have the rule book.
SS……I do feel “out of sorts” these days. My sense of self and direction feels somewhat schizophrenic. I had a better sense of my priorities and lived it when actually mired in the despair of the affair. I can have such a short attention span at times.
I appreciate your prompts……I hope the above rambling isn’t too incoherent.
GC: That's the best rationalization I've read in some time. It doesn't pass the peeeeee-eewwwwww test, of course. But it was a really good try! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
What does "waiting until you're happy" mean, anyway? Absolutely no serious relationships, or any relationships at all? Staying away from the opposite sex at all costs? Hanging out and doing things in totally benign interactions with the opposite sex, whilst guarding your heart? Something in-between?
Curious, because I've seen a few wounded people myself who dated right after their divorces -- these are women, too -- and they managed to find happiness and confidence in the dating scene. They were always up-front with their dating partners about not wanting to get serious, and as a result the onus of a long-term relationship was pretty much removed for them. This allowed them to flourish and grow after their particularly gruesome marital relationships, and no one got hurt, because each of them was self-assured enough to not use their dating partner as a crutch for their own healing.
Was this "Dating with a purpose"? For marriage, no. But for fun, sure. If all parties are forwarned, that is. Deceitful intentions wouldn't have worked here.
So, I don't entirely agree on the set time before someone begins dating again (once the D is final, of course). That boulder Gray mentions having to drag about doesn't necessarily grind down over a designated period for some folks, but it may wear away to mere pebbles for others. I think a lot of it depends on the individual person.
JJ, your post brings tears to my eyes. I love reading them. I miss that kind of love, myself.
Waconia's not that far away? Cool. John said it was west of Min/SP, but I was planning on looking at Mapquest closer to our departure date. As for the when, you gotta know my friend John to know how unorganized and "whatever" his attitude is about things (but he's such a nice guy, people put up with it!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. He's been talking about going to MN all summer, and hasn't gotten much closer to actually doing it than that. So it could be next week or 3 months from now, knowing him. But it would be great to see whomever could arrange a couple of hours. WEAVER -- are you listening?? Hint, hint. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Yeah I'm listening...to a little Van Morrison that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Oooooh, you mean about the possible meet, don't you?
Well I'm about 10 hours away from Gray, and on a restricted license, so I would have to say no I can't make it.
But next time the oppertunity (dang SS I can't remember how to spell that word) arises, I would love to meet you, and Gray and all the rest of the MB'rs too for that matter.
As for your (diatribe?) on dating too soon. Well I can only speak for me, and for me it is way too soon. And Gray had to wait until his divorce was final, and when he is ready the right girl will be there (she is already waiting for him to open his heart again).
I have made a commitment to devote the next few months of my life to God. And boy or boy am I glad. I have found such a friend again, and hope/peace/forgiveness is restored in my heart.
I am studying ACIM again and feel it is the path I need to take right now. (controversial book and I don't wish to debate it with anyone, so that is all I will say).
You sound good SLH, glad you have renewed faith in your hubby now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
PS Just kidding about the diatribe comment, but I can tell when your dander is up. Nothing wrong with a little passion when a topic speaks to you like that, I say.
Okay, I'll start the lyrics out tonight. Been thinking of my dad lately, and this song we played at his funeral because he was a pilot in the USAF and my mom and him used to dance to this song when they were very young and it was popular (but by a dif artist of course back then) We played this version at the funeral.
And 2long if you are reading, and I'm not trying to draw you out either because I know you don't want to post now...but this is for you and your pilot dad too.
Artist: Lifehouse Lyrics Song: You Belong To Me [Jason Wade] Lyrics
see the pyramids around the Nile watch the sunrise from a tropic isle just remember darling all the while - you belong to me
see the marketplace in old Angier send me photographs and souvenirs just remember when a dream appears - you belong to me
and I'll be so alone without you maybe you'll be lonesome too
fly the ocean in a silver plane see the jungle when it's wet with rain just remember till you're home again - you belong to me
oh I'll be so alone without you maybe you'll be lonesome too
fly the ocean in a silver plane see the jungle when it's wet with rain just remember till you're home again - you belong to me
Ten Hours, Weaves?!?! I thought you all lived in the same city. I had no idea you were so far away. And I didn't even think about your license. Crud, Weaves! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
Diatribe? LOL. :<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />: I can't say I feel *that* strongly about it, as much as some folks' attitude that "certain rules" should always be followed in situations like this. . . but not just this one sitch; in many MB sitches. Case-by-case should at least be considered -- it's not always one-size-fits-all. You know?
I sound good? Wow. I can't necessarily connect it to renewed hope in my H though; it is more a knowledge that I have options, and that is freeing, indeed. No more hand-wringing, clothes-rending, hair-pulling sessions of despair when my efforts show me exactly how incapable I am of making this M work; rather, I have choices and I know that I do, where as before I was steam-rolled into the belief I was going to be trapped in this at least another 2-3 years, at most, forever. That knowledge is both sweetly hopeful and nauseating, but there it is. Time will tell.
Hey SS. I like the thought of people who are still in love after all those years. My ex and I were going to be those people. Or. Well. I'm that sort of person. Perhaps it's sad to admit that now. But that's what we had. Rock-solid friendship and love. Even now, people who know us both tell me that we're woven into each other's souls in a way that can't be undone. She's gone on her own path and that's okay now. The parts of our souls that are intertwined seem to function okay at a distance.
Yesterday she helped our DD give me a birthday card about a Mama Bear. Perfect for me, 'cause my last name sounds the same as Bear and I'm known as Mama.
And she wrote "Happy Birthday" in the notebook that we trade back and forth for DD. So strange, to see those little bits of humanity creeping back in. Not really bad. Just strange. Like seeing the first little bits of green in the moonscape that was Mount St. Helens a few years ago. (Also apropos, come to think of it, because of a name association.)
Maybe that's why I'm willing to try this stuff again. Maybe it's because I know all the way to my bones that I have the capacity to be one of those people who is still in love after 40 years. Even knowing, now, some of the truly painful parts that come along. Funny, that.
All the dating stuff and who does it what way is interesting to read right now. I set out, as some of you might remember, to go on 50 dates in a year. I made it to 12 between October and January. They were fun and only one was completely weird. I enjoyed myself -- and I ended up in a relationship with someone who was fun but not quite right for me, nor me for her. The trouble with that is that it caused her pain because she was looking for a long-term relationship. That's one of the risks of dating just "for fun." People fall in love, and then you have the pain of disentangling yourselves from each other's hearts.
Then again, there's always risk when you're working on falling in love. The question is whether it's ethical to date when you know that you don't have the capacity for more. I don't know the answer to that right now, so it's time to end this post and go find some supper.
Choices. That's what it was that changed and I misread, but the change in your tone was very discernable, for the good. I am happy you now sound much better.
JJ,
Quote
Then again, there's always risk when you're working on falling in love. The question is whether it's ethical to date when you know that you don't have the capacity for more. I don't know the answer to that right now, so it's time to end this post and go find some supper.
This is where I get stuck, and the reason I don't like to date, and never did. I know right away if my feelings will grow and if they are the guy for me and I have always felt deceitful when I have continued to date knowing full well that there was a possiblity of hurt for someone.
But reading your previous post on how you and your beau are forced to take it slow because of the distance made me laugh out loud. As if...one could slow down love. If anything it speeds it up, because of the very nature of being forced to live in your imaginations for prolonged periods.
It is very hot here today. Is there a swimming pool nearby? Just dropping by to say *hi* to my fellow campers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
FF, how's DD & DS? Any changes in your H after your retreat?
SS, send some of that "cool" over here! Yes, even that *wee* little bit of cool. It's darn hot here, too; my kiddos are swimming today.
If anyone knows where they are hiring Aerospace or Mechanical Engineers, let me know. Argh. Ti's company didn't have the money for paychecks this last payday (2 days ago). Again. Again, again. Everyone in the office is irate and restless. Apparently, though, this is the good swift kick in the pants he needed. Right now, he is applying for jobs like crazy; cover letters, applications, resumes. He has a phone interview tomorrow with a company in Tukwila, WA, & one in Decataur, AL as well as a whole litany of other job apps out that are coming in. So I may be begging for cold now, but let's see if I do so, if/when I end up in Washington State! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I know right away if my feelings will grow and if they are the guy for me and I have always felt deceitful when I have continued to date knowing full well that there was a possiblity of hurt for someone.
Wow. Very different from me, most of the time. It takes me years to fall in love. Once it happens, well, it's instantaneous, I think. But it has always, for me, been built upon a deep and lasting friendship.
But reading your previous post on how you and your beau are forced to take it slow because of the distance made me laugh out loud. As if...one could slow down love. If anything it speeds it up, because of the very nature of being forced to live in your imaginations for prolonged periods.
You're right, of course. The love is there. The distance forces us to have time apart. That clears out the emotional and biochemical pathways a little, and allows for slightly clearer thought. With four kids, at least two religions, two exes, a six hour drive between us, and various other items to consider, it's worth taking the time to think through how to get to a stable, long-term relationship. Because even though our in-love brains try to tell us it'll all be rose petals and smooches, I'm pretty sure that's not how it would actually look.
There would, after all, still be laundry to do.
Your very cute when in love!
*chuckle* Thank you. Penny has asked me to write about the various components of love (as in Helen Fisher's work on the subject) and how I'm experiencing them as a "class project." That'll be some interesting writing. There are lots of things that I don't share here or anywhere else, but to really do the subject justice, I'll have to delve into some of them. So I'll write, and HoFS will get to read it first and then we'll talk about what not to put out there in the public eye and then something will show up eventually.
And then everyone can comment on how someone else being in love affects their emotional states, and that will really get interesting! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
weather
Low seventies and humid here. Rained earlier; the first measurable rain in something like 2 months.
jobs
I'm glad Ti is thinking about 'em, SLH. I wish him well. Tukwila isn't cold. It's just horrifically damp and dark. I'd take a cold, bright Minnesota January day over Pacific Northwest gray any day.
Does anyone know where I put my extra sleep? I seem to have lost it....
Too hot? I'm looking forward to a gorgeous Thanksgiving weekend, but the temperature won't break the 60 mark.....freezes here at night too. The trees have mostly lost their leaves and geese and other migratory birds are packing up quickly.
I'd actually be quite content if it never got warmer than 60 here. I do not like the heat. You can always put on another sweater in the cold....but once you’re naked in the heat, you can't get nakeder.
Okay, J -- what kind of industry is there in Minnesota? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Maybe I should do a quick CareerBuilders or Monster search. It sure sounds nicer than the P NW.
I gotta say here though that Aphelion has helped us a lot in our job search. He's a great guy. For those wondering, he's doing somewhat better. He sincerely thanks everyone for their prayers.
As for DATING. . . / bump bump BOMP /
Maybe I should revamp my harangue on dating, or its definition thereof.
Dating = a relationship with expectations that lead to something greater and more fulfilling.
I am going out on a limb here and suggesting that perhaps what I meant wasn't necessarily dating at all. It was just male-female companionship, good friendship. Hmmmm. "Dating" was never really a word that crossed these friends' lips. It was my interpretation of such. Wrong, perhaps.
But then there is that whole line of thinking that men and women can't be just friends -- "the sex thing is already out there and the friendship is doomed" . . . but we won't even go there. . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
And y'all are right; "friends" can/does grow into something wonderful and beautiful. Ti & I had been best friends for 7 years before we even began "dating" (yes, with aforementioned expectations, etc).
Anyway, I'm confusing myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> The painkillers I've been taking for my back (had a run-in last week with a horse who thought he was a pogo stick) are making me loony and stupid. Y'all forgive my rambling, please. i gotta go hit the hay.
Industry. Minnesota. Well, I don't live there anymore (I live in Maryland, where the industry is limited and appears to be related to highly classified scary stuff most of the time), but 3M is in Minnesota and so are a bunch of other ones. Uhm.
Graycloud (who lives in the Twin Cities) and Penny (who lives on the WI side of the Twin Cities suburbs) could probably both point you in the right direction. Penny's husband is an engineer who does (I think) medical diagnostic equipment design and manufacturing support.
Binder said: I'd actually be quite content if it never got warmer than 60 here. I do not like the heat. You can always put on another sweater in the cold....but once you’re naked in the heat, you can't get nakeder.
Come on Binder, I thought you could "take the heat."
It's not so bad when you get used to it. 115 deg......... The air shimmers, you can see the heat as well as feel it. Feels like you just stepped into a blast furnace. Wind doesn't help, it just sucks the moisture out of you. You don't shiver at all - ever.
On the other hand, I kind of like 60 deg myself, now that I think about it. (Isn't that about 15.5 or so? I was there in Edmonton when it changed over from F to C.)
Binder, I know why you don't come round as often, but you are missed. Both for wit, humor, and honesty.
I doubt if HE will come any time soon (probably not in the next two weeks.) I understand that we have the plan before us, and know the rules.
If he did come, he would express his love - and you would feel it. He would help, not harm. It would probably be enough to propel you and I to do better. May you (and I) be able to do it anyway. We need to, it's worth it. This I know.
SS, was that a local photo? I love the swaying green hills. Do you actually LIVE there? *sigh* I think I'd handle dry heat a lot better than this soggy-saran wrap heat here. Yech.
J, do you have any more pics of DD you could share with us?
How do you like Maryland? I have to admit, I've always been intrigued with the east coast; vivid changing seasons, gorgeous foliage, variations in topography, mountains and sea. Here in Houston (though not all of TX, by far) it is flat flat flat. We have a 7 month summer and then winter. "Fall" consists of maybe four hours of cool weather on perhaps the 2nd Thursday in November, if that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The only plus is Gulf. When I am brooding and melodramtic, I like to grab a beer and sit on the beach and think. Nothing like that briny sea air to scour the mind's slate and let you feel that anything is possible.
In an ideal world, I'd live near the mountains AND the sea. (I don't ask for much, huh?). Where would any of you live, if you had the chance?
Update: Ti's flying to Decataur (AL) and Tukwila (WA) early next week for personal job interviews. He also needs to resubmit more personal experience info for a few other jobs that are looking at him in Austin and other parts of TX.
Thanks for the prayers offered on our behalf. We do appreciate them.
In an ideal world, I'd live near the mountains AND the sea. (I don't ask for much, huh?). Where would any of you live, if you had the chance?
Well...if it wasn't so darned expensive for housing I would say come here! We have mountain, desert and ocean all within an couple hours drive. On top of that we have great weather. And of course you would have a very good friend nearby. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It's not so bad when you get used to it. 115 deg......... The air shimmers, you can see the heat as well as feel it. Feels like you just stepped into a blast furnace. Wind doesn't help, it just sucks the moisture out of you. You don't shiver at all - ever.
I must admit...that would be cool to see. I love observing the way the climate dictates the vegetation and the animal species and how they adapt to such an extreme temperature. To live in that heat day in and day out though........I think I'd rather have a thousand papercuts on my face.
The cold and snow opens up such a wide and range of activities. The winter here is to be celebrated and reveled in. To shut oneself inside and avoid the cold is absolutely tragic. I figure there is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing and equipment.
Having said that, there are some great places in Canada that would still offer both, but with a far less severe winter climate than where I live now. Many places in British Columbia have very mild climates in the valleys, with access to world class skiing in the upper elevations. I could see living in a place like that in the southern interior. Or even a place like Victoria. You'd be on the coast with likely the mildest climate Canada has to offer, yet you could drive to the hills to ski. I could go for that I guess.
SLH, I hope Ti finds a job in his field soon. I would hate that sort of uncertainty. I appreciate your selfless thoughts given that stressor in your life right now.
I’m still not divorced BTW. A small glitch in the paperwork has delayed things for a little while. As my situation is approaching its 2nd anniversary, my STBXWW is now trying to change the binding agreement so she gets to see the children every other weekend and further that she gets first refusal on any childcare I may require. As I cannot find a job in my agency that would let me work every other weekend, I would require a substantial amount of childcare (her) if she would be successful in this bid. Essentially my 50% parenting would be drastically reduced. I’ve informed my lawyer that this is the proverbial “line in the sand” and that I will resist this at all costs. I have a war chest saved just for these very situations.
Further, as Dr. OM was the vice-president of arguable the highest profile and most popular charity in this province and my WW was his subordinate I’m sure they would be loathe to see this go to an open trial with all the “messy stuff” go on the public record. I mean what if the press were tipped off regarding the proceedings and actually got their hands on the pictures of them leaving a cheap hotel together 2 days after spending Christmas with their families?
What I think is happening is the shine is going off on her fairy-tail life. She likely is realizing that her relationship with OM is implausible and now she is a middle aged single mom that doesn’t see her children on any weekends. Oh well.
What I think is happening is the shine is going off on her fairy-tail life. She likely is realizing that her relationship with OM is implausible and now she is a middle aged single mom that doesn’t see her children on any weekends. Oh well.
That says it all, Binder. You know being on this site has given me great respect for fathers especially men like you, Aphelion, Reborn Man, MortarMan et al...you put your kids needs first when your wives didn't. Stick to your line in the sand.
Thank you for that FF, the validation is appreciated. We have a hockey tournament next month in a resort community nestled in the mountains about 3 1/2 hours west of here. What a wonderful family activity. She'll have to hear about it from the children. She doesn't get to attend any of them.
Speaking of which…..I have to have the kids in an arena tomorrow AM for a 6:30 practice…I had better get to bed!
I'm too tired to do just about anything. My parents are visiting, helping me with some house stuff. Wish I could tell a story. Too tired. Gonna lay down my head now.
Hi SS! It's ok, when you open yourself up on a public forum you get a few of those. DS was sick over part of the weekend and WH worked both Sat and Sun so it was hectic. I still can't fully concentrate at work but doing better, thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Nice to see you smile, even if it is a computer smile.
Is it any cooler yet?
We have dropped down into the 80's and the nights are cool enough to open a window and leave the air off. (Binder never had to run the air all night in his life.)
So you did everything all weekend, and no rest? I wish you got days off, on your days off. At least every once in a while.
Are you still wondering about a lot of things, or do you have it worked out in your mind by now?
It cooled off and now is warming up again! October is a funny month for us. But the nights are cool now. Yes, I wish I had days off too but I would not trade my life for anyone else. My kids are so amazing. No, I am still trying to work things through and reconcile what has happened in my life. The book I am reading was recommended by Bramble Rose "Codependent No More" and it is really helping me personally. I still have that last shred of hope for my M but then I have moments when I wonder why. How are the date nights?
Date nights are going well. Last week was my night in charge. We went out to JB's to eat becasue it was close to the trail head. Then we unloaded our bikes, and rode a paved trail along the river until almost dark, and hurried back to the parking area just as it was getting dark. The nice thing about the river trail is that it's not steep - so it was an easy ride. We talked a lot as we went along. Said "hi" to the people we met. W said "we ought to come earlier and ride all these trails to see where they go." Other trails branch off and lead to parks, and so on.
I sometimes wonder if I ought to tell about happy times when so many are going through sad times. I think it can do some good though, and give hope. Our marriage wasn't always the best, and we have done well since I found MB in Jan of 02. We always wanted a good marriage, and we even worked on it sometimes, but the MB stuff gave us a plan, and I needed that.
I still want to post pics of our trip of two weeks ago. Two or three days with your spouse can do wonders for a relationship. Why do we always think we are too busy, or that there isn't enough money? Maybe we don't really think the D will ever come - with it's resulting income loss?
I'm not really asking you, just kind of thinking while I type.
I still think Dr Harley knows what he is talking about.
Understand, I don't know how you could have done yours differently. We learn, and we get better at things. I feel lucky to have a long term marriage, without having A problems between us. You have done well since you came here, and began the learning process. I have faith your dreams will come true someday too - if you keep doing this well.
Keep reading the books, but take days off every now an then, and do crazy fun stuff too.
SS, I love your happy M posts. It gives my heart a boost to know that it can happen. It also gives my heart a boost to see so many good men on this board. Men that try so hard to recover their M's and care for their children.
I am going to start setting some money aside to try to take a vacation with my kids. Either next summer or spring break. We need it. I will have to persuade another adult to come along because DS's needs are too great. Plus I need company. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Beautiful fall day here……I should be out grouse hunting or taking my bow out for a try at a moose….even the fly fishing would be good right now…….life is too short.
On that note…..a co-worker of mine died last month….one heck of a guy; always positive. He could have retired a few years ago with a full pension, but stayed around to help pay for his only child's education in the States. It’s more expensive to get a university degree on your side of the 49th.
So this happy go lucky chap gets diagnosed with liver and lung cancer early in the summer and by late August he’s dead. This was one guy that was so proud of his wife. He had met her after her first husband died in a traffic collision. He used to put up all sorts of pictures of her taken when they were on their annual “hot” vacation during the doldrums of winters up here. He sure loved her.
Well our agency went the extra yard to provide her with the resources she needed to cope with the loss in her life. She sent a long letter, distributed through our agencies intra-net, thanking many of the staff by name for their consideration during this time. She was touched.
Last night however, apparently still in the throes of her grief, she ran her car until the carbon monoxide overtook her. She could not live without her beloved Les, the second husband she had snatched away. Her son is flying back to bury his last remaining parent. He does not even have a sibling to share this pain with. I’m bummed.
Wow, Binder, that was sad. Even sadder when posted on a board like this, where folks are facing the fact that it was easy for their spouse to walk away.
The other day I was having a conversation with a female friend. I jokingly referred to a famous person as a "slut". She accused me of a double standard, even though I've never said woo-hoo for any guy with a varied and active sex life.
Anyway, we had this long debate about it tonight, and I'm not down because of that, but because of the opinions about me she's obviously developed.
She seems to think that I'm a prude and a scold who views every situation between men and women through the prism of what I've experienced. And regarding my own experience, she's recently said, "None of us know what really happened."
I don't want to accuse my friend of being a bad person. I'm nuts about her. But I've gotten to where I feel like it would be nice to just have a one-on-one with her about my own situation. I don't know if she'd be up for it. I think I'm gonna have her and her esposo over for dinner one of these days and try to get the air cleared. Man, she should know. She's seen lots of this firsthand, but seems to have forgotten.
Well here's to chaos. My house is a mess, and my roommate wants to start moving stuff in this weekend, which means a bunch of work for me. I have a pile of other stuff I need to get accomplished, and fast, and I have to work, sleep, eat, pay bills, etc.
My house restoration has kept my life out of balance for months. Man, you get up thinking you're going to get a window ready, and you end the day with the jambs stripped, but then you find a spot you have to repair with epoxy, and you have to wait until it's warm enough, and then you have band practice. And you need about six hours at the coffee shop so you can straighten out your budget. And it's getting cold, and everyone's howling about what natural gas is going to cost this year, and judging from what you paid last year, you're practically paralyzed with fear imagining this winter's gas bills, and you just want to shrink-wrap your house and move to San Diego. I bet I could get hired at Scripps.
But I bet the music scene there reeks. Not enough misery.
Anyway... see how the focus shifts, and is so hard to keep straight? Tom Waits:
When I’m lyin’ in my bed at night I don’t wanna grow up Nothin’ ever seems to turn out right I don’t wanna grow up
How do you move in a world of fog That’s always changing things Makes me wish that I could be a dog
When I see the price that you pay I don’t wanna grow up I don’t ever wanna be that way I don’t wanna grow up
Seems like folks turn into things That they’d never want The only thing to live for Is today...
I’m gonna put a hole in my TV set I don’t wanna grow up Open up the medicine chest And I don’t wanna grow up I don’t wanna have to shout it out I don’t want my hair to fall out I don’t wanna be filled with doubt I don’t wanna be a good boy scout I don’t wanna have to learn to count I don’t wanna have the biggest amount I don’t wanna grow up
Well when I see my parents fight I don’t wanna grow up They all go out and drinking all night And I don’t wanna grow up I’d rather stay here in my room Nothin’ out there but sad and gloom I don’t wanna live in a big old tomb On Grand Street
When I see the 5 o’clock news I don’t wanna grow up Comb their hair and shine their shoes I don’t wanna grow up Stay around in my old hometown I don’t wanna put no money down I don’t wanna get me a big old loan Work them fingers to the bone I don’t wanna float a broom Fall in love and get married then boom How the ****** did I get here so soon I don’t wanna grow up
Maybe so believer. I have a month of vacation, and after the refi I'm fixing to use a chunk. If I came down there, you wouldn't chicken out like you did with the last SoCal get-together, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hey GC, if you come to So Cal B and I will help you enjoy the towns. Binder, so sorry about your co-worker and wife. I really feel for the kid. To be alone in the world and just beginning your adult life. How very, very sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Blech. She's baaaaaack. Can't say this is unexpected.
She failed to officially give up her claim on the house as agreed upon. Two months I've waited for her to do it. My refi deadline came and went. She has now started spitting flames. She wants her money. Is threatening to drag me into court. But has not done her part of the bargain, a small, simple task. Thinks I'm dragging my feet, her attorney says. When all the while I've been watching interest rates creep up and waiting, waiting.
Anyway, I believe I've lost the ability to identify my emotions. When I got the call from my lawyer this morning, my heart jumped. It raced while I spoke with her. I don't know what this feeling is called. General anxiety I guess.
Now I'm being told to run like a rabbit. If she'd done her part this would have been finished weeks ago, all leisurely like. Now my lawyer says, "If she takes you to court, she'll be unsuccessful, but she can do it just to make you miserable."
How is it that I sit and try to figure out how I'm the bad guy? I still have nightmares from the guilt I feel over booting her out of my life. But no matter how I try, I can't see anything I've done that was cruel or selfish. For a year, my life often felt unbearable. But somehow I'm the one who can't sleep at night.
And I have 10^6 things to do at work, and pushing this crap over into its own little compartment is currently very, very hard.
How is it that I sit and try to figure out how I'm the bad guy? I still have nightmares from the guilt I feel over booting her out of my life. But no matter how I try, I can't see anything I've done that was cruel or selfish. For a year, my life often felt unbearable. But somehow I'm the one who can't sleep at night.
GC, sparrow is the cruel and selfish one. Now you have to pay higher interest because she could not hold up her end of the bargain. Sorry about having to talk to her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Oh, it's not her I talked to, it's my lawyer, who did say, "Can't you just email her or something?" to which I unfortunately have to respond that no, I can't.
"If she'd done her part this would have been finished weeks ago, all leisurely like. Now my lawyer says, "If she takes you to court, she'll be unsuccessful, but she can do it just to make you miserable.""
Ask your lawyer about the possibility of countersuing her for not holding up her end.
What do you think about it? What does your lawyer suggest your options are?
Counter suits (as 2long suggested) can work but they can cost as much as you get from them. If you could recover the cost of interrest over the projected life of the loan it might be worth it though.
What does your lawyer suggest?
AD, should we invite Graycloud out that same weekend?
What do I think? That this is just silly, unnecessary drama. Another thing that she made happen, and now pitches a fit about. What I'm doing about it is classified.
Apparently she's been calling her attorney every few hours and is mad as a hornet. From what I've heard about her AP, it seems their whole existence uses anger as its fuel.
Well, sadly this is the last little bit of fuel they'll get from me. But I never really gave them much. They've always got most of their energy from hating car4love, and they get to do that for decades.
Well, sadly this is the last little bit of fuel they'll get from me. But I never really gave them much. They've always got most of their energy from hating car4love, and they get to do that for decades.
Oh geez, I hope and pray for car4love to find a really good man for her and her kids. She certainly is a classy woman.
Graycloud - All the best, may you get this behind you as soon as possible.
SLH, No, I don't live there where the marathon picture was taken. That is about 18 miles from my house, higher altitude, really small town - less than 2,000.
My town is in the desert near the red rocks. I live about a half mile from here - Edge of town
SS, I like it when you talk about the happy things you do in your marriage as well. It's important to hear about those things, and I would love it if those here whose marriages are continuing and improving would talk about them more.
Along those lines, I have a question for you. Something that I wonder about is dealing with a work-life balance. You know what I mean. There's a deadline at work -- do you give up family time for it? How much family time? Under what circumstances? How do you know when it's not enough or too much?
Those kinds of things. In my first marriage, I was probably average in terms of noticing when I was neglecting my spouse. I'd like to get better about things like that, and also become better at noticing when my own needs are not being met -- and asking for that to change. I haven't had much practice at that, and it would be good to have someone to mentor me along in how it all works. (I don't suppose Mrs. SS is ever going to come by to greet us, is she?)
Something cool happened today, in a way. I've been nervous, hurt, and angry. I want to figure out what makes these people tick, but I don't expect I can. But I'm not really angry now.
I think maybe I've gotten into a good habit. When I think about her, and wonder about her, I mainly feel sad for her and her family and friends.
I feel sad that she's apparently unhappy. Here she went and did all this stuff to try and get happy, and if it was working, what is there in this situation with the power to make her so angry?
Then again, I haven't actually talked to her. Maybe the rumors of her rage have been exaggerated.
Stick with feeling sad for her, GC. It's a big step toward a compassionate understanding of the damage and harm that's happened for her.
I forgot to answer about where more pics of DD can be found. I put them all up in the album that I linked to before -- there are tons there, from the time that she was brand new up through this month. I recently reorganized the album. If anyone wants to see it, you can find it here .
J, she's just beautiful. My favorites are the Chocolate Makes me a Devil Child picture and her delightful expression when she is drinking her milk. Too sweet.
There's something so inviting about ice-cold milk in a metal cup. She seems to know it too. Just look at that face.
The amazing thing about the chocolate-devil-baby picture is that she didn't get a single bit of chocolate on her cream-colored turtleneck. I still don't know how we managed that.
I like the milk picture, too. I'm not sure that I have a favorite, though I like many of them. Well, hmmm.
There are two that I love from when she was really small. The one with her drinking from a bottle and holding onto someone's pinky. Because she was so tiny, and the expression is so wonderful.
It still makes me very sad that it was OM she was looking at. So much harm woven into that whole thing...
From later on? Well, there are a bunch of them. Some are hilarious, like her with the potty on her head, from last winter, or the devil-baby or the brownies ones.
And some are just lovely, like the beach series from Summer 2005, or the one where she's reflected with dolphins from last spring.
Heck, I kinda like taking pictures of her! I bet you never noticed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
About how things are similar between you, and Binder, and AD, and I.
There is a scripture (describing the creation of the earth,) that says "It is not good that man should be alone."
At that point in the story, women was created to be a partner to man.
I think you, and Binder, and Ad, are all feeling that. It's not one thing, it's a whole bunch of little things. Most of us are vocal about $ex. It's important, it connects us, and we miss that close relationship. It's not the only thing that's important.
We miss what women provide that men do not. Graycloud bangs finger with hammer - Male friend - "You stupid ***** watch what you're doing, you're getting blood all over my new pants. Wife - "Oh Gray, that must hurt, come here and let me bandage it for you."
May be bad example, but you probably understand.
It's hundreds of little things like that that we miss. It's an emotional connection that we don't get from men. Women seem to be able to have an emotional connectionw with other women, but men seldom feel it except with their wife.
All us want that in our life. We crave it. It's hard to describe, and for some, it's difficult to admit, but those feeings are there.
I admit I don't know exactly how you feel, but I examine my feelings, and my desire to be close to my W, and I think I get SOME of it. I'm not feeling the loss, but I am experianceing the other side of it, and trying to understand it. I WOULD NOT want to be without this closeness I feel for her. For you three, the bond is broken, and you want it back. I think that is good. Even after all the bad, all the hurt, all the pain, you know the relationship, the feelings, the closeness, was good, and you want those feelings back.
I think part of it may be that we are often at our best when we give to others - and you need someone to care for, and protect. It's a symbotic relationship, where both benefit, and do better then either could alone.
I wanted to acknowledge your feelings. They are important - YOU are important, even if Sparrow didn't treat you as such. Binder, and AD are important. I hate to see you (all of you) wonder about that. I hate to see you suffer, and I wish it were otherwise.
In most ways you don't doubt yourselves, but in a few you do. All of us do, but it's far worse when the rejections has been so total by one so close. That's the healing that is taking place. It's hard for you to see, it changes only a little each day, but there is progress. It's in the things you say, and the way you do things.
I want to say again, that I belive you will make it. Im not all knowing, and I don't KNOW, but I think you will. It's because of who you are. You are not a failure.
I commend you again for your search. What you seek is worth much effort. Knowing the truth about God is a wonderful thing. The help available is out of this world. Pun intended.
Well.... that's been on my mind, and it feels good to get it said.
AD is flying to see me Friday evening Nov 4th and going home Wed the 9th. You and Binder are welcome to come.
With your home and all, I doubt that you could, but wanted you to know you are WELCOME if you were so inclined. Same for Binder - AD says flights into Las Vegas are cheap now days. (about two hours from where I live.) Binder, it's not even hot now, you would fit right in.
Faithful, I wanted to write you today too. This journey you are on doesn't have to be all work, and no play. I hope you get a a vcation too.
You have too kind a heart to spend much time being sad. I want to see you smile MOST of the time, and know you will be fine. I hope you are near that, or will be soon. Keep working on you, for in the end, that's all we have any control over. Once you get to where you want to be, the rest will come much easier.
If you get out this way, my W and I will buy you lunch too - or fix it for you at home if we're broke that week. LOL.
There is a scripture (describing the creation of the earth,) that says "It is not good that man should be alone."
At that point in the story, women was created to be a partner to man.
I think you, and Binder, and Ad, are all feeling that. It's not one thing, it's a whole bunch of little things. Most of us are vocal about $ex. It's important, it connects us, and we miss that close relationship.
SS, that was very insightful. It made me very sad for some reason. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It made me think of all the reasons I enjoy having a man around. I love the differences between men and women.
SS, I like it when you talk about the happy things you do in your marriage as well. It's important to hear about those things, and I would love it if those here whose marriages are continuing and improving would talk about them more.
Thanks for the feed back. Perhaps there is more that can be done to promote the good side of relationships.
Along those lines, I have a question for you. Something that I wonder about is dealing with a work-life balance. You know what I mean. There's a deadline at work -- do you give up family time for it? How much family time? Under what circumstances? How do you know when it's not enough or too much?
My W has sometimes told others "he is a-work-aholic." It's much better now than it was. There was much to learn, and much room for improvement, but progress has been made.
There are times when work must be done. Please forgive the personal references, but that's what I relate to. I hope it will help some.
We operate a retail camping store. Once a year we take inventory, and count all the stuff - all of it. We prepare a week in advance, working long hours, and we count after the store closes for the evening. It takes most of the night. The next day we are back to reconcile problems, and fix errors. My W helps, and the kids don't see us much that week.
If it were a month, or two months, I would probably do something else. There must be limits.
For me, I can do a night or two a week from time to time if deadlines demand. this is a small company. We loose staff, and need to re-hire, and re-train. We have funerals, weddings, and illness, so we help each other out. It's give and take. If I sub for someone one day, I know he will do it for me another. We get along, and we help each other.
If it were one sided, who would, or could live with it? In other words, if they are flexible for you, when you want/need time off, and help you out other times, then it may work, but if it is not, I would have a hard time with it.
Those kinds of things. In my first marriage, I was probably average in terms of noticing when I was neglecting my spouse. I'd like to get better about things like that, and also become better at noticing when my own needs are not being met -- and asking for that to change.
It works best when there is communication. My W doesn't say "you stayed too long at work." She says, "I missed you, sorry you had to work so long tonight." I hear and I understand, and we grow closer even in the struggles. She is better at it than I. We work on it together.
You won't always catch it in time. You won't always be in a mood that permits safety. Most of the time, but not always. Then you remember - and you apoligize, and you do better next time. I am not mr perfect, this is a work in progress - so we grow....... together.
I haven't had much practice at that, and it would be good to have someone to mentor me along in how it all works. (I don't suppose Mrs. SS is ever going to come by to greet us, is she?)
You learn as you go. It can be really fun when you look back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
When a child is in the school play, you arange in advance to get off work, and you have the understanding that if there is an emergancy, it't too bad, you will leave anyway. IN our case, if there are only two of us here,(slow winter days) and one had an accident and went to the hospital, the other would be stuck. So, there are some things that can stop even the best of intentions.
It's like this story I heard once...... There was a man who was having dinner with his family one night. They were all rushing through dinner, because the family was going to the circus that evening. Everyone was so excited; they had looked forward to this night for a long time.
Just then the telephone rang. The man got up from the dinner table and answered the phone. It was a co-worker at the office. There was a problem at work, and they wanted to know if he could come in to help solve it right away. They really needed him. The man’s wife could tell what was happening, she knew he would probably have to go in to work, and her heart sunk with sadness.
There was a long pause in the conversation, and then the man spoke and said, “I’m sorry, but I just can’t come in tonight. I’ll see you tomorrow, and we’ll see if I can help you with the problem then.” At this the man hung up the phone. The man’s wife looked at her husband longingly and said, “Honey, the circus will come again next year.” And the man replied, “I know, dear, but childhood won’t.”
You keep your eye on your goals.
My goal is to be a Husband, and Father. I work to meet those goals, and provide for my family. I work for my family, my family doesn't support me so I can work.
Stephen Covey in "7 habits" says that "no one on their death bed wishes they had spent more time at the office."
Perhaps the best quote of all comes from my father, who told me "Everyone thinks they will be happy in the future. You can't live that way. You can say that next year, things will be better, or that after we get our house things will better, or after I finish college, or after the kids are gwown, or after I retire...... You just have to be happy now, and If you can't then look at your life, and change what is not working. Life is too short to live that way."
I hope this wasn't more than you were looking for. Mrs SS could do a better job, but she doesn't come round much these days. (All she ever DID do was read.)
The short answer is look at your life, and change what isn't working. It works for me - slowly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS gets stern look on his face, but can't hold it. He breaks out laughing.
I have some thoughts for you too, I hope you don't mind. Lets start this with a smile though. Too often, I get soooo serious.
Every marriage has it's crisis. Or, at least all the ones I know much about have had them. Yours is difficult, but not impossible to overcome.
I said lets smile, because we get in these moods where we are so worried about what will happen, and we forget to laugh and have fun. You are in the middle of what I suggested to J. That is, if something isn't working, change it.
We forget that this isn't the end of our lives, but a new beginning.
We fear, and it holds us back from enjoying the good that the changes can make in our lives. New and better lives from our old ones.
I hope you got Mars/Venus and read it. Havn't seen you comment, or else I missed it if you did. There are lots of little things that can improve your situation. I think it would help you a great deal.
I am not kidding, I see opportunities, and I wish for you two to succeed and be happy. IT's so worth it.
Understnding that you have lots to do as a mother, and wife, I don't think I could trade you places and get anything near done that you get done. Realizing that, I still think you should read M/V. There are things aobut Ti you need to understand.
When you write things like "guess that shows me how much he cares," I laugh. Not that I think the situation is funny, but that you are so much like we were - when our differences kept us apart, instead of bringing us together. I say to myself "Nooooo, plese read M/V, you need to understand what he is REALLY telling you."
I do see lots of hope. Realizing how hard it can be for the paycheck not to be there - please know we pray for your family, and you especially. You hold it together, until your partnership is more fully formed. May it become all that you wish.
Who knows? Maybe sparrow will succeed at forcing me out of the house (seemingly what she wants) and I'll have plenty of money and leisure time. If I lost this place, I doubt I'd get another house right away, though I would look.
Anyway, big success today. Painting the new sill I put in my kitchen window. Replacing a sill - sounds simple, right? Wrong.
Love is a very interesting subject. I read here (MB) about conditional love, and unconditional love. Experts tell us that Love, or what we call love is partly chemical, and partly emotional.
Dr Harley says that many of the problems in marriage - or what we see as problems, happen because we don't feel that "in love" feeling for our spouse. If you are "In Love" you get along better.
I look at this as the feelings you have at first - you can't stand to be apart, you think of the other person way too much, you can't wait to see them again.
I agree with Dr Harley that you can get these feelings again. Not the chemical part, but the emotional element can be with you all the time.
It's been fun, and the rules are what makes it work. 1. Meet each others needs. 2. Spend time together. 3. No love busters.
This is about spending time together. You take the survey, and you find things you both like to do. Then, you do those things. Simple - very simple. Oh, I know it's not always easy, but the concept is simple.
We had some family business to attend to, and decided in advance to make a trip out of coming home. The business finished on a Wed afternoon. We went back to the motel - my W had booked a king suite. Living room, and separate bedroom. She's worth it.
Thursday - we shop, then eat lunch at a Thai place - not bad either. The scenic tour starts on the Nebo Loop. Up a canyon, across the mountain, and down another canyon. Near the bottom there are ranches. The fall colors are beautiful. We discuss what it would be like to own a ranch there, but we don't have any money, so we just laugh about it. Took this one for SLH. Link 1
Then I hunt for some "framed" pictures like this one Link
Wife waits in the car - so I took her photo too. Link 3
The drive was so beautiful. The girl even more so. It's fun to make your W happy. It's fun to be in love. Fun, but maybe that isn't the best word. I don't' know if they make a word for that wonderful feeling- perhaps Love is the closest we can come.
Then down the mountain and she says" Nephi (a town) is only a few miles away, do you want to go out to eat? Yep, I did.
Then we head for the hills and find our camping spot in the dark. This is the west, and some places you can just camp. We drove until we hit a dirt road, and we just camped. Top of a mountain, the stars were out. Cold at night, snuggle in to keep warm. Tent wet with dew when we wake up. Breakfast (still more time together, we both seem to like breakfast.) is simple. Bagels, yogurt, and fruit. Start the tour for that day. Over the mountains, by lakes and streams. Drop into a small town with a mining and railroad museum. Spend way too much time there, but who cares, we aren't on a schedule. We both like that too - the love banks are going up.
Next town has a natural history museum. It's worth seeing too. Link 4
We find a thrift store, and we have a ball shopping for anything we want. Find some classic books for the kids for Christmas. Spend about 20.00 total. Small towns can be fun.
Travel till way after dark and come to a small town. Motel says Vacancy - so we check in. Find small eatery still open. Mmmmmm.
The next morning we start out for Bryce canyon. Take the long way there. The scenic route. this is a section of the highway up a sandstone switch back. Note the motorcycles on the road below. Link 5
It's easy to take good photos at bryce. People on the trail. Link 6
The colors are always so pretty when the light is right. Link 7
Then we drove down to another small town and got a motel again. Small town diners can be good, this was. We walked around town, things were quiet. Cool after dark. Frost on the car in the morning. Living in the hot south west, we don't get frost in Sept, so this is kinda fun. We go to church, the people are friendly. One of the men knows one of my neighbors - sometimes it's a small world.
We leave town after church, and drive over another mountain. Eat lunch in these trees. Link 9
It's cool enough for a jacket. The sun is out, the air smells of pine, and aspen trees. W says we need to do this more often. SS agrees. We laugh - and we are in love. Life is good. SS
Yes, SS, this is what I'm looking for. Tell the stories of your marriage, if Mrs. SS is okay with it. The more of that kind of thing, the better. It's hard to be simple. You understand what I mean, and you work at it.
I'd like it if you shared more of that. It's useful for others of us who are trying to learn to be simple -- and change what doesn't work one step at a time.
Hey, good people, I just realized that I'm feeling so positive about life, that I could spend the night in the other house - at "our" house. For a long time, I felt this huge heaviness being there - but I'm rounding up my camping gear (something padded to sleep on since there is no furniture there), and heading out. I was planning to do some work over there tomorrow anyway.
If I believed in luck I'd say "wish me good luck", I do believe in prayers, but if you feel like praying, pray for some child that still alive under a slab of concrete in Pakistan. Don't waste your prayers on me just now. God is already blessing me.
JustJ…..that’s one beautiful child. One thing about a child, it certainly makes one vulnerable. The emotional investment in those little people cannot be adequately described with my meager vocabulary. Now that I raise two of them I realize how inadequate they make me feel too.
SS, I pondered your description regarding the relationship men have with women and how "It is not good that man should be alone." How a woman can bring a sense of compassion and a safe place to be vulnerable. I’ve felt that, and maybe that is why the pain of infidelity can be so great. The very refuge that was provided; the sanctuary, became the source of my injury. Where could I turn….it upset my whole being and sense of equilibrium. What little innocence I had left was dashed, the whole world looked a little “dirtier”.
Do I miss having a woman around?........Is the pope catholic? Is Helen Reddy? It’s not just sex though (don’t get me wrong, that’s certainly part of it) but even the meals together, the glass of wine, watching some stupid movie. I am not turned off of relationships per se by this ordeal, but I’m sure to be somewhat jaded and more cautious. I also know that I’m no treat to live with too. I have a load of flaws and idiosyncrasies that render me a “challenge”. Sometimes I feel that I would not date any woman that would have me for a companion.
My WW had a complaint about me, certainly the complaints were many and very vocal once she began giving the OM the victory sign with her legs, but this one in particular gave me pause. She said I lacked vulnerability; I didn’t “need” her. I was a self contained unit that didn’t require her in any capacity be it emotional, domestic or otherwise. I knew this complaint likely had some truth to it, but I always felt it more important to “want” someone in spite of not “needing” them. One is a choice which speaks to desire, the other a necessity that speaks to self preservation. Personally I think I’d much rather be the chosen yacht over the obligitory life boat.
I also don’t see myself seeking a “a compassionate understanding of the damage and harm that's happened for her” as I’ve read it eloquently described by JustJ. I don’t intend to be consumed with bitterness and/or vengeance for the rest of my life, but my sense of paternal responsibility for my children overwhelms my compassion. It is a statistically significant fact that children from broken homes are more susceptible to the ills the befall society; promiscuity, delinquency, substance abuse, suicide etc. My children will be the unlucky recipients of a life without an intact family courtesy of their mother’s choices. Certainly if the police knock on my door one day and drop off one of my children, drunk….stoned….or with a court date….I would not be able to articulate a coherent connection to this affair, but it certainly will be in the back of my mind. No, not all children will be so unlucky and some kids from intact families fare far worse than some from broken homes, but there is a significant correlation between the broken home/kid in trouble scenario.
I also admired those photographs SS, I would absolutely love to see that landscape in person. I adore the outdoors and the sense of timelessness that the ancient world gives to us. I get a sense of God when I see the vistas that you captured with your camera and an incredible impression regarding the members of the particular ecosystem and how they “works” together so perfectly. I find it tragic that humans do not have the desire to minimize our impact on such a fragile planet….but I digress.
I would love to join you and AD on your visit and flights to Vegas from here are quite economical. My parenting obligations and my son’s upcoming hockey tournament in Jasper prevent it however. Who knows though….maybe one day.
Glad to hear you’re feeling well AD, that was an uplifting selfless post. I look forward to reading your posts after you return from you holiday with SS. He used to live in my town once upon a time ya know.
GC……house renos……always count on things taking twice as long and costing twice as much. I always know that how difficult a job is, is usually inversely proportional to how easy it looks. Those old houses are worth it to me though. I see so many of these new cookie cutter Mcmansions and I just can’t see how they could be lovable.
Faithful Follower, SLH….hope you are well, here’s wishing you a good weekend.
SS, there's something so peaceful about those purdy places. The ones near you especially, for me at least.
You're a lucky fella aren't you? That's good.
Tonight my brother came over to help me work on the floors some more. My house is so chaotic. I don't like it this way.
There is a chance I'll lose it. The house, I mean. I'm prepared mentally to lose it (the house, I mean), but I've just realized, I don't have a plan for what I'll do if that's how it goes.
People say to me, all the time, "But you've worked so hard. All that work will have been a waste if you lose your house." I don't think that way. Can't.
The other night, my dad was here, and was trying to learn a song on guitar. I stopped him and tried to explain a thing or two about rhythm. He plays okay, but his sense of rhythm is tweaked. As we started, he said, "I can't learn. It's 50 years too late." I called BS on him and continued. He started to get it a little. I made suggestions. We played a little more. I stamped my feet and made time, showed him how to accent both downbeats and upbeats. He started to get it a little more, then yawned and said, "It's 50 years too late." I said, "Dad, I've explained it all, and I know you understand. Just go home and play along with the CD until you get it." He says it's too hard, that they play too fast. How frustrating! So lazy! But at 73 he gets slack.
A former colleague contacted him this week. The guy is bipolar, got in a bunch of trouble in Vegas many years ago, reached out to my father. My folks wired him a few hundred bucks. The reason he got in touch last week was to pay my parents back. It was something like $500. I bet it was 15 years ago they gave him that money. Dad didn't want to accept the repayment, but I suggested that he really ought to. I said I thought turning the money down would hurt his old friend. I think he agreed. Maybe I should have suggested he donate it. I think I'll call him tomorrow and talk about it. I bet you he's already thought of it. I bet you anything. But so if he were to do that, would it be right or wrong for him to tell the guy that he'd donated the money, and to whom? Or would it be better to really use the money himself? I can see both sides, just don't know which is shinier.
I was reading People of the Lie a little tonight. It's hard for me to read it. I hold up my ex next to all the examples, even though I try not to. Reading a book about evil people and then seeing how someone who has hurt you fits into the descriptions therein is not good. It's the natural thing to do, but it feels... subversive.
I'm up because I have timing issues with my floor work. Apply finish. Wait four hours. Do not wait more than six hours, because then it will be screwed up.
Can this really be true? I think I'll risk it and go to sleep.
Binder, I've thought through those same statistics for my own daughter. I recognize that I did everything I could to prevent that shift to a less-than-optimal situation for my daughter.
And I recognize that my ex decided that was not an important enough reason (along with my love and her vows and various other things) to save our marriage.
I know that if my daughter has some of the problems that are common to children of divorce, I'll have some of the same thoughts you might have.
And yet -- how much worse would it be to be the one who chose to create the divorce? How much worse would it be to have that quiet voice in your head whispering, "This is your fault"?
I've known three or four waywards who never reconciled. I know two of them well enough to know of the heartbreak and overwhelming guilt they feel. To the extent that they choose to live with that guilt rather than taking steps to make amends, the heartbreak and guilt are their own choice and perhaps I shouldn't have compassion for someone's self-inflicted pain.
But I do. I think eventually you might figure that out, too. It took me a long time, and I still have trouble with it. It happens, though.
And yet -- how much worse would it be to be the one who chose to create the divorce? How much worse would it be to have that quiet voice in your head whispering, "This is your fault"?
That day may never come. One of the qualities I was attracted to in my wife was her decisiveness. The downside was that if things didn't turn out the way she planned, or the decision bore some obvious flaws, she seemed unable to perform any self examination or introspection to determine if she had any shortcomings that contributed to the less than optimum outcome. I don't see her having any epiphany over the conclusion of this marriage and her role in it. The little voice in her head likely says: “You did what you had to do”. Self criticism seems to be conspicuous in its absence with that girl.
Without any self recognition of her responsibility, it's tough to have any compassion especially with my continuing detachment. As she is still my wife, and as my children continue to suffer for her choices, I feel nothing but disgust and helplessness right now. The weapon is still in her hand and the carnage continues. One day after the A ends, as is inevitable, I may feel something different. She may surprise me with a sense of remorse and maybe than I will feel compassionate towards her, in spite of her impulsiveness and her contribution to the destruction of two families.
There is this common thing - this refusal to look inward. The belief that their choices are not their own decisions, but acts of god. The willful refusal to care, before, during, and after the fact, whether their actions cause harm to anyone.
When I think about my ex's past, I see painful things that might have unfortunately contributed to her later actions, and I see long-held attitudes consistent with her later actions.
But truthfully, I see mostly consistency, and not in a good way. The desire to remain a child in a happy world where nobody fights or complains. Actions that are not the result of conscious consideration. A dismissive attitude toward fighting for life - a withering surrender to the power of death. The motivation not to be good for its own sake, but only to be viewed as good. The stubborn refusal to consider the consequences others experience from your own actions. And no interest in the care and feeding of one's own spirit.
She'd probably sputter and roll her eyes if she read this.
I still love her, but I think she's a pretty bad person I'm afraid, and I wish that it wasn't true. I didn't see it before. And maybe I'm cooking the books on it now. But some things in my memory of her have come into relief in the last year.
My friend knows I like rocks, and I've told him I'd like to take a truck out in the country and gather (with permission) a bunch from a farmer's rockpile sometime, use them in my landscaping.
He took his girlfriend to meet his mother today, and they stopped off somewhere and collected rocks for me and left them in a pile in my yard. I'm talking about good-sized stones here, not little pieces of gravel.
That's the kind of people I want to know. It blows my mind. These two stopping somewhere and gathering rocks, for me. It blows my mind.
We've had some major friendship shifts over the last few years. Mostly because of just what you said - I want to be around people who are kind, giving, loving, compassionate people. I no longer require justification for being or doing anything...and I'm not really interested in enabling others...so the people in my life who were there for that reason, are no longer there. I still care for them - but I just can't take the whining, complaining and general state of misery with absolutely NO intent to change it. We had another set of 'friends' who were truthfully good friends at one time. However - there seemed to be no interest in forgiveness towards me - and I eventually got tired of being treated like a piece of scum. My H got tired of seeing me sad and deflated every time we got back from visiting with them. We just decided as a couple to quit hanging out with them. It's been a great decision - because we've found some FABULOUS friends out there who take us as we are.
We like rocks too! I surrounded all my flower patches with rocks - but we couldn't find them for free, I had to buy mine!
Hope, It's good to see you again. I think about you guys from time to time, and wonder how you are.
Wonder about lots of things - What you did with the business, how son is. Wonder about your learning curve, and his.
We have a good friend whose W had an A. We love to do things with them. It means so much to us that she made it back. We try to offer support, not hold it against her. I can't see any happiness in continuing an ongoing relationship with people that treat us badly. Glad you are changing things.
I can't believe there are really places where you have to buy rocks. Is this true? Where I live, you might have to buy dirt, but rocks are free.
My roommate is trying to move in and I'm not ready, but I told him he could get started, and he went to my house, and I hadn't finished vacuuming the floor in his part of the house, so he left his bed and dresser in my dining room.
Sparrow is breathing down my neck. I have to see my mortgage guy at 8 A.M.
I'm exhausted from working on the house. I went from Thursday night to Sunday night, hardly stopping.
I have a real, honest-to-goodness, unchangeable (guy traveling from far away) work deadline tomorrow afternoon, so I'm at work now trying to finish the project, since I won't be in tomorrow morning, and I was tied up last week.
After I'm done I have to get all my financials in order for my meeting.
Boo hoo. I won't be home for hours, and it's almost midnight.
I do believe I'm what you call "in the weeds" at the moment.
I am definitely taking a vacation in a few weeks, assuming I survive that long and still have a house when I get there...
GC, I'm sorry. But I must say, you don't sound overwhelmed yet. You're tenacious as heck and I wonder if you're just superman or something.
FF, how are your babies? I've not been reading many posts aside from here so I apologize if I've missed updates.
SS, I'm not ignoring you, just trying to formulate an articulate answer. (BTW, library didn't have the correct "Mars & Venus" -- did you know there are 15 or so different copies? Mars & Veus for parents, Mars & Venus for Singles, etc? Of course they had all of those! LOL)
Binder, you are so well spoken. I've met many people as you've described (probably been like that to some degree myself at one time) and I've never been able to fully explain away why the absurdity of their commendable qualities and their fatal faults is so dang attractive sometimes. But you did a pretty good job of doing so.
My friend is leaving for Minnesota today amongst much hoorah and fanfare. I'm pretty bummed because I'm gonna miss the heck out of him, and I wanted to go, too, with the group going up there to wish him well. But Ti flew out last night for AL, interviewing for that job. Maybe I'll go up in a few months -- everyone's already planning that, too. Guess we'll see. Ti's actually thinking about coming too, provided we're not even further across the country. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
It's now, FF. Thank you so much for asking! Ti went in at 8:30 and is supposed to be in meetings most of the day. Later this afternoon, he has free rein with the rental car and so will be checking out the area. AD was really sweet about sending me links and such.
We still haven't been paid his last paycheck (was due the 5th) and it's plain to see the company he is now working for is going under. Laughing, I can say "Pesky Hurricanes" but they really were our downfall.
SLH, I can't help but think a change of venue might actually be helpful. I wouldn't assume it will, 'cause you still have to make sure your family's priorities come to a better balance in the new place, right?
The new place itself never fixes anything, but the explosion that happens when you relocate is an opportunity, no doubt.
SLH, It's good to see Ti going to interviews. It's good to see you looking up. Do the girls "get" this. Are they still doing well when their mom worries? Should I tease you about something and make you laugh?
Gray, Superman is a good description of you. Superman never did quite think he was as good as others thought he was, but they were usually right, not him.
Ha, Ha, Ha, you just have to take what you can get on this thread, even if people beat up on you. I still believe you are better than you think.
Faithful, GOOD MORNING !
J, Things are going well? You sound like you are looking at changing some things - or deciding if they need changing.
Juat in a holding pattern 'tis all. I am working slowly on detaching and letting go of my need to control. In doings so I don't fly off the handle anymore so life at home is much more enjoyable.
This morning I missed an appointment, because not actually being superman, and requiring more than 3 hours' sleep, I slept through my alarm. I woke up and frantically called the person to apologize and reschedule. I made no excuse. He was very cool about it, and I'm going to see him shortly.
But afterward, I had this feeling of wanting to apologize MORE, or make up for my mistake, or something.
And it occurred to me that this would actually be kind of sick and vain, to remain obsessed about something for which I'd already apologized, and which was forgiven.
GC, I have been the same way in the past and now recognize the behavior as codependent. Let it go...your apology was accepted. Darn and all this time we thought you were Superman! LOL
And it occurred to me that this would actually be kind of sick and vain, to remain obsessed about something for which I'd already apologized, and which was forgiven.
Is there a name for this condition?
it's called remorse. I think it's good for you. It means that one accepts that they did something wrong, and that just saying "I'm sorry" often isn't enough. It causes people to try to make ammenmds for what they did - when such is possible. It prevents similar things from happening again - or happening often.
It means you care about other peoples time, and about doing what you say you will do.
Head swelling
Temporary condition, won't last long.
Look, all of us have good/bad sides. All of us make mistakes, all of us have problems. What we want you to understand is that you are OK - it's not your fault. Notice that my W hasn't left me. It's not because she never thought about it. It's because she has enough integrity to stay and work through our problems. Sadly, this wasn't about you, it was about her, and yes, she is lacking.
When you read a book that describes someone to a "T", how can you not see that it fits them.
FF, I can't see you flying off the handle, really. Nah-Uh.
SS, your tidbits about how your marriage and life weren't always like this are heartening to me. Not that I am happy you've ever experienced problems, but happy that you can learn and share your solutions with us.
Ti's interview went well, he says. But the interviewers were concerned that he will become bored at this particular job after having to wear so many hats at his other jobs and having advanced so quickly (if only the paychecks ever reflected that!). It's funny because his resume is on my desktop where I can forward it as need be and is titled "Superman on Paper" which is a pretty adequate description of everything the man's done. So now it's down to he and three other guys in a huge company that encompasses all lines of work around the world.
He does have other interviews lined up, no matter what.
When I asked him at first how he did during the interview, he sighs,"There is no way these people are going to hire me".
I made the appropriate soothing noises and then asked what happened. So he says, "Well, I had I came back to the airport to change clothes, because I had alrady checked out of the hotel room. It was then that I noticed my fly was unzipped." !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm good SS. Piles and piles of stress. I manage it okay though. Cursing helps. I love calling inanimate objects (like my shop-vac) filthy names. Yeah, the shop-vac gets a lot of it. I have a real love/hate relationship with that thing.
Good........... and piles of stress don't go together very well. Do they?
I confess I call things names too.
Just the other day, my ladder almost dumped me on the garage floor, and I said "You elbow, don't ever try that again." I may have hurt it's feelings, but I don't even care.
What did the shop vac do to you?
SLH said: I made the appropriate soothing noises and then asked what happened.
It looks to me like you DO understand. At least some things. LOL.
Our shop vac lives with us in the comfort and luxury of our living room right now. Not the damp, dank, humid garage! Every time I put it away, I have to get it right back out again for something else (kids!). So I trip over it at every turn, fighting to come up with more constructive cursing, like "Crusty Green Barnacles" or "Fishflakes!". "Barnacles" is my favorite because if you utter it with just the right inflection, it can sound ominous and downright obscene without incurring permanant shock from your kids.
I've been watching too much Spongebob with the kids. ___________________________
I think I've picked up some work marketing and campaigning a horse down here. For those of you who aren't drowning in the Arabian Horse World, stallions are all about marketing. That's where they pick up their astronomical stud fees (well, that and showing). A sweet lady I was introduced to last week was impressed with my photos and ideas and wants to get my input on things. This could be a nice little treat for us financially.
Stud fees on a well-known horse can easily be $3,500 and more. An eye-catching layout & design in a glossy horse magazine can accomplish that. I'm excited about maybe getting my name out there a bit more.
Stud fees on a well-known horse can easily be $3,500 and more. An eye-catching layout & design in a glossy horse magazine can accomplish that. I'm excited about maybe getting my name out there a bit more.
I've been ruined and disillusioned SLH.....forevermore when I read your posts, I will simple see.......horse-pimp.
I've been ruined and disillusioned SLH.....forevermore when I read your posts, I will simple see.......horse-pimp.
LOLOLOL.
That's right, Binder. . . and a high-rent one to boot!
Imagine this stud as a centerfold on the famed glossy pages of Arabian Horse Times (yes, they have "Horse Centerfolds" *big grin*). . . ah, yes, I am making a name for myself. Shameless, aren't I?
Giggle. Let's not even mention that I spent last week clipping and shaving a horse for a 14 year old girl to show. . . and then we pulled out Clairol Nice 'N Easy in Blue-Black to dye this horse's mane and tail back from it's sun-bleached red. She looked good, too.
Sssssssssshhhhhhhh, Faithful. . . :: glancing around furtively :: Robby may hear you and proclaim an edict regarding a change of my employment. There are some. . . unsavory. . . chores that we as horse owners have to attend to that would make mere mortal's hair stand on end. I don't think I could take *those* jokes! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
FF, I was thinking about you this morning around 3:30 AM -- if GC is Superman, you are SURELY Wonder Woman.
Ready to don those boots and golden armbands? There's your Halloween costume! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
LOL.
Woo-hoo! We finally got paid today so I am going to get some groceries. I'm laughing because Ti's next paycheck is supposed to be in 2 days, on the 20th. . . wonder if they'll be able to cover it, too. Ouch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
It's interesting to hear you talking about Superman...
My pastor preached about Superman last Sunday.
Here's the short version :
"Superman, rah rah", [all that good stuff] "It's a bird..." etc. (For ten full minutes!
"Everybody wants to be superman!", preacher finally boldly proclaims.
"But...", he continues in quieter tones, "... nobody wants to be Clark Kent".
<we listen in puzzled silence>
"But...", he continues, "The meek will inherit the earth."
So, which would you rather be?
"meek, I guess", we answered meekly, "like Clark Kent."
... and since this was a sermon, it should come back to ...
... and "like Jesus too."
Really, I thought he spent a full 10 minutes talking about how great Superman was and I was wondering if he had lost his mind (or his place in his notes), but he got there... eventually.
I don't know, AD. I think Superman was meek, not in the classic "timid" sense, but more in the unprepossessing way.
What exactly is humility? Failure to boast? Desire to serve? Lack of Arrogance? Being approachable?
I think Superman seemed like a pretty humble guy, when it comes down to it. He was deferential and self-effacing, modest and downright diffident at times. He strove for the best and yet he never especially sought to take credit for his actions. Of course, there is always the iconic image we call up in our conciousness whenever we remember Superman -- head held high, chest thrust outward, hands resting masculinely on hips, surveying the terrain of the delivered with a benovolent eye. And yet (to me) this doesn't necessarily mean he was arrogant or swaggering. Just basking in the glow of a job well done. Briefly, until he's forced to face Luther again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
(And I recall a couple of pivotal scenes where even Clark Kent seemed downright decisive. Women love that stuff. Clark never repulsed me for sure.)
Gray, if you come up with that recipe, would you send it along? My kids and H love root beer. I'm more of a cherry-pepsi girl myself, but it sounds good. . . or maybe a cherry-pepsi cheesecake would work too if i subbed it for the RB, lol!
AD, thanks so much for those links. Ti made it to Decataur around 9:00 PM Sunday and had to leave immediately after his interview -- he was supposed to have lots of time to check out the area on Sunday, but his flight was put off three times before they shuttled him to another airport here in Houston to fly on another carrier, and instead of having half a day to drive around and see AL, he just made it in time to eat dinner and prepare for the interview the next day.
He never did go on the WA interview (just had a limited interview with them on the phone), but today they gave him a job offer anyhow. It's a bit less than he's making now so moving to a place where it's even MORE expensive to live doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Guess we'll see.
Hope everyone is well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad everything went smoothly with Ti's interviews. Any job offer is better than none, but if you can delay a bit, he might find something better.
When I was out of work, I applied for a job which would have made $27K less than the one I actually ended up with - and I would have taken it if they had offered it to me, but fortunatly, somebody else got it. That would have taken my life in a quite different direction.
I wish we could delay it, AD. But they only gave him 3 days to respond. Neither of us have ever been to WA state (remember, they hired him over the phone, never flew him up there to meet him) and so we are kinda flying blind right now. The benefits are TONS better and (to me) worth the difference in pay. But have you heard how much a house costs up there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I keep hoping ALA will send him an offer. Guess we'll see.
FF, the job's in the Seattle area, where houses (even ones way out) go for two and a half times what mine cost now, and they are older and less square feet to boot. I could barely even find rentals for what we are paying in a house note now. I've been through 2 real estate search engines; perhaps I just need a new one?
What are you doing this weekend? Weekends are always downers at my house.
Got everything crossed for ya, GC. Just make sure you tell when to uncross!
SLH, going to a friend's house on Sat. late afternoon for a family event for our church. Kids will wear their costumes too. Other than that just trying to continue on the path of organizing my home. It is a disaster!
Hmmm...I didn't know Seattle was expensive. Of course compared to California everything else looks reasonable! Can you imagine 560,000.00 for 2 bed 1 bath house?
My gosh, FF! Are all the houses there that much? Was yours?
I think overall house prices in the W-NW are just higher in general. We knew that, but we also expected this company's offer to be higher. Now having talked to other employees of this company in that area, we find out his offer was higher than what some of them are getting. How do they survive out there? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
The cheapest house I found in the Seattle area was a 960 sf home built in 1927 for $250,000. And that's still more than we paid for this house, albeit the taxes are probably lower.
5 people trying to fit in 960 sf? Did it for a while in an apartment before we bought this house. Scary! I'd like to keep looking, please!
I am just so reluctant to jump from the frying pan into the fire with regards to bills, expenses and such. Guess I should be looking in other cities now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
SLH, when we bought our house 3 years ago it was a step up into a bit better neighborhood and a little bigger house with a much bigger lot. We bought it from the nephew of a friend that had passed so he sold it to us for about 50k less than the market at the time as is. We have since added about 500 sq feet on to the house. It started as 3 bedrooms (one very tiny w/no closet) and 1 bath and a very large basement. older Ds lives in a somewhat finished part of the basement. We converted W's room to a handicapped bathroom, then added a bedroom for him and an upstairs bedroom/bath for a future caregiver. The house is now worth close 900k. Even without the addition it would go for 600k. It is sickening really. I think only about 24% of californians can afford to buy a home these days.
SLH, I suggest getting to know the place before you buy a house if you can. Even though moving twice reeks.
Maybe SiS or FIM can give you some tips.
GC
Or Appy. I think he's in WA.
FF is right. Prices around here are bark stonkers. We bought our house as a foreclosure in '97 for 290K. Previous owners paid 625K for it. There's an UGLY duplex across the street from us with a current asking price of 700K. No lot to speak of, garage door is right on the sidewalk. Allegedly 2200 sf. Less than half ours, and our lot's a half acre. Plus, we've got a 3-car garage with a one bdrm apt on top, and a "carriage shed" at the bottom of the hill. Last time I checked, even without finishing all the rebuilding, we were easily over 1.5M.
If we had 2 buy something now, we couldn't afford 2 buy anything bigger than one of those Rubbermaid tool sheds you see at Home Despot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
If we had 2 buy something now, we couldn't afford 2 buy anything bigger than one of those Rubbermaid tool sheds you see at Home Despot.
I'd laugh if it weren't so true! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> You have a fabulous place because it is historic. There is a place around the block from us that used to be a winery up for sale. They want just under 1.2M for it. 3000 sq ft, 6 bedrooms 4 bathrooms, pool/spa, 2000 sq ft basement but NO YARD. Totally only pool fits in the yard. I figure about 200k to fix it up too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Say 2long, there's an idea. I know of a lot for sale very close to one of the Mpls. lakes. If I lost my house, I could afford the lot and a shed I think.
Scrambling now. I have the rest of today, Sat., and Sun., and I have to be ready for the appraiser. Yikes.
Ap has been really great about reccomending realtors and areas to look into (Thanks, Appy, if you're lurking!). Otherwise I would have written the place of totally.
He also said the median home value reported recently in the papers is $350K, easy.
Ouch.
I just don't see how anyone can live up there if the medium household income is $49,372 annually. Boggles the mind.
{included the link in case anyone wants to look up their respective cities, etc}
Now that I think about it, that average home price isn't too far off the median home value here.
Hoping for the best for you, GC. Please let us know how it goes -- and take pics, if you can.
Cool, I could spend all day looking at those stats. If you look up Los Angeles you will see the median income is lower than Seattle but the housing is higher.
I looked at that CNN link. You have to remember Seattle is only about 30%, of the urban area here (the actual core urban area in fact). If you look at the burbs, say Kent or Renton or Tacoma, South of Seattle proper, the numbers are much easier to digest. Bellevue and Mercer Island, OTOH, are Seattle’s answer to Beverly Hills and Bel air.
Seattle is a nice city. But, there are only a few neighborhoods that I would want to live in inside the city limits now. Rural King county is much nicer.
You could keep horses, SLH. Minimum lot sizes to control sprawl are an acre, now; which is one reason prices went up so fast a couple of years ago.
But depending on where you work, the commute can be a bear. Mine is 15 minutes, tops.
But I hear tell that you guys don't tan, you rust! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
At my W's OOSP, you can still get a decent house for well under $100K. She paid $500/acre for the first 31 acres for her site 6 miles out of town, in the flats. Next 17 cost more like $1100, though. ...but no water rights.
I wouldn't live in Seattle again if you gave me all the caffeine at Starbucks. And I would need it.
If you -are- going to live in that area, I really agree that you shouldn't buy until you're out there. Go find a little apartment for three months and scope out the area, then figure out what to buy and where. You don't want to buy in SeaTac only to find that Ti will be working in Lynnwood.
Me? I want to catch a flight to Ohio tonight. Or just point my car in that direction and drive. Whimper.
I hope Ti get's an offer down here too. Could he call and 'splain the situation to the AL guys - to see if there is something in the works maybe speed it up a bit?
Hey kids. My (almost) roomie's girlfriend invited me to her uncle's house for dinner tonight. She made duck confit that she recently brought back from Fronce. I think I might have been the only one who realized I was eating something special. I'm very impressed with this girl. Not because of the confit, just 'cause she appears to be an exceptionally good person.
When you eat confit, you have to be very mindful. Drink of wine, bite of confit, drink of wine, bite of confit.
So forgive me for being BOMBED.
It was my first evening in a long time where I didn't kill myself on the house and collapse in exhaustion.
My house is almost ready for appraisal. I just hope my ex doesn't take me to court. She'll make an [censored] of herself if she does, I'm afraid.
Game on. I should hear on my refi this week.
I hope everyone's groovy. As you can see, I'm no good to anyone at the moment. Glug, glug.
At dinner tonight my friend's GF who I will call Giraffe said something about a girl she knows, made me think she wants to do a fix-up. Anyway...
Like SS and Binder were saying not so long ago, a man who knows better does not want to be alone. And let me tell you, being a man with nobody to care for is certainly peculiar.
But not as strange I think as having your beloved sh*t on you. Good god, how does anyone ever do that to anyone? I'm lucky to be immunized. Don't bother doubting that I am. I'd rather die than hurt someone that way.
A drought of affection and intimacy is peculiar, no doubt.
But these ain't things I'm miserably deprived of. Just things I look forward to.
Giraffe is his actual girlfriend. Ms. Unrequited, who I have never met, put my roomie in a sort of plan B. Except there's nothing he could do to get out, with the possible exception of falling in love with her and moving back in.
July? Pshaw! Heck, no! The temperatures here finally dropped enough for us to be able to go outside for any extended length of time. I even slept with my windows open last night (Ti groaning the whole time about how damp everything would be when we woke up). It was delightful.
I tried putting on my jeans for the first time and realized they are really . . . snug. Depression has allowed me to become an oinker in the worst sense of the word. Back to the gym.
Is weaver still here? I've been wondering where she was. I CANNOT keep up with all these places; t&ls feminine stuff, idville, and greys. Is this where all the cool kids hang?
really weaver, been thinking about you! Hope all is well.
"The sun was setting, throwing a fog-like dusk across the stream and trees, and there was a coolness in the air. It was time, I knew, to be getting back to camp. But I did not want to move. For I had the feeling that this was a place, once seen, that could not be seen again. If I left and then came back, it would not be the same; no matter how many times I might return to this particular spot the place and feeling would never be the same, something would be lost or something would be added, and there never would exist again, through all eternity, all the integrated factors that made it what it was in this magic moment."
I'm climbing into my "anguished graycloud" costume.
But first I'll give a holla to weaver 'cause I like her and she's a rarity. And I need her address 'cause I lost it.
Oh, and FAR - I'm very curious about that thing I posted about.
Okay. So. Let me see.
Today things took a huuuuge step forward in the direction of me owning my house.
And I was outside, because I had some private phone conversations, and it was a beautiful day, so I sat outside behind the lab and thought a little. And along the way, I had that inclination again, that urge to reach out to my ex. It did lead to this terrible anguish. I won't explain much. No "baby please don't go" nonsense. Please. That's long gone. A more generous feeling, is what it is. But it's also a real load which I'm fixin' to carry a while longer still. I know so. My dreams are full of it.
Anyway, I fret and complain about it, but I am willing to bear the heavy burden, even if there's nowhere to put it. As predicted, I asked for help from elsewhere, even if I don't believe in it. I asked for help because caring about my ex is unavoidable and hurts a lot.
So I got home from band rehearsal, and my new roomie - he needs a nickname. Call him Jayne - he's a little like Jayne from "Firefly" - Jayne and the Giraffe are here. They came downstairs and we hung out for a while. The Giraffe is an excellent girl. I hope they stay together. So this is Jayne's first time actually staying here, except for once when Ms. Unrequited was making things rough and Jayne slept on my couch.
So I have a roommate now. Makes me less free to just pick up my guitar and HOWL, but it's a good thing, and hopefully we won't fight too much.
Wow. Did I lose my point. Never mind then. Night John Boy.
Wow. Did I lose my point. Never mind then. Night John Boy.
Did you ever! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I thought you were really going somewhere with that, and then I got to the end and it was like, "what, what????". J/K <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Glad you now have a roomie Gray. You think way too much and now maybe you won't have so much alone time on your hands to do that. (I do it too)
I have a new addy which can be posted (my names not in it) -
Hi Weaver! ***waving and blowing kisses*** Thank you again for all your time and help. I will always appreciate the time you, WAT, Mimi, LM, and the others took to help me.
I'd gush longer, but my mom just called to say that Grandpa's ID is missing, and they're all supposed to leave for the airport in an hour. Figures. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Hey 2long, glad you are here. I went away for awhile this summer and when I came back, you were gone. I have been sporadicly (word/sp?) lurking and Here Everybody is!
I mean it seemed as if all the "old" ones were gone, except a few in Iville. I should come check out the fire more often!
Yeah, gc, I think I know what you mean about the "anguished gc" costume. And asking for help...but that is why I come here. Funny how we get help from the strangest places,and "strangers". And it is all unavoidable and does hurt a lot. Too much pain in the world. I get so mad that there has to be a place like this...That is one of the reasons I left for awhile.
Well, now I want weaving lessons from weaver. I really NEED that parachute.
I have come to some conclusions (well, it won't really ever be "Concluded") in the last few days. I went back and read some of my old posts and thought, "Whew, i gotta do something". This has been going on way too long!
It seems as if I go through these "funks" every 3-6 months, or during med changes anyway (1/2 joking). And I get way down and then jump up and Yell (figuratively) "Hey Let's fix this and NOW. Let's DO SOMETHING!" So here i am at the yelling point and deciding that it really is time to do something to "conclude" this whole mess. I don't mean divorce (yet), but you know, "poop or get off the pot"! And H has to get on board. S Harley said that. That H has to get onboard. Well, the boat's gonna leave without H, if he doesn't get going. Can't wait for him to finish that poop forever. In life, we should only take so much time for bathroom breaks. I learned to go real fast when i was pregnant. Time's awasting and that's just wasted time.
whoops, took off on that ramble. IT's that babbling incessantly gene. My DD has it and it's cute on the young. Just makes us not-youngs look older. And senile.
jls
Anyway, glad you are all here. Hanging out at the fire. Keep it going, the nights are getting cold here. Frost last night.
Well I was just getting comfortable with my little funks, and then my ex's lawyer sent a nasty letter to tell me I'm getting hauled into court. Typical lawyery bluster that doesn't scare me, just makes me feel like he!!.
ooooohh GC, I HATE court! and I know a bunch of lawyers (bartend near court buiding) and bluster is RIGHT!
I HATE that court is supposed to be "justice" and it so often is not! I HATE that little people like your ex use the system and sometimes use it well...therefore no justice!
I hated it when my D15's biodad acted like it was such an injustice to him, when I took HIM to court,after 10 years, to raise child support. I hated that he LIED on LEGAL DOCUMENTS and that it surprised me and that I get so MAD about that. I just don't get it, not THAT stuff....
I'm climbing into my "anguished graycloud" costume.
You were already in it, this is just so we understand. I would like to thank you for sharing your heart with us. So often, people hide their feelings. So often, it's because no one cares. It is a big compliment to us that you share.
Often I read, and I know you will be OK, so I don't comment. That's (often) a mans way. GIRLS usually comment, so as to help a person get through their pain. It's one of the reasons we like to be with GIRLS.
This time, I wanted to comment, you are worth it. We all need to know it.
Today things took a huuuuge step forward in the direction of me owning my house.
Good. I am very glad to hear that. Really glad. You need some peace of mind. I hope the rest is resolved to your satisfaction. Soon.
And I was outside, because I had some private phone conversations, and it was a beautiful day, so I sat outside behind the lab and thought a little. And along the way, I had that inclination again, that urge to reach out to my ex. It did lead to this terrible anguish.
I have thought about this more than once as you have commented along these lines. Reaching out is good if the person you reach out to is repentant. If they are not, it hurts YOU, and it sometimes fuels their sense of entitlement. I don't know her at all. It could also ease some of her pain if you said things like "It's OK, I'll be alright." You will, but.......... she needs some pain before she can really heal, and I don't think she has felt that yet. Realize I am talking without really knowing her.
I won't explain much. No "baby please don't go" nonsense. Please. That's long gone. A more generous feeling, is what it is. But it's also a real load which I'm fixin' to carry a while longer still. I know so. My dreams are full of it.
Do you understand where this is coming from? What it is? why you might be feeling it?
Anyway, I fret and complain about it, but I am willing to bear the heavy burden, even if there's nowhere to put it.
I am wondering if this might be the way to an answer for you. If the door might be open just a crack.
As predicted, I asked for help from elsewhere, even if I don't believe in it. I asked for help because caring about my ex is unavoidable and hurts a lot.
Every thing can be proven by testing - or expermenting. If you pray, and God answers, you don't wonder, you know. Usually it comes bit by bit. Little by little. You can look this up - and you can test it to see if it's true. Matthew 11:28 through 30. Don't be afraid to ask in plain words. Voice your doubts too, and ask for help with the weight.
So I have a roommate now. Makes me less free to just pick up my guitar and HOWL, but it's a good thing, and hopefully we won't fight too much.
Wow. Did I lose my point. Never mind then. Night John Boy.
To me, you didn't loose your point. You talked about something that is close, and personal. You didn't know how to voice all your thoughts. It's hard to even sort them out in your mind. Your mind went on to something else, but it will go back to this. It's in your dreams, that's pretty basic.
I know you are not afraid of it. Few have shown themselves to be as brave as you. It's hard to deal with things we don't understand.
AD and I can still use company. His flight arrives the night of Nov 4th. Not much expense other than the flight.
I still want to know about your new stuff at work. Sometimes you are too modest. But then, if I think about it, I am curious about something that is really not mine to ask about. Sorry. I am a very curious person, I think it's interresting.
Gray, you are better than you sometimes think. I suppose that is true for most of us.
It's your dreams that should guide your future, not your doubts. May it be so.
Now SS, you better not make me cry. I'm a man, and my eyes have already produced that salty discharge once today, while I listened to the mothers of war dead tell their stories on the radio. Guess that's one thing I've got out of this. Before I knew what loss really felt like, I'd hear stories like that, and my sympathy was abstract. Now it just knocks me on my butt.
Quote
My dreams are full of it.
Do you understand where this is coming from? What it is? why you might be feeling it?
I don't understand. I've done everything I know to let my ex go. The dreams are all similar. I try to reach out somehow, and instead of showing any remorse or any desire to hear about my experience, she tells me I never had any right to be so badly hurt by what she did. I become frustrated and angry. I call her nasty names, or beat her up, and then wake up relieved.
But so those are the dreams, SS. Don't know what to do about them, if anything.
On a practical level, I probably should fire my lawyer.
Well I am going to go a little bit further then SS has with this because it has been bothering me for a long time. I didn't want to touch it here again, but I thought about you a lot today and I just can't seem to hold it in any longer.
I know the answer Gray. I have iron clad proof that it is the way, and the only way. I am the proof, and I see it all around me now.
I will risk the flack from those on this board who believe that repentence must come before forgiveness, but they have it bassackward. Forgiveness must come first.
When you forgive someone, you become free Gray, free to forgive yourself, free to feel inner peace and free to look through the eyes of God at those who you harbor a grievance against. God sees all his children as innocent and wants us to as well, because that is the only way we can all find our way back to God's love. Through our innocence.
When you understand that she did not do this TO you, that she is simply another lost child of God trying to find her way, then you can begin the process of forgiveness.
For me I had to ask God to help me find a way to forgive, and I found one. And through these studies I have found so much more, I have found God again and my heart sings with love now. Almost overflows with it, as it did when I was a little girl.
I then asked the holy spirit to take my forgiveness and give it to my ex, and I know that the holy spirit will hold it safely until my ex is ready to receive it and then he will have peace too. For him of course he will have to bottom out first, as did I when he left and took my island property this spring.
I visualized myself hugging my ex and asking him to forgive me for all the many ways that I hurt him (if only in my thoughts), and offered my forgiveness to him and told him I understand why he did what he did, and that I know he did not set out to hurt me.
I have peace now Gray, and I practice forgiveness every chance I get.
We are so connected to each other that when we harbor a resentment for someone who has harmed us (perceived or otherwise) it hurts us, as if we had done it to ourselves.
I no longer want my ex back or to ever see him again really, but I do want to be free and filled with peace & love...and I am.
It's a process though Gray, and for me it took asking for help in forgiving many, many days before it hit me like a ton of bricks.
A very good book to read is called "Forgivess and Jesus" by Kenneth Wapnick PhD
Forgiveness is the ONLY way to inner peace and healing.
Weaver, I don't really disagree with you because I have worked on forgiveness for those that have never asked. In fact, I NEED to find a way to forgive my MIL before the hatred eats away at me.
GC, I see you wanting to learn about prayer, God or something. Any questions you want to ask or do you want books to read?
I'm a person who looks at the details. In Christianity, the details are a dreadful mess. And when someone says, "Oh, don't worry your pretty little head about all that," well that does not cut it.
I have a developing belief. But I don't know what to call it. No, I'm not making up a religion.
A clear code of ethics exists in nature. It's something that with some effort and the right language I believe we could explain as a purely rational truth, almost provable mathematically. Accepting this does not require, nor does it conflict with, a belief in the supernatural. It's right there in front of our noses, plain as day.
Attempts to "prove" the existence of a creator are bound to fail and are fundamentally pointless.
Sorry, badly articulated. I tried. There's more. But I have to stop.
On a practical level, I probably should fire my lawyer.
From what I have seen, good ones try to work things out before court whenever that can be done, but if you have to go to court, they understand war, and the fight the fight.
It's hard to know if you have a good or bad one........ for a while. Do you know by now?
Everything AD wrote about me on his thread is true.
Refusing contact with my XW has put me in a terrible bind. The cost of being insulated from her is equal to the safety it provides. The situation hurts me and causes me to hurt her. I don't want to be stubborn, but stubborn is what I have become.
I've been thinking about a lot of similar [censored] lately, myself. This morning, I woke 2 a weird dream about my relationship, and imaginary As that never happened, with projected outcomes that won't either. What a waste! I don't even remember the details of the dream, and thankfully I've got a deadline at work 2day, so it's not something I SHOULD dwell on, even if I could or wanted 2.
I've been thinking about forgiveness. I know so little about it, though at various times in the past 4 years I've believed I have known, or that I have forgiven even.
Spacecase once told me that the most life-changing thing he did after d-day was 2 take a radical forgiveness course. So much of what I've read about RF, though, has seemed a bit "out there" for my perceptions of my sensibilities, but a lot of it makes sense in a fundamental way.
From quotes from Colin Tipping, on iloveulovedotcom:
"Not so long ago, if one even mentioned the word forgiveness in victimized company you would see eyes glaze over. Forgiveness was not cool. On the other hand, laying blame and getting even was very cool. This is not surprising since forgiveness has been universally unpopular for eons. It has been seen to be beyond the reach of ordinary folk.
The reason it is so difficult and takes so long to achieve is that there is an inherent conflict in the notion of traditional forgiveness. In trying to forgive the willful perpetrator of what we see as a crime against us, the desire to forgive is in direct opposition to our need to condemn. Add to this the fact that the desire to forgive is an abstraction while the crime is (on the face of it anyway), an indisputable fact, and you will understand why forgiveness seldom prevails.
There is also the question of degree. The more you were hurt or damaged, the more the scales will naturally tip towards the need to condemn. Years of therapy will help of course, but so long as there is any residual regret or pain - true forgiveness will remain elusive no matter how much compassion we bring to the situation and no matter how much we try to “just let it go.”
How do we know if we have truly forgiven? The best way is to notice how we feel in the gut when we are suddenly reminded of the act committed by the person we were trying to forgive. If there is absolutely no reaction and we feel totally peaceful about it, we might assume we have forgiven. But how can we trust that? How can we be sure? Well, it's a good indication that we haven't forgiven if we get disproportionately upset when we observe something akin to what happened to us occurring elsewhere. The more upset we get, the more it is our pain projected. That tells us we haven't really forgiven and there is more work to do."
I hate it sometimes when I realize I've got a lot more work 2 do. But I feel better when I realize and take some comfort in the fact that I'll always have work 2 do - and the "work" can be enjoyable. It changes my perspectives in nifty ways.
How do we know if we have truly forgiven? The best way is to notice how we feel in the gut when we are suddenly reminded of the act committed by the person we were trying to forgive. If there is absolutely no reaction and we feel totally peaceful about it, we might assume we have forgiven. But how can we trust that? How can we be sure? Well, it's a good indication that we haven't forgiven if we get disproportionately upset when we observe something akin to what happened to us occurring elsewhere. The more upset we get, the more it is our pain projected. That tells us we haven't really forgiven and there is more work to do."
I love this!
And so every opportunity we have to forgive, whether it be forgiving ourselves for thinking a bad thought about someone, or forgiving another for cutting us off in traffic, etc -would be a chance to peel back one more layer, until once given enough chances to practice forgiveness we finally have found heaven (eternal,internal peace).
There would be nothing left to forgive because we no longer perceive pain/hurt and therefore it no longer exists, in the past, present or future. And we would be incapable of hurting another for the same reason. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
As you probably know, RF involves more than that, even. Also from Colin Tipping:
"I remembered something I had heard many years ago. It was on a tape by Arnold Patent. He said, “forgiveness is not letting bygones be bygones. It is coming to the realization that, seen from the spiritual perspective, nothing wrong ever happened. Therefore there is nothing to forgive.”
It was in that moment that RADICAL Forgiveness was born. Though it is a very radical statement, it nevertheless made perfect sense to me in that moment. I knew exactly what he meant. I saw in that moment that as spiritual beings having a human experience we are co-creating our lives with Spirit moment by moment. And every experience we have is divinely planned and orchestrated for our soul's growth. The principal reason for our journey is to heal the dream of separation and to remember who we are. Our Higher Selves attract others into our lives so we can play out the drama of separation for each other."
That's the step that I believe I can understand, but I'm pretty sure I've been unable to implement in my own sitch (because I HAVE done the 'test' described by Tipping, and I DO still get upset - though to a much lesser degree - when I witness something similar to what happened "to" me).
I also still have somewhat of a hard time talking about spirituality, my own beliefs in that area in particular. I'm a very spiritual person, but I don't consider myself religious at all. And that doesn't make sense to many people here.
It was on a tape by Arnold Patent. He said, “forgiveness is not letting bygones be bygones. It is coming to the realization that, seen from the spiritual perspective, nothing wrong ever happened. Therefore there is nothing to forgive.”
I disagree with this. Even from a spiritial perspective there is harm done - pain inflicted. I think when harm is done, and pain inflicted a wrong happened.
That's the step that I believe I can understand, but I'm pretty sure I've been unable to implement in my own sitch (because I HAVE done the 'test' described by Tipping, and I DO still get upset - though to a much lesser degree - when I witness something similar to what happened "to" me).
I also still have somewhat of a hard time talking about spirituality, my own beliefs in that area in particular. I'm a very spiritual person, but I don't consider myself religious at all. And that doesn't make sense to many people here.
The ego is so powerful that it takes constant work to overcome the ego's desire to keep us separate from spirit. Also there are many, many more forgiveness's which need to be done to peel all the layers away, until all that is left is the truth (our oneness with spirit/each other).
We are given whatever lessons in forgiveness which we need to accomplish this, hence our co-creating with spirit.
Jesus (the symbol we are most familiar with) was the first to attain total enlightenment, and therefore his oneness with God. ( Jesus in our culture, but not the same symbol in other cultures)
As far as having trouble with religion, it was like a lightbulb for me when I read in ACIM that our language is innept but all we have to communicate with at this time, and as language trying to define spirituality, you have symbols describing symbols which makes it twice removed from the actual truth.
We have evolved so much in the last 2000 years, however intectually we have so much trouble understanding, but we all understand at some level, on the level of the mind. If that makes sense.
"As far as having trouble with religion, it was like a lightbulb for me when I read in ACIM that our language is innept but all we have to communicate with at this time, and as language trying to define spirituality, you have symbols describing symbols which makes it twice removed from the actual truth."
My house has been appraised. A milestone I've been preparing and working toward for a long time.
I don't think I did everything I could to make this appraisal come out how I wanted. I was, knowingly, too focused on small details. I fought this tendency, but I yam what I yam.
I won't hear how it came out until Monday.
After all this time, my work on the house is no longer related to my divorce.
Now the only pressure comes from the approaching cold, and from Jayne.
Since this is the place to post lyrics, my VVRDXW (Very Very Recently Divorced eX Wife) has been trying to get me back - and sounding less and less foggy. Maybe I'm the one getting foggy. So, here from ABBA is the great...
"Take A Chance On Me"
If you change your mind, I'm the first in line Honey I'm still free Take a chance on me If you need me, let me know, gonna be around If you've got no place to go, if you're feeling down If you're all alone when the pretty birds have flown Honey I'm still free Take a chance on me Gonna do my very best and it ain't no lie If you put me to the test, if you let me try
Take a chance on me (That's all I ask of you honey) Take a chance on me
We can go dancing, we can go walking, as long as we're together Listen to some music, maybe just talking, get to know you better 'Cos you know I've got So much that I wanna do, when I dream I'm alone with you It's magic You want me to leave it there, afraid of a love affair But I think you know That I can't let go
If you change your mind, I'm the first in line Honey I'm still free Take a chance on me If you need me, let me know, gonna be around If you've got no place to go, if you're feeling down If you're all alone when the pretty birds have flown Honey I'm still free Take a chance on me Gonna do my very best and it ain't no lie If you put me to the test, if you let me try
Take a chance on me (Come on, give me a break will you?) Take a chance on me Oh you can take your time baby, I'm in no hurry, know I'm gonna get you You don't wanna hurt me, baby don't worry, I ain't gonna let you Let me tell you now My love is strong enough to last when things are rough It's magic You say that I waste my time but I can't get you off my mind No I can't let go 'Cos I love you so
If you change your mind, I'm the first in line Honey I'm still free Take a chance on me If you need me, let me know, gonna be around If you've got no place to go, if you're feeling down If you're all alone when the pretty birds have flown Honey I'm still free Take a chance on me Gonna do my very best, baby can't you see Gotta put me to the test, take a chance on me (Take a chance, take a chance, take a chance on me)
Ba ba ba ba baa, ba ba ba ba baa Honey I'm still free Take a chance on me Gonna do my very best, baby can't you see Gotta put me to the test, take a chance on me (Take a chance, take a chance, take a chance on me)
Ba ba ba ba baa, ba ba ba ba baa ba-ba Honey I'm still free Take a chance on me
Just got back from the cabin yesterday. Took the week off work, packed up my tools and puttered around there for a few days. What a glorious time. The weather was fantastic getting as high as 20 degrees Celsius…(68 F). The only down side is that it’s dark by about 7:00 PM now. In June it’s light until about 10:30…..so now I’m in reading for the night and listening to the one radio station I can get there which only plays country music. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a lot of country music, but man is it sad stuff sometimes! I had to shut it off when some guy was singing about his daughter getting diagnosed with leukemia. Geez….get me a rope and a tall tree.
Anyways…just wanted to say howdy…..I mean hello, hope this finds everyone well. Good luck on the appraisal GC and thanks for the prayers SS.
AD - I used to listen to a lot of ABBA in the early 80's (I think), and then when DD was little we played it a lot because she liked to sing along. Anyway, great band.
Interesting about your ex, although I doubt anyone is surprised.
Remember all great relationships begin with friendship. Best friends, first and foremost. Let that be the beginning and basis of your new R with her.
As for me, I met someone. It's wierd because I didn't expect to meet anyone I really liked, especially right now because I wanted to spend as much time as possible studying and putting into practice this new spiritual path I have chosen... so now it will be a test to see if I can still keep it on the front line and be in a relationship. (probably not hard for anyone else, but I am easily distracted I think)
A mutual friend emailed him my picture and told him he might like me, so we started emailing and then talking on the phone. Last weekend he drove up from Milwaukee (7 hours) and got a room for the weekend. We went out to dinner and the bars the first night, and then bowling and sightseeing the second. Ended up watching a couple of movies and ordering pizza. He is coming up next weekend again.
I don't know how this LDR will work out (JJ I'm thinking of you here), but I think I could really like him. He is sweet, and funny, and kind of quiet, and fun. I have been telling him about all of you here, and my new interest in ACIM... and he still likes me. LOL
dedicated to the beautiful little Paige (who is home now, gone skating with friends (sigh))
Emmy Lou Harris
And I love you so. The people ask me how, How I’ve lived till now. I tell them I don’t know.
I guess they understand How lonely life has been. But life began again The day you took my hand.
And, yes, I know how lonely life can be. The shadows follow me, and the night won’t set me free. But I don’t let the evening get me down Now that you’re around me.
And you love me, too. Your thoughts are just for me; You set my spirit free. I’m happy that you do.
The book of life is brief And once a page is read, All but love is dead. That is my belief.
And, yes, I know how lonely life can be. The shadows follow me, and the night won’t set me free. But I don’t let the evening bring me down Now that you’re around me.
And I love you so. The people ask me how, How I’ve lived till now. I tell them, "i don’t know."
They guy I'm seeing now was a fixup, and he is just perfect...for me. Has a few arrows in the old back too. I want someone who has been around the block once or three times, don't you? I think people get much better with scars.
Okay for all the fixup's with the arrows in the back -
Peter Gabriel and Robbie Robertson
Who else is gonna bring you a broken arrow Who else is gonna bring you a bottle of rain There he goes moving across the water There he goes turning my whole world around
Do you feel what I feel Can we make it so that’s part of the deal I gotta hold you in these arms of steel Lay your heart on the line this time
I wanna breathe when you breathe When you whisper like that hot summer breeze Count the beads of sweat that cover me Didn’t you show me a sign this time
Who else is gonna bring you a broken arrow Who else is gonna bring you a bottle of rain There he goes moving across the water There he goes turning my whole world around, around
Do you feel what I feel Do you feel what I feel Ah can you see what I see Can you cut behind the mystery I will meet you by the witness tree Leave the whole world behind
I want to come when you call I’ll get to you if I have to crawl They can’t hold me with these iron walls We got mountains to climb, to climb
Who else is gonna bring you a broken arrow Who else is gonna bring you a bottle of rain There he goes moving across the water There he goes turning my whole world around Turning my whole world around Turning my whole world around Turning my whole world around
What do you mean? No I haven't, I have been blabbing all over the place.
I am very happy SS...walking on clouds.
And I am not going to get too spiritual again, but I know when and how it happened. Not the moment exactly but the events which led up to it, and then BAAAMMMM!
I know you understand what I am talking about, atleast I think I do.
And hey as Orchid asked, how about an update on you? LOL
What do you mean? No I haven't, I have been blabbing all over the place.
Does this mean I haven't been reading enough?
I admit I have been gone a lot lately.
Update?
I just kind of go around and take a few pictures every once and a while.
Grin.
Garden is still alive. The little that's left of it anyway. Most died in the 117 deg heat we we had for a week in July.
What's left is a few tomatoes, some zucchini, and some green peppers.
It usually freezes between now and Dec 7th - last year it was into Dec before first frost.
We visited our son in Phoenix AZ a few weeks ago. Vacationed all the way there, and back. The twins were out of school for three days, and we took an extra one besides that for six total days away.
Did some caving Saw the Phoenix zoo BBQ with the inlaws Rode motorcycles Went out to dinner with a former MB'er that lives near our son. Shopped Shopped some more Toured old route 66 in northern AZ - Visited the Log Cabin Govenor's mansion and museum in Prescott AZ. Took more pictures.
W and I are doing well. It's so nice to be in love. I think I might like it.
And I am not going to get too spiritual again, but I know when and how it happened. Not the moment exactly but the events which led up to it, and then BAAAMMMM!
I don't mind at all. You are always interresting.
Being up in the clouds can be so airy. (I mean that in the best possible way.)
No, her dad and stepmom took her to the casino for the holloween party there. It was something they had planned with her and her baby sister.
I took her out to a friends house Sat night (Teresa, my assistant) and we went to a haunted trail walk in the woods. It was really, really fun. Creepy and scary but fun! Well the guy who jumped out of the woods and started a chainsaw had me second guessing my decision to go on the pitch black trail walk, for a minute...but other than that it was fun. LOL
Things are happening. House things. I hesitate to get excited, but good news keeps arriving. I think I've done what it takes to keep my house, but not celebrating yet.
Still, sleeplessness, harsh dreams, they cause me to lay awake thinking, there in my bed at 3 A.M.
Halloween was great. Made dinner for Jayne & the Giraffe, had fun. Today, accepted an invite to play guitar at a charity event. Need to learn a few tunes, FAST.
SS, your post brought real tears to my eyes. Ones I haven't allowed myself the luxury of in some time. Thank you.
We are doing better, I think. The prospect of losing Ti sent his employer in a frenzy and they have since thrown money at him to keep him from leaving. 10+%. Now, if only we could see a paycheck. . .
Maybe this means I won't have to part with my boy. We'll see.
TT, you saw the costumes? I sewed the two on the right, but I think the crowning glory was the Tidy Cats cat litter bin DD10 carried to collect her candy in. It went well with her cat costume and everyone got a hoot out of it.
Gray, all your hard work is paying off. How does it feel? Are you ready to relax yet?
FF, what did your monkeys dress as?
Thanks for the compliments on my pics, y'all. If you like, I can add/post more. I am going to start working on our "real" web site soon. I love photography and web design but have so much to learn. Still, when I can make a few bucks off something I enjoy, it makes it all the more worth it to me, you know?
By the way SS, I think you should publish some of your pics. Absolutely gorgeous.
SLH, DD was a skeleton. You couldn't even tell she was a she! Mask and all. DS was Thomas the Train. Very cute. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Not the wish kind, with no basis in anything real.
But the kind where things are starting to turn, and you can see it might actually work.
Is it real hope, and a part of your days now? Can you hold on to it, and live with things for a while? Are you OK down inside where we go when we are scared? Do you find enough comfort when you go there?
You have a wonderful family. It's a joy to see your girls smile. May your smiles be as real, and as natural as their smiles are.
Good golly, SS, don't let's both of us lose sleep.
Last night was interesting, the perspective that you get, all skewed and what not, when you come out of a bad dream about your ex.
Came out of it feeling lucky. In a dream I used to have often when I was married, I wanted to be with the sparrow but was engaged to someone else. I'd wake up relieved and grateful.
It's like the opposite of the WS feeling, dreaming of being with someone else and waking disappointed because they're stuck with the person they chose.
The blindness that makes a person doubt their choice of partner, and wonder if there might be someone more perfect for them, someone who might "make" them happier, that blindness is profound.
Because which way you feel about where you are - glad because you chose it, or troubled because you're stuck with it - isn't determined by the chosen partner, by how attractive or generous or brilliant or wonderful he or she is, it's determined by YOU.
Those two perspectives are perfect opposites, and the latter of them is the one that causes things to end in tears.
Giraffe and I were talking a little while ago. She and Jayne are gonna get married. She told me about it last night while we were cooking and Jayne was running around scaring trick-or-treaters. I was not gracious at the time. I said, "Well that's damned exciting" or something. Not sarcastic, but not giving congratulations either. Tonight I said I was sorry and tried to explain. She was transfixed. She really wanted to hear what I think about it all.
Anyway, I'm typing away here in hopes that getting some of this out will keep it from robbing me of my sleep.
I don't feel guilty for not forgiving my ex, nor do I refuse. There is nothing wrong with giving yourself time. Especially when the perpetrator does not seek your forgiveness.
Last weekend one of my favorite editions of Speaking of Faith was aired. It was the one about the "Truth and Reconciliation" commission in South Africa in the mid-1990s. There was an incredible story about a group of women forgiving the man who had killed their husbands. Their forgiveness was genuine, but it was made possible by the man's remorse, also genuine. The women even said this was what made their forgiveness legitimate.
That was the wonderful thing about that commission: those who were guilty and those who suffered worked together to make forgiveness possible.
GC, you're sounding more despondant lately. Not overwhelmed, but tired, like you are encountering your spirit less and less these days. Do you find yourself again in your music?
Are you okay, really? Am I misreading?
Tonight I said I was sorry and tried to explain. She was transfixed. She really wanted to hear what I think about it all.
I am impressed that you bothered to apologize, and explain. Most folk wouldn't have. You are such a unique guy, GC.
Because which way you feel about where you are - glad because you chose it, or troubled because you're stuck with it - isn't determined by the chosen partner, by how attractive or generous or brilliant or wonderful he or she is, it's determined by YOU.
I'm curious about this quote. Do you feel it applicable in all situations, regardless of treatment by the OS, or just as a generic rule?
I've read of this so many times in so many books -- about our reality being our perception. And yes, it makes sense. But it is so bloody hard.
Forgiveness is always a good thing; I only wish I could learn to let go of so much of my resentment. Ti told me last weekend that I am angry and bitter. And he's right. Yet I cling to it, almost in an effort to keep from being hurt further. I use bitter sarcasm as a rampart from allowing myself to hope and be disappointed yet again.
Glad to hear things are looking up on the house GC. Be nice to have that sense of stability and not have that distraction.
SLH…nice pic…wish I knew how to post one of my daughter…..she was looking pretty darn cute herself.
SS…Faithful…..wassup?
Weaver, good to “see” you around again.
Other welcome wanderers …… howzit?
Me…..I’ve got a telephone appt. with my lawyer tomorrow. STBXW (That’s right…. I’m not even friggin divorced yet!) wants to change our agreement. I get the kids Thurs PM til Tues AM one weekend and Sat AM to Mon AM the other. She wants to change it so she gets one Sat every 4 weeks. So instead of getting Sat AM til Mon AM I would get Sun AM til Mon AM in exchange the other two day weekend I would get them from Fri PM til Mon AM.
So what? Our agreement signed in the presence of and under the supervision of competent counsel is not binding? I just don’t get it! I have to mess with my schedule yet again to accommodate her or potentially spend thousands fighting this. She has not changed her lifestyle one iota for her children’s sake. She even had her father, who ran off with another woman when STBXW was a child, move in with her to “nanny” our children when they are staying with her. Apparently only seeing her son after school is still too much time with him. She has to work evenings at her job so she can still get her weekends off to go to OM’s city. Pathetic.
So I’m compiling potential arguments why this is a bad idea. I’m also coming up with a “fall-back” offer which I can present if my lawyer says that the potential to win this in family court is slight. Lovely just friggin lovely.
Me…..I’ve got a telephone appt. with may lawyer tomorrow. STBXW (That’s right…. I’m not even friggin divorced yet!) wants to change our agreement. I get the kids Thurs PM til Tues AM one weekend and Sat AM to Mon AM the other. She wants to change it so she gets one Sat every 4 weeks. So instead of getting Sat AM til Mon AM I would get Sun AM til Mon AM in exchange the other two day weekend I would get them from Fri PM til Mon AM.
Geez, my head is spinning from reading that! Binder, I just don't get it. Why would some "man" come before her own children? I hope you win this point easily. I am doing ok. Just working through my own personal growth right now.
Thanks Faithful. I hope you see yourself making progress towards your goal. I get far too self absorbed in my own issues at times and forget that we all have our struggles. I hope this finds you well.
The kids had a good Halloween. Looking forward to taking them to my son's hockey tournament this weekend in a mountain town west of here. I called the hotel and found out that my STBX hasn't booked a room with the rest of the team’s parents so I likely won't have to deal with her much.
Hey good people. So tired. Was an incredibly nice day - mid 60s in NOVEMBER is unbelievable. So took the afternoon off to get some important window painting done.
Wow, Binder. Am I reading this right? Your STBXW wants the "fun" of weekends with none of the hassle and work of a weekday (getting ready for school, homework, dinners, etc)? Ouch.
The judge will love this.
I'm sorry you have to go through this yet again. It must be hard on your little ones, too.
Often, kids can really tell when their parents would rather be doing other things than parenting. I hope she's not so transparent with your little ones.
Hopefully your STBXW won't compromise time with your kids this weekend.
Actually SLH she does not get them any weekends as it stands……to be reviewed when my daughter reaches school age in a little less than 2 years. This way I can maintain my full time status at work with a 4 day a week /10 hours a day shift and still parent nearly 50 percent of the time. I do not need childcare, but it is busy as the moment I’m off work I parent save for every other Friday night she has the kids.
What I think is happening is that she’s realizing that her A is a dead end. OM is a married with kids physician in a town 300 km away. Going there every weekend was quite a thrill for a while I’m sure, but as we all know that does not last. They cannot move their children and thus it’s just a matter of time before this peters out and they are both left standing in the midst of their broken families and ruined reputations. She now wants one Sat. in four with the children and will give up a Friday night in four to do so.
My point is I had to take a new job with my agency to accommodate this new life thrust upon me. I used to have arguable the most exciting job our agency offered….now I work largely in an office doing mundane tasks to oblige this schedule. I have done everything possible to be the most available parent to my children.
She is a flight nurse for an air ambulance service where she met the OM. She maintained her sexy job so she could work 24 hour shifts, maintain a part time status and go to OM’s city on the weekends. As a highly qualified nurse she has all the opportunity in the world to work in any hospital here. We live in an area of nearly a million residents with many major Hospitals. If she wanted more time with the children she could work her weekends, be a full time nurse and have all her weekday evenings free with the children. She won’t change her life though; apparently I have to accommodate her. Is the change in schedule a major revision? Not really, but where does one draw the line in the sand? When she realizes her relationship with him is unsustainable will she wants to change the schedule wholesale?
I will get a sense from my lawyer as to where this may go given her experience. If she says it’s going to weigh in my favor given the signed agreement and my change of jobs etc. I’ll fight it. If she says it is a crap shoot I will give her negotiation options. I will accept this arrangement if she can get the removal of the clause that states the agreement will come up for review when my daughter reached school age…..heck I’ll give my lawyer a 2K bonus if she can arrange that as my STBX wants to go a week on/week off then…or .so she says. If I can keep my weekends with the kids in perpetuity I’ll do it!
Other option is to give her one Sat every 6 or 8 weeks and give me the Friday nights. That will allow me to take the children to the cabin nearly every weekend during the summers as opposed to every other now. Appt. is at 3:00.
I have house work and leaf-raking. Need to go to the dump. I've been invited to play another solo gig on Saturday. On Sunday the band is meeting to assemble new materials for clubs.
The fixup that was supposed to happen last night didn't. The woman didn't show, was packing for a trip. Later, my friend said, "She might be too uptight for you." At least it's not like she stood me up. We've never even met.
I'm nervous about taking this solo gig. I'm not prepared, especially if they expect me to sing. If they'd given me a couple of weeks, I could pick some good covers, finish writing a thing or two, and practice. These things I'm getting hit with - "Can you play at my event tomorrow?" - not ready for it. Worried I'll fall on my face. Just one way to find out I guess...
Gray, When they ask you to do it "tomorrow" just laugh, and say "Im sure you must be kidding, it can take weeks to prepare for a gig."
You can say whatever you want, but I would hate to say yes on 24 hours notice.
Actually, I am asked to give presentations on survival, camping, and also slide shows on places I am considered to be an expert on. That's what I do when I am asked to to it "tomorrow" or "This coming Friday."
It's not that you would fall on your face, it's about time to get ready, and respect. When you respect someone, you don't call and expect them tomorrow. You check a month in advance or more.
Of course, if the had someone else in mind, and they got their hand smashed in a vise, then they need a sub.
We had Elvis scheduled for last week, but then he called and said he couldn't get another dishwasher to sub for him and he had to work his regular job.
Hi SLH, my plans are to entnertain AD when he comes by. He should be here early Sat morning, and we'll get up late, and go for a bike ride, then hike in Zion Park. Monday and Tues we go to the Grand Canyon. I'll take lots of Pics of AD, and if he gives permission, we'll post them for everyone to see.
Good to see the 2500 is gone. You scared me half to death.
SS, have fun with AD! I am so jealous when MBers meet. I so loved meeting those in So Cal a while back.
SLH, my plan is to get my house cleaned up tonight and tomorrow morning for the nosy lady that works for W's trust. They want to make sure we are spending his money properly. My house is a disaster as usual.
SS, you sweetie. You always bring tears to my eyes with your kindness. And you know, it means so much that you look. I haven't posted the entire family link in some time, yet you take a few moments fidgeting with the address bar and look anyway. Thank you.
Ti flipped out when he discovered the $2500. He was showing our web page to a friend one day when he found it. I don't imagine he really thought I'd list him for sale when we discussed it.
I've since removed the offensive $2500 for sale sign, though the link to that page from the official "Horse For Sale" site hasn't been disabled yet. I'm waiting to see if we are going to get paid next week, and regularly thereafter. So far it looks good, especially in light of Ti's raise. (He also has another interview with another NASA contractor on Tuesday.)
I'll do it if I have to but you know I would hate to part with my boy. Not to mention what my girls would do. Did you see the 2nd page with 2 of my DDs and him? He is such a gem.
I am excited about this weekend. I am taking my DD10 to a church conference for girls her age. It shares how to build a firm foundation in God’s Truths regarding worth and healthy relationships before these girls are sent contradictory messages from our culture. Having had to deal with eating disorders and self-worth concerns of my own as a teen, I know the importance of addressing these issues now. This particular conference travels all over the US, so for Faithful or those lurkers with girls who may be interested in attending the seminar when they come through your area, I've included the generic link here. The link for the 3rd-6th graders is here, Yada Yada Jr.
My DD10 is already turning into a Tween. She's calling me the Queen of Fuss lately, LOL. So it begins. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Gray, unless you have to, why not ask them to wait? You have so much on your plate right now. I'm not trying to be a wet blanket, really. But SS was right on target about the Respect issue, barring any vised hands. We all know you're Superman but even he has his limits, yes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS, your weekend with AD sounds wonderful. Do be sure and take lots of pics. (Have you ever considered publishing some of them? Your work is breathtaking.) You guys will have a blast.
FF, I am feeling indignant for you, though I know the nosy trust lady is probably a necessary evil because of a few bad people. I didn't realize there was a W trust, and someone whose job it was to snoop. That does sound like an aggravation! Do they come by often? Will it leave you any time for goofing off this weekend?
It is ok, SLH. She rubbed me the wrong way last time but I can handle it. They like to do this once a year and it was 1.5 years ago the last time. I think she wants to see the addition and Wyatt's sleeping arrangements. I just hate that my day has to be interrupted but oh well. Without the trust we would be in the poor house. It was a medical malpratice settlement.
Gee, it's been a long time since I was here. Hi, everyone. GC, seems like things are moving more or less in the right direction for you, nightmares aside.
Weaver!! Tell more about this man, puhlease!
SLH, I'm glad about the raise. Don't let them trap you with money, though. If the pay ain't regular, it can be a bazillion dollars a year and still not be enough.
Binder, sucks about the court and custody stuff. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with it all again.
Me? I'm well. I'm so in love with HoFS that I can't always breathe quite right. Other than that, life is pretty normal.
We had Elvis scheduled for last week, but then he called and said he couldn't get another dishwasher to sub for him and he had to work his regular job.
JJ, I can't tell more about him right now, because like you I can't catch my breath.
I will say he is WONDERFUL, and I am meeting him halfway tomorrow.
And he actually said to me (he calls three times a day atleast) "why don't you let me worry about the money".
He's bald as a bowling ball, and looks like Bruce Willis, and talks like someone from my past...like when I was a kid and hung out with the nice, funny, wholesome and NORMAL guys.
I wish I were poetic, I'd tell you some things about the way I feel inside, but instead I'll just post the lyrics -
Peter Gabriel
Accepting all I’ve done and said I want to stand and stare again Til there’s nothing left out, oh It remains there in your eyes Whatever comes and goes I will hear your silent call I will touch this tender wall Til I know I’m home again Ooh
In your eyes (in your eyes) In your eyes (in your eyes) In your eyes (in your eyes) In your eyes
Love I get so lost, sometimes Days pass and this emptiness fills my heart When I want to run away I drive off in my car But whichever way I go I come back to the place you are
And all my instincts, they return And the grand facade, so soon will burn Without a noise, without my pride I reach out from the inside
In your eyes The light the heat In your eyes I am complete In your eyes I see the doorway (in your eyes) to a thousand churches In your eyes The resolution (in your eyes) of all the fruitless searches In your eyes I see the light and the heat In your eyes Oh, I want to be that complete I want to touch the light The heat I see in your eyes
In your eyes In your eyes
Love, I don’t like to see so much pain So much wasted and this moment keeps slipping away I get so tired of working so hard for our survival I look to the time with you to keep me awake and alive
And all my instincts, they return And the grand facade, so soon will burn Without a noise, without my pride I reach out from the inside
In your eyes The light the heat In your eyes I am complete In your eyes I see the doorway (in your eyes) to a thousand churches In your eyes The resolution (in your eyes) of all the fruitless searches In your eyes I see the light and the heat In your eyes Oh, I want to be that complete I want to touch the light The heat I see in your eyes
In your eyes In your eyes In your eyes
Accepting all I’ve done and said I want to stand and stare again Til there’s nothing left out, oh It remains there in your eyes Whatever comes and goes Oh it’s in your eyes
In your eyes In your eyes In your eyes In your eyes In your eyes In your eyes In your eyes In your eyes
I want to stand and stare again Oh, it’s in your eyes.
SLH, Lets talk about that bitterness one of these days. It can be erased over time, I would so like to see it blow away in the wind. Your family is so beautiful, and life can be so good.
How about YOUR weekend?
Binder, No man is an island. You got friends.
Gray, Wish you were coming too. Have a good weekend, and you can just say no.
Time's gone. W waiting for date. Her turn, lets see what she's come up with.
I was just making a Creed CD for myself and downloaded this song "Faceless Man", and OMG I just love this song.
2long if you are around listen to this song sometime, you'll like it.
I just want to say that I am so very happy and it has so much to do with what I have come to know as being reality, and I don't want to sound too cheesy, but I am so in love with life now... and I know without a shadow of a doubt it is because I finally found the road home. I mean I finally found what it means to look at the world through the eyes of God, with innocence and love...complete and without guilt, fear or blame.
And it's like nothing I can explain, and it has little to do with DW (new guy) or Paige being home...or anything else other than the fact that I finally get it.
Okay 2long, you listening guy?
CREED LYRICS
"Faceless Man"
I spent a day by the river It was quiet and the wind stood still I spent some time with nature To remind me of all that's real It's funny how silence speaks sometimes when you're alone And remember that you feel I said it's funny how silence speaks sometimes when you're alone And remember that you feel Again I stand, Lord I stand, against the Faceless Man Again I stand, Lord I stand, against the Faceless Man
Now I saw a face on the water It looked humble but willing to fight I saw the will of a warrior His yoke is easy and His burden is light
He looked me right in the eyes Direct and concise to remind me To always do what's right He looked me right in the eyes Direct and concise to remind me To always do what's right
Again I stand. Lord I stand, against the Faceless Man Again I stand. Lord, God I stand, against the Faceless Man
'Cause if the face inside can't see the light I know I'll have to walk alone And if I walk alone to the other side I know I might not make it home
Again I stand, Lord I stand, against the Faceless Man Again I stand, Lord I stand, against the Faceless Man
Next time I see this face I'll say I choose to live for always So won't you come inside And never go away Next time I see this face I'll say I choose to live for always So won't you come inside And never go away
Again I stand, Lord I stand, against the Faceless Man Again I stand, Lord I stand, against the Faceless Man Again I stand, Lord I stand, against the Faceless Man
I called the owner toward the end of the work day. She'd booked someone else, which was fine with me.
Now GC -- what will you be doing that time, instead, hmmmm? Not all raking I hope!
Weaver, you sound so happy. It makes my heart sing.
I love that Peter Gabriel song; always have.
[color:"red"] I want to touch the light The heat I see in your eyes [/color]
SS, hope you have a great evening and weekend. Can't wait for that update!
My weekend was mentioned in a post above. Taking DD10 to a seminar on Saturday and hopefully spending some time with my boy Sunday afternoon. A lot of inconsequentials in between.
Any good reading you can recommend on my bitterness / resentment problem? I've bent my back to the shape of it for so long I am afraid to stand up. And I'm the last person I once would have imagined to feel this way.
JJ, still so happy for you. How is your DD? Any new pics?
Thank you SLH. I need to get off this ole computer, but saw you on and wanted to say "hey" first.
I envy you all your skills SLH, you are so very talented, and I hope you know that. It is such a wonderful thing to be as creative and talented as you are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I love In Your Eyes, and I actually posted the lyrics to the song about an hour before reading them here. (I posted them over on the SYMC Sanctuary board, not on MB.)
Ahh, SS, plans.
We have lots of plans, actually.
Next weekend HoFS comes to visit me. We'll go to services on Friday evening and then spend the rest of the weekend hiding from the world.
Thanksgiving I go to his place. Cornish game hens are on the menu.
In December, he comes to my part of the world and we go to the Mannheim Steamroller Christmas concert.
We'll try to see each other for New Year's as well, and then in January. No specific plans for those yet. Penny (Cerri) is planning a party in February and we're going to try to make it to that.
I have a sense that might not be the plans you meant. And at the same time, well, it's a lot of plans to have made! It's a real challenge, figuring out how to spend time together when you're three hours and $158 away from each other by plane, or 6 1/2 hours and quite a few dollars away from each other by car.
If you read over on SYMC, you also know that P asked us some really tough questions on the interview thread and then also suggested that we think about handfasting on another thread. We both twitch about stuff like that. Approach with caution... there are many complex nuances and currents in our world.
I still aspire to have a marriage like yours, though, SS. Penny says that a stepfamily is as different from a first marriage as male is from female, and I'm sure she's right. I don't have any good role models for fantastic stepfamilies, though, so I'm still rooting for a marriage and family like yours.
And that, in a nutshell, is my world. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Handfasting -- you mean the Celtic version? How do you feel about that, J?
It sounds wildly romantic, twitching and such aside. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for sharing your pics, J. Your daughter is growing so quickly! You can really see the difference from last summer. She is becoming so beautiful.
And what is it with kids & their parents' shoes? My kids would try to break their necks wearing my heels and their fathers' work boots, LOL. My 3 & 5 year olds still drag my shoes everywhere. In fact, I need to locate a complete set here now before church and I am still sitting here typing so I had better run!
I'm not sure, actually. There are two competing feelings. One is the "golly, I am SO in love with him!" feeling. The other is the "oh my god what is HAPPENING here???" feeling.
And now that I'm reading about handfasting on a few sites, err, well, gee. A lot of it sounds an awful lot like a marriage.
'Scuse me while I run screaming into the night for a little while now.
This weekend Jayne and the Giraffe picked up a lost dog on the street. A tiny, elderly poodle. We took care of him for two days. He slept at the foot of my bed. He sleeps flat on his back!
Detective work over the weekend was not successful. Finally today everything came together. The dog is 14. The owner is very pleased.
Aaaaawww. You're right, Faithful. They sound like such neat people.
GC, I've often wondered if you'd enjoy a dog. Would you have time for one?
J, for all purposes, I think that handfasting is akin to marriage in every way. . . except that after that year period, neither parties are obligated to stay. Hmmmm. . . still hiding in the forest, are you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
FF, I found a bunch of pics on my computer today that made me think of you. Have you ever considered hippotherapy for DD? I was truly amazed at the flexability and improvement in concentration that some of our kids had after a few sessions of riding.
(Those pics are from about 8 years ago -- sorry for the lousy quality.)
I'm not prying or being nosy, am I? Please tell me if so! Love you.
I thought I'd post one of fishies I breed for you all to scoff at -- but you'd be surprised what one of these can go for when you breed them just right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
While sharing these totally boring snippets from my life, I'm really trying to avoid being too productive today. . . can you tell? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SLH, those fish are gorgeous! Yes, we have considered hippo therapy for W but right now time is a consideration for me. Still want to work it in somehow though.
SLH, I wanted to get a dog last summer. Got to know a breeder. Took one of her dogs for the weekend once, and wanted to keep it. But I was having enough trouble taking care of myself and figured I wouldn't be much good.
I called the breeder and told her to let the people who were next on the list have the dog. She said she was relieved. She'd have given the pup to me. But she'd talked about me with her counselor (!), who recommended against it, told her "That guy probably couldn't take care of a hamster right now."
I'll think about it again when Jayne moves out. I don't expect him to stay a real long time, 'cause he and his girl are probably getting hitched.
Tonight I made my return to the swimming pool. Took the summer off so I'd have more time to work on the house. Did better than expected tonight.
I'm closing on the house next week. My closer left a message today saying sparrow will have to be at the closing. Haw! Fat chance.
Heard from car4love the other day. She was real sad. Tinman bugs her all the time about trivial things related to the kids. Makes constant demands, constantly fiddles with the schedule, brings my ex with him when he drops off the children. And nag, nag, nag. He seems to think being an a-hole makes him strong. Poor blind boy.
Miss car4love sure is tired of being their villain.
Well, gotta hit it. It's a little boring without that ancient poodle around, but man it smells better.
Yes, we have considered hippo therapy for W but right now time is a consideration for me. Still want to work it in somehow though.
FF, does your local program offer weekends and evenings? We used to offer it every day at every time but Sundays. Plus, siblings could also ride, which many enjoyed.
I sure miss it. There aren't any hippo programs for miles and miles of here. The last one we had near here decided it would be more financially feasible to turn the riding program into a convention center parking lot. Argh.
Dyed my hair last night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> French Roast, which is basically a rich dark chocolate brown with auburn tints to it . . something to usher in the fall. I like it a lot. That dark, dark color it used to be was getting old (see above pics to FF, bottom right). Too dark and somber, not vibrant enough. Now it glows.
Gray, what kind of doggie were you thinking of getting? I'm kinda surprised the breeder said what she did. Many times, caring for something else is what we need to drag us out of the doldrums. Not always, but most times.
Having said that, though, I've found that's not always the case for me.
Hiding in the forest has taken on a whole new meaning in the last 48 hours; all my SYMC threads have been moved to an undisclosed location for undisclosed reasons until such time as we can determine what to do about an undisclosed situation.
I was planning on a border terrier before, but I can't really afford one. I dig German Shepherds too. But in the end it'll probably be a rescue dog if anything.
I'm glad you're swimming again, Gray. It's good for the soul. I think you'd make a great poochie daddy.
SLH - I love bettas. So does El Diablo Gato....as sushi. Came home the other day and my betta bowl was on my la-z-boy sofa that I had custom covered. (grrr) It's a good thing El Diablo is much loved by his familia.....otherwise we'd have had gato fajitas for dinner.
Just J. Don't know what's going on, but (((Just J)))
Kimmy! I was just thinking of you! When I was talking about dying my hair in an earlier post, I wanted to add that I wasn't as brave as you are when it comes to hair trends, LOL, but I was in a rush. LOL.
What color is your hair now? *grin*
And who is the Devil? An Iguana?
My friends' bettas all get eaten by her kids' ferrets. Apparently those slinky little guys consider raw betta flesh one of the choicest sushis around, LOL!
Missed you, Kimmy.
Gray, I didn't know you swim. Do you find the same peace in the water that I do?
Peace? No SLH, I find pain and difficulty and breathlessness in the water, and find I can't move through it as fast as I'd like.
Joking. I like it very much. I feel safe and comfortable in the water, and after a hard swim I feel strrrrrrong.
When I was little I didn't know how to swim and was terrified of the water. Dreaded swim lessons every summer. Hated it. Then accidentally learned how to swim. Maybe I finally had enough fat on me to be buoyant. One day I was dragged to family swim. While in the water, I plugged my nose, squeezed my eyes shut, and went under. My feet lifted up off the bottom and I could hardly believe it.
Gato!! Gato!!! Sheesh! And you LIVE this far south????
OH, lol! Gato. /Gau-toe/ ! Got it! Darn -- I missed that one. Usually I read spanish far better than speak or hear it.
Remember, too, that I am transplant -- I speak the cajun french much better than spanglish, chere!
I'll bet your hair is gorgeous, Kimmy. One of the reasons I cut mine was because it is always so darn hot, and it was getting too heavy for the clips and barrettes. Don't you get bloody hot down here?
I miss mine being long -- I recently chopped it in a spunky little dark bob at my ears, but it's since grown out to my shoulders, I guess. Long enough for country-girl pigtails! I think I'll let it grow a bit this time -- the luxury of feeling it fall over my shoulders this fall is irresistable.
Gray, didn't pick you as a water guy -- don't know why. But I guess it makes sense when I think about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
LOL, 2Long. I've seen your picture and I know that's true. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
slh
Naw it's a wig, that's why he says he USED to get it cut once per three years. Now he doesn't get it cut at all...cuz it just isn't there anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
BTW, my hair is to my waist now, flowing in waves...the color of brandy, with hints of nutmeg.
weaver, I don't even want to talk to you, Missy Walking On Air!! j/k I would be jealous of the hair thing, but mine looks so good, at least when I cover the gray and it isn't covered with dust from the barn.
I LOVE to swim. Went to DC for bro's wedding a while back. I played with nephews in the hotel pool and beat the trunks off of them all in all the races!! I told them that they should all be ashamed, but my bro is really to blame. Join the Y, I told them and my bro! They are 14, 10 and my son 8. Oh and niece 14, too. I am 40+ (just +1) and smoke..little wimps. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
weaver, I don't even want to talk to you, Missy Walking On Air!! j/k I would be jealous of the hair thing, but mine looks so good, at least when I cover the gray and it isn't covered with dust from the barn.
Well it's settled then...all the women on this thread have great hair. The men have none, but they like good beer...and one of them (hi Gray) can even cook! And they all are musically inclined, so that makes up for the lack of hair anyday, in my book. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
As far as swimming...I can but I'm definately no fish. I prefer to be in a boat, preferably a canoe going down an awsome river with a cooler full of cold ones, or thermos full of hot coffee, depending on the time of day.
Rock on jls! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Uh oh! I don't have great hair. It's a trial and difficulty to me. Dark brown, fine, and entirely straight. And, uhm, I think it might be down to my collar now. It's taken two years to get it there, too.
My female colleagues are trying to help me bring out the girl in me. It's an interesting challenge. I'm told that I am forbidden to wear a business suit to our holiday party, for example. They're determined that I have to buy -- and wear (GASP) -- a dress. And new shoes.
I don't think I'll mention hair. I'll probably end up in a salon on the day of the party instead of just taking a shower an hour before I need to leave.
No, I didn't bury her. She never quite managed to grow up. My inner girl stopped at about 6 years old for a really long time. Now she's wandering around at 15 or 16 going, "Uhmmmmm, do I need perfume? How do the other girls get their hair to look like that? I don't think my body's quite right for a dress like that... can I really ever look sexy?" Etc. etc. etc.
Very amusing, really. When I was actually 16 years old, I was focused on physics and calculus. It's taken me until now to understand why all the other girls were interested in hair dryers and clothes.
Well. I still don't really understand it. I think of it as more of a scientific investigation of Being A Girl.
For the moment, I'm having fun with it and letting the "girl" part out to explore. Clothes, shoes, hair, jewelry... very odd. But fun, so what the hey? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Of course a great hair cut, a little lip gloss and some sexy undies from vickies secret never hurt either <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Oh, and I don't know, but I been told that a dainty little waist chain makes all the difference in the world <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
(well actually I do know LOL)
Have fun J... how exciting!!!! Almost like a mid life but way better. I just love being a girl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
*snort* Okay, a dainty little waist chain? Uhhhhh, let's see. How would that look on me? Uhmmmmm, okay, boys, and those who don't like gross? Don't click on this link.
We have lots of plans, actually.....................
...............I have a sense that might not be the plans you meant.
You told me what I wanted to know.
If you read over on SYMC, you also know that P asked us some really tough questions on the interview thread and then also suggested that we think about handfasting on another thread. We both twitch about stuff like that. Approach with caution... there are many complex nuances and currents in our world.
I worry about those same things. Penny is better at many of the hard questions than I. I worry, but continue to pray that you might know what to do, how to proceed. That you may make choices that add to your happiness.
I still aspire to have a marriage like yours, though, SS. Penny says that a stepfamily is as different from a first marriage as male is from female, and I'm sure she's right. I don't have any good role models for fantastic stepfamilies, though, so I'm still rooting for a marriage and family like yours.
I wish things were as good on this end as some people think they are. (Grin.)
It is said that "into every life a little rain must fall." I just hope you don't have too much of it all at once.
And that, in a nutshell, is my world.
Very small nut - if the shell is any indicator.
I have not read on SYMC. I don't know what is happening. This (Grayclouds) thread has been light, and that's good, but I would like to know how you are. I think your plans are excellant and make a good time line. Safe interaction is where it's at at during this stage of the process. As you already know, there is much learning taking place. That's necessarry, and as it should be.
As far as wanting to run screeming into the night....... join the club. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
J, You are better than you think. When it is (sometimes ) hard, keep that in mind. You'll figure it out.
AD and I had a really good time. He is a true southern Gentleman. As with many others, he does't yet know just how good he really is. Having a spouse that has an A tends to do that to us.
Too many of us worry about the things we fail to do, or what we do wrong. That means we don't give ourselves credit for the many more thing we do right, the things we DO acomplish.
It's hard to stay in the middle. Realizing we have talent, and abilities, but continueing to learn, and improve where we are weak.
I had a great time, wish more of you could have come.
When I was there, I couldn't help wondering why the lava went 2 all that trouble 2 work its way through fissures all the way up 2 the rim before erupting and spilling in2 the canyon? Like, wouldn't it have been a lot more expedient 2 just erupt on the banks of the river? (and the steam explosions would have been spectacular!). I wouldn't do that if I'd left my lunch at the rim!
What a picture SS! You are so lucky, where you live...all that beauty.
I am so glad AD went out to see you, and that you had a good time.
AD, glad you had a good time! You are not on the board very often anymore, and I hope that means you are back to giving your daytime job 100% of yourself, because I have this theory that when we are really happy and content we become the best we can be at work, at home and at play.
SS, that view was spectacular. I'm envious of you your talent and trips.
Productive weekend? Oh, Yes. . . took my daughter to that Christian Conference (Yada Yada Jr.) and was really impressed with it. Fantastic choice of classes for mother-daughters to pic from and incredible praise and worship music. DD loved it and can't wait for their next return.
Really been cleaning things up around the house. Pondering a garage sale, but too much trouble. Throwing out the old stuff, even if I have kept it for years. Why is that so hard sometimes?
A lady I know saw a few of my photos and liked them so much that she is hiring me to come out to her property and do a photo shoot of she & her family. I'm flattered and thrilled and a little scared. I have no formal photography schooling, and my little camera is falling aprt to the point where even Ti can only do so much. But I can't help but be excited about the opportunity!
SS, that view was spectacular. I'm envious of you your talent and trips.
Photoshop can cover a multitude of sins. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Productive weekend? Oh, Yes. . . took my daughter to that Christian Conference (Yada Yada Jr.) and was really impressed with it. Fantastic choice of classes for mother-daughters to pic from and incredible praise and worship music. DD loved it and can't wait for their next return.
That is so sweet!! It's always nice when you can do it together. I'm glad you had a good time, and are making memories with her.
Really been cleaning things up around the house. Pondering a garage sale, but too much trouble. Throwing out the old stuff, even if I have kept it for years. Why is that so hard sometimes?
Why? Memories...... pressed between the pages of our minds. Memories.......sweetened through the ages just like wine.
It's hard to throw memories away. Especially good ones. Especially when times MAY have changed.
A lady I know saw a few of my photos and liked them so much that she is hiring me to come out to her property and do a photo shoot of she & her family. I'm flattered and thrilled and a little scared. I have no formal photography schooling, and my little camera is falling aprt to the point where even Ti can only do so much. But I can't help but be excited about the opportunity!
Good for you. I have no formal schooling either, but I can see from your web site that you have an eye for what will look good. I also see you can catch the special moments, the smiles, the happy faces. Not everyone can do that. Go, have fun, don't worry. Be your self, smile..... I bet it will work for you. Believe in your self.
Once again, The Washington Post has published the winning submissions to its yearly contest, in which readers are asked to supply alternate meanings for common words.
The winners are:
Coffee (n.), the person upon whom one coughs.
Flabbergasted (adj.), appalled over how much weight you have gained.
Abdicate (v.), to give up all hope of ever having a flat stomach.
Esplanade (v.), to attempt an explanation while drunk.
Negligent (adj.), describes a condition in which you absent-mindedly answer the door in your nightgown.
Lymph (v.), to walk with a lisp.
Gargoyle (n.), olive-flavoured mouthwash.
Flatulence (n.) emergency vehicle that picks you up after you are run over by a steamroller.
Balderdash (n.), a rapidly receding hairline. (this one's for WAT!)
Rectitude (n.), the formal, dignified bearing adopted by proctologists.
Frisbeetarianism (n.), (back by popular demand): The belief that, when you die, your Soul flies up onto the roof and gets stuck there.
The Washington Post's Style Invitational once again asked readers to take any word from the dictionary, alter it by adding, subtracting, or changing one letter, and supply a new definition. Here are this year's winners:
Bozone (n.): The substance surrounding stupid people that stops bright ideas from penetrating. The bozone layer, unfortunately, shows little sign of breaking down in the near future.
Giraffiti (n): Vandalism spray-painted very, very high.
Sarchasm (n): The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
Inoculatte (v): To take coffee intravenously when you are running late.
Hipatitis (n): Terminal coolness.
Karmageddon (n): It's like, when everybody is sending off all these really bad vibes, right? And then, like, the Earth explodes and it's like, a serious bummer.
Decafalon (n.): The grueling event of getting through the day consuming only things that are good for you.
Dopeler effect (n): The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Arachnoleptic fit (n.): The frantic dance performed just after you've accidentally walked through a spider web.
Beelzebug (n.): Satan in the form of a mosquito that gets into your bedroom at three in the morning and cannot be cast out.
Caterpallor (n.): The colour you turn after finding half a grub in the fruit you're eating.
Yeah. I can't post here about it, tho. I dunno if it's perm or a blip, and some in my family check here to check on me. I'm tired of their attitudes about it.
SS, didn't you know the truth is we secretly sit around and eat bons bons while we put our kids to work around the house! I sing the song from the Disney version of Cinderella to my DD when she is doing chores. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Not long after we bought our house, my ex and I and my brother went to the dump to get rid of some demolition trash. While we were there, we retrieved a clawfoot tub which sparrow planned to restore. She never touched it, and Kimmy's gonna kill me, but today I took it back to the dump.
My ex used to get ideas like that, ideas for creative things she might do, but when it came time to actually do something, she had no motivation. Whenever tackling something was too difficult, she'd punt it. My mother gave her a sewing machine for Xmas one year, and she never touched it. Our friends bought her a set of painting supplies once, and she never went near them.
She had talent, but no patience. She wanted the pretty results, but refused to do any work to get them.
I remember once, she wanted to learn math. She didn't know jack about it, not even algebra. So I got her a book and tried to teach her. She ripped out the page and threw the book across the room, and that was the end of that.
I think she thought some of that was my fault. I wonder if it's true. Certainly I never discouraged her. I have a feeling she thought eliminating me would make her overcome her inability to see things through. I wonder if it did.
Weird. Anyway, enough about her. I am glad that stupid nasty tub is gone.
I close on my house on Thursday, assuming everything is moving ahead.
She had talent, but no patience. She wanted the pretty results, but refused to do any work to get them.
That is not your flaw GC, it is hers. Glad you got rid of the tub. I would love a claw foot tub but not if it was a reminder of yet another thing your X did not follow through on. Good luck on the closing. Hope everything goes smooth.
"Not long after we bought our house, my ex and I and my brother went to the dump to get rid of some demolition trash. While we were there, we retrieved a clawfoot tub which sparrow planned to restore. She never touched it, and Kimmy's gonna kill me, but today I took it back to the dump."
I'm gonna beat Kimmy 2 the punch. Consider yourself kilt! I hope you didn't install one of those tupperware tubs in your house. That'd be so wrong. Clawfoot tubs are the best! And here in LA, they're worth at least a few hundred dollars if they're in decent condition. But restoring one? They have this epoxy stuff that's supposed 2 "reglaze" them, but it doesn't last. If it's got serious chips, it's worthless unless it's some unusual shape or design - then it could be valuable still.
"I think she thought some of that was my fault. I wonder if it's true. Certainly I never discouraged her. I have a feeling she thought eliminating me would make her overcome her inability to see things through. I wonder if it did."
No you don't. You know it didn't!
"Weird. Anyway, enough about her. I am glad that stupid nasty tub is gone."
see above... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
"I close on my house on Thursday, assuming everything is moving ahead."
Cool. Stoke the fire and fill the cooler with Arrogant Bass Turd Ales! (apparently, ****** is a cuss word!)
SS, I am going to be house poor, but it'll be okay.
I wanted her back because I was attached to her, and because I didn't want her to be the filthy person she seemed to be becoming. Didn't want her to walk around with the responsibility of destroying that family. As well as ours.
Now she's someone who's willfully dismantled the lives of several people to get her heart's desire. Seems to me that would be a pretty miserable thing to become. But you know, I don't think it's the first time she's done something like that. Though this was on a much grander scale than the shenanigans I suspect her of from before I knew her. I'll never know, nor will I try to find out.
2long, I can get another clawfoot tub any time. And I figured the old lasts-for-a-year epoxy job would be a real drag. I'll get a good one sometime. For now I'll live with what I have - a crummy blue tub from the days when you could get any color long as it was white, pink, or blue.
Yesterday when I went to the dump (here they call it the "transfer station", I arrived before they were open, but didn't realize it. I didn't see the times posted, though I reckon they must have been somewhere.
I pulled the gate open, hopped in Jayne's truck, and headed in. A worker came at me, waving her arms.
"Back up!" she shouted.
I backed up.
"I'm not open. I open at 12:30!" she shouted.
"Okay, sorry," I said, and turned around. I could see her looking at me, jaws flying, looking very angry, but couldn't hear her any more. As I pulled away and looked in my rearview, she was still speaking in my direction, still looking maaaaad.
I went to the reuse center around the corner to kill an hour. Looked for old door hardware to replace some of mine that's broken.
My first response to the woman's anger? For a minute, I imagined scenarios where I came back and she was still upset. I thought it was likely she would be, and that I'd hear about it. I thought of what to say. I thought I should ask her to cut me slack. Felt myself getting hostile, wandering the aisles full of salvaged house parts.
Suddenly felt ashamed of myself. Decided I'd answer any continued hostility calmly. What's the phrase? See the world through eyes of compassion. Decided to stop expecting the woman to be nasty.
When I returned, the woman was directing people where to put different items. Computers over here, chairs over there, 300# cast iron tubs over there. I had a massive bag of empty containers - cans once full of paint, mineral spirits, stripper, nasty stuff. The guy in the office had told me that to dump it I'd have to show them that all the containers were empty and dry. I pulled the bag out, and walked over to where the guy told me to leave the stuff. The woman who'd yelled at me earlier came over.
"What do you got?" she said.
I told her.
I started pulling the cans out.
"They empty?" she said.
"Yeah."
She smiled and said, "I believe you. Go ahead and leave them in the bag."
Suddenly felt ashamed of myself. Decided I'd answer any continued hostility calmly. What's the phrase? See the world through eyes of compassion. Decided to stop expecting the woman to be nasty.
Oh Gray,
I can't tell you how tickled I was to read this from you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You got it buddy boy...this is our dream and what ever we are inside is exactly what is mirrored back to us. We "see, get, experience" that which needs to be healed in us...and once it is we don't encounter it any longer, because it is no longer our mirror.
We can play Tripoly. We played that all the time growing up. It is hearts, poker and gin rummy combined. And it is really fun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Oh Weaver, we played Tripoly too! I used to feel so grown up when we got the game out. What wonderful memories. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Really, you played it too? I just bought new ones as gifts for my siblings last Christmas. I know what memories.
We played board games and cards all the time, and when we did watch movies on TV, my dad always made popcorn for us.
It makes me sad that DD doesn't have that type of childhood (only child, and only me...no grandparents or anything), but she has different good memories I guess.
I've got marinated sesame steak, whole wheat couscous, and sauteed vegetables for the party.
If anyone wants the recipe, here it is:
Marinate 1 1/2 lb. flank steak (except I used a NY Strip) for about 8 hours or overnight in: - 1/4 c. soy sauce (I tossed in some teriyaki and worcestershire for part of this) - 1 T. sesame seeds - 1 T. honey (I used a little more) - 1 t. fresh ginger, chopped or grated - 2 cloves garlic, smooshed and minced - 2 green onions, chopped
Toss the marinade, cook the steak. Says it serves 4; YMMV.
Deeeeelishous.
I'm having it with a 2003 Four Vines "Old Vine Cuvee" California Zinfandel. Not the best wine in the world, really, but it'll do.
Oh, and dark chocolate covered raisins for dessert.
And no, I didn't cook it myself. I did the marinade this morning and my brother cooked everything before I got home. This is true brotherly love.
Edited to add number of servings and correct amount of meat to use.
Hmmm. Okay, this evening just got waaaaay too decadent. My brother made us chocolate chip cookies and coffee.
In honor of that, here are some lyrics. Not the whole song, because I have a hard time reading it when others put in the whole song. Just enough for the flavor.
I believe this is heaven to no one else but me and I'll defend it as long as I can be left here to linger in silence if I choose to would you try to understand.
Tomorrow, for me, will, assuming my ex cancels the pointless exercise in litigation she's supposedly arranged (I've received no official notice from family court), be a sort of official end to this odyssey.
In the last eighteen months, I've dismantled and reassembled myself hundreds of times. Semi-publicly grieved. Imagined hundreds of never-to-be-acted-upon revenge fantasies. Vainly dreamed up scores of meaningful things I could say to my former wife, if I should ever speak to her.
And now I'm done. I spent a year with most of my life on auto-pilot, just trying to get through. Spent many months after that working my rear end off and taking very little leisure time so I could regain success at work and hang on to my house, at least for a while longer. So here I am alone, wondering what'll happen now. Tomorrow is, in a way, day one of my adult life. I feel neither happy nor sad about it. Just uncertain.
I have a few things going for me, but often have a strong feeling I'm destined to be alone. I don't buy it, because it seems vain and romantic, and 'cause nobody has a known destiny. But I still have the feeling.
In Bull Durham, Crash Davis, in the back of the bus, says, "I was in the show for twenty-one days once."
My marriage is turning into a memory as vague as the college years that preceded it.
Maybe that's the way. You don't remember the thing lost as something great that you hate to have lost, and you don't remember it as time wasted on a life with a person who turned out to be no good. You just forget the whole damned thing.
You didn't tell us how to cook the steak. I need all the instructions. Do you broil it, fry it, grill it...or what? Or does it matter? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I was talking to DW (new guy) on the phone last night and I learned he was a dance instructor for 6 years. Even had a 60 minute show on TV once. This is the first time he told me this, and it almost floored me. Although I knew he was very graceful and a very good dancer.
I hate to say this on this board, but I am falling in love. I have never gone out with anyone as sweet, and cool as him. He doesn't even swear around me, and yet he has two harleys and is heavy into heavy metal music. So in appearance it would seem he is a bad boy, but he is so not. He doesn't smoke and rarely drinks. And he is a very good bowler.
I can't describe him, except he is a gentlemen and so much fun. Most of our phone convo's we spend laughing most of the way through.
After hunting season is over he is coming up again, and this time he will meet my D. We'll all go bowling, and probably play scrabble and other board games with her.
The only down side is he lives in Milwaukee and can't move here, and I love my job and don't want to leave it...and also moving my daughter is a whole other issue.
Anyway I told him I would not even consider moving D and myself until we have dated for atleast two years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I have a few things going for me, but often have a strong feeling I'm destined to be alone. I don't buy it, because it seems vain and romantic, and 'cause nobody has a known destiny. But I still have the feeling.
I don't for one second believe that you are destined to be alone Gray. Like I said, there is an angel out there just waiting for your heart to open once again...and when it does, she will be there.
I spent four years completely alone after my D's dad and I split up. I didn't even date, and they were among the happiest (until my parents died) years of my life. Because I knew that this time was for me and D, and for being alone. Of course I still had a lesson or two to learn, so the next man in my life was Dan...and we all know how that nightmare turned out.
Anyway...you are not going to spend your life alone, for the simple reason that you like women, and want one in your life, and so you shall.
GC, this is only the beginning for you. Let's celebrate the start of your new life...you are such a good person and a man of honor. There is much to like about you and much to celebrate.
My brother fried the steak. I think it'd be fine grilled, done on a George Foreman, or broiled. He cooked it a bit rare and then I put mine back in to get it to medium. Excellent food last night, it really was.
GC, I think you just remember it the way you do all the other events of your life. Life is full of pain and happiness and mostly just tedium that we don't bother to store. If I had the capacity to be aware of all the inputs my senses receive, all the breaths my body takes, and then remember all of those in full and living color, I would probably be insane. Our imperfect memories are a blessing as much as they are anything else. What does it mean? It means that there are layers of richness and experience and wisdom in you that you never had before. The love, the grief, all of it, contributes to the solidity of you-who-are. I bet you never would've thought of compassion for the woman at the dump a few years ago. You probably wouldn't have thought about it at all.
The key transformation is pain-into-joy. Hard one, that. Kinda (exactly) like lead-into-gold.
So to end my first day I went to an NBA game with one of my cronies, and on the way home stopped at the neighborhood bar, where the giraffe works, for a glass of wine. The girl working was the giraffe's friend, who the giraffe has told me about and has talked up a bit, but who I never actually met and tonight I couldn't remember her name either.
As I killed the last of my wine, the girl asked did I want another glass. I said no but blah blah blah and introduced myself and asked her name. She said her name, and "nice meeting you", and out shot her hand. Like this was a job interview. What a harda$$! I shook it, said, "It's very good to meet you," paid for my wine, and got the he!! out of there.
She's not really my type, but it was wicked fun exercising the old "hello allow myself to introduce myself my name is GC" muscle, which has no doubt atrophied.
BTW, Weaver? It's really cool to read someone else gushing and having fallen in love. Even on this site that's all about infidelity and the hard stuff, it's really good to read the good stuff. Maybe especially on this site about the hard stuff.
Speaking of which, SS, you mentioned something that sounded less like marital bliss and more like a few bumps in the road. I hope things are okay for you and your family.
FF, my brother is single and rarely gets up the gumption to cook. I do like him -- and he wouldn't make that good of a houseboy. I despair of marrying him off and getting him out of my basement sometimes. But where there's life, there's hope, and he is, underneath his grumpy exterior, one of the best people around.
FF, my brother is single and rarely gets up the gumption to cook. I do like him -- and he wouldn't make that good of a houseboy. I despair of marrying him off and getting him out of my basement sometimes. But where there's life, there's hope, and he is, underneath his grumpy exterior, one of the best people around.
Likely just need the right woman at the right time for him then.
SS and SLH, I miss you.
Gimble, good to see you. I miss seeing you around lately.
2long how are you?
Hi GC, hope you are better today.
Howdy, Weaver! I like reading the gushy stuff too which is why I enjoy J's posts and SS's posts. Now I get to live vicariously through Weaver too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Quote: ================================= Gimble, good to see you. I miss seeing you around lately. =================================
Thanks!
I had to take a 'business is running me crazy and basic sanity break'. I sometimes have a hard time disconnecting from the pain of the people that file through the forums here.
I stayed up too late, was late for work, and I got a bad lid at the coffee shop. There's coffee all over my car's stick. It was all I could do to ignore it while I drove in.
No idiots here - wrong thread. Well, maybe I admit to being one part of the time. Ok, most of the time, but don't quote me.
Yes Gray, it could have been worse. Much worse. Be glad you saved yourself.
Sorry for the mess though, that's never fun.
J, if it was the post I think it was, I was Mr mom the weekend my W was gone to visit her sister.
Problem is that I try to do all the regular outside stuff I usually do on Saturday, and I can't do that, and the inside stuff too. So, I wonder how you gals get so much done. Work, keep house, do yard work, and still be charming, beautiful, and sexy. Ah, but then, that's the fair sex, I should realize by now I could never keep up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SS, there was that and there was something about how you wished things were as wonderful as some here think they are.
As for how we get it all done? Well, I honestly have no idea how people with lots of kids get it all done. It's hard enough chasing one of them around.
But here's a few rules that will help (mostly stolen from FlyLady):
- Break your work into 15 minute increments. - Use a timer to keep you on track. - Take a break every hour. - Reboot your laundry -- and think of your laundry in reverse of the normal order: Put things away first. Then fold. Then dry. Then wash. Then collect. If you do it in this order, you'll keep the system clear and things won't back up anywhere. - Figure out what's for supper when you make breakfast. - Figure out what's for breakfast and lunch right after supper. - Keep your kitchen sink clean and shiny all the time. - Carry a plastic grocery bag when you walk from room to room. Pick up the things that don't belong there and put them in the bag. - Never go upstairs without your hands full of whatever needs to go up. - Never go downstairs without your hands full of whatever needs to go down. - When you walk across the kitchen, make sure you pick up things that need to be put away and then put them away. - Get into the habit of straightening as you go. Truly make it a habit -- to the point where you don't remember how a room got clean. - Bless your home in an hour. That means taking ten minutes to each of these: Dust high traffic areas. Sweep or vacuum the middle of the high traffic rooms. Empty the trash. Mop the middle of the kitchen and bathroom floors. Purge paper clutter. Change sheets. Polish mirrors and doors. (Stop after an hour, even if you're not done. And yes, this is one of those "work up a sweat" kinds of hours!) - Do the same things with your outside chores. Break your yard into areas that you can handle in 15 minute chunks and cycle through them until you're done. - Turn off the computer. - Turn off the television. - Wear your shoes. - Play cheerful music while you work. - Engage your kids and make it fun for them. Explain that you only want them to spend 15 minutes on their rooms, and break down the tasks into specific items they can understand. Make their to-do lists short, particularly for young children and teenagers (who are really just young children in large bodies). - Go to bed early. - Take a bath or hot shower before you go to bed. - Spend an hour at the end of the day reconnecting with yourself and your loved ones and (if you choose) your higher power.
And most importantly?
Remember to take time to make it fun for everyone. All the way through.
- Reboot your laundry -- and think of your laundry in reverse of the normal order: Put things away first. Then fold. Then dry. Then wash. Then collect. If you do it in this order, you'll keep the system clear and things won't back up anywhere.
You lost me on this one J. Actually I thought the whole was a joke, but then I realized it wasn't. LOL
Still don't understand the laundry thing, unless it has something to do with Merlin the Wizzard and his "backward" theory of life, as in we are all traveling backwards to our birth. LOL
SS, there was that and there was something about how you wished things were as wonderful as some here think they are.
Oh shoot, I just meant I am a regular guy, I go to work, I pay taxes, and I weed my yard. Sometimes my W and I differ in our opinions. Sometimes we are frustrated.
However, I suppose I have been married for 28 years, and it looks like no D this year either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
No trouble out of the ordinary - Grin.
How about you J? I think you could be feeling some frustration, but then, there are good parts to being in love too.
Weaver, I here BFE has snow, is that true, you freak. I'm coming up for my birthday, can you believe my friends want to go to Marquette for the weekend, I'm trying desperatly to put my foot down.
SS, you are really digging a hole, you ate the chocolate, have you any idea who I am, and what I live for.
Oh I love Marquette jelly, but I don't think you fit in...it's the most cultural town in the UP. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
And yes we have snow...and so do you, who you trying to kid. Geesh, think we don't have the weather channel up here or sumpin. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
PS, you aren't queen here girlie...youse peasant just like the rest of us. (cept Gray of course)
The laundry thing is for those who have something known as Mt. Washmore. (Big piles o' laundry.) If you run through the steps backward, you avoid that problem because you always clear the next-available-space before you go to the prior step. It's like how you empty the dishwasher before you fill it again. People get lost when they're doing many loads of laundry sometimes, so you have ot make sure that all the bottlenecks get cleared every time.
If you do industrial process design, this makes intuitive sense to you. If you don't, it may seem mighty strange the first time you think it through.
SS, if you're gonna eat cookies and milk, it's going to be a lonnnnnnnng weekend.
Yup, I'm a flybaby. Don't really need it so much anymore -- mostly needed it when I was going from being one of two cooperative adults in a small townhouse to the only person doing any housework in a bigger three bedroom house that had three (and then very quickly two) other adults and an infant in it. It was exhausting and I'm glad I found her.
I do wish I could claim to be done with my Christmas shopping, though. End of November seems like a -really- good time to finish that up.
I've been to Marquette. All in all, I prefer Naubinway. (Not really. I came down with mononucleosis while stormed in at the Naubinway boat docks with a south wind pushing all of Lake Michigan into the harbor. Not a good memory.)
I have fire, I have graham crackers. I have marshmallows. I have chocolate. I have a WINE PARTY to go to in a bit, but before I take off, does anyone have any suggestions for what I ought to do with these things from my pantry?
Oh yes J, I think I remember you talking about your stay in Naubinway...the crashing waves, etc.
I am partial to Lake Superior and I love the beauty of Copper Country, the Houghton Lake area.
If any one ever gets the chance to come to the UP, definately go to the Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum at Whitefish Point. It is an incredible visit.
I have an acquaintance who dived with the crew when Jacques Cousteau (sp) went down to film the Fitzgerald, and he was instrumental in starting this tribute/museum.
Also of course Taquamenon Falls is well worth the visit.
And the bird migration at the bird observatory up there is something I plan on getting to this spring.
I don't know how to do a link so have copied some info on the great bird migration.
Whitefish Point Bird Observatory
Whitefish Point, MI 1-906-492-3596
Whitefish Point is 12 miles north of Paradise, Michigan, in the far eastern Upper Peninsula. The Whitefish Point Bird Observatory is 72 miles north of St. Ignace on Highway M-123 and 55 miles northeast of Newberry, MI on M-123.
The spring bird migration is starting. The "early birds" are returning from the south and going north. The flyway starts at Whitefish Point where tens of thousands of birds cross to Canada. The migration lasts for about 2 months, from March till the middle or end of May. In late fall, they will return to the south.
The eagles come first, in mid-march, followed by the other species of large hawks, such as the red tailed, and rough legged hawks. The smaller sharp-shinned hawks follow in mid to late April. Then come the falcons and finally, the broad winged hawks in late May. Between mid April and the end of May, waterfowl fly low over the lake to avoid the raptors. In the midst of all this come the songbirds.
April through Mid May is also peak time for the owl migration. 10 species of owls either breed or spend winters inraptors migrating Michigan. The boreal, snowy, great gray and northern hawk-owl winter in the Upper Peninsula, then return north for the summer. The northern saw-whet, great-horned, barred, log-eared and short-eared owls have also been banded at Whitefish Point.
In 1997, from April 15 to May 31, waterfowl biologists counted 42,260 waterfowl of 64 species.
As the birds come to the flyway over Lake Superior, many stop for a time in the Whitefish Point area to feed and rest.
Whitefish Point is a migration focal point and home of the Whitefish Point Bird Observatory. Last land going north, first land coming south, it sees everything going by, and that makes it famous for birds and shipwrecks.
The visitor center is located across from the Whitefish Point Lighthouse and Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum. Information is available on the paths around the Point and local bird lists are maintained. Although the natural features of the point bring many birds, the area is especially known for its raptors and water birds. Birders from all over migrate here in the spring and fall, when the hawks, eagles, goshawks, falcons and owls prepare for or recover from their journey across Superior to the great mouse-hunting areas of the North and South.
The Observatory offers scheduled programs and extended hours in the spring during migration. The raptor migration is phenomenal in the spring, and excellent water bird flights can be seen both spring and fall. Whitefish Point is also a spring and fall hot-spot for warblers, sparrows, and other songbirds.
Bird enthusiasts from all over the nation and other countries visit the Point to witness the spectacular migration to and from the northern breeding grounds. An elaborate series of wooden walkways has been constructed to allow the visitor a chance to venture into the sanctuary area and observe wildlife.
bird migrations to canada
On migration weekends, visitors can listen to short presentations or enjoy supervised activities "in the field," such as bird identification walks or observing the capture of live birds for banding purposes. (Programs are offered on weekdays on a limited basis.) The Visitor Center and gift shop is open 10 am to 4 pm six days a week (closed Wednesday), April 15 through October 15. For more information, call 1-906-492-3596.
The Whitefish Point Bird Observatory documents the distribution and abundance of bird migration, and is operated by the Michigan Audubon Society.
Oh I am so jealous of the beautiful places you all speak of. I never get any where these days. I am still threatening to move in next to our lovely queen Jelly though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SS, enjoy your day while I grocery shop for turkey day and for the pre turkey day meal I promised DD. I am without son's caregiver until early December so I will be extra busy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Oh do I ever Faith. I love this age my DD is at now, just love it! I bought her the razors and shaving creme about a month ago, of course I can't "show" her anything..she already knows it all!
PS, if you do move by queen jelly bee, you will be very close to me too.
LOL, I forgot your DD is going on 40! My DD wants me to help the first two times and then she will be on her own. The first time was tough as there was all that first soft growth. Oh Weaver I would love to live near such good girlfriends! My stbx would never let me take the kids out of state though. Maybe we need to schedule a meet up and I will fly out to see both of ya. Maybe get Kimmy to come along and SLH. A whole weekend in a hotel or sumthin'.
My mom, when I asked to learn to shave, ranted at me about how I was too young. For ... about an hour.
I quietly went upstairs and used HER razor to figure out how to do it and never asked her another question about female stuff again.
The same thing had already happened with bras and makeup and getting my ears pierced. I was in trouble for three days after I finally got my ears done -- when I was 18 and in college.
No wonder I never really developed the girl parts of me. I was, apparently, not SUPPOSED to like being a girl. Must remember not to do that to my daughter when she's that age -- or any age.
SS, there's more FlyLady tips at www.flylady.net. It's full of hilarious bits and very smart bits and lots of rants about how we have to take care of ourselves.
Weaver, I suspect that everyone who lives on the Great Lakes understands when I say that the Edmund Fitzgerald song by Gordon Lightfoot makes all the hair on my body stand straight up. If you've been on any of the Lakes in a storm, you know how incredibly dangerous they can be. And when you think of 30 foot waves and 90 mph winds on a Lake like that, it's enough to make you shudder and thank God you're on solid ground.
Naubinway was bad, but at least we were docked -- as we were the three days we spent stormed in on Rock Island, which is off the tip of Door County. The bad night was off of Rawley Point. Never get yourself into a situation where you're in 15 foot waves and only 30 feet of water. Just don't do it.
J, I was lucky that I had two older sisters to help me. My sister showed me how to shave, got me my first bra and got my ears pierced and they were both there for me when I needed. My mom never told me any girl stuff or sex stuff. I noticed my DD's legs were getting a bit hairy and asked if she would like to shave. I also took her for her bras. I love having a girl around.
My mom was the same way. Even to the point of not wanting us to ever be submissive to men (in marriage). I don't know what it was about the moms of that generation...probably had to do with the womens movement. The women in my family were very, very strong stock.
Speaking of the power of the great lakes, I had to drive home from the western UP last weekend after meeting up with DW, and drove down US2 along Lake Michigan to the Mackinac Bridge to get my DD from where she was staying and I had to battle 60/75 mile an hours winds. (NO LIE) It was the scariest drive of my life, and a huge struggle the entire trip just to keep my little Blazer S10 on the road. I had panic attacks the entire trip...there was literally sand dunes blown across the road and massive trees down everywhere uprooted by the roots.
The Mackinac Bridge was closed of course (more than one vehicle has gone off the side of that bridge to death), and I was so scared I literally could not make myself pull off to the side and wait it out. It was white knuckle, practically tearful all the way.
Anyway, saw a few ships anchored out in the lake and it gave me goosebumps too.
It was just a few days after the twenty year anniversary of the sinking of the Fitzgerald. A night I remember well, as the roof blew off our house, and two barns out back caught fire.
The lakes are nothing to take lightly in a storm, that is for sure. If you ever get a chance, read about some of the women who lived in the lighthouses in the old days, and their struggle just to survive the winters.
Weaver, my mom was a CA pure and simple. If she didn't mention it, it would go away. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> It had nothing to do with the women's movement or her wanting me to be strong!
Today the band planned to do some recording. I don't have a good amplifier right now. My main one (an okay but not great amp) has been in the shop for six months, waiting on a part. And this morning, on the way to record, not looking forward to using my crummy little backup, I dropped by the guitar store.
I walked in, looked around, and there she was. This pretty blonde amp.
See, there are these little companies around, sometimes one-man operations, that build handmade tube amplifiers. Hand wired circuitry, speakers with AlNiCo magnets - obsolete technology that's superior to any modern substitute.
These "boutique" amps are pretty, they sound good, and they cost a lot. They are the trophy wives of rock gear. If you can afford one, you're probably not a serious musician. Serious musicians are always BROKE.
So there sat the blonde with her tweed grill, fluttering her lashes, and I thought, hm.
Asked the guy at the counter do they let people take amplifiers out for demos. No, he said, but I could rent this one. I'd have to put the full purchase on a card, and then I could either bring it back and get all but $15 refunded, or not bring it back.
The amp costs four times as much as anything I've ever bought for music.
I did the rental, loaded her up, and headed to the recording site. Before I could have any fun, I had to take my guitar apart and clean up the pots (the volume and tone controls). They were real scratchy, and I wouldn't be able to use them on a recording that way.
That finished, I put my guitar back together and plugged it in to the blonde.
There are days when I wander away from the campfire and into the forest. Inevitably, I wish I never had. Today is one of those days. Sigh. Who's got the marshmallows? I could use that and some hot chocolate.
There are days when I wander away from the campfire and into the forest. Inevitably, I wish I never had. Today is one of those days. Sigh. Who's got the marshmallows? I could use that and some hot chocolate.
Ditto that!
There are days (and this is one of them) when I wish we didn't have to use words to communicate...when we could communicate on a higher level where our hearts/dreams/thoughts come through in utter, perfect clarity...and could not be misunderstood to the point where we feel frustrated and sad. I was born too soon...I came too early. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Anyway here is a very pretty little piece I read last night from Marianne Williamson's "Enchanted Love" (a beautiful book about love I highly recommend.
"If you will hold my hand, then I will hold my breath and cast my fate in the direction of my heart. I will put on hold my lesser dreams and reach for what is truly mine.
Say you will, and I will buy my ticket for this ride. It will not be cheap, nor always smooth. But I don't care. I don't care. I have finally come to that..."
I have fire, I have graham crackers. I have marshmallows. I have chocolate. I have a WINE PARTY to go to in a bit, but before I take off, does anyone have any suggestions for what I ought to do with these things from my pantry?
And of course there's also beer.
As I adjust my crown and take a bite of my smore.....
I think nothing goes better with smores than BEER!!!!!!!!!!!
Musicians are so passionate, it's a beautiful thing, I could so be a groupie. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, your description of the UP is very misleading. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Cept the part about the winds being very scary.
FF - OMG don't tease me, YOU GIRLS should so come, Weaver and I can get us all hooked up, we will of course have to do it down here, the UP doesn't have Motels yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
I'm not above kicking my family out for a weekend, we could do it here, then Faith, you can check out the area. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Just J, anything across the bridge is beautiful, just dreadfully boring. YAWN
Anyway here is a very pretty little piece I read last night from Marianne Williamson's "Enchanted Love" (a beautiful book about love I highly recommend.
