WS, OWN YOUR AFFAIR, STOP PLAYING THE VICTIM!!!

Time to own it, time to claim responsibility, time to hold yourself accountable!!!!!!

No more, I was manipulated.

No more, I was taken advantage of.

No more, I was lonely.

No more, I was mistreated.

No more, my needs were not being met.

Stop playing the victim!!!!!!!! Once you take responsibility for your choices you can move on to recovery. If you are still feeling justified, you can not move ahead.

I will NOT give OM any credit in my choice to have an A. It was my choice, he did not have a gun to my head, I'm smarter than his smooth talk, I'm smarter than his manipulation, he did not win me over. I chose it, because of who I was. Not because of who he was. Would I chose it again, not on your life!!!

I am owning my Affair. I am taking responsibility for it. It was ME, not my H's neglect, not OM, it was ME!!!!!!!!!!

I'm asking all other WS, to claim responsibility, to hold yourself accountable, to know that it was all YOU, and move on to working on you, to make sure this doesn't happen again. Find out why you chose to have an A, and improve on yourself.

Rebuild yourself and your M. Stand up and say,"I" made a mistake, I am sorry, and I will lead my life differently so I do not repeat history.

When you have taking control, when you have stopped pointing the finger, when you own it, you can then move on from it. I really feel this is a pivotal step to recovering a better you and a better Marriage.

Once I stopped being the victim of my H's past behavior, and of the OM's lure, I was able to really embrace my mistake, and work through it, and see me for who I was at the time. I was able to see how my character flaws played such a huge part in my choice to have this A.

I'm in no way saying be proud of what you did. Just in case somebody misunderstands me. I'm just saying, admit your failures, admit it was you and your choice alone, admit there is something about you, that needs to be improved.

No more victims, WS & FWS. It was a very bad choice we made, but it was our choice, stand up and claim it.

I had an Affair because of my character flaws, and I'm taking steps everyday to create a better me for myself and for my H, so our marriage can be blissful and affair proof.

BS, step aside and allow them to take full responsibilty for this. I know it is less painful to think OP had control, your S failed you, it is they who need to be held acountable.

Stepping down off my soapbox.

Recovered wife, KY

[ March 01, 2005, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Thank you, KY, for saying what you did.

C

Love this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARK

God....I wish my WH could have seen this a while back!

[ February 01, 2005, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: TreeReich* ]

Wow. Just wow.

Tough admissions. Bravo!

I can only imagine how much reading that and knowing that you feel that way has GOT to impress your H.

I don't know you very well and I am impressed.

-OAK

That was awesome! So much good stuff there for ALL of us to remember. Thank you!

You sound so confident and wise ky.Good for you! I like the way you are thinking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O

Pep, I should get a cape. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Charla, your welcome, I want to be heard, I want somebody to learn from it, I don't want it all to be for nothing. I want to save the one starfish.

ARK, I'm honored

Tree, sorry about the timing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OAK, I'm hoping to impress my H, I'm hoping he hears me and he will allow me to claim this instead of placing so much blame on himself and OM. Sadly it was me, I know that hurts him, but it was me. I want my H to hold me accountable.

Starman, I'm learning everyday.

OctoberGirl, WOW, confident, I like that, I think it comes in my size, right???

Thank you all for your post, KY

KY,

As a FWW I stand up and applaud you!

I am right there with you - once I stopped blamng my H for things in the marriage, stopped feeling used by the OM and realizing that no one forced me - that I did make a decision.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I will NOT give OM any credit in my choice to have an A. It was my choice, he did not have a gun to my head, I'm smarter than his smooth talk, I'm smarter than his manipulation, he did not win me over. I chose it, because of who I was. Not because of who he was. Would I chose it again, not on your life!!!<hr /></blockquote>BRAVO! I agree - who I was at that point is not who I am now, or let me rephrase that - not who I am becoming. But who I was at that point chose it. I was not a nice person. I had a major flaw that I could control in the past, but with the right circumstances I ALLOWED that flaw to take control of me and my life. I had lost direction in life. That person I was, chose things that who I am now would never choose. You surround yourself with people who are like you. At that time I surrounded myself with the OM because I was the same smooth talker, manipulator as he was. What an awful person I was, and what poor choices I made - yes - ones I made, not my husband and not the OM.

Since I have done this, it is so much easier to give my H the love and support he NEEDS and DESERVES now that I am out of my fog and my fog still including feeling like the victim.

It helps too to remember that you as the WS are asking your S to forgive you. So why play the victim and resent the S for things you feel they did before the A. You can't receive forgiveness unless you are willing to give it. So I do not blame my H for anything. I made my decision, it was wrong, it was poor and I am dealing with the concequences, but I do not harbor any resentment nor blame for anything pre-A. I have forgiven and forgotten and taken full responsibility.

I hope that made sense lol

Anyhow KY - fantastically well said.

[ March 01, 2005, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

You go girl!!! If only they would listen... <sigh>

Hey, Jelly -- If I gave you IB's e mail address could you put his and curly's names in the right places and knock him on his rump with this??? JK, but it was a cool thought when I read this. I just have to wait for him to come to this realization himself. Sigh. But I think I might be closer than I was 6 months ago, thanks to MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Stop playing the victim!!!!!!!! Once you take responsibility for your choices you can move on to recovery. If you are still feeling justified, you can not move ahead.

I love it!

Of course this idea goes for BS to some degree. I have to stop playing the victim role and change my own lot in life for my wife to find me attractive again.

I can here it now from my goreous wife...blah, blah, blah.

KY...So very, very proud of you. That sounds silly--but I am and so are many others. You have come such a long way.

To the "new" FWW's and WW's: Please read this. Read KY's former posts. This isn't an overnight sensation. This has been a transformation. Take note: KY needed to recover *herself* first before her marriage can recover. And if the BS is willing to accept the "new, improved and recovered FWS (aka RWS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )", look out world--they will be a force to be reckoned with!

ST: I hope you accept this as: "I'm ready for you to be my wife again. I'm ready to have an incredible marriage with you for the rest of our lives."

ST: I hope you accept this as: "I'm ready for you to be my wife again. I'm ready to have an incredible marriage with you for the rest of our lives."

EL: Same goes here baby.

deeplysorry, I found it took me longer to forgive my H for his past and present at the time behavior than it did him to forgive me for my A. I think this was so because, I was afraid of fully being held accountable. Had I forgiven him, I was no longer justified in my behavior. I really had to dig deep. My H is a wonderful man, I would have never guessed he would have came through for me like he did. I'm very pleasantly surprised.