"If you will hold my hand, then I will hold my breath and cast my fate in the direction of my heart. I will put on hold my lesser dreams and reach for what is truly mine.
Say you will, and I will buy my ticket for this ride. It will not be cheap, nor always smooth. But I don't care. I don't care. I have finally come to that..."
That's the way I felt with my XW - and still do sometimes. The idea of just risking it... yes, the ticket is not cheap. The price is 1 life (and each passenger must buy his/her own ticket).
Still, life is not something we can put on the shelf in a jar. I'm going to lose it anyway, so why buy the ticket?
Oh, and I understood the laundry thing. We useta have a problem with that. The idea is to clear the pipeline before you stuff anything into the front end of it.
Weaver, that's a lovely quote. And dangerous, letting go and chasing that big dream. Oh, and I really appreciate what you said on the marriage coaching thread. There are a few more things I'd share with you, but can't on MB. If you want to send me e-mail, one of my addresses is in my signature line.
Hm. Reading these boards is not working for me. Seeing the same stories repeated, repeated, repeated, is crazy-making. Success is unusual. Tiny is as tiny do. The ones who disengage from their affairs (you know who you are and you are mighty) and look for redemption are too rare. My morale is gone.
Hey 2long.
If you're going to San Francisco Meet me at the Edinburgh Castle Or else someplace nice
Hi Gray. Good to see you. Is it really that the stories repeat endlessly that gets you? Everyone's stories repeat. It sounds like the "success is unusual" part is what's so hard. So...
What is it that you see that makes these stories repeatedly end up badly? What's the common thread?
GC, I feel much the same way as you today. It gets harder and harder for me to read here. I have been reading on the D board and that is really sad and discouraging. I am feeling good about myself lately though. J, good question..I think the blind selfishness of the WS is one common theme.
Mmm. Yeah, blind selfishness is absolutely a common theme.
If we take that as a given -- then how do we change the story?
Hmm. Okay, how about a different question. What are the common themes in the people who actually come here looking for help? How do they contribute to the way the stories go from the point that they arrive here and start getting MB input?
J, I'd say most of my frustration exists because the person asking for help usually doesn't have much power to influence events.
She agreed with her partner to work together to make things good, and now her partner has grabbed the reins and pushed her off the horse.
That's my frustration.
As for the ones who do ask for help, regardless of which side they're on, their resistance towards good advice, always for the same ol' reasons, is frustrating.
This resistance is always manifested as INACTION. Or maybe INERTIA is a better word. Inertia based on fear of the consequences, which is absurd coming from people who are already drowning in consequences.
This resistance is always manifested as INACTION. Or maybe INERTIA is a better word. Inertia based on fear of the consequences, which is absurd coming from people who are already drowning in consequences.
makes perfect sense, GC. I can look back in this past 18 months of my WH's current A and clearly see my mistakes and my fear. However, I had the complication of my own A being outed during all of it which truly clouded my vision and my WH used to his advantage.
If we take that as a given -- then how do we change the story?
Part of the problem J, is getting the BS to see that this is about the WS and their selfishness, not about the BS. Yes, the BS is partly responsible for the state of the M but this is not about them! It is so hard when someone is writhing in pain and full of fear to help them see clearly.
Quote
Hmm. Okay, how about a different question. What are the common themes in the people who actually come here looking for help? How do they contribute to the way the stories go from the point that they arrive here and start getting MB input?
Lately the theme I see are people unwilling to follow the plan in order to mitigate the chaos in the lives and turn life around for them. Hindsight is 20/20 for me KWIM? They want the M so badly they forget about themselves. For example, here is GC..his M did not survive but HE did. There are many others here like Alphin who followed the plan and maybe the M did not make it but they grew, they healed and they became strong and in charge of their lives.
FF, I believe I'm pretty much done with this, but when I took inventory of everything I did during the past 1.5y, something simple and obvious emerged.
The only things I would advise my past self to do differently have to do with actions I did not take because I was afraid.
The only things I would advise my past self to do differently have to do with actions I did not take because I was afraid.
That my dear, dear friend is the brunt of it all I believe. God bless you, GC. Your life will be full some day soon. You are too fine of a man to be alone long. {{GC}}
Good points, FF and GC. We have very little real control over any situation in our lives. It's tough to watch people try to reassert control in a situation that's become chaotic -- though it's certainly understandable when their lives are upsidedown and they don't like it one bit.
If the best we can do is to get them to really listen and take ethical action that actually helps them to become whole -- and not do further damage to their marriages -- I wonder how we shift things to get them to do that.
If the best we can do is to get them to really listen and take ethical action that actually helps them to become whole -- and not do further damage to their marriages -- I wonder how we shift things to get them to do that.
hmmm...making us think now aren't you, J? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
The posters that I have watched follow the MB principles have been coached closely by someone calm and experienced. For example, Gimble spent a lot of time with Alphin and Mortorman with Gramn. I myself have been my best when I have someone like Pep or BR working with me. Keeping them calm and focused seems to be key. But how?
I'm "just going". I can get away with it 'cause my stock is high at work and I haven't gone the last few years.
Sorry I won't see you, 2long. Still, I'm looking forward to seeing lots of old pals who will no doubt be gushing with sympathy because they knew sparrow and me when we were first married.
I'm sure there will be serious conversations. I'll have to resist the temptation to run her down, even though she deserves it.
Well, I made Thanksgiving dessert and went to a rock show. My ears are ringing and I'm incredibly tired. Night.
Been thinking about you lately buddy. Hope your Thanksgiving was good.
What do you say you plan a get together for this spring? LOL That's right... you. And maybe some of us would be able to travel to meet up. What do you think?
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I so wanted to have a get together on the island, but now that is gone to me, and it was too far out of the way for anyone else anyway.
What say you guy?
I'd plan it myself, but like I said I am too hard to get to, and I am too dismantled to plan a party. Is dismantled the right word?
I want to meet all of you...and I feel this urgency all of a sudden, for some reason.
Am I being too pushy Gray? LOL
My song for the evening's fire -
Artist: Van Morrison Lyrics Song: Into The Mystic Lyrics
We were born before the wind Also younger than the sun Ere the bonnie boat was won as we sailed into the mystic Hark, now hear the sailors cry Smell the sea and feel the sky Let your soul and spirit fly into the mystic And when that fog horn blows I will be coming home And when that fog horn blows I want to hear it I don't have to fear it I want to rock your gypsy soul Just like way back in the days of old Then magnificently we will float into the mystic And when that fog horn blows you know I will be coming home And when thst fog horn whistle blows I got to hear it I don't have to fear it I want to rock your gypsy soul Just like way back in the days of old And together we will float into the mystic Come on girl...
Oh and here is one - dedicated to JJ and HoFS (I remembered his intitials J!), and maybe for DW and me...but I'm looking before I leap this time (atleast trying to).
Artist: Van Morrison Lyrics Song: Someone Like You Lyrics
I've been searching a long time For someone exactly like you I've been travelling all around the world Waiting for you to come through. Someone like you makes it All worth while Someone like you keeps Me satisfied. Someone exactly Like you. I've been travellin' a hard road Lookin' for someone exactly like you I've been carryin' my heavy load Waiting for the light to come Shining through. Someone like you makes it All worth while Someone like you keeps Me satisfied. Someone exactly Like you.
I've been doin' some soul searching To find out where you're at I've been up and down the highway In all kinds of foreign lands Someone like you... [etc.]
I've been all around the world Marching to the beat of a different Drum. But just lately I have Realised The best is yet to come. Someone like you... [etc.]
Sorry, couldn't resist. At the time it came out, it achieved - as coined by Woody Allen in "Annie Hall" - total heaviosity.
I remember hearing it for the first time in my friend's garage, sitting in his unrestored 1931 Model A Coupe, wire brushing some cast part for the running gear I think. His house was "cool". They had one of those intercom systems that could be switched 2 either AM or FM radio, so we could listen 2 music while working on the A. Takes me back...
He got me (and a few other friends) interested in old cars. Also got his parents in2 them, and they restored a 1909 Overland (I helped some) and a couple other rare cars...
Sure, weaver. I'd love to have a shindig. Let's just see if the idea catches on. Yesterday after dinner I was drafted to host Xmas again, and I'm having a "housewarming" party in January, so I should have it together pretty well by spring '06.
2005 was supposed to be my "new life" year. Horse$H!t!
Now that was funny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I loved that song 2long. It came out around the onset of my flower power years. Brings back good memories for me too.
Who's "six" Gray?
Wish we had someone around here with a big house, willing to host all the parties. There is a single guy with no kids who lives across the alley-way from me (a gardener) who has some very loud parties out on his "veranda", he has an outdoor fire place and lots of good music going on into the wee hours, and some absolutely beautful horticulture. The guy is an artist really.
Oh and here is one - dedicated to JJ and HoFS (I remembered his intitials J!), and maybe for DW and me...but I'm looking before I leap this time (atleast trying to).
Artist: Van Morrison Lyrics Song: Someone Like You Lyrics
I've been searching a long time For someone exactly like you....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Thanks weaver. I'm not sure if I've been searching for a long time but I'm very happy with where my compass is pointed these days!
Hope you had a wonderful holiday weekend. J and I had a great holiday with lots to give thanks for.
Johnny Cash's first wife, Vivan, is never in a good mood. Always frowning. One of Johnny and Vivian's daughters repeatedly walked out of a screening because this portrayal drove her crazy.
Did Johnny and June begin things with the big A? Unknown. As for what's shown in the movie... the filmmakers took so much license with events and timelines, and made up so many things, that you'd never know truth from fiction after seeing the picture.
But after the movie, as I leafed through Cash to reread some of the stories that were inexplicably left out of the movie, I came across this:
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Many parts of my life are painful to recall--this book is hard on me in that respect--but as you'd expect, my first marriage is especially tough to speak about. I've made my apologies to Vivian and tried to redress the damage I did, and these days I don't carry any guilt about those days, so I can tell the stories (which wasn't always so). But still I find myself resisting. Old pain dies hard.
Anyway, as a story the movie is pretty good and sometimes even inspiring. I wish it had been more true, and more about music.
Wow. It's been a while since HoFS posted here (almost a year). You drew him out, Weaver.
Thanks for the lyrics from me, too. I seem to have a distinct Northwesterly direction to my compass these days. I wonder if the neighbors think I'm weird for waving in that direction sometimes....
I miss this place. I am internetless these days, so I am at the public libary.
It has been a month since I moved back to the house. I am okay- keeping busy cleaning, painting, firewood etc. I cook and sleep in and read books. It is really nice to be not working for a few months.
The Desperado is there. I had forgotten what a miserable pr*** he can be to live with at times. I have almost bitten my tongue through at times.
I am trying to keep it sane and peaceful for Beths sake.
Shul, I wish you could stick around and talk, for once.
Thinking of you and wishing you and Beth the best!
J,
I hope you shared my email with him, the one with the excerpt from Marianne Williamson's "Enchanted Love", because an intimate relationship (expecially when it is the real deal), will bring out all your "stuff", and it is for healing purposes so that your relationship can become a "holy relationship" and spread good to all that you effect.
It is very important to be evolved about this, so that you know that all the yucky stuff that comes up in a relationship which is destined, is for the good of all concerned. It is the greatest and most important aspect of an intimate relationship...to heal and help the two people "and all they effect" effect the good in all.
Make sense?
Probably not (damned this language which cripples me LOL).
Weaver, you're absolutely right about how an intimate relationship brings out all the "stuff" and that healing it is the only way to deal with it. He and I have both taken several classes on compassion, ethics, and healing, and have spent quite a lot of time studying the painful stuff parts of relationships as well -- infidelity, abuse, addiction, etc.
We've also both lived a lot of the very difficult things, and have each had to do a lot of our own healing. There is a great deal that you can't learn or heal, though, until you're in an intimate relationship and dealing with the close dynamics of that particular situation.
All of which is to say, yeah. I agree completely.
But!!! What's this about an e-mail with excerpt from Enchanted Love. Errr. Uhm. I don't think I have an e-mail with that in it?
But!!! What's this about an e-mail with excerpt from Enchanted Love. Errr. Uhm. I don't think I have an e-mail with that in it?
Well I sent you this email with an excerpt that just blew me away from Williamson. You know all this already though, so I don't need to resend it.
It's all new to me and I find the whole idea just fascinating, and it brings such a sense of peace to know that this is what relationships do...and were not just crazy people when we fall in love with the right person. This is what is supposed to happen! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
“It's all new to me and I find the whole idea just fascinating, and it brings such a sense of peace to know that this is what relationships do...and were not just crazy people when we fall in love with the right person. This is what is supposed to happen!”
Odd I run across this discussion right now. I have been pondering this in-love feeling stuff lately. Well, for months, actually.
I can honestly say no-one has ever had any such crazy in-love feeling towards me. I don’t think I am rewriting my marital history either. I just don’t believe any more that FWW really loved me from the beginning. I have come to believe my GF in college didn’t actually have those in-love feelings for me either. (She cheated too).
I have felt that in love craziness twice (see above) but now that I think about it, it has never been reciprocated.
Don’t get me wrong, this is not a poor me post. Not at all. It’s a rather cold and analytical assessment, in fact. Just a thinking out loud.
I do have the trusting constant love of DS and my family. That feels very good. And FWW is starting to act love-is-a-verb towards me lately. So I am not without consolation.
But I do sometimes wonder what it would feel like to be loved that way.
Aph, It's even better when you have the crazy feelings, AND the trust and faith that comes from living through he11 with each other - repairing, rebuilding, and finally knowing it will work. Maybe you can get there yet.
I can say that Harleys plan works, if there are not other problems (addictions, ongoing A's, or personality disorders.) I keep hoping for you and 2long.
There are some people that are broken, and that can't be fixed by mere mortals. I keep hoping you don't have one of THEM.
Ap, this was what I emailed to J. I have never had a "holy relationship", meaning a relationship which brings good into the world and spreads God's love, as intimate relationships (marriage's) are meant to do, but I am not giving up and this time I am asking the Lord to walk with us every single step of the way...and if he is the man the think he is, he is as well (asking for help from the holy spirit).
From "Enchanted Love" -
"You and I both know that we have shadow sides. We have edges, my darling, and resistances to love. If we're unevolved about this, then we will hurt each other, we will only cause pain. These aspects of ourselves could ruin this relationship. Let's consider this, before we embark.
In fact, we were brought together for healing purposes. There will be something in your personality which is bound to trigger the un-healed parts of me, and I will trigger yours.
But we can see this relationship differently. Through the grace of God, it can become a healing environment rather than an emotional torture chamber. Then I think I can work on those parts of myself, and you can work on those parts of you. We can even grow beyond these things. I just need you to know that I am trying. Please share with me, but try not to attack or judge me for these wounds I carry. And I will try my best to do the same for you. Then holiness will be served here, and the relationship can deepen.
Forgive me, if you can, and I vow to try to forgive you."
Can the purpose of a relationship be to trigger our wounds? In a way, yes, because that is how healing happens; darkness must be exposed before it can be transformed. The purpose of an intimate relationsip is not that it be a place where we can hide from our weaknesses, but rather where we can safely let them go. It takes strength of character to truly delve into the mystery of an intimate relationship, because it takes the strength to endure a kind of psychic surgery, and emotional and psychological and even spiritual initiation into the higher Self. Only then can we know an enchantment that lasts.
We unconsciously seek the relationships that challenge us to deliver on our most soulful selves, as well as tempt us to fall into our most neurotic patterns. We must attend to the wound in order to heal it. That is the romantic Grail. It is what makes an intimate relationship so exciting, but also so difficult. Enchanted partnership begins with the conscious understanding, on the part of two people, that the purpose of their relationship is not so much material as spiritual, and the internal skills demanded by it are prodigious. High romance is not about past or future. It is not about practicality. It is not about society or worldly routines. It is an audacious ride to the center of what is, at the heart of every person. It is a bold and masterful inquiry into who two people really are and how we might become, while still on earth, the angels who reside within us.
Well, thinking back, I think I was crazy in love and so was she back then - 31 years ago. And likely for a few years after that.
I don't think she's irreparably broken either, but I do still sometimes wonder if I'll live long enough 2 find out for sure! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
But I'm not going 2 let it get me down. ...this morning, as I was saying goodbye, I leaned over my W's desk and kissed her goodbye. She said "You're silly." So I responded "I know." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
But we can see this relationship differently. Through the grace of God, it can become a healing environment rather than an emotional torture chamber. Then I think I can work on those parts of myself, and you can work on those parts of you. We can even grow beyond these things. I just need you to know that I am trying. Please share with me, but try not to attack or judge me for these wounds I carry. And I will try my best to do the same for you. Then holiness will be served here, and the relationship can deepen.
Forgive me, if you can, and I vow to try to forgive you."
Wow, good stuff Weaver.
Appy, it does feel good to have someone crazy in love with you but sometimes it gets in the way of truth. My stbx was never crazy in love with me but we had loads of fun early on in our R. I often feel I married the wrong person for the wrong reasons but yet I often have felt those in love feelings for him. I would rather have the deep, I know you and love you anyway feelings.
Genesis: "Snowbound" [not like it ever snows in LA!]
"Lay your body down upon the midnight snow, Feel the cold of winter in your hair. Here in a world of your own, In a casing that's grown To a childrens' delight That arrived overnight.
And here they come to play their magic games, Carving names upon your frozen hand. Here in a world of your own, Like a sleeper whose eyes Sees the pain with surprise As it smothers your cries They'll never never know.
Hey there's a Snowman! Hey, Hey what a Snowman! Pray for the Snowman! Ooh, Ooh what a Snowman! They say a snow year's a good year Filled with the love of all who lie so deep.
Smiling faces tear your body to the ground, Covered red that only we can see. Here in a ball that they made From the snow on the ground. See it rolling away. Wild eyes to the sky. They'll never, never know.
Hey there's a Snowman! Hey what a Snowman! Pray for the Snowman! Ooh, Ooh what a Snowman! They say a snow year's a good year Filled with the love of all who lie so deep.
Hey there goes the Snowman! Hey there what a Snowman! Hey there lies the Snowman! Hey he was a Snowman! They say a snow year's a good year Filled with the love of all who lie so deep."
Another trip. Going to the West Coast. Not presenting much at AGU, just manning a poster for a few hours on Tuesday. The rest of the week I'll be browsing and rubbing elbows. And carousing a little, since most of my old friends from grad school will be there too. Like 2long said, "just to go" mainly. But hey, my bosses have been taking credit for my work for long enough.
I'll bookend the trip staying with my friends in Redwood City. They're sort of my best friends.
In one of the Boulder groups we work with, there's a girl. I've spoken on the phone with her once or twice, and now and then we swap a few emails, but I've never met her. One of my colleagues met her last year. She said this girl had asked about me. I mentioned AGU to her in an email yesterday, and a flurry of "see you there", "okay, see you there", "okay, see you there" emails followed. Delightful.
Maybe I'll play hooky one day and borrow my friend's car and go somewhere. I've tooled around Marin County quite a bit, and I've been to Napa once--I'll only go back if I've got a reservation at the French Laundry. I wonder what else I could do for a day trip...
Sorry I don't have anything else to write about. The dust of the last 1.5 years is just finally settling. And that whole business is still on my mind all the time.
I have had time to get that new amplifier though. She's a work of art. Hand made, right down to the speakers.
One thing my friends and I like 2 be sure and do during the week is hit the Magnolia Pub and Brewery in the Haight Ashbury district. Good beer. Good burgers and stuff.
Hey, you ought 2 see if you can hook up with JL while you're there. He goes. I met redhat, AMM and a few others while I was there last year, 2.
Nothing else to tell. I work, play music, swim, try to keep my house. Keeping it to just a few things for a while.
Jayne and the Giraffe will hold down the fort here on the High Ground.
GC
Oh.... I gotta stop speed reading. LOL!!! I clicked on your link and wonder....what?!??!!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Have fun in the bay area. If you can hook up with RH and JL that w/b fun. I lived in the bay area but never had the privilege of meeting JL. RH & I are buds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> He's like my younger bro'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
2L, I am mad at you. You came to the bay area and I didn't get to meet you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Sorry I don't have anything else to write about. The dust of the last 1.5 years is just finally settling. And that whole business is still on my mind all the time.
{{GC}} So you are leaving town? Robby is headed your way! LOL I hope meeting up with this girl is a fun experience for you. Northern Cal is so beautiful. Have a good trip.
GC, if you meet up with JL, give him a hug from me. And tell him no, I haven't heard from Tully. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Tell him I fell in love; he'll probably be delighted.
Come to think of it, I should e-mail Tully and tell him. He'll be delighted, too. (Tully was my boss a few years back, and he was JL's best man. Weird how that stuff works sometimes.)
I haven't had a reason 2 go 2 the islands in a number of years. About 10, ac2ally. Then, I night assisted a colleague on the IRTF a few nights. Had my family fly out 2 Kona at the end of that and met with them and spent a week driving around the island. It was fun.
I'm still around......just been reading the last while, but I is good these days. The cold has finally hit here and a bit of snow too. I like it. Time for skating and hot chocolate with a splash of Baily's. Don't get me wrong though, a trip to the coast and the temparate climes would be nice too! Hope you have a great time.
It's a winter wonderland out there. Saturday, the brothers and a girlfriend of a brother came over and we did Christmas stuff. Bought the tree at 3:30 and by 7:45 the entire inside and outside of the house were decorated, dinner was made, eaten, and cleaned up, DD was in her PJs with her teeth brushed, and we were sitting by the fire reading books. We've had a fire in the fireplace each night since then, courtesy of my brother.
This same brother bought the Christmas tree and the wreath and the poinsettias. He also took the time to make a pumpkin pie the other night. I had a piece of it last night and it is, as it always is when he makes it, fantastically good.
Last night it finally snowed. Three or four inches of the stuff when all was said and done, much of it after we went to bed. It was lovely last night, and when I opened the front door this morning, I was treated to that blue and white wonderland that only comes with freshly fallen snow. Even though I was ten minutes late already, and had another five minutes of cleaning off the car to do, I took five seconds and just drank it in. Though I can't look into the distance from my urban neighborhood, there are times when it's lovely here anyway.
Conversation is important to her, and though I don't guess we are her only friends it has been on my mind.
Faithful, I think about you too, but you seem to be coping pretty well - all things considered anyway. I hope your support network is holding up well, and that you get some days off from the stress.
If not, try a vacation. 6 months would be about right, and just planning it would help a little bit, even if you can't take it.
Longest one I have taken is about a month, and it was nice except for going back to work after we got home.
I went out to visit J, but I didn't know where she lived then.
Time to go, have a dinner to attend tonight.
I'm reading Gray, and thinking. I still think you'll do well.
Today I met my acquaintance from elsewhere. She came over, said my name with a question mark, and introduced herself. I put my eyeballs back in my head, and we talked for a good hour. We got along famously. Naturally, she's engaged.
Recently I heard that another one I tried to go out with is engaged.
RH just sent me his phone #. If you want to e-mail me, you can or you can check RH's profile to see if he still has his addy listed there. He says you can call him but I don't want to put his phone# on this thread.
If not, try a vacation. 6 months would be about right, and just planning it would help a little bit, even if you can't take it.
I am really interested in this advice. I keep thinking about it SS and thinking it is what I need to do. Something about finding out what your dreams are, visualizing them and starting the motions.
Can you elaborate?
Gray,
The times are strange for you, because something great is coming around the corner. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
6 month vacation? Hmmm...from work or life? My boy is getting almost too big for me to handle and I am facing caring for him on my own more. I am ok, SS all things considered but still sad and grieving.
Weaver, I was just having fun (mostly) not trying to convey any big thing.
It's just that sometimes you can take your mind, and change directions with it, and........ a change is as good as a rest.
Then you can come back and cope.
Gray, I've been thinking about this song for a couple of weeks now. Not sure why, but I keep thinking I should type it out for you. I'm confused, because I think you are past this by quite a ways. Oh well, here it is.
It's from memory, so I could mis quote, but here goes.
From the play "Saturdays Warrior"
I take some paper in my hand and with a pencil draw a man. The dream of what I'd really, really like to be.
A man with courage in his brow, who's licked his doubts and fears somehow. A warrior of great nobility.
But who am I, just a wandering kid. A cypher on the wall, Not even great at all.
And where's my dream like his that I could fight for, And where's my cause like his, that I would die for? But still that papers in my hand, and every day I sketch the man, the dream of what I'd really like to be.
My conscience says I should be him, I guess I should at least begin. But if I did, I'd probably strike out.
Faithful, I know you are doing the best you can, and I encourage you. I think I have some things I want to say to you too. I'll think on it (precious little time for thinking lately) and maybe post to you tomorrow. Maybe. I hope.
Weaver, You seem to be doing so well, but I know there are loose ends. I hope you get them all tied up, and taken care of, and I hope you have the best year ever next year.
BTW, if you don't think a six month vacation will work, go for the full year. May as well think big.
J, I have not given over much time to thinking lately. I hope you are well. You have a lot going on these days - inside, as well as out. I keep praying for you, and trust that you will know what to do. Happy trails.
Kimmy, I guess no news is good news from you, take care of everyone, I know you can.
SLH, I worry. Please tell me I'm wrong to worry this time.
2long, you are often on my mind. I keep praying for you guys too. Hope son, and daughter are well.
Faithful, I was thinking yesterday about Christmas. Stats tell us that for some this is a happy time, and for some it is a sad time.
Isn't that interesting. At least, I found it so. And..... it's easy to see how one can be sad to live through a season of celebration when events have changed the very fabric of our lives.
I was thinking about you. How you react to stress (many times by helping here, instead of feeling sorry for yourself.)
I realize there are down times for you. I know there must be. What I see though, is a person that remains helpful and outgoing to others even when she is down herself.
I don't know what Christmas has been for you. I don't know all the changes that are taking place this year, compared to past years. I could go on and on about what I DON'T know about you, but instead let me tell some things that I do know.
I know you have been through he11 these past few months, but that you haven't been destroyed by it.
I know you can reach out and help others in the midst of your own dark days.
I know you have changed for the better, and are changing still.
Now, sometimes we think that if we take this, or that from Christmas, it will no longer be Christmas.
I learned from watching "How the Grinch stole Christmas" that you can take the gifts, and it will still be Christmas. I have watched people over the years, and I see that Christmas is something that is in your heart, not something that comes from shopping those adds we see in the paper.
So, I wanted to tell you I see it in your heart, and I wanted to wish you a Merry Christmas......... believing that you are capable of having one even with all the trials you are living through right now.
Merry Christmas to a noble spirit. May your children catch the spirit of what Christmas really is by watching you this year. May they always know that Christmas is in your heart, becasuse of God's gift to us of his son, so many years ago. That non returable, life changing gift. May they understand that he lives, because you understand it and show it by your life - lived one day at a time.
Thank you for your example. You warm my heart.
Please tell us how it goes for you. Both the good, and the bad. We care.
Merry Christmas to a noble spirit. May your children catch the spirit of what Christmas really is by watching you this year. May they always know that Christmas is in your heart, becasuse of God's gift to us of his son, so many years ago. That non returable, life changing gift. May they understand that he lives, because you understand it and show it by your life - lived one day at a time.
Thank you for your example. You warm my heart.
Please tell us how it goes for you. Both the good, and the bad. We care.
God bless you, SS. You really touched me with that thank you. I love Christmas, it is my little girls bday and the day we celebrate the birth of our savior. Everything else is icing on the cake.
I missed an important anniversary the other day... ...and bein' how's I've been here for so bloody long, and have so many famous and infamous anniversaries 2 celebrate, I'm going 2 choose this one.
Back 3 years ago, on the 9th, I self-immolated and Qfwfq was born. Maybe I should self-immolate my other self now, so I can celebrate that 3 years from now?...:
"2long is daid! (sung 2 the 2ne of “Poor Jud is Daid”)" - 2long's bass 2rdization of "Oklahoma"
"2long is daid, ol’ 2long is daid; All gather ‘round his coffin now and cry. He had a heart of gold and he wasn’t very old, Oh, why did such a fella have 2 die?
2long is daid, ol’ 2long is daid; He’s lookin’ oh, so peaceful and serene (and serene!). He’s all laid out 2 rest with his hands across his chest; His fingernails have never been so clean.
Why then the preacher’d get up and he’d say: “Folks, we’re gathered 2gether here 2day 2 moan and groan over brother 2long, who hung himself from that 2x4 in the rafters of the MB smokehouse.” (Then there’d be weepin’ and wailin’, from some of the MB posters) Then he’d say: “2long was the most misunders2d man on the 4um. People used 2 think he was a mean, ugly fella; used 2 think he was a dirty skunk and orn’ry pig stealer.”
But the folks who really knowed him, know that beneath the 2 gaudy Converse All-Stars that he always wore, There throbbed a stubbed big toe as big as all outdoors (as big as all outdoors!). 2long loved his fellow Mber.
He loved the birds of the forest, He loved the beasts in the field, He loved the mice and vermin and he treated the rats like equal (which was right). He loved everybody and everything, he loved the OP only…only he never let on, so nobody ever knowed it.
2long is daid, ol’ 2long is daid; His friends’ll weep and wail for miles around (miles around!). The daisies in the dell will give out a different smell Because 2long is underneath the ground.
2long is daid, a candle lights his haid. He’s layin’ in a coffin made of wood (wood!). And folks are feelin’ sad ‘cause they used 2 treat him bad, But now they know their friend is gone for good (good!).
2long is daid, a candle lights his haid. He’s lookin’ oh, s’purdy and s’nice. He looks like he’s asleep, it’s a shame that he won’t keep, But it’s summer and we’re runnin’ out of ice. 2… …long 2… …long"
Like I told Pep recently, these days we have so-so days, and not so so-so days.
I'm thinking of offering 2 pay for some heavy MC soon. Our 30th anniversary is coming up, and my W would "seem" 2 rather just keep on keeping on. Not much closeness, but some.
RM's b-day week (1st week of Dec) was very rough, though nothing was said about it, as was my W's B-day (2.5 months ago). I don't THINK there was contact, but I'm through speculating about it.
Been browsing old car ads. This one seems appropriate somehow...
SS, that poem still applies, though not quite like before.
The other day I was in a restaurant in SF and a woman fell down. In another life I'd have waited to see if someone else would do something. This time I jumped up. I think that was a good sign.
She was fine. Just slipped on a piece of lettuce.
There is still doubt though.
I'm a loser Orchid. I had a way to at least meet JL, but didn't do it because... oh man, don't hate me... because during the time when that opportunity came up, my friend and I were ditching out of AGU and record shopping at Amoeba.
"I have to go where I'm invited or I shall be too lonely."
I had a great week in SF. Saw lots of friends, went out some, got sad, got happy, got my hopes up, got disappointed, got my hopes renewed, got excited about work, missed my guitar bad, ate at taquerias, came home with a still-in-wrapper Staple Singers record from 1967. And a nasty cold.
The Staples' cover of "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall" makes me shiverrrrrr. Or else I have the flu.
Was wondering where you disappeared to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Had us worried. So you stood up JL? Hope it was worth it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Hope u r feeling better. So u r a guitar man? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Staple Singers eh??!?!??! Hm.... nowadays kids will think they sing store commericals. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
SS, I'm doing well. I'm glad you're still talking to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hi GC! Be well.
I'm in the midst of Christmas/holiday/whatever baking and shopping and decorating. I think I've gained ten pounds in the last week! I'm having a wonderful time. HoFS and I went to the Mannheim Steamroller Christmas concert on Friday night. Beyoootiful. And on Sunday night we went to my holiday party. We're cute. I'll post pictures. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I met a very nice girl in SF. Two actually. But the first was spoken for. When I met the second, I was feeling very sick from dinner. I faked it, pretended not to be in pain. The pain got worse. I worked harder to fake being not sick. I talked and talked, asked this girl a million questions. I'm pretty sure she had no idea anything was wrong with me. But I was definitely not sorry when my friend said he needed to call it a night. My cab dropped me at my hotel. I slept in my clothes, exhausted from the effort of pretending not to be sick.
And so, GC, where was the very nice girl from? Do you have her e-mail address and phone number? Going to wait a few days and then send her an amusing note about something she might be interested in?
J said: SS, I'm doing well. I'm glad you're still talking to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm glad too, but why wouldn't I be?
Love the pictures. Thanks, it's so nice to see who we are talking to. Both of you look happy, I wonder why.
I know you still have a lot to think about - I think my life is much easier than yours right now.
I've been doing thinking too, but I am so slow at it. You have a quick mind, I admire that in you. Perhaps sometimes I go too long without writing - forgive me for that. I don't like to say things unless I feel I can say them the right way. There are things I would like to discuss with you, but I won't take time now. It bothers me, but I prioritize, and I do what honor requires of me. Life is full of trade offs, I have a hard time with it, but I see no change looming. I think it's a necesarry part of the test. ......... I'll continue to ponder.
Don't worry so much, smile more, and laugh a lot. I hear it's good for you. :-)
Because you hadn't in quite a while, SS, would be why I'm glad that you're talking to me and had wondered if you weren't. Sometimes you speak quickly, you know, when you have joyful and fun things to say. You take things slowly when they're more serious, or when you're not sure what to say. I don't know whether you stop talking to people altogether or not.
I spend a lot of time in places that make me very happy these days. In front of the fire in my fireplace, for example, and looking at the Christmas tree where HoFS and I took the pictures. Good places. More and more, I find that I'm not so willing to spend time in painful places. That's probably good.
And yeah -- we both are happy in ways that we have not been in a long time. Five years for me. I have the pictures to prove it. I don't know how long for him.
Sometimes when I look at these pictures, I'm reminded of the ones from five years ago, the last time I dressed up in fancy party clothes. I'm not sure that it's good to compare them, and yet how can I not?
It's very odd, looking at pictures of myself side-by-side. There's something so eerie about how similar I look. I feel as though there should be something so much more profoundly different. And yet all I can see is that I've gained 20 pounds and I'm not doing kung fu these days. My hair is longer. And there's something in my eyes that's different. Some edge that was once there, and is not there anymore. A level of calm and peace that comes through in a very subtle sort of way.
And the person I'm standing next to.... is not the same.
And that's it. Other than that, you'd never know. And that's just weird. I look at the pictures and I think that surely I've aged a thousand years since that party five years ago. Surely that should show on my face as much as it has marked my soul.
And then I wonder whether maybe I am more the same between those pictures than I was in all the time in between. Standing with someone I love in both of them, joyful, spending time all dressed up with people I enjoy.
Makes me wonder what kind of fools play with fire more than once.
Makes me wonder how I got so lucky, to love this way twice.
Some edge that was once there, and is not there anymore. A level of calm and peace that comes through in a very subtle sort of way.
And the person I'm standing next to.... is not the same.
And that's it. Other than that, you'd never know. And that's just weird. I look at the pictures and I think that surely I've aged a thousand years since that party five years ago. Surely that should show on my face as much as it has marked my soul.
And then I wonder whether maybe I am more the same between those pictures than I was in all the time in between. Standing with someone I love in both of them, joyful, spending time all dressed up with people I enjoy.
Makes me wonder what kind of fools play with fire more than once.
Makes me wonder how I got so lucky, to love this way twice.
Makes me wonder if I'm crazy.
You are no fool girl, you are a brave and beautiful woman...opening up your heart again. What a joyous, wonderful, inspirational thing for you to do.
You are different now, you have blossomed into a woman...one who has stepped into the fire knowing full well the pain of being burned.
And I am so very happy for you both, and if you fall again you will both fall more softly this time, with the full knowledge of what it truly means to love, and to survive...and to go on and love again.
You know you can survive anything now when it comes to loving another adult, so you are free to love well... and with all you have.
Then Monday we headed for the Grand Canyon. We camped Monday Night at twin point and caught the early morning sun, but it was soon covered by clouds. Twin Point Sunrise
There is a sawmill site near green springs canyon. It burned down, and they never did go back and saw up the logs. Some of the logs, and some of the equipment still remains at the site. These are good shots of AD too - Log Pile at sawmill site Old Truck cab
Finally, we visited Tuweep - Here's AD and I AD& SS
Last year when I was there, I pulled into that lot, then sat in my car and spent a few minutes all weepy. That was the last cryin' I did while I was out there.
I can't believe it was more than a year ago. I don't know how I managed. People can handle a lot.
Lovely photos SS! I so want to see the Grand Canyon. You and AD look as nice in the pics as you are on here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
My huge and heartfelt thanks to SS for his hospitality!!
Great photos too. I like the one that says "AD at Zion". I had to look at it a looooong time to see a little tiny guy way down the trail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
-AD
... and 2Long, I thought you were better than than to post a "poem" like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Wow....cool pics boys. SS, I gotta get me down there sometime in my life. As you know, we have some spectacular vistas here, but that is just soooooo much different than I'm used to.
I would love to drive down there on a motorcycle. Maybe get me one of them fancy schmancy BMW thingys. That would be a memorable trip.
Well Ad, it looked pretty good on my 21 inch monitor at work, but when it's reduced, and optimized for the web, it isn't quite the same. Sorry. Maybe it's just because you are so skinny, and it's hard to see you?
Gray, I wish you could have been with us, you would have liked the places we went. I still wonder about your trip (summer 2004), and if you got what you needed out of it. One thing about traveling with self - if self starts to run you down, there is no one to argue the other side. Sometimes it's good to have someone else along as a control.
Thank-you SS, you are generous with you thoughts and prayers.
I too anticipate some tough times. I expect to be struck with a wave of melancholy during this, my first Christmas morning without my children present. I won’t be surprised by the feeling itself, but possibly the depth of it. I will survive though.
I’ve had to see my STBX on several occasions as of late. On Thursday was my son’s Christmas concert. I took my aging and increasingly frail mother to see her grandson. STBX chatted with her and hugged her after the concert; she walked away from my mother crying. I don’t have the capacity to hate that woman. I wish I did sometimes; I just don’t have it in me though.
I hope you and yours have a wonderful Christmas SS, those wishes are extended to all you folks on this thread. Posting here on occasion feels like putting on that favorite old shirt sometimes….familiar and comfortable.
I think I may take the kids out to the cabin over the holidays. Mountain air seems to clear and focus the mind.
I noticed you were posting here and wanted to say thanks to you. You helped me for a while at SYMC when my STBXH was withdrawn and angry. I have tried to post there since but couldn't log on. We worked with Penny for a while so I sent her the update last year. We separated over a year ago, will never know for sure whether H. ever ended his A. According to the math, he knocked up OW the day after he moved out(2nd pregnancy for those 2). There was no abortion this time and he claims they are getting married when our D. is final. He worked hard for that and deserves it I guess.
Anyway, thanks again for your thoughtful insight and your time. You helped a bunch. I am fine BTW, relieved to be on my own after living with uncertainty for so long.
HoFs posted to me too, way back when. I know all about his mess from Ps thread. How is P anyway? Last I heard, he and HoFs were still in touch.
Happy Holidays to you and everyone else on this thread.
Hi Starving -- You're very welcome for the help we were able to give you. I'm sorry to hear that your marriage didn't make it, and glad to hear that YOU are recovering and healing. I hope that your soon-to-be-ex and his affair partner are able to heal enough to raise their child in a healthy and whole way.
I've re-sent the registration details to your e-mail address of record, which might help you to log in. If not, please send me an e-mail at the address below and I'll see what else we can do to get you logged in.
Penny, HoFS, and I are all doing very well these days. Penny and her husband have been through some really hard times in the last year, and seem to have come through it even stronger than they were. It's really amazing to see the growth and healing in her family this last year. Happy holidays to you, too!
Today I discovered that it's too soon to go looking through my personal papers and stuff from '04. I was looking for a list of addresses in there, and...
Last night I went out with two friends for a few drinks. While I was out, I saw one of the regulars from the place where the giraffe works. Just like at the giraffe's pub, he was alone with a book.
Later, as we were getting ready to leave, I saw another guy alone with a book. Another normal looking dude, all by himself having a beer and readinge.
I've been those guys. I am those guys. It's got me unsettled.
Today I discovered that it's too soon to go looking through my personal papers and stuff from '04. I was looking for a list of addresses in there, and...
Last night I went out with two friends for a few drinks. While I was out, I saw one of the regulars from the place where the giraffe works. Just like at the giraffe's pub, he was alone with a book.
Later, as we were getting ready to leave, I saw another guy alone with a book. Another normal looking dude, all by himself having a beer and readinge.
I've been those guys. I am those guys. It's got me unsettled.
GC
So? What's the matter with those guys, out reading and having a beer? It sounds kind of cool to me. Heck guys who can even read a book seem cool to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (you know where I live and what type of people are around here mostly, so you know what I mean by that statement)
Because I grew up in the USAF Gray, we moved a lot (every year almost), and I never really felt too comfortable in my own skin, mostly because as soon as I got settled into school and started to make friends we moved again. Constant change, and constantly having to change.
Anyway my mom had a saying which I think of now when I am feeling uncomfortable about who I am such as at meetings when I have to travel out of town -
"bloom where your planted"
Meaning, be who you are regardless of where you are, or who is around, or what your circumstances are. It has served me well, that saying has, as an adult.
So? What's the matter with those guys, out reading and having a beer? It sounds kind of cool to me. Heck guys who can even read a book seem cool to me. (you know where I live and what type of people are around here mostly, so you know what I mean by that statement
I agree with Weaver, GC. In fact I would be more inclined to WANT to meet one of those men who are comfortable reading in public like that.
Didn't mean to give you the wrong idea. I do those solitary, public things all the time. It makes me happy, being out and relaxing and not trolling for company.
I just had a momentary glimpse of myself from an outsider's perspective, and that's always peculiar.
My family recruited me to do Christmas again this year. The difference is, I offered to do all the cooking this time. My family's traditional Christmas Eve dinner is Polish peasant food, free of meat and dairy products - pure glucose! Pierogi, rice w/mushroom gravy, honey bread, and onions onions onions. All week I thought I was ahead, preparing pierogi fillings and assembling ingredients.
Well I'm in deep tonight. I've made about 30 pierogi. I have about 100 more to do. My house needs cleaning. I have no Christmas tree. I'm doing laundry. I'm out of dish soap. I'm DEAD.
On the other hand... this morning I had an hour to kill before going to the barber. I hit a record store to drop off some of my band's CDs, and bought some super cool records. A few minutes ago my next door neighbors saw me cooking (our kitchen windows are straight across from each other), took pity on me, and brought me a huge plate of cookies.
I have beer, fuel, fire, and rock and roll. I can go all night.
Gray, I hope you get a turn at that with your own rug rats one of these days. You would be good at it.
Notice......... that we asked Weaver what her plans were and she never answered. Does that mean what I think it does? Or, did I miss it? Edited to add - I just missed it. You already told us. Duhhh - SS needs to get some sleep.
Merry Christmas J.
Merry Christmas Faithful. I've been wondering about your plans too. I hope you have a very happy day.
The food sounds good, I admit that.
Kimmy, I expect a full report of what's for dinner.
2long, I salute you - The gentle Giant. I have to think that salutation would please you. What a great man in so many ways.
Binder, one of these days I'll come by and see you. There are places I'd like to walk again.
Shule, on the odd chance that you'll do one of your fly by's - Merry Christmas.
Hi SLH, Glad you are doing a little better.
And, who ever I forgot, I'm sorry. I always forget someone, even if I write it down.
GC - I need that list of books. Plus - I want one of your CDs. (I am a pro sound engineer/novice musician)
Oh - wait - I have kids. I will not get a chance to read for another 10 years.
Sounds like good food. I took the easy way - I stuffed a piece of cow and some veggies and a couple of packaged soups in the crock pot, and pushed "cook". It'll do.
Merry Christmas to you. I am still pondering your question. I have plenty of my own.
Thank-you for the well wishes Weaver, the house feels pretty empty this AM, but I am getting all the wrapping done before the kids get here at 2.
I think 2005 has been trying for you as well. I do see a woman that has exploited her troubles as an opportunity for personal growth though. May 2006 not bring you so many such “opportunities”.
GC - I posed your question to my boss - the assistant pastor at a big church - he has an earned doctorate - I think in psychology. His answer is obviously Biblically based - but it is fairly succinct.
Your question was something like: "But just so we're all on the same page... ALL the major faiths in the world disapprove unambiguously of infidelity. In Christianity, God disapproves of infidelity. Why?"
His answer: "Hi, God's order in the universe is based on His nature and reality. This have been revealed to us through His communication in the Word. It is here that we learn of the created order in the beginning (Genesis) where His intended creation was male and female becoming one to partake of His essential nature. Mal. 2 asks the question, "Why one?"... He desires Godly offspring.. this is all the fulfillment of His desire for us to be fruitful and to multiply and subdue the earth. That we would enjoy God and the nature of true love. Infidelity defiles this order and hence His blessing to experience His nature and the true nature of love. Infidelity and all other sins have this same root origin. God is not holding back the fun of multiple relationships... His nature is to bless us and it is in living within His ordered plan that the blessings exist. M."
This may help in your quest for knowledge of why the Christian faith feels about (infidelity) (sin) what it does.
That's really interesting, FaR, Thanks for sharing it.
SS, I hope you had a wonderful Christmas, too. And Weaver, Binder, GrayCloud, FoundAReason, FF, KiwiJ, Gimble, cc46 (stop by sometimes; we don't bite!), 2long, AD, Orchid, Shul, Aphelion, and all the people who I didn't mention, some of whom have never posted on this thread and who nonetheless read it, who celebrate Christmas. Or any other winter festival.
I've just returned from a trip to Northern WI (Door County, for those who know the area) and returned with a wicked cold and many other presents. Changes in cabin pressure -really- stink when your head is that congested.
The rest of the weekend was wonderful. Fantastic food and drink and sweets -- none of which I cooked (for the first time in 35 years, I think!). Good fun. A game of Scrabble. Fires in the fireplace. A small child in pajamas with feet putting out cookies and milk and later, because of the odd situation I'm in, taking bites of those same cookies and milk after she'd put the apples and oranges in the stockings. Opening presents in the same place and time and way that I've opened presents many times before. Except that my ex wasn't there and my daughter was. Odd, that switch. Walking with the dog in the cold winter air, throwing a stick for her and laughing as she slid on the icy pavement. Going back to the fire and making s'mores. Ambrosia, my mom's family recipe. 7 Layer Bars, a recipe from The Site That Shall Not Be Mentioned, made by HoFS, sent to my parents' home. Chocolate from the confectioner in my home town. Thai stir fry hot enough to curl your hair one night, succulent beef tenderloin with roasted potatoes and vegetables the next.
A wonderful weekend. Absolutely unhealthy, all in all, and that's just fine with me. I'm going to go take a long, hot bath and then begin my long winter's nap. Wake me up when the daffodils bloom, ok?
I would chatter more, but the bath is calling. My head is full of snot and steam seems like a reeeeeeeally good idea.
I thought it was time to stop by and see how you were doing. I miss all of you my friends. I wish there were a way to repay those that helped save my marriage.
Wow. AW (even though I'm a bad mini) and SCHLUTER? What a surprise. The least you could do is give an update, dude. AW, I think of Aussie all the time. Every time they say "Afghanistan" in the news I think of him.
I'm on vacation this week, so naturally I'm a night owl. Tonight after band rehearsal I went to a rock club with my friends. A cover band was playing. The regular club-goers were so put off by the presence of a cover band, they all retreated to the basement bar. The upstairs was abandonded. The band wasn't even all that bad. But they were a COVER BAND. Geez. Dudes, write a song. C'mon already. You can do it.
I'm getting ready to go to a New Years' party where I'll know almost nobody. I may bring a buddy, but I'm inclined to go alone, partly because it's harder that way. The person throwing the party is way cool, and she has a million friends, but I'm sure there will be moments when I'm standing around with my thumb up my butt. I should take the challenge. Hopefully the night won't be a washout.
Aaaaanyway, hope everybody's doing good.
I owe Weaver a debt, and I hope I'll figure a way to pay it. Hi Weaver. Dig me capitalizing your fake name.
I'm getting ready to go to a New Years' party where I'll know almost nobody. I may bring a buddy, but I'm inclined to go alone, partly because it's harder that way. The person throwing the party is way cool, and she has a million friends, but I'm sure there will be moments when I'm standing around with my thumb up my butt. I should take the challenge. Hopefully the night won't be a washout.
very brave of you, something I have always struggled with myself. I hope you have the time of your life!
J, I think it was a very "healthy" time for you even with the unhealthy food. You sound wonderful and what a great time with your DD! Made my heart sing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Well you wanted an update so I will try to make it small as not to ruin the campfire theme.
As you know it has been a battle of wits on my end to save my marriage and of course if you could do it wrong, I did it wrong from LB's to beating up the OM and so forth.
We went through MC's like water until we found a young woman who cared enough to tell us both to grow up and knock it off.
I landed a dream job with Cingular as a District Manager and loving it. The kids are doing great. My oldest Taryn is going on a trip to DC in the summer and has her first Dance coming up.
Cindy and Me are doing actually really well. We spend quality time together at night and go over everything for that day. We provide each other with a daily schedule of events so as we know where each other is every minute of the day.
Cindy calls me once a day on her own and sends me cute emails all day long. We both have a long road ahead of us but so far it seems like a nice walk on a very long road.
I found that life is to short and when I realized that I was fighting for love and not out of being the guy made a fool out of it made a diffrence.
Cindy and I go on dates now and spend as much time as we can with the kids. When I have a bad day she is more caring and understanding.
The mc says we are making what she calls Love leaps and she finds we are back to being somewhat new to life and love.
I wish I had the time to read all 300 pages of your Campfire, So how are you doing my friend?
Michael, It is good to know you are truely in recovery. I was so worried aabout you for so long, but I didn't know how to help.
I think it will be slow over the holiday, it looks like many are off doing other things this week.
Faithful, You are so sweet. You do know it, don't you? If you keep on like you are, you will be ok in the long run. Keep talking to us and getting support for the short run.
I need to do better this next year. SS Laughs. I am sure I will do better.
I am internet-less still , and I am at the public library in town.
Just wanted to say hi and give you an update.
We are all living together at home still. Getting along okay- no violence.
He said that he broke up with her back in November, but evidence suggests otherwise.
I confronted him and he denied it. Went on the offensive, and even denied past things that I had hard evidence for. Stayed out all night and then said that if I accuse him of something he will do it.
So I can't even talk to him about it.
Its an insane game, and I feel like I am going crazy at times. I cry when I am alone.
But there have been moments lately when he has shown me love and tenderness, and he has been great with our daughter. She is much happier than before.
I went to a party earlier, but bailed out around 11:00.
I came home and my roommate and his girlfriend came down and rang in the new year with me.
At midnight, when my ex was always gung ho for a big new year's smooch, I had nothing like that, 'cept a kiss on the head from my roommate's girlfriend, who is too cool for the room. Just for the record, this was not some sob sister occasion. I was just as cool as a cuke, and she crawled over and did it. No big whoop.
Anyway, we did a small ritual. A few years ago my oldest brother gave sparrow and me a log for our fireplace. I don't really remember what the point was, but sparrow and I always called it the anniversary log. The tree it came from was cut down the year we were married, I think. It's been there on my porch all this while, but tonight I burned that MF.
I'm listening to my recent favorites, the Staple Singers, doing, Dylan's "A Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall".
I have been thinking a ton about this idea, which is not new to me, but whose name, called "kenosis", is new.
I think I'm close to forgiving my ex. I'm starting to think I might be able to do it without her help.
But no hurry.
Happy new year. Fire's going. Anniversary log is ashes. New logs is burnin'.
I looked up the meaning of "kenosis" Gray, and could not find anything simple and quick to define it.
But if it is the path which speaks to you and brings peace than I say HURAH for you!!!!!!
PS - no need to thank me for a quote which belongs to someone else (per an earlier post of yours), although I did "do" just that...took what was broken, the places which hurt and made them my "parachute", but after all what choice did I have? It was either that or become fractured by the fall.
Hope we get to at least read the lyrics to the song someday though, if not listen to it.
I was out burning my Christmas tree (along with the accumulated brush pile) - and just thought I'd drop in on the campfire thread.
XW and I bought it together when she was talking about reconciliation - and, apparently, talking to OM in the background. False recoveries happen even after the D - if you let them. Last one, Please!
It was a nice tree - would have been fine in the house for another week.
Pity XW bought it. Otherwise I would have kept it.
We had a good rain last night so it shouldn't be a problem, but it's a bit breezy, so I'd better head back out there and check on things.
AD, I read your thread but didn't want to join the "move on" chorus and didn't want to run down your ex, so I kept still.
I could use a cigarette. I quit smoking last year, but boy I could go for one right now. And no, there's no alcohol in my body.
I wish they sold singles. But anyway there's freezing rain. Walking to the gas station for smokes would be absurd, driving would be absurder. Any besides, no way am I buying cigarettes just 'cause I'm in a funk.
It's possible I've missed a brief glimpse of it, but I'm pretty sure there's been no sunshine or blue sky here in Minneapolis for about two weeks. Shadow? What's that?
It's possible I've missed some, but since some very nice possibilities I passed on (out of principle) in 2004... I haven't met a single promising woman since my divorce. Not one. This is bad. I gotta change this.
I watched The 40-Year-Old Virgin the other day. It was stupid and funny as he!!. And scary. I'm almost that dude, only a little less of a nerd and not a virgin. Scary.
Oh, and I like sex as much as the next guy, and I don't have that character's morning "problem". Uh oh. Digging a little here... Okay, I'm exactly like that dude, except not at all. Wait. He's made up, right?
Oh, but and you know all those collectible action figures? I don't have any of those.
But wait. One of my friends, who had to fight women off with a baseball bat until he finally got together with a great girl and got married, does. All over his house.
Okay never mind the stupid 40-year-old virgin. But you know how hard up I am? I'm this close to going on bittorrent and getting some creepy how-to-pick-up-chicks seminar-on-CD. Thiiiiiiissssssssss close!
Or maybe just as I'm about to, Catherine Keener will fall in love with me for being a terrific fella.
Or better yet, Naomi Watts. She's swell.
What was I talking about before I starting dreaming about movie actresses? I think I blacked out.
Okay, I'd never sent a fan letter before. That one I sent to Naomi Watts was my first. I swear it. I even wrote, right there at the start of the letter, "Dear Ms. Watts, I've never sent a fan letter before..."
I'm sure she gets mail from 35-year-old men all the time. Guys just like me.
Me? I have an excuse. PBS just ran a show about our rovers, so I had 2 wait for that 2 end, then I went downstairs and my son's "friend" who's been living with us (only one more week!) had 3 friends over playing magic cards in the kitchen. I'll be going down in a few minutes and tossing them out, as I expect they're not gone yet (though I asked them 2 go home 2 hours ago).
If I were 2 send a fan letter (2old for that kind of stuff, really), it'd be 2 Scarlett Johannsen.
But I wouldn't. Really, I wouldn't. 2old, remember?
Whoops. Okay, besides the letter I wrote to Scarlett Johannsen, the one to Naomi Watts was the only one ever for me. But really the thing I wrote Scarlett wasn't so much of a fan letter. More of an essay really. Maybe essay is the wrong word. More like "epic poem" I guess. Except a limerick.
Strolled in our fine fellow GreyCloud, Decked out in his finest grey shroud. At his side was good Scarlett, not some cheap two-bit starlet, My brothers, he made us all proud!
Cute AD, and clever too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I have a question for all of you guys. Have any one of you ever had to deal with lack of confidence and depression? I don't mean resulting from infidelity/divorce but as a general lifelong state of mind?
This new guy I am dating seems to suffer from depression. I think part of the problem is he works alone and lives alone so has very little to balance the negative thought processes of his mind. Very little positive influence from others.
He has lots of friends but they are mostly just for activities like golfing, bowling and biking...not confidants or real best buddies.
He says he feels like when he does try to speak up in social settings someone always talks over him and he ends up just shutting down completely. Like what he says is not important and often he is just ignored.
He is very quiet with a soft voice, so maybe no one can hear him, I don't know.
I was just wondering if any of you guys have felt this way and how you over came it.
Oh and he has a very poor outlook in general of people, thinking everyone is out to take advantage of others. And this may be a result of his divorce (wife's affair).
And I am not sure if I want to play therapist, as I don't want our relationship defined with me this way as I think it would be laying groundwork for roles I don't want to play. I want to be with a self-assured happy person but am willing to stick it out for awhile if he works on this himself.
I have a question for all of you guys. Have any one of you ever had to deal with lack of confidence and depression? I don't mean resulting from infidelity/divorce but as a general lifelong state of mind?
...
I was just wondering if any of you guys have felt this way and how you over came it.
Your question makes me think of that Stosny stuff they talk about over at SYMC.
Post over there and ask about it, because your fella's troubles might seem more clear when viewed through that lens.
When I'm in a social situation, and I feel uncomfortable (happens all the time), I try to remember that my discomfort isn't caused by the other people in the room so much as it's caused by my own old, bad feelings about myself.
We all have those, but we can learn not to approach life from that perspective.
I'll quit hopefully before anyone can accuse me of psychobabble.
Gray, my man, I read all that you wrote in the last couple days. My thought about it? You need to sleep after midnight, rather than posting. Your brain turns you in circles.
Weaver, if the man you're dating has a self-esteem problem of the level you're talking about..... then it's time to look at whether you're dating a grown-up or not. And if you're not, it's time to let him go figure out how to be a grownup. You can't help with that and it will kill you to try.
Compassion is hard sometimes. This one is hard. But.... I've known too many people like that. My ex is like that. Her new husband is like that, too. It will kill your soul.
My thoughts exactly J. It is to the extreme of being debilitating for him. He left Friday night late and drove the 7 hours back to Milwaukee, so all plans for NYE were off. And I cried myself sick on NYE over the disappointment and cancelled plans.
Have talked to him several times since then but he hasn't even been able to work. It gets that bad for him once he is triggered or something.
I did suggest he read some Steven Covey and also Carnegies" "How to Win Friends and Influence People", but I think I'll bow out now and see what happens on his end. Meaning I am going to start to move on and not think of him in terms of long term.
It does hurt though...so disappointing because I really do like him, and had such high hopes for us.
Graycloud, it's been along time. Wish I could share a cold beer with ya and turn my butt cheeks to fire. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Yeah, Weaver. I know how it feels. It's really hard when what you saw at first turns out to be only a part of a badly flawed whole. Because the good stuff is still there. It's just not... enough.
I guess this kind of thing happens eventually in all relationships. But if it happens this soon? Then it's time to move on without looking back.
"The thing about depression is... ...well, you just can't let it get you down."
-King Crimson, "ProzaKc Blues"
I've noticed a lot of negativity in my W lately, though over all she's a tad happier than her average for the past 15 years. Little things, like nit-picky criticisms and evaluations of the meanings of one or 2 sentence remarks made by someone 2 her recently.
Thing is, if you're looking for negativity, you'll sure as heck find it, even if it's not there.
I've been married 2 her now for 30 years, and I can ac2ally still remember times when she wasn't depressed all the time. And so long as I don't let myself get dragged down by it - and maybe find ways 2 2rn the negativity around, even if only briefly, I think the investment required is worth making.
But I wouldn't get married 2 someone with this much baggage 2 unload, unless they unloaded it first.
...when I was a teenager (really, I once was!) trying 2 have conversations in loud parties with loud friends, the single best way 2 get myself heard was 2 keep talking, softly, until they realized they might be missing something and shut the he!! up 2 find out what it was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
J, surely you know I was clowning last night! But you're right. I do go in circles. In the daytime, not one bit flaky. By night, a damned fool. Regardless, I mostly avoid posting about my own troubles these days. It's all so played.
Hey Tom. Been reading your stuff. I think turning away is the best thing.
Weaver, looks like you have another peak to climb.
Glad she's been a tad happier overall lately 2long. I don't envy her the day she invariably starts to feel remorse for the hurt she has caused you, although it will end up being a good thing on the old ladder of growth for her.
Me, I give optimism a bad name as I see things optimistically even when it is clearly foolish to do so.
Gray - I knew you were just chitten around. LOL Think J did too. And yes, the rollercoaster of my life goes on. Actually it's more like a ferris wheel and I am on the way up again, just hit a snag that's all. Yeah!
I don't think Spacecase would mind me posting this... ...but his xW apparently just realized the mistake she made, and he'll be DV'd for 2 years in a 2ple months! (he's in a new R, and not interested in going back)
I've read stories like that so many times on here the past 4 years (yes, it will be 4 years on the 19th! Or was that the 18th?). I just hope my W isn't one of them.
There needs 2 be regret for the A and remorse for the fallout 2 her loved ones. I think she's somewhat remorseful, but she said herself in September that she doesn't regret having the A. That's how I knew she hadn't started withdrawal before then, and why I've been sort of in 'oh my gawd' mode since then. I've been struggling with this nonsense for almost 4 years, and it's taken me all of that time 2 come 2 peace within. So I know it'll likely take her years, rather than months, 2 pull her head all the way out of her nether regions.
At least the A is off and she never left. If it resumed or she chose 2 leave at this point, my choice would be very simple and easy. In some ways, I need 2 remain vigilant that I don't interpret what I subliminally might "want" 2 see happen and make a hasty decision.
I think the high road at this point is 2 be patient, live my life, and try 2 really be there if and when she wants help, recognizing that it's going 2 take a while. Possibly a long while.
I don't think Spacecase would mind me posting this... ...but his xW apparently just realized the mistake she made, and he'll be DV'd for 2 years in a 2ple months! (he's in a new R, and not interested in going back)
If I'm not mistaken, he's got at least another 5 or 6 years.
i am about to be really rude ...
I always thought she was going trash diving with her choices .... I mean SPACE is one CLASSY guy ... and to go from HIM to a felon ????? Does her elevator go all the way to the top floor???
I always thought she was going trash diving with her choices .
I thought the article 2long posted by Collin Tipping (sp) re: radical forgiveness, described this type of behavior very nicely as "soulwork".
I know for me, now that I have regret, to think that the only reason I would have made such a stupid choice that I did was because I was an idiot... would be more than I could bare.
I have to know that there was a reason I almost detroyed my life, sanity and the peaceful happiness of my daughters home, a reason which would bring me closer to my higher self.
We will all complete our own soulwork eventually, no matter how many lifetimes it takes.
And in my less than better moments when I do think of him and think of him as a gross pig, I feel nauseated and the overwhelming sense of regret is suffocating.
Lets hope she has a chance one day to find peace for what she has lost at her own hands.
Pep, I luv you, you know...and I don't think you are mean, but I just had to chime in with my own little thoughts which came up reading that.
I had an interesting convo with my sister last week about labels. I'm mostly against them, though I sometimes recognize that affixing a label that's not nice, and harsh, can sometimes be just the jolt that needs giving - though xMrs SC isn't hearing it, I suppose.
I think she IS 'getting it', and though it might seem like it's 2 years 2 late, it's really probably right on time for what she needs 2 experience and learn at this point in time.
"I know for me, now that I have regret, to think that the only reason I would have made such a stupid choice that I did was because I was an idiot... would be more than I could bare."
I sense this inner 2rmoil, or something like it, going on in my W right now. I think it might keep a lot of FWSs stuck, just like some BSs who've been at their unilateral recovery for perhaps 2long - ahem - stay stuck.
"I have to know that there was a reason I almost detroyed my life, sanity and the peaceful happiness of my daughters home, a reason which would bring me closer to my higher self."
SS, my friend. Going to bed is not the same thing as going to sleep. Going to bed without going to sleep is far worse than just piddling around the house until completely exhausted, and then falling into a cold-coma kind of sleep. That's what I do - and just work with 4 or 3 hours of sleep each night - cuts down on the opportunies for thinking - 'cause thinking is painful. Last night (this morning) I went to bed at 5, and got up at 9. Of course, the first time I went to bed it was 2, but then I got up and read a book.
AD, I meant go to bed at 9, and be asleep by 9:05.
I know from my own life that it's not that easy, I was teasing Gray.
Sometimes I think we get cheated by the kind of work we do. I grew up farming, and sleep was easy to find after working 10 to 12 hours doing manual labor.
From my studies, I think regular exercise helps, but sometimes I don't have the self control to do that. I also once did a little research on sleep habits. One man ( can't remember his name) said he could re-train anyone to sleep, and wake at whatever times they wanted to have as their norm. He gave examples of how he did it for movie stars, sports jocks, and others that had formed bad habits. His success rate was very high, and one of the methods involved getting people up really early, and keeping them involved so the would be tired at night. Once he got them sleeping at the set time regularly, he would let them sleep later in the morning (to whatever time they wanted to sleep to) and it seemed to work.
It's that getting up at 4 am by our selves that makes this type of training difficult. He would do it for them(or to them, depending on how you look at it) until they got the habit down.
Hi J, I expect to hear all about your holiday. Not what you did, but how you felt, and how you feel. OK, what you did too, but the feelings will tell me how you are.
Faithful, How are you ?
Weaver, Sorry for the pain, I was hoping you could ditch that for a while. Are you OK now?
2long, Are you reall as detached as you want to be, or does it still hurt often?
No AD, I understand what you are saying. Next time, I'll do the bike ride twice as long, and finish at 9pm. That should do it for you.
My W is still getting up during the night and going downstairs 2 sleep in the spare bedroom most nights. She did that a little while ago, telling me she was just going 2 the bathroom. Now I'm wide awake again, and like AD would rather tire myself out before going back downstairs 2 bed than stare at a dark ceiling for the next 2ple hours.
"2long, Are you reall as detached as you want to be, or does it still hurt often? "
Do I want 2 be detached? Hm... I think that's necessary, especially under the circumstances, and probably healthy. But I do find myself wanting 2 also be unattached more often than I used 2. But it doesn't hurt that much anymore. More, I wonder if I should be doing something else.
Now nobody don't give me any trouble about being awake. I have tomorrow semi-off, and I went out with Jayne and the Giraffe.
We went to a new neighborhood bar. When we walked in, there were some craaaaazy girls in there, but nobody else. We sat down and ordered drinks. Two girls were goofing around, dancing and rasslin' and acting like maniacs.
One of them was very nice looking. All it took was looking over my shoulder and making eye contact, and she grabbed my shoulder to steady herself while she clowned with her friend.
Crazy drunk women. What fun. A few clever shucks and I'd be... ummmm, annoyed because a drunk pretty girl was throwing up in my toilet.
SS, thanks for asking about me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I will have an update on me soon. I am quiet now as I get myself together.
Pep, I luv you, you know...and I don't think you are mean, but I just had to chime in with my own little thoughts which came up reading that.
You love me ??? gee whiz, neat-o
Spacecase is a really special person. kind of awe-inspiring sort of guy, ya know. He's gentle, smart, educated, funny, Godly, talented, expressive, thoughtful .... the entire package .... and his wife decided to go with a felon in prison, abandoning her role as a mother at times, and was putting herself at risk by illegially visiting felon-OM in prison, pretending she was his blood relative .... I mean , seriously icky things for a mamma to do while her children were still at home. She was carrying messages from prison to "people" on the outside <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I imagine she was suffering a soul sickness if not a mental illness, or both.
People sometimes don't realize that not everything can be fixed once you break it. There are irretrievable errors we can make ... and I think that if we are to live soulful lives, we must be mindful of our eventual death. Living soulfully, we are aware that we will die someday, and that our legacy is how we lived.
Life is hard ... Choosing to run red lights at 100 MPH with my eyes closed is not really soul-searching, in my mind it is just dumb. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
and I have done dumb and dumber things ... and I think it is mostly our pridefulness that drives our stupid choices ... behaving as if the laws of nature and the laws of probabily, and the laws of God as we understand him, don't apply to us ... there is a little Faust in each of us ... wondering if we can get away with signing a (temporary) contract with the Devil
Pep, I love you too. I also like you - which I can't say about everyone I know.
I'm glad you are willing to speak from your heart. It is helpful.
For everyone else: W and I have a date tonight. It's my turn this week. We'll visit my Mom (who had a b-Day yesterday) I send her an e-card, and told her I had another committment last night, but that I would visit tonight. Dad as been sick this last week. They just returned from visiting my sister in Texas, close to where SLH lives. Said the weather was nice.
After we visit mom, we'll go out to eat. Small town near by, a place we haven't been before.
Winter is different, it's dark early, so you can't sight see much in the evening. We'll come home after dinner.
Faithful, you can take as long as you want, but I would like to know where you are. There are so many feelings you have to process, and it's so hard. You don't have to do it by yourself. Also, about your neck......... please sooner than later. Your children will be needing you. Don't gamble with their mom's health.
I imagine she was suffering a soul sickness if not a mental illness, or both
Not much of a difference I suppose, between soul sickness and mental illness...metaphysically speaking.
SS and Faith, thank you for your thoughts. I really don't have any pain left SS, just the day to day disappointment stuff we all have.
I am glad that I no longer view DW as the Godlike person I did at first. It has forced me to slow down and really take a hard look at this person and remember that all good relationships begin with friendship... and what do we have in common, how do we relate to each other, do we complement each other, etc. And now I won't do anything rash like go and get married to someone I barely know. (just kidding, I wouldn't have done that anyway but I sure was gaga over him)
I still like him very much, just not sure that he is the one for me and that is a very good thing for us both. Slowing it down I mean.
Have a good time on your date tonight SS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Not that xMrs SC needs my defense, but I think some of the facts have blurred a bit over the years... she wasn't (and perhaps still isn't) able 2 have conjugal visits because the prison knows she's not a blood relative of the OM. I remember speculating with SC about this (back when he WOULD speculate - because now he knows better and most of it is rubbing off on ol' 2long! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), it seemed the most "logical" reason for having the A with the inmate (who was a highschool sweetheart that SC was never told about) was because it COULDN'T become a PA (she'd had one many years earlier that they never properly processed).
In any case, it seems as though she's finally "getting it", but because SC has moved on, there's no reason for him 2 delve deeper 2 find out whether that's true or not. It's just 2 late.
I think all three of their kids are out on their own now. Not that this experience won't dog them the rest of their lives, of course.
I'm sure that if whenever the oppor2nity arises, SC will treat his xW with kindness, empathy, and compassion. There is no other way 2 behave, after all. But his heart belongs 2 someone else now.
Prob'ly a lotta folk units don't realize that there's a good deal of great Chinese places in the SW, particularly the eensy towns. Because of all the descendents of railroad workers from the 19th Cen2ry.
The Hong Kong closes at 9pm these days, though - railroad 2k their business up the hill 2 the new place. And it was closed for a 2ple weeks when we were there last. The universe must be getting ready 2 implode.
They shot a movie once in my home town Every body was in it from miles around Out at the speedway some kinda Elvis thing Well I ain't no movie star but I can get behind anything
Get it out get it all out Yeah stretch that thing Make it last make it all last At least until the supper bell rings Well the taxi driver like his rhythm never like the stops Throes of passion throes of passion When something just threw him off
Sometimes the faster it gets The less you need to know But you gotta remember The smarter it gets the further it's going to go When you blow at high dough When you blow at high dough
Whoa baby I feel fine I'm pretty sure it's genuine It makes no sense how it makes no sense But I'll take it free any time Whoever fits her usually gets her It was the strangest thing How she moved so fast, moved so fast Into that wedding ring
[CHORUS]
Out at the speedway, same Elvis thing Well I can't catch her, but I can get behind anything Well I can get behind anything
[CHORUS]
I guess my R with DW wasn't going so fast that I didn't need to know anything.
My all time favorite Cohen tune - (I'm listening to Cohen and The Tragically Hip this a.m., can you tell?)
LEONARD COHEN lyrics - "Hallelujah"
Now I've heard there was a secret chord That David played, and it pleased the Lord But you don't really care for music, do you? It goes like this The fourth, the fifth The minor fall, the major lift The baffled king composing Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah Hallelujah
Your faith was strong but you needed proof You saw her bathing on the roof Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you She tied you To a kitchen chair She broke your throne, and she cut your hair And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah Hallelujah, Hallelujah
You say I took the name in vain I don't even know the name But if I did, well really, what's it to you? There's a blaze of light In every word It doesn't matter which you heard The holy or the broken Hallelujah
Hallelujah, Hallelujah Hallelujah, Hallelujah
I did my best, it wasn't much I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch I've told the truth, I didn't come to fool you And even though It all went wrong I'll stand before the Lord of Song With nothing on my tongue but Hallelujah
Sorry to run off like that last night; I had thought that it would show as edited, but it didn't. I was looking for a thread that I'd heard about. I found it, finally, over on JFO.
No need to worry about anything. All's well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Weaver….you’re of French Canadian stock?! That explains the passion, the irreverence the irascibility…….as well as the sensitivity and compassion. I think you’re something.
I’m really enriched by the folks I’ve met here. I wish I was fabulously wealthy so I could throw a proper party for all the folks on this thread and then some. I would love to spend an evening hanging out and meeting all the incredible minds live. I would give my left nut……well not really, but you know what I mean……. to hear GC picking on his guitar, see 2long rubbing his chin deep in thought….SS……well heck I think I’ll just find one of his daughters and marry her just so I can call him dad!
So two hockey games for my son today….he scored a goal in each of them. That boy is really starting to show some talent…..sure didn’t get it from me…..I had hands like cement when I played. He’d been off school for the week as is every other child this time of year. He told me that he and his sister went with STBXWW to my friend’s cabin this past week. This is one of my closest friends that my STBXW and I used to spend time with every summer at this cabin. His wife passed away from breast cancer a few years ago and he’s been raising his daughter on his own since. He lives in the same city as OM and the cabin I refer to is about half way between our cities. OM was not there. I’ve not spoken to this friend since the visit as I really do not care to hear what they discussed.
Since this visit my son has asked what happened to OM’s BS. Apparently STBXWW (I wish I had a pseudonym like “the sparrow” so I didn’t have to keep typing these banal acronyms) told my son that OM’s wife is dead! I really doubt that as I spoke to her a year and a half ago and I have enough common friends yet that I would have heard that. I told him that may be true, but I’ve not heard such. He figures his mom is “fibbing”. Nice.
Anyways…..this friend has since met a woman and has fallen in love. He, as is his way, is so smitten that I’m sure will propose to her if he hasn’t already. I’ve tried to be happy for him, but in my cynical mind this relationship has disaster written all over it. This woman has been married twice prior and has two children from her previous marriage. They began dating about 6 mos. after she separated from her last husband and she still is not divorced. Given that she saw divorce as the solution to her marriage to her last husband in spite of the children and given the speed in which she has jumped into this relationship, I’m not to optimistic. I doubt that blending families is an easy task as well. Statistics alone give this a dismal chance. I have said as much when they began to date…..but now I cannot voice further concern without risking alienating him. Oh yeah…..and she’s a lawyer.
So….here I sit on a Sat. night while my children sleep. It’s comforting. Really no other place I’d rather be right now. Hopefully GC is tied to a post in a basement somewhere with some closet dominatrix woman he met that is turning him into her sex slave. I on the other hand am still awaiting the divorce……my lawyer is legally compelling opposing counsel to finish the paperwork required. I wait.
Work is going well. Though I can no longer participate in the high adrenalin stuff I used to, my present supervisor has budgeted the money required to equip me so I can still participate in a peripheral way. I must say, my employer has been nothing short of amazing since this mess occurred. I am allowed flexible shifts to accommodate my parenting obligations. I can take a few hours off here and there to do the school meeting/watch the kid’s concert stuff……heck I might even score a trip to NYC on the company dime in February for a week. Never been.
So…..I’m rambling now.
OK….I’ll shaddap! First though……some lyrics from a song I’ve commented on before….written by Jane Siberry and sung by KD Lang. It still chokes me up when I clutch my daughter tightly and we dance to it.
Love is Everything:
Maybe it was to learn how to love Maybe it was to learn how to leave Maybe it was for the games we played Maybe it was to learn how to choose Maybe it was to learn how to lose Maybe it was for the love we made
Love is everything they said it would be Love made sweet and sad the same But love forgot to make me too blind to see You're chickening out aren't you? You're bangin' on the beach like an old tin drum I cant wait 'til you make The whole kingdom come So I'm leaving
Maybe it was to learn how to fight Maybe it was for the lesson in pride Maybe it was the cowboys' ways Maybe it was to learn not to lie Maybe it was to learn how to cry Maybe it was for the love we made
Love is everything they said it would be Love did not hold back the reins But love forgot to make me too blind to see You're chickening out aren't you? You're bangin' on the beach like an old tin drum I cant wait 'til you make The whole kingdom come So I'm leaving
First he turns to you Then he turns to her So you try to hurt him back But it breaks your body down So you try to love bigger Bigger still But it...it's too late
So take a lesson from the strangeness you feel And know you'll never be the same And find it in your heart to kneel down and say I gave my love didn't I? And I gave it big...sometimes And I gave it in my own sweet time I'm just leaving
Heck, you don't need 2 be rich! Just make the party pot luck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I wouldn't be surprised if you scenario for gc in the basement is why we haven't heard form him 2night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
It's weird knowing friends are making potentially very bad mistakes, isn't it? Our senses are heightened by our experiences. We find it baffling that others could risk making the same mistakes, "knowing" what we've been through. But I think the truth is that they simply can't really know, in the sense that they haven't internalized the lessons we've learned 2 the depth that we have. Simply because they haven't lived what we've been through. And sadly, maybe they need 2, for their own enlightenment 2 occur.
Tonight I went out with the woman who's one of sparrow's oldest friends, but who has maintained a friendship with me. I was introduced to a nice girl who I might see again sometime, even though I was pretty "eh" about her.
Fellas, sorry to disappoint, but when it comes to dating, I am so far a chickensh*t and as dumb as a box of rocks.
Mmm. Possibly, of course. But the evidence seems to indicate otherwise.
Grey, have you ever considered that maybe you're looking in the wrong places? You talk about meeting girls in bars and at parties and, to a lesser extent, when you're introduced by friends.
I know that there are things you love to do. Playing the guitar and making music, exercise, and the joy of the science that you do.
I also know that you know how long it takes to get good at that stuff. Long time. Lotsa time.
Some of it has nothing to do with what you want to be doing. Remember sitting in calculus or differential equations or complex analysis or quantum mechanics or whatever class it was that finally did it, and thinking, "What in the heck am I doing here and how does it relate to where I want to go????"
And yet -- you did need that knowledge even if you couldn't see it at the time.
I'm thinking maybe it's time for the dating equivalent of quantum mechanics.
Go talk to God or whatever your understanding of the higher power of the Universe is.
Go learn about heart things and soul things.
Not because it has anything to do with dating. It doesn't.
It's just the underlying structure that makes it all make sense.
Because if The One Right girl isn't showing up, and Some Fun Ones to Hang Out with aren't showing up, I think that means that there's something else that you're supposed to be focusing on. When you start to have that other thing click into place, this part of being stuck will work itself out.
Grey, have you ever considered that maybe you're looking in the wrong places?
J, I'm certain of it.
You voiced my thoughts exactly.
I'm frustrated by the way things are right now, but only a little. I don't sweat it much because... well, the QM analogy is nearly perfect. Also because I'm not shy around women or intimidated by them. Just not interested in most of the ones I meet, frankly.
As for the learning about heart & soul things and taking the dating equivalent of QM... I'm doing an okay job of all that.
Not because it has anything to do with dating. It doesn't.
It's just the underlying structure that makes it all make sense.
I think that maybe it does have everything to do with dating.
"Build it and they will come"
I believe that with all my heart. Me, I open my heart to the wrong guys probably, but at least I open it. I try to see with my heart, the possibities. But I flunk out if there is no chemistry. I still suck at making fire out of flints, I know.
I love talking about love, and preparing your home and heart for the right person to come along. Sometimes even if it takes a few smacks to get to the right person, I know I will and I know you will too Gray.
Got to open that ole heart.
"Get in the pit and try to love someone"!!!! As the Kid would say. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Thank you Binder, I think you are something too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm frustrated by the way things are right now, but only a little. I don't sweat it much because... well, the QM analogy is nearly perfect. Also because I'm not shy around women or intimidated by them. Just not interested in most of the ones I meet, frankly.
That's great GC, but it’s making it difficult to live vicariously through you. I mean couldn’t ya just take a so so one to a movie or sumthing? Then tell some embellished stories about the night? Give me something would ya….
Tonight after band rehearsal I met Jayne and the Giraffe for a drink and a few oysters.
They asked me questions about my ex's affair and my divorce. They've never done that before. I've told Jayne some things, but the Giraffe hasn't heard much about it from me. So I talked about it.
Jayne lives with me. The Giraffe almost lives here too. So they know more about me than lots of people. They're getting married and want to get it right.
They don't understand why the sparrow, if she was a human being, and if she had any brains or had anything like a good heart, would have abandoned a swell guy like me. That this would happen to me unsettles them.
They left, then I left, and on the way home I felt very sad. Spilled a few tears, just the usual ones, thinking about what I lost, having spoken about it.
Now I feel pretty good. I still have times when I think the things that happened were partly my fault, because I'm not lovable, not good enough, &c &c. It was nice to see someone, especially a thoughtful and smart and great-looking girl, confused as to why the sparrow would walk away from me.
Maybe, GC's simple little brain says, it really was all about her.
GC - you have the heart, the life, the heartbreak - to write some GREAT songs. I hope you are journaling. I can imagine hearing you croon a Steve Perry-esque song in a bar with almost no lights, hot and smokey. And your song causes all of the lovers to sit quietly - looking into each other's eyes - knowing that they better take care of each other.
I looked up "agnostic". Interesting definition. Maybe I am more of an agnostic than I confess. (can't confess to too much when you work for a highly evangelistic church...)
Are you gonna build your studio around a pro-tools system?
Hey FAR. With the studio I'll pay most of my attention to making a dead room with massive walls, floor, and ceiling. And I'll at least build "hooks" for a control room into it. As for what's to be done in there... I'd like to use the room for playing loud guitar without bugging my neighbors, getting big stuff into my basement (via a luxurious egress), watching movies maybe (though I prefer going out to the theater), and if necessary SCREAMING.
I've written lots of songs these last two years, but nothing is complete. I don't know why - guess it's a reflection of all that's been going on. But - I think some of the stuff is awfully good. I'm not much of a singer though. I can carry a tune and have a good range, and my voice is pleasant, but it doesn't have much character to it. I'm a good backup singer, like Sheryl Crow.
Hi FAR! GC, I haven't really posted much here lately but wanted you to know that I do pop in to keep up with you and the other campers. You sound so good, even when you are reflecting. Big, big diff from just a few months ago.
I have news? no no no. I had a thread I had to find. That one over on JFO. News will come later and will definitely not show up tonight. Tonight, I'm insane and anything I post about it here will just create ranting on this lovely thread, and we don't want ranting.
I want a beer, though.
Glad to know you swimmed. I like swimming. I just hate getting cold. (No really. Four years of synchronized swimming team and I hated it every single darned time I got in the pool -- for 30 seconds until I warmed up.)
The only way to handle the cold water for me is to just not hesitate at water's edge. It is bracing for a few seconds, no doubt.
There's an all girl rock band from L.A. called "The Like" and they have a video where they pretend to play on a stage in a pool surrounded by synchronized swimmers. It's kinda cool. You can see the video on their website I think - ilikethelike.com
Instead of a beer, I read odd articles on the Internet. And didn't do the work I was supposed to do. And now I'm going to bed. But I'll look at that video tomorrow. Sleep well, m'man.
I swam for three years in high school. Sometimes we would walk across ice in a speedo with a towel to get to the bubble with the pool in it. But after that first thousand yards, ye ain't cold. It was good for me, a scrawny asthmatic. I went from 90 lbs the beginning of my freshman year to 130 the beginning of my sophomore. Swimming is good for you.
I love Sheryl Crow's voice. And tons of other folks do, too.
Have you seen that ad in Electronic Musician - the guy who claims he has a program that will teach you perfect pitch? I wanna get it, just to see what in helll he is selling.
Speaking of which - that mag also has an article on builidng enclosures for your speaker - you play it loud, but it does not bother the neighbors. On that note - take it from me - seriously - you do not want tinitis. My ears ring 24/7. For the last two years. Turn it down, wear earplugs, dont listen to Van Halen in the back of a '67 Buick Skylark for two years in high school, what ever it takes to avoid tinitis. Mine is not bad, yet. It is always there, but I only notice it when it gets quiet around me.
Did I mention to protect your hearing?? You do not need to be next to that amp!
Your voice sounds just fine. Finish a couple of those songs - then sing 'em like you mean it. And we know you do. We all do.
I never really liked country - but that Keith Urban song sure is good. ( I guess that is pop....)
FAR, I think that perfect pitch stuff in magazines is a racket, but I don't actually know. I just think it's more often the result of genetics, plus a lifetime spent hearing and understanding music. Here's a link to some interesting work on the subject:
Don't know from Keith Urban, but I love country. I don't get the current "FM country" stuff though. I think it's at least partly the production - everything's compressed and clipped and has no dynamics. It seems to be engineered and mastered the same as dance music.
"Tequila Makes Her Clothes Fall Off" makes me laugh.
And I like "Whiskey Lullabye" for the ache in the harmony of the chorus. Makes you feel like YOU are the one who's been drinking. It hurts just like that.
Oh, and I don't have perfect pitch. Scored dead average among the non-perfect pitch folks on the test. Cool thing, all in all. I wonder how I would've scored when I was in high school and playing music all the time.
I found out yesterday that sparrow and tinman are married.
I felt nothing when I learned this.
Then I heard how unpleasant they continue to make things for car4love, and became furious about that.
Then I went out with friends and stumbled across evidence that women like me.
Good grief! I couldn't figure out what part of your post NOT to quote. First {{GC}} for NOT feeling anything and {{{Car4love}}} for the sucky way those two still have to torture that poor woman and her children. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
And a big ~thwack~ for just NOW realizing you have something to offer women! sheesh...ya think we told ya enough? Love ya, GC and my prayers for car4love.
"The deepest truth I have discovered is that if one accepts the loss, if one gives up clinging to what is irretrievably gone, then the nothing which is left is not barren but is enormously fruitful. Everything that one has lost comes flooding back out of the darkness, and one's relation to it is new--free and unclinging. But the richness of the nothing contains far more. It is the all-possible, it is the spring of freedom."
It reminds me of a saying in a movie I watched last night "Missing in America" about the broken life of a viet nam vet(Danny Glover), and a little girl he got "stuck" caring for.
The saying was "Follow the raven into the shadow, and there you will find the light".
Through devastating loss, we can grow...it is through this pain which allows growth. It just doesn't happen without loss usually.
Oh and that reminds me of something I need to post as soon as I find it.
Ooooh and I am listening to Creed's "Weathered", and it goes right along with this theme. ..I choose to fight, I choose to fly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
"To fear is one thing.To let fear grab you by the tail and swing you around is another".
Imagine this: there is a room of a thousand demons. You open the door and walk in. The room is small. Once you have entered, the door will close behind you. On the inside of the door there is no handle to let you back out. In fact to get out, you will have to walk across to the other side of the room to another door.That's all you have to do, to become enlightened. This is called....
The Room of One Thousand Demons.
(A Tibetan Ceremony held every 100 years that buddhist students undergo) Those one thousand demons have the ability to take on the form of your fears. As soon as you walk into the room, those demons will show you your worst fears. If you are afraid of heights,when you walk in the room, it will appear as if you are standing on the narrow ledge of a tall building and so forth. These demons will take on those images from your mind and make them seem very real. In fact, they will be so compelling real, it will be hard to believe they are not. No one can come in and rescue you. That's the rule.
If you go into the room of a thousand demons, you have to make it out on your own. Some people never make it out to the other side. They go into the room of a thousand demons and become paralyzed with fear and they stay trapped in that room until they die. What happens is up to you. If you don't have to go through it you can wait until your next incarnation and come back in another hundred years and try again. But if you do want to go in,there are 2 hints that will help you.
The first hint is as soon as you go inside, remember, keep reminding yourself, that what those demons are showing you isn't real. It's all from your own mind. It is an illusion. Of course, most of the people go in there and stay trapped in there forget that. It is very difficult to keep it in mind when you see yourself surrounded by demons.
The second hint is that once you walk into that room, no matter what you see,hear, no matter what you feel, no matter what you think, keep your feet moving. If you keep your feet moving, you will eventually get to the other door.Adversity has a way of bringing those demons right into our lives. When things are going well we forget about these demons and ignore them. When things are not going well, they appear in fullforce, until we have learned how to manage them. So we have to remember to keep walking. Keep walking. Keep working your way through the demons. Stay on that path... ____________________________________________________________
No human relation gives one possession in another--every two souls are absolutely different. In friendship or in love, the two side by side raise hands together to find what one cannot reach alone.---Kahil Gibran
GC: I'm sorry. It'll hit you in a while. It'll feel better when it does.
The emptiness does bring forth the most profound creations. The entire universe in a single atom. Each moment all of creation, every bit of its potential, exists. All at once.
What you've lost will be reborn, its form changed and its substance eternal.
What you've gained will never be taken away from you.
Give car4love my love. She's a special and amazing person.
The emptiness does bring forth the most profound creations. The entire universe in a single atom. Each moment all of creation, every bit of its potential, exists. All at once.
What you've lost will be reborn, its form changed and its substance eternal.
What you've gained will never be taken away from you.
I love that J. Only the form changes... love can never, ever be taken away or lost.
Because it is inside US, only the form we project it on can change.
Once we realize this, we realize that we have lost nothing.
I read this thread on occasion, but I don't generally post. I know there are a lot of people that read here and I'm, uh, shy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
But when Weaver wrote this...
Through devastating loss, we can grow...it is through this pain which allows growth. It just doesn't happen without loss usually.
...it made me think of something that I came across the other week. I thought I'd share it.
GROWING PAINS
Life is about growth, which is wonderful, though not always easy. Indeed, many of life's lessons can be painful or difficult. Yet, such challenges are often the ones that present the most opportunity for spiritual growth. Initiations for growth come in many forms. In fact, we can view every challenge in life as an opportunity to learn and grow. While these disruptions in life are not easy, they are necessary.
The challenges the universe sends us can seem unbearable at times: a job we don't want to spend another day at, a broken heart that feels as if it will never heal, or a long and painful illness. And then, there are the challenges that can be just as scary because we are being called to step up to the plate in ways that we may think we are not yet ready for: overcoming our fears in order to realize a lifelong dream, leaving behind a situation or people in our life that we may have outgrown, or moving across the world for our dream job or life partner.
At such times, it can feel as if the world is testing us and that life is asking more of us than we think we can give. We may feel uncomfortable, frightened, and unsure of what to do. However, life isn't so much going against us as it is encouraging us to grow. During these periods, we can grow stronger by putting one foot in front of the other, as we work through our challenges. We may be asked to let go of old safety measures, shift old patterns of behavior, or step into the abyss of the unknown. When we do rise to the occasion, we end up better off for having made that journey. Not only do we end up learning and growing, but we inevitably become more compassionate to the challenges of others and wiser in the ways of the world. Our faith in the universe also grows because, ultimately, we can't help but realize how much we are supported and taken care of at all times. When we are in the midst of a growing period, it is not easy to see our reward, but it is there, waiting for us to grow big enough to reach it.
Hi svb! I read your thread and am so glad you stopped by here. Hi J, weaver, ss, AD, 2long, loy and especially GC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Well, I'm back from a quick perusal. Summary? Oh. THAT nonsense.
*sigh*
But I did see the timing of JustUss's lock of a particular thread. If you read it right, you might think that it was the epithet "witch" that got the thread locked. That's pretty funny, actually.
And, I'm sure, not why JustUss locked it.
Yes, ladies and gents, it's a holiday and I'm sitting in my office "working." The most urgent of the stuff I needed to do is done, so I'm relaxing more than I should.
Does anyone have any popcorn? I have a craving.
Mortarman and WAT are both in NVA. I s'pose I could mooch offa them, if they have any. Then again, they both might rant at me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
GC - I have not read your story - but it sounds like an unfun day.
I will shoot a prayer up for you.
However agnostic I may feel at times (more, lately...) I still hang on to the idea that God does not give us more than we can handle. (I feel that I have seen circumstances handled poorly with certain a STBX in my life - but that is a different thread if I ever have the energy)
svb1's post made me think of a quote that i believe i have posted here before. My fil told me something like this: " you will not believe the growth in character you are going to experience from this. Who you will be at the other side of this will be amazing to you."
And i am beginning to understand what he was talking about.
You, GC, I am sure - know what i am talking about. Many of us do.
A friend told me a few weeks ago about his son that was left/divorced by his wife five years ago. The poor guy is still going through serious depression, and it is affecting the jobs he gets, and many other things. I thought - what a waste. (I asked him to steer him to me and MB...)
I am glad you (i) are (am) moving forward!
We have so much to look forward to in this life!!! I have three wonderful children, and the joy I get from them nearly brings me to tears! (no kidding - I am misting up right now!)
Life is exciting for us right now! Finish the songs! Sing 'em somewhere and see how they touch people!
Wow - seems every time I post i am all over the place. Oh well - so be it!
I hope you don't mind if I just sit here, and listen while I watch the fire. The flames can have a soothing effect on a person.
SS
Yup SS…..cowboy TV….nothing like it. I hope you’re well.
GC, I understand the empty feeling you had when you heard about the sparrow’s “marriage” to the tinman……I’ve seen the 1000 yard stare in a lot of people when they get “significant” news. I’ve also occasionally seen the aftermath when their mind finally decides to process the information. I hope this doesn’t describe what you are or will be going through. If I may quote a bright man:
Quote
Humility Patience Courage Compassion
I hope you apply these principals when dealing with yourself too.
FAR, I've had a great weekend. I spoke to car4love on Friday, during which conversation I leared about the APs getting married, then went out and had some unrelated laughs with a girl who said incredibly nice things to me while I fought her off.
I watched Hannibal. Stupid, but it was funny to see that the perfume shop in Florence where Hannibal Lechter buys scents is the same shop where sparrow bought soap for the tinman (while I stood there). That's amusing, don't you think?
I read some scholarly things about religion and ethics. I had band practice, watched football (the last few minutes of the Steelers-Colts game were insane!), had a drink with my friend Amelia. Today I celebrated MLK day, got all my finances straightened out, and listened to old Public Enemy CDs. My roommate and his GF went snowboarding, and while they were gone I played my band's album reeeeeally loud. I semi-finished a song about my divorce that I've been working on for about a year. I read reviews of one of my band's old tunes on garageband.com.
I took some brownie mix and experimented with it to the point where the finished product is at best similar to brownies, and is uuuuuugly.
Good list, Binder. If we all applied those well - just think.....
Gray - I have not yet watched Hannibal - I need to get it and settle in one night.
Here is a fun trick - very easy - that impresses the kids: write stuff on top of the brownies with hershey's chocolate syrup before you cook the brownies. It looks real cool when it comes out. I did hearts one time - the girls loved it.
Scholarly writings about religion and ethics are sometimes hard to discern from BS about religion and ethics.
Glad you had a good weekend.
My son is 7 and just started riding his bike really well. We try to ride together every day. It is a total joy!
Could you give me your e-mail address? I want to share something w/you off the boards about a fellow MB. I can't go into details here, but you & he had become very good friends & I think you should know something if you don't already. My e-mail is [email]thirteenyrs@yahoo.com.[/email] Thanks GC.
Could you give me your e-mail address? I want to share something w/you off the boards about a fellow MB. I can't go into details here, but you & he had become very good friends & I think you should know something if you don't already. My e-mail is [email]thirteenyrs@yahoo.com.[/email] Thanks GC.
Somehow I find this post a bit unsettling. Any chance it could be reworded, so that those of us who are paranoid don't think that the world is out 2 get us?
Binder (and Faithful) I have been away. I thought I would have net access, and lots of time to talk over the weekend, but it turned out that the phone line to the cabin had been disconnected, so I had no access. I did use my time wisely, and spent it with the twins, and my W. Plus I read a book that AD gave me - and it was pretty good.
Such a nice campfire - yes Binder, you are right about the fire, I hope to spend at least one evening sitting by the fire with you. Your son, and daughter are welcome too. I discussed vacaton plans with my family over the weekend. We may be up to see you in a couple of years. I'd even buy you lunch just to get to talk, but the fire would be nicer. I'm an outside type of guy.
Hi Gray, I see you have been busy. Probably a good busy too, for the most part. You sound better - like your heart is getting what you head has been telling it for so long. I hope it's true.
FF: I read only the first post of your thread. As with all steps of this sort, I'm cautious... and hopeful. Here's a hug for you. Go forth and do great work, no matter what happens next.
So tonight the giraffe made dinner, and she and Jayne invited me to eat with them. I'd already had dinner, but they didn't give me much choice.
After, I got up to help clean up. Giraffe asked me not to, 'cause the meal didn't turn out like she wanted and my kitchen was all messed. I helped for a minute and she shooed me out, so I left.
Jayne and the giraffe like to watch Audrey Hepburn movies (probably more her thing than his). The record I was playing ended, so I put on the soundtrack from Breakfast at Tiffany's. I said, "Here's some music to clean up to."
Everybody was jolly. I sat alone in my dining room. "Moon River" is the first track on the record.
I remembered my wedding, a hundred years ago. Sparrow and I hired a big band. Everything about our wedding was cheap except for that band. We had them play "Moon River" for the first song we danced to. Who wouldn't?
I'm gonna sound like a big sissy here. I started to effing cry right there at my dining room table, listening to stupid "Moon River". Really took me by surprise.
I guess there are always things that shake your memories loose and feed you little tastes of your losses.
I'll never be with someone who I can share memories with from when we were 23. Any person I wind up with will have her own past as an adult, and her own things that she's lost, and we'll never have those things in common.
That isn't bad, exactly, or important even, but when you remember you've lost it, it hurts anyway.
I'm just glad I got it together before getting caught and having to explain myself.
On Valentine's Day I'm playing in a tribute to Hank Williams. It's a special gig for single people. Several bands will play short sets covering some of the saddest heartbreak music around. I reckon I'll fit right in.
Naturally, "Alone and Forsaken" is on our setlist.
...oh, you said Hank Williams. I thought I heard Harry Nilsson... ...but then I also thought you said "simple people". I'm getting dyslexic in my old age.
Stephen Wright once said:
"I love reminiscing with people I've never met."
What good are memories, anyway? Heck, when you get as old as I am, you won't believe it when people tell you that you ever WERE 23, let alone remember anything about it...
I don't need cheering up, 2long. I'm fine. I'm sad about Mike.
I'm remembering things about what happened with Cindy and him, as the situation started to change a year ago.
He was never afraid.
He never gobbled up scraps of contrition or goodwill. He was skeptical of everything, and instictively waited for Cindy to prove to him that the things she said about wanting to make things right were true. And I think she did.
I LOVE tea. I normally drink it iced. But the last few months have been tea nirvana for me. I discovered spiced tea. I mix Lipton's basic tea (single serving size) - a bag of Stash brand orange and spice tea, and a bag of Good Earth chai tea. (I brew it in an old Miracle Whip jar full of water - not to boiling - just good and hot) I dilute it in the cup - about 4 or 5 32 ounce cups worth of tea in one jar. Two spoons of sugar - YUM YUM!!!!
All of that to say - tonight I have crud in my throat - so I added a new ingredient - Seagrams 7. Kinda soothes the old tube.
Any other tea lovers out there? Oh - the Good Earth chai tea has pepper in it. Really an interesting twist.
GC, I was thinking about Mike and Cindy last night too. I was remembering how some people gave him such a hard time for letting her back home. He was one of the most determined BS's I have ever seen and Cindy definitely saw that through her fog. I am still reeling over this news and many people just don't understand how we can become so attached to someone we never met. This site amazes me because we share our hearts and souls with each other.
J, thanks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Cautious is me these days.
Hi FAR. Happy un-anniversary 2long. Hi Weaver, SS, AD and anyone I missed.
FAR, I am not going to NAMM. I'd like to go to SXSW, but it's not likely. Too poor.
I drink green tea all day (used to drink Diet Coke). I quit smoking last year. I exercise all the time (didn't used to). I get at least 7 hours' sleep a night (used to barely sleep).
And the last few months, I'm ALWAYS sick.
Hardly seems fair. If I cut out exercise, start smoking regularly, and replace tea with Diet Coke, maybe I'll get healthy again.
G'Mornin. I just wanted to check in. I've missed everyone terribley. Things have been super-hectic here but are improving, I hope.
I'm about to try to scan through the last few days of posts to catch up with some of what I've missed; something a cup of Blackberry tea will compliment nicely, I think.
I'm doing good, guys. I've truly missed you all, so much.
Can you believe I typed out and entire, long, detailed post, and just lost it? I had forgotten about saving it all before I hit the post button. Ah, it's good to be back on Marriage Builders. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Please forgive this brief reply; I had only allowed myself so much time before I had things to get done, and I am now overdue. I'll try to type it out again later. Suffice to say things are lookin' up. Truly.
By the way, I got another dog. I'm not a small dog (read as, yap-yap) kind of person, but when I saw this little girl, I was smitten. Her name is Nina, but I (lovingly) refer to her as Rat Dog. I'm sure we appear quite incongruous when I take her and my huge yellow Lab out on walks together.
And no, I don't have a rhinestone collar or prom dresses for her. Sheesh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Please forgive the mass of pics on that page; I haven't updated my actual site and that page is sort of a staging area. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
GC……I’ve had those outbursts before. Not for a while mind you, and the source of the pain has changed….but I’ve had them. I can’t say I look forward to those moments…..but I relish them in a way. For a number of reasons I’ve viewed a good portion of my life in a detached way. It can become so intuitive at times that I wonder about my humanity. The regret, the sorrow and the pain confirms that I still am very much a vulnerable human being. I like myself at those times. Never be ashamed of genuine emotion.
2long…..er….happy anniversary I guess……
J……glad you are happy and in love…….keep it to yourself woudja!
Weaver…..yeah I said you’re something….don’t let it go to your head ok?<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
SS….you’ll have to let me know If you came up this way……It would be doubly cool if we sat around the campfire for real at my cabin. I would hope it would be finished to the point of a comfortable place for you and your wife to spend a night or two. The country is still gorgeous out that way.
Oh…by the way…I think I’ve finally figured out how to post pics. Here is my son after a recent game during Minor Hockey Week. They just lost out in the semifinals by one goal. He scored the only goal for his team. The boy is really starting to show some talent. Of course his mother did not watch the game as she, of course, is on her weekly jaunt in the OM's city.
Thanks FF….I obviously screwed up setting the date on my new digital camera…it has since been adjusted. I also lost my message to you and SLH in my editing. What I had said was: Wow…I had read your thread and …..wow. I wouldn’t know where to start, but to quote Ford: "If you think you can or you think you can’t……you’re right."
SLH….welcome back, glad to hear things are well and I look forward to reading all the details.
Binder, I'm so glad to be able to annoy you properly with my gooey descriptions of being "In LUUUUUUV"! Most people seem to think it's cute, rather than overly saccharine. You're a fine antidote to it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Which is to say, well, no, I won't be keeping it to myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Summary for the last three days: Ohio was lovely. We went to church, folded laundry, made supper twice and ate out twice (one supper, one breakfast), and shopped for dress shirts, ties, and kitchenware. We went for a long walk through fields down to a marshy area with a stream back at the back of it, and saw red-tailed hawks and deer prints while we were out. We got muddy and washed our muddy clothes and shoes. We created love in the most mundane and wonderful things.
I learned that I really like chicken cooked on a George Foreman grill. I enjoyed watching hobbits save Middle Earth. I decided that HoFS needs more sleep. (I decide that every time I see him, and then we part again and I decide that I'd rather talk on the phone than let him sleep at night.) I decided to research the Dusty Armadillo, 'cause he and I need to learn to dance together. (Done.)
I once again am determined to find a way to create this time with him on a more frequent basis. Every three weeks is too long. Every two weeks is bearable. Every week appears to be impossible because of our other responsibilities, but I'd like to try it anyway. I'd like to try it out continuously, too.
All in all? There are levels of intimacy and vulnerability and safety that I haven't ever had with anyone. I'm exploring them with him. It's a little scary. And it feels oh-so-right.
J, your happines is almost tangible; I can almost feel its width and breath. My heart sings for you.
SS, thinking of you too.
Gray, am I a busybody? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I mean to write an update, but Ti just got home from offshore. He came home for a few days in early Jan but before then, the last time I saw him was in mid-December (he missed Christmas and New Years, etc). So I am soaking in the euphoria right now, storing it for his next trip (they are talking Nigeria, land of civil unrest. Poor Africa)
I promise to write an update soon, though there is little to tell. A good sign, I suppose. And this time, I will save my post before I submit it, LOL. I had forgotten how infuriating that can be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL
Downloaded this one 2night. So I'm singin' it here:
"Dear Mister Fantasy" -Traffic
"Dear Mister Fantasy play us a tune Something to make us all happy Do anything take us out of this gloom Sing a song, play guitar Make it snappy You are the one who can make us all laugh But doing that you break out in tears Please don't be sad if it was a straight mind you had We wouldn't have known you all these years"
[This is DD's favorite bedtime story when she's with me. It has been her favorite for more than a year now. Nonny is what she calls one of my brothers, who lives with us and who does regularly say, "Oooo, ya dumb cat!" to Henry.]
One night when Nonny went outside to go to the store, Henry raced out the door after him. Nonny chased him, but Henry is a fast cat and he raced up a tree. And then he went all the way up to the top of the tree because he saw the moon! Then he rrrreeeeeeacccchhhhed out with his paw and went BAT BAT BAT BAT and said "MRRRRRROOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!" But he could not reach the moon.
Nonny came to the bottom of the tree and watched and eventually Henry came down and Nonny caught him. And Nonny said, "Oooo, ya dumb cat. You're not very smart!" and he took Henry into the house.
Henry went and sat down in his cat bed and he put his chin on his paws. He thought and he thought and he thought and he thought. He wanted to reach the moon!! So he decided that he would do it.
The next time the door was open and Henry could dash out, he knew just what to do. He ran out the door, and down the stairs, and then he raced down the street! He ran and ran, all the way to the park with the green slides. He ran right up the tallest tree in the park, all the way to the very tip-top. Oh! He saw the moon! Then he rrrreeeeeeacccchhhhed out with his paw and went BAT BAT BAT BAT and said "MRRRRRROOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!" But he could not reach the moon.
Then Henry realized that he was in the tip-top of a very big tree! He could not get down and he said, "mew!" He had to wait until a person came along and noticed him in the tree, and when he got down, Nonny was there to get him and take him home. And Nonny said, "Oooo, ya dumb cat. You're not very smart!" and he took Henry back home and into the house.
Henry was determined to reach the moon, though. So.... when the door was open again, out he went! This time he went the other way -- down the sidewalk and the stairs and along the street, all the way to the Metro station. He watched and watched the people, and then he followed a lady with a suitcase with pink flowers on it. He sat behind her all the way down the escalator, and he hid behind her legs on the platform. When the train came, he got on the train right with her, and rode with her all the way to the airport! He followed her through the airport and through security, and then he followed her right down to the gate and onto the airplane! He hid under the seat on the plane and didn't come out when the plane took off up into the air. He waited and waited until it was all quiet and dark in the plane and then he came out.
He crept up onto the seat of the plane and then up onto the armrest and he looked out the window. And oh! He saw the moon outside the airplane window! Then he rrrreeeeeeacccchhhhed out with his paw and went BAT BAT BAT BAT and said "MRRRRRROOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!" But he could not reach the moon.
The person who was sitting in the seat next to him looked very surprised. And he said, "There's a cat on this plane!" He rang the call button for the stewardess, and when the stewardess came, she looked and then she said, "There's a cat on this plane!”
And that is how Henry went to Paris.
He got in lots of trouble for that one, and Nonny AND Uncle Mike had to go get him from Paris. And when the reporters asked Nonny about Henry, well, Nonny said, "Oooo, ya dumb cat. You're not very smart!" and he took Henry back home and into the house.
Henry wasn't done yet, though! He was determined to reach the moon. So even though Nonny and Mama were very careful not to let Henry out anymore, one day he escaped anyway when Mama came in the house with lots of groceries and things. And she yelled, "Henry, you come back here!"
But he didn't. Instead, he went back to the Metro station as fast as he could, and he got on another train to the airport. Instead of going to Paris this time, though, he got on a plane to Florida. (How he knew where Florida is, we do not know.) From there, he went right to Cape Canaveral, where the space shuttle is. He took one of the tourist busses all the way along, and then he jumped off at just the right place. He went past the giant alligator who lives at Cape Canaveral and went all the way to the big launch pad.
Then he had to wait and wait and wait for a very long time while the space shuttle got ready to go. While he was there, he would steal old pizza crusts from the garbage and he sneak around to look at things. Always he watched for the astronauts, though, and FINALLY, they came!!
So he followed them into the shuttle and hid in one of the bunks, and then he lay low and waited. And then all of a sudden there was a HUGE
and the shuttle took off! It lasted for a really long time, and then....
It was quiet.
Very quiet.
And Henry was floating!
He floated right out into the cabin and he said, "mew!"
And the astronauts all looked around at him and they were very surprised!
One of them went to get him, and oh! He saw the moon! Right outside the shuttle port! Then he rrrreeeeeeacccchhhhed out with his paw and went BAT BAT BAT BAT and said "MRRRRRROOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!" But he could not reach the moon.
And then the astronaut caught him, and another astronaut said into the radio, "Houston? We have a.... cat."
Nonny and Uncle Mike had to go to Florida to get him that time. And when the reporters asked Nonny about Henry, well, Nonny said, "Oooo, ya dumb cat. You're not very smart! Does anyone want a cat?" and he took Henry back home and into the house.
But Henry wasn't done yet. He was sure he could reach the moon. So he sat in his cat bed with his chin on his paws and he thought and thought and thought.
Finally, he decided to use magic to reach the moon.
So he sat in a special place, and he brought out his moondust powder, and he sprinkled it around.... and he remembered that he needed air and warmth to be okay on the moon.
And then he worked and worked and worked, as hard as he had worked to get to the moon in any other way, and even harder than that. And then....
POOOOOOF!!!!!
He was on the moon! He bounced high up into the air, and he splashed down in all the moondust a cat could ever want. He saw the flag that the astronauts put up, and he put his cat-print right in the middle of an astronaut's footprint. He played and roled and raced around and got completely covered in gray moondust.
And then he sat down and looked up.
And he saw the Earth.
Then he rrrreeeeeeacccchhhhed out with his paw and went BAT BAT BAT BAT and said "MRRRRRROOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!" But he could not reach the Earth. So he worked and worked and worked, as hard as he had worked to get to the moon, and even harder than that. And then....
POOOOOOF!!!!!
He was at home again, next to the fireplace.
And just then, Nonny walked into the living room and saw Henry all covered in moondust. And Nonny said, "Oooo, ya dumb cat. What were you doing in the fireplace??? You're not very smart!" and he took Henry into the kitchen and gave him a bath.
But Henry knew that it wasn't fireplace ashes. It was moondust. And that is why Henry walks around sticking his tongue out at Nonny. Because even though Nonny doesn't know, Henry does. Henry has been to the moon.
I sit and listen to the late Jacqueline du Pre play the cello.
In a few weeks I'm having a party. Technically a housewarming, since I just bought my house from myself and my ex two months ago. Really though it's something else.
I guess the timing makes sense. My ex and her AP are married, and it's been almost two years since the A began, so I'm pretty well grieved out. If you don't count the occasional bout of sorrow or sparrow-starring nightmare, that is. Those are ordinary now. Like the hiccups.
I even have a woman chasing me. She's cool. A few nights ago I told her I'm not up for a girlfriend, which is juuuuust fine with her, so she says.
But I shouldn't be so dang serious. I was funny once.
Gee, guys, the fire's almost out. Did my story put y'all to sleep? (If it did, you're in good company. DD is conked out over there in her bed. I'm on the computer while hanging out in the rocking chair in her room.)
I'll be in Ohio this weekend. Try not to get in too much trouple while you're away, ok? Well, except for GC. You, my dear man, need a little of the good kind of trouble in your life.
Oh me too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Binder he is not going to fight her off, he is just teasing you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
I have the most beautiful quote from "ACIM" which I am going to post -
Quote
From beyond each of the obstacles to love, Love Itself has called. And each has been surmounted by the power of the attraction of what lies beyond.
It happens to remind me of 2long and others who have been hanging in there for so long. Even myself, as I will never give up the hope that there is a love so strong, and so great, and so beautiful... out there, just for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hi FF! Don't worry about forgetting me. I'm not around that much anymore.
Spent another idyllic weekend in Ohio, though. Most of it I can't talk about on a public forum. Let's just say that I'm starting to understand how sex could be sacred enough to need to be protected by a marriage. And this from a kid who was born during the Summer of Love. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
As for the rest of it, it was darned good. The weather outside was frightful, to be sure. Snow and blowing so hard that it wasn't even tempting to step out the door. So we stayed in. We ate, uhm, three meals in 48 hours. Plus some grapes and cookies. One of those meals was dinner with HoFS' sons. We went to Applebees. Then we went to Wal-Mart for smoothie makings. We went home and made them, and then played Risk. Tons o' fun, which was very cool for all kinds of reasons that I can summarize this way: Each small step is good. Each time a small step is enjoyable, it's a little bit bigger step.
Love is a really good thing. Just don't drive when you're under its influence. (No, I didn't. HoFS drove while I purred.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I think I'll hold my comments on that one...but the visual which comes up girl.
Hi Faith...
I think of you often, but this thread doesn't come up that often anymore so I missed your post.
I feel kind of stupid re: the quote I wuoted in light of what is going on now, but I guess it is still true.
An update on me? DW and I have called it quits...for now. Who knows maybe someday we will find ourselves together again, but we both have issues which the R brought up, and I guess the R couldn't withstand those issues.
{{Weaver}} I adore you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
J ---Spent another idyllic weekend in Ohio, though. Most of it I can't talk about on a public forum. Let's just say that I'm starting to understand how sex could be sacred enough to need to be protected by a marriage. And this from a kid who was born during the Summer of Love.
I think you are there! What a lovely, lovely way of thinking. sigh..........
I worry you wouldn't like my style of tacos, Kimmy.
I pan roast a cut-up chicken. Takes two go-rounds if you use an ordinary iron skillet.
While the bird is in the oven I chop up spinach and an onion, then sit and have a beer.
I move the pan back to the stovetop, put the chicken in a bowl, stick it out on the porch to cool, defat and deglaze the pan, and throw in the chopped onion. While the onion sweats over low low heat, I chop taco condiments, then I sit down and drink a beer.
I finish the beer, shred cheese, then get another beer.
After I wake up, the chicken is cool enough to shred.
Into the pan goes a jar of salsa verde, the chicken, and the spinach. When the liquid has reduced a little and the spinach is wilted, you eat.
Now, some people take boneless, skinless chicken breasts, cut them up, and just cook everything at once. That's fassssst, but it's 100x better with roasted chicken.
Yeah right, 2long. I think it's a felony to put chicken in a taco down there.
Finally, an evening at home, by myself. Things have been crazy recently. Too much going on. Too much.
Female attention is swell, but man, it gives me worries. I wouldn't mind stepping away from it for a bit. Unfortunately, keeping your distance just makes them like you more. Crazy chicks.
This is a total comfort childhood food for me; I'm using the Old El Paso taco kit. Y'all can snicker now, and that's just fine with me. It's alllllllllll about the crunch and the taco seasoning and how it takes me back to being six years old.
I do make killer enchiladas and sopa de lima, though. And GC is absolutely right. This is food that's muuuuuuuch better when you start with a whole chicken (or at least bone-in, skin-on chicken breasts). Home-made salsa verde, home-shredded cheese, oooo, lala. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I like 'em both, GC...it just depends on my mood. I also make my flour torts. It makes Wookie happy....and they do taste better...I just can't make 'em round...they always end up in the shape of Texas or Louisana...
>Crazy chicks
Cest moi?
Honestly, the ones that like ya too much give me the willies. KWIM? Like, what's the hurry? It's not a footrace...
>I'm using the Old El Paso taco kit.
You're going to h-e-double-hockey-sticks. Seriously. Send me some of your homemade salsa verde and I'll put in a good word for you with the Big Guy.
Kimmy, I prolly am going to heck, but it's not for the tacos. It's all the, err, complicated living I did as a young pup. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'd send you some homemade salsa verde, though. I wonder how I could get it there without breaking or spoiling. It's purty good, purty mild, stuff.
Or you could just follow the recipe that I use, which is from, err, that famous Mexican chef guy, you know the one. *sigh* My brain is still purring.
And Weaver, just so you know, there is NOTHING impure about that image. Just imagine me in the passenger seat of a car (fully clothed, seatbelt on, car moving) looking sleepy, content, and .... well, purring. Not one single thought of any kind floating through my head except PURRRRRRRRR.
Thank goodness for Amazon.com and all the other supplemental brainpower that's available these days.
My recipe is from the book Authentic Mexican by Rick Bayless and Deann Groen Bayless. That's also where my sopa de lima and enchilada recipes are from. The cookbook is, in my humble opinion, a must-own for anyone who likes Mexican food of any kind.
I don't watch much TV, but Amazon says that he's "host of the PBS-TV series Cooking Mexican," so prolly that's the same guy.
Honestly, the ones that like ya too much give me the willies. KWIM? Like, what's the hurry? It's not a footrace...
Oh puleeeze...what if you fall in love? Do you not show it? Do we play games? ...don't return calls, don't answer calls...don't show up for dates...act like you don't give a effing flying eff!
This was DW "I am never going to let you go...I am crazy about you...you are the most stunning, beautiful woman I have met...tell me you love me, tell me you won't ever get sick of me"
Me - "I do love you and I won't ever get sick of you" fast forward two months - DW, DW where did you go? Hello????? Where did you go?"
I was crazy about him...from the moment I met him, and he felt the same. blech, blech, blech
I HATE dating, I HATE games, I HATE liars...
Weaver<<<<pissed off and fed up.
Thanks for the more lovely image J...but I had that one all along. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
So Greycloud has the other kind of girl problems now - they won't leave him alone.
Ha ha ha ha hee hee haaaaa ha. Grey, you bring tears to my eyes. I think you are doing this on purpose to get Binder.
The thing is, I think Binder had the same kind of problems.
Weaver............ OK, I won't ask. Hugs though. {{{{{{{{{{Weaver}}}}}}}}}}
Hi J. SS waves !!! I do a lot of thinkng, but I wish I was better at it. This journey is so interresting. The hard parts are so difficult, but the good parts ........ Mmmmmm. How could it be any other way?
Kimmy, Thanks once again for making me hungry in the middle of the afternoon. I love Mexican, but my recipies usually start with me opening the fridge and saying "What can I make out of this?"
I admit though, I did use a recipe to make Chili Rellenoes once, and they turned out OK.
Thanks Grey, it was YOU who started the food discussion. How do you keep your weight down?
And BTW, I never did hear more about your whiz bang stuff at work. How did it turn out?
FAITHFULLLLLLLLLLL !!! Is it going well? Improving? Stalled? Date Last week? Com'on, details, details.
Weaver, I was also wondering how P is doing? Right along with wondering how you are. And .......... sorry for the hard parts.
Hi SS! Just was thinking about you yesterday. Not sure what to call it right now to tell the truth. Day by day? Waiting to see? Got the whole truth out of him last week after all this time...still dealing with processing that and deciding what I want.
Well, FF, I got these eyes from cryin', and you'd have to take those too, which I doubt you'd go for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS, P is just fine...spends most of her time in front of the mirror dancing, or on the phone. LOL
Gray, I want to makes those chicken/spinach tacos but I don't drink anymore...
I'm still stuck on your comment about the crazy chicks who only want you more when you hide from them. That is bothering me...but I'll find some peace with it soon I think.
No drinking, no smoking and no dating for me for three months (I have a tendency to self-medicate after getting dumped so I am making this goal) ...probably be keeping the ole campfire stoked for all y'all now.
And I think we all got our eyes from crying... we must have the most beautiful eyes around.
Sorry about that comment, weaver. It wasn't cute as it seemed when I wrote it.
FWIW, I haven't been dishonest or tricky or played games with anyone. Not that I ever had before...
I'm worried that someone who knows better is putting herself in a position to get hurt. See, she knows I don't want an exclusive relationship, and says she just likes spending time with me and doesn't care, and that as long as she knows I feel that way, she can keep herself safe. She said almost exactly that.
I usually believe her. Today I believe her. She's going to the movies with some dude. But I don't always.
Weaver, the tacos are almost as good without alcohol.
I didn't get how your R with that fellow got to where it is. I remember you learned he had "social anxiety" problems and thought it might be better to back off.
Then a little ago one of your posts made it seem like you felt rejected.
I think you're okay, but it's hard to tell how attached you got to the guy.
If anyone knows a competent babysitter in the DC (preferably Bethesda) area, send 'em my way. I need one for tomorrow morning. Yes, that's nine hours from now. And counting.
Gray, he was dishonest about something and I can't seem to get past it...I am very angry but I know all anger comes from fear, so it's my problem I know. I can't handle any kind of dishonesty anymore...J was right, people like that with esteem problems will destroy your soul.
As far as your friend, as long as you are honest it is her choice to stay involved with you knowing that you won't commit. If she gets hurt, it will be an honest hurt...very, very different from hurt which results from anothers dishonesty. Just stay honest and you can't go wrong.
My favorite aunt, my mother's closest sister, died today.
Her husband had been married once before. His first wife cheated on him, and they were divorced. A while later he met my aunt. They got married and raised their son and daughter in the Northeast. My uncle was an engineer.
It was always my uncle's dream to run a sheep farm, and after their kids were both out of college, aunt and uncle dropped everything and bought a sheep farm in Wisconsin. It was the prettiest farm you ever saw, on the side of a bluff near the Wisconsin River in Spring Green, a short walk down the road from Frank Lloyd Wright's house called "Taliesin".
They ran the farm for maybe ten years and then retired, but stayed on the property.
Eleven years ago, my uncle died suddenly.
A few months later, sparrow and I and my parents visited my aunt at the farm. Sparrow and I were newlyweds. My aunt took me aside and spoke quietly to me.
"Gray, you know, [uncle] and I didn't always see eye to eye, but we were always kind to each other. Remember to do that with her. And let me tell you something. I didn't expect to lose [uncle] so soon, but it gives me so much peace to know that I helped him have his dream. Do that for her too. And if she won't do it for you..."
Then she stuck out her tongue and gave sparrow a raspberry.
She was kind of a harda$$. I was crazy about her. She fought cancer for three years. A few weeks ago she told my mom she wanted me to have her records, and was picking through them, telling Mom about the ones she thought I'd like.
Gray - today I did the sound for a memorial for a pilot from our church. He worked for customs. He was an interceptor. He was a marine, and trained f-18 pilots. He stayed with his plane until he was out of a residential area, and when he ejected his plane was too low for his chute to deploy. He gave his life for many others.
I was blown away by the service.
My favorite quote was about him - "Butch did not know mediocracy. He would not even know where to find it." Apparently he lived every aspect of his life that way. He has two kids - 2 and 4 years old.
The service was on the Miday aircraft carrier. I wore my grandfathers navy hat to commemorate him. The ceremony was beautiful.
I lift this toast to - Dorrene. To my grandfather. To both of my grandmothers. To Butch.
GC, I'm so glad you posted this. When I was a small child, I lived near the Wisconsin River, upriver from Spring Green in Portage. My parents had a cottage about a mile upriver from where I-90 crosses the Wisconsin River. I was painting a picture for HoFS the other night, using that location, and another one up in Door County, as a basis. Up on a bluff above a river, with quiet walking spaces above and below, places to greet the day when the sun rises, places to visit with neighbors in the late afternoon, places for meditation and writing and cooking and quiet laughter.
I forgot to include the porch. Important, that porch. A wrap-around with rocking chairs.
Anyway. Thanks, Gray, because you remind me of that place that lives in my heart as much as anywhere else. And thanks, because your aunt's words remind me of how important it is to fulfill your love's dreams, and your life's dreams.
One day, when DD is all grown up, or maybe sooner, I'll drop everything and live the dream, too.
The tides of life ebb, and flow. If we stay on the shore we miss the interaction. If we wade out we sometimes get swept off our feet.
Sometimes getting knocked down makes us laugh. Sometimes it makes us cry. Often we just realize it's part of life, and we just think about it, knowing it's the way things are.
{{{{{{{{{{everyone}}}}}}}}}}
When the fire burns low, and you stare into the coals, and think.......... remember that there are others around the fire who care about you, and wish you well.
J, another aunt and uncle of mine had a place in I think Merrimac. Just a trailer for weekend getaways. I remember sitting in my uncle's boat while he weaved us around among the sandbars.
Out of the blue, perhaps. But I found this quote somewhat cool:
"Space is an illusion, and time as well. There is no such factor as either time or space. We have been blinded by our own cleverness, blinded by false perceptions of those qualities that we term eternity and infinity. There is another factor that explains it all, and once this universal factor is recognized, everything grows simple. There is no longer any mystery, no longer any wonder, no longer any doubt; for the simplicity of it all lies before us— "
Wow, such beauty around the campfire today...I'm awed by all of these last posts.
I don't have anything quite so beautiful as all of you have posted, just another thought to go with 2longs -
Yes, time and space are an illusion, and we the creators of that illusion. ACIM says that God did not create the universe, in fact he doesn't even know it exists.
I could go on, but that thought alone is quite enough to wrap our tiny little brains around...don't you think?
But 2long, what is the other factor which explains it all according to Simak?
I think he may have intended 2 leave it 2 the reader!
Ac2ally, I don't remember. I found that from a website with quotes from his writings and scifi books. I read the book probably over 30 years ago. He may have had a "principle" that was discovered during the course of the story that I don't recall.
He talked about "destiny" a lot in his stories like it was some benevolent principle behind the universe.
-ol' 2long.
P.S. I need 2 take a break from here. My blood has boiled over a lot in the past few weeks. I need 2 put it in the fridge. I'll be over on the 4ums at iloveulove dot com or you can contact me at qfwfq at iloveulove dot com, if anybody notices my absense! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Oh wait. Once a geek, always a geek. I still occasionally have the urge to go get a PhD in applied math or something. I fight it off, but geez. It's like a fungus. Once you've had it, it's impossible to get rid of it.
These days, I just say things like, "I can't believe that they referred to FAR Part 15 while they were working on an A&E procurement. They're going to have to shift all the references over to FAR Part 36 and completely change the evaluation criteria while they're at it. The solicitation sections are all wrong.... Sections L and M don't EXIST for this kind of procurement! Argh!! This is crazy!"
I sound like a freaking lawyer. (Actually, I sound like a Federal government contracting officer, which is even worse.)
Faithful, Have you talked about it, and I missed it? Do you WANT to talk about it?
Can we help in any way?
You seem to be quiet about yourself, and you are reaching out to help others. I like the reaching out part, but the quiet (unless I missed something) worries me at times.
SS chuckles OK - you know I ask because I worry about you. Not worry you will crash, but worry about all the things you cope with. Worry that you will get tired. Worry that it gets to you.
If Kimmy is helping, you are in good hands. She's good people. Makes me feel lots, and lots better.
Yes, sleeping better and no longer looking 10 years older due to stress. My boy is getting bigger and heavier but he is still the light of my life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Yes, DD is getting better. More secure in her relationship with her dad which at 13 is so very important. I pray for a day that all this stress is but a memory.
But there's still lots of bad stuff. Enough to make me worry at times. I thought it was a limited resource, and that after a couple of years passed, it would just be exhausted.
I wish I could forgive the people who hurt me. I want to, and need to, but I can't. I continue falling prey to the reminders of what was taken from me.
As everything started two years ago, I'd begun wanting to start a family. On her way out the door, my former wife accused me of the opposite, then told me a selfish person like me would be no good as a father. Finally she put me as distant from the possibility as she could.
I've recently been bombarded with reminders of just how distant. It's not the end of the world. And I'm still young enough. Shoot, my feelings about it are so vague that I didn't even figure out until a few days ago what was making me so blue.
I think when families are broken apart in divorce, children must help their parents feel as if they years they spent with their former partners weren't wasted.
I feel like I may as well have spent 1993-2005 in prison. Seems like all I have from those years are memories that make me sad.
SS, despite the depressing tone of this post, I do have happy thoughts, lots of them. One of the things I like about my life now, that I'm grateful for, is the feeling that I'm not really afraid of anything... except maybe letting go of my effing pain.
Believer, that struck me as ridiculous too.....a man that will have an affair, abandon his infant and her mother is a better father? Give me a break......then get married to him when obviously the sanctity of the institution means sooooooo much to her. That woman deserves chronic kidney stones.
Happy Valentine's Day, everybody. Especially the ones who think Valentine's Day is for other people. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
The girl who likes me gave me a tiny little Valentine. It was just the thing. She does know what she's doing.
Our gig went well. Doing a set of tunes you don't know feels a little like your very first gig. Screwups, nerves, etc. Had a good crowd for a weeknight. As the band after us got going, it started thinning out. My band had probably the peak audience. If our rhythm section had put more effort in, it would have been a little bit better set.
My female friend helped me load my stuff in my car, and charged a small toll. She wanted to come home with me, but I said no. She asked, "Is it okay that I asked?" I told her it was fine.
I gave her a goodnight kiss, said Happy Valentines' Day. She said, "Night sweety," and off she went. I still don't think she's the girl for me, but she sure is cool.
... and charged a small toll. She wanted to come home with me, but I said no.
Good for you.
I gave her a goodnight kiss, said Happy Valentines' Day. She said, "Night sweety," and off she went. I still don't think she's the girl for me, but she sure is cool.
So much for your pose as a forever-loser no-girl-is-ever-going-to-look-at-me-again pose. You're sooooo busted!
Even if she's not "the girl for me."
I've been there. The right one is around somewhere, promise. But first you have the rest of your healing to do. And then, well, the right girl could be literally anyone. Including this one. But if she's not right now, then you're absolutely right in stopping at a good-night kiss.
So much for your pose as a forever-loser no-girl-is-ever-going-to-look-at-me-again pose.
My pose as a pose? Haw haw!
J, I think they call this sorta thing "the exception that proves the rule."
I was disappointed last night, actually. There was a group of girls, and one of them caught my eye. They danced during our set and howled when I bantered, but after we got off stage, they was gone! Maybe for the best, since my girl+friend was there and despite an explicit agreement that we aren't a couple, it might have made her feel bad if I'd been chatting up some other woman, and I doubt I'd have done it.
Tonight I had dinner with Jayne and the Giraffe and the Giraffe's mother. Lotsa fun. Their house (right here in the neighborhood) is impressive. I don't see why they prefer to stay here all the time! Geez, I wish they stayed over there now and then! My roommate is a great kid, but man, he's ALWAYS here.
That's cool GC.....I talk a good story, but casual sex has never been my thing either...my friends look at me funny when I say that. Ah well....my soul...I'll do with it as I please.
Just got the "judgment" in the mail today… STBXWW has dropped all demand at changing the parenting arrangement and signed the forms she needed to…my D is final on Mar. 17. I will continue to get my children every weekend until my daughter reaches school age. Then we will “review” it as stated in the separation agreement. Maybe I’ll go for full custody…..I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.
Back to you GC. I think caution is the key. Too many people I know have left one relationship to rebound into another disasterous one….just cuz it’s a relationship and they are uncomfortable being single. Your reluctance to “glom” onto this woman bodes well for you me thinks. I have no doubt your attraction to the next love of your life will be a cautious and deliberate one. I wish you well in that regard.
It wouldn't have been casual for her, that is for sure, so I am proud of you too Gray, for being a man who would never play with anothers heart.
Actually there is no such thing as casual sex...there is nothing casual about it, although some would like to treat it that way.
Sex is a celebration of love, and it was meant to bind us in ways we can't even begin to understand...although lots try! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
There are a few people I know who appear to treat sex casually. I always wonder about the damage to them. Yes, their souls, and their psyches and physical bodies, too.
The few times I had sex (when I was young and stupid) without a strong binding love, I was left feeling hollow and rotten, as if something awful had been planted in my soul. I think it happened twice. After the second time, I never did it again.
I suspect I still have much to learn about the possibilities of physical intimacy when the bindings between the people have been made unbreakable in other ways. (Divorce doesn't, in my view, break some of the bonds that are created between spouses. Some of them are never broken, no matter what happens. I think that's true, even, when one of them dies.)
What's scary about it, of course, is that when you create the space necessary to contain that level of positive emotions, you also run the risk of creating a space that can contain that same level of negative emotions. Scary, for sure.
Coming of age in the midst of the sexual revelution did a lot of damage to a lot of us on a personal level (I do think some good came from it though), and learning from my mistakes I want of course for my daughter to avoid them. Not going into my young teenage history too much here...and it didn't help that we got NO sex ed from our parents. I didn't even know what sex was the first time I had it, didn't have a clue what the guy was going to do...
Anyway Ark had posted this some time ago and I copied it as I thought it was very good for us who have children, as maybe a little helper for those discusions. I have them frequently with my daughter and have ever since she was old enough to be curious (five).
Ark, hope you don't mind -
"Sex outside of true commitment (for teens)
I have been involved in a lot teenage mentoring thru different youth groups in my time.... and have had many many discussions with teens about human sexuality as it exists within their lives.... relating both to the good and sinful part....
When discussing this in relationship to sin...I would never say the deed is the sin..... that sex is bad.... sex is wonderful....yippeeee!!!!!!!!!!
but it's deeper than that...
the sex part is the easiest part of it all... it's the other stuff... that's hard... and teenagers are like affair partners...they do the easy feel good stuff without the ability to care for and nuture the other stuff... and sometimes this using of eachother causes great damage..for they don't have resources to change this fact or go back and un-do damage... they give up parts of themselves...
there in lies the sin in my opinion for they disregard the deeper needs of eachother...and meet only the feel good ones...
they disregard the need for true companionship true ability to be there for someone 1000%
and in essence they sell themselves and the other person out.... teens can't logistically meet eachothers needs they lack the resources... and it is only a reflection of what can be....
WS and OP take from eachother the act...without backing it up with the actions that human nature really craves....(realizing my paint brush is very very broad here)
Each physical contact no matter how good it feels... [Roll Eyes] leaves them emptier than they were ...
It can not nuture their soul... it leaves to many empty spaces...
sex within a committed relationship proves nothing...and is never used to prove anything...it is only an extended celebration of the gift of sexuality...the ones that go on outside of the bedroom...
there is something very sad about the using and abusing this God given gift...
it truly is a weapon of proving something that can not be proven in the act alone...
It is a selfish attempt to feel good about what they are doing.....and it is a futile pursuit...
and it leaves them empty somewhere deep inside...some come to realize that... some bury it deep... and deny that...and keep filling that space with the easy part...hoping it will fullfil them and be enough... but I don't think it is enough.... and in the end it's just really a sad way to connect with someone while professing to love them soooooo much... [Roll Eyes]
sexual contact within an affair...becomes everything that God's gift should not be..."
ARK Posts: 2568 | Registered: Sep 2001 | IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator ForeverHers Member Member # 19263
Icon 1 posted December 31, 2004 06:49 AM Profile for ForeverHers Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote JMHO, Ark, but a pretty good post!
The difference between "to lie with," and "to know."
Well I am breaking my "no dating for three months" rule. I re-joined eharmony today. I can't stand thinking about DW anymore so am taking my nephews advice that the best way to get over someone is to get right back out there.
FF, I have to admit, I still think about them and find myself confused.
They were, by all appearances, okay people before. I can say lots of things about my ex that make her look bad, but both my ex and her AP were (mostly) decent and trustworthy.
And they probably are now, too. They've hurt people in the past. There are at least two people besides me and car4love and our "teams" who won't associate with my ex, and I don't entirely know why.
But before I digress any farther... my main point is, I don't expect my ex to ever make amends for what she's done, or be handicapped much by it. I think she'll carry on just fine, and never suffer much of a penalty, and still by all appearances, and by most of her actions, be an okay person. I actually believe these two have excused themselves for what they've done. I don't agree that their marriage is sure to fail. I have trouble seeing them as wicked schemers.
This dissonance between what ought to happen and what will happen is more than unfair. It's an illustration that there's no reason to expect justice, ever. The world just doesn't work that way. "Life is unfair" doesn't do it justice. It's a profound thing to know.
I try not to think about those two, but I can't help it. Last night I had my most common recurring dream. I meet my ex and unload a massive tirade on her. She snickers and scoffs. I slap her across the face. She slaps me back.
I don't suppose I've all the way accepted that "life is unfair", but I am trying.
It is funny, GC. I always tell me DD that life is not fair and she cannot expect it to be. I want HER to be good and be accountable for her actions but she cannot expect everyone else in this world to be the same. No, I don't think sparrow will ever get it which is why I tempered my response to calling her and tinman "selfish" because truely that is what their actions were. I hope and pray they will at least be decent to car4love and her children now and into the future. You are a good man, GC which is why it is hard for you to deal IMHO with the injustice of the world.
I learned something this evening - from an old Perry Mason rerun.
The term "emotional affair" has been around for at least 40 years. They used it on a Perry Mason episode, in such a way that it was obvious what they meant - which is exactly what it means now.
My W and I were watching it 2gether. I was browsing ebay motors (collectibles before 1939 - I don't "do" the new stuff!), and she stroked my arm when the term came up.
It was a good evening. But I've had some good ones before. This one was after a few particularly "bad" ones, with reminders and triggers of the A, and her continuing contact, all over. Last night, though, she asked me "will we be okay?" And I answered half-honestly "I don't know." In retrospect, I probably was being as honest as I could have been (remembering that honesty is about feelings), because what I thought would have been a more "honest" answer - "No", would have been more reactionary than honest. So, I'm glad I said what I did. It seems to be having an effect.
And it was better than a "non-answer" I gave earlier, when she said "at some point we're going 2 each have 2 compromise", because I wanted 2 insist that there was no compromising when RM is concerned - he simply must go. Forever. But I didn't say that. I said something else that I can't remember. Sort of a conflict-avoider, probably.
Oh well. I didn't come here 2 pi$$ in my own cheerios. We cut down a couple pepper trees last week, and the logs burn a really long time (when dry), and smell good. Here's a cord or 2.
"Young Rob stands with his axe in hand, yeah, Believin' that the crops are in. Firewood stacked, ten by ten, For the wife, the folks, the kids, And all of the kin... ...and a friend."
Pepper trees grow like weeds. We still have 2. They'll fill the holes in the yard in short order. Got 2 be where every year they'd drop a ton of branches in the street during windstorms. So far, nobody's been under those, and thankfully, now they're gone.
Just browsing, mostly. I don't have time 2 restore cars at the moment. I was going 2 pay 2 have my Model A restored, but it 2rns out that would cost 20-30K, and there's a restored one just like it on ebay this week for less than 14K.
We have a pic2re of the house taken in 1918, showing a big touring car in the driveway. I'd love 2 have a big brass-era touring car 2 go along with the house (since there's no room or zoning for a horse and buggy anymore), but I wouldn't restore it myself. These days, everyone wants 2 collect muscle cars, so the older cars are not so expensive (or aren't growing in cost all that fast). They're purdier, 2.
I've been over there...at the edge...in the shrubbery.... listening in since 'nov/04.....
once, J dropped one of those amazing cookies she brought....I nabbed it as it rolled past my feet....it was just what I needed...
And here all this time I thought it was the forest echoing with laughter...no wait that's a song. I just knew there was something out there scrambling around eating the dropped cookies and softly chuckling.
Good to see you Apie, wise and funny weaver of fish tales that you are.
Me, I'm taking souloss's place in the trees because I've become just way too confrontational lately...time for me to chill for awhile.
Gray, how's the cool girl doing? I'm routing for her you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Sorry weaver, I don't think it's going anywhere. She keeps insisting that my lack of interest in an exclusive relationship doesn't matter, and I'm still uneasy.
She's older than me by a little too much. Even though I say I'm not looking for anything serious, the truth is that I want to date women who are younger than she is. I have more of an agenda than I admit to.
Sorry weaver, I don't think it's going anywhere. She keeps insisting that my lack of interest in an exclusive relationship doesn't matter, and I'm still uneasy.
She's older than me by a little too much. Even though I say I'm not looking for anything serious, the truth is that I want to date women who are younger than she is. I have more of an agenda than I admit to.
Okay I get it now, and agree with Faith. Trust your instincts.
FAR,
You can only cry in your beer for ONE beer...then it's time to let go all your cares, & enjoy the fireside company. Good for the soul.
That's why I keep coming back...familiar faces are sometimes all that is needed.
HI Faith...(said it first this time) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Hi Soulloss. Good to see you here at the campfire. I've been missing from it for a while, myself.
Tonight I've had four ibuprofen, two Aleve, and a glass of red wine. Oh, and earlier today I did a wicked nasty thing to my back. "Wrenched" and "threw out" seem to be the words most people use for this state. Myself, I think of it as taking my lower back and freezing all the muscles into an uncomfortable and entirely useless knot. *sigh*
SS, I'm doing well. I'm settling into my life. I have a hard time with some parts, still. Like GC, I like the idea of more parenthood. It's hard to see how that could happen, though, in the present circumstances. That makes me sad.
And yes, that method of finding a path is working for me. I'm not as, err, religious (chuckle) about it as I could be. But gratitude works really well for me, and compassion. I'm not nearly so angry as I once was. Being a parent challenges me a lot, and I have more opportunities to be angry over things like children having tantrums in grocery stores. But I react to it less, so it balances out that on the whole I'm less angry even with the increased opportunities. That's a good thing, I think.
GC, give car4love my love. I admire her strength.
You talk about sparrow and tinman, and how they are generally decent people who probably won't pay for anything they've done. I think similar things about my ex and her husband. They're generally decent people who did a pretty awful thing. And because they're generally decent people, and because the rest of the world doesn't want to destroy the entire fabric of society by ostracizing everyone who does this one awful thing, maybe they will not face any external consequences.
But I know people who have been the wayward spouses, and they've talked to me about how it has affected their lives long afterwards. It doesn't mean that their lives fall apart in any significant way. The people I know are thoughtful and aware enough to see that "having" to make a marriage worthwhile puts way too much pressure on you to accept things that really aren't okay. It's a subtle thing, though, and it can take years to show up in any truly conscious way.
Life doesn't give you grand gestures. It just gives you lots of opportunities to learn.... and eventually some of us do.
Oh, and today is Soulloss's birthday. So I brought a cake. I hope nobody minds. It seemed like the thing to do.
Check out James Blunt - he is awsome!!!! 2long you would love his stuff...he has really neat lyrics like Peter Gabriel, but reminds me of John Mayer...check out the Bedlam Album if you do.
SS - this is for you, for being such a good friend and mentor to all of us here.
James Blunt - Cry Lyrics
I have seen peace. I have seen pain, Resting on the shoulders of your name. Do you see the truth through all their lies? Do you see the world through troubled eyes? And if you want to talk about it anymore, Lie here on the floor and cry on my shoulder, I'm a friend.
I have seen birth. I have seen death. Lived to see a lover's final breath. Do you see my guilt? Should I feel fright? Is the fire of hesitation burning bright? And if you want to talk about it once again, On you I depend. I'll cry on your shoulder. You're a friend.
You and I have been through many things. I'll hold on to your heart. I wouldn't cry for anything, But don't go tearing your life apart.
I have seen fear. I have seen faith. Seen the look of anger on your face. And if you want to talk about what will be, Come and sit with me, and cry on my shoulder, I'm a friend. And if you want to talk about it anymore, Lie here on the floor and cry on my shoulder, I'm a friend.
Birthday Cake? Why not….terrible with beer though….if that’s possible. I guess I’ll switch to some of that cowboy coffee off to the side of the fire. Nofoamycinnamonyfroththycappuccinoey faux coffee for us rugged survivors. Just a handfull of already ground in a can of boiling water…..a little added cold water should settle the grinds…..mmmmmmmmmmmmm.
“guilt always seeks punishment"
What if you don’t feel guilty?
I think you’re right though Weaver……probably in proportion to the efforts of the BS to save the marriage. I think, not expecting or even hoping, that when my STBX has her unsustainable affair end she will then reflect. She will see that she had a full 18 mos to change her mind before I even filed. She will have to justify this to our children one day too.
It's at an unconscious level I believe Binder...and it might manifest as anger/depression among other things, finally (and hopefully) resulting in atonement and self-forgiveness.
On a metaphysical level, guilt would also arise from the failure to forgive others.
We have all hurt others and metaphysically speaking there are no lesser or greater degrees of hurting others.
And going back to 2longs post regarding "Radical forgiveness", when we finally arrive at the place of holiness or enlightenment we understand that there was never anything to forgive. We are all trying to find our own paths, as hard as that is to accept about the people we loved and trusted, especially when it involves a spouse who has broken vows and upset our children's safe and loving home.
Of course when children are involved I still have trouble aligning myself to this line of thinking...
Weaver: “Me, I'm taking souloss's place in the trees because I've become just way too confrontational lately...time for me to chill for awhile.”
You need to go fishing more often. Here, take one of my extra poles out at dawn. And here’s a can of leftover worms for bait. Squiggly things aren’t they.
2long: How big do pepper trees get? You make them sound sort of like weeds. I am very familiar with fruit orchards, cherry especially. But I’ve never heard of pepper trees. Do they grow real pepper? And OK, I’m going to look into Radical Forgiveness.
((FF)) – Just a hug. Stay warm by the fire.
Well, hand me my underwater lantern there will you? And my box of dynamite is around here somewhere. I’m meeting Bigfoot down by the lake for some night fishing. Ah, here it is, I seem to be sitting on it…
Ours don't get as tall as a house, because our house is so tall! (about 40 feet). The trees get about 30 feet tall, and do so rather quickly.
From what we can tell, the trungs that were about 18 inches in diameter were only about 20 or 25 years old, though they must have sprung up a bunch of times from the original trees planted 119 years ago.
2day is not a good day. My W emailed me and asked me why I opened the phone bill. I told her "curiosity". She then asked "is there no trust?"
Cripes. I thought we were evolvec beyond such nonsense.
What I want 2 do here: Been talking with Spacecase about his experiences with radical forgiveness - arguably the most helpful thing for healing he must have experienced. I remember the discussions we had around that time, about 3 years ago. I remember feeling like "yeah, that's really neat and lofty stuff, but so impossible 2 achieve".
It may be very very difficult, but I believe it is essential for me.
I'm going to repost the passage 2long posted, and then because I believe it has it's basis in "ACIM", I am going to post briefly something ILULOVE has from ACIM on forgiveness...just because to me this was the key...the missing piece in learning to forgive -
Quote
"I remembered something I had heard many years ago. It was on a tape by Arnold Patent. He said, “forgiveness is not letting bygones be bygones. It is coming to the realization that, seen from the spiritual perspective, nothing wrong ever happened. Therefore there is nothing to forgive.”
It was in that moment that RADICAL Forgiveness was born. Though it is a very radical statement, it nevertheless made perfect sense to me in that moment. I knew exactly what he meant. I saw in that moment that as spiritual beings having a human experience we are co-creating our lives with Spirit moment by moment. And every experience we have is divinely planned and orchestrated for our soul's growth. The principal reason for our journey is to heal the dream of separation and to remember who we are. Our Higher Selves attract others into our lives so we can play out the drama of separation for each other."
From the perspective of ACIM, according to summary by someone (forgot who) -
Quote
13. Forgiveness also undoes the blocks that separate us from others, allowing us to experience the fact that we are one.
Our anger and blame made it seem that others were different from us, that we were the good guys and they were evil. Their interests appeared to be separate from ours, in competition with ours. They seemed to be forever seeking happiness at our expense. As a result, we recoiled from them in fear, rather than joined with them in love. Forgiveness undoes all this. It peels away the monstrous mask which we had superimposed onto our brothers and reveals them to be beautiful and innocent. It shows us that they are the same as us, with the same needs, the same desires, the same worth and the same interests. It awakens our love for them and desire to unite with them. And as our minds go out and join with theirs, we experience the fact that we are not isolated egos; that despite it all we still are part of the universal oneness.
I have been reading ACIM on and off for six years, and it is just now starting to make sense to me so I know how hard this is to swallow.
Oh I meant to post the 12th summarization of ACIM Spacecase's website has not the 13th, so here it is -
Quote
12. Extending forgiveness to others reveals to us that we too are forgiven. This becomes our one function.
Our forgiveness heals the minds of others, which, like our own, are laboring under the terrible burden of guilt. Yet forgiving others heals our own minds as well. For, in our eyes, what we give to others is proof of what we are and what we deserve. When we gave attack, that proved to our minds that we were guilty and deserved to receive punishment. But now we have let that go and instead see miracles go forth from us. This proves to us that the Cause of healing is still within us, that holiness still abides in us undefiled, after we all we think we have done; and that we deserve to receive not pain, but love and gratitude. Thus, by saving others we save ourselves. This becomes our one function: to bring healing to all minds through our forgiveness, and so to experience forgiveness ourselves.
Faithful, my W is not feeling well today, she didn't go to work. Some kind of flu I think.
So, no date tonight.
Last week we went to see the new "Pink Panther" movie with Steve Martin. I was all prepared not to like it, but it was GOOD!
I woke up this morning, and got the twins off to school, and my W said she wasn't feeling well. I got back in bed, and rubbed her back for a time. After she drifted off to sleep I thought for a while.
Just the normal stuff for the most part. What I had to do when I got to work. Big things I have going on this next week.
The radio played, I listened to songs and thought about how they correlate to life, and reflect our feelings.
I thought a little bit about many of you. I won't go into all that came to mind. I will say I have high hopes your future.
That reminds me - Binder, please email me. ssatoutdooroutlet.com insert the proper symbol for the word "at".
Work has been busy, Not much time to post lately. Just finished one phase of a project, now on to the next, and I should be working now probably, but I haven't had much of a lunch hour since before Christmas, so I think I'll take a few minutes.
Have you noticed that it's hard to concentrate when you are tired?
I think mostly we limit ourselves ........... more than having limits that are placed upon us.
I had one man say to me once "you can make lots of money selling Amway." I think he was right, but I didn't want to sell Amway. (still don't) We are happy to stay where we are, so ........... we stay. Often we don't know how good it could be to make a change, or how happy we could be, or would be if we got outside our comfort zone and made some drastic changes.
MB did that for me. I hope it wouldn't be to dramatic to say that what I learned changed my life, and my marriage for the better. I suppose it's not just what you learn, but what you do with what you learn.
The limits are mostly enforced by our fears, not by sound reason. We fear the unknown. This poem says it well -
It's only the view from where you sit that makes you fear defeat.
Life is full of many aisles why don't you change your seat?
Some say it thus - If what you are doing is not working, why don't you try something else?
Often we won't even admit that what we are doing is not working.
Did I ever say that I like campfires? It's even better when your friends are with you.
We are happy to stay where we are, so ........... we stay. Often we don't know how good it could be to make a change, or how happy we could be, or would be if we got outside our comfort zone and made some drastic changes.
How do you know what changes you could make that would change your life? How do you know where you are stuck and what you are doing wrong?
Weaver, thanks for posting that stuff about forgiveness. Especially the one you didn't mean to post, 'cause it actually means a lot to me.
I've spent most of the last two hours sitting here and thinking about it. Not very easy thoughts, all in all. Thoughts about how little I've forgiven my ex. Thoughts about the conscious choices I've made not to forgive -- because that separation is still important to me.
Separation -- she being the bad, me being the good. Separation -- she being in the wrong, me settling in to wait on a marriage that died ... oh, probably on 9/11/2001. Separation -- believing that it is not safe to have a connection to someone who tried to sever the connection between a parent and a child.
Stupid, that last one, if you look at it right. Severing a connection because someone tried and failed to sever a connection. But ... also not stupid. Just imperfect.
There is still considerable fear and anger, there, at this woman who destroyed so much of my life, who tried to destroy so much more.
So much emotion, still, around someone who I would rather I had never met. Someone I can still see for the person I loved for two decades. Someone I can still see for the person I hated for two years.
So much emotion around someone that I really don't expect to understand ever again.
I wish her well. I genuinely want her to be happy. But, that wish is still just like the blessing for the Czar. "God bless her and keep her... far away from me."
And like Binder, I know that I waited for a long time. During that time, she said many variations of, "It's over, don't you get it? It's OVER. You're deluding yourself."
And let's take that, for a moment, the way you would take it when you're telling a small child that the movie is over. Not in the angry denial way that we usually attribute to wayward spouses -- because we want them to come back to watching the movie with us -- but let's take it as the gentle and unalterable truth. The movie's over, sweetheart. It's time to go home now.
There must surely be some wayward spouses who get to that point. There must surely be some who get there sooner, others who get there later.
Odd... even the waywards I know who've been divorced for a long time don't get to that quiet reality. There is always fireworks in it. The external manifestation of the internal struggle, I suppose, to make it true -- and true without it being their fault, at that.
Huh. Song in the top 95 seems appropriate just now.
It's better this way I say Having seen this place before Where everything we say and do Hurts us all the more It's that we've stayed too long In the same old sickly skin Pulled down by the undertow I never thought I could feel so low In all the darkness I feel like letting go...
If all of the strength And all of the courage Come and lift me from this place I know I can love you much better than this....
Full of Grace
I know I can love you much better than this...
It's better this way
I watched her carry DD away from my door tonight. I watched DD's face fall as she realized it was the end of our fun.
I felt, again, the rising hope that I felt so many times before. I can love you. I can find a way through all this.
And then I watched her and DD join my ex's new husband.
It's better this way.
It's not really.
It's just the way it is.
The move is over, sweetheart. Time to go home and go to bed. You can watch a different one tomorrow, and for a while you can forget that that one will end, too.
Did I mention that I watched him kiss whipped cream off of her nose from a distance of about 24 inches a few weeks ago? Looking back on it, I'm amazed that my reaction was what it was. "You kids. Haven't you gotten over being newlyweds yet?"
Perhaps it would've been wiser to shove his face into the ice cream. But probably not.
I hate taking the wise course sometimes. Surely a Three Stooges level ice cream fight would've been cathartic for all of us.
So I dunno. I have a lot to think about, still, when it comes to forgiveness.
And I think perhaps it's time to stop and stir the fire, perhaps do my Why We Love homework.
I'll leave you with another set of lyrics, from earlier this evening.
"A Love Before Time"
If the sky opened up for me, And the mountain disappeared, If the seas ran dry, turned to dust And the sun refused to rise I would still find my way, By the light I see in your eyes The world I know fades away But you stay
As the earth reclaims it due And the cycle starts anew We'll stay, always In the love that we have Shared before time
If the years take away Every memory that I have I would still know the way That would lead me back to your side The north star may die But the light that I see in your eyes Will burn there always
Lit by the love we have Shared before time
When the forest turns to jade And the stories that we've made Dissolve away One shining light will still remain
When we shed our earthly skin And when our real life begins There'll be no shame Just the love that we have made before time
J, the trouble is we will learn forgiveness, our relationships will become holy(healing), all our relationships... and until they do we will repeat the lesson...over and over again.
I am reading a great deal from Kenneth Wapnick who in my opinion is a brilliant clinical psychologist (who is by the way Jewish) "Jesus and Forgiveness", "the Journey Home"...and who feels that our one function on this earth is to learn forgiveness.
We project our guilt outward onto others in order to avoid our holiness(the egos greatest threat)...for if I can hate and blame others I will never have to change myself, never have to be wholly complete in myself...thereby never having to become all that I can become. Because I am afraid of my own brilliance, my own holiness and my own purpose... who wants to evolve to that level when we can stay caught up in our own pain/pleasure and littleness?
I know for me I have to find the reasons I keep attracting such devestating pain into my life...and I am getting there but I am still afraid to move into this new realm altogether because it is so easy to stay where I am with what I am comfortable with. Do I want to go all the way?
The Course says we will get to a fork in the road where we must choose which way to go...the way of the ego, or the way of holiness(peace) and that we cannot go back the way we came, we can stop there at the fork for awhile but ultimately we will choose one way or the other...it is just a matter of time.
This is why SS's questions really spoke to me...about change and being afraid.
Mmm. You're probably right, Weaver. I still try, very hard, to find compassion and connection and all those things. If it's a single choice-point, though, surely it has already passed. And surely, given the things I've written about, the ego has won.
I don't think it really feels that way from the inside. But I don't really know what it's supposed to feel like from either direction.
Then again, I'm not sure that I believe in a single choicepoint. I'm guessing that the way of ego circles around again to this same spot and you have the opportunity to make the choice again. Probably the choice of holiness does the same. Maybe we wear a path so well that the other starts to look invisible. I don't think it goes away altogether, though. There are too many examples of people who live for years in the midst of their egos -- only to finally find a way to something else.
The Buddha is an example, come to think of it. Ever read Siddhartha? It's an excellent book about a young man, a father, a warrior, who eventually becomes the Buddha after much search and much struggle and eventually time under a Boddhi tree.
As for my own path of forgiveness, I suspect that you're right that I'll see the same sights again. The same movie with different characters, played out again until it's time to go home because the movie is over.
And yet some part of each movie is eternal. I wish my ex well. And though I sometimes wish it were otherwise, I still love her. Not the "in love" kind. The kind that the friend of a friend described as, "After all this time and all that's happened, I -still- have a soft spot in my heart for the [PG-13 editing inserted]."
And, too, there is DD. Her name has many meanings, many connotations. One of the meanings is "an unbreakable bond." Her existence creates a bond between me and my ex that can never be broken. It changes the movie. Some part of it doesn't end while any of the three of us are still alive.
Then again, I'm not sure that I believe in a single choicepoint. I'm guessing that the way of ego circles around again to this same spot and you have the opportunity to make the choice again. Probably the choice of holiness does the same. Maybe we wear a path so well that the other starts to look invisible. I don't think it goes away altogether, though. There are too many examples of people who live for years in the midst of their egos -- only to finally find a way to something else.
The Buddha is an example, come to think of it. Ever read Siddhartha? It's an excellent book about a young man, a father, a warrior, who eventually becomes the Buddha after much search and much struggle and eventually time under a Boddhi tree.
I don't think I have read that book although I do know the story.
And you are exactly right about there not being only one "choicepoint" as there will be many until we make the right choice.
So the fork in the road is simply a delay tactic which the ego uses to keep us in our ego minded world...eventually we will choose the other path, it is simply a matter of time for that too...as in the story of the Buddha.
You're failure to be able to truly forgive your ex is why what 2long posted in his radical forgiveness post is so important...that we are not able to truly forgive until we understand that there was nothing to forgive in the first place.
...and until we understand that there are "no interests separate from our own" (this applies to all relationships at all levels, including at the world level)
I have been fascinated with that one single passage 2long posted ever since I read it...and now I am finally starting to understand the "there is nothing to forgive" part.
I know that I have so far to go, not in past romantic relationships so much... but because of Lemmonman's post to me on WAT's locked thread and my horrible reaction to it and subsequent ugly post, I realized that I have not forgiven the hospital staff for my mom's death. I hadn't even thought about it in a few years and the rage I felt when he posted to me is actually a blessing, because now I can look at my failure to forgive those working that night, among others and remove one more block (of many) that keep me from peace.
So in that example I chose to keep my anger/blame instead of doing what I needed to do to forgive and it came right around again (another "choicepoint"). Thankfully it was just a simple post that brought it up for healing and not another tragedy.
Hmm. I went and read that thread, Weaver. I hadn't read it until now. I see that you got pretty badly triggered.
I also see that Lemonman got pretty badly triggered.
And you both reacted in anger and fear and blame and frustration and all that stuff.
Lots of opportunities for getting back to a place of compassion. Forgiveness and compassion are not quite the same, but I don't quite have the difference in my head right now.
The fact that I'm resisting hearing what you have to say (anything that begins with "failure to..." gets my hackles up) indicates to me that I have more work to do here.
I knew that already, of course.
So I'll trudge along. Trudge trudge trudge. And I'll try my best and forgive myself for not being able to do it all. Sometimes that's okay.
I need 2 go back 2 Spacase's resources over there and re-read more of the articles about forgiveness. It sure is one of those things about life that, if you don't get it the first time around, or even if you think you do, it doesn't hurt 2 refresh your memories about the hows and whys of the process.
Like this weekend. I came home friday night thinking "hm, things are pretty normal around here, so my W maybe isn't really all that upset about the "trust' comment she made 2 me about my opening the phone bill."
But she was/is still pretty upset about it. And a lot of the time all I could think about was how utterly s2pid it is 2 be upset about something like me opening one of the bills and looking for suspiscious phone numbers on it. I kept thinking, over and over again, reduntantly, repeating myself "SHE is the one who can't be trusted, the one who should jump through hoops 2 earn my trust back! I am the injured party here! So there!!"
Part of the process of healing the hurts we don't deserve definitely does involve 2rning them in2 oppor2nities for personal growth - steering our thinker away from the self-consuming flames of negativity. I see that SC has done that. He's in a new relationship and still able 2 have a cordial relationship with his xW. And he's done it all without villifying her 2 her family and friends. Did it without exposure 2 many of them, even.
His enthusiasm for life shines through in his writing. So much so that I feel inspired whenever we correspond - and particularly when I'm feeling in pain - feeling like a victim. Heck, I get 2 see him when I go 2 Houston in a 2ple weeks! (I'll say 'hi' for folks).
Moody Blues: "Celtic Sonant"
"Deep peace of the running wave to you. Deep peace of the flowing air to you. Deep peace of the quiet earth to you. Deep peace of the shining star to you. Deep peace of the son of peace to you.
One man stood firm guarding cups overflowing, Brimful of memories and yesterday's dreams; He could never explain his own silent thunder, The ocean just blows rough at this time of year.
And the wheel keeps on turning, The wheel keeps on turning, The wheel keeps on turning, Turning around.
Words left unsaid may have special meanings, Dust hidden pages fill the books left unread. One blank page left the poet crying, He failed to remember there's a price on his head.
And the wheel keeps on turning, The wheel keeps on turning, The wheel keeps on turning, Turning around.
Away we sail with all our flags flying, Too many changes can cause us delay. Each star in the sky is there for a reason Making it so bright for this time of day.
And the wheel keeps on turning, The wheel keeps on turning, The wheel keeps on turning, This fool made it round."
It's a great thing, but I'm unconvinced that it's a universal solution to personal struggles.
I'm sick of trying to convince myself that I shouldn't feel hurt by the events that brought me here. I should, and do, and will. My values were violated, and my worst fears and doubts about myself were waved in my face by someone who said, "YES - it's all true - you suck". Hey, sometimes I do suck. Those doubts are valid. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. But so what? I know who I am, I'm mindful of my faults.
The events of the recent past are just the way specific persons decided to treat us. People with greater instincts for compassion and greater dedication to ethics wouldn't have done the same things. People who shared each of our values wouldn't have done them. Call that judgemental and unforgiving if you want. Call it anything you like. It's still true.
I don't really see why I need to forgive my former wife and wish her well. Seems like just another version of struggling against my feelings and thoughts. I think worrying about it just makes my nightmares worse.
Know what gives me comfort? Allowing my pain to exist, and letting it drift by when it comes. Instead of saying Oh no, I'm in pain. I have to change something about myself spiritually or else it'll keep coming back, it makes more sense to say, I'm in pain right now, and not for the last time, and call it good.
All that radical forgiveness business is interesting and it may have some value to people, but I have a hard time believing it's an answer. The greater the claims someone makes about a spiritual practice, the less inclined I am to believe it. They say radical forgiveness will prevent cancer. I doubt that very much.
{{J}} just cuz it must be awful to see your child leave. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, I understand...it wasn't until just now that I realized that even though I have found peace with what happened to my DS, I have NOT forgiven the doctors involved.
A little more on forgiveness if I may:
I was listening to Dennis Prager for a few minutes this morning. He said in Jewish law God cannot forgive for sins against man that only the person sinned against can offer forgiveness. However, in my faith God forgives all sins when the sinner repents and asks for forgiveness however God still calls us to ask the person we sinned against for forgiveness.
So what do you do when the person(s) who hurt you continue to do so? Who seems to have made it their life goal to continue to hurt you? I don't think forgiveness can even be considered until the person at leasts stops deliberately offending you.
The debate rages I suppose. Possibly you can forgive anything (not sure), but the one word hardly seems adequate to describe all the different circumstances that may exist.
I've probably posted about this before... consider the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa during the 90s. The effort created a safe environment where perpetrators and victims could reach out to one another. I believe the effect of this commission, obviously felt most acutely by the participants, was miraculous.
All the interviews I've seen with the guilty, the victims, and the families of victims have one thing in common: a contrite perpetrator.
But that aside, this is kind of a linguistic debate. Is forgiveness with reconciliation the same as forgiveness without it? Is forgiveness where the guilty person is sorry the same as forgiveness where he isn't? I think they're different.
People who post regularly at MB care more about forgiveness than most. IRL many perpetrators go on more or less okay without getting it, and many victims go on more or less okay without giving it.
Which isn't to say it's not something that should be offered generously and maybe even unconditionally. I just don't think forgiving your perpetrators is critical to your spiritual health.
And not forgiving them doesn't mean you don't have compassion for them.
"The events of the recent past are just the way specific persons decided to treat us. People with greater instincts for compassion and greater dedication to ethics wouldn't have done the same things. People who shared each of our values wouldn't have done them. Call that judgemental and unforgiving if you want. Call it anything you like. It's still true."
Okay, allow me 2 call it "Bob." I don't think what you describe is being judgmental of people , but of behavior. And we all need 2 be wary of errant behavior lest we allow ourselves 2 be taken advantage of in the course of feeding someone's selfish lifestyle choices. People who not only do not share our values, but are so lacking in empathy that they're able 2 cause so much harm 2 so many, should first and foremost be put at a safe distance. Then, perhaps forgiveness might be in order.
But please never forget that forgiveness is for YOUR benefit first, then the forgivee, should they care or seek your forgiveness.
"None of us wants to admit that we hate someone...When we deny our hate we detour around the crisis of forgiveness. We suppress our spite, make adjustments, and make believe we are too good to be hateful. But the truth is that we do not dare to risk admitting the hate we feel because we do not dare to risk forgiving the person we hate."
"We attach our feelings to the moment when we were hurt, endowing it with immortality. And we let it assault us every time it comes to mind. It travels with us, sleeps with us, hovers over us while we make love, and broods over us while we die. Our hate does not even have the decency to die when those we hate die--for it is a parasite sucking OUR blood, not theirs. There is only one remedy for it. [forgiveness]"
"You can forgive someone almost anything. But you cannot tolerate everything...We don't have to tolerate what people do just because we forgive them for doing it. Forgiving heals us personally. To tolerate everything only hurts us all in the long run."
"If we say that monsters [people who do terrible evil] are beyond forgiving, we give them a power they should never have...they are given the power to keep their evil alive in the hearts of those who suffered most. We give them power to condemn their victims to live forever with the hurting memory of their painful pasts. We give the monsters the last word."
"With a little time, and a little more insight, we begin to see both ourselves and our enemies in humbler profiles. We are not really as innocent as we felt when we were first hurt. And we do not usually have a gigantic monster to forgive; we have a weak, needy, and somewhat stupid human being. When you see your enemy and yourself in the weakness and silliness of the humanity you share, you will make the miracle of forgiving a little easier."
Lewis B. Smedes - Forgive & Forget: Healing the Hurts We Don't Deserve
"Forgiving does not usually happen at once. It is a process, sometimes a long one, especially when it comes to wounds gouged deep. And we must expect some lapses...some people seem to manage to finish off forgiving in one swoop of the heart. But when they do, you can bet they are forgiving flesh wounds. Deeper cuts take more time and can use a second coat."
Lewis B. Smedes - The Art of Forgiving: When You Need To Forgive And Don't Know How
I sure can identify with these. Particularly the last. At various times, I've thought I've forgiven my W, but then some silly event or reminder or trigger comes along and I feel the hurt all over again (like the silly phone bill).
This is definitely a process. For me, a protracted one. But not without its rewards. That's what keeps me going, the rewards - when I feel good about something I've said, done, or chosen.
Weaver, were we at the fire full time, we could discuss things in real time. It's a conversation I would like to have - but I doubt one night would be enough.
I'll come back in a few hours to discuss things a little more. You may be surprised.
For me it is a process too, and in some cases I have to consciously work on it...I had to make myself think of all the good in Dan, and not let myself think of the bad...pretty soon all that was left was the good and it didn't hurt anymore, and I saw his goodness and now that is all that remains in my memories of him. I think of him now almost never & the sound of the ferry horn doesn't even hurt anymore, it's like it was another lifetime ago and happened to someone else.
We ALL are both good and bad.
That is a pretty mild example though, I have been working on forgiving bigger things which hurt more deeply and like Faith says...when it is something like what happened to her baby - well that is so big.
It's a choice to forgive just like it is a choice not to, but for me it is the only way I can live.
In a recovered marriage I don't think the BS has any right to stay in a marriage when he cannot forgive...that is just as heinious (sp) as cheating in my opinion. And I know that is why 2long said he must learn to forgive completely both if they are to recover or move on in different directions. (at least I think that is what he is thinking). Of course even in a marriage which didn't recover I can't imagine not wanting the same peace for someone you loved so much, even though they could not honor their vows and were weak of character.
And I believe that forgiveness comes first...then the other person is free from their own self-loathing to forgive themselves and heal, and yes maybe it is all at the level of the mind but if we are all connected then it is at the level of the mind which connects us. And I would never want to be the cause of someone else not healing, even if they had hurt me (like I said I have a problem where kids are concerned here and don't know that I could forgive if someone hurt my daughter, but I hope so).
Even at a young age I knew we were connected this way, I always KNEW that...I found a spiritual path which supported that belief, but I also know that it is not the one which works for everyone. There are a thousand different paths (which lead to the same place)I believe, but that is another subject and debate and not one any of us wants to be involved in I bet.
I have to see the innocence in people, maybe because it is the only way I can see the innocence in myself.
Gray, I am not writing letters (except to Dan) or telling people I forgive them, it is just something which happens at the level of my mind although I believe they will experience peace too.
And your sitch is very hard because of car4love and her babies...and because they continue to hurt her and because your ex never showed any kindness whatsoever. That's a tough one so I can see why you feel the way you do, and who am I to say you aren't right.
You were also married at a young age, for a long time, and your identity was very wrapped up in the marriage...So you didn't just lose someone you loved, you lost yourself and are now trying to reforge an identity with a whole lot of scars, self-doubt and pain. Not an easy road.
It's a personal choice for sure.
I always feel like when I write stuff like this everyone on this board thinks I'm a whackjob...so I duck waiting for someone to pounce and ask me to quantify. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
The events of the recent past are just the way specific persons decided to treat us. People with greater instincts for compassion and greater dedication to ethics wouldn't have done the same things. People who shared each of our values wouldn't have done them. Call that judgemental and unforgiving if you want. Call it anything you like. It's still true.
But why? Why did WE have those people in our lives, if we are ethical and wouldn't hurt anyone else? That's what I struggled with...the "why was that person in my life"? I am a good person, loving, forgiving so why did I fall in love with a person(make that plural) who could do something so cruel?
For me it was more than once...so why? Just the luck of the draw? Just my bad choices? Or is there more to it? Are we in fact co-creating with spirit to bring us the lessons we need?
Who knows for sure, but I am tired of trying to figure out how to not make such bad choices again, instead I am trying something which makes more sense to me.
I mean it happens more than a couple of times and you have to start looking at why.
Weaver said: How do you know what changes you could make that would change your life? How do you know where you are stuck and what you are doing wrong?
Weaver, I when I was talking about change, and how we often stay in a rut, I was talking about me. That was me I was thinking about, not anyone else here.
I knew my marriage wasn't what it should/could be. I made my W cry sometimes. Later she stopped crying - that's even worse, just for the record. See, she had problems, and I was working on her and her problems. Or thought I was.
Turns out we can't change anyone else, even if we mean well. We can change ourselves, and hope they reflect our changes. If one is already married, and they change and their partner does not............... It can be he11
From what I can see, it usually doesn't happen that way, but it can, and sometiems it does.
So I found MB, and I put a name to what I was doing. AO's, and DJ's. I changed, she changed, but only after my changes.
Someone who is single can change, and it changes who they attract, and hopfully who they accept.
I knew because she, the love of my life was not happy. I knew because there was somethign in the back of my mind that kept telling me things could be a lot better than they were.
God was prompting me, and for a long time I didn't understand what it was.
I began the changes long before I found MB, and I was making progress, but once I got "HNHN:, and "Love busters, habits that destroy romantic love" we made progress by leaps and bounds.
As I said, I could put names to what I was doing wrong, and understand it, and so I could change it.
It can be, and it is different things for different people. Marriage, Job, Problems with friends, Parent child relationships, Is there really a God?
There's a lot more, and I don't have many answers for you, but if there is some unhappiness, there can be change.
There are trade offs. Often a gain here, will be a loss there. Risk vs safety. Ease vs work. Known vs unknown.
It's hard to walk out into the darkness sometimes.
Now, there were reasons for my AO's and DJ's. None of this happens in a vaccume. I needed to forgive. You can't love someone you are always angry with. It's really hard to forgive when you are still on the recieving end of something bad. I wonder if Spacecase would be where he is had HE STAYED WITH HIS WIFE? I wonder if leaving her, and divorcing her opened the door for his healing. Isn't it much easier to forgive someone who used to beat us, rather than someone that beats us daily?
No, I have few answers tonight, but lots of questions.
Weaver, Don't put yourself down for what you say. You are trying hard, and you are a daughter of God. Translated, that's royalty doing their best. You can't get any better than that. Keep trying, just like the rest of us. All of us get some of it wrong, but also some of it right. As has been said, it't a process. What a great gift it if for the rest of us to be able to make this journey with you.
Tonight, I'll spend the evening around a campfire pit in my backyard with my W, and the twins. (Daughters, 12.) We'll tell stories, and eat marshmallows, and have hot chocolate, and cookies. I'll think of all of you. Promise.
Weaver, everybody does not think you're a whackjob.
I do - but I know some people who don't. Haw haw. Only foolin'.
I know exactly what you mean about things repeating themselves. I know someone who has problems in every job he gets. He changes jobs often. He quits, and carries resentments about the experiences. He talks to me about the experiences, often telling the same story over and over.
I'll say to him, "This is the Nth time you've had an experience like this. Don't you think there's a pattern emerging?" He'll explain the unique circumstance of each experience. His explanations are one sided, but they make sense, and he tries to be honest. Still, I get this nagging feeling. I think he's the ultimate cause of these problems, even though his (presumably truthful) descriptions indicate otherwise.
Thank you SS...wow! I hope those in relationships read that...it only takes one to change the dynamics of a relationship, in fact when one changes the R has to change...it's simple physics.
For me I guess I'll fall in behind JJ's trudging...she's trudgin and I'll be plug, plug, plugin along behind. My mom used to say that - "just keep trudgin' along". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Quote
Weaver, everybody does not think you're a whackjob.
I do - but I know some people who don't. Haw haw. Only foolin'.
Yanno Gray, I used to think the same about you...but then I realized I was mirroring. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Oh I don't know but...well there was the time you...
And then there was the the time you said ...
And oh remember that time you...
What do you mean "how so", you are a bit whacky every now and then, and you know it...especially in your late night, had a "beer or two and a shot or three" posts.
That would be GC playing dumb so he doesn't have to see you teasing him, Weaver. Somehow, it reminds me of Curious George, though I can't currently say how or why.
It's been a long few days, with much emotional energy shifting around.
And I've been doing my homework. Writing my Why We Love essay questions. While I was doing that, I came across Pope Benedicts Encyclical on Love, which you can read at the Vatican web site if you're interested.
Some of it is lyrical. Some of the rest is very complex. I haven't even made it halfway through (it's 26 pages long if you download it to a Word document).
Here are a couple of quotes from it.
"[T]here is a certain relationship between love and the Divine: love promises infinity, eternity—a reality far greater and totally other than our everyday existence."
"Eros tends to rise 'in ecstasy' towards the Divine, to lead us beyond ourselves; yet for this very reason it calls for a path of ascent, renunciation, purification and healing."
As love develops, it "now becomes concern and care for the other. No longer is it self-seeking, a sinking in the intoxication of happiness; instead it seeks the good of the beloved: it becomes renunciation and it is ready, and even willing, for sacrifice.
"It is part of love's growth towards higher levels and inward purification that it now seeks to become definitive, and it does so in a twofold sense: both in the sense of exclusivity (this particular person alone) and in the sense of being 'for ever.' Love embraces the whole of existence in each of its dimensions, including the dimension of time. It could hardly be otherwise, since its promise looks towards its definitive goal: love looks to the eternal. Love is indeed 'ecstasy', not in the sense of a moment of intoxication, but rather as a journey, an ongoing exodus out of the closed inward-looking self towards its liberation through self-giving, and thus towards authentic self-discovery and indeed the discovery of God: 'Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it'"
And on that note, I'm going to bed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Good night!
After reading this again, I realized that I need to know how Christians (and the Pope in particular) define renunciation. Hurrah! More research. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Weaver said: "I mean it happens more than a couple of times and you have to start looking at why."
I have this same question. Been thinking a lot about it, in fact.
I have only been with two women in my life. First was GF right out of college. We were steady for two years then decided to M. I found out she was sleeping around shortly after we got engaged and I called it off. A year later she asked to come back. I agreed, but I told her I wanted to take it slow. And a year later I find out she is sleeping around yet again.
Then I met FWW. I waited for four years before determining I could be safe with her. Yet she has done the same thing at least two times now, one being a decade long LTA.
Is it me? Are all women like this? Naw, it must be me. But I can’t for the life of me see it, whatever it is.
Radical forgiveness, huh? I am one of those (usually termed) radical Christians. So here is my take (wether you want it or not).
I get VERY watchful of things like radical forgiveness. These kinds of "movements" tend to gain momemtum with a few examples of success. Sort of "works for me, and there are a few phrases in the Bible that hint about it, IT MUST BE A UNIVERSAL TRUTH FROM GOD!". One must be VERY careful before one says that.
We all react differently in different situations. Some techniques work for us, some do not. Case in point - look at all the techniques for quitting smoking. Why so many if one was truly "sure-fired..."?
You are EXACTLY right about your pain. The Bible does not talk about forgiveness equalling removal of pain. The purpose of forgiveness is to remove bitterness and worry.
If things your ex does bring you pain, it is because what she is doing HURTS. Forgiveness is not the answer there. Forgiveness is for YOU to get on with your life. To not fret over her actions. To not worry what she thinks. To help you divulge the tragedy that beset you.
But it's still gonna hurt. There's still gonna be triggers.
And you are right about that being "good." Pain over a wrong is a sign of compassion. Frankly, I would be worried if I didn't feel the occasional pang of pain.
Forgiveness is to remove stress. Sort of like marijuana, only legal. It is the means to combat obsession over a wrong. It is the stop-gap for righteous indignation.
As far as curing cancer - don't buy it. Except in the sense that the body DOES do less well with disease when it is over-stressed. So in the round-about way of lowering stress, I do buy it.
Radical forgiveness? May work for some, didn't with me, and I have a pretty strong walk.
******, gray, you're an artist. Don't you kinda NEED to explore feelings for art? I mean, where would we be, art-wise, if it weren't for that? (I wouldn't know. I don't do art very well.)
Appy, my initial response was *no* not all women are like that just like not *all* men are cheaters either. sigh...there are lots of faithful men and women on these boards yourself and GC included (as well as NCW,2long, Binder..)
Then I had to stop and think but I cheated and I hate that it will always be a part of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I am so not her anymore. I would never cheat again. LTA? Couldn't do it. How someone can live that life for a decade or more is incomprehensible. I would be exhausted just trying to keep things straight!
I liked what you wrote about pain over a wrong being a sign of compassion, but I think it's also a good indicator of what you value. I think I read something like this somewhere: if you're not sure what your values are, just look at what hurts you. You suffer when your values come under attack.
It was them. But is it possible there's some intersection in their character, some overlap, between what made them attractive to you and what made them disloyal?
Thank you for asking FF. I hope you are doing well too.
I am wonderful, actually. I am reworking the personal improvement part of Plan A. I am getting a life that is not primarily an extension of FWW. Hard to explain, but I lost myself in trying to meet her unmeetable EN's for so many years. And she seems to be improving too. Anyway, my overall outlook is better than I can remember in a long time.
NC is problematic. LTAs are usually so far underground and low intensity and theirs was so work-oriented there was no way to know before. Short of hiring a full time PI for months, I doubt I could know now. To say I have to trust without verification is too simple, though. I have written, signed promises, I have certain contacts, and I have my spouse radar. But if she wants to continue contact I might never know until she makes a mistake again (which is the way I found out both previous times).
GC: “But is it possible there's some intersection in their character, some overlap, between what made them attractive to you and what made them disloyal?”
You can be sure I have pondered this. GF and FWW could not be farther apart (well, except in infidelity, as it turns out). Different looks, different personalities, different religious backgrounds. I consciously looked for someone antipodal after GF. And I took my time. Families were different, schooling was different. Interests were different. GF was outgoing, tons of friends and generally a live wire. FWW was more of a homebody, studious and introspective. GF had many other BF in college. I was FWW’s second BF.
As near as I can tell I went so far in the opposite direction I came back full circle.
Both sought me out, pursued me actually, at first. Maybe there is a clue in that.
As near as I can tell, their characters intersect at the junction of entitlement on steroids and a total lack of personal boundaries. GF never having them in the first place, FWW never needing them until too late.
I am wonderful, actually. I am reworking the personal improvement part of Plan A. I am getting a life that is not primarily an extension of FWW. Hard to explain, but I lost myself in trying to meet her unmeetable EN's for so many years. And she seems to be improving too. Anyway, my overall outlook is better than I can remember in a long time
So do you have a copy of Snarch's Passionate Marriage for this work? Sounds like a nice fit. Do you still feel like her EN's are unmeetable? Entitlement is such a ugly thing isn't? That is what drove me to my A and what I lost when I was humbled in my newly found belief in God.
As for me...hmmm...well the A is essentially over except for a few minutes of phone contact for him to speak to OC. The A phone was returned and OW has a b/f. I am still undecided as to whether I want/can/desire to stay in the marriage. His entitlement, his deceptions and continued lies, his family involvement in continuing and supporting the A and the whole OC issue is a lot to overcome. As of yet he has not shown me anything concrete except for handing me the phone that he wishes to change. So I wait because what is my hurry? I have sent the D financial discovery paperwork in to my atty and will hold off on signing the papers until I decide.
No date this weekend SS except for a date to clean our yard which has been long neglected by my WH.
I think it is partly withdrawl and he does not face things well, he is a conflict avoider. I haven't come up with a timeline yet though I know I should. I am just getting a bit past the trauma of the past couple months. The deception and betrayal were very painful and not just by my WH though he is the one that counts. I have realized some things recently that some would say "duh" to...
1. I am worthy of being loved and protected 2. I am capable of making it without my WH. 3. His A was not about me and the continued deception was not my fault. There was little I could have done to change it. 4. Blood is thicker than water.
The deception and betrayal were very painful and not just by my WH though he is the one that counts.
Blood is thicker than water.
I would guess these two go together.
Don't mean to make you talk about depressing things.
If you want to come by Sat morning, we're taking the twins on a hike in Zion. Some of the trails are wheel chair accessable. Just leave H a note "be sure to get the yard cleaned up." ;-)
If you want to come by Sat morning, we're taking the twins on a hike in Zion. Some of the trails are wheel chair accessable. Just leave H a note "be sure to get the yard cleaned up." ;-)
Sounds truly wonderful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Really accessible trails? Oh wow, I really do need to keep that in mind as a future vacation destination.
Real quick, SS...MIL and OW have become "best friends". OW takes OC to my SIL's to visit and has been introduced to the kids (niece and 2 nephews) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
They could make a movie: Nightmare on ................ street.
But you know - We should worry about you, and how you do from week to week. Knowing you still have bad days, it can be good most of the time if it's not yet I have "Faith" in you. Hehe he.
Real quick, SS...MIL and OW have become "best friends". OW takes OC to my SIL's to visit and has been introduced to the kids (niece and 2 nephews)
Faith this "friendship" will not last, you know that don't you? OW has something in her personality which isn't right, so she is not capable of maintaining a long-term friendship...and as far as the in-laws you are going to have to rise above. Don't let it eat you up, these people are just not worth it, and I'm sorry to say that because I know they they are family to you, but don't allow yourself to become angry and distraught.
You are better than this so don't let yourself get drawn in.
I'm sorry, it seems the horrible stuff just goes on and on in this case.
It was them. But is it possible there's some intersection in their character, some overlap, between what made them attractive to you and what made them disloyal?
I'm like Ap in that both Paige's dad and dan were like night and day. Of course with her dad I think it was a short term aboration of character with his life-style as a popular musician back then...and with Dan well it's a way of life.
Me, I think I was attracted to larger than life guys, who are extremely charismatic...now DW was very quiet, shy and the complete opposite of charismatic and I was crazy about him (my taste changed at least where he was concerned). But he was still dishonest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
The only thing that was consistant is that they all persued me very agressively (like Ap's)...so maybe that is something to take a look at.
I know Weaver, there is something very wrong in her..but MIL took the bait. OW even told me she did this purposely during the pregnancy befriending MIL. She is a vulture in a sweet outer package.
Now that the worst of things seems to be over, I am ok. A couple weeks ago, even a few days ago and I would have answered differently. Way too much pain and trauma.
My ex pursued me also. The guys she dated before me were all passive. I've met them. It's true. The one she replaced me with is the biggest wimp in the universe, from what I hear.
Interesting. My H pursued me until it came time for M and then I had to give him a deadline. He chose to M rather than lose me. He used that as an excuse to both OW's that I "forced" him into marriage. Maybe we should stay away from people that persue us?
Yep, the old "distance and pursuit" theory...they pursue until they "get ya" and then they distance and if they can't take up the pursuit with you again because you don't "distance" then they take it up with someone else?
I just wonder... is this what we need to examine? The pursuit thing?
"Forgiveness is to remove stress. Sort of like marijuana, only legal. It is the means to combat obsession over a wrong. It is the stop-gap for righteous indignation."
I'm not 2uite sure I even get this. Stop-gap for righteous indignation? What the heck does that mean?
I don't disagree that forgiveness removes stress (which can perhaps improve, or at least not contribute 2 the deterioration of physical, and certainly mental, health), but comparing it 2 drug use suggests it's an artificial remedy.
Sort of reminds me of the arguments about whether monogamy is or isn't na2ral. Same kind o' deal, in my view. Sure, testosterone might have me jumping bones on every purdy chick I meet, or at least contemplating it. So, is it na2ral or no that I choose not 2 act?
Is it na2ral or artifical 2 forgive someone for wronging us? Primitive or evolved?
I took the "campfire" thread to be a bit on the artsy side, and that was a little dramatic license.
What I mean by stop-gap for rightgeous indignation is that if you are so indignant at the actions of another, forgiveness can stop that. (Like anger, indignation can be a good thing if CONTROLLED AND HARNASSED).
BTW - 2long, if I have offended you with that analogy to an artificial remedy, well I apologize. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
As to wether or not it is natural? I would guess at this point based on personal, non-statistical information, that forgiveness in learned behavior, counter to our nature.
Well, I'm not really offended. Was more confused than anything, I suppose.
"As to wether or not it is natural? I would guess at this point based on personal, non-statistical information, that forgiveness in learned behavior, counter to our nature."
Ah, here's where things get interesting (or complicated, I suppose). My W's an anthropologist, and they and much of the rest of the science community will tell you that humans (unlike other animals - which opens up another can of worms) don't have instincts, so everything we do must be learned behavior. So, what's in our "na2re" then?
I think the boundaries are gray (and so it's appropriate 2 talk about them on graycloud's thread), and our placement of those boundaries is based more on expedience than reality.
So, it's na2ral 2 be indignant, but it may be as na2ral 2 choose 2 forgive. Either one may make us feel good for a time, but forgiveness has the potential 2 sustain that goodness.
Didn't figure you were (offended). I was being sarcastic because of another issue.
Humans and instinct, huh? Assuming we are ruling out reflexive responses, scientifically I have always been taught that there is nothing in our "nature." Homo sapiens, that is. Spiritually, I am taught we have a sin nature. But it is unclear as to what that means we will do "naturally". One says sin, but to that I ask why don't the heathens commit ALL the sins, if that were the case. So let's drop the spiritual argument.
I did recently see a show about how chimps comitted murder. A behavior that had previously been thought wholly a characteristic of Homo sapiens. (And I'm no anthropologist.) From that, they surmised that there are possibly behaviors that are natural...
I guess the only real way to know would be to allow a population of Homo sapiens to come up WITHOUT the benefit of "nurture." In fact, you would probably need two to see interactions of two groups.
Interesting proposition. "Hey everybody, in the name of science, we need you to hand over your one year olds and we are going to throw them out in the bush and see what happens." Heck. My kids would probably volunteer.
Don't know if we can answer that empirically. (And I may have just used the wrong word.)
I am remined of the remake of War of the Worlds. Which I did not see. But my son said there was a troubling scene where the protagonist was trying to get away in a car and the rest of the crowd were getting pretty nasty trying to take the car. He wanted to know why people were like that.
Mob studies I find fascinating. CLEARLY it is easier to choose to to wrong in a mob than right. Disaster response being the possible exception, where large crowds of people show up to "do right." But still, there are looters in THOSE situations.
I liked what you said about forgiveness being long term. I do think, almost universally, that anything "good" (in the grayest sense of the word) comes with effort.
I do think that the "needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few" is MOST LIKELY learned behavior. Hopefully it is TAUGHT behavior, if you understand the nuance of the difference. Left to our own devices, I would expect us to be pretty selfish and hedonistic. But I have no proof. Other than, personally, I have to CHOOSE to be unselfish. Give me an ice cream, and that is a no brainer. Then ask me for a lick .... well, I gotta think about that one.
And I am right there with you champ. But I would point out that indignation is a feeling, whereas forgiveness is a choice. At least in my world view. And I think feelings are "natural." The impetus of them is probably learned. Case in point, as I travel to other countries, there are things that make people in other cultures blush that don't here. Etc. etc.
This entire discussion really lends itself to a few home brews on a cool evening. Who's with me?
I liked what you said about forgiveness being long term. I do think, almost universally, that anything "good" (in the grayest sense of the word) comes with effort.
You know for me I think it is natural to forgive, unnatural not to, because when I withold my forgiveness (if only in my mind) I feel awful, I feel sick, angry, bitter, ugly and it makes me look at the person whom I perceived as doing me wrong as ugly, sinful, etc...and that hurts. I don't know why but it hurts me to see people in a bad light.
I overcame this when I realized that anything that I ever perceived as being done "to me" was where the misperception occured. They didn't do it to me, even if their actions affected me...they really did it to themselves because all attacks on another are really attacks on oneself.
This is where for me the "and I realized there was nothing to forgive" comes into play...I finally get it. And I am at peace, or coming closer to it then I ever have before.
Thank God! Because this feels so much better then the alternative did.
And you know I think it must be more natural then not, to want to see the good in people as evidenced by NCW's son who was upset at the mob scene in "War of the Worlds" (I hated that movie), because he was clearly upset that people would act that way. He wants to see the good in people, because his ego's defense system is not yet that strongly developed.
This is where the "effort" must come into play for us...to unlearn our egos defense system.
And on that "mob scene" note, my daughters favorite saying "beware of stupid people in large crowds" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Forgiveness regarding the LTA is three dimensional in my case:
1. FWW - I knew early on I would eventually forgive her. I did, fairly rapidly, too. I guess because I love her. I could not see me not forgiving her, actually. Not even if we D’d, which I was sure we were going to. I forgave her in stages, though. Partly because D-Day was such a long, drawn out can of worms and I kept getting lied to over and over for so long. Partly because the betrayal was just too huge and long and all encompassing and we’d already been through this after D-Day 1 for me to digest it all in one sitting. Perhaps I still have some forgiving to do but I think it’s more like keeping my resentment and sadness in check so I don’t backslide.
2. OM – forget is more like it. You know the old saying, “forgive and forget?” I jumped right to the forgetting. Just like the above, though, I am forgetting in stages. So, someone tell me if forgetting is good enough without the forgiving. Gets you to the same place, doesn’t it?
3. Me – I had to accept some forgiveness. From FWW for love busters over the years I didn’t even know I was doing. To this day I do not understand why FWW thought they were LBs, it was so much less than she did, always as a reaction to what she did first, and there weren’t many of them in any case. But she brought them up as big deals early in recovery, and perception is reality after all. So, I had to ask for then accept her forgiving me when I didn’t think I needed it in the least. This was the most difficult of the three, actually.
With prayers,
PS: Re pursuit – I would like to explore this thought further. Maybe next week. I’m heading up to the slopes right now.
. So, someone tell me if forgetting is good enough without the forgiving.
Now everyone might disagree with me here AP, but I don't believe you can forget without forgiving, and I don't believe you can forgive without forgetting. I think the two go hand in hand, but that is just me.
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3. Me – I had to accept some forgiveness. Basically from FWW for love busters over the years I didn’t even know I was doing. To this day I do not understand why FWW thought they were LBs, it was so much less than she did, always as a reaction to she she did first, and there weren’t many of them in any case. But she brought them up as big deals early in recovery, and perception is reality after all. So, I had to accept her forgiving me when I didn’t think I needed it in teh least. This was the most difficult of the three, actually.
This is huge to me Ap, as a LB/DJ is in the eye of the beholder. If she thinks they were LB's then you better believe that to her they were. And I remember when I was in the R with Dan, whenever he would point out my faults and how I was unloving/deceitful my defense(in my own mind and to him) was always...but look what you did????? You lied, you cheated how can you say this to me, I was only reacting to what YOU did, blah, blah, blah. He was right...I was equally as unloving only in a more socially/ethically (?) acceptable way. The point is, I still hurt him.
Remember there are no "degrees" of hurt...only hurt.
Weaver: "If she thinks they were LB's then you better believe that to her they were"
Oh, yes. I get that completely. Now. It took Retrouvaille and MC and a lot of introspection on my part though.
And it helped that FWW eventually put them in perspective. One of the things she understands now is what she dislikes the most in other people is what she dislikes in herself. In other words, what she perceives as LBs (from me or anyone) is in fact what she does in spades herself. Her gain is amped way up in those areas. That was a huge breakthrough, at the time, and helped me understand why I needed to ask her forgiveness no matter what I rationally believed.
Remember there are no "degrees" of hurt...only hurt.
So if I am 5 minutes late for a date, and she has to wait for me, that's the same as me going to some other womens home over night and skipping the date all together?
No difference in the hurt to my W?
I don't agree with there not being degrees of hurt. I think we can equate emotional pain, with physical pain. There is the sliver in the finger, and then there is the kidney stone, or labor and delivery. I can tell you they are not the same.
Some hurt we can get over easily, some we would divorce because of.
I think some of this stuff is written because the writer has an idea, and I don't always think that they are correct.
I don't think I would liken physical pain to emotional pain, because the question of intent is not involved with physical hurt normally, and with emotional hurt there is always that element of intent and the fear of being unloved/unlovable. And even if someone physically hurts us on purpose it is the emotional pain which really hurts us... of not being loved/valued/cherished, not whether they beat us a little or beat us a lot.
Someone can hurt you just as badly with a cruel/uncaring tone of voice as they can by messing around on you. It just depends on what that person perceives as being the thing which makes them feel unloved.
If your being late made your wife feel she was not valued/loved then her emotional pain would probably be the same as if you made her feel unloved/unvalued by cheating on her.
I know when I remember the coldness with which my ex left me... that hurt me just as much as the cheating did. I also know that that emotional pain (inflicted on me by someone I loved and thought loved me) hurt me much more then the person(who I had no emotional ties with and so couldn't make me feel unloved) who attacked me physically (to the point I had blood running out of my ears) did.
When someone tells you you hurt them with your coldness,ignoring ,uninvolvment in your marriage, I don't think there is too much difference then when someone shows the same lack of caring in having an affair. There might be more intense drama, more chaos, more loss but I think the emotional hurt is probably the same.
Of course being cheated on might be a bigger threat to the ego then being ignored, but I am not convinced the hurt is any different.
If you call me a stupid sl*t, or smack me in the head, or ignore me, or cheat on me... what is the difference?...all cause me intense emotional pain because they show me that you don't value me... and underneath that, that I am unlovable.
And as far as the degree's in terms of ethics...when you made marriage vows you not only vowed to forsake all others you also vowed to love, honor and cherish...so what is the difference in degrees of which of these vows you chose to dishonor?...the faithfullness part or the love, honor or cherish... as they are all the same.
SS, I just think people make a big mistake by trying to label the hurt in degrees of which is worse. Hurt is hurt, and if you are convinced that your spouse's cheating is much worse than the lack of caring on your part perceived by your spouse... you cannot move forward, and you cannot except the fault which you need to except in order to forgive.
You get caught up in the "what do you mean I hurt you because I wouldn't take a vacation with you all those years, and I parked my [censored] in front of the computer and buried myself in my work....YOU CHEATED ON ME, and that makes you more guilty, me less guilty and ME MORE HURT!"
That kind of thinking is just a lie we tell ourselves to keep from looking at our own faults and our own guilt. It is not going to help us with our relationship...it will infact destroy our relationship where it might otherwise be salvageable.
I always used to look at degrees of guilt/hurt until I realized that hurt is hurt. I know now that it is just as hurtful of me to hurt your feelings by calling you stupid, as it is for you to lie to me. Even though lieing may seem like it is the more contemptable offense...what difference is the hurt inflicted?
SS, it isn't that you can't measure degrees of hurt associated with particular events if you wish. You certainly can.
But 'hurts' like a WS' infidelity (and perhaps the failure by the BS 2 meet the WS' needs), are long term, festering things that are largely fueled (or not) by our imaginations - our identifying with the hurt. Sort of the worst kind of "mirrored" or "borrowed identity" (from Schnarch, I think).
This is why self-forgiveness needs 2 precede forgiveness of those we feel have wronged us. If we're going 2 carry around emotional baggage, let's make sure there's some clean emotional underwear in there 2 get us on a healthy emotional footing (maybe that should include socks, then).
-ol' 2long P.S. It's Giovanni Schiaparelli's birthday 2day (though some sites say it was the 14th). He's 171 2day.
Hmmmmm…this discussion reminds me of a philosophical dissertation that was on CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) radio one day. The author of the premise put forward that all human life has the value of “one”. That killing….even to save ones own life, is no more justified than murder as “one” is the net loss of the event.
To follow his philosophy it would be no more justified, other than via societal statute, to kill someone that is attempting to kill your child than to kill your child to prevent the occurrence as the loss of “one” is equal.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm……….road apples.
To disregard any of societies traditions, laws, social contracts and rights to self determination to come up with such a premise may be a fun game of mental gymnastics, but it really has no application to anyplace outside of a philosophy class.
Same goes for “hurt”. This is sort of a tree in the forest argument as “hurt” can only be quantified by the recipient of any real or perceived transgression. If my wife is as hurt by my failure to scrape her windshield as my ménage et trios with her girlfriends I guess they are in effect the same regardless of societal taboos, commandments, marriage vows etc.
This smacks of the same rationalization that she used to “even the playing field” when she was spending her weekends as the receptacle for OM’s secretions. That any deviation from the absolute truth on my part…..ever….was the same as her spending the night in a cheap motel room with the OM two days after spending Christmas with their families.
My friend was just ordained as a minister in something called "the church of scientific humanism". The purpose is so she can marry some friends of ours. We're having the ceremony in my friend's house next weekend. I'm playing music.
Last night she showed me the pamphlet they sent her with her certificate of ordination, which she obtained by filling out a form and sending $10 or something.
I told her it sounded like total B.S. When she asked why, I didn't have a good answer. I said there doesn't seem to be any coherent philosophy here. Just a bunch of things that sound nice, a handful of rituals borrowed from various religious practices, and a few relaxation techniques, all of which you're invited to take or leave.
I feel sorry that I was so dismissive of it, and I've apologized to her. But I still think it's bunk. It just seems...
You get what you pay for. When I went to work for a church a couple of years ago, a friend who is a pastor told me of the special tax breaks you get. He urged me to get the "pastor" title, so I could take the break. It sounded like a good idea.
The church I went to work for makes people work for their pastor titles. They learn humility, servanthood, SCRIPTURE, leadership, critical incident stress management (our senior pastors are chaplains for cops and firemen, and support them vigorously) - and much more. Only after a long intership is one considered a pastor.
It is not a frivolous thing to be a pastor. It is a serious commitment - not unlike being a monk in some respects.
I did not become a pastor, and do not get the tax break. I am not quite pastor material.
BTW - the $10 pastor cert. does not get you the tax break, either.
To disregard any of societies traditions, laws, social contracts and rights to self determination to come up with such a premise may be a fun game of mental gymnastics, but it really has no application to anyplace outside of a philosophy class.
In our case, with the discussions which have been going on here, the application may be to examine our thought processess and our perception of our relationships.
I know that for me I need to do this because I am never sure if my perception is being clouded by faulty judgment, and also because I am trying to change my life. So how else could you do that if nothing you thought to be true was ever examined? I want to be happy, at peace and to have good relationships with everyone in my life, and I want to see the beauty in others and in the world.
Since "ideas leave not their source" talking, reading and exploring is the only way I know to change my mind and therefore my life.
But I'll give the subject of forgiveness a rest here, as it is Gray's thread... but for me it's something that I know I'll keep plugging away at, because I think it holds the key somehow.
Hmmmmm…this discussion reminds me of a philosophical dissertation that was on CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) radio one day. The author of the premise put forward that all human life has the value of “one”. That killing….even to save ones own life, is no more justified than murder as “one” is the net loss of the event.
Well, I certainly wouldn't equate the 2.
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To follow his philosophy it would be no more justified, other than via societal statute, to kill someone that is attempting to kill your child than to kill your child to prevent the occurrence as the loss of “one” is equal.
Then don't follow his philosophy.
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Hmmmmmmmmmmm……….road apples.
Stated that way, I agree.
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This smacks of the same rationalization that she used to “even the playing field” when she was spending her weekends as the receptacle for OM’s secretions. That any deviation from the absolute truth on my part…..ever….was the same as her spending the night in a cheap motel room with the OM two days after spending Christmas with their families.
Bovine excrement.
Well, that was certainly colorful. But your depiction here is of your take on her motivations. Can you really know what she was thinking? Do you really care?
None of this crap is easy, because it's personal, but I certainly have learned that if I want 2 feel the hurt, I can certainly replay movies of the injustice over and over again and perpe2ate the hurt. But that makes it hard for me 2 get ANYTHING done.
I believe I still have a long way 2 go before I'm not feeling hurt by events of the past 15 years. And it could certainly be argued that I wasn't hurt "as much" as most people here, yourself included. But I am now certain that, for me, the observation that cheating on one's spouse is worse than murder is no longer true for me. What changed? Only my thinking.
I haven't gotten together with one of my best pals in a while. We've drifted a little. I see him all the time 'cause he's in my band, but we haven't just hung out together recently, and we used to get together almost every weekend.
Late last week I called him. He agreed that it had been a while since we got together. We agreed to hang out over the weekend. We made a plan.
When it was time, his preference was to sit at our friends' house, about five minutes away from where we were planning to have dinner, and watch TV.
I'm sad because I think this friendship is slipping away, and I'm going to let it. Getting the big blow-off made me feel hurt.
But not quite as hurt as I felt over the things my wife did in '04-05.
Oh, I understand the principle of all hurts being equal. But nuh uh.
DW, the guy I dated for three months (that you all know I was absolutely crazy about) has been legally divorced for 6 years and separated 10 years. His wife had an affair, he moved out on DD...they tried to reconcile several times during the separation but he was filled with bitterness and distrust and finally said he just couldn't live like that, so they divorced never recovering the marriage.
I asked him how he handled all of this at the time and he said he was filled with bitterness...very, very bitter for years. That should have been my first clue he was still not ready for a relationship but I was in love and overlooked it.
As we got more involved he got more wierd...anything that went wrong at all brought up terrible triggers for him, until he finally told me he was too damaged to be in a relationship. He had never healed, and had had only two R's before me in all those years lasting less than 4 months each.
I asked him if he had ever found forgiveness, both for himself and for his ex...he didn't have a clue what I was getting at of course.
His story - she cheated...destroyed his life, his finances, his chance to have kids, etc. Still, after 10 years this was his story.
I was madly in love with this guy, and since he had not done the growth work he needed to do before he got into this relationship with me, he broke my heart.
How unfair to me... (and to himself).
We must heal our relationships (even if only in our mind) or we will bring that relationship into every subsequent relationship we have, until it is healed... until WE are healed.
THAT is the point of forgiveness.
(Sorry but I just can't keep my mouth shut I guess.)
Fine (she said, stamping her foot and crossing her arms and looking like a cranky six-year-old), I'll think about being open to forgiving my ex.
Next week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Oh my.
I've been listening to music. I dunno what was on before this. But... this just came on.
Morning has broken, like the first morning Blackbird has spoken, like the first bird Praise for the singing, praise for the morning Praise for them springing fresh from the Word
Sweet the rain's new fall, sunlit from heaven Like the first dew fall, on the first grass Praise for the sweetness of the wet garden Sprung in completeness where His feet pass
Mine is the sunlight, mine is the morning Born of the one light, Eden saw play Praise with elation, praise every morning God's recreation of the new day
Oh.... my.
Something very odd is happening in my world these days. Some things I'm not ready to talk about. Here's one, though, that various folks will like to hear, I think.
You may have read how I occasionally ask the more religious folks to say Hi to God for me, when they're talking to Him. Sometimes people tell me I could say Hi myself. I nod. I could, it's true. God and I have a deal about that, though, I used to say. I'll leave him alone if He leaves me alone. Which was true.
And more recently I would say that I was working on it and God understood. Which was true.
The other night, HoFS was heading for Ash Wednesday services. So I said to him, as I often do, "Tell God I said 'Hi' for me." And as he always does, he said he would.
He didn't suggest that I say hi myself, though I'm sure it crosses his mind from time to time. But I was remembered of when Mortarman suggested it on that thread about religion.
And so I sat back on my couch and I closed my eyes, and I looked around.
"Uhm. [Long pause.] Hi."
Who knew... God has a sense of humor. I'm glad He didn't laugh, though. Instead, it was just a sense of vast (er, infinite?) amusement. Mixed with a great deal of affection and love.
And then God and I sat together for a long time.
Sort of like being cuddled on someone's lap, I guess I'd say.
Me I think of God as a warm light surrounding me...not as a male figure anymore, but growing up I was convinced he was my real father...and I guess he is.
Hi Weaver. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I don't think of God as a male figure most of the time, either. I guess it was the image I needed just then, though.
I've been fielding calls about my ex and finances, and it is a DRAG. Nothing about me either. My part is done, my money is where it's gonna be, end of story. The reasons I get these calls are all to do with her. To explain would be boring and take forever. It's just a downer.
I haven't played fingerstyle in a while and I have to learn something for this wedding next weekend (in four days, I mean) and I'm trying to make a new callus on my thumb without getting a blister and it's TORTURE! This gets any worse and I'm getting out the Super Glue.
Me I think of God as a warm light surrounding me...not as a male figure anymore, but growing up I was convinced he was my real father...and I guess he is.
I think we need 2 settle this once and for all. Anybody wanna help me 2rn God over?
In the old one she's mean and dismissive, and I'm frustrated and furious.
In the new one she starts out snotty and confrontational, but quickly grows regretful and cries miserably. She is vivid. I'm surprised by how perfectly I remember her. Seeing her so forlorn breaks my heart. I wake up feeling nothing but compassion for her. Suddenly awake and very alert, I am cool and I am weightless. I'm empty of all the bad feelings. At least for a while, they don't exist. Whether she's sad and miserable in real life is irrelevant. I don't care about what I've endured. All that matters is wishing for her not to be in pain. I'm simultaneously full of compassion for her and unaffected by whether or not she needs it. This feeling of indifferent generosity is very, very peculiar.
Sounds very healthy to me. I no longer have bad feelings for my WH. I could say hurtful things to him, but have no desire to. I think it is part of a good recovery.
Have a good time, SS. Send pictures when you get back! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
GC, I'm not surprised that you're hitting this point. I got there about a year ago when my ex married her new husband, and after the last of our financial ties were severed. (I think I'll call him her new husband forever...) It's a good place to be in all, in all.
Ummm, okay so a few days ago I posted about playing at my friends' wedding today, and how I was having trouble with the fingers of my right hand, which aren't calloused well for finger picking, 'cause I don't play that way a whole lot.
Well, I know the tune and I'm unlikely to screw up. Except for one thing. Every time I play the song I'm in total pain from start to finish. If I coat the fingers with Super Glue, it wears off before I'm halfway through the song. This situation makes it much harder to play the song well.
But really the problem is purely mental.
I'm using this thread to make a promise. I'm not going to tell anyone what's up, and I'm not going to make any excuse for playing badly, and I'm going to ignore the pain and play like a pro.
GC, play your heart out. "Played it till my fingers bled..."
FF, I like that site. But, as I always do with such things, I clicked on the people link. And I looked at the list of names. For those that I can tell, it looks like there are perhaps half a dozen women involved. Most of those are in business or financial or contracting positions. I think there were two, of that very long list, who were in technical jobs.
This is my life Its not what it was before All these feelings I’ve shared And these are my dreams That I’d never lived before Somebody shake me Cause I, I must be sleeping
(chorus) Now that we're here, It's so far away All the struggle we thought was in vain All the mistakes, One life contained They all finally start to go away Now that we're here its so far away And I feel like I can face the day I can forgive and I’m not ashamed to be the person that I am today
These are my words That I’ve never said before I think I’m doing ok And this is the smile That I’ve never shown before
Somebody shake me Cause I, I must be sleeping
(chorus)
I'm so afraid of waking Please don't shake me Afraid of waking Please don't shake me
Oh heck, it went fine. Except my friend who was rev'rending the wedding jumped the gun during a pause in the tune and started yapping. But it was okay, it's exactly what I expected her to do.
We had a heap of fun. Very late, before we all fell asleep on our bits of floor and couch, we listened to "When the Levee Breaks" i.e. Best Rock Song Ever. Sparrow and I used to come home after going out and listen to it while we brushed our teeth. We'd stand in front of the mirror nodding our heads to that impossible beat trying not to laugh and spray toothpaste at each other.
Tonight I rang the girl I've been hanging around with. Lately I've been distant with her. We talked a while, then we were about to hang up, then she put me on the spot. While garlic and onions howled in a pan in front of me, she said, "So do you still want to hang around with me?" I don't even remember what I said. I just wanted out of there. Then she said, "It's okay if you don't," to which I replied, "No it's not!" Anyway, we agreed to worry about it later and hung up.
Shoot, I was making some good food. If it was someone I really wanted to be with I'd have said getchyer butt over to my house for some din-din and who cares if it's late Monday night."
Oh well. I'm a lucky feller. I'm going to make this girl my friend and she's going to make it easy. Wish I had some other prospects, but I do not.
SS, I know you are on vacation but wanted you to read this when you return... I had a lunch date yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It was his idea too.
Hi Weaver, I see you posting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
FF - Doing well. I keep thinking I am burning out the last embers of love, but then a conversation occurs, or some good time spent together and a small deposit is made. Then there is more left to burn out - and an event occurs that does, but then we get some rest, and it starts over again.
Pretty OK, though. I remain stable - I think - and that is good.
Weaver, I have a special dislike for Dave Matthews. It's deep and abiding. It will take some doing to overcome it and listen to his music ever again voluntarily. I will try to do it.
This past weekend I friended the person I was involved with. It was harder than expected/easier than feared. I also went out with car4love. We always have fun. I believe she's taking lots of crap still, but she doesn't tell me, even when I ask. Noble girl.
Weaver, I have a special dislike for Dave Matthews. It's deep and abiding. It will take some doing to overcome it and listen to his music ever again voluntarily. I will try to do it.
What did he do? I'm going to kick his butt instead...the [email]b@stard![/email] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Too bad you and car4love don't fall in love. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Yes, you could be right Ap. I guess I didn't really think of it that way. They are good friends though, and from what I read that is a good way to start a R, that's what I was thinking about.
AD, I reckon falling in love will only happen if you bring about the occasions for it. You might not be able to make it happen, but you can definitely make it not happen.
But don't listen to me. If I was so smart I wouldn't be alone right now.
Oh AD, I just love metaphysics! And so speaking, you must first be open to it, and then when the right person comes along you make a split second decision to fall in love with that particular person, and then...whammo you're screwed (because after this point I think it takes on a life of it's own), in other words "love has come to town" .
And hopefully it is reciprocated because -
You can't make someone love you back, you can only stalk them, hoping they panic and give in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> whomever they may be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I was in your neck of the woods weekend before last...stayed in an old lighthouse which had been made into a house (on Lake Michigan), walked way out on the breakers and everything (just like it was spring). Even went to TC to see "Grease" on ice...it was fun!
PS: It's just the inbetween time for Gray...'twont be long now, I'm thinking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Been odd, in a comfy sorta way. Had dinner and a LONG convo with Spacecase last week while I was in Huce Ton. He is such a good friend.
I must admit still being puzzled over some of the things he's been able 2 achieve spiri2ally and relationship2ally. I think I understand them intellec2ally, but internalizing them is still a bit downrange for me.
But I do know he's right about forgiveness. I see that in his '2de!
gc, sorry about the digression.
-ol' 2lurk P.S. Spirit's in a tough position, but it's still got 5 good wheels! We need 2 tilt north for the winter, though. Only 100 meters 2 go 2 a north-facing slope, and we're not sure we'll have the power 2 get there...
Oh I agree with Kimmy...yucky, they should wait until you are out of the house.
He is a troll Jelly...I prefer cheeseheads, but they are not good for me, they keep breaking my heart.
That is really nice about Space 2long...I am thinking this guy I am starting to date is not spiritual enough for me. I really want to have that in my life now and think it would be so much easier to achieve if your partner is heading down the same path...or atleast seeking it.
Yeah, lots. Yesterday was evil 'cause a kid, maybe 14 or 15, was in the lane next to me. He obviously was trying to race me, starting when I started, resting when I rested. After a while I said,
"Haaah, haaah, haaah, I'm gettin' tired buddy, I think you'll get me on this next one."
"Haaaah, haaah, haaah, yeah, maybe," he said.
But getting raced by this kid made me push it, and I was DYING when I finally got out of the water. At least my pride was intact. Little s**t never did catch me.
If I'da known the queen was reading I would've described the racket some.
Um, still not too late for that, I'm all ears. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, come on, I need to know where the heck this guy is from. You have to tell me, really you have to, or I will make fun of your wanna be Island, oh wait I all ready do that, you just have to, give us something.
Oh thanks Kimmy, if I decide to take this any further than just casual, I'll take you up on it.
And GC, I am sorry but DMB's version of "Jimi Thing" is blowing my mind now... if I were a guy it'd give me a you know what. LOL I listen to it and I am transported...I'm in heaven.
I used to think with all we had learned about EN's and LB's the dating world was going to be in big trouble with the new found availability of us MB students...NOT! It's still a jungle out there.
There once was a poster called Graycloud Of his thread he was terribly proud The chicks on MB Think he's incredibly hunky He's always attracting a crowd
I'm here! Sorta. I'm pretty busy. Let's see, what to say, what to say? Oh, okay, just the major stuff.
- A stoplight nearly fell on my car last week. It was weird and scared me and DD half to death. No damage to us or anyone else, though. And afterwards there were the stoplights, sitting in the middle of the road, still working.... and people were still obeying them, even as they went around.
- DD stuffed kleenex up her nose so far that it could not be removed. After much trying on my part, the doctor removed it the next morning with no great difficulty. DD's explanation was, "My nose was runny and I wanted to be like [next-door neighbor]!" Next door neighbor recently had cotton packed into her nose because of a hard-to-stop nosebleed. *sigh* If I'm getting this at three, what am I going to get at 13?
- Went to OH for the weekend to give HoFS a hand -- literally. He had carpal tunnel surgery on Monday and we did all the household things that he couldn't do. You know, stuff like opening the milk bottle, turning a can opener, and driving.
- HoFS had carpal tunnel surgery (the first of two) on Monday. He's dealing with the incision pain now, but got his first solid night of sleep in more than a month in spite of that. He had been waking up in agony every two or three hours.
- HoFS and I will be in Wisconsin the first weekend of April, over near the TC for a party that Cerri's having. Anyone going to be around? I'd love to see folks, if we can find a good time. (Send me e-mail if you want to get together, puhlease!)
- My work is topsy-turvy at the moment, with lots of people at the client site where I spend most of my time leaving. It's an interesting ride.
- I'm still in love. I have these weekends with HoFS where I lose track of everything but the sunshine in his eyes. It's good.
- My ex and I are in negotiations for various updates. Child support, visitation schedule, college fund, and discussions about DD's donor, whether he has any parental rights (all the attorneys I talk to say yes), and what that means for DD and us. Progress is slow, but there -is- progress.
I think that's it. And HoFS is on the phone, so I'm going to chat with him.
- HoFS and I will be in Wisconsin the first weekend of April, over near the TC for a party that Cerri's having. Anyone going to be around? I'd love to see folks, if we can find a good time. (Send me e-mail if you want to get together, puhlease!)
J, it's out of the question for me, maybe the next one. I'd sure love to be able to make one of them, sometime.
That carpel tunnel is nasty stuff eh?
Good luck with everything re: DD.
As for Kimmy, jelly & Faith - I have decided to give a certain person from WI a try as well...my mom always said "date around, don't sleep around", so I am going to take her advice (not that I ever slept around) and try to date casually more than one person at a time. I mean guys do it all the time, so why can't I?
Awaiting his date - we see Binder Drinking a beer with his grinder What if it's not Thursday? But perhaps some other's day? will somebody help Binder find her?
lmao - Binder, that's funny, best luck to you on your date.
Luck to you as well on ALL your dates Weaver. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Stop grouping the Cheeseheads in some sort of special category, that could be a mistake. They aren't some special breed you know. Cept maybe Brett Favre and GC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
If the suggestion is that you should immediately divorce your partner, well yeah, there is indeed a good argument for it. And it's your right. It is not unethical to walk away. I doubt anybody here, even the biggest kool-aid drinker of them all, would require that you stay if you don't want to, or if you think that the marriage cannot overcome this crisis.
What constitutes a kool-aid drinker? I don't understand the reference...
Jim Jones is the only thing I think of when Koolaid and drinking are together....then again the word DON'T is usually flashing in my head at the same time.
Gray, The post you did on rivertam's thread is one of the most beautiful, and to the point posts that I have ever read.
Faithful, I'm glad you had the date. That he asked is good. May he keep it up. May you let him prove himself, not just take him back without great effort on his part.
Binder, Have a good evening, and we want a debriefing when you get home.
There was once a young lad named NC Into whose bonnet was put a large bee To write limricks for fun when for long he had none But the good ones we're waiting to see.
J, Do you feel like you are in limbo, or making progress? Remember, I'm asking what you FEEL.
Kimmy, it must be good, you are so OPEN, and LIGHT again.
Weaver, You need somebody to love. May you find him soon. I know you can do fine on your own, but dreams are so nice when they come true.
Hi 2long, the shoe tree is cool. I saw it on a glance, and had to turn around and take a photo of it. W missed it on the first pass anyway, and I wanted her to see it.
It's a nice time of the year for vacations, and for love.
2long's often asked for an update on the state of his marriage's fate though things don't happen fast I can comment at last Recently we had us a hot date!
We drove through central CA, and I notice that a lot of it is wine country. This is about halfway between SanFrancisco, and Ft Bragg CA. http://www.outdooroutlet.com/SS/03-06/1.jpg
Some places there was lots of snow - this is near Mt Shasta, but the snow was wide spread. We drove through it for about 200 miles this day. http://www.outdooroutlet.com/SS/03-06/6.jpg
This is the shoe tree on Hwy 50 in Nevada. (The loneliest highway in america.) Not sure how it got started, but I couldn't drive past without taking this photo. People just throw the shoes up into the tree, and there they are. http://www.outdooroutlet.com/SS/03-06/7.jpg
I highly recommend long trips with your spouse. (meaning many days, not distance.) It takes the first two or three days to unwind and get used to not being on deadline.
GC: I'm glad you'll be there. Hope there'll be a few others I've met before. I'll be the one with the glow and the cute guy nearby.
2Long: I'm one of the many in the crowd who went wild.
SS: Welcome back! Lovely pictures, including the one of you and Mrs. SS. I hope to meet you both one day. I feel far from limbo. I'm going places. Can't always see the destination, but I can feel it -- and it's moving faster than it seems to be.
In Detroit throwing a pair of shoes over a tree branch or a telephone line is a signal that a gang killing has been carried out. (sorry for this new image)
Everyone at the campfire is doing so good lately, how nice!
Wait a minute - I'm not bossy, I just like to passionately tell people what to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
I just went to Boyne Mountain, on our way through a little town, there is a shoe tree. Story goes, once you graduate from HS you toss your shoes up in the tree on your way out of town.
Much nicer story than the Detroit one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Did you hear about that Kid Rock concert at Boyne Mountain last summer jelly?
My girlfriend's daughter went and she said she actually feared for her life. They had close to front row and she said they were mobbed so bad that if she had fallen she would have lost her life...and the fights were unbelievable, I guess one girl lost an eye and part of her face.
That scares me about Kid Rock...he should have stopped the concert.
I'll never go see him now and doubt I'll ever let my daughter go to a concert. Times have changed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
When my D was 16, I 2k her and her friend 2 the last Oingo Boingo concert. It was a great concert, outdoors at Irvine Meadows (formerly Orange County International Raceway, home of the Bonnie and Clyde antique race car invitational... ...but I digress). But there were kids puking in the planters behind the outhouses, and a bit more carring on going on than I wanted her 2 be subjected 2.
She 2rned out a lot better than I can take any credit for, though.
My first concert was Van Hagar. I was 15. Somehow, I will never know how, I convinced my parents to let me camp out for tickets. Those were the good days before the evil empires known as "Ticketmaster" and "The Eagles" and "cell phones" ruined arena rock. At the campout, there were fights and substances, but everyone I crossed paths with was nice to me.
Dumb band to see, but hey, I was 15. What do you want?
I'm going to hoist one for Schluter tonight. Don't know what else to say.
I guess it depends on who you are seeing, and whether security has lost control or not. I left a ZZ Top concert last summer (only went because it was outdoors and a very nice day), because security had no control and I started getting a bad feeling so we left...I'm too old for nonsense now.
and as my little girl always says -
"beware of stupid people in large crowds"
My first concert was "Three Dog Night", and my parents took us (Salt Lake City), I was 12 and it was a blast. I don't remember noticing any drunks/druggies/fighting or anything like that.
Lollapalooza was one of my favorites too, though I missed the first with Jane's Addiction, which would have been way cool.
My absolute best concert was a band that none of you probably know.
Worst? I saw Elliot Smith once and he was not very good. I have a friend who saw Natalie Merchant once, and she and her band tried to play "Honky Tonk Women" and they didn't know it and couldn't fake it, and she laughed and laughed at how adorable they were. My friend is still angry about it, years later, and I don't blame him.
I understand the keggers, that's what we have in our neck of the woods.
Concerts, gosh I'm kind of embarassed, George Jones is one of my favorites. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Bad things never happen at the concerts I go to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
At Lollapalooza II the crowd was so desperate to mosh that you felt the crush when Ministry's guitar tech came out to tune up. I remember that mosh pit being about the size of a football field. When they did "Jesus Built My Hot Rod" it was like the Apocalypse.
At Lollapalooza II the crowd was so desperate to mosh that you felt the crush when Ministry's guitar tech came out to tune up. I remember that mosh pit being about the size of a football field. When they did "Jesus Built My Hot Rod" it was like the Apocalypse.
Hey Weaver! My first concert was Three Dog Night too! Back when the Universal Amphitheatre here was an outdoor venue. I was about 11 or 12. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Worst concert..B'52s cuz the crowd was NUTZ. Best concert Simon and Garfunkle reunion tour. Or hmmm...Doobie Bros reunion at the Hollywood Bowl which is a totally cool venue
Tipping one for Schluter? Oh no... I hope I'm not interpreting gloom where it's not here.
I'm amazed that I'm still reeling in many ways over my friend's recent suicide. This Monday, I gave his widow some cash for his telescope and a lathe he used. I didn't sleep well the next 2 nights.
But it's clear and comfy out 2day, and I'm going 2 get that scope out and wish on a few million stars and DSOs in his name.
I've been 2 a few live concerts in my time, though I don't generally like them - 2noisy and smokey.
Moody Blues about 3 times in the early 70's. Then again when they played with the orchestra (also at Irvine Meadows) about 10 or 15 years ago (by far the best live concert, rock or classical, that I've ever, ever seen). Then again at The Greek about 6 or 7 years ago (awful, due 2 some constant yackers sitting right behind us).
King Crimson in 1974. Bought regular tickets and wound up in the 10th row center. Fairport Convention opened for them, and it was a toss which band did the best performance. Very memorable.
The Who around 1972. Noisy and smokey. I had a "date" go with me, only she was my date when I bought the tickets but dumped me before the concert. I sucked up my broken spirit and offered 2 take her anyway. We were with about a dozen other people, so it 2rned out well. Most everybody was stoned out of their minds by the time we left. They did an amazing performance of "Magic Bus" and smashed their guitars in2 kindling at the end of the concert.
The Oingo Boingo concert about 11 or 12 years ago. Even then, the keyboardist was using a Mac Plus for his midi. I would've thought it was 2 archaic, but I had one up until the fire 4,5 years ago that booted a lot faster than my newer machines - very little overhead in the operating system in those days 2 slow them down, I guess.
Last concert I went 2 was Peter Gabriel at the Staples Center. W and kids went 2. All I can say is that I hope I'm half as spritely when I get his age as he was then. The music was awesome, 2.
2Long - Suicide is only hard on those left behind.
I don't know Kimmy, over the years especially this last one I have come to realize that things are never quite so black and white.
With my dad's suicide (facing a debilitating/painful cancer, the recent loss of my mother and his inability to conquer his alcoholism) I think it was hard on him to make the decision, but obviously crippled with pain both emotional and physical he saw no other way and felt it was the best for all concerned.
Similar to 2long's friend in some aspects, but minus the alcoholism.
Who knows though. Sure is sad anyway.
I used to get so angry at suicides, but now everything has changed in my thinking I guess.
I will forever remember the kind and amusing things my friend did for all his friends. I heard this story from a friend at the memorial service last weekend.
This other friend is in2 Model A Fords. Some years ago, he was working on it on a Sa2rday when my friend dropped by for a visit. He asked what he was doing, and the OF told him he needed 2 dismantle the leaf spring, but didn't have a spring spreader (and folks, *I* dismantled mine when I was 19, using a bunch of big C-clamps, and though I had no problems, I look back on that as one of the dumbest, most dangerous things I did as a teenager). MF asked him what that was, and he showed him a pic2re from a Model A Service bulletin. 4 days later MF showed up again with a spring spreader he'd made in his garage from memory of the picture, complete with the OF's initials welded in2 it.
I've never been to a memorable concert, aside from the first one with my parents, oh and of course Donny Osmond when I was 13.
Well, was quite taken with John Cougar preceded by John Fogarty, but still I can't say it was really memorable...except it was out-doors, we had front row, it was the fourth and there were fireworks in the sky above us, also a beautiful sunny day with the strangest light bouts of rain.
I'd give my eye teeth to see Jethro Tull in concert though.
2Long - I used to get so angry at suicides, but now everything has changed in my thinking I guess.
There is a part of me that is stuck at 11 years old that will never grow up. Part of her still feels responsible for a grown up's decision to take his own life....because the grown up that she became can see the signs that were there pointing to his demise. Try 'splaining it to the 11 year old, tho...try telling her it's not her fault.
Logically, I understand....but the me that I was will never stop hurting and hasn't yet given up the anger at what she perceives to have been a huge responsibility foisted on her...a responsibility that she failed miserably in.
To me, it's the worst thing you can do to your loved ones...
I can't go in2 much detail here, but I believe that - taken as a whole - my friend was about as selfless with his choice as he was likely able 2 be in the condition and state of mind he was in.
I'm sure some will agonize over whether they could have said or done something differently such that he'd still be here. I know I did, and I haven't seen him myself more than a couple dozen times in the past year (he'd retired 5 years ago, but was working part time up until a year or so ago).
I sure wish I could see him again and spend time swapping stories with him, but the truth is that he wasn't likely 2 be around much longer, and the quality of his life (and his finances) would have deteriorated rapidly with time. And the fact is that he's gone now.
So here I am with a late night post. But this is no half-drunk griping.
I did some work on the house, and planned to do some music. But long story short, my house smelled like VOCs and I needed to get out. I'd been invited somewhere, so I went.
Yadda yadda yadda...
I wound up with a group of people, one of whom I knew, based on a prior conversation with a friend of his, was an OM. I didn't know any of the details. I barely know him. But he's a musician, and he started talking to me about that. I asked him about his band situation. He said it was complicated.
I was not baiting him. Actually I thought his affair was unrelated to the music. I had the impression it was outside all that.
Sorry weaver.
So he said his band situation was complicated, and so I asked him to give me the 30-second version. He bellyached about how hard that was, and I waited. Finally he explained, and included the fact that one of the other musicians in his band is a woman, and she's divorcing her husband to be with him.
As the inside of my body reached a nice rolling boil, I exhaled and looked at him and tried my best to look calm and not like I wanted to KILL him. I'm telling you, my pulse was 170.
I think I was successful. Maybe he thought that as a groovy creative musician-type I might be understanding (he was right).
He asked, "What do you think?"
I tried not to stop breathing. Here was a guy, admitting to me that he is the OM, asking for my opinion.
I said, "What I think is that this is one of the most unethical and destructive things a man can do in his life. You've made a terrible choice."
I said that. And he did not run away. We talked for quite a while. Now, I do not fancy myself a great giver of advice. There are many here, for instance, who have abilities that exceed mine. That's no fake humility. It's a fact.
I reminded myself early on that if this affair was a romance, there was nothing I could say that would convince OM to change what he was doing. All I could do, I figured, was plant seeds.
I can tell you, having a conversation with an OM is a peculiar experience. To hear these worn-out phrases coming out of a person five feet away is... peculiar.
I'm glad. There was only that early moment when I saw red. After that, I felt sad for him. He's obviously in conflict.
I'm sure I said some things that went too far. I didn't bat 1000. But I showed him real compassion. I didn't patronize him or lecture him, but I spoke honestly.
I might have been overconfident, and too sure of myself.
Somewhere towards the end, he said, "I guess we'll agree to disagree."
That's one of the lamest things you can say when you're in a disagreement, if you ask me.
I said, "No, I'm right, and you're wrong, and you know it, and someday you'll realize that you actually agree with me."
I wanted to offer him more. I wanted to tell him, if he ever needs someone to talk to, I offer him my friendship. But he went out to smoke, and he never came back.
Tomorrow I'm having dinner with his friend who is also my friend, and I guess I'll give her the message that he should feel like he can reach out if he needs to. Though I doubt that would ever happen.
I didn't save anyone, but I did my best, and I was kind to the OM. I told him things that were very judgemental and confrontational, and I did it without being nasty, and I didn't intimidate him or scare him away.
I don't think a golden tongue can do much in a situation like this. You can tell someone what you think, and try to be kind. You can count yourself among those who say that this is a cruel and destructive act. You can possibly give him something that may help when the whole thing begins to fall apart. But to cast a brilliant spell that will end everyone's suffering right now... That would be a special skill, and I don't have it.
I wish, but not a chance.
And so instead of feeling proud or doubtful... I gave a nice girl a ride home, and now I just feel sentimental.
Time it was And what a time it was It was A time of innocence A time of confidences Long ago it must be I have a photograph Preserve your memories They're all that's left you
Weaver - I was a big Donny Osmond fan too. My first concert I went to was Fleetwood Mac, Wembley Arena circa 1978. But the best, and I mean big best was Dire Straits, Wembley, sometime around 1984.
After the concert, my friend and I who both were crazy about them, stayed behind to try and get their autographs. We waited and waited until about almost midnight. Mark Knopfler drove out with his wife, then in the next car was John Ilsley. Then some guys who were light technicians challenged us. They said if we could get to Abbey Road studios on public transport before they got there (they had to go and change at their hotels first), they would get us into the End of Tour Party being held there. Cut a long story short, we got in. I met them all, got a signed album cover, drank champagne (I was wearing a tracksuit!). They knew we weren't meant to be there but nobody cared. One of the best nights of my life. And yesterday on the radio they played Sultans of Swing and made my day. TT
GC, I truly admire what you did. Most of society would not step up and say the right thing. Effective or not does not matter..I suspect that in the future your words will ring in his ears.
I love Dire Straits TT. An electrician at work just made me a CD of theirs. I don't know why he picked Dire Straits but I really like it.
We all make CD's for each other at work...I guess it's our way of "showing the love" to each other. We used to make food to bring, but everyone really starting packing on the pounds. LOL
Gray, I do the same thing now, had to give my assistant a lecture about an on-line friend she has...she didn't like it too much. Oh well. We have a responsibility to share what we have learned, but some people need to learn by the school of their own hard knocks, not ours.
Somewhere in the back of his head it hit home though...and it will grow. He won't trust her regardless, she who left her own husband for another man, nor she him.
oooh, Dire Straits is in my top five. Bands, not ens. Well, maybe in ens too. Another is CCR. I have just about everything both groups have ever recorded. I still have an old 8-track of CCR I can't bring myself to throw out.
GC, you did a lot better than I would have. I would have had to move away before I decked him or something. (Reminds me of Alice's Restaurant...)
How good is happiness at someone else's expense? What does that buy a person?
Notice that Binder has been really quiet since his date. After all his talk about YOU Gray. Makes one wonder.
Weaver, we do expect a full report. And I'm 50 and not afraid to say it. 4 grand kids too - all cute. They don't get that from me.
Faithful, we did a date last night to a new place. It was our 2nd choice,(the first one had long lines) and I didn't know it was so upscale. Booth with sheer curtains. Private, with really good service, and really good food. Expensive though - oh well, she's worth it. After we went to a furniture store and looked at kitchen chairs. No decisions yet, but it was fun.
How about you?
2long, are you going to tell us about your hot date, or just bait us?
J, have fun. I'm still praying for you right along.
This thread is all over the map lately……It’s actually been a lot of fun catching up.
GC, I must agree with SS on your post to Rivertam, probably the greatest display of your eloquence. You were firing on all cylinders that day.
It sounds like you took used the right tact on this OM too. A difficult situation to be sure and one that requires some finesse to keep the infidel engaged while still conveying your disapproval. Apparently you may have the opportunity to continue the lesson.
One of my friends at work had to fly off to the coast this week to keep his mother from completely losing her sanity. A year or so ago his father, after about 40 years of marriage, decided to call it quits. I’m well aware that the vast majority (I’ve heard 90% quoted somewhere) of long term marriages and those with children that end in divorce have infidelity issues. I raised that possibility to him when this started, but he was reluctant to consider that scenario. Eventually the truth came to light regarding the relationship between his dad and the wife of one of their close friends. It’s a small town and dad is a high ranking bureaucrat. The subsequent explosion was classic affair 101 stuff that we read on these pages everyday. They are divorcing. This week was the final dismantling of the household chattels and his mother is having a complete meltdown. He is the sibling that is most able to fly off to help his mother get through this.
Before all of you think what a great guy he is, he too left his wife to chase some hairspray honey around several years back. I talk to him about that sometimes…again classic affair stuff. Left wife, moved into building where OW lives 2 years later trying to get back with wife, they ended up divorced.
Oh yeah…my “date”. This girl is the sister in law of a chap I work with. He was telling me that she wanted to meet a nice guy (insert joke here) and suggested me to her. He took one of my cards and passed it along to her and she fired off an email to me. As I’ve never met her she ended up sending me a photo of herself too.
I responded by sender her THIS PHOTO of myself. I didn't hear back from her for a while.... She did her research and was relieved that I was pulling her leg. We met for a drink at a nice lounge by her condo. She’s a petit 35 year old, no children, never married, though she lived with a man for about 7 years. Very down to earth lady, completely comfortable in her own skin and no sense of guile that I could perceive.
My friend at work said she can be rather shy at first and it was a tad awkward as we had never met before and she seemed nervous. She really made an effort to keep the conversation going though and was quite lovely about the whole situation. We had a cup of tea back at her condo and parted ways.
I’m not “smitten”, but I’ve suggested to her since that we go for a bite after work one of these days. Her office is about a block from mine so we can have dinner sometime and catch an early show.
I’m not about to get drawn into an exclusive relationship right now. I’m not close to trusting my judgment with women right now and I want to be exposed (OK, minds out of the gutter) to a number of women. I seem to have a bunch of friends and aquaintences that have "just the right girl" for me too.
BTY way SS, great pics. You seem to have a knack for that. I'm jealous of some of the warm weather settings. We went sledding here today. Still a foot of snow on the ground.
Binder, I could just knock you silly for that picture! My daughter was sitting with me at the computer when I pulled it up.
I am laughing so hard I can't stand it...but she just keeps saying "OMG Mom, is that one of your "guys"..is it mom? OMG, OMG, OMG...why do you show me that? It's sick, is it one of your guys mom, OMG".
Have more to say but need to go shut her up now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Billy's leaving today (don't know where he's going). Holds his head in disgrace (he can't escape the truth). He knows the price that he's paid. He admits that it's too late to admit that he's afraid. Tomorrow comes. Sorrow becomes his soul mate. The damage is done. The prodigal son is too late. Old doors are closed but he's always open, To relive time in his mind. Oh Billy.
Billy's leaving today (don't know where he's going). He's got lines on his face (they tell the story of his pain). He accepts it's his fate. He admits it took too long to admit that he was wrong. Tomorrow comes. Sorrow becomes his soul mate. The damage is done. The prodigal son is too late. Old doors are closed but he's always open, To relive time in his mind. Oh Billy.
Once he was a lover sleeping with another. Now he's just known as a cheat. And he wish he'd had a mirror; looked a little clearer. Seen into the eyes of the weak. Tomorrow comes. Sorrow becomes his soul mate. The damage is done. The prodigal son is too late. Old doors are closed but he's always open, To relive time in his mind. Oh Billy.
Aph - Just got warm squidgy feelings for you. CCR is def. a top need for me...when I was in 3rd grade, my parents bought me their greatest hits (recorded by K-tel - remember K-tel?)....
Now, I'm going to be singing all day...
My office mates thank you from the bottoms of their little hearts!
Once he was a lover sleeping with another. Now he's just known as a cheat. And he wish he'd had a mirror; looked a little clearer. Seen into the eyes of the weak.
Powerful!
GC, another opportunity.. I think your are way cool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
2long, as long as there is progress.. Are you happy?
SS, love the sound of the place. Hope you told your W she is worth it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Reasonably so, I must admit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I've noticed a possibly fundamental mental shift (that's funda x (mental)*2) recently, all without either of us speaking a word.
Far, far less squirming in our respective seats when stuff is said on the news like this morning "Infidelity is not thought 2 be a factor in the preacher's murder". There was another one like that recently, which was the first time, and we even talked about it as in how it relates 2 our own recent experiences, but I don't remember what the story was about.
I'm a bit apprehensive still, but happy for the most part.
Binder - I was trying to tease you when I mentioned your date - mostly. I see you are pretty good at reading people. Is that partly a result of time spent here, or were you good at it before?
You usually say little about your feelings. I hope last week was not really hard on you. I realize it could have been a rough time.
Graycloud, It feels like your life is turning to spring. The buds are out, I hope we don't get a cold snap.
SS, my DD is doing great! Her grades have gone up and her whining has gone down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> DS has been much happier too. I guess everyone needed their dad to committ.
To them, it's the whole world - both of you together. They get cues from you, and you must be doing much beter.
Got your vacation plans together yet for this summer? I think recovery demands a vacation. Not to mention DD, and DS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Tomorrow is my bday and my H is taking the morning off to spend with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Initially I had hoped for the whole day but I have to call in for a conference call and he has this hang up about not missing work...so we compromised. Actually works well for me cuz I get some much needed time alone in the afternoon. hmmm..maybe shopping or a bubble bath..
Concerts. Best concerts. Worst concerts. Hmmm. Okay, I'm just going to do the ones I enjoyed a bunch.
The Nylons with people I could dance with.
Michelle Shocked in a small venue where every single person there knew all the words to every song she sang. On two separate occasions.
Indigo Girls. First in a tiny little auditorium in Chapel Hill before they got famous, then at a giant stage in Seattle. Same girls doing the same great music, though.
Dire Straits. Holy cow, that was awesome.
Peter Gabriel. Decent show, but he was tired and the band was off.
Fred Small. One of the best folk singers of our lifetimes. He's a unitarian minister these days. Wish he was still singing, even though his songs make me cry. Those are the only songs I know that are -too- powerful. People listen to them and are so horrified and moved that they can't listen to them again. Makes it difficult to be a commercial success.
Sting. Smallish venue, good seats... and then AWESOME seats when my ex went up to do some of the sign language interpreting during the encores. She got to do Fortress Around Your Heart.
And lastly ... Mannheim Steamroller Christmas concert with HoFS holding my hand. We got moved from where we'd started out -- and ended up in about the third row of the first section of seats. Awesome.
Other stuff. GC, when you ground and get solid in what you believe, people know it. Sometimes they'll respect you for it. Other times they get pissed. I'm glad this particular OM went in that direction.
Me. Ah, me. I've been doing some interesting things the last few days. It was HoFS' birthday this last weekend. He's in a world of hurt with his hands (carpal tunnel; one surgery done, the other next week) and his knee (MRI last week, don't know results yet) and a few other major non-medical things going on in his life.
So I packed a few things and put me and DD in the car and we drove over there on Saturday. It's 365 miles. We did it in just about six hours.
He was stunned. I'm not sure he was able to be happy, 'cause he was stunned and busy and tired and disconnected and all that stuff.
By Monday morning when we left, though, things were... well. Really good begins to describe it. I think we learned some things about how hard it is, and how important it is, to find time to be connected even when there are four kids in the house, at least two of whom are pissed off about their entire existence.
This weekend we'll be at Cerri's for her party. We're still working on costumes. It's tough going, but I think we'll come up with things.
Work continues to be unsettled. It's a little difficult, but I'm doing what I can to make progress and provide support. I need to keep myself grounded. Sometimes that's hard to do, but that's all right. I need the practice.
My cousin is sick. Really sick -- when his sister called me on Sunday, she was leaving to be with him, and she didn't know whether she was going to make it before he died. He didn't die, and his vital signs are better. He still has a long way to go, though. Ketoacidosis and pancreatis, blood sugar over 400, cholesterol and tryglicerides in the stratosphere, BP 96/36 and dropping, pH levels way out of whack, heart rate way the heck too high, pneumonia, a massive infection of some kind that led to a fever of 107 for a while. Ended up on a ventilator, with (temporarily?) failed kidneys, and not responsive to the people around him.
That's a lot. I guess it all started on Wednesday or so, and went straight to heck pretty darned fast.
He's getting slowly better. Heart rate and blood chemistry heading back toward normal ranges, and he's gettingn closer to breathing on his own. There's still a long way to go -- he has an MRI today to evaluate the damage to his pancreas and whether there's any brain damage from the fever. *sigh*
It's been like that around here. Lots of colleagues and friends have family members who are very ill as well. Funny how that seems to go in waves. I'm sure there's something about the weather that does it.
You're welcome, FF. I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do. But I do have a perspective that most people aren't going to have. There was a lot I wanted to say. I hope some of it will help him get grounded.
Good gosh, J, how could I forget about the Nylons. I have every CD of theirs, too. Favorite song: This Island Earth.
OK, my tune de jure:
Beer For My Horses - (with Willie Nelson)
Well a man come on the 6 o’clock news Said somebody’s been shot, somebody’s been abused Somebody blew up a building Somebody stole a car Somebody got away Somebody didn’t get too far yeah They didn’t get too far
Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son A man had to answer for the wicked that he done Take all the rope in Texas Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys Hang them high in the street for all the people to see that
[Chorus:]
Justice is the one thing you should always find You got to saddle up your boys You got to draw a hard line When the gun smoke settles we’ll sing a victory tune We’ll all meet back at the local saloon We’ll raise up our glasses against evil forces Singing whiskey for my men, beer for my horses
We got too many gangsters doing dirty deeds We’ve got too much corruption, too much crime in the streets It’s time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground Send ’em all to their maker and he’ll settle ’em down You can bet he’ll set ’em down ’cause
Ap: I like that one... and I LOVE Bop Til You Drop. Because I know how to do the Lindy (though actually the version I know is more like West Coast Swing) and if you can dance to that tune, well, then you KNOW you are dancing. I only know two or three people who can do it. It's -fast-. And great fun! Haven't done it in years, though. Last time I danced to it was in 2000 at our 10th anniversary party.
FF: Happy Birthday! Cool about the birthday cake symbol by your name. I didn't know they did that.
By the time you read this it will probably be HAPPY BIRTHDAY FAITHFUL
Puuurrfect timing, SS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Lovely morning. H saw the kids off to school which is sadly very rare as he works at 6:00 every day. We had a lovely breakfast out and then went grocery shopping LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for the good wishes everyone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
On the way to work today I had this feeling, a feeling of lightness, not really "walking on the clouds" joy, but a quiet serenity of sorts and it took me a moment to put my finger on what this feeling was...it just felt so good.
You know what it was? Absence of pain...yep no pain, emotional or physical.
SS, you know what I'm talking about. It was just a really good calm, peaceful feeling.
Well, then I got to work and there was stress, and problems, and BS...but for that moment this morning on the way to work, I was utterly free of pain of any kind.
And it felt so good.
BTW, my date cancelled for this weekend. No biggie as I am still quite high from that feeling I realized I had this morning.
Just a brief post to let everybody know that as of early early early tomorrow morning, I'm off to WI/MN. If y'all need me, well, have a marshmallow or something.
Oh, and I'm gonna be a really -cute- peasant this weekend. (it's a masquerade ball, y'see...) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I 2k my son 2 a blacksmith's conference up north yes2rday. Was fun!
2day, he's got a "new" (old) anvil, a pole vise, a couple tongs, and a 2ple hammers. All he needs now is a forge, but that didn't stop him from putting some steel in the BBQ and banging on it some 2day!
(To give you some background information, Rex, the author of this email, is in his mid 40's about 6'4 and 220 lbs and contrary to this story, he is quite an intelligent person.)
Dear Friends,
My wife is fond of saying that my last words on this earth will be something akin to "Well, I have out done myself once again." No doubt you will see this true story chronicled in a Life Time movie in the near future. Here goes.
Last weekend I spied something at the Pawn shop that tickled my fancy. Note: Keep in mind that my "fancy" is easily tickled.) I bought something really cool for my wife. The occasion was our 22nd anniversary and I was looking for a little something extra for my sweet girl. What I came across was a 100,000-volt, pocket/purse-sized Tazer gun with a clip.
For those of you who are not familiar with this product, it is a less-than-lethal stun gun with two metal prongs designed to incapacitate an assailant with a shock of high-voltage, low amperage electricity while you flee to safety. The effects are supposed to be short lived, with no long-term adverse affect on your assailant, but allowing you adequate time to retreat to safety. You simply jab the prongs into your 250 lb tattooed assailant, push the button, and it will render him a slobbering, goggle-eyed, muscle-twitching, whimpering, pencil-neck geek. If you've never seen one of these things in action, then you're truly missing out - way too cool!
Long story short, I bought the device and brought it home. I loaded two AAA batteries in the darn thing and pushed the button. Nothing! I was so disappointed. Upon reading the directions (we don't need no stinkin' directions), I found much to my chagrin that this particular model would not create an arch between the prongs. How disappointing! I do love fire for effect. I learned that if I pushed the button, however, and pressed it against a metal surface that I'd get the blue arch of electricity darting back and forth between the prongs that I was so looking forward to. I did so. Awesome!!! Sparks, a blue arch of electricity, and a loud pop!!! Yipeeeeee. I'm easily amused, just for your information, but I have yet to explain to her what that burn spot is on the face of her microwave.
Okay, so I was home alone with this new toy, thinking to myself that it couldn't be all that bad with only two triple-a batteries, etc., etc. There I sat in my recliner, my dog looking on intently (trusting little soul), reading the directions (that would be me, not the dog) and thinking that I really needed to try this thing out on a flesh and blood target. I must admit I thought about zapping the dog for a fraction of a second and thought better of it. She is such a sweet pup, after all. But, if I was going to give this thing to my wife to protect herself against a mugger, I did want some assurance that it would work as advertised. Am I wrong?
Was I wrong to think that? Seemed reasonable to me at the time. So, there I sat in a pair of shorts and a tank top with my reading glasses perched delicately on the bridge of my nose, directions in one hand, Tazer in another. The directions said that a one-second burst would shock and disorient your assailant; a two-second burst was supposed to cause muscle spasms and a loss of bodily control; a three-second burst would purportedly make your assailant flop on the ground like a fish out of water.
All the while I'm looking at this little device (measuring about 5" long, less than 3/4 inch in circumference, pretty cute really, and loaded with two itsy, bitsy AAA batteries) thinking to myself, "no friggin' way!"
Friggin' way - trust me, but I'm getting ahead of myself.
What happened next is almost beyond description, but I'll do my best. Those of you who know me well have got a pretty good idea of what followed. I'm sitting there alone, the dog looking on with her head cocked to one side as to say, "don't do it buddy," reasoning that a one-second burst from such a tiny lil' ole thing couldn't hurt all that bad. (Sound, rational thinking under the circumstances, wouldn't you agree?) I decided to give myself a one-second burst just for the ****** of it.
(Note: You know, a bad decision is like hindsight-always twenty-twenty. It is so obvious that it was a bad decision after the fact, even though it seemed so right at the time. Don't ya hate that?) I touched the prongs to my naked thigh, pushed the button, and HOLY *********!!!! I'm pretty sure that Jessie Ventura ran in through the front door, picked me up out of that recliner, then body slammed me on the carpet over and over again. I vaguely recall waking up on my side in the fetal position, nipples on fire, testicles nowhere to be found, soaking wet, with my left arm tucked under my body in the oddest position. The dog was standing over me making sounds I had never heard before, licking my face, undoubtedly thinking to herself, "do it again, do it again!"
(Note: If you ever feel compelled to mug yourself with a Tazer, one note of caution. There is no such thing as a one-second burst when you zap yourself. You're not going to let go of that thing until it is dislodged from your hand by a violent thrashing about on the floor. Then, if you're lucky, you won't dislodge one of the prongs 1/4" deep in your thigh like yours truly.) SON-OF-A-***** that hurt! A minute or so later (I can't be sure, as time was a relative thing at this point), I collected my wits (what little I had left), sat up and surveyed the landscape. My reading glasses were on the mantel of the fireplace. How did they get there??? My triceps, right thigh and both titties were still twitching. My face felt like it had been shot up with Novocain, as my bottom lip weighed 88 lbs. give or take an ounce or two, I'm pretty sure. By the way, has anyone seen my testicles? I think they ran away. I'm offering a reward. They're round, rather large. Miss 'em ...... sure would like to get'em back.
I dunno if it helped GC or not, but I'm laughing so hard that my eyes are watering. Good lord, what an idiotic thing to do. Guess he knows it works, though.
Oh, and GC? You seemd kinda quiet, but not surly. So if it wasn't the company, what was it?
Okay, I lied a little, but it's no big thing. I don't feel like griping.
The days are longer, it's warm, the earth has thawed. It's going to be raining a lot, which I love. And if I don't mind a little chill I can sit on my porch and drink coffee on Saturday mornings.
And like the cold weather going away, my mood is bound to change too, but I'm officially, chronically, blue. Though... you have to be careful monitoring trends like this, because when you get sad, doesn't it seem like you can't remember when it started, and you feel like you've been sad forever?
Now, I no longer see a bout of sorrow as a tragedy that needs fixing. It's here, all wrapped around me, and I guess it's supposed to be. It's fine. It's not my first, It's not my last. I can take it. It's become a familiar experience.
But I'm thinking, I need something new. Not to make my sadness go away. It's here, and it's staying for a bit. But the discontent is kind of an opportunity, because it makes me want to change something.
So I'm thinking I'll troll here for ideas. Maybe some of you know me well enough to have suggestions.
I'm a busy feller. I'm working on my house, I'm working on music, I've started working on a little boat I've wanted to build for years, and I've started to work on my dissertation again, since finding out I can still finish.
I'm terribly unsatisfied with the band I'm in, and I want to do something different musically. Unfortunately, believe it or not, I don't know any people who have musical ambitions and are available and are interested in playing with me.
Sometimes I feel like it's time I took a vacation. I haven't taken one since summer '04, and that was not a vacation per se. But something like going to Europe alone seems a little dreary. And the thing about vacations is they don't really change you, except for the very best ones. I do miss a pair of friends I semi-lost in the divorce, and I know they'd be glad to see me if I visited. But there would be so much sparrow talk if I got together with them.
Also, I'd like to meet more women, duh. No online dating for me though. I tried it and disliked it.
I think about moving far away sometimes, but my parents are 70ish and I feel the obligation to stay close. Still, I've started to fantasize about finding a job and a nice piece of property somewhere else. Unfortunately, my career is not so portable. And I'm happy at my job. But I have started to develop a wandering eye. In a way, I feel like it's time for me to get outta here. Moving seems like a better idea all the time. But then I remember my parents...
As for my friends, I don't feel attached enough to them to stick around. Somehow I don't enjoy hanging around with most of them any more. Seems like I've changed and they haven't.
So there. State of the union.
Recap: very busy with solitary projects, don't meet many women, sick of my friends, sick of my band, wouldn't mind moving, could use a vacation.
What an honest post. I try not to get too analytical about my feelings - I've got three children to care for and their needs for the time being must come first. But there are things I want to do. I want to stand at the top of Niagara Falls hear the mad rush of water and get soaking wet; I want to go whale watching, preferably somewhere where the boat has to break through the ice; I want to go to Ground Zero so I can count my blessings; eat gelato in Rome and tour the beautiful city of Prague. One of my ambitions was to visit the Great Wall of China which I did last November (awesome). And somewhere on my journey I want to fall in love again. And if you think it's hard meeting women where you are, try being a single white mum in Asia. Men don't stay lonely here for long but it's not my type who fill their needs. There are tens of thousands of young filipinas working here (Hong Kong) on the lookout for a man. Strange wonderful city.
Sometimes when we are alone and don't have kids it is easy to become too self-focused...and this is what leads to unhappiness or disatisfaction.
I do it too Gray because I am alone without my D half the time, but I am learning that if you want something the best way to get it is to help someone else get it. The best way to find happiness is to help someone else become happy.
I have an acquaintance I met on the dating site who is a muscian like you, went through a very painful divorce and now spends his vacations going to Africa with a group of missionaries constructing buildings to be used as hospitals and such.
You can find these groups at small churches which help fund the missions. From what he tells me they always need/welcome help. Don't have to be religious, just have to have the willingness to go and help.
Maybe a working vacation like that would give you a new lease on life and point you in a direction of some sort.
I'm thinking of moving too Gray, and I know just how you feel about having a sense of needing to make some major changes...kind of like out-growing your life as it just doesn't really fit you anymore.
Since I have seen Gray with my own two eyes twice now, I can report on some changes that he probably wouldn't tell us about. He lives with them every day, after all, and may not notice.
I met Gray in October, 2004, when he came to a party at Cerri's. He was skinny then. Really skinny. He was pale, too, in a sort of blotchy unhealthy way. At the time, I didn't realize how different it was from his natural coloring.
The look around his eyes was of someone who was a living, breathing ghost. There was no one really there. He was just animating his body because he couldn't think of anything better to do with it.
On Sunday, I saw a man who is considerably taller (honest to god! maybe it's the way he was standing) than I remember. He's filled out -- the way a scrawny teenager becomes a strong man. He's solid, reconnected to the ground. He met my eyes, which I don't think he did much at all last time around.
He was dressed nicely in clothes that complement his (much better) coloring. He chatted and played some with a small child and was cheerful -- even though Cerri and I were still in our pajamas when he arrived and we were all so tired from the previous day that he really, really didn't get very much entertainment from us.
All in all? He looks, well, yummy. There is only one thing that seems to still be lurking there, somewhere in his eyes and how he holds his hands, and that's anger. Not depression, which is what he talks about here, but anger.
So GC, if you don't want to gripe in public, you can e-mail me. Dunno if there's anything that can be done to correct the problem at this point, but hey, nothing says we can't try.
He could roll around in manure and dress in a sack cloth and still look nummy, imo....but I think it has more to do with the MAN he IS.........his ki will always shine thru.
J, I was sure you'd spot that. In the company of most people it seems to go unnoticed. In the company I was with on Sunday, it felt tattooed on my face. Aaaanyway...
GC, most people would see it and not know what it is or what to do with it. What gives it away? The way your eyebrows work. The left one in particular.
My cousin had a band from Denmark (I think) stay with her during SxSW this year. She hosts a band from a different place every year. Met a lot of neat people that way.
Brave Combo is going to be here in SAT this month.
Since I have seen Gray with my own two eyes twice now, I can report on some changes that he probably wouldn't tell us about. He lives with them every day, after all, and may not notice.
And the butterfly emerges, a little sore and pissed-off from the pain of the cocoon, and a little disoriented from the changes...but it's only a matter of time now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
What's that Gray? You say you would rather talk about music? Well alrighty then...carry on! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Okay, I'm about to get a little cheesy here if no one minds...maybe just because I am really happy today. No reason...no new love, no new money, etc. but I woke up in peace and managed to stay in peace all day.
I read the threads on this board re: God and religion because it is such a huge interest of mine (well not the religion part of it anymore, but the God part and the people part) and I wish that someday we could all just have a friendly discussion about our own beliefs and journey to those beliefs, as unfinished as they may be.
It would go kind of like this -
"you know I had this feeling today, this feeling of peace that I have never known, and this light shown in me...and everywhere I went I saw this wonderful light shining in everyone else as well" And this experience was about as close to God as I think I have ever been"
"Wow, that's cool. This is what happened to me...which brought me to this belief (insert any belief)"
"Yanno I never looked at it that way, that sure is interesting"
And so on and so forth.
We could learn so much from each other and share so much with each other, and maybe through this learning and sharing we might actually evolve to new ideas...and maybe even closer to the truth and closer to God.
I'm not 2Long, but I'll try to answer. It's breathing -- and breathing the entirety of existence as you breath.
Everything is really clear.
You're more aware than you usually are. Colors are brighter. Noises are crisper.
And yet, there are no particular thoughts that mess with the internal quiet.
It all just... is.
My surface thoughts tend to continue to skim along the surface, jittering and chattering about how cool it all is. I let them. They're just extra noise to listen to.
And yeah, 2Long's reaction of *oh wow*... is about all I've been able to come up with, too.
I do know that afterwards, people react to me like I just got out of the shower and have a permanently sunny day around me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
None recently. I used 2 have those moments as a kid, without understanding what they were. I remember my folks expressing concern about me when they'd find me sitting on the lawn on a nice sunny day for many minutes at a time, unmoving but clearly awake.
When I was a teenager on one of our last family vacations to Yosemite, we were walking along the shore of Hetch Hetchy reservoir on a nice sunny day. I had let the rest of the family get ahead of me a couple hundred feet. I stopped, everything became "still" and I could feel and hear everything all around me, even trees moving in the breeze across the lake. Some big radial engine airplane was rumbling in the distance like a melody (it was 1967 and there were a lot of the old prop jobs still around even then). A goosebumpy experience.
I distinctly remember it ended when I started thinking about it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
It's quiet. Can you hear it? All around us there is noise and confusion. On the one side, there's a country song blaring in a round that repeats over and over:
You grab a line, I'll grab a pole We'll go fishin' in the crawfish hole FIVE card poker on Saturday night, Church on Sunday morning...
On the other side, there's the pounding beat of a dance song, with lyrics about love:
I still hear your voice, when you sleep next to me. I still feel your touch in my dreams. Forgive me my weakness, but I don't know why. Without you it's hard to survive.
Cause everytime we touch, I get this feeling. And everytime we kiss I swear I could fly.
Behind, someone's found an old Fred Small album and is playing the agonizing songs of reality. First one is about Palestine and Israel.
In the hills of Ayalon above the broken earth Two boys shout and play with a ball on a field of scrub and dirt Divided sons of Abraham -- exhausted embrace Prince of Islam, pride of Judah, know each other's face
"If we met on the sands of Sinai under a molten sky If you held me in your sights and looked me in the eye What would you do?"
"If we met on the sands of Sinai under a molten sky And if I held you in my sights and looked you in the eye I would shoot you dead."
Over yonder, there, it must be a group getting ready for the May Pole; the lyrics describe an old, old situation.
When in the springtime of the year When the trees are crowned with leaves When the ash and oak, and the birch and yew Are dressed in ribbons fair
When owls call the breathless moon In the blue veil of the night The shadows of the trees appear Amidst the lantern light
Cacophony all around. The campground is busy. And under the music, there are voices. Voices talking, voices laughing, voices wailing in sorrow.
Underneath that, there are the animals. A coyote not so far away. An owl, flying above the trees. The chitter of an awakened little critter, wishing it weren't out in the dark. Crickets and tree frogs and cicadas echoing near and far.
Even more. There is water somewhere, and wind in the pine trees. There is the crackling of the fire -- and somewhere up where the smoke reaches the stars, there is the hiss that's just background noise of existing. Maybe it's just the blood flowing through your ears.
Behind all that, though, there is a stillness larger yet. A stillness that holds each and every noise every single thing on earth could ever make. A silence so profound that the noises are engulfed by it.
I have never had a moment like that you and 2long have had...but when I feel peace so real that everyone I meet shines with it as well, I know I'm having some kind of something really special, and real. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I know how much your family enjoys those nasty flavored soda's ... you should go get them a bag of Harry Potter's Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Bean, by Jelly Belly...
Truly disgusting taste sensations just in time for Easter.
"earthworm, dirt, vomit" I had the pleasure of trying all three, thanks to my DD, the little chit.
Hey Weaver, you might want to try a book that really helped me understand about getting quiet and what you can do with it. Seven Masters, One Path, by John Selby, is a really excellent read. He covers a great deal of information in a slim volume, and does a really good job of walking you through the physical/physiological steps to getting quiet. It is not magic, after all -- it's a disciplined method of getting your synapses to do something very positive.
And I agree with 2Long. Your sense of peace is along exactly the same lines. One of the things that can come with quieting the thoughts is a sense of universal connectedness; an intuitive belief and realization that there is NO separation between you and everything else in the universe. My experience of that is limited and I'm not entirely sure that I've felt it all the way to my bones.
Your sense of the peace and luminescence that radiates from each person, though, seems like it's related.
Oh, and Weaver? Go camping! (When it's warmer.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Quote
I had the pleasure of trying all three, thanks to my DD, the little chit.
Iew. I mean really. IEW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Penny had folks out with telescopes the other night, 2Long. She saw Saturn through a scope for the first time and was -very- happy about it. She's talking about doing it monthly during the warm months. Maybe you can get in on the action if you ask nicely.... And go to the wilds of western WI, that is.
But if you do that, then you can also go have beer with GC, and that's a good thing.
Hey Weaver, I read that thing about Rev. Dan ____ that you posted. What's up with that?
I don't know, someone just called my house looking for him and that is how they asked for him. I was in a state of shock hearing them call him by that title so I all I said was he is not a Rev. and he doesn't live here...they said thank you and hung up.
I haven't seen him and no one else in my town (to my knowledge) has either since last summer.
He was at one time part of a Christian's men group and was raised Southern Babtist, so he could pull a scam...
He still doesn't have clear title to the island property though, he would have to at some time go through legal chanels to have me removed if he were to ever mortgage or sell it...but the title company can't locate him, and I didn't push it. A realator friend of mine looked up the title work on the property for me and said when a search is done it will show up that the title company screwed up when they didn't have me sign a quit claim deed. It's a mess for sure... and I suppose someday we will end up in court.
On another topic (which is far more interesting to me) you said something about the universal connectness of the universe...and yes, that is exactly it, I think for me. I am learning through (ACIM) that we are all not only connected that we are the sonship, the one and only metaphorical son of God...fragmented only through our bodies ( and kept separate by our egos).
...well it's metaphysical in philosophy and very spiritual.
It's so cool to me, to finally have it in words that I can relate to and think about.
Recovered wife, KY is our very own KY Yellow aka jelly queen...you know the one who lives down under from me, below the big Mac. (to answer your question posted on another thread)
That was one cool post of hers, I must say. On the loud side, but sometimes loud's all people hear.
I read Mortarman's update post, but it's not actually an update, just a notification about his new software that some people are selling. I couldn't figure out whether that's actually allowed here or not. I thought it wasn't? Well, it'll get sorted out.
HoFS comes into town late tonight. I've had a busy morning with DD -- we watched Winnie the Pooh's Grand Adventure, and then we got dressed, and then we went to the park and the other park and Starbucks and the post office. Then we came home and went next door for some crazy play, then we came home so she could change clothes and go to the bathroom, and then she headed for NJ with my ex and I headed for work. I have 44 minutes until a meeting for the kickoff of a new phase of the policy development I'm doing. I'm waiting for the copier right now.
It's a good thing I've been doing this for three years, otherwise I'd think I'm insane. I'm pretty sure there's no yogurt on any of the papers.... but I'm not positive.
I heard a commercial on TV about tax preparers and getting audited by a tax preparer who's also a stay-at-home dad. Pretty funny.... pretty true. But I'm really glad that more and more people's kids are that integrated into their lives nonetheless.
My tulips are gorgeous this year. The daffodils are lousy. I guess I'll have to lift them and replant them. But the tulips, good lord a-mighty, they're fantastic! I never thought the natrualizing ones that Dutch Gardens came out with would really work, but this is the third year and they're better than they were last year. It's very cool to do so little work for so much reward.
Now I have 14 minutes until my meeting starts. My copying is done and I have time to go to the bathroom and get quiet in my soul. This is a very good thing.
Someday, when all is complete, I'll post a link to some of the stuff I do. A zillion pages of the most boring policy ever. Pays the mortgage, though!
J - send me a picture of your tulips (2lips for 2long - hehe). I can't grow them here...it's too hot (2hot). The only almost similar plant (but not really) that I can get going are lilies. I love 2lips....sooooo much! Daffodils are pretty, but all off the different 2lips are amazing 2 me.
I love my new job. Not boring at all. I get 2 learn about karst surveys and cultural surveys and endangered species surveys.....It's a good job if you like being around a bunch of dirty people...hehe!
You ought to beg to go with them on an easy exploration some time. You will love it. Unless you are claustrophobic. I've gotten W to go several times and she loves it too.
Are there many caves in your area?
Not many near here but I run back home and burrow in with friends from college whenever I can.
I’m planning on taking up cave diving one of these days.
You ought to beg to go with them on an easy exploration some time. You will be love it. Unless you are claustrophobic. I've gotten W to go several times and she loves it too.
Are there many caves in your area?
Not many near here but I run back home and burrow in with friends from college whenever I can.
I’m planning on taking up cave diving one of these days.
I know I'd love it. I dig caves (pun intended).
Not claustrophobic at all. I have the opposite problem....BIG scares me. First time I saw the ocean I about peed my pants....it's that whole, there's not a shore on the other side thing.
There are tons of caves in central Texas. Can't swing a cat without hitting a hobbit hole.
Upper than downer these days, but still plodding along. No formalized recovery plans or stuff.
She's happier these days, though. Definitely. Even been silly a few times in the last 2ple months. She hasn't been silly in well over 15 years.
She's on her way 2 OOSP right now. Stuck in traffic on the way (spring breakers going 2 lost wages, I suspect). I'm planning on going Sa2rday, with MIL, who wants 2 see if the 2lips are blooming (no jive, I speak with straight tongue!). How long do 2lips live? Seems they've been there 60 or 70 years.
Appy, I have a Hammond in my dining room, with a full vase on it (fake ones most of the year), and so far NOBODY has gotten it. My dad asked about it, and I said, "I don't know Dad, I just like it when there are tulips on my organ", and nothing.
Hey, if you are going to talk about Hammonds you have to include The Doors.
Speaking of Germany, I lived there for four years... vienersnitchels and stout...or was it krout? Hard to say, I was in Kindergarten I think.
I wish I could post links...I just got a really cute one about the German Coastguard. Someting about an American radioing in that he was sinking "I'm sinking, I'm sinking", and the German, not speaking English very well, replying "vell, vat are you sinking about?". LOL
The other one was "when German Technology meets Eastern Philosophy" the car bomber parks in front of a cafe and pulls the cord, and the explosion stays completely inside his car.
I need to learn how to do links.
My tulips won't be up for about a month or so...just in case anyone was wondering.
Thanks for the tip on the kind that naturalize well J!
Veaver, I didn't let him come home because he just didn't sound like he wanted it badly enough, and it would take a lot of convincing for me to open the door. He wouldn't agree to MC and wasn't 100% on NC. The health thing makes it VERY hard though. I haven't resurrected the thread because there's nothing really to report. The biggest issue now is will he be able to work. Two issues; one is the dialysis is very costly and is not covered on the company insurance plan but for now they are paying, and second, will he be physically able to continue his work. It sucks Weaver and all I can do for now is just take each day as it comes. Day to day things are fine but I know there are some scary times ahead. TT
I can't wait until you can start dating TT. I'm sorry but I think everyone needs to have romantic love in their life...and it's getting to be about your turn I think.
Weaver, I can't wait either! Thank you. Can you send some of your many admirers my way. You seem to have no problem finding the guys. They are like gold-dust out here. Very unlikely I'll remain here though after June 2007 (when my eldest daughter finishes her exams). TT
Well I'm ready for you to come home....to Texas....
LOL! That way we can find someone for you and have the Wookie run a background check...cos ain't no one messin' around with my girl friend's heart ANYMORE!
What a soft load of mush I am. I just got tears in my eyes that you called me your girlfriend. I seriously have a thing for American men after finding MB. Just need a green card. Any offers? LOL
I contain beer, so I won't post about anything serious, and I certainly won't make typing errors.
I'm a real sad tomato, I'm a busted valentine.
I've been listening to The Flaming Lips quite a lot. I haven't warmed up to the new CD yet, so I've taken comfort in Yoshimi. Now, "Fight Test" doesn't exactly apply to me and my past (except in most every way) but it's still a wonderful song. And this is the same record that contains "Do You Realize". In your face, active rock losers!
I thought I was smart I thought I was right I thought it better not to fight I thought there was a virtue in always bein' cool
So it came time to fight I thought I'll just step aside And that the time would prove you wrong And that you Would be the fool &c
Listen to The Flaming Lips, the coolest rock band alive.
Oh that was really cute Jen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Now I have another new band to check out, so thanks Gray.
TT,
You can spend 6 months a year in the states as long as you maintain a residence in another country (and have proof), and of course leave for 6 months.
When your girls are gone you can come stay with me and hopefully I will be living some where really cool by then. Anyway what I'm saying is a lot can happen in 6 months (in the dating scene <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
You can make the rounds between all of your MB friends in the states and see the country. Wouldn't that be fun??????
The guy I am conversing with from Green Bay asked to come to town this weekend but I suggested he come in two weeks instead. I don't know, I think I am just not ready to meet him but he's funnier than all get out.
I'm no longer seeing the one from down state, he just didn't have a sense of humor and I couldn't stand that for long. Plus he said that my never being legally married was a red flag for him, and yet he has been married and divorced twice...and he told me he didn't even love his last wife, now don't you think that is a stupid thing to say? That ended it for me, as far as he is concerned.
And the motivational speaker from Detroit is cool and gorgeous, and all that...but I started to get the feeling he is a player so I am not even going to go there. I'm finally getting smarter in that area (I hope).
I suck at dating TT, I really do. Ever since DW, I feel like I'm on hyper red-flag radar.
THERE IS SOMEONE OUT THERE, A BETTER SOMEONE, FOR BOTH OF YOU.
Read my lips. My FLAMING lips.
Amen!! And Weaver too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I love ya, Jen even if you ARE full of wine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I don't think they let will you enter the cave though. Bat colonies are usually protected, especially this time of year.
Is it SAT or Austin that has a huge bat colony living under a bridge? Read about it in Nat Geo a couple of years ago.
I like bats. They eat lots of mosquitoes. Actually, we have few mosquitoes here – rains too much.
I remember reading Stellaluna to DS when he was little. He still has it on his bookshelf.
Years ago some friends and I were exploring an abandoned limestone quarry. We rappelled down a shaft that intersected a natural cave. The point guy went around a corner and promptly passed out. Must have been a million bats in that gallery. The ammonia from the bat chit almost killed him.
Holy bat spit, Batgirl, did you know vampire bat saliva is used as a preventative treatment for strokes?
Did you know that the bumblebee bat is the world’s smallest mammal?
And, did you know we learned from bats that exponential frequency chirps are optimal for simultaneous velocity and range determination?
Well, you get the picture. Bats are cool. As long as they don’t chit in my house.
I don't think they let will you enter the cave though. Bat colonies are usually protected, especially this time of year.
[color:"purple"] Actually, I found out that that particular cave is owned by BatCon, and you can only view by invitation...but a lady here is working on me getting an invite. As for not going into the cave....well! SHA! Have you SMELLED bat guano...blech! No, we were going to view their exit as they went about their night foray. I got names of other caves in the area that are public access to view the critters. [/color]
Is it SAT or Austin that has a huge bat colony living under a bridge? Read about it in Nat Geo a couple of years ago.
[color:"purple"] Congress St. Bridge, by the Austin American Statesman building. I used to take DS16 (ZZ) there when he was a little guy. The best time was on July 4th. We watched the bats fly out while eating ice cream from an ice cream truck, then watched the fireworks over Town Lake. [/color]
I like bats. They eat lots of mosquitoes. Actually, we have few mosquitoes here – rains too much.
[color:"purple"] I used to keep bat houses in my backyard for this very reason. [/color]
I remember reading Stellaluna to DS when he was little. He still has it on his bookshelf.
Years ago some friends and I were exploring an abandoned limestone quarry. We rappelled down a shaft that intersected a natural cave. The point guy went around a corner and promptly passed out. Must have been a million bats in that gallery. The ammonia from the bat chit almost killed him.
Holy bat spit, Batgirl, did you know vampire bat saliva is used as a preventative treatment for strokes?
Did you know that the bumblebee bat is the world’s smallest mammal?
And, did you know we learned from bats that exponential frequency chirps are optimal for simultaneous velocity and range determination?
Well, you get the picture. Bats are cool. As long as they don’t chit in my house.
[color:"purple"] Even if they get in your house, wait till they leave, then board up their exit. Please, please, please don't hurt 'em. [/color]
I hope everyone had a fantastic weekend. I know I did. Plenty of time with friends and family and HoFS. There's so much that even just highlights would be long. Will be, 'cause I'm gonna chatter for a minute, here.
HoFS took a little vacation and came in on Wednesday. He was supposed to leave Saturday night but a bad accident between here and the airport meant he missed his flight and had to stay until Sunday morning. I felt bad about that. He missed Easter mass and didn't have time to do much for his boys for Easter. I was also very happy that he could be here for another night, and we had fun doing some Easter things with my DD.
Thursday I had my screening mammogram, something that's been on the schedule for eons. It was really cool to walk out of the doctor's office and find someone who cares about me waiting for me. It's been, uhm, a very long time since that happened. My parents didn't even bother to take me to the doctor after I got old enough to walk there when I was in junior high.
I drove him past my old house and haunts while we were near there, and then we went to lunch at Cosi. Their salads are good.
Thursday afternoon we took a two hour nap. Now THERE is a delight for a weekday afternoon!
I made something tasty for supper. Can't for the life of me remember what it was, but ... oh yeah! Mexican cheeseburgers made on the grill, with butternut squash and baked tortilla chips and a big salad (HoFS and my brother both said there were too many vegetables in the meal. Oh well... they both ate 'em. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) Anchor Steam's Liberty Ale to wash it down. That is a mighty fine beer. Y'all should find some and pay the exorbitant price for a six-pack.
Friday was a "work" day, which means that we sat at Panera and worked for three hours after a lazy morning. Then we ran errands and made supper (tuna casserole for me and HoFS, chicken for my brother, asparagus with olive oil and balsamic vinegar, steamed broccoli, and peanut butter pie for dessert).
Saturday was a kid day. We dyed Easter eggs with DD and DD's friend and his family. It was a ton of fun and there are many pictures. I'll post 'em when I'm done editing.
Saturday afternoon we got another nap. Glorious! And then things got wonky with the missed flight. That meant a missed dinner and me feeling lousy about myself for a while. We did go to the park, though, and I got to swing on the swings and play on the slides. Good thing I have a toddler so that I can do that stuff when I need to. HoFS is smart enough to know when I need it, too. I love the man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
On Easter DD and I dressed up in our finery -- after she found her Easter basket and her eggs and we had a small breakfast -- and then we took HoFS to the airport. We came home and sat for a bit, and then went to the same friends for an outdoor plastic-egg hunt (each egg had four M&Ms in it). There was much play and running and fun then, too.
Then home again, time to put DD down for a nap, and my brother called. The one who lives in town, but not with me. "So... what time is supper?" Erk. I'd forgotten they were coming over for supper! "Uhm, 6pm! Come on over then. I'm looking forward to it!" So I put DD down for a nap, called HoFS who was home by then, and while he raced around and did eggs and baskets for his boys before picking them up, I raced around and did supper preparations. Bread makings in the bread maker, turkey and artichokes and various other things in the crock pot, recipe found for fruit compote.
Okay! It's 2pm, everything's done. Time to sit down. So I sat and read for a bit, and then took a 45 minute nap. DD woke up eventually and watched a video while I finished the food. Then my brother called from the Metro and we went to pick him up, and there was all kinds of fun with him, his girlfriend, and the brother who lives with me. DD was in heaven with all those people to play with. She is such a social little creature. Good thing she's got lots of friends, because there's no way I could keep up with her by herself.
When she decided she wanted to dance naked on the coffee table, though, we all decided it was time to end the evening. So I took her upstairs and we calmed down enough for her to call Mommy and talk to her, and then we worked on sleeping. It took her more than an hour to calm down enough to sleep, of course. But that's okay. I took my computer with me and edited pictures while I sat in the rocking chair.
After that, I called HoFS and we did his physical therapy exercises together. (He's having knee surgery on Thursday; this is prep stuff for the surgery.) We finished chatting just after midnight, and then I went to sleep.
Woke up to DD climbing in my bed sometime after 6am. We woke up again at 7:30 and managed to make it to her preschool by 9:15. Thank goodness I have a pretty good routine -- I stretched it to its max today, I think. I knew I was in trouble when I was putting eyeliner on in a towel and making pancakes at the same time. But DD got food in her and we both got dressed and we were on time (but not early) to school.
So here I sit in Panera, in my usual Monday spot doing my usual Monday stuff. I'm a whole lot more relaxed than I was the last time I did this, though. It was really, really good to go on vacation at home. I should do that more often.
I should do mine. It was a little eventful, and interesting.
I took Friday off to have a long weekend. I had plans to work on certain things Friday, important stuff. But after my roommate took off, I got out my violin and started hacking. I'm an absolute beginner, so it's rough going, but also wonderful because that initial improvement is so fast.
To get my self-esteem back I took out my guitar. The muse visited and I spent the entire day in my basement in front of a mic working on songs. Everything I write is still about loss, and still not showing much sympathy for the perpetrator. But I think it does burn some fuel from the resentment tank. I hope so at least. And it's one of my favorite ways to spend a day alone.
Saturday the singer and I planned to work on music, and I was excited for the chance to teach her the new stuff right away. Got to her house, and she and her H wanted to shoot hoops before we started. It was another gorgeous day, and since I'd spent the last one in my basement, it was probably better to get out a bit. After basketball, my pal still didn't want to go to the basement, so we took our guitars out to her back porch and got to work.
Her yard is full of bird feeders, and she has come fully unhinged. I could hold her attention for maybe two minutes at a stretch, then she'd space out and stare at the birds and totally ignore everything I said. We got a little work done, but none of the new stuff I'd hoped to do. I didn't care. It was a joy to sit out there and play even a little.
Things were going okay, then a friend of ours called. His wife is out of town with their new baby, and it was his first chance to socialize in months. He had an old friend with him and wanted to come and hang out.
He arrived, and was accompanied by--what else--a great-looking girl about my age.
She has a boyfriend she's been with a long time. She said, "I have to get out of that."
More friends arrived; everyone was having fun.
yadda yadda conversation, yadda yadda dinner, yadda yadda conversation...
So there I am, innocently dancing with this very appealing girl with a boyfriend, and she hauls off and kisses me.
It was a sneak attack, and I didn't really kiss her back, but I could have stopped her sooner. What can I say? I wanted to live a little. Mama! I was turning into a mental patient, and fast.
It's too bad. That troublesome woman really had me going for a minute. Still does. But no way.
J said: And then things got wonky with the missed flight. That meant a missed dinner and me feeling lousy about myself for a while.
OK J, As near as I can tell, you have been doing wonderful. Not that there havn't been snags, but from what I have read, you have been "UP" consistantly. I still think about you but figured Hofs was taking care of you. And, he is, but .....
Please explain how this chain of events made you feel "lousy about yourself for a while." I care about you, I want to know.
Faithful, At this point I would guess that if you don't talk much about your situation, it means the progress has stopped, or been slow. I know Kimmy looks after you, so I won't press you, but remember people think about you and care about you.
2long, I am glad it's mostly up for you. I thought back about how things were when I first came and started reading along with you and spacecase. I wanted so much for your W to get it, and help you. Sorry it's taken so long, and sorry she didn't have a light bulb moment where it all came to her. Was always worried about your feeligs - it's hard on a person.
Hope your weekend was good - did you end up making the trip? I never saw you go by.
Hi Gray. I think about you a lot. You are your own person, not stamped out on an assembly line. (of course no one is really, but this thought came to me, and it's important for me to say this to you.)
I know a lot of things don't make sense, but this life is a test. If it were all easy to figure out, we couldn't acomplish what we came here to acomplish. Don't think you you are not making progress. There is a purpose to the things you have been through. You are getting something from it, and not just becoming a skeptic. (this is where you laugh.)
I'm glad you have a sense of humor, it helps. Laugh some more, and let the kinks out of your soul. It's good for us.
One of the reasons I respect you is that you never gave up. Don't take this at it's face value, think on it a little bit. I'm talking about your personal value system, and how you interact with the world. You never gave up. That is priceless.
Binder, Hope things are well in the frozen north. (grin.) Thinking about you.
Weaver, You are doing so well. You have a much more healthy self image now. You have doubts sometimes, but they are the normal ones that serve as a protection for us - to keep us thinking and help us avoid mistakes.
I think of you as a very successful person. Not that things are perfect, but that you are making good decisions, and you are working carefully to make a good future for you and for P. Success doesn't always mean we have everthing we would like. It means we do the best we can with what life hands us. I am so impressed.
Thank you SS, it means so much to me for you to say that.
I view the entire world differently now, not only myself.
To tell you the truth, if my dreams were to come true...they would be only that I serve as a light, both in my own family/world as well as in the people who come into my life, no matter for how long.
If I ever do have another serious relationship it will serve God's purpose for me, for him, for my DD as well as the universe, or it simply will not be.
I have great hope that there is a guy out there He has in mind for me, so I date on, but if not so be it.
Okay I had to edit this because it just sounded so sappy and not like me really, what I mean to serve God's purpose for me is that it is a happy, healthy R, bringing good into our lives as well as others. As in it serves to "increase and extend" our love for each other outward into our community. I just absolutely love "increase and extend" when talking about R's and love.
J, I really enjoyed reading about your vacation and time with HoFS. Your DD is so precious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> GC, sneak attack eh? I think you need more of those my friend. Hi 2long, Weaver, Binder, Kimmy, Appy and anyone else I missed on this thread.
SS, my friend..what can I say? It is two steps forward and one back. We are doing pretty well. My kids are great so everything is worthwhile for that very reason. I discovered this morning that I am extremely traumatized by all of this. I don't really know how to heal at this point, but told my H I need him to help with my healing. I still have loads of triggers and anger, plus every time his mother calls our house it sends me into bad place. Not very Christian to say and I am ashamed of that but she betrayed me and my kids nearly as much as my H has. At least HE has apologized, but she continues to betray us. I am reading a book called "Forgive for Good". I hope it helps. I need direction, maybe counseling. Anyway, thank you for always thinking of every one like you do. How are YOU?
2rns out my son has a blacksmith's lesson 2day and a piano lesson 2morrow, so we're heading out on Wednesday morning. Going 2 try 2 get going early, because the I-15 is under construction between Yermo and Baker, and I'd rather not go around via 95!
Graycloud got schmooched. Shame it wasn't a more suitable schmoocher. But GC, your friend's place sounds fantastic. People strumming guitars, chatting, drinking and dancing (and kissing). Sounds like a great house party. What fun.
I wrote on this thread on page... uhm... 6 or 8 or 20 or something... and said much the same that I'll say today...
This thread... is like walking into a wonderful old bookstore... or one of those new age stores with crystals and incense... just reading here drops my blood pressure and makes me smile.
So, I'm one of the many who drop by the campfire/discussion/circle occasionally to catch up... and think of you guys warmly even when I can't drop by...
Just wanted to let you know... and say thanks for letting me bask in your sunlight.
I know, TT. I wish I could just be a wallflower in one of those parties. GC, waiting for the day the right one comes along for you my dear. Hi new_beginning.
Oh, weaver... I LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE books... and truly, my blood pressure drops just going into a store... ANY BOOKSTORE... it can be the brand new books at Barnes & Noble... or the one's I honestly prefer: those old, out-of-the-way, used book stores (or not so out-of-the-way, like the Bodhi Tree on Melrose in Hollywood - which says they have "books to illuminate the heart and mind")...
And if, by chance, they also have soft lighting and alcoves to sit, incense burning - but not too strong, soft music - any will do, and books that are hard to find, then all the better!
I love bookstores too. Spend way too much time in 'em.
Faitful, SS is doing well nearly all the time. Too busy, but well.
2long, I drove through that construction south bound about a month ago. The north bound lane was backed up for over ten miles at about 10 at night. Of course it was a friday, so it was worse than normal.
Hey, did you see Pride and Prejudice, the new movie? It was awsome! I wish I had a house full of teenage girls I was trying to get married off to wealthy land owners...nothing but balls and tea parties! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Oh KiwiJen, I don't know you that well, but I hope you don't mind me saying that you're a brat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Tell me you play soothing music and have little alcoves for reading Emily Dickensen and Louisa May Alcott... or that you serve aromatic tea on stormy days and the place smells like cinnimon... or that you have far fewer paperbacks than hard covers...
Tell me you play soothing music and have little alcoves for reading Emily Dickensen and Louisa May Alcott...
What are we twins? Did you see my previous quote on balls and tea parties? Simulaneously posted no less! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, our books ARE often new. People often read a (just released) book once and then sell it (their loss, our gain). Book reviewers also sell their review copies to us. Then someone else will come in with a first edition of a book from 1600. It's a wonderful, wonderful business to be in.
It's like my own personal library. I borrow them, read them and send them back to sell.
LMAO, yes Weaver, with my sticky little kiwi prints on them.
NBII, we have leather chairs upstairs for people to sit and read. DH plays his favourite blues, a bit of Keb Mo, Jack Johnson, old Fleetwood Mac. The customers (who are mainly baby boomers) just LOVE IT.
We also sell over the internet. HUGE range of customers from the States.
Hey, my DD and her H invited me and my son over 2 watch a movie last night (they have surround sound and a honkin' big plasma screen).
I wanted 2 watch Pride and Prejudice, but my son didn't.
We watched "The Island" instead.
I can ALWAYS make time for Scarlet Johannsen! (she's an EN, I figure. GC should weigh in on this issue. It's important!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jen, yes I am greeeeeeeeeen with envy. I love, love books! My entire childhood was spent in the library or hidden behind a book! My 5th grade teacher had a contest throughout the school year. Whoever read the most pages won..guess who won? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
And Gray doesn't care about any woman and her EN'S in Pride and Prejudice...he would be too busy trying to learn the dance steps! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Tell me you play soothing music and have little alcoves for reading Emily Dickensen and Louisa May Alcott...
What are we twins? Did you see my previous quote on balls and tea parties? Simulaneously posted no less! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ah weaver, GREAT MINDS, and all that, eh?
We know what we like, and obviously are not afraid to say it - at the very same time, no less! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Scarlet Johannsen? She's okay. I mean, you know... okay, I guess, for a drop-dead gorgeous woman. A need? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Uh, no.
I was an avid reader as a kid, too. And since I have no idea if ya'll are old-timer's like me, maybe you don't know my favorite girl: Nancy Drew, who constantly found herself in a clocktower being starved to death, though she never died and wasn't gonna, but dang, I was very worried about that girl!
Jen, your shop (shoppe?) sounds wonderful. Certainly nicer than reading fossilized excerpts on Amazon.
What’s all this about MM? 2long pointed me here otherwise I’d be in the hot tub. Guess I better catch up. I go skiing for a few days and something bad happens.
Weaver, was it you on that other thread asking about entanglement and spooky action at a distance? Do you really want to know? Just a little entanglement can give one a really bad headache, you know.
It's true; I like pretty women. I can't help it. It isn't my fault!
The winner of the 2006 Pulitzer for fiction is a book called March by Geraldine Brooks. It tells the story of the absent father from Little Women.
I'll bet you $1 he has an affair.
Scarlett Johansson? She's swell. I skipped Match Point though. A friend of mine called me after she saw it and said "Gray do not see that movie. And I'm not just saying that because it sucks."
Jen, I hope you're ready for me, because I'm coming to work in your bookstore and finish my diss.
I have those Nancy Drew games, too! I mean ***I*** play them... that's the closest I get to video games... my son gets them for me for my birthday! LOL
Trixie Beldon? No, haven't heard of her... but her name sounds like she should have a horse. Does she ride?
ncwalker,
Oh yes, I've heard of Wicipedia too, and not in a nice way. I mean, it wasn't about me, but I would hate to be the person who's name was added under the definition of "steaming poo" or "pustule"!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
As a kid I liked reading about animals and this one beautiful witch who lived back in the woods, well she was a vet of sorts but she cured them with witchcraft, which was actually love.
And if I could find any books about beautiful nun's, well that was just as good. Beautiful witch's or beautiful nuns. Don't remember any names of the books though.
Then when I became a teen, it was all stuff like JLS.
I was and still am very, very wierd.
Ap,
I just wanted to know how the spooky space between protrons could be likened to what happens in the universe when two people are attracted to each other romantically. (and not OP or WS addiction stuff either...when it is a GOOD thing)
Okay, can you do that?
But I am going to go visit that link you gave right now.
LOL, GC, you're welcome any time you like. I bet there are some nice single kiwi girls who'd like to give you a smooch. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
FF, I read Trixie Beldon as well. Her best friend's name was Honey. I thought Honey was the most beautiful name I'd ever heard and so "American" LOL. There was another girl heroine called Donna something. She went to Hawaii. LOL, I'd forgotten all about them. My favourites of all time were the Little House books.
I wanted to BE Honey, Jen <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I loved the Little House books too! Did you see my post to you in Idiotville?
"I just wanted to know how the spooky space between protons could be likened to what happens in the universe when two people are attracted to each other romantically. (and not OP or WS addiction stuff either...when it is a GOOD thing)"
Huh?
I can write down the equations predicting the interactions between any two subatomic particles you choose. I can even put a couple of them in 11 dimensions for you, if you wish.
But what happens to the universe when two people are attracted romantically?
Uh, err, hah… space time twists or something. Yeah, that’s it. It gets all twisty like. The protons in my head start spinning. And time dilates, it dilates a lot.
And in the case of my particles, they fell out of my mouth all over the floor every time I tried to entangle with FWW.
Added: As my FWW likes to say, "Welcome to my world."
As a result, measurements performed on one system seem to be instantaneously influencing other systems entangled with it.
And "spooky actions at a distance" in reference to what happens with mutual attraction/relationship (even if apart) is that what one does has effects on the other but it can't really be explained.
Say I fall in love with someone but this love cannot be requited for one reason or another...but stuff keeps happening which still binds us and somehow we stay entangled with each other.
Oh never mind, I can't quite grasp what the scientist in the show was saying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
But what happens to the universe when two people are attracted romantically?
Uh, err, hah… space time twists or something. Yeah, that’s it. It gets all twisty like. The protons in my head start spinning. And time dilates, it dilates a lot.
And in the case of my particles, they fell out of my mouth all over the floor every time I tried to entangle with FWW.
Oh that was hilarious! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Almost all of this is over my head ......... however........ I know how to read, if the words are not too big, and I can roast marshmellows over the fire.
OMG, I'm still laughing over AP...I'm sorry AP, but that was way funny. The "whew" part too.
SS, me too, but yanno I just keep plodding on along anyway. LOL I used to try to keep my mouth shut but now I just blurt any stupid old thing out...hoping that somewhere along the line it will all align somehow into something that actually comes together in a way that makes sense...to someone. LOL
The winner of the 2006 Pulitzer for fiction is a book called March by Geraldine Brooks. It tells the story of the absent father from Little Women.
I haven't read this yet Gray, but did you read "The Shipping News", by Annie Proux, it too won a Pulitzer Prize a few years ago.
The hero in the book was a BS...but it is nontheless an incredible book and one of my all time favorites. I had to put it down several times because of his pain, but it is something everyone should try to read IMO.
I used to read much more prior to Dday. I now spend far too much time on the computer instead.
I was invited to a book club meeting last week so although I hadn't read the book, I thought it would be a good way of meeting some new people and maybe having some intellectually stimulating conversation. Wrong. At 12.30 am when I left, the people were mostly drunk, argumentative and the book hadn't been mentioned once. No idea what next month's book is or whether I'll bother going.
Is the film "You've got Mail" the one where Meg Ryan has that cute little bookstore that has to close? Jen - is your's an adult version of that?
I read The Shipping News long long ago, when it was new. One of the more enjoyable reads I can remember. I keep meaning to pick it up again. When I like a book I read it over and over. Annie Proulx's writing is bleak. I'll never forget the old man in one of the Close Range stories who says to his family, "I'll carry you all to he!! and spit on you."
I insist! SJ is an EN! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ac2ally, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she does something soon in her personal life or in the movies that 2rns my stomach.
Like Jolie. I can remember when I thought SHE was hot, even WITH her fat lips. That was until 4.5 years ago - one of the emails I saw on d-day talked about how RM's perfect woman would be an Angelina Jolie about 26 years old, all his own.
SJ was in that lost in translation movie with Bill Murray. Clearly they had an EA, which tweaked my gain knob because it wasn't handled entirely right, in my view.
I started reading the Philip Pullman "His Dark Materials" trilogy. Very well written. My sister, bigsis, had recommended them 2 my kids, and they loved them - even more than the Harry Potter and LOTR stories.
I started reading the first one, The Golden Compass, while on travel last month, so I'm not very far in2 it yet, and I've been 2 busy 2 pick it up again.
I also devoured all the non fiction books about astronomy and dinosaurs when I was about 9-12. When I was 10, I read Edwin H. Colbert's "Dinosaurs: Their Discovery and their World". Check it out. I'm pretty proud of myself for reading that stuff at that age...
XIT was a sometimes rather militant native American band from the early 70's that I got interested in while working on the Navajo Reservation back then.
My favorite books for girls were the Anne books and the Little Colonel books. The latter were written in the Deep South in the 1890s and 1900s, and my grandmother received them as gifts when she was a child. I had to be very careful when I read them -- the paper wasn't the highest quality, and it was very brittle.
The stories themselves are wonderful -- and their portrayal of African-Americans is sure to be objectionable to many. Still, I think they're an accurate reflection of the relationships between blacks and whites in the American south of that time. I'll let DD read them when she's old enough, as long as she and I can talk about them and what we don't agree with anymore, too.
The Anne books are quite timeless, as far as I can tell. I re-read them a few years ago and found that many of the situations and lessons in them are ones that still apply today, ones that we still need to think about. I loved the way Anne got herself into and out of scrapes. My favorites of all the books were the later ones where she had kids of her own. That family -- with all the kids and laughter and love -- is perhaps the closest thing I have to a vision of a "perfect" family.
Odd, that. Never thought about that till just now.
Ooo, and remember Captain Jim and the lighthouse? How romantic and sad! And remember how wonderful Gilbert turned out to be? After all that time when Anne thought he was a dodohead. Hee hee hee.
Ahem, okay, I'm done being an adolescent girl, now.
The other half of my brain loved Heinlein. Warning: Do not let your children read Heinlein without your careful oversight. His ideas about marriage and relationships, particularly in Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Time Enough For Love shaped much of my worldview. And while he weaves a good yarn, he seems to always leave out the ugly consequences of the fact that real people are never as smart or perfect as his characters. And then there's the whole reactionary libertarian part. *sigh*
Let's see, what else did I read? Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Riddlemaster of Hed, Piers Anthony. Escapism? Absosmurfly! I Did Not Like my world when I was a kid.
These days, I know that things are going well when I have a little time to read (an hour, say), but not more or less than that.
I haven't read fiction for a solid uninterrupted hour since DD was born, of course, but that's okay. I'm managing to slowly work my way through the latest Honor Harrington book nonetheless. I got it for Christmas and I'm maybe 2/3 of the way through...
SS, you asked about feeling bad about myself. It lasted for about an hour while we were trying to get to -- and then back from -- the airport. The problem was that I couldn't take the time to sit still for a moment and really feel my upset. (Driving a car is not the time to close your eyes and feel intense emotions...) Because of that, the yucky stuff lasted a good bit longer than it usually does. Once I was able to get out of the car and be quiet with myself, feel the intense emotions, and then release them, all was well again in my world.
HoFS is still wonderful. I wrote him a letter about my hopes and dreams. He said I sounded young -- excited -- and very happy in it. All true. He didn't write me a letter, but things were said and implications made and, well, things progress.
The first weekend of May, he's going to meet my parents, my sister, and two of my cousins. Later this month there's a chance I'll meet his dad. All the brothers are already out of the way in terms of meeting. Somehow the brothers are the easy ones.
And all the kids have met us and each other now. What a crazy weekend that was. Whee!
Nowadays, I love books that bring beauty into my life... unless I'm in a dark mood, and then (don't mock me) I *will* be forced to check out a Stephen King from the library...
Ahem... anyway...
My favorite adult-lady books are: Rebecca (duMaurier) and Anne Morrow Lindbergh's Gift from the Sea... which is gorgeous beyond belief. A newer book I like a LOT is Jane Mendelsohn's I was Amelia Earhart, but be warned if tempted to read it: Infidelity-RED-alert.
When I'm regressing and NOT reading Nancy Drew or Harry Potter, I like Burnett's Secret Garden and my old-faithful tear-jerker, White's Charlotte's Web...
Dang, I love books. Just feel gooshy thinking about them all...
(Do guys feel gooshy? I didn't think so. Unless SJ is involved, eh 2long? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
I'm notably absent 'cause I was taking the pics, so here's a couple of me and HoFS from Cerri's party. You can look at the rest of the party pics too, if you want. They're just not of people you'd know, prolly.
NB, we are twins separated at birth <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Love,love DuMaurier especially Rebecca , the Secret Garden was my favorite children's book as well as the EB White books. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
In my 20's I was into WWll spy novels and loved to read Ken Follett. My favorite of his was The Key to Rebecca which used text from the DuMaurier's Rebecca as secret code.
I'm notably absent 'cause I was taking the pics, so here's a couple of me and HoFS from Cerri's party. You can look at the rest of the party pics too, if you want. They're just not of people you'd know, prolly.
My divorce attorney did the work she did on my behalf almost for free. When my former wife had me served, I paid my lawyer a small retainer, and that was the last money I paid her, aside from reimbursing her for court costs once.
While my divorce was not hugely time-consuming, there is no way my retainer covered her time. She probably spent 5-10 times the billable hours that amount was intended to cover.
We never had a conversation to verify this, but I assume she decided early on to take my retainer and never bill me. I never received a statement from her.
FYI, my attorney was a BS. She tried to piece things back together with her H after the A, they had a child, and shortly afterward, she caught him at it again and went ahead with a divorce immediately. Which may explain why she was generous with her time on my behalf, though I don't know for sure because we never spoke about it.
During the holidays I sent her a card thanking her for all she's done for me. We exchanged emails once after that--this would be about three months ago--to verify that the one last thing we had to do was all set, and that was it.
I don't feel like I've thanked her enough. And I like her.
Any suggestions?
I'm not trying to put the moves on her. I just want to acknowledge her generosity and let her know that I'm grateful. But I'm not sure how to go about it. We haven't even spoken on the phone since I'd say November '05.
A thought has occured to me regarding the books we all read as young children...
Our interests didn't change too much from childhood favorite books up to present time...and some of us even went into related fields, hobbies, etc.
If what I am thinking is true... I am, and have always been interested in being alone.
All my heroins were alone, nuns, witches who lived in the woods...even my heros from the books I read (philosophers, healers).
I think I may have chosen this for myself (maybe before birth even) and that is why I have always been attracted to reading about those types of people.
Yes SS, they are all incredibly good and filled with love/light...
...I hope this is it more than the alone part. I didn't even think of that, but I did think of the almost mystical type of hero's/heroin's they seem to all be.
Thank you, because I don't want to be alone, at least not consciously.
I think it is deeper than the alone part. We all work out these things in our selves, and come to know who we are. I think when you finally know all about who you are, you will like what you see.
I really think you will. It is often said that beauty is skin deep, but you have it on the inside. It has been so wonderful to see you learn, grow, and change. Isn't it wonderful how God can take the pain, and use it for our good.
I don't think you need to worry all that much. Only just enough to look at your self from time to time so you can get an accurate picture of where you are, and where you need to go.
Isn't it wonderful how God can take the pain, and use it for our good.
Yes! Behind every grievance is a miracle, if only one would look.
I have an exercise I practice now (when I can think of it), when I am irritated or in conflict with someone (at work this happens usually)...
I ask that the grievance be set down and the miracle behind it shown...and I ask the same thing for the other person involved as well (all silently of course)
I can't say I have seen any miracles yet, but it does calm me down enough that I no longer feel stress or anger. (maybe that is the miracle in these cases)
I don't know why I just rattled that off to you SS...perhaps you do the same thing, well you probably always knew about that little trick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
You know it's hard to say with her. She and I are relatively alone (she has family on her dad's side though) and lived pretty much alone together until her Dad sued me for custody (at age 8) and until I met Dan (but he traveled so much and Paige and I, not he and I shared a bedroom when he lived with us, so as far as Paige was concerned even then, it was just the two of us pretty much).
We are so bonded and close, and have always gotten along really well anyway...so I just don't know.
She does seem like she is getting very protective of me though (maybe because she doesn't want to go through anymore of the pain we have so far)...so that if she even senses sadness in me she will ask me about it.
She has barely seen anger in me, I am not a yeller and have always adored her, so she wouldn't notice any changes in this area.
She did ask me if DW was a liar. This was all she wanted to know about him when I mentioned she would at some point be meeting him.
We are so bonded and close, and have always gotten along really well anyway...so I just don't know. So cool !!
She does seem like she is getting very protective of me though (maybe because she doesn't want to go through anymore of the pain we have so far)...so that if she even senses sadness in me she will ask me about it.
This is worth sooooooo much. It means she trusts you, or she couldn't talk to you like she does. It also means she is sensitive and not self centered.
She did ask me if DW was a liar. This was all she wanted to know about him when I mentioned she would at some point be meeting him.
This part is sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But......... at least she gets it enough to ask.
Well, I realized just how much she was affected by what Dan had done. She really adored him you know, and when he left he never even said goodbye to her...nothing! We had very few close people in our life after my parents died (she was 4), and he was important to her.
The island property was a big part of her life too, she had her fort there and our camper. She and I had spent quite a lot of time there...so she suffered this loss as well.
I had driven to the ferry with her one day, to get our things out of the camper and she refused to get onto the ferry. She said she didn't want anything from our property and didn't want to go. I never attempted to go back after that.
So yes, it is sad..and why I will be very, very careful who I allow into our life again.
J, When I asked about you, I was puzzled as to why you worded it the way you did. Perhaps I don't understand all the events that happened, but I couldn't figure out why the events (that I knew about) would affect your self image.
It is so hard though to keep the bad ones out, when you are forced to give people a chance...otherwise how would you know?
One thing her Dad and I did right was that neither one of us brought a romantic interest into her life until she was six (that just happened to be when we both got serious enough to get engaged to someone). She had a very strong sense of who her parents were, and that no one would ever threaten her security in that truth.
We discussed that at her birth, agreed upon it and kept our promises to each other and to her...because we knew we were not going to be together, although we did try for awhile.
I do not solely blame the parents for who they allow into the childs life any longer...why do people have to be so stupid as to intrude on a childs life without the responsibility of making sure they do not upset that childs life.
People can be so blind.
You will guard your daughter like a mother bear, of this I have no doubt J.
Anytime you're frustrated or annoyed or angry, SS, it's because you've tripped over some underlying thing that has created a drop in self-worth while you're in a vulnerable position. It feels icky -- like you're unlovable, inadequate, powerless, disregarded, disrespected, etc. (I can never remember all of them.)
In this case, I was feeling bad about not getting HoFS to the airport -- inadequate and powerless -- and needed to take a few seconds to really FEEL that. It wasn't an intense all-day sort of thing. I took the time to do it between setting DD in the swing and giving her that first, glorious under-duck of a push.
And then I got on the swings myself, and all was much, much better.
Weaver, I -am- a Mama Bear. I just spell my last name a little differently. Sounds the same, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But it's hard to protect against someone your own heart is open to. I worry that I'm not careful enough with her because of that. She still asks after the woman I dated last year sometimes, and I still feel bad for saying that we probably won't see her anymore. They met in March. We dated until July. Saw each other maybe once a week for a couple of hours.
And on Saturday night when we missed HoFS' flight, DD was in the back seat and so I told her we were going to take him home again and asked her how long she thought we should keep him.
"Forever," she replied.
She's three.
Forever is a real concept to her. And to me. And I'd like to fulfill that request of hers.
Scary, to have a little child trust that much in a world that doesn't seem to work that way.
Particularly because I was that little child once and wanted the world to work that way -- and it didn't.
J, well put. Tripping over something is exactly how it seems. You're going along fine, and then something--possibly even a very small thing by all appearances--snares you, and gank! Down you go.
My friend, I could email you and ask this, but I'll do it here instead.
Please tell me you are writing a book... of prose... of thoughts... of tripping over things... of living.
I would SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO buy it! I would give it as gifts. I would hold it by my heart and keep it forever... you, my friend, are a gift. I love your writing... it speaks to my soul.
<mush, mush, blah, blah, I know!>
Great pictures, too. Thanks for sharing them... everyone looks fab!!!!!!
Hi NBII!! Oh, well, you signed the note Sheryl, so I can call you that, too. So funny -- so many names for one person. Good thing I lived for years in an online roleplaying world. The names can change, but the souls underneath are always the same.
I've been asked to put my meanderings in a book before. I've thought about it, and I've collected some of what I've written here and elsewhere into files. Someday I would love to write an autobiography out of all the bits and pieces of writings that I've saved over the years -- my e-mail, posts here and on all the boards I've been on in the last 20 years, the roleplaying game, blogs, even the little bits of documentation and journaling I've done.
But yet there doesn't seem to be a plot to the story, and that's where I always stop. There are some wonderful stories I could tell -- the insanity of the Germany project, the story of my life with my ex, the story of DD's existence, the story of the end of things with my ex, the story of meeting HoFS (I don't quite know the ending of that one yet). But the overall plotting of the story is very hard for me.
Well, and I wonder who would really bother to buy a story about me and DD going to the park and playing on the slides, you know? It seems silly. Particularly when all they have to do is come to the campfire to read them! (Yes, I know, most people don't know where the campfire is.)
So I collect things and sometimes I think about putting it all together. I haven't gotten there yet, though.
Perhaps I should talk to Penny about it. She self-published her e-book and it didn't seem impossible. And I did promise to write a book out of all the homework assignments I've done. That will be hard writing, though, not fun writing. Combining Harley's principles with the Dalai Lama's treatment of ethics, Helen Fisher's work on the biochemistry of love, the Pope's recent encyclical on love, Stosny's compassion power work, and the princples of coaching? Yep, that's gonna be pretty difficult. There's some really, really worthwhile thoughts in there. It'll just be a whole lot of work.
So.
Right after I finish writing section of, and editing all of, a full and complete policy for implementation of OMB Circular A-76 at the National Institutes of Health, check in with me on that, eh?
Hey, I'm just relaxing while basking in the warmth of a big terry bath robe after a long luxurious bath... I have a job interview this afternoon... so I'm .. r-e-l-a-x-i-n-g... good vibes, good stuff.
Ahem, anyway...
My name(s)... see, I was new_beginning when I got here in 1999... stayed that way for about three years, and then Dylan and I came up with a new name that would bring me comfort as I went through my divorce and then remarriage... so Nyneve happened... I know you've read up on her before... but then I'd come back here and people would tell me that I'll always be NB to them, but by then, NurseBetty had arrived and she was NB. (Bored with my story yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) Plus, I go through these dopey moments of thinking I'll never post again and ask to have my log-in disabled. So... finally... I decided to just be who I am, NB, with a second login name NBII. See? Simple! LOL LOL LOL But I still like the name Nyneve, so I kept it for the village.
Okay, that said... <whew>... I promise you... if you wrote your book as a narrative or collection of prose... it would sell. You have the gift, you really do.
Do you remember the Summer of Useful Rocks and Things? I've never forgotten it. People like us see things in a different way, and I think we're not alone...
So J, when you're finished with all-things-necessary... do yourself, your daughter, and all of us a favor... write that book.
The End. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
PS: I love your sig line... always makes me smile... and I can see those clouds in a perfect sky... as if God Himself reached down and swept them away... just whispy bits left... floating... away...
Can you pronounce this for me? It irritates the heck out of me, not knowing how I am supposed to say something...even if it is only in my head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Okay. Time to stretch the writing wings a little. Because I need to. And yes, SS, I do understand. But that's not what I'm going to talk about today. I'm going to talk about, what else? Playing in the park.
Today the sky was just blue. Not any other color, just blue. You know the shade of blue. If you were in the northeastern United States on 9/11, that shade of intense, amazing, brilliant blue will never seem quite so pure again. And yet, when you see it, you still revel in it. In spite of the memories.
Today's blue, though, wasn't broken by the mature green of late summer tree leaves, no. Today the blue was punctured by the brilliant blinding white of the most impressive swath of dogwood blossoms I have seen in all the years I've lived here. They're a carpet of white on the trees, interspersed in places with the pink dogwoods and crabapples. It's a stunning display.
I took pictures of it. Like the whisps of clouds were swept all the way down to earth and got caught in the trees, never to bother the sun and the sky again, but still left to bless us with the beauty of their colors.
We walked out into that glory this morning, DD and I. For the first time, she didn't want to ride in her stroller. Sometimes I make her walk anyway, of course. But today she just slipped her hand into mine and we set off.
We had packed a breakfast -- cereal and a banana, hot chocolate for her and a cup of coffee for me. We had the camera and my purse and my cell phone, and I've gotten good enough at this that it all fit into one relatively lightly packed shoulder bag. Guess I've been practicing.
We walked down our street and we paused at the amazing yard where so much blooms this time of year. "Those are azaleas, sweetie. See the bright pink and purple?" Perhaps 50 of them. "And those over there are tulips," hundreds of them, "and these small purple and yellow and white flowers," more hundreds, "are pansies." All packed into a 1/10 acre lot. There is no grass in that yard -- it's all flowers, and it is stunning. She's seen it before, and for her it's normal. For me, it's a wonder.
We walked on, and she switched to my other hand so that she could walk on the "balance beam" -- the curb. We walked up the hill to the busy street, and she noticed that our shadows came with us every step of the way. She found out that it's hard to step on your own shadow, but easy to step on your Mama's shadow. I just watched us walk along, hand in hand. Her hair is longer, relatively speaking, than mine. And yet both of us had hair blowing in the breeze and both of us were laughing as we walked.
As we got up to the busy street, she wanted to be carried. And something made us laugh, I don't remember what anymore. We laughed all the way down the block, and I saw people looking at us from our cars. They were wishing they were out in the warm sunshine of this beautiful day, and not stuck in their cars on the way to boring meetings in their dark gray and navy blue suits. Some days, folks, you should hold your meetings on the playground. It would do the world some good.
We were the first ones at the playground. The whole place was ours. First we played on the swings and I taught DD the ancient art of the "underduck." I was wearing a yellow t-shirt and she asked, entirely reasonable, "Is it because of your shirt? Are you a duck?"
When I was done chuckling, I explained that no, it didn't matter what shirt I was wearing -- it was because I went under the swing and had to duck when I did it. She decided that was okay and that underducks are one of the better things in life. Particularly the version where I start in front of her and push her backwards.
Then we set up our picnic in the little playhouse next to the monkey bars and slides. She didn’t want to sit still to eat, so she would come and get a bite or two and then run off again. I sat and watched. First she walked all the edges of the playground – her “balance beams.” Then she jumped off the high part (don’t panic, J, don’t panic, she’s old enough for this…) to walk around the part with the swings. And then she climbed up to the top of the monkey bars and went down the biggest tube slide and then turned around and walked back up and slid back down a few times. Back for a bite now and again throughout all of it.
Eventually she wanted me to come along and I set down my coffee to climb up the bars and crawl through the tubes and slide down the big slide. It’s a good thing I have a toddler so that I can do these things without feeling too ridiculous. Though really, the swings have always been what I like best.
We tossed a ball we’d brought along, we talked to a little boy (he said he was two) who showed up by himself, and eventually his two brothers who were supposed to be watching him trailed along and played with him for a little while. He had a cat on his t-shirt. “Kitty!” he said. “Rrrr!!” I agreed. Yes, Quinn (for that was his name), it’s quite a kitty. Then he turned and began to climb up the tall ladder on his way to the big tube slide. On the back of his t-shirt it said, “bad,” and I had to laugh. Bad kitty indeed.
Quinn got to go down the slides and try climbing the hardest of the ways up (even his brothers decided it wasn’t wise when they were almost to the top) before they all raced off to find their mom and go to the bookstore. I hope their mom is calmer than I am. They look like wonderful boys – who will probably frighten her absolutely to death before they’re done.
We played for a long time, never bothering to look at the time. And yet I was quite aware of how long it had been since 7:30am. Not everyone is at the park this morning. Not everyone is getting to enjoy this beautiful day. I could feel the disconnect, could feel myself aching for HoFS, could feel the spot where he’s supposed to be in my heart – and him not being there.
Eventually, two hours after 7:30, I called HoFS’ phone. His dad answered, as I’d hoped he would. HoFS had just come out of surgery, two hours after going in. They’d removed something from the front of his knee, and a “fist-sized” cyst from the back of his knee. The surgeon said it had gone well, HoFS was still asleep in the recovery room. As DD shrieked at me to climb up the inside of the tube slide (not gonna happen, sorry), HoFS’ dad promised to have HoFS call me as soon as he was awake enough to do it.
I thanked him profusely, even as I was embarrassed at the insistent little voice of my daughter, still sure that Mama can do anything – even climb up the inside of a slide that’s her size, not mine. We managed, though it was a moment of remembering, again, how many different directions my head and heart are pulled in sometimes.
We finished our morning at the park in time to meet the man who came to give us an estimate on painting the house. We walked home, DD riding on my shoulders and me carrying our bag, laughing and chatting about the neighborhood. Those people have pretty flowers. There’s a cat. These people are building a new porch. We’ve walked this way many times before. We like to walk together. Someday, maybe, DD will remind me of those walks. Or she won’t, because they’re so much part of who she is that she won’t think to talk about them. Either way is okay with me.
Through the laughter and the sunshine and the chatter, too, there was relief. HoFS is okay, even though he’s far away and I can’t talk to him yet. Soon. Soon I’ll get to talk to him and reconnect. Soon I’ll see him and touch him again. Soon.
--------------------------------------
Note: I wrote this last night, and it happened yesterday. HoFS is recovering nicely from his surgery, though it's clear this is a much bigger deal than the carpal tunnel surgeries were.
Thanks to Cerri, J, HoFS, and soulloss (who made me like cabbage) for having me today. Forgive me if I was surly or bashful. It wasn't the company.
GC
you didn't like cabbage?!?!?!
you ate the cabbage?!?!?
when did I miss Grey eating my cooking?!?!?
I tell ya, I can' look away for a minute....I miss everything....
except for the eyebrow thing....J was right on about that....and she ws right...
but it's ok...
you were still really really really nice to meet....especially after 'reading' you for the lonnnnnnngest time....
and meeting J and cerri....whew....
don't get me started....
but I'm so glad you liked the cabbage....it's actually a Thai recipe...the hoisin and sesame oil makes all the difference....otherwise, cabbage =shudder....
now I have to go catch up on the rest of the campfire...i only got as far as this page....
Can you pronounce this for me? It irritates the heck out of me, not knowing how I am supposed to say something...even if it is only in my head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Hi weaver, and Happy (rainy) Sunday!
Nyneve is tricky to say... I've heard it two ways, but I'll tell you how I say it in my head...
First way: Ne-nev ("eh" sound - not the Canadian "eh" which sounds like "aye" which is not the pirate "aye", which sounds like "eye". LOL LOL LOL)
Second way: Ni-nev (long I sound, like "eye")
In my head, it's the second way.
JustJ is JustaBeautifulWriter... sigh... I love reading you... it's like... a warm waterfall...
Dylan, your cabbage sounds wonderful. You just can't find it made well around here... or anywhere, for that matter. Guard your gift, my friend!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Dylan, I did see J's pictures <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />... and you're just as I remember... yes, we exchanged pics eons ago... and you don't look a day older... what are you?... 24? You look great! And I thought you looked like you were serving GC, not stealing cake from him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I'll send you an updated pic, Dylan... in fact, maybe I'll get brave and post it... maybe not, though... but maybe... er... maybe not... <shiver, scary moment there where I almost just did it!>...
We got back from OOSP Sa2rday night about 8:30. DS and I were in the truck, and MIL and W were in W's car.
W called from her cell phone about 5 minutes after I walked in2 the house, saying she'd had a sudden dizzy spell and had 2 have MIL grab the steering wheel and pull the car off the freeway. I had 2 get DD 2 take me out there and pick her up, cause MIL can't really drive a stick shift.
We 2k W 2 the emergency room 2 find out what had happened. Thankfully, it wasn't medically serious (like a stroke), just vertigo caused by some inner ear thingy. It scared her witless, though. But it showed us that we need 2 make sure that we get more rest and take breaks on that 8-hour drive home. Sa2rday, we hadn't left until about noon, and we'd done several physically-taxing projects in the morning before we left.
In other news, I'm "sensing" some disconnect still between us these days, and I'm not sure what to make of it. No ILYs still. We get along fine, but we seldom have deep conversations. We also have had some passionate kissing a few times in the last 2ple months. Very nice.
Probably what I'm sensing is a re2rn 2 complacency, and that we're both uncomfortable with that trend (sounds contradictory, doesn't it?: uncomfortable complacency!). So, I'll have 2 find a way 2 break through the barriers somehow.
Do you replace all your "to" "too" "two" "tu" ... manually? Or do you have a piece of code that does a search and replace?
I just can't imagine being that consistent. I am voting for code. ESPECIALLY since my guess is that you would not suffer something as ineffecient as a manual process for something like that.
It is interesting to note that in your signature line, you have not made your typical replacements in the song lyrics.
Which IMHO point much more strongly to the code scenario, as the signature line is a quicky you edit in a different window.
If it helps, we still have times when we "sense some disconnect." Not often, but it happens.
We also (and much thanks to MB) have times when we feel like it's a second honey moon - only better. Better becasue we have this 28 year history, and a family, and also have these strong feelings of love, and togetherness. It's a strong bond, perhaps one of the bonds that helped to set us free. We seldom feel the frustration of wondering if our partner cares - care and concern is communicated daily by both words, and action.
As far as breaking through the barriers......
Don't be afraid to say things to her. Say them with no strings attached. Kind of an experiment.
Things you can ask her - Do you have the kind of a marriage you want to have? Do you still have dreams that haven't come true? What can I do today to increase your happiness?
What would turn this from an ordinary day into a wonderful day (for you?)
And the last one (my secret, dont' tell anyone) - the set up is you are sitting close to her reading the newspaper. "Your horiscope for today is great - it says you will make passionate love to your husband tonight, and love every minute of it." But keep the dead pan look, and after she looks up, say "who writes these things, anyway? They must know us pretty good."
It's fun to watch their reaction over time as we attempt to get closer. That distance is there for a reason, and it's fun to find the walls, and take them down. Kind of like exploring a distant planet - venus if some books are correct.
W had that same dizzy spell last fall. It lasted (on and off) for about 3 days. The Doc said it was common with Hay Feaver, and Colds.
Just because I like you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
1 - Start Microsoft Word
2 - Click "Tools>Macros>Visual Basic Editor"
3 - Look in the left most pane. There should be a tree with an entry in bold that says "Normal"
4 - Right click this and select "Insert" then "Module"
5 - Below this line, bounded by repeated equals signs is some Visual Basic Code. Copy and paste it in the new module window you just opened. Do not include the equal signs lines.
==Start of Code================== Sub toolongese() ' ' toolongese Macro ' This macro replaces all the characters that 2long likes to use a 2 4 ' Selection.Find.ClearFormatting Selection.Find.Replacement.ClearFormatting With Selection.Find .Text = "too" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "to" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "tu" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "two" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "couple" .Replacement.Text = "2ple" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "both" .Replacement.Text = "2th" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
End Sub ==End of Code===================
6 - Close the Visual Basic Editor by clicking the "X" in upper right corner. You should now be back in Word.
7 - Go up to the tool bar line and right click. NOT on a button, but up in the tool bar area next to a button. You should get a list of toolbars and at the very bottome it should say "Customize..." Click that.
8 - You will get a pop-up Titled "Customize" and the center pane titled "Commands" should be active. Scroll down in the "Categories" list (on the left) and look for "Macros". Click that.
9 - In the right pane titled "Commands" one (or more) selections will appear. One of these should end with the "toolongese" from the Visual Basic Code.
10 - Click and HOLD this, dragging it up to an existing toolbar, then let it go.
11 - Once it is placed on a tool bar, right click it and select "Default Style" in the list that pops up. This will get rid of the messy text.
12 - Right click it again and click "Change Button Image" to pick a better picture, or even "Edit Button Image" to draw your own.
13 - Once you are all finished, click the "Close" button on the "Customize" window you opened earlier.
14 - When you exit Word, it will ask if you want to save changes to "Normal.dot". If you say yes, the macro will be available whenever you want (on that computer).
Now, type what you want in Word, click the button, and all of the "too" "to" "tu" and "two" in your text will be replaced by "2".
NCW
(sorry I had to edit, left out the conversion for "both")
Well, I realized just how much she was affected by what Dan had done. She really adored him you know, and when he left he never even said goodbye 2 her...nothing! We had very few close people in our life after my parents died (she was 4), and he was important 2 her.
The island property was a big part of her life 2, she had her fort there and our camper. She and I had spent quite a lot of time there...so she suffered this loss as well.
I had driven 2 the ferry with her one day, 2 get our things out of the camper and she refused 2 get on2 the ferry. She said she didn't want anything from our property and didn't want 2 go. I never attempted 2 go back after that.
So yes, it is sad..and why I will be very, very careful who I allow in2 our life again.
-------------------- It doesnt interest me what planets are squaring your moon... I want 2 know if you have 2uched the centre of your own sorrow if you have been opened by lifes betrayals or have become shrivelled and closed from fear of further pain. ~~Oriah Mountain Dreamer
"I have woven a parachute out of everything broken" ~~William Stafford
LOOK! it even caught "touched" and made it "2uched"
You have 2ld me many times. 2 whit, the feeling is reciprocated. Remember it takes 2 2 tango. 2 bad for the other who don’t quite have the relationship we have.
Un42nately, I think it'll take a lot longer 2 do all that than 2 just k33p on typing 2s' (and 3's and 4's! - I was thinking about replacing e's with 3's and changing my name 2 3long). Besides, I'll still have 2 train msyelf not 2 type 2s in "normal" speach! So, maybe I need the macro that detoolongeses text!
...when my other username, Qfwfq, was T-zero for a while, I tried 2 get in2 the habit of typing 0's in place of all the O's.
OK. Below is the “advanced version.” I have included the “Q” which I believe 2long also replaces, but only when it is a leading “q” in a word such as 2ip, 2ote, or 2een.
Iraq would remain un2uched.
And just 2 make every1 laugh and simply 4 giggles, I added some possible combinations 4 the other obvious variants, like 1 and 4.
So copy and paste the code below, just like my earlier post instructed. (In case it is not in2itive at this point). And enjoy!!!!
NCW
==START OF ADVANCED CODE ============= Sub toolongese() ' ' toolongese Macro ' This macro replaces all the characters that 2long likes to use a 2 4 ' Selection.Find.ClearFormatting Selection.Find.Replacement.ClearFormatting With Selection.Find .Text = "too" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "to" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "tu" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "two" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "couple" .Replacement.Text = "2ple" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "both" .Replacement.Text = "2th" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = " qu" .Replacement.Text = " 2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "for" .Replacement.Text = "4" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "four" .Replacement.Text = "4" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "one" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "won" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "wun" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
It [email]r3p1@c3s[/email] @11 th3 13tt3r “E” with th3 numb3r 3, @11 th3 L’s with th3 numb3r 1, @11 th3 0’s with th3 numb3r 0 @nd just 4 grins I w3nt @h3@d @nd [email]m@d3[/email] @11 th3 @’s 0ut 0f th3 “at” sign.
3v3n th0ugh @ is n0t [email]r3@11y[/email] @ numb3r.
@ppr0v3?
== Start of Advanced Advanced Code ===== Sub toolongese() ' ' toolongese Macro Advanced Version ' This macro replaces all the characters that 2long likes to use a 2 4 ' Selection.Find.ClearFormatting Selection.Find.Replacement.ClearFormatting With Selection.Find .Text = "too" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "to" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "tu" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "two" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "couple" .Replacement.Text = "2ple" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "both" .Replacement.Text = "2th" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = " qu" .Replacement.Text = " 2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "for" .Replacement.Text = "4" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "four" .Replacement.Text = "4" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "one" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "won" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "wun" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "e" .Replacement.Text = "3" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "a" .Replacement.Text = "@" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "l" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "o" .Replacement.Text = "0" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
I'm still looking for the "flash" of light in the sunset, long after I have forgotten what color that flash is supposed to be...green or blue, I forget.
I try to tell of the things I have learned here, but still all I get is that "caught in the headlights" look.
Which reminds me of a poem called "Caught in the Headlights"...but I digress.
And when one starts using phrases like "but I digress", one knows they have been around 2long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Okay Jen (cus I know you like poetry), the poem I was thinking of was not called "Caught in the Headlights", is was this one (below) by William Stafford.
Now some might think this is a sad poem, but I like it...because this is life, and hard decisions.
And then I'll let ya'll get back to your coding and decoding fun.
Traveling Through The Dark
Traveling through the dark I found a deer dead on the edge of the Wilson River road. It is usually best to roll them into the canyon: that road is narrow; to swerve might make more dead.
By glow of the tail-light I stumbled back of the car and stood by the heap, a doe, a recent killing; she had stiffened already, almost cold. I dragged her off; she was large in the belly.
My fingers touching her side brought me the reason-- her side was warm; her fawn lay there waiting, alive, still, never to be born. Beside that mountain road I hesitated.
The car aimed ahead its lowered parking lights; under the hood purred the steady engine. I stood in the glare of the warm exhaust turning red; around our group I could hear the wilderness listen.
I thought hard for us all--my only swerving--, then pushed her over the edge into the river.
===START OF CODE====== Sub toolongese() ' ' toolongese Macro ' This macro replaces all the characters that 2long likes to use a 2 4 ' Selection.Find.ClearFormatting Selection.Find.Replacement.ClearFormatting With Selection.Find .Text = "too" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "to" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "tu" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "two" .Replacement.Text = "2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "couple" .Replacement.Text = "2ple" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "both" .Replacement.Text = "2th" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = " qu" .Replacement.Text = " 2" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "for" .Replacement.Text = "4" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "four" .Replacement.Text = "4" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "one" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "won" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "wun" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "e" .Replacement.Text = "3" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "a" .Replacement.Text = "@" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "l" .Replacement.Text = "1" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "o" .Replacement.Text = "0" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "s" .Replacement.Text = "5" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "i" .Replacement.Text = "!" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
Selection.Find.Execute Replace:=wdReplaceAll
With Selection.Find .Text = "t" .Replacement.Text = "+" .Forward = True .Wrap = wdFindContinue End With
No offense. Ya'll seem really smart and all... and I have my own brand of intelligence, to be sure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, but uh... it's non-verbal. Yeeeah. That's right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
NBII, numbers = barf for me too. They always have. I can't remember phone numbers or any sort of numbers - excel saved my life because it's so darn clever at doing all that sort of stuff for itself.
Thank god for Tonka and sand, eh Dylan?... reminds me... DD#2's finace (both of my daughter's are engaged! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) had his birthday last month and he'd just graduated EMT school... we found him a Tonka Ambulance! I wanted to play with it!!
Oh yeah, Jen... I remember when I first learned Lotus123... how it added up those columns... oh yeah... bliss! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have a date this weekend with someone I met on the dating site. We have been phoning and emailing for awhile now...and this is the big meeting face to face.
He is coming from Wisconsin and getting a motel here for the weekend. So Friday night we are going to the comedy club and then Saturday up to Whitefish Bay to the shipwreck museum, the bird observatory and probably to the falls to the cool little micro-brewery restaurant up there.
I am really looking forward to meeting him finally.
Can everybody put some positive vibes out there in my direction? I need strength to make good choices this weekend and not have my eyes closed by that tricky chemistry stuff...emailing and phoning gives people a false sense of intimacy before they even meet, so I need to be vigilant about this and make sure this proceeds very slowlee.
Sending you positive vibes and a chastity belt (just in case that chemistry get you revved up)... I'll hide the key under a rock in your front yard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Seriously, your date plans sound wonderful... have lots of fun, good food, and great conversation... and maybe a kiss or two! (No eating his face off!)
Do you know me? LOL I did email him and say I hope, hope, hope that there is no big chemistry between us, just calm, peaceful, mutual admiration...he thinks I am a nut so I can say whatever I want.
Oh weaver, honey, all I can say is this: For a little over two months, my (now)H and I talked on the phone (for like, 3 hours a night - the phone bills! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> )... and emailed... and then it was time to meet face-to-face... and, um... well, let's just say that the sparks flew from the moment our eyes met... he held out his hand... I took it... and we've never let go. (Insert barf icon here, I know)...
Weaver, I have some advice for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Ready, don't shave your legs, that will keep you honest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Best of luck to you. Your date sounds great, in fact what you think about girls, 5'6, 120 lbs, Indian, SUPER funny, I'm just saying, maybe if this guy doesn't work out, you and I can hook up. Nothing better than the falls and a micro-brew. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I would set you up, but all the guys I know are my age, and you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to old for them.
nb, I didn't know you and your H met that way...that is beautiful about the hand holding!
KY, Are ya drinking your breakfast this morning, or what? A couple bloody mary's to dip your toast in?