Pep, didn't see it.

Momma's sad, it is one thing to listen and to hear it, but another thing to do it. I want them to take action, to actually sink their teeth into it. OWN IT!!!!

Starz, you are so patient and wise, if I could get thought to Curly or IB, I sure would for you.

Husband, playing the victim is not appealing and you are to be the most attractive person you can be for your S. I'm not sure if she is still a WW or not, but the stronger you are, the more in control you are, the more appealing you will be.

Liny Said, <blockquote>quote:<hr /> KY...So very, very proud of you. That sounds silly--but I am and so are many others. You have come such a long way.
<hr /></blockquote>Silly, nah, sounds pretty wonderful to me. You are old enough to be my dad, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I take it as a huge compliment. Thank you, Liny.

Ky, well put, I will leave at that as I wouldn't want it to go to your head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I would like to add this though, just as your H was able to forgive your A before you were able to forgive his past actions, I have found I have been able to forgive Mrs. E and her A long before she has been able to forgive herself.

Point being, I think the key to your post is use your ownership in the A to better yourself... while making sure it does not weigh you down.

Always remember IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!

KY: (preach on sister)..

All I can say is "Bravo" ...key <applause> track......

You sure do seem to be on a roll here ...{may it continue for you!} <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Truly, All of you newly titled, RWW's are giving me Hope for a better future.

I am now cutting and pasting this post to my own (_?_) WW at work.
[not sure how she see's herself]

May she get something out of your experiences!

Ya just never know "where" an epiphany may come from. Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hey Jelly - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

You're too cool!!!

[ March 01, 2005, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Jelly, I am sooo proud of you. You and Jen have brought me along to a point that maybe I am not quite a RWW (def. a FWW with a capitol F)but I am getting there. I won't feel like a R until my H forgives me. I told my H recently during one of our A talks that I own the A. I made the decision to cross that boundary. I allowed FOM into our lives. I betrayed his trust and hurt our M, our children and myself. I forgive myself and I accept God's forgiveness. I am working toward my H's forgiveness.

Love you, Jelly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hey there KY!

Your post is good food for thought.

I challenge the WS's that lurk/post here to read this thread and absorb it.

We live in a society where it's very easy to place blame on other people. People get away with murder because they had a horrible childhood. They sell drugs because it's easier than working. People milk our welfare system because it's better to stay at home and watch the soaps. Sometime long ago we as a nation went from the responsible to the irresponsible. We went from accepting the consequences of our actions to justifying them, regardless of right or wrong. Of course I am generalizing but it's something that I see more and more this day and age.

I never understood the whole "blame someone else" game. Like you Jelly, OM never held a gun to my head, it was my choice to cross that line. We live in a society where we have choices - remember, God gave us free will. It's not something that we can switch on and off.

I made a huge mistake, and when I realized that it was my mistake ALONE I was able to start moving towards recovery. My dear hubby let me take on that responsiblity and helped me shoulder it. He didn't let me wallow in my sorrow though thank goodness!

Yes, recovery can't begin until one accepts the responsiblity for their actions. But once they do - what a great learning experience recovery can be!

Edited for typo's - grrrr...

[ February 01, 2005, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: chackler ]

Oh well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sent a copy to her.

She doesn't get it (or doesn't take it in the spirit it was given) OR something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Guess things will be at least a bit "tense" around here tonight.

"Oh why do I even Bother???"
(can ya tell me?...and if its only for luv...what a dope I must Be)

However, I'm still Glad that at least YOU get it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (and some others too).

I'll take some consolation in that.

Keep making Progress.....sorry I can't join ya. sheesh

There was a thread a while back that asked BS's how much (if any) blame they laid on the OP. It was suprising to see how many BS's refuse to hold their WS 100% accountable. Perhaps there is some measure of spousal protection happening there.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I will NOT give OM any credit in my choice to have an A. <hr /></blockquote>For the WS to completely accept accountability and work through the consequences, the BS needs to get with the program too by allowing and supporting the WS's epiphany that they are 100% accountable for their choice to have an A.

KY,

yes, you are so right!

I'm with FF though, its very hard to not flinch at least a little bit when I read this. Not because its not true, but because of the huge pool of guilt and lack of self-respect that I've been struggling out of for many months now.
I think being stuck in the guilt and regret is actually also more self indulgence. I'm moving on, I'm going to be proactive about fixing my problems and building a bright future.

kyellow4,
This is a great thread. I am very proud of you for your ownership!

This really intrigues me as recently it dawned on me that maybe this is why H and I are not really in recovery. I have been tossing it around in my head...and came up with the fact that he has not forgiven himself for the A's (yes 3) and i'm not so sure I have forgiven him either.
I feel like he needs to forgive himself and ask my forgiveness before we can start. I know that I need that. If only I knew how to approach him about it. I honestly don't know how <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .

Pep said in a thread recently (I have it printed out) something about the BS and forgiving. She stated that the BS needs to know the whole story (or whatever they need) before they can forgive, otherwise the BS doesn't know what they are forgiving. That is so true.

And, it fits in with ownership. That is really the word I have been looking for in this. I kept saying to myself that H wasn't taking responsibility but couldn't really make sense of that. However, ownership is a great word for it. And I know he doesn't own it 100%. If he did I think he would be in IC, MC, anything to "fix" it. But, he's not. He tends to keep it all inside so as not to hurt anyone or himself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> anymore.

One more thing to think about while in limbo...wishing things were better than they are.

Thank you, ky

Ky:

Very awesome post lady!

Respect for ourselves guides our morals; respect for others guides our behavior.

FR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

KY (I feel funny writing those initials! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Great post. As a FWW (nearly RWW), it moved me. I must say that I played the victim, blaming the OW on the hurt that I felt. I owned it, partially, but focused on how much she hurt me. I couldn't even see past my own pain to realize the pain I put my H and children through, for a long, long time!

Now I definitely own the A. I know that *I* crossed that line with her, on my own accord. She didn't lure me into it. I didn't lure her either. We both were 100% each accountable. In my recovery I picked through my entire relationship with her, and I also tried to go back to my state of mind right before the A, so that I'll never make that mistake again. I tried to think of how I could have been so vulnerable, yet cocky enough to step over those boundaries!

Thanks for your post. I'm happy that you've come so far. It's inspirational. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

CC

Jelly, hon, you know you rock and you know you're the Queen.

Do you know (well, yes you probably do) how many "Yes, but's" I used after d-day and I've used on this board.