I still get carded jelly...if that tells you anything about my looks.
Oh and you are never going to believe this, but I found out that my mother (who was French Canadian) was of Ottawa descent.
Yep, that's right but back then when they came over to the states it was not a good thing to be Indian.
Anyway, now I know why that spell I cast over on the island took so well...I had some help from my ancestors! The island was always inhabitied by Indians until just recently, and much of it is still sacred ground.
"made by mattel" is there in place of nibblets....
and ever since Barbie kicked ken to the curb in that car commercial, she's single and free game as far as GI Joe knows...
and.....he won't get fresh....he's very respectful...
And thus the REAL reason Kimmy's Barbie buried her cousin's GI Joe in the sandbox comes to light. The lack of nibblets could no longer be overcome in the marriage, so she buried him and collected his insurance money...b/c she made certain the body (parts) were never found.
Weaver, I have some advice for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Ready, don't shave your legs, that will keep you honest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Best of luck to you. Your date sounds great, in fact what you think about girls, 5'6, 120 lbs, Indian, SUPER funny, I'm just saying, maybe if this guy doesn't work out, you and I can hook up. Nothing better than the falls and a micro-brew. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I would set you up, but all the guys I know are my age, and you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to old for them.
Veaver, Do not talk about your island. You know it upsets me. Now, the rest of you, get back to Idiotville. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Weaver - great attitude with the island, that's why you are my favorite over the bridge person ever. (trying to be PC)
GC - sorry when I jump on your thread I always say hello, I forgot my manners for a second. Hello, and has any lucky lady snatched you up yet??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for the shout Jelly. No, nobody's snatched me. If things don't turn around soon I'm gonna start to take it personally.
I'm on the right track, just haven't quiiiiite managed any good possibilities recently.
I'll get it together. There's a lot going on this coming weekend, and if nothing comes of it I'm going to take drastic measures. I'm going to start doing solo gigs at coffee shops.
Geez. Go away for a week and the place goes loony. There's the boys over there being geeky (nice code, NCW!!), and then there's the girls over here being, uh, girly.
I used to think I should be one of the boys and do all that geeky code stuff. Then I tried it and found out that it wasn't any fun for me. (Bad environmental factors, mostly. It's sad, too, 'cause I still have hankerings to do stuff in spherical coordinates sometimes.)
So I'm gonna wander over here with the girls instead. Tsk tsk.
Soulloss, NB, you are both too smart to be scared by boys playing with their toys. DO not be afraid of NCW's toys. They are, I guarantee, no worse than Bionicles. (Boys, you may now have a discussion about how cool Legos are.)
Weaver, you have a fantastic attitude and someday I hope you buy another island. This time, buy it on the East Coast. Da UP is just too darned cold for me anymore. I do love the thought of you hooking up with a guy from GB, though. Ask him if he knows anyone from Manitowoc. I betcha there's people in common there somewhere.
TT, KY, & co? You know the rules, now. If you're not free and available, no making passes at her. And no trying to get dates with our Weaver without going through the background checks.
For all: I was away for the last few days because HoFS developed Deep Vein Thrombosis (a clot in one of the major veins of the leg) after his surgery. Clots are extremely painful and quite dangerous, and it's been a difficult few days. After many trips to the doctor (he should've been admitted to the hospital, but somehow they decided to leave him on the loose because I was there to give him his injections; talk about crazy...), he's almost stable on the blood-thinners that he's on, which will mean no more injections, just pills. He's at work for a couple of hours today for the first time in more than a week, and is taking it easy.
A couple of good things in all this: His colleagues and family are working hard to support him. This builds ties like nothing else does.
I finally understand the good that working does HoFS. This is good because it means that I can encourage him to work healthy, rather than encouraging him to not work and instead take care of himself. He's one of those who takes care of himself BY working. Must remember that. As long as it's balanced, it's good.
Since standing or sitting still for very long causes extreme pain, HoFS has to keep moving. I figure that means he'll get more exercise than he usually does.
And, of course, I got to spend three days with him that I would not have otherwise spent. Though I would prefer that he be healthy, I know that over the long haul, there are going to be healthy times and sick times, and it's important to be there for each other during all of them.
I had a good time while I was there. I worked some, spent time with HoFS, spent an evening with his kids, did some yard work (good for my soul the way work is good for HoFS). If I'd been able to have DD there and do all that stuff, it would have been wonderful.
Not that I think that anyone would notice - but I took a little break.
The D was final March 29. I took the ring off a week or so ago. It feels good to let go of the BS. The fire IS out. (somebody pissed on it for two years......)
I have not kept up with MB. I want to give back - but have been busy. God will show me the opportunities.
FAR, we all noticed you took a break. For me I try not to mention the ones who are missing, because I don't want to lure them back in if they are in need of a break. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
JJ, I am glad H has you, and you he. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> and I will ask if GB has any friends in Manitowoc...it would be cool to have mutual friens somewhere so we can all hook up sometime.
As for my weekend...I think I dreamed him up, I think I died and went to heaven and I think this one is going to rock my world! The weekend was awsome, it couldn't have turned out more perfect. We got maybe 7 hours sleep total for the entire weekend. Sat night we were actually parked in a parking lot by the Locks at 3:30 in the morning, with Willie Nelson's "Angel" blasting out of his truck stereo while we slow danced. The whole weekend was just unbelievable...I never laughed so much in my life. He is the kind of guy where everwhere we went he attracted new friends and had everyone in stitchs. He's like a magnet, a happy, sweet, crazy, wild magnet.
Anyway, I am going to take a few months away from this joint, as I have a couple of rentals and some business I have been ignoring for far too long. But I will be thinking of each and everyone of you and sending lots of positive energy your way.
Soulloss, NB, you are both too smart to be scared by boys playing with their toys. DO not be afraid of NCW's toys. They are, I guarantee, no worse than Bionicles. (Boys, you may now have a discussion about how cool Legos are.)
Legos are cool!!!
What do you think we used to make the scaled down model of our trebuchet? Worked too.
weaver ~~ I'm so happy for you!!! I don't know that we can wait for Fall to hear your romance reports, but we'll try... ((((weaver)))) Good luck with all that you have to do... sounds busy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
ncwalker ~~ This: You can't spell "fun" without d-a-n-g-e-r literally made me LOL, which honest-to-goodness, I haven't done like this in a long, long time!
FAR, Nice to see you! I was reading but not posting much when you were busily posting your heart out...
This next comment is for people who enjoy cleaning and such... today is Spring Cleaning Day... brought on by the box I receieved in the mail this morning... from a friend (I've had since Jr. High/Middle School)... who now lives in France. She was sending a book, you see, and just couldn't send it all alone in the box, so she sent me some cool stuff for taking care of my home... from finger towels to candles to ... of all things... sponges scented with natural lemon... so, I'm off to clean today... may be back later (I'll need a BREAK, won't I?)...
{{FAR}} If you look back on this thread I have been trying to find your email addy cuz I remembered your D date (my bday). I even did a call out for you. I was hoping you just took a break from here. phew..glad I don't have to worry. How do you feel? How are the kids?
Wait! Weaver, you can't go and let a new romance blossom and leave here at the same time!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! You have my addy? killnme2004-mb@yahoo.com
Please pass a brew someone. I need to warm my toes....
(stretching)
Ah. Y'all are like legwarmers. I might not get seen in public with you (not yet), but you're cozy, soft, and warm nonetheless.
- Kimmy
"Pour me another glass of that sweet burgundy. Maybe that will help to ease the pain Burgundy I guess you're my only friend. Sweet Burgundy." -Tommy Bolin, "Sweet Burgundy"
...only that's a "winter song", and it hasn't been winter in Texas for YEARS!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It snowed Christmas Eve and Christmas Day in Rockport, TX (on the coast) in 2004. I know, because I walked out on my porch to look at the ocean and stepped in some cold, white, wet stuff and it didn't come from any sea gull's butt, that's fer certain!
So, we did have winter...and it lasted approximately 12 hours!
But I'm glad to be living in SAT again. No more sweeping sand up before bed every night anymore... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I know what you mean. We were just staying at a family beach house. For the life of me I can't remember what street it was on, but it was within walking distance of this little beach restaurant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I know what you mean. We were just staying at a family beach house. For the life of me I can't remember what street it was on, but it was within walking distance of this little beach restaurant. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Shells? (the name of the restaurant) Or was it ON the beach?
Like Mr. Roger's sweater and sneakers........that's us!
Never in my life would I have thought of you in connection with Mr. Rogers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Like Mr. Roger's sweater and sneakers........that's us!
Never in my life would I have thought of you in connection with Mr. Rogers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SS
That's cos I'm TOO CUTE for color TV! He's on color TV...so not quite cute enuf!
Is the fire lit yet? Who's on wood detail, anyway?
Just a drive-by. Busy today.
NCW, DS and I built a portable trebuche a few months ago. Used it to lob h2o ballons at other scout patrols during a campmout. Scattered their campfire real good it did. Was not that big but it could loft accuratly over 100 yds. We are thinking of taking it to the next paintball game.
Weaver, you can't go. Who will laugh at my lame jokes? Have fun though.
Waait.... how long from room temp. to pleasing in the freezer?
Of course the trouble with that route being you get impatient, open a warm one, then another, and soon the ones you put in the fridge are fine, but by then you have drunk enough to have forgotten the one in the freezer which explodes.
Waait.... how long from room temp. to pleasing in the freezer?
Of course the trouble with that route being you get impatient, open a warm one, then another, and soon the ones you put in the fridge are fine, but by then you have drunk enough to have forgotten the one in the freezer which explodes.
Not that it's ever happened to me.
GC
Are you SURE we're not related?
I love beer slushies.
Approx. 15 min in MY freezer (I put it in the ice cube bin), and my double-e-r is usually a beer slurpee enuf NOT to try to escape the bottle on it's own, but with loverly ice crystals bobbing about between the bubbles....
SS - brought brownies to work this morning. They are still slightly warm. They have chocolate chips in them and chocolate/fudgy creamy swirly-doos on top.
I can't eat it tho....my tum is messed up.
I'm blaming eating right and exercise.......
My body must be in shock or something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Since becoming an exercise addict I don't enjoy ice cream. It's sick and wrong. Maybe just a phase.
I had a good friend who ran ......... about 6 marathons a year. Once I asked him how, and why he started running.
He laughed and said "I started running so I could eat more ice cream without gaining weight."
I must have looked unbeliving - he said that was the real reason. He's about 55, and only runs one or two marathons a year these days. Says he still eats ice cream.
Kimmy, as much as I like good food, I don't snack much - and never in the morning. Thanks though, maybe later.
Now - as for cliques...... I admit I was baiting Weaver, to see if she would come back and let me say good bye.
Please forgive me, there was never any imformation to pass on. Probably it was an abuse of Grayclouds campfire thread, and I appoligize to everyone - especially to Weaver, and Graycloud.
Gray, you sound better in lots of ways. You still seem to have doubts though. Doubts beyone the normal ones that keep us humble and learning.
If God is real, he will be helping you no matter if you know he is there or not. Often small things. Usually seems like coincidence.
I continue to think about you, though I don't worry nearly as much as I once did. You really are a great person in many ways. Humility is one of the signs of that. Pleae forgive me for drawing attention to it, I know it's not what you would choose.
Life is a struggle, we have to take joy from it despite the pains. It looks like you are beginning to find that again. I hope so. Thanks for your humor, and your good example. I have learned much from you about how to react in the face of adversity.
It's where you are now, that lets you be able to say that.
Whenever we climb the mountain, we forget the climb when we stand on the peak. The sweat evaporates.
I do agree that the good is more than the bad. The joy, more than the sorrow.
God said (and this quote is from memory, not exact) "By the sweat of thy face thou shalt earn thy bread all the days of thy life."
I struggle, but it's a good struggle, and rewarding. It results in personal growth, and that "standing on the peak" feeling is here more and more.
You have your family with you, and that is enough for you. Graycloud doesn't have that, and he's not a mother. It's............ it's different for men, even with family close. I don't know if I can explain it.
I do agree with you in spirit - life is a joy in so many ways. I think when we reach the end, it will be the victories, not the struggles that we will remember.
I know it's a great gift to know so many wonderful people.
2Long....have I told you today that you are too cute for color tv?
We should form a club...
Oh, wait! We have....it's called GC's Campfire.........
LOL!
SS - Maybe it's the word "struggle"....it's work, yeah...and it's sucky work sometimes....sometimes the work sucks so hard I'm afraid I'm one big hickey....but it's all work....rewarding/sucky/plodding/contented work.....
>It's............ it's different for men, even with family close
men are different....weirdly wonderfully different.....GC's day is coming....his rewards are coming....I KNOW it.
Struggles (not addressing anyone by name, mind you):
It wasn't 2 many months ago that I 4mulated a deadline in my cranium that went like this:
My W is taking her class 2 OOSP next month for the first time sanctioned by the college (she gets paid, they get credit).
I'm going 2 my annual pilgrimage 2 my telescope makers' thingy Memorial weekend.
My scheming cranium said 2 me (or maybe it was the Jiminy Cricket in the red suit with the horns?): "If she makes an excuse not 2 go 2 your thingy, you should say you're not going 2 OOSP anymore!"
Over the weekend, as she was looking at her busy schedule preparing for OOSP, she said "Looks like I won't have time 2 go 2 your thingy this year". 2which I replied: "Okay, I understand. Looks like the kids will be busy 2, so I'll be on my own this time."
That was it. I mulled over my Jiminy Cricket-imposed deadline for a few hours after that, but decided it's not anything 2 be concerned about.
Sort of a paraphrase of Dr. Seuss' "Happy Birthday 2 You" (my all-time favorite, and I'm a HUGE fan).
Followed by: "When it ends, you're much happier, richer and fatter, and the Bird flies you home on a very soft platter." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
This is a long update. I posted the first part over on the SYMC thread about HoFS. Today's update hasn't been posted there yet because I can't get there from where I am right now. Sigh.
I'd like to have some of that beer and comfort now. Sneakers and sweaters is about right.
I spoke to HoFS a little while ago. He had just come from another visit to the doctor. He has a small hole in the incision in the back of his leg. You remember the one – the one that’s a six-inch long “S” shape. It’s been seeping blood for the past few days. Not gushing, but not stopping either. A few tablespoons of blood, perhaps, over three days.
Under the surface, there’s something called a hematoma. That’s where blood has collected, probably from a broken blood vessel, in a pool like a giant blood blister. It’s turning his skin yellow and red, and there’s a lump there under the skin where it has pooled.
Then there are the blood thinners. His dosage is not quite high enough yet, so they’ve increased it a bit.
And there’s the question of his overall blood levels and status, because he’s been bleeding so much. He tells me that his calf is hard and red and the parts that aren’t red are yellow – the color of bruises.
His general practitioner, whom HoFS saw today, is not terribly worried about all this. He told him to see his surgeon about the bleeding and the hematoma, and put dressings on it that need to be changed each day. And yet here is a man who is bleeding and who is on blood thinners and who is not getting better. I’m worried about all this, even if his doctor is not.
When I was there, I noticed a spot that was more swollen than the rest. I eventually decided that it was just the overall swelling of his leg, rather than something different. How do you tell one bit of swelling from another? How do you distinguish swelling from blood that’s not getting back to the heart because of a clot, versus from blood that’s not getting back to the heart because it has wandered out of a blood vessel and gone elsewhere, versus from fluids that are swelling into a limb because of surgery and pain and fluid retention? I wish there were a doctor actually paying attention to all of this. I’m worried that without someone paying attention to the whole man and giving integrated health care, they’ll miss something.
This morning HoFS said to me that he hadn’t done something that relates to him working from home because he thought they might just put him in the hospital today. It wasn’t until then that I really understood that something was significantly different from when I left on Thursday. Oh, he’d told me about each of the things he saw, but I wasn’t putting it together into a whole picture, and didn’t really do it completely until he saw the doctor. It’s frustrating, not being able to see or touch him, not being able to see for myself how he is.
When I did finally understand, I shut down and couldn’t deal with it. I got off the phone with him and took DD, who was waiting somewhat impatiently, to the swimming pool. She was very happy to finally climb in the water, and for half an hour or more, I ignored all of reality except for me, her, and the water. We had fun. She kicked her feet and blew bubbles and put her ears in the water and pulled with her arms. And she shrieked and laughed, squealed and giggled. Though I’ve told her that HoFS is sick and isn’t getting better yet, she is not affected by the news the way an adult is. She listens, she accepts, and then she goes on.
She feels, I suspect, no sense of responsibility, no sense that she should be doing something to make it better. Inadequacy, this kind anyway, is a very grownup experience. Oh, we probably all felt it when we were young. But somehow, it still seems that when you’re 3 years old, it’s not your main concern.
After that hour of mental holiday, I was finally able to turn back to thinking about HoFS and his situation. He was at the doctor by then, and so we did other things while I waited to hear. We took a shower and got the chlorine out of our hair, then I got dressed in the most relaxed fashion I have in some time while DD lay on the bath mat under a towel. She sucked her thumb the entire time, unusual for her. Then we watched some TV and I checked my e-mail and worked for a while. It was something on HBO Family, a channel I’ve never seen before.
(Did I mention that I’ve been on a short vacation with my parents and sister this weekend? Hot Springs, Arkansas, where my mom grew up.)
First there was a reading of The Nightmare in My Closet, and then kids talking about dreams. There was a reading of Goodnight Moon and then a rendition of Hush Little Baby. Very much like our bedtime routine, actually, and DD curled up on the bed, still naked, and sucked her thumb while she watched it. I think if we had been able to stay there, she would have fallen asleep.
But we couldn’t stay just then – I got her dressed and then we headed for the airport. We saw Santa one more time when we went into the lobby. Santa? Oh yeah. Santa stopped by our table last night at dinner. He was wearing jeans and a baseball cap, and might’ve had a Harley t-shirt on. He asked me, very politely, whether he could give DD this picture of himself? And there was a picture of him and Mrs. Claus, dressed for the holiday season. I looked up at this man who did indeed have eyes that twinkled like Santa’s, and I chuckled. “Sure,” I said. “Thank you.”
It’s a risk for me to do something like that. DD is Jewish and my family celebrates a secular Christmas each year. My ex is quite threatened by Santa and worries that he will somehow seduce her away from her path as a good Jewish girl. If we were still together, I might very well cave to her desire that Santa not be a part of this little girl’s Christmas experiences. But we’re not together, and there’s no way that it will work in my family for the youngest child – in fact, the only child – be the only one excluded from our family’s celebration of the magical parts of Christmas. In my family, everyone under the roof receives a gift from Santa, even if it is only the bits of chocolate and doodads that arrive in the stocking.
So this last year was the most recent of the ongoing battles about how Santa and DD will interact. We came to something that I think is workable, or at least balanced, in that it pissed off my mom and my ex about equally. *sigh*
In any case, here it is Beltane. So clearly it’s time to have Santa stop by in the teeny bopper café in the airport Holiday Inn in Little Rock, Arkansas.
So all this, or some of it, runs through my head in the pause between looking at this man and says, “Sure, thanks!”
And so he hands the picture to my daughter and then I see the words on the back. I should’ve figured it, don’t know why I didn’t. “Jesus” in big letters, and “WWJD?” and “John 3:16” and something from Revelations, though I don’t recall the verse. And then there was silence and pained looks around the table as my parents and I acknowledged that this was not something my daughter – their granddaughter – should have. And yet how to make this as small an influence on her as possible? Taking it out of her hands right then wouldn’t work, so it was left alone until later.
We saw Santa several more times. When DD and I went down to breakfast before going to the pool, he and Mrs. Claus and another man – maybe one of the elves? – were sitting there having breakfast. He started to give DD another picture and I smiled and said no thanks, she’d gotten one last night. So instead he offered peppermints. DD shied away, which I was glad to see, and Santa handed the candies to me instead. We went on towards the breakfast buffet, and after a few seconds DD asked me, “Mama, why did Santa come to lunch?”
I grinned at that and said I didn’t know, but she could ask him if she wanted. She decided she didn’t want to. When they left the dining room, DD and I were still eating our breakfast. In fact, we were sucking on the mints he’d given us while I finished my coffee. He stopped and handed DD an angel drawing on thick paper, something that she could color if she wanted to.
The last time we saw him was when we went down to the lobby, remember? After all the stress of the morning, and more to come in the afternoon, there was Santa, pleased as punch to see that DD was taking her dolly for a walk. We probably didn’t match at all, DD and I. I was in jeans and a t-shirt with a blazer over it. I could have gone into meetings at most workplaces looking like that. DD was in white shorts and a hot pink t-shirt, carrying a dolly. She was not dressed for the workplace. And yet this is how we go around, me in professional or business casual attire, her in summer kid’s clothes.
I’m sitting on the plane right now, 35,000 feet above Tennesee. She’s sound asleep with her head on my lap, covered up by that same jacket. I know how to mix and balance this much of my life. Her, me, my work, SYMC – that’s a balance I’ve been managing for three years, and I’m comfortable with it.
But the balance is off right now. Badly so, and I can feel it dragging on me. There’s more to my life now than her, me, my work, and SYMC. There’s HoFS. HoFS who is in Ohio by himself, with no family but his ex and his boys close by. I went last week in the middle of the week, and I’m glad I went. It also showed me where the limits of my personal system are. I could do it – barely – because a bunch of folks including my work and my ex were flexible and willing to help out. And I still got stressed by the things I hadn’t done in the few short hours I was home between trips, and even more by having gone three days without seeing DD. Three days is too long for a regular thing, and the next time I have a few days free isn’t until mid-May. I’m already planning to go to Ohio then, and will go when she’s with me Memorial Day weekend as well.
But that leaves a lot of time. And back at the beginning of this message I told you what I learned while I was in the airport. A hematoma, bleeding into the calf, seeping at the incision, blood thinners, and medical care that doesn’t feel solid to me. My system is at its capacity. I can’t leave DD for longer than I already have without negatively affecting her – and I can’t leave my home and my work without starting to hurt my own life as well.
On Saturday night my parents went to a party that was part of my mom’s reunion. That left me with DD and my sister. My sister is nearly 36 years old. She’s mentally handicapped and slightly physically handicapped as well. Her speech is nowhere near as clear as DD’s language, and her ability to grasp concepts is behind DD’s as well. I’d put her where DD was maybe six months ago. A permanent toddler.
Before they went down to their party, my parents were talking about my dad’s bad back. A couple weeks ago he picked up a 100-pound planter at their condominium and wrenched his back in the process. So he was hobbling around.
Dinner with just the two of them was something of an adventure. My parents, not thinking very carefully, sent us down to the fancy dining room in the hotel where we were staying. I almost turned around and went elsewhere, but didn’t. By the end of the meal, DD had tossed her shrimp across the table, tried to yank the whole table cloth off of the table, spat in the soup, and thrown a screaming tantrum. My sister was much better behaved. She may have the intellect of a toddler, but emotionally she’s much more mature. There were several times when she was the one who got up with DD and walked around with her.
Still, I wondered how I would survive if I had to deal with both of them. And then I recalled my dad, remembered that he’s laid up as well. Another one that’s not fully able to participate. And my mom’s back, with its bone spur and weird spinal curvature, means she hasn’t been able to be fully active since I was DD’s age. She’s adjusted very well and can do lots of things, but it’s always there.
My brothers had chosen not to participate in the family craziness and more and more, that seems to be their choice about family things. It’s too much emotional stress for them to handle, it seems.
And then there’s HoFS, still at home in Ohio, still seeping blood and trying not to move and trying not to worry me with the level of “this isn’t going right” that he was feeling, but now I know it.
Everywhere I turn, I see people who need some level of caregiving. It hit me several times this weekend.
And again it hit me on the plane, when HoFS sent me a few more texts. On the phone with his brother, figuring out when he could come out. He’ll be in Ohio for a night and will stay over on Wednesday. HoFS’ parents had offered to come, but some medical stuff of HoFS’ dad’s is preventing them. And HoFS’ kids are pretty much out of patience with HoFS’ inability to do things for himself.
So where is the caregiving going to come from? How do we manage like this?
Somewhere in all this, I started feeling pretty darned overwhelmed. I know that there are services that can handle many of the things that need to be handled. That cleaning and cooking service Dylan mentioned is starting to sound more and more important.
I know that I could care for all of the people who currently need it.
I know, too, that I can earn a good living and keep up my own household.
And I know that I can’t do both. No matter how much I want to, there is no physical way to be in all the places I need to be in, there is not time in the day to make it all happen. And I don’t have the emotional, financial, or physical reserves to bounce back and forth between them like a ping pong ball. I found my limits, at least for right now, already.
I love HoFS very, very much. And it’s the worst kind of powerless and inadequate to be unable to help him right now. I haven’t even mentioned the fact that our babysitter gave notice last week while I was in Ohio and we don’t have a replacement, nor have I mentioned the discussions my attorney is having with my ex’s attorney about DD’s schedule.
And it’s a darned good thing that things are quiet at work, because that means that I can work in bits and pieces of hours spread out over the course of several days and still not miss that many hours of work. I only had to take 22 hours of leave in the month of April.
Only.
And yet I know that I can’t do that in May, nor in June. In July I’m supposed to already have plans for trips.
And I haven’t talked about the bruises on my shoulders from carrying bags and DD at the same time. I haven’t talked about the juggling that’s just part of the background of my life. I used to long for someone to help with some of those things. I wanted my family back, my structure of stability and support that made life so much easier to figure out. I don’t long for my ex anymore. I wish her and her new husband well.
But I wish that I had that level of support in my life, and even more than that. This virtual community of ours is wonderful and I’m glad it’s here. And it has some real limitations. I wish I knew how to change that.
And now it’s another day and there’s been another trip to see another doctor. This one prescribed an antibiotic “just in case,” and strongly recommended that HoFS not travel. “Well… you could. But I’d really hate for this incision to open up on you while you’re up there.” Uh, yeah, okay, got it. He’s also under orders to keep his leg as still as he can, and particularly to avoid bending his knee. The surgeon says it’s probably going to take six weeks to get through this particular part.
Whoever said that about taking up a collection for some help for HoFS? Uh, I’m thinking it might be time.
Here’s the theory of what’s going on. The cyst that he had on the back of his knee apparently created pathways for the blood to flow. In other words, it opened up spaces between his muscles and stuff. Then he had the clot, and thus blood thinners, and that is probably what allowed the internal blood vessel to open up and start bleeding. The timing of when things happened would seem to indicate that that’s how it went, anyway. There is no particular action that’s needed – it’s something that takes time to heal, is all, and will be slowed down by the blood thinners that he has in his system.
So. He won’t be coming to visit me anytime soon. And I miss him a lot. It’s kind of an all-over body ache that never quite goes away no matter how busy I am with other things. Somewhere deep down inside of me, there is someone throwing one heck of a tantrum about not getting to be held in his arms. Well, maybe she’s not throwing a tantrum. Maybe she’s just curled up in a ball. Hard to say sometimes.
Not for the same reasons. Not doing the same things, but we have been there, and we understand, and we care about what happens.
Were it not for the bitter, the sweet wouldn't mean what it does. Hold on, the ship is not sinking, it's just going through a storm. We'll pray for the sun to shine, and for a calm when you reach the further shore.
And maybe..... for increased ability so you can handle it. *<;-D>
We got winners; we got losers; Chain smokers and boozers. An' we got yuppies; we got bikers; An' we got, thirsty hitchhikers. And the girls next door dress up like movie stars:
Mm, mm, mmm, mmm, mmm, I love this bar. We got cowboys; we got truckers; Broken hearted fools and suckers. An' we got husslers; we got fighters; Early birds and all nighters. And the veterans talk about their battle scars: Mm, mm, mmm, mmm, mmm, I love this bar.
I love this bar, It's my kind place. Just walk in through the front door, Puts a big smile on my face. It ain't too far; come as you are. Mm, mm, mmm, mmm, mmm, I love this bar.
I've seen short skirts; we've got high-techs; Blue collar boys and rednecks. An' we got lovers; lots of lookers; I've even seen dancin' girls and hookers. And we like to drink our beer from a mason jar: Mm, mm, mmm, mmm, mmm, I love this bar, yes I do!
I like my truck, (I like my truck), An' I like my girlfriend, (I like my girlfriend), I like to take her out to dinner; I like a movie now and then:
But I love this bar, It's my kind place. Just toeing around the dance floor, Puts a big smile on my face. No cover charge; come as you are. Mm, mm, mmm, mmm, mmm, I love this bar. Mm, mm, mmm, mmm, mmm, I just love this ol' bar.
When one is on a quest, as I have been lately, it becomes very easy to "not quite notice" others. Quests are selfish.
I know you said you were tired when we wrote last weekend, and I know I sent you hugs, but reading this makes me aware that you need so much more! I wish I could help in a tangible way... but the best I can do is give my cyber-hugs and pray... and I am doing both.
Take good care of yourself and DD... because you can't help anyone (most of all your partner-in-love) when you're weak, sick and hurting yourself.
Thank you all, very much, for the hugs and the words of support. It's been such a stressful few weeks that I don't think I even realized how far gone all my energy was. I cried like a little lost child last night, and was comforted, and then slept. Not enough, and yet my spirit is renewed somewhat. I'm glad of that.
I hope you are all well.
Kimmy, I wish I owned a bar sometimes.
I also occasionally wish that I owned a bookstore.
GC, what does ETA stand for in this context? I don't think I've seen it used like that before.
No you don't hon. It's a heckuvalot of work....you have to clean up...um....drunk messes, and you never see the light of day or your family. It sucks on toast....the only redeeming quality was that I learned how fast it takes to ice the perfect beer.
...last night, without me having said anything about it for some time now, other than noting I'll be going 2 the telescope thingy alone this year, my W said "I'm going 2 try 2 get my preparations for OOSP far enough along so I can go up for a day". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
And I almost always feel hot, but then, I live in the desert.
Kimmy, I am such a fool sometimes. I should have taken half the brownies, and put them in a bag in my desk. Sometimes I get in these serious moods - I know you don't believe it, but I do.
Gray, For a smart guy, you are such a dunce sometimes. I once though I was the only one, but nooooooo.
Faithful, you don't have to report, I'll pray for you just the same.
Hi J, You may not get to relax much now, but your turn will come.
2, are we channeling or something? We posted almost the same thing at the almost the same time on that other thread. Get out of my frontal lobes! There’s not enough room for me in there as it is.
Kimmy - you've convinced me to remain a bar patron and and never a bar owner.
Weaver is watching us. I can feel it.
FF, hi. You always get prayers from me.
Oh, GC, since it's your campsite I suppose I ought to say hey. You know, I could introduce you to my younger sister. She's a recent PHD though and she doesn’t take any crap from anyone. I think she will be in your neck of the woods off and on for business (Mayo Clinic) this summer.
2, did you respond to your W appropriately to the telething overture?
I hope you didn’t just grunt something in return like I tend to do when FWW does something like that. I can be so taken off guard I get tongue-tied. It’s a geek thing, I believe.
My W is still unaware that she's sometimes pretty selfish, but it's been fun of late watching her slowly really coming back 2 life after all these years.
Did I mention that, a few weeks ago, she just thanked me out of the blue for buying her the antique bookcases for her office for an anniversary present in Dec, rather than having a reckoning of our M at the 30-yr mark like she'd suggested 4 years ago? She said "it's so comfortable in there now. I can get a lot more done now that I've got someplace quiet that I can organize my stuff in."
Last 2ple nights, she hasn't gotten up during the night 2 go sleep in the spare room. Well, she may have gotten up, but she came back if she did.
I'd love 2 have her along, even if it's only for a day (the raffles Sa2rday night are pretty awesome, though, and if she's there, it 2bles my odds! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I mean, it gives her a chance 2 win, 2! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).
Appy - to answer your question on my Smidge thread...
According to the geological soil report here at work, the property we're looking at has Houston black clay with 1-3% slopes and pecan gap chalk. Cretaceous fossils are very common. While generally not cavernous, there is a greater than expected density of caves and passages in this area.
So yep. Bat caves are a possibility.
We also could have an in groud pool without having to blast it out (much to the Wookie's dissapointment).
I do not know how you did it - but you just caused a complete song that I have not even pondered for over 20 years to just totally pop into my head!!! (did you hear it)
Something about drinking colorado Kool-Aid, and talking to some mexicans.....
WOW!!!!
I thought my memory was already starting to slip away from me. (and I turn 39 on thursday....)
I found the place in which I'm currently living on Craigslist. We had to pull over for horses to walk by when I brought the family to see it last year.
Coolest place I have ever lived. (Of course - I lived in Texas for 37 years. HELLL is a cooler place to live. Meteorologically speaking, that is. Big D is one of my favorite places to be.... anybody ever go to John L's in the early 90s?? Gay bars can be fun, if you take your wife. Great live music....)
2long, that is incredible news about the positive developments in your marriage. Lets hope that it begins to snowball, as I am sure it will.
As for everyone else:
STOP talking to me, you are just trying to lure me back here LOL, and I have areas of my life that are in serious neglect...so I WILL get out of here, somehow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
This week I have been trying to verbalize what I have come away with, from my time on MB...this leg of my journey so to speak, and I can't seem to find the words to articulate what this particular group of people at the campfire has meant to me. You all have opened up parts of my mind and heart to new ideas, to new ways of thinking, being and given me courage to be who I am/could/should be.
Anyway this was what came out...thank you, for what I have learned from all of you.
"Finding my way home"
I came here to heal From wounds self-inflicted On myself and on others My parents, my friends And in the hearts of the strangers, I met on the Net.
I came here to heal From wounds self-inflicted And didn’t know how, But somebody told me That band-aids and stitches Would leave scars, not pretty And I knew deep down, this wasn't the way
I came here to heal From wounds, self-inflicted And all it took was a change in perception These wounds, self-inflicted Never existed They were illusions I created To keep me from peace
These wounds, self-inflicted Were not wounds after all They were road maps Laced with angels, And friends I would meet Leading me home To the place we call peace
Can you make it a Top 40 hit that everyone will be humming under their breath for the next fifteen months?
SS, thanks for the ETA explanation. I owe you mail. I'll get to it one of these minutes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Kimmy, you're right, I don't want to own a bar. I want the kind of community I want to believe is available in bars and cafes and coffeehouses and bookstores. The kind that's available here on the campfire and which I seem genetically incapable of finding in the "real" world.
Maybe it has to do with who we are on the Web, as opposed to who we are in person. I suspect we are all much "better" here than in person.
Well, except HoFS, who is much tastier in person. And smells good, too.
Loved your poem. Gc's gonna have 2 put that 2 2nes!
I'm not that good at poetry, so I quote a lot. Like this one about peace:
"Peace - A Beginning" -King Crimson
"I am the ocean Lit by the flame I am the mountain Peace is my name I am the river Touched by the wind I am the story I never end."
and this one
"Peace, an End" -King Crimson
"Peace is a word Of the sea and the wind. Peace is a bird who sings As you smile. Peace is the love Of a foe as a friend; Peace is the love you bring To a child
Searching for me You look everywhere, Except beside you. Searching for you You look everywhere, But not inside you.
Peace is a stream From the heart of a man; Peace is a man, whose breadth Is the dawn. Peace is a dawn On a day without end; Peace is the end, like death Of the war."
What a gift that is, I don't have it but I am in awe of people who do.
I think we all have these awesome, beautiful, inspired thoughts from time to time...but to be able to put them to words, what a gift!
I used to think that peace was absense of pain(emotional and physical), but now I know it takes so much more to achieve inner peace...an absense of fear and of regret, as well as a certain knowing that all is as it should be, and a deep belief in God. Well that may be just my projection, as far as the belief in God (or whatever your higher power may look like/be called), but it would be interesting to talk to an athiest and see what his take on peace is, without a higher power.
When I first found out Dan was married, I had some kind of mini breakdown and P's dad had to come and get her. I ended up attending a six week workshop at the request of a friend, led by a minister who follows ACIM, and the music director/professor at the University here also attended with his wife who had cancer at the time (she has since died). He said to the class that he was there seeking inner peace. I thought that was such a worthy goal, and at the time had never heard anyone put it in such a way. But now I know it is what we are all looking for.
I have been thinking also about why we are so drawn to the board and I read that we all have a need to be heard, to be known...really known, our thoughts, our fears, our desires.
This board gives us this. For me I can't say this kind of stuff out loud because quite frankly, no one I know wants to hear it and because it is hard for me to talk out loud this way.
So I guess if you are not the kind of person who is easily addicted (like me), it is a very good hobby, and it is an exercise in communication skills.
Everyone on this board has a gift of one kind or another, and if you read them enough you can see what that gift is.
2long (and I don't want to embarass you) is probably one of the most read posters on this board, even if most people don't have the courage to post to him...he has the power to influence... Because 2long you have everything it takes to lead people, you are very intelligent as well as wise, you are kind, thoughtful, and very responsible in how you respond...what you say, and you do this powerful gift proud. I put Ap, and SS in that same category...and I think it is because with all of the other attributes it takes to lead, you also have a great capacity to not be self-serving in your desire to help others.
Weaver - haven't you gone yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Is it autumn already <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Love ya. TT
"Weaver - haven't you gone yet? Is it autumn already ."
Now CUT THAT OUT! Dont' scare her off when she's saying such nice things about me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ac2ally, weaver, I am more than a little embarrassed. I wonder if what you say is even really true? I'm sure I never thought it possible.
After all, I'm just a poor country rocket scientist lost in the Big City, doncha know, or doncha?... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Funny, in a thought-provoking way, what you said about atheists. For a very long time, I considered myself one. Now, I like the term "atheologist", but I think I made that up and don't know if it would be appreciated or unders2d (or interpreted as a "bashing" statement on my part).
It all started when my W and I were dating. I was a Christian Scientist and she was fundamentalist. We went 2 each other's churches for a 2ple years, and ended up 2th stopping al2gether not long after we M'd.
For a 2ple years, I remember being concerned about "what if I get really sick" kinds of things, but that fear faded away.
After that, I was probably a bit more antagonistic and angry about organized religion than I ought 2 have been (that's when I suppose I "deserved" 2 be most embarrassed).
And after that, I think I started 2 find peace with my spiri2al beliefs - because I don't believe I ever stopped being spiri2al, I just stopped being religious.
Of course, along comes the internet, first-hand experience with infidelity, and all that $hi+, and with it came a renewal of soul-searching, and at the same time, occasional arguments about spiri2ality again...
But the peace rules, I think. At least as far as I feel about spiri2ality.
In recent years, I've also visited a number of atheist sites, and though I agree with many of the things they express frustration over, I don't agree with the anger that I see in some of them.
The way I figure it, we're all down here trying 2 figure our $hi+ out. And when we refrain from getting our panties in a wad over our differences, the journey can be pretty enjoyable.
weaver: Ac2ally, those lyrics were written by Peter Sinfield, who wrote a lot of stuff for the early King Crimson, Emerson Lake and Palmer, MacDonald and Giles, among others. I also love these lyrics, but when I played the sample song off iTunes a while back, it sounded silly 2 me. Sometimes the lyrics need 2 stand on their own!
"Make It Today" - Peter Sinfield
"Count the sand within the glass You watch the grains of time slip past A million written words don't help your peace. You're not the first You're not the last You're just an actor in the cast From one to maybe half a hundred years.
What do you hear When the words are not clear? Blow your own way And you'll hear what I say Make it today
Superficial games you play To seek sensations everyway And in the maze you're running round and round. If you look with open eyes You'll see the truth You'll know the lies So climb the skies to where the rainbow's found.
What do you hear When the words are not clear? Blow your own way And you'll hear what I say Make it today
Free yourself and you will find There's peace of heart and peace of mind Both on the narrow stony road you run. You will see that black is white And nothing's wrong that is not right And love is everything beneath the sun."
This surprises me at times. I worry I might be tempting fate by relaxing even a little bit.
I am glad you CAN relax a little bit. It's no fun being on edge all the time. It would be nice to do an actual campfire, I bet you are a hoot in person.
Don't get me wrong, I like the virtual campfire, but real ones flame the marshmellows so much more quickly.
Hi SS. I'm here. I'm preoccupied, trying to get acquainted with a strange girl over the Internet, which I've never done and I find is definitely not for me. I write a response and look at it a hundred times before I send it. In person I'd just smile and say something clever and it would be better than any email I spent an hour on.
When one of our friends is in a crisis we feel guilty sharing trivial minutiae about our own lives, and now here I've done it.
When one of our friends is in a crisis we feel guilty sharing trivial minutiae about our own lives, and now here I've done it.
I asked because I didn't think it was trivial. I still don't think so.
It's interresting - what you write about how hard it is. When you were in the middle of trying to save your marriage, you wrote some of the most beautiful lines I have seen on MB.
I think my heart is in it... But I'm trying too hard, and hoping to look like I'm not. Which is odd, since I don't even mind if this doesn't pan out.
What you say reminds me of something. When I'm by myself, doing music, I come up with some very good stuff. When I'm with the band, and we're just fiddling around, we come up with some very good stuff. When we try to make it into an actual song, it usually loses something. I think great performers know how not to lose that.
Writing is that way. You want to tap into your soul, but sometimes, when there's something at stake, it's harder to do. When you don't care, for whatever reason, then you can speak from the heart.
Oh lordy, I'm never going to get out of here...so I resign myself to always being here. Maybe it's just a matter of getting P's timer back out again, hey SS?
Quote
The way I figure it, we're all down here trying 2 figure our $hi+ out.
Yep and all we get to take with us when we leave is our spiritual lessons, so lets make them good ones. You are no athiest 2long...I chuckle to myself everytime I read that, spiritual should be your middle name.
Kimmy,
What's wrong?
Gray,
I met a really cool couple of guys on the dating site, but it took a long time and weeding through a lot of not so cool ones. The one I am seeing now can't type...so you can imagine his agony. Give it an honest try and be very, very picky. WAT met his SO on Match and new_beginnings met her hubby, so there is hope, even for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Oh Kimmy, now I know. It's because of what is going on with Jen. She and Rob will get through this, maybe it's an eye opener to some stuff that hasn't been dealt with.
All we need do is "look behind the grievance for the miracle", because they are always presented together.
And GC, I met HoFS on the Internet, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Well, I MET him in the MSP airport when he picked me up one cold January night to take me out to P's house so that I could meet her for the first time.
But you know what I mean.
My mother would be horrified if she knew that I got in a car with a man I'd never met and drove to the wilds of Wisconsin to a houseful of people I'd never met and stayed with them for a weekend drinking red wine and port and hanging upside down on the couch and sleeping in the loft where the pool table is.
Then again, I think she might know that. If she's horrified, she's hiding it well.
When one of our friends is in a crisis we feel guilty sharing trivial minutiae about our own lives, and now here I've done it.
GC, we're on MB. Someone here, usually many someones, is always in crisis. Sometimes we know them well, sometimes not so well. We care for the person in crisis, of course -- and we must also care for ourselves and not make our own journeys small just because someone else is on the cliff path while we're walking on more solid ground.
My mother would be horrified if she knew that I got in a car with a man I'd never met and drove to the wilds of Wisconsin to a houseful of people I'd never met and stayed with them for a weekend drinking red wine and port and hanging upside down on the couch and sleeping in the loft where the pool table is.
JJ,
Maybe she's secretly thinking what a fine, fine job she did in raising such an adventuress. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
JJ, I know there's enough room for everyone, even when poor Rob and Kiwi are in a thunderstorm.
And for the record, weaver, I am not doing online dating. It's not for me. I meet enough people on my own. But I am emailing a girl that spotted me at an event and left a posting on a "missed connections" website saying she liked the looks of me. Or probably she meant me. Well, maybe 50/50, but she's sorta cute and I think it's possible I'd get along with her.
I hate this though. I'm going to get her on the phone or meet her ASAP.
Not holding back. Taking the harness off an relaxing.
Mom had a story about her grandfather telling the youn'uns to git in their harnesses every morning (he was a farmer). When she hit puberty, that saying made her blush something fierce.
Me, I'm okay. I tend to channel other people's hurts and take them personally. Maybe I shouldn't do that so much. I'm just not much of a writing off to SEP (somebody else's problem) type gal.
Oh lordy, I'm never going to get out of here...so I resign myself to always being here.
Oh weaver,
Haven't you figured out that nobody ever actually leaves Hotel MB?? Never. Ever. LOL
I have been staying away from the campfire because it is a gentle place, mostly, and I didn't want to put any negativity into the flames... and I've been feeling very negative lately.
I am not close to Jen, though we've "spoken" a time or two around here... and her confession rocked me, anyway. I've been spending the last two days thinking about why, and it's really not about her, but about me, which let's face it, is usually the case (not that it's about me, but that whatever you are fighting is within yourself - sheesh, did that makes sense?).
There must be balance. MB has very little balance. As J said, above, there is always someone in crisis - comes with the territory.
I'm a messy-insides person... we all are, to some extent. I keep my outsides very tidy - our home, our car, the phone directory - tidy. But on the inside, not so tidy. On the inside, I'm realizing, I'm kinda complex. Most of us are, I would guess. So my quest, for the last several months actually, has been to find the balance and to find my inner brat. The fiesty/ fighting part of me has been buried under a load of fluffballs. I've been suffocating.
My niceness has been a defence mechinism (sp) and although I'm actually a very compassionate person, there is a limit to what I will allow into my being. I've realized that there is such a thing as wallowing in my muck too long... and that allowing others pain to become my own is NOT HEALTHY. And really, you know, there is such a thing as being compassionate to myself first. Yeah, it's selfish... but as I near 50, I think I deserve to pay some attention to me... it's been a long time coming.
Nice is not the same as compassionate. You know that, of course, NBII. I just need to say it. Because, after all... we don't do nice.
Kindness and compassion we do in spades.
It's important to be compassionate to yourself. The Dalai Lama says to make your compassion for yourself EQUAL to your compassion for others. I think you are one who puts others first too often, though, so it may be time to come a little closer to balance.
I'm worried for Jen, too. It seems so, so... well, heck. I want to go visit her bookstore and feed her tea and listen in person, rather than watch a zillion people take her (very few) words and turn them into a mudslinging festival. Not necessarly at her. Just lots of ... stuff getting tossed around.
And it's not really right talking about her as if she's not here.
Jen, if you're here, we've got marshmallows. Drunken ones at that. Will you come have one, please? Maybe two? We'll makes sure you don't have so many that you're not safe to drive.
But I'm not so upset by her confession. I have known for a very long time that I'm susceptible to the things she's going through. I've made it this far by being vigilant, being honest and not ever keeping secrets, and by reminding myself over and over again that I do not want to hurt the people I love.
It's still sometimes a challenge. I recall a few weeks, about two years ago, when Cerri and HoFS took turns explaining to me, very calmly, that no, it was not okay to join Match.com while I was in Plan B.
It still happens that I can get into situations that aren't wise. A client offered me a ride on his new motorcycle the other day. An attractive client, someone I work with very well, someone who I've had to be careful of before. And I actually said, "Sure, if your wife would be okay with it." And then I thought, "Oh, wait. I wonder if HoFS would be okay with it." I asked him and he's not, and he's a wiser man than I am. (I'm not a man, but you know what I mean.)
Sometimes it's hard to remember why these things are so very dangerous. It's hard to remember. And hard to stay safe and not take risks, even when I'm aware of them.
I used to think I was invincible and that no one would "really" get hurt from what I did. Very occasionally, I still have thoughts that amount to similar things.
Then I turn around in my head and yell, "Haven't you learned ANYTHING yet???"
So it's hard, and I understand how a situation like Jen's could arise. I really want her to tell Rob and start to rebuild.
And I know what it feels like to be lost in that hall of mirrors. It's pretty darned awful.
I need 2 digress my thoughts (is digress a verb?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
2much pain out there this week...
Here's sort of a non-denominational inspirational song I've always enjoyed:
"Seven Veils" - Peter Murphy
"The day grows older. The moon appears In a mirror - A fireside mirror. A distant walker Hears the words, 'Go do good deeds So you'll feel ok.'
The moon and the sun, Partners in light. Separating, reflecting one light. Hearing this, confusion wanes. No need to ask for wealth, Or one thing more now.
And the night Feels the same, As the cool, hot summers climb. With the voice Comes no shame, As the walker walks the line.
The day grows older The moon appears, Reflecting on his heart Heavy, weighed and pierced. The walker looks at his days - Bad deeds gone by, For which he must pay.
The moon and the sun, Partners in light. Separating, reflecting one light. Hearing this, confusion wanes Another image hits The seven veils of mind.
But the night Feels the same, As the cool, hot summers climb. With the voice comes no shame, As the walker hunts the line."
I hadn't been able to get all the way through writing anything since spring '04. I've started lots of tunes. They've all been about the $Hi+ that brought me here. But I have not finished one. They've all started promising, but somehow they've gone nowhere.
So I was thinking to myself, maybe it's not my "craft". Maybe it's this tired subject. I abandoned the words to a half-done tune that's been driving me absolutely nuts. I started writing about one of my uncles, a WWII vet who's in a nursing home, and his wife, my mom's oldest sister. A song spilled out before I knew what hit me. It's good too. Not some sentimental jive.
Fussin' over my own sadness doesn't make me inspired, it just makes me... fussy.
I wrote a song once called "The Expat Wife who got Shat on Blues". If you could put a tune to it, I think it would be a very big hit in Asia. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
Congrats on finishing your song. You obvious had writer's block for a while. Perhaps you're turning a corner.
Last night, we 2k the kids and SIL and went 2 our favorite Mexican restaurant for foodies.
I had one of my favorite burritos and a bunch of chips and salsa. Yum. But I went home 2 full.
At 3am, I woke up from a strange dream. I dreamed we were on a starship and towels were coming out of the linen cabinet, carrying buckets of water on2 the bridge, with "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" playing over the ship's intercom. At first, we tried shooting the towels with our phasers, lest they short out some sensitive equipment console with their buckets of water. When we did, though, they'd be quickly replaced with another towel with buckets of water "in hand" (and we were worried we'd run out of towels). But we soon realized that we could 2rn off the replicators so their buckets would be empty, and we'd simply let them walk around until they got dirty and had 2 go 2 the laundry for cleaning.
FAR, I demo things in the basement on my laptop. I just use audacity and a SM57 adapted to the mic input on the computer. Don't laugh. You'd be surprised.
But that's mainly just to try vocal harmonies and beats before I present things to the band. It gets scary down there, but man, it's so much fun.
Gawd, what a beautiful, though melancholy, composition!
-ol' 2long P.S. Look folks. We'va had 2 deal with a lot of unpleasant $h!+ this week. We know that. Let's convert it 2 oppor2nity! (my favorite Mars rover of all time, doncha know? Or doncha!)
GC, SS, Weaver, JJ, Appy et al.. taking a possibly permanent break from here. I don't want my rep as a member of Idiotville to bring down people I care about. You will all continue to be in my prayers.
Weaver, you have my addy if you want to contact me.
Uh, FF, waitasecond please? I dunno if you'll read this, but.
See, you are not JUST an Idiot.
You are also a campfire, uhm, girl. (I just made that up. There are also campfire boys. Or boy scouts, or whatever they want to call themselves.)
I know you're hurting about the general goofiness on the boards the last few days. I don't know what in specific is hurting you, and I'm sorry that it is.
Still, we didn't vote you off the island yet.
(It's Weaver's island. And better than the real one.)
Speaking of real islands, look at THIS one before you go:
It's a goat. On the roof of Al Johnson's Swedish Restaurant in Sister Bay, which is in Door County.
So, see, here's my point.
You are feeling, I think, pretty inadequate and unlovable and generally miserable. Or that's what comes through in the post.
I don't want you to feel that way.
So take a while to look at the pictures, and any other pictures that you really love. Take some time to talk to God and to remember all the people that you love. Take some time to remember that the campfire, and Idiotville, are both little villages in the middle of this great big city called MB. And -- remember that a village comes together the most in the hard times. Don't run away because of a hard time, hon. If you need to take a break to protect yourself, I can understand that -- please do!
But if you're taking your marshmallows and going home, well, I'm pretty sure that's not on the agenda right now.
GC, SS, Weaver, JJ, Appy et al.. taking a possibly permanent break from here. I don't want my rep as a member of Idiotville to bring down people I care about. You will all continue to be in my prayers.
Weaver, you have my addy if you want to contact me.
Huh? Say what?
We are all so emotional of late, but that is okay. As 2long and JJ said, this will in the end, be a sitch/drama/crisis which brings goodness about.
A cleansing of sort, or maybe a metamorphis.
I do not think any less of you, or any person on the Iville thread for doing what they are bound to do by their beliefs, bonds, experience. I judge only myself Faith, and act in accordance with what I have learned is the best way for me, I strive for this anyway. Dishonesty is huge for me, and it is the one thing I will no longer accept in my life, not from myself or others. My daughter has only gotten in big trouble once in her life from me, and that is when I over-heard her lie to a girlfriend. I don't know Faith, it is so hard sometimes to know what is right. That is why I no longer question this one thing, ever. It is my fence and I will not move it.
We are all such soft-hearted souls around this joint, but it is good every now and then for a crisis to help us examine where we are, and to look hard within ourselves.
I have your email addy, but here is mine [email]chanci99@hotmail[/email] if you want it, I am not very good at email, just so you know...not much of an emailer, nope.
For a long time now, we've been gathering around this campfire and have learned much, shared much, cried together, laughed together, vented, been heard...it's a beautiful thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
It seems a little like an out-of-body experience, but dispite all the other messy stuff going on out there in the dark, I still trust you around the campfire.
I still trust you within our shared MB context.
I need to trust somebody around here, but there are so few.
Someone once said I didn't spell well. I can't remember who.
Hope Weaver is well - you seem to be, so I don't worry (much.) Let us know how Faithful is when you hear from her. I would like to know also.
I am not understanding why she left. It doesn't make sense to me. As far as I am concerned, she should come back unless she needs the time to work on her marriage.
Perhaps she doesn't realize how valueable she has been?
Let us know how Faithful is when you hear from her. I would like to know also.
I don't either. I keep reading her post, but it doesn't make sense. I think she is torn about recent events...huge trigger for many, and not knowing which way is the right way to offer support to a friend.
Faith is fragile, and the people on this board have become a huge source of sanity, in a world which has been pretty insane for her.
It hits hard when you rely on this board for normalcy...when the people in your life have uncertain and unclear boundaries, ethics, morals.
I see so much of myself in Faith, and vice versa... for those reasons.
I will let you all know how she is if I talk to her. I know Pep will forward my email to her.
Perhaps she doesn't realize how valueable she has been?
She is very, very valuable. She is gentle, and sweet, and fun, and loving...she cares about others when faced with events which would be way too much for most of us.
She is an incredible person, and an incredible mother...a wife who has stood by her husband through the unimaginable.
I hope you are reading Faith...because you are already so very missed, and it has been what, a day?
SS, I am doing great, but I have not had to climb the mountains Faith has, so yeah I am pretty worried... as I know you and others are.
SS, I am great doing, but I have not had to climb the mountains Faith has, so yeah I am pretty worried... as I know you and others are.
Oh.................. I don't know about that. It seems to me your mountains have been quite something too. I have great respect for what you have been through, and the growth you have experianced. For who you are. Great respect.
We are all on our own journey, with our own spiritual lessons to learn.
For whatever reasons, some have chosen to be the waywards and some have chosen to be the not waywards...but we will all get to the same place, eventually, it is certain.
SS, I have never been faced with recovery, I have never been faced with "for better or for worse", I have only had to deal with my own recovery...not shared, and not with anyone elses.
I have had it far, far easier than most on this board.
I'm falling in love again. He drove up, five hours from Green Bay because he thought I would have to spend Mothers Day alone. He went to breakfast with my best friend, her family and my daughter...and then took us to Canada, just because.
I haven't wanted to talk about GB too much lately, because I have this terrible fear that he will turn out like the rest, but something tells me that maybe he is different.
He wants me to move there. I told him I wanted to work in a coffee shop, next time around, because Customs business was too stressful after 20 years, and 9/11...and he said, then we will open up a small place for you to work at. He is not rich but he is good at starting business's...
So after three months I am considering it...marriage.
And I am so scared, but peaceful and calm at the same time.
He gets a motel room when he comes here, and asks for nothing of me. He is so sweet.
Oh lord, slow is good...fast is bad.
But how?
edited: SS, you will laugh at this, but after I re-read my post, I could hear Paige saying "Mom, you never start a sentence with the word "but"". My spelling and grammar are so much better when she is reading here with me. LOL
I did SS. I told him it would take a year for me to know he is for real, and then he would have to come and help me get my houses fixed up and sold.
He was great with Paige. Kids really like him, and he has a 21 yo daughter.
He comes from a family of 10 siblings, all in his area, so I am really excited about that. They are close too. What could be more wonderful for P and me. She is already asking if his daughter wants a little sister and if she likes to shop (because mom doesn't like to).
We'll see. He is spiritual too, and he truly is, he is not just faking it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Heh. Gray, are you trying to get weaver used to the weird way they talk in Green Bay? Although GB might not actually use the term youse (as in "Hey, youse guys! How's the beer, dere, eh? Want some brats widdat?").
It all depends on whether he's from the French side of Green Bay (where they speak with a slightly French-flavored Wisconsin accent) or from a more German-Polish area like my home town, where they speak the way I described above.
Northeastern Wisconsin has fascinating accents. And some mighty odd people, too.
Ten siblings means, I'm guessing, that they're Catholic as opposed to Lutheran. You okay with that (widdat), Weaver?
And no, even though I'm from there, I don't have any of those accents. My mom is from Arkansas, my dad from another part of Wisconsin. I spent half my childhood near Madison and the other half in Manitowoc. Then I went to MinneSOHta for college (4 years), Seattle for grad school (6 years), Northern Virginia for work (8 years), and Maryland for legal safety for my daughter (3 years).
I'm told that I have as "standard American" an accent as anyone possibly could.
Weaver, guard your heart a bit, eh? He sounds cool and a year is a good amount of time. Don't rush that year. If it's worth spending the time, it's worth it. And if it's not, then you're no worse off than you were before, right? Right.
It's too soon to go out wedding dress shopping, but he sure is something special.
Like laughter
Like TGIF Hot Wings, Marie's blue cheese dressing and a great glass of Boujelais after a [censored] day at work
Like the white caps on Lake Superior on a really wild day
Like an old broken in goose down pillow
Like my childhood, before life happened
Like sex, after years of celibacy
Kimmy, I sent him all of the above in an email where I told him what I saw when I looked at him, and he said he almost started crying reading that and showed it to his sister who said she knew exactly what I meant.
Then he told me that he remembered me...from childhood dreams.
We actually both said in simulaneous emails that we felt like we had grown up together somewhere, somehow...like childhood best friends that never met.
That makes no sense Kimmy. I'm going to get off of the subject now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Mmm. A yooper accent is a little different than the ones in NE WI, I think, but yeah, the "background" in most of the accents in Wisconsin are based on German/Polish derivatives.
I wouldn't be able to define the difference between a yooper accent and a NE WI accent, but I think I would know it when I hear it. It's funny to go back to WI and hear the newscasters speaking with that accent. I used to think they spoke standard American English, when I was a kid!
Oh, and there are exceptions, of course. The Milwaukee accents are affected by the black population there, the French accents affect accents around Green Bay and Peshtigo, Norwegian and Swedish accents are in pockets here and there, and Native American accents on and near the reservations.
Am I thick or something? You are not sure whether the guy you are falling in love with has a German or Polish accent (I've only read this page so sorry if I've got that wrong?) Haven't you asked him where he's from?
My dad's a pole. He's lovely!
I love what you wrote to him. I'm going to cut and paste in the hope I can pass them off as my own one day!
No I haven't asked him his heritage TT, but he was born and raised in Green Bay.
I am going to Green Bay for 5 glorious days Memorial weekend, so I will find out all the things JJ has been speaking of.
He spends a lot of time in New Orleans, his favorite place in the U.S.(tried desperately to be involved in the re-building efforts but without luck as NO wants to keep it local), and he is a bit crazy...maybe it is because he is from Green Bay (NE?).
JJ, you are making it sound like the coolest place in the world, Wisconsin. I am so excited to go to Green Bay, I can't even tell you... You'd think I was going to Africa or something. LOL
KY, put some cotton in those delicate ears, would ya?
Sounds like a great guy... ...except for the bleu cheese! (ol' 2long gags when people put the bleu cheese spoon in the ranch dressing at the cafeteria at work).
"We actually both said in simulaneous emails that we felt like we had grown up together somewhere, somehow...like childhood best friends that never met.
That makes no sense Kimmy. I'm going to get off of the subject now. "
Makes perfect sense 2 me... ...and yes, I agree with Kimmy - you're positively GUSHING.
Ever see the movie "Made in Heaven", with Timothy Hutton and Kelly McGillis?
Don't recall seeing that movie 2Long, but I'll be looking out for it now.
I'm glad it makes sense to you, what I said. Maybe those of you who married, had the same feelings and that is why you married. I certainly hope so, because it is a really good feeling...calm, peaceful, and exciting too, ...almost like going home. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I read JJ's posts to him regarding Green Bay and he was just tickled pink because he didn't know all that about the different accents and heritages.
He is from the west side, was raised Lutheran, mother is of Danish origin, and father of German.
He doesn't understand the whole forum thing, and can't type or I would get him here. He loves people and socializing., so I share as much as I can with him about everyone here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Be glad that you are doing everything in your power to save your marriage. Be glad that you are you, and that you have such fine kids, good friends, and a wife you love, regardless of her level of involvement.
You can love 2long, not everyone can. How sad is that?
Oh shoot, I just realized that your sadness is for your wife, and not youself.
You're sad because you know you are going to go if she doesn't get on board soon. That's it, isn't it?
Yep. Problem is that I realized that I don't want 2 save my marriage. I just think it's right 2 try.
Yes, I am sad not only because of the timing of things, but because I don't think she will get on board anytime soon. Maybe not for years. That will be 2long, anymore.
Kimmy:
"The Great Explosion" is a quick read, and very funny sci-fi. You can download the whole book here:
I just wanted to pop and steal a marshmallow or two and say "hi". I am enjoying my break. Y'all are the best friends! Truly sweet things you said and I appreciate it. I know it was confusing when I left. I felt like I was being judged for being Jen's friend and didn't want to bring that judgement on the good people here. I also felt my credibility as a poster was being questioned..all my issue I understand. The break is good though cuz I really need to focus and wrap my head around what recovery is and if we really are in it. I will be back soon.
{{}} to all of you, especially you 2long who I see is making some very tough decisions.
Yep. Problem is that I realized that I don't want 2 save my marriage. I just think it's right 2 try.
Yes, I am sad not only because of the timing of things, but because I don't think she will get on board anytime soon. Maybe not for years. That will be 2long, anymore.
Kimmy:
"The Great Explosion" is a quick read, and very funny sci-fi. You can download the whole book here:
Maybe I'll read it again when I have time. I need a good laugh.
-ol' 2long
The prologue has caught me. Will read it today.
Appy - Have not read Diskworld. And I knew you meant SciFi...even now, when someone talks SF, I ask no questions about it being a top EN....Science Fiction is one of mine, too.
“On my uniform, Sergeant Major,” replied Gleed as soothingly as possible. “I am not wearing my uniform right now.”
“Is that so? I am indebted to you for the information. I wouldn’t have been aware of it if you hadn’t drawn my attention to it.” He fumed a bit, then roared, “Get those stripes on somehow, I don’t care how. Paint them on if necessary. The fact that you’re stark doesn’t mean you’ve been discharged from the space service and have ceased to be an N.C.O.” With that he marched irefully out, pausing only to look back and say, “God help us!”
Is funny as h-e-double-hockey-sticks. I'm loving this book!
Also a good one, though I've never been addicted to his stuff. Personally, I think the best fantasy author out there is Guy Gavriel Kay. A Song for Arbonne and Tigana are wonderful.
Another hilarious SF series are the Retief books by Keith Laumer. Also, A Plague of Demons, by Laumer. I recommend them for whatever ails you.
I laughed my way through the 80's with them. They may be old but then so am I.
You can get good as new copies from Amazon for less than 2 bucks.
Also, not as hilarious but very good are the Berserker books by Saberhagen. I don’t remember for sure, but I think I mentioned them once before on here. But then I already admitted I am old and I forget. I think.
I met Laumer once many, many moons also. Did I say I am old? He was not very nice in person. Seems odd a cranky curmudgeon could write such hilarious stories.
Description: At its best, it is the greatest form of cooperative improvisational theater that you will ever see or participate in. At its worst, it's catty and mean.
Example of what happens there: ANYTHING that can happen in real life, and many things that cannot.
I've been a dragonrider.
I've been a Baker.
I've been a man.
I've been a woman.
I've been insane.
I've been in love.
I still walk around with a dragon in my soul.
And I should not be doing searches on the names of people I knew from there. Oh, my aching heart.
Hey, yall! (yes, I live in SoCal, but my blood will always be from Texas!)
I just looked over at the sections that have the "D" word in them. Seems like some interesting, nice people. But if it is just the same to you - I think I will stay by the campfire for a while. Probably a very long time.
It is time for me to start a new thread. Maybe I will get to it. But it is very comfortable by the fire. And I need the comfort right now.
Description: At its best, it is the greatest form of cooperative improvisational theater that you will ever see or participate in. At its worst, it's catty and mean.
Example of what happens there: ANYTHING that can happen in real life, and many things that cannot.
I've been a dragonrider.
I've been a Baker.
I've been a man.
I've been a woman.
I've been insane.
I've been in love.
I still walk around with a dragon in my soul.
And I should not be doing searches on the names of people I knew from there. Oh, my aching heart.
I used the cover art from DragonSinger as my focal point when in labor with my oldest. I wrote McCaffrey and told her. She wrote back that she was tickled to help....
Off work the past few days. I sanded the floors in three rooms of my house. Thirteen hrs today; just finished.
Way past tired. Was exhausted four hours ago. I bet this is what parenting is like.
My house is in chaos. My Hammond is on the porch. My bed is dismantled. I'm covered in sawdust. A cool show is going on at one of my favorite places but I don't know if I could even tie my shoes.
I'm going to take a shower, finish watching City of God (an incredible picture so far), and conk on my couch. I'll fall asleep in seconds if this beer has anything to say about it.
FAR, I'm pretty impressed by the M3. I reckon mine needs a little work because it makes a bit of gurgly noise when it's running. It's cool though - really beat up and ugly, just the thing for a dude to have in his dining room.
How long do you wait b4 you start thinking, er, uh, doing something about women?
What do you suggest? I do a good job of putting myself out there. But man, things have been dead lately, and all recent leads have fallen apart.
My dad wants to pay for me to have the carpet pulled up, the floors sanded, and then refinished.
If you lived closer, GC, I'd offer to pay you in beer and women. If I could find the women, that is -- all you'd get right now is me and DD, and though we're both female, we're not gonna be able to satisfy all your desires for girls.
(We are, however, quite cute. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
I've been to visit HoFS, and then I got sidetracked into the discussions about religion rather than coming right over to the campfire when I got back.
Weaver, I'm so glad you feel comfortable enough to talk about your religion here.
Aphelion, your descriptions and comments over on the DaVinci Code thread are fascinating. I don't meet scientists who are practicing Christians very often. The ones that I know, though, are some of the most thoughtful people I've had the pleasure to meet.
NewBeginningsII, if you're reading here, here's a hug for you. I want you to know, because I know you worry about these things, that I have great respect for what you're saying and working through. It's really cool and I don't want anything that I say to be a wedge between us. Come to think of it, if I remember to I'll e-mail this to you, as well, so I'm sure you see it.
An update on HoFS: He is doing pretty well. He's lost 30 pounds in the last four weeks. (Just like the infidelity diet, this is NOT the way you want to lose weight.) He's still not able to stand up for long periods of time, and standing still is almost impossible. However, he did manage to go out for a couple of hours on Saturday -- we went to Wal-Mart and picked up all the things he's been waiting to get for four weeks. We also got him a couple of new pairs of shorts and a belt, since none of his fit him right now. We spent Saturday night playing Risk with his boys (I really enjoy Risk, and am glad they like it, since I rarely get to play). Sunday was a quiet day. We did housework. Laundry, food prep for the week, sorting mail and other papers. We talked about finances and kids and mundane things. In between we took naps and smooched and made good food and laughed with each other.
I missed him. Three weeks is WAY too long to go without seeing him. If anyone has a magic way for us to spend more time together without negatively affecting our kids' lives and contact with their other parents, let me know. I'd love to hear it.
I'm at a conference. This afternoon I ran into a woman I haven't seen in years. We hung out a while and caught up.
She's kept in touch with a woman I used to get on famously with, back in grad school. I got along so well with this other woman, in fact, that one day, many years ago, I decided to stop getting along famously with her and started avoiding her instead. I hadn't been married for very long, but I could tell this friendship was sure to end in tears.
Today I heard that this woman has since gotten married, had a child, discovered her husband's affair, attempted unsuccessfully to save her marriage, and fought a horrible protracted bitter custody battle, and that she's just starting to pick up the pieces.
Sometimes we make choices for ourselves, sometimes other people make them for us.
I posted to the thread started by OnlyHuman’s OW on Recovery a couple hours ago. While I was typing I had a random thought - I wished OPs in general would just disappear. Of course, I was projecting this from long-running opinion about FWW’s OM, but the thought was certainly a concrete one.
About two minutes after I posted, the whole thread disappeared - right off the board. It hasn’t come back yet either.
Better be careful out there. Don’t make me think you into oblivion too.
There’s no proof I can’t do it, after all.
ed: It was a good post though. I suppose there has to be a downside when using magic. Keep the universe balanced or something.
Faithful, Glad to see your sense of humor is back. You scared me when you got so serious for so long.
Kimmy, how goes it? I haven't read much for a while. What I mean is how are you? I see the brave part of you is still facing the world, and taking care of business. How about the rest of you?
Hi Gray - hope your soul is well today.
J, You sound well on the surface. Hope the underneath is the same.
2long, Still ongoing communication, or did she go dark on you again?
Hi Weaver, You have lots of decisions to make. Hard, or easy?
Appy - you're on a roll. Good for you. I hope it's because life is good for you this week.
Hi Everyone !! Life is good ....... mostly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> SS
Yes George, I think you should do as 2long suggested and stay back there on your 1000'th post. It could be like the twightlight zone where we all go forward with new posts on new pages but you are stuck back there with only your text changing, never going anywhere.
We could have so much fun reminding each other to go back every 100 pages or so to see if George had anything new to say. Oh how fun, please let us have this fun George.
I'm off to Green Bay tonight for the long weekend. We have so much planned including a rock festival in DePere, a bbq with his family, fun on the Harley and boating on the Bay.
How's that for fun?
SS, the choices are becoming easier each day.
JJ, yes it's nice to share in a safe place, so I am grateful for all who let each other talk...beautiful isn't it, when that happens.
Weaver, Wishing you all the best, and God bless you with the answers, so you don't have to wonder
SS, thank you! I think this is the real deal, it is definitely not infatuation, it feels calm. He feels like someone I have always known. It's wierd, and you know Paige's dad is moving over by Chicago, so moving now is an option for us, it never was before. I think he'll have her in the summers and me during the school year. GB is already trying to decide what to do with a bedroom for her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And because he comes from such a large family all in that area, I know it will be good for her. Well I'll meet them this weekend, so we'll see.
Oh and SS, I'm doing it the right way this time or not at all, marriage first.
Not leaving until tomorrow now, so... going out over the airways is an old favorite for GrayCloud -
friend, brother, son, wood worker, music maker, weather man...
Don't ever stop dreaming Gray, dream until your dreams come true.
Dream On, by Aerosmith
Every time I look in the mirror All these lines on my face getting clearer The past is gone It goes by, like dusk to dawn Isn't that the way Everybody's got their dues in life to pay
Yeah, I know nobody knows where it comes and where it goes I know it's everybody's sin You got to lose to know how to win
Half my life is in books' written pages Lived and learned from fools and from sages You know it's true All the things come back to you
Sing with me, sing for the year Sing for the laughter, sing for the tears Sing with me, if it's just for today Maybe tomorrow, the good lord will take you away
Dream On Dream On Dream On Dream until your dreams come true <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Oh and SS, I'm doing it the right way this time or not at all, marriage first.
When we talked about that before........ all I ever wanted to do was protect your feelings in the future. I am happy, because you will get what you deserve this time.
Dream on - best played LOUD when I need to get something done.
Weaver, do you remember how you felt so in love the last time around? If you don't, you might want to go look at your old posts, the ones at the very beginning when you didn't know the last guy you dated very well.
Can you see the similarities? And remember how, when you actually got to know the other one, all of a sudden there were some really strong flaws?
I've lived long enough to know that everyone, even HoFS who I love very very much, has significant flaws. They say that you should pass through all the seasons with someone. I think that's more than just the seasons of the year. I think it's the seasons of the heart. I want to know what he's like when he's sad and when he's angry, when he's happy and when he's laughing, when he's thinking and when he's busy, when he's relaxing and when he's sleepy.
When we know all those things, when you've seen him in the bad moods and the bad lighting and the terrible moments, then you will know much more than you do now. It's not to say that he's not worth it. I very much hope that he is. Just... don't fall in love with an illusion. Fall in love with the reality, if you can.
Sorry for not wishing you a good weekend before you left. But I'm sure you'll have one anyway!!
gc: yeah, what's the answer, dewed?
...ol' 2long's going 2 his scope thingy 2morrow morning. W decided she's going 2 let me "have my time alone" this weekend. Even though she's not going 2 OOSP as she'd originally planned, not until next Wed. My SIL's birthday is this weekend, and my DD and he are having friends over 2 the house all weekend.
I didn't expect anything, though, and so I'm not disappointed. Still don't know whether I'll go 2 OOSP this summer or not. Mostly, I'm not worried about that decision at this point, either.
We had a very good conversation last night and this morning about opposite sex friendships. My DS initiated it yes2rday with his mom, and she relayed some of the things he thought 2 me last night, so we had a chance 2 talk about our views then and this morning.
My W is starting 2 think, I think. She may have 2 far 2 go still, but it was good 2 air some of our "current truths", including perspectives on her A with RM.
No worries.
Have a great weekend, folk units! I certainly intend 2.
Look, in two days I reach the two-year mark since I registered.
My mother's cousin has been sort of a mentor for a young guy who was just married a year ago, and he's been hit with the ole "I want to divorce you so I can be with my affair partner and I expect you to shut your mouth and lay back and at least pretend to enjoy it."
Mom wants me to talk to this guy, who I've never met, because he's not doing well, seeing as he's just at the start of something I've already been through.
"Mom," I said, "I'm not through. I don't know if it works that way."
She asked what I meant. I said,
"Mom, two years ago people told me that whatever happened, in a couple of years it would be behind me and I'd be happy again. They said I'd heal well because I have a clean conscience, and that I just needed to grieve. Well, I may have been finally spit out the a$$ end of the cuckoldificator, but I'm still bruised, and possibly I've got permanent nerve damage. So I don't know if it would be honest, me trying to give him a nice shiny outlook about it all."
She told me to shut up and get a girlfriend. No, not really. She said I'd know what to say. We'll see.
did you really say THAT 2 your mom?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
But I do agree with ff. Your process may take some more time, but I bet that you can give this guy hope without giving him false hope. Hope for a better fu2re because he's a stable individual regardless of what his W chooses 2 do is not vain hope.
I agree also. Certainly I'll talk to the guy if they put me in touch.
Didn't mean to suggest I have a bleak outlook. I just dashed that thing off as I left the office. Whoops, shoulda stayed quiet. Now everyone'll think I'm depressed.
It's not depression that I see, GC. It's that darned angry eyebrow. Gives you away every time. *hug* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hi SS! HoFS is doing better in increments. I posted an update on SYMC. Here's what it said:
The papaya, kiwi, pineapple smoothie (with yogurt and honey and ice and vanilla) was quite tasty. We didn't have any brewers yeast, so I didn't add that.
The incision wound is looking better. There's only about 1 1/2 inches (out of maybe 7 inches total) that is still open. Of that, about half is closing up quickly and looks pretty good, and the other half still has further to go.
And, also in the good news department, HoFS is moving around better. He's able to sit for a fair while (as long as his leg is up) in places other than the recliner, and he even made it all the way down the hill (about 100 yards) to sit in front of the bonfire for a while on Saturday night. Significant improvements, to be sure.
Insert for the campfire thread: Golly, it was nice to sit in front of a real fire. Well, okay, not "sit" exactly. More like chase DD around the campfire, then stand where HoFS can reach the marshmallows that I made, then play with the boys and DD while they climb on things, then go get the bug spray, then play hide and seek, then make another marshmallow (somehow I didn't get one the second time I made them. Not sure who got those), and then take DD up to the house for bath and bed. Err, okay, the IDEA of the bonfire was nice, anyway....
Returning to our story, HoFS still can't stand still for very long, but I got my first couple of REAL hugs this weekend for the first time in a long while.
And he cooks a mighty fine-tasting steak. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
It seems clear from the looks of his leg that the clot and other things going on in his calf still have a ways to go, though. The calf is more or less back to its usual size, but there's still a large area (about the size of my hand, say) that's still hard and hot to the touch. I have no idea whether that's where blood from his knee ended up, or whether it's blood that is backed up behind the clot.
As you might imagine, his pain levels appear to be steadily dropping as well. He still ends up hurting quite a lot after any kind of walking or standing -- more than five minutes is hard, I'd say -- but it backs off fairly quickly after he's able to sit down again.
In other interesting news, his feet, which were calloused and cracked, are peeling and becoming very soft. And a dry and irritated spot that he's had on his back ever since August is also healing. Interesting, isn't it? Dunno if either of those will return after he becomes active again.
I'm guessing that he hasn't lost any more weight in the last week -- we fed him pretty well this weekend and he looks about the same as he did. Now he and I have just got to get a whole lot more sleep, and we'll be doing really well.
Note on the weight thing: I guessed wrong. Another four pounds since a week ago. That makes a total of almost 35 pounds, if I remember right.
Cranky, huh? HoFS hasn't been terribly cranky. Frustrated and very sad sometimes, though.
I've now gotten more than 8 hours of sleep two nights in a row. It makes a difference to one's outlook. I was completely incoherent on Tuesday. Now, I'm just tired.
In other news (http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=3025939&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1), I am either a troll or a "drive-by visitor from another web site." Perhaps it's just me, but that's the funniest thing I've read all day.
It's too bad that Longhorn decided that's what I am. And it's the first time, that I'm aware of, that I've ever been put on ignore. After all these years, someone decides that I'm controversial because I think a parent and child should not be separated from one another except in the direst of circumstances. Oddly enough, this reminds me of making the front page of the Washington Post for the entirely mundane experience of becoming a parent. In this strange life I've had, it seems that only the most mundance things I do are newsworthy or noteworthy.
It seems like there's a lesson there somewhere. Hmmm. I think the lesson is that I need to spend more time playing out in the yard. That's so mundane that surely I will eventually be a zillionaire from doing it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I think a fellow MB'r or two have me on ignore as well.
The ignore function is really cool because someone can post and post all day and you don't even know it until someone else comes along a uses the quote function.
And yes go out to the yard and enjoy your beautiful flowers and little girl. Get some sleep too, would ya? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Oh, and Weaver? Yes. You're roughly the sixth person who's taken a physical or virtual look at me and said, "Geez, get some sleep already!" So I'm trying. Really. Watch me. I'm going to go to bed now. Promise.
He reminds me of a "ferocious" little puppy who you just can't help laughing at.
I wrote the following for GB after a somewhat painful sharing of our pasts.
To my imperfect (and therefore perfect) friend.
You asked me what of you I would change, if I I could. And I replied that I would no more change a hair on your head than I would upset the cacoon from whence the butterfly emerges, lest I harm his wings and cripple his transformation to flight.
You might as well have asked if I would stunt your growth with misguided critisizim, or choose your path for you, or burden you with chains so heavy that you would be paralized from their weight. How could that be loving.
Later I thought what arrogance I would need to possess to even want to change what God had created in His perfect design, when instead I could put my hand in yours and we could soar together on a journey so complete that even the angels would squeal with delight.
Weaver, careful, you're going to convince me that the crazy first few weeks of romantic love are a good idea again. And we can't have that, now can we? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm going to grill steaks with HoFS tonight. Y'all can come over if you want. And we could have margaritas. Why margaritas? Well, as my brother said, "What's wrong with the icemaker?!? Nothing -- as long as you want three or four margaritas every night."
Let's do steak shish-ka-bobs with baby portabello shrooms, eggplant, tomaters, peppers. Yum!
I love margaritas, shaken not blended. Had a really good wine in Green Bay, Old Vine Zinfindel (red). It wasn't sweet like I thought Zinfindel's were, it was absolutely, mouth watering, delicious.
Oooooh, that would be so much fun! I ahve Paige this weekend and we'll have some fun too, don't know what yet though.
I hope it's o.k. to post this here, as I'm not a "usual" around the campfire. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
JustJ, I just wanted to say that I think you show tremendous grace under fire. I appreciate that kind'a thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, you make me jealous! I love a good Old Vine Zin, and haven't had one in ages. The shishkabobs sound fantastic. I'm gonna do Real Simple tonight: Steak with seasoning, corn on the cob, watermelon, red wine (because I forgot to get beer), and smooches.
I think I may sit on HoFS' lap the entire time and feed him morsel by morsel. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
AtPeace, you and everyone are more than welcome 'round the campfire. Thanks for coming over! And thank you for the compliment. It has taken me many years to be able to respond calmly in most situations, and it's still hard sometimes. I've learned that the most important thing is to get grounded before you say anything.
But calling me Grace? Dear me. Y'all never saw the spectacular tumble from the first weekend HoFS was back in my life, that's for sure! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have finally gotten to a point where I really feel like it is better that I do not reconcile. XW has done plenty to warrant that feeling (in all respects)(ironic word choice there). We are still in the same house. Different rooms. As I was headed to my room last night, I heard her talking to "somebody from work". For 30 minutes or more. The part of the conversation I heard included her explaining her favorite dish and restaurant.
It does not hurt like it once did.
But it does.
If it were not for the kids - I could do without seeing her again. But I love her mom and her dad, and her sister, and her family.
My wife died over two years ago. The woman I call XW is not her.
Dude - if she treated you like mine treated me - be glad she is having kids with someone else. (I know - that's harsh...)
I love my kids and I think that it is important that their mom is a big part of their life. It is now very complicated.
What do I tell a woman when I meet one (yea, right. Like that is gonna happen !) that I find interesting, and wanna go have a coke?
FAR, I don't know how you do it, being in the house with her. I know you place your children's needs before your own.
I shouldn't talk about my ex. It's been too long. But like yours... she was bad. I still haven't figured out where to put her, so she bounces around endlessly in my mind and never sticks anywhere. It's crazy-making.
My band had a semi-fun outdoor gig yesterday. At an art fair. A little chaotic, no official sound guy, the whole experience. I love playing outside because you can really turn UP.
To make you smile...my 16 year old called me Saturday morning to play the guit fiddle over the phone to me. You'd like Z. You have similar souls I think.
My main acoustic, which my father bought in 1961, was badly in need of repairs. She'd never been taken to a shop, ever, in 45 years, and the last 20 of those years she was played almost daily.
The guitar was in the shop for six months. Got it back on Saturday.
The repairs cost more than most new guitars, but it's a valuable instrument.
Daddy. It's haaaaaard to put down. It's never played like this before. It's huge.
I think that affairees that go off and get married like that and have families (even in cases like theirs where there already WAS one) never learn the difference between romantic and real love. They think that the romantic love is all there is, and since that's often so fragile a construct (especially for people in selfish persuit of their own "happiness" at any cost), they have 2 pile on responsibilities - like new family - 2 prove their commitment (2 themselves as much as their FOP [I love being able 2 use that acronym!]). In the long haul, it could be an unbearable burden - unless the FAee's can avoid deep thoughts indefinitely (which some do manage).
In your xW's case, it's hard 2 imagine sustaining the fairy tale with the constant reminders (in the form of car4love's kids) that they destroyed a family 2 persue their happiness. But who knows? Maybe they'll manage 2 beat the odds? Yeah, right.
FAR: I can sympathize. My W and I are back 2 sleeping in the same bed 2gether these days, though we've not been intimate in a while now (and I can't imagine it). Since she got back from OOSP last weekend, she's been friendlier than over the last 2ple of months. I get a faint sense that she's finally starting 2 realize what she stands 2 lose. But since it's no sweat off my stones 2 be kind (not 'nice') 2 her, I continue being kind. Firmer, and vocally though, about what I'll tolerate.
One thing I noticed even more this time than previously, when she'd been gone, was that I wasn't looking forward 2 her re2rning home. And so, when she's goes 2 teach her field class in 12 days, I most assuredly plan 2 enjoy my time alone while she's gone.
"Doing things" the way I have done them, has been beneficial for me and my family in the long haul, but it's not an approach I'd ever recommend for someone younger than I, or in a shorter term marriage than mine (30 years), or dealing with a shorter, though more "full blown" affair than my W's was. I can definitely see the love bank draining now. And for those for which that's a concern, I would recommend some method approach in dealing with that before it's empty. But in my case I think that I can re-fill it if and when my W truly commits 2 our M and 2 NC. At this point, though she's "nice" again, she's done neither.
One thing I'd like to add is that the common theme here seems to be "searching for that illusive happiness from without".
All your wives (or xw's as the case may be) were never that happy as individuals or as a 2unit (2long's term)...and they never realized that you cannot find happiness that way, nor can you love...not truly.
I've said it before on here and I really believe that when things come too easily for people who are on the self-centered side of the spectrum to begin with they look for ways to destroy, so that they can rebuild.
Your wives all had pretty easy lives with husband's who were faithful, hardworking and loving...when what they needed was a struggle. So they went out and found what they need for their soul growth work.
My little sister just re-afirmed this for me in telling me that when she remarried her husband (after she divorced him while in an affair/bar hopping mode) he took her back too soon, and way too easily.
15 years later, 15 years of her being miserable albeit remarried to him she finally "gets" it.
She said she would have gotten it a lot sooner if she had had to work to get him back...maybe suffered a little.
She's getting it now, but only because she can no longer stand her own unhappiness.
Gray, in your ex's world, she is not going to be happy and I fear that before this is all said and done her life is going to get pretty bad... unfortunately she will have a new baby which will suffer the consequences unless she can come to terms with what they have done.
You and car4love's happiness is on the horizon now...I don't think the ex's is.
And I take no pleasure in saying that, regardless of the pain they have caused. No one wins in affairs, as we say around here...everyone pays the piper eventually, even if their pain gets hidden in substance abuse, illness, accidents, financial ruin...an inability to self-actualize or find inner peace.
I feel sorry for people I see like that and I wonder what it was they never came to terms with. What amends, both internally and externally were they not able to make...what forgiveness both internal and external were they not able to give.
I used 2 wonder if certain WSs, particularly those in either LTAs or serial cheaters, have a screw loose or something that allows or enables the A 2 happen and go "unchecked" by facing reality. Never mind whether I could have done "more" 2 help my W face the consequences of her choices (I don't really believe that any lessons I could "impart" would have helped at all, or changed the pace of her growth, such as it has been, at all - she needs 2 choose 2 learn from her experiences and at her own pace, period).
These days, I wonder if it might be a whole bucket of bolts missing, or an entire hardware store inventory that hasn't been counted in a while...
Weaver, having been on that side of things, as well as on "this" side, I think your observation is one of the truest of any I've read. The "fight," the struggle to learn and grow and become, is important to all of us. Male or female, we must all have challenges in our worlds in order to truly grow.
I don't like all of the things that I've done in my life. A few of them I name "sins," and I don't do that lightly. I believe that those things were truly evil, and evil that I knowingly committed.
And I also know that something in them was desperately important.
I hope that I have learned from those destructive and insanely beautiful things that I did. I never want to have to go to those lengths to learn and grow ever again.
Not that I'm in2 numerology or anything, but I just had 2 2uote this verse from this song by Genesis 2day:
"VI. APOCALYPSE in 9/8 (CO-STARRING THE DELICIOUS TALENTS OF GABBLE RATCHET)" - Genesis
"666 is no longer alone. He's getting out the marrow in your backbone. And the seven trumpets blowing sweet rock and roll, Gonna blow right down inside your soul. Pythagoras with the looking-glass, reflecting the full moon. In blood, he's writing the lyrics of a brand new tune."
Regarding the "happiness is impossible for affair partners" thesis:
I'm not convinced, though I'd prefer to live in a world where it's true.
Take someone off the street. Tell them people who have affairs and abandon their families and loved ones cannot be happy. Know what you'll probably hear?
"Well, my [relative] has been married to his/her AP for [large number] years, and they're pretty happy."
I'm glad for what happened to me. I'm glad that I was brought to my knees and forced to undergo a complete examination of myself and my life, and all choices I have made.
I am a person so much better than I was, and I wouldn't switch places for anything in the world with someone who has not had to examine and change about themselves what I have.
I have been blessed in ways I cannot explain because I was hurt in the ways I was.
This is the difference Gray, and why I feel incredibly happy and at peace...I have learned fogiveness both of myself and of others.
If no one had ever hurt me, how would I have learned to forgive? Why would I have ever had to look within? Why would I have ever had to learn to be happy inspite of what was "done" to me, or what was not given to me?
I have one couple I am friends with, I was friends with them before they married each and were married to other people. They were, before they retired, very high up in the government agency I work with...and both were profoundly unhappy in their marriages. They both tried very hard for years to make it work. Her husband was an abusive alcoholic type and his wife was a self-centered nasty little materialistic type.
When he left his wife, he actually had to take a three month leave from work he was so distraught over his decision to divorce. He had begged her to go to counseling when he found himself falling for his female co-worker and she refused, as she had for their entire marriage.
My female friend also tried for years to get her husband to go to counseling and he laughed at her for it.
Yes, in their case I believe they are happy now, thank God!
But they underwent much personal struggle to get to the decision to divorce their spouses and marry each other. It was in my opinion, and most who know them and their ex's, the only responsible and self-loving choice they could have made.
It wasn't a claim they made, it was an observation from years of knowing them both and watching them struggle through bad marriages.
I know what you are saying though Gray, as all affair partners would make this claim from a perspective of self-justification and re-writing marital history.
My friend is an incredible person who left work every night and went home and cried silently...for years.
And he begged his wife for years to get counseling with him.
It was not a decision taken lightly or from a place of adultress fog.
And I would bet that neither one of their ex-spouses have yet looked within to examine why their ex's left them. I would bet they are still living it up at the bar's telling everyone who would listen what jerks the ones who left were.
I shouldn't have posted their story here on this board, but you asked why then if guilt always seeks punishment are some people happily remarried...well, I just wanted to give the one example I know of where it worked out.
To be fair, there are people in abusive marriages who would probably be much happier if they were out of them and married to someone who was not abusive.
That's one of the things that bothers me about advice given on this web site. We usually only hear one side.
There is a difference between abuse and being ignored. There is also a difference between those who try for years to fix their marriage but fall into an affair, and those that leave on a whim (or whatever you want to call it) the instant something bad happens in their life.
One of the big problems is what Gray said - "who wouldn't make this claim?
Most who end up in affairs tell the same story -
It's interresting to me that 2longs W still brings up that she felt ignored 15 years ago as to why she needs to have RM as a friend now. There are times when it's easy to see fog for what it is.
I think we need more time around the campfire. Maybe I'll go camping.
So I mostly worry about myself and not too much what others are up to anymore.
If I had an abusive alcoholic spouse I would not have tried as long to make it work as she did. I wuold not have gone home every night and cried...I would have left years earlier than she did.
But I believe more in personal responsibility than I do marriage at any cost.
I have a resonsibility to be a beacon of light for my family as well as the strangers I meet. How could I do that if my spouse was sucking that light right out of me?
And he did not try to destroy his pregnant wife and young toddler, his children were grown...years he suffered and tried to make it work with her.
Are you proposing SS, save a marriage at any cost? At even the cost of yourself?
To be fair, there are people in abusive marriages who would probably be much happier if they were out of them and married to someone who was not abusive.
That's one of the things that bothers me about advice given on this web site. We usually only hear one side.
There is a difference between abuse and being ignored. There is also a difference between those who try for years to fix their marriage but fall into an affair, and those that leave on a whim (or whatever you want to call it) the instant something bad happens in their life.
One of the big problems is what Gray said - "who wouldn't make this claim?
Most who end up in affairs tell the same story -
It's interresting to me that 2longs W still brings up that she felt ignored 15 years ago as to why she needs to have RM as a friend now. There are times when it's easy to see fog for what it is.
I think we need more time around the campfire. Maybe I'll go camping.
SS
Yes, that is the point I was trying to make. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
We posted at the same time, so I didn't see this when I questioned your previous statement...sorry.
Weaver - The lady I was quoting was first married to a good friend of mine. He and I grew up together.
When they divorced she told the Judge (and reporter friend of mind looked up the court records and told me what the transcripts said) that he was good to her, and provided for her, and didn't abuse her, but she just didn't love him, and wanted to divorce.
That's why I said what I said about her. She later moved into the same neighborhood as my cousin, who didn't know the story, but made some observations that tell me the water may be really shallow where this gal is concerned.
Turns out several of my best friends knew all this sparrow news before I did. Certainly car4love has known for a long time and went out of her way to not tell me, to keep me safe. Possibly people here even knew. Others were trying to decide when to tell me. My band knew but I found out from someone else before they could spill it. They were surprisingly sympathetic tonight.
Weaver, I have a feeling you're right about the future not being bright for my ex. Tonight it suddenly felt true and inevitable, and I felt so sad for her. But sparrow took a family apart. Two families. If she winds up hurting, she's got it coming.
Sparrow and tinman got married six months ago. The person who saw her a week or so ago said she's very pregnant. There's the gossip.
I used 2 wonder if certain WSs, particularly those in either LTAs or serial cheaters, have a screw loose or something that allows or enables the A 2 happen and go "unchecked" by facing reality. Never mind whether I could have done "more" 2 help my W face the consequences of her choices (I don't really believe that any lessons I could "impart" would have helped at all, or changed the pace of her growth, such as it has been, at all - she needs 2 choose 2 learn from her experiences and at her own pace, period).
These days, I wonder if it might be a whole bucket of bolts missing, or an entire hardware store inventory that hasn't been counted in a while...
-ol' 2long
2Long - man you hit the nails, screws, bolts, and all other fasteners on the head. I think, especially with a serial cheater, that there is way more askew than I can understand. I am JUST NOW beginning to realize that even me - our marriage - is part of a pattern in XW's life. She finds a person that makes her feel good about herself and gives her whole self to them. She seems to agonize about the relationships when they are over - but man she moves on.
I'm trying to do some catch up reading and don't even know how far to go back...
You all are talking about profound things... things I have been mulling over in my head lately (again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ).
I was driving home from work this evening, knowing I would be alone for a few hours (my H works late on Wednesdays)... and a pervasive feeling of sadness overcame me. Sadness isn't really the right word, but I can't think of another that describes the feeling better.
I knew I would come here, to check in with a discussion I'm having with Daisy on Recovery... and for the first time in a long time I thought I would begin a serious thread, about the long-term consequences of affairs. Not as a FBS, but as a FWS.
I have finally come to a point, I think, of not beating myself up... yet... the consequences are still there... the relationships I lost, mostly. The ending of the marriage notwithstanding, my affair put wedges in a couple of my relationships that the divorce solidified, if that makes sense.
I miss my former people. Some have died and I wasn't there to comfort ... or to be comforted. Like my exH's grandfather... when he passed, I lost something, too, but felt (feel) I have no right to grieve.
I guess all I want to add to this conversation (about WS's actions and karma and all that) is that even the most remorseful WS's (as I was) who have done absolutely everything possible to make amends (which I have) reap what is (was) sown. Unless someone is truly mentally ill, I believe that in their quiet moments, they know. New marriages, new babies, new friendships... perhaps provide a level of comfort... but what really matters is what is INSIDE a person.
It's been seven years since I first logged into MB as a FBS and an almost-current WS who had just spent the summer tying to get rid of the OM. A long time ago, to be sure. One would think these thoughts would pass... and they do... mostly...
::::
Anyway, I hope you'll all forgive me for going on... as I say, it's been an emotional time for me: my second H's and my five year anniversary is this month, one daughter is getting married this summer, H's daughter is graduating high school, and there are some huge life changes for my H and me (all good, but still stressful)...
Hey nb! Been thinking about you and hoping you would join in.
Quote
Unless someone is truly mentally ill, I believe that in their quiet moments, they know.
I was once mean to a little girl in fifth grade with me, mean to the point of getting all the other little kids to give cooty bugs to each other against her.
Because I grew up on AFB's and moved almost every year I cannot remember her name (just the nick-name we gave her)...
this has haunted me my entire life since, to the point of crying for her pain as an adult and not being able to contact her to tell her how very, very sorry I am.
Not a small example of what you are talking about, but very big because I hurt a little girl, even though I was but a little girl too.
We offer forgiveness to ourselves and silently ask for forgiveness from those we have hurt.
Yes, I know of your sadness. We all do, in some form or another.
Oh weaver, that little girl... I know exactly what you mean.
It brings to mind something that I've been wrestling with...
Although I truly believe that everyone... in their quiet moments... knows... (as I said)... why is it that some people (who don't seem particularly mentally ill)... can go on as if nothing happened. I bet hundreds of people who might read this post of yours would think, "Yes, I was cruel to a child once"... as kids often are... and NOT carry a pain as profound as the one you describe.
I guess it's not for me to question why. (But I do)
I have been called highly sensitive, and in fact, a "disorder" (though I hate calling it that - a way overused word) exists... and I have all the "symptoms" of it...
I care. Am I disordered? (A rhetorical question)
:::: (many sighs)
In the midst of all this pondering... I made a discovery... an unexpected discovery...
It's a long story, this story about my grandmother... who passed in early 2005, and who was... everything to me. We were so close, and so alike... I miss her. Anyway, after she passed, my mother gave me her watch. They'd replaced the batteries several months before... and though my grandmother could no longer tell time (she was 93 with dementia)... she always wanted to wear it. In fact, she was wearing it when she died. So, this watch, which I have put in a place of honor (along with some other things of hers that I cherish) has run for the entire 16 months since her death... and it brought me comfort.
Gray, this child who the Sparrow is carrying. Is it going to weigh on you, or set you free? What's it going to do to that eyebrow of yours? I would like to know. I think you have a little choice in the matter, though maybe not as much as you'd like. (Or at least, not as much as I would like to have when I confront my own reactions to things.)
And here's a hug for you, one that I couldn't give you in April because I didn't know then. But I did know before you did, and yes, I think that's odd. I've sat and wondered whether to tell you, though I was told with the caveat that I not tell you.
I wonder, too, at the number of people who chose not to tell you about it -- and about their reasoning. Is it simply that we universally believe that this news is so large that it needs to be told in a specific way, by specific people? I don't know. I need to think about it.
I do know that I'm glad there are so many people who care about you.
And I would very much like to hear you play that guitar. I wonder. What does a song for a child who comes into the world in a situation like that one look like?
I'm thinking of my cousins. They were, years ago, two tiny girls thrown into the chaos of my aunt's second marriage. Her abusive, immature husband took the younger one out of her arms as she got on a plane to go to India for six months. That one was three months old at the time. She died in a car crash 17 years later, having never quite become solidly connected to anything or anyone.
The older one is an attorney now. She lives in NYC, far away from the places of her childhood. Her older half-sister, a cousin I'm very close to, has made that same choice. Their brother (half and whole, depending on where you stand) lives in my uncle's basement in Wisconsin. He is schizophrenic and has diabetes, self-medicates on huge doses of his prescription meds and pot, and nearly died recently, because of the havoc all these things have played with his body.
All this, it seems to me, out of the insanity of their parents' choices. Not just infidelity, though that was certainly part of it. Also joining a cult, extensive drug use, weird unproven (and often unsafe) medical practices, severe abuse, and a host of other addictions contribute to that mess.
Each of the younger generation faces his or her own dead ends. The choices of the previous generation lead, very quickly, to a younger generation that does not have the tools to survive very well.
My own parents are the only ones of their college friends and siblings who have remained married. Both of their parents divorced. My dad never really knew his father. My mom's father was on his third marriage (and was, to all accounts, happy in it) with my grandmother for the 22 or so years until his death. After that, my grandmother was left with my mom in college and two younger children at home. And there was insanity there, unregulated by my grandfather's extraordinarily calming presence.
My family isn't all that unusual, though it's true that few people divorced in the 1930s and 1940s when my grandparents were doing it.
Three and four generations later, I'm left wondering. What songs do we give to the children who come into such messy and troubling circumstances? What empathy and understanding?
I'm not sure. It just seems like there's a song there.
32 years ago, I was working as a pump jockey at a gas station (we ac2ally put gas in people's tanks FOR them in those days!).
We hired a new guy who looked vaguely familiar 2 me, but I couldn't place him. His rusty old Chevy panel truck had Alaska plates on it, where he said he'd just come from, so I was pretty sure I didn't know him - he just looked familiar.
He was a pleasant guy 2 work with. Quiet most of the time, but considerate of others and thoughtful when he did speak up.
I knew his first name was Joe (his shirt told me that), but didn't know his last name, until we started talking on a slow weekend day we were on shift 2gether. Got talking about HS. I told him where I'd gone, and he said he'd gone 2 the same school. I hadn't figured he was local because he said he'd come from Alaska, but he said he'd gone up there after HS 2 work on the pipeline for a 2ple years. I still couldn't place him, though, so I asked what his last name was.
When he told me, I almost fell out of my chair with surprise. I knew him alright, but didn't recognize him because the guy I was working with was a perfect 180 from the major jerk, bully, [censored] I'd known in school. He didn't even really wear his hair or look different, but his behavior and manner were so different I didn't recognize him.
I think I worked with him for several months, before he found something else and moved on. That was a pretty cool time, and a cool experience. I'd like 2 think that a number of other such jerks 2rned out 2 be good folk with time.
Which reminds me. That abusive, immature husband has matured a great deal. Three marriages later, he has four living children and one who died. His living children include one with severe rheumatoid arthritis (she had both hips replaced when she was 15 or so) and another with some kind of developmental issues. One of his exwives (my aunt) died several years ago of a brain tumor and a broken heart. That kind of thing will force you to grow up, I think.
His second ex-wife is someone who was first his best friend, then his affair partner, then his wife, and finally his ex. His new wife? I don't know her. I hear that the various siblings and siblings-in-common (as they call each other when they're not actually related by blood, but rather by a series of marriages) think the match is flawed.
He's a divorce attorney. He tries to mediate cooperative divorces, whatever those are.
My other uncle, my aunt's first husband, has been married four times now. The first was my aunt. The second was a really nice woman who couldn't take his ways. Their marriage was cold cold cold. The third was hot -- and that wife died of breast cancer that became brain cancer. The fourth is a gambling addict with two children -- one mentally unstable and the other an addict.
Both of these men, in spite of their manifold flaws, stood up and spoke with wisdom and surprising compassion about the wife they had in common -- at her funeral. And they shared the amusement that, perhaps, only ex-spouses of the same spouse can ever share.
"Yup," one of them said to the other. And they laughed. Not meanly, but with affection for each other and for the exwife they were burying that day, and with love for the many children (13 or 14, I think) that between them they've fathered or step-fathered.
Gray, this child who the Sparrow is carrying. Is it going to weigh on you, or set you free?
Both, I think, though I'm still absorbing it. J, I can go back and forth for hours.
It weighs on me 'cause it's another bolt in what's often felt like the Perfect Storm. I suspect lots of BS share this feeling: the events of the last two years that were personally, privately painful for me seemed like heat-seeking missiles that sought out my most significant hurts and insecurities and doubts about myself and tunneled into me at just those spots and confirmed all the doubts. No matter how many times I tried to be convinced that this wasn't about me, it never failed to feel as if it was. The pregnancy news was that way, especially when I first received it.
It weighs because that babydaddy will always be a part of my ex's life in a way that I never can, and that's another humiliation. There's nothing to prevent my former wife from forgetting me altogether.
It weighs because when my wife left, even though she was having an affair and discarding me, I promised to always be a friend to her, and that's a promise I broke. I know how much this hurt her. I heard her cries and fought to not be moved by them. I was trying to be fiercely compassionate. And I did something similar, but more harsh, right before the divorce. In a matter of weeks she was pregnant.
I know, she was making the choices.
Most of all, the new news weighs on me because I am, kind of for the first time, convinced that sparrow is not going to be happy, and I can't stop thinking of her being caught in that maze of guilt and regret.
As far as being set free...
The pain I feel for Jennifer is suddenly much larger and louder than the pain I feel for myself. That's a big change. It's not any more pleasant, but it seems better somehow.
Though...
On the other hand...
A friend wrote me this message:
I don't feel sad for her at all. She is probably happier than sh*t about it all.
Can this be?
What's it going to do to that eyebrow of yours?
I'm not sure.
And here's a hug for you, one that I couldn't give you in April because I didn't know then. But I did know before you did, and yes, I think that's odd.
Thanks. I'm grateful to you for keeping your word. I got the news unceremoniously from someone who was being, let's face it, kind of brain-dead about it, but car4love tells me the due date looms. Sparrow was pregnant before the ink on our divorce was dry. It's better that I found out late. I'm better equipped to handle it, though I'm still bobbling the catch a bit.
I do know that I'm glad there are so many people who care about you.
GC, is this what the growling has been about? How long have you known? We have awfully big shoulders around these parts ya know! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Gray, in your ex's world, she is not going to be happy and I fear that before this is all said and done her life is going to get pretty bad... unfortunately she will have a new baby which will suffer the consequences unless she can come to terms with what they have done.
And if she loves that baby as much as most of us mother's do the realization of the pain she visited upon car4love is going to be huge.
There's another possible factor 2 consider here, of a kind that I'm not usually prone 2 ponder...
car4love was pregnant when the A started. Tinman's attention span, or maybe it's "affection span" is pretty short. How long before he moves on yet again?
And if she loves that baby as much as most of us mother's do the realization of the pain she visited upon car4love is going to be huge.
It's true, when we become mothers (father's too) we become mothers to the entire world. We change.
Gray, it's not too late to say what you need to say to sparrow, if you need to say something to her. We've talked about this before, and maybe it is silent words you need to send her... it's such a personal thing but I know you hurt because you feel you hurt her. I don't think you did really, and I'm sure she doesn't think you did, but it's what you feel that matters. I can't harbor resentment anymore than I can carry guilt so maybe you need to do what I did, I don't know.
Too sensitive n_b, no never, just closer to our realization of how connected we are all. ACIM says that all attacks on others are really attacks on ourselves. Sensitive people merely feel the pain sooner than the more seemingly disconnected ones do, or maybe in a different way.
I hope that the tinman has some inner changes in that this family is not abandoned/destroyed (I hate to use the term destroyed because it sounds so "for forever more", which it isn't, they will rise above) he did his last one...
Becomming a parent didn't do it for him the first time around...yuck, what a sad subject.
2long, your coworker at the gas station years ago sounds like the kind of person one would like to know and reminds me of something, but I can't recall what. LOL
I have a gas station right by my house where they still pump our gas, we can't pump our own gas there in fact. And I have a little store a block or so from me where everyone in the 'hood walks to to get milk or a bottle of beer, and all the penny candy you can stuff in your pockets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
GC - I'm so sorry. When I hear all the "Brangelina" yuck in the media my heart just hurts for anyone in the same situation. More so than almost all other instances of infidelity.
I knew too - with the same caveat as Just J not to say anything.
No matter what, though, you'll continue to grow and bloom and prosper. Truly, you are a human being of honor and courage.
We'd love to come and hear your band sometime this summer. I'll email you to get your schedule.
I'm listening to Bocelli's "Romanza" while I clean the house tonight. If you heard this CD you'd think you died and went to heaven...it is that good. It's one of his older ones but still my favorite, check it out sometime, I think you'll like it.
When we were in Green Bay we went to a really nice piano bar and they were playing Chris Botti whenever the piano player would break, and GB fell in love with him. Appy would know who he is, being a jazz lover.
n_b to answer your question to me, I am dating only GB now...and he is still the cat's meow, in my book. And I am in love with his city.
We did go through many things those five days J, and I saw him not get angry, and not get upset over a few things which would have had a lot of guys in a rage...he is pretty special. It was among the best five days I have spent in many, many years aside from family things, I felt like I was home.
I honestly cannot imagine the level of pain and humiliation you feel. I can read it, and absorb it, and feel it in a way that sensitive people do, but it's not the same thing. I am so sorry for the pain that YOU are carrying.
I would like to encourage you to use your art (your music) as a healing tool. I wish I could play music, though I have my own art and am grateful for it.
weaver, good to hear that life with your new man is sweet, peaceful, gentle and wonderful.
Just J and Voldemort, I miss you. Glad to see both of you here.
2long, your gas station guy story also touched me... in the opposite way than I expected, since he was the bully grown up. It gives me hope for a young man I know who is a very big bully... he's had a bad example set by a parent who uses bullying behavior... and I'm scared for him.
As usual, thank you everyone for allowing me into this safe little haven of MB. My life, of late, has been filled with ups and downs -- mostly of the emotional variety. The balance feels very near, close enough to touch. Reading and writing here has helped to link together some thoughts and actions that were feeling unconnected.
It doesn't always work that way, though. I know a sad story as well, about a kid that lived next door 2 us at our previous house. Was 14 when we moved in. He was very outgoing, and mowed our lawn for a 2ple years - until his friends got him in2 drugs and alcohol.
He got his GF pregnant by the time he was 18, married her and tried 2 make a living with help from his folks. But he couldn't stop drinking and wrecking the family cars. He and his cousin went out drinking and driving one night when he was 21 or so, and took a 35mph curve in a residential street at something approaching 100mph - or they tried 2. It was a warm summer night, and he was in the passenger seat on the outside of the curve. He had his arm on the window sill when the car rolled. He bled 2 death before help could arrive. He left behind a young widow and 2 or 3 small kids.
The horrible memories often try 2 intrude on our peace. But when they do I make special efforts 2 recall the happy memories, like my friend at the gas station who I wouldn't have given the time of day 2 just 3 years earlier.
I wish the news media would pay more mind 2 those stories.
I think at our age, we begin to piece together all the puzzle pieces that we've been collecting through the years... and we can see things in a more complete way.
If I just think about the kids I went to high school with... now... jeepers... nearly 30 years ago... (actually 30 next year!)... I've kept in touch with a couple, both lovely women who have struggled so much. One very popular in high school, one an outcast drama nerd who never quite felt right in her skin. The popular one nearly died with cancer when she was 33, but survived and thrived. But she was dealt blow after blow personally. The other one became (and is at this time) a profound artist who has showings all over the world (she now lives in France)... and has had her share of heartbreaks, as we all have, but for the most part, seems to have crafted a nice life for herself.
I don't know why I say this stuff... just writing out loud, I guess...
The two men you mentioned... one turned out good, one let the pain overtake him, and maybe had problems so big that nobody ever understood... who knows? These are the kinds of "why" questions I'm fond of asking God about (He never answers these types of questions, which I find really annoying - LOL).
2 change the subject a bit, and still follow the campfire/MB theme, I had an interesting epiphany this morning on my way in 2 work.
I had just had 2 paint out graffiti on the carriage shed door, so I was late getting going.
I think I was reflecting on how I felt about that - I've probably had 2 do that a 2ple dozen times since we bought our house 9 years ago. At first, it made me hopping mad 2 have 2 find that as I was leaving (the carriage shed is in the hill below our house, and on the way out 2 the street below ours). But these days, I have my cans of paint colors (there are 5 of them for the carriage shed alone!) all lined up in the garage, and a box of cheap brushes that I can use and toss in the trash when I'm done - so it usually only takes me 15 minutes or so 2 paint it over. And so, I'm only mildly inconvenienced by the distraction. And the irony is that, since they tag it at night, I've usually painted it out before they are likely 2 have gotten out of bed the next morning. So, I win! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And not just because I paint it out, but mostly because it doesn't phase me so much anymore.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I had another epiphany this morning, right after the first one but whole 'nother subject...
...Sitting at the light waiting 2 take a left 2rn, I saw this pretty young hispanic gal crossing the street and wating at the light for the next crossing.
I remember thinking, what a beautiful gal she is. And I started thinking about something Greg Baer says in his "The Truth About Relationships" book about what's really going on in a man's haid when he admires a pretty girl... ...and I realized I wasn't thinking anything inappropriate at all. From her mannerisms - even the way she pushed the button repeatedly for the crossing sign (made me giggle, 'cause I do that ALL the time with elevators and crossing signs!), I could tell she was in a cheerful mood and on a mission. I had no thoughts of "having" her, just thought what a pleasant little snippet of the life and times of a particular intersection in SoCal.
The light changed, I made my 2rn, and she crossed the street.
...and it's 2rning in2 a nice afternoon, now that the marine layer is finally clearing out...
So, I win! And not just because I paint it out, but mostly because it doesn't phase me so much anymore.
And also because you admire the beauty of it all...kids having fun, perfecting their craft, trying to drive you nuts...it's all good, and all part of this crazy, beautiful, wonderful life.
n_b,
I stopped asking God why when I realized that He doesn't even know about all this craziness down here, and that was when I started loving life again. Strange but true, now the why doesn't seem so important to me...I know it is all part of a perfect plan that we have chosen for ourselve's and someday we will never know pain again, our's or anothers.
I know that and it brings me an incredible amount of happiness.
My truth only, but yanno... it's a good truth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Thanks for sharing, 2long. It is good to have you here by the fire.
Gray. mmmmmm. I will pray for you, brother.
I will pray for a song. That song.
I have been pondering the last few days - children.
XW had her tubes tied after the last child. 3 beautiful kids.
I have no desire to have any more. But I was just wandering through my wondering about the future woman in my life (who I have started praying for), and wondered about the possibility of she wanting kids with me.
The perspective of a child creating a lifelong, unchanging bond is interesting.
I love my kids. I love that XW is their mother. She has flaws. GOD KNOWS I have flaws.
I wondered how she would feel if I had more kids, and now she can not.
I love the campfire.
I have recently spent some time on another forum (a shopping forum, sortof), and it really contrasts the quality of people in MB, and here at the fire.
All of you people are special.
Thanks for being my friend.
Gray - you have a lot of neat people who care for you.
Peace, brother. That is my prayer for you. And music. (which sometimes comes not from peace.....)
But I was just wandering through my wondering about the future woman in my life (who I have started praying for),
That's what I did too FAR, and the man I am dating said he did as well. He prayed and imagined me into his life.
I made a list of exactly the qualities I wanted, and then I went a step further and wrote down what my ideal relationship would look like. And then I worked on myself so I could be someone worthy of that relationship.
My list looked like this:
Must love children Spiritual Laughs easily Hardworking Handy A good dad, brother, son Creative Adore my daughter and me Must be kind
And he is all of the above. He is not musical although he loves music, and he is artistic in landscaping and in his gardens.
Keep praying FAR and visualizing what you want your future R and life to look like and it will happen.
"build it and they will come" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I, too, envisioned a man -- one who came into my life like a thunderstorm soon thereafter. I'm glad I did it.
I am very happy with the man who came into the doorway when I finally opened the door.
One thing that has always been a puzzle to me, though, is how I draw to me people who are not interested in kids.
I have a suspicion that it's because of my own history and status. I have a condition called Premature Ovarian Failure (POF). It basically means that my ovaries don't function -- they're shriveled up to about the size of currents (they should looke more like grapes) and act exactly like the ovaries of someone who's been through menopause. They've been like that, near as I can figure, since I started to go through puberty. In fact, I didn't exactly go through puberty the way most girls would. My breasts and other female characteristics didn't develop nearly the way they should have, and instead my body slumped into the kind of slaggy plump that, well, a 60 year old woman would have. I also developed osteopenia, another old-person's condition, and various other things.
I was 28 when I finally got a clear diagnosis -- my own resistance to further invasive testing, as well as a medical community that doesn't expect to see this stuff in children that age, meant that I went undiagnosed for a very long while.
That matters only slightly, because there isn't a lot that can be done. For the last ten years I've been on hormone replacement therapy, which allowed my breasts and hips to grow into a more standard female shape (though I'm still not curvy like that by any stretch of the imagination! just pudgy). That and lots of weight-bearing exercise, and lots of calcium, has helped the osteopenia quite a bit. There's still the ongoing higher risk of heart disease -- estrogen levels significantly affect the body's production of cholesterol.
Dear me, I've gotten off track. All of that is something of an aside to the main point I was going to make -- POF also, of course, means that my body does not produce eggs. As near as I can figure, I've ovulated maybe three or four times in my life, and the last time was more than 15 years ago. (I didn't realize until I was 34 or 35 that I had had hot flashes since I was 14 or 15. I thought everyone was like that!)
So.
The whole issue of having babies has been something of a non-standard journey for me. When I was 16 years old, I figured that I would adopt babies or take care of neices and nephews. And somewhere in there, I internalized a message that is, perhaps, impossible for a 16 year old NOT to get in a situation like this one: "You are defective. Not a real woman. Not worthy. Broken."
Out of that came a lot of things. Try adding that to the first hesitant attempts at understanding sexuality and (at that time) boys when you're a fat, nerdy girl with coke-bottle glasses. First you shut down and become completely asexual. Then, when a boy finally notices you (much later), you think you're only lovable when you have sex. You decide that since you can't have babies, you don't need condoms or birth control. (Thank god this was in the early days of the AIDS epidemic.) And when you fall in love with a woman at the ripe old age of 22, you allow as how you needed eggs AND sperm to get the job done, so it really doesn't matter which one you start with.
And from there, my experiences with polyamory may be more understandable than they usually are.
So here I am, more than 20 years since that entire arc of experiences began. I have a daughter, one who I got to "pick" both egg and sperm donors for. (And no, I do not think of my ex as just an egg donor. But it's the right term for how I put together the elements necessary for me to have a daughter.)
I want, very much, more children. There are no easy solutions to that problem.
If I had an embryo, I could probably carry it to term. My uterus works fine. If I had sperm, I could find an egg donor. If I had an egg, I could find a sperm donor. either way, I could make empbryos and probably carry them to term. It "just" takes money. Quite a bit of it, of course.
Or I could adopt. US or international? Open or closed? Infant or older child? Developmentally normal or some kind of disability? I'm 38 years old, single, and financially stable. It's possible that I would qualify, but not guaranteed.
And it takes more than that. I look at the struggle and stress of my life now and I know that I don't have the resources to raise more children by myself. Balancing DD, work, and time with HoFS is already hard enough.
And HoFS.
HoFS doesn't want more kids. He's got three of his own, and has plenty to do raising them. I've known that he didn't want more kids since the first time I met him. It's one of the reasons he didn't get involved with me a long time ago. One of the reasons we both looked for other people to be with.
It didn't work out that way, and we're together. And so now I'm faced with an even more impossible situation than before. I used to say it would take at least two miracles for me to get pregnant. Now? I think it would take four or five. I'm not laughing, God. I'm really not.
And so the one thing on the list that I envisioned -- loves kids, wants more of them -- seems to have shifted to my own unconscious belief that I am broken and unworthy.
Isn't that just.... wonderful? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And yet, that belief that I'm like that seems to be fading. It is slowly being transformed, perhaps because my age and my experiences are finally catching up to where my body has been all along. More and more, I find that I'm still the way I've always been -- and the women around me are starting to look more and more like me. I've looked this way for 20 years, so I have a little more experience of how to do the look well. More and more, I think I look like how women my age are supposed to look. More and more, I'm comfortable acting and being a woman.
And yet this one area still stands firm, apparently unresolvable.
More meditation and contemplation on it, I think. Miracles are, of course, always welcome.
I think this applies to Gray right now - and all of us at times.
An old Cherokee was teaching his grandchildren about life. He said to them, "A battle is raging inside me ... it is a terrible fight between two wolves. One wolf represents fear, anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority and ego. The other stands for joy, peace, love, hope, sharing, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, friendship, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."
The old man fixed the children with a firm stare. "This same fight is going on inside you, and inside every other person, too."
They thought about it for a minute and then one child asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"
The old Cherokee replied: "The one you feed."
Gray, you know what the wolves are inside of you - please keep feeding the right one. SS
That *is* a GREAT parable, SS. Thank you so much for sharing it... so very true.
weaver, I think the thread is gone. I was also checking in and had written once... something must've happened during the night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Everyone,I had a dream last night about my grandmother. It was so wierd... because in the dream... well, let me just tell it, and if anyone is in a dream-interpretation kinda mood, maybe you can help me understand it.
I am in my parent's basement - and it's filthy (which it soooooo ISN'T in real life. My mother cares very much about appearances and has a BEAUTIFUL home - including the fully finished basement).
My parents are home but I only see my dad. My kids are there, but I only see my oldest daughter. I see my sister. But I know everyone is there somewhere in the house... like a family party.
I am cleaning a bathroom counter, which is covered with dirt and hair. I stop for a moment and turn around. I notice a VCR and TV in the main room. I go to it and put the tape in. The TV comes on and begins to play snippets from holiday and other gatherings of the past.
I see myself when I was in my 20's, 30's... I'm laughing, but complaining about my hair (which is funny, because the only other thread I joined this week was about hair and how much I don't like my current style LOL). And I see other family but can't remember any of that now... just a feeling that I saw them.
I get the idea that my mother had been putting this tape together for my grandmother's funeral, as a tribute of some kind.
Suddenly, my grandmother's face is on the screen, a closeup, and she is saying something that I sense is very important, but it's all static-y and I can't hear what she's saying. Plus, the noise upstairs has become almost deafening. I am upset because I can't hear her words, but I can hear her voice. The tape stops and I go back into the bathroom with no thoughts of what any of it meant. I begin to clean again.
The end.
So, I have some thoughts -- the basement is probably my psyche (the deepness), and houses almost always mean "self". The dirt means some unfinished (yucky) business.
Other than that, I haven't given this a ton of thought (I will later, hopefully with your help)... I have tons to do today and my H's son is on his way, so I'll have a busy weekend.
Since her last illness and death, I have been keeping a journel (ETA: I originally wrote "journey" - fixed it for ease in reading, but thought it was interesting enough to note) with any dreams that have my grandmother in them -- and usually they are beautiful and she's telling me that she's watching over me and loves me. This one was so strange and different. I really want to know what it means.
And don't forget this is the week my grandmother's watch stopped, which I think *must* factor in somehow.
Well I don't know anything about dream interpretation, so can't help at all there. All I know is I'm glad you dream of her because you obviously loved her very much. I love dreaming about my parents.
As far as mug's thread, I am a more than a little annoyed because so many of us poured our hearts out on that thread...some darn good writing on that thread and I can't even find any of them using the search function.
My last post I poured my heart into.
Can the original poster delete an entire thread? Do the mods delete entire threads?
I agree it got a little troll'y at one point, but even then I don't like anyone except me disappearing my thoughts, and who can decide what is good and what is bad...what words can get through and help someone... and I imagine most people who put effort into their posts feel the same way.
Maybe she was trying to tell you to stop worrying about your hair, because you are beautiful!
Or maybe she was telling you to let it grow long, because a woman's hair is her crowning glory (hence you cleaning the throne), and that it is important to keep it shining clean...because when your hair shines the whole world shines!
Okay, some one else jump on in and interpret her dang dream now.
A guy wouldn't have a clue as to what this dream meant, I'm afraid n_b.
Thanks for the ideas! And you're probably right -- guys probably wouldn't be interested in interpreting my dreams, though a truly ENLIGHTENED guy might! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm thinking something deeper, but hey, I'm a deep thinker ALL THE TIME, ya know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
On the other recent subject: I also have poured my heart out on many threads throughout the years, including (if I remember correctly) MUG. I always hope that my cautionary tale will help guide someone away from the baddies in life, especially the ones WE PUT OURSELVES INTO. I guess the saying is true: Experience is the teacher. Too bad we humans don't learn more by EXAMPLE. At least, I rarely did.
I have no idea what happened to MUG's thread, but I do know that a member cannot delete an entire thread and a moderator won't do it unless there is something pretty bad in it... or at the originator's request, though not on a whim. Something must've happened. Something significant.
Anyway, I'll be working on my dream just because I think it's something I need to consider... I love dreams and take them as serious messages from my subconscience... which of course means that I *know* the meaning - somewhere inside.
The watch stopping, and the dream are about the same thing.
Your grandmothers "watch" is over. It's time for you to take over for your self. She was telling you things you already know, so it wasn't important for you to hear her. Deep in side, you know what to do. It remains for you to do it.
Don't get distracted by the problems of life. All of us have them, they are necessarry to cope with, but they are not essence of life. (your hair, cleaning the counter)
Don't let the noise drowned out your goals - or keep you from living your dreams. Don't let every day things keep you from doing what you know are the most impotant things.
While some of what you say resonates completely (and feels so right I think I'll just claim it! LOL)... some of it feels... not as right.
Today I may just have to really think about this. I've copied and pasted your responses (weaver's, too) onto a Word doc, so even if I can't get to it today, it's forever in computer-posterity (that doesn't mean "rear end" does it?).
Have a lovely Sunday, peoples, and see you later, or Wednesday or next weekend... I have a schedule now. LOL
Yeah, NBII, you can add it to your heap o'issues. But that's okay. It's a kinda cute heap, you know. We still love you.
Say, have you heard from Soulloss? I keep meaning to ask you and this is as good a place as any.
Oh, and NBII, you'll note that no one had much to say about my really long post. I guess I could put it on my heap o' self-esteem issues. Err. Except that I can't find it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You're a brat, J. No issues, indeed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
No, I haven't heard from soulloss for about three weeks. She called right before she left, and I tried to call back twice, but couldn't get her. I'd hoped to hear from her by now... and I would have sworn I saw John write a few days ago on someone's thread. I just can't remember which one.
I guess this means you haven't heard from her either... I hope everything is okay. If I do hear, I'll tell you, and you do the same for me, okay?
J, your post left me without anything to say. In a good way I mean.
It's been an eventful few days.
Saturday I joined my family to bury Aunt Dorrene's ashes.
Sunday I attended a party at car4love's house. Was even there when her daughter was dropped off, though I was sequestered out back, entertaining little kids, for that part.
Today I had a swim and met a friend for a beer. At home I had a message on my machine from my ex's health insurance carrier. A computer voice said her new name.
I get the point already. Geez Louise.
Meeting car4love's friends was an experience. I was definitely a curiosity when I first arrived. I reckon they'd heard a thing or two about me.
One of the people there is a big-time evangelical. Lots of home-schooled kids, etc. She said, "Let's talk" and man did she have a lot to say. She was very nice. She said she prays for me. I said thank you.
All this talk about food - and me with a diet lunch.
Sigh........
SS
Roast beast for dinner 2night SS. Wild rice...green beans with stewed 'maters.
Going swimming before and after.....does that make it a diet dinner?
BTW: DD3 tells me, "Look mommy, I swimmin!" Then she scoots across the bottom step in the pool with her face in the water...that's big for 3 who only waded in the ocean...
The crowd (mommy) goes WILD! Standing ovation.
Little Priss stands up and proceeds to bow and bow and bow (hands appropriately at back and tummy), "Thank you...thank you berry, berry much!"
~~~SC, peaking out from behind the tree where she's been spying on the campfire for awhile... admiring the cool kids who hang out here~~~
Just J. -- I have something to say about your long post:
Quote
...I'm 38 years old...
...with the insight, wisdom, gentleness, and compassion of someone twice that age. (which would be about half JL's age, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).
Some of your posts have brought me to tears. I think your little girl is soooo lucky to have you in her life.
You can adopt me if you want. Even though I'm a year older than you.
I even come with my own bags... or is that baggage?
You all rock. Every one of you. Wise, compassionate and love food -- what more could anyone want in a pal, I ask you??!!
Just J often brings me to tears with her posts. She already knows I think she should be a published (and rich) writer. I try not to overdo the compliments, lest her head swell up as big as her heart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Kimmy - your daughter bowing in the pool -- precious. I totally pictured it and it made me smile, too. Thank you for sharing that!
Well, I've had all three of my (adult) kids give me some help with my dream. Wanna know what they said? (I'm gonna tell you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
In a nutshell: I have a job to do, and I must do it alone. It's a job that involves cleaning up a bit of business with my family. My grandmother had the job before me, and now it is mine. My grandmother has passed the torch.
Smartcookie, would you like to edit all my writings into a book? You're welcome to if you would like. NewBeginnings, you can help if you want to. It's not that I object to being a published and rich writer. It's just that I haven't put it all together and begun the laborious and unpleasant job of editing the whole mess.
In my day job, I write the most dry and boring things in the world. I'm still editing policy documents and contract specifications instead. I wonder, could I find something that I wrote, something that's out there in the public domain that would give you an idea of what that's like? Hm.
Okay, here's an old, old version of a document I wrote. I can't find the more recent ones, unfortunately.
The policy stuff I'm spending all my time on right now is not published on a web site you can read (unless you're logged in from an nih.gov site, in which case go over to the A-76 web site and read Sections G and H of the policy guidebook).
I think, sometimes, of being like that poet who was a high-level insurance executive. But my writing energy goes into the boring stuff that pays my mortgage, and the stuff that I write here for my friends. It's not so bad. Funny that there are published authors all over the place here. Mulan (poor thing; I am so sorry she's having a hard time) and Neak are both novelists.
I don't have a plot line. I just write the story of my life. Perhaps I will ask Mulan about what it takes to become an author. I would like to do that. Maybe I'll do it with Neak, too.
And if FlyLady can write a book in 15 minutes a day, so can the rest of us, right? Uh. Right. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
So.... Smartcookie, how come you're way over there in the trees? Come on out and have a marshmallow. They're tasty. Or if you prefer, we've got some cold spring water that we tested and it's good for drinking. I hear there's fish in it, too, so maybe somebody's figured a way to fry up some trout and hush puppies. Ask around, I'm sure there's something we can help you out with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Edited to add: Oh, and NBII, I sent you mail. Except I bet I sent it to the wrong address again. *sigh* I'll forward or something. Must change address book.
Gray - homeschooling evangelical Christians are an opinionated bunch, and are happy to "let's talk" your ear off.
I hope she represented us well.
My favorite people are anti-church, Christian homeschoolers.
She is not the only one praying for you.
Seems like a bunch of girls are hanging around the campfire. It's fun roasting our toes and drinking with 'em.
A whole lot of talk about swimming.
Remember the days when we used to go to our dad's house for the summer and lay out by the pool - sleeping that lazy sunshine sleep most of the day - Chuck Mangione faintly playing on the radio in the background (OVER AND OVER)- then waking up to eat the best ham sandwiches with doritos and bean dip and coke.
Pass the sunscreen - oh wait - Hawaiian Tropic, please....
Gray, notice that she didn't tell us what time to be there.
SS
I thought y'all knew. For members of the campfire, you are welcome anytime. Bring swimming trunks.
Tonight it's cheese tortelinnis with pink sauce (alfredo and marinara mixed), meatballs and homemade bread. I'm going home for lunch to set the bread up.
Huh. I forgot to figure out what we're having for dinner tonight. Huh huh huh. This is going to be interesting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I thought y'all knew. For members of the campfire, you are welcome anytime. Bring swimming trunks.
I should quit teasing you that way, one of these days you'll flip a hot marshmellow at me.
Tonight it's cheese tortelinnis with pink sauce (alfredo and marinara mixed), meatballs and homemade bread. I'm going home for lunch to set the bread up.
I'll come by after work, and say hi to the Wookie and the kids. Gotta run after that though, can't stay to swim.
One should never hide behind trees when they are welcome at the campfire. Extra chairs too - so nice of Gray to provide for us.
I notice 2longs chair is empty - I didn't hear him say he was leaving ???
More strange events! Today my brother announced that the baby his wife is expecting this fall will be a girl. I'll have a niece. Of course I made the joke that "I was looking forward to being an uncle, but I guess I'll be an aunt... oh wait." My brother says my new name is "Aunt GC".
I had a niece once, by marriage. Today I received a "friend request" from her on myspace. I thought it was some troll, but because of the familiar name I agreed, landed on her page, and saw the photos. I saw my former SIL. My heart raced. I saw OM's name among the former niece's myspace friends.
I heard a voice. Has anyone seen Minority Report?
I heard Samantha Morton as "Agatha":
"RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN"
Kimmy, I'm working towards being able to swim a mile, fast, without resting. I'd also like to do the individual medley. Did you have a specialty in the old days?
SS, I have a few more millstones around my neck than I'd like, but that's the American Way, man.
I'd like to move away, but there are some external pressures that make that feel like a selfish choice right now. And also for the next, oh, 20-30 years.
Say this for me: my life has vitality. I just wish someone else were involved.
I definitely have a problem with food. Which is that I really like to eat it! Ah, well.
What are we congratulating GC about? I wanna join in.
It's summer. How can I tell? My work hours have dropped off precipitously. 11.5 hours of leave in a two week period. Ow. I really try hard to not use my leave just in the course of living, but you know, when you're at the office three days a week and you're supposed to work on Sundays but you're never around to do it, it really gets tough to put in the hours. Now that DD is out of school for the summer, that's another 4 hours a week I'm losing. I'm thoroughly enjoying the time off, but I'm not going to like it when I'm back down to taking leave without pay.
Hmmmmm.
Then again, that's about ten pay periods away, which is well into the autumn. By then, I suspect I'll be focused and working again.
So perhaps I'll enjoy the summer while it's here. It really is gorgeous these days, though I'd like some rain. Carrying around watering cans takes a long time.
Just passn' through on my way down to the fishn' hole. I'll be sittn' on my favorite log there a spell, but I'll drop a few pan-size off for your breakfast when I do head back.
Hi Gray. I'm going to have my floors refinished in a week or so. The nice man who's going to do it alleges that it will be all done in three days. I guess he's not going to do it whatever way you do it. I'm glad of that; I think it would make me crazy to be floorless for as long as you've been floorless.
I have to move everything in the house off of the floors that are wooden. That means the living room, dining room, downstairs hallway, upstairs hallway, guest room, DD's room, the linen closet, a clothes closet full of Christmas stuff, and two major storage closets full of, uhm, storage.
So far I've moved all the books, most of the linens, and many of the things that were on the desk in the guest room (which is where I file papers and things). It was good to finish that, especially the books. I have, err, a lot of books.
Next I'll move all the china and glass out of the dining room. After that, I'll tackle the storage closet that has DD's old clothes, all the Christmas decorations, Christmas and Easter stuff, the crib, and myriad other things in it. A lot of it will go up in the attic. I bet this is how people's attics become treasure troves of unknown stuff.
While I'm doing it, I'm trying to get rid of as much as I can. There are about 75 books sitting on a table that need to go out to the car. In the car there are already 25 or so books, plus two big bags of clothes. Probably 50 or 60 pounds of stuff went out in the trash last week. I'd like to get rid of lots more.
I have a hard time doing that, though, since a whole lot of my stuff is now antiques covered by a legal agreement my mom and aunt made, and which binds all of their heirs as well. No getting rid of any of that stuff until my mom has gone to the great antique dealership in the sky.
So I'm even more draconian about getting my own stuff as minimized as possible, and wait for the day when I can send all this other stuff to my cousins and siblings. (And no, I can't send it to my mom. She already has a whole houseful of it herself, and I'd just have to deal with it eventually anyway.)
There are some plusses, of course. I just noticed that one of the ancient books is a book by Kahlil Gibran that I've never read before, and I've got a giant copper cauldron in the sunroom that was once an applesauce cauldron, and then was used as a bloodletting cauldron at the battle of Pea Ridge, where my great-great grandfather and two great-great-great uncles fought during the Civil War. That's kinda cool.
Haw, looks like my floorlessness will end in one week. I'm the sort, likes things around my domicile to be tidy. Right now, there's piles of clothing and heaps of books and magazines (and some sawdust) all around me. And I don't know about other people, but when one part of my house goes all screwy, the spirit of chaos infects the rest of the place. So even when I shut the doors to the rooms that are taking up the slack storage-wise, the rest of the house is still just off a ways.
Today I met a friend at the movies. After, I talked about wanting to move away. She said she wouldn't let me. Another friend has said the same thing, bless their hearts. But you know, I told her, I spend a lot of weekends by myself, sometimes a little lonely and blue, and so even though I technically have lots of friends, I don't feel I have this magnificent social life I'll be giving up. We're at that age where people are settling in, not going out so much. Kids or not, married or not, people my age are just not as energetic and carefree as they used to be, and they're more careful how they spend their leisure hours.
"You'll be surprised how many people will miss you," she said.
I said, "Aw, shut up. Hardly anyone will notice."
This is the woman I sorta dated briefly last winter and then made into a friend. What powers I have! She's swell. We said good night and she kissed me on the cheek, said don't move away.
I didn't want 2 copy and paste your post ATOP, because it's your stuff. Besides, all that catholic stuff is way over my haid.
...and I gave up on that silly argument. Wears me out!
-ol' 2long P.S. I just bought another Model A 2day. Sending a deposit check 2morrow. But it's up in your neck of the woods, and i need 2 sell my other one 2 make room in the garage for it. So it may be a few weeks before I get it down here.
I don't have any problem, certainly none that moving away could solve. It would be an adventure, and there's not much reason not to except family, friends, and career.
It's hard to know what to say now - not having read the deleted post.
Maybe you wrote in the heat of the momemt, and then thought it didn't fit well.
Remember we're not writing here just because it's cool (though it might be) or because we like you, it's becasue we care about you. Your thoughts and feelings are important.
You are important.
Not trying to get you to re post - but remember the care and concern is real.
Besides, you have a good sense of humor, and that's worth a lot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I spend a lot of weekends by myself, sometimes a little lonely and blue, and so even though I technically have lots of friends, I don't feel I have this magnificent social life I'll be giving up.
J, I've been depressed before. The low moods I experience nowadays are not in that category. I don't consider them to be a problem that needs solving. I don't think the amplitude of my moods is unusual, considering my circumstances.
I don't need a good reason to move. Maybe I just wanna go live by the ocean. Always have. Did once, briefly, and LIKED IT.
Go to the ocean Gray, if it is calling you. There are friends there, whom you have yet to meet, who miss you too.
As for me, we spent last weekend on Mackinac Island for the Lilac Festival (along with a small fortune). It was beautiful of coarse, but GB and P did not do well together. P is 11 and GB is 46...enough said, eh? They both think the world revolves around them, and then there was me in the middle, just thinking the waiter was moving slower than necessary with my drinks.
Yep, I won't be vacationing with the two of them again any time soon. Not unless the hired help can move a little faster with those drinks, that is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I think dating and children doesn't mix...so until they both grow up, I will keep them apart.
Oh and she did go and tell her dad on us (triangulating TA says it is called)...we kept her up way too late listening to a band, and made her late for a social meeting she had at 11 am the next morning. I kid you not on that one...and this is why GB kept calling her little miss 30, and she wasn't too happy about that either. Me, I just tried to ignore them both most of the time.
At least Gray, you won't have kids to complicate your future R's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Huh. Weaver, HoFS is the same age as GB. He has three boys (16,14,9). I have a DD (3). We have now had them all together on three separate weekends, twice at his house and once at mine.
It's stressful. It's -hard-. It's scary, particularly for the older kids who understand that they have a lot resting on how our relationship goes. (Where would we live? Will we still see dad? Does he still love us? Will we have to live with J and her DD? Will we have to live with mom full time? Will he start to love J's DD more? What happens if they get married? What happens if they break up? Etc. etc. etc.)
It may be that it was a little early for you to combine your DD and GB. It must've been a challenge for both of them. At the same time, that's the thing about dating when there are kids. You're not just dating the parent. You are, in some way, courting the entire family. There is no such thing as taking one without the other and never will be. Separate the parent from the child? Sure, if you want an occasional date as friends. Do it long-term in a relationship that you want to last? Not possible, I don't think.
Not that I think there are good solutions, mind you. I have seen over and over again that the 16 years HoFS has had kids means that he understands them and their reactions to things much, much better than I do. From a jerk of the head and a single word, he can surmise a whole host of thoughts and reactions, and do so with great accuracy. I'm left standing there going, "Okay, how do we know that we're going to go out in half an hour? I missed that completely..."
That leaves a gap. A hole that only their other parent could ever hope to fill. I can't, and I know I can't, and do not wish to fill that gap. And yet, it means that if we form a family unit, it will be one that is very different from the one I grew up with, or the ones that SS or 2Long have. I know, guys, that your marriages aren't perfect. You still have that deep, intuitive understanding that arises from knowing your children their entire lives. HoFS and I will not have that about each other's children. It will create stresses and strains that I can only begin to guess at right now.
And, of course, all of that time spent on integrating kids into a family is time that you do not spend building your own relationship as a couple.
Sheesh. Is that hard work, or what?
Some of you know that polyamory is a part of my past. I think that building a step family is as hard as polyamory, maybe harder. Forget adding one intimate partner to a couple and the four relationships associated with that. Having failed at that, am I instead going to try building one intimate partnership, relationships between the two adults and the four kids, relationships amongst all the children, and a whole-family gestalt. HOW many very close ties does that make?
There are times when I think the whole prospect is crazy. And yet I persevere, and so will you, Weaver. Just keep your eyes open and your ethics focused and remember that you have to pay attention to protecting you and DD from harm, and accept that there is a certain amount of potential harm in every human relationship. Sometimes that makes the two hard to balance.
I wasn't talking so much about low moods, Gray, as much as I was talking about emptiness. Lack. That indefinable "something" that's missing from your life right now. I am very glad you're not depressed. It makes it much easier to look at the lack and to see whether going to another place would help with it or not.
I have seen over and over again that the 16 years HoFS has had kids means that he understands them and their reactions to things much, much better than I do. From a jerk of the head and a single word, he can surmise a whole host of thoughts and reactions, and do so with great accuracy. I'm left standing there going, "Okay, how do we know that we're going to go out in half an hour? I missed that completely..."
JJ,
This is it, in a nutshell. He doesn't know my daughter, although he did raise one (22 YO now), and because I have raised her to say what is on her mind, to think for herself, to be spirited, open with her thoughts even when others disagree, and she is very confident ...well as you can imagine, hard for him being from the old school where you did what you were told and with a smile on at that.
I will keep her out of it for now, it is too soon as you said and our relationship cannot stand the strain of this at this time...and she is not happy about me dating him, nor the last one. I am beginning to think she was hurt worse than I thought by what happened with Dan ...and she was also told last night that her Dad and Stepmom are separating. She is very upset about that and told me she cried herself to sleep after, so worried about her baby sister, and because her stepmom was crying very hard.
I need to keep her life as stable as possible right now and will not force a relationship between her and GB until much more time has passed and one develops naturally between them.
You sure are right JJ about how hard it is, BUT it would be worse not to try again at all. Kids need to see their parents healthy and happy, and in good loving relationships even if not with each.
Weaver, it sounds like keeping your daughter out of the mix is a really good idea right now. Your daughter doesn't need to be hurt again, particularly with the stress of knowing that her dad's marriage is in trouble. I'm very sad for her about that -- the major change of a divorce can be so painful for a child. That's one of the reasons that I am coming, slowly, to sincerely hope that my ex and her husband remain married. DD speaks of "Mommy and [husband]" as a unit, and has come to view them as permanently together. She is attached to him quite strongly, and all the interactions I see between them are affectionate and healthy. I know that a marriage like theirs has a lower chance of success than a first marriage. And yet ... I hope, for DD's sake, that they make it.
Weird, to be in that position after opposing the relationship for so long. But what's done is done, and it would cause even more harm, at this point, to destroy that relationship. (Besides, I don't really want my ex to be such a mess again. It would make my life difficult.)
And then there's this part, Weaver. You said, "You sure are right JJ about how hard it is, BUT it would be worse not to try again at all. Kids need to see their parents healthy and happy, and in good loving relationships even if not with each."
You know that I am in a relationship and very much in love, and wouldn't give it up for the world. And yet, I also question whether you're right about this, Weaver. I question myself regularly. Is it right to take the time away from DD to give to the relationship I'm building with HoFS? It does if I'm building something that will increase DD's safety, security, and overall happiness. That might happen through increasing my own safety, security, and overall happiness, or it might be through building hers directly. Or, preferrably, both.
On the other hand, there is the potential that I would build an unstable and insecure structure, one that may come tumbling down on both our heads. That wouldn't be good for us, nor for anyone else who might get caught in the mess. I would want to build a structure that supports HoFS and his boys too, for example, and any other kids or family who might be associated with it.
Tough choices. It's hard to know whether you're building something strong. It's hard, too, to predict the future and know what's best. I think about it a lot.
This is all so interesting to me. I CANNOT imagine having another man in my girls' lives. Our house is a pretty 'open' house. Lots of nakedness, squealing, arguments. It would have to change and it would take such an amazing, incredible man to make that change worth the risk. It's not that I wouldn't want to date, but to actually co-habit whilst the girls are growing up seems like the most alien, unlikely thing in the world.
Life is so busy I can't even imagine finding the time to include a man. It is something I can foresee in the future but not whilst the girls are so little.
Weaver, You fall in love so wholeheartedly. It's quite beautiful but so opposite to me. I'm far too cautious and sensible. I honestly don't know what it would take for me to loosen up and let myself go. Lots of gin and tonic might do it.
I'm so sorry about P's dad's relationship. It's a lot for a little girl to go through no matter if she is 11 going on 30. She sounds a very smart, sensitive girl. This sounds like a juggling act for you trying to keep everyone happy, but perhaps you and your manfriend can just take it really slowly so nobody feels pressurized. How would you feel if P NEVER warmed to him and vice versa. Is it a possibility you have thought about? TT
Oh TT, thank you for this...I was worried since our differing opinion.
It is not the right time for you to be in a relationship, that is why you feel as you do but after your girls are grown some more I think you will feel like I do, and your heart will open wide up again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Gosh TT, it sounds like you have such a happy home and I am so happy for you!
My daughter JJ, has not been sheltered from much...she watched both my parents (both addicts in the end) die, and I never hid any of it from her...her capacity for compassion/kindness is huge (like all children), I didn't teach her to be embarrassed, ashamed or afraid of illness or death. I taught her to embrace it, because it is life, as much as birth is.
She will never worry about me, or suffer through my pain as I did with my parents. I will never allow that to happen. I carry my stability and happiness within me now, and that cannot be shaken (not for long anyway).
Now what she needs is to see me model a loving relationship, she needs this for her own peace and happiness as she grows and leaves me.
And at this time, because I do not have that R yet (just dating GB and he is new) I will not subject her to it beyond anything very casual I decided.
And I pray that her dad and stepmom work their problems out too for her sake as well as her baby sisters. I hate divorce now, I just hate to see families separate...we all do I suppose. It is just so wrong, but when it happens we must still find a way to regain what was lost.
My heart is open to loving because I see love all around me and because I know that this is our purpose, and yes the romantic kind too.
I don't think I've ever heard any Daniel Lanois before.
But Sling Blade was on the Lobotomy Box the other night, and I liked the version of "The Maker" at the end of the movie.
"Oh, oh deep water, black and cold like the night I stand with arms wide open, I've run a twisted line I'm a stranger in the eyes of the Maker
I could not see for the fog in my eyes I could not feel for the fear in my life And from across the great divide, In the distance I saw a light Jean Baptiste's walking to me with the Maker
My body is bent and broken by long and dangerous sleep I can't work the fields of Abraham and turn my head away I'm not a stranger in the hands of the Maker
Brother John, have you seen the homeless daughters Standing there with broken wings I have seen the flaming swords there over east of eden
Burning in the eyes of the Maker Burning in the eyes of the Maker Burning in the eyes of the Maker...
Oh, river rise from your sleep..."
And me all areligious and all... (don't tell FH!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> -ol' 2long
- Must be able to feed me, four hungry men (two of them teenagers), and a boy. - Must be able to be prepared indoors (because it looks like rain) - Must be either quick to prepare or something that I can hold for a long while; dinnertime is uncertain
I'm going to go to the grocery store this afternoon, so a real long prep time may not work either.
- Must be able to feed me, four hungry men (two of them teenagers), and a boy. - Must be able to be prepared indoors (because it looks like rain) - Must be either quick to prepare or something that I can hold for a long while; dinnertime is uncertain
I'm going to go to the grocery store this afternoon, so a real long prep time may not work either.
Make hamburgers and broil them in the oven.
Do you have a bread machine?
You can make homemade buns....I'm making this Sunday.
I've got the recipe in my cabaza for the bread if you need it.
My gf from high school sent me the whole first season of Fraggle Rock. We're gonna swim and watch Fraggles and Doozers Sunday.
Swimming! I had my first lesson last night. I want to do the individual medley in masters, and I want to be able to do a mile, fast, in open water. Figured my stroke was tweaked, since nobody has ever helped me with it...
So the instructor has me do a lap, and after she tells me, "You're really strong. Your stroke is perfect."
Great. All that money to find I don't need lessons.
Swimming! I had my first lesson last night. I want to do the individual medley in masters, and I want to be able to do a mile, fast, in open water. Figured my stroke was tweaked, since nobody has ever helped me with it...
So the instructor has me do a lap, and after she tells me, "You're really strong. Your stroke is perfect."
Great. All that money to find I don't need lessons.
I love to watch other people do the butterfly. A good butterfly LOOKs effortless. In point of fact, though, I have always felt as though I was drowning when I attempted it.
A mile in open water, huh Gray? That's cool. Twenty years ago I was swimming three miles a day, but that was in a pool. Now? Now I probably couldn't swim 3 lengths of the pool without pausing for a rest.
If anyone wants to go swimming in my basement, though, you're out of luck. After about 24 continuous hours of effort, I've managed to keep the water to only a minor flow, rather than the 4 feet of water they've got in the basement in some of the Federal Gov't buildings downtown. There have been 7 inches of rain over most of this area in the last 24 hours.
I think I'm gonna calculate how many gallons that is. 'Scuse me for a bit...
J, Please send some of the rain out here. We get about 8 to 13 inches a year and have been in a slump this year. The air is filled with smoke from the brush fires in the desert.
- Must be able to feed me, four hungry men (two of them teenagers), and a boy. beans and potato- Must be able to be prepared indoors (because it looks like rain) - Must be either quick to prepare or something that I can hold for a long while; dinnertime is uncertain
I'm going to go to the grocery store this afternoon, so a real long prep time may not work either.
Here's one of our family favorites.
It's nice to have a few left over baked potatoes to use, but you can microwave some while you are cooking the hamburger. Leave the potatoes undercooked just a tiny bit if you are microwaving them.
Fry some hamburger in a large frying pan. Put in about one medium sized onion for every lb of burger. When the burger and onion are mostly cooked - Add potatoes and warm them too. (pre cooked baked potatoes) Salt and Pepper to taste - men usually like more than women. Add a can or green beans and stir until they are hot also.
Serve when beans are hot.
About 1/4 lb burger, and 1 potato for every person eating, but that depends on the person. If the persons are teen boys, it can take a lot more food to make them happy.
About 1 or two cans of green beans for every 1/2 to 1 lb burger. More beans and potatoes if you like less meat. This one can be changed around a great deal and still work.
We like to add a few shakes of Lowry's seasoned salt to spice it up a little bit.
It's really fast, it's easy, cheap, and holds well. We used it a lot when cooking for Boy Scout trips, and it has become a family favorite too - even when we are not in a hury. It's a good "one pot" meal and is really easy to clean up after.
You can do corn, or carrots, or mixed veggies, or peas (or about anything) but we usually do green beans. Young kids seem to like them best overall.
I know it's way too late to help you, but there will be other times.
It's always good served with bread or rolls.
How are things with you and HoFS? Life has not been easy this last little while. Is there still joy in the journey?
If it'll make you feel any better (or drier), take some consolation in the fact that all the water in the Earths lakes, rivers and streams amounts 2 less than 0.002% of the water in the Earth's oceans.
And no, it didn't take me all of that time just to do the calculations. I also made me and DD hot dogs for supper (first time I've eaten a hot dog in, uhhh, well, since the last time I went to a pro baseball game, which was before she was born, so 4 years, I think). We had orange slices, grape tomatoes, and baby carrots with it. She had hot apple cider and I had hot tea. Though it's warm outside, it's cold in the house because I have the AC on trying to dry things out.
SS, you're welcome to all our extra rain. You truly are. Welcome back, by the way. Did you have fun? I wish I'd been able to join you.
HoFS and I have had a couple of really good weekends. There are still all the hard things to face, and yet it seems that the real problem was not so muc that they're hard, but that we weren't talking about them. I forget that HoFS feels like he needs to have a solution before he talks about things -- and he forgets that I need to know that we're working toward a solution whether we have one or not. We're getting better about that, I think.
In addition to the good weekends between him and me, we've had several good weekends with his boys and DD around. We're slowly figuring out how to have quality time for ourselves without taking time away from our kids. The hardest is when DD is with me overnight, though. She's still so young that she needs a lot of attention.
Thanks for the recipe, though I have a feeling I may not ever use it. But there are usually those ingredients around, so someday when I'm desperate I'll come back to page 320 on this thread and look for it.
Friday night we ended up going out to eat. I had grilled salmon over orzo with goat cheese and asparagus. HoFS had scallops and shrimp over... couscous? I think? in a wonderfully light and creamy curry sauce. The two older boys each had filet mignon, which they declared to be the best meat they'd ever eaten. They also liked the au gratin potatotes. The roasted tomatoes and sauteed spinach were (literally) harder to swallow. The youngest had chicken tenders and french fries with lots of catsup. He was happy with it.
And we shared a couple of hot fudge sundaes afterwards.
It was a good evening. And that's only the beginning of it, but y'all will just have to imagine the rest. I'm not telling. (She said, looking happy as a kitten who's had a bowl of cream and is now fast asleep in a warm patch of sun.)
I'll take the extra rain - and maybe Gray can figure out how to transport it here? By now there should be a way.
The recipe does not sound exciting at all - and it's not, but people seem to try it and eat a lot of it and remark that it "seems to hit the spot.'
It's also really good with spicy sausage and we do a vegetarian version too. We just go to the garden, pick something and add in whatever we have the most of. Bell peppers, tomatoes, squash and we try different spices. I don't think I make it the same two times in a row. A little olive oil helps it out a lot.
I think I am seeing joy in the journey. Thanks, I tend to worry.
Weaver has been quiet, and she can be that way when doing really well, or really bad. I hope it's because she's doing really well.
Faithful is kind of keeping to the shadows too. I suspect there will still be storms across her path in the near future, but they won't stop progress.
2long is so strong we sometimes take him for granted - believing he can always handle it. I am hoping his strength increasinly comes from unity.
Kimmy seems happy these days. Even with all the troubles. One of these days I'll get to Texas and say "HI" in person.
And there is Graycloud. Seeped in the pain of many months of doubt. Strengthed by overcoming most of his fears. Bent but not broken by a long ways. And of course - finished sanding his floors.
Sometimes I wonder if Gray sings "I am a rock, I am an Island" and knows it doesn't work that way. Metaphorically speaking, of course.
I can't mention everyone - but I wish I could.
J, We had a wonderful time. All of our children except for one son (who lives in CA) came with us, and we had all 5 of our grandchildren including 7 week old Cooper who is now a certified camper.
We talked, laughed, played games, saw the sights, told stories, and had a really good time. The grand kids loved it - playing out side every day for nearly all day. They don't get to do that at home. Their boundaries were such that they didn't bump up against them much. Freedom felt good to them.
GC, congrats on finishing the floors! I agree it is time to break in your floor with a party.
Hi J, Weaver, FAR, SS and anyone else that is hovering around the fire. It is too hot here to be close to the fire but I will be glad to crack open a beer with someone.
SS, After a really bad spell recently I think I am coming out of the right side finally. Thank you for always keeping me in your thoughts, it is good to be missed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SS, you didn't mention your DW, though I suspect that's because she is as she always is. Please, give her my regards. She's a special lady and I hope to meet her (and you, of course) someday.
I'm gonna tell you all a secret: When it rains so hard that the basement starts to leak, make sure you have a good bucket. It'll do you wonders.
And another secret: When your whole body hurts the next day, remind yourself that this is just how you used to feel when you worked out with weights. And therefore, the answer is to lift weights when it's sunny and bail water when it rains.
And yes, it stopped raining before 10pm last night, so at least I got to sleep some of it off. There's nothing like the deep sleep of physical exhaustion.
Oh, and there's supposed to be another set of storms that will drop torrential rains on the region again today. 2 inches per hour. My gutters can't take it. Good thing the bucket system is in place. *sigh*
I hate the butterfly. I always feel like I am drowning when doing it. Coach always made me do the 500yd freestyle. I got pretty good at it.
I went from a 90 lb freshman to a 130 lb sophomore b/c of swimming. (Asthmatic, and all.)
HI! FAITH!!! (waving spastically)
How are ya?
This whole being divorced business is wierd. I have had a new set of nights, waking at 2 or 3am, laying, staring at the ceiling, thinking all kinds of profound thoughts. For hours. Then I fall asleep when it is time to get going.
I miss my wife. But she is gone.
Ho hum.
Still praying for the next one.
Wondering if Harley Sr.'s comment "you will have a better chance in 5 years" is prophetic. About xw.
I am not interested in her any more. Well, maybe for SF. But I am afraid of that. But it would be best for my kids for M&D to work it out. And God can do crazy things.
JJ - how is the novel coming along?
How do you accurately calculate water in a lake, when the bottom half is probably only a third the size of the top half? When the lake (Ray Hubbard is the one I spent time on) is down 2 or 3 feet, is that MOST of the water?
What is the average wind speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Kimmy, The anaheim peppers are startting to come off. About 6 or 7 inches long.
I think it might be chile relleno week at our house. Saturday night, about 6.
SS
I'll be there. Dunno if my tum can handle it, but at this point I'm feeding the fear with anything and everything I can get my hands on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Dealen-de, I'm sorry for the stress of the ongoing delays.
I don't know a single thing about your situation or why you're trying to obtain custody. Can you give me a link to it? I always wonder about it, and never have managed to ask before.
FAR, I haven't started the novel yet. I did, however, start researching where I can send things. Children's story publishers in one folder, gay and lesbian publishers in another, people who take stories about dealing with small children in a third.
I didn't calculate the volume of the lake. I looked it up. If I were to calculate it? I would take the detailed 3D maps that they've done of the bottom of Lake Michigan and divide it into 1 meter squares. Then I would calculate the volume of each "block" of water (1m x 1m x depth) and then I would add them all up.
There are probably faster ways to estimate it, but that's how I would get a generally accurate number. You might even be able to do 10m x 10m squares and get a decent number, or even 100m x 100 m. Depends on the accuracy that you're looking for.
In other words, I'd do it the way Edison liked to have the volume of a lightbulb determined...
Once you're done missing your wife, you can start being awake to what's around you. There are other people to have sex with..... and sex is much better when you're deeply attached to the person you're having it with. So much so that even though I was a little crazy when I was a kid, I would say now that sex without a long-term commitment and attachment kinda stinks.
I dunno where to to start baybee. It's been 3 years of her ******, half acred suicide attempts, mija having lice since she was 6 months....her boyfriend beating her up....her lies...the children living in filth....just the past two pick ups, mija has the same chonies on that we sent her in...that's 4 days without changing her chonies....
SS, you're very smart. I am a rock. My favorite song when I was little. I played that Greatest Hits record on my folks' old "cabinet" hi-fi a million times. That music isn't just safe, inoffensive pop.
Kimmy, do you like Bob Dylan? I don't know why I thought of "Buckets of Rain" but I did...
Buckets of rain, buckets of tears Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears Buckets of moonbeams in my hand I got all the love, honey baby, you can stand.
I been meek and hard like an oak I seen pretty people disappear like smoke Friends will arrive, friends will disappear If you want me, honey baby, I'll be here
Like your smile and your fingertips Like the way that you move your lips I like the cool way you look at me Everything about you is bringing me misery
Little red wagon, little red bike I ain't no monkey but I know what I like I like the way you love me strong and slow I'm taking you with me, honey baby, when I go
Life is sad, life is a bust All you can do is do what you must You do what you must do and you do it well I'll do it for you, honey baby, can't you tell
Okay.... What are "chonies"? Undies? I suspect they are. Sigh. Sounds like their mom is in a world of hurt. And I mean that quite literally. I'm so sorry. I think Gray's got some good lyrics for you. I hope, really really hope, that she gets some help and gets healthy. The kids really need healthy parents, you know? And even if they're with you, they'll miss her and still need her healthy.
It hurts when the babies get hurt.
Funny. I've thought many times about adoption -- about adopting a child or two or six. I've thought, too, about the friends I've had who were adopted when they were babies, about how they always missed something and wished they knew their birth parents, and yet loved their adoptive parents.
I've never thought, though, about the kids who are adopted out of living conditions that are so very bad. They must still miss their birth parents -- it's a part of the nature of humans that they attach to their parents. We're like little ducklings that way. And yet sometimes the attachments are so messed up.
So sad.
Lyrics. So many sad lyrics about this topic. None quite fit. This one will have to do...
and she takes another step slowly she opens the door check that he is sleeping pick up all the broken glass and furniture on the floor been up half the night screaming now it's time to get away pack up the kids in the car another bruise to try and hide another alibi to write another ditch in the road you keep moving another stop sign you keep moving on and the years go by so fast wonder how I ever made it through
and there are children to think of baby's asleep in the back seat wonder how they'll ever make it through this living nightmare but the mind is an amazing thing full of candy dreams and new toys and another cheap hotel two beds and a coffee machine but there are groceries to buy and she knows she'll have to go home
another ditch in the road you keep moving another stop sign you keep moving on and the years go by so fast wonder how I ever made it through
another bruise to try and hide another alibi to write another lonely highway in the black of night there's hope in the darkness I know you're gonna make it
another ditch in the road keep moving another stop sign you keep moving on and the years go by so fast silent fortress built to last wonder how I ever made it
I have a friend who was divorced once and has children and who's moving far away from her ex. I assume the children will only see their father a few months every year.
Some people might say the woman is making the wrong choice for her children, taking them far from their own father.
I have to recuse myself. I don't know. All I know is I'll miss her and I'm thrilled for her. I asked her, 1 to 10, how excited is she to be getting out of here. 17, she said. I said you shouldn't overestimate how happy something is going to make you. Okay, she said, 16 then.
Hang in there, and keep doing what you are doing...your loving stability will counteract their mother's neglect of them. I hope she gets help some day, how awful for all concerned.
SS,
I am doing really good and very happy...get P back tonight for her four months with me and we leave tomorrow for Green Bay for a week.
P is also getting a little long-haired weiner dog tonight (clancy), which we are bringing on our trip (oh yay <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) with us. I agreed for her to get this little dog because she has to stay home while I am at work now without a baby-sitter (first summer for this), and I don't want her to get lonely, plus she needs a little dog to love and learn responsibility for.
I no longer have the computer hooked up at home so mostly just check in when I am at work and usually too briefly to post. (today though, I am taking it a little bit easy at work)
To everyone else (I see 2long is off for a week or two, probably to the OOSP) have a great holiday!!!!!!!
Weaver, I know life is always complicated and we only share a tiny bit of ourselves here - compared to the thoughts and feelings we have.
I am so glad you are happy. I am glad P has you to be her mom.
The twins had a dog from when they were born, until they turned 11. It was a good thing for them. Ours was a golden retriever, and it was gentle and kind to kids. It was good for them to care for it, and learn that it had feelings and needed love. It was good for them to get love in return.
Thanks so much for sharing - it means a lot to me to know how you are.
Faithful, It's also good to see happy posts from you. As I told Weaver, I know a lot more happens than you talk aobut.
I know you must have difficult days - so I continue to pray for you. All of you.
Time passes, and the longer I live, the more quiclky the years fly by. We can never really live in the past or the future - Time always takes the form of ~now~. Enjoy your time as a mother. It may be that you won't get to do, or have all the things you want, or even all that you need, but you can still be happy.
I think that is one of the big secrets of life - be happy with what you have, find things to be thankful for each day. We always work for a better life, and we should, but so often we already have what is needed for happiness right in front of us.
I doubt I am telling you anything new, but sometimes it helps to hear it again.
I can't pass this up. From an article in the Washington Post about the National Archives:
The chief archivist of the United States of America immediately seized on a single, all-important question when an aide woke him at 1:40 a.m. Monday to report massive flooding at the National Archives. Tens of thousands of gallons of water had gushed in from Constitution Avenue, knocking out transformers that power the building's lights and air conditioning.
Are the Charters of Freedom safe? Allen Weinstein asked groggily, referring to that venerable trio of documents: the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
...
When he arrived at the building at 6 a.m. Monday, Weinstein said, the first place he checked was the rotunda, to see for himself that it was dry. Then he called the White House to pass along word that the country's most storied documents were safe and sound.
SS, you're very smart. I am a rock. My favorite song when I was little. I played that Greatest Hits record on my folks' old "cabinet" hi-fi a million times. That music isn't just safe, inoffensive pop.
Kimmy, do you like Bob Dylan? I don't know why I thought of "Buckets of Rain" but I did...
Buckets of rain, buckets of tears Got all them buckets comin' out of my ears Buckets of moonbeams in my hand I got all the love, honey baby, you can stand.
I been meek and hard like an oak I seen pretty people disappear like smoke Friends will arrive, friends will disappear If you want me, honey baby, I'll be here
Like your smile and your fingertips Like the way that you move your lips I like the cool way you look at me Everything about you is bringing me misery
Little red wagon, little red bike I ain't no monkey but I know what I like I like the way you love me strong and slow I'm taking you with me, honey baby, when I go
Life is sad, life is a bust All you can do is do what you must You do what you must do and you do it well I'll do it for you, honey baby, can't you tell
GC
You know GC, I thought of this post this weekend. I think, but I'm not quite certain that this is one of the nicest posts you've ever posted to me.
Seriously.
Made me content and happy.
The Wookie bought me a pool stick this weekend. It's got green stained inlay pieces on it. It's loverly. He's teaching me the game. I kinda know it already. I understand the physics better than most beginners anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> But it was fun sunday.
I keep up on the reading here, mostly, but don't get much of a chance to write.
I had to say something about this:
Quote
Quote
>Sounds like their mom is in a world of hurt.
Yes....and her hurt rains down on the children.
She is constantly searching for the next big thing to get her out of her pain. She fails to realize the next big thing resides inside HER.
She'd never believe it. Never ever.
It's so sad.
All we can do is break the chain.
Wow.
Sounds a lot like my xw.
But the kids are never getting far from me. That is my current topic of intense thought. Intense prayer.
far
Sounds a lot like my H's ex, also.
Such a compassionate way to look at it.
I haven't seen the hurt in a long time because I don't trust it. The hurt pulls me in and I believe in the human spirit and all that is good -- and then -- well, let's just say I find out differently.
It's nice to see all of you around the campfire, this being the best of camping season and all. I miss my grandparents who used to take my sister and me out every summer... such warm memories... oh, I could write a book about those trips. ::::::
Faithful - (words & music by bill strange - scott davis)
Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind Memories, sweetened thru the ages just like wine
Quiet thought come floating down And settle softly to the ground Like golden autumn leaves around my feet I touched them and they burst apart with sweet memories, Sweet memories
This is actually a love song - but it applies to families too. Here are some photos of Zion Park - one of the accessible trails we hiked on July 4th. DS would love it, as would DD, and you adults too - I know it
Memories do sweeten through the ages - kids love remembering......... later, when they get older. You don't have to do this trip, but you do need to go somewhere.
SS, you must be a mind reader! I just said to my H the other day that my dream is to take a family vacation to somewhere like Utah. Maybe rent an accessible motor home and head out on the road. I want my DD and DS to have a memory of at least one family vacation. I actually mentioned Utah because after seeing CARS last weekend I had a strong desire to go there. If you haven't seen CARS the scenary suggests Utah. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Not sure, SS. Have to wait to see if they hire someone new at H's work. Right now he is the only fulltime worker in the office. The other guy is now nearly part time. Can't take off until they fill the vacancy. I am hoping for August but that may be too hot for DS.
Wow, SS. I've been there. It's cool to see pictures of a place I went, oh, 25 years ago or so. I don't remember exactly how old I was. I do remember that my sister threw one of her shoes into the canyon. She was old enough to know better, probably 8 or 9. We didn't get it back, and I seem to remember a grumbling stop at a shoe store on the way back to the hotel.
Haven't seen "Cars" either, but must, because not only does there appear 2 be a "splittie" VW transporter in it, but a Hudson Hornet as well (my dad had one that was way 2 cool).
So, got back from OOSP last friday night (SS, we caught some really yummy rainbow trout up at Puffer on the 5th) after a 500 mile drive. Stared at my eyelids for a few hours and hopped on a plane 2 Portland, OR at 7am the next morning.
Paid the balance on my "new" 1931 Model A panel truck and have been driving it down the coast since. 2day, I thought I'd blown the head gasket, but it's not leaking and there's no water in the oil or oil in the water, just some blowing out the radiator cap on the grades. I met with some really cool Model A nuts in Eureka who told me it may have a slight leak but it's fine, just keep it under 45mph from now on and keep it full of water (no pressurized system, so it will lose water anyway on a long drive). Made it 2 Garberville for the night, and now it's late so I should stare at my eyelids some more. Fig're I've got a 2ple more long days ahead of me. Would love 2 hook up with some MBers on my way home, but frankly I move 2 slow and will need 2 drive 2 much of the day. But if you see a Model A driving by on the 101 or the 1 next 2ple days, be sure and wave - it just might be meself!
Thanks for the news 2long. I haven't been to puffer for a while. It's about time. I know the weather is a lot nicer there than here in July and August.
I hope DS liked it - I assume he was with you.
J, Maybe you should all come to Zion and let me show you around. I bet you would STILL like it.
I just hope you don't come when I have to be somewhere. (like work)
Faithful, Oct, Nov is a nice time of the year. Weather is nearly always good then. Spring is nice too.
What I would really like to see is a date on the calendar for you guys. No matter where you go, or what you do.
Hi Graycloud. People care about you. I was thinking about you - you need a vacation too. Sanding floors gets the work done, but it's not the same. (I was tempted to add "and you know it, too." but I decided to leave it out.)
Hope the music is helping. It does create moods. (Can create? Does create???)
J, I don't know how long it takes to recover from the stress of helping someone heal, and having your house flooded, and cleaning up, and repairing. I am sure it takes longer than the actual cleanup and repair, which must be ongoing.
You are in my prayers. May you recover quickly, and well. Sorry for the stress, and the loss of time when you could be (and should be) loving life, not just enduring it.
Happy trails 2long. Don't blow a gasket. (I always wanted to say that.)
2Long, it's too bad your timing wasn't a little different. HoFS is in Portland this week for a conference. (Anyone else out that way?)
SS, it's been a rough time and I'm only just now starting to figure out how to recover. Yesterday my brother, the one who lives with me, left for Japan for a five week work stint. So I'll be doing all the household chores and stuff myself during that time. He didn't necessarily do a lot -- but he fed the cat and mowed the lawn and did a few other things as well. So it'll be a bit more work for me.
So I decided that I would give myself a 5-week health makeover. Sorta like going to a spa but staying home. I'm eating what I want to eat -- what I think is healthy, that is -- without worrying about getting a formal dinner on the table every night.
I did yoga last night and did some again today with DD. And we went to the park today. I'm going to go for a walk in a little while and do some more yoga later.
I'll keep working on the house stuff as much as I can. Estimates for the drainage stuff will happen next week and a bit after that. I've moved almost all the things that need to be moved so that I can have the floors refinished. I think I've picked out a new fridge and clothes dryer. So I'm making progress.
I hope, too, to figure out a way to get more sleep. It'll probably look something like, "HoFS, my love, it's 10pm and I'm going to sleep. Yes, I know I stayed up until 1am last night. Please have me checked to see if I'm a changeling... in the morning."
Thank you, SS. My floors are done. My house is very hospitable, though with a few big incompletes to settle before I can take a real break. By winter I'd like to have it ready to sell. Though I haven't decided to move away. Just want to have the option.
My floors are done, too. I hope to get the house back to livable sometime soon. Right now I have bits and pieces of things everywhere. My goal for tonight is to make my bed and get my clothes back in my room. (Last night we did that with DD's things.)
I was in Ohio this weekend. No one thinks it's a coincidence that HoFS discovered a flooded bathroom that had leaked for several days (while he was away at a conference) when we walked into the house. Floods follow me.
And I got home a day late thanks to a traffic accident and resultant 45-minute traffic stop on the freeway. The good news is that we weren't involved. We just had to sit there for a long time.
I would like to retrieve my cat from the vet, but they'll be closed by the time I get there. Maybe I can pick him up tomorrow. He's costing me a ton of money. Probably upwards of $1000 now. But apparently he's feeling much better. That's good.
(Does anyone want a gray tabby? Generally good disposition except when he attacks you for no reason. Now takes prednisone and Pepcid A/C for irritable bowel disease.)
I have a ton of work to do. This is always true, but seems a little more true today than other days.
Gray, I read that article you posted. That's amazing. Would that all of us could react to death and destruction that way. I know exactly what she's talking about. I don't know if I could do it though. She really is amazing.
Consider the details of her experience. The brutal murder of her husband, televised across the world, posted all over the Internet, while she was pregnant with the only child they'd ever have.
J, has the word ethics started to appear in more mainstream publications recently, or does it seem that way because my choices of reading material have changed in the last coupla years?
Her experiences are the kind that either break you or make you unbreakable. It sounds to me like she was already unbreakable. Me? I'm not so strong.
I don't know the answer to your question about ethics, Gray. If it is happening that the world is paying more attention to a word like that, I think it's a good thing. And not just lip service, but a real investigation of what ethics are and what they mean to each of us, every day.
Lets hope you never have to find out the same way she did.
It looks like Gray passed his test......... He just doesn't seem to know it fully yet. Maybe we should send him a copy of his grades in the mail, (return reciept requested) and have him sign for them.
Those are some words that need to be better understood and then the concepts applied to our lives.
What a difference it would make in the world. I'm working on it for me. Slow though.
SS, there's nothing to apologize for, at least for me. I think you were right on the money. And I sincerely hope that I'm never tested the way she was. She probably wouldn't want my tests, either, though she'd probably "pass" with flying colors.
Remember how I said I was going to take the next 5 weeks as a spa vacation at home? Sheesh. Right after that the floor refinishers called and said they were coming the next day. I was up until 2am moving furniture and getting things ready that night, and then until almost that late the following night doing the same stuff after they'd pulled up the carpets and done their other initial work.
I got everything moved and protected before they started sanding, but it was a big job. Then I went to Ohio for the weekend and was so stressed and exhausted that I made HoFS miserable for a full 24 hours before I calmed down. Then we got caught in a traffic jam and I missed my plane home and when I got home I got to deal with sick kid (goopy crud running from her eyes; Aunt Pediatrician says it's a virus and there's not much to be done), putting the house back in order, retrieving much-healthier cat from vet, and getting ready to leave again to go to a wedding this weekend.
Isn't there a book called Women Who Do Too Much? I think I might be on its cover.
While I've been moving things around in the house I've been tossing as much clutter as I can. I've taken quite a few bags of stuff to the women's shelter and have another bag started. Today I'm going to list a desk and chair on Craigslist, and I have a few other things in mind that I can do that with.
But I've started to seriously consider a major simplification: selling my house. It'll be lovely when I'm done remodeling and having the drainage redone so the basement doesn't flood. And I'm going to replace the fridge and dryer, and I'll probably buy a new dishwasher too. And I need to paint -- the new floors really show how worn the paint is, and of course the baseboards are pretty battered now.
So it'll be in good condition if I do decide to sell it. (Or if I decide to keep living in it.)
But I've been fantasizing about a one- or two- bedroom apartment with much less space to keep clean. I think I might really like that. I don't know what I'd do with the cat (he might have to find a new home; another simplification) and I'd have to get rid of a lot of furniture (another simplification).
And gee, if I bought a condo, I bet I could live without a mortgage payment. That'd be a simplification for sure!
SO tempting sometimes. Dunno what I'd do with HoFS and his kids when they come to visit. Hmmmm. Hmmmmm.
"Sorry" SS, there's nothing to apologize for, at least for me.
Sorry for the way more than normal work load. Sorry it affects your ability to enjoy time with HoFS. Sorry for the money it costs that could go to vacation, or hobbies, or things you WANT, not things you NEED.
That book - about doing too much. I think it's called "Women who do too much, and what it actually costs them to do it."
High cost for some things, but sometimes there are no good ways out of it.
Notice Gray didn't comment. He doesn't like to admit he did well under fire. All the bad feelings he had may keep him from relalizing he looks pretty good for what happened to him. We can tease him though, and maybe draw him out.
He's a good sport about it, I'll say that for him.
Warning: this post does not end in me dating anyone.
I went to an event recently. While there, I met and briefly chatted with a young woman who is now after me. I'm not really interested, but I could tell she was. Now I have pressure from mutual friends who want my permission to give this girl my email. Trying to decide what to do there. Honestly, I don't even really remember what she looks like.
Sometime this week is the 1st anniversary of my divorce. I think it's about time to throw me a party.
[2long blows whistles, inflates balloons, passes out chinese finger puzzles 2 others around the fire, then walks over 2 the cooler and treats himself 2 another Arrogant Bas2rd Ale]
On a trip to Cancun before I met my daughters Dad, during a period of my life where I just basically wanted to "be" and wasn't looking to date anyone, my friends felt I needed to go out with someone in Cancun who wanted to go out with me. Well I wasn't in the least bit interested but they kept up the pressure, even to the point of saying I was being a real drag (or maybe it was a pain in the backside) because I wouldn't get together with any guys while we were there.
They ruined my whole vacation for me with their pressure and I ended up feeling like I was a drag and had let every one down.
Point of the story? Do what you want, with whom you want. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
GC, hon you are one smart cookie. Why? Because you are allowing yourself to really heal from the trauma of the A and D rather than masking the pain with the endorphins of lust. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I truly respect you.
[color:"red"] W[/color] [color:"green"] E [/color] [color:"blue"] A [/color] [color:"orange"] V [/color] [color:"yellow"] E[/color] [color:"purple"] R[/color] [color:"pink"] ! [/color] Hi ya, girlie! How is P?
Thanks FF. I went with NO on this one. It's funny, the other night I told the mutual acquaintance I wasn't interested, and I even gave her plausible deniability: "I've got too many irons in the fire," I lied.
Some people can't take a hint. She asked me to explain, so I admitted there were no irons. She'll never make it as a secret agent (the mutual acquaintance I mean).
FF, about what you wrote...
As recently as a few months ago I was often depressed and angry. Being alone has probably made it easier to be aware of the ebb and flow of all the emotions stemming from the loss. I'm finally getting the hang of being alone and I'm learning how to keep out of the weeds.
I wondered along the way if I was taking the wrong attitude, was "holding on to my anger", was "refusing to forgive", all that kinda stuff. Maybe. But all the rewiring and scar tissue development just takes a certain length of time and the philosophy you embrace doesn't change any of that. It just helps you through the day.
Regardless, I doubt I'd have been as aware of my own changes if I'd been with someone. Don't know if that'll make any difference in future relationships, but I'm better off for having paddled out of that mess on my own.
But easy on the attaboys. If the right person had come along to distract me, I doubt I'd have put up much resistance.
Oh Faith, she is doing great and we are having a really good summer. She is at work with me today and this weekend I am taking her camping up on the big lake with some friends of ours.
How about your little girl Faith, how is she doing?
but I'm better off for having paddled out of that mess on my own.
I totally agree with that statement. My guess is you will have the right perspective and tools to discern a healthy potential partner from one that is trouble in the making.
Weaver, sounds like fun going camping! My DD is doing great. Sigh.. she is growing up so fast all of a sudden. Takes her forever these days to primp in front of the mirror. Wants to go shopping all the time. Wants new clothes, new shoes.. where did my baby go? Well she still sits on my lap but she is nearly as tall as me now. She is such a lovely person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I know Faith, it's like BOOM and they are big people with a whole new set of challenges. I just love this age because she still thinks I'm cool and wants to do things with me, but she is her own little person with a budding personality that is awesome.
I got four tickets to a Staind concert for her upcoming birthday and I am letting her bring her little "boyfriend"...this is a huge thing for us, as it is her first concert where her dad wasn't the one playing on stage and she gets to bring "the boy". LOL
Not me! I haven't even heard from myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Update on things associated with me: DD was with me for 7 of the last 9 nights. A new record; the most in the last three years was 6 of 8.
DD has also been sick the entire time. That makes me a rather sleep-deprived pup. As of today she has been diagnosed with a sinus infection. Weird set of symptoms -- first a rash on her cheek, then goopy crusty eyes, a little bit lower energy than usual, maybe a low-grade fever sometimes, back pains, sore throat, circles under the eyes, swollen glands, and a slightly upset stomach. Took us ten days to decide it wasn't just a virus and take her to the doctor. (The first few days of that, her aunt the pediatrician was advising us.) She never seemed really sick -- she just didn't get healthier either. She's had one before and the symptoms were similar. That time it took us two weeks before we took her to the doc, so at least we're getting a little faster.
My furniture is more or less back in place. I still have many books, dishes, and linens to put away, but that's not as high a priority.
I finally got my replacement NAD receiver. It's an ancient one that I bought with my speakers (B&W DM 620s, for the audiophiles) 15 years ago. Yes, I could replace the whole system. But really, I said I'd replace this one when I could afford the one that I could tell sounded better -- which was about $25k at the time. I still don't have that kind of free cash. I haven't put the stereo back together yet, but it's on the list of things to do. Perhaps this weekend when HoFS is around to help. (I have many things on the list for this weekend. We won't get to all of them, but that's okay.)
I've been invited to a wine-tasting party this weekend and will take HoFS with me if I go. That should be fun.
HoFS and I went to a wedding in Michigan last weekend. He got to meet several college friends of mine, and they him. it went well.
One of those friends is someone I want to mention to you, Graycloud, in particular. My friend BC was married several years ago. His marriage fell apart in a way that was quite painful for him, as it played on many of his own feelings of inadequacy. It took him a very long time to heal -- I think it's been four years since he called me to tell me things were over.
I've seen him several times since then, and each time he's been different. At first he was so very sad that there was nothing there at all -- just a flat line existence, and sometimes only barely existing at that.
Later, he began to be happier and he learned a great deal about himself. He did a -lot- of hard work in healing those wounds and many others he came across along the way. His energy was much more cheerful, but still not quite right.
Last summer, about the time I got back in touch with HoFS, he met a woman whom he became quite fond of. He was hesitant at first -- he didn't think this woman really liked him. She was standoffish, cool, cautious, disinterested. Like the cat under the bed, you know?
But she kept showing up again, kept accepting his invitations for dates and activities.
He eventually got to a spot where he was very fond of her indeed -- and yet he thought, because of how she acted, that she had given up on him.
She finally admitted to herself -- and then to him -- that she loved him in February. It terrified her -- love came with great pain in her past.
They got married three weeks ago.
I saw him on Saturday and Sunday. Spending time with him was about like walking in a big, green woods full of giant trees and birdsong. It just made you relax completely. The not-quite-right feeling is gone completely.
It's been four years since he got divorced. It's been more like six since the real pain of the story began. He has a new wife, a new step-daughter, and a host of things he wants to do in his life before he's done, including having kids (he and his ex didn't have any). He's 43 years old.
So Gray, like Kate Bush sang, "Don't give up. Please don't give up."
Appy doesn't hang around here these days. I've seen him on ilul, though.
I was listening 2 i2nes a bit ago. Downloaded some more stuff, and like this song.
Sad lyrics, kind of a "it doesn't have 2 be this way" kind of song. But beautiful melody. And Peter Murphy has range 2 make a grown man cry...
Peter Murphy, "Strange kind of love"
"A strange kind of love A strange kind of feeling Swims through your eyes And like the doors To a wide vast dominion They open to your prize
This is no terror ground Or place for the rage No broken hearts White wash lies Just a taste for the truth Perfect taste choice and meaning A look into your eyes
Blind to the gemstone alone A smile from a frown circles round Should he stay or should he go Let him shout a rage so strong A rage that knows no right or wrong And take a little piece of you
There is no middle ground Or that's how it seems For us to walk or to take Instead we tumble down Either side left or right To love or to hate"
I wish she did not discover boys yet but she has, and they her. All I can do is watch her like a hawk and do a lot of praying that all the info and discussions re: sex that we have shared since she was old enough to start becomming curious has benefitted her. It is so scary but fun and exciting at the same time to see her becomming who she will become.
I had no info as a child/teen and in a lot of ways my parents failed us for this reason, even though they didn't know any better... but we do, so our children will have all the info they can handle to make good decisions with. (I hope LOL)
Quote
There is no middle ground Or that's how it seems For us to walk or to take Instead we tumble down Either side left or right To love or to hate"
2long,
It took me most of my life to understand that to love has very little to do with the other person and that love can never be lost because it is within us and only the form we project it on changes. Until I realized this fundamental truth I was unable to really love, to really be alone and at peace, or to be with someone else and at peace... now my world is happy and I carry this stability with me. Wow, it's been a long time coming and many hard lessons learned getting here.
JJ,
Your story about your friend reminds me of the four years I spent alone after my D's dad and I split. I had so much healing to do and had no desire to date, but I still had lessons to learn, hence Dan and that nightmare.
We go through what we go through because we need to, and like you said his divorce played on all his inadequacies, as they usually do and this is where the pain comes from, not the loss of love because love can never be lost, it is an energy which lives within us and I would imagine this was the lesson he needed to learn and how nice that he is now sharing his life with someone who has struggled as well.
I'm not convinced we could do anything differently than we do, seems like everything we do and all situations we find ourselves in are simply leading us up to where are going and must happen.
I guess this is what they mean by God's perfect plan.
Anyway I am listening to Anthony Robbins tapes at night and trying to work on my career mentality meaning I have been in this same job for 20 years and am scared to make a change. Where did that confidence go from 20 years ago?
Things are going really good with GB and me, we are planning a big buillia (spelling J?) party in August in Green Bay and if anyone is in the area the second weekend please let me know, I would just love to have anyone on this board come.
Love is not only not a feeling, it's not just a choice. It's a state of being.
These days, I think a lot more about the lessons we all need 2 experience as individuals for our personal growth, and a heckuva lot less about the "wrongs" I've been subjected 2. The A is still on my mind a good percentage of the time, but how it is is so different (and far less unpleasant) than it ever was before.
I think about the perspective of it all.
About getting over the bumps rather than forever changing lanes in hopes that the pavement's smoother elsewhere. It's still the same freeway, and the goal isn't the other lanes, it's the end of the line (or better, the view along the way).
Like someone said somewhere (I'm certain of this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), personal growth isn't easy. Nothing worthwhile is ever truly easy. Recovery isn't easy. But it can be enjoyable, and it's certainly interesting.
Regarding my own sitch, again. I still believe there's something I need 2 learn from this experience that I'm missing for whatever reason. But rather than fretting over what that is, I'm extending my feelers 2 be more receptive 2 the lessons I still need 2 learn.
This current hassle with my SIL over the 2nd house is a good example. I don't really worry about it all that much. I know that my W and I are doing our best 2 be as equitable as we can with her sister, in spite of her sister's behavior (she's always let her rage overwhelm her). I know that we'll be fair and thoughtful of all the players as we move forward with our plan, but we will most definitely move forward.
And stuff like that... (meaning, I got distracted just now and need 2 top my coffee cup off and try 2 figure out what I was going 2 say... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />)
-ol' 2long P.S. Did you see VnusMars' update a 2ple days ago?
Love is not only not a feeling, it's not just a choice. It's a state of being.
I have never heard it put this way before, especially regarding "choice", but I really do agree.
Sometimes I also wonder what particular lesson it is I am suppose to learn in a troubling sitch and like you not for too long because it really is fruitless, it'll just come when it comes in it's own good time...the meaning that is.
Not to get too metaphysical here, but I have to wonder if sometimes we are merely part of someone else's lesson, playing a role in their stuff, and how much it affects us (adversely) helps to show us how far along we are on our own journey to enlightenment, or self-actualization if you will.
Oh jeesh, must need some more coffee too...getting myself lost in my own philosophy and the point I was trying to make with it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Yes briefly as I had to get back to work, but I did want to say "hey" to him so thanks for reminding me. He really sounded good didn't he? I'm glad his self-esteem is getting back to a healthy level. (good choices will do that for ya. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)
Not to get too metaphysical here, but I have to wonder if sometimes we are merely part of someone else's lesson, playing a role in their stuff, and how much it affects us (adversely) helps to show us how far along we are on our own journey to enlightenment, or self-actualization if you will.
I think we are all mixed up together. We learn from each other, we are lessons for each other - and we are both a strength, and a test to each other - depending on the time frame.
Isn't it about time to spend some major time around the fire?
I'm over due........... it would be time well spent.
I think we are all mixed up together. We learn from each other, we are lessons for each other - and we are both a strength, and a test to each other - depending on the time frame.
Yes I agree SS. I think we all play a role as 2long quoted SC or someone, our souls are all co-creating on some level at all times. As we get older and reflect it becomes all too apparent that this is true, doesn't it SS?
Time around the fire? I missed this place last night, that's why I'm on here all day today I think.
No computer at home this summer, so for me next week is the soonest I can hang out again, but I'll be here with bells on hoping some of Kimmys chips and dip is left. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm tickled. My coworkers have to go make surveys out in the country all the time. One of 'em stumbled on dumping of LOADS of tile and cast off granite for countertops. She just brought me a largesh piece of pink granite (already smooth and polished on one side). If it was a teeny bit bigger I could use it as a bread board...as it is, tho, I'm gonna use it as a cutting board.
I'll be coming sometime this winter Kimmy, told little brother I would finally come have dinner with him and I will for sure let you know so we can hook up for dinner or something as well.
GB has a good friend there that he wants to meet up with also.
Small world Kimmy, and it just keeps getting smaller. Isn't it great? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Thanks Faithful, I am doing better, but my W has the same thing and stayed home today. Wonder where SHE got it from? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
You got your vacation on paper yet? I want to know where you go.
weaver, I'll be in Manitowoc the third weekend of August, rather than the second. Durn! I'd love to meet you. And I'll have HoFS and DD with me as well.
GC - You are adored more than you know....and I am sending you cyber hugs so tight your eyes'll bug out.
Just because...
SS - I AM GRAND!
A little headachy, but grand. NCW pointed out it's all in God's hands...so I'm not going to worry about it.
I don't think I posted it here, but I don't think VD's home study with the WGL went well. When the Wookie went to pick up the babies afterwards she just shoved them out the door and slammed the door in his face.
Hmm.
I was talking to DS16 last night and I told him about it. He said, "Did you doubt it would not go well?" I told him not really...I said it was a relief on one hand...but on the other hand I still want her to "mother up" for the babies. I know what we're doing is the best thing for them, but it aches because a mother shouldn't HAVE to have their children taken away...they should do everything they can to make the kid's lives better....
He (very sagely) told me that it is good that I know this....compassion is to precious to lose.
What a good boy. He's working hard at his first job. Just opened a bank account and is saving for his first car.
Dealen-de, that's one wise boy you've got. Sounds like you're raising him well. That's a good thing.
Gray, now you're in territory that's unfamiliar to me. I don't know what the signposts and terrain are like, I don't know how the weather tends to come and go. But I know it can be rough over there. Don't forget your sunhat and your rain gear.
Weaver, You seem to be doing really well. I'm temped to comment on what you don't say........... sometimes......... but since I don't know for sure, I tend to keep my mouth shut.
Hi SS! How's your summer going? Is this a busy season for your business or a slow one? How are the tomatoes? Anything else good in the garden?
I got 7 hours of sleep last night. That was good, though interrupted (DD still isn't feeling well, though she's better). The night before was less than 5 hours, though, and that always leaves me feeling groggy.
As for it being Friday? I know! Today I get to collect HoFS from the airport and then... well. You know. Smooch him and stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
It's busy J, but not as busy as we want. There has been construction on the main road nearest us, and it was closed for aqbout two months. Just happened to be our busiest two months, and it hurt.
Tomatoes - More than we have had in years. We made and bottled Chili sauce, Spanish sauce, and Spaghatti sauce.
The corn is gone for the summer. We ate most of it on the cob, but I did freeze a little.
Getting squash often.
Peppers all the time, I planted lots more than I usually do. Bell Peppers Sweet yellow banana peppers Anihiem - sorta hot Big Jim - mild Halapeno - hot
We did Boysenberry jam in June, more than we usually get. I can't believe how good freezer jam can be if you bottle it the day you pick the berries.
The grapes are coming on now, and the peaches are due in about two weeks. Come by after work, and I'll pick some tomatoes and stuff for you.
Sounds like you'll have a date tonight too - as will we.
I think it must be better for you then - I'll try not to worry so much. 7 hours is great, 5 is tough. I hope to get about 10 tonight - 10 hours in bed, don't know how much of it will be sleeping.
How long you are you guys going to live that far apart? (Not a fair question, but what the heck.)
Faithful, how about the dates for you? Things should be heating up at your house, and I don't mean the outside air temp. I hope it's really good for you and getting better.
I think it was last Sept you were ready to quit, and didn't see much hope. You should celebrate this year.
Faithful, how about the dates for you? Things should be heating up at your house, and I don't mean the outside air temp. I hope it's really good for you and getting better.
Hi SS. That jam sounds wonderful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We are getting out regularly. Not as much as Harley recommends but we are doing it. Walks, dinner dates and the other night the bookstore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We started this week working through Harley's workbook that goes with HNHN and Love Busters. I want to pick up Love Busters to read. After starting the workbook we agreed that is probably our biggest downfall is LB's and DJ's. Right now our agreement is working through the book 1x per week. I hope as interest grows so does the time we spend on it. For the most part things are good. The MB prinicples are making sense to his defogged brain. It feels like we are beginning to form a partnership. Still tentatively planning on that family vacation too.
Kimmy, you need someone like our W's caregiver. He is absolutely amazing and will put up with our DD too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Without him, there would be no dates.
So handcuffing them to their beds and leaving toon disney on the teles so they can watch is out?
Bummer.
Actually, I'm thinking about asking my sil to keep them the last weekend in September. My work is paying for a trip to the coast...family is invited...but it sure would be fun to go down there sans children.
When you have 8 (like we do) , you can say that with authority.
So cool Faithful - so wonderful. Love Busters was the most helpful book for me. It defined what I was doing wrong in easy to understand terms, and just as good, it made it plain how to AVOID LB's.
It also helped my W see what she was doing to trigger me. Not that it's an excuse, but by working together we have improved so much. Having it there in print was a really big help. I highly recommend it doing it the way you are doing it. We would even go to the park and lay on a blanket and fill out the work book, and talk about it. Took a picnic.
Too hot now, but we were doing it in the spring.
Yes Kimmy, sans kids would probably be good. And....... take extra time and stay the week. It can be so.......... good.
The other day I learned one of my work colleagues is leaving. We have a small office, and this person and I have worked well together. He's a terrific guy, and he does good work, and he loved it here, and he was stabbed in the back.
When he told me the story, his face trembled. He's deeply injured.
He's asked me to keep the things he's told me in confidence.
Is there anything I can do to ease his pain? There must be something.
How long you are you guys going to live that far apart? (Not a fair question, but what the heck.)
It's a good question, Still Seeking, and not one I have an exact answer to. I suppose I could put limits on it. The outside limit (assuming we're still together) is when HoFS' youngest son graduates from high school. He's going into fourth grade, so that will be another eight years.
I would like to find a way for it to happen sooner, of course. If anyone would like to participate in the planning and implementation committee, we're taking applicants now. Must have expertise in complex logistics and planning.
If anyone would like to participate in the planning and implementation committee, we're taking applicants now. Must have expertise in complex logistics and planning.
"Not with a ten foot pole" was what came to mind first off. LOL. I have been thinking about this one since I found out it was HoFS, and I nave not been able to come up with anything helpful yet.
GC, seems to me the best you can do is by your actions assure him there are honorable people in that organization and in the world. My guess is you already have which is why he confided in you.
If anyone would like to participate in the planning and implementation committee, we're taking applicants now. Must have expertise in complex logistics and planning.
"Not with a ten foot pole" was what came to mind first off.
Heh. Me too, SS, me too. HoFS and I talk about it. And then we set it down and go on to other things. And then we come back to it. We speak of a future together -- and look for ways to have that happen. Ways that will not harm us or our children or the other people who are important (and they are all important, one way or another). I'd like an easy solution. I'd like my ex's husband to get a job he can't refuse in, oh, Canton or Akron or Wooster. And my ex, I'd like her to find something she can't turn down in that area as well. I would go happily. I like the small town life much better than big city life. My boss would find me work to do, I suspect, rather than let me leave the company. And eventually I would find local work and be quite happy with that option.
I'm sure the reverse would work as well -- HoFS' ex finding work that would make her very happy in DC. Other than those options, though, it would take either me or HoFS uprooting our kids, or leaving them behind, for him and me to be together full time.
That's a very hard option indeed. We're both aware of the pain it can cause. Considerations like that led us to be separate before. HoFS hoped I could find someone local who would be "better" for me than he was. And he was dating someone, and I was too close to the end of my marriage, and ... you know all the reasons.
And so here we are. In love and still faced with the same intractable problems. Apparently we're not very good at picking "easy" options.
Our oldest three kids were born in the same town, but then we moved 5 times before the oldest was out of HS. New towns, new schools, new friends.
They tell me it was hard, but not a bad thing. They seem to have developed good life skills.
I worry more about the children of D. It breaks my heart, but I can't do much, except care for my own M, and my own children. It must be so confusing to them. I wonder how they reconcile it in their minds. What they want, with what they have.
Your situation is often on my mind.
I don't see easy answers - or a good timeline.
My dad used to tell me (when I was a teen) that it was just as easy to fall in love with a rich girl, as a poor one. (yes, he was teasin me.) I didn't do that, and I don't care. I am very happy and in love. It compensates for some things, but not for others.
Glad your home is doing better. It's hard to cope with so much at once.
I fell in love with a rich man. (Sorry, I can't explain the joke without HoFS' permission, but trust me, the humor is there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)
Ahem. Anyway, it seems to me that children whose parents divorce need more structure, more love, and generally more of everything. Instead, they often get less because their parents were wounded at the same time they were -- and so are unable to help their kids as much as they might like.
Healing is hard stuff. Every person, whether adult or child, does it differently. My cousins have lived through five or six of their parents' various marriages. Or, well, if you want to count the marriages of all the adults who actually brought kids into the picture, it's more like eight or ten or twelve. (My cousins' mom remarried. She and their step-dad had kids who are cousins of mine. Then they divorced, he remarried, made more kids, divorced again, married again into a family that already had kids, etc.)
It seems to me that they've learned to be a tribe unto themselves. They saw that the stability was not in their nuclear family, but instead in the unbreakable bonds of blood family and all being kids together. Blood of their blood is family -- so my first set of cousins has what they call "siblings in common." Their half-sister has other half-siblings. They are not blood relations. But they are family and remain that way in spite of the crazy patterns of realigning adult relationships.
Does this teach them anything good about marriage? Errrrr...... no. And they have had far-from-stable lives. They attribute this to growing up in a cult (which they did), but it also has to do with the instability of their nuclear family. And all of it has to do with the people who were their parents. I think they have learned something good out of the situation anyway. If nothing else, they've learned to be self-reliant and to survive in situations where I would have given up long ago.
I don't know how to relate this to what my daughter and HoFS' kids will experience. It's just the only example of a blended family that I have personal experience with, so it always comes to mind when I think about this stuff.
I had an "Outdoor survival" instructor way back in JC (the school, not the dude in the cloud), who told an interesting/harrowing story about swimming a mile in open water...
He was in Baja CA, and decided 2 swim out 2 an island that was a mile offshore. Halfway there, he noticed large, dark shapes beneath him. He stopped, and looked down 2 find about a dozen hammerhead sharks circling him. The largest was 15 or 20 feet long. 42nately, rather than panic, he did the 'strong swimstrokes' thang and swam on.
...but he re2rned 2 the mainland rather than continue 2 the island, in case he met up with the sharks again!
I was told a long time ago that I ought 2 have my wisdom teeth pulled before I 2rned 30, because it would be a lot painfuller (new word in 2long's dictionary) if I waited until I was 40ish. I never did.
When I was in my late 20's, they used 2 bother me, but stopped by my mid 30's, and haven't bothered me since.
My mom took me to the dentist to have my wisdom teeth looked at. The dentist told me I didn't have any wisdom teeth. My mom must have looked amazed. He looked at her and he said "no, he doesn't even have any wisdom teeth. He's too dumb."
W is going 2 her conference week after that, then home.
RM may be there, but he's not presenting if he is. I asked if she wanted me 2 go and she said she didn't, but in a manner that didn't sound red flaggish.
I figure I'll know if they hook up. And after all that's happened, I could simply accept that this is what she needs. So long as she lets me go.
But I have other reasons for believing that there's nothing 2 worry about - in addition 2 the fact that I'm simply not worried.
Uh, the mile was a small goal. It's like this: if you can freestyle a mile without stopping, you know you're fit enough to do bigger stuff. Maybe a triathlon.
I used to be a light smoker. When sparrow skedaddled I became a smoker. The combination of the lack of an appetite for something like 1.5 years, going on and off cigarettes, and going on and off anti-depressants, I was discombobulated.
I don't want to overstate it. I wasn't that screwed up. I was only a little screwed up. I also don't apologize for it. I was in ****** and doing my best to manage it.
But I finally got it together to start eating more and to stop taking on foreign substances. Decided to get strong.
Done.
Now possibly I can get happy. See? The physical part matters.
For the record, I would LOVE a cigarette right now. But not a chance, daddy.
We have two DIL's that have taken up triathlons. Everyone (here) says the swimming is the most difficult. One DIL is a former college swim team member. She says the running is more difficult for her.
I swam from 9-11th grade. I was asthmatic (i guess i still am...) and i feel that it helped a lot. Coach would kick my inhaler into the pool where i could not find it.
I gained 45 pounds my freshman year. I was 90 lbs when I started. And had a great physique all through high school.
I sure miss it. (the physique...)( i tried a pushup handstand the other day, and got a migraine and needed to go the chiropracter. Guess that extra 45 pounds ain't helping, now...)
We had some football players swim with us one time. They had a lot of respect for us after that day. One said it was the hardest thing he had ever done.
The hard part of swimming in high school (for a guy) is not embarassing yourself when you notice the girls. Takes the concentration of a buddhist monk on a month long fast.
And we had some nice looking swimmers.
I smoked one night, when I was in fourth grade. I was puking for a week after that. Never since then.
But every now and then, when someone else lights one up, I crave a Marlboro light 100. My dad smoked them when I was at his house visiting. Interesting phenomenon.
This is going to be long (but quick as I have tons of work to do today and shouldn't be here).
I did take P camping up to a particularly nice bay on Lake S. last weekend. We stayed in an Inn and just visited our friends at the campground off and on. We rented a couple of bikes and road all over, just the two of us and really had a good time. Even went up to the Two Hearted River Hemingway wrote of and it was very beautiful. I would have liked to have canoe'd it, but I won't canoe alone with my D for safety reasons, so we didn't.
To get to the point of my post though, which was prompted by the talk of smoking...
I caught my beautiful little 11 yo P smoking the other night with two other little girls in my neighborhood. I tried not to over-react but I have to tell you it just about floored me, they are so little and I just didn't think they would be curious this early.
I called the other parents and then her Dad. Her dad and I decided she would be grounded for a week from all contact with her friends and that she no longer is allowed to stay alone, so she went back out to his house (in the country) to stay until next week when she and I are going on vacation up to Green Bay.
Her dad got a job five hours away and starts soon but hadn't approached me until the other night on how we would handle custody.
Catching her smoking was probably a good thing in a way, as it finally got her dad to see that she needs to live in one home and visit the other. This joint shared custody has never been good for her and now after four years, he can finally see this as well.
I am very, very happy about this. She will stay with me this school year until next summer when I move unless she starts to go down the wrong path and if that happens she will go to live with her dad in his new city. We have been looking at various transportation options for visitation...bus, amtrac and plane.
She also is no longer allowed to have a "boyfriend" as he told me that on his last night of playing in his band when he took this boyfriend and her to watch him, they were holding hands and being too physical for 11 year olds...anyway we decided she is making decisions which are not in keeping with her age, so no more boys either.
She seems okay with everything, if I had to guess I would even say she seems very happy, even about the grounding, so maybe this is what she was looking for, bigger rules and more parental intervention. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
GB gave me a diamond promise ring not too long ago. It is just beautiful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Not big and fancy, very simple and very pretty. And I am off to Green Bay tonight for a couple of days.
I feel very lucky and blessed by GB and the fact that P's dad and I are working together once again in P's best interest.
She seems okay with everything, if I had to guess I would even say she seems very happy, even about the grounding, so maybe this is what she was looking for, bigger rules and more parental intervention.
ITA. I also agree she needs ONE home and visit the other. Too confusing for them at that age. She needs rules, guidance and to know what being a child is. No boys at 11. I don't even allow my DD 13 to consider boys.
Do you let her talk on the phone and have boys for friends? This is the dilemma I am really facing. Where to draw the line and make the rules from.
Talk on the phone with boys who she says are just friends?...or not at all.
Hang out with a boy?
I had friends who were boys at that age, however only in a group and can't remember ever holding their hands or anything. We didn't talk on the phone back then at that age, so I have nothing to base from as far as experience goes.
I've been thinking about your sitch JJ, about the long distance problem and with a child as young as yours I just can't come up with any ideas to help. Mine is olde enough now that we can live a distance apart, but for all these years I had to stay in this town so she would be by her dad.
Now, that helps you not at all, but I do sympathize and understand the dilemma you face.
We both know all about serendipity and universal forces working in your favor, so don't dispair...the answer will come.
Weaver, DD has one friend that is a boy. They have been friends since birth. We are close friends with his parents. They don't chat on the phone but they do hang out together and we all attend church together. The time spent together is under the eye of one set of parents or another. As they get older, I will likely limit time spent together even more.
She knows that boyfriends, dating and the like are not on her agenda for quite some time. She knows that trouble can brew from things as innocuous as holding hands, as you have experienced with P. We have very specific open talks.
Yes, very specific open talks! We do too, and you know of my FOO and although I had loving parents I don't think I had good role models for parenting...KWIM? Addicts don't really have good rules. LOL
So I guess I will use you guys as a sounding board, leveling board and reality check, if you don't mind.
My boyfriends mother called me after she heard the news (her son called her and asked her if he could loan her to me...sweet, hey?) anyway, she raised 10 kids through very trying financial times and she made me see how it is important to be very strict on the big things, not the small things and these problems we are now running into are big things.
Strict without hitting (of course) and without belittling, or talking down to.
I'm am excited for her teen years and scared out of my gord! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, my parents were not good role models either though I think my dad really tried. I muddled my way through my teens and I want to be a guiding light for my DD. She has a strong faith and whenever she waivers I just ask her what what would Jesus think if he were in the room with her? I am excited about the teen years too.
Good discussion - We have always told our daughters no dating, and no boy friends until they are 16. It worked with the oldest two - in fact the oldest told me once she figured we saved her so much grief.......... she was happy for that rule.
The twins are 13 (both are girls) and have lived under this rule all their lives. It's just a way of life to them, so it hasn't been an issue at all.
I figure if they do complain, I'll just have them listen to "Turn! Turn! Turn!" by the Byrds and tell them it's not their time yet. I don't know if they are mature enough at 16 either, but it's lots better than 13, or 14......... LOL.
With mothers like the two of you, I have high hopes for your daughters.
I figure if they do complain, I'll just have them listen to "Turn! Turn! Turn!" by the Byrds and tell them it's not their time yet. I don't know if they are mature enough at 16 either, but it's lots better than 13, or 14......... LOL.
Nobody should date before they are 30, in my honest opinion, and the reasons why are way too many to list.
Start dating at 30, find a marriage partner and be married a couple of years later or so, and then have babies with the full understanding of what it means to be a marriage partner and parent...for life!
And by 30 you are well rounded enough (hopefully) to know who you are and what you are looking for.
Have a good weekend all...
I have about 8 hours of work to get done in the next half hour (really need to work on my self-discipline) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
My oldest daughter took an interresting approach to dating.
She had two close friends, and they made a pact.
1. Never date the same boy more than once. (until you decide to start looking for the person you want to marry.) 2. Group date - go places with groups of boys, and girls together. 3. Dating can help you learn about people, and about boys - remember that's what you are doing. It's too early to be in love. 4. Have fun. 5. Make no promises - be up front and honest about why you accepted the date. Don't lead anyone on.
I can't remember all of it, but that's the way she looked at it until she got older and felt she was ready to look for someone.
1. Assume that you're too fat and ugly to ever date anyone. 2. Develop a crush on the one boy who talks to you. Keep crush alive even after he starts dating someone else. Keep it alive, in fact, for nearly three years. 3. Finally date the boy after your freshman year of college. Smooch him a few times. Discover it feels wonderful. 4. Catch mono from him. 5. 3 months later, discover that he got back together with his girlfriend from high school while you were away with your parents on vacation. 6. Kick him out of your life permanently. 7. Accept dates and have sex with pretty much anyone after that, because... see rule 1.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, was my life from 16 to 22. I sincerely hope that I've learned something, but it's been pretty slow learning. I'm not very bright sometimes.
(Yes, rule 1 has finally left the room. It took me 20 years, but I did it.)
Just J, your rules look a lot like mine did... except I had the added element of living through the disco years when "everyone was doing it" and was "looking for love in all the wrong places"...
J, I had a similar experience except I "gave myself away" to the first boy who pretty much asked at age 17. I started dating my first real b/f at 17/18 and that lasted a year. After that until my H no R lasted over a year. I got from that experience my DS born out of wedlock and a lovely STD from one of my ex b/f's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I am very lucky, all in all. You were doing that stuff before AIDS was a major factor, NB. I decided to start it at about the same time as the AIDS epidemic began to affect the heterosexual population.
And yes, SS, it's a painful journey. I wouldn't have said so at the time, oddly enough. I would have said that sex was a fun and generally harmless pastime. That should be enough for anyone to figure out that I didn't get it. But I didn't get that I didn't get it, so I got extra rounds. And I have to count the number of people I've slept with in my life using my fingers and my toes. Of those... perhaps five were worth it.
Sigh. I'm going to have a beer, some chocolate, and play video games now. I get to do this about once every six months. I'm going to revel in it.
(Okay, I wrote this an hour ago and it didn't go through. Beer, chocolate, and video games are in full swing.)
Around 10:00 this morning I arrived home from the oral surgeon, feeling woozy but suprisingly good.
Painted some parts of a house resto project, started kicking around the idea of mowing the lawn. Hardly seemed necessary I should lay around all day. Sure, my face was all swollen and I was bleeding, but big deal, right?
Then my blood pressure bottomed out and I started to sweat. I popped a pair of Vicodin and just made it to my bed before passing out.
Woke up mid-afternoon, went to get the mail. Heard my name. My roommate's girlfriend, coming up the walk. She handed me a strawberry milkshake and headed off to work. Heck of a girl.
My genetic aversion to lounging hit. No solid food for the next few days, so I made a pureed soup from home-grown basil and summer squash, watered my sick shrubs, did some resto work. Drove my car (!) to the library, swung over to the co-op and bought more ice cream. Talked to my folks.
Recovering from oral surgery is fun! They gave me tons of drugs, bless their hearts.
I'm scared for you both, FF and weaver, and glad for you. I'd love to have a daughter some day.
Recovering from oral surgery is fun! They gave me tons of drugs, bless their hearts
Enjoy those drugs, GC! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would be the same way, couldn't sit still and recuperate. Almost blew the surgery I had three years ago trying to do too much. That was giraffe that brought you the shake? Kewl.
A few minutes before the surgery, the doctor came in to introduce himself. Gave me the usual due diligence schpiel about "this is a surgery and the following disastrous things are possible..."
He fetched his two female assistants, and the three began preparing me. They worked fast and didn't say a word. The needle went into my arm. They put a gas-administering gadget over my nose.
Finally the doctor spoke again. "Doug, you may feel a slight tingling--"
I stopped him. "My name is not Doug, it's Gray."
That's my last memory before waking up on the vinyl couch in the recovery room. Far as I can tell, they didn't perform the operation meant for "Doug" on me instead.
When a freshman, I had all four removed, went home and rode my motorcycle, then had a hamburger for dinner. I hear it does not work that way for most....
I had a sad, sad evening.
My last two years of high school I was in the All State Baptist youth choir. Two or three of my friends and I went together, and made a ton of great friends from all over the state. Particularly a young lady from near the coast. We developed a tight freindship in that week, and she drove 5 hours several times that year to come see us. She seemed particularly interested in one of my friends and myself. My friend ended up the one kinda "dating" her, but she and I still talked and wrote a bit. The second year of all state cemented the friendship even more. We stayed in touch through college. It was crazy how far that woman would drive, to show up un-announced for an evening of just kicking around. She would drive back that night. (5 hours one waY!!)
She was a great singer, and played the guitar. She was in shows all over the state, and I have fully expected to see her on TV or hear her on the radio by now. I have always wondered what she did. Where she went.
She sang like an angel.
One of the last times I saw her, I drove to Galveston and we went to the beach together. We just stood, with the cold wind blowing against our faces. I held her, and we watched the ocean for an hour or two. She would have married me if I had ever asked her, I believe. She was such a loyal friend, that i know she would have been a wife loyal to her death.
Tonight I was researching on the internet, to see if I could find out what became of her. I found her name and the name of the man she married.
I googled her married name. It was in some headlines.
Four years ago, she was loyal to her death. Her husband, a minister, beat her to death with a table leg, and then went to a strip bar. The reports described her being found in her pajamas in a pool of blood. I can not get that picture out of my head.
My heart has broken again. I went to the ocean, and cried, and screamed at God.
I feel as if I could have been the lucky man to have had her loyalty.
JJ, NB, FF, GC - thank you. I appreciate your presence.
I feel that my life will be forever changed by this event.
I spoke with her mom yesterday. She was fairly amazed that I called on the 4 yr anniversary. We had a good conversation. I did not know her mom. She said that "it" has never let up. Not a day goes by that she does not think of her sweet daughter. Apparently she googles her name at work every day, to see if there is new information.
It was weird driving on Friday night. I recently took a critical incident stress management course. I was experiencing and recognizing firsthand the shock through which one goes in an event like this.
NB - it is far sadder than it sounds. Turns out the 2 year old probably witnessed it, then lived with his father who was out on bail for several months. The 6 week old who was still nursing was likely left in the crib by himself all afternoon while his father washed the blood out of his truck and cleaned off his shoes.
Her mom lives with these thoughts every day.
It is an unresolvable situation. The husband, who is in jail, has never since spoken to the family. No apology - no explanation, no confession of what exactly happened. He maintained his innocence, up until the trial was about to start, then plea bargained and plead guilty.
This has changed my outlook on life, my thought pattern. I assume it will subside - but I am changed.
I think I was urged by God to jump in at this point. Possibly to help her mom get to a better place. I will stay in touch with her. I do not think it a coincidence that I found out exactly when I did. And that I was able to contact her mom.
Anyway - I have three beautiful kids to raise - a wife (of whom I am at this point unaware) to pray for, and life to live. I need to go visit my grandfather who lives 1000 miles away. He will not know me - but it is important. (something about a dream, and my grandmother who died over a year ago, and her concern in that dream that we were travelling and left him behind...)
The pain is subsiding faster than I thought it would. But I feel the patina of cynicism, and the thread of sadness that I feel will remain forever.
I sure appreciate your thoughts - your compassion - your prayers.
Shul, I am sorry about the continuing affair. Stay well and strong. I hope you're able to prevent harm, where you can.
FAR, I've been thinking about your friend a lot tonight. One of the things I thought about was how that beautiful woman probably had a mom who mourned her daughter. And little children? I can't even comprehend it. I truly cannot.
When there is a death, the best thing it can accomplish is to bring the living together. I hope that can happen here, somehow.
There are days when I wander onto MB and I am so happy that there is a resource for people in such great pain.
Today isn't one of those days. I think I'm sadder for the people who are being triggered than the ones who are looking for help. I hope they all find some peace.
Nah, weaver. It just means that you're more detached (in the good way) than I am. I think some of it is because I found support here even though my marriage is so far from the norm. It's really sad to me to see people treated so badly.
I know, too, that I'm not always compassionate, either. That man FAR talked about. I don't think I could be compassionate with him. Like the Dalai Lama said (I'm paraphrasing) about some soldiers who beat a child to death with a pipe. "I try to forgive. Those men? If I had a gun, maybe I would have killed them. Sometimes the finger [making a pulling-trigger motion] moves faster than compassion."
I think folks here have had the time to stop their trigger fingers. But they don't know how, so things get ugly. It makes me sad. And tired.
I like the analogy about the trigger finger being faster than compassion, unfortunately true for all of us, especially when there is more healing to do.
My delete finger is now pretty dang fast, so I delete almost as much as I write these days, thankfully. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It's good to be able to put down the gun and take back the bullets. I try to do that too.
It's been a rough week in MB-land. I wonder if anyone else would like to join us around the campfire.
I suppose it's unlikely that we could get the various factions to declare a cease-fire. Kinda makes you understand how the whole Middle East crisis can be so hard to find answers to if we can't even find peace amongst a bunch of English-speaking Westerners, most of whom are in the US and most of whom grew up in Christian or secular Christian families.
I wonder what Jesus or Buddha would say if they found their way here.
I think she meant to say hi Faith, not hi Weaver <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, so I'll say it for her. Hi Faith!
Hi Gray,
I have things to say to you, but they say never tell someone something he already knows so I won't say it (not this morning anyway). It has to do with your comment about wanting some chitlens someday.
Oh heck I'll say it anyway...
Don't wait too long! Dating should be like realizing any other dream...you start with the desire, visualize it in detail and as often as you can, pursue it with passion.
If you truly want children, then start looking for a wife. Treat it like a job. That's what my boyfriend did, and he went through quite a few before he met me. What he wants is a wife, so he set about to find one.
We were alike in that way, GB and me, as I drew up what I wanted in a partner and then set out to find one who had the qualities I was looking for.
I decided to take my mom's advice from years ago and choose the one I wanted, not wait for someone to choose me. When I did that, wait for someone to choose me, I always ended up with nothing like what I would have chosen had I done the choosing.
OOooooooops! Yes, I did mean Hi Faith! *sigh* My brain is mush.
Hey Gray, have you done some serious work around having kids? Really visualized it, done a little prayer and fasting while meditating on it, that kind of thing? (Fasting is good for you. Hmmm. You're kinda fasting right now, with the mouth all wonked up.)
I'd like to know what Mrs. Graycloud-and-all-the-kids looks like to you. What are -you- doing in that picture? How much of the time? How much are you out supporting the family versus right there changing diapers? How much is Mrs. Graycloud doing those things? How many miniGrays are there running around?
Oh, and I've seen you with a baby. I liked what I saw. I think a few of 'em would be a very good thing for you.
Someone who had such a profound impact on people's lives through the simple but wondrous things they did in life will always live on in our memories.
I just realized that my dad passed away a year ago. I think about him from time 2 time. I think about things he did that speak about his character, stuff he did that still makes me giggle a bit. Those memories are as fresh as if I was witnessing them firsthand again. This might sound odd, but because of that, I find I don't really miss him. But then, he lived a full life and it may have been his time. FAR's friend had so much living 2 do.
Shul: First 2uestion: How do you feel about what's happening?
Thanks J, I never let everyone know when I should. Forgot to send my brother a wedding invitation to # 3 son. Brother had to call me and ask if he was invited or if he should stay away to save on the food budget.
Sorry FAR. I suspect SHE is happier now. Feel more sorry for those who knew her, and especially the children. The good ones are always missed.
I hope not to wear you guys out. I am still in shock over my discovery, but the pain is subsiding a lot. I feel better, but a lot of thoughts are going through my mind. Hardly a moment goes by that I am not aware of the travesty, while not particularly focused on it. Several times an hour I DO focus on it. There is a lot to work through.
Many more memories are coming back, now. When I last saw her - at the beach watching the cold waves, I held her and wondered - "should I put my current serious GF on hold, and explore the possibilities with this woman??" It is the only experience like that I have had. I was eventually betrayed by that GF. But it got complicated - we were married for almost 15 years, have three wonderful children - you all know.
I do not know God's plan. I believe I am in it now to help her mom heal. (did I already say that?)
Many here have had deaths of family or friends - I feel compassion for all of you that I have read about.
Thank you for your thoughts and compassion. I appreciate you all. You are really the only people I can talk to about this right now, what with the abduction and all.
Did I mention I do not like beer?
Got any Seagrams and coke?
Ever had Churros from Pollo Loco? I love those things.
2Long - nice thoughts about your dad. Grandma died just over a year ago. I love my memories of and with her. She was SO, SO COOL. I do not feel bad about her dying. She visited me last friday night, in a dream. I think she wants me to go visit my grandfather who has alzheimers. 93 and going strong. With no knowledge of who most peoples identity.
I am reading Ann of Green Gables to DS7 and DD5 at bedtime. A fun book for them.
FAR, Anne of Green Gables is one of my favorite books ever. I read it over and over and over when I was a kid. What a wonderful one (and all its sequels, of course!) to read to your kids. I bet that if you read the whole series to them, you'll still be reading next year at this time. Golly, now I want to go read it again myself!
And then there is your friend's death. You didn't mention what's happened to the children? Are they with their grandmother now, or some other relative? How have their lives progressed in the last four years? That's another area where, maybe, you might be of help.
Yea - I have enjoyed it myself. I did not know there were sequels. My DD13 is a voracious reader (finished Rebel Beauty - Libba Bray) in approximately 24 hours. As in - had it finished 24 hours after we purchased it. I love that. She will enjoy the Anne of Green Gables series. I will look it up. The younger ones are liking this one.
The kids have gone to live with one of their father's brothers. He is married to a woman that could not have kids, and my friend's mom thinks it the best place for them. She feels that the woman will love them more because of her issue. I now live 1500 miles from that area, and will not likely get any exposure to them - but life takes strange turns sometimes, so I can not say it won't happen.
My kids call eachother big head sometimes. It is true. My head is tiny (I adjust headphones to the smallest setting) XW has a huge head, and all three of the kids got the huge head. Had to cut all three of 'em out.
Anybody getting any good meteor activity from the Perseids? Stinking full moon.....
Speaking of memories and legacies, I came across this poem 2day:
"I read of a man who stood to speak at the funeral of a friend. He referred to the dates on his tombstone from the beginning to the end.
He noted first came his date of birth and spoke the following date with tears, But said what mattered most of all was the dash between those years.
For that dash represents all that time that he spent alive on Earth . . . And now only those who loved him know what that little line is worth.
For it matters not how much we own: the cars . . . the house . . . the cash . What matters is how we live and love and how we spend our dash.
So think about this long and hard . . . are there things you would like to change? For you never know how much time is left that can still be rearranged.
If we could just slow down enough to consider what's true and real, And always try to understand the way other people feel.
And be less quick to anger, and show appreciation more, And love the people in our lives like we've never loved before.
If we treat each other with respect, and more often wear a smile . . . Remembering that this special dash may last only a little while.
Weaver, that's not a bad description of my approach. Though you might be surprised... primarily the job has 'til now consisted of getting personal stuff handled. Establishing myself in a stable and manageable cold war with the past. Building up resistance to loneliness and despair. Getting friendships where they oughta be. Learning not to count on other people for anything. Making sure the people in my life know they can count on me. Getting physically healthy. Getting my spiritual life on a trajectory that makes sense. Getting to where if some chick rejects me I don't care.
As for the future Mrs. Cloud... I'm not getting seriously involved with someone unless she makes my socks roll up and down. I create plenty of occasions for that to happen.
J, I don't do that stuff... meditating, or imagining the people I hope to have in my life. I don't doubt it's worthwhile. Possibly I'll try. But children are not a prerequisite for me.
I'm swamped by narcotics and may regret hitting the "continue" button, but what the heck.
You think that’s bad? Good thing we aren’t around a real campfire. About an hour with my humor and you’d run off screaming into the night.
“Probably should have broken your typing fingers so we'd have peace.”
Speaking of which, a funny thing happened on the way to the forum...
Yesterday evening I was putting the finishing touches on a rock wall I’m building out back. It’s a roughly four foot high semicircular wall using 500 – 1000 lb basalt boulders. It will enclose a fire pit. I use a hand truck to move the rocks up and down a dirt ramp I will remove when done. Sort of like how they built the pyramids.
Anyway, I veer from the point. I dropped a 300-pounder or so on my hand. Squished my thumb. No broken bones, but it hurts, and it certainly looks like it feels.
A visit to the doctor, many pain pills and a sleepless night later I presented my invited paper at an international conference a couple of hours ago.
My hand is all bandaged up and rigid. But I needed to use this hand to wave the laser pointer around.
So I took some duct tape out of the truck and taped the laser pointer to the back of my hand.
Worked like a charm. I cruised right through it.
But the audience was rather of open mouthed.
Because of the way my hand is bandaged the middle finger is extended. Seems whenever I raised my hand to point the laser at a screen it looked to the audience like I was giveing them the light show version of...ah...perhaps you get the picture.
Several in the audience told me it was the best presentation of the session, though.
And two people said it was the funniest.
That last Vicodin a half hour before stepping out to the podium might have helped some in this regard – I don’t remember, actually.
Well it's high time you learned how 2 pronounce it, then! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
"Aphelion: n : apoapsis in solar orbit; the point in the orbit of a planet or comet that is at the greatest distance from the sun [ant: perihelion]"
as opposed 2
"Perihelion: n : periapsis in solar orbit; the point in the orbit of a planet or comet where it is nearest to the sun [ant: aphelion]"
or, for short: "Appy"
I will note, though, that dictionary.com shows the pronunciation of aphelion wrong - the way all ya'all pronounce it, like with an "f". But since the suffix for both words is "helion" as in "helios" - the sun - it ain't right 2 pronounce it that way.
And then there is Parhelion (n): a bright colored spot on a parhelic circle, often seen in pairs and caused by ice crystals in the atmosphere diffracting light. Also called sundogs.
Dante mentions sundogs in Paradiso. So they must have been around a while, huh.
I'm going to Ohio and then to Indiana to meet HoFS' parents and other family members this weekend. I don't know which is worse, the thought of flying with that many cranky annoyed passengers (because they couldn't bring their shampoo and extra-foamy double tall chocolate caramel with whipped cream cappucino on board). It should be ... interesting.
It is as-yet undetermined how many of HoFS' boys will be willing to get in the van to take this trip. They would all be going if I weren't going. This makes me feel... icky. And there are not many good choices unfortunately.
Anyone else show up? Seems like we could use a guitar and some singing.
Aye - we could. I don't know if Gray has time. He seems to do a lot of hiding out these days, so the girls can't find him. I'm not sure why he was ever worried.
We had no boys at all with us on the trip to Indiana. That made HoFS sad. Me too. There's a lot of hurt in their world and I am part of it -- just by being attached to their dad. I hope I can one day be something else to them. Note to those who might worry -- I don't take this as being about ME at all. It's obviously not about me. Anyone standing in the "HoFS' girlfriend" role would get this. And if there weren't anyone in that role, I think they would find someone or something else to use the same way.
On my side of the fence, DD was totally uninterested in talking to me the whole weekend. I think she hung up on me eight or nine times. Phone etiquette and 3yos do not mix very well.
The weekend itself, though, was marvelous. We had a nice hotel room all to ourselves, we had breakfast at the hotel and a place to work out, a nice drive each way, and generally lots of quiet time with each other. We need that as much as we can get it. It's hard to get 15 hours of couple time each week when you live so far apart. The weekends of staring into each other's eyes are important.
We also had a good visit with HoFS family. Yes, I have Met The Parents... and the brother, and the sisiter, and the rest of the extended family too. They are very nice people. No surprise, since HoFS is very nice people himself.
And I got to see the family farm (which someone else farms for them now that HoFS' Dad is retired). Very cool. Big machines. Tall corn. Green bushy soybeans. I ooooed and aaaaaahed and hope I didn't make too much of a fool of myself. ("You.... grow things here, is that right?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)
The best part of all, I think, is when HoFS holds me in his arms and I realize all over again how utterly amazing it is that this wonderful, strong, thoughtful, loving man loves ME. Of all the people in the world, he loves me.
Today I had dinner w/my brother. He has a new girlfriend, and it's going very well between them. I'm pleased. If it keeps going this way... I'll be the first of the brothers to have been married, and the last to be single. Neato.
Speaking of vegetables, J... does anyone else have tomatoes everywhere they look? August is the best month. I was born in August.
I have a party on Saturday, and I need to do something cool w/tomatoes. My kitchen is filled with them. I know I could get some cheese and put it in w/the tomatoes and the leaves off my chest-high basil plants (I'm so far on top of keeping them from budding) and a bit of balsamic and be done. That just seems LAZY. Not to mention that the stuff becomes wet and nasty after it sits there a few hours and the fresh mozzarella gives up its water and wilts the leaves and creates a room-temperature atrocity that nobody wants. Hm, maybe it would be better to keep the tomatoes and cheese and vinegar separate from the leaves, let people throw the leaves in when they dish it up. Keep the wet stuff in a bowl of ice and it's cold for a long time. Possibly. Nah, too fussy and delightful.
I'll do a few fancy schmancy things. Having a squeeze bottle of basil-infused olive oil around is an easy way to impress people, and no I'm not talking about where you stuff a bunch of leaves into a bottle of oil and try to use it six months later. Yech. This stuff, this oil I'm talking about, is powerful. Squeeze it onto some decent ravioli (the kind you make with wonton wrappers is easy and tastes very good), shred a bit of Parmiggiano-Reggiano over it (don't skimp - pay the $17 a pound if you can, just once a year), and tada. You don't need sauce, dude! Especially if you put something good in the ravioli.
Did y'all know I first started reading MB forums from a computer in an Internet cafe in Parma, Italy, where Parmaggiano-Reggiano was invented? Trivia. I'd just gone into a beautiful, dark, and truly silent cathedral and prayed to Whatever Higher Power Might Listen and asked what do I do about my steenking wife?
Tomato consomme is good. You chop tomatoes and just one or two chipotles in a processor, put it in a bag made from a towel, and hang the thing to drain into a bowl in the fridge overnight... then strain it again and keep it chilled. I don't know what happens exactly, but the barely-red clearish stuff you get when you let those suckers drain on their own without any coaxing is... just... better. Plop a few peeled sweet 100 tomatoes in a cup with the chilled consomme, sprinkle a bit of sea salt in there, and again you impress people without having done all that much. Nah, that's way too precious.
I do not generally purchase, cook, or eat meat from mammals, except once in a blue moon or when someone offers it to me. Meaning, I never refuse food that's offered or demand that the person who's cooking make something special for me. If I stumble across a pepperoni pizza and someone offers me a slice, you'd better believe I'm eating it. Though... I have no problem saying no to cantaloupe. Yuck. Anyway, this time of year, I'm making an exception, and buying several pounds of bacon, and at my party one of the things we'll have will be BLTs, on grill-toasted bread. Though fans of Miracle Whip will be disappointed. If my roommate has some I suppose I'll allow it, but gross. Hey, how do you make a ton of toast and keep it warm without it becoming soggy or dried out?
Help me w/more party food ideas. They can't be hard. I won't have time. I'll be scrambling. In the non-tomato category I'm having cold sesame-noodle salad, which only the insane don't like, so I plan to make a bathtub-full. And if Jayne brings potatoes home from his mother's garden like he promised, then some kind of potato salad also.
More, more, more! I'm setting aside two full days to cook for this thing. I'm going to break my kitchen for sure.
I have San Marzano tomatoes also and would love to strain them myself and make pizzas on the grill, but forget it. It'd destroy my kitchen, and I'd be exhausted, and I'd have to make everyone eat at the same time which is no fun at a party.
But I should do something on the grill, and I'm not doing hot dogs and all that (see above mention of not buying and cooking meat from killed mammals). Kabobs... yeah, I guess, and chicken I definitely will eat, but snore. Been there done that. But there definitely oughta be something hot.
Wow, what a bunch of interesting posts since I was last here.
Gray, one word - tinfoil. Make that two - cool!
FAR, I can't even imagine what your friend's family is going through, or you, or any of the people who cared about her. And yes I would imagine you have a purpose in all this.
Found out the other day that my ex (blech, how did that happen, not the ex part but that he was something in my life at all enough to even become an ex, double blech) got married a couple of months after I signed the property over and he dumped me, and bailed on the big trip with P and me. Surprise, surprise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
He married a Native American woman, and built a brand new house over on the property probably with tribal money. She's not of the tribal band native to the island, but a band way up north, where he used to spend a lot of time. Did I say surprise yet?
Now this man who professes to believe in a literal heaven and h*ll tricked me out of my property and promptley married the woman he was cheating on me with, using her money to build a house and develop the property. This is the same God fearing man who lied to me for eight months about his marital status to his third wife, and according to his own belief system is on a fast track straight to h*ll.
I wonder how he will get rid of this wife, I'm thinking poisen wouldn't be beneath him. Or maybe he'll just drive her insane with his lying, cheating ways until she off's herself, who knows.
Anyway, I'm thinking a copy of Dante's "Inferno" mysteriously dropped in his mailbox just might get the ole guilt induced paranoia ball rolling for him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If he really does believe how he professes to believe, he's got to be one scared little rabbit, wouldn't you think?
So in honor of Nad and his marriage to most unfortunate bride #4, going out over the airwaves this morning is -
ACDC's "Highway to H*ll"
And now I have a call to make to the DNR regarding many, many truckloads of sand being illegally dumped on a certain island waterfrontage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Right after that I'm going to get back to the business of forgiveness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Weaver - an island would be a good place to bury someone! What an absolute low-life. What goes around comes around and he won't get away with such bad behaviour forever. Scumbag piece of poo. People need to prove themselves worthy of forgiveness IMO so I wouldn't bother about sending any his way. TT
Hi TT, wondered if you were around today to read that.
The forgiveness I'm speaking of is of myself, for allowing myself to be victimized that way.
You may think that it was all about a higher purpose that I studied forgiveness after what happened happened, but really it was because I know that without true forgiveness one will forever remain in victim mode mentality.
Forgiveness takes away my victim status, in my own mind.
It's a concept that I fear a lot of BS's on this site don't understand.
You cannot triumph from being victimized unless you change your perception, and I believe forgiveness allows us to do that.
Self-forgiveness, is what I am talking about... mostly, but not all..
Weaver - I know when you signed over the island to him, it was a relief for you at the time. It just all seems so bloody unfair. That island could have been an MB retreat. I'd have paid good money to visit you there and watch the sun go down.
Seriously, it stinks, but you sound great. How's the new b/f?
TT, you never know what the future holds. When I get some extra money I will hire a real estate atty and pursue the improper deed transfer.
According to my friend who is a real estate broker, that since I did not sign a quit claim deed, the transfer of deed to him is invalid. The Title Co. that handled it and wrote the 10K check to me really, really screwed up I guess.I was buying it on land contract so didn't have a mortgage company involved on my end.
I was getting phone calls from his mortgage company to sign a quit claim deed but I refused. They did not pursue in court like I thought they would and some how it just got dropped.
He did not mortgage the house, he could not have because their is not a clear title and this is why I know the new wife (or her tribe) funded the house.
I try really hard not to think about it TT and I don't hear the ferry horn every half hour all day long anymore...
I so wanted to have a get together there, and maybe someday I still will.
My new BF is great. We are having a really good time. Going to Baltimore next month for a week, to the harbor with his mom and her BF.
I'm fine Weaver. Girls are in Spain with their dad and his parents at the moment so I'm home alone. I've got one more week before they come back. My twins are starting high school and are very excited. My eldest has an important year ahead of exams but just got a boyfriend so I hope she doesn't get too distracted!
I'll have to get my map book out and look for Baltimore! I hope you have a wonderful time. Take it nice and slowly - you don't want to rush a good thing. Take care. Alida
Spain, I am so jealous! What fun. We spent two weeks at the beach in Spain when I was a kid (dad in service, traveled a lot), and I was fascinated by the snails which covered everything outside of the inn where we stayed.
Parents wouldn't take me to the bullfight (thankfully), can't remember if they took the older ones or not.
Oh and the white beaches where we hunted for blue and green sea glass.
Where's the beer, man? I'm not coming if there's no beer.
Well, OK, strong ice tea will do in a pinch.
Regarding tomatoes, my brother and I used to throw the ones from my mother’s garden at cars driving by. And then run like h***. A drive-by pureeing. Never did get caught. It used them up quite nicely.
Thomas Jefferson is generally given credit for introducing the tomato to the American diet. Until he started foisting them on everyone who wandered by Monticello they were thought to be poisonous.
Then he started in with zucchini...
So, is tomato a fruit or a vegetable? I vote fruit.
Oh, and regarding this:
“I'd just gone into a beautiful, dark, and truly silent cathedral and prayed to Whatever Higher Power Might Listen and asked what do I do about my steenking wife?”
You remind me - I did the same thing in Brussels after D-Day 1 of the LTA. I found an old church while wandering aimlessly on the edge of the central part of the old city and started stopping in almost every day. It’s pretty hard being in a foreign city when something like this happens. No one to talk to. Nowhere to go. Nothing familiar. And the whole being in a foreign country experience down the tube. Sucks big time. And I still had to go through it all again five years later. At least you beat those odds.
Weaver,
You may want to talk to an atty sooner than later. There are statutes of limitations on things like this. Don’t let it become the status quo.
And have fun in Baltimore. I think there is fun somewhere in Baltimore. I’ve never seen it, but there must be.
I want to go to Spain some day. I speak a little Espanol. I could survive.
Weaver, I live less than an hour from Baltimore. When will you be around? I'd really love to meet you!
Gray, I'm going to be in Wisconsin this weekend. P told me about your party and I cannot, dang it, make it. I wish I could. But I'll be all the way over in Manitowoc and it's just too long a drive to come over.
Where's soulloss when you need her? She'd have a zillion and a half ideas for you to to make at your party.
Me? I like fried green tomatoes. But that's also fussy and time-consuming.
I had ravioli with fresh tomatoes, sage, basil, and thyme last night. All but the ravioli were fresh from the back deck planters. Yummy.
We'll be in Baltimore the 14th through the 18th, and as soon as I have more of an itinary I will definitely email you. I would love to meet you as well.
His mom is 72 and her boyfriend is in his 80's so mostly we are going along to help them get to NYC to see Miss Liberty, as well as DC for the day. (Hopefully in DC we can get together for coffee or is Baltimore better for you?).
It's going to be a tight itinerary because they have much they want to see.
Ap,
My real estate GF and I are going to the courthouse Thurs to do some title research, and based on what we find I will call a real estate atty. I did go see an atty (2 in fact) right after it happened last year but that was about a lawsuit and the atty said it would go to trial, be very ugly with lots of dispositions from friends and family and very costly, so I dropped that idea. I was not emotionally strong enough at that time to go through with it anyway and one atty who is a friend refused to even handle the case for that reason.
This is about the title though, and I have decided to pursue it.
Hope your ends are tightened up today Appy and you are not out of sorts still.
I wonder if it is the weather or time of year, because I have been feeling that way too lately. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I have more ripe tomatoes outside. I'll pick them today. Probably just have them in salad since I'll be gone this weekend and there aren't enough to make sauce with. Two vines in a planter will make a couple meals' worth and make me happy, but that's about it.
In the spirit of good food, though, here's my new favorite soup recipe. I made it up myself. I apologize in advance for those who don't have access to a Trader Joe's.
Fire-Roasted Corn and Vegetable Soup
1 T olive oil 1 small eggplant, chopped 2 small yellow squash, chopped 1 cup chopped sweet potato 1 cup Trader Joe's fire-roasted sweet corn 1 box Trader Joe's corn and roasted pepper soup (it's liquid soup in a box, the way you see broth sometimes these days) Salt and pepper to taste
Yogurt or shredded cheese for garnish Trader Joe's Soytzels (soy pretzels)
In a 2 quart saucepan, sautee the chopped vegetables in the olive oil. Sautee on a relatively high heat so that they brown a bit without getting too mushy. Add the soup and bring to an almost-boil. (The soup has roasted chipotle peppers in it, which adds a nice kick.) Simmer for ten minutes. Add the corn and heat through. Add salt and fresh-ground pepper to taste. (I didn't add much salt.)
Serve with a dollop of yogurt or a sprinkling of shredded cheddar cheese and the soy pretzels. With a big salad, it makes a great, and quick, summertime dinner.
It's because their business model is to purchase store space in slightly run-down, slightly inadequate, smaller-than-most-grocery-store spaces. And that includes parking spaces.
Why do I know that? I like 'em so much that I looked them up to see whether I could invest in them. The answer was no -- they're owned by Aldi Nord, which is a family-owned grocery giant in Germany. (Aldi Sud, a separate company owned by another brother of the Aldi family, owns the Aldi grocery stores in the US.)
I think I understand what you mean. I do love her and I don't think I could love a monster. The problem is a forest for the trees kind of thing. I no longer trust my instincts in such things. It would be like imbedding a victim’s family in the jury. My perception is clouded. I need a clear view of everything at once and there is no way I know of to get one by myself. I hoped there may be something enlightening here, I guess.
Ap, I just found this...thank you for explaining.
You have no idea how much I understand what you have said, living with the man I lived with for five years where his lies were so big and so convincing, I questioned my perception of everything...my perception of myself, my perception of him...everything.
I seriously thought I was going insane.
I will never again live with someone who is capable of lying, love or no love because I love my sanity more.
I hope someday (if it is your desire to continue with your wife as it seems to be) that you have clarity and once again see through the eyes of the innocent.
Last weekend one of my neighbors had a party. I don't know him, but he and Jayne have chatted. Jayne left town that night. Giraffe and I went out, then came back and stopped at the party.
The neighbor is married, but his wife works and lives somewhere in Europe. No idea. I've never met her. I only just met him. The other day I invited him to my party. There, I spotted him hitting on my friend's GF. She said to my friend, "Aren't you going to do anything about this?"
Last night the dude was partying again. He met Jayne outside, asked if I had any leftovers (my food went over huge). So they came in and I gave them something to eat. They went back to the neighbor's house, Jayne came home to go to bed (school night), Giraffe stayed behind. The soused neighbor admitted (bragged?) to Giraffe that he'd cheated on his wife several times, then tried putting the moves on her.
No doubt getting confronted and then getting the deep freeze from us will have no effect on the neighbor.
You've always got these creatures sniffing around the perimeter of your life. Go ahead and make it shine, but don't forget, the light will attract them.
You've always got these creatures sniffing around the perimeter of your life. Go ahead and make it shine, but don't forget, the light will attract them.
Wow, I really like the way you said that...your poetic side is showing again Gray. Yay!!!!
I don't know if they sell bug zappers, but fly paper is about the grossest contraption ever invented in my opinion and I think I read where it causes some type of toxic based disease in a child who slept by one filled with dead flys.
Oh that reminds me of a funny story about my renters in the bungalow I have out back.
They called one day to say that a rat had fallen from the ceiling onto the man renter. Now how they got rats is beyond me, because I certainly don't have them.
Anyway my ex went back there with a box of rat poisen to take care of the problem, which sent the man renter into a frenzy worrying that we were going to kill the rats with the poisen.
The renter says to my ex, "where are you from anyway?, I am from Northern Canada and rats don't bother us all that much"
My ex replied "well, I sure as ****** am not from Transelvania, and I don't like rats".
My renters ended up getting themselves a really good mouser. LOL
Now I'm thinking my ex was the biggest rat of all.
I think I understand what you mean. I do love her and I don't think I could love a monster. The problem is a forest for the trees kind of thing. I no longer trust my instincts in such things. It would be like imbedding a victim’s family in the jury. My perception is clouded. I need a clear view of everything at once and there is no way I know of to get one by myself. I hoped there may be something enlightening here, I guess.
You have no idea how much I understand what you have said, living with the man I lived with for five years where his lies were so big and so convincing, I questioned my perception of everything...my perception of myself, my perception of him...everything.
I seriously thought I was going insane.
I will never again live with someone who is capable of lying, love or no love because I love my sanity more.
I hope someday (if it is your desire to continue with your wife as it seems to be) that you have clarity and once again see through the eyes of the innocent.
Ok, will y'all quit reading my journal?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Appy and Weaver, I feel the same way. Even when I KNEW he was lying he would twist my mind to the point that I would have believed I was wrong for believing the sky was blue!
Yes. Bug zappers are still available, and I highly recommend one for this case. I cite the following story, which I found on some website.
Quote
And now, a word from my Mentor, Dan (It's no wonder I can't talk) Posted April 4, 2006, 3:23 PM CT Last weekend I saw something at Larry's Pistol & Pawn Shop that sparked my interest. The occasion was our 31st anniversary and I was looking for a little something extra for my wife Kathy. What I came across was a 100,000-volt, pocket/purse-sized taser (stun gun). The effects of the taser were suppose to be short lived, with no longterm adverse affect on your assailant, allowing her adequate time to retreat to safety....WAY TOO COOL!
Long story short, I bought the device and brought it home. I loaded two triple-a batteries in the darn thing and pushed the button. Nothing! I was disappointed. I learned, however, that if I pushed the button AND pressed it against a metal surface at the same time; I'd get the blue arch of electricity darting back and forth between the prongs. Awesome!!! Unfortunately, I have yet to explain to Kathy what that burn spot is on the face of our microwave.
Okay, so I was home alone with this new toy, thinking to myself that it couldn't be all that bad with only two triple-a batteries,... right? There I sat in my recliner, my dog Asia looking on intently (trusting little soul) while I was reading the directions and thinking that I really needed to try this thing out on a flesh & blood moving target. I must admit I thought about zapping Asia (for a fraction of a second) and thought better of it. She is such a old dog. But, if I was going to give this thing to my wife to protect herself against a mugger, I did want some assurance that it would work as advertised. Am I wrong?
So, there I sat in a pair of shorts and a wife-beater shirt with my reading glasses perched delicately on the bridge of my nose, directions in one hand, taser in another. The directions said that a one-second burst would shock and disorient your assailant; a two-second burst was supposed to cause muscle spasms and a major loss of bodily control; a three-second burst would purportedly make your assailant flop on the ground like a fish out of water. Any burst longer than three seconds would be wasting the batteries.
All the while I'm looking at this little device measuring about 5" long, less than 3/4 inch in circumference; pretty cute really and loaded with two itsy, bitsy triple-a batteries) thinking to myself, "no possible way!"
What happened next is almost beyond description, but I'll do my best.....I'm sitting there alone, Asia looking on with her head cocked to one side as to say, "don't do it master," reasoning that a one-second burst from such a tiny little ole thing couldn't hurt all that bad.... I decided to give myself a one-second burst just for the heck of it. I touched the prongs to my naked thigh, pushed the button, and HOLY MOTHER, WEAPONS OF MASS [email]DESTRUCTION@!behind!%!@*!!![/email] I'm pretty sure Jessie Ventura ran in through the side door, picked me up in the recliner, then body slammed us both on the carpet, over and over and over again. I vaguely recall waking up on my side in the fetal position, with tears in my eyes, body soaking wet, both nipples on fire, testicles nowhere to be found, with my left arm tucked under my body in the oddest position, and tingling in my legs. The dog was standing over me making whining sounds I had never heard before, licking my face, undoubtedly thinking to herself, "do it again, do it again!"
Note: If you ever feel compelled to "mug" yourself with a taser, one note of caution: there is no such thing as a one-second burst when you zap yourself. You will not let go of that thing until it is dislodged from your hand by a violent thrashing about on the floor. A three second burst would be considered conservative.
SON-OF-A-.... that hurt like heck!!! A minute or so later (I can't be sure, as time was a relative thing at that point), I collected my wits (what little I had left), sat up and surveyed the landscape. My bent reading glasses were on the blades of the ceiling fan. How did they up get there??? My triceps, right thigh and both nipples were still twitching. My face felt like it had been shot up with Novocain, and my bottom lip weighed 88 lbs. I'm still looking for my testicles? I'm offering a significant reward for their safe return.
Still in shock, Daniel
one of my old friends wrote wrote back when I sent this to him, that he totally could see ME as the author of this story. (no - I have not tried mine on myself...)
Oh geez louise. Tonight my roommate and I polished off the last of my keg leftovers from the party. It amounted to almost nothing.
Afterward, I thought I'd be funny and send my bandmates an email where I faked like I was stupidly drunk and proud of finishing off the beer. Full of curses and spelling mistakes and self-conscious pretend-drunk ramblings. It was a masterpiece.
I sorta went "into character" to write it. This sloppy attitude affected who I put on the "To:" list, and I accidentally sent the message to, of all people, my ex's sister, who has the same first name as one of my pals. I never bothered deleting her from my address book.
Even when I KNEW he was lying he would twist my mind to the point that I would have believed I was wrong for believing the sky was blue!
Yep, and I still spend a lot of time wondering why I allowed this affront to my sanity. In what way did it serve me? I think for me I know why but I am constantly on the guard now even though he will never be back in my life. I can't imagine going through my own recovery with the same person that willingly, knowingly threatened my sanity for his own gain and selfish purposes...so I have the utmost respect for those of you who do recover yourselves as well as your marriages simulaneously.
Seems like quite a feat to me, and I can only imagine how hard it is to be able to trust your own perception in the same although different (spouse has an enlightenment) situation.
I'm still cringing over that email. Oh yeah, she's deleted now! Hopefully she deletes the message and that's the end of it.
Poor Giraffe is distraught about the neighbor's advances. She said she used to think she had good intuition about people. I told her everyone thinks that about themselves but it's probably more important to know how to handle it when you do spot the baddies.
What I think is I didn't know mine was a bad man...heck I was engaged to a man I didn't even know was already married.
I think we need to trust our friends and hope like h*ll they spot what we miss.
As a bartender Gray, I could spot an idiot a mile away and an alcoholic after his first drink from his first drink...
but somehow, I didn't spot the rat, even after five years.
Giraffe has a good man and she needs to hold him close and tell the creeps to buck off.
Evil comes in all different forms, that's all I know...and I don't even believe in the devel or evil for that matter. LOL Some of us are just further along on our journey than others...yes, lets just put it that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
“I think for me I know why but I am constantly on the guard now even though he will never be back in my life. I can't imagine going through my own recovery with the same person that willingly, knowingly threatened my sanity for his own gain and selfish purposes...”
How do we start trusting other people now? Or should we in the first place? Seems right and proper to not trust anyone, any more. Really. But that seems sad too.
We adopted a pound cat that was abused as a kitten. It never approaches anyone. Never sits on anyone’s lap. Never rubs against anyone’s legs. Never wants to be petted. I leave food out for it and it eats. It will sit in a corner where it can see us and it will purr to itself. But it never approaches.
Safe, but … but what?
“so I have the utmost respect for those of you who do recover yourselves as well as your marriages simultaneously.”
Or perhaps some of us are just cowards and we know will never approach anyone else ever again.
I don’t know.
I am safe in detachment, at least.
As far as recovering myself? I don’t think I want that person any more. Very slow learner. Still shopping around for a new me, actually.
Aph, At least you look at yourself. Many of our (my) problems are because we (I) refuse to do so on a regular basis. I'm getting better at it, but still have a journey.
Aph - we adopted a puppy that was likely abandoned in a house. It was in the corner of the kennel at the pound. Would not even come to us. Had given up.
It is now the most loyal dog I have ever seen. Loves like no other.
Our roommate/babysitter has a cat. It seemed possessed for the longest time. None of my family could even go near it. If we wandered too close to it's room, it would start hissing at us through the door. We just let it have it's space, and it eventually warmed up to us. (especially me). I can now pet it - it even comes to me for companionship. (I am not particularly fond of cats...)
It is interesting how time, respect, love.....
can change the other creature.
But now I have have this XW - I leave it alone as much as possible (what with three kids and all...), but do not abuse it. I am not mean to it. Just ignore it the best I can.....
FAR, I did the same thing with my ex. Took me two years to get to the point of being able to do more than ignore her. Things have been getting steadily calmer between us, which is very good for DD and not so bad for us, either.
But... A couple of weeks ago I saw that smile. You know the one -- you probably saw your ex, back when you were first in love, smile that same smile at you.
It shocked the living daylights out of me. All I'd said was that I hoped she had a good vacation. I didn't expect that reaction. It bothered me for days.
I don't want to re-tame that particular pet. She lives in someone else house now and someone else feeds and pets her. The very last thing I want in my life is her. I remember loving her and it's a fond memory. There is some part of a marriage that never dies and I accept that. But that is all that I want.
I don't know where to go with this -- I don't have any good advice for myself or for you. I just know that I understand what you're doing.
What's the word on her going to the conference and RM being there?
How's the house coming along?
Did anything happen with angry SIL?
Son is doing what this year?
D and SIL doing well?
What's happening at work? Rovers still sending data? I should probably know, but I don't.
Things went well at OOSP?
Gray, was thinking about you yesterday. I have my problems, and faults. I'm sure you have some too, but you are a pretty fine person. You have my respect.
Not sure if you still have lots of questions without answers. Hope you get them all answered before you leave.
Your struggles these last few years helped you to share your feelings. We felt for you, though we couldn't do much. You are much more quiet now. Probably a sign you are coming to terms with everything.
Thanks for letting us get to know you. It's been a treat.
There's sort of a goofy one on CV's thread 2 WOE on In Recovery that I put up yes2rday. Hope it doesn't sound negative, because I don't feel at all negative these days (even though my SIL may be suing us 2 keep us from selling the house she's renting).
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What's the word on her going to the conference and RM being there?
I don't think he was there. She only stayed 2 nights and one day (the day she spoke). She seemed really glad 2 be home, and with me. But we haven't talked about whether he might have been there or not. Don't feel like I need 2, really.
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How's the house coming along?
I got another of the big jobs done last weekend. Making a boxed beam over one of the double doors downstairs 2 stiffen the support for the 2 floors above. 4 20-ton bottle jacks and a bunch of 2x4's did a fabulous job of preloading the wall, then a whole herd of screws in the plywood on both sides (2 be covered by drywall), really 2k a lot of shake out of the floor above and now our bedroom door closes nicely!
Next huge job will be putting a post and beam struc2re in the dining room ceiling and shoring up the stairwell wall from the ground. Then, all we need 2 do is drywall the living room, dining room, and downstairs hall, and we'll have all our "living space" back.
Wallpaper and carpet can wait a while.
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Did anything happen with angry SIL?
Oh yeah, like I alluded above. She ain't got a leg 2 stand on, but she could tie us up for months if we have 2 evict her. I just spent about a half hour on the phone with our lawyer (kaCHING) discussing our next move...
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Son is doing what this year?
less than he should be, but that's okay for now. Going 2 college, at least. Learning more about blacksmithing, which is cool. Has a great teacher. I need 2 make time 2 take him out 2 practice driving his truck so he can get lisenced. We haven't started on the other Model A yet, either, but he's still interested in helping finish the restoration.
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D and SIL doing well?
Yep. Waiting on the resolution of the other house though, so we can help them buy their first new place.
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What's happening at work? Rovers still sending data? I should probably know, but I don't.
Spirit's got the bumb wheel, and is parked until the sun rises higher in the sky and brings the power back up. Oppy is getting closer 2 Victoria, which oughta be swell!
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Things went well at OOSP?
Yep, but it was cloudy every time I wanted 2 get a scope out, so I haven't done that since May, really.
“Then, all we need 2 do is drywall the living room, dining room, and downstairs hall…”
Are you doing it yourself?
We're doing the demo and detailing ourselves and hiring a local guy 2 do the drywall. He's not good at the corners or under the windows, though. Our walls have beveled corners with double-beaded wood moldings on them. He tends 2 get sloppy there, so I go and neaten it up before we paint.
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Ugh, I hate dry-walling. Almost as much as I hate stone-walling WS.
my W hates the dust EVERYWHERE more than anything. I concur.
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I didn’t realize your house was so damaged. Did you have to move out at any point?
We were unable 2 live in it for the first year. I lost track of how many times we moved around 2 rental houses and our guest house. Something like 8 times in a year and a half. Then several more times within the house as we gradually got rooms liveable again. My W and I ac2ally moved in2 the intact downstairs bedroom a little over 2 years after the fire, but we had no heat for about 3 more months. We used a plastic utility sink for a kitchen sink and cardboard boxes for counters until we got new cabinets built abouut a year or so ago.
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What happened to the general contractor?
We fired his sorry [censored] about 2 years ago. 2k about 4 months 2 do it, 2. We're still doing some of his crap over, but some of the guys he had were decent.
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Yeech, I hate dealing with general contractors. Almost as much as I hate dealing with WS.
That's why we won't, anymore.
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I bet you guys will feel a lot more comfortable once it is all finished.
Boy, I sure hope so!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Did you have to deal with smoke damage and smells?
Yep. Most of the smoke was upstairs and in the ceilings and walls (water washing wet charcoal down through the building). The rest was water damage 2 ceilings, walls, and floors. And they're big: 12' ceilings on the first floor, 11' on the 2nd floor, and about 8' in the attic. The whole roof and attic space had 2 be completely rebuilt.
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Ugh, back to my own home improvement projects. I don’t hate them, but they are a never ending pain in the ball peen hammer.
Yep. I used 2 think I'd do home restorations again, but not anymore. I'll be dead before I can finish another project like this one!
"Six-Cylinder Love", the first full-length play based on the motor car, opened at the Sam H. Harris Theatre in New York City. The play traces a family's purchase of an expensive car and their resulting woes. A silent film version of the play was produced in 1923, and a talkie starring Spencer Tracy followed in 1931.
It occurs to me, and probably has to you, that your W has put up with a lot of home and hearth disruption the past couple years. It may explain a few things – recovery wise. She’s a real trooper regarding you guy’s house, you know. Maybe she is starting to relax a bit now that it’s getting comfortable again.
Buy her a rose or a new wall hanging or something house-warming when the time is right. From all of us.
SS,
Meh, could be worse.
Don’t really know what to say. Things are tolerable for the greater part. But, knowing who I am M’d to makes me feel like living in 2’s house as it’s under reconstruction would, in a way.
Ending the VLTA was a great first step. Sort of like putting the actual fire out once and for all. There were hot spots and wisps of smoke to hose down for a long time afterwards, but at least the place stopped actively burning.
But rebuilding with a FWW that was in a VLTA is like dealing with a general contractor – nothing gets done on my schedule. Nothing is done to my specifications.
Just ending the A is not enough for me. I don’t want to rebuild this dump like it was. In fact, my taker wants to live in a mansion now.
Err, I’m getting a little carried away with my analogy, I see. Sorry.
Had good news on an unrelated front today, though. My personal Plan A is bearing some fruit.
“You still got lots of pain, or are you giving it away now days? Mostly questions these days, or mostly answers?”
Hey, you calling me a pain? That's Mr. Pain to you!
I think I had fairly accurate answers from very near the beginning, actually. I just didn’t like the answers - not at all. So I push on the soft spots here and there on MB. See how much they give. That’s all.
But rebuilding with a FWW that was in a VLTA is like dealing with a general contractor – nothing gets done on my schedule. Nothing is done to my specifications.
So lots of frustration, and little relationship joy?
Sometimes you sound sad, so I asked. I'll keep praying for you.
"So lots of frustration, and little relationship joy?"
You have no idea what it is like to discover that nothing, absolutely nothing, was as it seemed. Not ever, not even from the beginning. Not from any aspect or in any corner.
There is no way to squint and turn your head upside-down to make it look even remotely like what you thought it was.
Nothing - was as it seems.
Hard to deal, is all.
But not to worry. There is joy in my heart for many other things.
I almost offered 2 "set my W free" when we both reacted 'badly' (e.g., with anger) 2 my SIL's absurd demands that we sell the house she's renting 2 us for over a quarter million less than it appraised for last December. But I didn't.
I did say, recently, that I wanted her happiness even if it's at the expense of her family's. And I mean that.
But this whole experience with the 2nd house and her SIL has ac2ally helped bring us closer. When I put MY foot down (so did she, but her S always reacts, never responds - lives a spiteful, drama-filled life) and we spelled out our "boundaries" 2 our lawyer 2 relay 2 her, my W ac2ally got the first good night's sleep in a long time. That's what she said, 2.
I mean, I can say "Oh you poor thing." Or "I feel bad for you"
But......... Even if I really do feel bad for you, and care...... how can it ever take away what you feel, or make it better?
Sometimes you sound happy, sometimes really sad. Like you have carried a great weight for far too long. (no, I didn't do that on purpose, and I think I'll leave it there.)
I suppose I wanted to tell you that someone noticed, and wished they could help, even if they can't help much. Wish it was different.
On Friday afternoon, I was headed toward the airport to pick up HoFS for the weekend. It's our anniversary weekend, so I'd planned a trip to The Melting Pot (a fondue restaurant) for dinner, and then a night at the Bethesda Marriott Suites. I'd stopped at the hotel to drop off champagne, chocolate, candles, and music and was in plenty of time to make it to the airport on time. I was a little concerned because I hadn't had time to write his card yet and the traffic had looked kind of heavy when I drove under the Beltway. So I turned north on Old Georgetown Road, planning to go over to Wisconsin to get on the Beltway a little further along.
Then, as I was driving along, kaTHUMP-THUMP-THWONG-thumpthumpthumpthump.
Uh oh.
So I pulled over into a church driveway and found my right rear tire slowly deflating and a very odd looking bit of metal in it. When I pulled it out, it turned out to be a broken-off pair of scissors from a pocket knife. So I called emergency roadside assistance and then tried to get the tire changed myself. Unfortunately, the bolts were on much tighter than I could move. So I got in the car and wrote my card for HoFS and then called mom. When we'd been talking for a little while, a car drove past and stopped. The guy got out, so I told mom I'd be right back while I told him emergency assistance was on the way. But he said he could change it in a minute and not to worry about it. So I let him go ahead and do it.
I forgot mom was still on the phone, and she got treated to a very strange series of noises and creaks and groans and banging and my muffled voice. Needless to say, she was quite thoroughly panicked by the time I got back to her. I apologized profusely and then we both went on our way.
When I got to the airport, HoFS was in line at the baggage counter -- his bag and the bags of about ten other people hadn't made it on the plane from Cleveland to Baltimore. Luckily, he'd worn the clothes he planned to wear for our evening. So we went on with our evening, and I suspect both of us wondered what else might go wrong.
Luckily, there weren't any further mishaps. HoFS had never had fondue before and treated it like an engineering problem to be taken apart and learned and put back together very carefully. I finally told him that I couldn't tell whether he was having a good time or not. As near as I can tell, it wasn't an adventure for him. Perhaps I should have made him have a glass of wine instead of iced tea, but I knew there was champagne in the room.
The fondue was quite good. HoFS ordered "The French Quarter," which was sausage, tenderloin, chicken, and shrimp, all dredged in Cajun spices. I ordered the vegetarian entree, which was tofu, vegetables, and fresh gorgonzola and spinach ravioli. We shared it all and it made for a very nice meal indeed. Beforehand we had a strawberry almond saladd and afterward we had chocolate fondue with fruit and various sweets to dip it in.
The rest of the evening was quite lovely. Champagne, kisses, music, long gazes into one another's eyes. After I got out the champagne and while the "Do you love me?" song from Fiddler on the Roof was still playing (either that or it was "Kiss the Girl" from The Little Mermaid...), HoFS said, "I've died. I've died and gone to heaven."
It got better after that. :-)
The next morning we had a leisurely breakfast in the room -- crab omelette, hash browns, strawberries, and a plate of their pastries. The little cherry danish was particularly tasty.
Then we went over to Sears to get my tires looked at. I figured, based on having nearly 70,000 miles on my car, that I was going to need to have all four of them replaced, and sure enough, that's what happened. Yay, another $500 from the emergency fund. Sheeeesh, there've been a lot of big expenses lately!
While we were waiting for the car, we headed into the mall to look for something to drink. We started by heading for coffee for me. As we were standing there, I realized that we were standing in the Bauble Center of the mall. You know the spot I mean -- the place where all the different hallways come together and there's a jewelry store at each corner. So I chuckled and said, "Remember when I went to the Verizon store a few weeks ago and was surrounded by jewelry stores? Look!" And I pointed them out to him. We started walking, I thought to find him the diet Coke he wanted. But no... he steered me into one of the jewelry stores and we [gulp] stood there and looked at diamond solitaires.
When we left, we were both still calm, but perhaps less grounded than we had been.
Then we went into Crate & Barrel, which is a place we both really enjoy. I was looking for everyday wineglasses, since I've broken several of mine in the last couple of years and I only have one left. (I still have all six of the Czech crystal ones, but I like to use those for special occasions. Yes, we used them this weekend!) I didn't find anything I really liked, so we continued on to look for a drink... I thought.
But HoFS steered us into another jewelry store, this one more elaborate (in other words, more and higher-quality and higher-priced). In this one, a nice lady named Ursula decided that we needed to do more than peer into the cases and then run away. So she had me sit down and look at rings, and then got some out and had me try them on. I came to the same conclusion I've come to before. I really liked the 18kt gold band in a Tiffany setting with a 1ct diamond. (A Tiffany setting is, as near as I can tell, a type of setting rather than a particular jewelry company. Envision a simple ring with a six-prong thingy that holds the diamond and you've got it about right.)
Poor HoFS went completely blank and silent somewhere in the middle of all of it. I think it was when I showed him the price tag on that particular ring. He said later it was a great deal more than he'd guessed it would be. Since I'd talked to Penny about it the last time he and I chatted about diamonds, I knew that 1ct rings were going to be between $7,000 and $11,000. This particular one was in that range, so I wasn't surprised. I didn't think he would be either -- I'd forwarded that e-mail to him. Apparently he'd forgotten all about it, though. (In other words, he was so horrified by the whole thing that he blocked it out from his memory.)
Oh, and just to be completely clear, no, HoFS has not proposed. I am reading nothing into the trip to look at pretty baubles other than that we’ve talked about them some and it seemed like a good idea to actually look at some rather than just chatting about it. I do this with all of the conversations that we have that might be about similar things (houses, cutlery, china, whatever). It’s a conversation. Conversation is not the same as action, and I’ve learned to watch actions to gauge reality. And the reality in this situation is that HoFS loves me very much – and though he’s thinking about things, he is not acting yet. So I continue to plan my life with an open-ended option on who will be involved. So far, there’s no great problem there, though I know that there are some pretty big decisions coming along soon.
Afterward, we went back and got my car and its new tires. Then we went up to neighborhoods near where my ex lives and drove around to look at what kinds of houses are for sale there. More crowded than what HoFS is used to, and in some cases icky and rundown. There were some nice ones in there, too, though.
Then we went to Whole Foods Market and wandered around a bit. More high prices and stress for HoFS, a wander through a playground for me. (I don't buy much there. I do like to look at what they have, though.) Then we went home and recovered from the stress and reconnected. And had some downtime. It wasn't quite like a nap, but more like a nap than like walking around doing things. Very quiet.
Dinner was interesting in that I was the sous chef (thanks to Soulloss for teaching me what that actually means) and HoFS did the cooking. He made a really, really tasty meal, too. He used ingredients we had in the house and made chicken burritos. We had it with fresh sliced melon, strawberries, and blueberries, and a glass of red wine on the side. Oh, and the ubiquitous sliced vegetables that accompany every meal we prepare together. And broccoli steamed in chicken broth, and fire-roasted sweet corn from Trader Joe's. And then we finally broke out the chocolate that I'd gotten for the hotel. We were too busy with each other to have any the night before. Choxie (from Target) is interesting stuff. The chocolate tiles were worth playing with, though I don't think I'd get them again. The Ginger Toffee Chocolate was heavenly.
We went to bed early and slept for a second solid eight hours of the weekend. This is how it goes with us. We sleep eight-hour nights when we're together, but we're so active that we don't actually catch up on our sleep. And then as soon as we're apart again, we go back to our sleep-deprived ways.
The next morning we were up by 7:30. We had homemade bread and fruit for breakfast. Then we zipped off to pick up DD and kept going out into the wilds of Montgomery County. I'm not sure that HoFS had previously believed that there were any rural areas around here. And truth be told, there probably wouldn't be if it weren't for the Agricultural Reserve land in the northwest crescent of the county. But it's there, and out there in the middle of it is a nice farm where you can pick your own stuff -- we got apples and peaches. We were going to pick blackberries, too, but DD wilted so we didn't. We did buy a pint of them, though. Lovely things.
Then we went swimming with a couple of friends, came back to the house for lunch and a nap (and nookie) and then took HoFS to the airport.
Today I mostly recovered. Yoga and housework with DD this morning, played with toys and took naps this afternoon, watched videos in the early evening, and now I'm working for pay. And yes, I've been working on this post all day. Time to actually post it. Hi everyone!
Okay, sister. I'll do what you did, since I've not put much on here lately.
There's a girl interested in me, and she came to my party, weekend before last. She's okay, but I'm not interested. At the party, while I cooked, she and her friend came into the kitchen and chatted me up. Looking for the easy out, I just cooked and talked and uttered every coarse bit of wit that came to mind, hoping I'd turn her off and avoid the trouble.
But... I have my limits, and when I told car4love the stuff I'd said, car4love said, "Uh, yeah, you were funny and made her like you more."
So a few days later the girl started in with the emails. Finally, bless her heart, she sent one that just flat out griped about my elusiveness and asked me to go on a date. I whinged silently (mostly) at my desk all day, and finally at quittin' time sent her the "Sorry but I have to say no thanks" reply.
That night, I had tickets to see The Flaming Lips at the MN State Fair. There's a story there too, but I'll skip the tale and just say "God bless The Flaming Lips".
Short on sleep after the show, I worked half the day Friday, then ran home, threw some things in the car, and headed out to the site where the race was being held.
The race started at 5 P.M. Friday. Four people on a team. When your turn comes up, you get on your mtn bike and do a seven-mile loop on a very tough course. If you aren't climbing, you're usually dealing with a nasty downhill. You finish a lap and tag off with your teammate who's waiting for you at the start. While your teammates do their laps, you eat, drink, and try to sleep a little before it's time to get up and go again.
This goes on for 24 hours. The nighttime laps are tough. You run out of clean clothes, and the dew falls. You put on wet, cold gear and ride trails that are now soft and get more mushy with every set of tires. And it is daaaaark. After finishing, you choke down some food. With your muddy legs, you crawl into your tent, and even your pillow is cold and damp.
But hey, you have a pillow.
It's chilly and noisy. Some racers are just there to party. Jealous, you close your eyes and see rocks and roots. Soon more than an hour has gone by and you're still awake. The teammate who followed you comes back to camp, throws up, and disappears into her tent. You barely doze for the next two hours, and then you're rousted. Time to go. You discover that you blew a leak in your front tube on the last lap, and if your teammate who's currently on the trail is keeping with his usual pace, you have about five minutes to fix it and get to the start.
You figure the teammate who just threw up won't be much use for a while, and you steal her front wheel. You get to the start. Ten seconds pass, maybe, and your teammate crosses the line and tags you. Before a single cobweb has cleared out of your head, you're fighting your way up a wet, sandy, rocky slope in the dark, cursing out loud every time your back wheel spins out. A toad hops out onto the trail in front of you, and hops furiously ahead, hemmed in by your headlight, which wobbles back and forth as you battle up the hill. You're going so slowly that a toad can stay ahead of you. Someone follows not far behind, puffing. Possessed by some insane instinct for comedy, you half shout, "It's the deep burrrrrrrrn!" The other guy says, in mock-anger, "Shut the eff up!" He's barely making it, and can't afford to laugh.
It might sound horrible, but somewhere in there, after your legs have mostly given out, and you dread every lap, and you've given up hosing the mud off your body at the end of each leg, and everybody stinks, and all you care about is getting done, getting home, and getting to bed, you start to have fun. The physical suffering stops mattering. You just accept it and start having a good time in spite of how much you hurt.
On one of your last laps, you even have a conversation with a woman who's on the trail just ahead of you. Two filthy, exhausted people, out of breath, with beat up legs, fighting their way uphill, somehow manage to flirt.
It's a beautiful thing.
Impossibly, you make your fastest time on your last lap.
They hold a big raffle at the end of the race. Every winner has to walk down a hill and climb a set of about 15 steps to collect his or her prize, and everyone shouts "Run!" while the winners waddle down the hill, some of them stuck bent halfway over, and fight their way up the steps to get their prizes, little cycling gadgets and t-shirts and stuff. The last few riders arrive at the finish, and people hand them beers as they cross the line. Everybody's in pain except the volunteers, a handful of bemused girlfriends, and the dogs.
It's no lie, I spent most of the hours from Sat. evening to Monday morning asleep.
Ain't it lucky when you get to have that kind of fun? If only there were nothing to haunt you when you finally got to sleep. But life ain't perfect.
Gray, did you really participate in that race? You were one of the racer's?
I had to read your post twice, first thinking it was a wierd dream you had...
What are you NUTS? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
J,
My mom had the ring you describe with a 1 c diamond...and it is a beautiful ring. When she was in a coma the medical people all commented on how beautiful her ring was, and her hands...she always had the most well manicured hands.
My BF is a lot like yours in the way he wants to stop in the jewelry stores and look, or talk big talk about the future...and I do what you do just play along and then let it go. It was really freaking me out at first, but now I realize it's just his way of thinking and working through stuff he's imagining for the future.
He finally admitted to me he was scared and wanted to slow way down...scared himself with all that talk.
Guys are a little different, yanno?
Ap,
I think the way you are trying to work things out in your mind, regarding the lie's you had been living under for so long, is a very good thing. It is the road to peace. A long, hard road but you have the courage to head down it (courage or "no choice"... I don't know but I think it is probably courage) and it will get resolved in your mind at some point...and that is what matters.
It's important to not allow yourself to get stuck in victim/blame mentality, because then you will never be able to find peace with it. Even though you were blameless and are a victim, finding a way to use it to serve you is the only way to overcome it's destruction to you.
It's important to find a way to turn it around so that you end up in an empowered state of being...
I worried about anger and resentment setting in, so I found a way to quickly turn myself around.
For me it took burying myself in "A Course in Miracles"...the miracle was really a change in perception, a change in the way I viewed things.
I can't put it into words but the change was profound enough that it completely changed my way of thinking about everything...and that was empowering.
There are moments when the old thought system sinks in, but I find a way to quickly banish it again.
You will find your way to mental and emotional peace, Ap.
Well it would be pretty boring if we weren't!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
HoFS
No doubt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I did it again JJ, got him to post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
The trouble with visiting jewelry stores Hofs, is the beauty of all those little baubbles keeps haunting you, long after you have left the store. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You're good at that, Weaver. Keep it up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I think the trouble with going to look at things like that is that it raises expectations. And if they then need to be lower again (the expectations, that is), it can be pretty hard on the people and the relationship.
Gray, I like that update. Thank you. And yes, keep toiling up those hills. I understand time like that, though I don't do anything like that anymore.
Ap, it sounds to me like you're having an odd epiphany/transformation sort of thing. Feels weird when you're going through something like that, sort of like the skin you've worn all your life all of a sudden doesn't fit. Keep with it, though. It will eventually.
I think the trouble with going to look at things like that is that it raises expectations. And if they then need to be lower again (the expectations, that is), it can be pretty hard on the people and the relationship.
Try not to have any expectations, and unless you have some sort of time limit due to age related issues (biological clock) this is all part of the journey. Love is about discovery and about freeing the other person to be able to feel themselves and us out.
GB and I talked about the expectations once he started talking of marriage and rings, and I of moving and changing careers.
I felt him distance at a certain point soon after, and I know that guys get scared and as someone put it they are like rubber bands when they pull back, we need let go a bit and let them.
Each time they come back, as in a rubber band, they are less scared, until finally they have come to terms with things and are around for good.
I also felt my distrust go up the more he talked about the future (too many words before actions) and realized I was operating from an unhealed place. He questioned my ability to trust, I questioned his ability to follow through.
We both decided we were putting too much expectation on the outcome and forgot to be as children and just enjoy the moment, complete with the role playing and "acting" out of the future. Kind of like feeling each other out as to how that future might look, if we were with the other.
Enjoy the ride, the journey...all things in good time.
And of course a guy needs to know what you like JJ? ...just in case. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I finished my last nighttime lap somewhere around 4 A.M. When I hit the final descent to the finish--a series of easy downhill switchbacks--I heard "Rock the Casbah" coming from the speakers at the finish line, loud. I got so amped I almost waved off the next rider and did a double. But sadly, I didn't. Next year.
Time limits. No specific time limits, no, though HoFS has said that he feels as though there is one based on my reactions.
I jump to things. I start off over there at the starting post and then zip I'm over here at the finish line. I research things in entirely too much detail the first time they're mentioned. I let my fingers and Google give me instant access to all the information I want to know. I plan. I think. I research. And then I start doing. All in a very short period of time.
HoFS walks. He starts off at the starting point and, like the turtle, he walks to the finish line one step at a time. No leaping around from place to place, no jumping up and down, no running in circles whilst chasing butterflies. (Well, okay, he occasionally chases ME in circles, but that's different.)
I've told y'all the story before of how I met HoFS and how I think about him. I jumped. I'm here. Right here. Been here a long time. Not going anywhere else. I'm hoping HoFS'll wander over this way. It makes him nervous, of course. But I am, nonetheless, here.
There are big decision points coming up on the horizon, though. DD's school situation may work best if I sell my house and move closer to where my ex lives. (Because at that point I'll be driving up there half the time anyway; no commuting savings for me then.) I had come to that conclusion, oh, I guess it's been three months now, and I mentioned it to HoFS in a very matter-of-fact way. If I need to move, I'll do this, then I'll do that, then I'll do this other...
He was shocked that I didn't include him in the decision process, I think. It took me a couple of days to understand how upset he was. And the thing is, if there is no commitment between us, then I need to make such decisions solo. If there is a formal commitment between us, then we need to make such decisions jointly. We are in an in-between state right now. Linked, connected, and have agreed to stay that way. But that's not the same as married by a long shot. Nor even is it similar to being engaged.
The other major decision I need to make is about kids and whether I'm going to have more of them. There, too, is a decision that I make solo if I'm on my own, jointly if I'm with someone. And we're in-between.
These decisions do have time constraints; I need to make them in the next couple of years. DD starts kindergarten in two years, and I'm almost 39 years old.
There are other goals and visions I have for my life that will continue to unfold and grow in the next couple of years. Moving up to where my ex lives will mean a considerably longer commute, but if I buy for just me and DD, I will buy something that I can afford without taking on a new mortgage. That'll change my lifestyle a lot and will also allow me to work toward other financial goals that I gave myself about a year ago. (First, get out of debt. Second, fund my retirement and DD's education. Third, build enough wealth to never have to work again.)
Right now I'm working to make sure that my solo decisions now leave open the options that include HoFS. There are also areas where we may continue to make separate decisions after making a more joint arrangement overall. For example, I recently came to the conclusion that I would not want to combine my finances with HoFS. He believes that it's a decision based in fear. I'm not sure that's entirely correct, but there is certainly caution there.
So yes, Weaver, being as children in the moment is excellent and something I strive for. I also recognize, however, that sometime in the last couple of years I regained a direction and vision for my life. I am working on bringing that vision to fruition. As much as possible, I'm making sure that there is room for HoFS in each decision that I make. But when I get to the point of buying a home, well, it makes a difference. DD and I need a small 3 bedroom townhouse, no more. DD, me, HoFS, and his three boys, even if some of them are only there part-time, would need a fair bit more space. It's that kind of thing.
I think I'm repeating myself. Time to stop and smell the roses. (Two dozen. Red. Smell lovely. Wish they were here in the office with me instead of at home on the table. Then again, they're flowers for the table. A symbol of all that two people can build together.)
Hi J, I don't think I could do what you and HoFS are doing.
And Gray, I know for sure I couldn't do what you did.
My mom send me an e-card today. It's a camping card. It shows a person at a campfire with spooky things going on all around, and it encourages me to enjoy the campout.
Did you happen to catch Rock Star last night? One guy about blew me away with his version of Coldplay's "Clocks"...did you see him knock over the piano bench and jump on top of the piano?
The girl who works for me always wants to talk about that show, so I have been trying to remember to watch it...glad I did last night.
What do you have going for your birthday Gray? Do they bring you a cake at work?
[color:"red"] H [/color] [color:"green"] A [/color] [color:"blue"] P [/color] [color:"orange"] P[/color] [color:"yellow"] Y [/color]
[color:"purple"] B [/color] [color:"pink"] I [/color] [color:"brown"] R [/color] [color:"#666666"] T [/color] [color:"red"] H [/color] [color:"green"] D [/color] [color:"blue"] A[/color] [color:"orange"] Y [/color]
[color:"purple"] G [/color] [color:"#666666"] C [/color]
Hope your day is wonderful and eat loads of cake <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
BTW, I am thoroughly impressed with your bike riding story. Very cool how you challenged yourself like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I only saw that "Rock Star" show once, and didn't really pay attention. "Clocks" is a killer tune, though I've been off the Coldplay for a while. I need to watch more television. Now when's the last time you heard that?
My coworkers have forgotten it's my birthday. I'm wearing all black, and some stuff I've never worn to work, and nobody's noticed.
Should I give them a hint?
After work I'm gonna play music with a couple buddies and maybe go for a beer or two afterwards.
I hung out with a friend last night and he asked me for advice regarding a sticky, tricky subject having to do with a girl he's dating. Here's hoping I steered him right.
Crazy life we live. Here I am - six months divorced - and I am feeling attracted to a new girl working in the office. I am no where near ready to start something like that. But she sure is cool.... so far.
Guess I'll bury my feelings for a while, and see who she turns out to be.
I like the idea of courting. There is a good book about it - being a good father to a daughter. It endorses courting for young people. I can't remember the author right now.... I can see how it would work well for us older folks, too. (are you older than I, GC? -lessee - if you wore black - then you are half a year older than I...)
Working in an office with someone is like courting. Going to a common Bible study, or even sitting at lunch every day has elements of it. (we have a cafeteria - what with being a school and all....) It is a low pressure way to learn enough about someone to determine if you want to continue to spend time with them. (courting - is group dating. no pairs - just girls and guys going to movies - or cow tipping - or whatever...)
Man. What a crazy life.
Somebody throw a bucket of ice water on me. Take me out back and beat me up some.
That sounds like a very big deal even though I have no idea where that is. Very very best of luck. You won't pass out - after all you've dealt with, this will be like a walk in the park! Have fun. TT
For those who were old enough to go to movies in the 80s, First Avenue was featured in Purple Rain.
Good for you, Gray!!!
FAR, Gray is younger than I am, though I no longer remember how much. I'll be 39 next month. Hmmm. I think I'm looking forward to being 40. 39 is just a goofy number.
I never compare you to Bob Dylan, or Neil Diamond.
Saw Neil Young on TV the other night, and he actually looks halfway decent now that he is old. Funny as h*ll too. But still I won't compare you to him either, because quite frankly you are not nearly wierd enough.
Just have to jump in in Donny's defence. What an icon. I adore the guy. He had a childhood very similar to Michael Jackson YET look at him. Handsome, intact face, faithful (as far as I know nobody has ever dug up any dirt on him) and still entertaining hungry housewives everywhere.
Here's a poem I wrote when I was 9 (I have many more if you'd like me to post):
If I was rich and had lots of money I'd buy a club and hire Donny For just one night I'd be a queen He'd sing for me, oh what a dream.
Here's a poem I wrote when I was 9 (I have many more if you'd like me to post):
If I was rich and had lots of money I'd buy a club and hire Donny For just one night I'd be a queen He'd sing for me, oh what a dream.
(All rights reserved)
I'd like you to post them TT!
My mom took a friend and me to see Donny Osmond when I was in 7th grade, Salt Lake City. She made me a purple hotpants outfit because it was Donny's favorite color.
We used to pretend with a couple of other little girls in the neighborhood that we were the Osmonds, and we would put on little concerts for who ever we could force to sit down and watch us.
I always had to be Jay, and never got to be Donny.
Yes I know. And just wait till HoFS reads it and gets all googly eyed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Anyway. Appy said:
Quote
ed: BTW, my age is a prime number. Next year it will be sandwiched between two primes. And two years after that, between two more. Guess?
Hum. Ok. This is the way I read what you said:
Your age is X. It's a prime number. When it's sandwiched between primes next year, those are X and X+2. Both prime. And then in another two years, X+2 and X+4 will be primes.
The oldest documented human ever lived to the age of 122. Just to be safe, I pulled a few more primes than that. Here's the list.
Yes I know. And just wait till HoFS reads it and gets all googly eyed.
You love doing that to me, don't you dear? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Didn't you also mention something about whisker burn?
Thanks for the clarification Aphelion. Now I understand it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And I think Gray's got the answers covered.
Yes, dear, I did say something about whisker burn the other morning. It happens to the best of us!
Cool, gc. JL should be there as well. We have the need 2 "hook up" over barley sodas, road cokes, amber nectars. I see it in the cards (though I shouldn't probably express it that way, as RM said that a number of times in emails 2 my W!).
I sent one in that's all about testing hypotheses. Big ones. Big science.
Literally, I could either have a "bright fu2re" with this idea NEXT WEEK, or a complete paradigm shift (20 cents).
So, the abby went in before I knew the extent of the feasibility of my ideas.
This is FUN. This is how science was meant 2 be!!!
Assuming I am somewhere between 1 and say, 141, and given that my current age is a product of two primes and ignoring identity factors, which would not sieve anything, leaves:
“A + 3 = sandwiched between two primes” is the same as A + 4 = prime. Intersection with both A’ and P leaves:
A’’ = {9, 15, 35, 57, 69}
So, since I asked if anyone had a guess, and since everyone already knows I am an old fart, it must be near the end of the list.
I had this in my head when I typed it out so quickly (and erroneously). But I just punched it out in about 57 sec using Mathematica and I think it’s correct.
OK. I think it makes a good campfire topic anyway.
Aphelion, you're one of the coolest old farts ever. Right up there with JL and 2Long. I wonder where the heck all the cool young farts are. Perhaps they're still maturing in the small intestines somewhere. (Except Graycloud, who was, errr, ripe before his time? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )
Penny and I were talking about chaos last night, SS. There's a difference, we thought, between the normal stresses of living and true chaos. The chaos of an affair, abuse, or an addiction is so very different from the stresses of the normal things of life -- job stuff, kid stuff, oh-goodness-I-have-a-flat stuff. All that other stuff can certainly pile up. And when someone gets sick or there's a death in the family, the stress can start to look a lot like chaos.
Still, it's not quite the same. With those first things, there is a constant and pervasive destabilization of life that is unending and cyclically worsens -- to the point where sanity seems crazy and only the insane survive.
I dunno exactly why I'm making the distinction here, except to think that this board is, in most cases, about that kind of chaos. That's why it's so hard to work with people who are on any side of the affair triangle -- it's not like the rest of life, not any more than being in outer space is like walking around down here on Earth. The regular rules don't apply.
So we only sometimes can catch someone in a momentarily "sane" phase (remember I'm talking about all three sides of the affair triangle) and get them reoriented to being on solid ground again.
If the folks here around the campfire are walking around on solid ground instead of floating in outer space, I say keep on walking!
I first came to MB right in the middle of the chaos. The storm driven disorder and confusion was so intense I thought I was going to die. I wanted to die, as soon as possible! (A friend of mine died unexpectedly from septic shock a month after D-Day 2. He left a loving wife and three young children. I remember prayingto God to let me change places with him.)
I finished SAA, given to me by a friend at work, and as I put it down I noticed the web site on the back cover.
I lurked for a long time (months) before my first post. But from my first visit this place was like being inside a building while the storm raged on. Like running in the house, or at least onto the porch, shielded from all the violence directed at DS and me. For a short while each day, anyway, it could not get at us.
Whenever I read or posted here during those worst of months I felt a little calmer, a littler more protected. I could still see and hear the chaos all around me. But for a few minutes at a time it couldn’t blow me around.
There were real people in this shelter who understood!
It isn’t just the campfire thread, either. This entire place is a refuge for when it’s too dangerous to move around outside on your own. The campfire is like, well, it’s like the warm kitchen in the center of the house.
Too bad we can’t stay inside for ever. Eventually, even the worst hurricane starts to wind down and blow past. We have to go outside and start to clean up the mess sooner or later.
If the folks here around the campfire are walking around on solid ground instead of floating in outer space, I say keep on walking!
We have pretty good reports from most now. I wonder about SLH, but she would probably be back if anyting serious was going on. Even if life is not wonderful for everyone, it's more stable.
J, You would say that love with uncertainty is better than no love, and uncertainty?
You would say that love with uncertainty is better than no love, and uncertainty?
Took me a few reads to understand this SS. And yes life is uncertain whether you have love in it or not, so yes, yes, yes love, even uncertain love, makes the uncertainty of life better. In my opinion. Of course if I were to really give my opinion it would be that there is not such thing as uncertain love. Love is an energy, also an entity, which lives within us. Can't be lost, can only be given and it is in that giving that expands it and brings it back around. Nothing uncertain about that.
Just got back from Baltimore...had a good and tiring time with the 2 WWII vets and GB's mom. They are in their 80's and were both in the same division, both wounded pretty badly, yet survived. 14,000 in their division when they were sent to Italy and Africa, only 1000 came back, and now they are the only two left in that division.
We took them to the Washington Memorial in D.C., to Fort McHenry and they took us to some of the best restaurants in Baltimore.
The hotel we stayed at had many, many soldiers on their way home from Iraq staying there, and so many of the girls and guys wanted to visit with these two old guys we had with us. Most of the evening visits down in the atrium/bar of the hotel got pretty emotional for them (us too, just listening). As well as the trip to the Washington Memorial, where our friend Warren was crying most of the way through.
It was touching, and very good for the soul. Glad I went.
We did get off by ourselves on Sunday and went to the inner Harbor in Baltimore and to Fells Point for the Oyster Festival and stayed all day until late in the evening. They had a Raggae (sp) band at the festival which was a lot of fun.
Glad to be back here at the campfire though, missed you all and thought of you many times while away. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
JJ, I wanted so much to be able to meet you somewhere but I knew with the people we were with and the tight schedule it just wasn't going to be possible. There will be another time though, but probably in Wisconsin.
Edited: Oh I misquoted ole 2long and had to come back and fix it. I also wanted to address the uncertainty of love thing with JJ -
All romantic relationships are uncertain until there is a commitment of marriage, IMO...and then it becomes a partnership. So I do so know what you are talking about in being in a place in an R, where you are kind of in an inbetween stage...not married and yet still committed for the time being, but not yet for life. It can seem precarious but I don't allow myself to dwell on it anymore, and I can't really say what changed for me except for the fact that I know I will take my love with me where ever I go, and if it happens that we get married then yahoo, all the better, cuz I can't think of anyone I like more, or enjoy being with more than GB!
But until he marries me I am single, and make a conscious effort to make decisions based on that premise. I just look towards his part of the country a little more in terms of job searches, etc...and try not to get ahead of myself, but then I had already planned on selling my homes and moving so if we do marry...well, I'll be moving with him and that is the only difference in my goals, that he'll be included longterm. If not, we sure are having a good time AND he is good for me, and I him (I think I am anyway).
Wow, what a lot of babbling in this little edit. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
In my opinion. Of course if I were to really give my opinion it would be that there is not such thing as uncertain love.
I agree - true love is not uncertain.
With J, it's not that love is uncertain, it's ........ what's going to come of it?
I enjoyed reading about your travels Weaver. It's fun to know what others are doing.
You are doing so well. Your thoughts are organized, your outlook so wise. I smile when I read you these days, I used to hurt when I read.
This weekend we'll have a B day party for two grand children. A boy one year old, and a girl two years old. (Different families) The mothers of both will be in a triathlon Sat morning, and the party will be at a local park in the afternoon.
Saturday evening, my W and I will begin a short three day trip. We try to take one both spring, and fall. This would be the fall one, in case anyone wondered.
We plan on staying in Boulder city Nevada and spending a little time in the desert, and at the lake.
It's fun to travel with my partner. It's fun to spend all day, every day with her for a while.
hmmm...creeping crud, couldn't find it in the medical dictionary. Must be one of those Texan diseases <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ask away, SS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Keeping you in my prayers, Kimmy and Wookie. God's blessings on both of you.
Waving madly to Weaver! Hi to JJ, Appy, 2long, FAR, and anyone else I may have missed.
Better or worse? Better, definitely better. Every week I see him taking more responsibility for his actions and becoming more repentent. Still need a lot of work in the conflict avoidance and passive agressive areas, though now I am owning my part of the dance too. We are going to need some counseling at some point I think. Dates or no dates? Very few dates recently as DS is in therapy the past few weeks and that takes our helper away. This should end next week. Help or no help? See above
And the big one - Does your chewing gum loose it's flavor on the bed post overnight? Heck, it loses its flavor BEFORE I put it on the bedpost. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Oh, and vacation? We have to go back to the drawing board for dates as his office secretary is gone most of October. We are thinking early November now. No reservations yet.
All in all? Getting better all the time. First time in 5 years that I can breathe. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Nice he is helping. Remember that all marriages (all that I have ever known anything about) have problems at times. Mine does. It's lots better, and we like it, but we still have days.......
Most men wish they could marry the perfect women - because then she would be patient with our faults, and love us even when we make big mistakes. Of course, all women wish........ Ah - but then, you would already know that one, wouldn't you.
If you are coming this way, early November is USUALLY still wonderful. Last year it didn't freeze here until Thanksgiving weekend. Cool mornings, nice afternoons. USUALLY.
My gum has just about lost it's flavor for today too. I think I'll go home to dinner.
I won't holler at you for not doing dates weekly. It's hard, but I won't. Really, I won't. Promise.
Hi FF - and thanks SS. I'd like to do a race next year. My MTB race last month taught me that endurance swimming doesn't give you legs tough enough to be King of the Mountain. Playing tennis with my buddy from CA yesterday reminded me again. Getting older and creakier too.
Update on me: just finished a house project. Working hard. Don't ask about women. It's tough out there. I should be doing much better. Tomorrow's another day.
As for being here vs. not being here, like J was talking about... I hurt when I read people's stuff here. I read their stories and it feels like it's happening to me.
I've been thinking about this a lot since the Lady Clueless stuff happened. Not the first time for one of those arguments either.
But then I started wondering what the heck I'm doing here. I think maybe I'm really, finally an infidelity survivor. I don't know whether we're going to stay married long term or not, but I don't fret over it anymore either... ...until I get sucked back into the drama of fresh wounds and struggles to understand a particular affair.
iloveulove is pretty darn quiet these days, but I think I need to hie myself on over there more of the time, and spend less time here, on loveshack.org, and on SYMC.
Make my "stand" there.
-Qfwfq (aka 2long) P.S. Hey, we've got WALLS in our living room! and it took less than FIVE YEARS to get them!
SS, have a really good time with your wife this weekend! How fortunate that you are still having fun together and that you have shared a life together.
Sometimes I think people don't realize how blessed that is, at least not the people who still have their families intact and seem so unhappy and unsatisfied.
I know why 2long, Appy, Faith, Kimmy, and all the others who were given the opportunity to stay or to go, stayed. You all could have gotten out and started over with someone new but you didn't. And you didn't because you see beyond yourself to the greater good. That is what greatness is made of. And to be able to do that and be happy, satisfied, productive people at peace with themselves and their experience is beyond awesome.
SS, you have something together with your wife and children that is truly wonderful, and I hope that the others who are still together get to that place as well, and I think they will...for the rest I hope for them the same as I hope for myself, a life of peace, love and service to others. What more after all is there worth hoping for?
Being with those really old people in Baltimore calmed me, soothed my soul so to speak in ways I can't articulate. It was wonderful because it wasn't all about hanging out at the beach and nightclubs, we actually got to share a few days out of the lives of a couple of really great men. Not Generals or Presidents but men who were really, really great in what they stood for, their legacy is awesome in that they have a lifetime of giving and service to others, including their families.
Awesome hearts and awesome minds...that is why I come back to the fire and MB as well.
I love reading what everyone here thinks. In our 3D lives how many people ever really get a chance to know what is on other people's minds? I mean the important stuff about how they feel, what their dreams are, what their pain, their experience of life is?
2Long that thread you referred to was very hurtful to even read. Those threads always end up hurtful to someone. The last one I ended up backing down, and it bothered me for days that because of not wanting to hurt someone elses feelings I let them talk to me like I was stupid... You were right, they are not enlightening, not in the least... very hurtful to a lot people.
I emailed SecondHarvest yesterday to ask how I could help, and I know that you Gray are always always looking for ways to contribute...have you heard of that outfit?
{{GC}} The right woman is gonna find you. You are a class act my friend. 2long, I hope you will come back now and then. I don't post as much as i used to, don't feel the need which is good. I too feel I am a survivor. However, I got so much from MB I still feel compelled to give back.
Weaver that was beautiful about the older people you spent time with. What is second harvest?
Geesh, how can anyone not do well with all this hugging going on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Did you ever read what happens to little babies when they have no physical, loving contact?
GB and I were just talking about the importance of human touch (we are both very physically and verbally affectionate) and the healing properties of human touch.
My little girl often acts like she doesn't like me to hug and squeese her anymore, but I still glimpse the gleam in her eye after I do it anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Hiking by your woods this week, reading the posts from earlier and wanted to pop in and say that you campfire folks help others more than you know.
Before my marriage ended, JustJ helped me a ton over at SYMC. Ex and I worked w/Cerri but X couldn't let go of dream of being w/OW. They are now together, w/an OC that they conceived while x and I were still married. "Are they married?", everyone asks me. Well, I have no idea.
I love reading about your music interests (I'm an Americana loving chick myself). I pay $$ to see those guys.
And Grey, I did my first mtn bike race last January. Is it something about being single that makes us try this stuff? Next time maybe we should ditch the team and go the whole 24 hrs! Talk about earning your beer huh? Anyway, it proves our hearts can't be that broken.
2Long, I can certainly relate to your troubles. XH didn't pull the plug on our M...he was too passive for that. He just sleepwalked through several years of our lives, screwing OW off and on and lying about it until I decided I was worth more than what I was getting. I admire you for hanging in there.
So here I am, I've been a SAHM for years and have to go back to work yesterday, but haven't found anything yet. I've become a kick-A cyclist (both road and mtn) and I play tennis a couple of days a week. I've posted on MB over the years but mostly lurked. Because of folks like you, I've been able to accept my situation. I wish things had turned out better for the sake of my children. I have lots of terrific male friends...some of whom were interested until they found out that I'm a walking bundle of issues.
Because of you, when those guys asked me out I was able to laugh and say "not yet, my life is a mess". And it was easy. And I think they appreciated it.
So thanks again. I'll let you resume your regularly scheduled programming.
It is appropriate we end this week by noting at 12:03 a.m. (and some seconds) tomorrow morning, September 23 (EDT), the world will experience the Autumnal Equinox.
This is the moment the sun is located directly over the equator.
When the sun is balanced on this knife-edge, it can fall one way or the other. Only later will we scientists know for sure which way it has fallen.
We will determine this by examining the coats on caterpillars.
Stoke up the campfire, put on some dark robes and enjoy this mysterious annual event.
Well - while you all are still in a helpful mood, and all of you vacate this premise - here is an opportunity to help.
FF - i am a conflict avoider, probably somewhat passive agressive - and not looking forward to the next few steps.
We still have not de-cohabited. I do not look forward to it - but i know it must happen. But we are in a nice house, and the kids have friends, and it is a magical neighborhood. When we de-cohabit we will all live in little apartments, and be starting over. And I will be paying CS and probably some alimony (although I am shooting for 50/50 - but I do not know how it will fall). I just want to avoid all of that crap. But I gotta do it. I like XW less each day, and will eventually hate her if we continue too long. (no pun intended)
I am studying assertiveness on the internet, but I need to deal with the CA issue.
I feel pretty much like a wuss right now.
I still have a crush, but am nowhere near being able to do anything about it. Nice to have a little motivation, though!
I will keep the fire stoked, and the beer cold.
I sure appreciate you guys.
I, too, wanted to be dead. I am glad that I did not die, and that I am not dead.
I wrote a surfer analogy the other morning....
Quote
Life and surfing are the same. Some people are on the shore watching. Many are surfing - in different states of preparedness - some with protective skins - some raw.
Some are on longboards, in low, steady waves in shallow water over sand. Some are on short boards - surfing huge waves over rocks.
I feel like I am there. And I have already fallen off and been ground in. It took a while to get up again. The blood is still fresh - but starting to clot and scab up. The excrutiating pain has subsided.
starving, I'm glad I could help you some. It's hard to know sometimes whether I help or not. Penny (Cerri) and I were talking about it the other day and we agreed that the more we learn about people and relationships, the less certain we are that telling someone any one thing (or anything at all) is actually the right thing to do. We've also both seen many situations when all we could do was offer what comfort we could -- places where there were no good answers at all, much less ones that the people who are involved will actually implement.
Still, I do feel as though just listening and offering a shoulder to cry on is a help to a lot of people. And treating people like they're sane when they're not sure they are seems to help some, too.
Now I'm going to go play with a new toy. It lets you take a picture of a room and paint it and put in new flooring. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Take it easy on yourselves. The problem is that at least one party has usually checked out of the marriage before you come on the scene. You gave good advice and admittedly I didn't follow all of it. I was fine until you suggested Plan B instead of a legal separation. After months of pulling out my calendar while my H just sat there in front of the TV (sometimes he didn't speak to me for an entire day), I just didn't have the energy anymore. Plan B may have worked but I waited too long.
X used to make faces at the phone during our consults w/Cerri. While he was doing that, he'd tell her that it was going well, that he thought we'd make it, etc. How could she have known to tell me it was time for Plan B w/that kind of feedback?
Just last week, X was over here telling me that it was my fault that he is trapped. Here's a guy w/a live-in fiance (if not wife) and an OC. He truly believes that somehow I am responsible. Sigh.
The best revenge is living well. I took the kids on some cool trips this summer. Also went on some myself. X would come to pick up the kids and I'd have all my backpacking stuff or my mtn bike sitting in the living room. He always asked where I was going and w/whom. There he is, w/the GF who doesn't ride or hike or do anything (except screw) and a baby. I loved to say "well I was free of responsibilites this weekend so I'm going biking for 3 days". I'd then ask him to help me with the cooler.
Thanks for inviting me back,SS. Hope you all had a great weekend. Mine was full of music and just enough weirdness to keep things interesting, and that was just Saturday night. The rest was kid-centric.
One thing we know is that it's time to separate and go to no contact long before anyone thinks it is. I usually start talking to people about it the first time they show up. Not to scare them -- but because it's something that they need to start thinking about. I know from my own experience that it's the hardest thing in the world. It feels so very WRONG to "walk away" from a spouse you love and a marriage you want to save. It took me almost a year -- and it should have taken me about fifteen minutes. If I'd separated, I suspect I would still be married now.
That's water under the bridge, though, and I don't beat myself up about other people's marriages. I help where I can and more and more I accept that there's very little that actually helps at all. As you say, by the time someone types "infidelity" into a Google search and finds a bulletin board to post on, things are usually pretty bad.
There's a large segment of marriage counselors and other marriage-focused folks (clergy, social services folks, researchers, policy wonks) who believe that it's much more effective and important to focus on educating people about what a good marriage is before there are any problems showing up. The Bush administration has supported this position, which has led to a charge that Republicans are trying to return us to the marital Stone Age and interfering in our private lives. That's unfortunate, I think; I like very little about the Bush administration (including how they've given out the money associated with this initiative), but the basic policy is, I think, correct.
See for more information about healthy marriages from the Govt's perspective.
I've thought several times about marriage education for people whose marriage have ended after an affair. We know that second marriages have an even higher failure rate than first marriages (about 10 to 15 percent higher). Some of that is probably due to the very high rate of failure of marriage that arise out of infidelity, but I don't know how much -- I've never seen any statistics on the fraction of second marriages that start as affairs.
Even so, though, second marriages, particularly those that involve kids, are much more complex than first marriages. It's inevitable that a second marriage -- with an ex and/or kids on one or both sides -- involves a whole lot more relationships that need to succeed at some level. We need to learn how to do that, and how to do the basic things that we may not have been good at the first time around. Lots of learning available there -- and no matter what else happens during the end of a marriage, I know that I learned more about relationships and people in the last four years than I had probably learned in the fifteen years before that. (Silver lining in dark clouds, ayup.)
I do wish there were better ways to teach kids (and I do mean kids) about marriage. We make them all take driver's education, after all, but marriage education is in that category of things with ethics and religion where, as a society, we seem to prefer that knowledge be passed from parents to children without going through society's filter. That's good in many cases -- and in many cases it leaves kids woefully unprepared.
Hmm. I went off on a bit of a tangent, there. In any case, starving, I'm pretty aware of the kinds of flaws there are in working with people -- your ex-husband making faces is only one of many examples like that. This expression: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> is something that comes through only lightly in voices, though it's tremendously apparent on people's faces. It's also the case that when we try to help someone on the boards, we're only hearing half the story -- and people inevitably miss details that are crucial to giving good advice.
That's one reason that more and more I focus on the person who's actually posting. Their ability to stay grounded and focused on their own stuff, and their ability to make compassionate, rational decisions, is the only thing I can influence. Even those things are very difficult to get to. But they're still more likely to succeed than the "how do I get him/her to change?" stuff.
Because the answer to that is, "You change. Then we'll see what happens around you. And then you can make decisions from there."
Going hiking/biking while your ex stays home with his choices? Good for you. Say, what's the best thing that could happen to your ex, his new wife/fiance, and their child, you, and your kids? In all this mess at this point and with all these factors, is there a situation that you can see that would be healthiest for everyone?
I wish I had a more children. Funny how these things work. Your H's A gave you more children. My W's A prevented us/me from having more - they would have interfered with her VLTA.
I wish I had more kids, too. But I'm really glad Kimmy's got some to take care of -- and that they have her! I'd love for more kids to have parents as loving as her and Wookie. (And fewer kids to have to live with neglect and abuse.)
Kids are a lot like marriage. Lots of work, but there is joy in it if it's done right. Sometimes heartache, sometimes hardship, but joy too, much of the time.
Aph, do you have any of that joy back in your marriage?
If anyone has a few spare kids, I can probably find a home for 'em. Don't tell HoFS, though. He gets all worried about puppies and kids and stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
An out of sequence update from a couple of weeks ago.
This weekend [actually it was three weeks ago] with HoFS and his boys was utterly fantastic. Saturday in particular.
We started with waking up in each other's arms at about 6am. Or at least, that's my best guess. But we've been together for long enough that we did the only sane thing available -- got up, went to the bathroom, and went back to sleep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I woke up again about two hours later when HoFS came back to bed and kissed me and said that the water was on for our shower.
What a man. I do love him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
We showered together (not as long as we'd have liked) and then went down to breakfast. Pancakes for breakfast, woohoo!
While HoFS took his oldest to an appointment, the younger two went off to their mom's to clean the barn at her house (They have chickens that they raise for 4-H. A really cool project, it seems to me.) and I gathered up branches and leaves that HoFS had trimmed from the bushes in the front yard and talked to Cerri on the phone. It felt really good to get some exercise. And so nice to talk to Cerri, though she wasn't exactly a happy camper just then. I don't get to talk to her very often, these days, though, so even when she's very sad and upset, I'm glad to hear her voice.
When the boys got back, we made these fantastic grilled tortillas for lunch.
Grown-up version: Take a tortilla (preferrably whole wheat), top it with mozarella cheese, parmesan cheese, basil, oregano, red pepper flakes, and garlic powder. Top that with the ripest, freshest, juiciest tomato slices you can find, then pop it on the grill for five minutes.
Kid version: Same thing, but make it like pizza. Pizza sauce, spices as above, cheese, and then whatever you want -- pepperoni, ham, etc.
Oh. My. God. they were good. I ate two. Way more than I needed. But it made me happy. We had sliced veggies and I had hot apple cider to drink with it.
If anyone's ever heard of Za'atar, that would be wonderful on it. (I'm referring to the spice mix called Za'atar, not Syrian hyssop, which I've never had. For those who don't know it, the spice mix version is one of the best spice mixes I've ever had. It varies some, but usually has sesame seeds, thyme, marjoram, sumac, sometimes Syrian hyssop, salt and pepper and other things too.)
After lunch something insane happened -- HoFS' younger two boys wanted us to play flag football.... and I -did-. I think the last time I played flag football I was in high school and I was forced to do it in gym class. That would make it 20+ years ago. Sheesh.
So we played, us against them. They claimed that I cheated because the youngest couldn't grab my flag after I recovered a fumble and ran for a touchdown. I say we won fair and square even if my flag was around in front instead of hanging down where it was supposed to be. Stuff happens when you're rolling around on the ground like that.
After I declared the game over even though the boys wanted to keep playing (I suspect HoFS would've kept going, too), I dragged my aching and shaky bones upstairs and made it as far as the bed. I'd sorta intended to get in the shower, but, well... you know. These things happen. So HoFS found me lying on his bed, salty, sweaty, and only partially clothed. I'll leave the rest to your fertile imaginations and yes, it was every bit as good as you think it was... and then some. Afterwards, we took a long, hot shower.
I will also note that it is now Monday evening and I -still- have sore muscles. The worst of it is my left leg, which I've been unable to lift correctly since about ten minutes into the game. Ah, well. I did have fun, even though I'm terrible at and usually refuse to participate in things like that.
So where was I? Oh yes, in the shower. Right. So I managed to make it back out of the shower and downstairs, and everyone set about making dinner. HoFS and I had our by-now-standard salmon with honey-dill-butter sauce. HoFS Middle Son (HMS) made the steaks for the boys and baked the potatoes. I sauteed the veggies for me and HoFS (onion, carrot, broccoli, and green pepper with olive oil and sun dried tomatoes, dry mustard, salt, and honey) and HMS. HOS and HYS (oldest and youngest) had raw veggies. We had something of a sociable chat at dinner time.
Then there was quiet time for a while, I think. Or really, all through that was quiet time. Sitting on the couch, me playing a silly video game and him looking through decorating magazines for ideas for his living room.
OH! That reminds me. Must send pictures to Cerri so that she can give him decorating advice.
.....
Wow. That was a REALLY long distraction. My oh my, the places my brain can go.
Sheeesh.
Anyway.
After dinner we rested for a while. And then we made the jumbalaya for the church picnic for the next day. It was, I'm told, too spicy for an Ohio church picnic. (Is anyone here surprised? Only that it was just the FOOD that was too spicy? MMMmhmmmmm. Me too.)
We also made cole slaw from one of the recipes HoFS came home with that morning. Huh. When was it that we went to the grocery store to get the ingredients? Oh. Oh!!
Right! I forgot. After the shower and before dinner was going to church to talk to God.
I had a hilarious experience while I was there. The Goddess showed up and told me She was there but made me promise not to tell anyone there. She thought it was a great joke. I nearly giggled out loud right in the middle of communion.
And the Presence there, no matter what it was, was truly amazing. What a sense of peace!
Anyway. Back to making the cole slaw. We went to the grocery store after church and then went home to cook dinner.
The cole slaw had giant red grapes in it. We decided later that people probably thought they were olives and skipped the dish. Oh well. It was pretty good cole slaw and I really liked the jumbalaya.
It was really good to spend so much time in the kitchen with HoFS this weekend. We both love to cook and we don't get to do quite that much of it very often. I hope that when we have a B&B someday when we're elderly, we'll get to do some kind of cooking together for a couple of hours every day or so. I think we'd both enjoy that a lot.
(In fact, if we just repeated Saturday fairly often, we'd both be pretty happy.)
Then it was getting on towards 10pm and we hadn't had dessert. So we got out one of the chocolate fondue bars from The Melting Pot (a souvenir of our anniversary dinner at the end of August) and we and the boys proceeded to eat melted chocolate on strawberries, banana slices, pineapple, and marshmallows. I showed HoFS how to make marshmallow fluff. He showed me how to stick your tongue all the way through a marshmallow.
And after that completely hilarious interlude, we staggered our way upstairs to bed. But it wasn't quite time for sleep yet. HoFS brought his guitar and played for a while, and I wrote him a note about something he'd asked me to write about.
And finally, many happy hours after our day had begun, we turned off the light and ended our day as it had begun. On our left sides, his left arm under my neck and around my shoulder, his right arm over my side and across my chest. Spooning, they call it? I call it heaven. Wrapped up safe and warm in his arms, every part of my existence contented and relaxed.
Thanks for sharing. Sounds like a perfect day. The quest for a perfect day is sort of a one-person contest w/me. I've been able to get pretty close by myself but your ending is better.
One question for you? What kind of relationship do you have w/your OP? If you have described it, then I am sorry because I missed it.
Just curious because you asked a tough question in your last post to me. I have thought about it lots and I'm afraid the answer requires more poise and grace than I can muster.
My OP has an incurable STD, lied to me, lied to my x, has had at least 4 abortions. She and X violated me in every way...sleeping w/X in my bed, screwing in my shower, staying over while kids were home when I was out of town (the worst offense of all). It burns me that she is so friendly to my kids when she did everything she could to wreck their childhood. I have asked X not to leave them alone w/her until they are married because I do not feel she is a responsible adult. He says she would never do anything to hurt them. Oh brother.
I haven't spoken to her and hope I never have to. I have seen her but pretend she isn't there. Not sure how to resolve this. Do I have to speak to her? It seems she is the future, although X calls their impending union a "business decision" because of OC.
Thanks Kimmy. If there is anyone here who knows how strong you are, it's me. I could've done what you did but it was too much. XH tried to come back but I couldn't handle an OC. That, and I didn't believe he could change. This was the second pg. OW terminated the first but the 2nd was her trump card. She went from cashiering in a grocery store to being a SAHM. She is completely supported by XH. He loves OC and once told me he is tired of f-ing up. So, he is resigned to marrying her. It's his life and his choices.
This is an interesting week to ask that question, starving. Monday was Yom Kippur and my ex was interpreting (she's a sign-language interpreter) at services for the entire day. Yom Kippur is a marathon religious event if there ever was one. More than nine hours of services in less than 24 hours.
So DD was with me the night before and all that day. My ex insisted that I had to hand DD over to her new husband at 6pm because she would still be interpreting but wasn't willing for me to bring our daughter to services.
I didn't want to do it and told her so, but after I thought through all the alternatives, I decided this was probably the least harmful one. So I arrived, all prepared to change DD into her dress and hand her over to my ex's new husband.
NH (New Husband) comes out of services, walks up to me, grabs DD out of my arms, and walks away with her.
Without saying anything.
Without taking her backpack.
Without stopping to find out how she was doing.
He made it maybe ten steps before I called him back. So he comes back with DD and says, "Okay, DD, say goodbye to Mama..."
So I took her back in my arms and said, "I'd like to put her dress on her, please."
The man refused to give me her dress, tried to pull her back out my arms again, told me that HE was going to change her into her dress (!), and then when I wouldn't give DD back to him, said, "I'm going to tell [ex] that you won't give her to me!"
I think my response was, "Uhmmm. Okay."
It's worth noting that he had previously been ordered by our parenting coordinator to avoid changing DD's clothes and being involved in other naked-little-girl situations.
Things calmed down a great deal after my ex showed up. She seemed to be a bit perplexed at why he wouldn't give me the dress and let me change our daughter. And it appears to me that her new husband pretty much had a tantrum and was acting about as well as a sullen child himself by the end of it.
We ended up all changing DD together and then we all went our separate ways.
So my advice to you about your ex-husband's affair partner will be colored by my recent interactions with my ex's new husband, whom I do not like nor trust:
If you are concerned about her being around your kids, then don't participate in it. Take the time to clearly understand where the limits of your control are, and don't spend one single second on the stuff you can't control. But you never have to participate in conversations with her about your kids, nor do you have to give her any inroads into your life, your time with your kids, or any similar thing.
So, for example. Penguins are banned from my house because of the associations with two men -- one who helped start my relationship with my ex, and one who helped end our relationship. I've gotten a fair amount of grief about it. But it's my house and by golly, all the penguins can live at my ex's house and not come to visit my house.
That's a silly example, but it illustrates -exactly- where the line of control is. Think it through and make sure you know what you can really control -- and then make that the healthiest environment you possibly can for you and your kids.
Hi Kimmy! Thanks for your kind words. I'm currently working on a project to find a place where I can post my writings all in one coherent place, and in a little more detail than I usually post here on the campfire thread. I can't do it over on SYMC for various reasons, unfortunately, so we're working on a place for me and people like me who want to talk about current relationships and new love -- and then figure out ethical ways to deal with it. It's an interesting effort, but I'm glad to be doing it. I really need an outlet for my writing -- one where I can write freely and without concern.
SS, I'm glad you're getting a little rain. The desert will bloom, yes? Or is it the wrong time of year for that?
Yes, penguins the bird. See, my ex's new husband looks very much like the Penguin from Batman, and he's collected toy penguins for many years. So all the penguins live at my ex's house and they don't come over to my house. Similarly, there was a toy penguin involved in the beginning of my relationship with my ex, also associated with a man she'd dated (I had also dated him). So all in all, I try to keep penguins out of my life as a reminder of the difficulties of foolish ethical choices.
Wrong season for bloom - but the sage and other desert plants smell good in the rain.
Mmmmmmmmmm.
J, I sometimes think about you and HoFS. I go round, and round with it, but nothing comes.
Hope you find solutions before much more time passes. I don't know what the solution is, or can be, or will be, or even should be, but God has always held the answers/solutions to all my problems.
SS, I think about it too. I know what I want. I don't know what's ethical, what creates the greatest chance for peace, tranquility, and happiness for everyone involved. I don't want to make selfish choices. And restraint is very difficult with such strong emotions involved. It's a good thing, in some ways, that HoFS and I are trying out the "traditional role models" route. I jump from A to Z without even noticing that there are letters in between, and then I go back and fill them in when I need to. HoFS walks from one thing to the next and examines each of the intermediate steps for flaws and logic errors. If this were mathematics, I would've written down Fermat's last theorem and left the proof to him. It's a good thing that he's patient and loves me and stuff. If I were him, I might get annoyed that so much stuff was left as an "exercise for the reader."
I just made this analogy up. I think I need to share it with him. It really is quite apropos.
On a side note, being traditional is a fascinating adventure for me. I bet all the radical feminists and some of the lesbians that I know would be horrified. I think of it as cultural anthropology. In other words, I've gone native, right here in America. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
The professor says, “It is intuitively obvious to the casual observer that….”
A student says, “I don’t understand. Will you please explain?”
Professor thinks for a few minutes then walks out of the classroom. For weeks the class meets but the professor fails to show up.
Finally, near the end of the term, the professor staggers into the classroom all dirty, unwashed and dishevel with a long, unkempt beard. He lugs a huge dusty old tome up to the front desk and flops it down. He opens it up to a page near the back and says, “See, right here. It IS intuitively obvious to the casual observer!”
And on the opposite side of nerdiness, we have, well, something else.
I'm gathering up posts of mine to try to put together into a coherent set of thoughts (usually known as "a book"). If you have a favorite post of mine, would you mention it or link it up here? I'd really like that. Thanks!
Well, J, I'm sure you know, very often, traditional roles exist not because they were set down by cruel slavemasters and selfish patriarchs, but because they actually work.
People love to think their generation is the first that thought to buck tradition and try a different approach. I always say, hey buddy, those shenanigans are nothing the ancient Egyptians didn't already try.
I get in trouble with this all the time. People have these knee-jerk reactions, you know.
Disclaimer: I'd never demand that someone in my life fit into some role I'd cooked up in my head. The opposite.
Hot tamales, chocolate truffles and jelly bellys for everyone else!
Sounds good, but I'll hold off till tomorrow. I'm doing a brief bit of a fast today. I'm having liquids, so it's not a complete fast.
Hmmm. Actually, could I have real tamales, a big salad, and milk with that instead? Sugar doesn't sound as good as real food right now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Oooooo! Wouldja post the recipe, Kimmy? HoFS and I have been talking about making tamales. I got masa and corn husks a couple weeks ago but wasn't sure where to go from there other than the recipe on the masa package. Something someone really likes would be fabulous!
Sadly, there are only two things that my mother in law didn't get to teach me before she passed. They are how to make her tamales and how to make her pollo mole.
Now I'm really hungry.
Have you ever had Honeycrisp apples? OMG! The stores here only have them for about 2 months out of the year...but I won't ever eat another kind of apple. I'll just wait till Oct/Nov every year for them.
Heh heh heh. HoFS just introduced them to me this past weekend. I returned the favor by introducing him to Macoun apples. They are both fabulous.
It's a good thing I've had some soup and an apple (gala, I believe) in the last few minutes, or I would be drooling on this keyboard.
I'll have to continue on the less-certain path for tamales. I've had Rick Bayless's "Authentic Mexican" cookbook since before he was famous, and I'll probably try what's in there first. Goooooood stuff.
And on a completely different cultural note, tonight's supper will be "Pizza in the Hut." It's a joke -- the "hut" is the sukka and it's Sukkot. Hurray, 90 minutes with DD. (We'll ignore, for the moment, the other people who will attend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
Ah... the joys of continuing to figure out how to co-parent.
On Monday, DD and I were driving back from Ohio. (Lovely weekend. Had dinner with friends of his, drank expensive Chinese liquor, had a good time. Played flag football again. HoFS iced his knee and I put a heating pad on my back afterward. We fell asleep holding hands like that.)
So anyway, we’re on our way back from Ohio. My ex calls and says her husband’s car in the shop and won’t be able to pick it up at the right time, making getting home tough. So she asked me if I would pick her up at the Metro and give her a ride home. I said sure, I'd be happy to.
Then she said her husband would also be at the house and I could just drop DD off there if that made more sense for the timing. I suggested that we wait to see what made the most sense after we had a little better sense of timing. She agreed, and we decided to check in with each other when I was closer to home.
So later I gave her an update and she wrote back and said she wouldn’t need a ride after all, and said that if she wasn’t home when I got there, that I just drop DD of with her husband.
I asked that she let me know when she’d be home, and she asked that I just take DD to the house.
I said, "After what happened last time? Uhm. Thanks, but we'll wait until you're home."
She got annoyed about that and said, via text, “…If you would simply deliver her to [her husband] just as you would to me, there's no reason for there to be a problem, and that is much better for [DD] than extending what has already been a very long day in the car."
That kinda sent my eyebrows into my hairline, but hey. So I didn’t answer -- there's not much I can do about her car trouble making her late, and I didn’t want to answer in a way that would force it to be a fight.
After we’d continued our drive toward DC, I sent another message asking, "What time will you actually be home?"
She didn't answer right away, so I went to the grocery store closest to her house to get milk and sundries. As soon as we walked in, my ex tried to call. I missed her the first time, and she called again. The conversation went something like this:
J: Hello? Ex: Where are you? J (deciding not to say "Hi, nice to hear from you, too!"): I stopped at Giant to get milk. Ex:: *grumbling* Fine. J: So... when are you going to be home? Ex:: I'll be there by the time you get there. J: Okay. See you soon.
And then we went on with our shopping. We got our $29 worth of items and headed for the car. Once we were back in the car, I headed for my ex’s place and sent her a text saying, "Are you actually home yet?"
I pull up to a red light and stop, and the phone rings.
J: Hello. Ex: WHERE ARE YOU??? THERE IS NO WAY YOU WOULD HAVE TAKEN THIS LONG TO GET TO MY HOUSE FROM GIANT!!! J: Uhm. I'm sitting at the corner of [two streets close to her house]. Ex: Well, STOP JUST SITTING THERE AND BRING HER TO ME NOW!!!!! J (fighting a case of the giggles): Uhm. Ex. I'm sitting here because I'm at a red light. I promise that as soon as the light turns green, I will start driving again and we will drive to your house. Ex: (I can't remember what else she said; I was still giggling inside.) J: And, uhm, it would -really- help if you could calm down a little before we get there, okay? Ex: Just bring her to me. J: Okay! See you soon.
So I hang up the phone, and DD says to me, "Was that Mommy? Is she mad?"
J: Yeah, sweetie, that was Mommy. She's a little angry right now. DD: Why is Mommy mad? J: Well, I think she's had a tough day and she's frustrated that you're not home yet and she's not sure what to do about it. DD: Is that why Mommy said, 'Bring her to me NOW'? J: (while thinking, Oh crud, DD heard that?!? Argh!): Yeah, that's why she said that. But like I told Mommy, the light is still red, so we can't go yet. We have to wait until the light turns green. D: Giggling Yeah! Mommmy didn't see that! (pause) Maybe Mommy doesn't know that Ohio is far, far away. J: Welll..... I -think- Mommy knows how far away Ohio is. DD: No she doesn't! Ohio is far, far away and it's a lonnnnnng drive!
I'm guessing she was trying to figure out how she would explain why we weren't home when my ex wanted us to be there. So I suggested that DD ask my exif she knew how far away Ohio is when she got home.
She seemed pretty satisfied with that. She was a bit stressed at the beginning of the conversation but when I was calm and cheerful about it, she calmed down pretty quickly. It also helped that when we did get to my ex’s place, my ex was pretty calm about the transition and did things fairly normally. By then, all DD wanted to do was go jump on their new couches, anyway.
And that was the return from Ohio.
I’m still trying to figure out what the whole deal with the ex and her new husband and the ranting about not doing transitions with him is about. It sure does trigger her, whatever it is.
Regarding my once-divorced friend in an ongoing custody war...
She was remarried several months ago, but she's been unable to move to where her new spouse lives because her ex does not want to share custody over a long distance. My friend has no family here, none. In addition to her new husband, she does have family in the place where she hopes to go.
Since her remarriage, she and her ex have been fighting it out in family court. Yesterday the court informed her of its final decision: she cannot move to where her husband lives, not with her children.
I've volunteered to care about this situation by staying friends with this woman, but given my former role in the story... in the interest of not having past injuries continue to affect me any more than they have to, there are good reasons I should detach from it all.
And I have to tell you, the effect of this news on me was huge. It huuuuuuurt when I heard the news. And I don't want to let this horror show get to me any more, but this woman and I, we got pretty close back there a couple of years ago. I admire her, and I'm not going to quit being her friend. It comes at a cost though, and this is tricky navigating...
Anyway, think of her. She's getting kicked around by the same old culprit.
{{GC}} miss you friend. So sorry about your friend. I hope her H can move to her cuz her kids are of the utmost importance. Too bad her X is using them.
Dang, gray, that's a tough situation. Kids need both parents. I know how hard it is to form a relationship with someone who's far away and how much you want that relationship to be strong and ... whole. And yet, it is so important that kids be close to both parents that I can't disagree with the judge's decision.
I'm sorry for how much pain it's causing you, gray. I really, really am. And I am even more sorry for the pain of all the people whose lives are more directly affected.
And on a completely separate topic, did you know that there are varying numbers of facets cut into a diamond? 57, 58, 64, 108 or so.... And they used to be much smaller numbers. 4, 8, 12, 24. Neither did I. The things you learn...
I wish you were close by to help my DD with Algebra. sigh.... I am not a math geek by any means. I like hot fudge sundaes and kids too. Oh and dogs/cats/birds/fish and going to the aquarium to see my DS face light up with joy.
DS8, DD5 and I lay in the back of the truck last night looking for the comet. (is it northwest from SoCal?) I like looking at the night sky with my kids.
I like sleeping while the sun bakes me.
I do not know how to express how much I love the sound of the ocean lapping at the shore.
I like spiced tea of many flavors.
Funny - I was about to say I like my friends here - and looked up and noticed SS has already said that. Me, too.
I like it when my daughter chatters at me. Even when it's 11:15pm and she should have been asleep 2 1/2 hours before.
I like watching her race from door to door in her Dorothy costume (all the way down to the ruby slipper) yelling "Trick or Treat! THANK YOU!!! Happy Halloween!"
I like having ten people at my dining room table. (Though I don't like DD having a "trantrum" in the middle of it because HER sloppy joe bun without the meat and with catsup instead doesn't look exactly like little-boy-next-door's bun with just catsup. *sigh*)
I like my house quiet so that DD and I can do our bedtime and morning routines without excess insanity. Thank goodness we -have- routines, though, so that even when my parents and sister are in town for more than a week, we can sorta continue to function.
I like SweeTarts. And Milky Way Dark. And being old enough not to OD on the stuff. Quite.
My brother's wife is about to have a baby. For a long time everyone thought it was a girl. My brother called me about two weeks ago and said,
"Gray, my baby's got balls."
You have to know my brother. Anyway, if the head is pointed right, my parents will have their first grandchild this weekend.
Last December, I finally kicked cigarettes for good. I can swim several miles without a rest. Who thinks it's safe to smoke a cigar in my bro's garage?
Anyone have any gift ideas? Not for the baby, that's done. For the parents! My SIL has spent her entire pregnancy sick. It's been rough.
Sleep - Not the little itty bitty 16 oz bottles of sleep most places sell, but the 5 gal size or even the contractor 50 gal drum size.
They'll need all the sleep they can get.
Last December, I finally kicked cigarettes for good. I can swim several miles without a rest. Who thinks it's safe to smoke a cigar in my bro's garage?
SS, decided to forgo the trip out your way this year. I have reservations to go to San Diego Thanksgiving weekend. Family vacation from Wednesday to Saturday. Big surprise for DD too. We booked her a trainer in training at Sea World. She gets to get wet with the Dolphins.
Things are going well. We are happy most of the time. Not sure anyone can say ALL the time.
*Great* idea, FF. I hope I have time. Let's see... enchiladas, lasagne. Everybody likes those.
Are women fussy eaters sometimes, just after they've had a baby? If I remember correctly, my SIL normally doesn't like things with... how to put this... uh, flavor.
GC, avoid a lot of strong spices as it passes to the baby in the breast milk. So go easy on the garlic and onions. I love your ideas, they sound yummy.
BTW, both FF, and Aph had great ideas. Prepared meals are a BIG HELP. When our twins were born, we had people bringing us meals for two weeks. It was nice. We could concentrate on the babies schedule, and getting enough rest, not on fixing food.
Stuff that's easy and can be warmed up any time. I think both of your ideas are good, but ask if you wonder.
FF, SD sounds like fun ! I bet your DD will love it. We have one that likes animals, and I know she would.
It's easy to tell from your posts that you are doing better. You don't sound stressed, and you give advice with confidence. Keep it up !!
And hearty soups that freeze well - black bean soup, great northern bean soup with ham, etc.
Don't forget about that little bottle of pink stuff (Kimmy I know you remember the name). I didn't find out about it until P was 4 months old and she was very colicky! It was such a life saver, so if the little guy is colicky get them some of that pink stuff.
It is so nice to stop by and see the flames of Grays camp-fire burning brightly!
Don't take a chance on the cigar Gray, it's not worth a relapse!
Faith, I'm so happy things are going well (mostly) and that your DD gets to "swim with the dolphins"! How fun for her!
I hope you guys have a really good time. I'll take "mostly" good because that is a start and you know what? If you concentrate on the good times, they will expand. What ever we concentrate our mental energy on expands.
Hi SS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Do I have this right, GC is making dinners for a soon to be mother???
Seriously, and this guy is still single??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Lasagne and enchiladas are always two of the dishes I make for new moms. I also have this great chicken foil dinner, it freezes easy, and is easy to prepare, so they have a freezer dinner as well.
If you give me the great foil chiken recipe, I'll give you the best oatmeal, choco chip cookie recipe in the world. BTW, I was reading your silly thread earlier and saw you guys talking about Chicken Savoy! Hah, I have a good one for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm getting ready to move next summer jelly. Going west a bit, to a really cool city. Leaving my 20 year career so I have been spending all my extra time trying to figure out ways I can work for myself. Concentrating on getting rich now. I never in a million years ever thought I would make money a top priority, but I can't do what I want with my life if I have to slave at a 9 to 5'r all the time.