All the Yes, but family tragedy, yes but was in bad place, yes but blah blah blah.

The biggest yes but. I had unfinished business with the OM. Excuuuuse me, that's some sort of justification. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (BTW that was me talking to myself and being extremely sarcastic).

Every time I go to write something like that on MB I think, Rob had all the same yes buts I had but he would never have done what I did.

Your post is SO true it's frightening. The only accountability is mine and it's the thing I keep coming up against whenever I feel a "yes, but" coming on. It just doesn't add up and it doesn't add up because there are no "yes buts" there's only a choice I made.

Jen (RWW) yay.

[ February 01, 2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]

kyellow - wish I could convince my wife to read your post. I DID take responsibility for my affair, and have taken precautions to remove myself from any future possibilities (as best I can).

Thank you thank you thank you

David

Outstanding post.

No sentiment could be more helpfull to WS and BS alike simultaneously.

I think, reading this helps me to better understand your previous post re casting off the title.

Noodle

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by kyellow4:
 Time to own it, time to claim responsibility, time to hold yourself accountable!!!!!!

No more, I was manipulated.

No more, I was taken advantage of.

No more, I was lonely.

No more, I was mistreated.

No more, my needs were not being met.

Stop playing the victim!!!!!!!! Once you take responsibility for your choices you can move on to recovery. If you are still feeling justified, you can not move ahead.

I will NOT give OM any credit in my choice to have an A. It was my choice, he did not have a gun to my head, I'm smarter than his smooth talk, I'm smarter than his manipulation, he did not win me over. I chose it, because of who I was. Not because of who he was. Would I chose it again, not on your life!!!

I am owning my Affair. I am taking responsibility for it. It was ME, not my H's neglect, not OM, it was ME!!!!!!!!!!

I'm asking all other WS, to claim responsibility, to hold yourself accountable, to know that it was all YOU, and move on to working on you, to make sure this doesn't happen again. Find out why you chose to have an A, and improve on yourself.

Rebuild yourself and your M. Stand up and say,"I" made a mistake, I am sorry, and I will lead my life differently so I do not repeat history.

When you have taking control, when you have stopped pointing the finger, when you own it, you can then move on from it. I really feel this is a pivotal step to recovering a better you and a better Marriage.

Once I stopped being the victim of my H's past behavior, and of the OM's lure, I was able to really embrace my mistake, and work through it, and see me for who I was at the time. I was able to see how my character flaws played such a huge part in my choice to have this A.

I'm in no way saying be proud of what you did. Just in case somebody misunderstands me. I'm just saying, admit your failures, admit it was you and your choice alone, admit there is something about you, that needs to be improved.

No more victims, WS & FWS. It was a very bad choice we made, but it was our choice, stand up and claim it.

I had an Affair because of my character flaws, and I'm taking steps everyday to create a better me for myself and for my H, so our marriage can be blissful and affair proof.

BS, step aside and allow them to take full responsibilty for this. I know it is less painful to think OP had control, your S failed you, it is they who need to be held acountable.

Stepping down off my soapbox.

Recovered wife, KY <hr /></blockquote>I think we just found our postergirl for the recovered WS! kyellow4 I applaud you. It's a shame that other WS's don't see this and absorb it. I would venture a guess that if any WS were to read this while still in the fog it would have little impact on them.

Interesting - this post! Last night I remembered a certain look on WXW's from several months ago when she would momentarily peek out of the fog. She was justifying this & that, blaming me for this & that, and so on. I just stopped, walked over to her - grabbed her arms and said: "I am 50% responsible for the problems in our marriage. However; I have 0% responsibility for this affair. I did not and do not deserve what you are doing!" This happened about 3 times. Each time, her expression would show that she was about to cry. But instead she would dip back into the fog and become self-righteous again - where she remains today.

FR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Last night I heard from my WH that what he did he was sorry for -that he knows he deceived me - that he was wrong - he feels awful - he seems so down and sorry. I told him again I would never do that to you. I told him I am at fault for some of our problems. He responded no you are not I am 100% at fault. He hugged me and kissed me. Hoping this is true and going to see where it takes me.

Cowboy, It was much easier for my H to forgive me, than I myself, but I was in a pity party, once I stepped out of that mode, I could forgive myself.

Top Rope, thanks and truly sorry she is not ready yet.

Pep, okay, asked my 8yo, he filled me in, but I'm still going to wear a mask and tights. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

RIF, you too.

Faith, thank you, I'm here for you for anything.

Chackler said, <blockquote>quote:<hr />"People get away with murder because they had a horrible childhood."
<hr /></blockquote>Dang it, I forgot, this is all my mother's fault. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> j/k I'm still learning, and eagerly so, I really want to be the best I can be, for myself and for my H.

BA said, <blockquote>quote:<hr /> "For the WS to completely accept accountability and work through the consequences, the BS needs to get with the program too by allowing and supporting the WS's epiphany that they are 100% accountable for their choice to have an A."
<hr /></blockquote>I really feel this hinders the WS progress to recovery, when the BS protects themselves and the WS, by thinking the OP is at fault. Allow the WS to claim totally responsibility for their mistake, it isn't until then that they can truly face the consequences and improve. BS allow the justification by doing this. (not saying this is true for ALL cases)

Smur, this is very interesting to me, you said, <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Not because its not true, but because of the huge pool of guilt and lack of self-respect that I've been struggling out of for many months now. <hr /></blockquote>For me coming to this conclusion, has helped me gain self respect, I've become more respectable now that I'm holding myself accountable. Don't be afraid, embrace your mistake, take charge of it, own it, and recover.

MandL, print this out and read it with your H, maybe he can wrap his mind around it and you can move onto a full recovery. I have my fingers crossed for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maddy, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Fish, I think that is a great way to approach your W. It is truly hard to grasp but when she does, it will be wonderful for the both of you.

Kiwi, you have been a great source of inspiration to me.

ButterCup <blockquote>quote:<hr /> KY (I feel funny writing those initials! )
<hr /></blockquote>You could always call me Jelly, my friends do.

David, not sure of your sit. but glad you have claimed responsibility.

Noodle, I'm glad you understand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MIF, thank you kind sir. Thank you.

Realtor, happy dance, happy dance.

I don't ever want to make this same mistake again, I have morals, I'm a Godly woman, now I'm building my character so I can stand and say with confidence, I will never have an AFFAIR!!!!!