And I have P back with me all the time now as her Dad took an engineering job in Holland and moved.
Life is wonderful these days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Wow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> you have P full time again? How awesome is that? I am sorry about her dad moving out of the country though. That must hurt.
So, Weavs is this move related to a certain someone?
So, Weavs is this move related to a certain someone?
Yes and no Faithers! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
After what happened with what's his face, I had decided to move. Not only because of him and the island property, and the sound of the ferry horn and my beautiful Lake Superior and all that other good stuff, but because there is just no opportunity here... poor schools, high alcoholic/depression rate, lots of drug use, teen pregnancy, etc and I wanted to get P and myself out of here. Time for a better way of life I think.
Yep, that's where I'm going. I really like that place, at least in the summer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Will there be DVD distribution of your seminar/talk/meeting/dance (what ever it is? It would be cool to see all of your presentations (I think..would it?)
Thanks for reminding us about the dance thing Weaver. I can just see 2long shaking his finger (and lots of other things) while the room echoes with "Staying alive!! Staying alive!!"
Wow, the things you can imagine in your mind's eye.
So GC, did the baby make his appearance? The lasagna is a great idea. My ex and I ate a lasagna for a week at one point in DD's early life. It saved us. Well, okay, it didn't. But it kept us from being very hungry.
Another thing to think about is stuff that your SIL can eat and drink one-handed while she's nursing the baby. Figure out what finger foods she likes that are healthy. Good choices might be grapes, cherries, apples, baby carrots, string cheese, raisins, nuts, soy nuts, trail mix. If you made up a dozen "lunch boxes" for her with finger foods like that inside, she'd be set for a week on her own, which will happen sooner than she wants it to. (Avoid stuff with lots of chocolate in it -- some babies get wired when their moms eat the stuff.) Bottled water is good for similar reasons, too. Oh, and individual size portions of cereal -- those 2 ounce cups of Cheerios and Total, for example -- would probably be helpful, too.
It's also worth remembering that basic things like showering, going to the bathroom, and changing clothes become a production all on their own. If they don't have a bouncy seat yet, offer them one for the bathroom. They won't have thought of it... but they'll probably appreciate it if they have it.
Weaver, you're going west? I thought GB was east of you? Or didja decide that Oshkosh has more opportunities? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hi SS. You made me laugh with your image of 2Long, but Kimmy made me laugh more. Kimmy, if you need a seeing eye cat, I've got a... cat. You can have him cheap.
Hi FF! Sounds like a fun trip. Hi Appy! I like your web site. In six significant figure glory.
My life is very good, thanks. My parents were here for eight days and bought me many things. I'm used to it, though, and had cleared out space for most of it.
And then I went to see HoFS last weekend after not seeing him for 2 weeks. By the end of the two weeks, I was hallucinating him. Interesting experience, that. The first few hours with him were almost like we were strangers who are in love. Funny, after so long, to suddenly feel as though he's unfamiliar.
We raked leaves and talked to God, cooked food together and slept together, and spoke quietly about important things. It was good, restful time. I miss him a lot right now. This is another two week gap, and then we have a long stretch (from before Thanksgiving to after New Years) when we'll see each other every weekend. I think we can do this for a while, if we see each other every weekend. Less than that, though, just aches and aches.
These election results won't be any different if I go to sleep, right?
J, I had that separation from my ex for a year before we were married. It felt like *torture*. We'd bawl like babies when we had to go our separate ways. But I knew it would be a time I'd look back on fondly, which, after we were married, I did. More than fondly. I used to feel lots of nostalgia for that time.
My nephew was born a little past noon today by C section. All's well.
The other day my folks called and I mentioned I was going to the store for lasagna stuff, and Mom said, "Don't! I already made two huge ones." I made enchiladas instead, but not the good kind. The boring kind that pose a minimal risk of producing funky breast milk or heartburn.
I've got Where the Wild Things Are (which won't be much use for a while), a CD of Jacqueline du Pre playing the cello, two pans of enchiladas, and I'll collect more stuff on Friday.
I'll head over to see the kid on Saturday. They live two hours away.
Hi TT! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think that is a great choice for a baby gift book too.
Appy, you truly are a numbers guy, aren't you? I love that show Numb3rs. Have you ever seen it?
And speaking of coffee... saw the rat this morning for the first time since he did what he did a year and a half ago, when I stopped into the gas station by my office for coffee this morning. What a nasty little rush that was. He slithered out the back door as fast as he could upon spotting me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
JJ, I am east of GB in the Upper Peninsula. Actually quite a bit northeast on the Canadian border.
You know the hours you first spent with Hof after being apart for two weeks was described in Journey's "Faithfully" when he sings "and I get the joy of rediscovering you".
GB says that if we weren't long distance it never would have worked at first because I was so hurt that I needed a lot of opportunity for retreating. I didn't realize my woundedness was so obvious to him, but he said he knew. He said it was all over me.
Learning to trust, and learning to be open again is not an easy thing to do, but with the right person it is possible.
Congratulations, GC! Have a wonderful time on Saturday. Tell 'em we all said good luck. (I'm sure they'll think all your Internet buddies are weird beyond belief, but that's all right.)
Weaver, I get it now. I always imagined you over near Houghton for some reason. If you're so far east, I've probably been fairly close to where you live, though not for a long time. When I was in high school, my parents took our sailboat up into Lake Superior to Sault Ste Marie once. It was a loonnnnnng trip from my home town. We had fun that trip, if I remember right.
Which is different from the trip where we were stormed in on Rock Island, which is at the very tip of Door County next to Washington Island, and we were there so long that my brother and I finally had to take the tiny little ferry through the 8 foot waves to go get food on Washington Island (we took the "taxi," which was actually a tour but the lady was nice to us and stopped at the grocery store at the end of the tour and waited for us while we bought groceries and fuel for the stove. On the way back, so much water was coming over the dock that we lost a bag of groceries someone set down and had to go fishing for whatever we could get. Nearly washed my brother into the water, too, and he wasn't little.
And that's different from the trip where we got stormed in in Naubinway's "harbor" with a south wind pushing all of Lake Michigan up our butts and then it snowed when we got to Mackinac and I came down with Mono.
And that's different from the trip where it took 17 pounding hours to cross the Lake back home and we nearly killed ourselves in 15 foot waves off of Rawley's Point.
Did I mention that my dad just bought a new sailboat after 15 years of not having one? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Apparently he doesn't remember what sailing is actually like. *sigh*
It's not broke Gray, it's just not configured correctly. Perhaps you could get Appy to work his number magic to account for the position of the lakes in relationship to us. Also the bad karma coming off one of the islands. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Which is different from the trip where we were stormed in on Rock Island, which is at the very tip of Door County next to Washington Island. And that's different from the trip where we got stormed in in Naubinway's "harbor" with a south wind pushing all of Lake Michigan up our butts and then it snowed when we got to Mackinac and I came down with Mono. And that's different from the trip where it took 17 pounding hours to cross the Lake back home and we nearly killed ourselves in 15 foot waves off of Rawley's Point.
Why oh why couldn't I have been on these trips? How exciting they must have been!
My dad had a sailboat too, but he wouldn't let me sail it until I read this silly little sailing book he had. And of course me being me, I refused. Alas, to this day I know nothing about sailing.
You dad sounds like a cool guy, JJ! Glad he is enjoying life, how lucky for you and the family. You don't know what it means to have mentally/emotionally healthy parents with a zest for life still. Of course being alive would be a start as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
JJ, I am east of GB in the Upper Peninsula. Actually quite a bit northeast on the Canadian border.
I bet the glaciers are really pretty in the afternoon sun! I love the contrast between the aquamarine blue ice and the orange clouds...
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GB says that if we weren't long distance it never would have worked at first because I was so hurt that I needed a lot of opportunity for retreating. I didn't realize my woundedness was so obvious to him, but he said he knew. He said it was all over me.
Learning to trust, and learning to be open again is not an easy thing to do, but with the right person it is possible.
I'm only just starting 2 see glimmers of this kind of communication with my W lately. It's so hard sometimes for me, what with all the other stresses going on in our lives, 2 stifle my own tendencies 2 read her pain the wrong way and assume something I shouldn't or needn't.
We ac2ally have had some interesting conversations about a few Dr Phil episodes that we've watched 2gether, including one about infidelity last night (though I was interrupted having 2 take a check from a movie location scout for some filming coming up next month). And the infidelity thing on the Today show this week (though I haven't been home by the time they air).
We had a particularly interesting convo about the difference between romantic love (the feeling of being "in love") and real love. Even agreeing that love isn't a feeling, but a choice.
She still does try not 2 talk in the first person about our experiences. It's going 2 take a while.
For a cool book DS recommends The Leaf Men, and anything to do with dinosaurs.
When DS was about 2 he decided he wanted to collect dinosaur alphabet books. You know, A is for Anchisaurus (I think Apatosaurus has been demoted back to Brontosaurus, again.) He still has about 50 in his room and he will not get rid of them.
About that weather station, just tell weaver to set her coffee cup somewhere else.
“Also the bad karma coming off one of the islands.”
LOL. Weave, continental scale Feng Shui is not my forte.
I read somewhere that Harley said sometimes it is so difficult for certain personality types to accept blame in hurting another that they have some kind of self-preservation or defense mechanism that helps to deflect it from themselves. Because it may destroy them, accepting what they have done. And in certain personality types they just cannot accept that they have effed up.
So maybe this is a gradual process where the formerly wayward spouse can deal with what they have done inside themselves first, in the way of the third person type convo's.
Seems like a very fragile ego type thing to me, probably resulting from very low self-esteem.
Ever know anyone who just cannot accept any kind of critism at all, even self critism?
Part of that complicated fog stuff I suppose as well.
"She still does try not 2 talk in the first person about our experiences."
This is so deja vu it's positively buoyant.
Appy:
There was another interesting convo this morning, where I said that I believe that many (most?, all?) people essentially need 2 be "subjected" 2 painful experiences in their lives in order 2 grow as individuals. I suppose that I, like her, "avoided" using the first person in describing why I feel this way, though I did conclude that I have had 2 learn the things I've learned the way I did (and I have referred specifically 2 the infidelity in the past).
It came up in a convo about movies and the people who make them and the audiences they're catering 2. Movies are mostly written by "kids" for "kids" (young adults) about subjects like sex and passion. Cheating is an obviously passionate topic, one that is rampant in young 2 middle age adults - the ages that thrive on the drama that is passion, without realizing that they simultaneously attract and even invite it in2 their personal lives (and when it hits them, it devastates them because it isn't simple entertainment anymore - it's personal, painful, and life-changing).
But I was also referring 2 my experiences posting 2 the "OW/OM" board on loveshack.org a while ago (without naming it specifically). These people seem 2 "need" 2 go through the pain of being an OP in oder 2 grow up (and also seem 2 be resisting it kicking and screaming and insisting that there's nothing wrong with what they're doing - they really can't face it and so can't know at this point in time - so it was a waste of my time 2 try 2 reach any of them). Like some of us BSs need 2 be betrayed in order 2 "wake up" 2 there being a problem with the M. Sure, it would be far preferrable that we could learn our lessons without hurting or being hurt so deeply, but the simple fact is that we most often don't learn if we're not thrust in2 a painful si2ation where we have 2 in order 2 stay sane. Like expecting 2 understand calculus by watching it applied a 2ple of times. Won't fly. You need 2 take the courses, do the homework, study and take the tests. ...and then practice!
I said all this stuff this morning. It was interesting noticing my W listening 2 me.
Related topic: Why is Brittney Spears' DV such big news? She's certainly no role model for young girls or women - she's 2 s2pid. And she's not interesting 2 thinking adults either - she's got decades of handling tough experiences in an admirable way 2 go before she's got a shot at wisdom. I just don't get it. ...besides, she sounds funny.
Appy, that was a truly wonderful turn of the phrase.
Weaver, it wasn't exciting. It was cold. And wet. And hard, godawful, miserable work. It was days when I was so cold that when we finally reached safe harbor, I went and stood in the shower for a solid 45 minutes and did not warm up until close to the end of that time. It was barfing over the side of the boat at sunrise. It was coming into harbor after a long, hard day of work and having to start all over again doing the work of tying up and putting away the sails and airing out the cabin and cooking and going to get a shower to get the crud out of my hair. It was learning that you can freeze solid in the middle of July on a sunny day while you're getting a sunburn.
Some people love it. Me? I've politely declined to set foot on a sailboat for 15 years.
However, I do have to agree with you that it's good to have active, healthy parents. I never really thought about that being unusual. And yet, my parents are 68 years old. My dad's finally (after needing to for at least 45 years) going for a sleep test tonight. Tomorrow they do the pre-op for surgery he has to have on his hand. (One of his fingers is permanently cramped inward because of some skin thing that thickens up and limits the motion of the hand.) Still, he lifts weights and rides his exercise bike almost every night. He's also still the president of his company (he'll retire when he's 70) and chairs a non-profit foundation in my home town.
My mom runs her 1.5 acres of gardens and hundreds of houseplants without any help from anyone (except my dad mows the lawn and takes care of the roses and orchids). She has a very active social/political/charitable life and manages to also do the family's financial management. I think she still manages finances for my three siblings -- I finally took my own over when I was 32 or 33. She's slowing down a little, too, though. She's started to walk in that way that older people do when their joints hurt.
My parents visited at the end of October, though, and after a week DD and I were so tired that we wanted nothing more than for them to go home so that we didn't have to keep up with them anymore. They can shop and repair things like no one's business. I have no idea how they manage it. In comparison, I am a completely lazy bum.
2long, I don't think there are glaciers in the Upper Peninsula. I could be wrong, but I -think- all the snow melts at some point each summer. Usually about July 15. it snows again in August, but there is that brief period of clear ground...
2long, I agree with all you said about thinking it's romantic or passionate until you go through it.
I don't understand about the media attention most of the young singing "stars" are getting either, and I don't much like it as I have a 12 yo trying to copy them.
We belong to Spiritual Cinima and get some pretty good movies in the mail now. Thinking type movies and feel good movies.
I remember when I was little my Dad just hated Jane Fonda, with a passion. Of course he was in Nam for two years, was shot down and MIA for awhile, also of course had comrads who were POW's, so now I understand it. But back then I didn't, and we never mentioned her name in my house because it upset my parents so much.
Every generation has it's own challenges I guess.
JJ,
My daughter is reading a book at school where they have 7 years of rain followed by 1 hour of sunshine and then another 7 years of rain. Can you imagine?
It's a Harry Potter type book I think and think I'll try to read it after.
I'm reading Cormac McCarthy's No Country for Old Men. One of the characters received an undeserved military commendation after WWII. He left his doomed comrades behind to save himself. He's a good man, but that one decision:
Some part of me has never quit wishing I could go back, and I can't. I didn't know you could steal your own life. And I didn't know that it would bring you no more benefit than about anything else you might steal. I think I done the best with it I knew how but it still wasn't mine. It never has been.
This isn't a great book, but every sentence is a pleasure. Can't wait to read his new one, The Road.
"My daughter is reading a book at school where they have 7 years of rain followed by 1 hour of sunshine and then another 7 years of rain. Can you imagine?"
You know I live there, don't you? Three inches of rain yesterday alone.
I lived in Seattle for six miserable years. I would not have survived seven years of rain.
Great kid books: Susan Cooper's five-book series. Three of them won the Newberry. They are wonderfully written stories that interweave modern day (well, okay, 1970s) England with Arthurian legend.
Also, David Eddings two series (really one long series) of five books each: The Belgariad and The Mallorean. These are high fantasy with no relation to the "real" world. A farm boy named Garion becomes King of the West and triumphs (twice) over evil. He is led by his many-times-great grandfather and his many times great-aunt. The humor alone is worth the price of admission.
At long last, I finally moved my thread over on SYMC back into the public light. There are a few stories there that I probably haven't told here, if anyone's interested, as well as several that I stole from here once I was finally headed back toward putting that thread in public view. I'm not sure whether I'll get modded for posting a link to it, so I won't for the moment. It's on the eMarriage board, though, if anyone wants to peak.
I don't know how to say what I'm feeling, without worrying about it coming out wrong, or making things worse. I know some good jokes, though! I can even deprecate somebody else, for a change...
The nice thing about feelings...... well, they are how we feel.
You are afraid if others know your feelings we will think less of someone you have strong feelings about?
Or that we will think less of you?
You don't have to say anything, but......
Well........... it's not like we are married to you, and you have to share with us like a spouse ought to share with a spouse.
We do care how you feel though. Or if you are feeling up, or down. Just so you know.
The light was just right for some of the photos. Late afternoon in the red rock photos, and the setting sun in the mountain/tree photos. I took some before and after these that were not nearly as good, because the angle of the sun was different.
I did adjust saturation some, but it was kind of by accident. I was looking at them on an 8 year old monitor that has not been calibrated, and I said "what? these are so faded, I better bring them back to look real" - and so I did some adjustments on some of them. Then I got on my regular monitor, and realized I was going too far with some of the adjustments, and I backed off.
So, the light really was good in person, but some of them have been doctored too. When we were in the trees, AD said something like "What kind of trees are these, I can't believe how beautiful they are." It really was amazing in the setting sun. If either scene had been captured at noon, I doubt you would have liked them nearly as much.
I use a Pentax *istD digital SLR camera. It seems to do a pretty good job.
Beautiful, SS. Truly beautiful. I'm still determined to come visit you someday. And the invitation if you ever visit DC is always open. For pretty much everyone around the campfire, of course. AND the lurkers. T&L, for example.
Camping sounds fun, but my back does not do well on the ground. I would need a bed. But it would be fun. SS - sounds like a fabulous trip.
To the well read here - somewhere I saw someone post to someone else about what to tell the kids about the divorce - which is just the bare facts, and as little as possible. It talked about how even telling adult kids the dirty laundry can screw them up, and how important it is to DO NOT TELL THEM DETAILS. Does anyone remember where that was? I would like to copy it and send it XW. We are in agreement, but it was worded eloquently on the post I saw. About two or three weeks ago.
On another note - I heard XW getting ready unusually early this morn (5:30am) and wandered in to find out what was going on. She said she had a meeting downtown. At 6:45 I asked what meeting - she said it was the mediation meeting with the court mediator. I was never served, or heard anything of it. I threw it together, and made it to the meeting. We now have a drafted custody form, ready to be submitted in a hearing on Dec. 18. But I have not been notified of that, either.
It is kindof a sad day. I loathe the idea of not spending every evening with my kids.
I'm outraged by most everything I read on GQII. I'm sorry FAR.
I cannot get behind the idea that adult children should be protected from the truth about a parent who has damaged their family. I don't believe there is value in not knowing things about your own life.
Wow, GC. Who the heck is promoting that idea? Yuck. The adult children should know, in fact I think children should know age appropriate truth as necessary to the situation. As I told another BS with an OC situation, they WILL find out about the OC eventually. Either from the parents as it should be or from somebody else.
Took P to the library last weekend and I checked out "The Golden Compass". They had all three, if you can believe it...plan on reading it on my vacation and so thank you for the suggestion. Oh you meant for P to read it. LOL, well I am going to.
FAR,
I'm sorry for what you are experiencing right now. I don't know what else to say except it will get easier.
Hope everyone has a really nice Thanksgiving holiday!
Oh that reminds me -
Gray,
Remember that faulty, unreliable weather station we have here? I was listening to the radio the other day and this is the forcast the weatherman gave us (no lie) -
"Today will be cloudy all day with a 50% chance of...whatever."
Hey Faithers! Have a good time on your trip to see the dolphins!
We are having TD in GB. I'm really excited to go to the mall. I never get to go to the mall and GB seems like he really wants to go on Friday after TD.
I just can't believe my good fortune of meeting a man who likes to shop with me. He loves antiquing too!
He's been in New Orleans quite a bit this past month and when ever he is down on Bourbon Street he calls me and tells me about everything he sees, even in the stores. He even calls and lets me listen to some of the musicians as he passes by them.
And he brings presents! Perfume in beautiful hand blown glass bottles...oh I am so falling in love now. Not because of the presents, I mean because he is still so nice, and good, and sweet, and fun... and he loves me!
He stays at a place that is supposed to be haunted every time he goes (for many years now, and in the same room) How fun is that?
We are having dinner at MIL's house this year. She lives three and 1/2 blocks from us, so not a big deal.
She is the best MIL in the whole world. It's hard to say enough good about her.
Lets see though, that didn't answer the question. All of our children will be there except one. I can feel a party coming on.
Hi Faithful, have a good time. I am so glad you get to go. The trip itself is lots more important than the location.
It sure is nice to know both of you are doing well. I don't worry near so much now.
Except about Graycloud. When he's quiet, I wonder. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS
PS - and Appy - he's still thinking too much. And 2long - even though he's doing better. And J, who has very hard decisions to make, or else she can stay in limbo. Limbo is not nearly as much fun as happy ever after.
You sing well too - ever think of going pro? I'm sure you could be on the b-day singing staff at red lobster.
FAITHFUL FOLLOWER - WHERE'S THE TRIP REPORT ????? I'm sure you didn't think we would forget to ask? I CAN'T BELIEVE you would make us wait like this (LOL)
Hi Gray. Life is good?
Hi Weaver - you are doing so well. Your advice, care, and concern ROCKS !!!
J is quiet lately. She's grounded, (meaning she is on a solid foundation) so that's OK. I just always wonder.
Happy, Happy. For our date tonight, we're getting some of our shopping done. After dinner, of course.
Limbo is not nearly as much fun as happy ever after
Ain't that the truth. Sigh.
Today I have the mully grubs. (A family term meaning someone's grumpy and surly.) HoFS was in St. Louis for their little winter storm on Thursday and Friday. So he sat in the airport for ten extra hours yesterday. He made it back to Ohio, but after the last flight to DC. I couldn't ask him to make the trip today after his saga yesterday. So I'm surly, grumpy, and generally no fun to be around today.
Quote
J is quiet lately. She's grounded, (meaning she is on a solid foundation) so that's OK. I just always wonder.
I think that there are many days when I'm not entirely on solid ground. Today is one, though I know it's a passing phase.
I've been quiet mostly from being busy and being away. I took my first week-long vacation in four years over Thanksgiving. I went to Wisconsin to see my family and attend the feast in my dad's home town. (50 relatives at the VFW club. It's a lot of fun and the food is fantastically unhealthy.)
Friday we drove back to Chicago (3 hours) and I dropped DD off with my ex (ex's parents live there). Then flew to Cleveland to spend the weekend with HoFS and his boys. I could have gotten to Cleveland earlier, but HoFS asked me to wait for my scheduled flight. Then he ended up being late to the airport so that he could make sure the driver's ed instructor picked up the oldest son on time. I was, uhm, tired, cranky, and disconnected by the time he got there. By the time we finally had quiet time at bedtime, I was leaking tears all over him.
We had a good time on Saturday -- went to the Football Hall of Fame, shopping, and then out to eat. Going out to eat took all three boys asking their dad, and me finally saying, quietly, "I'm really hungry too. I know there's chicken at home, but can we please eat now?" I think HoFS wasn't fully enthusiastic about it. I don't know how to do that stuff very well yet.
The weekend kind of went downhill from there, though. HoFS' sons were getting stir-crazy after four days without seeing their friends, and the oldest finally had had enough and went to his mom's house. The middle one, who was particularly restive, continued his antics on Sunday. That in combination with some changed plans, finally led to middle son refusing to go to the airport and then melting down completely while he was at home by himself. It was really hard on HoFS to be in the car on the phone with his son listening to him losing it.
Hard on me, too, to want to support HoFS and want him to have time for his sons -- and yet also want to be with him and have time with him myself. It wasn't an easy good-bye.
And now we have this weekend. DD and I are here by ourselves -- HoFS is in Ohio, my brother is in Indianapolis, and my other brother has guests in town this weekend. So DD and I put up the Christmas lights and finished raking the leaves. We scrubbed the dining room and swept and vacuumed the floors.
Now she's taking her nap. When she gets up we'll go to Target to replace the strands of lights that have failed. We also need to put the red bows on the picket fence (we already put lit garlands on it).
Sometime in there we'll make supper and maybe we'll have a fire in the fireplace.
HoFS went home to some storm damage -- the Christmas lights we put up last week came down partway, and there were a lot of branches in his yard. So he cleaned up and repaired, and then he went to the Christmas parade and craft show. Tonight he's going to take his sons to buy chicken feed and spend the evening with them. Tomorrow he'll go talk to God and do some more of the things that he needs to do around there. He mentioned Christmas shopping. All good stuff to do.
And yet... he's not here. And I'm tired of being alone.
Hi SS et al. I keep writing stuff and not posting it. I feel more private as time passes.
I'm doing well. I do not like the holidays but I'm looking forward to next weekend which I'll spend with a friend in Tahoe.
2long, my talk got downgraded too. I'm a poster. Let's hoist one in SF one night. I haven't been to the Edinburgh Castle my last couple of times out...
Oh SS, caring much more than good advice...but sometimes that means just as much, doesn't it? They have the answers already they just need the courage to believe in them.
I believe so strongly in "brain storming" as a way to come up with ideas, but sometimes if you jump in and give whatever comes to your mind on this board the other posters can be so harsh with you that brain storming is not used often enough here.
The awesomeness of each and every human beings mind...well it's awesome, and I wish we gave each other the license and courage to use them more, in public, out in the open with others appreciating the awesomeness of every single one of them.
I think a person who posts because they are in crisis, or just stuck, should have the benefit of many different POV's.
Brain storming, why are so many people scared of others who have a different POV?
2long, I am almost done with "the Golden Compass" and I just love it! I think it puts me up into "advanced child" class. Couldn't be advanced when I was little, but I can be now, at least at the child reading level! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I am looking forward to reading the others now. It was a fun read, especially the little daemons the humans all have in the book, and the references to church and the soul and the church not wanting any advancements, or new thoughts. Oh and the way the daemons stopped changing when the children hit puberty, and then they were defined at that point forward as to who they were. Great book!
We've got 2 remind JL 2 set aside a beer evening. Not that swill in the barrels at the poster session (though I'll consume that stuff 2!). Real beer!
A friend of mine found a nice brew pub in Haight Ashbury, but you have 2 take a bus 2 get there. Consumes a long lunch, but it's worth it.
Then there's the warf for dinners. Trolley car rides and stuff.
During the blackout several years ago, they let everybody ride the trolleys for free. They're so crowded most of the rest of the time that it's really a crap shoot finding a seat.
Haw! Hey, Sierra's not bad and they always have that.
My friends and I have brewed an obscene amount of beer recently. We've got three beers on tap with a backup keg and two batches brewing. I'm glad it isn't at my house. If I weren't Stanley the Swimmer I'd have broken 200 by now.
If any swimmers are reading... did you ever suddenly lose your ability to turn? I did. I can't level off! I either go straight to the bottom (undershoot) or come bobbing out the top (overshoot). And the more I practice and think about it the worse it gets.
2long I hope you don't see my poster. It's a train wreck. A victim of committee thinking.
We still see the Northern Lights around here after a solar storm, or do you mean I am just too old now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
of DD's dolphin experience. She had the best time and the sheer joy on her face is priceless. We had a lovely time. My H now admits we CAN do this family vacation thing without too much hassle. DS started not feeling well toward the end. Turned out he was coming down with chicken pox. Tuesday night he broke out. He is fine now.
It looks like she is having so much fun. I have a DD who would like to do that.
I'm glad this vacation was a good experience for you. I want to encourage you to start planning for next year. I get so excited when people have good times - when it had been pretty bad only a year before.
Now, I want to see you do a couple only trip. I know that will be difficult, but I want to see it.
I think we're doing the inside passage to Alaska (cruise) next summer for our 30th. You should start looking for what YOU are going to do.
I think it's about time.
BTW, I realize all the reasons it will be difficult. It's still worth it.
Thanks for re-posting your pics. I am so happy for you guys.
I saw the northern lights often when I lived in Canada. Only seen them one time where I live now, but it was quite something.
Give P a drum set, or trumpet, drum set, or trumpet. I just can't decide. Maybe both?
Ha !! I've got it. Two drum sets, then she can have a friend over to play with her.
Is it cold yet Weaver?
I know Gray knows about cold, but I don't think 2long even knows what the word means. He lives where you can grow citrus trees.
Gray, You have been so quiet lately, that almost anything from you sounds good.
Are these down days any thing that you can talk about?
Do the good days in between make up for the down? Or are there too many down ones?
How is C4Love doing? I was thinking about her mother the other day, and wondering how come we haven't heard from her in a while. Her mom stayed with us for a week or so a while back.
Just kind of thinking and typing. I should probably get back to work.
Hi J. Buy yourself a lightening rod - that should help.
My W did the Alaska cruise with her mom and sisters two years ago. They had a blast. When she came home she said "it was fun, but I just kept wishing you were there with me."
Lets see, I got married when I was 21, and this march will be 30 years, so that means..............
Yep, I'm that old. It doesn't seem like I'm that much older from year to year, but I noticed when I got bucked off a horse that it hurt more than it did when I was 17. LOL.
At least the horse didn't kick me.
I read what I wrote again, and It was kind of vague. I didn't mean your 30th was coming up fast, I meant you need to go on a trip with just you and your H. You probably understood, but I wanted to make sure. 4 days is good. A week is better. Last March we did 10 days, and it seemed like heaven. Highly recommended.
We can send info on the cruise we are doing if you're interested. It's not that much money as cruises go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
You probably know by now that I like doing things with my family. Some years it's not far, and not expensive, but we always have fun.
When our married children come by, they often ask "Are we doing to Whitney Pockets again in March?" Or "What's the next campout we are doing, and when?"
It's nice that they ask - you can guess what it means to them.
That's what you can create for your children.
I think Husband, and Wife time is just as important. The good replaces the bad. It seems to make all the difference.
Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind Memories, sweetened through the ages just like wine
Quiet thoughts come floating down And settle softly to the ground Like golden autumn leaves around my feet I touched them and they burst apart with sweet memories, Sweet memories
Of holding hands and red bouquets And twilight trimmed in purple haze And laughing eyes and simple ways And quiet nights and gentle days with you
Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind Memories, sweetened through the ages just like wine, Memories, memories, sweet memories
Faith, she is getting to be so pretty...and so grown up!
Remember when we talked about our DD's and they had both put on weight, and we worried for their self-esteem and the cruelty of other children? Well I don't think you need to worry about that anymore. Paige is really slimming down too. She is back in cheerleading and volunteering at our no kill animal shelter. She is a good worker there and I couldn't be happier with that. Although I am having some problems with her as she has gotten in with a bad crowd and she skipped school. I called the school and reported it myself and she had to do an inschool detention. She is a good kid but somewhat of a follower I'm afraid. I have to be on her all the time.
SS, yes it is cold here. 7 below this morning and we have had a lot of lake effect snow. Heater went out in my old Blazer and I thought we would freeze to death just driving home from P's school. Someone told me to tap on the motor with a hammer and see if that did the trick. It did. YAY!
You are so very fortunate to have your family intact. And your children are so fortunate. I wonder if people realize just how fortunate they are when they have their families together still.
2long, your children are very fortunate as well. I am so happy for you and your wife, that it looks like you will make it.
I have led a very wild lifestyle for most of my life, and the biggest regret of my life I think is not marrying young and having a whole slew of kids.
I'm happy, but I know a different kind of life was possible for me, and I blew it. Just didn't know any better how much I would end up longing for a family.
I have P, but being a single mom is a hard road to travel.
Well, there is always my next lifetime! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I wish this for Gray as well, and Gray you are so young it is still possible for you, so don't dispair and please don't give up. Just keep dreaming and visualizing what you want to be in the end, and you will be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, my older DS was a follower. I had to put him in a tiny private school for jr/sr high school. No way I could trust him to make good decisions in a public school. He is 23 and doing great now. Good going having P volunteer at a shelter. Volunteer work is good for the soul.
Yeah, DD will be 14 Christmas day! She is an awesome kid, though quite hormonal <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
I had to put him in a tiny private school for jr/sr high school.
Faith,
Do you think this is what turned him around? Seems like you could get into just as much trouble in a private school. Our school here is very small, and we have no private schools at the junior/high levels.
I told P's dad that if she continued down this path I would send her to live with him.
That would dang near break my heart but if it means she will get straightened around I will do it.
I'll see how the rest of this semester goes though before I get too distressed.
Weaver, our public schools while not huge are big and the teachers/administrators have their hands full. My DS's private school every teacher/administrator knew the name of each child. The children were required to stand when any adult entered the classroom AND notes were sent home for any grade (homework, quiz, test) below 80 percent. He needed that. During my younger DS critical phase of illness older DS started to slip in school. I had phone convos with his teachers and they really helped him through the tough time. Plus the kids he met there with the exception of one were awesome. Very involved parents and nice kids. Made a huge difference.
Hi there, I am inviting JustJ to read my post, I am a lesbian BS and it was suggested that you may have some valuable advice for me. I am fairly new here and my post is on GQII. titled intermittent fog/withdrawal. thanks for any help you can offer.
Okay, I wrote to FightingBack and just took the time to kick back and read through the rest of the posts since I've been away.
Gents, how was the meeting? I sorta wish I were still in that crowd. Your meetings happen less often than mine do, for one thing. I finally sent my boss my meeting schedule and asked for help. 13 meetings, each lasting more than an hour, is too many for one week. And I've been doing it for two months straight at this point. They're not repetitive, either. Those 13 meetings are for 10 separate projects. No wonder I'm tired.
SS, you asked a really good question about my options and HoFS. I have thought about them, but have not fully discussed them with HoFS himself, so I don't want to post everything that I've thought quite yet.
I don't daydream like I used to, though, that I know. Somewhere in the tantrum about seeing my daydreams used in commercials on TV, a lot of my daydreams melted into a much more ... hard edged? Pessimistic? I'm not sure what it is. But something shifted and I'm not a starry-eyed teenager anymore. More like a hollow-eyed 40 year old who desperately needs a nap.
There is still love here. And yet that feels grittier, too. Unless that's just the sand in my eyes. But now I look at the love from the perspective of "how do we keep this alive" and "wow, weekends with kids really blow the romance out of the water quickly."
And this is with kids whose company I genuinely enjoy. I wonder what it would be like if I didn't like them. Sheesh.
So anyway. I'm tired. I've been working for almost 12 hours today and there are still two major... three major... drat. A lot of major things left to do. So it's time for me to stop blowing off and get some of it done.
We got engaged Saturday night after we had our Christmas with his DD (22 yo) and mine. He proposed in front of the girls (they knew in advance) as we were opening gifts.
I started bawling, and then he started bawling and the girls just laughed.
He popped a bottle of Moet (sp) and we celebrated after with some of his family who stopped by. (they all knew too before I did).
We had the best weekend with our DD's. We had been telling them how tight things were and so the night before we wrapped up things like a loaf of bread, some rotten potatoes, and old 2006 calendare (put a sticky which said "regift" on it", some old Marde Gras beads, etc and we wrapped them really, really nice.
Anyway I was so engrossed in looking at the girls faces (priceless) as they opened their gifts, he caught me completely off guard. He was on the floor passing out the gifts when all of a sudden he cried out in pain that he had popped his back. Then he crawled over to me, proposed and gave me the ring. Stupid me, I still thought he hurt his back, so I kept trying to get him to give me his hand so I could help him up.
So in June, P and I will move to 'sconie. She is very excited and happy too, at least she seems to be.
You know Appy, if I didn't think you old guys would drink all the beer I might consider it.
You have been writing awesome posts Appy! Just awesome! I loved the one to WB about adventures. You and Orchid should each have your own radio show, or write a book or something. Brilliant, the both of you.
I call GB Huck Finn, or Huckleberry all the time. In fact I got him the complete Adventures of Huckleberry Finn (sp) on audio for Christmas.
His favorite places in the world? The theme parks at Disneyworld and New Orleans (a place he says is both strange and wonderful).
We got engaged Saturday night after we had our Christmas with his DD (22 yo) and mine. He proposed in front of the girls (they knew in advance) as we were opening gifts.
I started bawling, and then he started bawling and the girls just laughed.
I am sitting here bawling now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> Weaver! I am soooooooo thrilled for you. Could not have happened to a better person. Love you bunches, girlie!
Appy, I like your idea. Perhaps we all need to set a time to raise a toast to our friend Weaver.
I guess we are all moving on, aren't we? This thread has dropped off and my friend Appy says he is doing well. That makes me smile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I am happily recovering both myself and my marriage.
Now if we could just get GC to see what a catch he is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, you have my email addy still? I don't check into MB very often any more. Too much pain here.
Faith, you are one of the most beautiful,caring people on this forum. And yes, I have your email addy still. I only have this addy left and I am not sure if it is the one you have - ***edit**** I am so glad you are becoming happy again. It's been a long time, I know.
I hope you have such a good Christmas with your kids and H! I'm sorry though, that you won't have snow. That bites.
Veaver - what absolutely fantastic news. What a magical Xmas gift for you and your families - I am truly delighted for you. His family are blessed to have such a lovely lady enter their lives. Ooh, my eyes have gone a bit blurry - must be the computer screen. TT
Heck JJ, I will send her MY copy of Snarch's book to read on her honeymoon with her sweetie.
Weaver, I would sooo love to dance at your wedding. Yes, I have that addy. Let's stay in touch. Now Appy wipe away those tears. GC, LOL you said it best my friend.
Thank you everybody for your support and best wishes. SS said right from the getgo that he had a good feeling about this one, and so did I.
He was in Biloxi MS a couple of weeks ago on business and got stuck there for the weekend, not having anything to do he pulled his truck over by some smashed up houses and asked a man standing outside who needed help on their house for the weekend. The man told him about an old guy with no money, no family and no insurance down the street who needed help...still living in a camper trailer as a lot of them still are. A tree had fallen on his house during Katrina and while they had removed the tree and fixed the roof the front of the house and the windows were bowing out. So GB spent the whole weekend and his own money working on this house for this old man. He said after he got done the man wouldn't stop hugging him.
He is a good person, a spiritual person who cares about the universe and the people in it!
TT, Kimmy and JJ...it is sooooo nice to see you at the fire. It's been awhile.
Well I'm off for 2 weeks so need to work today. Darn it!
Have a Merry Christmas everyone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I may not be around much in the next few days, so if I don't make it back in time, Merry Christmas everyone! I hope you all have a wonnnnnderful time.
Me? I've got a tree, presents, family, and someone else cooking dinner for me. Life is good. HoFS is shopping somewhere in Ohio. His answer to the question of where? "A store." Oooooookay, I won't ask questions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
And by the way, am I the only person who finds this thread partly by the number of stars it has? Took me ages to find it this time because it's now two stars instead of three. (Apparently someone doesn't like campfires? Or beer? *sigh* Sorry 'bout that, people!)
God rest ye merry, gentlemen Let nothing you dismay Remember, Christ, our Saviour Was born on Christmas day To save us all from Satan's power When we were gone astray O tidings of comfort and joy, Comfort and joy O tidings of comfort and joy
In Bethlehem, in Israel, This blessed Babe was born And laid within a manger Upon this blessed morn The which His Mother Mary Did nothing take in scorn O tidings of comfort and joy, Comfort and joy O tidings of comfort and joy
From God our Heavenly Father A blessed Angel came; And unto certain Shepherds Brought tidings of the same: How that in Bethlehem was born The Son of God by Name. O tidings of comfort and joy, Comfort and joy O tidings of comfort and joy
"Fear not then," said the Angel, "Let nothing you affright, This day is born a Saviour Of a pure Virgin bright, To free all those who trust in Him From Satan's power and might." O tidings of comfort and joy, Comfort and joy O tidings of comfort and joy
The shepherds at those tidings Rejoiced much in mind, And left their flocks a-feeding In tempest, storm and wind: And went to Bethlehem straightway The Son of God to find. O tidings of comfort and joy, Comfort and joy O tidings of comfort and joy
And when they came to Bethlehem Where our dear Saviour lay, They found Him in a manger, Where oxen feed on hay; His Mother Mary kneeling down, Unto the Lord did pray. O tidings of comfort and joy, Comfort and joy O tidings of comfort and joy
Now to the Lord sing praises, All you within this place, And with true love and brotherhood Each other now embrace; This holy tide of Christmas All other doth deface. O tidings of comfort and joy, Comfort and joy O tidings of comfort and joy
SS, A while back you gave me some real solid advice on my seperation from my W, and my recovery from abusive behavior. In another thred in this forum (thread title was I need some help...)..
So? How was Christmas for everyone? I got some really nice presents, I must say. DD had a blast with all the toys and helping everyone open presents. She and I have both had very bad colds and we're both still coughing, but we had fun anyway.
I'll post a long update sometime next week; haven't got the time right now. It's been a fun time, though!
Hi Faithful, I hope things are good at your house. It has been so good to see the progress this fall.
The difficulties will continue, but if you can face them as a couple, it will make all the difference in the world.
J, We had most of the family over for Christmas eve dinner. It was plain - home made soup. We did sing, and we laughed a lot, and we went to bed early - before midnight. I kind of liked it. (past years have been hectic.)
The twins let us sleep in until 8 on Christmas morning. What a nice gift. I know they were awake earlier, but they didn't come upstairs and jump on us and try to get us up like they used to do. 13 is such a nice age in girls.
We got up and went through the ritual - each person gets a gift to open, we watch, then go to the next. We start with the youngest this time, last time it was the oldest.
Kids and grandkids started arriving about 9. We had breakfast - BIG - at 10:30 or so. Pancakes, hashbrowns, eggs, and so on, and so on. I cooked, and did dishes and let W play with grand kids.
We had lots of good conversations, played games, and people came and went until late evening. It's always nice to spend time with people you love.
Dinner was Mexican food - home made chili verde - from peppers we grew this year. Hot, but not too hot. Chips, and salsa, beans.......... it was good also. Holiday food is fun, because we have more time to eat, and talk.
Change topic -
I want to know what Gray is writing about then deleting.
Also want to know if 2long got more high tops for Christmas.
Christmas eve. What did we have Christmas eve? Dear me, I don't recall. It's something of a blur. I'd best do my update before I forget everything! Maybe if I do it chronologically.
Let me try to make it to Christmas Day, anyway. The rest of the time will have to be a later update.
My parents arrived on Wednesday afternoon before Christmas. DD and I got home before them and we were both marginally healthy at that point. The cold and cough we caught is really tenacious. Two weeks after she started, DD is -still- coughing. And so am I. And so is my ex. HoFS saw DD when she was the sickest a few weeks ago, but seems to have avoided the worst of it.
Anyway, so my parents arrived. As he often does when they arrive, dad immediately got ready to go to the grocery store. He takes my sister along. This time, DD wanted to go, too. It's the first time she's ever gone anywhere with him.
They arrived back at the house rather frazzled. Dad's hair was a little wild and DD's entire existence was wired into the overhead. Apparently my sister (who is mentally handicapped and who has a mental age about the same as DD's) and DD were fussing at each other all the way through the store. And DD did her darndest to convince dad that she needed EVERYTHING in the store. She came home with a new toothbrush, new toothpaste, Disney Princesses Chapstick, frosted miniwheats, and Tostitoes.
No wonder dad looked a little stressed....
While they were out, mom and I walked around the neighborhood and looked at various sidewalks that have been replaced in the last few years. I need to have mine done, so we were looking to see what looks good and appears to be well done. I found a style I like, though mom doesn't like it as much. That's all right -- it'll give her something to complain about for the next 20 years.
*sigh*
When my brother called to say he would arrive at the Metro station in a few minutes, DD wanted to go with dad to get him, so off they went again. Mom and I made supper while they were gone. Meat sauce with linguini. It was pretty good. We also lit the Hannukah candles. That night, if I remember right, DD got a book called "Rachel's Library." And my brother's girlfriend got her presents that night (candles and a necklace) because she was leaving the next day to go home to her family. She seemed quite stunned to have gotten them.
Wednesday night, HoFS took his boys to see Mannheim Steamroller. Last year he and I went to a concert, a present from me to him. This year there weren’t any shows at a time when we’d be together, so he took his boys. It’s a good thing I had something fun to do that evening. I really envied those boys, let me tell you!
Thursday I took DD to school and then ran around and finished the last of my shopping -- plus shopping for several family members. I got gift cards on behalf of my parents, bought ties for my mom to give my dad (I guess I do better with his coloring than she does), found sugar-free chocolate for mom's stocking, and picked up a Trader Joe's gift card for my brother to give my cousin. We shop like this a lot in my family, and then pay each other back after the holidays.
The afternoon was mostly a nap for me and DD. I don't recall much else going on, except maybe work and chatting with HoFS.
Oh, wait, I do remember. That night's Hannukah present was The Little Mermaid and DD and I sat down to watch it. My dad brought me a rum&coke (he makes everyone drinks each evening) and I sat with it while DD watched the movie on my lap. There's a scary part that she needs a grownup for. As I sat there, I was quite happy that my family was around me, even though there was a lot of noise and confusion. I felt as though I was an island of quiet in a sea of noise. And somehow in that moment, the thought of HoFS came to me, and I was suddenly worried that he'd want to take me away from my family, separate me from them somehow. My ex and I kept quite separate from our families, and my parents have said several times that they're glad to have me back. Perhaps I was reminded of that.
That blossomed into a real panic about losing my independence if I made a commitment to HoFS. It felt as though swords or bars were coming down all around me, cold walls slicing down through my warm and boisterous family life. It really scared me badly. I talked to HoFS about it a little that night, starting with a text message. “Remind me to talk to you about loss of independence later. How’s the shopping going?”
HoFS was, you see, out desperately trying to finish his shopping and having a terrible time finding several of the things he wanted to get.
Being a wise man, he called rather than sending a text back. We could only chat a little because of the noise, and I wasn’t sure I wanted to tell him all that I was feeling just then anyway. It was leading me to a really strong RUNAWAYRUNAWAY reaction. He said that it made him start thinking, but then he said, “No, no. Like Yoda says. Do not think. Only DO. I’ll keep on doing what I’m doing and we’ll see how it turns out.”
J was, at this point, looking for a place to hide.
A little later in the evening, he sent a text message. “I love you :-) walk with me. Help me tie up a dream.”
Which made me look at him –very- suspiciously. He dropped the subject with an enigmatic smile. (Which I could see even when he didn’t reply to the text message about it, darn him!)
And DD was coughing a lot that night. So I had a terrible time getting a good night’s sleep. Instead, I lay in my bed and let the waves of fear and “run away!” and all of that stuff wash over me. I just listened to it, waiting to hear what it meant. I don’t know what HoFS could tell during that time. I was sick as a dog, too, so I suspect it was all jumbled up together.
Friday was interesting. After I dropped DD off at school I ran back down to the NIH campus for a series of meetings. The first one was supposed to be at 10am, but most of the people who needed to be there didn't show up. The two who were there were brand new and had no idea what we were supposed to be doing. So I sent the supporting cast home (five people from outside the area we're studying) and spent two hours training the new folks. I had had the presence of mind to pick up some tea and cough drops before I got there, so talking for two hours wasn't that bad. At the time, I thought I was almost over the darned cold.
After that, I went to the campus work center and worked for several hours. There was a lot I wanted to get done before the holiday and family took my attention. And there was a good bit of quiet listening to the fear and freaked-out feelings running through my head. What do I do about HoFS? What have I gotten myself into?
Then I got in my car, intending to head to downtown Bethesda (about a mile) to the bank and then go home (about a mile back). It took more than an hour to do it all, and I was in the bank for only about two minutes. Traffic in DC is sometimes insane, and that was one of those times.
Even so, I made it home long before the rest of the family and long before our dinner guest was to arrive. That night we had my real estate agent over. She's the one who helped find this house and we've stayed in touch the last four years. Since my parents and my brother are now looking in this area, we invited her over to chat about it and see what she could do. Most of the time, she regaled us with stories about her travels and accomplishments. She's been to all seven continents and around the world twice and her stories are quite amazing.
We started the evening with an adventure of our own. My brother started a fire in the fireplace after carefully shifting the flue position -- from open to closed. (My fault that it was still open two weeks after our last fire.) I'd tossed some branches from the Christmas tree into the fireplace to serve as kindling, so the fire flamed up HOT and BIG right away.
We completely filled the house with smoke, so much so that you couldn't actually see the top of the Christmas tree. It was quite extraordinary and took a good 15 minutes to clear it all out again, all the windows open, all the fans on, and the smoke detectors shrieking all the way.
It was a good meal when we finally sat down to eat. Chicken with mushrooms and artichoke hearts, served over brown rice. We had veggies on the side and everyone drank a good bit of wine. Somewhere in there, there was enough discussion of real estate to make it worthwhile. Oh, and she brought over a gift for us. Remember it -- it shows up perfectly on Christmas.
I went to bed fairly late, after sitting on the couch sleepy for a long while. I'd been lightheaded and felt odd for much of the day, but attributed it to the cold affecting my ears or something. When I couldn't get warm that evening, though, I finally thought to take my temperature. Sure enough, a bit of fever. It's been so long since I had it that I didn't even remember what it felt like.
Somewhere along in there, HoFS picked up his kids and headed for Indiana to see his family. I think me missed me on that long drive. He called once at the very beginning of the evening. I had hoped to talk to him a little, but couldn’t because our guest had already arrived. And the rest of the evening was filled with smoke and chat and laughter. It wasn’t until very late that we talked again. And I fell asleep waiting for him to call back. I didn’t wake up until 20 minutes later. That almost never happens. And the thoughts of HoFS continued, even in my drugged and feverish state.
Saturday my entire family spent shopping. DD and I didn't -- we were both still pretty sick. So we took a long nap and had a quiet day while everyone else was out. My brother made pizza that night, I think. (Unless that was Christmas eve? Could've been.) And my cousin arrived that day. She's as close as a sibling and it was good to see her. We think a lot alike.
I coughed and coughed that night, and so did DD. We were pretty miserable. So of course we were up well before 8am on Christmas Eve. We made our way downstairs and began our baking. Cranberry orange bread and cookie dough, with DD loving every minute of it. She did really well with the quick bread; it was easy and mostly just required measuring and stirring before pouring it into the bread pan. The cookie dough took longer and wasn't as interesting, but we made it through.
In the afternoon, DD's great aunt came by for a visit. She's actually my ex's aunt, but there's a family rift there. So she comes over to my house when she wants to see DD. They had a fantastic time. First there were more Hannukah presents and a birthday present for DD, and then they rolled out and baked the cookie dough. It was hilariously funny. I learned a little about my ex's family that I hadn't known before (my ex's dad has heart trouble, a cousin's wife is battling breast cancer) and mostly we just had fun.
Everyone in my family seemed to enjoy having her over. Well, as much as they could. My dad and brothers disappeared early in the day and didn’t show up again until very late, and my mom spent the entire day locked in the guest room wrapping presents. I was so glad that I had finished everything already! I truly don’t miss the days of those last-minute races to get things done.
After her great aunt left, DD got her nap and then... dear me, why can't I remember what we had for supper on Christmas eve? Maybe that was the pizza. It was really good pizza, if it was. After dinner, most of us went to drive through a state park near here that has many, many Christmas decorations. DD didn’t want to go at first – she wanted to go to a place where she could walk instead of ride. By the time we got there, though, she was thrilled. Moving tin soldiers, a gingerbread man who cartwheels over the road, a polar bear waving at us, Santa in his sleigh. She loved it. And it was after 10pm before we left.
We went home to a host of activities that needed to be completed. I started the frosting for the cookies we’d baked earlier. Mom grabbed DD to put together my gift bag (I had all the materials ready; they just needed to assemble it). DD went upstairs to put on her “Cinderella” dress. She gets to help with Santa stuff even though she’s so young, and she was very frustrated that I didn’t have a Santa costume for her to wear while she was doing it. *sigh* In any case, we each put up our stockings and then decorated a cookie for the Santa plate. Then we all scattered to different parts of the house to start on our Santa duties. Everyone participates in this part – stocking stuffers come from all over the place and rarely does anyone know all of the contents of any stocking. Santa’s magic is thus preserved – no one can claim to “be” Santa, and yet we all are.
DD put the oranges in the tips of the stockings, and she helped me put the Godiva chocolates in. She really liked the little chocolate Santas in particular. Then we did the candy canes and her part was done. I put her to bed in the family room with my sister after we read “Twas the Night Before Christmas.”
Then I went on with my own Santa duties – adding more to the stockings and getting out the Santa toys for DD. Some of those came from my shopping, some from my mom’s shopping. No matter which it was, though, there was enough there that any kid would’ve been happy.
HoFS was on a similar course. He’d spent a little time with his uncle early in the day and the driven back to Ohio in the afternoon. They’d gone to late mass with his boys and then did his own Santa work, but was still done before me. I went to bed about 1am and began my nightly round of coughing. (Oh, and yes, DD and I had both been taking children’s Nyquil for days at this point.) I only sort of remember saying good night that night. Less than 15 minutes later, DD crawled into bed with me and we fell asleep still coughing.
It’s an incredibly cozy thing, falling asleep with her. I’ve done it many times in the last week or so, and each time I notice how much I like it. Well, okay, except when she’s kicking me in the side, which she does some of the time. Interestingly enough, when I mentioned it to her and said it was time for her to sleep somewhere else more often, she stopped kicking me. I didn’t know she had enough conscious control to do that.
We woke up at 8:30, a blessedly long sleep for both of us, though I’d had to sit DD up and have her drink water to get her to stop coughing several times. She began the day by saying to me, “Is Mommy coming to get me today?” No, sweetie, it’s Christmas and you’re spending the day here. “But I want Mommy to see my little kitty cat!” The one that her aunt had given her the day before. “Well, maybe you could ask Mommy to stop by and look at it?” So at 8:34 on Christmas morning, she was on the phone to my ex.
The thing is, my ex is Jewish and is an Israeli folkdancer. She loves to dance – and each year there are dance marathons all over the country on Christmas Eve. Marathons that begin at 9pm and last until 6am… or 8am. Or later.
So I knew, when I heard the exhausted tone in my ex’s voice that she’d been dancing most of the night. And yet she woke up and spoke cheerfully to our daughter. She couldn’t come over right away because she wasn’t in Maryland (a surprise to me, but that’s all right); she would come over later in the day to see what DD wanted to show her. DD didn’t tell her what it was – she wanted it to be a surprise.
And here I will have to stop, though I haven’t made it all the way through Christmas yet. Boy, all this writing and I’m still a week behind. There’s much more to come.
Oh, and she brought over a gift for us. Remember it -- it shows up perfectly on Christmas.
That's a sneaky writer's trick J.
SS, I won't use this forum as some public therapy tool, is why I frequently write things but don't post them. I'm not anonymous. Any number of people who know me could read this forum. So as for those posts... you could say it's an exercise in organization. Like writing a letter to someone then throwing it away.
Last night I saw The Painted Veil. I've got to read that book. The picture is fantastic. Garbo Schmarbo.
Well, yes it is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
So, to continue my story. DD was on the phone with my sleep-deprived ex. That and our morning snuggle and chat kept us in bed until 9am, and then we headed downstairs. DD went before me, but rather than heading for the living room, she headed toward the family room and my sister. And there she got wrapped up in watching her “Oswald” videos. She stayed there for more than 90 minutes, amazingly enough, allowing all the very sleep grownups to get some well-deserved rest. I talked to HoFS while she was watching – he had to finish Christmas with his boys by 9am so they could go over to their mom’s house. By the time he and I talked, he was wrapping the last of the presents he was bringing to our house.
Because, of course, he was about to drive six hours to spend the rest of Christmas week with us, you know.
Somewhere along the way I had to make coffee and he had to take a shower, so we stopped chatting and I went on with my morning. In the back of my head, there was still the thought that I was completely freaked out. And yet he sounded so calm, so loving. Like a balm to my rather panicked soul – a sea anchor in a gale force wind.
My cousin dragged herself out of bed first of the rest of the adults. (My dad and sister, always early risers, had been up since the crack of dawn.) Then my mom arrived about the time I finished brewing the coffee. She took DD downstairs to rouse the “boys.” My brothers, who are 30 and 23 respectively, should probably not be called boys at their age. Nonetheless, there you have it. Boys. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
After a few more attempts (but fewer than in past years), they made it upstairs and the pouring of coffee began. We all sat down to chat a bit and finally got around to getting our stockings long after it would have been even a few years ago. I’m guessing DD won’t let us wait that long next year, but we’ll see.
In any case, the opening of stockings got some chocolate into all of us, and there was much fun. Oh, yes, that’s the other thing we waited for. My cousin made scones, so we waited until they were in the oven before getting the stockings.
And 20 minutes later, of course, the scones were done and we had to take a break to eat. We’d opened a few presents by then, and DD attached herself to the one my realtor brought over. She wouldn’t let it go, so she got to take it to the table with her, with a promise that she could open it there. Which she did as I was deciding between a currant scone and one with cranberries in it. (Have I mentioned that I love my cousin? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)
Lo and behold, the gift was a sampler set of Knotts Berry Farm jams and preserves. Perfect! I’m still not sure whether the raspberry or blackberry was better. They were both very good, though. And we served English Breakfast tea in the Moss Rose china teapot. That’s a teapot that my grandmother owned and then was passed down to my aunt. From there it made its way to my cousin and then to me. I have a house, you see, and she has a studio the size of my living room. So I have all the furniture and china and silver and other random things that have been passed down along that line. Someday I hope to give it all back. I have a great time re-gifting stuff to my cousins out of that stash. This year, I think, it will be their baby cups and spoons…
Eventually we all headed back to the living room for more opening of presents. There were many pairs of socks and shoes this year – I guess we all needed them. DD wanted to help with each present … except when she was focused on getting her own toys out to play with. I think she liked the doll clothes best at the first glance.
HoFS called at a little after 1pm and said that he wasn’t nearly as far along on his trip as either of us wanted him to be. He was just passing through Akron, about an hour from his house. I was disappointed, and yet that feeling of uncertainty and fear also meant that I wasn’t as upset as I might otherwise have been. I just said that I was glad he was on his way – and that we might not wait dinner on him, depending on how late he ended up being.
Poor man. Dinner is important to him, and looking back on it, it wasn’t very kind to tell him that he might miss Christmas dinner. *sigh* He works hard at it, HoFS does, and I don’t give him nearly enough credit.
I think we finished opening presents sometime around 2:30pm. There was no hurry, except in DD’s mind, and not much else that needed to be done. At the last, when all the presents were open, DD was ready to watch some more video. Since she had a low-grade fever by then (Remember the cold? It’d only been two weeks at that point. Great time to get a fever…), she didn’t have a ton of energy left. So we took her new Lady & the Tramp DVD in the family room and popped it in. She wanted me to sit on the sofa with her, so I curled up and dozed for much of the movie. I was still sick, too, anyway. The “bella noce” song ran through my head for much of the rest of the day.
There was no way DD was going to take a nap that day. We tried for about ten minutes after the movie, but it just wasn’t going to happen. So I took her back downstairs and she watched it through again. By then it was after 5pm and I really wanted to take a shower. Around me, there was much cooking – my younger brother and my mom, mainly – and a lot of cleanup activity. The older brother went back to bed and slept for 4 more hours, and my cousin continued working on an e-card she’d been working on animating. It’s amazing how long those little cards take to design. She must’ve put 30 hours into it over the course of a few days.
So anyway, through all that, I climbed into the shower later than I should have. HoFS called just as I was ready to turn off the water. (For him, I’ll get out of the shower. Not for many other people!) He said he was nearing Frederick and expected to be there in 45 minutes or so. Not late for supper after all!
While I was talking to him, my ex called. I didn’t pick up, so she called the house phone. Soon there were calls up the stairway. She’s only a couple minutes away, she’ll be here soon. As I stood there dripping wet in a towel, the irony of it all was unmistakable. Okay, I said. I’ll get dressed in a jiffy.
Which I did and it’s a good thing. I managed to be all the way dressed and finishing my hair when the doorbell rang. DD raced for my ex and dragged her upstairs to see the kitty, then downstairs to see the doll clothes and the new dolls, then over to see the new potholder maker (which must’ve made my ex laugh, as she remembers the last time I got one of those), and then back to the living room to go through the box of dolls of my cousin’s that had been living in the attic.
Through it all, my ex had a somewhat bemused expression on her face. She spent years joining my family for Christmas. She knows the chaos and the fun, the chocolate and the part about not getting dressed all day. I don’t know whether she misses it – it looked more like she just thought it was odd that our daughter now gets to do and see those things.
As they were sitting in the living room with my cousin, I suddenly knew HoFS was nearby. So I sent him a text letting him know that my ex would probably still be there when he arrived. I didn’t see his response until later. It said, “Well then, I’d better come inside.” Instead, I just heard him opening the door.
Finally, finally, finally, he was there. Filling my doorway and my sight, jeans and a shirt, black cowboy hat keeping the rain off of his head. His eyes, those wonderful eyes with the warmth of the sun in them. Sweeping away fear, sweeping away doubt, grounding me with a gentle smile and a touch on the cheek. And then I was in his arms and noticing that it must be raining pretty hard because his sweatshirt was all wet… and then I wasn’t noticing anything at all except his kiss and his warmth and his solid arms around me.
And there I will pause again, and pick up the story in my next post. Which is already written; it’s just that this is a nice place to pause. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Righto! So, picking up the story where we left off...
No one else came to greet him right away – they gave us time and space to have those few seconds of precious reconnection. And then I was self-conscious. My ex and my daughter were in the next room, my parents in the kitchen. Eek!
So I pulled him inside and took his coat and hat. He came in the living room and sat down when DD wanted to show me more of the dolls she’d found. So I went and looked and admired and then sat down next to him. We touched hands, and I was lost again in warmth and happiness. I must’ve looked like someone poured calming potion directly down my spine, and I didn’t even mind the oddness of HoFS, my whole family, my ex, and my daughter all in one place and time.
My ex left soon afterward, having seen all that needed to be seen. DD tried various ploys to get her to stay, and in some ways I was sad to see her go. My world was whole for a moment, in some strange way. DD’s world was as close to whole as it ever gets for that hour or so that my ex was there. (Not entirely, since my ex’s husband wasn’t there, but as close as it gets.) It doesn’t happen all that often that I long for that wholeness anymore, but it still shows up in bits and pieces, particularly this time of year.
After she left, we worked our way through dinner. What’d we have… oh yes! Ham with a pineapple bourbon glaze that my brother made. Butternut squash and sweet potatoes that my mom did. Canned peas (only mom loves those, but once a year we have them…), raw veggies, and various other bits and pieces that I no longer remember. DD was in seventh heaven with so many people that she enjoys there (which means she shouted at the top of her lungs all the way through dinner). What I remember most clearly was the moment that HoFS caught my hand and met my eyes and the entire world faded away.
After supper, there was much cleaning up to do. I’d picked out the good china for dinner (the one decision I made the entire weekend) and that meant washing it all by hand. No one seemed to mind much.
Then there was another round of opening presents – the ones HoFS brought and the ones we had for him. He did very well with the gifts he gave – gift cards for my brothers, a handmade serving tray for my parents (from a place near his house), Candyland and a couple of books for DD. For me, there was a book, a Chris Botti CD, and a Starbucks gift card. What book? I knew you’d ask. It was 1000 Places to See Before You Die: A Traveler’s Life List.
It may surprise you to know that I don’t much enjoy vacation travel, but HoFS knows it very well. My idea of a good vacation is a warm climate, a beach, a book, and the ability to sleep for 12 out each 24 hours. When I looked at him in surprise, he said, “Now you can get started on your list.” I asked whether there was a particular trip he had in mind, but he just shrugged and grinned. (Yes, that grin again.)
During the evening, there were several times when I found myself in his arms. He has a particular fondness for cooking and working in the kitchen together, and more than once I noticed that he had his arms around me again while I worked at this or that. My family seemed quite determined to allow us to connect without interruption during those moments, a surprisingly uncharacteristic behavior for them. They’re usually, uhm, rather opposed to public displays of affection.
It was a bit tough putting DD to bed. She still had that low-grade fever and cough, and she had a hard time staying asleep even with the children’s Nyquil. My ex and I had decided to take her to the doctor the next day, since she didn’t seem to be getting better and had developed a fever. So she coughed and complained and cried and got out of bed for what seemed like forever and what was probably 45 minutes before she went to sleep. Soon afterwards, HoFS and I were headed for bed. I was exhausted, he’d been driving for large parts of two days, and I really wanted some alone time with him.
We really were going to settle down and go to sleep, I think. Right until I turned over to say good night, and then he kissed me, and there was this electric spark that jumped all the way down my spine in one intense ZING of energy. And then my fingers did a little walking, and, well, we learned that it is possible to be very, very quiet when the house is full of people. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
DD didn’t let us get too distracted, though. Her coughing and crying spates got closer and closer together until, sometime around 1am, we had to rearrange who was sleeping where. We didn’t get much sleep after that -– she must’ve been up three or four times between 1am and 8am, and I was up coughing a couple of times myself. The fact that my bed is hideously uncomfortable didn’t help, either.
Oh, that reminds me of part of what we did on Saturday. After everyone else got home from their shopping trips, my dad took me and DD out to look at mattresses. Mine was 12 or 13 years old and had become dreadfully uncomfortable. So we went to look and see what else was available. Because I am who I am, I tested every bed in the store, and then went to lie down on the hand-tufted, lots of extra springs, god-this-feels good mattresses that started at double the cost of the next most expensive ones and went up from there. The king size mattress with six inches of cashmere lining was … really a lot of money. And very, very comfortable.
Luckily, I have a tiny bedroom and it barely holds a queen-size bed, much less a kind size. So I picked out the least expensive version instead. The floor model, at 50% off, was “only” $700 more than the next most expensive mattress in the store. (Gulp.)
I love my dad.
But.. they won’t deliver floor models and the rental car dad got didn’t have a carrier roof. The salesman offered to give us another $200 off if we would find a way to get the mattress home. He figured we could rent a truck and a couple of delivery guys for that much. It was December 23, though, and we didn’t do anything about it that day.
So we left without it, and my back was sore when I woke up on December 26. Just like every other morning for the last six or eight months and in spite of regularly turning my old beater of a mattress.
In spite of all that, HoFS seemed to be in a pretty good mood that day. Must’ve been the cuddling we did the night before. And maybe he reacts to seeing me the same way I react to seeing him? I’ll have to ask him about that...
Hi y'all! I just wanted to touch base and wish everyone a happy New Year. I've been thinking of you all so often these days!
JJ, I have spent the last half hour reading your various installments -- can't wait for the next one.
Ti and I are doing great, as are my monsters, and I can't ask for much more than that right now. I feel. . . whole. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
One of my NY resolutions is to reread HNHN with Ti, so I am hoping to be visiting the forum a lot more these days.
Glad things are better, and I bet they will continue getting better if you stay proactive.
Reading HNHN together was good for us. We could comment to each other, and state our concerns as we read. It unlocked a lot of hidden things and made it possible for us to work through them.
I am guessing the finances are looking up too. I know that was hard on you.
Oh, thank you, thank you. This is always good news !
Ti is listening to HNHN on his 1.5 commute trip every AM & PM. It's interesting to reread the book myself and see how much my perspective and needs have shifted over the last 5 and then 10 years (when I first picked the book up) -- how we both have changed. I am loving having the opportunity to sit and discuss with him what we learned about each day and how we can work together to make our marriage more fulfilling for us both. It's what I had dreamed about for so long, and seeing his excitement and enthusiasm for our marriage brings me a joy I can't begin to describe.
And you are right -- financially, things are much better. It was a shame -- we went through a period of not being paid -- not one cent -- for over 6 months. This after watching his paychecks arrive later and later, due to a faltering business, and then they stopped arriving altogether. Ti stuck through it, out of loyalty for his employer, before he finally conceded defeat and sought employment elsewhere.
Blessing come disguised in all sorts of ways, don't they? 2007 will be a wonderful year!
Here I am babbling again. . . I guess some things never change, LOL. How the heck have you been?
Hey...hope everyone had good holidays. I did. Each one since DDay2 has been better than the previous, at least.
Sometimes I wonder why I read on MB. There is so much pain and, dare I say it, plain stupid WS tricks around here. I find myself staying away more and more. Just too hard, too close to home, to read it over and over. Not really triggers so much...I think I empathise too much. Pain, pain, go away. Come again some other day.
GC, I think I'm reaching your threshold.
Then I read cool posts from JJ and SLH. And I mean cool, as in refreshing and happy and encouraging and just plain, well, cool.
Say, SLH, did you guys move? How is the job sitch? You promised an update last time you did a drive by, you know.
And I want to thank you again for the info you sent to me so long ago. You helped me solve a whole bunch of messy, complicated, obscure stuff. Basically, personal recovery started for me when I listened to you.
With prayers,
PS: GC, 2long was supposed to say hey in person to you guys for me last month. Just checking to see if he complied....hand him a brew and it pushes everything else out of his mind, I'm told...
Our marriage is great - still room for improvement, and will be for a while, but we are very happy.
Being challenged is good for us in some ways, and we reach heights we couldn't reach if things went along OK all the time. I feel it too from time to time.
Glad the girls are doing well too - that is good.
Aph asked it first, but did you have to move? I was wondering that too.
It's ridiculous of course (she's out of her f-in' mind), but I don't care 2 go in2 it here.
In other, better news: My W and I are finally able 2 talk more or less comfortably about the A, and we watch the Dr Phil show and comment on it occasionally. We had a great convo with our son a few nights ago, about the fact that love isn't a feeling, but a choice. He's only 19, so he didn't get it even though he's really bright. But I think he unders2d some of the main points. More interesting 2 me was that my W gets it.
I won't say I'm entirely at ease about our prospects for the fu2re, but I really don't worry about them either. Make any sense? We don't sleep the whole night 2gether - I snore and she's sleeping pretty lightly with all the stress over the other house - so I usually wait for her 2 fall asleep, then go upstairs 2 a cozy area in our full-height attic that lets me play with my telescope and computers. (she snores 2, not as loud, but it doesn't bother me).
That's one of the things I worried about. Darn, I hoped she had come to her senses, and left. You were probably too nice to her.
How about MIL? Is she still there?
If you are talking with W about A, she must be pretty withdrawn (from A) by now. What holds things back still? I mean, what are your concerns mostly now?
MIL is still there. Appears 2 have abandoned her application for some really cool senior apartments (restored craftsman and Victorian bungalos) 2 stay in our 2nd home and support my SIL in her lawsuit against us.
Affecting my W very deeply. Neither one of us will have anything 2 do with SIL after this is settled, and I won't have anything 2 do with MIL either, if she supports SIL like it looks like she intends.
I think my W is pretty withdrawn from RM, but it was only last May she asked if she could collaborate with him professionally. I'm still on guard. I don't think there's been any contact, but I did discover she hasn't deleted his email from her contacts list.
She's thinking about applying for a full-time faculty position, but this lawsuit is going 2 make that difficult. She's also wanting 2 start a PhD program (distance learning in the UK), but it's also going 2 be hard 2 apply for if we're still dealing with my fool of a SIL.
I'm being supportive of her goals, because that's who I am. But she still seems a tad selfish 2 me at times - possibly my triggerability even now.
The faculty job is something I hope she applies for. The distance learning in the UK will only require that she spend a 2ple weeks a year in the UK, with her research being conducted at OOSP.
Of course, if RM were 2 consult in any way in that, I'd be so went...
But I've told her that, and she understands.
Anyway, though I think she's come a long way, I don't think she's done with withdrawal from RM quite yet. I can see the progress, though, and I'm liking it.
Hi SLH and Appy and everyone! I'm so glad the posts here are a little lighter than the posts "out there." I think that's why this thread, and Idiotville, and the Neak family threads are so popular. They're islands of real life in this sea of chaos. People need that. 2Long, I'm sorry about the SIL suit. I don't think I know the history there, but perhaps it's not important to the overall conversation. I think you should know, though, that you sound a ton better than you did a year or two or three ago. You've changed and I think your wife has, too. (2). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
And as promised, here's the next installment. I only made it through Tuesday, can you believe that? A whole post and the most interesting thing is that DD has a cold. I truly know how to make a story out of nothing....
So I left off on Tuesday morning. There was the post-Christmas activity (picking up all the stuff that built up all over the house) and not much else. My parents, sister, and cousin made their way out of the house to go downtown to see the Rembrandt drawings. The brother who works on the Hill went down to his office for a while. He’s a legislative correspondent – which means he answers substantive letters from constituents -- for his Senator and prides himself on getting out letters quickly. I suspect he wanted to clear his desk before going home for the latter part of the break. My other brother said something about working, but ended up sleeping the whole day.
So that left me, DD, and HoFS. We did the usual morning things early on and then got ready to go to DD’s doctor appointment. We talked about various ways to handle it; I was pretty sure that I don’t want to face my ex’s husband in a doctor’s office, so it didn’t seem fair to have HoFS come to an appointment. At the same time, I wanted him close by. My mom had asked HoFS if he wanted to go down to the exhibit with them, and he chuckled and said, “J has this six-foot rule when I’m around. I don’t think that’ll work.” I chimed in with, “He’s mine. I’m keeping him.” And that was the end of that.
So I wanted him close by – but couldn’t bring him to the appointment itself. So he came in far enough to find out where we would be (it’s a big medical office building) and I gave him the keys. Off he went.
The doctor spent five minutes looking at DD just so we would feel like she’d done something, but it was pretty obvious that she made her diagnosis within five seconds of walking into the room. “The good news is that there’s no sign of pneumonia or bronchitis even though she’s coughing a lot. She has a bad cold and the cough is caused by post-nasal drip associated with the cold. The bad news is that she has a cold and medical science hasn’t figured out anything to do about it. You’re ten days into what should be a ten to fourteen day cold. Just wait it out. Give her benadryl if you can’t sleep and put a humidifier in her room.”
I was relieved that it hadn’t converted into a sinus infection – DD has had them in the past and there’s virtually no difference between a sinus infection and a bad cold unless you’re a doctor, near as I can figure. They’ve told us what to look for, but really, a runny nose and circles under the eyes? It’s kinda hard to tell whether those are from a sinus infection or it being the day after Christmas and you have a cold!
Anywho, DD got a chance to see mommy again, which she appreciated. When we were done, I sent HoFS a text message and then DD and I walked my ex to her car. And then I discovered that although HoFS had the car keys, he’d walked over to the nearby shopping center and left the locked car there. So DD and I had some time to kill. We used it by jumping over puddles. Well, “over” is a relative term. I said we should jump over them. DD decided we should jump in them.
By the time HoFS returned, DD was more than a little damp.
HoFS, wonderful man that he is, brought me coffee. I hadn’t had any all day and HoFS doesn’t drink it. But he knows that I drink half-caf with sweetener and milk and did his darndest to get that for me. Isn’t that cool? It made me unreasonably happy, let me tell you.
When DD got in the car, she really learned why it is that one jumps over puddles unless you’re close to home. She didn’t like sitting in damp clothes and shoes on the way home, not one bit. Somewhere on the way to or from the doctor, HoFS suggested that we find time to go for a walk in the evening. I said that sounded like an excellent idea, and said that DD would probably want to go along. He said no, he really wanted some one-on-one time, which I thought was just fine. I said we could leave her in my cousin’s capable hands.
Oh, come to think of it, we didn’t go directly home. By that point we were out of children’s Nyquil and cough drops, and I didn’t have any Benadryl in the house. My cousin had also recommended Airborne as a good way to prevent and reduce the effects of colds. So of course we had to stop at a drug store. I also wanted to pick up a couple of bottles of wine for gifts for friends we were going to see on Thursday, and HoFS had made the excellent suggestion that we ought to have some champagne on hand for New Years.
DD was more than a little tired and crazy by the time we finished in the drug store – it was well past nap time by then and she was still running a fever. So I made a snap decision and decided to wait on the liquor store trip until later in the week. We headed home, where HoFS threw himself into making dinner. Mom had asked us to boil eggs for deviled eggs, which are a tradition in my family this time of year. I told my mom to tell HoFS to do it, because I would forget. Sure enough, I forgot completely. But HoFS did that, and sliced vegetables and did various other things related to dinner while I fell asleep with DD. When I woke up and came downstairs, I was astonished at all that he’d accomplished. And thought, sort of vaguely, that maybe he was trying to impress my mom or something. (He’s mentioned before that he’s a little intimidated by my parents, so I thought that might be part of it.)
Somewhere along in there, my brother called and asked if there was anything that they should pick up for supper. I said I didn’t really know because I hadn’t worked on it, and HoFS took the phone out of my hands and said, “Here, I did the prep, let me talk to them.” He walked into the kitchen and started talking to my brother about various things that were in the fridge and I went back to doing the mental holiday stuff that I was doing. I think I was reading e-mail or surfing the web or something like that. And I thought, “Golly, it’s nice to have other people take care of cooking and shopping without me having to do it!” I really liked having the help over that week. Over the several days that everyone had been around, I’d been taking care of the underlying cleaning stuff and making sure that the bathrooms and kitchen stayed pretty clean. But that was taking me a lot less time than it usually does to do all the cooking, all the cleanup, all the laundry, and all the other household chores that are part of general life when you’re a single parent.
So anyway, soon there were many adults in the house, all putting things away and getting supper ready. There was a blur of people trying out the various forms of Airborne that’d been purchased (my family got some too) and lots of discussion of Rembrandt, parking in downtown DC, and DD’s cold. Eventually we all sat down to eat – leftover ham, deviled eggs, sliced veggies, chicken salad (or was that another night? I can’t keep track. Maybe that was Christmas eve…), and assorted side dishes. I recall asking for steamed broccoli because although my mom is a healthy cook, she tends to serve much less green vegetables than I do and I was missing them. I also had a craving for brussel sprouts, but I didn’t satisfy that until just the other day.
DD wanted me to sit next to her, so I ended up sitting across from HoFS rather than next to him. I thought that was all right – it meant that I got to look at him much more than when I was sitting next to him. DD took a lot of my attention at dinner, though, and I enjoyed sitting and eating with everyone. About 20 minutes before dinner was over, HoFS started making motions that we ought to go out and get some fresh air. It took me quite a while to find a good break in the conversation to do that – everyone was still sitting and chatting, and I’m not one to just get up and walk out while the family is still around the table. Eventually the phone rang, though, and after I answered it HoFS pulled me out of the room with the words, “Come on. I -really- need a break!”
So we went out for a walk, which I’ll have to talk about another time. It’s time for bed now. I will say, though, that it was a lovely evening for a walk, if a bit chilly by then.
Wow, go away for a week or two and look who crawls out of the woodwork! my, my, my...
BINDER, you old coot!...I just knew you were still fogging a mirror. I just knew you were still straddling a saddle. I just knew you were alive and kicking. I just knew you were three sheets to the wind. Oh no, that one's not right...oh well.
How is your little son and daughter doing? Did you all have a nice Christmas?
You have to give an update Binder...it's not fair if you don't.
SLH it is so good to see you too!
FAR, hey!
2long, regarding what you said about your W taking this SIL thing very hard (and who wouldn't, it is just awful), and then what you said about her still striking you as somewhat self-centered or selfish (can't remember your exact word) -
I would guess there is a lesson in there somewhere for her. A painful lesson no doubt, but I hope it is merely a veiled miracle in the making. In fact I am sure it is. A lesson learned is often a miracle, don't you think?
I know the lessons I finally learned were nothing short of miracles. Wasn't many more self-centered than I was until I got those painful lessons. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
2long, regarding what you said about your W taking this SIL thing very hard (and who wouldn't, it is just awful), and then what you said about her still striking you as somewhat self-centered or selfish (can't remember your exact word) -
I would guess there is a lesson in there somewhere for her. A painful lesson no doubt, but I hope it is merely a veiled miracle in the making. In fact I am sure it is. A lesson learned is often a miracle, don't you think?
I know the lessons I finally learned were nothing short of miracles. Wasn't many more self-centered than I was until I got those painful lessons. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I most definitely agree. I think that's why I've said so many times before (though not much recently, since I've avoided talking much about my sitch on here of late) that it's been interesting 2 watch.
Weaver! 2 Long! Appy! How wonderful to see you too! It is good to be back, and doing well, instead of moaning! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
FF, it has been good "seeing" you online! :wink, wink:
Ap, I am so pleased I could help you in any small way. You were halfway there, you know. More than halfway.
To answer y'all's question, we are still in Hou-Tex. Yes, still. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I guess I have just learned to bloom where I am planted. Learned a lot of hard lessons, in fact; ones I thought I had conquered long ago. But it's a new year, with new opportunities and new blessings, and I fully intend to make use of every chance to move forward!
Ti is finally at a job where his myriad talents are recognized, utilized and rewarded, and although we are still owed close to 8 paychecks from his former employer, we are climbing out of the financial hole we are in. It feels good to stand up again and feel the wind on our faces. So good.
So SS, I was hoping I could persuade you to part with that delicious popcorn and nut recipe. . . my kiddos were jonesing for some this year! LOL
It feels good to stand up again and feel the wind on our faces. So good.
It's probably a nice warm wind down there too, eh? Up here we try never to let the wind blow in our faces. LOL "May the wind always be on your back" is what I'm thinking. Well it'll freeze the breath right to your face if it isn't.
Yep, everyone at the ole campfire is diong good nowadays...recovering is what we are all doing. We are so blessed. It is just amazing how blessed we are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Me, I seem to get up quicker and quicker every time I get knocked down now. I read something where someone was saying that people were amazed at how fast she recovered and her answer to that was "well at my age, if I don't get up [email]d@mn[/email] fast, I might not be able to get up at all". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Well, a cool wind for us, anyway. . . at 62 degrees, LOL!
Weaver, I can see I have some reading to do on what has been going on with you. Should I go back on Gray's thread, or have you been posting elsewhere? I feel terrible for being so out of the loop.
2Long, I don't dip, but that does sound like some good stuff!! ROFL!
Quote
"well at my age, if I don't get up [email]d@mn[/email] fast, I might not be able to get up at all".
It started like any other last Tuesday before Christmas. My shopping list was still being prepared. I had bought more things on-line this year than any other year but I there were more people on my list than any other year before because I was also shopping for J’s family. I left work after six that evening, far too late for all I had to do. I had been there since 7:30 that morning. I decided if I was going to get through most of my shopping list, I didn’t have time to stop at home and make something to eat. I did make a quick stop to drop off somethings. While I was there, my middle son called and asked me to drop off one of his Chicago Bears jerseys he wanted to wear to school the next day. My two youngest boys are on the Bears bandwagon right now and they try to wear Bears apparel as frequently as possible to school. So one more thing before I began my shopping adventure in ernest.
I headed east from home and stopped by Subway to pick up a sandwich. A sub isn’t something you can eat easily while driving and yet it was probably the most healthy food choice option before me that I could devour quickly. I ordered a turkey breast and ham on wheat and finished it quickly. I had 2/3 of my drink remaining after I finished my sandwich. That is itself very unusual since I usually drink quite a bit with my meals. This was not going to be any ordinary evening shopping adventure.
I hopped back in my big blue van and continued heading east. I needed to get to the Canton area to be able to pick up as many of the things on my list as possible. There was one item in particular that was a priority. I decided to call J on my way. She needed another HoFS’ call. Her daughter wasn’t with her that evening, her parents and sister were arriving the next day, and she had a bit of a cold. We had a good chat. I think it was pretty cheery. She had some idea of where I was headed but she wasn’t exactly certain. I told her that I’d probably need her advice on gifts for her family from the store I was headed into (think big red spot).
I found some of what I was looking for near the front of the store. J thought what I was looking at was a good idea for her sister. I believe that J got a call on her other phone that she had to take. She said she’d call me back soon. Sure enough, she did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
We continued to chat as I moved through the store. It was crowded for a Tuesday evening. I wasn’t doing a good job getting things for people on my list. And I did have a list! J’s helping me work on that habit. At some point, J and I ended our phone conversation. I think it was because I was having a hard time staying connected to J and having a conversation while I was trying to hurry through the store. I’m a serial processing kind of guy.
I headed to the check out area seeing that it was much later than I expected. I really needed to move it if I was going to get to my next destination before they closed. It was only across the parking lot but I wanted to drive over there and I knew traffic was going to be a problem. I checked my watch again. I only had 30 minutes. Suddenly, I saw an opening in another checkout line. I moved out of my line and headed to that cash register and got there before the clerk could even ask for the next customer. I was able to check out quickly. Phew. I was going to make it.
I headed out of the parking lot. There was only one exit out of the parking lot that had a light to help me turn left onto the cross road. I was nervous. The line of cars was long. One cycle of lights. Two cycles. Finally, on the third cycle I was able to make my left turn. It didn’t take me long to make it to my next destination from there. I was later than expected but I arrived with 15 minutes to spare. The security guard was pacing near the door. I think he was hoping to lock up soon. It wasn’t to be.
I sat briefly after I turned off the engine. The radio was still playing but I turned it off also. I was nervous. This was big. I was headed to the jeweler.
The sales clerk that had helped me pick out my selection was busy when I walked in. Another asked to help me. I told her that I was waiting to pick up something that evening. She took my claim check and tried to find the item. She couldn’t. For a moment, my heart sank a bit. Then, my original sales clerk showed up and pointed out that she had set aside my selection and had it steam cleaned. Perfect. She found it and brought it over to show me.
My sales clerk was very interesting. She said she was happy to have an engineer as a customer. She had a wonderful time explaining the different qualities I had to choose between when making my selection and about all the technical terms. She told me about the graduate thesis that was used to describe the cuts on the ideal cut stone. We spent 90 minutes together the first night I was in the store. The second night it must have been at least another hour. I was pleased with the time and attention. That was one of the main reasons I decide to make my purchase from this store and not others or on-line.
The clerk presented me with my purchase under bright lights. All of a sudden it seemed like none of the other sales clerks had anything else to do but stand around admiring my purchase. Wow. It was gorgeous. It really sparkled. “Like my girl’s eyes,” I said. My sales clerk rolled her eyes. Others smiled brightly and sighed, “Aw, that’s so nice.” I blushed a bit and grinned. My sales clerk commented to the others about the size of the table. Another clerk chimed in, “I think that is a two table diamond.” My sales clerk and I had joked about the term ‘table’ being used to describe one particular physical dimension of the jewel and about how many ‘tables’ away one might notice the stone in a restaurant.
As my clerk was packing my purchase, others were asking me if I had a plan for presenting it. I said I was still working on that and they all laughed. I said that I still had a few days to think about it. As I turned to leave with my purchase, all wished me well. The security guard had to unlock the doors so I could leave the building. I don’t remember my feet touching the ground. I was very excited and very nervous. I was carrying the diamond solitare. Next, I had an important call to make.
I placed a called to J’s family from my van parked in front. They weren’t expecting my call and were probably even surprised that I knew their home number. J’s mother answered. I introduced myself and asked how she was doing. I asked about the packing they were doing for their trip the next morning. Then I asked to speak with J’s father. I introduced myself again and exchanged pleasantries. I finally got to my point and told him that I was planning on proposing to J in the next few days and I asked if he had any objections. He replied, “No. I can’t think of any.”. I explained my plan or at least what I had so far—to find some time when J and I could get away alone together, perhaps on the evening of Tuesday, Dec. 26 and propose to J. I explained that I didn’t really want to propose on Christmas day. He thought that would be good. I wished him luck on his travels and told him that I would see him on Christmas day.
I had two more stops to make that evening. I needed to purchase gift cards and seasonal coffee at a certain coffee store and get some food at the other large, even larger and scarier chain store. My tasks finished, I headed home. J sent a text at some point asking me how I as doing. I think the silence from me was making her a bit nervous. I called her on my way home and we chatted. I was tired. It was after 10. I hadn’t accomplished nearly enough of my shopping but I did get the most important item.
In the coming days my sons and I went to see the Mannheim Steamroller concert and traveled to Indiana to visit with my family before Christmas. I didn’t tell anyone about what was about to happen. That was my way. I wanted to wait until I spoke with J. My sons and I returned home in time following the visit to my family to make a few more Christmas goodies and go to midnight mass. We were late unfortunately because I messed up the time that the service started. Still, we were only ten minutes late. After the service we returned home and the boys opened one gift. This is their Christmas tradition. The other gifts would be opened Christmas morning. I think I finally got to bed about 1:30 Christmas morning. Good grief. I had a six hour drive ahead of me later that morning.
My sons woke up early and we had finished going through the presents under the tree fairly quickly. I had kept hidden some wrapped gifts that I preferred not get shaken or dropped prior to Christmas morning. Following the festivities, I dropped the boys off at their mother’s home as was the holiday parenting schedule. Soon I’d be off, headed to visit J and her family.
Unfortunately I left later then I expected because it took me a while to wrap the remaining gifts and I had to find an open gas station. That last part wasn’t as easy as I expected it would be. I was eventually on my way. I called J to tell her I was headed her way. She was happy about that but the disappointment about my later than expected arrival was clear in her voice. When I arrived, she greated me, ummm, warmly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Her family had held dinner for my arrival and her daughter’s other mom was visiting at the daughter’s request. It was busy to say the least. Perhaps it was a good thing I wasn’t going to make my proposal this evening.
On Tuesday, Dec. 26 I still wasn’t sure when or how I was going to propose to J. Her family announced they would be out until 6 pm and then they help prepare dinner after that time. J and I had to take her daughter to the doctor’s office and to do some shopping. I tried to help with as much dinner preparation as possible before 6 pm so that we could move things along and so J and I could get some time alone before her daughter had to go to bed. Her youngest brother called from t he road asking if there was anything we could think of that we needed for dinner that they could pick up. I said I thought champagne would be a good idea. A few minutes after we hung up J and I discovered that we also needed salad dressing but it was too late for the family to go back to the store. We made due with what we had available.
Dinner prep moved along quickly. We had fresh veggies, ham, and some fruit. I think there was also some cheese. J’s father asked for dessert when we were finished. Good grief! Dinner seemed to take a very long time. We needed some ‘alone’ time. Earlier in the day I had told J that I really would like to get away for a walk in the evening, just the two of us. She thought that was a good idea. However, it seemed like J was in no hurry at the dinner table despite my obvious suggestions that we should leave! Finally, we got up and prepared to leave. J told her daughter that her cousin was in charge of her. We left the rest of the family to clean up after dinner and we hit the road.
J turned left out of her house and asked where we should go. I said that I’d like to go as far as the House of Pancakes in downtown Bethesda. We turned around and headed in that direction. I was walking very fast knowing that we needed to return before it got too late and that it was something like a 25-30 minute walk. At one point J asked me to slow down because I was walking very fast. I slowed, only a bit. At some point, a few blocks from my destination, J suggested that we had walked far enough. True, we had walked a good bit and it was a little cold out. I said that I’d like to continue and go up the steps to the plaza area in ‘Rocky’ fashion. J reluctantly conceded and we continued our brisk walk. The entire way, I kept trying to rehearse what I was going to say. I still wasn’t sure but boy, that ring box sure seemed to make a huge bulge in my sweatshirt pocket.
We arrived at the plaza steps and I even forgot to run up the steps in ‘Rocky’ fashion. We headed for an area we had visited before. The area was lined with some huge rocks. We had visited the same area the first weekend that I visited J in September 2005. I teased about playing on the rocks so we helped each other up on the rocks and then jumped from rock to rock like kids. The rock path led us to a circular stage like area that the little kids always run around on or play ‘train’. J grabbed my hips and started making train sounds and conga around the circle. We were off! After encircling the stage once, I led J to a big rock that she was very familiar with. It was the same rock she slipped on and fell that very first weekend together. She liked to tease that she fell head over heels for me that weekend! Truth be told, she nearly broke her neck.
I led J to that rock, held both hands and asked her to sit. She slipped off the rock in the process but I managed to catch her this time as I was holding both hands. At this point I got down on one knee and looked her in the eyes and began the speech that I had been drafting in my head but had not quite finished. It went something like this,
“I’ve been really happy the last year and a half. J, we’ve been through a lot together. You’ve helped me so much and we’ve grown a lot together. I’m even able to be down on this knee partly because of how much you helped me. J, I know we have a lot of tough stuff ahead of us on our journey but I want to do this together. I want to show you my commitment to do this together. Would you walk through streets of fire with me? Would you walk through fields of clover with me? Or daffodils? Would you walk even closer? Would you help me tie up the ends of a dream? <pulling out the ring box and opening it in the dimly lit plaza> J, would you marry me?”
J never really had a look of surprise on her face. She had a big smile most of the time and her eyes were wide. She lost the smile as I spoke, and her eyes got bigger. She wasn’t aware of the cold, crisp December air any longer. When I was done talking, she pushed the box to the side and said something like, “We’ll get to that, but there’s something more important here. I’ll walk through streets of fire with you. I’ll walk through fields of clover – and daffodils. I’ve been very happy this last year and a half too. I love you.”
I put the ring on her finger and she leaned down and gave me a big hug. We stood and hugged more. She was very happy and seemed to be floating. She wasn’t crying.
I led J to a nearby store that had enough lights on so that J could see the ring clearly. She was very happy. :dancing:
We started for her home, me holding her ungloved, ring hand. It was about one-third of the way home before I reminded J that she had not really answered my proposal. She turned and looked at me and said, “Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes!!!” With a kiss after each word. We embraced again, as we had done several times already on the way home and would a few more times before we reached her door steps. At one point I picked her up and swung her around and around. And then I picked her up in my arms – for the first time ever. I might’ve walked home with her that way, but it was still half a mile away and she wouldn’t let me.
She wondered aloud how she would announce the news to her family. Little did she know that her mother and father already had a good idea what was happening and that champagne was chilling in her refrigerator...
HoFS, oh my gosh! Now I know what the others meant when they said they had tears of joy reading the news of my engagement!
That was beautiful! Streets of fire or daffodils indeed.
Congrats to both of you, and to your children who will only benefit from this. Your little one JJ, we have read about since she was practically a newborn, so for her I am just absolutely thrilled. She is going to have a happy family on both sides of the tree, and HoFS your kids are going to have a happy dad, new very loving stepmom and lil sis!
I'm so surprised. I was convinced you were both going to drag this out for far too long, worrying and contemplating and coming up with all sorts of reasons to keep on worrying and contemplating.
So, how's the campfire committee on helping these two build a life and family together starting from 365 miles apart coming along?
Not getting too metaphysical on you (I hope)...
When a dream is set into motion, and when that dream is a benefit to all...the universe will work for the good of it.
In other words, it won't be a struggle to figure out how you will do this. Everything will fall into place almost effortlessly on your part.
Just enjoy it and let it happen.
As far as my part in the committee, I am just going to sit back and watch. And I'll probably point out every now and then, when something falls into place for you just how the universe is bringing you all together, if you don't mind.
Thanks everyone! And SLH, I personally think that weaver is doing a very good job of being smug and cute at the same time. I hope to emulate her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
And yes, I let HoFS tell that part. It seemed to make sense, and he's been waiting to tell it for a week now. (We waited to post until he could tell his boys in person, which was Wednesday night.) I could spend the time and energy on writing the prelude and all of that stuff, but he doesn't write that much. I did spend a while last night writing that part from my perspective though, so here's more of the story...
So we headed out for our walk. I spoke to DD long enough to tell her that my cousin was in charge of her, which she loved, and then out the door we went. Oddly enough, no one asked us to help clean up before we went.
When we got to the bottom of the stairs, HoFS looked back and forth for a moment. “Which way to go, which way to go…” I suggest one way and he said, “I’d like to go in the direction of the Pancake House.” Oh, I said, okay, and we headed the other way instead.
Meanwhile, inside my most quiet private self, I was thinking, “Where are we going? The Pancake House? Why are we going there? Oh. Oh dear. Is this what I think it is?”
As we walked along, HoFS commented on how cold it was. He was only wearing a sweatshirt, and it really was too cold for just that. Golly, he walked fast! As we rounded the bend and stepped onto the bike path that goes around NIH, I finally took his arm and said, “I can’t walk this fast. Please, slow down!”
So he did, all while telling me that it was cold. Yet he wanted to hold my hand rather than a glove, so I wore one and he kept my other hand warm in his own. Have I mentioned that his hands are wonderful? Just thought I ought to remind you of that.
As we walked along, I reminded him of a list of questions that had been in the New York Times recently – things one ought to know about one’s significant other before making a commitment to marry. There are many difficult things between us. There is the distance. There are three boys on his side and one lovely-and-demanding girl on mine. There are careers that get in the way. And one other thing that I have rarely mentioned in public – a disagreement about having more kids. It frightens him -- and is something I very much want.
There were other things on the list. One was “What annoys you about my family?” I laughingly reminded him of that one, since he’d just spent 24 hours surrounded by them. He said that for the most part he was finding it easier to be around them than previously, though he could see some things that would bother him in the long run. (My family, I’d like to note, is about as fractious and difficult as a family can be. They are also funny, kind, caring, and generally good people. So his answers made good sense to me – the things that annoyed him annoy me, too. He can see that that’s not all that the family is made of.) He mentioned that my dad had seemed a bit giddy at dinner, and I agreed.
As we approached the “yellow slides” playground, I suggested that we not go all the way to the Pancake House, but instead turn around before that. I was a little worried about DD and how late it was getting. She needed to get to bed and it was already after 8pm. He said no, we needed to run up the stairs (the Pancake House is on a plaza that’s above the street level) like Rocky.
I chuckled, knowing that he and his boys had been watching the old Rocky movies recently. Yet the back of my mind was going, “Rocky? Run up stairs? Uhmmmmmmmm…….” Behind that was a very quiet voice shrieking in utter panic. His warm hand in mine kept me going.
As we walked along the last stretch, we were in the downtown area of Bethesda. It was amazingly quiet – that area is full of restaurants and usually it’s very busy in the evenings. I guess no one goes out to eat on the day after Christmas. We talked about restaurants we might want to try, but the conversation seemed to lag a bit.
Then we were walking up the stairs to the plaza and my hands were starting to be clammy. Is this? No. It can’t be. Is it? No. It can’t be. He asked me what time it was and I pulled out my phone to look. 8:28pm. 8/28. The day that, in 2005, I gathered up the shreds of my courage and dignity and sent him a text message that ended nine months of almost perfect silence. It can’t be.
Then he was laughing and standing up on top of a rock – one that I fell off of a year ago in September. The very first time he visited after that long, cold, dark time. The last time I tried to jump up on that rock, I’d fallen badly. I landed on my shoulder and neck and came as close as I ever have to breaking my neck. I heard all the vertebrae crack that day – and then stop only a step before the cracking would have been breaking.
I hesitated a moment. Do I want to climb up onto this rock with this laughing man, holding out the hands I love? I may fall off again and I don’t really want to break my neck tonight.
I stepped up, holding onto his hands, and we looked at each other for a moment.
Still laughing and holding my hand, he leapt to the next rock and I followed. So we went, leaping along the rocks, him making sure I was steady and me laughing along behind. Once he had to let go of my hand for a long leap, and then turned to catch me as I jumped across as well.
We stepped down from the rocks and he was laughing again. “Now, around the circle like a train…” because that’s what DD and her friend do when we bring them here. So around we went, my hands at his waist. He was doing a cha-cha sound while I made train noises, and I thought, “No. This is just fun. Just fun, and great fun it is. I really like this man a lot…”
We were both laughing and out of breath when he took my hand again and began to lead me down from the stage where we’d been standing. I thought for a moment that we were heading home, and then he stopped next to that very first rock, the one that nearly killed me when I fell head over heels for him.
“Have a seat, love,” he said, hands firmly in mine.
Then I fell off the rock again. I swear, I did, and HoFS will attest to it. His hands, warm and strong on mine, caught me before I hit the ground. We were laughing as he began to speak, and then I wasn’t laughing anymore because he was down on one knee in front of me.
“I’ve been very happy the last year and a half,” he said, “and a lot of that is about you, Joanna. I can be on this knee at least partly because of you. And I want to know if you’ll walk in streets of fire with me, because sometimes they will be. And I want to know if you’ll walk in fields of clover with me. Will you walk even closer?”
I lost my smile as he spoke, and I could feel my heart racing in my chest. Oh. My. He really… is. Oh my. Yet his warm hands in mine, his eyes – holding the warmth of the son (spelling intentional) even in the dark in December – his soul, keeping my heart safe even when I’m scared and even when I’m angry and even when I’m lost.
“If I give you my hand, will you take it? And make me the happiest man in the world? Help me tie up the ends of a dream. Joanna, will you marry me?”
He took a cream-colored box out of his pocket and opened it, offering me a diamond ring that, even in that dim light, sparkled and twinkled at me. I’ll admit now that I couldn’t get anything like a good look at it and had absolutely no sense of what it looked like; I suspect I looked either perplexed or unhappy for a fiftieth of a second. Then I looked back up at him, for I’d learned something important in that fiftieth of a second. I really didn’t care what the diamond looked like at all. Not even a little. For all of me, it could’ve been a ring from a Cracker Jack box. (It wasn’t, of course.)
I took his hand and pushed the box aside. “There’s something more important than that,” I said. “Hang onto that and don’t lose it. But right now…” I put my hands on either side of his face, pulling him closer. “I’ve been very happy, too. I’ll walk with you. Through streets of fire and fields of clover. I love you.” Our eyes met and we lost ourselves in each other for a long moment of timeless eternity. There was a kiss. You know the kind of kiss I mean if you’ve ever been in one. The kind that, even after it ends, sends ripples of change up and down the time stream, creating its own reality as it goes. That kind of kiss.
Then he was taking the ring out of the box and there was a moment of silence and he put it on my finger. I looked at it and I looked at him and I had no idea what to say. J, for once in her life, completely at a loss for words. If I remember right, he was going to post about that; I always have something to say.
Quickly enough he was pulling me over to the windows of an art gallery on the plaza. He wanted me to see the ring in real light. Even that wasn’t “real” enough to get a sense of it, I’m sorry to say, and I didn’t come to appreciate its beauty until the next day when I saw it in daylight. Let me say for the record now, though, that it is completely perfect and absolutely lovely.
As we turned away from the gallery hand in hand, he pointed to our reflection in windows across the way. “What do you see?”
Uhm. Us?
“That’s what we’ll look like to the congregation when we turn to face them.”
Oh. OH. OHMYGOD.
I think I just giggled. I said to him, quietly, “Somewhere far back in the deep recesses of my head, there is a small voice that’s screaming in complete panic.”
He nodded and said, “Let me know if you need to reconsider. I’ve got until January 15 to return the ring. They gave me extra time because I was going to be out of town.”
Oh good, I thought. I’m glad he took care of that detail, just in case. And then, And there is no way on God’s Green Earth that I’m giving this ring back, buster!
Then I was in his arms, holding on tight and whispering, “Will you keep my heart safe?” He held me just as tight and said, “That’s my job. I’ll do the very best I can at it.”
Then we were giggling again, floating on air and love. We walked home in a state of something less coherence than when we’d arrived. Once again I wasn’t wearing a glove, and the ring got in the way of his hand. But we managed and it was fun to do it.
Three or four blocks toward home, he paused and looked at me. “You know, you didn’t actually say yes.”
Good heavens. I didn’t? Really? I thought back through what I’d said. Golly. I guess I didn’t. “Yes. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes!!!” With a kiss after each word because it needed emphasis. I think probably there were a few people looking at us somewhere along in there, but I never saw their expressions. I just remember the sounds of feet walking by.
Somewhere along the way I started thinking about what I was going to tell my parents. We’re not very good at this stuff, the telling each other major news. Or at least I’m not any good at it. I won’t go into how long it has sometimes taken me to tell them things, but I knew for a fact that I couldn’t do it by e-mail or phone this time. EEEEEEEEEK. So HoFS asked me what I was going to tell them and I said something coherent like, “OHMYGOD I have to tell my parents. What am I going to tell my parents? OHmyGOD.” About like a 16 year old caught out after curfew with a boy, really.
HoFS just chuckled and let me babble.
As we walked home he said, “Is this the way we came?” and I said yes and he said, “I don’t remember. I was a little preoccupied.” Heh. Yes, you were, love. Yes you were.
Further along the way, under the stars, I stopped suddenly. “You know. For a long time I’ve said that I would walk away if your ex wanted to reconcile, that I wouldn’t stand in the way. I said that there would be a time when that would end. It has ended. I am not walking away from you if that happens.”
He picked me up and swung me around and laughed and laughed under those stars. Then he set me down… and picked me up in his arms, carrying me the way a married man carries his bride. I think he’d’ve carried me home that way if I hadn’t made him put me down again.
I love him.
I worried for the rest of the way about what I was going to say to my family. I had no idea – my mind was truly completely blank. When we got to the stairs to my house, I looked up and paused. He asked me, “What’re you going to say?” and I said I had no idea.
When we walked in, the very first person I saw was my cousin. She gave me the Look. You know the one. Well, no, you don’t, because you don’t know my family. But there’s a family look that means that there are Things Going on. There was a moment of silence, and then I just held up my hand. Because my head was completely empty by then and there was no hope of putting words into it.
So she hugged me – and hugged me a lot, too. She’s been rooting for me and HoFS for a long time, and thoroughly approved of him ever since she met him over Memorial Day Weekend.
I walked a little further into the house to take off my coat and met my brothers heading down to the basement for a break from DD. (I could hear her shrieking happily; she’d obviously worn out all the adults by then.) I caught the younger one and again, at a loss for words, just held up my hand. His eyes got big, and then he grinned, and then he hugged me and shook HoFS’ hands. He said, “Congratulations!” to me. And then, to HoFS, he said, “My condolences.” Because, of course, now HoFS is going to be a member of my admittedly-crazy family and he’ll have to find a way to work with it all. It’s not so easy.
I walked in to talk to my dad, who was sitting in the family room. My cousin went off to get my mom. I stood there trying to figure out what to say and dad looked at my hand. There was a long moment of silence, and then he remembered to act surprised and pleased. He got up and hugged me, shook Rich’s hand, and then things get a little blurry for me. Somewhere in there my cousin came back downstairs and said that she’d seen mom looking at THINGS on the computer. What kind of things? WHITE THINGS.
Oh.
Huh.
That confused me, but I figured that somewhere along the way mom had intuited a clue or two.
She didn’t show up for a while, and someone popped a champagne cork and started pouring it and sparkling cider. Someone else rounded up DD, who was hiding in the basement waiting for me to come find her. Eventually mom came downstairs after dad called her and everyone had champagne. Her first words were to HoFS: “My tongue is perforated, Mr. HoFS!”
That was when I finally figured out that they already knew, and HoFS told me about calling my parents. It flashed through my mind to think, “All that time I was worrying about him and my family and being separated from them… and he was already here.”
A very comforting thought, that.
We toasted our engagement, glasses clinking all ‘round. DD, standing in the middle and below everyone, got missed until I saw her and then we all clinked her glass too. She loved it so much that we toasted again and again – birthdays, holidays, everything we could think of, until finally it was time to take a very sleepy little girl upstairs and put her to bed.
I'm so surprised. I was convinced you were both going to drag this out for far too long, worrying and contemplating and coming up with all sorts of reasons to keep on worrying and contemplating.
Oh, and weaver, I wasn't dragging it out. But HoFS had to make his own decision in his own time. It was very, very difficult to wait so long. I knew back in September of 2005, and told him how I felt in April of 2006. There've been more than a few difficult conversations since then. I'll post about that at some point...
As we walked along, I reminded him of a list of questions that had been in the New York Times recently – things one ought to know about one’s significant other before making a commitment to marry. There are many difficult things between us. There is the distance. There are three boys on his side and one lovely-and-demanding girl on mine. There are careers that get in the way. And one other thing that I have rarely mentioned in public – a disagreement about having more kids. It frightens him -- and is something I very much want.
Yes, but you two have the tools to be able to move the mountains which need to be moved. Love moves mountains JJ. It's a universal energy that sets into motion all that you need to accomplish what is needed.
I believe this with all my heart JJ. I know it to be true.
It'll be fun to watch it happen too.
The having kids part is much too personal for comments at this time, but that too will work itself out for the higher good of both of you, which ever way it turns out.
I don't post on this thread as you know but since you sent us here to read I thought I ought to post here as well.
I don't know HOFS, but I think I can say without reservation that he is one very very lucky man. You are indeed a very special woman and I am sure you will keep his life INTERESTING <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> for many many years to come.
Have you had any contact with our mutual friends? If so have you told them of this?
Congratulations to the both of you. I do hope that our paths will cross again in the future JustJ.
A party does seem like a good idea, I must say. Lemme see here, where is everyone?
Gray is in Minneapolis, Weaver's moving to eastern WI. I'm in the DC area. 2Long is somewhere in California. Aphelion is in Canada (right?). SS is somewhere near Zion Canyon in Utah. FF, I don't think I know where you are. Texas? Or was that someone else? SLH, are you in TX? And FAR, are you in South Africa, or did I just imagine that?
Does anyone have an audio copy of "Love Busters" that they might be willing to sell to me? I've been all over eBay, Amazon, Half.com, BN, Borders, etc and cannot find one anywhere. I saw in the MB bookstore that they had offered them in the past (unless those were DVDs for the course).
If anyone has one for sale or lease <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> please email me at
2Long - I am not big on beer and wine - you can have it all. Mixers do not bother me, though....
And if you like Bailey's type stuff - there is a cream liguor from South Africa called Amarula. From the Marula tree. YUM!!! Only place to get it is Bevmo. Or Durban, or Jburg or Cape town - but that is a long, long drive.
You know, I think one of the really cool things about being involved with HoFS, and being engaged, and continuing to build a life with him, is how much joy it can bring to other people. I really like that.
I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for keystroke, chat and email tracking software. We've been having some problems with my rebellious 11 going-on-17 year old daughter, who's been spending way too much time in chat rooms, etc. I hate to resort to not trusting her, but her safety is more important at this point.
I know this isn't the best place to ask for suggestions for this particular thing, but I know some of you guys go outside this particular thread more often than I do, and may have heard of programs that work.
Hey, SLH, do you want a copy of SpectorSoft? I bought it back in 2003 when things were awful, but never installed it on my ex's computer. (Which is probably just as well.) If you'd like it, e-mail me and I'll send you the registration info. Amazingly enough, I still have it.
And thank you. There is certainly serenity and happiness. There are also doubts and fears -- the anxiety I felt the week before he proposed still crops up sometimes. I'm trying to understand it and definitely don't want to hide or avoid it. I'd much rather resolve it and live happily ever after!
And yes, my ring is truly lovely. HoFS has good taste, and also tastes good. (He just called after a workout, all sweaty and salty. Mmmmmm. C'mere, you...)
You know, I think one of the really cool things about being involved with HoFS, and being engaged, and continuing to build a life with him, is how much joy it can bring to other people. I really like that.
Dear J & H,
Congratulations!! Sooo happy 4 u 2!!
Let us know when u 2 are coming to take a dip in our beautiful warm waters. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Some like to come here for a honeymoon, others come for the sunsets. Me, I like the food. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Thanks very much, Orchid! I actually would love to come to Hawaii for a honeymoon -- it's the only state I've never been to, and I hear that it's wonderful. HoFS was there for a conference a few years ago, and I'm sure he'd like to go back. He met a really nice single mom while he was there, but she was a dolphin and he didn't think it would work out. Still, I bet he'd like to check to see how she and her baby are doing!
I 2k my family 2 Hawaii about 12 years ago while I was on a trip 2 night assist on the IRTF on Mauna Kea.
The week before, we painted the exterior of our house ourselves, and since it was warm and sunny, we got majorly tanned. 2 top it off, I brought along the Hawaiian shirts my W made for me.
Several natives mis2k us for natives. One vendor seemed almost like he was refusing 2 believe us when we told him we were from So. Cal.
Gawd...please don't tell Mel...but when I see all my brothers and sisters who aren't here in Texas...it 'bout makes me wanna move north.
Get up here! And bring some of that alcohol bread!
It's blizzarding today Kimmy. Couple more days of this and we could go snowmobiling. We could have some real fun, none of that pantywaste rodeo stuff. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm going to Fort Lauderdale in Feb with GB, so can't make SAT....YET. Maybe in the spring and then lookieoutu! We'll pick up my little brother and go ride one of those iron bulls! (get your minds out of the gutter boys, it's a legit activity down there).
I've been making lots of beer with my buddies lately, and adding a few handfuls of leftover brewing grains to bread dough (all the carbs have been turned to sugar and removed by then) creates miracles.
You have now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and it looks good on you!
Gray,
I used to love Jeff Smith (The Frugal Gourmet) and have two of his cookbooks, one is "Cooking with Wine".
Only thing I ever cooked with beer was brats.
On a health kick now, so no pork.
I hear that homemade beer is very good for you. Thinking about trying to make some lactic acid wine (what the Bible refers to as new wine I am told and very low alcohol content) which is supposed to be very, very healthy for you. I'll let you know.
If only I could get my hands on some organic grapes this time of year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I don't have homemade beer. I don't have homemade bread. I don't have a garden. I don't have fresh-slaughtered meat to age and then cook for a long time.
Darn civilization. Sometimes it really gets in the way of good food.
I do have a fire in the fireplace, though, so not all has been lost to progress.
(This is the most ridiculous post I've ever written. I'm warm, well-fed, deliriously happy about my life, I'm burning bits of my Christmas tree, and I could have homemade bread before bedtime if I got my butt in gear.)
I hope you shot 'em or somethin' first, as having screaming kids in a frying pan of hot beer doesn't sound like fun, even if they are brats! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
...boy, that was bad. I should probably not hit the "submit" button...
...but I'm a little goofy right now. Just got my abstract in with only 10 minutes 2 spare before the deadline!
OK, submit!
-ol' 2long P.S. I can even find a King Crimson song that relates!:
"No ball bagatelle incites your children to conspire. They slide across your frying pan and fertilize your fire! Still, you and Jones go madder, broken bones broken ladder, Hey Ho!" -King Crimson, "Indoor Games"
I don't have homemade beer. I don't have homemade bread. I don't have a garden. I don't have fresh-slaughtered meat to age and then cook for a long time.
Darn civilization. Sometimes it really gets in the way of good food.
I do have a fire in the fireplace, though, so not all has been lost to progress.
A hot shower is worth a lot though - when you think about it.
You're so right, SS. And considering that it took me 20 minutes in that very thing (a hot shower) to wake up this morning, I guess I'd better either get more sleep or stay in the present day. Or both.
I'm working tonight. It's the first time I've earned my pay in weeks. They pay me, you know, to be able to put together Excel spreadsheets.
Well, okay. They pay me to calm them down when they're excited. But they think they pay me for Excel spreadsheets. It's just as well that they actually pay me to calm them down, because a high school student could do the spreadsheets.
I............. also like to think in the shower. Think, pray, it all works for me. The "white noise" helps me concentrate, or it keeps the world at bay so I can.
Work then, and get it done, I'm sure HoFS will be there (on the phone, if nothing else) for you when you finish.
1 cup slivered Almonds 1 cup whole pecans 2 cups Planters Deluxe Mixed nuts (no peanuts) (see notes below) 10 cups popped corn (air popped, no salt or butter)
Mix the nuts and popped corn in very large mixing bowl
Combine the following in sauce pan -
1 1/2 cups Sugar 1 1/2 cups Light Karo Syrup 2 cubes real butter (1 cup)
Bring to a boil, and cook to the "soft ball" stage - about 240 deg. Then add 2 teaspoons Vanilla
Remove from heat, stir in vanilla, and pour over popcorn nut mixture
Stir well until corn, and nuts are coated then spread on waxed paper and let cool for 2 to 3 hours.
Store in air tight container or zip loc bags to avoid excess humidity. Eat within a week or so, because it's made with real butter, and won't keep for a long time. I think the butter is what makes it taste so good.
Nuts notes: As far as the nuts go, I have tried many brands. Costco nuts taste like they have been bleached, and are not good in this mixture. I am sure I haven't tried them all, but I know planters nuts are good, and that they work well. Just make sure they are of good quality or it's just not the same.
You can vary the amount of nuts, and or corn to suit you. Some people like more nuts, less corn, some like more corn (especially when kids are involved, and you are trying to save money.)
Don't refrigerate, it condenses moisture on it and makes it soggy.
Don't leave it where your H can find all of it, or it will disappear, and no one else will get any.
Void where prohibited by law. Your mileage may vary.
I hope you shot 'em or somethin' first, as having screaming kids in a frying pan of hot beer doesn't sound like fun, even if they are brats! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
...boy, that was bad. I should probably not hit the "submit" button...
...but I'm a little goofy right now. Just got my abstract in with only 10 minutes 2 spare before the deadline!
OK, submit!
-ol' 2long P.S. I can even find a King Crimson song that relates!:
"No ball bagatelle incites your children to conspire. They slide across your frying pan and fertilize your fire! Still, you and Jones go madder, broken bones broken ladder, Hey Ho!" -King Crimson, "Indoor Games"
Yes, for you that was pretty lame. Thank gawd for the King Crimson lyrics or I would have been worried. LOL
I love your sig line btw.
make Eden here
There is a lesson in that I think.
Been thinking a lot lately about ACIM, and GB gave me a book called "there is a spiritual solution to every problem" by Wayne Dyer that I am reading right now. It's about trying to live in the higher vibrational energy of spirituality and I am really enjoying it.
It brought to mind Pep's thread about spirituality and relationships. ACIM says that relationships are the temple, not the church or the body, but relationships. I agree.
Thanks so much for the recipe. And you're right. My Beloved did do a disappearing act on that last batch. I can't say I blame him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
We haven't set a date but it will probably be this coming summer. As soon as we can afford to take his and my DD out to Lake Tahoe was the original plan, but now I'm thinking we may just have a BBQ out back so all our friends/family can come if they want. GB has a minister friend he really wants to marry us.
Me, I'm a Tahoe kind of girl and with the exception of my little brother and DD, don't really care who all comes. In fact I am kind of hoping he will give me a wedding gift of just telling me when and where to show up. LOL
For us it will likely be the summer of 2008. Although I somewhat agree with weaver on the running away to Nevada part, it seems that a party is in order. Right now I'm still leaning toward the Western theme. That way everyone but us can wear jeans, we can have a barbecue afterwards, and we can have a DJ who teaches everyone to two-step.
Having never before planned a wedding, I must say that the prospects are daunting. Planning the marriage afterwards is even moreso!
Is nobody around today to BS with? I am so slow at work lately that I can hang out here for hours. Should be reading all the new Regs and Presidential proclamations...but have no interest to anymore. I'm beginning to dislike this job. Love my office but hate the customs crap.
I don't know Excel JJ, so I couldn't do your job that is for sure.
T is kind of busy today though. Hope she doesn't start giving me dirty looks. LOL
Gray,
I don't know why you don't post much anymore. None of us are really anonomous. I'm not. I tell everyone I know to come here and read at the campfire...they just laugh. LOL
GB only asks that I not discuss the details of our R with anyone but him.
Oh JJ, I love to two-step! Was a bartender in Oklahoma, you know.
Weddings are daunting. I planned a wedding before (last time I was engaged), and now I just don't have any desire to go that route. I want to get married on the side of the mountains, something small and intimate.
When people have to travel to come, it is such a financial burdon on them. GB's family are mainly family people with little money. So I don't know. I'll leave it up to GB, he is the one with 10 bothers and sisters and it matters way more to him than to me.
I'm shocked. You know we all have to work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
LOL SS! You really must be slow this time of year, hey? Do have plants in right now?
We are slow as far as walk in traffic, but I am getting ready to take inventory, and also I have a trade show the last few days of the month.
Plants? Yes, we have operatives in most middle eastern countri........wait, that's not what you meant.
Yes - I planted turnips, and carrots in Sept, and they are doing pretty good. We had turnips last night for supper, and they are sweet with a little butter and salt. The carrots weren't thinned, so they are still small. Some things like these do better in the winter, when it's not so hot. They won't grow well at all in the summer here.
I should plant Peas now, if I want to get any this spring, but I don't know if I will. I could start tomatoes under glass now. Trying to decide - the glass was given to me by a friend who works in a door shop. It's heavy triple pane sliding patio doors, and It is difficult to move into the garden. I use bales of straw as the background and put the glass down on an angle with more straw on the sides.
Should I? Or shouuldn't I?
If I wait a few months, the decision will be made for me.
I read your recipe but no sugar or Karo syrup for us right now.
I haven't tried substitutions - it cooks into a candy like Popycock (which you can buy in stores around Christmas time.) Not sure how it would work.
I'm not big on sugar either, but for some things, I will sacrifice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I sent some (the popcorn stuff) out at Christmas time last year, and I was sending SLH a book I had picked up in a thrift store that I thought she could use, so I put in some for them too.
We have three kinds of grapes. The concord are the last, but they were all gone by mid Oct. I haven't made juice yet, but I have made some pretty good grape jelly.
The Boysenberry freezer jam is the best though.
My yard is only 1/4 acre. I do the best I can with what we have. For some reason, a connection with the earth is important to me. It keeps me grounded. (pun intended.)
GB makes grape juice from his grapes and he said it is just wonderful tasting. Makes tomato juice too. Once he and an old hippy neighbor had a banana bread baking contest because they ended up with a whole case of banana's for some reason. This old hippy gave me a paper sack full of garlic when I met him at his house for coffee(used a cowboy coffee pot and served it with honey and goatsmilk) with GB, and I commented that the Romans used to give their slaves garlic to keep them well. Well he called GB a few days later worried that I had been offended that he gave me garlic, based on my comments to him, and that I must have thought he viewed me as a slave. Did we ever laugh over that one.
Well I guess enough of the bs'g for one day. Back to the grindstone.
Weaver, I just don't know. Okay I'll write something.
I saw C4L the other day for the first time in a while. We had it out because I had not spoken to her in months, which was a bad thing. It's been a tumultuous time for her. At first I tried to explain why I'd backed off. My explanation was reasonable and also lame. She had this skeptical look on her face. I had no excuse for being a bad friend and we both knew it. She fought tears.
One time someone told me C4L was a manipulative drama queen skilled at ostentatious and inauthentic displays of emotion. What a laugh. I've seen her suffer and she always does it honestly and with her dignity intact. I asked her what's been going on and she would not say. Fair enough I thought.
She excused herself then came back and said my disappearance had really hurt her. I agreed that I'd let her down and that it was a chicken$h!t thing to do and if she still wanted to be friends I promised never to do it again. She said okay.
Five minutes later I was giving her personality tests (parlor games, you know) and telling stories and she was laughing her head off and begging me to tell her more. I thought to myself holy Toledo this is a sound individual.
I said you know what I love about you? And explained.
She hadn't been satisfied with my rinky-dink explanation, but she kept hashing it out with me. Some people would call her a hard-a$$. She was not buying any of the things I said at the beginning. But the conversation continued, and she never gave up on it even when I tried to take detours, even though it was painful for her to sit through. As far as opportunities to make amends go it was an embarrassment of riches. I told her I don't know if you realize it because it comes naturally to you, but it was incredibly generous for you to lay the truth on me and then sit there fighting tears while I slowly slogged my way from lame excuses to a sincere apology, which I knew I owed you from the start.
We didn't stick together long. She had plans and I had different plans. It was good to see her. I don't know what's happening with her family/ex situation but no doubt it's a drama. She referred to it once as "fireworks".
Don't leave it where your H can find all of it, or it will disappear, and no one else will get any.
That would be true if I got my hands on it, as well. I love caramel corn! Here's a recipe for those who don't like nuts with their corn:
1 stick butter (1/2 cup) 1 cup brown sugar 1/4 cup corn syrup 1 t. baking soda 1 making air popped popcorn (or two if you like to spread it around a little)
Pop the corn. While it's popping, combine the butter, brown sugar, and corn syrup in a heavy sauce pan. Make sure you have at least twice as much room in the pan as you think you need.
Heat on medium high until the mix starts to boil. DO NOT TOUCH IT. It's hot. Stir constantly until the candy reaches the soft ball stage (or the hard ball stage; it'll work either way). Turn off the heat and add the baking soda. Stir it in and watch the candy double or triple in size. When you're done being amazed, pour the candy over the corn and stir it in. It's best to stir lots, because it can be tough to get it well coated.
Now, this is the hard part. To truly complete the recipe, you have to make it on a Friday night and you have to watch The Muppet Show, The Dukes of Hazzard, and Dallas while you eat it.
Or at least, that's how it always went in my house.
Gray, what's up with ditching your friends from this painful part of your history? C4L in RL and us here? I have a sense... well. You never do admit it when I peg your emotions right, either, do you?
Tell C4L I said hi. And yes, that means you have to call her up specifically to do it. And reconnect with her while you're at it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
What am I trying to protect? SS, sorry - I don't know what you mean.
I would do well to explain better then.
Someone who is afraid to stick their neck out, is trying to protect their neck. Or their head.
What do you get by being withdrawn with C4L? Is it the energy it takes to maintain the relationship, or friendship, or whatever you want to call it?
Is it that you don't have the time?
I asked not for my information, but so you can identify it, and think about it. You need not answer here.
Gray, I thought it would be easier for you by now. I know you "have a life." I am wondering what you feel you are lacking now. I mean, one thing is obvious, but other than that?
Now, this is the hard part. To truly complete the recipe, you have to make it on a Friday night and you have to watch The Muppet Show, The Dukes of Hazzard, and Dallas while you eat it.
JJ, I love you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I was older than you are now when I finally realized that it matters nothing what other people think about me, so I quit worrying about it and decided to become whatever I wanted to become. To live my life as I wanted, knowing that those who would hold me back would dissappear into the background (in my mind) and those that lived the kind of life I strived for and to be like would reach out their hand.
I can't wait for the day that you realize who you are and your own value to others. The day you stand up and unabashedly, unashameably reach for what you want while saying this is who I am, and I'm pretty cool.
What you call getting therapy on a public forum may just be giving therapy on a public forum. You really helped me because you saw something in me and helped me to see that I didn't deserve what I got. You have the power, the personality, the intelligence to make big differences in peoples life.
I miss your posts because of their beauty, depth and often they were just plain fun to read. Your sincerety and refusal to compromise your beliefs shouts out in your posts.
I know exactly what SS is saying. Don't be afraid to really be yourself, you are a person who could lead. Don't hold yourself back because of fear, worry or shame...what an incredible loss to yourself and to others that would be.
As SS said, no response necessary. And it is the last time I will bring anything up like this to you, unless you ask. So don't worry about that.
Now, this is the hard part. To truly complete the recipe, you have to make it on a Friday night and you have to watch The Muppet Show, The Dukes of Hazzard, and Dallas while you eat it.
Or at least, that's how it always went in my house.
JJ - my best gf recently sent me the entire first season of Fraggle Rock. Tell me you love it too.
(Doozers are the cutest little thangs)
I think the past two days I was throwing a BF (Didja ever see White Chicks...lmao)
Here is what I wrote when above mentioned best gf innocently asked how I was doing...I know I copied some of you on it, but since dear SS asked, here 'tis:
[color:"red"] Had King ****** migraine this past weekend. Ended up in the after hours clinic for phenegern and dubain shot....for the first time in 17 years (the onset of my migraines began a month after Z was born) I looked at the needle. Now I know why my a$$ hurts. You see...when I have a headache like that I always gauge whether or not to go to the doc by asking myself, "Hey Kim...wouldja rather have your head hurt, or your tushy hurt?" When the answer gets to "Man, don't care 'bout the seatage area anymore...just shoot it and get it over with" it's time to load up to the doc's office.
Much more exciting...yesterday this happened:
I'm in a turn lane to make a right merge onto another street. There was a cute Honda Pilot in front of me...I remember when she passed me thinking, "hmmm...that's cute...wonder if it has a 3rd row seat?" And I made mental note so I could look it up on the net today.
She's ahead of me and the road is at a slight incline....we both were at a complete stop. All of a sudden she begins to roll backwards....no reverse lights....just la-la-la rolling backwards....
So I lean on the horn.
She keeps rolling backwards.
So silly me...I haven't let up on the horn yet, but somehow my not so logical brain thinks she's not hearing it and if I lean harder on it, it'll up the horn volume...so I lean harder...and the horn's still going and...
BAM!
She looks up into her rearview at right after she hit me. I'm all making the "what-the-eff-how-did-you-not-know-you-were-rolling-backwards-braintrust" universal signal by throwing my hands in the air and saying "Duh-DER" very snarcasticly to her when she glanced up. She makes the right and turns into the Shell station on the corner....but she turns in the drive area...not pulling thru to the parking area...and she sits there in the driveway. I had to pull around her to park.
I immediately go out and my bumper looks pretty bad...my license plate won't stay on...and she's sitting there yelling at her kid to get the h-e-double-hockey-sticks in the back seat....Red flags raise...if she was going to stay for the police why not pull all the way in...and why would her kid have to sit down and buckle up? Shore nuff, she reverses a little, and got the h-e-double-hockey-sticks out of dodge.
OH NO SHE DI-INT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(eyeroll)
Seriously...the Ohno and eyeroll were the first things that went thru my head.
And yet...da-da-dum! Because she raised the flags on the plays, I had already made note of her license plate number...(insert evil grin)
So I go into the Shell, ask them to call the po-po...give them the license #, call Nio...and w/in minutes of calling him, he had a handy dandy print out of ALL the vitals of the vehicle...names registered to, phone numbers, ADDY...and even the amount they paid for it (they got hosed).
I wasn't pissed about the bumper...it's just a thing...but for crying out loud... WTF was she thinking doing something so BLATENTLY WRONG IN FRONT OF HER KIDS???????????? WTF IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD? WHERE IS HER SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY??????????????
That's what put a booger up my butt.
So later, I go pick up the Wookie...and we go over to their house....and spoke to her husband (she wasn't home yet). He was GOBSTRUCK! She had different insurance than him, so he couldn't give us her info...but he told us when she was going to be home.
How much you wanna bet she NEVER thought someone would be able to get her for this??? How much you wanna bet she was BETTING that SAPD had their dicks in their hands and didn't care enough hunt her down for a little bumper damage? How much you wanna bet she wasn't gonna tell her husband...it was a secret between her and the kid?
(scuse my French and excessively ill mannered term for male naughty bits)
And how much you wanna bet she didn't have the foresight God gave little green apples to realize that you can't go screwing people like that...How much you wanna bet she never considered that someone might hunt her a$$ down and call her on her dishonesty?
You wanna hear screwy...even after she looked at me in her rearview...even after she pulled into Shell and stopped....she told her husband she DIDN'T KNOW SHE HIT ME.
Liar, liar, pants on fire. She must spend a fortune in chonies.
Guess what? The reason the world is so screwed up and me, me, me all the time is because of people like her, her, her.
Guess what also? I could've been sleeping with la emme other than a cop. You can bet THEY also have information at their disposal...and their tactics aren't nearly as nice as ours.
You don't screw people over like that...even over little stuff...cos you know what??????????
You never know when a uniformed Wookie will show up on your doorstep and call you on it.
And I will call you on it. That whole "it takes a village thing"? It's tattooed on my soul. It not only applies to children...but to EVERYONE...and it IS my duty to call on it...."Am I my brothers keeper?"
You're damn straight.
You don't like it...don't eff up around me.
Sorry about the language. I'm still mad. And no...I'd never had "called her on it" w/out the Wookie....but Geeze....Cass...what is WRONG with people? Where did they get such over blown senses of entitlement? Where is the concern for making certain children see the best in you...where is the concern that you bring them up to be GOOD, honorable people?
I am SO angry that people no longer hold themselves accountable...I'm so disheartened about the "mes" and "I deserves"....
Your needs are JUST as important as mine...as the waitress busting her hump to put her kids through school....as Joe Schmoe cleaning the pool...
Remember the Scarlet Letter? The good of the community came first...it came first for everyone in the community...WHY? Because without that bit of self sacrafice the community would die.
Why are our communities suffering so now...suffering with poverty...not just monetary poverty...poverties of the souls and spirits and families....why? Because everyone has shifted from thinking of community first to "me first", to "I deserve" first.
I won't allow it Cass. It's not right and I'm saying it and I'm going to keep saying it. I will say it loud, proud and you may be certain that I'm not going to stop saying it.
Enough.
Because of what Nio and I have gone though...because of what we've learned...how we've grown, I am saying enough.
Sorry. You got a dissertation on the ways and woes of the world and all you asked was how I was doing.
I'm doing well...I'm feeling a little (just a smidge) vehement today....but hey...better righteous vehemence than selfish negligence.
Right?[/color]
Oh...SS....thought of you last night...MADE SPAGHETTI PIE. Have you ever had it? Of course, I amended the recipe a bit. We're cooking the You on a Diet way...so everything is organic, and all pastas are whole wheat...but it was UBER NUMMY.
I don't know why I don't make it more often...and get this...the majority of the ingredients were leftovers. It was like BAM! Not the Emeril kind...the kind where you think...I got this, this, this in the fridge and VOILA! Kitchen magic.
Yummy, yummy, yummy, I got 'ghetti in my tummy....
Happy birthday Happy birthday We love you Happy birthday and may all your dreams come true When you blow out the candles One light 'mains aglow It's the love light in your eyes Where e're you go.
GC - while you question your self worth, there are those of us who innately know that your value is so great that it is unmeasurable.
But your worth (to us) is bigger than a million $. If you copped it today (God forbid), there are people who've never met you IRL who would think of you often and miss you sorely.
Now stop it.
We need to think happy thoughts and pixie dust cos I'm gettin' all misty.
We bought my son an electric bottleneck slide a few months ago, and his first amp for Christmas. ...of course he's almost 20 now, and he's been playing my old acoustic for a 2ple of years now. Seems 2 have some talent, 2, unlike yours truly (which is why it's in such good shape after 36 years!).
-ol' 2long P.S. Happy Bday, SLH! Read Dr Suess' 'Happy Birthday to You' 2 yourself for me, okay?
I'm so glad there are other people around who remember that Friday night lineup fondly. Ahhh, junior high. Those were the days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
And so, Kimmy, I'm thinking you're feeling a little disrespected, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Compassion is a good balm for the sould when ya get that way. And I like to look at flowers, too. It's not that being vehement is bad. It just takes a lot of energy. (J needs a nap...)
The thing is, when I see those old Dukes of Hazard reruns, I wanna crawl under my bed and weep.
I did not possibley watch anything so positively stupid, did I?
ROFL
On a more serious note, Gray, you know how I feel about you, too. You're amazing. Really. I wish you could see yourself as I and others do.
I am going to head out to Galveston in a few minutes for a picnic on the beach with the kiddos and a few friends. Ti is in NYC, but he will be back tomorrow for a few days before he heads to Omaha, so we'll do something nice together then.
I'm so glad there are other people around who remember that Friday night lineup fondly. Ahhh, junior high. Those were the days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
And so, Kimmy, I'm thinking you're feeling a little disrespected, eh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Compassion is a good balm for the sould when ya get that way. And I like to look at flowers, too. It's not that being vehement is bad. It just takes a lot of energy. (J needs a nap...)
just the writing it made me feel better.
I have a ton of compassion. You don't survive this without nurturing your compassionate side.
And...
Dunno
if
I
mentioned
it
but
I'm
insanely
happy
or
maybe
just
insane
(shrugs)
Whatever it takes, right?
I still wanna know if SS ever had 'ghetti pie tho.
The thing is, when I see those old Dukes of Hazard reruns, I wanna crawl under my bed and weep.
I did not possibley watch anything so positively stupid, did I?
ROFL
On a more serious note, Gray, you know how I feel about you, too. You're amazing. Really. I wish you could see yourself as I and others do.
I am going to head out to Galveston in a few minutes for a picnic on the beach with the kiddos and a few friends. Ti is in NYC, but he will be back tomorrow for a few days before he heads to Omaha, so we'll do something nice together then.
Y'all have a great night!
slh
There's something about the sandy grit in your sandwich that makes it taste better, imo.
Kimmy, Thanks for your story. It's getting more difficult for me to cope with........... in some ways, and easier in others.
I know we all have stories, if we think. It brought some memories flooding back to me, both good, and bad.
I have more tolerance now, than I used to have. More patience.
It affects me emotionally more though - it almost makes me cry sometimes. How can they ever be happy? It brings a kind of sadness. I think of what Jesus said in Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
How often it is that people turn away from the very thing that would save them, or bring them the happiness they look for.
I was part of a story about the other side of that coin. It worked out better for the one in the accident than yours did. They were more honest, and were rewarded for it.
SLH, Happy Birthday. I can't remember how many years, but you are young at heart, so It really doesn't matter. Many happy returns, always and forever.
Oh, and Kimmy, I like whole wheat, and the "on a diet" method of cooking too. I need it, (sigh) but often it is more enjoyable anyway. And thanks for remembering.
I'm getting ready to go away to the mountains for the weekend. With W and the twins. Love long weekends.
Weaver, Thanks............. you said it better. Keep it up, will ya. It makes me happy to see you do so well. Is the happy as good now, as good as the pain was bad back then? I hope its better, and continues to improve.
Is the happy as good now, as good as the pain was bad back then?
It's like stepping out of the darkness into the light, that is the difference and it is huge. But still it is like childbirth, hard to remember the pain in light of what came from it.
It was worth it to me now, it was a gift. I know that everyone thinks I'm a nut for thinking that, but I would not have grown or really began any kind of real understanding without that period of my life.
I feel calm, at peace, centered, cheerful and incredibly excited about the future. Not just for Paige's and my new life with GB in a new state, but because I know I am about to begin to fulfill my true purpose and I have never felt so close to God as I do now. Well that's not entirely true, but now it is different... I am finally on the other side of need.
How often it is that people turn away from the very thing that would save them, or bring them the happiness they look for.
SS, I posted a beautiful poem for FL and CN this AM and I think you would enjoy it to. It's like we all expect so little when we could have so much. Why are we all so afraid of happiness? Is it the shame that makes us ask for so little? To expect so little, to think so small and then to suffer so much when all we had to do was ask for what we really wanted and then allow ourselves to accept it?
So here's my poem of the day:
I bargained with Life for a penny, And Life would pay no more, However I begged at evening When I counted my scanty store;
For Life is a just employer, And gives you what you ask, But once you have set the wages, Why, you must bear the task.
I worked for a menial's hire, Only to learn, dismayed That any wage I had asked of Life, Life would have willingly paid.
~~Jessie B. Rittenhouse
Quote
I'm getting ready to go away to the mountains for the weekend. With W and the twins. Love long weekends.
I'm jealous. Have fun! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Oh boy you are asking the wrong person. JL is the one who is good at communicating.
Fl, if he had 0 feelings for you he would be gone.
If it were me though, in your shoes, I think I would become bright and shining, like a shining star. Nobody can resist sparkly things.
That's what I would do and let him come to me. Lovingly indifferent, mysterious...while making a happy, good smelling home. Happiness is infectuous you know, he won't be able to resist.
I might also start reading up on the Distance/Pursuit Dynamic.
That's what I would do if I were you. I'd try it for say three months and then gage the progress in the marital dept.
Is the happy as good now, as good as the pain was bad back then?
It's like stepping out of the darkness into the light, that is the difference and it is huge. But still it is like childbirth, hard to remember the pain in light of what came from it.
It was worth it to me now, it was a gift. I know that everyone thinks I'm a nut for thinking that, but I would not have grown or really began any kind of real understanding without that period of my life.
I feel calm, at peace, centered, cheerful and incredibly excited about the future. Not just for Paige's and my new life with GB in a new state, but because I know I am about to begin to fulfill my true purpose and I have never felt so close to God as I do now. Well that's not entirely true, but now it is different... I am finally on the other side of need.
Weaver, I know what you mean, and you are right on.
In a way, I wish I could stay and talk. The fire, and the conversation are both burning bright.
Where we live, it rarely snows. Where we are going for the weekend (35 miles away) it snows lots, and lots. Storm coming over shortly - in progress now actually. The twins want to get snowed in. Nice thought, but I doubt it. Wouldn't bother me though, for a while. I'm taking lots of books, some board games, and good food. I'm not taking my W, she's going with me. I like that part of life.
Weaver said: If it were me though, in your shoes, I think I would become bright and shining, like a shining star. Nobody can resist sparkly things.
Another profound truth surfaces on an MB thread. What a wonderful suggestion.
Those who learn to shine, and make it part of their nature, will be happy, and attract others who want the same.
Weaver, your sparkly nature is showing through so much now days. I like it, it really does look good on you.
SLH, Have a nice weekend. I see HE will be gone a lot in the near future. That used to be a huge problem. Is it still? I know I shouldn't worry..........
Kimmy, I had another post on the tip of my fingers last night - to you. I couldn't get on, it said too many connections. Now it's lost to me.
Thanks though, for everything. This life really is a test. I think you are heading for an A+.
Gray, I've been thinking a lot about you these last few days. I thought you were on MB less because you were doing so well, and had too many other things to do.
Is that not the case?
I don't mean to pry, but I care.
Hi J, There are a lot of feelings/thoughts connected with what is happening to you that haven't been discussed. That's fine, I think you need time. However, please know people understand, and pray for you, and care about the outcome.
>Those who learn to shine, and make it part of their nature, will be happy, and attract others who want the same.
Ohhh Mrs. B! A SPARKLY...Can I have it????
Sorry. Channeling the Secret of Nimh.
I know what you mean, SS...I think up wonderful, lovely words when I am not around the computer...words that make one cry with joy...and in the morning they have burned away with the burgeoning of dawn.
But de nada...they make me happy to think of them every night...almost like a game.
SS, he probably will be gone a lot in the future. At least the near future. Ti always sprints really hard the first year or so of a new job, as if he has to prove his worth. . . I just know that he (and we) can't continue at this particular pace. However, he has assured me that this overachiever behavior won't continue beyond the initial dash to make himself invaluable. Of course, once he makes himself invaluable, ther are all kinds of demands made on him. . .
But the good news is this: with his new interest in HNHN and relationship dynamics, he has made a ton of amazing changes that I had never envisioned, never even dreamed. In fact, it was a startling discovery to realize that he is far better at this than I am! So I have great hope for the future, even if it does take him away a bit more than I'd like.
I'm leaving work early 2day, cause it's CLEAR as a BELL (though it's also colder than a well-digger's [censored]!), and with any luck I'll get a good view of the comet right after the sun goes down!
Thanks for fixing that snow maker Gray! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I had a great weekend SLH. Just DD, me and a couple of her little friends. It sounds like you and Ti are doing so well lately. I'm glad.
Has anyone ever seen the movie "Iris" about a novelist who gets Alzheimer's? It was pretty good (kind of sad though). We also watched "Lavender Ladies" about these two old ladies who rescue a violinist that happens to wash up on their beach, which I absolutely loved! They are not new releases, but we have been trying to pick from the 2/$1.00 racks.
We didn't get snowed in. It snowed on the way up, but quit about the time we got there.
Temp was like where you live Weaver - Well, maybe not quite that cold.
8 below the first night 7 below the next two nights.
I know Weaver, Binder and Gray are used to it, but I'm not. I can't believe I lived in Canada for two years.
I had to wear a COAT. Imagine that - (grin)
Oh well, we pay for nice winters in the summer.
Had fun though, we had lots of fun. I read three books, went sledding, walked with my W, and kept out of any really bad snowball fights. (Just minor ones, with no deaths.)
Went to church in a really old small church building, in a very small town. That may have been the best part. Down to earth people, who seem to care about each other.
SLH, is it cold in Texas? We are having a cold snap here this week. The high is only supposed to be 40 today in town. Usually it's mid 50's.
Yes, how did the weekend go for everyone else. I want to hear that J continues the engagement high. I hope.
Hi Faithful......... I also want to hear that things continue to improve for you. I know there are bound to be bad days, but on the whole?
I don't see a lot of movies Weaver. I did see "CARS" and really liked it. "Lavender Ladies" sounds like it's about my speed. I don't know if I could handle the sad one.
Sounds like your weekend was good. I'm glad.
And Graycloud............ I hope your weekend was really good too.
It's not exactly an engagement high right now, SS. It's...
Hmm.
Okay, let me give you an example. Friday night, HoFS drove down from his house to mine. Usually he flies, but he'd thought that with a three day weekend, it would make a little more sense to drive. It turned out he could only stay two days, but that's a side story.
He arrived about 9:30. One of the really good things about him driving is that I don't have to spend the 2 1/2 hours it takes to get to the airport, pick him up, and bring him home again. Instead I got to spend that time working -- which is good because I have a major project to do.
More importantly, though, I also took some of that time to make my house more like the welcoming home that I want it to be. I polished some more of the silver, finished the last of the candlesticks, replaced the candles, and got the house as clean as I could in the time available. (Which wasn't all that clean -- some things, like taking out the Christmas tree, are really two-person jobs.)
I made us a simple supper, too. Sopa de lima I'd frozen the last time I made it, fresh bread from the breadmaker, and a fruit compote. Better, though, I got out the silver and the good china and the crystal glasses and set us a nice table.
All of that was good. I even got about four minutes to take a quick shower, refresh my makeup, and change from grubby cleaning clothes to romantic evening clothes.
HoFS' reaction when he came in and found candlelight, the smell of fresh bread, and a relaxed and sexy me? Very much on the wonderful side of things.
But even better than all of that was later. He was in sweats and a t-shirt, me in kung fu pants and one of his t-shirts. We were sleepy and relaxed, happy with the world. I looked at the set of his shoulders and the language of his body and it said, through what means I do not know, "This is where I belong."
It also said, "And I am happy here."
Something has certainly changed for us. I can't put a finger on what it is. But it's really good to finally be able to talk about things that we couldn't talk about before.
And Saturday night there was a different conversation, one where he supported and considered something that I really want to do, gave it his attention and thoughtful input even though it's of concern to him and not necessarily what he wants to do. That's very different from my ex. My ex would never have ... well, she just didn't care that much about what I wanted to do. She wasn't really ever interested, and I never felt that level of support from her. It's one of those things that I never knew was missing... but I'm awfully glad it's there now.
Weaver, I'll have to check it out. I don't get to see a lot of movies, but I generally like just about everything. Even Army of Darkness, LOL.
SS, you sound like you're having a blast in the snow, even if it IS cold. And I know Gray and Weaver have it plenty worse, but here in TX, we are pathetic, simple souls. There's a little ice on the roads? Close the schools! A few flurries? Close the government! And it's only 30 degrees . . .
SLH, I'm glad it makes you all warm and toasty. That's good, given how cold it's gotten! (I grew up in Wisconsin, so really, the fact that it was 25 degrees here this morning makes it feel like an autumn or spring day. Nonetheless, it's the coldest so far this year.)
SLH, here's what NIH says when I try to click on your second link:
"You have attempted to access an Internet site that the web-filtering program used by the NIH has identified as inappropriate for government use. This determination is in accordance with NIH policy entitled "Limited Authorized Personal Use of NIH Information Technology (IT) Resources Policy."
There's more, but it's all like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Coldest so far this year, or this winter? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Grrrrr. Crazy computer. The darn things work for me! They're just 2 pics that I had taken and I thought were a laugh. If you have the time, cut and paste them into your address bar and see if that works. (FF, I think you might have seen these already).
Is everybody safe and warm? I know this arctic air has cut off power, made roads treacherous, and caused over 50 fatalities in 9 states. That's a huge swathe!
We're pretty safe where I am in TX; sending prayers for warmth and safety for y'all, too.
SS, can you recommend a good but not too expensive camera ($250./300.) as a B present for GB? I know you posted what you had, but I don't know if that is what we need, might be too sophisticated. He lost his and he loves photography, and I would like to get some pic's of us and our travel's to post here sometime too.
My D just got a little Kodak EasyShare digital from her dad, and it seems pretty good to me, but maybe not sophisticated enough for him?
Well Weaver......... That's a tough one. What camera a person likes can depend on what they had before, and on lots of other things.
I have a big Pentax DSLR that was expensive, and has interchangeable lenses, and I have a little pentax optio point and shoot that I use when the big one is too much, or when I don't want to, or can't carry the big one.
Our High School used Pentax cameras for the yearbook staff, way back in the dark ages. Having liked them then, I bought one when we got married, and then another when that first one developed a light leak while on a backpacking trip.
I don't know if being dropped onto a big rock had a role to play in the light leak or not, but my W says it did, and that it was my fault. (grin)
So, now I am on my third large Pentax camera, and I love it. The small Optio is fun, because it is so small it will fit into a Altoid's tin. I can't believe how good the pic's look from the small one, and it does movies too, which can be fun sometimes when you want sound, or to capture more than just a static scene.
Because the Pentax Optio worked so well, all my married children have one now (that's five couples), and also my youngest son (not married) who lives in CA has one. Various models purchased over the last two years or so - they change quite often. Were I getting a small one right now, I would probably get the Optio waterproof version, because I spend so much time outdoors and in bad weather. I think it's right about $299. they have various models, with different powers of zoom, and also other differences which I won't take the tiem to go into right now.
Now, you know my brand preference, and why, but there are many good cameras out there these days. It's hard to get a bad one among the major brands.
One other reason I like Pentax, is that they make their own lenses. Most of the cameras you see get the lenses from another company. There are only a few that make the glass, and they are the ones that have been making cameras for a long time.
The feature set can change a lot from camera to camera even in the same price range. Most people ask "how many megapixels?" but the quality of the camera, the lenses, and the software used to process and store the photos inside the camera can make a lot more of a quality difference than the resolution (measured in megapixels.) Reviews can help you know what to get, but the review is often a measure of the bias of the reviewer, not how good the camera actually is. I frankly admit I have a bias - but most of the reviewers won't admit it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
If all you usually shoot are people - you won't need the zoom range that a person might need who was also shooting wildlife, scenery, and so on. Optical zoom makes a difference, but digital zoom isn't a help. All digital zoom does is cut out most of the photo, and magnify what is left using software - so it doesn't result in a good photo at all. If zoom range is important to you, take that into account before you buy. Look at the optical zoom numbers, but ignore the digital zoom - it's a marketing trick.
I can't tell you a lot about individual models from all the companies. They change one or two times a year, and it's almost impossible to keep up.
One fairly new thing in Point and Shoot (PS) cameras is shake reduction - which can help take a better picture in low light. It is usually found on cameras that cost more, but you may see it in cameras now around the $300.00 price point.
Here are a couple of links to some I would consider if I were buying right now.
I hope this helps. If you have questions, I would be glad to assist, but I admit I don't know everything. Probably there are others out there that have had good success with what they are using also.
It's good to remember you will need to get memory card to go with the camera, and if it uses rechargeable batteries, an extra battery is a good idea. These models (links above) vary widely as to battery type. AA's are easy to find, but make the camera much bigger. The rechargeable ones are more expensive up front, but last a long time (I am using my two from three years ago, and they still use the same one on the newer rechargeable's so I can get more if I ever need to.)
This was probably more info than you wanted, but I hate to just say "buy this one, it's the best." What is best always depends on they way you will use the camera.
No that wasn't too much, that was perfect, just perfect. I'm printing it out right now.
I've been hoping all day you would come on here and respond as I need to start looking.
...and wha-la, right before I have to leave work, you did!
Thank you SS!
SLH, I loved your pics!
My little brother took the cutest picture with his wife, his son, and himself... each holding one of their dogs, and made it into Christmas cards. It is just so darn cute and I am giong to make cute cards with pictures like that!
PS My bro's wife has been battling ovarian cancer for the last nine years. He had filed bankruptcy at one point after using every dime he could come up with to fund an experimental treatment not yet approved by the FDA which put her into a remission lasting a few years. Well it came back a while ago... and after exhausting the million dollar ceiling on his insurance, being told she could not endure anymore surgeries or treatments and basically that her life was over...
Her doctor (who came out of retirement to take her case) volunteered to fund this latest experimental treatment which has sent the cancer back into remission....
Yeah! She is doing really good right now! She is such a sweetheart (even though she is a Texan, born and bred).
Anyway, after the first time she was told to go home and get ready to die my bro took her to Italy to see Andrea Bocelli in concert and to a few other places in Europe.
They have been married about 15 years, I guess. She is 15 years his senior, but I have never seen a couple more in love, even to this day. My bro was 30 when all this started with her cancer, and at the same time had to deal with my parents deaths and a very demanding job.
He is a winner, and so is she. I just wanted to share the happy news, and the message that it isn't over necessarily when the doctor's say it is.
There's a great website with all kinds of reviews on digital cameras, called "Steve's Digicams". If you google it, you'll find it pretty fast.
I was going 2 suggest the SBIG ST11000, because it's 35mm format and thermoelectrically cooled... but you need 2 connect it 2 a computer and telescope, and without those it's several thousand dollars! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I've had a Canon Powershot S45 for a few years and it's very nice. I especially like that it can do automatic vs fully manual and everything in between including aperture priority which is my default. Downside to all those features: bulk.
If I were shopping for a digital camera today it would be all about the lens. I think the lens is everything.
but you need 2 connect it 2 a computer and telescope, and without those it's several thousand dollars!
Now this is why we don't ask you for camera advice, 2long. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I went with the little Pentax no shake camera with candle light function <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Got a good deal on Amazon ($255.).
Gray,
Please turn the snow maker down a little bit. Don't turn it completely off, just adjust it so we are not getting five inches every hour, okay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hey it's Friday...take it easy, we are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I just ran to the store to stock up. Got some movies, some food...and some Liney's hearty red lager. It's a homey, backwoods Wisconsin brew, brewed in small batches no less... and the Sunset Wheat tastes just like oranges. Gray and JJ are probably familiar with it.
I'm going to have a glass before I go out and shovel tonight, just to take the edge off of the bitter cold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I'm still around some, SS. Very busy at work though.
I'm busy at work too - much too busy for January. Trade show the 29th and 30th, and it's always fun trying to be ready to go.
I look at it this way - it's better to be busy at work, than out of work.
You wouldn't be so busy if you didn't do a good job. Right?
Hi Weaver !!! (SS waves)
Sounds like a good weekend for you!
Weaver, I probably should have told you, that one of my sons had trouble with his pentax. He dropped it in the snow while snowboarding, and he said it turned blue, and shivered and moaned the whole rest of the day until he took it to the lodge for hot chocolate. He says it seems to be fine now, except that it begs for hot chocolate even on moderately cool days.
I'd take it easy today, except I have TOO MUCH TO DO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Oh well, it's STILL better than being out of work.
and some Liney's hearty red lager. It's a homey, backwoods Wisconsin brew, brewed in small batches no less... and the Sunset Wheat tastes just like oranges. Gray and JJ are probably familiar with it.
I'm going to have a glass before I go out and shovel tonight, just to take the edge off of the bitter cold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Sounds like a "girl's beer" 2 me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
...especially when par2k from a glass! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Ol' weav just got off the phone with one of those, and she didn't like it too much.
Quote
Sounds like a "girl's beer" 2 me!
Well, I am a girl. Stick a piece of fruit and an umbrella in it, give it to GB, and he is in seventh heaven...and he's a boy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Hey Kimmy, I still have visions of you justa choppin' and kneadin' on that big, flat, pink slab of slate you have...
you know the one you were supposed to send to me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
"It was raining hard in 'Frisco, I needed one more fare to make my night. A lady up ahead waved to flag me down, She got in at the light.
Oh, where you going to, my lady blue, It's a shame you ruined your gown in the rain. She just looked out the window, and said "Sixteen Parkside Lane".
Something about her was familiar I could swear I'd seen her face before, But she said, "I'm sure you're mistaken" And she didn't say anything more.
It took a while, but she looked in the mirror, And she glanced at the license for my name. A smile seemed to come to her slowly, It was a sad smile, just the same. And she said, "How are you Harry?" I said, "How are you Sue? Through the too many miles and the too little smiles I still remember you."
It was somewhere in a fairy tale, I used to take her home in my car. We learned about love in the back of the Dodge, The lesson hadn't gone too far. You see, she was gonna be an actress, And I was gonna learn to fly. She took off to find the footlights, And I took off to find the sky.
Oh, I've got something inside me, To drive a princess blind. There's a wild man, wizard, He's hiding in me, illuminating my mind. Oh, I've got something inside me, Not what my life's about, Cause I've been letting my outside tide me, Over 'till my time, runs out.
Baby's so high that she's skying, Yes she's flying, afraid to fall. I'll tell you why baby's crying, Cause she's dying, aren't we all.
There was not much more for us to talk about, Whatever we had once was gone. So I turned my cab into the driveway, Past the gate and the fine trimmed lawns. And she said we must get together, But I knew it'd never be arranged. And she handed me twenty dollars, For a two fifty fare, she said "Harry, keep the change." Well another man might have been angry, And another man might have been hurt, But another man never would have let her go... I stashed the bill in my shirt.
And she walked away in silence, It's strange, how you never know, But we'd both gotten what we'd asked for, Such a long, long time ago.
You see, she was gonna be an actress And I was gonna learn to fly. She took off to find the footlights, And I took off for the sky. And here, she's acting happy, Inside her handsome home. And me, I'm flying in my taxi, Taking tips, and getting stoned, I go flying so high, when I'm stoned."
2long, that song is such a classic... it reminds me of that Moody Blue's tune that says "whatever we want to be, we will be in the end"...can't remember the actual song now though.
I hope your wife is beginning to find some peace with what you have been forced to deal with/do. I know how hurt I wuold be if it were my mom and sister.
Hopefully the ordeal is almost over and you can return to some kind of happy normalcy soon.
Okay this is for HoFS. A song I listened to this weekend that I think would be such a beautiful wedding song by Marc Cohn. It's really very pretty. (just in case you are shopping for such a thing HoFS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
True Companion - Marc Cohn
Baby i've been searching like everybody else Can't say nothing different about myself Sometimes i'm an angel And sometimes i'm cruel And when it comes to love I'm just another fool Yes, i'll climb a mountain I'm gonna swim the sea There ain't no act of god girl Could keep you safe from me My arms are reaching out Out across this canyon I'm asking you to be my true companion True companion True companion
So don't you dare and try to walk away I've got my heart set on our wedding day I've got this vision of you girl in white Made my decision that it's you allright And when i take your hand I'll watch my heart set sail I'll take my trembling fingers
And i'll lift up your veil Then i'll take you home And with wild abandon Make love to you just like a true companion You are my true companion I got a true companion True companion
When the years have done irreparable harm I can see us walking slowly arm in arm Just like the couple on the corner do 'cause girl i will always be in love with you And when i look in your eyes I'll still see that spark Until the shadows fall Until the room grows dark Then when i leave this earth I'll be with the angels standin' I'll be out there waiting for my true companion Just for my true companion True companion True companion
I found the lyrics 2 a King Crimson song I've never heard before! Heck, maybe I won't like the way it sounds, but the lyrics are sure interesting:
"Dig Me" - King Crimson
"It's here I sit and rust amid this ruin and rancor like tire irons Toothy grills and car parts before me...the acid rain floods my Floorboard, burns my pores, and rots my upholstry.. once I was Worshipped, polished magnificently, now I lay in decay by the dirty Angry bay...
I'm ready to leave I wanna get out of here I'm ready to ride away I don't want to die in here I'm ready to ride
My skin is metallic now, no longer an elegant powder blue... my body Unhinged and sleeping in the jungle of motor block manifolds and metal Relics... what was deluxe becomes debris, I never questioned loyalty, But this dead end demolishes the dream of an open highway...
* Finished song for friend's project. * Managed neglected finances. * Apologized to friend I offended. Wow was she grateful! * Reached milestone on Alaska Project. * Called parents after many days incommunicado.
Saturday TODO:
* Take cool new jacket to tailor. Must look good come spring! * Take skates to skate shop for repairs. It's about to get cold. Good ice ahead! * Deposit roommate's rent check. Must pay for beer! Bibles. I mean bibles. * Write lyrics for unfinished song. Stupid song! Won't let me finish it. * Get hair cut. Head's a mop! * Meet friend at music studio for work on recording. Making album! * Build "iso box" for recording guitars. LOOUUDD. * Swim. I miss the water. I broke my routine. I've been away for over a week. Bad GC! * Reschedule guitar lesson for friend's son. But just a few hours later than planned. His junkie father just died. No more flaky men for this kid! (Pat me on the back for this later.) * Purchase gear for Alaska. In March I'm spending ten days on the North Slope at a "research station" (a.k.a. arrangement of shacks and radars but at least they have wireless).
Possibility of getting all this done, even though I will fuel up with doughnuts first:
Acomplishments this week: I'm thinking, I'm thinking.....
Don't rush me..............
Saturday To Do list: Get ready for trade show (next week) Clean Desk (Same zero percent chance) Find Business cards Pack briefcase Pick up lawn mower from repair shop
Hm... not really. I just like a couple of Harry Chapin's old songs (there aren't any new ones, as you know. He bought it in a plane crash long ago).
I had a 2ple of girlfriends of sorts before I met my W. One, I had just 2rned 18 and she was 15. Met her at a tropical fish store where I worked, just a block from her HS. That lasted 3 months. I'm curious at times, but not so curiuos that I'd look her up.
After d-day, I deleted my profile on classmates.com. Dangerous place for married people.
The other sorta girlfriend is a friend of the family. I last saw her at my dad's memorial service, summer before last. No sparks, no fears. At the time, my W said "she's a good friend". I read all kinds of things in2 that statement, like "she wants me 2 accept RM as her "good friend"". Probably was true then. But withdrawal continues, and I don't think it is anymore.
I've got some woodworking tasks 2 do 2day, and I'd like 2 finish a new equatorial wedge I started making for my 9.25" SCT last weekend. Don't know if there'll be time, though. And it's cloudy.
We had a strategy meeting with our lawyer yes2rday afternoon. Mediation is next Thursday. Wish us luck!
Kimmy, desert tortoises are much better pets than turtles. No H20 environment needed so much cleaner terrarium. And they are vegetarians. No bugs or other little food critters on the intake end and thus cleaner output at the other end.
When we were kids, my parents let us have red-eared 2rtles. They were very cool pets. Brighter than they get credit for, 2. Once, when they were about 5 years old, we had 2 leave them with our local pet shop while we were on vacation. When I handed my 2rtle (His name was Yertle, of course!) 2 the pet shop owner, he stared at her intently with something like "dread", if a 2rtle can experience such an emotion.
And they were definitely "active" when we came 2 pick them up 2 weeks later.
I hope you've looked up the info on salmonella and reptiles as pets. Just be careful, okay?
2Long - We had a red eared slider named Fred. He was the best!
They are great pets.
As for salmonella...every critter carries it - even us - but birds and reptiles are the worst carrieres...it's a matter of teaching everyone to wash hands with soap and warm water. But, the kids WILL NOT be in charge of cleaning the tank or handling the turtles. They understand that the little guys are to look at and enjoy, not play with....we've already had chats about the rules.
We recently adopted a kitten from a shelter to be the brother to our cat sent by Bastet (the Egyptians believed that the cat chooses the human, not the other way around - Bastet was the goddess of cats). Thor and Pumpkin have made our 7 year old very concientious about taking care of critters. He grumbles about the dirty work, but ADORES the feeding, petting and purring.
I love that they are getting so involved. Leondra had a MORTAL fear of four legged critters (cos her biomom always tells the kids to stay away from 'em since they bite), and has now latched onto Thor and Pumpkin. She has to kiss them goodnight before bed....
All in all, I believe I'm turning into my parents.
Unfortunately, it is now illegal to keep pet horny toads.
Guess I'll have to be happy with turtles, cats, fish and Wookies.
That is my next tank. They have some GORGEOUS Mexican box tortoises. (the Wookie wants another Python...I dunno...we had one and she was sweet, but I thought our checkered garter snakes were cooler to watch - they'd fish for feeder fish...neatobandito)
I don't mind live feedings for the turtles. I think it's cool to watch them fish....
The kids kind of freaked out when I told them we kept pet tarantulas when we were kids (the horney toad ate 2 before we figured out how they "escaped")....I'd love to get one of those, too. I already have a small tank that would convert nicely into a spider-tat (like crabitat or turtitat).
One thing about most tortoises - they live almost forever. 130 years is typical. You will need to do some estate planning to provide for it. Shoot, your children will need to do some estate planning to provide for it.
Wow, that is a long time. Can you describe their eating and lifestyle habits, please?
I already gave up sugar and anything else even remotely tasty...so what the hey, hey?
And, why aren't your's still around 2long, or are they?
Binder, do you feel the same way? Do you know? Go ahead and tells us about it, so we can complicate things a little more in your head for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I mean it's only fitting, that is what we are here for... and since Gray won't let us do it to him anymore.
Is she nice, funny and loving? Does she move you? Can she gulp down beer and tell dirty jokes with the best of them?
Where in AK? Um... Mostly at the Toolik Lake Field Station, midway between Coldfoot and Deadhorse. About 150 miles north of the Arctic Circle, around 250 miles north of Fairbanks.
I have an old friend, well ok all my friends are old, who works at the Army's cold weather research station outside of Fairbanks. He gets to blow up lots of frozen things.
I did some field work along the Porcupine River a 2ple of summers in the early 90s. We'd fly 2 Fairbanks, then 2 Ft Yukon, then 2 the Porc.
1st year, we went up 2 the Lower Ramparts and tried 2 motor up 2 the Canadian border in our Zodiac (the only thing that would fit in the plane). Got as far as the Salmon Trout River mouth, before we decided 2 2rn back and get as much work done as we could in the Ramparts. Good thing, 2. We wouldn't have had enough fuel 2 make it back 2 Ft Yukon if we'd kept going.
2nd year, we flew 2 Anchorage, got a ride 2 Circle, and our bush pilot picked us up there and dropped us off just inside the Canadian border in the Upper Ramparts. MAN, was that a beautiful landing! We ac2ally descended in2 the canyon in a downpour. The pilot couldn't see the ground again until we were about 200 feet up. The "gravel bar" was all cobbles, and it was pretty bumpy rolling 2 a stop.
Since the pilot couldn't carry our fuel with passengers, we only had 5 gallons with us 2 putt around until he came back with our 2 30-gallon drums. He was delayed in re2rning for 4 days! We never saw another soul the whole time.
The Porcupine River is absolutely beautiful, if the weather cooperates (we had 3' swells on the river when it paralleled the prevailing winds, and 45F temps for part of the trip down 2 Ft Yukon.