Thank you all for your post. I believe we have much to learn from each other. I'm very willing to give, I have received so much from all of you, I thank you for the free therapy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

KY

[ February 02, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: kyellow4 ]

Jelly,

I do get it....I understand what you're saying, and I am with you on it! I had quit blaming OM and RH a LONG time ago, which is what you're saying....stop placing blame where it doesn't belong.

Geez, I feel stupid! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

NOW

To be honest notonlywords I didn't get it either but then I started thinking about all the people that pass blame onto others - it's just all over the place. So sad, the WS's that do that have little to no chance of fully recovering. IMVHO of course!

Yeah, you get it. You mean I rambled all that in an email, and you get it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> UGH!!!!

I knew you would. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Love you, Jelly

Jelly,

UGH is right! Dang, I am dense. I am totally in "that place" you are in, and have been for quite some time....just misunderstood what you were saying here....not YOUR fault, though....I thought I was missing something, but I'm not. RH gave me his thoughts on the one e-mail and something he said made it click. Here I was, all upset that I maybe wasn't in "that place"....I was. I am. Thank God! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

NOW

NOW* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jelly, while there may be some element of self pity in Mrs. E's case I believe there is just as much what I would term self protection. None of us as humans like to feel pain. In my W's case she, with the help of OM self medicated herself to the point she was living in a world where there were no feelings and no consequences.

Once the reality of her actions and there consequences set in and she made the clear minded decision to rectify them, taking ownership in a word, the pain became almost unbearable.

Most are not really familiar with my story. Let it suffice to say that my W's was no "normal" A and the havoc she reeked was not your average run of the mill stuff.

I am not arguing your point, in fact I believe you are dead on. However, as a BS it was really an epipany to realize that I could find true forgiveness for my W but she has been unable to find it for herself. And this can be just as detrimental to R as anything outside of the A itself.

You see, as BS's many of us want to even the scales so to speak. We want our WS to feel as bad as they made us feel. I've seen many a BS on here say that they have forgiven there WS only to follow that up with a, but they need to pay reference wrapped in nice words. There again, lashing back regardless of the degree is human nature.

I just wanted the BS's that jump on here and read your posts to hear a little different take before they try to ram the ownership deal down their WS's throats.

Always remember IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!!

Cowboy said,

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> In my W's case she, with the help of OM self medicated herself to the point she was living in a world where there were no feelings and no consequences.
<hr /></blockquote>What I'm hearing is that she was influenced by drugs, so she can not be held fully accountable for her A, due to the drug influence????

If I'm hearing you correct, then... She could have walked away, she didn't have to take them, it was her choice to medicate. She chose that world, she made that decision. Don't allow OM to have any power over your situation.

It isn't pretty to realize the person you loved can do this to you, but she did it, now let her claim it. Don't stand in her way of accountability. If I'm wrong on thinking it was some kind of drug use I'm sorry. I'll correct it, if you like.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> However, as a BS it was really an epiphany to realize that I could find true forgiveness for my W but she has been unable to find it for herself. And this can be just as detrimental to R as anything outside of the A itself.
<hr /></blockquote>I believe one can not forgive themselves when they are still playing the victim, when you play the victim you feel you have been done wrong, you then have justification for your A. It isn't until you hold yourself fully accountable, that you can forgive yourself. If you are not accountable, how can you forgive? You only have guilt feelings because of the obvious damage and hurt you have inflicted on your loved one. You are just lost in the fact that you have sinned against God, and against your S, it seems to be for no reason. If you look deep within, and hold yourself accountable, the reasons behind your failure become obvious. Then you can forgive and make improvements on yourself, so this doesn't become a pattern of life but it becomes a mistake in your life.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> You see, as BS's many of us want to even the scales so to speak. We want our WS to feel as bad as they made us feel. I've seen many a BS on here say that they have forgiven there WS only to follow that up with a, but they need to pay reference wrapped in nice words. There again, lashing back regardless of the degree is human nature.
<hr /></blockquote>I can guarantee you the WS feels bad, I think their are some reptiles out there that might not, but for the most of the WS, they feel extremely bad. However, this is apples and oranges to me. The BS pain due to betrayal and the WS pain due to guilt, you just can't compare it, it is not the same pain.

I believe the BS who doesn't feel proper remorse and change of behavior are the ones who feel this way. They are the ones who are unable to forgive. You take a WS who is truly remorseful, who has a plan of action to change their ways and improve upon themselves, one who is willing to be an open book to their BS, and show me a BS who still feels they want the WS to feel bad. I believe all the bitter BS out there are do to the fact that their WS are not trying to recover. I have more faith in the human spirit than to just think people can not forgive.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I just wanted the BS's that jump on here and read your posts to hear a little different take before they try to ram the ownership deal down their WS's throats.
<hr /></blockquote>I don't think a BS can force a WS to be held accountable. However I do feel the BS can guide them in this direction by not placing blame on the OP. OP was only responsible for themselves. Your WS was responsible for their choice. I see where one would want to protect themselves and their spouse, I went through that, but I don't feel a full recover can happen until both spouses see it was solely the responsibility of the WS. I feel the BS hinders the WS recovery process by allowing themselves to blame the OP, your S, did this to you, the OP, played a very small part in it, the part of being used by your spouse.

Their is such a degree of guilt for the WS, it leads most into a depression type state, in order for them to break free of that they need to find out the Why's to their A. They need to hold themselves solely accountable, and make changes in their life.

I hope I understood your post, please keep in mind for the most part I am generalizing and not speaking specifically, of your Cowgirl.

Jelly

Kyellow4 said

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It isn't until you hold yourself fully accountable, that you can forgive yourself. If you are not accountable, how can you forgive? You only have guilt feelings because of the obvious damage and hurt you have inflicted on your loved one. You are just lost in the fact that you have sinned against God, and against your S, it seems to be for no reason. If you look deep within, and hold yourself accountable, the reasons behind your failure become obvious. Then you can forgive and make improvements on yourself, so this doesn't become a pattern of life but it becomes a mistake in your life. <hr /></blockquote>You said a moutful of truth right there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />You take a WS who is truly remorseful, who has a plan of action to change their ways and improve upon themselves, one who is willing to be an open book to their BS, and show me a BS who still feels they want the WS to feel bad. I believe all the bitter BS out there are do to the fact that their WS are not trying to recover. <hr /></blockquote>Again.....so true!