I'd love 2 go back, but only for fun. The Porc is very popular with German canoists, apparently. They get dropped off where the Dempster Hwy crosses the Eagle River in Yukon, then float all the way down 2 the mouth of the Yukon and row up the Yukon 2 Circle. The Porc is mostly pretty tame, with riffles but no serious rapids 2 worry about. It is blue-ball water, though, so if you fall in you need 2 drop everything and get dry and warm again.
Watch out for the polar bears Gray, I hear they are a might bit more ornary than the little black bears we are used to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
And for heavens sake, measure the ice thickness before you take your sled out on it.
Wear a heated life jacket, just in case.
And no partying with the natives....unless it's a good party. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I think all us Cheechakos should track GC down in the bush and help him drink his brown liquor.
GC: Better bone up on your Robert W. Service. One of my favorite 'lite' poets.
:: A bunch of the boys were whooping it up in the Malamute saloon; The kid that handles the music-box was hitting a jag-time tune; Back of the bar, in a solo game, sat Dangerous Dan McGrew, And watching his luck was his light o'love, the lady that's known as Lou.
When out of the night, which was fifty below, and into the din and the glare, There stumbled a miner fresh from the creeks, dog-dirty, and loaded for bear. He looked like a man with a foot in the grave and scarcely the strength of a louse, Yet he tilted a poke of dust on the bar, and he called for drinks for the house.
There was none could place the stranger's face, though we searched ourselves for a clue; But we drank his health, and the last to drink was Dangerous Dan McGrew.
There's men that somehow just grip your eyes, and hold them hard like a spell; And such was he, and he looked to me like a man who had lived in ******; With a face most hair, and the dreary stare of a dog whose day is done, As he watered the green stuff in his glass, and the drops fell one by one.
Then I got to figgering who he was, and wondering what he'd do, And I turned my head and there watching him was the lady that's known as Lou.
His eyes went rubbering round the room, and he seemed in a kind of daze, Till at last that old piano fell in the way of his wandering gaze. The rag-time kid was having a drink; there was no one else on the stool, So the stranger stumbles across the room, and flops down there like a fool.
In a buckskin shirt that was glazed with dirt he sat, and I saw him sway; Then he clutched the keys with his talon hands my God but that man could play.
Were you ever out in the Great Alone, when the moon was awful clear, And the icy mountains hemmed you in with a silence you most could hear; With only the howl of a timber wolf, and you camped there in the cold, A half-dead thing in a stark, dead world, clean mad for the muck called gold;
While high overhead, green, yellow and red, the North Lights swept in bars? - Then you've a hunch what the music meant, hunger and night and stars.
And hunger not of the belly kind, that's banished with bacon and beans, But the gnawing hunger of lonely men for a home and all that it means; For a fireside far from the cares that are, four walls and a roof above; But oh! so cramful of cosy joy, and crowned with a woman's love -
A woman dearer than all the world, and true as Heaven is true - God! how ghastly she looks through her rouge, the lady that's known as Lou.
Then on a sudden the music changed, so soft that you scarce could hear; But you felt that your life had been looted clean of all that it once held dear; That someone had stolen the woman you loved; that her love was a devil's lie; That your guts were gone, and the best for you was to crawl away and die.
'Twas the crowning cry of a heart's despair, and it thrilled you through and through - "I guess I'll make it a spread misere", said Dangerous Dan McGrew.
The music almost died away then it burst like a pent-up flood; And it seemed to say, "Repay, repay," and my eyes were blind with blood. The thought came back of an ancient wrong, and it stung like a frozen lash, And the lust awoke to kill, to kill, then the music stopped with a crash,
And the stranger turned, and his eyes they burned in a most peculiar way; In a buckskin shirt that was glazed with dirt he sat, and I saw him sway;
Then his lips went in, in a kind of grin, and he spoke, and his voice was calm, And "Boys," says he, "you don't know me, and none of you care a damn; But I want to state, and my words are straight, and I'll bet my poke they're true, That one of you is a hound of ****** and that one is Dan McGrew."
Then I ducked my head, and the lights went out, and two guns blazed in the dark, And a woman screamed, and the lights went up, and two men lay stiff and stark. Pitched on his head, and pumped full of lead, was Dangerous Dan McGrew, While the man from the creeks lay clutched to the breast of the lady that's known as Lou.
These are the simple facts of the case, and I guess I ought to know. They say that the stranger was crazed with "hooch," and I'm not denying it's so. I'm not so wise as the lawyer guys, but strictly between us two - The woman that kissed him and pinched his poke was the lady that's known as Lou.
My W and BIL and I were planning 2 hike the Pacific Crest Trail from Mexico 2 Canadia in abouts 1978, until work responsibilities and my D came along.
We saw a spot on the news this weekend, I think, about a guy who'd just finished the hike and was starting on his way back. He was engaged 2 a gal. They were going 2 get married when he got back, and hike it again for their honeymoon...
Weaver, nay. And Toolik Lake is on the tundra, more than a stone's throw from the ocean, and no doubt free of polar bears. No seals, no polar bears, is I think the rule.
The creatures I need to stay on the good side of are commonly known as "Alaskans". I told a friend I was thinking I should get in a fight while I'm up there. I could use a good fight.
And also a girlfriend. Sucks to be alone during this bleak time of year. We're finally dropping below zero later this week.
I told a friend I was thinking I should get in a fight while I'm up there. I could use a good fight.
What, you can't get in a good fight at work, or here on the board like the rest of us? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I don't want GB to get hurt on that death machine, I can't bare the thought of it. He will never give it up though, and would not hesitate to tell me which lake to go jump in if I tried to tell him to.
That hike up the Pacific coast is something I would love to do, even still at my age.
TT, how are you? I asked a while back but you didn't respond, so I think you missed it. How is your (X?)H managing lately? Or are you taking care of him?
Hi Weaver, sorry if I missed your question before. Well, he's not my ex. We are now all under one roof but not in the same bed. I was driving around picking him up from dialysis and worrying about him so, when his lease expired on his apartment last summer, I made space for him at home. He had asked to come home about a year ago but I am the world's biggest procrastinator so it took me about 5months to make my mind up.
I have no regrets. There is no way I could have pursued another relationship knowing he was sick and on his own. He is coping well with dialysis and work but sometimes the sessions bring on other complications. Today, he ended up on oxygen because the cramps were so severe he passed out.
Surprisingly, I find we are getting along fine. I definitely took him back because of a sense of duty that I couldn't shake off (catholicism??) but I am pleased he is home. We have a bloody long way to go before I would consider myself recovered, but there is a comfort in having him home.
So - no hot passion for me. For now I'm quite content with financial security for myself and the girls. I'm off to London in a few weeks for my dad's 80th and life is generally good.
So - no hot passion for me. For now I'm quite content with financial security for myself and the girls. I'm off to London in a few weeks for my dad's 80th and life is generally good.
Hot passion is over rated anyway. LOL TT, I am glad he is home and that you decided to help him, mainly because you being the way you are never really could have done differently, and for your girls.
Having had at different times a very exciting life, a very wild life, a very turbulent life, and a life of quiet, peaceful calm...I will now only accept the quiet, peaceful calm.
One thing I had never had was a truly committed and loving relationship, never a legal marriage and so for me it was what I truly wanted, and needed.
Money is good, being allowed to care for and for your girls to live this caring is worth more than all the hot passion in the world...for now. And it must be what you have asked for on some level, because it is what you have.
I've been wondering for awhile what you had finally decided so am glad you posted an update.
2long, I am sorry for the hurtful things that were said on that thread. I know that they are not true, nor were they true about WAT. I can no longer stand to be a part of this community and see myself and my friends hurt. Not only that particular poster who I now believe truly is too far gone, but to see the very hurtful comments made by "vets" as well as newbies go unchecked and unchallenged way too often.
In the old days I would have jumped right in but it upsets me for days and I just can't do it anymore. Must be getting old.
My comments about GB's harley were a joke, I didn't realize nobody would get that. He reads here and I was hoping to get him to jump in and post. Jenny called me out on it on another thread. It hurts that people would actually think I could practice dishonesty.
I'm sorry you were pushed to the point of having to defend yourself and your beliefs. It's almost laughable really, it's so obvious who you are and what you stand for...that that poster would even call it differently and nobody jump in is beyond me.
That's why I'm out of here...the consciousness level on the board is at a level so low it is not really conducive to personal growth or to inner peace for ourselves as well as others, which is something I would have thought all would strive for.
There is nothing more for me to learn here, and trying to contribute and help others is not that safe, when it is only a matter of time before somebody jumps in and says something nasty.
Anyway you all have my new email addy I think (chanci99@hotmail.com) just in case there is a get together someday or something. The old one is disconnected.
I think I speak for all here in saying that we knew you were joking about the Harley. We certainly know that you and GB would have an open and honest relationship. You're just that kind of person.
As for that other poster's posts 2 me on those other threads, I'm just ignoring him from now on.
the campfire is a safe haven! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
We had two little sliders, too (Tuttle and Titi, for King Tut & Queen Nefertiti) and they were members of our family. I actually sat and cried when first Titi and then Tut flew the coop in our back yard, where I had moved them while I was scrubbing their tank. Apparently, the little buggers' sole aim in life was to escape the torment of their captors (namely, my kids) and make a run for it to the nearest creek, across two very public streets. I guess they thought their chances of survival were better, even then. Sad.
I had some pics of them up on MySpace, but I don't think they are there anymore.
Does anyone else feel like February can be a slog?
Well, every day in February a friend of mine is podcasting a new song from a local artist. The songs are generally short and many will have something to do with February or the winter.
So for something you can look forward to as you put your head down and march through this mercifully short month, visit www.minneapoliscast.com each morning.
A new song of mine will be there *sometime* during the month, I won't tell when.
Tut & Titi were tiny when we got them, but they both grew so fast. To this day, I can't tell you how they squeezed out of the overflow holes I had cut out in that pool. Dag-nab Houdinis!
We are considering getting a snake, too -- but are unsure what kind would be happy with our other assortment of dogs, cats, fish and sometimes ferrets, iguanas and sugar gliders (we babysit friends' critters often). I saw that you had posted one of yours that lived in a tank and ate feeder fish. What kind is he? You're happy with him? Is he easy to care for?
We've also had a python at one time. Her name was Ka. She lives at the Rattlesnake farm in New Braunfels now...she's very happy cos she's used for breeding....so she gets LOTS of snakey attention (it's cos she's BEAUTIFUL!...she is a beautiful with her snakey glory).
Went and saw my therapist today (he keeps me sane most days, LOL) and asked him what particular marriage books he might recommend. His favorite was the Five Love Languages. He says (even more than HNHN) he had seen more marriages changed because of this book.
Has anyone here read it? Was it really as good as he touted?
Both books talk about finding and meeting your spouses needs. FLL shows how we tend to give to our spouse what we want to get, which is not always what they want, or what they need. To me, it was more of a theory book, where HNHN was more of a how to do book.
Probably it's just how it came across to me though, I think it does have value.
The one that really helped me the most was "Love Busters" because that was more of a problem for me than not meeting needs. Perhaps that's why FLL was not as helpful for me, because my W said I was meeting her needs pretty well along.
The bottom line is that it was helpful for me, and I enjoyed it and learned from it. My W didn't like it as much, and she didn't finish it.
Since we got it from the library, it didn't cost us to read it.
SS, Have I ever jumped up and down and thanked you for the Mars/Venus book you sent?
I love it and apply it all the time.
LOL, I actually pointed out to Dr. that HNHN sounded very similar to FLL, but he stood his ground. For some reason, the fact that he was so fond of FLL made me indignant! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL. I am a Harley Girl Myself.:)
It seems like there are things to learn from all of them. Each adds a little different point of view.
FLL doesn't talk quite the same way about meeting needs, but I think it means about the same thing. Basically, you need to know what makes your spouse happy, and do that, and they do the same thing for you.
It does help to read it - because bringing these things to mind again often helps us see places we can improve or things we can fine tune. I never get it all the first time around.
I need to read Mars/Venus again. IN fact, I should do Harleys books again too. Just as soon as I get some spare time.
Leaving on a snow camp first thing in the morning. Boy Scout Klondike winter camp. Maybe even snow caves.
I checked Google Earth for where you will be. I found a Coldfoot, but every third place in AK is named Coldfoot. And there are about two dozen Deadhorse.
I tried to insert a placemark in this post, but couldn't get it to work. Maybe with more time.
Follow the highway north to the Arctic and that's Deadhorse. Search for "Prudhoe Bay, Alaska". Go south of Toolik Lake (and a little west) about 100 miles and that's Coldfoot.
GE is weird about revealing cities in Alaska. Not weird, but its standard "reveal towns of such-and-such-size at such-and-such zoom level" formula doesn't work well up there. Everything's too far apart.
The self-inflicted 2rmoil of MB has outpaced the marital 2rmoil I was once in.
You have my email address.
-ol' 2long, Qfwfq, T-zero
2L, I can't imagine what has been going on, but I for sure will miss you and your posts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Please come back when you feel up to it.
A hurting BS crawls into the forum needing serious, clear unambiguous MB advice and tools, but as soon as a certain person posts to it their thread spirals off into angels on pinhead arguments and fundamentalist tit-for-tat.
Kiwi, I loved A Prairie Home Companion. I'm not a giant fan of the radio show, but the fact that it exists makes me feel a small amount of hope for the world. I enjoy lots of the music, and I do enjoy GK's storytellin'.
I'm also a huge giant fan of Robert Altman. APHC is the kind of movie I'll get on DVD and watch on Sunday when the weather is bad.
GC, I didn't know much about it all till I saw the movie advertised. Then I found the radio show has been playing here for years (go figure). I guess we're like a midwestern city. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.
I've read a lot since and it sounds like a great movie.
The guy I sit closest to at the lab had sushi with GK a few weeks back. And get this - it was right after the show. I mean, they walked from the Fitzgerald Theater to the sushi place. That's right - GK does a show with stories about cute honest and down-to-earth midwesterners then he goes out and eats sushi!
To be fair, my colleague described GK as being indifferent about the dinner plans.
2long, I have his home address if you want to send a fan letter.
Hey campers - I have a meeting with a Judge, some leeches, and an XW tomorrow at 1:30, in a formal setting. Gonna formalize the custody, SS and CS. My leech saw a couple of spots where she thinks she can save me some money. (like not paying for XW's leech, and not paying back CS for 4 months, etc.) Of course - I am still paying!!
Think positive thoughts for me. Pray, if you do, for a positve outcome for my kids and myself.
It has been a stressful last couple of weeks, with a big event with lots of production and new technology also starting tomorrow afternoon at work. We are still setting up for it tomorrow morning. (The big kahuna decided on Thursday to add a couple of tech items that had already been cut [budget] - so I ordered the gear, and it has not come in yet.)
What a crazy life! But fun! I am blessed with great kids. My 13 yo dd is the apple of my eye. My 8 yo ds is also a fantastic young man, oozing with all things that make a son great. My 5 yo dd is a loving artist. Fiery like her mom, able to love greatly, and grudge greatly.
Pray for them especially.
Thanks, campers!!!
Now somebody get me a Seven and Coke, please. And pass the chips.
Don't give in to terrorism? I thought of that after I left, all upset the other day...about leaving and not jumping in on something that I knew was hurtful and wrong. Not jumping in ended up bothering me more than jumping in would have, I finally realized.
Wrote an ugly little poem filled with anger, even.
Is it better to stick around and fight something out if it causes bitter feelings of anger to do so? And if it is for someone else? Is it not only better to stick around and fight but required when it is someone else besides yourself being harmed? Words harm.
What happens to a gift if you don't except it? Who does it belong to? I thought of little things like this, and what is the right way to handle nastiness through words.
Anyway, TT emailed me and said to just stay here at the campfire and not read other threads. That's what other's do, I know. I'll give it a try.
I was so ticked off the other day at the spreading of falsehoods about our friend...the only outlet I could find was through heavy metal (Kimmy will understand this I think). And you know what? It worked, and I found peace again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
"What if" by Creed.
CREED LYRICS
"What If"
I can't find the rhyme in all my reason Lost sense of time and all seasons Feel I've been beaten down By the words of men who have no grounds Can't sleep beneath the trees of wisdom When your ax has cut the roots that feed them Forked tongues in bitter mouths Can drive a man to bleed from inside out
What if you did? What if you lied? What if I avenge? What if eye for an eye?
I've seen the wicked fruit of your vine Destroy the man who lacks a strong mind Human pride sings a vengeful song Inspired by the times you've been walked on My stage is shared by many millions Who lift their hands up high because they feel this We are one We are strong The more you hold us down the more we press on
What if you did? What if you lied? What if I avenge? What if eye for an eye?
[Guitar Break]
I know I can't hold the hate inside my mind 'Cause what consumes your thoughts controls your life So I'll just ask a question A lonely simple question I'll just ask one question What if? What if? What if? What if? What If I?
SLH, where I live cold is a fact of life. It is 3 below today. We deal with it the same way you deal with your god awful heat in the summer. We are finally getting snow, in fact gray could turn that snow machine off anytime now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Thank God my plow-man likes homemade cookies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I have no idea what the big city people way over (500 miles way) where graycloud is do in the cold. I don't think they get any snow like we do. Winter is no fun without at least three feet of snow on the ground, IMHO. (which we pretty much have now). We have dump trucks working most of the winter to cut down the snow banks and haul the stuff out of here.
Hey everyone! SLH, it was 89 here yesterday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
SS, I owed you an answer but ran off as per my usual MO.
Things are iffy. He lied to me about a lot of things but seems to want to turn it around. Will I stay m'd? Not sure yet. I have two very happy children to consider. For now, we live peacefully.
The court date went as I had expected. No suprises. In California, there is a guideline amount of CS and SS, and we agreed on that. She was asking for me to pay her lawyer and back CS to October, and that went away. I have more time with my kids than most fathers get (38%/25%)- basically the time I spend with them awake anyway. I found a slick attorney. He advertises on the web, as a father's rights attorney. You go in, and all you see is boobs. You get led to an office of a partner attorney (female) with noticable cleavage. She actually seems like a good attorney, and is the one you communicate with. No guy who just became single is gonna walk out of that office. Then the senior attorney shows up for the court date. He talked to XW's attorney for a while, we met for 1.5 hours in the lobby, we went in and presented a completely aggreed settlement to the judge.
I am not unhappy with the settlement. I see a future with at least some sanity.
It sure is nice in SoCal today. But it got cold tonight. But no snow.
""Cosmicomics" by Italo Calvino Synopsis by Kelly Evans
Each chapter of Cosmicomics begins with a blurb which sounds like the dry, tasteless extract of a physics, astronomy or geology textbook, describing how solar systems formed from nebula, the universe started from a point smaller than an atom, the orbit of the moon changed long ago, dinosaurs became extinct, space is curved, expands, etc. On each of these topics, our narrator, Qfwfq, immediately launches. His idiosyncratic voice, omniscient, blithering, self-centered, unerring, ridiculous, is recognizable, exactly consistent, no matter if he is talking about his life as a mollusk, a dinosaur, a moon-being before color, or life before there was form, when the whole family lived on a nebula, or in the point before space.
Most of Qfwfq's friends and relatives have unpronounceable names. Xlthlx, Rwzfs, Mrs. Vhd Vhd, the beloved Mrs. Ph (i) Nk0 (actually a special typeset must have been developed, now that I think about it, since my keyboard doesn't have all the options necessary to even write these names), Z'zu, De XuaeauX, etc. However, they, and he, have distinctly human foibles (neuroses, competitiveness, love triangles, gambling, boredom, incomprehension of their bodies and environment), although in most cases they are not human. And while Qfwfq tells tales of many different lives, seemingly beginningless, which seem to imply transmigration and transformation, all mention of death and birth is conspicuously absent."
You're so cool we could keep a side of beef in you for a month!
From one geek/nerd/sci-fi affecianado to another. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Why is all mention of death and birth conspicuously absent? Because they are an illusion? Is it supposed to be a parallel to our existance in some way? ACIM says that birth and death are illusions, is why I ask.
Both my brothers were sci-fi nuts growing up. You wouldn't believe the strange books and such we had laying around the house from those two. The oldest one double majored in Physics and Astronomy...PHD'd in Physics though. In high school the teachers were taking him out to dinner, just to have convo's with him.
And then they'd get me, lil sis, in there classes and wonder just where the ****** I originated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> When God was handing out brains, I thought he said sprains & hid behind the door. Or something like that...got teased a lot anyway. LOL
(can you tell my feathers are still fluffernated over that one?)
Yes, but hopefully he got really good tickets! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
We are snowed in Kimmy. Schools were all closed again today, and it's not looking good for tomorrow either. I'm actually still at work because I am dreading driving home...it is that bad. Most roads are closed. I can't even tell you how much snow we have gotten in the past two days.
SLH, are you reading?
Next week we are going to Fort Lauderdale for a week. Yay!
When God was handing out feets, you thought he said sweets and ordered two big ones. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
No, we are not allowed to eat the snow anymore. Acid rain and all that, yanno?
Kimmy you had snow growing up? I thought you came from Appalacia. I bought all those books and went on a trip there...here I thought it was your kin folk. I'm serious I really thought that is where you grew up. I did try a few things in those books too, but I had to draw the line at drinking terpentine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Schools closed again today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
My kin are from there abouts. My grandma was a coal miner's daughter (say that without breaking into song).
I was born in KY. Mom has a story about when she was teaching there the coal miners' all purpose healing aid was coal oil. One little boy in her class got a lead pencil broken off in his finger and all his mom did was soak in in coal oil. My mom had to twist their arms to get him to a doctor (he was running a high fever and his whole hand had swollen up). Poor baby.
We had snow in the big D area (where I grew up). Just enough to make snow ice cream.
"These bets, obviously, were long-term affairs, more than the others; not like some cases, where the result was immediately known. "You see that Sun over there, the one being formed with an ellipsoid all around it? Quick before the planets are formed: how far will the orbits be from one another?''
The words were hardly out of my mouth when, in the space of eight or nine--what am I saying?--six or seven hundred million years, the planets started revolving each in its orbit, not a whit more narrow nor a whit wider.
I got much more satisfaction, however, from the bets we had to bear in mind for billions and billions of years, without forgetting what we had bet on, and remembering the shorter-term bets at the same time, and the number (the era of whole numbers had begun, and this complicated matters a bit) of bets each of us had won, the sum of the stakes (my advantage kept growing; the Dean was up to his ears in debt). And in addition to all this I had to dream up new bets, further and further ahead in the chain of my deductions."
I've seen ads for Sport Utes (Spoots) from Fjord and Chebby claiming to be 'crossovers.'
Is this like those pesky germans calling their BMWs (which I think I heard once, stands for "Break My Window") "SAVs" for Sports Activity Vehicle?
Yecch!
I believe in calling a shovel a shovel. And so I propose we go back to the beginning.
NO MORE MINIVANS! So, never mind VW invented the microbus before Chrysler called the concept a minivan so they could claim they invented it.
Minivans are really just station wagons.
And station wagons are just renamed depot hacks.
So, all you soccer moms out there! You knew years ago that it wasn't whether you could fit a 4x8 sheet of plywood in the back of your Mopar depot hack that made or broke the deal when buying a new vehicle! It's how many soccer players you can accomodate!
Depot Hacks! (I don't own one, but if I did, it would have a brass radiator and carbide headlights!
Hey, Kimmy. My grandpa was an Irish hardrock miner.
He had the strongest arms of anyone I have ever known, bands of steel. But you would never know just by looking at him.
Q, I have a carbide headlamp. I wear it on my head, too. For spelunking. Don’t use it any more – too hard to find carbide and it’s considered bad form in most caves now. I keep it for sentimental reasons, of course. (DS got a kick out of carbide. Tried to blow up the shed.)
I'm here for a moment. Here, firewood to keep things warm. And hot coffee.
It's starting to snow here. It's supposed to snow tonight and then, horrors, ice tomorrow and tomorrow night. If it were ten degrees colder, it would be a 20-inches-of-snow event. Instead, it's going to turn out to be two inches of heavy snow and then a bunch of ice and maybe rain at the very end.
Yech.
Weaver, 2Long, I'm sorry for the ever-and-ongoing religious debates. Sometimes I go to find those things here. But these days, I have way too much to do to go trolling for, well, is it fair to call that kind of stuff trolling? It almost seems like it is.
I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said, "Marriage: One man and one woman."
I wondered if it was anyone I knew from here. Isn't that odd, to see a bumper sticker that attempts to invalidate a dozen years of my life, and all I think is, "Huh. Wonder if I know that person."
I suppose that says something. I'm not sure what, though.
Q - I'd rather walk through 5 bazillion miles of burnt gorilla [censored] barefoot than to drive another minivan.
You're a good person, Kimmy!
Quote
Nothing has ever held a candle to my Westfalia campervan. I 'spect nothing ever will either.
That being said, I did purchase a "crossover" SUV this past Saturday. This is a picture of the model I got.
Screw the crossover! I want 2 see a pic2re of the Westfalia! I have a West-by-God-falia myself! ...only the 2wits at VWOA won't import the full camper, so it's a weeekender. Did you know that there's a VW camper in Europe called the "Californian?" Can't get one in Calidamnedfornia, though!
Kimmy, you quack me up! You are way too funny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
18 below today! BRRRR Two more days and we are off to sunny FLA. YAY!
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I wondered if it was anyone I knew from here. Isn't that odd, to see a bumper sticker that attempts to invalidate a dozen years of my life, and all I think is, "Huh. Wonder if I know that person."
I suppose that says something. I'm not sure what, though.
Did you ever read "Stranger in a Strange Land"?
The thing about MB is that most people are very eager to tell you what they think so you don't have to worry too much about forked tongues. I like it here for that reason. I know that people will usually be pretty straight forward about what they really think, if given the safety to do so. Double edged sword though. It is so important to be able to express your ideas freely, without fear of retribution or disrespect. Anything less restricts us from evolving. It holds us back. It makes us paranoid. I fear posting sometimes because I think someone is going to come up behind me and tell me how stupid my ideas are. And when I see it done to someone else it makes me a crazy person. That probably says something about me...mirror of some kind maybe.
Our buisness' phone # is 877-xxxx...well, we've been getting calls all DAYUM day from people wanting us to take us of a SPAM fax listing. I try to tell them that the number on the fax is prolly an 877-xxx-xxxx number, and since they didn't dial the number one before dialing the rest, the call is going through as a local call.
BUT!
(you knew there was a BUT!)
Do you know how many people out there DON'T EFFING BELIEVE ME??? They are rude and ugly and mean and I'm fed up!
I just got a hispanic lady calling FROM A LOCAL BUSINESS SCHOOL ream me a new one...because I should "call the 877 number and tell them our business is getting mixed up with theirs!"
EXCUSE THE EFF OUT OF ME!
I told her I am too dayum old to deal with people who have not yet learned to dial a phone properly.
It's been an awful day anyway.
One more thing...$50...$50 freaking dollars...
For what?
SIX DAYUM PILLS.
I just shelled out $50 for six pills the doc Rxed me to stave off migraines. I had to take one because shelling out $50 shocked the hayel out of me. Phuckers. This is the doc that only allots 5 mins and I have to tell her my ailments as she is jetting out the door AND she wouldn't see Nio and I together even tho we requested it (but we only found out AFTER showing up for the appointment). I'm so zarking fed up with her, I am joyfully writing a letter telling her where to stick said pills sideways, and telling her that there is a special place in hayel for her...I know, because I just Expedia.commed her some reservations....along with all the jerkfaces that haven't learned to use a phone properly.
I'm going to the dentist tomorrow... they called it a "filling" until I scheduled the appointment and now they've switched to calling it a "crown", which means it's only 50% covered by my insurance as opposed to 80% for fillings.
One of my colleagues told me "you should talk to [other colleague]'s dad. He's a dentist."
"That would explain the sailboats she talks about" I said.
Haw haw. I'd say one of the better known murder ballads is a song called "Hey Joe" which has been covered a million times most famously by Jimi Hendrix.
Murder ballads are ballads in which someone is murdered. Often the victim is an unfaithful spouse (as in "Hey Joe").
My favorite is "Goodbye Earl" by the Dixie Chicks. Google it and watch the video on youtube. It is funny. (of course - I only know about it because my 13yo DD showed it to me.....)
I helped the kids make valentines for their mom this morning. Then took the kids to deliver them at work. I get a little satisfaction in knowing that people where she works knows what she is (liar, cheater{one co-worker lady has forbidden her co-worker husband from even talking to her}), and that the man she lost is a great dad.
Is that twisted, or what?
Just watched Lion King with the kids this week. One great line - Simba says to uncle Scar - "Your so weird."
"You have no idea." Scar replies....
Happy V-day - for those that have one. Oh - wait - its over. Nevermind.
My favorite is "Goodbye Earl" by the Dixie Chicks. Google it and watch the video on youtube. It is funny. (of course - I only know about it because my 13yo DD showed it to me.....)
Does "Poor Jud is Daid" qualify?
Particularly my own rendition, when I kilt ol' 2long off in 2002...
Mc Tavish is dead, and his brother don't know it, his brother is dead and Mc Tavish don't know it, They both lie dead in the very same bed, and neither one knows that the other is dead.
This song is sung to the tune of The Irish Washerwoman, a traditional Irish song. Sing loud, with vigor. Just a quick and silly song. It is sung in 'a round' becoming faster and faster and faster and faster and....
Most of the songs that I know the words to, I learned in the Boy Scouts.
Our buisness' phone # is 877-xxxx...well, we've been getting calls all DAYUM day from people wanting us to take us of a SPAM fax listing. I try to tell them that the number on the fax is prolly an 877-xxx-xxxx number, and since they didn't dial the number one before dialing the rest, the call is going through as a local call.
BUT!
(you knew there was a BUT!)
Do you know how many people out there DON'T EFFING BELIEVE ME??? They are rude and ugly and mean and I'm fed up!
At least you could have some fun with it. Start asking what the id number is on the junk mail. Click the keyboard into the phone, say "OK" and hang up.
You mentioned Big D - do you still hang out around there? I moved from there, to the far southwest corner of the continent. It did not snow here.
Pops says it is cold back Big D way, though.
Maybe you should just start hanging up on em. That would be the least amount of stress and effort, all things considered.
Thanks for the vote of humanity.
DANG IT. I have a crush on another woman. She sings (very well), seems to like me, has a good reputation. But I am just not quite ready. Still sorting life. DANG IT.
Hey FAR. I know a boy who had a crush on a girl when it was too early for him to be doing that stuff. They had a rough time for a couple years while they were both staving off doing anything about it. It made them much more solid in the end, though. You know how to do the right stuff. Keep it to stuff you're willing to tell us about and you'll be jes' peachy.
And yes, weaver, I've read Stranger in a Strange Land. 'Bout a hunnert times, give or take. That and all Heinlein's other stuff (Time Enough for Love, Moon is a Harsh Mistress) led me to believe polyamory was ok. What did I know? I was 12 or 13 when I was reading it. Seemed plausible to me. *sigh*
Anywho, yeah, I getcha about the ideas. It's good to know where someone stands, if they're straight with you. Out in the rest of the world, it seems hard to find. There's a lot of back stabbing out there.
Recently, I have had to "justify" my "other job" at work. Yes, folks, someone came across my bio at SYMC and decided that I must be taking work time to do all the stuff I do for them. And further assumed that I must be getting paid to do it. The person then went to the president and VP of our company to complain.
Luckily, I told the boss about my involvement with SYMC the week I started doing it -- 4 years ago. He asked me for a formal memo for the record giving him the information he's had verbally for all this time, and will hang onto it in case there's further complaining.
It's very odd, the stuff people gossip about. I suspect they wouldn't have done it if I were listed as a pastoral counselor with my church, or something like that.
“It's very odd, the stuff people gossip about. I suspect they wouldn't have done it if I were listed as a pastoral counselor with my church, or something like that.”
I wouldn’t count on the second sentence. The first though, you can take it to the bank.
I’ve read all Heinlein's stuff too. Starting right in the middle of SIASL his writing changed into just that of a dirty old man. It went from what could be called good hard SF (Science Fiction) to just soft porn.
The transition between part 1 and part 2 of SIASL is obvious. I read later he had a stroke right at that point in writing SIASL. It took about a year for him to start writing again. But he was changed into that dirty old man.
I'm pretty sure it was Glory Road that was his 2rning point 2 dirty-old-manness.
I love his older stuff. I also read Glory Road and SIASL, both when i was a teenager, and thought I liked soft porn Skiffy novels. But I can honestly say I've never read anything newer.
By far my favorite: Time for the Stars.
I read that to my wife the summer before we got married. In one 4-hour period. On a beautiful summer day up Indian Creek east of Manderfield, Utah. Sitting on a rock in the middle of the creek. My MIL and BIL came with us, but they were way "up the creek" fly fishing.
I don't think I identified with Heinlein's characters in GR and SIASL at all. I was always monogamous. All my crushes and the one or 2 GFs i had before I met my W ripped my heart out when we broke up. Then my W did, but that was later.
I sometimes wonder if I'd learned the lesson I learned this time, but 35 years ago instead, what would my recovery have looked like this time?
Oh well. That's not where I went, and this is where I am.
Had a great Buffalo chicken sandwich in Old Town 2day... ...and my W and I bought a 900 dollar chaise and ordered some sectionals 2 go with it.
Hi J, It does hurt when people try to sabotage you behind your back. Or even to your front.
I can imagine your feelings, I think most of us have been in your shoes. Sorry - hope you find a band aid that works for this as well as the ones your mom used when you were small. Doesn't HoFS have some of the new kind that work over the telephone for most things?
After Heinlien changed his writing style, I gravitated to Asimov. He was pretty safe.
Thanks SS. I don't know if my advice is helpful. Some people are obtuse enough that you don't know whether or not it's worth it to even try... but now and then I get motivated. It makes me sick to see good men treated badly, and it makes me crazy when they suck it up or neglect to fight back for fear of alienating their rotten WWs.
In popular culture men are commonly thought of as the cheaters.
There is something to that, but there's something else: in the U.S. at least, the following is documented: divorced men who did not initiate their divorces suffer from depression more often and for a longer time than their female counterparts. It is not unusual for men whose wives divorce them to continue experiencing depression as long as five years after their divorces [citation missing but I have it somewhere].
I reckon in the case of male BS, that depression often arises because losing your wife to another man gives you an instinctive feeling of having lost your status in the community, and for a man, even a passive, non-alpha type, that status is important and losing it is very serious. One of your core values, the need to feel you have social status, dictated in large part by your success with women and hard-coded into your DNA, has been broken. Even if you feel in an abstract way that you have done nothing wrong and that you are the bigger person and even though everyone who knows you has said they admire you and believe you handled the whole thing like a champ, you walk around with this eradicating feeling of having been defeated by an inferior rival and rejected by a woman who has previously sworn to never reject you.
Sorry to go all Gorillas in the Mist about this but it's true.
For women, another man will always come along. That's normal. From that perspective they're wired to bounce back quickly. For men, another woman will not come along. On the contrary. Historically at least (and you realize this instinctively) you're likely to be ostracized by your community if another man steals your mate. The isolation that naturally occurs for a man after a divorce does an efficient job of simulating this feeling of having been thrown out of the community. No matter how many friends you win in the divorce, it's likely that there will be Saturday nights when nobody calls and when everyone is busy, and that is something that never happened when you were married because your mate was always around.
Seems like there's a book in here somewhere. Or at least a lengthy article.
I was visiting a friend the other day. She was friends with my ex (they went to H.S. together) and has seen her once or twice since everything happened, but I'm much closer with her now than my ex is. I don't remember how it came up but my friend started comparing the way my ex and the OM interacted with the children they had with them during a visit some time in the past. I felt that ole familiar sensation, that salt-on-the-wound feeling. It hurt a lot. I wanted to lie down. After my friend's son left the room I told her that it was difficult, impossible really, for me to converse casually about those people. She said, "Really? But you're so much better off without her. You seem like you have a really good life." All I could say was "It still hurts a lot." This friendship is the one situation in life where my past regularly comes back to bite me in the a$$. I'm keeping it though. This woman is an excellent person, even if she doesn't entirely get it.
Had trouble hearing everything though. The bass kept fading in and out and it all sounded muted, as if far from the mics, no matter what I tried. I don't think it was connection problems. It sounded like it was in the recording itself, actually.
I mixed the bass low and computer speakers definitely do not help it any. Nothing fades in and out though. On my stereo at home there is nothing peculiar about the recording.
Interesting. There were numerous patches several seconds long that faded to the point I could barely hear. I guess I need to check my speakers/audio driver.
But like I said, I liked it. In fact, I thought it ended too soon. I wanted more.
There you go, practicing intermittent reinforcement on us.
FF, JJ, Weave -- how goes it, girlies? Where's everybody been lately? Am I behind the times because I rarely leave Gray's thread? =(
GC, I loved the song. I even went to the MS link to have a listen to some other ones y'all had put out. Already have some faves -- good stuff. If you talk to the Powers That Be that add friends to the group's MS page, put in a good word for this neighbor. I'd love to endorse what I heard on my own page.
Appy -- "intermittent reinforcement" -- thought of you and laughed out loud when I heard that first song. You've got a way with words, my friend.
SS, you've been awful quiet lately, for you, anyway. =) How have you been, man?
Hi SLH. I wondered where this thread got off to. Too lazy to actually look for it though, I guess.
I can't listen on my computer. I don't know what's wrong.
Gray, I agree with what you wrote. It seems like guys have such a harder, longer recovery period than women do. Probably for the reasons you mentioned. At least the ones who don't use band-aids to cope.
The guy I dated who had so many problems (Dave) still wasn't over his XW who had an affair and left eight years or something earlier and I think it was because he used alcohol and denial to cope. Doesn't work, only prolongs and complicates things even more.
Yeah, Weaver, I agree about Gray's remarks being pretty accurate.
Woman (usually) have plenty of opportunities to get an ego boost (and thus, a boost in self esteem, which aids in recovery) by simply being out and about, while men have to put themselves into a more vulnerable position before this happens. I'm pretty old fashioned, but I do think it would be neat to see a woman ask a man she really likes out to lunch or something. Would most men find this attractive, or too forward? Hmmm.
Having said that, though, I will say that I think many women are more prone to melancholic or depressive episodes, as well as poorer self-esteem in general, which can hinder their own recovery periods.
Oh, dear. i'm babbling again. Who died and made me a psychologist?? =)
SS has been........ ah......... well, he's been under the gun at work. It seems like time goes faster, and faster, but my brain goes slower, and slower. These two, when put together, don't translate into increased productivity. (grin)
SLH, whatever happened to your baby? I haven't heard much lately.
Weaver, do you have a time table for all this stuff that you are going to do? Did I miss it?
Gray, Do you have your summer vacation planned yet?
ROFL. SS, are you confusing me with some other SLH? The only "baby" I have starts kindergarten in August. And much as I love her, I can't wait. I want to take some serious photography and graphic design classes.
Probably not soon resolved. Take longer to explain than I have - mostly software upgrades in store, and it cascades down and requires more changes for web site, and that requires changes to some business practices.
Also, this is trade show season, when we write orders for fall, and we take inventory, and count the whole store. Count is finished, but we are tracking down errors.
We try to do all these around normal business.
SLH, your H did take a job that gives him vacation time this time around, DIDN'T HE????
Vacation? Mmmm. . . in theory. He works for a fantastic company now, just huge, with all kinds of benefits and phenomenal pay. Of course, I would have to tear him away from the computer, where he works day and night. . .
No, it's not that bad, really. But deadlines do suck, don't they? =)
I didn't know you had a web site, SS! If you still have my email, would you send me the link? I'd love to see what kind of products your family offers. Who knows, I might have need of them. . . one day if we ever go on VACATION. LOL.
Hey, Appy. Thanks a lot. I'm dabbling a lot in photography, graphics & web design, and making a small name for myself in the local horse world. It's not a lot, but it's rewarding and pays some. Keeps me off the streets. =)
How have you and yours been? Have I missed a lot you've put on other threads?
Weaver, do you have a time table for all this stuff that you are going to do? Did I miss it?
Well, right now I am in the process of moving into my little house. The one my sister has been renting. She is going to buy the big house on land contract from me, along with the bungalow I rent out back. It was kind of a compromise to get he out of that little house without the kind of battle 2long has been dealing with.
The economy is so bad here right now that I am very thankful to be selling it to her on land contract and getting it off of my shoulders. I hate being a land lord all though I have been very lucky with the bungalow renters.
Anyway P and I are excited to get back into our little house. It is small and cute with a big fenced in yard. We were very happy the years we lived there. It just has a good energy about it.
She goes with her dad this summer and we plan on moving to Green Bay this fall for her school.
But I don't know for sure. I am thinking now that I am not in such a big hurry to get married. We are so compatible and we get along so good that I am just loving being enraged, I mean engaged. He is in more of a hurry than I am. He is so worried someone else is going to come along and steal me away. I wish I could alay (sp) his fears because that just isn't going to happen. I guess in time he will learn to trust that I am in this with him forever.
He is always in MS and LA anyway, with his business. We'll see on the wedding plans later in the summer.
A single mom who works full time with a big house to care for has almost no extra time. GB takes up whatever extra time I do have.
No other goals right now SS. Like you said time goes faster and the brain goes slower...LOL Too funny!
SLH, it's nice to see you posting. Did I say that already?
In our case, we're still being very generous with my SIL, though she'll never be able 2 appreciate that.
We mediated in January, and she agreed that if she couldn't buy the house from us she would let us sell it and we'd split the equity. Since she's not been paying rent for several months now, but the mortgage still needs 2 be paid, she's agreed 2 have the monthly expense deducted from her share of the sale price, plus capital gains and stuff. So, if it doesn't sell in a year or so, she may not make anything, other than having had the chance 2 continue living there until it sells without paying rent.
I don't think a land contract would be legal in CA, but I never got so far as needing 2 know...
I'm forfeiting any kind of a down payment, and will not get a lump sum until the 7 year land contract (or 9 if she decides) is satisfied. (lump sum at the end)
I believe you said you wanted to sell it to pull out equity to help your DD and SIL buy a home. Will you still be able to do this?
My dad gave me the down payment ($7000.) on my first house and it was a gesture I will never, ever forget. It meant so much to me at the time and still does.
I didn't want to sell my big house and bungalow as it is a good investment property, but I wanted to move back into the little house and rent the big one out (for more than sis would ever have agreed to pay to me) hence the compromise. But now I am very glad to be done with it! What a weight lifted, really.
My D and SIL won't be ready 2 buy any time soon. My SIL has higher standards than they can currently afford. But that's okay. Their business. We will keep looking in2 the possibility of re-investing in something they might want 2 own, though, and see what happens. Since our 2nd house is an investment property, we need 2 reinvest or pay capitol gains on the profit over the original purchase price.
So, if my kids aren't able 2 buy something when we sell the other house, we're looking in2 something like a cabin in the mountains, or some more property in the region around my W's OOSP.
But there's another option that I am seriously considering, but won't raise until after this house sells:
If my W can't agree 2 get rid of any and all reminders and connections 2 RM, I will offer 2 let her reinvest all of the profit from the house sale in2 her OOSP, and I will wait until we sell our primary residence 2 cash out my share.
She won't want 2 sell our house. Neither will the kids. I don't want 2 either, frankly. But I'm not excited about investing in something else if I'm not going 2 have a monogamous marriage. I'd rather be roommates for a few years, maybe even until I retire.
So, if my kids aren't able 2 buy something when we sell the other house, we're looking in2 something like a cabin in the mountains, or some more property in the region around my W's OOSP.
Will you have to rent it out to make it a "like" investment to the one you sell?
I've taken a huge loss in profits for all the years my sis rented from me where as if I had sold when I moved out I would have pocketed a big equity...not now. She had just lost her house to fore closure though and was virtually homeless.
Quote
We are both done with my sister in law, though.
Yes. Your W had you to lean on through this heart wrenching mess, I hope she appreciates this. I could not have gone through that alone and so have allowed myself to be taken advantage of too often by my sister. Had I been married with some support, things may have been different.
Who knows though.
As for your plan if your boundaries are not honored after the house sells...
I hope you don't have to wait that long. Guys are so patient. I might have that in my head, plan for it, be convinced of it and then WHAMMO, one night it would just explode out of me... probably in about a week or less. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, how excited you sound! When do you move all the way in?
I'm gradually opening Ti up to the idea of getting some property out in the middle of nowhere.
Well, not nowhere. But close enough. Teeny schools, handful of streets, nice neighbors that work hard for their land and homes and enjoy life. I've grown weary, very weary of suburbia. I miss the majestic oaks and waterways of my youth. Swimming in cheerfully gurgling rivers. Picnics in the woods. Nature walks. Long, cool verandas where you can sit with friends, drink iced tea, and watch the sun set. You definitely can't get that where I live now.
Ti's commute won't be much (if any) worse than it is for him now; just a different direction. He's considering it, at least.
2Long, the thought of a quiet cabin somewhere gives me delightful chill bumps. I swear I'd live in a log cabin somewhere far away if I thought i could get away with it. As long as I could get online, that is. I need my internet connection!!! Mega-grocery stores be damned!
We leave Thursday Afternoon. Hopefully the weather will be nice. (meaning no wind.)
SLH, I hope you make the move. It doesn't hurt for life to move at a little slower pace.
2long, it is getting crowded here, but there are still lots of places close by where it is not. Just depends on what you want. My commute time to work has increased in recent years from 5 minutes to 7 minutes. I suppose I won't complain.
There are lots of nice cabin spots in the mountains close to OOSP.
Weaver, I tend to think you'll be happy no matter what. I think it comes from inside, not outside..... and you "got it."
Faithful, Doesn't matter what he does. You "got it" too, and you know you do. You will make it........... and not JUST make it, you'll do well. Give it a little more time, and you'll see.
Gray, I have been thinking about your comments. Maybe you just need someone to read to you.
The Day is Done
THE DAY is done, and the darkness Falls from the wings of Night, As a feather is wafted downward From an eagle in his flight.
I see the lights of the village Gleam through the rain and the mist, And a feeling of sadness comes o'er me That my soul cannot resist:
A feeling of sadness and longing, That is not akin to pain, And resembles sorrow only As the mist resembles the rain.
Come, read to me some poem, Some simple and heartfelt lay, That shall soothe this restless feeling, And banish the thoughts of day.
Not from the grand old masters, Not from the bards sublime, Whose distant footsteps echo Through the corridors of Time.
For, like strains of martial music, Their mighty thoughts suggest Life's endless toil and endeavor; And to-night I long for rest.
Read from some humbler poet, Whose songs gushed from his heart, As showers from the clouds of summer, Or tears from the eyelids start;
Who, through long days of labor, And nights devoid of ease, Still heard in his soul the music Of wonderful melodies.
Such songs have power to quiet The restless pulse of care, And come like the benediction That follows after prayer.
Then read from the treasured volume The poem of thy choice, And lend to the rhyme of the poet The beauty of thy voice.
And the night shall be filled with music, And the cares, that infest the day, Shall fold their tents, like the Arabs, And as silently steal away.
It (Modena) was for sale a few years ago, but I don't think anyone took them up on it. You could probably still buy it. If you did, then advertised lots for sale in CA, you could probably get your investment back pretty fast.
I don't know where to look 2long, I haven't bought anything for over 15 years.
I could give you names of some places to check with if you want.
I eat most things....... but I have an aversion to Tuna casserole.
Oh, if I am at someone's house, and it's served, I eat it just fine, but..........
It was when my youngest sister was born. I was about 10 years old. Mom was due in a few weeks, and there were complications. She was ordered to bed.
My dad was working out of town, and our church decided to help by bringing meals in for a week or two until the birth. I know it was just a chance thing, and most of the people who brought food to us were low income families like we were. AS it worked out, we had tuna casserole for dinner every night for about two weeks.
LOL. I'm not a fan of tuna either. Too much, too often in the lean days.
now Catfish. . . or Crawfish. . . mmmmmmmm.
SS, that is one of my favorite poems.
And the night shall be filled with music, And the cares, that infest the day, Shall fold their tents, like the Arabs, And as silently steal away
What fantastic pictures! Your twins picked a spot I would love to secret myself away in. Ah! And that Native American art -- fascinating! I would be in heaven.
Our family have been watching "Cash & Treasures" Tuesday nights on the Travel channel. The idea of camping and panning or mining for stones, or hunting for Megladon teeth in murky FL inland rivers, sounds delightful, even if we found little or nothing. Even the little ones are intrigued. It's something to aspire to, at least.
Very nice, SS. My public comments about these things aren't necessarily coming from a place of pain. I don't deny that my thoughts are colored by my own experience, but I'm smart enough not to carelessly project my experience onto everyone else.
To answer your question... I don't have plans for summer vacation yet. I'm taking a real one this year though. Gotta.
Tropical Island with great sunrises. Maybe one of the Hawaiian Islands.
I want to be on the beach every morning at sunrise with a cup of coffee.
And then out to lunch at an outside cafe with a couple of good friends, where all the help knows me by name.
Afternoons would consist of either surfing lessons, or yoga on the beach.
Then out to dinner with P and GB, at another casual yet swank outdoor cafe.
After dinner, sitting on the porch looking out over the beach, reading some really great book, talking to my daughter about her day and dreams, while drinking another great cup of coffee.
Listen to me. If anyone has plans for a paradise holiday, get ye to Australia. It is the most amazing place. Wonderful cities, a barrier reef crammed full of the most mesmorising of underwater life, beaches to die for and the wildlife is just bloody amazing. Kangaroos, koalas, wombats, kookaburras, budgies and cockatoos flying wild. Honestly, if you get bored sitting on a beach, that place has it all.
Weaver, I'm glad you're not intending to rush things. TT
Weave, I'd move to the beach tomorrow if I thought my Beloved would go for it. Something about the water calls to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
warm breeses salt air incredible sunrises long piers fishermen fresh shrimp off the boat cute clothes sea shells sand castles laughing smiling faces dusty pink lip gloss painted toe nails coconut drinks with umbrellas tanned faces leisurely walks feeling the pull of the sand wash out from under your feet being the first on the beach when the tide goes out
warm breeses salt air incredible sunrises long piers fishermen fresh shrimp off the boat cute clothes sea shells sand castles laughing smiling faces dusty pink lip gloss painted toe nails coconut drinks with umbrellas tanned faces leisurely walks feeling the pull of the sand wash out from under your feet being the first on the beach when the tide goes out
Lets go!
It's why I have a picture of a big wave on my back. I am at peace in the water. Truly. Completely.
SS - thank my 'rents?
Okay?
Why? Other than they rock...usually... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Baby corn...baby peas...baby carrots...evaporated milk...sea salt...pepper...sharp cheddar...and organic pappardelle pasta (better than egg noodles or elbows...much heartier). Gonna go home and have it for lunch...
Thank them for all of us, for contributing to how wonderful you turned out.
And the tuna C sounds wonderful - I admit that sometimes this applies to me - "Oh ye of little faith."
How could I doubt your cooking?
The beach is one of my favorite places too. When I was 16 I took a summer job in Hawaii, and it was a wonderful time and place.
I have lots of other beach memories.
Florida - with the hurricane almost on top of us. California - the beach mixed with the Redwoods. Oregon, a little campground full of wild blackberries, and the beach in the rain. Alaska, the wind and the waves mixed with pine scent.
Memories - words & music by bill strange - scott davis)
Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind Memories, sweetened thru the ages just like wine
Quiet thought come floating down And settle softly to the ground Like golden autumn leaves around my feet I touched them and they burst apart with sweet memories, Sweet memories
Of holding hands and red bouquets And twilight trimmed in purple haze And laughing eyes and simple ways And quiet nights and gentle days with you
Memories, pressed between the pages of my mind Memories, sweetened thru the ages just like wine, Memories, memories, sweet memories
SLH, you have to decide what it is that you want. I found early on, that I couldn't have everything. I read "7 Habits" by Covey, and one of the things he said stuck in my mind. "NO one, on their death bed, wishes they would have spent more time at the office."
I doubt I will ever have much in the way of material things, but I'll have memories......... and they are priceless.
20 years ago, I spent a week on the Big Island doing some geology along the Saddle Road. It was April, so their rainy season. It was also Halley's Comet, so I brought along a pair of 12x80 binoculars and a tripod 2 mount them on. I did get a lucky break in the clouds one night, where I also got 2 see the Southern Cross for the first time in my life. Very pretty.
I love the coffee there. And the hotel at Keauhou Beach had the most amazing French toast with coconut syrup (when I went back 10 years later with the family, it wasn't as good).
Kona has the coolest waterfront shops and stuff. It's drier than Hilo, but there aren't as many people, either.
That week, I went all over trying 2 find a place with paper umbrellas in the drinks, but nobody had them... I was crestfallen, but quickly rebounded.
Doing ok, SS. Thanks for asking. DS got his new wheelchair yesterday! Finally after waiting 6 months it arrived.
WH is looking more and more like a FWH trouble is I am much less invested in the is R than I have been in the past. We have quite a bit to overcome. We will see, right now I continue to focus on me.
OK - I should probably be serious, but instead I'll say this:
Dates and Vacations still apply !!!
It would be very difficult to overcome a history of not getting the truth. You may as well have fun while you wait.
Are you really OK?
Happy most days? Have enough energy to get through the day? Get a chance to rest a little on the weekends? Have your next vacation on paper so you have something to look forward to? Smile often, laugh much?
Ah, have a micro date for tonight scheduled to talk about a "recovery" plan. He says he is ready. No vaca's scheduled yet. Right now until we sell our rental property money is tight but I hope to do something like we did over Thanksgiving. We have been taking more date nights and he calls me to have lunch with him occasionally.
Hmmm...happy most days? Some yes, some no. I am still stressed and some days on hyper alert, but yes for the most part I am happy. The energy part is difficult, DS has drained me quite a bit lately but at least I sleep better these days.
I am reconnecting with a couple girlfriends which has been very good for me. Can't have all your friends on cyberspace ya know.
Reefs might form karst after they're left high and dry and start 2 dissolve (like Florida, the only water-soluble state in the union), but the Hawaiian islands are subsiding, taking what little coral there is with them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
SS, that was a very beautiful song - "memories tucked away in the pages of my mind"
Faith, you have real friends, in real life? Really?
Quote
I just sent someone to the Big Island.
I'm next Kimmy, okay?
You two, Kimmy and 2long, are just very strange with the VW obsession thing. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just strange. Strange is good though.
No, you are both excentric. That's it. Excentric is cool!
OK Faithful, I ran that through the translator, and I get that you need a vacation really bad, that you need more rest, but that you are not completely crazy.......... yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I hope you and your girls friends laugh a lot. It helps.
The reason I do so many things...... is that it helps me to cope. And also, I want our children to have fun memories that will last forever. I think it will help them, and sustain them when they get to where you and I are. I hope you get enough help - I trust God is there when you really need him to be.
I still believe you will do OK in the long run, but may you also find joy in the journey.
anything lemon is yummy to me! Try the Cherry Chan's next, lub them too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Actually SS, I am a raving lunatic...I just hide it well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Yes, I want my kids to have those memories and I want them to have a mom that is sane and happy. One way or another, with or without him, I will get there.
Weav! Doncha love me too? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
The islands are volcanic, made of basalt, which has a density of something like 3.3.
Now, they're sitting on basalt (the ocean floor), but it's all cool basalt, so it even2ally sinks beneath the crust at subduction trenches. Hawaii is sitting over a hotspot convection plume in the mantle, and the Pacific plate is moving over it. So, the Big Island is the youngest of the chain, and they get progressively older (and sunk farther with more coral around them) as you go from SE 2 NW.
Need more? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I went to HI once. Many years ago. It stormed something fierce the entire time.
If you want to get in on the ground (pardon the pun) floor, land speculate on the east side of the big island. That's where it is still forming under the hot spot. I read a new island is about 700 ft below sea level off the east coast of the big island and rising. Well, OK, you need to be in it for the long term capital gains, like a million years or so.
Alaska though. That's where I want to go next. DS and I want to ride Harleys up the Alcan and return on the inland ferry. Take about a month all total I figure.
Alaska though. That's where I want to go next. DS and I want to ride Harleys up the Alcan and return on the inland ferry. Take about a month all total I figure.
Alaska though. That's where I want to go next. DS and I want to ride Harleys up the Alcan and return on the inland ferry. Take about a month all total I figure.
It's gotta be a guy thing.
I dunno Weav...it sounds like a helluva a good time to me...
But I'm weird that way.
Course I'd prolly have to sell a kid or two to finance it....think the Wookie would mind?
I'd like 2 someday join the VW bus run from Sam Frank's Disco 2 Inuvik.
But since my Eurovan doesn't "count", I'd have 2 drive the ol' singlecab, and the bears would probably eat me during the night... ...if the mosquitos don't.
For the campfire, I just found this song on a Model A website:
"Not very far from me there's an old hollow tree Where you lay down a dollar or two. You go around the bend and you come back again With a jug of that old mountain dew.
They call it that old mountain dew, Lord, Lord And them that refuse it are few. Gonna hush up my mug if you'll fill up my jug With that good old mountain dew.
~
Preacher came by with his head heisted high, Said his wife had took down with the flu. And he thought that we ought just to give him a snort Of that good old mountain dew.
Well they call it that old mountain dew, Lord, Lord And them that refuse it are few. I'm gonna hush up my mug if you'll fill up my jug With that good old mountain dew.
~
Now my uncle Rort, he's sawed off and he's short, And he measures about four foot two. But he thinks he's a giant when you give him a pint Of that good old mountain dew.
Well they call it that old mountain dew, Lord, Lord And them that refuse it are few. I'm gonna hush up my mug if you'll fill up my jug With that good old mountain dew.
Gonna hush up my mug if you'll fill up my jug With that good old mountain dew."
Not much else to say. Life is in a weird zone. I'm very busy at work, HoFS' life is chaos, DD is very busy with school and things. The outside of my house has had major work done on it. Here's a day in 16 minutes that my brother did:
Inside, all is calm and well, except that I have to face my inner Emperor Palpatine. Forecast is for partly cloudy with a chance of grumpy and meatballs over the next few days.
The islands are volcanic, made of basalt, which has a density of something like 3.3.
Now, they're sitting on basalt (the ocean floor), but it's all cool basalt, so it even2ally sinks beneath the crust at subduction trenches. Hawaii is sitting over a hotspot convection plume in the mantle, and the Pacific plate is moving over it. So, the Big Island is the youngest of the chain, and they get progressively older (and sunk farther with more coral around them) as you go from SE 2 NW.
Need more? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
-ol' 2long
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Quote
Need more?
Weave: Nope, I think that'll do me. One question though...does Orchid know she's subsiding?
Never got to the Big Easy before the bad weather came...don't want to make the same mistake with Hawaii, no siree.
Oh no........ I'm sinking? Hm.... I thought I was shrinking. Whew!! LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Maybe hitting 50 head on ain't gonna be so bad....If I want to feel taller, I just gotta move back to California. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
So 2L, you've been up Saddle Road? We are gonna have super ferries soon so maybe I'll finally get to take that trek (re: rental companies prohibit tourists from taking their cars up Saddle Road - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ).
So Hawaii is sinking....guess that's better than CA falling in the ocean from a massive earthquake. That's the prediction my grandmother was afraid of back in the 1960's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Yep, been up saddle road many times now. Every day for about a week and a half, including the road up 2 the weather station, crawling over the lava flows with thermal infrared instruments (2 calibrate some overflights with a C-130 that I didn't get 2 ride in, un42nately). Then again about 12 years ago as a night assistant up at the IRTF on Mauna Kea. Gadzooks, it was cold and windy up there! 70mph and about 10F. I tried 2 videotape the sunset, but even with gloves on, my fingers were totally numb after about 5 minutes outside!
At night, you could see the glow from the eruptions from Pu'u O'o all the way from up there.
OMG, that is awful. I hope somebody remains who can find a way to keep her memory alive for that baby girl.
We had a manager here who was having an affair with a manager from another dept. Both married, and they both got fired from my company because of the negative impact their affair had on the staff.
His BW died of cancer during his affair.
The affair ended after they moved in together, destroying both their families.
To this day the thought of either one of them make most of us sick.
No chance for redemption once the BS has died, I suppose.
For some reason, this reminds me yet again of the limitations in the EN theory of preventing adultery.
The BS of these adulterers were not doing anything wrong. They got sick. Or pregnant. EN meeting became difficult and less of a priority because life and death happens.
And the resulting changes in EN satisfaction set the stage for their WS choosing an affair?
NO! It's because these WS are totally selfish users in the first place.
If you are a subscriber to the concept that meeting ENs prevents future adultery of your spouse, it seems you cannot get sick, pregnant or slack off for any reason whatsoever. Not even for a moment.
What a way to live. One might as well be an EN slave and live in constant fear of missing even one LB deposit, or else!
Crap. Now I'm cranky. And the day has barely begun.
The WS have affairs because they don't love themselves, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the BS. People use affairs as a bandaid, or a mask to hide their self-loathing from themselves. It is an escape.
The E/N theory is valuable (in my opinion) because it helps to lure the WS back into the marriage. And it does help a person to become a better spouse by trying to put the needs of his spouse first. (I think)
If had I to worry that my spouse was going to cheat on me or fall out of love with me if I didn't go golfing or have SF with him as often as he would like...well I would be the one to fall out of love, because that would put too much stress on me to be able to sustain. Or maybe not, I haven't really tried it yet.
I'd bet, Appy, that playing with any of those would improve your mood....
Myself, I'm partial to the sinodaurs (my 17 year old used to call dinosaurs "sinodaurs"). I think we're gonna have to take them on our trip to G'ma's so I can have...um...I mean...THE KIDS can have something to play with.
The EN theory only works to a degree, IMHO. For me at the time of my A ENs were a big part of it BUT it was selfish entitlement that allowed me to cross that line. Now 6 years of h*ll at the hand of my H and I have NEVER once considered cheating. I changed.
I still get noises of utter despair from my W about RM, though she never says his name.
Kimmy:
I still try 2 talk that antique dealer guy out of that fiberglass velociraptor he has out front. It'd be so swell in our garden, half hidden from the street by the greenery (maybe just the eyes and jaws).
Any big plans for this weekend? I'm daydreaming of hitting the Guadalupe River for some tubing, but with Spring Break still going on down here, I'm not thinking I want to take the chance, LOL.
Maybe I'll just curl up with a good book and a Sam Adams this evening. . .
GB was telling me about this VW Beetle he had in HS, and how he loaded two un-shorn sheep into the back to take to the county fair. Stuffed them both into the back seat. Got $300.00 for the pair. Said it was more lucrative then loading the back up with aluminum to take down to the Golden Goat. LOL
Can you imagine?
He was starting businesses from the time he was very young and had me in stitches all night Saturday talking about them.
When I get more time, I'm going to post them. They are so laughable, they are hard to believe. Unless you know GB, that is.
In my SuperBeetle, the seats were so worn that chunks of the straw stuff was forever poking through. Z used to sit in his carseat in the back an throw straw in my hair...For a two year old, apparently that's really fun.
Those sheep woulda broken their legs on the springs in my car!
I was PG with Z when I bought mine. It was funny....when I wore my yellow maternity swim suit, my beetle and I bore a striking resemblance.
Oh, you're funny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Shoulda put some big black stripes down the both of you, and then you could have been bumble bee's.
During grad school, I bought a rusty old bug from a colleague here at work. He'd bought it used when he went 2 UMass, where it got used as a field vehicle.
I paid 200 bucks for it. It ran okay, but you had 2 lift up on the doors 2 get them 2 clear the running boards when you went 2 close them.
One day, I sat on the seat belt, because the re2rn spring thingy had lost its suck long before. 2 get it out from under me, I tried 2 lift my beautox up by shifting my weight 2 my feet. My left foot went right through the rusty floor pan. I cut a piece of plywood 2 fit, and put it under the floor mat, and was good 2 go.
I sold it 2 another grad s2dent at USC about 6 months later, for $200. He drove it around for about 3 or 4 months. During the summer break, he went home 2 England, and his roommate forgot 2 move the car on the street every few days. It got towed away before my friend even knew what had happened.
I have a colleague who's worked here for about two years. He's definitely (dig that spelling) not one of the "upperclassmen" here. He's smart and capable and a very nice dude, a little older than me, married, a kid or two.
Recently several events happened. We had our annual reviews, and I assume his went okay, though I've been told (and this is not gossip) that he expressed a desire to do more of the "important" work around here.
The director of the Weather Service visited last week and awarded two of my colleagues with special commendations for work they did--work that got the attention of some influential people. This dude was not one of the recipients.
Finally, three of us are going to Alaska in a week, and another two went for field work last summer, and this dude was not selected to be on either team.
There's more, but this fella seems especially bummed out and I believe it's due to being left out of things around here.
I feel like asking him to get together or something, give him a chance to air his grievances, in case there's anything I can do about them, but his children take up all his time in the evenings and I don't want it to be a big deal.
Maybe I should just invite him over for dinner, but then he'd bring his wife and probably not gripe as freely.
Any tips? And remember, we're not women. This is the kind of thing best resolved over beers after work, but that's not an option.
2morrow, a website (mafca.com, as they didn't post my name after all!) will post a pic2re of my panel truck on their "A of the day" page. You'll have 2 watch for it, because it won't be there the next day. They may post my real name (not really 2long, as some of you may have surmised by now), but not for just for the day. So I should be okay... ...Deaf O'Nittley! (but you can call me "Nate").
Heck, most of you aren't even going 2 be here reading 2 see this post in time!
That truck was restored by a guy in Washington about 30 years ago. He did the logo. It's only got 6,000 miles on it since then.
Along with the truck, I got a pic2re of a bakery in Bellingham taken in 1931, showing 4 Model A panel trucks parked in front. Allegedly, my truck is one of them. If I can verify that connection, I intend 2 restore it 2 its original dark green color, with the sign:
"Rogers Baking Company The Housewife's Baker Wedding and Birthday Cakes a Specialty Phone 2754"
I have a 29 Fordor that I bought when I was in High School. It STILL isn't finished!
I still might sell it and buy another old car, preferably one that's either an old restoration, or an original low-mileage car. Believe it or not, lots of small museums around the country are selling old cars because these days everyone wants 2 restore muscle cars from the 60s. Blecch!
I'm waiting for a nice brass-era touring car with less than 10,000 miles 2 come along!
A guy I used 2 know had an original "Bring back 3.2 beer!" sticker on the windshield of his 1928 roadster.
I've never been a slave 2 fashion, but I've ac2ally purchased a copy of the era fashion guidebooks for Model As. Don't have any original togs yet, but someday.
I just learned recently that men's shirts didn't come in short sleeves until late 1931. They just "rolled up their sleeves" and got 2 work!
Well you might as well get Mrs. 2long some Flapper clothes and one of those really long cigarette holders while your at it...and learn how to do the fox trot.
Don't drop dead or anything harsh like that...but I actually had pictures developed (you might not wanna stand very close to me...I think lightening's fixin'ta strike).
Here are some from the weekend at my parent's.
Those brown haired kids are mine (as if you couldn't tell)...
Them are what you all had a hand in helping me save, see?
Without you all, there'd have been a few gaps in the photos...how sad would that have been?
That's my parent's yard. In my dad's defense...they just moved there...
(hehe)
Thanks for the compliments on the kids...I'm growing them myself....I'm okay with the feeding and watering....it's the danged fertilizer that's driving me nuts....can't wait till potty training the last one is OVER!
I know SS, that 2long sure is quick with words. I heard he was kind of bright.
Yanno, that's why it is nice when someone smart has a sense of humor. They are so entertaining. They're fun. You are like that too, SS.
There is a new engineer up stairs who is really bright, too. I haven't seen a sense of humour yet. Sure hope he has one though, cuz we could use some laughter around this joint.
He does seem like kind of a free spirit. Has a license plate that says "Jesus Saves", but then every time he pulls into the parking lot his truck stereo is just blasting Guns n Roses' "Welcome to the Jungle" or some other kind of really loud, wild song.
I know you all think I am the absolute worst mommy ever for always taking pictures and always forgetting to get them developed. But recently I found out that our grocery now gives you the CD of your pics if you get double prints. So my new years resolution (abeit, it was made in March) is to get a camera developed every time I go to the grocery.
Soooo.
Here are the most recent ones. Keep in mind these'll not come in any particular order....because I'm so disorganized I don't know which films have what on them, so I grab a roll from my pile on the table.
Apparently, these latest are from last October...prolly the beginning, since Leondra was trying on her witch's costume (hers was the 1st one we bought).
Kimmy, those kiddos are beautiful, just beautiful.
does anyone here watch BSG? What is up with that?
We got a 2.5+ foot Ball Python last week, and named him Gaius (as in, Baltar). The herpatologist we got him from used Gaius as an educational tool and brought him to schools, birthday parties, etc. As a result, he is curious and friendly and not the least bit shy. I'm going to be bringing him in to my daughters 1st grade class soon. Should be interesting. . .
LOL, Kimmy. We considered the name Kaa, too -- but Ty thought it sounded too nefarious. Not that "Gaius" is much better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, but I liked it, and he gave up trying to talk me out of it. And you have to admit, Gaius Baltar is a snake, too -- even if a likable one.
LOL -- Buttahfingers!
2Long, if you buy those BSG discs, would you consider burning a few extras? I'd be happy to pay for them. We've got a good year + or so before the series starts again, and I may as well revisit some of the older plots to refresh my memory and straighten the storyline in my head.
No hear from Gray - I thought they had net access in the frozen north.
My camping place last weekend was a HOUSE, in a small town, in the mountains. I don't feel bad about it either. We took walks, and I read a few books and I got to sleep as long as I wanted. Sometimes life is good. I read a book about the history of the western US, and I read "Enders Shadow" which is a companion book to "Enders Game." If you have read one, you will love the other. I couldn't put it down.
Ages ago in my "extravagant bellyachin'" thread you said
I don't know what you can ever do to lose that nasty emasculated feeling that probably crops up now & then. I think you just have to endure it. It's something you do for squid that as a woman she might not appreciate.
I wanted to say I understand this now; I didn't when you said it.
I think it is true, but I don't like it. This came from a wise place within you.
I have! ...on a field workshop in the Alaska Range.
Basically, Vodka on the rocks, but the ice is 100,000 years old.
Kind of muddy, though. But if there are old dead (or worse, not dead) bugs in it, I bet the vodka helps 2 sterlize it).
SS, your pics are great, 2! Hey, where is that petroglyph site? My W ought 2 take her s2dents there, if she doesn't already (it doesn't look like Parowan Gap, though).
Bob: Hi. Good 2 see you again, though you may not like me much...
Kimmy, those are adorable pics of the kids. Keep posting them!
SS, I always enjoy your camping pics. It reminds me of the things that I love about the west. I was almost going to get to go to Denver this summer, but can't figure a way to do it and keep up my obligations here. A bummer, for certain. Looks like the farthest west I'll get this year is Kansas City.
Gray, thanks for the link and the pics. Heck of a place to get to visit! Hope you get some time to see other parts of AK, as well. It's an amazing place.
Weaver, how's things with GB? You're as quiet about it as I am about HoFS these days.
Aphelion, SLH, FF, KiwiJ, Cinderella, Bob, it's good to see you all. Hope you're well!
Me? I'm wandering my way through another of DD's colds-from-preschool. It's the second or third one in a month and my head is full of snot. HoFS and his boys left today after being at my house since Wednesday -- it was their spring break. It has been a high-activity and stress time, without enough downtime and cuddling. The lack of connection is hard on me. Cried myself to sleep in HoFS' arms last night, partly from being sick and partly from missing him when he's right there. His world is chaotic these days. My world has been pretty darned good for the last few months, though the last week hasn't been.
Here's a few pics from my brother's birthday and DD playing ball
She's playing on the new patio, which I had put in to fix the drainage in my yard. All the exterior work needed to prevent another flood like last year's is now complete. Next priority is to fix the damage inside the house (drywall, paint, carpeting) from the flood. That'll happen after my brother moves into his new condo in May -- and after I rebuild a reserve for home improvements.
Bob: Hi. Good 2 see you again, though you may not like me much...
2l Ilike you just fine. I quit projecting my interpretation of personal dignity onto other people's situations when I quit MB a while back.
That I regained my own interpretation of personal dignity was great gain to me in my affair-fighting process, but I realised that is was arrogance for me to assume that yours or anyone elses'interpetation was somehow less valid. I'm sorry for that if it means anything to you.
Hey b0b - good to see you!! I only lurk here occasioanlly, and it is good to pop in and see you here.
Interesting thoughts about dignity you have there. You always have good stuff to chew on.
You really helped me get through the tough stuff. Thanks. I hope you are in a more peaceful place. (I definitely am....)
Hey campers - it is always fun to drop in. You are the only MBers I keep track of these days. (I know - grammatically incorrect - but "of whom I keep track" is too lofty....)
Crazy weather, huh?
Does anyone remember where in the book, I think SAA, Harley explains that Plan A will help you deplete the bank, so that if D is the end result, you will hurt less after? (I think it is stated more eloquently...) I am benefiting from that effect, I think. I have seen a few here that were so over their X (I think I remember a Harley Davidson....) and it has been encouraging for my sitch. Just a curious thing. Now any pain is mainly for my kids.
And the question "Do you think you will ever...." no longer sends me down an introspective path, wondering....
It is funny to think about someone travelling from Minneapolis to someplace cold....
I found an out of print book at Half Price Saturday. My cousin had given me a copy of the book when we were teens...and my dog chewed it up. I've been looking for it on and off for years. I was nearly weeping with joy when I paid for it. It's a great story.
Bob: Hi. Good 2 see you again, though you may not like me much...
2l Ilike you just fine. I quit projecting my interpretation of personal dignity onto other people's situations when I quit MB a while back.
That I regained my own interpretation of personal dignity was great gain to me in my affair-fighting process, but I realised that is was arrogance for me to assume that yours or anyone elses'interpetation was somehow less valid. I'm sorry for that if it means anything to you.
[/threadjack] sorry Gray
It means a great deal 2 me. Thanks, and likewise from this end.
Would have more of an impact if you told us the title!
I found a copy of "Gertie the Duck" at the swap meet a few years ago. I think I bought it, but we've moved so many times I can't remember anymore.
I had checked that out of the school library when I was 7 and just learned how 2 read. But I forgot to 2rn it back in. When I realized I still had it, something like a year had gone by, and I thought the fees would be millions of dollars. But I 2rned it in anyway (my mom might have encouraged me, I don't remember). And you know? They didn't charge me a cent!
HOW DID I KNOW THAT OUT OF ALL OF YA'LL, IT'D BE 2LONG TO ASK THE TITLE??????????????????????
I'm just psycho that way, I guess.
It's Battle Circle by Piers Anthony. One of his earlier works...geez...getting misty again...such stories, and here I thought I'd never get to read them again...never say never.
And I still have my copies of D'Lures Norse Gods and Giants and Greek Myths that I made my mom buy me for getting good grades in elementary school. I'd checked them out at the library so many times that it seemed that only my name was on the check out cards. I remember we got my books at Voertman's in Denton. I was pleasantly surprised during my visit that the Voertman's bookstore is still open (and it still smells of new books).
Battle Circle. I wonder if I've read that. I went through the Piers Anthony phase in jr. high. He wrote about five good books... it's too bad he's actually written 30 or 40 of them!
Ah, well. Those 5 were worth it. I loved Split Infinity when it came out, I really did. It was a very cool concept.
I'm in my sunroom right now, where all my SF and Fantasy live. Mercedes Lackey over there, Tolkien over here. David Weber and Michelle West underneath, and a whole shelf of Star Trek novels. (All original series, thank you very much.) Robert Jordan, Bob Heinlein, Lois McMaster Bujold, Gordon Dickson, Anne McCaffrey, Robert Silverberg, David Eddings, Diana Gabaldon, Raymond Feist, Orson Scott Card, Steve Brust, David Brin, Sean Russel, Melanie Rawn, Christopher Stasheff, Guy Gavriel Kay, Terry Goodkind (I need to get rid of those; they're creepy), and many others. I only have left the ones that I read over and over again, and have given away or sold the rest. Ten shelves of the stuff that filled my days for decades. All the dreams and wonders of life elsewhere, elsewhen.
These days, I read different things. For my own knowledge, books on child-raising. For the coaching stuff, books on addiction and love, abuse and ethics, healing and pain.
I am re-reading a Michelle West book (The Riven Shield) at the moment. A book like that once would have taken me a weekend to read. Now? Months and months. My world is so much more mundane than it was then.
I love books too. I spend lots of time in the used book stores whenever I visit the big city. The thrift store comes up with some good ones at times also.
Interesting how the books we read as children become worth so much to us. It's the same for me.
I'd checked them out at the library so many times that it seemed that only my name was on the check out cards.
Oh that takes me back. I remember getting books again and again and thinking what is wrong with people? Why am I the only one who loves this book?
I'm in Homer, Alaska. Bald eagles everywhere. They're like gulls here. Nasty creatures. Ravens, now there's a bird I can get on board with.
After a week with my companions... I see I've clearly got used to being alone. I have been dying for some time to myself. Alas I'll have to wait. But I'm having fun fun fun. Alaska is swell. Next couple of nights I have a cabin that looks straight across the Cook Inlet, toward glaciers.
I am on board with you re ravens. They are smart enough to be trained. Used to be a very common pet in the 1700's. I want one, actually.,
JJ and Kimmy,
So, where do you have Saberhagen filed? Mine are on the very top shelf where I can only get to them when I reaaaly need to read one.
How about your Laumers?
A few years ago I found a copy of the first sf book I remember reading in grade school: Omha Abides. I keep it in a safe place. DS didnt much care for it though. Didnt have the exploding alien heads of a video game. I suppose he will someday hunt for a vintage copy of Halo, though.
HOW DID I KNOW THAT OUT OF ALL OF YA'LL, IT'D BE 2LONG TO ASK THE TITLE??????????????????????
Well, you knew dern well that I, for one, wouldn't even know what the heck you were babbling about. LOL Way out of my scope of books read, or to be read. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Gray,
I'd like to say your pics are breathtakingly beautiful, or some other such thing...but they just look like snow to me (and cold, brrrr).
...gotta go look at the others pics now. I bet SS's look warm and sunny, and not white.
JJ, nothing to write about where our R is concerned...just lovey, dovey, mushy stuff that is better written in a journal. LOL
I did wake up Sunday morning, and I kid you not, my first thought was "God is back". Birds were chirping and the sun was threatening to actually shine. I got goose bumps and I kept thinking, "Thank you God, I love you."
Strange how sometimes you feel so connected, and so happy, and so peaceful...waking up excited. WOW! And I had been alone since Friday night when my DD left to go spend spring break with her dad. All alone and packing up my house and I felt blissfully, crazy, happy. I touched God last weekend. No question.
2long - I have recently only begun watching BSG. I found a place where I can see the first episodes. I am up to about episode 6 of season 1.
WOW!!! I love this stuff!! It just keeps getting more complex - kinda like working through tough times in M, now that I think about it.....
FF - I am doing well. Finally in my own place. XW moved, then I a couple of weeks later. My kids are at my place 2 and 3 nights a week, and I see them almost every day. The apartment I am in is like a ski lodge, except never any snow. There is a creek with fish in the back, next to the pool. It reminds me a lot of the piney woods of East Texas, where I grew up. My kids love the rope swing that goes out over the creek.
I have watched 3 or 4 episodes of BSG tonight. I think it is time to go to bed.
Good night, all.
GC - enjoy the glacier. And travelling. I had the opportunity to travel about 10 weeks a year for a while, and I agree - it is good for one's soul. I guess you need to be in the right business, though. I would not want to travel some places right now. God please bless those that are.....
2l - I am one of the few that enjoyed Voyager, too. Did you?
I'm doing better than I could even form words to describe back in 2004. I hope for the same for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'm a mush-head and your a buttinski. What a cute way to put it!
Yanno, I love those fantasy books, at least the stories, but I can't get past the names I can't pronounce. It just ruins it for me when I don't know how to pronounce a name. And they don't come with pronunciation keys, do they? It's a pity really.
How do you read those? Do you make up little nicknames to call everybody.
Just like the "Q" guy. It's hard for me to refer to him in my mind, because I can't pronounce his dang name.
I'm sure SS knows exactly what I mean. Why can't they just use names like John or Peggy?
Appy - You are not being ignored. It's all in your head.
Did you hunt and fish when you were growing up? Hike? Camp often?
I may have just the book for you.
As far as the names, I don't have a problem. Since ~I~ was the one reading, the names could be anything I wanted them to be. Sure, it's hard to discuss them with others, when you do that, but it makes it easier to read.
Or, you can get the audio book and have it done for you. We did a Harry Potter audio book on our 2005 Yellowstone Park trip, and the kids would groan when we stopped for gas, (and shut off the player.) I didn't realize it could be so fun. As soon as we were on the road again, they wanted to listen.
I never read any of Heinlein's stuf. I wanted to read "A Stranger in a Strange Land"...that's why I asked JJ if she had. We only have one copy in our library and it is always checked out.
I love books on tape! I am thinking of ordering a program on vocabulary improvement. I guess it helps to know that none of you can pronounce the names in the stuff you read. I wish I had known I was not the only one when I was growing up.
Ap, I am ignoring you but I don't have you on ignore. Does that help? I can throw a Lieney's Sunset Wheat and an orange slice into the pile for you though.
Okay, I am copying something from another website, written by someone else, because I really like it.
Quote
There is an old Japanese story about a beligerent samurai who once challenged a zen master to explain the concept of heaven and h*ll but the zen master replied with scorn......"You're nothing but a lout, I cant waste my time with the likes of you"....His very honor attacked, the samurai flew into a rage and pulling his sword from it's scabbard and yelled...
"I could kill you for your impertinence".
"That" the monk calmly replied,"is h*ll".
Startled at seeing the truth of what the master had pointed out about the fury that had him in it's grip the bushido warrior calmed down, sheaved his sword and bowed and thanked the monk for his insight.
"And that" said the zen master "is heaven".
The sudden awakening of the bushi to his own agitated state illustrates the crucial difference between being caught up in a "feeling" and becoming aware that you are being swept away by it...
The Socrates injunction..."Know thy self" speaks to this keystone of emotional intelligence (and the control of ones own emotions)....awareness of one's own feelings as they occur,self awareness in the sense of an ongoing attention to ones internal state
I've read SIASL. Basically, all the Heinlein books from Glory Road forward are kind of goofy. Lots of self-involved psuedo-lofty introspections and indulgences.
Not nearly as fun as the pre-Glory Road, essentially adolescent Sci-Fi novels I remember so fondly.
Speaking of adolescent Sci-Fi. Anybody ever read any Alan E. Nourse?
"Trouble on Titan" is EXCELLENT. As was "Raiders from the Rings."
Yeah, all the time. I grew up in the middle of nowhere. Had to hike along the river 3 miles just to get to school. Sometimes rode a horse though. Hiked and camped in genuine wilderness until I moved to the big city. All four seasons camper. First time I went camping in an improved site out here I thought I was in a city park. Still can't get used to being able to see other campsites.
ed: Until recently, before I blew out a knee skiing, I climbed all the major NW peaks. Been to the top of all of them several times, except Shasta. Now I go with the Scouts (former Eagle, me) whenever I can, but I mostly help in base camp.
Weave,
Sounds like a girly beer to me. But if you say it's good I'll try it!
Sounds like a girly beer to me. But if you say it's good I'll try it!
It's very good! Heck, take Mrs. Ap out shopping and stop for one afterwards. They taste so good and refreshing, but probably too light and fruity to drink more of.
Kind of like a light, fruity and slightly sweet wine one would have at a lunching. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
(didja know if you email Anne McCaffrey, she emails back!)
Heh. Every darned time I see her name, I'm back on that dragon. What a wonderful way to lose four years of my life that was.
Oh, and if you're looking to get lost, too, go to http://www.pern.org/. Now is a very good time to go, as you'll see if you look at the January 2007 WizMeet log. (That's like the minutes from the Board of Directors' meeting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)
Saberhagen was never a particular draw for me, but Laumer? Man, I loved some of the Retief books! But I was always a romantic more than a scientist (something I should have learned muuuuch earlier than I did). I loved the new locales and bizarre stuff that people had to deal with, but waded through the hard science with only a great deal of effort. Once fantasy became readily available in quantities, I read much more of that than hard SF. I do still love a well-turned hard SF tale, though, which is why Bujold and Weber appeal to me.
You know how the Dune novels have those little quotes at the beginning of every chapter?
I've got 2 verify this before I quote it in my sigline, but in "Dune: The Battle of Corrin" by Herbert and Anderson, there's a great one that goes something like:
"The deadliest poisons cannot be analyzed in any laboratory, because they are in the mind."
Can you still get Moose Drool up there in the great white?
Moose Head? Yes.
The guys used to go across the river (into Canada) to buy it because if was so much higher in alcohol content than the beer they could buy here. ...and the drinking age was only 19.
Now of course everything is imported and there is just no fun in having to go across the river to get anything anymore.
Oh, except natural health practioners whom cannot be licensed in my state, but are common in Canada.
My eye doctor actually told me (I work with customs and he knows it so can't believe he told me this) that they go over to buy the meat in Canada because it is so much better and cheaper than ours and then have it relabled to bring across the border.
Do you know that our meat is so bad, and so toxic that several counries prohibit it being imported into their country?
Doesn't that just make you want go out for a beer and a brat? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sickening. I am working on some imports now (or am supposed to be) so I have this on my mind.
We used to even go over to get what were called "222,s" (asperin with codene) for my uncle who always had a nasty headache.
I loved Alan E. Norse. Some of those earlier books (by many different authors) seemed to be written purely to entertain. And they were fun to read.
I think some authors try to bend our minds a little bit - usually not as fun for me.
I liked the Retif books too. When I was young, I loved Andre Norton. Ah, memories. There are so many good books.
Appy - I know what you mean about campgrounds where you are too close to the other people. I tend to go to places where you seldom see another person, and if you do, it's far and few between. The desert pics I put up were sized, and some I brightened, but that was it. I didn't doctor them.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
While working on the Model A with my son last Friday, we explored the fact that we have similarly strange senses of humor.
I told him that my dad and my grandfather had similar senses of humor as well.
Not long after I got that Model A (I was 17 at the time), I was mixing some bondo 2 fix a dent on one of the "modern irons" (not the model A), and my dad read the label on the tube of hardener to me:
"Knead thoroughly before using."
Which prompted him 2 comment: "So, point being, if you don't really need it, don't use it!"
My son agreed. We all have similar senses of humor. He 2rnd 20 2day.
Sense of humoUr is inherited, I'm sure. My girls have grown up in Hong Kong where Mr Bean is considered the king. Local humour here is very slapstick and childish. Most of the comedy on the 'English' channel is American (Friends, Frazier, Malcolm in the Middle') All of which we love.
But occasionally, I go wild and purchase a British DVD set such as The Office, Little Britain or The Green Wing and the girls are doubled up laughing at the weird characters and dialogue. So, naturally, they get their friends to watch these "really funny programs" when they visit and within minutes, the kids are twitching and bored because they just don't get it! I find it welly interesting.
Ok, I saved it for last: youse guys has gots to read the Discworld books by Terry Pratchett/Pratchet (his name seems to gain or lose a t every few books).
Funniest dang stories I have ever read. Times were in the past few years when reading these books was the only time I laughed.
High FF! I'd love to take your doggy. Plenty of lonely skonks around here he can pal around with. I'm just too far away.
...and then I read something that reminds me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
On my front, I finally got moved back into my little yellow house. Yeah! It's bright, tiny and Paige and I love it after that big old dark house we were in. All the wood in that house is either maple or oak. The floors in every single room including the kitchen are a beautiful maple. Dark, dark and darker.
The little yellow house has cheap pine floors and wookwork, and painted hollow doors. Vinyl windows with cute little window boxes.
Gonna fix her up and sell her, but sure am enjoying being back there. It was my first house, long before Paige was born.
I have been reading all sorts of stuff about starting my own business and putting half of my 401K into a sole IRA account, or self-directed IRA that allows real estate investment out of it.
Also looking at the possibility of operating a food cart at the various festivals in Green Bay next spring (very possible).
GB talked to some businesses down on the water front and they said what was needed was a water taxi, like they have in other waterfront areas. Green Bay is just in the process of developing their waterfront and I think it is already very beautiful.
We looked into the costs involved in the boat itself, even converting an old house boat. The captains "6 pack" (yes that's what they call it, too funny) license is under a $1000. to obtain but the insurance is sky high. Way too much money to invest in starting a business when there are too many unknowns, and with the vicarious summer weather in Green Bay, it's just too risky. It was fun to dream about though. I could so imagine myself there, hanging out on the river front with all the tourists. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It's soo much fun to concentrate on things other than a broken heart.
This is what is meant by freedom of the mind, to me. It's awesome to be free to pursue thoughts, dreams, to imagine, and most of all to work towards something new. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> To be light of mind...priceless.
Weaver, I have no idea what you were talking about but thanks a heap. You made me feel better.
I need a fiver from that gun nonsense. Must... resist... personal... attacks!
So I heard 81-year-old Christopher Tolkien finally finished editing another of his father's unfinished tales, called The Children of Hurin, and that it is very dark and a good read.
But first I need to read The Road. I was too cheap to get it in hardcover when it first came out, then I resisted it because of the "Oprah" sticker on the paperback (vain I know), and now it's won the Pulitzer.
Cormac McCarthy is what they used to call a literary giant.
Depending on where you live, you can use an underground fence but your baby has to be at least 4 months old to train to it. It also doesn't keep other strays out. We had one where we used to live on 5 acres. It was much cheaper than stick built. The other option would be a chainlink kennel during the day when you are gone, don't make it too small and be sure there is a dog house inside. Most AKC people keep their dogs in small kennels in the house during the day when they are at work. It seems cruel to those who don't but the dogs like having there own space and don't want to dirty it either. Mutts, usually have better temperments, less in breeding, aqccording to some. They really do love you when you are home and give you lots of loving and petting when you need it!!
You guys aren't going to believe the book I read this weekend..."The God Delusion" by Roger Dawkins. They didn't have the book I wanted at the libary and that one called out to me from the new arrivals shelf.
Wow! Talk about dark. It was the first Athiest book I have ever read. I cried afterwards, but I do agree with the danger of religion.
He had an excerpt in there from Sam Harris's "Letter to a Christian Nation" that I agree with wholeheartedly, but don't have the guts to post here.
What troubled me about the book was that there is a definite gap left if one loses his belief in God, and Dawkins says that for him he is so inspired and awed by science and the universe, that he feels no gap.
Well what fills the gap for non-scientific people?
I doubt I will ever be athiest, but I am ready to move myself into the spiritual but not religious category...which is why I even noticed the book in the first place, I suppose.
Of course afterwards, I was so depressed I had to read from Wayne Dyers "Inspiration"...(a fellow follower of ACIM).
And just so as not to stray too far from the subject at hand, P works at the no kill animal shelter in town -
Please, please get your pets from your local shelter. (unless of course you must have a specific breed with papers, or something like that.
One of my cats adopted us - I call her Bastet's cat because the Egyptians belived the cat chose the humans, not the other way around. She is queenly and aloof most of the time...just like a goddess-cat should be.
The other came from a cat rescue. He's fat and lazy and sweet and loving (to the point of smothering me).
Miss Molly is def. happy with us...she's very spaniel-y...like if someone had gathered all the different spaniel types together and smushed them together to make one dog.
He had an excerpt in there from Sam Harris's "Letter to a Christian Nation" that I agree with wholeheartedly, but don't have the guts to post here.
You can email it 2 me, if you like! I promise not 2 be offended. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Quote
What troubled me about the book was that there is a definite gap left if one loses his belief in God, and Dawkins says that for him he is so inspired and awed by science and the universe, that he feels no gap.
This is interesting. I don't feel a "gap", so far as I understand what he's describing. I wonder if the perceived gap is because he's equating a "loss" of his belief in God with a loss of spiri2ality, rather than religion? After all, being "inspired" by anything - be it science, the universe, or wagging puppy dog tails - is spiri2al by definition.
I will, but it will be a day or so as I have to bring the book and type the excerpt out.
It's about religion in government. Something that should scare the living crap out of everyone.
2long, Dawkins also talks about how geologists are way too polite when talking to others about science and religion. I had to laugh at that, thinking of you.
My problem is with religion and government, though.
I've only read a few of his essays and seen a talk he gave. Based on that... Dawkins is a relic of 19th century scientific reductionism and arrogance, and I find his hostility toward religion to be a little pathological.
But it's no surprise there should be a scientific backlash to the bizarre reality-denying fundamentalism we have so much of here in the USA.
The gap for me comes from the loss of comfort, a way of thinking, and a way of looking at the world itself. I don't think Dawkins felt any gap, but he was addressing it for all the people raised with religion who would.
If there were no religion in the world, as a favorite Beetle sang about in Imagine, would people finally take responsibility? Would they open their eyes and study peace, and understand finally that it is up to us?
I was raised in a religious family. I stopped going 2 church "suddenly" when I was 21.
I felt the "gap" for about 3 years, I think. Followed by a period of hostility 2ward organized religion, followed by an acceptance of our differences - though I admit that I sometimes get pretty annoyed at "willful ignorance."
When individuals experience the truly liberating quality of taking responsibility for their own life choices and the consequences of those choices, then the gap closes.
I think a lot of Christians stick their head in the sand about current events. I happen to work with a Christian group that is preparing for the next terrorist attack, by preparing emergency workers and lay people to deal with a mass critical incident. Our leaders and teams are typically the first contacted for spiritual support when major disasters occur. I do not know if the next terrorist attack is coming - but it is amazing how naive we ("Amuricans") are about how easy it would be to pull off a nationwide attack that would far outdo 9/11. Or maybe that is "the end is here" hype. I think there is a definite risk. Intel from the top indicates it is a given.
I know that Christianity gets a lot of drunks and drug addicts out of the hole. Possibly a lot of other social activities do, too. But I see thousands of faces a week, and at least hundreds, if not thousands, are living a Christian life as an alternative to a former life. And that is just one group of people. (although I believe that a critical step is left out in much Christian counseling regarding marriage. Yes, prayer is important, but I think Harley and concrete programs are left out too often).
But even the good Christian kids wonder about the big questions. I can see a viable case for the notion that humanity created God. I wonder sometimes if He is there. So did Mother Theresa. I think Billy Graham has, at times, questioned God.
I have not read the mentioned books. For me - I do not need that right now. Even with my doubts, I sometimes “feel” like I feel the hand of God. And my ex had prophetic dreams. (she dreamt about the first space shuttle explosion two weeks before the event, and many other events). I am curious to see if intelligent design can get some credence, but the whack jobs are gonna make that a tough battle.
I do not intend to begin a religious debate here.
I respect each of you for where you stand, and am honored and proud to count you as my friends. I look forward to meeting some of you in July. I sure appreciate your obvious mutual consideration of one’s beliefs. 2long – it will be good to shake your paw. Oh - I am watching BSG online. I am in the middle of season 2. The cylon just killed the admiral. Riveting stuff. And people laugh at me when I tell them I watch it. But I love it!
Hey – the dead sea scrolls will be in San Diego in May! I am excited to see that!
One Saturday morning catechism the Sister was telling us about when Christ appeared to the disciples and Thomas wasn't there. I asked where he was. She said he was out getting a hamburger.
I still remember that almost every time I hit McD's.
I still debate with myself whether I should give up hamburgers every lent, but I never do.
I believe downplaying serious problems because Jesus is gonna come solve them for us is more than irresponsible... it's deranged.
Agreed and I don't know anyone personally that does that. As you friends know I am a believer. I love God. I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am not a "religious" person. My faith gets me through the good and bad times. I think the danger is having no belief or faith in anything. I am not pushing MY faith or beliefs here btw.
I can't imagine belief without doubt. A few seem to have this but it'll never happen for me.
Belief without doubt would mean you are not human. Everyone doubts at times. My dearest, dearest friend and my mentor when I first became a Christian is having serious doubts right now. Read some of Dr. Dobson's "When God doesn't Make Sense" and you will hear of his doubts.
When individuals experience the truly liberating quality of taking responsibility for their own life choices and the consequences of those choices, then the gap closes.
AMEN! Ironically this is often why some waywards never get it, kind of like FAR's ex right FAR?
I think about all that has happened to me. I think about the touch in my mind when I pray. I think about the times I have felt Gods love and how real it is. It nearly always comes again then, and comforts me.
It's hard to explain really - like trying to explain love maybe. When you love someone, what is it really? Is it real?
I respect other beliefs, how can we not if we care about others? I can't explain some things. I don't understand some things, but still, God is on the other end of prayer, and I know it.
I am very glad I know everyone here, I have learned much from all of you.
When individuals experience the truly liberating quality of taking responsibility for their own life choices and the consequences of those choices, then the gap closes.
AMEN! Ironically this is often why some waywards never get it, kind of like FAR's ex right FAR?
You are banging the nail right on the head, Faith.
Many times in the last two or three days she has said/done things that shows that she "does not get it, and does not get that she does not get it."
Interesting - no pain with her any more. But she is still a PITA. Gonna be for a long time, methinks.
A old friend wrote today - her husband confessed to an A yesterday. Second time. She does not feel she wants to try again. I told her to come here. She feels God placed me on her path for this. We re-united about three weeks ago, after not talking for 17 or 18 years. She was living a seemingly happy life, till yesterday.
I am praying for her.
On the episode tonight - Admiral Adama urged over his ship-wide PA for those who believed in prayer to pray for the dying president, and for those who were not inclined that they join him in thinking positive thoughts for her. She was miraculously healed.
I'm not asking you for your definition, I realize that is personal and may be beyond explanation in our limited vocabulary. This is what I ask myself.
To GB, God is the collective consciousness of the universe, and how evolved we are shows in the sickness or health of a society, family, etc. As I understand him to mean anyway. I grew up believing that God was love. Even my mom took the Bible in a metaphorical sense, not literal.
When things such as my belief system stop making any kind of logical sense to me, I start searching again...but it never strays too far from the idea that there is a higher power in and among us that unites us and pushes us to reach for the divine and our greater good.
One thing I liked about that book I read was that it helped me to understand "natural selection" a little bit. In my small understanding I get that we have no choice but to evolve, not only physically but mentally, and I take that to mean spiritually as well.
You could say I change my beliefs to accomodate my doubts. I don't know if that is sappy or not, but it seems to me to be better than abandoning the belief altogether.
I love reading about what different people believe. And HHDL's beliefs are incredible to read about.
Do you know that he is so holy, so good, and so filled with absolute love that people literally fall to their feet in tears in his presence. The peace he radiates is that awesome.
I think about all that has happened to me. I think about the touch in my mind when I pray. I think about the times I have felt Gods love and how real it is. It nearly always comes again then, and comforts me.
It's hard to explain really - like trying to explain love maybe. When you love someone, what is it really? Is it real?
I respect other beliefs, how can we not if we care about others? I can't explain some things. I don't understand some things, but still, God is on the other end of prayer, and I know it.
I am very glad I know everyone here, I have learned much from all of you.
Thanks.
SS
SS, you are a very beatiful person, and very inspiring to me.
It seems like we all believe things so similar, but as you say the meaning gets lost in our very, limited ability to define it in our human language. But the heart knows, it needs no words to understand.
I was watching an interview with him on Charlie Rose a 2ple of years ago. He had such moving answers 2 "simple conversational questions" from Charlie Rose, it was absolutely riveting. I remember my W walked in 2ward the end of the program and asked who it was being interviewed. When I told her, she made some derogatory remark of some kind I don't remember off hand.
...and then she heard the first full question and answer. And she got quiet, and sat down until the end of the program.
It's been an amazing weekend here in SoTex -- great food and fishing and friends. How has everyone else been?
We are planning on going camping next month near the Frio river -- real primitive, with the exception of the must-have coffee percolator. Any suggestions for things we need to bring for three kiddos and a nature-challenged husband (one who prefers *I* clean our fish catches, LOL?)?
Eeeew, fish eyes. And here I thought very little could gross me out. LOL.
Nah, I don't really mind cleaning the fish. I'm the one that takes the girls fishing as it is, LOL. And heck, it gets me out of the house.
My uber-proper neighbors must rue the day I moved in and brought my catfish hacksaw with me, LOL! My backyard deck looks like a slaughterhouse on particularly successful afternoons.
Weaver, I would have totally forgoten the first aid kit, so thanks for the suggestion. Any others for a gal who hasn't roughed it since she was 3?
ROFLOL, Kimmy, you mean, when they croak? They sound almost like a frog.
Trust me, they usually get a few good barbs in before the day is out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> So much for my gentleness before they get tossed on ice!
I can honestly say I have never heard a catfish scream. Maybe I am not listening closely enough? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
All the ones I caught Sunday afternoon got tossed back on account of their being preggers. Lucky fishies! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS, I am *SO* learning what you mean by that. I have whittled my trips to and from the car while fishing from 6 to 2. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I figured that (you being a mom) you would have it down pretty well by now. I like to tease you -
We usually go to unimproved places - meaning no campground. You have to take different things for the wilds than you do if you have improvements like running water, picnic tables, and restrooms.
We tend to take things like tables, chairs, water, and toilet paper.
Roughing it for us is doing without electricity and water hookup but being NEAR those things, LOL. We are buying a TX State Parks and Wildlife Parks Pass. This allows everyone in the vehicle to get in all TX state parks free, to use camping facilities for half price, and other discounts. The big bonus for me (the fisherman) here is that all fishing lisences are waived in all state parks, and a fishing lisence here in TX is half the price of the Park Pass. There's dinner!
My list of things to take (that you almost always need) and that people usually forget is as follows:
Tweezers - good ones You get more splinters when camping - usually
Fingernail clippers - I break more nails too, and I hate having to bite them off. (Mine are short - my girls usually break more) I also keep some in my fishing stuff to cut the line when changing lures. I tie it to my vest actually - and I always have it, and I can't loose it.
Toilet Paper - I keep a zip loc bag of it in my day pack, my camera bag, almost everywhere. The kids seem to have this need to wait until we are away from the bathroom before they need to go.
Zip Loc Bags and big trash bags Dirty, wet clothes go in the trash bags so they don't contaminate every thing else. We use zip loc bags to portion out treats, keep leftovers for a few hours or overnight. I almost always regret when we leave them home. What did I do before?
Bandanas - Keep the sun off, use as towels to clean up when we take walks, and blow the runny noise when allergies kick in. You can hold one in reserve if you need to hold up a bank too.
Headlamp - I use a lantern for the main cooking/camping area, but I an a headlamp convert now. You just put it on, and it points where you look. The girls seem to want their own light too -
We put the twins (girls) in their own tent now, and W and I get to sleep by ourselves. I think I like it better this way. Of course, you still have a young one, but she may want to sleep with her sisters?
Games - We like to play board games or silly card games by lantern light.
Extra batteries for the camera - Mine has auto off, but if it gets put in the camera bag wrong, it presses the button and turns it back on over and over again. I learned to always take extra even when I don't think I need them.
Sense of Humor - Things always go wrong when we pack up, and when we travel. We decided (some time back) not to let it get to us. I mean, this is a vacation for crying out loud. Now we just laugh about it, and call the tow truck. If you have a game, you can play while you wait.
Zip together sleeping bags - Lots better than separate ones. Wink, wink.
Popular Extras _____Camera and Film _____Watch _____Water Bottle Carrier _____Bandanna _____Rope (50 feet) _____Swimsuit _____Notebook/Pencil _____Clean Clothes in Car
Every scout carries these (supposed to, anyway) on every camping or hiking outing we go on.
2long, Any changes on the house, or anything else?
SS
The freakin' thing is in escrow!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Now we've got 2 figure out how 2 reinvest 2 defer capital gains.
FWSs from LTAs are weird. Mine still talks negatory about marriage, then a day later is all close. If I try 2 say anything, it's still "educating" and goes completely ignored, so I mostly don't try.
Y'all are awesome! Thanks for the suggestions for things to bring on our camping trip. I am printing them out and modifying, but there are plenty on common-sense ideas I would have overlooked and lamented bitterly at a later time. Like trash bags for dirty clothes. And lip salve.
I'm a huge board game player too, SS. I'm afraid I'm quite wearying to be around. No one wants to play with me any more, LOL! Maybe I could find some fresh meat with some of the families that we will be going with. . . LOL!
And don't get me started on my unnatural love for my own headlamp, Appy and GC! It's light is small but incredibley powerful. I burn the batteries out on that thing every week, and we haven't started camping yet.
Ti will be out of town a lot this summer, so it looks like I will be be taking the girls out either by myself or with other girlfriends some of the time. I'm going to have to brush off my .22 short pea-shooter and my old Jackie Chan movies for some moves. Oh, I forget. My Labrador would lick any intruder to death before they could reach our tents! ROFLOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
My Labrador would lick any intruder to death before they could reach our tents! ROFLOL
Oh no not a lab. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I pity lab owners over the age of thirty. I know I couldn't keep up with one. I hope you have some really, really good times this summer SLH!
LOL, Weaver. We've always had Labs. They're fantastic family dogs, especially if they're trained a la Cesar Milan.
But you're right -- I make sure to walk ours every day. Right next to the little rat dog chihuahua, ROFLOL! Yes, we're a family of incongruities. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
We had to put Spock, our black Lab, down last summer and I still miss him every day. At least he knew that a strange man in the back yard was not a new playmate. Our yellow lab BEGS people to join her! Our Gas Man just loves her! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
How do you keep them from chewing up everything? They are notorious for that, aren't they? My sisters didn't stop, even after graduating from obedience school.
I know they are friendly as all get out, though.
I'm taking P and a little friend up to GB this weekend. Going to go to the mall and try to get some sun. It is supposed to be in the 70's there tomorrow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Anybody ever listen to Greyson Capps? We watched "A Love Song for Bobby Long", and I really liked some of the songs in the movie done by Capps. Had never heard of him before. Travolta even played and sang a few songs in the movie. He did a fine job in the lead role. Played an aging, drunken [email]b@astard[/email] quite well. Reminded me of my dad (as in a hero who made a wrong turn somewhere).
There is infidelity in the movie, so don't watch if it might trigger.
My Labs have never chewed beyond puppyhood, so no advice there. But my current Yellow loves to dig! She digs in summer to lay in the cool earth, and in winter to make a snug little burrow. We always leave her outside to watch over the little ones while they play, so our yard has suffered some reconstruction. When it rains, we have a swamp.
I'll have to check out that movie. This would be a good week for that!
P likes going to the mall? How old is she again?
Sun? What's that? I've got a horrible farmer's tan!
She is 12, and yes she loves going to the mall. We don't have one within 250 miles of my house, so don't go too often. Well, we could go to Canada to the mall, but their malls are quite different than ours.
SS, please forgive me for forgetting to mention til now -- that pic is just glorious. And y'all took that on a hike? I've never in my life seen territory like that -- the closest I've ever gotten to it is the National Geographic channel.
Now that my youngest is coming on five, I hope to be expanding my horizons more. Who knows? Maybe we'll make it that way next summer. I know we're going up to Arkansas to camp this summer. . . and that's out of Texas, for a start, LOL :: big grin ::
I finally went to the Dino track museum. It's kind of cool. I know another place where there are tracks in the wild - I've seen some of them, and it's close to where I live.
Boy, I wish I could go on all those nature walks! There are days when I regret coming back east of the Mississippi. And the Continental Divide, for that matter.
But... here I am, south of the Mason-Dixon line. Ah well. At least I have popcorn. Someday I'll have a beautiful bed & breakfast to keep me busy, too.
For now, well, there's lots of other stuff going on in my world. There are big stressful things at work (attorneys involved stressful, which is never fun).
And there's HoFS' world. Sigh. For about half the really big stuff, I can't say anything about it, because it's private. But for those who are willing, you might say a few words to God on his behalf.
The other half of the really big stuff is that his mom took a bad fall and broke her leg and arm at the sockets of the associated joints. And then she had surgery to try to do repairs. And THEN she had a major heart attack and nearly died. She was on a ventilator for three days, and sometime in that she got a nasty infection. Because of that, her temperature, pulse, and blood pressure were all over the place, and things were really dicey (err, okay, they were dicey even before that) for a few days.
The good news is that they managed to control the infection and that doesn't seem to be a threat anymore. So now the "only" problems are the severely damaged heart... oh, and those broken bones that have become rather minor problems, by comparison.
They've been waiting to do a heart catheterization for the past ten days. She needed to be able to sit up in a chair by herself before they would do it, and she hasn't been strong enough for that (she's been in the ICU since the heart attack). Oh, and she's got a feeding tube, because she failed the "cookie test," which is where they try to see if you can swallow little bits of food or not.
So anyway, the heart catheterization is tomorrow, and we'll know more then. It's been a pretty stressful time for HoFS, as I'm sure y'all can imagine.
So back to my world. Here's a bit of an e-mail from my ex:
"...the relationship DD and [new husband] have with each other doesn't have to be any different than if he were her dad. And it is their relationship, which should be allowed to develop as it will. If she grows up feeling that [new husband] is one of her parents, even to the point of wanting to call him Dad, that's great for both of them and does no harm to anyone else."
Uhm. Right. Except that he's not her dad and lying to our kid is not exactly cool with me. Besides, legally speaking, DD HAS a father. Who is not her husband. For that matter, if we want to be accurate about it, I'm not DD's legal parent. I am a 'de facto' parent. The rights and responsibilities are different, as the rights and responsibilities of a step-parent from a legal parent.
Which makes the next sentence of my ex's e-mail particularly interesting:
"Causing DD to view him as having second-class status, by influencing the name she calls him or in any other way, is a huge dis-service to her."
Uhm. Right. That is the point at which I forwarded the whole thing to my attorney, because honestly, he and I are both second-class citizens, and my ex has been quite happy with that state of affairs for some time.
Oh, and one more bit of stuff out of my ex's e-mail, and then I'll go on to the really interesting news about her:
"How DD refers to [new husband] now is really up to her, and she should be free to choose without interference or being corrected."
I literally giggled out loud at this part. Here we have a 4 year old girl who's being given the option to call someone whatever she wants? Oh, sure, today it'll be Daddy. Tomorrow, though? "Poopoohead" is pretty likely. Want to take bets on how long this particular injunction lasts? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
More seriously, a 4 yo is not the right age to get to pick names for people. If she were 8 or 10? Sure, maybe. But at 4, well, it's very unlikely that she can make a free and informed choice about the matter, and she'll surely be influenced by what her parents call him. (So I never, ever refer to him by anything other than his given name. No matter how tempting "poopoohead" is sometimes.)
So, ready for the really interesting news?
My ex and her new husband are expecting a baby!
DD is absolutely thrilled about it. The other day, she woke up and, before saying anything else, asked me, "Mama, what books did I like when I was a baby? I want to take them to Mommy's house to read them to the new baby." She's sooooo looking forward to being a big sister. It's really pretty adorable.
Interestingly enough, I'm quite happy for her and for my ex. I'd thought I might be upset or sad, but I'm not at all. DD really needs to have a sibling, and I think it'll take some of the pressure off of her. And she won't be the center of attention anymore, which is also a good thing, I think.
Let's see. Other bits of news in my world. My parents were here for a week. They left on Friday, and on their way back to Wisconsin they stopped in Ohio (I went along) to see HoFS. They, HoFS and I, and HoFS' 3 boys all had dinner together. The boys were extraordinarily well behaved and my parents were quite taken with them. All in all, it went about as well as one could possibly hope. HoFS' oldest even made a CD of music that they liked for my parents (he played it during dinner and burned the CD when they said they liked it), which tickled them to no end.
They were very complimentary about the boys afterwards, which was really nice to hear.
Oh, and I finally finished every bit of the external repairs from last year's flood. All the stones are in, the planting is done, and now I'm left to try to keep them alive through these hot, dry spells we seem to be having. My brother is moving out of my basement (he's lived here for four years) next month, and once he moves out, then I'll really assess the basement and see what needs to be done down there. I'm hoping it's mostly cleanup and drywall repairs, but it's hard to tell for sure.
My internal world remains amazingly quiet, through all this turbulence. I spend time meditating and walking and praying. It's hard when HoFS is away or his life is stressful, but I can manage it. DD and I have wonderful quiet days when no one else is around, and my life is full and very happy.
And that's the news from Lake Maryland, where the women are strong, the men are sexy, and all the children are above average. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Oh JJ, I do have some thoughts on what you have written, as I went through kind of the same with P's stepmom and the new baby did take the pressure off of P (and me). I'll share more when I get some more time as I have to leave right now.
2day, a pretty blonde said 2 me "You rock!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
...which means a lot 2 a 50-something geologist with more ailments than assets.
...but then, she cc'd all the people in my original email, so it probably didn't mean anything un2ward! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Cinders you are a star <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
...but 2long is the rock of all rocks, the man, the rock of ages (not to be confused with the aging rock, though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).
I need to actually work this summer while I am at work, so I am trying very hard to not log in here during business hours.
As much as I want to get my computer at home connected again, I can't. P is now grounded from TV, computer, Ipod, sony walkman, phone.
She pretty much is allowed to read, write, draw, cook and work in the yard with me.
She messed up in a major way Monday morning at school and got suspended for three days for hitting someone. She says it was a bully and she asked for it. Understand that P has never been hit by either her dad or me in her life, so why she chose to hit someone else is beyond me. I bawled all morning after the prinicpal called me and then I realized that it will just have to be a learning experience for her, one of many to come I can tell all ready.
So she spent the last two days, sweeping, mopping, polishing, cleaning the kitchen and scrubbing the bathroom. She then had to write the golden rule 100 times.
Last night she had to write me a three page, single spaced essay on how she envisioned herself in the coming years. (I should post what she wrote here if I get the time) it was a spooky, smart-arsed essay in which she jumped back and forth from Harry Potter land and school. I should have added another day to her month's grounding just for that essay...but didn't.
That kid can be so sweet and fun, and then she can be the devel's spawn. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Thank you Faith. I have learned a lot about parenting here. I am hard on her now because I know she is at a crucial juncture, and I want her to make the best choices she can. I love that kid so much, and I don't want her to take the path's I did.
Quote
The golden rule 100 times...I'm SO using that on Leo.
GB told me he got caught stealing a motorcycle(by his mom who called the police) when he was a teen and the sherif made him write the same three pages 500 times. He spent many long days at the police station completing this task, in the summer no less. And GB says he never stole again, he never wanted to be in a police station again. It taught him his lesson well.
"Meet me behind the outcrop, baby. I'm a little boulder there." (My favorite geology t-shirt from back when I was in college.)
SS, I'll take some of those peanuts. And share my orange.
Weaver, I want to hear your story about P and her step-mom. Oh, and that writing the Golden Rule thing? I'm keeping that one, too! Just as soon as DD learns to write.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Today we had DD's teacher conference for preschool. All the usual "she's a pleasure to have in class" stuff. It's nice to hear, and yet, I sometimes wish they'd find something to criticize so that I know they're serious. Ah, well. DD is indeed a pleasure. When she's not a little monster.
(She's decided that she gets to read a book in bed instead of taking her naps. Which is fine with me, but heaven help us when she realizes she can do that at bedtime, too! Help, she's just like me!)
Being able to raise children and teach them (and be taught by them) is such a wonderful thing.
Difficult, but wonderful.
As far as outcrops go -
Someone told me (when I was about 18) a sure fire way to get most girls to accept a kiss.
When talking to a girl, or group of girls, you tell them "I can help you so you won't be so shy."
If any express interest (and many did) you tell them to "com here, and I'll show you."
When she approaches, you put your hands on her shoulders, then on the back of her neck, and kiss her soundly. After all, she wanted to know, and she came to you.
I tried it once on a girl I thought was cute. She came willingly, and I put my hands on her shoulders, and I drew her close, and she seemed to know what was coming, because she shut her eyes. Then I realized that I was playing with emotions I had no right to play with. I am sure the thoughts took only a second or so, but I couldn't do it - it just didn't seem right. I waited until she opened her eyes, and asked her if it helped. (I never did kiss her) She assured me that it had helped.
I never tried it again.
When I got to know the girl who is now my W, and we became close, I did share kisses with her, but it seemed to be OK at that point, the bond was there.
I laugh when I read those t-shirts. However, I still wonder how our society can take something so special, and sacred, and make it seem so common and ordinary. I admit I don't understand a lot of things.
I suppose that physically, it is common and ordinary. However, spiritually, and emotionally it is not, and for me it never will be.
I hope when this is read, it isn't taken to mean any one offended me, that' is not the case. I also hope that I I don't offend - I would never do so on purpose.
Thanks for the orange J, I needed that.
Walnuts today - and a few cashews. Be my guest.
I hope everyone is well today. I enjoy reading what you write, even if I don't always comment.
2long - I am supposed be taking a group of scouts on a camping trip Aug 2, 3, 4. Brianhead Peak, Panguitch lake. I may miss you then too. "Busy" is good in some ways, but not in others.
There are a whole lot of T-shirt and stumper bicker slogans that I've chortled over, but never worn.
As I was reading your story above, I was starting 2 formulate a snappy retort, but then you 2k the wind out of those particular sails.
But you did it right.
I remember being similarly "helpful" 2 purdy chicks in my teenage years. I was wiser then than I am now, in some ways. Or maybe I don't give myself enough credit now, possibly still affected by the events of recent years.
I wish that I had been more like you when I was younger, SS. It would have saved me, and many others, quite a bit of pain and unpleasantness. ("Younger" means until I was 35 years old. *sigh*)
Now I have popcorn and chocolate pudding with banana in it. Yes, both, but the popcorn is unadulterated and the pudding is sugar-free fat-free. All in all, not very many calories for things that taste very decadent indeed. I like that, and tonight I don't mind doing a little mood altering with my food. DD's young friend created a wide swath of chaos through the house tonight and I'm still recovering.
2L - I like it when the "Chrichuns" and the "Heathun" can play together. Some don't get it, though, eh? (referencing another thread....)(no inference intended...)
I like the shirts and stickers you are all citing. This one made me laugh - "In case of rapture - can I have your car?" (I know - this is a geologically inclined conversation and i am breaking the stride...)
I had a kid that worked for me whose dad was a rocket scientist. I think he was an engineer for Apollo 13.
Speaking of Apollo - 2long - you went and got me addicted. You mentioned BSG earlier. I went, based on your comment, and watched 1x01 - the first episode after the miniseries. I have been an addict since then (only 3 or 4 weeks). I am up to 3x04. (I watched it for 8 hours straight on Easter!) I LOVE that show! thanks a lot!!
(((Weaver))) - sorry your daughter is giving you grief at the moment. However, I do hope her claim that the other kid was a bully has been investigated. There's no smoke without fire!
When I was a teenager, I would make rice or noodles just so I could put lots of butter on it. Sad to say, I was a pudgy thing then -- and it's lasted 'til now, mostly.
But I've lost ten pounds since New Year's, so that's a good thing. Now I'm on a plateau, but I expect I'll come off of it now that my family is done with their visit.
Without going into all the painful details & memories of the choas my ex's current wife brought into P's and my life, suffice it to say that people come into a kind of understanding when they have their own children. Either that or they are just too dang tired to care about controlling yours any longer. LOL
She basically came into our life with the idea that we knew nothing of parenting or of P, even though she had never been married before nor had children. She also had no respect for my place as P's mother or respect for P's place as my daughter.
Her stupidity knew no bounds. I don't even like to remember those days... they are over now. I hope the same for you, JJ. Just be a gentle, loving and steady force for your DD. That is the best way.
TT, yes there is more, but it doesn't matter. She violated school rules by hitting and our rules by hitting.
For all,
Symptoms of Inner Peace Watch for signs of Peace. The hearts of a great many have already been exposed to it and it seems likely that we could find our society experiencing it in epidemic proportions.
Some signs and symptoms of Inner Peace are:
1. A tendency to think and act spontaneously rather than from fear-based experience 2. An unmistakable ability to enjoy each other. 3. Loss of interest in judging other people. 4. Loss of interest in judging self. 5. Loss of interest in interpreting the action of others. 6. Loss of interest in conflict. 7. Loss of ability to worry . (A very serious symptom) 8. Frequent, overwhelming episodes of appreciation. 9. Contented feelings of connectedness with others and nature. 10. Frequent attacks of smiling through the eyes from the heart. 11. Increasing tendency to let things happen rather than make them happen. 12. Increased susceptibility to Love extended by other as well as the uncontrollable urge to extend it.
If you have all or even most of the above symptoms, please be advised that your condition may be too far advanced to turn back. If you are exposed to anyone exhibiting several of these symptoms, remain exposed at your own risk. This condition of Inner Peace is likely well into its infectious stage. Be forewarned.
Oh you and GB both! He drives me crazy with his incessant worrying.
"worrying is a lot like rocking in a rocking chair... you can spend a lot of time doing it, but you never get anywhere"
You know what cured me, Kimmy? I realized that worrying about something was sentencing me to experiencing the very worst imagined...and it never even happened yet. I decided if the worst were to happen I would only experience it once...when it actually did happen, if it ever did.
I battle my way through conversations with my mother because of her worrying. Everything she sees on the "fear segments" of the evening news, every horror story she hears about somebody's adult child, is projected onto her family as an imminent danger.
If I'm going out, I have to be careful and make sure nobody slips something in my drink. If I'm going skiing I have to make sure I don't get in an avalanche. If I'm planting a tree I need to be careful I don't hit the gas line. If I'm going for a swim I have to reassure her about the lifeguard. It's a pathology and I get so exhausted listening to it I can't imagine what a burden it is to actually think that way. My folks were visiting recently and I had a garment drying on one of my radiators. There was no convincing my mother that it was impossible for a fire to start.
I try to be accommodating towards this insanity. When one is dismissive of a worrier, the worrier feels personally insulted. So I bite my tongue as Mom frets about everything imaginable and hang up the phone, drained. Occasionally I fail to stay silent and say something snarky, like "Yeah Mom, and that's likely to happen to me because I'm so foolish and unprepared for life." Bad GC.
This is like the obsessive behaviors many of us experience, as BSs and WSs. We had a lot of assumptioning going on (I made up that word) about our 2nd house sale that came 2 a head On Sa2rday. My W yelled at me for something she didn't even bother 2 verify as really true, and our poor realtor 2k the brunt (she was on her way over 2 pick up a paper that needed our signa2res on it, and my W wouldn't sign or let her in the house.)
Neither one of us spoke 2 the other all day.
That night, I told her 2 sign and I'd drop it off, not knowing whether she would or not. She did, and I dropped it off. Only as I was stuffing it in2 her mailbox did I remember that I could have scanned and emailed, or faxed it. It was one of those s2pid, spiteful behaviors that takes full hold of your thought processes and prevents you from being sensible. Oh well, it was a nice drive (though at $3.45/gallon, it cost me a few bucks).
Next day, I refused 2 stay angry or play games, so I brought her a Dr Pepper in the morning (she doesn't do coffee).
The whole day yes2rday was rather surreal. We did some small repair tasks around the house, and got along well. We made the decision 2 take the issues with the 2nd house sale one thing at a time. Like, if my SIL tries 2 sue again after she gets less than half what she thinks she's getting after close of escrow, we'll deal then and stop worrying about it now.
Then we went 2 DismalLand for a wedding at one of the hotels. It was performed by the guy who did my DDs wedding 2 years ago. He was great. Entirely non-denominational (non-religious, really), very sweet, and at times very funny. The groom, who was one of my DD's ex boyfriends of 5 or so years ago (she introduced him 2 his new W), wrote a set of "vows" of his own thoughts about how they met, what she means 2 him, and how he's improved as a man and a human being due 2 their relationship. It was very moving.
But boy did I feel strange. Can't describe it, really. Not bad, but not good, either. Hopeful for our M in some ways, but longing for singlehhood in others, all at the same time.
After the wedding, they had the reception in Club 33, which is really exclusive, so only closest friends and family could attend that. My DD and SIL got 2 go, so my W and I went on a few rides in the park and had ice cream sundaes while we waited for them 2 get out so we could all watch fireworks.
I reminded my W that our first "date" was 33 years ago this summer, in Disneyland. We were young and silly then, so we spent a lot of time playing hide and seek on Tom Sawyer's Island (which they're changing the name on, that's WRONG!). But we had a nice dinner with another couple/friends of ours at the Golden Horseshoe Review (where we had our sundaes yes2rday).
I tried 2 be romantic without being cheesy, and sometimes it worked, but most times it "didn't." So I kept my expectations low.
But this morning, we had SF! First time in months. It was nice.
But I'm keeping my expectations low. Hopes up, and patience in charge. It seems these days that only the stakes (mostly familial and financial) are high. I wouldn't have stayed this long if I didn't think they were. Or if my heart were on my sleeve anymore.
You guys will never believe what happened. My sister just called me (the one who rents from me and is now buying the big house and bugalow from me on land contract) and it seems that she and all her in laws were out this past weekend and low and behold, guess who saunters on over just like a long lost friend?????
Yep, that's right the rev. road rash himself.
Well her inlaws are all native americans and know full well what all went down over on #### at ####. The peninsula that now has a beautfil big house on it. The one I used to own.
And remember that my sis is the one had to go to the smokey mountains with me and P at the very last minute because he dumped me the night before we were to go on the trip (two days after I signed the property over) Sis took a week off work without pay to accompany me and dry my tears.
So they see him walking up as they sit there with their mouths falling open from the sheer shock of his audacity in appoaching my sister.
Road rash says "Hey, wow I haven't seen you in...
and sis says "get the eff away from me"
and her two BIL's stand up and say "back off thief"
and road rash turns three shades of white goes and grabs his W by the arm and heads towards the door.
the two BIL's follow him, saying "where you off to in such a hurry"
and I guess he practically runs out the door.
Now I am sorry to take such delight, and I am trying to get back to a place of spiritual peace and good will...
But YEAH for people who are not two faced!!!!!
Yeah for sis and her inlaws!!!!!! They rock!
edited out some proper nouns to protect the innocent
My mom never worried. It's a miracle we all survived our childhood. We were out from morning till sundown and I don't believe anyone every worried about where we were or what we were doing. You had to be tough to be in my family...and we were.
My gf said I am just like her mom in the respect that if it ain't bleeding or throwing up, I don't want to hear about it. She thinks it's funny as hayel. I think it's self defense. If I wasn't this way, with 5 kids I'd be nucking futz by now (some would argue that I already am).
No...my worrying isn't really about the day to day stuff...it's about future stuff...which, Weav you are ab-so-len-tootly correct...I've no control over it, so I should let it go....
let it go
like a wave on the ocean, just let it go and let it flow...
You know Kimmy, I never worry about the day to day or the future any more...but I somehow became afraid of heights and highways where everyone drives 85 miles per hour. If I have to drive over 65 I get panic attacks.
Shoot I went to "night at the arts" the other night because P was singing and I had a panic attack from sitting too high up in the bleachers. When in high school we used to run, jump and practically do cartwheels off of the top bleachers.
Weave, Kimmy, you're too cool for bleachers. You need your own loges.
BTW, there were nine of us kids. I suppose they needed the room. The first time I had a chance to come back from freshman year in college was at Thanksgiving. My brother had already moved into my room. And there was no place setting for me at the table.
'course, my dad kept writing me that year about how much he wished he could go back to college with me.
Say weave, are you near M Tech? I have a good friend who went there.
An interesting thing about some fears – they are really phobias and they are genetic. They will come on you as you get older no matter what you do. My mom has claustrophobia and it just gets worse as she gets older. And it runs in the family. Except me. I have no fear.
I have a strong feeling he was with this woman for a couple of years before he left me. He married her that same summer. And I view her as a victim. Sis says she looked very old. I would guess that she gets a sizeable chunk of money from her tribe, and that her tribe funded the house on the island as it is considered sacred indian land. The entire island was inhabited entirely by native americans up until not too many years ago.
Anyway, you never answered my question, so I'll start making guesses. Does it have something to do with tennis?
Ap,
Mich Tech is in the Keweenaw Peninsula. We call it copper country. Mi Tech is actually in the gateway, but further up the peninsula and is about as far into Lake Superior as you can get and still be on the mainland. It is absolutley beautiful up that way. Not very close to me, though.
2long,
I hope that you can duplicate last weekend. They should be the norm, and if you can make them happen more frequently it may just stick.
At any rate, I hope you are practicing radical honesty with her. I hear that you are on the verge of permanently leaving (in your mind if not reality) if she doesn't get on board. Make sure she understands what you are feeling. No secrets, right?
I don't believe you are yearning for singledom and yearning for what the marriage could be at the same time. I believe you are yearning for the freedom to act in a loving and spontaneous way inside of your marriage, as that is what the newly in love are free to do. They are not yet in a box. They have not yet become a person who is expected to act in a certain way by their spouse or fear disapproval (that look, that sigh, the rolling eyes).
I'm working on it. It's been amazing how "hard" it can be, particularly if I "try" 2 hard. My W simply won't respond if she doesn't like what I'm talking about. So I do other things.
One thing that was interesting, and not something I thought about consciously - looking her straight in the eyes for several seconds. An idea I got from the newlyweds giving each other their heartfelt speeches.
Most times, my W would simply look away. Or I would. But the other times were the ones that sparked talking about memories of our date 33 years ago.
Disneyland was "fun", but very strange at the same time. It felt "worn out" 2 me. Best way 2 describe it. Like the family is devoting their resources 2 the hotels and the Florida stuff, and less on the original park. But I'm sure that part of the feeling was due 2 our current state of our marriage.
Surreal, for sure.
-ol' 2long P.S. I 2k several pic2res of the Griffith Park fire from our tower last night. Very sad. I was born there, and we live about 4 miles away now.
I'm working on it. It's been amazing how "hard" it can be, particularly if I "try" 2 hard. My W simply won't respond if she doesn't like what I'm talking about. So I do other things.
One thing that was interesting, and not something I thought about consciously - looking her straight in the eyes for several seconds. An idea I got from the newlyweds giving each other their heartfelt speeches.
This is excellent. Looking in someone's eyes creates a bond, and if it is prolonged it actually creates feelings of love. I had read about this.
Why not try something surprising, something out of character for you as well?
I noticed that GB is very persistant, and most guys who are in love are. And that is very hard to resist for a girl. For instance GB likes to spend a lot of weekends together, and I like to have some weekends to myself. I worry about cleaning the house, or if P will act up and tell him not to come if I am stressing out over it. He comes anyway. But he makes it clear to me that he doesn't care how messy the house is, he doesn't care if all I want to do is vegitate, he doesn't care if the entire weekend is focused on P. He asks for nothing from us, just to be there with us.
So what if you surprised her on her trip to OOSP? What if you brought some fun things with you...DVD's, books, games, flowers to plant, really tasty hordevors...
And expected nothing from her. Just have a spontaneously good weekend with no (planned) serious talk.
That might create intimacy, and trust in her. It might be just like dating again.
Weaver, I figured out why you are different now. (And why I like the new you.)
You are so positive now - you look at the bright side of every situation and find good things about it. If the situation is bad, you look at how to make it good.
Thank you SS. I just want everyone to be happy. Other people's happiness is so freeing for all of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I see that someone else long ago taught that same thing.
From Matthew chapter 22 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
If everyone loved their neighbor as themselves, the problems of the world would go away overnight, and we would have peace.
Thanks for being one of those people - you make the world a better place for your being in it.
shhh...be vewy, vewy qwiet..life is peaceful and somewhat happy these days. I don't want to ruin it by saying it outloud. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Not summer, SS too hot for DS to go anywhere but Fall is looking good again. It was really enjoyable to use the Thanksgiving holiday as an excuse to get out of town. Not sure if thats what we will do this year but it sure took pressure off of having to spend it with extended family. This year we are looking into doing Disneyland. Not the outdoor adventure I hope for but for now just time with us as family having fun is enough.
If my H ever gets any real vacation time, I want to rent an motorhome that is adapted for wheelchairs so we can do the outdoorsy thing.
If heat is a problem in the summer, look into Yellowstone National Park. It is a cool place. We went late July in the summer of 05, and there was frost on our car one of the mornings, and we had to wear jackets some days until 11AM or so. Not for this summer maybe, but future. There are many trails that accommadate wheel chairs, but you can see lots of wildlife and wonderful scenery from your vehicle. We stayed in a motel in West Yellowstone (just out side the west entrance) and drove in each day, and it was fantastic. Hot shower at night, eat out, sleep in nice bed, and tour the park in the daytime. We have done the camping thing on prior trips, and we like both. I thought I would give you ideas.
You could do the same thing spring or fall at Zion, Bryce, and the North rim of the Grand Canyon. All of them have motels close by, or in the park.
You know though, I am just giving ideas, you should always do what works best. It's just that I have never seen kids that don't like the great outdoors - especially when their mom is there to make the trip more fun.
We are doing our summer vacation the last week of May. Going to Great Basin National Park in Nevada, then to a lake for a few days of fishing. We want to go before it gets really busy.
Zion is wonderful at Thanksgiving time. Cool, and not so busy as the summer. Many days are in the high 60's making it nice for sight seeing. Of course, it depends on the year, some years are colder than others.
Orchid: SS, funny you should ask. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am home with a cold and the flu. Can't go to far, if you know what I mean. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
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Hey, woah!
Hope you folks didn't think I'm contemplating DOING it.
Just that I can't get the whole [censored] out of my mind lately, 'zall.
-ol' 2long
Orchid: 2L, whew.... You gave me a scare, there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Well, my W ain't doin' nuttin'. Or that's my read.
She's still got that pic2re of Rat Meat with other coworkers from about 16 or 17 years ago on her bulletin board, and she still has his email address in her "to" list in her email account. And those are just the "little things" that I do know about. Granted, I haven't said anything about them yet. Don't know when I will (almost did at the top of my lungs when I got yelled at on Sa2rday, but that wasn't the way or the time). I would very much like for her 2 voluntarily [censored] those mementos without me asking - or without her even knowing I'm aware of them. Kind of like I said on piojitos' thread.
I think my W is still withdrawing and making slow progress, because there have been times when she's been more interested in being with me or holding hands while we're watching something on the lobotomy box. I don't think there's contact, but I can't really know for certain.
We went 2 that wedding last weekend, which she enjoyed (so did I), even though she repeated recently that she "hates weddings."
I think I can remain patient, and frankly believe I'll need 2 because of the length of her s2pid A, but I do feel as though I would end our marriage sooner than quicker if I found evidence for another A.
But I'm better at doing things with my son, or by myself, and not fretting over whether she'd rather I do something else. She would, most times. I just don't care enough 2 drop what I'm doing for her. That's not always true, though. But it is true that I won't go out of my way for her when I know she won't appreciate it.
I'm going 2 my telescope thingy in 2.5 weeks with my son in the Model A (I'm putting the overdrive in on Friday, so I should be able to FLY at 60mph! Woohoo!). Then I'm going 2 OOSP with my W the following weekend 2 open up the house and fix any leaks due 2 the winter freezes, if there are any. Then she's at OOSP with her class for the last 2ple weeks in June. Son and DD are going, 2. I get the house 2 myself for 2 weeks! Then I'm supposed 2 go out for the 4th and come home with them all. Then I'm off 2 drive across country and back for 3 weeks in August. By myself again (yipee!), unless my son decides 2 go with. But I don't think he will.
SS: You have some good times, but her not talking, and trying to ignore the whole thing still bothers me a lot.
When a FWS spouse is not on board with recovery, and with making a good marriage it tends to create resentment.
It would for me anyway.
Orchid: I agree with SS. When there is no real cooperative spirit from the FWS, then the BS can not heal properly and stay in the M. Because it puts the burden of recovery on the BS when it s/b on the FWS.
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Orchid, did your cold die of starvation yet?
SS
SS, the cold is still here and now has morphed into some kind of intestinal flu. YUCK!!! I don't like being sick from both ends at the same time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
One benefit: starving a cold isn't as hard now. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
Looks like this thread took off in another direction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Sorry.
Was your last few posts about how parents treated their children? Hm... been thinking about that one.
When I was young, I thought my parents treated me quite well. They were strict but I knew they loved me and often felt they put my interests ahead of their own.
I have my own child now. Hm.... funny how things seem different. My POV is changing as I see how much I am doing vs need to do for my own child. Now when I look back, a lot of the things I thought my parents were doing for me, really weren't for me. Putting my interests ahead of their own happened sometimes but not as often as I thought. In most cases, I just was fitted into their schedule.
Wow. Eye opener. My R with my parents has definitely changed over the years.
I take notice and adjusting so that I don't make the same mistakes with my son. Son & I have a lot of 'deep thought' discussions I wish I had with my parents. It can be draining at times and other times I am amazed at his thought process. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I think GB wants to live in the burbs of Gainesville. That's in FLA, the sunshine state.
How do you rejoin civilization when you spent the last 20 years in the woods.
My uncle told me when I moved back here to take care of my dad, not to do it. He said life would forget all about me here.
I'm thinking a condo in the city, where I can walk to work. Or a quaint little town by the beach, but not suburbia.
All my life I was told to bloom where I was planted (air force brat), and I just don't want to anymore.
I want to go somewhere that I pick, because I absolutely love it there.
If you could live anywhere all you firebugs, where would it be. Where is the nicest place in the US of A to live? I know Orchid will say Hawaii, but that is not an option for most of us....way too expensive.
If you could live anywhere all you firebugs, where would it be. Where is the nicest place in the US of A to live? I know Orchid will say Hawaii, but that is not an option for most of us....way too expensive.
The nicest place w/b where you feel at home. If it includes being around family, then the climate may not matter.
I believe that home is where the heart is. 1st you gotta have heart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Btw, it is horribly expensive here. That certainly does NOT add to the beauty of this island. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
They did a recent new feature about stress on the island. Seems working moms carry the largest stress. Hm..... I fall into that category. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Hard to have the aloha spirit when you want to spit nails because of the traffic or whateva's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It's been a weird day at work. Don't want 2 talk about it.
FL? Whole state is water-soluble. They have great planetary seeing there, but it's 2 wet and buggy for me. And I like a little topography with my beer.
I've always sworn I wanted 2 live in the country somewhere. I like the mountains and the deserts, like the red rock country where SS lives. Only I'd like a little more elevation. He fries 2 often. And there's 2 many people in his town.
I liked Ft. Yukon when I was there. No paved roads and no road access 2 the outside world. But the nights are 2 short in the summer and 2 long (and cold) in the winter. And all the cool planets are 2low in the sky from there.
I'd love 2 see the East African Rift, but I'm not in2 getting shot or starved all that much.
I loved Hawaii, though the 2 times I've been were spent on the big island. Melted the soles on my converses where the lava from Pu'u O'o flows over the road...
I think I'll stay where I am. It's big enough to have everything close, but small enough that I can recreate like I want in all directions from town.
It is too hot in the summer (as 2long said) but I am a native. The little mountain town we often go to is only 60 minutes away, and we seldom have to shovel snow in the winter. (We almost never have to shovel snow, it melts the next day on it's own.) I think I'll stay.
Weaver, it's different for everyone. Maybe you should visit a different place every month for 2 or three years until you have checked out all the possibilities. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I like the two places I've lived in the Pacific NW. I've yet to find better. They are the only two places I have lived in, but I've been all over the country, and the world.
Well, except Tuscany. I could live in Tuscany.
The worst place I've had to work in for a long spell was Dublin.
Second was Bolthole, I mean Blytheville, AL.
ed: And you can keep the East coast all to yourselves, in general.
There are some nice places over here in the east Ap. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />
You know it's funny reading what everyone wrote, we are so different in a lot of ways, but even my younger brother agrees with you about Al and '2 about Africa. He told me not too long ago that the only times he has ever been truly fearful was a few months ago on a business trip in Africa, and once when he got lost in the backwoods of Al. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
We are going to take the next five years or so and travel around as much as we can before we decide where we want to retire.
Of course retire is not the correct word as we will probably both be working at some type of job. Me, I will even consider waitressing if I have to, but I am not going to work in the corporate world or the customs brokerage business ever again.
I am faced with a tough decision right now. My DD's dad wants her to live with him during the school years. He feels he can provide more of what she needs and we both agree that she cannot stay in this town any longer. I was going to put her in the Green Bay school system for the next five years with me, but I have to consider what her dad thinks as well.
I know he has some very valid points, but I worry that emotionally she need me.
I really am having a hard time with this. I just don't know what is best, and I am not up for another court battle. Although he said he would not fight me in court, I don't entirely believe him, especially if for instance I agree to let her go with him for the next school year but she gets into trouble emotionally without me. I am not sure he would let her come back.
I don't know. You people with your families intact are so lucky. It is so hard to be a single parent faced with these types of decisions.
And yes Orchid, it is very hard to be a mom working full time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
What does P think? At her age should she have an input? I don't know, and I am thankful I did not have to go through custody stuff. I would have fought tooth and nail for primary, full custody. But at the same time I knew DS needs his mother.
DS is still having issues related to all this crap. He has not regained closeness to his mother since Plan B ended and she moved back home three years ago. He does not trust her at a very deep level. It shows. And it spills over into other things. Sometimes it seems he has no enthusiasm for anything.
I try to be understanding, but at some point I am going to have to put my foot down. It hurts already just thinking about it. He didn't cause this and he is still suffering from it.
Weave, I think P needs her mom. Teen girls are suuuuch a challenge and mine would be lost if she didnt have mom as a punching bag and cheerleader. :eyeroll:
Why not compromise and let him have her for the summers?
I think she needs her monm too, Faith. I do want her to go with him in the summers, but if he doesn't want to send her back afterward is where there is going to be trouble. She did assure me that if she wanted to come home at any time she would voice it to her dad. She is kind of shy about upsetting him and I worry she won't find her voice while she is there.
Ap, I did ask her and she started crying and said she didn't want to have to decide. She loves her dad an awful lot. But he's a guy and quite frankly I don't think he understands the emotions of a young girl, but he is very intelligent and much better at school things than I am. He is also very strict.
Your son experienced something very hurtful from his mom. I am sorry for that and I hope that you (and she when she gets through with her withdrawl) can undo some of the hurt. I hope that he is able to trust women when he grows up, but I am sure that you are making sure that he can.
Appy, have you gotten your son some counseling? I would really worry about him still having trust issues and the lack of enthusiasm. It sure sounds like depression.
Over a year's worth of a nationally recognised child psychologist. Maybe it's time to go back for a tune up. DS mentioned to me a couple of weeks ago he had another dream about mom leaving again. He remembers like it was yesterday her stepping over him while he was collapsed crying in the doorway as she left the morning after D-Day 2.
Parents who do this kind of thing to their children have something to answer for, IMO.
Maybe we can all brainstorm some ideas on turning those interests into passions.
My nephew went through some very traumatic times with his parents (very bad, violent divorce like in the "war of roses" and then ended up remarrying <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) and he became very depressed and lethargic. He even started to wet the bed at the age of 12, so bad that he had to go on medication to stop.
He is now about ready to graduate from Grand Valley University, is a competitive golfer, baseball coach and teaches a couple of jump roping classes to atheletes.
He had an interest in sports that somehow allowed him to rise above his parents problems and find passion in his life again.
His world had to get bigger, and not revolve around his parents in order to survive the trauma they inflicted on him.
All his previous interests have faded over the past two years. The first year after D-Day he didn’t do well at anything, especially school. He started doing better with school work after I talked to his teachers. But, all the other things he liked to do, like models, reading, playing outside, trailed off. And he is still not back to where he used to be in school before D-Day.
He and I get along great. On the surface he appears to get along with his mom. But when she isn’t around he occasionally says some less than respectful things about her. He minds her, but it's with resentment and resignation. He wonders where she is, who she is with and what she is doing more than I do. He has asked me on a regular basis if I think she is having another affair. I always say no, even though I can’t substantiate it.
A week ago he asked why people stay married. He said, and I am not making this up, “When you are married and your wife has an affair, is that when you commit suicide?” He didn’t even ask if. He said when.
We had a long talk that I won’t go into here. But I kept remembering all the MB advice one reads here about how it is so good for children to see the BS demonstrate their commitment to marriage and fight for the family. I am beginning to think that was hot air. Children are destroyed by a parent's adultery no matter what the BS does or does not do.
He and I are traveling together quite a lot this summer. Just the two of us. I’m hoping I will be able to draw him out over time.
A week ago he asked why people stay married. He said, and I am not making this up, “When you are married and your wife has an affair, is that when you commit suicide?” He didn’t even ask if. He said when.
I'm speachless. Kids process things in their minds in absolutes at that age.
I would imagine that a lot of his pain is from seeing you hurt. He is probably very protective of you. And this summer as you travel together I think he will see your happiness and change some of his perspectives. I hope he learns that happiness is made up of whole bunch of little things and we control it, not somebody else. So no matter what anyone else does they cannot take our happiness away, at least not for very long.
I had no idea of the pain your son has been in, and I think all of us here are aching for him.
I think he is going to be okay, now that you are Ap. My thoughts will be with him this summer.
Emile Levassor married Louise Sarazin, the widow of Edouard Sarazin and the French distributor of Daimler engines. The marriage set the stage for Levassor's business venture, Panhard et Levassor, which would use Daimler engines in its cars. Emile, France's premier car racer before the turn of the century, set an early record by driving from Paris to Bordeaux and back at an average of 14.9mph in 1895. His cutting-edge Panhard had a 2.4 liter engine and produced only 4hp. Just two years later, Levassor's Daimler engine was capable of pushing the lightweight, wood-framed Panhard to over 70mph. Imagine driving at that speed on bumpy, dusty roads, sitting on a wooden plank bolted to a frame with no suspension."
I can imagine, because I've done that with a Model A frame! (only on a paved road, it did have suspension, and I didn't go over about 10mph). Okay, so maybe I have no clue what I'm talking about! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Me too. Yesterday was a rough day as I am reading up on the disease and really trying to come to terms with what we are facing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
It's wedding season and I'm expected to do some performing, just me w/acoustic guitar singing wedding-appropriate songs. I'm getting a list together but I gravitate to stuff that's somewhat A) dark and B) unfamiliar, both of which traits are bad for wedding music I reckon.
Remember when I was young and so were you and time stood still and love was all we knew You were the first, so was I We made love and then you cried Remember when
Remember when we vowed the vows and walked the walk Gave our hearts, made the start, it was hard We lived and learned, life threw curves There was joy, there was hurt Remember when
Remember when old ones died and new were born And life was changed, disassembled, rearranged We came together, fell apart And broke each other's hearts Remember when
Remember when the sound of little feet was the music We danced to week to week Brought back the love, we found trust Vowed we'd never give it up Remember when
Remember when thirty seemed so old Now lookn' back it's just a steppin' stone To where we are, Where we've been Said we'd do it all again Remember when
Remember when we said when we turned gray When the children grow up and move away We won't be sad, we'll be glad For all the life we've had And we'll remember when
ed: And, I can’t remember the title or the singer, but this guy is singing about how he used to be her love then this other guy comes along and... Then you find out it’s her dad and he is giving her way at her wedding. Not a dry eye in the house at the last wedding I went to and that played when the bride and her father danced together. I’ll try to find it later. It's currently a country crossover, but it started out as an easy listening (is that a genre?) guitar solo.
I used to love her, but I had to kill her I used to love her, but I had to kill her I had to put her Six feet under And I can still hear her complain
I used to love her, but I had to kill her I used to love her, but I had to kill her I knew I miss her So I had to keep her She's buried right in my back yard
I used to love her, but I had to kill her I used to love her, but I had to kill her She ****** so much She drove me nuts And now I'm happier this way
I used to love her, but I had to kill her I used to love her, but I had to kill her I had to put her Six feet under And I can still hear her complain
I mean to prepare a set of murder ballads in case there ever ends up a group of embittered single people in isolation, after the old people and newlyweds have gone.
I was trying to learn happy love songs this weekend and by some compulsion I kept finding myself playing "Hallelujah" whenever I ran out of ideas. A great song, and the opposite of something you want to play at a wedding. One verse:
Maybe there's a god above But all I ever learned from love Was how to shoot somebody who outdrew you It's not a cry that you hear at night It's not someone who's seen the light It's a cold and broken hallelujah
I read about 200 pages of your sitch, but since it seems to have gone beyond your situation I did not finish reading the rest. I have always been impressed by how you changed from the way you were to how you are now. I have often wondered if your WW ever contacted you again and how you responded to her.
If you have the time and inclination, let me know.
I couldn't find the lyrics online, so most of this is from memory. I liked Peter and Gordon's version of this song better than any others I've heard, though...
"Down in the Willow Garden" - Peter and Gordon
"Twas in the willow garden Where I and my lover did stray Twas there we sat a courtin' My lover did these words say:
'Oh Willie my darlin', oh Willie my love How can you take my life? How can you stab my fertile young breast With your long daggery knife?'
I stabbed her with my dagger. It was a bloody sight. I throwed her in the river. It was a dreadful night.
My father often had told me That money would set me free. If I did murder that dear little girl Whose name was Rose Connelly.
And now I sit in my own jail cell And out of my window can see The spot where I murdered that dear little girl Down under the willow tree.
My race is run, beneath the sun The scaffold is waiting for me For I did murder that dear little girl Whose name was Rose Connelly
'Oh Willie my darlin', oh Willie my love How can you take my life? How can you stab my fertile young breast With your long daggery knife?
With your long daggery knife? How can you take my life?...'"
...that must qualify as a murder ballad, huh? I think it's really old, like 19th cen2ry or somethin'.
In a cavern, in a canyon, Excavating for a mine, Dwelt a miner, forty-niner, And his daughter Clementine.
Refrain: Oh my darling, oh my darling, Oh my darling Clementine You are lost and gone forever, Dreadful sorry, Clementine.
2. Light she was, and like a fairy, And her shoes were number nine, Herring boxes without topses, Sandals were for Clementine.
3. Walking lightly as a fairy, Though her shoes were number nine, Sometimes tripping, lightly skipping, Lovely girl, my Clementine.
4. Drove she ducklings to the water Ev'ry morning just at nine, Hit her foot against a splinter, Fell into the foaming brine.
5. Ruby lips above the water, Blowing bubbles soft and fine, But alas, I was no swimmer, Neither was my Clementine.
6. In a churchyard near the canyon, Where the myrtle doth entwine, There grow rosies and some posies, Fertilized by Clementine.
7. Then, the miner, forty-niner, Soon began to fret and pine, Thought he oughter join his daughter, So he's now with Clementine.
8. I'm so lonely, lost without her, Wish I'd had a fishing line, Which I might have cast about her, Might have saved my Clementine.
9. In my dreams she still doth haunt me, Robed in garments soaked with brine, Then she rises from the waters, And I kiss my Clementine.
10. Listen fellers, heed the warning Of this tragic tale of mine, Artificial respiration Could have saved my Clementine.
11. How I missed her, how I missed her, How I missed my Clementine, Til I kissed her little sister, And forgot my Clementine.
Well, he didn't kill her but it would appeal to all yourn troubled souls (I was going to say maudlin, but that means sentimental, and I am not getting that at all right now ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
UVA, my last conversation with my WW was in October 2004 over the phone. I saw her twice after that, in court, and did not speak to her either time. My last contact was an email response, a few weeks before the divorce was final (summer 2005), in which I (angrily) dismissed her from my life.
My ex became pregnant around the time when the divorce was final and she married her affair partner a few months later. I'm still friends with his ex-wife, who has remarried. Her relationship with them is 100% adversarial but that's all I know. I don't even know where they live. We mostly stay clear of the subject of our exes when we get together.
Since the divorce my ex has never tried to reach out to me, nor have any of her family or either of the friends she kept. It's as if 1993-2005 never happened.
I doubt my ex will ever try to contact me. She doesn't look back. She runs out of gas on something then leaves it behind and is untroubled.
If she ever proved me wrong... I have truckloads of compassion for her but I wouldn't go easy on her.
And now I am unhappy! A fella ran into me with his truck. I was stopped at a yield sign. He apologized, gave me his insurance info, etc. Now he says I rolled backward into him. Jerk!
I went to a wedding over the weekend. Two very special people. The young woman is Chinese and they met in China where he is a missionary. A good friend of the groom learned a song in chinese to sing during the ceremony. It was lovely.
gc, if you lived in our area, I'd recommend our auto insurance agent 2 you. They're awesome, always have been.
My W got hit in a parking lot a 2ple weeks ago by a kid who borrowed his friends car. Not much visible damage ac2ally, but it still came in at about $750 to repair. The guy called for the estimate before we'd had it done, but hasn't called back since we left him a message. But our agent reminded us that we got a $0 deductible for uninsured motorist accidents (I think I insisted on it after some goof rear ended my van about 15 years ago and produced entirely bogus insurance information and ID at the scene). And it didn't cost us much more for the policy.
Weaver, put on socks. If you let that great guy GB get away, I just might go for him!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
OOOH, 2long, damage is $800, collision deductible is $500. I'm going after this dude. If my insurance doesn't recover the deductible I'll take him to court. I don't even care if I lose.
We used 2 have a $500 deductible, but reduced it 2 $250 after replacing 2 windshields due 2 gravel trucks dropping rocks on the freeways around these parts.
Weaver, put on socks. If you let that great guy GB get away, I just might go for him!
You are really going to love him when I tell you what he's been up to now on his frequent trips to New Orleans and Gulf Port...
He was down right before Mardi Gras with a couple of his workers trying to drum up business with some other contractors and saw an old hotel that had seen way better days. On a whim he went inside and told the old lady who owned the place that if she would put him and the other guys up for the weekend at no charge they would do some repairs on this old hotel for her for payment for the rooms. Apparently they ended up working their butts off all weekend and got some major repairs done. They had all weekend to kill and GB just can't stand the way they are hurting so badly now after Katrina.
So now GB stays there on the weekends and does whatever repairs she has. Weekend before last they had Sinners and Saints festival, all rooms were booked and for some reason the toilets in three rooms broke. GB fixed the toilets and helped this old lady all weekend long. Her name is Katherine and now they are friends and he will always have a place to stay and someone to have coffee and share stories with. He said even the old black maid came up to him last time and said he was a keeper! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Isn't that neat? Oh, the Sinners and Saints festival is a gay festival, but GB says a lot of Christians come down with their signs and whatnot, trying to save the gays. He said it is the wierdest thing.
Thanks for the update. One thing I guarantee you, even though it may not seem like it right now, is that your WW will find a way to contact you in the future. That is a given.
In any case, I am glad that you seem to have recovered from that nightmare.
I can't wait to go with him Ap, and I will once P is at her Dad's for the summer. I just can't wait to get out of this office and rejoin the world. I will help in any way I can. I can cook, clean and tell lame jokes tell the cows come home. I can be a gopher, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
My friends daughter just got her degree in horticultural/landscaping design and she is down there now helping with the replanting with a bunch of other kids. Of course their parents are funding these trips.
GB is about out of money, and the business has not been good there because of the political problems with the rebuilding, on a local level even. There are so many scammers and theifs down there that it is difficult to get work as a yankee because the level of mistrust is so high. Because he has spent so much of his life down there, he has a little bit of an advantage but the cards are definately stacked against any trustworthy, ethical builders who are actually trying to help and not make a fortune off of large, cheaply built housing meant to do no more good than make the investors rich. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Weaver, It's really hard to read about all that has gone on there, and know what to do. We have contributed, but it's difficult to know how much really finds it's way to the people who need it most.
I know SS. It's better to contribute where you can have some idea of what is happening and control your contributions a bit.
I didn't tell you this but I often go back and read your post to me about remembering Jesus's message. I should put it in my sig line so I can keep remembering it...it gets hard sometimes lately.
Thank you for that, it meant a lot to me the day I read it and it still does.
Quote
definately
Dang, Gray. I just noticed I committed your pet peeve. Shoot, I almost never mispell that word. DEFINITELY, no "a", got it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Oh, the Sinners and Saints festival is a gay festival, but GB says a lot of Christians come down with their signs and whatnot, trying to save the gays. He said it is the wierdest thing.
A friend of mine attended a gay rights event in SFO several years ago. there was a Guy outside the conference center with a placard proclaiming that Jesus loved them but what they were doing was wrong. So, someone from the event brought his own placard that read:
Gray, you feelin' alright? No residual owies from the bender?
I've been having a blast camping lately; thank you all SO MUCH for the tips on what to bring. My kiddos are finally old enough to enjoy it and listen. We've spent the evenings fishing, catching lightning bugs, hiking, storytelling and star gazing (NERD ALERT: I've got a WAY COOL program on my computer that allows you to put in the date and your long and lat, and it will identify the constellations in your area. With our new green laser-pointer, we have a blast!). I've even progressed to cooking with a dutch oven and keeping my percolator from making syrup. SS, are you proud? This weekend we are going to the Frio River, and the next we are going diamond mining in Arkansas -- I can't wait. Even though I know I am only going to find quartz, I am still going to make a necklace of it!
Weaver, you are something for me to aspire to. I am loving the woman you have grown into, even more than the woman you were before.
I visited Pompeii a few years ago on a field workshop in Italy. Very cool place.
The things that stick in my mind about that 2day are the little tidbits of every day life you see there: ruts worn in the basalt road pavement from 2 or 300 years of chariots rolling over them; murals on walls in private homes; mosaic tile floors made from chips of marble, basalt and other rocks; the ancient equivalent of "fast food" vendors; drinking fountains (yep, they had those, 2)...
In some places, if it was quiet, it was almmost as if you could hear echoes of the people who lived there.
Are you supervising solo, or is your companion coming along with you? I hope he is.
Your girls are lucky to have you. Memories like these are sweet.
What has been the most fun so far, or is it the whole experience?
We go next week, so I am trying to get ready. We'll visit Great Basin National Park, and then drive to some lakes, and go fishing the last two days.
2long, we'll be east of Beaver, up high. Do you have a favorite spot there that you like to fish?
Weaver, thanks for the comment. You made me smile. I agree with SLH, your changes look good on you. GB is a smart guy, and he knows a good thing when he finds it. B is well?
We like Otter Lake, south of Puffer Lake. Last year when we went there 2 fish, though, the gate was locked, as the lodge and cabins there were sold some time ago. 2 bad, it's a very peaceful spot.
If you have 4x4, when you leave Lehman Caves area 2 head east, a stop at Crystal Peak is always interesting. From a distance, it looks like a snow-capped peak, because it's a whitish volcanic plug. But it's quite a long ways on some pretty rocky dirt roads 2 get 2, though. I think you can see it from the highway between Lehman Caves and Delta.
Another place that I like a lot is Pavant Butte, about 10 miles south of Delta. Nice basalt tuff cone that erupted in2 Lake Bonneville, so it's got a prominent shore platform at the Bonneville level. And on the north side is a spectacular sea cliff at the Provo level of the lake. Both there and at Cyrstal Peak, you'll see really spectacular "tafoni weathering". And Eagles have been nesting in the hollows on the cliff at Pavant Butte.
Bender? SLH, fill me in. I don't remember one. I don't do that!
It's true that I like the beer.
Car4love is having a year-later wedding celebration this weekend in Oregon and I will be there and I'll play music. Truthfully... let's just say if I keep the focus on them instead of myself it might be fun. But people are curious about me. They'll have questions. Tinman's children will be there. They ask questions. Do you know my dad? It is incredibly stressful being around curious people who know things I don't--and don't want to--know. I wish none of it still mattered but it does.
Anyway, I'm putting my head down and doing it. I've got my ticket. Whenever I feel this kind of stress I just tell myself,
Oh, that. My insurance claim dude will not go to bat for me. I have to go over his head, kick it up to a claims supervisor.
I considered calling the person who hit me and calmly confronting him, but concluded that it would do little good. A person acting in poor character just cries "harassment" in a situation like that. Or hangs up on you. And I don't want to see red about it any more.
Oh, that. My insurance claim dude will not go to bat for me. I have to go over his head, kick it up to a claims supervisor.
I considered calling the person who hit me and calmly confronting him, but concluded that it would do little good. A person acting in poor character just cries "harassment" in a situation like that. Or hangs up on you. And I don't want to see red about it any more.
GC
Yep, you should have our agent. The guy who hit my W's car won't re2rn calls now either. So, our agent will verify that the owner of the car isn't insured for the 2wit driving his car, and then we have $0 deductible and we just get the dent fixed.
Camped out Friday night. This was a boy scout scout youth leader training. We were training the boys that lead the other boys. They responded well.
I spent some time looking at the stars. I don't know much about them, but I could see the big dipper, the little dipper, the north star, and I could see Scorpio in the southern sky.
One of my friends brought a guitar. He played lots of things. Ballads, love songs, even some western ballads, and some songs he wrote himself. It was all good. I think it is so much better live and up close and personal. He let us sing along - I am not very good, but it was fun.
The night was cool, we stayed close to the fire as it got later, and later. I had a chance to think - more than I do when I am at home and busy. I thought about love, and marriage. I thought about friendship, and campfires, and stars, and the moon. Some of my thoughts were for all of you. It was a good night, I wished it could have been shared, or that we could have our own - or more than one.
We leave tomorrow morning for vacation. 5 days, and 4 nights of camping. Some hiking, some sight seeing, some fishing. I'll miss you in a way, but I'll have a blast.
Gray, I thought a lot of you, and how you are. I won't talk about it now....... it's not the time for it, and much of it ...... I doubt if I could put it to words. Please know that people care. That's for real.
I thought about car4love. Her mom, her dad, her brother. I wonder where they are, and what they are doing. I think she has sisters too, but I don't know them as well. I hope they are happy - her mom especially. We know her, and like her a lot.
"See" everyone when I get back. Or maybe even later tonight, if I have some time.
SS, the loss I experienced has long since exceeded its original dimensions. While I packed my bag to go to Oregon I took out an old book to reread. Out fell a photo of my ex that I'd formerly used as a bookmark. I didn't feel a thing. I tossed the photo in the trash with the day's junk mail. Yet...
The thing still hurts me at times. Those times are infrequent but when they come I think the right thing to do is dive into the hurt. Let me tell you.
As this weekend approached I dreaded everything about it. The more I dreaded and feared it the more I knew I should do it. That old question kept coming to me. What would you do if you weren't afraid? The answer was obvious: this.
I arrived in Portland early Saturday afternoon. I don't know how else to describe my state except to say I was incredibly sad. I skipped calling C4L right away and drove to Mt. Hood. As I drove I thought about how I was feeling and how long it's been and whether or not it makes sense for me to continue to, occasionally, suffer over those events (answer: it does). I turned on the radio to get a break and landed on a religious station, a program about grief of all things. Like magic these people were discussing the phenomenon and making points about how you have to "move toward your grief" and all that kind of thing. I laughed and shook my head; even left the station on for a while when the next program came on and the programming descended into madness.
I stopped at a trailhead, went for a long hike, took a few photos. Stopped by a river and photographed the water in 1980s long-exposure National Geographic style. Climbed and smelled the evergreens and it was not possible to feel sad with so much nature around.
Got back in the car later, and it was right back down into the gulf. Felt horrible but like before I figured it was where I was supposed to be. I returned to Portland, had dinner, added Springsteen's song "Tougher Than The Rest" to my list (awesome love song - check it out!), put my feet up and listened to Lynrd Skynrd for a while (after a lifetime of being battered with "Sweet Home Alabama" and "Freebird" I've finally discovered the band's greatness), and finally conked.
Sunday morning, drove toward the coast. Finally, finally, the wedding. It was windy and cool on the beach. C4L looked awesome. She's a real fox. They lost the ring in the sand. Someone from a group of helpful beachgoers dug it out just as they were about to give up and start the ceremony. A loopy non-denominational sort of minister delivered the ceremony. I was spared most of what she said because the wind was so loud. Heard just enough to be glad to have missed the rest. The couple and the 2+2 children between them (each has an older daughter and a younger son) huddled to hear and to keep warm. It was sweet and it made for good photos.
Later, everyone headed back to Portland and I stayed behind. There were a few hours to kill before the party. I sat on the beach and read. It started to rain and I hustled to a pub across the street where I downed a beer and finished my book.
Back in Portland, at the party, I chatted, sidestepped sticky subjects, performed tunes, and played with kids. I met C4L's mother, sister, and brother.
C4L gave me a gift. She found two old 2ndhand books from the 1960s: a 100-page C.S. Lewis screed and a book of famous historical figures' will and testaments. Nobody has ever gotten me as well as she does. The girl is too much.
I felt terrible going into the weekend. Coming out of it I feel insanely good. Making the trip was difficult but it was the right thing to do, no question.
Gray, here's to car4love and her new marriage. May she be so happy that she doesn't know what to do or say.
HoFS and I are going to be out your way soon. He has an engineering conference in the Twin Cities the week of June 18. DD and I are going to join him on the 20th and spend a couple of days out at Penny's place.
Dylan (soulloss) suggested that we have a handfasting while we're there. That might just happen. I would love to invite all the people from all over the place that I know, but it's 3 weeks away. Hard to get people to come from all over the planet on a Thursday for something like that.
It's the solstice, though, and it just seems like the right thing to do. I even have clothes that I want to wear, and wrote out the beginning of the ritual. Handfastings aren't as well-planned as other things.
HoFS and I have been talking about kids again. We went to Indiana with his boys this weekend, mostly to see his parents. His mom is still in the hospital. It's been six weeks now. Friday she took two or three steps and sat in a chair for a while. She lives in a world of pain and exhaustion, though, and there's very little energy left for anything else. There are also questions about what happened when she stopped breathing when she had her heart attack. Some of what she does now seems to indicate that the lack of oxygen didn't do her thinking much good. But at other times, she seems quite alert. And she remembers haphazardly what's going on.
It was a tough visit for lots of reasons, and also a very good one. I wish we were closer by so that we could help his dad out a bit more, and visit his mom more often. She needs care that she doesn't get from the nursing staff. Stuff like putting lotion on her hands when they get dry, and making sure she has her glasses on when she wants them. The little stuff, you know?
But I'm a 10 hour drive away from there, and HoFS is 4 1/2 hours away, and there is very little we can do besides go on occasional weekends to give the regular caregivers a break.
Handfastings and major illnesses bring, perhaps naturally, the question of life to the forefront of one's mind. Life going on, fertility, the question of being fruitful and multiplying.
HoFS would rather not do that part of being married. He's got three boys. He is fulfilled, and then some, with them. He's at the stage of finishing that part of his life, if one can ever be said to be done. He wants, very much, to have time with me that is not impeded by someone who is enitrely dependent on me/us, and who really doesn't care whether we need cuddle time or not.
He worries that he couldn't give enough attention to being a parent to another child, particularly since he and I will probably live separately for several years after we marry. He doesn't want to come home to me, after five days apart, and have me hand him a colicky baby and tell him "yours now. I'm going to bed."
He worries, rightly, about the almost inevitable negative effect it would have on our relationship.
He's right to worry about all those things. I have no rational response, no solution, no "here's how we fix it" answer.
And I want to raise more children.
It came to the foreground again this weekend, led to a conversation about it. It's a tough conversation. I see and understand how he feels. I would be more than willing to take it into account. And yet -- how can I give any real assurances that the things he worries about -won't- happen?
He worries that he's holding me back, keeping me from my dreams, from the truest of my heart's desires. He might be right.
And so we dance, standing silently together, me in tears and him hurting so bad that tears won't fall. And so we dance, and we love, and the pain of love interweaves the quiet places where there are no words at all.
Hey, I avoid "board wars" and threads where the same handful of people fight it out... so I have no idea what all that controversy out there is about. But I can't help being curious.
Well it probably doesn't help that I just used your name as an example...your old ears were ringing I suppose. LOL
I'm glad to see you had such a good weekend at C4L's wedding, Gray. Nothing like something wonderful to put the wind back in your ragged old sails, eh? hehe
I hope C4L's children will adjust well and have a good life. I wish them all the love and stability that their happy little hearts deserve.
You too graycloud!
JJ, you are going to get handfasted before I get married????? How did that happen? Love the picture you painted of your motionless dance.
We are getting married on Mackinac Island on August 18th. very small (only 12 guests)....by the water with a very nice minister we hired.
How cliche', how wonderful and simple. I am so excited now! We are going shopping for outfits soon.
And my little bro and his wife are flying in from SAT, along with a niece I adore from NYC.
P will be back for the wedding from her Dad's and GB'S 23 yo daughter and she will share a room at the Inn where we will be staying.
My niece booked a room a haunted B&B. It is haunted too...I have stories about that place.
No cars allowed on the island, only horses or bikes (and not motor bikes either).
Colonoscopies are no joke, but a physician claimed the following are actual comments made by his patients (predominately male) while he was performing their colonoscopies:
1. Take it easy, Doc. You're boldly going where no man has gone before! 2. Find Amelia Earhart yet? 3. Can you hear me NOW? 4. Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? 5. You know, in Arkansas , we're now legally married. 6. Any sign of the trapped miners, Chief? 7. You put your left hand in, you take your left hand out... 8. Hey! Now I know how a Muppet feels! 9. If your hand doesn't fit, you must quit! 10. Hey Doc, let me know if you find my dignity. 11. You used to be an executive at Enron, didn't you? 12. God, now I know why I am not gay. 13. Could you write a note for my wife saying that my head is not up there? 14. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. 15. These directions come from MapQuest? 16. That light you see means you've gone too far!
Weaver, the handfasting we're doing is a year-and-a-day, which we're treating as a formal betrothal. There are three types of handfasting. The first is the year-and-a-day variety. The second is the for-our-lifetimes variety. The third is for-all-eternity.
We're still planning to get married (the for-our-lifetimes variety) in July of 2008. Location is still wavering between Wisconsin and Ohio. We have locations in both places that are possibilities, so it's a matter of figuring out what's best logistically and all those other things.
Oh, and GC, the current fight seems to be about whether people should help when a marriage began as an affair. It is, I must admit, a very difficult issue. I'm not sure that I could set aside my own biases enough to help someone whose marriage began as an affair. At the same time, there is no "right answer" at that point, particularly if there are new kids involved. At that point, no matter what you do, some kid or kids go without having their parents full-time.
(Barring, of course, solutions that involve more than two adults in a household, which is possible, but very, very unlikely.)
Hi all. Just wanted to say goodbye. For many months now I've watched the degeneration of this site into hate, bashing, and horrific disrespect. I've stayed here in the campfire because, for whatever reason, the campfire has never taken on those qualities.
But, you know, there just comes a time when the hate washes over the edges and begins to infect everything. Though MrsWondering's quote of Dr. Harley's thoughts on gay marriage is his own reasoned and thoughtful view, I know that it will be used, here, to expand the bashing to even more people who are just looking for help.
If you're looking for me, you can always e-mail me. jbare@comcast.net will actually reach me; I rarely check the Yahoo address anymore. And you can find me over at SYMC, of course.
But, you know, there just comes a time when the hate washes over the edges and begins to infect everything. Though MrsWondering's quote of Dr. Harley's thoughts on gay marriage is his own reasoned and thoughtful view, I know that it will be used, here, to expand the bashing to even more people who are just looking for help.
Is that not a disrespectful and prejudiced judgement against this board?
I just went back and read that thread again and I don't see where there is any hate, bashing, disrespect going on...just people voicing their thoughts on the subject.
I have had in the past many a troubled evening because of the "religion" threads, and I still do but tend to stay emotionally detached as much as I can now. Reading all the threads over the years where Fundalmentalist Christianity is the main and loudest view stated, and all others are squashed before they had a chance to expand has been weird to me, to say the least, and has resulted in my no longer considering myself Christian.
When I see the Fundalmentalists teach fear where there should be comfort, hope and most of all peace...well it's been hard.
I liken this to what you must feel because of your beliefs and how they must be challenged in the same way when you read here about things that are near and dear to your heart, and things you have first hand experience with.
I read your threads JJ, and felt your pain over the very real possibility of losing your daughter. As a mother, and as a sister to all women I lived your fear and your deep grief with you. The fact that you were married to a woman and fighting for your rights to be a mother to your little girl never mattered one iota to me, only your pain. I doubt that there is a mother out there that hasn't in her nightmares felt the unimaginable grief of empty arms where her child once lay. Who gave a rip if you were in a gay or straight marriage, not I and not any other mother who has ever known that fear.
If you leave because your views or opinions differ from others, if you perceive hate where people are merely trying to understand and come to peace with their own beliefs...well I don't know if that is the way to do it.
I don't want to be on a site that is censored to the point where opposing thoughts, heated discussions and differences are not allowed. If somebody feels that tradional man/woman marriages are in the best interests of society and families, and gay marriages and/or polygamy is not, well then they have a right to voice that opinion and in their own uncensored voices.
My point is I didn't leave when my own religious beliefs were threatened, loudly, disrespectfully and very hurtfully. I became compassionate and understanding instead of those who do believe something that to me is ridiculous and in direct opposition to what I believe.
There, that was really a long rambling post that probably made no sense to you JJ.
I hope you will reconsider, as I like you here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And I don't read at SYMC (have no objections to that site though).
****EDIT************ I know. P was the coach I turned to at first. Kind of trailed off though when her own issues became acute. She missed/postponed several appointments and did not respond to several weeks worth of emails. So I eventually wandered off.
She wanted me to go into PP something fierce. It was short and effective. I never did register on the PP board though, so she may still not know the positive outcome.
One thing about SYMC I notice (I occasionally still read there) is there are no more contrite WS hanging around there than here. Maybe even fewer. Seems splintery 2x4's and honey may in the end each work just as well.
I am winding down MB also. This arriage support leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
with prayers,
PS: I will miss hearing about your DD. She is cool.
Kiras, you should find a button marked "post" when you're reading the list of topics in, for example, General Questions II. Use that button.
If you can't figure it out, ask again on this thread and we'll start one on your behalf.
JJ, I sympathize.
To note a recent battle... based on my own experience I have strong feelings about "affairages", but getting in a fight on the Internet about it just seems stupid.
Most board wars don't interest me. It's drama; that's the purpose it serves. And it's imaginary for heaven's sake! No doubt, it's easy to get sucked in (I've gone there once or twice too). But more and more I see it as just another compulsive form of entertainment.
To change gears to positive things, I now reach into the past. Here's weaver, about a year ago:
As for my weekend...I think I dreamed him up, I think I died and went to heaven and I think this one is going to rock my world! The weekend was aw[e]some, it couldn't have turned out more perfect. We got maybe 7 hours sleep total for the entire weekend. Sat night we were actually parked in a parking lot by the Locks at 3:30 in the morning, with Willie Nelson's "Angel" blasting out of his truck stereo while we slow danced. The whole weekend was just unbelievable...I never laughed so much in my life. He is the kind of guy where everwhere we went he attracted new friends and had everyone in stitchs. He's like a magnet, a happy, sweet, crazy, wild magnet.
It wasn't the first time in my life I had to start from less than ground zero and rebuild what was left of a very troubled, trusting, naive and misguided nature. It's really no more (and no less) than refusing to let your spirit be snuffed out like a flickering candle fighting to stay lit.
I don't like to be in pain, suffering is not something I am capable of doing for very long. I will do almost anything to get away from pain. I'll change my mind and change my heart. I'll take my love and pour it out somewhere else before I will let heartache keep me down for long.
Disappointment was not a shock to me, it did not lay me out flat on my back as it does so many here who have not encountered it before. You learn to be a fighter when pain comes too often to your doorstep. You learn to be strong out of necessity.
It's different this time though Gray. Almost like that movie North Country where she ways "I don't have any more start overs left".
This is the last time for me, I know it in every ounce of my being. Some days it is still a fight to reach inside and try to find some naivety, some joy, some innocense. It is work now to be happy, and blissfulness is a miracle of the moment. When I feel it, I feel the miracle that it is and it is rare.
In defense of this board, I did not have the tools I needed to find my way into a life of strong, right foundation. I needed to talk to, to be supported by, to connect with people who had lived a moral and upstanding life. I needed to know what goes on in their heads. I needed to find out that they were not the shallow, boring, narrow minded, scared to live an exciting life lot I had once perceived them as.
It is not imaginary to me, this board. It is an incredible ability of our times to be able to open up to others at the level of the mind. These are great minds here and I feel immensely priviledged to read, to share and to learn what I do from them (you included).
I didn't know how to be what I needed to be to change my life. I simply do not have in my life people who are healthy, strong and ethical. I needed to get to know people like that, and here I have.
And I never in a million years would have been attracted to the likes of GB or any other fine and decent man without a lot of change at the level of my mind. Or if I had I would have thought he was a loser for wanting me and I would have kept searching until I found another road rash.
I became someone different here. Someone worthy of being a wife and more than that I see the greatness, the humbleness, the hopes, the pain and the innate goodness of the members here. It still, in the moments when I really need to remember that goodness exists in great quantities in this world and in so many others, allows me to.
I have learned though, not to take the differences of opinion personally. I have learned to value them and treasure them for the gift they are.
That's the ticket I think, not to take them personally. I watched a very good french movie last night with subtitles and the old retired judge told a young girl that what he had learned in his life and time as a judge was that to think one knows what is true and what is not true is no more than vanity.
I am winding down MB also. This arriage support leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
Ap, we need a "vets" board. Somewhere everyone who is no longer a newbie fighting to stay afloat and bust up an affair can talk freely, without worrying about hindering or distracting the efforts of the newbies.
What do all of you think of asking for a forum like that, like a vets or oldtimers forum where we can continue to support each other in our journeys and have open discussions?
2long, We had a great trip. Drove through the big M twice. I see they are building a new railroad bridge.
I'll report on it in more depth later, but I'll be gone these next three days too.
Hope things are well with you.
Things are good, particularly as I wean myself off these boards. Working on that.
We still get stuck waiting for trains, so it'll be nice when they finish that overpass. But then, RR crossing was the only thing resembling a traffic light within 50 miles. It'll be hard 2 know how 2 behave with that gone!
My W and I were just there weekend before last (maybe when you were passing through!). (edited 2 add: My W ac2ally asked if I still correspond with you, as we were driving through St. Jawj). Had 2 open the house up for the summer. We had 3 broken pipes, cause it got so cold this winter. I hear tell the snow stayed on the ground for over a month, with nights around -30F. 42nately, we got smart and put antifreeze in all the traps after the toilet shattered during one of those cold winters several years ago.
Spousal unit is going back next week 2 teach. I probably won't be going back for a while. Lots going on here.
2nd house still isn't sold, though it is in escrow. SIL is still being a pain in the beautox.
I might be driving from VT 2 OR around mid-August, but prolly not when I could meet you and GB. You'll be pretty busy, in any case! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I'd be delighted 2 give you 2 a 2r if you're ever in my neck of the woods, though.
You are the first person we are calling on when we do make it out your way!
Are you going to be giving logistics updates on your trip like NCWalker (I think) did? That would be cool. Of course not cool if it keeps you from your MB weaning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
All the more reason we need a "vets" board, 2long. So people who are further along in their healing and moving away from the past can do so and not be constantly reminded.
I am going with GB this Friday to New Orleans, and then in July to Savannah.
We'll be on Mackinac Island the weekend of Aug 17th and 18th for the nups, and anybody who is even close to the island had better come over and celebrate with us.
Are you transitting Canada on your way to or from VT, or keeping it entirely in the states?
It's 8/18/2007 Faith. Did you see the movie "Somewhere in Time"? We are not getting married at the Grand Hotel, though. Only the very rich or very stupid can get married in that joint. Rooms start at $645/night and dinners at $100/person. Add an extra $1300 to step on the lawn and say "I do"...crazy.
Are you going to be giving logistics updates on your trip like NCWalker (I think) did? That would be cool. Of course not cool if it keeps you from your MB weaning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
All the more reason we need a "vets" board, 2long. So people who are further along in their healing and moving away from the past can do so and not be constantly reminded.
There's always iluldotcom, but we don't get a lot of traffic there. Mostly on other-than-infidelity topics, 2 (thankfully!). At least on the public 4ums.
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We'll be on Mackinac Island the weekend of Aug 17th and 18th for the nups, and anybody who is even close to the island had better come over and celebrate with us.
Are you transitting Canada on your way to or from VT, or keeping it entirely in the states?
Looks like, if I do go 2 the Oregon Star Party after Stellafane, I'll be crossing the upper middle of the country on the 13-14th of August. I suppose my route will depend somewhat on speed limits and roads. I leave VT on the morning of the 12th, and would need 2 be in OR on the afternoon of the 16th!
But I still don't know what I'm doing or which way I'm going.
A friend said he might want 2 go with me. If he does, I don't think I should call attention 2 the fact that I've survived infidelity by visiting a lot of my MBer friends. No offense 2 my MB friends, but this friend has known me and my W for almost 30 years now, and the cluster of friends he's in is distant enough that exposure 2 them was never needed (wouldn't have been helpful, either), and close enough that we still enjoy seeing one another a few times/year. I don't want my W 2 feel uncomfortable around them, particularly as she's ended her A and is withdrawing nicely (but very, very glacially).
If I'm alone, of course, I'll try 2 meet as many MBers along the way as I can and have time for.
That is a cool forum 2long, it's too bad that it is so slow. I guess after everyone leaves here and moves on in their own recoveries we'll just have to meet up on gray's blog.
What say ye graycloud? I bet we could discuss politics there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Or not.
Thanks Faith. P seems excited. She is with her dad for the summer, but coming back for the wedding. She seems to treat life as a great adventure. Her personality fits for what is happening on both sides. Yeah for that!
GB saw P's paternal grandmother's phone number on his cell phone from when we were up at his place and P was in Canada at her Grandma's. He took it upon himself to call this lady last Friday and ask her to talk to her son to get P to call home more often. She's too happy and busy to miss me at the moment and I should be thankful for that, but it kind of hurts. I can't get the kid to call me, or to talk to me more than three seconds when I get her. She did call after GB got involved though...once, for three seconds. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Remember when her Dad was thinking of splitting with his wife and they had the little girl toddler? Well Paige was beside herself with worry over how it would affect her little half-sister. Who she would live with, etc. Her dad then decided to have another baby instead of divorce, I guess, and now has a brand new baby boy. He and his wife are reportedly doing very well.
Yes, P has the kind of personality she needs to be in her families.
Life needs to be treated like an adventure. It's the only way one can keep riding the waves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
i saw you ask Aphaeresis if i ever posted to her. i have not. i had not seen her until today. To answer your question, i am still around a bit. i don't post much because i have lost heart in thinking i can be of help. i certainly failed in my life. i see she will be confessing once they are in the same location. so it does not seem she needs convincing that confessing is the thing to do. what were you thinking i could do for her?
FL, I don't spend much time around here either, but I still skim over GQII every so often, and I thought of you when I imagined that other user's uncertainty about what will happen when she spills the beans.
2long - I looked for you're van while I was passing through, but of course, I don't know which house to look more closely at.
What did she say when you told her you did still write me sometimes?
I kind of like that town - if it wasn't so cold in the winter. Winters here are much nicer.
We leave on our trip Friday - When I get back you can tell me how things are in OOSP, and what project you are working on this summer. Sorry I've missed your coming and goings.
Weaver, I love reading about your success, and happiness. I know you still deal with every day life, but the GOOD PARTS of life shine through in your posts, and that is so sweet.
Hi Faithful !! ( I know you are part of "Everyone" but I couldn't resist.)
We drove the ranger pickup that trip. Spousal unit is out there with her class now. She asked if I'd like 2 meet her there on my way back from Vermont in August (though she'll be home for about a month before I go). I might do that, but I'd still like 2 go back 2 the OSP where I went in 2003. I like the remoteness. Extremely peaceful. But I'd have 2 make sure I have enough power for my cameras, telescopes and computers I'd be hauling along...
She didn't say much when I told her we still correspond occasionally.
The other day in her home office, I noticed that the pic2re with RM in it was about 2 fall off her bulletin board. I was hoping it would, so I could step on it or something, accidentally.;) But after I left, I noticed she secured it. She's also got some interesting quote up there about friendships. 2 me, that was a bit dis2rbing, seeing them there 2gether. But it is her process, and she is making some progress, however slow.
The buyers finally qualified for the loan on our 2nd house, but they're not likely 2 get the interest rate they want. I hope they suck it up, do some repairs, and refi down range. It's what I'd do. But we'll know in a few days, hopefully.
So now we've been back and forth, on an off again with this 2nd buyer. We canceled escrow last week, getting the approval of the buyer's realtor (and the buyer, we thought), because though they qualified for the loan, they didn't like the interest rate and wanted 2 shop around AGAIN for another lender.
But I got a call 2day from our realtor that the buyer was in tears when she got the word from the realtor (like what's the deal with them? We canceled on Thursday!). she wants 2 can her realtor and work directly with ours. Ours asked what I thought, and I said they should go ahead if they want. But we have another person interested in making an offer this week, so they'd better get on the stick.
Friday, I got keys 2 the house. My SIL had changed the locks last summer, sure enough. And the lawyers were telling me we couldn't have access while she was in there. At first, I wasn't going 2 go over there at all - just let it sell and be done with it. But I got curious, and it's a good thing I did. The house had a mural over the fireplace mantle of a wooded landscape that was original 2 the house (built in 1907 or so). It was a high quality 2 or 3 panel painting about 5 feet wide and 2 high. It was mounted into the overmantle, with glass over it and trim details around the edges. it was NOT a pic2re hanging there on a nail. It was built in2 the mantle!
I called my BIL, where my MIL was visiting, and told him 2 have his mom relay the message 2 my SIL that if the mural isn't re2rned, I'm calling the police. I won't give her any of her disbursement per the settlement agreement until it is re2rned.
I asked our realtor if she remembers when it disappeared, and apparently she never saw it. So that means that my SIL removed it before she came on board in March and started showing the house.
I'm sorry your SIL has yet again put you into such a crappy position.
What is it with people, anyway. You think that by the time one gets to a certain age they would just know that there is absolutely nothing that is worth stealing. I just can't imagine wanting any thing so badly that I would steal it.
Well GB did steal my heart, and I could still kick his [censored] for that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SS, yes the day to day stuff...THUCKS! But I tredge on. Bread pudding and rum sauce sure helps. I learned some killer recipes in New Orleans! I've been a cooking fool ever since we got back. My red beans and rice are absolutely to die for, and don't even get me started on those little meat pies. I'm just out and out bragging now, so I'll stop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Not only did I go back 2 make sure the painting isn't anywhere in the house (in case she puts it in a cabinet or something and claims it was for safe-keeping), I found a pic2re I'd taken of it when we had the house refied a year and a half ago.
I don't recall the artist's name, un42nately, so I don't know its value.
But if it's not back by 2morrow, when our lawyer is back in the office and can advise, I will call our homeowners' insurance company and file a police report.
Last week I went to New England for my job. I met wonderful inspiring people. They took me mountain biking and had me to their houses for dinner. These were real Yankees; white collar pros who go home after work and feed the sheep and chickens.
This weekend I stuck around in the Northeast. Went camping and sea kayaking in Maine. Saturday a harbor seal followed me for a mile while I paddled down the fjord in the middle of Mount Desert Island. I'd stop and turn my head around and we'd watch each other a minute, then his head would vanish below the surface. I'd paddle for a minute and look around again, and there he'd be, ten feet off the stern, sniffing and blinking.
Sunday after breaking down my camp and going for breakfast I sat on a big rock by the Atlantic and read The Road. My paperback took a terrible beating as I battled horseflies and read. A few hours later I finished the book. I was sunburned and devastated. This book hit me right where it counts.
Next I climbed a mountain, half jogging up the wash that passes for a path, following blue blazes on trees and rocks. A little Maine mountain but a mountain still, with scrub and wind and cairns marking the routes above tree line.
Feeling some age in my knees and ankles from the descent, I drove my rental to the southwest shore of the island where I sat on the rocks a while longer. Ate chocolate and listened to the waves and to the ringing bell on a buoy marking this side of the channel.
In Bar Harbor I parked myself on a barstool where I had two beers and a good dinner, then spent my last night at a B&B.
I was all alone for three days. I had cell phone service only once, when I hit the summit of Sergeant Mountain and the phone in my backpack went beeeeeeep.
Friday morning I bought The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan before I pulled out of Manchester, New Hampshire. I must have listened to it ten times.
Both nights camping I built fires and sat alone roasting hot dogs and drinking beer and thinking thinking thinking...
I love the way you can go on trips by yourself and have a fabulous time, graycloud. I really envy that quality. Maybe it's a guy thing, to be able to do that.
We got back last night at about 7:00 pm. 10 days is a long time to be away. From the dates you give, your trip will be time short, and mileage long. Those two don't go well together do they?
Anyway, we're home now.
Gray, was your trip good, or bad, or both?
Weaver, the food sounds good. I gained 7 lbs on the cruise, and it needs to come off now - so I love to talk food here, where it's safe, and won't make me gain. I love red beans and rice.
Faithful, a cruise would work well for your family. We saw quite a few in wheel chairs, and they seemed to have a great time. The cost is the hard part. It's easy to have a good time.
Nope, didn't close 2day. Buyers didn't realize that they had 2 pay closing costs, so they got another loan 2 cover them. Close will be Friday now, ...hopefully!
2, I hope it goes down on Friday then. It often goes like that. At least, it often did for us. I learned a lot about what not to do. Mostly I learned that there are lots of folks that will take advantage of you if they can get away with it.
geez 2long that is really WRONG! Good for you for checking things out first.
Hi SS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
hello, gray, slh, appy, weaver, JJ and anyone else I missed.
FAR are you coming to the fruits and nuts get together?
Faith - it is my intention to. Since we planned it, I have also planned a road trip back to Texas with my kids. My daughter's birthday is the 13th, and then my mom and dad are taking the three of them to East Texas via the grand canyon and some indian reservation. I will follow after work on Sunday, beat them there and visit with old friends till they get there. Then we will work our way back, seeing grandparents the kids have not seen in 4 years. (I feel like a heel, rightfully so)
XW moved her BF into their house a month after they moved in in Feb. She has been saying he is just a "roommate", but the kids know what is going on. Very frustrating indeed. Before we go on vacation, I will ask her if she will kick him out. I do not know if I should elude to my next step, which is doing the legal work to end spousal support.
No, I haven't been 2 OOSP since last month. My W and son are coming home 2morrow from there. I'm going 2 try 2 get some big fixit things done 2day and 2morrow around the house. Biggest one will be removing the temporary bearing wall in the middle of the dining room.
I should be heading out that way on the 3rd or 4th of August, on my way 2 Vermont. I'll have my friend in tow, but maybe we could meet for dinner or something, depending on timing. I'll keep you posted.
Ac2ally, if it looks like there's room in my van for 3, with all the parts for the big scope in it 2, my W may leave her car at OOSP and ride back in one of the school vans. I'd be giving her a ride out in that case, 2 re2rn there and pick up her car. But I'm kinda thinking that the scope will take up so much room that I'll only have the 2 seats.
My W wants 2 buy the Atkins. 75 room Victorian hotel. I've been inside a month ago. It needs about half again as much money in repairs as the asking price!
cool FAR, then I will finally meet another camper besides 2long! She is trying to pass off her bf as her roommate? Like the kids are stoooopid? Geez, great example there.
Whenever I travel there are times when I feel an especially strong sense of loss and sorrow which obviously arises from the business of 04-05. There are some wounds that never fully heal.
Today I'm playing hooky and working on my boat. People who walk by my garage used to say "Whatchya building in there?" and now they say "Ah, so you're building a boat!"
Tomorrow I'm having a cookout for my oldest brother. He's getting married in two weeks.
We're not too far from Houston, and it has rained every day here for the last three weeks. Every single day.
The last four days have only been 30% chance of rain. And yet it has poured. . . incessantly. This is not funny any more.
On a good note, I have refinished, stained and polyurethaned the front porch swing, built a water fountain, grouted and tiled the MBath, installed new bath fixtures, sanded part of the arbor I am building,
My Beloved will either be in Witchita or Argentina (LOL) and I am jonseing for another road trip. The rain has brought out all the worms, so I have lots of bait to fish with, my
Hi 2long - we saw that motel when we went through. What does she want to do with it?
I bet the price would be pretty good.
Gray, I was thinking............ I read that account of your trip, and I wondered. When ~I~ have lots of time to think, I notice that I there are both uplifting times, and depressing times, depending on where the thoughts go. So, I wondered........ hence the comment.
As you know, I have not been where you have been, so I just think about it, and I try to send good vibes.
I remember that you were going on a cruise SS; has June passed already? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> What a wonderful trip for you and Mrs. Seeking! Did you Whale Watch, Kayak, Hike? Will you be going on more cruises?
That photo's gorgeous. Where on earth is it? I see mountains. Ah. . . Alaska, hmmm? Yes, I can dream. . .
See that path? I'm putting one in like that in my back yard leading to my (under construction) water garden . . . that is, when it is not raining, LOL. I've also already put a patio of sorts like it under that swing I just refinished, all with flagstone. Of course, neither of them look *quite* so good, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I'm learning an awful lot about landscaping materials and such. And can I say, I have always hated and detested gardening, because everything I have ever planted has up and died almost immediately, but just this year I have gained a new appreciation for growing things. I am loving watching my plants thrive.
I'm babbling tonight.
Gray, I hope I don't sound insensitive. I apologize. I hadn't read further up then a post or two. Perhaps I should have. I hope you are well, darlin'.
Kimmy, my darlin' the next time we go to the Frio and I can swing it, I'd love to get together with you for an hour or so if you are up for it. You live in the perfect place for a stretch-your-legs-break for the kiddos on the way to Garner! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SLH - My three kiddos and I will be in the homecountry from about the 17th to about the 25th. Tyler, Rockwall, and Dallas are the planned destinations, but I got a call that my grandfather - 93 yrs old with alzheimers, is slipping fast. I had planned on stopping to see him on the way back to SD. He is is in Haskell - which is about halfway between Rule and Throckmorton, he was fond of telling people. I am not sure what that visit will entail at this point....
My XMIL told me it rained 21 days each in May and June, and a majority of July. Sounds wet.
I would love to go back to San Marcos and swim in the river next to my alma mater, but we will not make it to South Texas this trip.
From the last day of our cruise. Butchart Gardens, Victoria BC, Canada. Evening, just after they turned on the lights. ~ The Sunken Garden ~
We did a number of shore trips - mostly bus or small boat tours, but we also walked a lot. I should probably tell more about it, for those who may be interested.
We may do more cruises if we can save up for another one.
I'm glad your gardening skills are improving. I'm glad you are glad.
And please send us some of that rain. It is much needed.
My W wants 2 buy the Atkins. 75 room Victorian hotel. I've been inside a month ago. It needs about half again as much money in repairs as the asking price!
There are probably grants available for restoration if it is historical, which I am sure it is. I'm sure your wife is aware of the various gov grants that would probably pay for almost everything. Thought I'd mention, just in case.
SS, have you heard from Binder lately? I often wonder how he is making out.
Binder, if you are lurking... throw a finger in the air and let me see where you're at. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I have not heard from Binder in ......... more than a month, but I think it's my turn to write him. With vacation, then youth conference, then the cruise, I am behind.
What I know about him that I think he is OK with me talking about - He has a girl friend. He likes her a lot. Things are going slow at his request. The kids are doing well - better now, than during. His employer is taking care of him, and his schedule is good for taking care of his children. He has said almost nothing about his XW. I think he prefers not to think about her - and the past.
Maybe we can get him to post - I'll drop him a line.
Purchased my wedding dress last week while on vacation, and GB sent P's dad money to purchase her outfit. (wasn't that nice of him?)
GB shut down his business in Green Bay. He is in the process of working with an atty to get it all cleaned up. It was a contracting partnership with his brother who he found out was stealing large amounts of money from the business to support his affair <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. (and I think, though it is just a theory, a drug and gambling problem).
I think we will eventually move (this spring I hope) to Savannah, GA. After much research and discussion, we decided it is growing very rapidly and destined to become a "hot" market opportunity, so will be good for us business wise, as well as for our souls).
P's dad was ready to go to court with me to allow P to stay with him during the school year, and I was ready to go, but P called and begged me to let her stay. I still haven't given him my final answer, but told him I am now willing to consider it.
So that and the wedding is causing me some stress.
Weaver said: So that and the wedding is causing me some stress.
Glad it's not just Graycloud and I that have stress. (grin)
No, really, it sounds a lot like normal life. Or that life is normal.
I often wonder what things I should write, and what I should be quiet about.
For instance -
SLH is quiet about her relationship with Ti.
That could mean things are really good, or it could mean she is repressing her feelings, and they will come out one day and bite her. I think about it, but I haven't said much. I realize my musings about it bring it out - but I am not asking, jut thinking.
I think a lot about gray that I don't comment on either, and you, and faithful, and 2long, and everyone. (yes, you too kimmy, you know I do.)
Just J could use a good campfire these days too, but she doesn't feel safe, and that is a big thing for her.
Thanks for the little smapshot. I did really want to know. I am so sorry that GB has to cope with his own brother doing these things to him. That's so sad. However I am glad he has you to think of. Sometimes I wonder if you gals know how much you mean to us. I mean, we are often so poor at communicating our feelings - but knowing you are there at home, taking care of things means a lot to us when we are away. I know he is often away.
You can be sure he thinks of you often. I think you realize it.
(((Weaver))) It has to be very difficult to hear P beg to stay with her dad. Perhaps it will be good for your new upcoming marriage though. Such a hard thing to ponder. I want to see your dress, btw!
Kids are well, SS. DD is a typical 14 y/o with all the hormones <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> and DS is growing and healthy as can be.
Our twins are 14 too. It is an interesting time in their lives to be sure. I bet your daughter will get through it Ok though. After all, she has you to help her.
I am glad DS is doing well.
To be honest, part of the reason I asked was to see if your answer would reveal what the stress of raising two children was doing to your overall health and condition.
It didn't tell me as much as I wanted, but it did show that your attitude is good. I am happy for that. (grin)
LOL, ss you are sly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Right now I am just trying to enjoy where there are in their lives. Having a near 24 y/o at home still teaches me that time passes much too quickly in the lives of children. DD is wonderful but a handful as well. I am the safe parent so the primary target for her anger and frustrations. DS, well I am enjoying his good moods, his good health and his beautiful smile. Despite his challenges, he is still a 9 yo boy and likes the same things other boys his age does. We are in the middle of reading "Captain Underpants" books to him. Honestly with him, I try not to look backward or forward as their is too much pain associated with doing that. It helps to learn to live in the moment.
I cannot imagine having two 14 y/o in the house at once! Wow, you must be challenged at times LOL.
Kimmy, I am so glad you are doing GREAT. I bet you used your "Tony the tiger" voice when you said it too.
SS = challenged at times.
I'm only challenged on week days, and week ends.
The twins have been a wonderful blessing for me. For many years I read to them nearly every night. (we never did get to "Captain Underpants" though.) They trust me, and they know I expect a lot out of them, and that I only ask for things that will be good for them in the long run.
So far, so good. We love each other a lot, and it helps.
Thanks for the additional info Faithful. It did help. I'll tell you what I got from it.
I believe you are doing quite well over all. Your faith in God sustains you, even though things are often difficult. You tend to look on the bright side these days, even though you don't know what will happen long term.
It looks like you love your husband, but still struggle with trust at times. That trust must be there to go from doing OK to doing GREAT. I believe you have a good enough attitude that if you KNEW your H was on board 200% you could go through almost anything and still say you were GREAT. I see your H won't be at the Big Boy with you this weekend. Well, I assume the three is you and the children. If he is not going, that could mean you don't want him, but more likely is that it's not something you see as a good fit. Meaning...... you may not have even asked him, because you couldn't see him doing it. If memory serves me, he works a lot of weekends, and time off is hard to come by. It would be easier to save it for something you see as more important. I wonder if you have a desire deep down inside somewhere for him to know it's important to you, and have him move heaven and earth to be there with you. When he got there, he would say " I know you are all so important to Faithful, so I wanted to meet you too." I'm still up in the air about that one. I have not seen you talk much about how things are going with him lately to have a really good feel for it. (besides that, it's a weekday today, and I'm challanged.)
There are other unknowns -
I don't know how your job or his job are. Financial problems can overshadow almost any thing else in our lives and keep us awake at night. Job stress can also affect how we feel about the other parts of our lives.
So........
DD is a challenge. Most 14 year olds are. You may worry more than some moms, because of things you have been through personally. I think you have enough faith to believe she will be OK in the end.
DS is a joy some days, and a lot of work others. A mothers love covers a lot of ground though. You have that love - and you wouldn't give him up for anything.
Taking things as they come is what we do when we don't have a clear view of the future. Sometimes we can plan for the future, and expect those plans to come about. Usually that takes a H, and a W on the same page. I would guess you don't have that in place yet in all areas of your married life. The future is still cloudy to you, but you try not to worry about it. Faith if a wonderful thing. I commend you for it. My personal belief is that you are on the right track.
There are a lot of other things I would ask if I thought it was fair-
However, this is enough, and I won't worry about you. (Well, only a little.)
Have fun Saturday. I have more then once thought of showing up just for fun. A line from a poem comes to mind though, and I know I won't be there. "For I have promises to keep, and miles to go before I sleep. Miles to go before I sleep."
I should probably say something to get you to smile now. I read back through this and it sounds so serious. (grin)
Night all. Or afternoon? Evening? Life can be such a challenge.
SS
Later edit -
I could have brought your mom into the mix, but remember, I'm challenged.
SS, have you heard from Binder lately? I often wonder how he is making out.
Binder, if you are lurking... throw a finger in the air and let me see where you're at.
Hiya Weaver....I'm still around....barely....as much as I like all the folks here...I seem to have tied a string around that portion of my life and packed it away.
The quick blurb from SS is accurate but could use some expansion if you're so interested. I need some well earned sleep right now, but will soon make the time in my frantic life to let you know some of the details.
Yeah, we all want to know what you have been to. The new love, the wild adventures, the chitlins.
I think it's good you have put a string on the past and wrapped 'er up. I'm about ready to do the same, but I still come here to talk. I don't know why cuz these people are all half nutz. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Faith, thank you for understanding. It's hard, but she needs to be where she can thrive and for some reason she just really needs her dad's attention right now. Also she is allowed to babysit her 2 yo half sister and gets paid $3.00/hr...so she loves that.
I'm really sorry about your mom, Faith. I hope she lasts a very long time before she declines. I think I heard they have medicine now that helps slow the progression down.
SS, Yes it has really got GB down to have to close down this business and what his brother has done to him (as well as the employees and his wife is just about killing GB). He told me he can' stand to go to his office where they operated out of, said it makes him sick to his stomach and it's almost more than he can make himself do.
On another subject, I don't understand why JJ got so upset. I kept reading that thread and I just don't understand. She is in a tradional R now...well I think I must have missed something. Someone must have said something to her that really upset her. She is usually the one with the level head over these types of things.
JJ, if you ever read, I hope you are doing really great!
Hey! Good 2 hear from you. And, of course we want 2 hear what's up these days - even us guy units!
Weaver: I don't understand what happened with JJ entirely either. I remember the threads I think she was referring 2, but thought that they were pretty even-handed as far as I could see. I haven't seen her post much on SYMC either, but I don't go there all that often.
Looks like my friend and I will be driving from Vermont 2 Oregon through the midsection of the country around the 13th or 14th. I'm leaning toward heading over Huron and under Superior, as we'll be going 2 Vermont under Michigan, and I don't want 2 cover the same tracks again if I don't have 2. Small possibility we might stay in Canada over Superior, but I won't know for a week or so (friend is getting 2gether the AAA route stuff next week).
But it sounds like you and GB will be pretty busy around then! If you're not, though, and can recommend a good greasy spoon for us 2 stop in on the way, it might be fun 2 say "yo"!
2long, we will be very busy then. Both of us are trying to liquidate everything we own except some antique furniture I have that I will haul with us when we go to Savannah. It's a sea port so I can transfer with my company, which was one of the reasons we settled on it. Plus the real estate thing, and I refuse to live inland.
Oh and that reminds me, did you see my post about the gov grants available for restoration of historical buildings and homes, regarding the property your wife is interested in?
Also, I wanted to let you know that I learned in a seminar outlining 1031 exchange rules that you only have to rent out the "like" property for a year, and actually you only have to show a good attempt to rent if you are absolutely unable to get it rented that first year. After that you can live in it if you so desire. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And you would be surprised at all the different options that can be considered "like" property. But an old historical Hotel would be fun to own. I stayed at the old Hotel in the French Quarter in New Orleans that GB has helped out with on occasion and it was just so neat. (partying is not my thing so I wouldn't live down in that district but still) The help was excentric as all get out, and I can so picture myself working at or owning one. So I think what the two of you are looking at is very exciting, for the whole family probably. (you probably know all this stuff, but I am learning all about real estate, and I really find it interesting)
Gray, good to see you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
We're going 2 make sure we look in2 the options available before buying that hotel. It'll also likely be owned mostly by my W's non-profit, though, so it's not going 2 be a big chunk of our cap gains rollover - which means we gotta by more [censored]!
GC, I forgot you're up that way. I'd love 2 swing by and say hello. My friend is retired from working on Voyager for almost 30 years. He can tell stories...
I'll keep you posted when I know our itinerary better.
Weaver, my mom seems to be progressing faster than I had hoped. It is very difficult to watch and I know it very stressful for her H. Thank you for asking.
Looks like my friend and I will be driving from Vermont 2 Oregon through the midsection of the country around the 13th or 14th. I'm leaning toward heading over Huron and under Superior, as we'll be going 2 Vermont under Michigan, and I don't want 2 cover the same tracks again if I don't have 2. Small possibility we might stay in Canada over Superior, but I won't know for a week or so (friend is getting 2gether the AAA route stuff next week).
If you get close to the port of Sault Ste. Marie, let me know because if GB is in town, we would love to meet you for dinner or lunch, however that is a Mon or Tue and the week of the wedding, so it is unlikely he will be here in town that early. And P is coming home for the whole month of Aug... but hey, there's about 30 to 50 more years available ahead, to meet up over viddles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Oh, I wanted to add that I am glad you are driving around Lake Superior on your way back, because I think it is the most beautiful of the Great Lakes, it's almost downright haunting. Isn't it Gray?
Gray, we are starting a new business and have to go where something is going on and I can't work in my business in Green Bay, not that I really want to stay in this business but I can't afford to quit (just yet).
If you want to go way up there to the far northeast where people talk funny, I say...get going! Once you get remarried and start having babies, you will be kind of tied down.
Faith, my uncle had that so I know how sad it is for everybody. It was really hard. I just wish something would be discovered to stop that horrible disease.
If you get close to the port of Sault Ste. Marie, let me know because if GB is in town, we would love to meet you for dinner or lunch,
Sounds like a plan. I'll post an update from my Treo en-route, if it looks like we'll be in the area.
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however that is a Mon or Tue and the week of the wedding, so it is unlikely he will be here in town that early. And P is coming home for the whole month of Aug... but hey, there's about 30 to 50 more years available ahead, to meet up over viddles. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I thought it was victuals(?) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and 50 years? I plan on vying for the title of "Best Daisy-Pusher in the Bone Orchard" that year!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
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Oh, I wanted to add that I am glad you are driving around Lake Superior on your way back, because I think it is the most beautiful of the Great Lakes, it's almost downright haunting. Isn't it Gray?
I don't think I've ever been there myself. Been 2 all the others, though.
Wish I could drive the Model A. But it would take a buttload more time!
If it's okay 2 post the name here, I'll do that (I really don't know). Otherwise, email me and I'll give the phone number as well.
Coinkydinkally, some friends of ours just completed an exchange a few months ago with the same company. They were very happy. We've only just started with them, but it was good 2 hear that our friends were satisfied with the process.
I vote that yes, Rip Van Winkle must still be sleeping.
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I thought it was victuals(?) and 50 years? I plan on vying for the title of "Best Daisy-Pusher in the Bone Orchard" that year!
I've never heard of victuals. Is that fruit and nut talk? Around here we say bittles (that's short for beer and skittles <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
GB had a dream that he expired at the age of 87, sitting on a bench in what he thought was our garden next to our house on a beautiful big hill. I was next to him and I still had long, dark hair. He said it was very peaceful.
Like it matters... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
From dictionary.com:
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Usage Note: The modern pronunciation of victual, (vĭt'l), represents an Anglicized pronunciation of the Old French form vitaille, which was borrowed into English in the early 14th century. The modern English spelling reflects the fact that in both French and English the word was sometimes spelled with a c, and later also with a u, under the influence of its Late Latin ancestor victuālia, meaning "provisions." The word is now occasionally spelled vittle rather than victual, but in either case the pronunciation is (vĭt'l).
My oldest brother is getta-maddied tomorrow morning.
Today we had the rehearsal and at dinner I chatted with the fellow who will preside. He's an Eastern Orthodox priest.
We discussed global politics, war, and the Middle East.
We talked about how frequently a belligerent approach toward one's enemy fails.
I found myself playing both sides.
He talked about "self-righteousness". I asked what the term meant to him. He spoke about ideological disagreements between people and how steadfast certainty that your position is correct is... the road to ruin.
I have to say, I largely agree.
I understand there are times when evil has the upper hand and good people must become fierce. Absolutely.
And I think of people who suffer at the hands of perpetrators who are not sorry, who do not acknowledge that something they've done has been damaging or hurtful or destructive. How eradicating it is to suffer at the hands of such a person and how certain I am about who is in the wrong in those situations...
Naturally I think of myself in these discussions but honestly I try not to.
Yet - and sorry if this is terribly inarticulate, but I don't feel like composing something clear - I have this feeling that what this priest said is true. That no matter how sure you are, particularly as a victim (don't even think about getting on some "don't be a victim" tear over my use of that word), that the other guy is wrong and that you are right, that damning that other person makes you suffer terribly.
It's unfair. There's no justice.
You have to let go of it.
You have to give up on what a terrible jerk that other person is and stop wishing them harm. You have to give up on requiring that they spend their lives sleeplessly suffering for what they've done.
I agree, GC. I was thinking about you today. I found a copy of an email you sent me two years ago. It was very touching to read even this much later. Congrats to your brother and may he have a long, happy M.
I used to know a man who's response to 'How are you?' was always to smile and say, "I'm able to sit up and take nourishment". He died a few years ago - at the age of 90 or so. Even though he was a member of our 'grumpy old men' group at church, I miss him.
You know, if you can sit up, take nourishment, enjoy good books and talk to others you are in better shape than many people. If you can get up, lock your abode, go to work, earn money, stop at the grocery on the way home, fix dinner, log on and chat with others around the world, you are so blessed.
OK Weaver…..this one’s for you….since you asked and SS called me out.
I’ve been conspicuous in my absence it seems….yeah…but for all the right reasons I believe. I’ve been engaged in my life for the past while and actually feeling quite healthy in most regards. I still have those moments of self-doubt; the times where the past failures nag at my peripheral vision and attempt to sidetrack my personal growth, but those moments are transient and fleeting. I’ll give you the hard data first.
XW? Seems to be living the life of Riley. Her affair shows no sign of deterioration or termination. The home-wrecker still lives in his city 300 km to the south and she here, but he does have an airplane to commute and she continues to work part-time to keep her time free to pursue her affair. In fact, she has recently purchased and is about to move into a lovely home in the neighbourhood near the river worth close to 1 million bucks. There’s no way she can afford that on her own even with the presently inflated prices houses are going for and the equity realized in her house. So….obviously Dr. dalliance his footing the bill. Moving in? I dunno. Why? He can have his shag pad here and carry on in his business and see his children back in his city.
Bitter? Me?
I used to love riding my bike to work. Best part of the day at times. I too live near the river here and can ride to work along the trails just popping into the downtown core to ride the last km. to my office. On the way home I need to struggle up a long hill and then slowly make my way down a gentle slope for the final push to my house. Now….just as I regain my breath from the hill I am presented with the site of this expansive home right in front of me. I guess I get to look forward to that view with this piece of slug phlegm occasionally holding my daughter on the front porch. Plan B goes on…..but I think I can only maintain it for another 40 – 50 years.
As far as the kids go, my son turns 10 soon and my daughter 6 this fall. They’ve adjusted as best as they can, but I remain wounded by the situation that was forced upon them. My schedule at work has remained constant so I continue to work 4 -10 hour days with weekend off and I have them all weekends. My employer has been great with my situation and has even granted me a promotion last fall. My parenting arrangement is up for a review this fall as my daughter has reached school age. I will attempt to maintain the arrangement as is and will be having an interview with one of the most reputable family lawyers this city has to offer.
OK…now for the salacious stuff.
Met a girl.
She looks like an absolute high maintenance princess…but nothing could be further from the truth. She has gone camping with me, been out to the cabin and showered in my jerry rigged propane tank outdoor shower, and has even landed a pike with me. Absolutely drop dead gorgeous….nearly 13 years my junior….never married…..no kids.
But…..she has the typical “modern philosophy” towards marriage though I’ve been able to get her to re-evaluate her position on the sanctity of the union. She has met my daughter, but not my son. He has been, up until recently, hostile towards the idea of anyone in my life. I’m going slow with that….real slow….it has been a point of contention with her and she has pressed for further involvement in my “family life” I’m not so sure yet….I’m not sure I’m ready to commit to a single person just yet and would not want to involve the emotions of my children with someone that may not been around forever. Her age also gives me some concern. I mean really…..30 is more of an expiry date than an age isn’t it? I need me a 20-something year old!
OK….just being flippant, though the age difference does give me some concern if I were to make this a more permanent arrangement.
So….that’s it in a nutshell. A superficial summary to be sure, but I figgerd I’d share. I lurk on occasion but reading these posts almost feels like looking at a photo album at times. I say to myself: “Was that me?” It seems like another life…so long ago at times…like yesterday on occasion.
The banter is comforting too. Good post on “letting go” GC. I’ll get there one day.
Well, that was worth the wait. You are a good writer, Binder, with a great vocabulary. I love that. Still got a llittle humor going on, too!
You have a beautiful mind, and I just can't wait until your writing reflects all the beauty that this life has to give.
I'd say from what little you wrote, that you are not in love, and on marrying again... you have all the time in the world. She sounds like a great girl, though, and a lot of fun. I mean dang, Binder, you must still "got it". LOL
There is only one thing that can truly heal a broken heart, and that is love.
I used to think it was all about forgiveness, but now I am not so sure. Maybe forgiveness is just too broad or more precise, perhaps too limiting a word.
I don't even think I have forgiven road rash. I just simply don't care. I can't say however, that I want good things for him, because I don't.He deserves bad things and I would like to see him get what he deserves, so true forgiveness must have alluded me, but I have forgiven myself and I am happy...and I love.
You guys, I read Depak Chopra's "Buddha" last weekend, and it was such a good book. It was written in story fashion, and I just couldn't put it down.
It blew my mind about how Buddha threw away all notions of searching for our higher self, or searching for God, or even if there was a God, and instead found upon his enlightenment that it is within our own right-mindedness, within our own mind that we can obtain enlightenment, or in other words freedom from suffering.
Well I can't really explain it, but it sure was a beautiful story.
On another note, I have been searching for the most awesome fragrance I can find as a wedding gift for GB. We both love expensive perfume but neither one can justify spending $600/oz on a really, really great one. So I am going to buy him something outrageously expensive. I have been ordering samples from all over, and I think I finally found one at Lucky Scents in L.A.
So how totally shallow is that????? To be obsessed with perfumes? Isn't it wonderful? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I could laugh out loud at the beauty of it.
That's why I am not really posting on the board anymore, it seems like the wrong board to be jumping up and down with love for life and all it beholds... insensitive to the pain here.
weaver, I think you're wrong. I think that this forum needs those kinds of reports. Deep, shallow, whatever. Happy is the point, IMHO. Those in the throes of this infidelity crap need 2 know there is a "real world" that looks nothing like what they've come 2 accept as their reality since d-day.
My W still believes that life sucks. I prefer saying that "it pulls a good vacuum" because that's stating it more positively. It's also funny, and uplifting because it's funny. It's taking the crap by the horns (does crap have horns?) and shaking the sh... well, I'll stop there. Meta4 is getting a tad grody.
I also think there's nothing wrong, really, with not forgiving phlegm bag, or whatever his name was, or Rat Meat, or whatever HIS name was. It is sufficient 2 simply remove them from your conscious life.
Forgiveness of self is the key, and one that my W can't yet bring herself 2 do. And so I think she still suffers unnecessarily. I try 2 help when I can, and when she'll let me. But I don't let it get me down 2 much if she won't let me.
Binder? You live in the GWN somewhere doncha? but possibly the western GWN...
All: I'm firming up my travel plans for next month now.
*SS, If you're going 2 be around the afternoon of the 4th, send me an email with your ph number - I lost it when my last phone distappeared.
*I think SD is in Kansas or somewhere like that - on my way 2 Vermont. I should be driving east on I-70 through thereabouts on or about the 5th and 6th.
*We've got a couple of possibilities for the trip from Vermont 2 Oregon, but we're leaning 2ward going through Quebec and Ontario and between Huron and Superior. Probably dip between the 2 lakes on the afternoon or evening of the 13th.
*My friend's daughter lives in Wisconsin somewhere, so we may go there for a few hours. Then I think it's across Minnesota and one of the Dakotas 2ward Oregon. We need 2 be in central Oregon by the afternoon of the 16th. So gc (and others?) in the almost GWN, it'd be cool if we can find a beanery or something 2 scarf foodies on the way.
*After Oregon, we'll probably head down the 5, stop at my sister's in Auburn for a night, then bip the rest of the way home on the 21st.
Stuff like that. No biggie if folks can't make it. I would imagine that weaver and GB will be busy pouring bottles of "stink pretty" over one another that week, in preparations of tying one on (the knot, that is).
weaver, I think you're wrong. I think that this forum needs those kinds of reports. Deep, shallow, whatever. Happy is the point, IMHO. Those in the throes of this infidelity crap need 2 know there is a "real world" that looks nothing like what they've come 2 accept as their reality since d-day.
You are probably right. For me, it was the women on this board who are successful in their lives (happy, loving, at peace with themselves) who by reading gave me direction in what I wanted my life and myself to be like. Also the men who were dedicated to the big picture, spiritual so to speak, who gave me an idea of the type of man I should be choosing to be in P and my life.
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My W still believes that life sucks. I prefer saying that "it pulls a good vacuum" because that's stating it more positively. It's also funny, and uplifting because it's funny. It's taking the crap by the horns (does crap have horns?) and shaking the sh... well, I'll stop there. Meta4 is getting a tad grody.
I also think there's nothing wrong, really, with not forgiving phlegm bag, or whatever his name was, or Rat Meat, or whatever HIS name was. It is sufficient 2 simply remove them from your conscious life.
Forgiveness of self is the key, and one that my W can't yet bring herself 2 do. And so I think she still suffers unnecessarily. I try 2 help when I can, and when she'll let me. But I don't let it get me down 2 much if she won't let me.
This is interesting because I spent a large part of my life trying to understand why my dad was bound and determined to drink himself to death. It had to do with the two years in Nam, I do know that. The last couple of years of his life I tried so hard to get him to forgive himself, even giving him a copy of Thomas Moore's "Care of the Soul" one time after detox while he had a long stay in the hospital. In the book Moore tells of a (greek?) story where this man commits some sin and ends up being visited by the three furries who bring suffering on him for seven years while he stumbles around in the desert. Finally after all this suffering the guy says "God, I have had enough. I have paid for my sin. I don't want to suffer anymore" And immediately the three furries leave and he is visited by three ferries who bring happiness and good fortune to him for the rest of his life.
My dad didn't get it, but I did. And so will your wife one day. One day she will choose happiness. She is not self- destructing with booze, gambling, etc. so she will get to a place of self-forgiveness and happiness.
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Stuff like that. No biggie if folks can't make it. I would imagine that weaver and GB will be busy pouring bottles of "stink pretty" over one another that week, in preparations of tying one on (the knot, that is).
Binder: "Good post on 'letting go' GC. I’ll get there one day."
Me too, dude. I like what weaver said about "forgiveness". As I've said before we need more words for these phenomena. For my part regarding my past I see no need to forgive. I consider it irrelevant.
I never read the newspapers anymore, or watch the news because I can't sleep afterward...so it's been many years since I have but on a food blog I frequent sometimes, I read this story about horible abuse done to an African Turtle belonging to a little autistic boy... and thought of Kimmy and 2long, our turtle lovers.
What ****** is wrong with people anyway.
The turtle is going to make it, thanks to intensive care and a tube feeding medicine into his neck, and lots and lots of money... arseholes!
It's cool that this turtle is helping the little autistic boy. In college I had studied autism as a focus as I wanted to work with autistic children, so this story on two levels, just ticks me off to no end.
See below:
Bob, a friendly, 42-pound African tortoise, remains in intensive care in a Santa Barbara animal hospital after the pet was snatched from the backyard of a Ventura home over the weekend, mutilated and left to die behind an apartment complex. Authorities are asking for the public's help in solving the case, believed to be one of the worst incidents of animal abuse in Ventura in years and one that could bring felony charges.
Bob's neck and leathery legs were slashed and his dark green shell was stabbed repeatedly in a possible effort to re-create an episode of the Discovery Channel's Man vs. Wild cable television show, where the military-trained host kills and eats a tortoise to survive, an anonymous caller told the family.
...Bob was more than a household pet to the Sullivans, whose 6-year-old son William is autistic and until a couple years ago didn't speak to humans, communicating instead through sign language.
But with Bob, the little blond boy, who also has the rare neuron-genetic disorder Angelman Syndrome, was a regular chatterbox. The approachable reptile opened an inexplicable window into william's inner world, and the boy would bare details of his days at school and of private life, his mother said. - Ventura County Star
Queen Whackamole at Fuller&Fuller - "the couple is facing hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars in veterinarian bills." Jeanie Vaughan at Turtle Dreams is working with the veterinarian treating bob... Bob seems to be in stable condition.
I don't like to watch the news either. It's too depressing. I notice that there are a lot of good things happening all around me, and they seldom report on that.
changing the subject - I thought your mind would be going around and around. The decision you made to marry was a life changing one. Some life changing decisions are for the better, some for the worse. I believe yours will bring you much happiness.
It will however be an adjustment. MB stuff is great for working out the details. I highly recommend Harley's materials.......... it has helped us a great deal.
SS, I think it is going to be the best decision I ever made. We won't actually live together until spring, and I believe it is going to be such an adjustment for both of us (he has never been married) that this adjustment period will be a blessing.
You know SS, if it wasn't for this website he would not still be with me, because I already would have blown it. I practice the Harley stuff all the time now.
Last night we had this convo on the phone where I said sometimes conflict is good. Sometimes people fight. His response was that you absolutely do not have to fight. Intelligent people know of better ways to communicate than fighting. They discuss things. You are smart, and I know that you can come up with better ways than conflict for getting your point accross. Imagination is a great thing.
So anyway, GB hates to fight. He cannot stand raised voices because it takes him back to a childhood filled with anger and hateful DJ's.
I love him so much SS. I can't even explain it. He has these crooked teeth, that are really crooked and he mentioned braces for himself after our wedding. And I don't care one way or the other, but I said if they bother you get braces, but you are already so goodlooking and I don't want anyone to steal you away.
Well he said, I am not going to get braces at my age. I just wanted to see if you wanted me to.
He is so not vain, and yet he is so confidant. I have never known anyone like him.
I try not to go on and on about him, but I just can't believe my good fortune. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
How about you tell about your day at Big Bob's. How fun, eh? It just sounds like everyone had a blast. I kept thinking that guy in the picture looked just like Drew, the comedian. Even had the same name. LOL, no lie, and then I read it was.
I am here alone at work and it is so slow for some reason. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
GB is on his way to town. He wasn't going to come until tomorow, but just called and he is almost here. Dang, sure wish I'd cleaned the house more, and wore something different to work.
Don't guys know that girls don't do well with surprises? Oh boy.
I am only lurking. I can't count my blessing that I don't know where to start. 1. I found Lady Elina 2 years ago, we fullfill top 5 of each other ENs so good ... we have the same ones except in diferent order. We went to MB weekend and met Harley's ... all of them including Jennifer C. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ... we were the only one that is dating. We got M a year plus. LU$ still over flowing ... we can't live apart. Harley's method rocks !. She is with me in Omaha watching my daughters competitions. BTW: I fixed the link to RollerSkating. They moved it and I didn't check it again. Now it is fixed. Look for Junior World Class Women Freestyle and World Class Freestyle Women Inline.
With good relationship skills going in, well you just don't develop bad habits or unhealthy dynamics. We are all so blessed having those now.
E/N's are hard for me to grasp, but I'm getting there.
D'J's though, they hit me like a ton of bricks when I read about those. Wow, how blind we are to what we are doing when we don't know any better...the damage and the hurt.
Well, I am using up all the oxygen for the fire all by myself.
Yeap They were just going to middle school and high school when she filed.
Luck is things going way beyond what we plan/hope for. I stick with roller sport to stabilize my 2 D ... Their mom didn't want to pay a single dime and I didnt' care. Now I am watching them winning 3rd and 1st place on their event in National. They skated their best. Next week they will try out for JWC and WC InLine ... the top 2 winners go to World Championship. They will get there, it just a matter of time.
I couldn't beleive my luck. Chinese proverb said ... you can't refuse bad luck and you can't chase good luck, all you can do is plan and do it best you can !. (Luck might come your way).
Weaver, I know you are off doing something romantic but yes Bob's was grand! We had loads of fun and it was fun to meet another camper. I wish 2long could have joined us again.
Wanted you to know that we seemed to have a turned a significant corner here. Not gonna say much else but that GC would be shocked at how much things have changed in the past 2 months.
Wanted you to know that we seemed to have a turned a significant corner here. Not gonna say much else but that GC would be shocked at how much things have changed in the past 2 months.
You can't elaborate, hey? This is nice to hear, and I hope it is the new beginning your marriage has needed. I hope he has had a life changing aha kind of thing, Faith.
Thanks, AD. It wasn't me on the TV. I was a few miles away when it happened. Crossing that bridge is not part of my routine. It's been a week since I last drove over it.
Nobody I know was affected, except one friend whose boss was in the collapse (and fortunately was not injured).
Gray, good to hear you are OK. I don’t even read on MB any more, but I wanted to check on you. One less thing to worry about.
Wait, the elevated viaduct here is rated lower than that bridge was… and so is the floating bridge…and the McMillan Street Bridge scored only 2 out of 100...
Homemade pizza with pink sauce instead of reg. pizza sauce - crust was whole wheat. Topped with whatever you wanted. Also choice of dipping sauce, ranch or honey....don't knock the honey on your pizza crust if you've never tried it. Uber num with a little pizza sauce and cheese left on the crust.
That was what was for dinner. T'night it's leftovers - shepards pie, fajitas or pizza, your choice.
Dropped back in to tell you a cute story.
OCDS lays down with me on the couch last night facing me and puts his arm around my neck and pats the back of my head. "I loves you sooooo much, mommy," he says. "I love you too," I tell him. He then proceeds to inspect my teeth and gums very minutely. Once I have my tongue back I ask, "Are you going to be a dentist when you grow up?" In all seriousness he replies, "NO. I gonna be a TREE." "Oh," says me, "what color tree are you going to be?" My solemn brown eyed wonder says, "A dark one."
We don't call it 'leftover night' at my house, we call it 'multimedia night'.
There is a small bridge but it's fairly high - over a creek and a railroad track - which they are discussing tearing down and rebuilding - a small 2 lane bridge....fairly short. They are saying this is a 2 year project....I use that bridge several times each week to go see my mom, go to dr appts., or take daughter to work. YUCK!
I was unhappy about that news until the collapsed bridge.
I guess the fire is out or dying down. I am picturing Weaver and GB gloriously happy on their honeymoon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
SS, my dear friend <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Doing a little better all the time. Baby steps all the way out of this murky, muddy water.
BTW, I have an acquaintance with 2 special kiddos that went to zion in the late spring. They really enjoyed it. Still on my wish list of things to do.
Kimmy, bribery is the absolute best tool we have in the old tool box. Everyone understands bribery. I still use it on P as often as possible. It's how our world works. In fact, I happen to have a bone chilling essay on how bribery is much more effective than torture in getting info out of POW's...but it's probably not the time or place for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
It's Mrs. to you! LOL I said that already to someone.
Can you imagine getting married for the first time at 48? Everyone is getting the biggest kick out of our wedding. (first for both of us)
Faith, we had the best time. We only had 16 guests, and we all stayed on the island in the same Hotel. We hired horse drawn carriages to haul us around. It was just a blast.
And yes P enjoyed it very much. I made a fopah on our wedding night, because GB was out partying with the rest of my family at this really neat dockside bar and I didn't have the heart to keep P out any longer, so I went back to our hotel and fell asleep with her. So the wedding has not been consumated yet. Is that too much info?
GB has to wait until the honeymoon, and he keeps making little comments about it. All in fun though. At least I think he jests. I don't know, but it was so much fun.
My little brother from SAT gave a big speech, all about me, when he was growing up. Something about a Stevie Nicks CD I gave to him, and some artichokes I made him eat one leaf at a time after dipping in butter... LOL I loved seeing him. He's some big shot now who flies all over the world and makes boocooh bucks, but he'll always be my baby brother.
And I gave every single guest a toast. LOL, it was all very corny.
Ah, no wedding night? Should make the honeymoon that much more exciting. I knew you were the kind of mom that would put P's needs ahead of your own. Probably one of the many reasons GB loves you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
The wedding sounds wonderful and I love that you toasted each guest. Intimate and warm, very nice.
Were you hauling any moonshine in that wagon, 2long?
Did you watch the movie whose name I can no longer remember that I advised you watch? You know, the old cars and Vermont and running liquor thing?
Gray, is the big bellowing black smoke clouds of our fire showing up on that radar screen of yours? We are finally getting rain, but it is burning wildly over 27 square miles now. And the strange thing is is that nobody outside of the U.P. seems to be covering it. No one else even knows of it.
Well heck, it is a very big fire, and Pine Stump Junction has been evacuated again!
Tell us your plans again........ and the time table.
Okay, here goes. But you can't issue a fine if the time schedule changes. Deal? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
GB back in his home town now, coming up this weekend for a goodbye party/lunch for P who is leaving to go back to her Dad's for school year. She will spend all school breaks and summer with me.
GB to be finishing shuting down the business for the next two months and selling property and then coming here to help get rid of mine.
Me to be working on my license this winter and transferring with my company in the spring.
In spring we move to Savannah where P will join us for summer. GB will probably go much sooner then me.
We are going to Savannah for honeymoon, to make sure we actually want to move there.
Oh this is funny SS, so I have to tell you.
I asked GB to find out the crime rate down there and if they will like us, since we are yankees.
So he called up the Chamber of Commerce and asked if we will be "damn yankees" if we move down there. LOL The Chamber said absolutely not, they love snowbirds and have lots of them.
Then he called the city police dept and asked the officer who answered the phone if they were doing a good job of keeping the streets safe. The officer said he was busy filing a police report but would transfer him to a laison. The laison told GB all the stats and exactly what parts were the nicest and had the less crime.
Now, I never would have thought of actually calling these places.
Um. If'n you don't like Ga, I know some people that would more than welcome you in SAT.
Oh Kimmy, I tried so hard to talk him into SAT, but he just does not like TX. But, you never know. My SIL from SAT is now working hard on him. That was my first choice, yanno.
SS, he knows all about you and your lifestyle, and your cool business and I will tell him you said "hi". Both you and 2long are on our list of people we most want to meet in person someday...we'll get out west someday.
Now I have been reading a very interesting thread over on recovery because I am always compelled to read what he has to say, as one of the great minds of this world...
and 2long, I am not trying to float your boat, but this brought tears to my eyes. You get it. Thank you.
Quote
Am I looking for something particular in life?
Yes. I'm looking for Heaven.
I've caught glimpses, and made them mine. And I share them with my loved ones or my friends when I can.
But those moments of peace and joy don't come from another person. And they're gifts 2 be shared "just because", not out of obligation.
I realized why I loved Jesus so much as a child, not as a religion because I now know I skipped over all the religion stuff looking for truth, or some grain of it in what I read...I loved Jesus because it made me immensely happy to know that there was at least one person on this planet who was so holy, so good, and in knowing there was, it made God a possibility for me. Now of course I am grown and read of others in other cultures. But our language is so limited that so much gets lost, that it is so hard to have a convo with anyone regarding what life and God, and death means to us.
Quote
Yes. I'm looking for Heaven.
I've caught glimpses, and made them mine. And I share them with my loved ones or my friends when I can
Oh jeese, I just reminded myself of something from the movie "midnight in the garden of good & evil) where John Cusack put his hand out to shake hands with the old voodoo lady upon meeting her, and the voodoo lady says "are you trying to work me boy? put your hand back in your pocket"...
I'm not trying to work you 2long, just a little " yeeessss! with a big high-five" LOL
I invited Suzete here, as she is has been hurt by a thread that is now deleted. I didn't read the thread, but have spoken to her and asked her to come here, and told her this would be a safe place for her on this thread.
It breaks my heart to see her change her name from Suzete to ______ (nothing) because she has been made to feel ashamed and scared here. She has done nothing, yet she has been told she is an evil and vile woman. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Some dramas are best missed, I believe. I wish I could have missed a lot of mine! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Suzete: A hearty welcome!
weaver: Thanks, I think! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I saw that movie ages ago, before d-day. I was much less clued in in those days than I like 2 think I am now. I musta missed that message about the handshake.
I hope 2 meet you and GB someday, 2. With some advance warning, I can probably show you some flight hardware that will be on Mars someday.
I missed whatever happened, you can talk about it or not. It really doesn't matter.
Just come and talk. This is a great place for that. Relax, watch the fire, and get warm. What does matter is that the campfire is a safe, soothing place to share. I hope you come around.
Tell your Hubby "hi" for us. He's a good man.
Weaver said: I loved Jesus because it made me immensely happy to know that there was at least one person on this planet who was so holy, so good, and in knowing there was, it made God a possibility for me. Now of course I am grown and read of others in other cultures.
I have come to believe that there is nothing so important as finding God. It's not for him, it's for us. It's hard to put what you learn about God into words. When we are used to looking at a physical world, and using physical proofs for things, it's hard to get a handle on "living by faith."
Suzete sent an email this morning asking me to thank you all for your kindness, but because of the nasty names she was called, and the bullying, and the way it has affected her, her DH doesn't want her posting here any longer.
She also wanted to let everyone know that they are very happy and are going on a second honeymoon in two weeks to Mauritius.
(we'll both be honeymooning at the same time. stars will definitely be shining brightly across the atmosphere then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Mauritius (Africa), how wonderful is that. I looked it up on the web and it looks absolutely gorgeous. Wow! Good for them.
I didn't tell you guys that GB sang the song "Yellow" by Coldplay for me on our wedding...'look at the stars, look how they shine for you, and everything that you do, they are all yellow" LOL He always sings that song and then laughs out loud, the song just seems to tickle him to no end.
We got married under a gigantic old Ash tree (GB cals it the hanging tree). My spike heels sank into the soft ground during the vows and when I tried to turn around and walk away from the minister, I tripped and fell. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I had to take the dang things off on the way up to the tree. Should have left them off, I guess.
We had a pianist at the dinner reception who played the theme to the Titantic for us, and everyone danced. That was the extent of the music we had, but that's okay.
I'll have pictures soon, I hope. Want you all to see how pretty the island was that day. And how cute my hubby is!
Friday/Saturday I raced in a 24-hour mountain bike relay. I took shifts riding at 6:30 P.M., 11:00 P.M., 3:30 A.M., 8:00 A.M., and 12:30 P.M. Brutal event. Riding a bicycle uphill through the woods while getting rained on at 4 A.M. is hard to call fun.
We had an awesome crew backing us up. Every time one of us left to do his lap, our D.J. (yeah we had a D.J.) would send us off with the Rocky theme.
For me, at the end of each of my laps, he played "No Woman No Cry".
Sunday we celebrated my old man's 75th birthday. I went to his church (he loves it when I do that) and we threw a big party after.
This week I'll work 12-hour days 'cause my office is holding a workshop.
I know I've been in my house during the month of August, but I've pretty much always been asleep those times.
Yeah, I'm busy 2. I shouldn't be posting, I should be reading and reviewing. Long days. Only 1.5 of them so far, but our group is flying through the list as a result.
We may get done early. If so, I just may hie myself on up 2 Milwaukee in the ol' rental car and take a pic2re of myself and Gertie for the MB Photo album!
Looks like we're going 2 finish a whole day early, so...
faced with the decision of staying another night in a hotel so I can go see a bronze duck, versus going home a day early and having a 4 day weekend at home...
Homemade hamburgers and organic chips for dinner, SS. My 'mater plant is still growing like crazy. A gf came over at lunch today...says it looks like a mutant...LOL. I think it's cos I tell it to "GROW dernit!" on a daily basis.
2long, I don't think you will break Gertie's stone cold heart. She couldn't care less. She has so many admirers that her vanity gets the best of her sometimes.
However, if you were to choose to take off and avoid MBland, we would miss you.
Oh gosh, SS. I made the most AMAZING thing last night.
I made homemade sweet and sour sauce with pineapple and mandrin oranges, used it to top chicken breasts and wrapped the whole mess up in fillo dough. IT WAS SO TOE-CURLIN' GOOD!
Def. a make again supper.
And you're gonna love this, Friday I was testing an elbow noodle for doneness when boiling hot water shot out of the middle of it and burned the h-e-double-hockey-sticks out of my lip.
I wonder what kind of spiders they are. I couldn't see where it named them.
I was bitten by the Brown Recluse when I was in my thirties, and it was the nastiest thing what that spider did to the back of my thigh. It ended up being this big, gaping hole with rotting skin all around it. When the spider first bit me my leg go so hot, I swear for about three days I though my leg was on fire...then the rotting starting. Gross, hey? It took months and months to heal. The doctor said there was nothing to do, just let it heal. Now I know I could have died.
That was hilarious, 2long. I'm going to send it over to customs and see how their sense of humor's are holding up today. LOL
Ouch Weaver. I suffered my first wasp sting this summer - near my armpit. Your spider bite sounds just horrid. You are definitely allowed to be an arachnophobic! How's married life treating you?
Last time I got bit by a bee, I actually cried. They hurt, eh?
Married life? Well it's been almost two weeks, he spent quite a few days here last week working on my house to get ready for sale and we both pretty much just walked around in a daze, saying "wow, were married" and things like that. He says about my cooking..."my gawd, you are such a good cook, I just may have to marry you someday" LOL
We were advised by his atty yesterday to do up a post nup (should have done a pre nup, but the atty must have been sleeping when GB told him he was getting married cuz at that time he said "no big deal, don't worry about it"
This is in regards to the failure and subsequent closing of his business in Green Bay. Although it was a corp, he had given personal guarantees and that opens up all personal assets.
I really don't have anything that doesn't have a gigantic mortgage attached to it, so I really don't care...except about my credit.
P is the benefactor of my life insurance, and I have the antiques and such handed down from my family in storage for her...so she is protected in case of my death. Although in MI, he will still get half of the life insurance regardless, by law. 401K is also protected by law. So that is all good.
I stare at my ring about 50 times a day though. It is still so hard to believe.
Oh, and I took his last name. That was very important to him. You know, it must be the old "me man, you woman" thing, but I did it. My non-independent behaviour, I'm very proud of myself for that! Because I said I would never give up my last name, and he said no hyphenated name either.
He's a little bossy, but I just laugh. It's all good.
Weaver, why not set up a revockable trust? Then your 401K and life insurance can have the trust as the beneficiary? Those are protected here in CA as well and the spouse's signature must be notarized. I took my H's last name for the same reason.
I get the jitters over anything financial. I worry terribly about money. Wish I didn't although I believe one person in most relationships takes on this 'burden' more than the other. Weaver, you're a gem. Take care. TT
I never worry about money, I can't stand to even think about it.
For this reason, GB will handle our money (once we are liging together). He watches it like a hawk. He always says "don't mess with my family or my money" cuz that's where the end of his fuze is.
You didn't answer TT, but how was your trip home this summer? Did you have a good time with your folks?
Weaver, yes you can put your mortgaged property (ours is)in a trust. We have life insurance, 401K, property etc all in our trust. The trust says what happens to the property and then we each have a will. The will is mainly what happens if the surivior of the trust dies and what happens to our minor children.
And if Appy were here, he would say "will you keep them until after college"
She can't have my husband, he's the only one who laughs at my jokes. Sometimes I have to give him a little poke to remind him how funny it was, but oh well, he is after all a guy. 'nuf said.
Oh gosh, SS. I made the most AMAZING thing last night.
I made homemade sweet and sour sauce with pineapple and mandrin oranges, used it to top chicken breasts and wrapped the whole mess up in fillo dough. IT WAS SO TOE-CURLIN' GOOD!
I vote for it......... twice.
And you're gonna love this, Friday I was testing an elbow noodle for doneness when boiling hot water shot out of the middle of it and burned the h-e-double-hockey-sticks out of my lip.
I don't wish that kind of pain on anyone. We do set our selves up sometimes though. I didn't laugh, I grimaced for you.
I swear on everything holy it's not a cold sore.
Double ouch.
I also swear I'm a menace in the kitchen.
If you were holding a kife, we should slowly back away? Quickly back away? Refrain from teasing you?
Ah - food. I'm hooked. I find I can't go 6 months without eating, or it just kills me.
Spiders and radiation signs! Goodness groceries...
OT: I just came across this old song on Youtube a bit ago. Takes me back. And forward. And now. Boy, and there are things I wish I had said 2 my own dad while he was alive.
...and things I still wish I could share with my wife. But I'm doing better.
"In the Living Years" -Mike and the Mechanics
"Every generation Blames the one before And all of their frustrations Come beating on your door
I know that I'm a prisoner To all my Father held so dear I know that I'm a hostage To all his hopes and fears I just wish I could have told him in the living years
Crumpled bits of paper Filled with imperfect thoughts Stilted conversations I'm afraid that's all we've got
You say you just don't see it He says it's perfect sense You just can't get agreement In this present tense We all talk a different language Talkin' in defense
Say it loud, say it clear You can listen as well as you hear It's too late when we die To admit we don't see eye to eye
So we open up a quarrel Between the present and the past We only sacrifice the future It's the bitterness that lasts
So Don't yield to the fortunes You sometimes see as fate It may have a new perspective On a different date And if you don't give up, and don't give in You may just be O.K.
Say it loud, say it clear You can listen as well as you hear It's too late when we die To admit we don't see eye to eye
I wasn't there that morning When my Father passed away I didn't get to tell him All the things I had to say
I think I caught his spirit Later that same year I'm sure I heard his echo In my baby's new born tears I just wish I could have told him in the living years
Say it loud, say it clear You can listen as well as you hear It's too late when we die To admit we don't see eye to eye
Say it loud, say it clear Say it loud Don't give up Don't give in And don't know what you can do next"
Weaver - sorry I missed your question. I was too grossed out by your spider bite. Yes, I had a great time with my family over the summer. Had a week in Ireland with my sister - Dublin is fun. England had terrible rain/floods this summer so that spoiled things occasionally but I love my mum and dad dearly and need to spend time with them. It's also good for my girls to reestablish relationships with their grandparents/cousins etc. England is where I belong really but very happy to get the girls through school in HK. It's safe, their dad has a good job, education system is exceptional. Pretty sure my husband would struggle to find employment back home with his health problems so we're 'stuck' here. But it's a good place to be.
>but what happens to the major ones......... like husbands?
Ya'll can keep 'em. One is enough for me (in a totally good way).
Weaver - I got bit by a recluse when pg with Z. It was under my arm, and they lanced the thing and packed it with cotton. It was super gross, and they couldn't stitch it closed, but had to wait till it grew closed on it's own.
No-no recently got bitten on his back. We caught it in time, but it still left a hole in his back that is slowly closing. It happened at the donor's house, and she didn't even tell us. I found it the morning after he came home, and it was already weeping.
Poor baby.
TT - I think HK would be a great place to be "stuck".
No babysitter for DS and H is beginning the cleaning of our backyard that he promised. So for my "gift" he is taking off from his Saturday job to start this task. I plan to make us a nice dinner which we will share with the kids.
Things are pretty good. No A related problems just lack of time and lack of communication. I will pick him up a card on my way home today.
oh we do humorous cards always, laughter is something we do share. Dinner, hmmm not sure yet. Probably pick up some fish for him and let him grill it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I love your family too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I ended up doing the grilling SS. Turned out ok considering HE always does it and I have very little practice. Nice dinner and dessert then he passed out on the couch from exhaustion from working all day.
I suppose doing the yard is a good gift, but I like romance on occasions like that.
These days we don't have to get a sitter, but sometimes the twins (now 14) need a referee. Anyway, it's easier to go than it was only a few years ago.
I recommend the two of you get out the calendar, and pick a weekend for a getaway. We find that if we put it down in writing, and it's there looking back at us, it is much easier to make it happen. As you know though, this is just a recommendation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Where would you like to go? What do you want to do?
BTW, I think your attitude is very good. The reason I continue to push is that this (Harleys's stuff) worked so well for us, and I am sure it would help you guys. Being happy with what you have is very good, but trying to make it better is good also.
I have a great deal of respect for how far you have come. I commend you for your effort. Effort like that is never wasted.
When my X was pregnant with DD19 I rewrote the lyrics to the Love Boat retitled as The Love Bloat and sang it to her in my best Bill Murray lounge singer schtick.
Faith - the trip to Texas went great. We drove about 5000 miles round trip, and the kids did wonderfully through the whole thing.
Some family members had not seen the kids in 4 years. That is too long, and I am wondering if it is time to move back to the motherland, so that my kids can know their relatives, and we can all be closer to old friends.
It was a LOT of fun. And a lot of driving. The next time I hope there to be another driver.
FAR, for a sec I thought you said it was time to return to the mothership, not motherland LOL! I am so glad you and the kids had a good time. That is a lot of miles to drive and be the only driver.
I saw a stumper bicker last night on my way home from work that said something about "amoeba music." What's that??
So I looked it up, and it's apparently an independent music chain of stores.
But I was reminded of a different piece of amoeba music from the late 1960s:
"Amoeba", sung 2 the 2ne of "Maria", -Mad Magazine
"Amoeba, they call this gray blob an amoeba. It only has one cell, and yet it does quite well, it's true. Amoeba! Just look at the crazy amoeba. Contentedly it sits, then suddenly it splits in two! Amoeba, it's dividing again into four cells. And these four cells will split into more cells. Amoeba, there's nothing quite like the amoeba!"
Another Mad Magazine song rewrite, that I was singing all evening after I'd tired of "Amoeba":
"These were just some of my tropical fish", sung 2 the 2ne of "These were just some of my favorite things"
"Black shiny Mollys and bright colored Guppies. Shy little Angels as gentle as puppies. Swiming and diving with scarcely a 'swish' These were just some of my tropical fish.
Then I bought Mantas that sting in the water. Deadly Piranhas that itch for a slaughter. Savage male Bettas that bite with a 'squish' Now I have many less tropical fish.
If you think that fish are peaceful That's an empty wish. Just dump them together and leave them alone And soon you will have... ...no fish!"
Used 2 be that "Licorice Pizza" was the best in So. Cal. But that was over 35 years ago.
The one in Costa Mesa was replaced by an independent store - can't remember their name - that was good for about 5 years, but then got pretty boring.
When we replaced items damaged by the fire at our house 6 years ago, we bought a new Sony 2rntable for the vinyls. I only hooked it up 2 our entertainment center a few months ago, because my son wanted 2 hear the old stuff (he's getting really in2 music, taking classes, private electric guitar lessons).
When we were kids, 2rntables would repeat when they hit a scratch or dirt in the groove (there's only one, you know). This one automatically moves along. (I should point out that my vinyl has a lot of miles on it, and so did the needles that played it - hence some scratches).
I've invested in a halfway nice hi-fi setup and recently upgraded the cartridge on my turntable. Listening to records is wicked fun.
I just took on a new guitar student. He's nine and lives on my block and his current goal is to play "Back In Black". His dad was sick the other day so we did his lesson at my house. He wanted to see my electric guitar setup. I hesitated, since I was nervous about even having the lesson at my house, much less taking the kid into the basement, but I couldn't resist.
He followed me down to the music room. I dimed my amp (that means turned it up all the way for you squares), told him to stick his fingers in his ears, and hit a G chord.
That kid could not wipe the smile off his face. That was the very definition of a $hi+-eating grin.
Took my children to The Great Escape here last weekend. We bought one Pokemon game cartridge <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
We bought one Diane Schurr CD that I have looked for for years. Diane Schurr I could find. This CD was a different story.
Then, we bought vinyl. Some of my friends are surprised I still have a turntable. I love my turntable. I love vinyl. So does my daughter. My son should be coming around. (His best friend's dad reviews music for a national publication but nothing is coming our way as there are 2 teenage boys in that family.)
Anyway, we bought a bizarre assortment:
Sticky Fingers by the Stones (d is jealous - I went to their last concert here) Purple Rain by Prince something by the Charlie Daniels Band and an album by Ray Stevens
Have you seen the USB turntables? You can copy your vinyl onto your computer.....<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Yeah, I have some favorite vinyl that's not ever been released on CD. And there is a significant difference in the sound. I think you get a better sense of the 'swell' of the music from vinyl.
SS - are you sure Kimmy didn't make your heat singe.
Ah - you are so clever.
I am reasonably sure.
All this music talk made me want some new music. (New old music.)
Gray, maybe you can help me with this. I am looking for light jazz. Stuff that can be played in the background, and that will stay in the background, and not get in the way of conversation. I know little to nothing about jazz, so I am asking. I have heard some that I really like, but have no ideas who it is. I know that isn't much to go on, but I have to start somewhere. Of course, anyone else is welcome to help, but I thought Gray might have some recommendations.
Chrisner-you sure we aren't related? After all, we both know Godot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Plus- I discovered Klemmer in college and also have the Ramsey Lewis live CD with "The In Crowd". Toe tapping stuff.
Sarah Vaughn is also very smooth, classic vocals-and Chet Baker's Live in Paris is also good for instrumental.
Dianna Krall is great for mellow vocals, especially some of the old standards, and Chris Botti has a great sound with the trumpet.
I do not know Christine Lavin. Does she make silly music?
Just a little puddle of muddy water Left there after the rain I got down on my knees I looked close I saw things I couldn't explain There was all those itty bitty Teeny weeny little tiny creatures Swimmin' and sloshin' about I put my ear down to that puddle I could hear one of them shout
We're goin' to the Amoeba Hop Everybody's gonna be there Got my eye on a cute paramecium You know the one with the wavy hair Rockin' and rollin' shakin' our cells and flappin' our flagella all over Well the good times don't never gonna stop When you go to the Amoeba Hop
(That's what I heard... I mean it! I mean it!)
Then I spied a shy protozoan Swingin' all by hisself He was lookin' for a partner to shake a leg with But everyone was dancin' with everybody else So he was so lonely till Mother Nature Showed him what to do He boogied down he did a little binary fission Split his-cellf in two (and now he's got a partner)
For the Amoeba Hop Everybody gonna be there My, oh my, of nucleoli Have you ever seen such a perfect pair? Rockin' and rollin' shakin' their cells Slappin' their cilia all over Well, the good times don't never gonna stop When you go to the Amoeba Hop Good times don't never gonna stop When you go to the Amoeba Hop
Some folks that one-celled animals Don't know how to swing People who say that... are wrong 'Cause I saw a band of algae Get up there and sing: "When the red red robin comes bob-bob-bobbin' along" But to them it's a monster song!
Oooh the puddle was jumpin' So was I I guess I lost my head In my excitement I splashed it dry Oh my god I thought they was dead! But no! They just come splashin' down Right here into my hand And sure enough I could still hear That swingin' algae band Sayin'
We're going to the Amoeba Hop, Everybody gonna be there, Got my eye on a cute paramecium, Look at the hair girls! Look at the hair! Rockin' and rollin' shakin' our cells Slappin' pseudopodia all over Well the good times don't never gonna stop When you go to the Amoeba Hop Good times don't never gonna stop When you go to the Amoeba Hop-hop hop bada Good times don't never gonna stop When you go to the Amoeba Hop!
Have you ever listened to Nelly McKay? Her lyrics are a hoot. Her style is somewhere between Jo Stafford and Eminem. Guys beware, she is a male bashing specialist but really worth a listen.
Though he does not drink, friend's husband has cirohssis of the liver....I can't spell it but God doesn't care. His condition is life threatening. Please pray for him to be healed and to live a normal life to see his daughters grow up. For his wife's strength. For skill for the doctors and nurses caring for him.
Yesterday, as I was driving the littles to school, Nonio asks, "Mommy, can I wear my costume when I get home?" I tell him, "Sure, you can play dress up."
OMGoodness!
You could hear the wheels grinding in his little head, and the derision that came from the back seat!
"MOM! Dress up is for GIRLS!"
As I'm trying to take that comment serious, I say, "Yes, but PRETEND is for everyone. When we get home, you can PRETEND to be Superman."
Ah-ha! Quiet contemplation ensues, the tumblers clink into place, then:
Got close to your old neck of the woods on our way home from Savannah, Kimmy. Stopped in Maggie Valley in the Gorge early Friday and ended up staying the night to listen to a Blue Grass band that was posted on a sign.
They had a little 14 yo fllor bass player with this big huge red bass that was twice his size. And he had on a bright red hat and shirt with farmer jeans. They also had a 17 yo fiddle player, and then the other two players were old guys. It was awssome, and I don't even really like blue grass.
Oh and one night we were on Tybee Island outside of Savannah on this cafe balcony overlooking the Atlantic Ocean and a Blue Grass band started playing. Had a really old guy playing the mandolin and it was the coolest thing. I am so used to being on the beach and listening to Jamaican music or something like that, I could hardly believe it.
Tonight or tomorrow will be the first installment in my campfire ghost story serious. LOL Savannah really believes it is totally haunted, and I was talking to this girl at that beach bar and she told me it is the honest to God truth and to believe them. They're the strangest bunch of people down there even stranger than in New Orleans, and I just can't wait to move there.
...but I just reminded myself of that surreal evening visit there after our DD's friends' wedding, with my W and I sitting and sharing ice cream across one of the tables there. I looked in2 her eyes a number of times, and saw... ...vacuum.
But I'm reading more off our ilouveulove resources page again of late, and cogitating more about what I can do 2 change the interplay between us in our sitch. Life is so mundane at the moment. Need 2 stir things up a tad.
Yes2rday, I was perusing the "spying" thread, and decided 2 do a people search for RM and his xW. You know how it takes a 2ple years or so for those searches 2 get up 2 date with peoples' addresses and stuff? Well, based on the "possible relatives" columns, I now know his new W's first name, and the former Mrs Meat's new H's name (and the fact that she got remarried 2).
Best part of it all was that it confirmed most of the things my W had been telling me over the past few years, such that I do believe she's withdrawing still (and that there is light at the end of the tunnel). RM most certainly has moved on. The only thing I still need at some point is assurance that NC is in place and will be maintained. She's told me it is, but she's told me that many times before.
Kimmy:
I'm so sorry 2 hear about your friend. My atheologistical thoughts are with everyone in pain or uncertainty.
DD19 and I went to Disneyland the day after Fruits and Nuts at Bob's Big Boy in July. We sat in a the last few songs of a Billy Hill set and had a great time. They were very funny and very talented.
Quote
and saw... ...vacuum.
Lord, do I remember that look. It was like her soul had been sucked out.
What is the URL on that link? I got a an "access forbidden" message when I tried to click on. This company I work for keeps finding new and improved ways to keep us from having any fun at all at work.
2long, are you working on the communication part? If I remember correctly that was one of your wifes complaints. Are you opening up to her more, in a verbal manner? Still kidding around with her as well, once in a while?
I heard on the John Tesh radio show last night while I was making a zucchini-chocolate cake, that the way to a woman's heart is through her ears, and I would have to agree. Just a passing thought.
Sure, I keep working on communication. Mostly, I get little or no response when I talk about US, but we can sometimes have interesting discussions about other people, or things we see on Dr Phil or something.
More and more, though, I'm finding I feel less susceptible 2 being hurt, much more even than before. And that allows me 2 be more vulnerable around my W, because I don't worry about "if I do this, what will she do 2 me" kinds of thoughts.
2long, one time you wrote about how marriage is supposed to make you married, it is not supposed to make you happy. You are bringing your happiness into your marriage, and making a positive thing for yuor family. I admire that.
I need to get out of here for awhile again. All these little kids growing up with this one and that one, "I just don't know who my daddy is" kind of thing, and it is making me ill.
I'll be back for the stories and music talk, but this girls heart needs to go bleed for awhile.
What the ****** is wrong with people? Are they so blinking blind that they can't see what they are doing to these children? I don't understand how people can be so stupid, so blind, so self-involved to not care what they are doing to the little children who rely on us to be the adults.
All the threads I have been reading on here involve a step-dad or step-dad to be, where the dad is not involved in the life of the child(ren) and the mom is moving on to daddy #3 or daddy #4, and it is so hard to read. It's breaking my heart for these kids.
My parents had their problems after their addictions got the the best of them, but you know I always had them. They never abandoned us. We never had to grow up with this new one or that new one, and I just think it would be so hard for the children. I can't imagine how awful that would be. It was hard enough on P when her dad got married, trying to get used to her new step-mom, but she always new her dad and I would never, ever leave her.
My heart cries for the children today, Kimmy. I'm sure you know of what I speak. You have a mom's heart, too.
Just remember people like Kimmy, and what they do for those children. That's what I try 2 keep in mind.
Also, definitely if you have 2, stay off those threads. I read so little of the range of stuff on here anymore that it's amazing when I realize how many unfamiliar names there are, all with hundreds or even thousands of posts 2 their names. Sometimes I wish I had the time 2 read them all, but of course that's not possible.
I've ac2ally been finding myself posting more of late, rather than less, because iloveulove is so quiet these days (though SC noted that we crossed the 1 million hit mark recently!). I even posted on loveshack again this week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I like my friends here. I'd miss them if they all left.
You are both right, it's about support and being a village. If we can help the stable parent, even if that is the step-parent, then we can help the children.
But for now, I am going to start my series of "ghost stories at grayclouds campfire"...because after the children, this is what counts: good friends, good music, good food, and good old fashioned story telling.
for the first installment, I am citing from "Slave Ghost Stories" ~~Tales of Hags, Hants, Ghosts, & Diamondback Rattlers
by Nancy Rhyme
Just as a side note, I am very interested in Black folklore, which is why I am starting with these stories. I don't know if I told you all this but when I was in 5th and 6th grade my dad was stationed outside of Sumpter, SC and as the last county to integrate the schools, I was bussed to an all black school. Yes, us whites were bussed to all black schools the same as black were bussed to all white schools. Anyway, they hold a special place in my heart...so here we go. There will be many more installments of the black's stories before I move onto the white folklore. Enjoy!
Ghosts Are Good Company
I'm Solbert Butler, age of eighty-two. Back in slavery time, I lived on old Massa Ben Bostick's place in Hampton County, South Carolina. The plantations been divided since them days, 'tween Ben Bostick, Iva bostick, Joe Bostick, Luther Bostick, Eddie Bostick, and Jennie Jo Bostick.
I couldn't number the plantations old Massa Ben Bostick owned. He was a millinery. The house the family lived in they called the Paradise Houe. No one went to that house but only the rich. Oh, it was paradise at Christmas.
Old Massa was good to us. And he whipped us good too! Tied some to the fence post and whipped them. The overseer, Mr. Aldridge, was a mean man. the field hands got licked till the blood came out. then red pepper and salt was rubbed on the back. My uncle was so whipped he went into the woods and lived there for many months. Had to learn the independent life.
Oh, my God! Can you say them as done such as Mr. Aldridge ain't going to their reward? Oh my God no! That man can't have no rest. He did the field hands so mean, finally old Massa heard about it. And when he heard about it, he discharged him.
Massa took me as a pet. Had a little bed right by his own and took care of me. Every morning, a house servant brought in his tray, and Massa fed me from it. Massa took me in the carriage with him. H kept two fine horses just for the carriage.
Ghosts? I'm used to them. I see them all the time. Good comppany! They come in my house. Sometime I walk along at night and see them. The big house was full of them. White folks see them too. That is, some white folks. One day I saw a white man walking to work up at the big house and I told him he ought to see the ghosts. The white man turned and ran away.
They is a sight! They play. They dance 'round and 'round. They're happy all right. But they devil you too. They don't scare me. They talk to me. If I meet them in the road, they pass the time of day with me.
"morning, Solbert. How you feeling?" they say. "just so-so" "Uh-huh." They all look alike. One ghost pushed me over in the ditch. "What you do that for?" I said. "That ain't nothing,"he said.
I talk to them just the same as if they was somebody. Some folks outgrow them. But not me. You have to be born wrapped in the caul to see them. But if you ain't, you can't see them.
UPDATE! He was not old enough. Had a 19 or 20 year old daughter and a 12 year old daughter. The oldest one has been overseas since August. When she left, her dad was healthy. Today, another friend had to call her and tell her that her dad had just died.
Okay, another ghost story from the interview book I have...for all you campers.
The Ghost Stole My Overcoat
My name is George Brown. Vinergar Hill is my home, on Edisto Island, SC. I've encountered all kinds of ghosts in my life, but there was one played a mean trick on me. It happened like this:
I attended a meeting one night at Old House. We had a nice time. Deacon August Mannery held forth and we all gave testimony. I can't say why hard luck tracks me! Maybe I ain't come out plain with my testimony. Anyhow, five minutes after I left Jonas Bright at the crossroads, a ghost butted me.
It was sharp cold and I had on my brand new overcoat my wife's cousin's child gave me. I knew full well that overcoat was going to hold me back. I started to run like crazy, but there was too much weight 'cross my shoulder. The ghost closed in on me. I jumped off the road and dodged bhind a toothache tree. The ghost followed. I broke loose and made for Bear Hog Bottom, where the tall cypress trees grow. I figured I could hide somewhere in that swamp, 'cause ghosts don't like to cross water. Big mistake! The mud was awful deep, and I bogged down.
The ghost wasn't far behind. No time to tarry. I loosened my shoe and pulled one foot out, then the other. I got back on the road again. Thank the Lord.
I looked back and saw a big white thing, bigger than a cow, coming up fast. That thing could run! I knew if he could beat me, he was good all right, 'cause everybody knew I could run! I sped up. My tongue was hanging out till it 'most touched the ground. The ghost slipped up and grabbed me from the back, and I knew I was lost then sure enough.
But I was very nimble, so I slipped out of my overcoat right quick adn jumped. I left the ghost holding that overcoat and got away from that place. I done got my second wind and I kept on running to Steamboat Landing Road and turned in at my brother's house.
I never saw my brand new overcoat again. I swear, I don't know what a ghost would want with an overcoat, 'cause they don't wear no clothes. Anyhow, he got it and he kept it. I ain't going to follow no ghost to ****** for no overcoat. No, sir.
That just shows you how ghosts stand. They're so plaguish like. Torment the living spirit our of a man. That was the first ghost I ever met that had the thieving habit.
I have to make a flour baby this weekend. Son has to carry it around next week as a project for school. I guess I can tell him it's not a 5 pound doll...it's a 5 pound action figure.
When this one arrived a few days ago DD19 declared, “He is mine! I will name him Pinocchio and he will become a real boy!”
Oh how funny. Your DD is a girl after my own heart, Chrisner.
I can't however, for the life of me, understand why a grown man wants to have little fake man holding gun. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> J/K
Cinderella, why can't you just tell him it's a baby? Is the project about caring for babies? Nurturing? I think it's good for little boys to learn how to love and care for babies, in the same way that girls do by playing with their dolls. Does he have little stuffed animals that he likes to hug and cuddle?
UPDATE! He was not old enough. Had a 19 or 20 year old daughter and a 12 year old daughter. The oldest one has been overseas since August. When she left, her dad was healthy. Today, another friend had to call her and tell her that her dad had just died.
Please pray for his family.
My gosh...
...I'm sure this is just coincidence, but I just learned this weekend that a well-respected individual in my "interest community" that I knew of but didn't know personally, also passed away on Thursday. He was only 50.
(correction: It was reported Thursday, but he passed away the week before. Sorry, folks)
I often have a hard time knowing what to say when these things happen. Most often there is not much a person (meaning me,) can do except pray for those affected.
Wishing everyone well.
2long, thanks again for coming by, it is always good to see you. I hope you got a little emotional rest on the trip, I doubt if you were able to catch up on your sleep though.
My Fair Lady, good choice SS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
No dates, nada recently. He has over committed himself to everyone but me of late. I got a sincere apology but that doesn't make up for the lost time. sigh.......
No dates, nada recently. He has over committed himself to everyone but me of late. I got a sincere apology but that doesn't make up for the lost time. sigh.......
Weaver, we do call it a baby....Her name is Chloe.
Cats are named Cookie and Calla Dog is named Zoe Baby is named Chloe....does that look strange to anyone....
Anyway, we didn't have any bags of flour and I needed to go to the grocery store to get one until I found a bag of corn meal.....so, the baby got a middle name. She is
TT! Thanks for the hug, you are often on mind as well.
I know he loves me, I know he wants to be here, I know he is no longer in an A and continues to defog but the effort has never really been there. KWIM?
Weaver, fill me in on the cat....Coco Channel or Coco Chanel. I assume it is female. Spayed? Color? Idiosyncracies?
You are right, see I can't even spell her name.
She is brindel or perhaps calico, but more of a brindel. She is five years old and very tiny. She was rescued from a garbage bin, almost dead when I got her from the no-kill shelter. Terribly sick with a respiratory infection. She is a mama's girl, a talker (only her voice is skeaky like a mouse) She has a problem of when I go out of town for a few days of peeing in the bathroom. And yes that is a real problem. She is scared of birds. If I don't get up when the alarm goes off she bats me across the face with her paw. Then she gets right down next to my face and gives me eskimo kisses. I don't know Cinders... Well she is declawed and spayed.
My daughter wants to know where she is now and why she can't move......you know how they have to have all the details.....
We have one cat adopted from the Humane Society, one cat from a vet where they sometimes take unwanted litters and find them homes - for lots of money but that includes retail vet fees, and one dog from a rescue group which rescued her from a negligent home then adopted her out to a man who let her run off then took her away from him after going to find her and then interviewed me by phone several times before deciding we sounded perfect for her.
[color:"purple"]Meanwhile, everyone please say special prayers for Linda, Courtney, and Sarah Beth tomorrow.....I guess you can even pray for Jim, Larry's brother. Jim is middle aged and has lost both his parents, all his granparents, his sister, and his brother. So, he may be all alone in this world. Tomorrow will be the one week mark from Larry's death.[/color]
I wasn't going to sign into this joint today, but I have to answer your daughters' question.
To Cinderellas darling daughter,
I can't take Coco with us because I have a little 13 year old daughter of my own, who will be coming to live with me next summer (she lives with her dad right now for the school year) and we will be in a new city where we won't know anyone. And since she is an only child, and I have to work full time I had to consider what to do with her in the daytime while I am at work.
I decided that renting a house and then leaving her alone all day would be a very bad idea. So we decided that it would be best to rent an apartment in a guarded, high security apartment complex. One with a pool and work out room. I am hoping that there will be babysitting opportunities there for her, as well as perhaps odd jobs such as cleaning and gardening.
Anyway, to make a long story short, these types of places don't allow pets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I have to also tell you that my daughter who we call "P" here, used to sit with me by the computer and read here at the campfire too.
Then she got bored with it, and bored with me being on the computer all the time. I can't hear my name being called apparently, when I am reading here, so one day she got so frustrated at me not hearing her that she came up and pushed me out of my chair. After that we got a timer, and that solved our problem, for a little while. Until she got older and wanted to be on the computer herself. And then I got frustrated because she was always on the computer.
Then I saw her talking to someone she didn't know, which is forbidden for her unless her dad or I are with her, until she becomes an adult, so I got rid of the computer.
Now I am only here when I am at work. And if she needs to use the computer, we go to the library together, or she uses her dad's laptop while he can monitor her usage.
Hows that for all the details, and then some, Cinders?
I don't know....I don't know....I already have 2 cats and a dog. One of my cats is already sort of neurotic. And someone - one of the furry creatures - has taken a big liking to 'facilitating' on my Chinese rug and they've ruined the hardwood floor underneath.
This doesn't sound promising.
A non-neurotic cat might be more do-able.
You know, though, I'm still disappointed that I didn't get Tuck's kitten from Hong Kong. THAT would have been a good story.
Good! I was hoping you would decide that was a better plan. Just think of the trauma you will spare her. After all, I do already have my own neurotic feline.
I half-watched "The Office" tonight (a very good show I rarely catch) while I was making dinner. A woman I forget her name sends Dwight to feed her cat and give it insulin and he kills the animal instead.
I have been given this task before myself. Killing the cat would have been easier than giving her the shot.
I often have a hard time knowing what to say when these things happen. Most often there is not much a person (meaning me,) can do except pray for those affected.
SS
SS - I attended a pastor's conference this week. We have had several pastors experience great loss in their families this year. They have lost sons, grandchildren, wives, or died themselves. The pastor whose son was lost to suicide spoke. He said that one of the most meaningful things was when an associate pastor went to their house later the day of the death, and just sat and held their hand. Did not say a word. Just was there.
That dovetails with critical incident stress management training - in most cases not much needs to be said. Just be there and allow those with loss to talk, and cry and grieve.
I am not a pastor. It is all I can do to keep myself out of trouble for things I say at events like this - but I have learned to keep my mouth shut.
I have some Tenacious D on my mp3 player - the same player I use to play walk in music at church. I am typically careful to make sure that I have it on album repeat - but i have found myself playing some Donovan Frankereiter directly after the David Crowder songs. But it is a surfer church, so they do not mind....
I would not want to get the edited Nelly cd. I will be careful not to play it for DD6 and DS8.
My trip to Texas has pulled on my heartstrings. My kids had not seen some family and friends for 4 years. I do not like that. Plus - I think my income to expense ratio would be better in Texas than CA.
BUT - sitting on a surfboard watching the sun set into the Pacific is pretty cool......
BUT - sitting on a surfboard watching the sun set into the Pacific is pretty cool......
I will think about that during a blizzard in Denver sometime this winter.
Ohhhhh....I just found out last night that Wayzilla took my U2 Rattle and Hum CD with her. It took me months to find it and I don't remember her ever listening to it. It has that live version of "Still Haven't Found" with the Harlem church choir. That song is worth the whole CD.
Yea - you can surf all year here. The waves are kinda flat in the summer, and in the middle of the winter, but I am a novice, so smaller waves are better for me.
I moved from East Texas 4 years ago. I knew I needed to surf, and never jumped on a board till this spring. It is very neat being in the water. You let all other worries go away, and just look for the next best wave. Then you and maybe 50 other surfers watch the sunset. (and miss a wave or two while distracted)
come out and give it a try. Let me know when you are coming - I will borrow a board for you.
There's no telling when I will be able to go anywhere. Work is too, too, too whatever to be willing to let me off for anything - they wouldn't even let me go to a funeral this past week - a funeral for someone I've known for 20 years.
Worship service is finished and going through the phone lines/satellites as we speak. I don't know if I will live long enough to see it finished. So tired I can't see straight.
We are going on a picnic. We'll spend that time in a new park, and we'll talk a lot. It isn't crowded yet.
I think we'll do some geo caching too. W wants to learn how to use her new GPS. (Yes, it really is hers, and yes, she wants to use it.)
After we get our couple time, we'll go by and visit my parents, and my aunt and Uncle for a little while. They live in the same neighbourhood - or nearly so.
IN three weeks we get away for a three day weekend. I think we'll spend part of it doing some early Christmas shopping. I hate to leave it until the last minute.
Spent last weekend alone and was so depressed and lonely, I finally went out and spent a small fortune on new CD's, plants, and candles. I mean just because living in that little house is temporary doesn't mean I can't at least find some joy there.
So I picked up seven new CD's, and OMG two of them just blew me away. Gray, I was getting so bored with every single thing I listened to that I about jumped for joy to hear something that rocked my world again.
Chris Botti's "Italia"...not normally into Botti, but I got some Miles Davis after you mentioned him, and made themistake of getting one that had too much "big band sound" in it for me...but this Botti CD is sooooo nice.
Andrea Bocelli's "Andrea"...my best Bocelli CD to date. Holy eyes of mackeral...it nearly sets my soul on fire, it is that beautiful.
Josh Groban...can't remember the name, a couple of songs were in Bocelli's league and I absolutely love his voice.
Beathovin, five of his symphonies...so so. I am still not able to get into classical, but keep trying. Going to try some of the Sonata's next.
Andrew Rieu, "On the Blue Danube" Too much classical or orchestra or something. But I'm hoping it'll grow on me.
Ray Charles, a 3 CD set. Okay.
BB King, greatest hits. Again, okay.
I don't normally like blues ...LOVE Johnny Lang, though. He seems kind of progressive jazzy blues.
And finally, have been looking for the new Kenny Wayne Shephard CD, mostly because of where he is from and because there is a DVD included where he interviews and plays with a lot of the old backroad musicians from south LA. Haven't seen him in concert yet but everyone tells me he is AWESOME.
So there is my "weaver grocks" post. You reading 2long? Seriously check out the new Andrea Bocelli CD. I bet if you get that as a gift for your wife, she'll be ablaze with amore. You can't possibly help but feel romantic listening to that. I can't read or write a word of Italian, but I can sing along to almost every song on the first two CD's I bought, that's how much I love them. LOL
Oh, and I got the gift set of Luciano Pavorati. We like to play a lot of opera at Christmas time (turned way down low), so am saving that one.
I hope everyone keeps giving their latest music reviews, it's really cool to read what you all are listening to.
one of those where I inexplicably log in as Q rather than 2, when I think I'm going to go away for a while...
weaver, you and JL were too kind to bb on plan a/b. And I'm not just saying that because he asked me to leave him alone. He's on MB and he's not following the plans at all. That's fine if that's what he wants to do (learn the HARD way), but it sure won't get him what he thinks he wants anytime soon.
Some people just need to learn their lessons the hard way, though...
...what am I saying? I'm still learning after almost 6 years of this stuff.
I've posted on a few other threads (as 2) that caught my interest, but I'm feeling pretty ineffective these days.
Speaking of CDs, I think I said somewhere that I bought my W a couple of Annie Lennox CDs for her birthday last week. We've been so busy, we haven't had a chance to listen to them! And she loves Annie Lennox. Great singing voice. I think she's almost as good as Anneli Drecker. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
weaver, you and JL were too kind to bb on plan a/b. And I'm not just saying that because he asked me to leave him alone. He's on MB and he's not following the plans at all. That's fine if that's what he wants to do (learn the HARD way), but it sure won't get him what he thinks he wants anytime soon
Well I had a lot of other things to say, but nothing would matter now, except damage control for him.
You cannot win a WW's heart by losing her and your own self-respect. Sleeping with his wife for 2 wks during her brief, illicit (dishonest) reprieve from her OM, in effect killed all his chances. You (I and everyone else) tried to tell him that but because of his own lack of belief in himself and his worth, he would not listen.
I almost didn't post to him because of one, his laziness, his attachement and addiction, and his lack of faith...also his rudeness...but then I read his post and how cocky and sure he is that he can do a Plan B now, (after getting his fix, which as we know is shallow and will only pull him deeper into depression and dispair)...but I think he will crash hard. I fear for his emotional state.
The guys on here don't seem to understand, that by throwing all their self-respect out the window and in effect begging for their wife, they are diminishing their chances in huge proportion.
Plus, her OM wasn't meeting all her needs...a mistake to take up his slack, IMO.
People who give up their values to try and comfort their broken egos, play a losing game.
The broken man with a bruised ego trying to appease his WW, and lapping up any crumbs like a lap dog, is not valuing his marriage, his wife, his family...he is simply trying to unbruise his frail and fractured ego.
Plus, he is unwilling to work any plan "whatever happens happens" or something to that effect.
I didn't feel like throwing it in his face, now. He'll know soon enough.
God, I hope he doesn't read this. Is this wrong to discuss it here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
2long, I have never seen you give advice that was not on the mark. You were just hitting those places deep inside him that were already telling him the same, but he was trying to bury them. Then you come along and keep pulling the wool off. You wre a threat to the wool covering. That was obvious to me.
I haven't heard any Annie Lennox in years. I hope all is well with you.
I think Leonard Cohen discusses this nicely in "I'm Your Man" -
Quote
Ah, the moon's too bright The chain's too tight The beast won't go to sleep I've been running through these promises to you That I made and I could not keep Ah but a man never got a woman back Not by begging on his knees Or I'd crawl to you baby And I'd fall at your feet And I'd howl at your beauty Like a dog in heat And I'd claw at your heart And I'd tear at your sheet I'd say please, please I'm your man
do you remember vnus/mars? Remember how he kept sleeping with his WW and she would leave and then go to her OM's and do the same?
Vnus had lived a life outside of any real value system or integrity for so long (affairs, affair marriage) that he didn't know what was appropriate any longer.
We could see that by doing this he was destroying his chances...it was crystal clear to us, but we couldn't get it across to him.
And now he is divorced.
It happens over, and over, and over, and over on here when a man doesn't stand up and lead. Men have got to be strong in their WW's eyes. They have got to be able to stand up and say NO, this is not okay and I am not your little lap dog.
I don't know why they never listen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
And, it's been my observation and my experience that when a WW is fence sitting (not really because in her head she has already picked the OM, she is just using the H at this point), and sleeping with both, but lying to the OM about it while discussing it with the H...she will ultimately end up with the man she feels she has to lie to. At least until that ends to.
A woman will go to the man she feels enough fear of losing that she has to lie to him, not to the one who excepts in the broad daylight her disgusting behavior.
He is in effect saying to her, I know you are a two-timing, lying, little ho...not only are you in an affair but now you are sleeping with me behind your oh so wonderful OM's back...he is saying, I value myself so little that I will do whatever it takes to spend a few lustful minutes in your despicable company.
You said that very well, weaver. I wish he WOULD read that, but he hasn't left his own thread yet. I doubt he ever will.
I realize now, looking back, that I helped prolong the hurt and slow the healing by having "makeup SF" and "gratuitous SF" (my W called it that, once) for so long after d-day. The difficulty is that I can understand bb's pathetic state, because I was pathetic, too. I wanted to do anything that I thought might keep us together, even if it did more long term damage than good.
I really needed to stop that needy stuff entirely, even though it's meant that I don't get many of my "top needs" met at all for extended periods of time. But I've learned a lot about myself in the process. I realize that if something terrible were to happen to my spouse such that she was disfigured or paralyzed or any one of a number of awful things were to happen that we sometimes ask ourselves about here (but really? probably never think seriously about), I would still care for her. Because it isn't her physical person that ever really drew us together in the first place (being able to separate physical from spiritual now, I can see that I did so 33 years ago as well, just never "needed" to put my finger on it at the time). Problem is that, with the LTA, this realization (on the part of both of us) has been buried in turmoil for so long that we forgot it.
I can't even remember the last time we had SF - probably 4 or 5 months ago - but I don't fret over it because I'm better able to focus on the things we are doing together and that can't be used as "excuses" to not recover from the A.
Things are progressing very slowly, still. But they are progressing.
Even though we fully expect my idiot SIL to sue us again. But she and her lawyer fit despair dot com's definition of Stupidity to a tee:
"Winners never quit, quitters never win, but those who never win AND never quit are idiots."
It's not the same thing, because your wife was not discussing her illicit affair and seeing you behind the OM's back. It is not at all the same thing.
You may have been acting from fear in certain ways, but you and your wife were not involved in a "love" triangle (with your full knowledge and consent, anyway this is one of the big differences) and she did not leave you and your children to go shack up.
Do you see the difference? It's important.
Your "make up" or "gratuitous" SF helped to bring you back together in an intimate fashion, whether it was needy or not. "make up" SF is very important in marriages.
If we are being bluntedly honest here, I would say that the only thing I could see you doing wrong is not being radically honest. For some reason you want everything to be her idea, for example, taking RM's picture down. And not approaching her for SF... because she said in the past that was all you wanted her for. (which btw is VERY common for women to feel like. I'll get to this more in a second).
You are, in my opinion, by not approaching her for SF, one: being dishonest because you do desire this with her, two: allowing her to continue her distance from you.
Also, you say that you have no fear nowadays and can say and act without fear of her rolling her eyes, or whatever, but you are not asking for what you want. You still aren't shaking things up. Women need a man to be clear, to be confidant and to be manly. You have a GREAT sense of humor, and you LOVE her...I say use those to your advantage to the nth degree.
Do you know what her top five needs are? Are you meeting them now?
She won't meet yours, if you are not meeting hers.
Remember a way to a women's heart is through her ears.
Back to the SF thing. Men and women are so completely, incredibly different in this dept. I had no idea of the depth of this difference until I read "Venus and Mars in the Bedroom". Now I normally can't stand to read John Gray, because he writes like he is talking to three year olds...but this book almost floored me in it's truth. And I didn't even know any of these differences...but once read, I just kept thinking "OMG, that is soooo true". And it is this huge difference that causes women to think "SF is all you want me for" and for men to come off that way to a woman. They just don't understand us and we don't understand them.
I suggest you read it to get a handle on her female mind in this dept....
If GB read it...eye yiyi...well he'd be Don Juan cubed. But he won't. I'm glad I did though, it helps me to understand myself a little bit, and I have a better idea of how not to offend his male ego.
Doing things together and growing together spiritually is really neat though, and a big plus.
You're right, it's not the same thing. And I'd like to think that if my W had run off to Mexico, or any other location, with RM, that I would have moved onto other and better things long before now.
The difference is pretty much as you describe, except for the simple truth that her affections were still very, very much divided for a long time after d-day, even though she only saw him once, and with my son, after d-day.
As far as radical honesty is concerned, I believe that I have been when I've had the opportunity in the last couple of years. Usually, rather than evoke a conversation, it causes further withdrawal. It is so hard to foster ANY kind of communication when I get NOTHING in response. Not a word. That kind of thing still happens, particularly if I'm being honest about how I feel about our relationship, or even relationships in general.
Not every time, though, and I try to foster conversations when I can when we DO have RH moments. Usually, it's something she brings up. She's more reluctant to have a convo about something I bring up.
Fortunately, lately I haven't had to do much to bring something I'm feeling to her attention - because she's starting to notice. For example, at least two recent DJs of hers, that were rather insulting to me: I didn't "react" because I knew it would just escalate things. I changed the subject, or stopped participating in the discussion. Both of these times, she went out of her way to show me she felt bad about the direction she'd taken. She did so by being snuggly (which is rare for her of late), but not saying anything. But I will take whatever she can give. For most men, it would be far from enough, though.
Oh, and this morning, she actually thanked me out loud for something I helped her with for a book she's coauthoring about archaeology. I'm good with graphics, image processing, and map making. I've been helping her all along, but I don't remember being thanked like that for a very long time.
I do want her to take RM's picture down of her own choice. And I do take responsibility for not asking her yet. But you should see us these days. We are working so hard on our apartment, getting it ready to rent so it can help us offset some of the payments on the other house, and dealing with the SIL's lawsuit and her mom not talking to us for over a year, that we're just whacked out tired at the end of the day. Things are less fragile between us as a couple than they have been for a long time, but they're still strained a bit.
Anyway, based on the limited communication we do have still, I am somewhat concerned that she may comply with a request to take the picture down, but not be forthcoming as to what other mementos she has of him that I'm not aware of. And frankly, I don't want her to just take it down, I want her to give it to me so that I can destroy it in front of her.
As for approaching her for SF, well, I don't because I'm not interested. Of the past, say, 3 times we've had SF, she's initiated two of them, and I the third (the most recent). I don't consider it "withholding" from her. We're just too busy right now. I do realize that it allows the distance between us to grow, but it really is mutual. If I had to put a finger on it, though, I would actually say that she's been slowly taking more of an interest in me as her partner because I've withdrawn from her expectations or interpretations of how I am with SF. The distance does grow, though. And the only real benefit for me to that is that if we separate, it won't hurt me as much as it would have. I don't know if I've explained myself well.
Do I know what her top needs are? Not really. I could guess, I suppose, but what good does that do either one of us if I'm wrong? I could ask her, I suppose. And maybe soon I will (I've actually thought recently of filling out the ENQs and see what she thinks of my answers). I remember asking her if she would fill them out with me, back in early 2002, and she wasn't interested at all. And for so long after that, even to the present to some hard to define degree, everything R related comes across as educating her, and is ignored. The difference nowadays is that it doesn't bother me when she ignores me. But I don't badger her either. Someday she'll want to talk about R stuff. Sometimes she does, and we do, but it's never in the first person. I do recognize the value of those conversations, though.
Bottom line, she couldn't hear me if she didn't want to. And most of the past 17 years, I don't feel like she's wanted to. Recently, I've noticed that's starting to change. And it may be due to the way I'm handling her sister and her lawsuits. I'm being very tough-lovey on her hiney (except I really don't like her). My position is that she gains nothing by us giving into her ridiculous demands.
Oh, as for friend whose husband died after 3 week illness, her oldest daughter left yesterday to go back to Zambia. So, continue to keep them in your prayers.
(and that supervisor who wouldn't let me take a couple of hours off to go the funeral took 5 days, not 3, for a vacation. Can you say, "I've lost a lot of respect for him"?)
I just want to say something briefly and then let you move on to other things.
I know the reason we are here marriage building is so that we can have a great marriage. What that looks like to some may be different for others.
I know there are the days that things are less than perfect and the lack seems greater than the good in your marriage (probably few and far between, but we only get to see the complaints on here for the most part), but it seems to me like you have a pretty good marriage and a very blessed life. You have healthy children, you have been fortunate enough to still be with the same woman who bore your children and who you entered adulthood with, you both have interesting careers, you do lots of things together, you are financially better off than probably 97% of the rest of the world....
It is unfortunate that the SIL would let greed guide her. No wonder your W is not as spiritual as she could be, her family seems to be grossly lacking in that dept.
I don't know, I'd say that you have a good thing going. Some may disagree with me, but their opinions are based on what you say, the complaints about your marriage and not all the positives.
Perhaps it's time to put all the pain and disappointment of the affair behind you and live in the moment. Perhaps it's time to let her know that the biggest gift she can give your marriage is to turn all momento's of RM over to you. It'd be a nice Xmas gift, wouldn't it? Of course you seem to be handling it all just fine.
It's nice to read that things seem to be turning around and she is starting to move towards you again.
33 years together is worth so much. I have been in lots of serious R's, 2long, too many. And believe me, it's not about finding the right partner, or finding a partner that fulfills the E/N's, it's about taking what you have, with the person you married and creating a lifetime of goods and bads and everything in between. You have no idea the importance of the legacy you are giving your children and your grandchildren. In my book, this is just as, if not more important than...well fill in the blank, it doesn't matter what you put in the blank, it's all the same.
On Golden Pond is one of my all time favorite movies, and you have a chance at having what they had at the end of their lives...50, 60 years together...a whole liftime of memories...I can't imagine any possibility of a love greater than that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And seriously, I can't imagine any regrets in that either.
edited to add:
I had to come back and add a disclaimer...
I can say this you, because you have the ability to find happiness...it's your spirituality or your life view...and not everyone does. You can bring happiness from within and turn the bad into good, the whole point of love and marriage. Not everyone can. Some people have to divorce because of abuse, or mental illness of their spouse, or serial cheating, because they can no longer find the light, but that is not the case with you.
It is hard 2 convey all that goes on in our relationship on an online message board. And even if I do list the good qualities about my W and our R, it's only human na2re 2 dwell on the negatives. Oh well.
We got a copy of the letter our lawyer sent my SIL's lawyer, in the mail yes2rday. So, the defecation is in the ventilation. I fully expect she'll sue us again, but if she does we'll toss the agreement we came up with in January and she won't get anything from us unless she wins the suit, and that isn't bloody likely. Plus, we may decide 2 counter file, but that might drag this nonsense on a lot longer. She'd be smart 2 take the settlement and go away, but she's 2 vindictive 2 think of that. And her lawyer is 2 s2pid 2 advise her.
The good news is that she's out of that house, it's sold, and we've fulfilled our capital gains tax responsibilities.
Mr. 2 long - a question for you (if you do not mind me continuing to pick your brain)(sounds like a weird meal)
A friend of mine jogs each morning in east texas, b4 the sun rises. She sees shooting stars frequently, but today and again tonight she saw one that had a blue and green tail, which was longer than usual, and longer lasting than usual. I thought it might be parts from the russian rocket, but it seems like maybe not, at this point.
Any idea why the meteors are differently colored today?
Well, I'm not the most knowledgeable about meteors, but I do know that they can show different colors, depending on their composition. Like the Perseids tend to be yellowish. I've seen those, and some other colors as well. The reason your friend sees them early in the morning is that the morning side of the Earth is facing in2 the planet's direction of motion around the sun, so it's running in2 more stuff on that side (like bugs on a windshield), whereas meteors in the evening have 2 overtake the Earth, so there are less of them (like there are less bugs on your rear window).
Bright meteors are fireballs or bolides (I think these are exploding fireballs, but I'd better look that up), and can often leave trains lasting several seconds. Ever see one light up the landscape like lightning? That's pretty neat.
Sometime in the early 1980's, I was at our astronomy club's observing site for a star party up by Wrightwood (which we renamed "Lightwood" due 2 the increasing light pollution from LA). I was looking down at something, when we all heard someone yelling "looky!" Well, as you know, meteors move pretty fast, so I wasn't expecting 2 see anything by the time I'd looked up and 2rnd around, but there it was - a slow moving meteor trailing magenta chunks and flames behind it. I'd never seen anything like it before. It 2k about 45 seconds 2 get across the sky and disappear over the horizon.
2rned out 2 be a Soviet spy satellite that re-entered the atmosphere and crashed in southern Canada. 42nately, the RTGs were still intact when it crashed. But the Canadians were still not particularly happy about it.
It was one of the coolest things I've ever seen in the night sky, and it was "fake"!
If you ever saw the videos of Columbia breaking up, you'll know what it looked like. 42nately, no lives were lost in the Soviet satellite crash. I cried when I saw the Shuttle videos.
2 long -- thanks for the info. I have a couple of "meteor" stories, too.
Quote
Bright meteors are fireballs or bolides (I think these are exploding fireballs, but I'd better look that up), and can often leave trains lasting several seconds. Ever see one light up the landscape like lightning? That's pretty neat.
I was on a flight into Vera Cruz, Mexico one night around 10pm. I was awake, and noticed outside that it looked like the sky was lighting up. I looked out the window on the opposite side - expecting to see clouds with lightning. Instead, I saw a red glowing rock on it's way to the gulf of Mexico. It looked like it was about the same altitude as our vehicle, and I guess it was about eight miles away from us. It was totally wicked. It looked just like the simulations of meteors crashing to earth that you see in movies. My buddy on that side saw the flashes of light (yes - it did light up all of the clouds and our aircraft), but did not look out in time to see the meteor. That was pretty cool. How cool would it be to leave this earth by getting hit by a rock falling from the sky while flying in a plane?!?!?!
Quote
If you ever saw the videos of Columbia breaking up, you'll know what it looked like. 42nately, no lives were lost in the Soviet satellite crash. I cried when I saw the Shuttle videos. -ol' 2long
About 4.5 years ago we lived in Dallas. One morning I took my kids out because the shuttle was gonna fly by, and I had heard stories of seeing the orange plasma trail, and how it would linger for several minutes sometimes. I had calculated exactly the path it would follow through the sky.
My oldest daughter made visual first. She said "daddy - there it is. It looks like glitter". I thought that i had heard that tiles sometimes come off, and figured that is what she saw.
As it passed by, it kept shedding glitter. Then it broke into two vapor trails, then five, then seven. My wife said "oh my...." and tried to move the kids back inside. My friends and family in East Texas talk about the boom they heard - it rattled their dishes in the cupboards. One friend thinks her son found a piece in their field.
I ran back in to see what the nasa webcast was saying. It was black, and quiet. It was a full ten minutes later that CNN started reporting that the shuttle was running late - that they were expecting it to show up any minute now.
Twas a sad day.
I think both of my brothers saw that Russian satellite, too.
I tried again this morning, but it's still mostly cloudy, and I couldn't find it in the tiny clear spots. Maybe because the clear spots were in the wrong place in the sky?
Yes, 2long, you need to tell us where to look. We are not, at least some of us are not, astronomickers, you know.
I have some cool slave ghost stories from the 1800's, and the night "the sky fell"... I'm going to try and post them when I remember to bring my book. These stories are so interesting because it's like looking into the minds and cultures of a time that is literally mind blowing. And it was such a short time ago in years. It's so interesting to me. And yes, I see the tragedy and the injustice, but also the beauty in the minds and customs of these people who were forced into slavery. I am fascinated and humbled by their resiliancy, and defiance, if even only in the privacy of their minds (at that time).
"There is that indescribable freshness and unconsciousness about an illiterate person that humbles and mocks the power of the noblest expressive genius. Walt Whitman
2long, please say hi to Appy for me, as well. Tell him his posts are dearly missed, by me. Also, his great mind and especially his awe and wonder of this universe. (I'll never forget his post on being a scientist, as well as a man of God.)
SS, Faith & TT,
I am so very happy to tell you that that kid of mine got straight A's at her new school....AND she was voted student of the month by the teachers. Can you believe it? Last year she was flunking and getting expelled for fighting and this year she is poster child.
But what really made us proud were the comments by the teachers when her dad went to her conferences. Of course she has always been a very, very maternal and loving human being, it is nice to hear once again. Well even last year all her teachers wrote right next to her big fat "D" lol, that she was a pleasure to have in class.
One said she has such an outlook and attitude that all the other kids look up to her.
That she always makes a point to be nice and engage in conversation the kids who no one seems to say hi to.
That they always look forward to spirit day to see what P will have on. And that she has such great spirit!
I am so happy. What a wonderful thing to stop worrying about her heading down the wrong path. YAY!
These stories are so interesting because it's like looking into the minds and cultures of a time that is literally mind blowing. And it was such a short time ago in years. It's so interesting to me. And yes, I see the tragedy and the injustice, but also the beauty in the minds and customs of these people who were forced into slavery. I am fascinated and humbled by their resiliancy, and defiance, if even only in the privacy of their minds (at that time).
This reminds me of a program on PBS that I watched part of last night, about Charles Shultz, author of Peanuts. Granted, not the same sort of "pressure 2 look for peace inward" at all, but a similar result. It seemed that Schultz lived through his car2n characters.
Thanks for the link, 2long. One pic was from all the way over in Iran. It must really be way up there to be seen all over like that... must be really bright too, eh?
The article said it may or may not develop a tail.
Well I am doing really good. I married a really great guy, what can I say? Thank God, I learned about LB's, DJ's and all that other good stuff, or believe me he would never have married me.
He has just sold one house, the other and his office building are under contract and waiting for closing and he is frantically try to decide what to haul down to GA and what to get rid of. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> He's got an attachment problem with stuff, so he is kind of not handling that aspect of it very well, IMO. LOL
Then he is coming up here for Thanksgiving, and we are trying to make arrangements to take P to DisneyWorld for Christmas. He'll leave for Savannah right after and I will follow in a couple of months.
I am very happy, SS. I try to avoid this place most of the time. Not because I can't handle the pain, but because I grow weary of the overall nastiness and intolerance to other peoples beliefs, ideas, thoughts and opinions. It actually hurts me to know that we have come so little. Otherwise I am usually in a place of great peace. I find it unnerving that I get kudos when I respond in anger but nothing when I respond in a loving matter. I wish I could get my point accross in a loving manner, instead of having to resort to that angry manner. This really bothers me about myself.
And the whole victim mentality that is so big here drives me insane.
Life is magnificent. Oh SS, sometimes now when I am out and about I look at the faces of the people/strangers and I see their beauty and I wish I could show it to THEM. I wish I could show them how wonderful life is supposed to be. I wish I could lift them up.
It truly is all about perception. A miracle is simply a change in perception.
Life is magnificent. Oh SS, sometimes now when I am out and about I look at the faces of the people/strangers and I see their beauty and I wish I could show it to THEM. I wish I could show them how wonderful life is supposed to be. I wish I could lift them up.
Sounds like you've got it down. It is so wonderful to read you these days. Uplifting Happy
Hard to explain with words....... but it's good.
I understand about avoiding this place. I am often gone for a week or more at a time. I think 2long often thinks along the same lines.
I have noticed that you haven't been around much. You never did seem to get caught up in the drama or the negativity. What I never did figure out though, is if you just avoid those types of threads altogether, or if you read but don't allow yourself to get caught up in them.
I have never heard you say one negative thing, or respond in anger. Never.
Sometimes it seems to me that Gray might want this old campfire to die now. He is hardly ever here anymore either.
Maybe it is time. I would like to think that it's time to put the campfire out when Gray is living in joy again. Either with or without a new woman to love. Maybe he already is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Seems like every one else is, at least everyone I can think of who have been here all this time.
I find it unnerving that I get kudos when I respond in anger but nothing when I respond in a loving matter. I wish I could get my point accross in a loving manner, instead of having to resort to that angry manner. This really bothers me about myself.
I think this is because most people are "drama-based". Like the evening news - where's the drama in reporting about something someone did because it was their responsibility? Or even if it wasn't? Like GB, when he helped the elderly person rebuild their porch or whatever?
Just know that we are aware, acknowledge, and most definitely appreciate the loving care you put in2 your posts.
It's a good place for me to come and see how my friends are doing.
Gray has mentioned a time or two why he no longer lets his feelings hang out here. Healing is a very individual thing. You came along really fast the last little while. I think Gray was stuck thinking about forgiveness, but I don't know where he is now. Time seems to be helping him, but he doesn't post enough for me (or us) to get a good feel for how he is. I think he may be most comfortable with that.
I try not to get caught up in the anger and negativity because it hurts too much. If I stay in it, I have to become hardened to avoid the pain. Once that happens, I can't respond to help the way I would like to. Sometimes I read the threads, and I ask myself if I could help any, or if it would be a waste of everyone's time. So sometimes I catch the mood early on, and avoid them altogether.
This may sound crude, but someone once told me: Don't get down in the mud, and wrestle with a pig, because the pig likes it."
I am sure you understand the nuances in that quote.
I really enjoy discussions with people who show respect for others, and think carefully about what is said before responding. Maybe that is why I enjoy this thread so much. Mutual respect goes a long way.
I do have a temper...... my W can tell you that. It doesn't surface much these days though. I am still working on how to communicate in such a way that others know you are serious, and that a change must be made, but they still don't feel blasted, attacked, or hated. It's difficult. I used to get loud, but now I get quiet, and talk with a low voice.
Do you ever get the feeling that English is not our native language? It's really hard to find the words sometimes.
My grandmother would have liked you. She used to say "Isn't it wonderful to live!!" This was after Grandpa was already gone, and she was alone. I know she was lonely, but she was thankful too. It was hard to visit, and not come away happier.
It's funny, speaking of getting sucked in2 the drama, and how I don't post much these days...
I went through a recent spell of posting on loveshack, which is one of those sites with a board for OW/OM 2 post 2. Even there, they get some hard-liners trying 2 get them 2 see the errors of their ways. But there are also many who simply share their experiences as waywards. It's been a long time since I even went there, though.
But I was participating on a thread on the infidelity board that was posted by an OW, who then had the moderator move it 2 the OW/OM board after I'd posted. So, rather than get in2 an argument over there, I asked the moderators 2 delete my posts, which he did (users can't delete their own posts after a period of time, but the mods can delete or edit them at any time)...
A week or 2 ago, another OW 2k issue with something I said about her position, which was posted on someone else's thread - a BW, as I recall. She went away after a day or so, and then a few days later I got a popup telling me that my post would take a day or 2 2 show up, pending moderator review. I thought, Huh? And then I noticed there were several reports about me. I read the complaints, re-read those posts, and decided 2 leave LS for good. I hadn't said anything harsher than I've said here, and frankly a lot less so.
Since the warning messages and holds on my post came from the forum owner, I clicked on his bio 2 see where he might be coming from. ...he's a realtor, or something else entirely relationship-unrelated. For Rice Cake!
Anyway, sorry for the long-winded post here. Like SS, I feel like this is a safe place 2 come and talk about things that are important 2 me and that are "deeper" and thus more rewarding 2 the soul than telescope making, unmanned spaceflight, or antique car restoration, where I get my other, shallower ENs met (but even there, it's possible 2 have silly arguments).
So, I hope gc doesn't mind us stoking the fire from time 2 time.
I've felt a fundamental change in me in the past month, 2. With few exceptions, I don't even open many threads anymore. It's not even just that I don't want 2 be sucked back in2 the drama. I don't, but that's not all. I think I'm starting 2 feel what Pep said 2 me in an email when she was saying goodbye here. I just don't think I have much infidelity "help" in me anymore.
Do you ever get the feeling that English is not our native language? It's really hard to find the words sometimes.
Every single day of my life.
When I think of my own Grandmother, I know exactly what you mean about yours. You with a temper is almost impossible to imagine. And I don't think I would want to see it, either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I can't imagine 2longs posts getting edited, or deleted. That's almost hysterical, if it wasn't so sad.
I can think of hundreds of positive things to talk about instead of infidelity. What a splendid idea! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I have some ideas 2long, about what you said in a post about you are interested in spirituality. Any interest we have is said to be that thing of interest wanting expression.
You once asked what a soul was, I said I thought it was the part of us that is our mind. Now I think it might be our connection to the divine, and perhaps our individualized expression of the divine.
I know we are all connected to something. I can no longer look at God as I once did, but I know that that is the connection. You called God the Law, I am going to call God the Divine.
And that's where I am with that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
SS, what I want to thank you for is being who you are. If it wasn't for you, I would have a certain disdain and maybe even hatred for Christianity now, from this board mostly. You make that impossible. Thank you for that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I can't imagine 2longs posts getting edited, or deleted. That's almost hysterical, if it wasn't so sad.
I think my response 2 the owner started with something like: "Good LORD! Are you kidding me?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
But I never got a reply, so I don't know. Nor do I care. I'm pretty sure someone decided 2 report me for something I said 2 them, but I'm not even really sure who that was. Nor do I care. I really hate censorship, though, so I left.
Weaver, I was about 2 say "you sound like a Christian Scientist!" but decided not 2. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
There are a lot of parallels in the things we say from our various and sundry religious backgrounds, and I believe it's because there is something real, something substantial, behind those common themes we express in our own particular, sometimes cryptic, ways. And it's true whether we're religious and spiri2al, or not religious but spiri2al.
It really doesn't matter 2 me whether we're created by God, or whether we created God over the course of our spiri2al evolution as a species.
Life truly is wonderful, particularly when we allow it.
But it can also be horrible, but only if we make it.
Weaver - that is so wonderful about your daughter. Just lightens your load somewhat.
Just so you all know - I'm not a native of the campfire but it exudes warmth, love, friendship and peace. You are all such interesting souls. Love reading here.
JOB 7:11 "Therefore I will not keep silent; I will speak out in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
ISA 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you.
1TH 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
HEB 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Weaver! That is wonderful about P, though not surprising considering who her mom is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
So nice to hear you so happy. Hi SS! Gray, I hope you are well. Hi 2long, FAR and anyone else that is camping these days. Anyone that talks to Appy say "hi" from me.
I am well. My kids are doing great. Weaver, my DD is doing great this year. Her freshman year and she is keeping up with her load which includes several honors classes, in fact an A in biology.
I am well. My kids are doing great. Weaver, my DD is doing great this year. Her freshman year and she is keeping up with her load which includes several honors classes, in fact an A in biology.
I'm happy for her, and for you. Aren't you glad we have daughters? I can't imagine a world without little girls. Well you are blessed with a son as well, but I don't know what that is like.
I personally can't wait for the grandbabies. I just want to hold a baby in my arms again. You can't very well ask some stranger on the street if you can hold their baby for awhile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Do you remember when both our daughters were having a hard time? P's dad at one point pulled her out of cheerleading over her grades and I was so mad I took him to court. He told me last weekend that he has worked less with P on her school work this year than he ever has in the past (two little ones, full hands) and she has done extraordinarily well. She has it in her head she wants to be in the FBI, and I had taken her over to customs and we gathered lots of info on the various depts and what the requirements are...so I think that was part of her leverage.
Cinders You're getting way too deep for me now with the differences between the soul and the spirit. Yikes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
2long, I tried to read a book on Christian Scientists once and couldn't understand it. I finally decided it must be for scientists and trashed it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
TT, I always wished you posted more here. We are kind of like soul sisters, I think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Amazing Weaver! My DD talks on and off about wanting to be an FBI agent or some sort of detective. Maybe too much "Without A Trace" or "Law and Order" episodes LOL. Yep, I barely help with homework this year. Her work ethic has greatly improved and her overall attitude is just wonderful. I am so impressed with her, while so many girls are chasing boys or wearing skimpy clothing she is following her faith.
This conversation is just crying out for me to join in, so here I am!
Firstly Cinders, you know I always come last on the Trivia quiz whenever it's about religion. Waaaay too deep for me but if you ever find the answer, I'd love to know.
Weaver & Faith, if I can just share the stage for a moment as a proud mum. My eldest achieved 4A* and 5A grades for her GCSEs. She scored 100% on one paper. Her school is a high achieving environment and she fits right in. Next week she'll receive an award for her excellent results and I have actually booked two seats for the ceremony because her dad will come too. He missed out two years ago when she got a similar award because she didn't want him there (nor did I). This week I found out her best friend since age 8 dropped out of school. I know how easy it would have been for Liv to be dragged down with her (she smokes, sluts and does drugs) but she has kept out of her way the past year and I am so thankful. L did dye her hair black and she did pierce her ear at the top, both things I'm not thrilled about, but in the big scheme of things, so far I've been a lucky lady. Tonight she volunteered to clean out cages at the vets. She's a good girl.
Incidentally, my daughter has spoken about becoming a CSI! Wonder where she got that idea.
Wow you guys, we just rock! Oh, and our kids rock too. They're rockettes, chips off the ole block.
I am so thankful that these girls have high profile job, ethical, smart, powerful role models on TV. The best thing about girls aspiring for a position with the Feds is that when they look at the requirements they can easily see that they really have to be achievers. When we were young girls remember who our role models were? Bewitched, That Girl, Mary Tyler Moore, I Dream of Jeanie, PettyCoat Junction... it's a miracle I ever got a job at all. I'm surprised I didn't spend the last twenty years trying to twitch my nose to get the house cleaned and dinner on the stove. LOL
I am so glad our kids are doing well. I know Appy's son will turn back around and find his place, too. I keep thinking of him and sending positive vibes his way.
Woo hoo, TT! That is fabulous! Well Weaver MTM and That Girl had jobs and Mary did NOT need a man in her life, LOL. Heck I am still trying to twitch my house clean. Darn!
I didn't know about Appy having trouble with his son. I will pray for him.
I just got all warm and fuzzy remembering I Dream of Jeanie. I really loved that program. If all the above sounds a bit like bragging, well, the twins give me a major reality check. They are so different. One has dyslexia but tries so hard and the other just can't be bothered. We have a real mixed bag to deal with.
Well that makes it interesting TT. Really must stretch your creativity. LOL
Appy wasn't having trouble with his son, I think they have a great R, but he was worried about his lack of enthusiasm since the trauma with his mom. I think.
How about Mary Ann on Gilligans Island? What was her skill, other than being in love with the Prof. Heck Ginger had an acting skill.
And the Flying Nun was pure fantasy, too.
My role model was a healer who lived in the woods and healed the animals. Kind of a beautiful witch.
MTM and a job, but she was in a subservient role as a secretary or assistant, or something like that.
I can't think of any doctors or scientists or anything even close, as women on TV when we were growing up.
If you were lucky enough to be able to sing or become a movie star, there were role models in those industries, but that seemed so far away too me, I never would have aspired to become one.
I remember when Heart first came out, and the sister who played guitar but didn't sing...it was like Wow, a female musician in a rock band who doesn't sing. Too cool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Well I guess we did have the occasional school teacher or nurse, but that pretty much is all I can think of.
2long, I tried to read a book on Christian Scientists once and couldn't understand it. I finally decided it must be for scientists and trashed it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
weaver, believe me, I tried 2 read the books 2. And the more I tried and the more I grew up, and especially as I became a real scientist, the less I could understand it either! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Well, not that many years ago, it was Amanda Pays in her role on "Max Headroom". Wow, what a plate!
Before that, way back, it was Heather Menzies in the TV series "Logan's Run." S2pid version of the movie, which was a so-so version of the book, which was a goofy story 2 begin with. Funny, I don't have the same tastes I had back then. I wonder what I was thinking! (OT: imdb shows a remake of the movie in production)
And even before that, it was Jill Townsend in "Cimmaron Strip".
Before that, it was Debbie in my 4th grade class in Ohio. She was one of the girls I had a crush on that was so hopeless that I almost never said anything 2 her!
And the first was Nancy... Ah, lovely Nancy! I can't even remember her last name or what she looked like. In first grade, I used 2 catch butterflies for her out on the playground. ...some of them, I even told her about and GAVE 2 her!
2long, we are not talking about childhood crushes, we are talking about female role models on TV. Boys! Geesh.
But since you brought it up.
Kindergarten...little black boy who had the brightest, easiest smile I ever laid eyes on.
Third grade...little geeky looking boy with coke bottle glasses in my church youth group.
Seventh grade...DONNY OSMOND all the way.
High School...Steven Tyler, from Aerosmith, the absolute love of my life who kept me company many a grounded to my bedroom nights. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> He was like this artistic, sexy, animalistic creature. I still get goose bumps just...oh never mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I very rarely got crushes, imaginary or otherwis. Unlike my daughter. Wow, she is doing well, but she still likes the boys a little too much for a mothers comfort.
I crack up whenever I see Steve Tyler in an interview or music video.
When I was "young" (making the assumption, of course, that I ever was!), I hated hard rock music - preferred what was later called "avant garde" (like King Crimson! YEAH!).
Over the years, though, I've come appreciate it more, even if I don't necessarily seek it out. And I've come 2 appreciate Tyler more. (I just made myself laugh, thinking of ways 2 phrase that 2 still say the same thing, but include "mary" or "merry" in front of Tyler somehow...)
Anyway, I find him very interesting as a person. Loved the Video they did 25 years or so ago with Run DMC of "Walk this way". Brilliant!
But he still looks really, really funny 2 me. Even more so than Mick Jagger. ...how the heck did he manage 2 produce Liv?
bu,t if I were a man it would have been Sophia Loren. Now that is one gorgeous woman. "Houseboat" with Bogie? Summer Vacation with Jimmy Stewart. I think that is what it was called. She is still beautiful, and very much the Italian wife.
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Anyway, I find him very interesting as a person. Loved the Video they did 25 years or so ago with Run DMC of "Walk this way". Brilliant!
Now you're talkin' 2long! Liv is absolutely the female version of Steven. Can't you see it?
If only I could have gotten back-stage passes I would have married that guy. LOL especially after he gave up drugs, and became a one woman man. Oh Yes!
Weaver, I still love Donny Osmond, it wasn't just "Puppy Love" for me. He is still gorgeous, he's funny, faithful and he loves purple. What more could a girl want? He was definitely the pick of the bunch.
I still like Donny, too. I like Marie and all the others as well. I lived in Utah, close to where the Osmonds did, when I was in Junior High. My parents took us to see them once, and mom made me this cute little purple hot-pants outfit to wear for the occasion. I remember going into Ogden and picking out the pattern and the material. We were all so excited. I'll never forget it.
Okay, I have just one more (the guys started it SS) and I refrained yesterday because his name can never be mentioned on this thread so I won't say it....but two songs he did live at Red Rocks "All Along the Watch Tower" and "Jimmy Thing" - Oh my God!! Goosebumps, each and every time.
A piece of music done with such passion can make my heart soar. Where hearing it makes you feel like you've died and gone to heaven. That's what music does to me, or a big sincere smile, or a voice that resonates with love, conviction and passion. I don't know, it's not about lust, it's about for a moment being taken outside of yourself and really feeling that gratitude or appreciation.
There was a young female artist down in Savannah (big art school there) that had painted the most beautiful pictures you can ever imagine. When you looked at her paintings you really thought you were there, in the most incredible places that she painted, entirely from her imagination. I don't know how she did it, anymore than I know how musicians, or writers or actors do it. It's got to come through them from somewhere else.
Because I think if it came from them, it could just have easily come from any of us. I know that I love music more than the average guy, but I can't play the piano without sheet music and a great deal of labor and practice. And then even still, it's not the same as what they can do.
99 on Get Smart, the more I watch the old episodes the more I love her character. Smart, strong and willing to overlook how incompetant her man is LOL
David Cassidy was a crush for me way back when. Funny story, my sister a few years ago saw Donny in "Joseph and the technicolor Dreamcoat" and she said all the middle aged women were screaming "Donny"!
Funny story, my sister a few years ago saw Donny in "Joseph and the technicolor Dreamcoat" and she said all the middle aged women were screaming "Donny"!
My female role model when I was a kid was Madam Curie. I was big into ready biographies and autobiographies. Too bad I am lousy at math! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
One of the largest impact basins on Venus was named after Marie Curie. [edit: looks like it wasn't accepted. There is a "Marie" crater, but it's not the one I remembered. Venus craters were given female first names only.]
Also, the "engineering model" of the Sojourner rover that flew 2 Mars in 1997 was(is) named Marie Curie. We were going 2 fly it on the 2001 lander, but that mission was canceled and subsequently "reborn" as the Phoenix lander with a different payload. Phoenix will reach Mars next spring.
Hey 2long, I understand there will be a pretty unique relationship for Mars and the Moon (a full Yule Moon) on the 23rd and 24th. They are going to hang out together all night.
And Mars will be only 55 million miles from earth on the 24th.
Yes, I did. I listened to the samples on Amazon and ordered it. It has a song on there about my town...of course I got it! I wonder why nobody around here has it. wierd. Oh and there is a song on there about the town my DD is living in with her Dad. I haven't been able to listen to the whole songs yet, though. So am really looking forward to getting it.
Oh, and that reminds me I have to go find Krusht about that Plant/Kraus CD, I read he got it as a gift.
I can't stand the first song on that CD for even three seconds but oh my gosh the second one gives me chills. Alison has got to have the most beautifully angelic voice in the world.
And then that one called "Through the Night, Through the Morning' Wow. It would dig down, find and purge the tears of the most driest eyes.
The last song, "The Long Journey Home" really made me cry because it is a funeral song, and it is the only Blue Grass song on the CD, but man oh man, is it pretty.
Thanks Gray, for the suggestion of the Great Lakes State CD. And thanks for bumping this thread Chrisner, it was almost like seeing a lanturn in the window through the snow at the end of long & lonely journey... Well no, that's kind of melodramatic and stretching it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, but the campfire feels good, still.
I lived In Ypsi for a year while I was in grad school (Ann Arbor the rest of the time), so I feel included. Golly, that was a thousand years ago already.
I keep winding "Romulus" (track 9) back to the start.
I didn't know you went to U of M. My brother got his doctorate there, and my niece her Masters. Big school. My brother flies in as a guest teacher every once in awhile.
Where I went to school, we actually had teachers in the classroom with us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Ypsi, gross!
I'm looking forward to getting the CD. I want my DD to give one to her Dad as a gift. He'll be tickled pink.
I lived downtown. They'd just shut down some mental hospital and the streets were full of crackheads and the mentally ill. Really though it wasn't so bad. Fun in a way. Things were improving in the SE in those days... though I remember thinking Inkster was awful nasty.
I lived downtown. They'd just shut down some mental hospital and the streets were full of crackheads and the mentally ill. Really though it wasn't so bad. Fun in a way.
Kind of like the boards recently...
Okay, sorry. That was harsh.
I just got through my company's annual antique car show. Got 2 load up my laptop with some unfinished work and get the Model A put 2 bed before it rains, or gets dark.
I love campfires, especially this one. Thanks to all of you for helping make 2007 a good year for me.
Greetings to everyone, I hope you have a good 2008. May your hearts be healed of all that ails them. May your minds be clear and calm, and your lives be enriched.
SS
PS - And thanks 2long for the burma shave jingle - I have always loved them.
FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director TO: All Employees DATE: December 1st RE: Christmas Party
I'm happy to inform you that the company Christmas Party will take place on December 23, starting at noon in the private function room at the Grill House. There will be a cash bar and plenty of drinks! We'll have a small band playing traditional carols...feel free to sing along. And don't be surprised if our CEO shows up dressed as Santa Claus! A Christmas tree will be lit at 1:00pm. Exchange of gifts among employees can be done at that time; however, no gift should be over $10.00 to make the giving of gifts easy for everyone's pockets. This gathering is only for employees! Our CEO will make a special announcement at that time!
Merry Christmas to you and your family, Patty
FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director TO: All Employees DATE: December 2nd RE: Holiday P arty
In no way was yesterday's memo intended to exclude our Jewish employees. We recognize that Chanukah is an important holiday, which often coincides with Christmas, though unfortunately not this year. However, from now on we're calling it our " Holiday Party". The same policy applies to any other employees who are not Christians or those still celebrating Reconciliation Day. There will be no Christmas tree present. No Christmas carols sung. We will have other types of music for your enjoyment.
Happy Holidays to you and your family, Patty
FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director TO: All Employees DATE: December 3rd RE: Holiday Party
Regarding the note I received from a member of Alcoholics Anonymous requesting a non-drinking table ... you didn't sign your name. I'm happy to accommodate this request, but if I put a sign on a table that reads, 'AA Only'; you wouldn't be anonymous anymore. How am I supposed to handle this? Somebody? Forget about the gifts exchange, no gifts exchange are allowed since the union members feel that $10.00 is too much money and executives believe $10.00 is a little chintzy.
NO GIFTS EXCHANGE WILL BE ALLOWED!
Best W ishes Patty
FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director To: All Employees DATE: December 4th RE: Holiday Party
What a diverse group we are! I had no idea that December 20 begins the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which forbids eating and drinking during daylight hours. There goes the party! Seriously, we can appreciate how a luncheon at this time of year does not accommodate our Muslim employee's beliefs. Perhaps the Grill House can hold off on serving your meal until the end of the party- or else package everything for you to take it home in little foil doggy baggy. Will that work? Meanwhile, I've arranged for members of Weight Watchers to sit farthest from the d essert buffet and pregnant women will get the table closest to the restrooms. Gays are allowed to sit with each other. Lesbians do not have to sit with Gay men, each will have their own table. Yes, there will be flower arrangement for the Gay men's table. To the person asking permission to cross dress, no cross-dressing allowed though. We will have booster seats for short people. Low-fat food will be available for those on a diet. We cannot control the salt used in the food. We suggest those with high blood pressure to taste first. There will be fresh fruits as dessert for Diabetics, the restaurant cannot supply "No Sugar" desserts.
Sorry! Did I miss anything?!?!? Patty
FROM: Patty Lewis, Human Resources Director TO: All #%*^+#@* Employees DATE: December 5th RE: The #%*^+#@* Holiday Party
Vegetarian #%*^+#@* I've had it with you people!!! We're going to keep this party at the Grill House whether you like it or not, so you can sit quietly at the table furthest from the 'grill of death' as you so quaintly put it, and you'll get your #%*^+#@* salad bar, including organic tomatoes. But you know, tomatoes have feelings, too. They scream when you slice them. I've heard them scream. I'm hearing them scream right NOW! I hope you all have a rotten holiday!
Drive drunk and die, The b* from Party Planning hayull !!!!!!!!
FROM: Joan Bishop, Acting Human Resources Director DATE: December 6th RE: Patty Lewis and Holiday Party
I'm sure I speak for all of us in wishing Patty Lewis a speedy recovery and I'll continue to forward your cards to the asylum for her. In the meantime, management has decided to cancel our Holiday Party and give everyone the afternoon of the 23rd off with full pay.
I am wandering by on purpose by to wish all of you a very merry Christmas.
I had some trouble logging in though. I have a new computer (the bruiser that brought it to me called it a laptop, but it’s bigger and heavier than the computer I built from scratch when I was in grad school all those lifetimes ago.) Management tired of my complaining the old one was too slow for all the crunching I do, I guess. But now none of my old passwords and setups work.
I am fine. Like old 2, I seem to do better when I moderate my time on infidelity forums, more often than not.
Anyway, enjoy the season! I miss all you guys, sometimes. But things are very busy and moving right along for us.
Hiya FL. I'm great, thanks for asking. I was reading your vent thread a few days back and meant to write something but other people did better and then you pulled yourself back up so quickly.
hey look at that, fan the flames a little and people come around. cool
SS, who you talking about???
GC, i'm glad you are doing great <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
i'm doing ok, working part time now and that has done wonders for my stress level!!! we have our moments but we really do communicate better. so the moments don't last long and we work it out. it seems like the more pro-active i get at addressing something, the more he does too.
there is one larger issue that is brewing. i may post more over in the recovery board, the the smiles/trials thread. i'm not sure if you ever read there.
Well the fire has been out for quite a while around here. I saw SS post and wanted to say hi. Hope everyone is well. Surprisingly my M is going quite well these days.
Thanks Faithful, I still wonder how it goes for you.
It is good to see you helping, you are good at it.
Of course, I wonder how your vacations have worked out too. It is so wonderful to hear you say that it is going well. I was worried that your H wouldn't get it......... he had so much to loose if he didn't.
It has taken a long time, SS but he is getting it more and more. Long A's beget long recovery times unfortunately.
DD is fabulous! 15 and doing well in school. She is an amazing young woman.
DS has struggled with his health for about 5 months now. It is disheartening and frustrating to see him struggle so. He has been in the hospital 3 times since October, the last time early this month. Most of our time and effort goes to caring for him lately. I don't see vacations in our schedule until he gets into good health. We have at least one surgery upcoming for him that we hope will make a difference. Through it all he is a trooper. He truly is my hero this little guy.
Our twins turn 15 in a few months. It is so fun to watch them....... I think they are much more than they sometimes think they are. It's fun to teach them their potential.
Glad your DD is doing well. I understand about your son. There are times when we just have to do the work. Life is what it is...... and we adjust to it.
I guess you won't be in my neighborhood this spring then, so we will cancel the plans to have you all over for dinner. Be looking to the future though......... and hoping.
Our twins turn 15 in a few months. It is so fun to watch them....... I think they are much more than they sometimes think they are. It's fun to teach them their potential.
Glad your DD is doing well. I understand about your son. There are times when we just have to do the work. Life is what it is...... and we adjust to it.
I guess you won't be in my neighborhood this spring then, so we will cancel the plans to have you all over for dinner. Be looking to the future though......... and hoping.
SS
Wow! Your twins are turning 15? You have TWO potential drivers in the house? EEK! I still have hope to make that trip some day. I know my family would love it. Hope the date nights are still going well.
Last weekend we drove about an hour to stay in a little house my parents own in a small mountain town. We had a wonderful time.
I still recommend you get away with your H a couple of times a year. I know it's terrible to try to arrange, especially with the problems your DS has, but it's so good for the marriage.
Sometimes we go camping, just the two of us. It costs us gas money, and eating out money, but that's the only expense. Of course, we have family close, and the twins are getting to where they don't need much watching, so it's easier for us these days.
We have traded with friends too - "we'll watch yours, if you'll watch ours." When we did that, we set up the dates months in advance, and kept in touch about it.
There is just something magical about walking along, holding hands. It doesn't seem to matter if it's along the beach, or in the woods............
If you keep in touch with Kimmy, tell her hi for us.
I am good. Still employed and making more $ than before Dv plus I am interning to get my license as therapist. My W is finishing up her degree in business and probably we will plan to make baby after she is done with it . I might visit Orchid this summer after RollerSkating National. BTW: I need to update my 2 D skating picture. They are at Junior World Class level now.
I am thinking of joining local MB resource network. You look at your local M therapist and I could bet with you none of them using MB !.
How about you ?. How is M ?. We are still counting our blessing each day .
So glad you are doing well. Surprisingly the M is coming along. Slowly but he continues to change for the better. I wish you all the success in the world with your new career!
Gray, I think about you from time to time, and wonder how you are. (How you REALLY are.) You sound good when you post, like you are happy, and well adjusted......... mostly. OK, you sound fine, but it seems like there is still a little piece of something missing. It it all in my head?
Faithful, I know you didn't comment about my comment about having your family over for dinner. I'll wait until you are making and talking about travel plans, and then invite you for real. Just don't take too long. Your DD will be grown all too soon.
Don't I know it! She babysat 3 kids on Saturday for several hours and did great. She is quite a blessing. I would love to be out your way. DS's health issues just don't seem to get better but worse. I pray for the chance to meet you and your W someday.
DS's health issues just don't seem to get better but worse.
This is not a fair question, and you don't have to answer, but what are the Dr's saying? Do you have high hope for him improving in the future, (even a little) or will it always be as it is now....... or worse?
Our DD's baby sit quite often too - usually the grand kids. They are good at it, and they enjoy it. I just hope they don't get burnt out with it. I keep telling them they don't have to do it if they don't want to, but they usually accept the responsibility.
DS's health issues just don't seem to get better but worse.
This is not a fair question, and you don't have to answer, but what are the Dr's saying? Do you have high hope for him improving in the future, (even a little) or will it always be as it is now....... or worse?
Our DD's baby sit quite often too - usually the grand kids. They are good at it, and they enjoy it. I just hope they don't get burnt out with it. I keep telling them they don't have to do it if they don't want to, but they usually accept the responsibility.
How are things between you and MIL these days?
Sorry, but Questions come to me, so I ask.
I have lots more, but I'll stop for now.
SS
It's ok, SS. I miss your perspective. I don't think anyone knows what will happen with DS. We are moving toward surgery to put a feeding tube in. Hopefully that will end some of the health issues (though it opens a new world of potential problems ). Much of the trouble has been his lungs. Some of it they think he is aspirating but this last go round was his asthma. Good thing for him God made him so cute cuz he gets by on his looks and goodness.
MIL and I are still not speaking. Part of it is me, I acknowledge that. It is hard for me to forgive when she continues contact with xOW. Plus she pretty much has become the next OW in my life. She ignores DD to pursue H. Very sick and hard for me to overcome. I asked H for his input on how to open the door a crack and then let her respond. He believes she will never give an inch but at least then I can say I tried, right? I have to get hold of my anger where all this is concerned. Just seeing her number on the phone sets me off. I think if she showed an inkling of care toward my children it would not be so bad.
No, not too much. I was thinking about anger, and forgiveness, and that's what prompted the question.
It's difficult to know if lack of forgiveness prompts the distance, or the instinct to protect your children. (Meaning it may be hard for YOU to know what your own motive is.)
I tend to trust the instincts of mothers who are trying very hard to do what is right. However, it worries me that even seeing her number can set you off. I would like to see you at the point where you are thinking of ways TO HELP HER. To me that would mean you are where you want to be with this.
I don't want you to get hurt, and I don't want your children to get hurt. I think you are wise to consider all the sides to the problem. I do not have a solution in mind......... and I hope you don't take this discussion as a condemnation of how you are handling things. I always hope a discussion might shed light on a solution.
I have often wondered how Jesus could say "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." It is easy to see when one reads the narrative, that he meant what he said. It is not so easy to bring ones self to feel the same.
Keep talking to H about it, and keep praying. When solutions are needed, God holds all the cards, and he never makes mistakes.
As far DS goes........ All of us have our own cross to bear. Sometimes we understand them, sometimes we do not. I have learned to trust God on this part of life. We just do the best we can, and find a way to be happy in spite of the troubles. I sincerely hope things can improve for him, but if not......... we can still find joy in the journey. I am glad he has you, because I suspect it makes all the difference in the world.
The day will come when he will be able to stand and walk. It may not come in this life, but it will come. God's promises are sure.
Yes, FF, spring skiing is why God made snow and inclined planes. I am sorry to read of DS’ health troubles. I’ll pray for him. I can’t imagine what you must go through.
SS, DS and I are pretty tight these days. He and I had a wonderful time in Greece and Italy all last summer, and I didn’t get on his nerves at all, lol. He is now a better skier than I. Well, he has more stamina and headlong fearlessness anyway. I can’t keep up with him. He starts his private pilot’s license next month. I’m getting current again too so we can fly together. It will be so cool. I am getting a new Harley, so DS gets the old one and we plan some summer road trips together. He’ll have his driver’s license by then. If he stays on the honor roll, that is.
FWW does not ski, but we do travel together. Spent most of a week together last month in AZ watching cactus league spring training games and playing golf with bigwigs. It was fun, combined with work.
Work is very exciting. Way lots to do and no time to do it. But it’s some of the most technically interesting stuff I have ever done, and I’m doing it with really smart people – we are breaking new state of the art ground here. I don’t even think of it as work.
I must limit my time on infidelity forums, though. Reading about adultery is a trigger for me. I tend to testiness for a while after I come here. I don’t watch much TV for the same reason. I suspect chronic extreme sensitivity to the shear idiocy of adultery is going to be with me for the rest of my life. I am still learning how to manage my condition, I guess.
The day will come when he will be able to stand and walk. It may not come in this life, but it will come. God's promises are sure.
It is that promise that keeps me going.
Yes, I strongly believe I am doing what is right to protect my children. However, I DO need to deal with my own issue of hurt and betrayal. I need to at least forgive her for throwing me and my kids under the bus for the OW and OC. Hard to do but necessary for my own good.
Appy, your life overall sounds really good. I am happy for you. Stay away from these places like GC does. Just pop in and let us know you are happy, ok?
Yeah, he "gets it" in most ways but I don't think he likes to do anything that requires effort. Not meaning to DJ there but it is what it is. He sees me getting down or pulling away and he will do the minimum to pull me back in. I am at a point that I don't care to put too much effort in, KWIM? My kids are happy. We live pretty peacefully under one roof but my hope for a happy M is slipping.
Yeah, he "gets it" in most ways but I don't think he likes to do anything that requires effort. Not meaning to DJ there but it is what it is. He sees me getting down or pulling away and he will do the minimum to pull me back in. I am at a point that I don't care to put too much effort in, KWIM? My kids are happy. We live pretty peacefully under one roof but my hope for a happy M is slipping.
Enjoy that dinner out!
Does this go in cycles? I think I understand what you are saying. I was lazy in the early years. One of the reasons I stay on MB is to remind me of what happens when a person gets lazy. I still get her flowers for no reason - but sometimes I go a few weeks not thinking about it, and I have to wake up, and get with it.
Any way, back to the question about it going in cycles. There are times we still do things that drive the other nuts, or hurts the other. Less often, and less intense, but it still happens. I have worried for a long time about your last sentence. At least both of us try - even if we slip from time to time.
I am amazed at how well Dr Harley gets it........ all of it. Radical honesty keeps things from getting past the point of no return. Meeting needs, and avoiding Love Busters does create feelings of love, and closeness. We have to be willing to apply it, but it works. It helps me to be a little older, and have some experience behind me. I don't think I could have made it work had I read Harley's books when I was in my 20's.
I guess I want to encourage you. All of us have both good and bad parts to us. I am sure your H is the same. I know prayer helps, and example. Not that you should be a door mat, but my W was patient with me, and she turned the other cheek for a long time before I stepped up and did my part. I will be forever grateful for her patience.
With God, no good deed goes unpunished. (meaning.......... the blessings always come.)
When you get down, come talk as long as you want. I was teasing you about the invite for dinner, but only half teasing. Maybe we'll make it work sometime. My W and I have met many of our MB friends, and it has always been delightful.
Have a wonderful weekend. Get lots done, watch the magic that is children, and be glad your H has some good in him.
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I saw SS post and wanted to say hi. Hope everyone is well. Surprisingly my M is going quite well these days.
. I might visit Orchid this summer after RollerSkating National. BTW: I need to update my 2 D skating picture. They are at Junior World Class level now.
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