HOWEVER....some BS refuse to be accountable for their own choices in the marriage, choices that pushed their spouse further away. All they see is the A. That is most definitely NOT to be taken as putting blame on the BS for the A in any way. All I'm saying here is that a simple acknowledgement on the part of a BS that they understand they are ALSO flawed (we ALL are) and know there are things they can also do to improve the marriage, and not deny that it could have been them that had the A, would go a long way towards helping a FWS feel that it is ok to admit their faults and weaknesses. A lot of times, what you hear from a BS is "I could never have done such a horrible thing!" Well, the FWS is standing there thinking, "I never thought I would either...I must be a worse person than my BS" and that is SO not true, yet we buy it. So the FWS continues to put up the wall of self-protection because it does not seem that the BS has made themselves vulnerable by admitting they have flaws, too. It's a vicious circle.
I just know that when RH admitted things to me about himself, when I saw that he did NOT think he was better than me just because he didn't have an A, that is when I could take full responsibility for my choice. THAT is when I quit blaming him.

Hope this has made sense...it sort of seemed to me this was what Mr. E was getting at....but correct me if I'm wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NOW

<blockquote>quote:<hr />HOWEVER....some BS refuse to be accountable for their own choices in the marriage, choices that pushed their spouse further away. All they see is the A. That is most definitely NOT to be taken as putting blame on the BS for the A in any way. All I'm saying here is that a simple acknowledgement on the part of a BS that they understand they are ALSO flawed (we ALL are) and know there are things they can also do to improve the marriage <hr /></blockquote>I strongly believe in Plan A, and this is all apart of it.

My post was not about what the BS is doing or is not doing, it was about what I feel is essential for the WS to do in order to recover.

I will agree that I needed my H to hold himself accountable for his past behavior, I needed to forgive him for the state of our M and before I could do that, he needed to apologize, and feel remorse.

However I feel it is almost a separate issue. It was my growth as a person, my coming into self worth, that I needed him to be held accountable.

I needed to rise above myself, and hold myself accountable, regardless of my H's behavior. It was about building my character, and having self respect. For the first time in my life, I stood alone, I was not leaning or hiding, on anybody, I held myself accountable, it was my decision, and my wrong to make right.

Jelly

Beautifully said, NOW* Hope this has made sense...it sort of seemed to me this was what Mr. E was getting at....but correct me if I'm wrong.

Jelly,

Yes, you are right....regardless of whether or not the BS admits to faults, the WS has to do this.
Absolutely!!

What I see sometimes is stubbornness on the part of both partners....nobody wants to "go first", if you know what I mean! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Suppose the FWS does that soul-searching and admits fully rsponsibility, but the BS does not respond....why do they not respond? That is so sad to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I am very fortunate that RH "got it" so quickly.

Love ya!

NOW

In other words, some BS are now playing the victim of their WS affair. What to do?

[ March 01, 2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Me too, feels good.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
KY

<blockquote>quote:<hr />From NOW:
Suppose the FWS does that soul-searching and admits fully rsponsibility, but the BS does not respond....why do they not respond?
<hr /></blockquote>One of the obstacles is:
Just as almost all persons in prison "claim" innocence.....almost all WS at some point in the process claim they Get It.

But as evidenced (even here) thousands of times over.....many are still being just as deceptive and actually Don't "get it" and are only "saying" what they believe will help them in the short (possibly long) term.

The major challenge for the BS is to figure out if our OWN WS is one of the former or one of the latter.
VERY tough.....as they almost ALL "sound" alike.

In addition, (to make it even more difficult) there is the matter of the WS that cried "wolf".

Yes, they "say" things,
they make promises.....tell of their epiphanies and all their soul searching.....and it turns out to be lies.

(Now here comes the Really Sad Part):

EVENTUALLY.....they do "Get It"....they see the light (and such).....

aahhhhhhhh.......but the damage is Done......they have already Destroyed their Own CREDIBILITY ......hence No One Believes them (that they do see their mistakes and that they are taking ownership in them).

Most BS (or at least the ones here) are a very 2nd/3rd (more) chance kind of folks.
But heck, even the best have our their own Breaking point.

Too many times that attitude is seen and exploited as a "weakness", rather then as the gift it truly IS. Sad but true.

However, if they (WS) truly are a better person (in the end).......well, individual improvement is "something" (& a Huge something).........even if the marriage is over (or at least never what it could/should have been).

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I needed to rise above myself, and hold myself accountable, regardless of my H's behavior. It was about building my character, and having self respect.<hr /></blockquote>I think this is the way out of the issue. I can see where NOW and FF are coming from, because I also felt that way before - that I did truly 'get it', that I accepted full responsibility, that I acted on that and made changes to myself.
But, there was a part of me that was still fixated on H, as in, can't he see how far I've come and how much I've changed?? Why still so angry and blaming me for everything?

Now, I think the only way out is to make the changes and accept the responsibility because it is the right thing to do. Definitely not to get any particular response from your S. There are some people who may never be able to forgive. I hope my H is not one of those, but he may be. I want to become a better person for me, and thats all I can control.

[ February 03, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: smur ]

I said "yes, but..." which is the same as "however."

There ARE no yes buts and howevers. The choice to have an A is the choice of the WS alone.

There are NO justifications.

Jen

[ March 01, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Now, I think the only way out is to make the changes and accept the responsibility because it is the right thing to do. Definitely not to get any particular response from your S. There are some people who may never be able to forgive. I hope my H is not one of those, but he may be. I want to become a better person for me, and thats all I can control. Now you get "it", Smur. Took me a long time and I admit I still have the rare moments of saying to my H, but can't you see the changes in me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So, question:

Is my husband's opinion of me any of my business?

NOW

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by notonlywords*:
 So, question:

Is my husband's opinion of me any of my business?

NOW <hr /></blockquote>What a wonderful question.

KiwiJ said
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I said "yes, but..." which is the same as "however."

There ARE no yes buts and howevers. The choice to have an A is the choice of the WS alone.

There are NO justifications.
<hr /></blockquote>I totally agree. Just want to clarify that what I am talking about is recovery. Recovery can't be all one- sided. The state the marriage is/was/will be in is the responsibility of both partners, regardless of whether or not there was an A.

NOW

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Is my husband's opinion of me any of my business? <hr /></blockquote>I thought so. But wasn't sure what you were asking this morning. My opinion of you right now is higher than that of myself. Due I think to my insecurities. Due to us having passed through the written portion of my plan or maybe just my general lack of direction. ?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Recovery can't be all one- sided. <hr /></blockquote>So true. And I am thankful that you've joined me in this journey. Together we will conquer this adventure. So many spouses on here never have the opportunity to recover their marriage, at best some can hope to recover themselves and improve themselves and become aware or what they need and can provide for any future relationships.

Good thread, it's been one that I've had to sift through my mind several times to get my mind around it totally.

[ March 01, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Jelly, while I think we are pretty much saying the same thing I know because it is you and I we could point counter point forever and I'm telling you you are preaching to the choir but I would like to try to clarify a couple of things.

Keep in mind I am not smart enough to pull a portion of your post over to this one so I'm going from memory and I am and idiot ya know.

Okay 1st you said that you were generalizing but this can only be partly true, you see all of us can only talk from our place in this world. You are talking from the RWS pulpit. You are in a great place right now and I am sooooo happy for you but you have a different vantage point than I.

Like you I can only talk from my place in the sun. I am the FBS, and perhaps overly protective H of Mrs. E. She may have done wrong but I always was and always will be her strongest supporter!

Just as you can not see an A through my eyes I can not see them through yours. We are not seeing different things were are seeing them from different perspectives.

Mrs. E does take full responsibility the A and her actions during it. That IS why there is so much pain for her. Yes there were drugs involved pills and alcohol. Yes she could have just said no but she did not. She does not blame OM it is just one more thing she has to feel remorse for.

You said that if a WS were to be and open book and work to make changes to avoid a recurrence that would lead to getting to that happy place you are at. Or something like that, anyway I can tell you from personal experience that those things do not equal removal of pain and guilt. Perhaps I missed your point here but that's what I got from it. Mrs. E and I work daily to A proof our M. If she were anymore open I could see her insides but that does not take away the things she has done or the pain she feels from them, in fact it serves to expose them and that uglyness is painfull.

You said that trying to compair the pain of a BS to that of a WS was apples to oranges. Of course that is true BUT and you see that is a big but... pain is pain. Let me give you an analogy; Mrs. E and I had a son that died when he was 2 weeks old. Many a well intentioned friend told me "well at least he was only two weeks old, sure was a good thing it wasn't your older son that would be really bad". Now I can only speak from someone that lost a 2 week old son because that is my experience but I could give you a laundry list of reasons why it was worse to lose one so young. The truth is pain can not be measured just as love can not. When it's all cut and dried my friend it doesn't matter why you hurt only that you do.

Lastly in our case Mrs. E went from being the perfect wife/mother/daughter/business owner/you name it, to a drug riddled, physically abused, business failure, that had abonded her H and kids. That's a lot for anyone to get your arms around. In her case she got sucked into a world she knew nothing about and got trapped. Is that her fault? YOU BET IT IS! Does admitting that make it better. Not for her. Can I forgive her. Much to my surprise yes I can and have. However, even more to my surprise she has not been able to forgive herself and I'm telling you, for a BS that was a real revelation. In fact it is that very ownership you talked about that makes it so hard for her to find self forgivness. I'll give you another analogy. I was just the opposite of Mrs. E, opposites attract don't ya know, I was the typical rebel without a case most of my life. I might honestly have been the worst son that has ever lived. I treated my father like crap. Now days thanks to Mrs. E I've settled down and I now see the error in my ways but I still beat myself up everytime I think of my father and I dang sure know it wasn't his fault I was a horrible son. You see I can be a better son but I can't take aways what I did.

Jelly, if you've read down this far, what you have to understand is that to a BS what you are saying is music to our ears. Heck yes we want it to be ALL our S's fault. And I could not agree with you more on the ownership and accountability fronts, I think that is one of the biggest problems in our society today, everything is always someone else's faulty but I can guarantee you that more than one BS out there, especially someone that is not in R yet would like to print out your post run to their WS and say SEE!!!!! I assure you that's what I would have in the beginning and that will not work.

Jelly as you said most all WS's feel remorse/guilt what have you. However, since we all show these things in different ways we as BS's do not always get that and thus we end up throwing the A and the pain it caused in the WS's face in an effort to even those scales. What was truly a revealation to me is that in my case Mrs. E had already taken responsiblity for that pain and all I was doing was throwing salt in an open wound which of course caused her to pull away. Once again in my case and I would guess in most that is not going to lead you down the path to R.

Being intellectually lazy as I am I'm tired of this post so here it comes unedited. Hope I got my points across.

bump---for hubby hopefully!

Bump

MOST excellent thread!

Thanx for starting it Kyellow and thanx for bumping up Kiwi.

I have noticed that it's often the FORMER WS's who post here who will call the (still floundering in fog land) WS's on failing to take responsibility.

I think this is an excellent discussion, and I'm glad its still around for all to read.

I just wanted to add one more thought.

I think that its necessary to come to this realisation in recovery, but it can be from either direction.
What I mean is, understanding exactly where my reponsibility begins and ends has sometimes been difficult for me in the past. I sometimes took on the issues of my loved ones, tried to help and felt responsible, or alternatively, guilty, if I couldn't help. Ironically this sometimes made me less able to really help them, because their problems could appear overwhelming to me.

After dday, I had to understand that there were things I couldn't help H with, and trust that he would fix them himself if and when he was ready. As much as I might have wanted to fix everything on my own, since it was my fault, it wasn't going to work.

I take responsibility for everything that I've done, and I will keep working to make permanent changes to improve myself. No more, no less.

bumping

just bumpin' again

WoW...

sending my fww this one...

Hi Smur,

My thoughts on responsibility...

IMO I tried far too long to help my WH realize he had some problems and to get help for them.

But now I realize that as long as he can find somebody (anybody) to believe him and to sympathize with him, and as long as he does not feel 'in love' with me, he doesn't really have any motive to change.

While my WH, his family, his friends, and his OW du jour, all believe I am totally to blame (for him having 7 + affairs during our marriage?!?!?) I KNOW that my WH would have committed adultery no matter who he was married to. HE has a serial adultery problem - once the divorce is final it is no longer my concern.

At times I wished I was more to blame, because then I could have had some ability to fix it!

But it's his problem.

And as hard as it is to face, the reality is that he doesn't love me, or even our daughters, enough to fix it.

So he will lose me, and to a great extent his duahgters, because he chooses to protect the false image of himself that he has built up and projected to his 'supporters' and admirers.

I once asked the family counselor why he doesn't understand and appreciate that WE (me and my daughters) are really the only ones who know him and still love him in spite of his flaws. She said he doesn't WANT anyone to know him. For him the goal is to con people into admiring what he pretends to be.

I can't imagine the amount of self-loathing and fear he must have deep inside. He's like one of those foster kids who tries really hard to hurt and disappoint the people who want to adopt him, because he's convinced they eventually will reject him (so why not reject them first?)

I still wish I could help him but he doesn't want to be helped. And trying to help him has only caused immense damage to me and my daughters so far. It's just sad that nobody in his own family knows and loves him enough to confront him! But that's partly because they have the same issues he has...

Anyway, I just wanted to say (rambling over LOL) that it IS sad to realize that there's nothing you can do to help somebody who is getting so much 'help' in staying stuck. All we can do is find and fix the parts we broke, offer to help others with their share of the fixing, and then just accept what they do with their part of the responsibility.

[ February 28, 2005, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]

bump

And I want to add that IMO a BIG part of taking responsibility is for the adulterers to admit they did what they did because they enjoyed it.

At the time they didn't care who they were hurting - they were being selfish.

They weren't conned by a cad, so tragically deprived that they simply HAD TO get their needs met no matter what, immensely naive, taken advantage of... blah-blah-blah

They were just shamefully selfish.

bump

bumping

Bump for TA- Andrew.

I'm hoping this can help you hold your W accountable, help you see, why maybe she chose an A.

I really believe it is about ones character flaws that leads them to chose such a cowards way out of their reality.

KY

^bump^

^bump^ for newbies

Gosh Ky
any chance you could knock my WH off his LALA land trip. I know they have to do it themselves but I sometime is someone anyone but me would just stand up to him ans say buddy u are messing up big time and you need to take this mess on your self instead of blaming your wife it would make a real difference. But alas no one will they [censored] foot around him and just tell him they disapprove. I think he needs a good blasting but hey he don't listen to me so i just quit talking to him.

i've gotten alot out of reading this thread. many of the comments have helped me better understand my situation.

thanks!!

Quote

playing the victim is not appealing and you are to be the most attractive person you can be for your S. I'm not sure if she is still a WW or not, but the stronger you are, the more in control you are, the more appealing you will be.

hmmmmm. is this what i'm doing without meaning to? i really don't know if this is how it comes across.

Quote

some BS refuse to be accountable for their own choices in the marriage, choices that pushed their spouse further away. All they see is the A. That is most definitely NOT to be taken as putting blame on the BS for the A in any way. All I'm saying here is that a simple acknowledgement on the part of a BS that they understand they are ALSO flawed (we ALL are) and know there are things they can also do to improve the marriage, and not deny that it could have been them that had the A, would go a long way towards helping a FWS feel that it is ok to admit their faults and weaknesses.

i've done this. i have come to understand what emotional needs i was not meeting for my husband and realized that i was using MANY love busters.

I have made changes-still have far to go!

Quote

"For the WS to completely accept accountability and work through the consequences, the BS needs to get with the program too by allowing and supporting the WS's epiphany that they are 100% accountable for their choice to have an A."

Allow the WS to claim totally responsibility for their mistake, it isn't until then that they can truly face the consequences and improve.

maybe this is something that upsets my husband so much and keeps him from being able to heal while with me. that i keep saying all of this is 50% my fault. i have to understand that even thought i was not meeting his needs-he SHOULD HAVE TOLD ME and GIVEN US A CHANCETO WORK IT OUT. he should not have made the choice he did. although i understand how he felt-i do not feel his choice was in anyway right or in anyway my fault...

well that's where i need to be right? it really wasn't my fault-i still loved him. i still honored all of our vows, he could have talked to me-we could have gotten through our problems.

Quote

However, as a BS it was really an epiphany to realize that I could find true forgiveness for my W but she has been unable to find it for herself. And this can be just as detrimental to R as anything outside of the A itself.

this is soooo true in my case. i've forgiven him and am ready to move on using the things i've learned from our mistakes to have a better relationship and he's not even forgiven himself because he's till having the affair...

oh my gosh...no wonder we are so far apart in where we think we should be right now!!!

Quote

I believe one can not forgive themselves when they are still playing the victim, when you play the victim you feel you have been done wrong, you then have justification for your A. It isn't until you hold yourself fully accountable, that you can forgive yourself. If you are not accountable, how can you forgive? You only have guilt feelings because of the obvious damage and hurt you have inflicted on your loved one. You are just lost in the fact that you have sinned against God, and against your S, it seems to be for no reason. If you look deep within, and hold yourself accountable, the reasons behind your failure become obvious. Then you can forgive and make improvements on yourself, so this doesn't become a pattern of life but it becomes a mistake in your life.

this seems very true...he still blames ME for HIS CHOICES...

he said it himself "he knows i was sick but he can't forgive me because when i was depressed i wasn't there for him and that he feels i checked out of this marriage long before he did"

so if i'm undestanding this

he CAN'T forgive himself until he ends the affair and accepts the blame for his choices instead of blaming me

and he can't accept my forgiveness until he does

am i getting this?

Wow - old memories - i was only a month or so out of D-day when I posted to this..amazing the changes that have taken place since then.

Thanks to Jelly for inspiring me to make the changes I have continued to make along my journey! I hope all is well with you!

How did you get to this point? my ww still can't admit that she was wrong. Everything is my fault. I am a good husband. faithful, loving,caring, responsible.She took it all for granted and blames me because I was imperfect.I didn't give her the attention she deserved for several months while trying to figure out where I was heading career wise (nothing to do with my marriage). I was depressed and shut down for awhile. Instead of suporting me she turned to some loser, after 13 years of happiness. She has been seeing om for 7 weeks now. She claims to have broken it off, but I know better. She acts as if I am just a friend or something. She is a cake eater. she says she wants to stay married but does everything she can to push me out the door because she is too much of a coward to deal with herself.
Anyway, I am glad you have the guts to stand up[ and be honest. Can you please explain how you got to that point, because I am ready to give up on this woman.

^bump for SoSorryGreen^

thanks for bumping this faithful follower!

^bump for new WS^

thank you, thank you, thank you

I am printing this and giving it to my WH who has had MULTIPLE inappropriate relationships and affairs.

Although hs is remorseful he blames his behavior on two things that he was unhappy, which places a portion of the blame on me and that he is normal and most married men cheat in some way at some point in their marriage, which put the blame on society.

The MAIN reason that I have decided to move forward with divorce is due to the fact that he has failed to admit that HE has a serious problem, a seriously flawed value system, and didn't respect me, our marriage or our family enough to not do this behavior repeatedly.

If he can't see and admit that, then I am sending him away to go find the perfect woman who will keep him happy ALL of the time and will accept the fact that he is normal and will have occassional affairs.

Good luck buddy!

This bump was a bit serendipitus (did I spell that right?)

I sent this very thread to my WW when we began our first false recovery effort. Didn't work though. Not then.

And she still sends me emails blaming me ... for her behavior.

ILM2, I know exactly what your saying. No moral compass, no grasp of right and wrong. Just a "do whatever feels good right now and to heck with the wreckage left behind"
My STBX would say I shouldn't judge her. I don't feel judgemental saying cheating, lying and stealing are wrong.

Our only choice it to run away. Or have happen again to us. Because it wasn't our WS fault they cheated and lied. And they think they weren't really wrong to do it. If that doesn't scare the heck out of you...

.

up again

Ahhh I remember when jelly wrote this - i was a newer WS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It made me REALLy think about how i was approaching things....

Wouldn't it be nice if all WSs would read this and take it ot heart?

KY
Thank you for this thread.

They say that truth is eternal and judging by the number of times this thread has been read, replied to and bumped is evidence of it's genuine impact and importance. I am not a full fledged RWW yet but am getting there from FWW as quickly as I can with my best friend - my husband's help. I had fallen into the trap of hopelessness because I knew I couldn't change what I had done or apologize enough for the selfishness, the unthinkable immaturity, the RISK to our family that the affair accomplished.
Instead of being able to "take it" as our MC says, I would fall apart everytime he brought the A. up. Now I don't. I made the worst mistake of my life. I chose it. I was selfish and short-sighted. It is so hard to forgive myself for hurting so many people but I know that my forgiveness of myself is key to halting the impact the whole nightmare has had on our marriage.

I truly haven't blamed my husband but I listed lots of "factors" that contributed to my actions. The bottom line is I chose to have an affair. It was my choice. I broke my own heart as well as that of my husband. I had not cheated before but always had a weakness for attention. I realize that now, I didn't recognize it as a problem before. I am aware and take actions to guard myself now. I think that one of the most empowering aspects of taking responsibility is that I chose the affair. Just as that was a conscious choice, so is NOT EVER DOING IT AGAIN!

I often use a Rick DuFour analogy with my collegues in regard to problem solving... Look in the mirror instead of out of the window. There will always be opportunities to make problems and issues someone else's responsibility but when we do that, we disempower ourselves to change the future.

Excellent post, 2Mel. Your words are as compelling as KYellow's original ones.

When I first came here, I was a WW and a BS at the same time. I cannot remember at what point in my affair I first arrived here, but I think the PA had ended, but the EA was still going on (naively believed we could still be friends). I was hurting terribly. I was lost, entitled, betrayed, ashamed, confused--you name it, I felt it.

So, I stumbled upon ENs and thought,"A-ha! This explains everything. I was not getting ENs met, that is why I had an affair." Fortunately, Dorry found me and encouraged me to dig deeper, to really understand what got me here. And, I began my journey to recovery. But, we had the pain of both As and multiple D-days/recoveries to deal with. And, our "recovery" was not going well, so my defenses were still on high alert and I was not doing a heck of a lot of self-introspection. But, after my WH left, I was really able to get away from the constant pain of our problems to really take a hard look at myself.

What I discovered was that I was extremely codependent. I had spent my whole life looking outside of myself for validation and self-worth. So, when I was not getting that from my H, and believed he did not love me anymore, I was ripe for an affair. It was not about how I felt about OM, or not loving my H, it was about how I felt about myself when I was with OM. I needed all that I got from the affair for me to feel good about myself--but, it was an empty feeling because I also knew it was wrong and hated myself for being so weak. My affair was because I was weak and inadequate--I chose the easy path, not the right path.

I have spent my whole life seeking out love and attention from my relationships with men and usually had SF too early in order to get these things (it was no different with OM). So, whenever the initial high of being in love/getting ENs met wore off, I felt unhappy and dissatisfied in my relationships, but did not understand why. Now I do. I know now that I cannot look to others for my happiness. It is a completely unhealthy and unrealistic expectation to place on another person.

So, when I caught my WH cheating, I was back to the old codependent patterns. We had multiple D-days and false recoveries. I was so scared to trust, to risk being hurt, that I tried to control everything around me. It was like I was this big huge wound. I was dealing with the shame of what I had done and the pain of what he was doing. My whole focus was on us, not myself--the only thing I could change. I was terrified of losing him, yet my very actions were pushing him away (and, I am sure justifying his continuing A). It is really embaressing to look back and think about some of the things I did.

Now, I have come to understand all too well why I had my affair and why I put up with a "recovery" that really wasn't. I felt I did not deserve much since I was a FWW. And, was so desparate for love and validation that I accepted the crumbs I was getting from WH (did not know he was WH again until recently). That is no longer the case. I would like to recover my M, but I am happier than I have been in a long time and know I will be just fine--with or without my H.

I take ownership of my A. I did it. I knew it was wrong, but did it anyway because I was weak and flawed. No excuses.

I find it interesting how cutting to the chase and taking responsibility for my actions has been so healing. I wonder why looking to someone else for a magical fix to inner issues seemed like the answer. I have often said that nothing really worth doing is ever easy. Affairs are easy. No true accountability exists within them because they are based on lies. It felt like an escape but what it was really was a descent, a departure from myself. My husband knows the real me. Who I was was for those weeks was a selfish, immature escapist. I cheated myself and my family. It is good to look in the mirror now and see "me" again. That would have never happened if my H. hadn't been so strong and willing to pull me out of the descent as it was happening. The roller coaster of recovery has been the most difficult work either of us have ever done and there are still days that it seems like the ride won't stop. This work however IS worth doing. Besides total NC I believe taking the full responsibility for my choices has been the most important and the most accelerating move I could have taken toward recovery. For BS's do your WS a favor, be strong enough to stand up and say, this affair was YOUR choice - not mine. My husband did not beat me up but he did not try to further pollute our marriage by giving me excuses to justify or blame my actions on someone else. Exposing the affair, pulling me out of the fog and being kind while I came to my senses was the best thing he could have done. There is hope!

All FWW's that struggle with what the BS's need to here. Read this thread. KY & 2Mel you get it. It has been a leap foward in our recovery this past week to read these words, and once again hear the depth of wisdon from the woman I fell in love with and married.
Thanks KY & 2Mel

^up for HG

^^another bumpity bump^^

I am also a FWW and was wondering how your BS is dealing with your A!I am currently struggling with what the best thing to do is with mine!I keep working on myself but my H and I are separated and he dosen't seem to want to work on our M,and dosen't make any effort to call me!I feel like there might be someone else,but he says no!Today my IC told me to tell him I want to move back in even though I know he will tell me no!I don't want to push him,but I also don't want to let my pride get in the way and completely ignore him!